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Quoted for truth #21

Posted on July 02, 2013 by

Polly Toynbee in The Guardian, 2 July 2013:

“The only place to cement social change is in the hearts and minds of voters. Blair and Brown were defeatists, convinced Britain was essentially conservative, individualist, imbued with Thatcherism.

Confronted with the Mail, Sun, Times and Telegraph, the culture looked immutable, a force to be appeased. Not even when ordinary living standards plummeted as banks were bailed out did Labour seize the chance to make a stronger social democratic case.

Ideas matter. Had Labour changed the political climate (as Cameron briefly thought), this government could not dismantle the social state. But like tumbleweed, Labour policies put down no roots to anchor ideas of collective provision and social protection.”

In the full article, Toynbee rather glosses over some of Labour’s failings in power in her eagerness to present a rosy picture of 13 years in which inequality grew almost constantly. But the paragraphs above concisely and surgically extract the heart of the party’s betrayal of not only its own voters, but the whole concept of British democracy – and inadvertently also the reason why it won’t win the 2015 election.

The only mistake Toynbee makes is to imagine that it matters.

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67 to “Quoted for truth #21”

  1. Scaraben
    Ignored
    says:

    The only mistake Toynbee makes is to imagine that it matters.

     
    I am afraid that it might matter in the event of a Yes vote in the referendum. If Labour do win the next UK GE, it will probably be with a small majority and a substantial block of SLab MPs. In other words, the Slab MPs might tip the balance from a Tory/UKIP coalition to a Labour government. And I do not trust Labour to respect the Edinburgh Agreement in that situation.

  2. Juteman
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Scaraben.
    If the vote is Yes, there won’t be any Slab MP’s.

  3. Roddy Macdonald
    Ignored
    says:

    Fear not, Scaraben
    Milliband is unelectable in England (just not PM material) and as his attempt to out-swivel the swivel-eyed loons on the right merely alienate his core support in North England. A far more likely outcome in 2015 is a UKIP / Tory Coalition. The Lib-Dums having consigned themselves to history by getting in bed with the Tories.

  4. Roddy Macdonald
    Ignored
    says:

    Interesting point, Juteman. If we vote Yes, will we be invited to elect “one year” MPs to Westminster to take us through to indy in 2016? I suppose we will.

  5. Max
    Ignored
    says:

     
    We live in the digital age where the power of the media is continually being diluted.  

     
    We have had Facebook revolutions.  We have had Blackberry street riots.  Anyone caught telling porkies at online newspapers is very quickly shot down in flames. The Polly Toynbees of this world, paid political propagandists and apologists, are soon exposed for what shallow people they really are.

     
    There is substance to the digital age that the media are losing out to. What makes good TV or good newsprint doesn’t work anymore. We are not watching, listening and reading in the way expected 10-20 years ago. 
     
    People are realising that journalism is part of the political problem in the UK and not the solution.  Social Democracy may have died in Labour’s minds, but it certainly hasn’t died in Scotland. We don’t vote for our own benefit, we vote in the hope we are voting for the benefit of everybody. 

  6. Albert Herring
    Ignored
    says:

    to take us through to indy in 2016
     
    Why would we elect unionists to do that though?

  7. Juteman
    Ignored
    says:

    Can anyone see the English accepting foreigners deciding who governs them?
    They aren’t servile Scots.

  8. Rod Mac
    Ignored
    says:

    Albert Herring says:
    2 July, 2013 at 3:51 pm

    to take us through to indy in 2016 Why would we elect unionists to do that though?
     
    Exactly Albert in the event of a YES Vote it would be surprising if Scotland did not return every single constituency as SNP

  9. Rod Mac
    Ignored
    says:

    Another outcome of a YES Vote might be the dissolution of Westminster shortly after the vote .
    Thereby having a new parliament to face the new reality.
    This might be without Scottish MPs entirely and to negotiate on only the interests of RUK.
    That i think would result in a lot of UKIPPERs and other right wing fringe parties getting support in England to punish those pesky Scots

  10. Marker Post
    Ignored
    says:

    Just browsing the Record, sorry 🙁
     
    But interesting article on Labour MP James Maxton from 100 years ago:
     
    “Give us our parliament in Scotland. Set it up next year. We will start with no traditions. We will start with ideals … men and women will spend their whole energy, their whole brain power, their whole courage, and their whole soul, in making Scotland into a country in which we can take people from all nations of the earth and say: ‘This is our land, this is our Scotland, these are our people, these are our men, our works, our women and children: can you beat it?’   
     

  11. The Man in the Jar
    Ignored
    says:

    @Albert Herring
    The 2015 GE is a bit of a conundrum. In event of a Yes vote in 2014 will anyone bother to turn out to vote? If Scotland has any sense we should return as many SNP MPs as possible to aid in the negotiations for full independence. I would not trust any of the other parties in this matter. I’m convinced that they would give away the family silver their reward would be a pat on the head from their London masters. My main concern would be that it would be a drain on SNP resources at a critical time.

  12. Seasick Dave
    Ignored
    says:

    Marker Post
     
    Quote that for truth!
     
    If James was alive today…
     
     

  13. handclapping
    Ignored
    says:

    @TMITJ
    Not to worry, in the age of the smartphone all the SNP need is one with a bit of oratory to be leader, one with organizing ability to be whip and 57 “Z” listers to do what they’re told for a year. Sorted.

  14. Rev. Stuart Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    “But interesting article on Labour MP James Maxton from 100 years ago:”

    Very interesting implications of that piece and the one accompanying it. Working on something.

  15. The Man in the Jar
    Ignored
    says:

    @handclapping
    Not so sure that you are correct. We will need a decent negotiating team at Westminster. Whoever it is they will get a hard time. Can you imagine what the English MSM will make of all these uppity sweaty socks demanding what is rightfully Scotland’s? Imagine the outrage of some of them!

  16. Andy-B
    Ignored
    says:

    If I hear on the MSM that Vince Cable says “Independence could de-stablise”..one more time,I think I’ll throw up, Im sick of unionist media outlets browbeating me, are their no PRO  indy radio or news outlets whatsoever, anywhere in the universe, on a more intersting note though…scientists have discovered the date life on earth as we know it will end, it will be 1 Billion years fron now, when the earths temperature, rises to a point, that not enough Carbon Dioxide will remain to allow plants to exist, Im sure Vince Cable will still be banging on about independence de-stablising, plant life or some shit.

  17. handclapping
    Ignored
    says:

    Why on earth would Scotland be putting its negotiations in the hands of Westminster MPs? Was the Good Friday agreement done with Westminster MPs? Westminster MPs are a means of party finance and the PBI of party generals. They soon find themselves seduced by the power and privilege of the diving right of Westminster and the cream from the teats of the Mother of Parliaments while having no responsibilities to themselves, their constituents or their country. No negotiation with MPs. Leave it to our Parliament and civil servants.

  18. pmcrek
    Ignored
    says:

    The Man in the Jar
    Green and SSP too! 😉

  19. Seasick Dave
    Ignored
    says:

    ..life on earth as we know it will end, it will be 1 Billion years from now, when the earths temperature, rises to a point, that not enough Carbon Dioxide will remain to allow plants to exist.
     
    Johann Lamont commented, “Vote No to save ra plants. Under the separatists evil plans, aw they puir wee plants wid die.”
     

  20. Yesitis
    Ignored
    says:

    It would take more than just Labour being a political party in a new independent Scotland for me to trust them with anything. They will stop at nothing to cause instability and grief, whether we vote Yes or not next year.
    Expect the worst with Labour and anything else is a bonus.

  21. CameronB
    Ignored
    says:

    I still think that an audit of the BoE is essential, before the negotiations begin. How do we get around the BoE’s Royal Charter though?

  22. handclapping
    Ignored
    says:

    I’m not sure that the diving right is the correct footballing analogy but it should have been the Divine right of Westminster as it was assumed by them on cutting off Charlie 1’s head.

  23. Braco
    Ignored
    says:

    The Man in the Jar,
    After a YES vote in 2014, I really can’t see either the SNP Government in Holyrood or the ConDem Government in Westminster taking the risk of SLAB MPs holdind the balance of power after the 2015 UK General election. Especially as they would only be sitting for a single year.
     
    I would be willing to bet that Holyrood will pass a declaration of Independence (with the support of the Westminster Government) shortly before the 2015 election and negotiations will be concluded between Scotland and rUK as Independent countries.
     
    In my view Scotland will not take part in the 2015 rUK elections, as it would be in neither Government’s political interests to allow the Labour Party the opportunity that a possible election of 40 plus MPs during it, would present.

  24. Max
    Ignored
    says:

    Looks like Labour are attempting cut and run from Better Together campaign.
     
    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/red-clydesider-james-maxtons-vision-2017953
     
    Our Torcuil has even mentioned Labour and Devo-Max in the same sentence.

  25. Rod Mac
    Ignored
    says:

    When it comes to negotiations we should always remember .
    The reason the sun never set on the British Empire was because God could not trust the Brits in the dark

  26. Adrian B
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Braco,
     
    This is probably why SLAB oppose Independence.

  27. Max
    Ignored
    says:

    Johann Lamont’s speech to conference, March 2012, Dundee, “This debate, of course, will be filled with meaningless soundbites. Phrases without concepts. Indy Lite, Devo Max.”
     
    So Labour are now going to adopt an empty phrase, Devo Max as its own.

  28. Braco
    Ignored
    says:

    Adrian B,
     
    Spot on.
     
    Those that are sharp enough to see it. The rest are plain old fashioned careerists.

  29. big_al
    Ignored
    says:

    Off topic to this article but in relation to the HOC Defence Committee today that Rev has been tweeting about……..WTF has it got to do with them?? Why are they asking….
    How many fast jets u gonna have? 
    How many will you have in the army? 
    Would a Scot join the british army or yours?
    What ships u gonna use?
    Why do they need to know?
    All I took from that was, you’re too wee and can’t afford it. Ha Ha – stupid jocks
     
    Docherty…..what a sneering cunt
     
     

  30. Juteman
    Ignored
    says:

    Good point, big al!
    We sbould tell them to stop being so nosy. 🙂

  31. Scaraben
    Ignored
    says:

    About the 2015 GE.
     
    I would like to think that the UK government will move things along so quickly following a Yes vote that legislation can be put in place so that Scotland is represented at UK level by the Scottish Government, but I doubt if they will get their collective finger out enough for that to happen. I think it is far more likely that the GE will take place under the present constitutional arrangements, and my fear is that too many potential SNP voters will see the GE as irrelevant and not bother voting, or abstain because the believe that Scotland should not be taking part. There is therefore a risk that SLab might just return enough MPs to tip the balance from a Tory-led coalition to a Labour government. This situation, unlikely though it may be, could put independence at risk if it did happen.
     
    Maybe I am being a bit paranoid, or at least too cynical about Labour, but to avoid taking up too much space here I have posted a longer comment over on Quarantine, with some difficulty which seems to have resulted in it appearing twice.

  32. Murray McCallum
    Ignored
    says:

    big_al
    I watched some of the defense committee today. I found it very patronising but thought Keith Brown MSP was impressive and kept his cool and professionalism.
    Strange seeing a former marine and falklands vet being questioned on military matters by Docherty who seems to be a former telecoms consultant!?

  33. EphemeralDeception
    Ignored
    says:

    I think the first action of the rump UK government after a yes vote will be to replace all cabinet members from Scottish Constituencies.
    A new sec. of state for Scotland willl be named, maybe from an English Lib dem seat to keep the coalition going.
    Looking forward to the clear out of the House of Lords shortly after getting their P(eer)45! Should be a YES argument by the way.
     
     

  34. cirsium
    Ignored
    says:

    @marker post, 4.01
    regarding James Maxton’s speech on Home Rule, there was actually a section on Home Rule for Scotland in the Irish Home Rule bill of 1912.  The demand for home rule seems to have been widespread.  A Scottish bill for Home Rule was in its second reading when the outbreak of war in August 1914 shelved the project.  Sir Edward Grey, the Foreign Secretary, said at the beginning of the war “The lamps are going out all over Europe; we shall not see them lit again in our lifetime”.   Vote YES in 2014 and turn the lamps back on.

  35. big_al
    Ignored
    says:

    Murray
    I agree that Keith Brown kept himself very cool and calm in spite of the condescending and patronising tone from the ‘committee’
    It was the ‘we’re better than you’, ‘you really don’t know much about this defence malarkey do you’ tone that did me in.
    I lost it several times and I was watching on the laptop!! Had to switch it off in the end.

  36. Jiggsbro
    Ignored
    says:

    Looking forward to the clear out of the House of Lords shortly after getting their P(eer)45
     
    Will there be one? I suspect that most Scottish members will have English residences and will take up rUK citizenship with alacrity.

  37. Andy-B
    Ignored
    says:

    So Phil Hammond UK Defence Secretary, has indicated to Keith Brown MSP, and Minsiter of transport and infastructure, that removing Trident from Scotland could take more than a decade after independence, Hammond said it maybe possible to remove it sooner if enough money was thrown at it, paid for by whom I wonder, (source)
    BBC Radio Scotland..aka Joseph Goebbels propaganda machine.

  38. scottish_skier
    Ignored
    says:

    I’d hazard a guess that the first thing the Tories will do after a yes vote is pass legislation to end Scots MPs voting in Westminster. Likewise, no new laws passed in Westminster will apply in Scotland.

    They’ll then find themselves with a majority and pass the boundary changes law quick smart ahead of 2015.

    I don’t see the SNP objecting to this in current behind the scenes negotiations.

    If necessary, they’ll delay the GE due to the highly unusual circumstances to allow time for the boundary changes.

  39. Ian Mackay
    Ignored
    says:

    If Scotland votes Yes: the negotiating parties will be the Scottish Government and the Westminster Government. In negotiating the Independence Settlement both parties will want the best deal; Scotland in taking a share of debt, the rest of UK perhaps taking a fraction of oil revenue.
    Although the Scottish Government has suggested that 2016 would be a realistic time-scale for Scotland’s Independence, the 2015 Westminster General Election thus becomes a very real finishing post for those at Westminster.

    Why would Westminster want Scottish MPs in its mix when trying to negotiate terms favourable to itself and not to Scotland?
    Hence I see the 2015 Westminster General Election being held with one of these options:
    1. Independence already agreed by 2015 and the Westminster General Election being only rest of UK.
    2. Independence not agreed and emergency legislation passed extending life of that parliament till agreed.
    3. Independence not agreed and boundaries redefined in Scotland so that there will be 45 Scottish MPs (the Treaty of Union minimum guarantee to Scotland).
    4. Independence not agreed and no change to Scottish MP representation but legislation passed that prevents Scottish MPs from voting on rest of UK matters. Perhaps by 2015 we could already have most powers devolved to Holyrood, with only a few still to be resolved.
    I think option 1 is best. For Westminster it negates the whole mess of changing the legislation. For Scotland its in our interests for a quick settlement and prevents Westminster pillaging Scotland’s economy in its own interest (more than it does already! )

  40. Murray McCallum
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy-B
    Whatever the costs of quickly removing Trident are I trust the rent and safe storage charge Scotland will levy on rUK are twice as high.  There needs to be a stick and a carrot to encourage the owners of WMDs to get them off our land.

  41. TheGreatBaldo
    Ignored
    says:

    Ian Mackay says:
    2 July, 2013 at 6:16 pm

    If Scotland votes Yes: the negotiating parties will be the Scottish Government and the Westminster Government
     
    Aye that’s what going to happen……
     
    But I would prefer it though if it was Scottish and Westminister Parliaments…..we’ve got to have the agreement of ALL parties in BOTH parliaments rather than just those in power.

  42. Buster Bloggs
    Ignored
    says:

     
    OT, about 10 years ago I tried to setup an online chat radio station, got the web page up but couldn’t quite get the software to work properly for the radio station side of things. Technology has moved on since then, it’s maybe time for another blast but now for an online Scottish Independence chat radio station… thoughts
     

  43. IainGraysSubwayLament
    Ignored
    says:

    Reporting Scotland going hard on “Project Fear” with their tame journos going along with the scaremongering rubbish with gusto.

  44. EphemeralDeception
    Ignored
    says:

    @scottish_skier 5:57

     
    I don’t really disagree but I think the cabinet moves will come first due to collective responsibility of Cabinet to the UK State. Scottish Ministerds no longer represent the UK in any way, it would be a conflict of interest. So, either Scottish ministers freely resign on First day of business after the referendum or PM announces a reshuffle imo. 
     
    However I think legislation may be going through the UK parliament that may still impact Scotland until full independence, Taxes are still being sent South, so Scottish MPs should have a vote – maybe even a veto OR New legislation will just no longer be applicable to Scotland. Not easy to foresee.
    Getting a bit ahead of myself!!

  45. ianbrotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

     
    Toynbee’s been around long enough – as have a lot of us – to know that she’s writing with a forked quill. 
     
    The central premise of her observation appears to be that New Labour missed a trick by not pursuing more ‘social-democratic’ policies when it had the chance.
     
    Who is she trying to kid?
     
    At what point, in the past quarter-century, has Labour (‘New’ or otherwise) shown the slightest indication that it had any intention of pursuing ‘socialist’ aims?
     
    Please, someone, indicate any significant policy statement since, say, 1990, which would’ve led anyone to believe that ‘Labour’ wasn’t shifting rightward.
     
    It’s really fucking easy for professional wordsmiths to retrospectively cast themselves as unwitting bystanders – Toynbee’s been a major player for years because she’s very good at it. She also chooses (perhaps through modesty?) to ignore the fact that she belongs to the ‘immutable’ cultural force which forced Labour to cut its own balls off and send them to Rupert Murdoch. (Well, one – they sent the other to the Pentagon.)
     
    (Oh, sorry, just noticed she wrote this for the Guardian? Well, that’s alright then – I forgot, she’s a ‘radical’.)
     
    One of the main benefits we’ll get from independence is, please God, that we’ll see and hear far less of these soulless, self-serving hacks.

  46. Braco
    Ignored
    says:

    Ianbrotherhood,
    Amen!

  47. Rod Mac
    Ignored
    says:

    the day after a YES Vote will all the Scottish MPs of every Party have the principle to cross the House and sit with the SNP and accept Angus Robertson as the “leader” in the HOC?
    or will they look for a loophole even after a YES Vote?

  48. Andy-B
    Ignored
    says:

    @Murray McCallum
    “whatever the cost of quickly removing Trident
     
    I agree 100%..I think Westminster, will drag their heels, when it come to removing the WMD’s, spouting all manner of excuses, as to why the WMD’s cant be moved right away, as you say steep rent, but even this might not shift them, I advocate  decommissioning them, if they dont get their finger out in time, Imagine showing up at the scrap yard with Trident Missiles and placing them on the weighbridge, Err! how much a kilo did you say..

  49. Titler
    Ignored
    says:

    Hmm; I’m simply not as convinced as most here that there will be an easy to predict response to a Yes vote with regards to the former UK elections. The big question, which I’ve not seen any debate on at all, is where the English Right will break if Scotland votes Yes. They already hate David Cameron; will they blame him for losing the Union (and thus some of the prestige that goes with it) or will they see it as purifying the country from you lousy Scots leftists and thus double down with the easier electoral math and try and remove him later?

    I have no idea, as they don’t seem to be talking about it much either, at least with regards to 2014… but assuming Milliband and the current Labour party can’t win is rather ridiculous; The Tories couldn’t gain a majority last time, and all the polls so far have indicated consistently Labour will win the next election; were the Tory party to implode over 2014, or indeed any other issue, it’s hard to see how that would help them electorally.

    At the same time, a massive swing to the Tories in any new election could be read as a “Spite The Scots” vote; complicated by the fact that the media most likely to support a far-right reactionary vote may also support that interpretation, as it makes easy yellow journalism; The seeds for this have already been laid, the politics of hate against benefits and immigrants and even basic decency is already in full swing in the UK, and a vote for Yes could be seen as a vote for supporting the untermenschen of current debate; they want to become a nation of scroungers! But on the other hand, with the incoming government likely to be Labour, and perhaps not wanting to lose sales in an independent Scotland they may in turn be tempted to swing behind a more generous interpretation of events…

    How those two pressures shape out then will influence enormously how the time between 2014 and 2015 unfolds at Westminster. In theory, if Scotland votes for independence the Exchequer can just appoint all the Scots MPs to the Chiltern Hundreds, as has been done with mass Sinn Fein resignations, even though they personally refused to take it as it was a Crown position, they got it all the same… But if the Tory party implodes, a snap General election will have to be called all the same, and until legally Scotland actually is independent, someone would have to elected straight back again for those seats.

    So I think the natural reaction would be to just leave the Scots MPs in place; If the Tory party can stay in control until 2015, they’d have time to pass amending legislation, and make it more favourable to their own interests, just like they are destroying the NHS et all before they get booted out. I just don’t know if events will allow them to able to do it however. If not, all bets are off I think, just as it was in 2010 when it turned into a horse-trade stitch up session.

  50. AnneDon
    Ignored
    says:

    I seem to remember that Polly Toynbee wrote an article (I think before the 2005 election), saying that she would vote Labour “with a clothespeg over [her] nose”.

  51. scottish_skier
    Ignored
    says:

    The moment a Yes vote is announced, Scotland is defacto independent. Sovereignty is immediately transferred to Scotland through Holyrood under international law/precedent. The treaty of union is no more.

    The UK could no longer enforce new laws/legislation upon Scotland is it would cease to have any democratic mandate to do so. Ergo, there’s no reason for MPs from Scotland to be sitting in Westminster. That would be ludicrous. ‘Right, we’re off, but in the meantime we’re going to go on blocking bills affecting the rUK’. Just as ludicrous as ‘Scotland has voted to end the Union, we [Westminster] will now be putting a few new laws in place which will apply in Scotland’.

    Imagine that Labour won a landslide at a GE but the Tories just continued governing for a couple of years… That’s what in effect would be the case if Scots MPs kept on voting in Westminster post a Yes vote.

    Not only that, but jeez remove Scots MPs and the Tories have a majority (of 17 I believe from a quick check). I repeat that; a majority. That’s a gift from heaven for them. All of a sudden Nick Clegg will be in a really, really deep hole and Labour will be completely shafted (can be blamed for ending the union with Devo and not persuading Scotland to stay too). Roll on the boundary changes!

    Nope, Scots MPs will walk out of Westminster shortly following a Yes vote. Just about all of what will happen afterwards will have been pre-negotiated, with the following couple of years just being putting the plan into place.

    The idea that negotiations will happen after the referendum is nuts. That only happens when you’ve fought your way out with guns and tanks. Imagine if there were big disagreements; it could be hugely damaging for the economy/markets. Nope, it will all be largely agreed beforehand so the transition can be as smooth as possible.

    It’s a phoney war not because the real campaign has not started, but because the real campaign can’t start until negotiations are complete. At that point, the union is fecked because most of the scare stories vanish. Of course details of negotiations can’t be talked about until agreement has been reached, otherwise that would be a shitstorm in the making.

  52. dan huil
    Ignored
    says:

    I have a feeling the result of the Euro elections next year [and the continued rise of ukip in England?] will have a profound effect on the result of our referendum.

  53. Ian Mackay
    Ignored
    says:

    Scottish Skier:
    You make some interesting points. Would Scotland be de facto independent immediately after a Yes vote? Would it immediately end the Treaty of Union? Links please!!
    I can see your point about Scottish MPs voting on rest of UK matters. But I think legislation would still be required by Westminster to formally remove them. After all, the Westminster system only allows 2 resignations at a time through the Chiltern Hundreds and Northstead.
     

  54. scottish_skier
    Ignored
    says:

    @Ian Mackay
    Links? You could go searching for arguments against, arguments for but…

    Remember the Calman commission/Scotland Bill? That went all rather smoothly.

    Then there was the Edinburgh Agreement. All concluded with ease.

    Who is the real battle between in Scotland over independence? Is it Alex Salmond vs David Cameron? Is it Gideon vs Swinney? Are they head to head every day, debating on prime time?
    Are high ranking people in the current UK administration rabidly attacking the Scottish government or are they just doing a bit of token comment here and there playing out roles expected of them…

    It is only Scottish unionist MPs/MSPs that are in the battle. London knows the time has come. It is a game they can’t really control now. 

    The UK government has agreed to accept the result and done so openly. When Scotland reconvened it’s parliament that was it; London no longer controlled Scotland. Scots just needed to realise that.

    Give a people a parliament and you give them a voice. Unless you plan to send in tanks to suppress that voice when it speaks against you, then you must accept it. This is particularly the case with Scotland which is in union under treaty and recognised across the world as a nation/country. London is too weak to send in the tanks any more and the world has changed; it can’t do what it did in e.g. Eire, not now that we have the EU, UN etc.

    If the votes are counted and they are ‘Yes’, that’s it. Scotland may remain for a time ‘officially’ still part of the UK, but defacto independent (full control in terms of sovereignty). 
    If that was not the case, it would be an even bigger reason to vote Yes, if not get your claymore out 😉
     

  55. EphemeralDeception
    Ignored
    says:

    @Scottish Skier, Scotland is defacto independent from day 1 in spirit but UK still has control and ministries on all reserved areas and we send all taxes and revenues that we do today. UK government departments still provide services we pay for (DVLA, Passports, Social benefits, MOD, armed forces, Broadcasting/BBC – tricky one that….).

    Do all Scottish MPs really just walk out? Maybe, but that would leave a short term vacuum.
    An example just to illustrate:
    Scottish regiments are deployed in various locations around the world, how can the Scottish government manage that while still reserved and no Scottish MOD yet in place?  Scotland needs representation with UK in any ongoing actions
    Could be all our MPs have resigned so Scotland lobby’s UK for ALL Scottish interests  via a diplomatic channel.    Will the Tories Arbitrate for rUK on their own with Scotland represented only by SNP, all behind closed doors on all ongoing matters + in parallel we negociate the full independence set of treaty and agreements?  A tall order.

    Instead, I think a Scottish block of MPs would have a role to play during the wind down (pure guesswork on my part but I have not seen any real comment on impacts/changes to Governance immediately post Yes.).

  56. Dave McEwan Hill
    Ignored
    says:

    There is some confusion here – hopefully not being deliberately engendered. The protocol has already been agreed and signed. Both sides have agreed to accept the result of the referendum. On a YES vote Scotland becomes de facto independent. There will of course be negotiation about debts, assets and the division of shared services. Many of the details of this can be discussed  for some time but they will be negotiated by two independent countries.

    The separation of Czechoslovakia is a useful indicator about how this will be done. The independence of both component states was completed in six months but discussions about the precise  division of some of the more complicated detail went on for some time.

    It is entirely fatuous to suggest that two countries negotiating about some issue that they share are not independent of each other.

    No doubt we will hear more such deliberate attempts to sow uncertainty. England of course will get oil revenues from oil extracted from English territorial waters
     
    Crichton’s take on the James Maxton speech in the Record today should be noted. Better Together recognise their campaign is failing. They are stuffed. Devo Max is about to be revived as a the next step in their panic reaction. Labour disquiet is driving this.

  57. john king
    Ignored
    says:

    ” I advocate  decommissioning them, if they dont get their finger out in time, Imagine showing up at the scrap yard with Trident Missiles and placing them on the weighbridge, Err! how much a kilo did you say..”
    Jean Noble’ll tak em she’ll brek onyhin up
      

  58. Boorach
    Ignored
    says:

    Regarding trident on the Clyde following a Yes vote. Is it not the case that under the UN treaties it is illegal for a nuclear power to base their weapons on ‘foreign’ soil (water)?
     
    I’m fairly sure that I’ve read comments to that effect on previous threads here on Wings!

  59. scottish_skier
    Ignored
    says:

    Scotland needs representation with UK in any ongoing actions

    9% or so at some unimaginable best? Which is basically feck all. I thought that was the point of voting Yes.

    Yes = 100% representation.

    That’s what ‘Yes’ means. Scotland is now Scotland. It will no longer be some MPs in the corner of another nation’s parliament.
     

  60. Shinty
    Ignored
    says:

    scottish_skier
    Thanks for brightening up my day.  I do hope you are right.
     
     

  61. john king
    Ignored
    says:

    Scotland
    is a little red car who when you pull her back you wind up her spring and when let go she flys in delight,
    but the spoilt rich brat (who’s never really grown up) likes to pull her back and back and back until her mainspring is so tight she is trembling with anticipation as her little wheels spin, but the dead weight of those pudgy little hands restrain the little car from flying off, the the evil delight the brat takes from restraining the little car gives him pleasure  feeling the little car strain under his hand but one pull too many and her little mainspring (spirit) will break and then she’ll be thrown into the brats voluminousness toybox (which these days for such an acquisitive brat  is strangely empty) where she will lie forgotten and forlorn,
    The brat has always been so and has never had anyone brave enough to say NO 
    for a very long time the brat has taken other children’s toys and kept them because people were too afraid of him to say no,
    poor little Scotland was one of his first aqusitions to throw immediately into his toybox and forget, only to be taken out when he wanted to use it for different purposes like a hammer he would use poor little Scotland to bully other boys and girls and because Scotland was being held under a very strong spell did as she was asked and the toll on her was terrible but she did what she was told.
     
    Other toys followed quickly into the brats toybox America India, Canada, Austraila, and many more toys he took, not because he needed them but just because he could, he the tore these toys apart to see what was inside them and took whatever he fancied and left the toys strewn untidily across his bedroom floor, only when the toys realized they did not have to put up with the brats behaviour they decided to go back to what they were before, however some of the toys were able to repair themselves to such an extent they themselves became spoilt brats having taken a lead from the spoit brat who despoiled them.
    But the spoilt brat went on being what he always was, a spoilt brat and he kept on stealing and gorging himself until he became sick and nearly died from his overindulgence,
    people hoped he would see the error of his ways and become a more responsible brat and stop gorging himself at other peoples expense,
    but sadly no ,
    he simply told the other people they were to blame for him getting sick so he was going to punish them, so while he and his friends  (who REALLY WERE  to blame for his illness) continued to steal and gorge the poor people HE blamed were made to give him what little they had to keep him in new toys 
    i’m going to build a really fast train set for myself and noone else is going to get on it but me, but I’ll make them pay for it ,and I’m sure I can think of plenty of other things I can have and make those people pay for them, 
     
    But just at the height of the spoilt brats greed  the other boys and girls decided they’d had enough and while he was stamping his feet with his (playmates) Germany, France (ah beautiful France always liked her,) and the others said NO  we wont let you play with us if all you want is to make up the rules of the game to suit you, you either play by the groups rules or not at all,
    the brat had never been spoken to like that before and was speechless (how dare they speak to me like that,) I’ll leave them to play themselves then they’ll be sorry.
    All the wile this is going on his pudgy little hand is holding poor little Scotland down while her wheels spin helplessly but she starts to feel something,
    Is that hand not holding me quite as tightly as it has before? the brat seems distracted by being told off by the others,
    now Scotland now
    fly before the brat takes a tight grip of you and breaks your mainspring so you can never again let you little wheels spin and fly  
     
    fly my beloved Scotland fly
     

  62. Barontorc
    Ignored
    says:

    It is beyond any doubt that a transitional period will be needed and be honoured with good grace by both parties. Unfortunately, there is growing rancour festering away with the big greedy guys who know they are loosing a very provident milch cow and grace will be hard to feel as flowing from that quarter.
     
    So saying, a very grudging horse-trading scenario is expected, there will need to be a very sharp negotiating team and they’ll need plenty of aces up their sleeves to compel action, so don’t even think that a non-SNP negotiator could be involved.
     
    This has no chance of being a velvet divorce unless Scotland accepts every demand and we’re all stitched up in the process. There may be the need to insist on an external concilliation authority to see this through right from the start. This is gonna be a helluva problem, make no mistake about it.
     
     

  63. Chic McGregor
    Ignored
    says:

    @Andy-B
    “1 Billion years fron now, when the earths temperature, rises to a point, that not enough Carbon Dioxide will remain to allow plants to exist, Im sure Vince Cable will still be banging on about independence de-stablising, plant life or some shit.”
     
    Immortality?  Wouldn’t he need to sign a pact with the devil for that?  Oh wait,…

  64. Titler
    Ignored
    says:

    So saying, a very grudging horse-trading scenario is expected, there will need to be a very sharp negotiating team and they’ll need plenty of aces up their sleeves to compel action, so don’t even think that a non-SNP negotiator could be involved.

    Precisely. Independence is no guarantee of respect, as Bolivia’s President found out today in fact.

    And a vote for Yes isn’t a de-facto deceleration of Independence, but the statement that Scotland intends to work towards it… but international law and practical realities simply don’t work like the statements made. The Ukraine is still bartering the former Soviet Union’s military hardware back to Russia to pay GASPROM to this date. Likewise you may have the right to claim Independence, but that’s different from being able to keep it; had the US War of Independence failed, the US would have remained a British colony internationally, irrespective of the debate about taxation without representation…

    Now no one is saying the rest of the UK will invade Scotland; but you have to watch the results of the EU elections closely, as those will be the “British” arguing your case in the EU post independence, for instance… And there’s a good chance it’ll be Nigel Farange, or someone equally swivel eyed. Do you think he’s going to be sympathetic to Scots? Whether that’s fair or not is irrelevant; England tends to vote Stupid for the EU, and then complains that the results of the EU are Stupid.

    So too the UK government; you’re assuming you can just raise the flag, and if that doesn’t work, the claymore… but who will you be demanding freedom from if the Tories implode the UK government?  Legally no Parliament can force a future Parliament  to hold any position (or prosecute a past parliament for what was previously legal) thus by calling a General Election the swivel eyed instantly will halt any possible negations with Scotland, because the Ministers are now Interim not Sitting. Will they do it? I don’t know, but it’s a possibility if they think they’ve only got a year or so left with a crippled Cameron leading them.

    Honestly, I really recommend you read about the Irish delegations to London post cease-fire; they sent brilliant people… but the evil and oppressive don’t just stop being evil and oppressive once the main battles are won. Eventually the delegates wrangled out a Treaty, but remember Collins’ words after signing said Treaty…

    “When you have sweated, toiled, had mad dreams, hopeless nightmares, you find yourself in London’s streets, cold and dank in the night air. Think — what have I got for Ireland? Something which she has wanted these past seven hundred years. Will anyone be satisfied at the bargain? Will anyone? I tell you this; early this morning I signed my death warrant. I thought at the time how odd, how ridiculous — a bullet may just as well have done the job five years ago.”

    He was of course assassinated by anti-Treaty Irish forces shortly after. And Ireland’s economy was destroyed by the banking scandals decades later. So yes, just assuming you can win a referendum and everything will be just peachy is hopelessly naive. Write to your Westminster MPs and ask them what plans they are making for a post-Yes vote. Are they going to take the Hundreds? What constitutionally are they expecting will be their situation if they don’t, and are they responsible to Holyrood then or Westminster?  Yes the UK has promised to “respect” the Referendum; you could run an elderly lady weeping on a hospital bed through the difference between “respect legally” and “respect the spirit of” though, as the Tories have copiously proven by now… Many of you seem to think that once they see a proud, independent Scotland in the form of flags and statements, Westminster will suddenly stop being vicious, selfish and incompetent. But if they could easily do that, you wouldn’t have needed Independence in the first place.
     

  65. Braco
    Ignored
    says:

    Titler,
    you appear to be reaching conclusions about how this will all pan out, from historical knowledge of a different fight. One fought by different people, under different circumstances, with different weapons during a different time.
     
    This is understandable as we are all scrabbling around for information and theories to use in order to try and foresee the political path ahead. 
     
    Your posts, though always intelligent and thoughtful, unfortunately seem to me to lack a deep enough gut knowledge of the long struggle Scots (and not some other society) have designed, then created and finally mastered, in order to get to this point of political decision, without violence.

    Without violence in a struggle, as you say, with a Nation/Empire/System not known for it’s tolerance and restraint when faced with ‘rebellion’.
     
    You say ‘Many of you seem to think that once they see a proud, independent Scotland in the form of flags and statements, Westminster will suddenly stop being vicious, selfish and incompetent.’ Well Titler, I see this statement as evidence of a misreading of what you seem to think it is that we think.
     
    For these reasons, I can understand your fears and warnings, but I would say that the structural form to date of our movement to gain self determination and the philosophical and political attitudes it has required us to take, will not suddenly change with a YES vote either.
     
    Who do you think we have been dealing with all these decades/centuries? Yet here we are….   and we are here because our concepts, philosophies and methods have been winning.

    Winning against the very people you still feel the need to warn us about and decry our naivity over.  We have been fighting them for decades but you still know our enemy better than we do? Is this not just a wee bit condescending.
     
    Neither side will suddenly change post YES. By achieving YES however, one side will have already proven the strength of their philosophical conceptions of identity, their political skills and their negotiating abilities.

    These are the folk that will carry on our disentanglement with Westminster during any transitional period and as such, I have no real worries on that score.

  66. Dave McEwan Hill
    Ignored
    says:

    Titler
    The “British” will not be arguing our case post independence with the EU.
    What a strange idea.
    After independence we will be attached to the EU but not to Gt Britain and we will be negotiating the details of our EU membership directly with the EU through our seven  Scottish MEPs.  
    And a YES vote is in fact a de facto declaration of Independence as both the UK and Scottish administrations have signed up to accepting the result. All that happens after that is that two independent governments negotiate the details.
    The Irish declared independence in Mansion House, Dublin without any treaty arrangement or referendum on the 21st January 1919 which prompted  an armed response from Britain which was ended by a treaty in 1922 so the circumstances today are very different. 

  67. Barontorc
    Ignored
    says:

    When I raised the spectre of troubled waters ahead for an SNP negotiating team contra the UK Gov,  I did so with closing comment that we will most certainly require the services of an external authority to be a concilliator and if it can be agreed to arbitrate, to serve Scotland’s interests where natural justice is being thwarted.



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