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Polishing all the truth out

Posted on August 28, 2014 by

There’s something fascinating about the latest “No Thanks” leaflet that’s slithering its way through letterboxes in Scotland this week, and it’s not the empty sloganising it deploys in lieu of an argument. (“We’re better together because best of both worlds!”)


It’s this graph.

It’s an extremely bizarre thing in its own right. Firstly, pensions aren’t paid out of oil taxes, so the connection between the two things is tenuous at best. It’s also based on totally spurious projections – nobody’s ever been able to accurately predict population size/demographics or oil revenues over even a couple of years, let alone the long term.

(The first Labour/Liberal Democrat administration at Holyrood predicted in 2001 that Scotland’s population would fall below 5m in the subsequent decade, when in reality it rocketed to its highest ever level.)

Secondly, why are oil revenues being measured as a percentage of the UK economy, when the graph is supposedly depicting the position of an independent Scotland?

But neither of those are the oddest thing about this particular incarnation of the graph. Alert readers will have noticed that both the X-axis and the two separate Y-axes have definitions, but no numbers. How many years are being depicted? What are the GDP percentages being provided by oil taxes? Exactly how many pensioners are we talking about per 1000 of population?

Without such scales the graph is completely meaningless. It could be a false graph, where axes are truncated or magnified or otherwise manipulated to present a totally misleading picture – a tactic the No campaign has documented history with. If only there was some way we could find out if that was happening here.


Oh, that’s handy.

We last saw the graph above when debunking a “Better Together” booklet back in May. This is what we said about it at the time:

“The graph on the pensions page is a particularly farcical piece of sheer fantasy in all manner of ways – nobody has ever been able to accurately predict oil revenues or population demographics 12 months ahead, let alone 20 years.

And why are the two completely unrelated things plotted against each other in the first place? And why does one of them start on a zero axis and the other one two-thirds of the way up?”

So what can we deduce?

1. The new version has removed the line identifying sources, so that people can’t tell that these dodgy figures come from UK government departments, rather than impartial analysis.

2. The time period being described is 20 years – laughably far beyond what anyone can predict with even the remotest shred of credibility. Both of the lines on the graph are nothing more than sheer guesswork. You might as well estimate oil taxes or pensioner numbers by rolling dice.

(The older version, incidentally, says that pensioner numbers will dramatically and suddenly increase “just as oil runs out”. Leaving aside the question of WHY there would be such sudden spikes in pensioner numbers, rather than a steady gradual increase, that dates “oil running out” at either 2020 or 2028 – absurdly pessimistic projections wildly at odds with the industry’s own forecasts.)

3. The graph for oil taxes starts at 0, but the one for pensioner numbers starts at 260 out of a maximum displayed value of 400. In other words, it’s been magnified by almost 300%. A more accurate representation of the red line relating to the black one, with the Y axis starting at 0 on both, would be this:


Which paints a rather different and less alarming picture of the scale of the “pensioner timebomb”. But wait – that still greatly dramatises the fall in oil taxes, because the Y-axis for oil is so “zoomed in”, only going up to 0.8%. If we make the scale of both graphs the same (0-100%), we end up with the truest picture:


(And remember, the two things still aren’t actually related to each other and the numbers are still completely made-up.)

Still, we must congratulate “No Thanks” on at least managing to learn something from the hapless incompetence of their “Better Together” incarnation. BT guilelessly failed to conceal the clues exposing its dishonesty, giving away too much information from which alert readers could discern how badly it was misrepresenting the reality.

The new version has eliminated that mistake, and airbrushed out any possibility of people learning the truth from the data provided. If only it could delete history too.

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  1. 28 08 14 15:10

    Polishing all the truth out | Scottish Independence News

225 to “Polishing all the truth out”

  1. UncleBob says:

    Again, what a load of shite.

  2. Jonathan says:

    Can any one do a similar graph but Oil as a % of Scottish GDP not UK. Id be interested to see that. Or OAPs in the UK at least that might be a bit more apples n apples.

  3. sydthesnake says:

    maybe the graphs upside down, maybe they are trying to polish a turd, no matter how much polish you use it’s still a turd, this is designed to confuse the elderly who have no access to tinternet

    vote yes, very easy PUT an X in the YES box

  4. bookie from hell says:

    might of well gone the whole way,show a diff country

  5. BrianW says:

    Deceitful B***ards… The lot of them..

  6. No voters in my experience wouldn’t even question the information in their leaflets #gospel the truth is a stranger to them, hence their fear and illogical obsession to stay with UK or as one woman said the other day ‘my country is the UK’ I didn’t even trouble to answer – the UK isn’t a country! it’s a State. Save your breath get the +ive message out there.

  7. Ian Brotherhood says:

    First time I’ve ever burst out laughing at a graph.

    ‘You can’t half have a laugh with that there graph.’

    Try saying that after a few of your favourite…

  8. goldenayr says:

    Or maybe this will assure them?

    The first of many?

  9. yerkitbreeks says:

    As with the first rule of journalism – never let the truth get in the way of making a good story.

  10. McTim says:

    Between Flipper’s TV debacle and the Patronising Lady getting ripped to shreds on FB and Twitter and now this useless graph, Naw Thanks are having a nightmare of a week. Please let this continue until September 18.

  11. handclapping says:

    But if we are better together surely the pensioner graph should be measuring all UK pensioners per Scottish worker.

    Also as Westminster is fiddling with the pension age how do they know who will be pensioners in 2034 if they dont know the age at which pensions will be “given”

  12. horacesaysyes says:

    With regard to the quote underneath the graph – even if it is true, doesn’t that just illustrate why we need control of our own immigration policy so we can encourage working age people to come and live here, and not kick out folk who would like to stay and contribute but currently can’t?

  13. Illy says:

    Anyone who actually paid attention in Standard Grade Science classes would catch that they haven’t labelled their axis.

    And unlabelled axis are one of the biggest signs that you’re having to “massage” your data to give the result that’s expected. I know half my class did it at one point or another, and hoped that the teacher didn’t catch them.

  14. Macart says:

    And just like every other piece of their misleading pish pushed through my letterbox, it will find itself dismembered and resting in the bin.

  15. Nana Smith says:


    Comments are getting very heated, mostly the no camp. Just what we didn’t need right now.

  16. Wp says:

    Never interutpt your enemies when they are making mistakes. (Napoleon).

  17. Triskelion says:

    I’m worried, will people believe it anyways?

  18. creag an tuirc says:

    and what plans have Westminster got in place to tackle the oil and pensioner problem? None. So in 50 years, the oil runs out. Will Westminster subsidise Scotland’s £12 billion oil black hole and top heavy pensioner population? Aye right. That’s when we’ll not be better together, when pooling and sharing resources is a bad thing and the Act of the Union disappears in an puff of self interest. Scotland will be left an empty husk and told it was time we stood on their own two feet.

    We need independence to fix the aging population problem and prepare for when the oil runs out because Westminster aint. Sorry, sort of went on a rant there 🙂

  19. Dcanmore says:

    Only produced to confuse and frighten pensioners: ‘It’s alright dear, see that postal vote, just put a cross in NO a we’ll make sure that you’re robbed until you die.’

    … and these despicable charlatans know exactly what they are doing.

  20. Eric D says:

    Don’t just laugh this off – they’re targetting those who don’t have computers, have never heard of ‘Wings, and get their ‘facts’ from newspapers, TV, and radio.
    Remember, as many as 1.4 million voters in Scotland don’t have ‘easy access’ to the internet, and the vast majority are pensioners and the poor.

    BT know exactly what they’re doing, and who they’re doing it to.

    The ONLY way to counter this is by knocking on doors and actually showing those misinformed and genuinely frightened folk the real facts – with a smile – and a promise of more independent information if they want it.

    BT have never been able to do this – but they do have the cash, and a small army of professional and experienced spinners and ‘special advisors’ who know how to scare vulnerable folk into doing things.

  21. Well I was at the Jim Murphy roadshow in Cupar. I have never been to a hustings. Also there was the STV. I am thinking that they will edit the footage to make sure the YES people look bad.
    The warm-up acts for Murphy were Menzies Campbell, Willie Rennie and Murdo Fraser. There were NO supporters there some of which I suspect weren’t from Cupar.
    I think it could be put out on You Tube as one Yes supporter had a camera.

  22. Ladybird says:

    Here’s the bit that’s puzzling me. Oil revenues account for in the region of 15% of Scotland’s total revenue “take” ( in an independent country), in what way are pensions reliant on this? As far as I am aware spending comes from the whole sum of collected revenue not just a part of it.

    Have I missed something here?

  23. desimond says:

    Reminds me of Family Guy episode when the toddler Stewie presents his parents Lois and Peter with a drawing and they shower him high praise and he walks away so proud.

    Its only once he walks out of frame that the 2 parents collapse in laughter at how bad the drawing is.

  24. Ron Burgundy says:

    This is the latest U-KOK attack plan.

    1. Scotland is poor.

    2. Oil is our ONLY revenue stream

    3. It will run out soon then we will be living in caves.

    No mention of tax revenues from quality foods, tourism, whisky, specialised manufacturing or renewables never mind the vast new oil and gas fields west of Shetland.

    It is ironic to read History woman for example saying a few months back that YES supporters are all thick or as Krankie said at FMQ’s the YES campaign and Salmond were treating the Scottish population like “mugs”. In reality this kind of shit could only be swallowed by a moron – the typical Orange Order Brit Nat Muppet. Theirs is the campaign feeding on ignorance and deception. Fuming about this, think I will go and do another street with the newspaper to calm down.

  25. heedtracker says:

    The great UKOK oil jewel in their crown UK oil fraud, staggers on.

    Scotland, the only country to be cursed by a massive oil industry and £2.5 trillion oil and gas reserves

    “We’ve produced 41 billion barrels. If you look ahead, we could still produce another 25 billion barrels – at $100 a barrel, that’s $2,500bn.”

    sayeth Sir vote NO Ian, currently worth £1.5 billion, depending on who’s asking and his mood swings.

  26. goldenayr says:

    “Responding to Dr Whitford’s claims, Sir Leonard Fenwick, the chief executive of the North East NHS foundation, was reported as saying: “This is the biggest lot of crap I have ever heard. It is just codswallop”

    Doesn’t offer any evidence to the contrary though.

  27. G H Graham says:

    Here’s the real problem that’s been with us for over 100 years & caused directly by being a part of the UK.

    From 1911 to 2011 the population of England grew from 33,561,235 to 53,012,456 or 58.0%.

    Over that exact same period, the population of Scotland grew from 4,760,904 to 5,062,000, approx 6.3%.

    Assuming birth & death rates to be roughly in line with each other, Scotland has therefore lost about 2.5 million of its people in that 100 year period. Why? Well, if the population rates were the same, Scotland’s population today should be over 7.5 million.

    So where have they gone? Well, some have emmigrated but the vast majority have had to head south to look for work.

    If we really are Better Together, perhaps someone in London can explain why they think it a benefit when over the last century, half a country’s population has had to leave?

  28. desimond says:

    “Look, a squiggly-line”

  29. fred blogger says:

    i have not fully read the post, but pat’s statement has already caught my attention…as well as that there are not 63m people in the uk..and less than half that no and many in work poverty.
    i nearly posted on pat the pensioner, because what it seems to promise by staying part of the WM union, is eternal life.
    am i right to think that?

  30. fred blogger says:

    sorry typo; not 63m people in WORK in the uk.

  31. CameronB Brodie says:

    An early draft.

  32. heedtracker says:

    Vote NO or else, gloves orf now chaps, what ho.

  33. goldenayr says:

    Looks like Sir Leonard is also an advocate of the free market trust set up.

    Be warned.

  34. Tess says:

    It’s nice that they haven’t revised their oil projections either, considering they’re claiming there is less than even they previously thought.

  35. Wee Jimmy says:

    Any ideas for hashtag to spread this on Twitter?

  36. heedtracker says:

    Surely not?

    “The Electoral Commission has met senior staff at the CBI to seek further information on its campaign activities, including the annual dinner which the prime minister is to address,”

    says BBC in Scotland under bad photo of Scotland’s FM too.

    Whatever happens I will never pay these Pacific Quay con men wages again.

  37. Joe Swan says:

    This is truly disgraceful. And they claim they are not ‘scaremongering’!

    If these f’wits win this by hoodwinking and cheating they will never be forgotten. Nor will those who are standing on platforms with them. By standing with your unscrupulous ‘colleagues’ you are endorsing this sh!te.

    So make up your minds now. Your names will go down in history as liars and cheats regardless of what the result is.

  38. highseastim says:

    Will there be a protest outside of Cameron’s dinner date??

  39. Macart says:


    😀 Yep, easy on the proof reading right enough.

  40. Further to Murphy’s hustings in Cupar.

    He told the crowd that the ”Nationalists”, basically anyone who questions him, That in Motherwell the ”nationalist mob” was like a riot, and it got ugly, behaving that way when they lose the argument.

  41. Kevin says:

    I have just spotted another major blooper on the leaflet. See the bit where ‘David, retired police officer’ says: “I like the fact we have over 63 million people across the UK paying into the pension pot”.

    Last time I checked, the UK population is 64 million (2013 figures). How many are under 16 years old and how many are over the pension age, as I was under the impression that people in these groups are not paying into the pension pot?

    According to the Office for National Statistic, as of August 2014 there are 40 million adults of working age in the UK. 30 million are in employment, while the rest are economically inactive (therefore not contributing to the pension pot in the meanwhile).

    I would be most interested to know where they got the figure of 63 million people paying into the pension pot.

  42. Robert Louis says:


    You are correct. Pensions are paid from current taxation in the UK at present, and NOBODY has even remotely suggested that pension in iScotland will be paid from oil revenues.

    This fact does not stop the likes of Gordon brown repeating the oil/pensions lie over and over again. The anti independence campaign really is just made up of a bunch of compulsive liars.

    Meanwhile, with just three weeks of the campaign left, we still await, with bated breath, the much fabled ‘Positive case for the Union’. Surely we’ll get to hear about it soon, won’t we?? I’m sure it will be compelling stuff.

  43. Bugger (the Panda) says:


    Duncan Carswell MP has reportedly quit the Tories and will stand as a UKIP candidate in his own seat.

    He had a very large majority and should get in, I assume when Dave allows the seat to be called.

    iDave’s teais oot and the move to the right of the Conservative’s is happening.

    I wonder if some folk in the Tories are expecting a Yes vote, a lame duck Dave and a strong right wing alliance of UKIP and a new right wing Tories lead by whom?


    Please and before the Ref.

  44. HandandShrimp says:

    Much is made of Scotland’s “rapidly” aging population. However, most countries are experiencing the self same projections for the next 40 years or so. The UK is no exception. There is no clear picture as to how the UK intends to resolve this matter, other than putting the retirement age up to 93, so one is hardly jumping from the bosom of safety into the fire by voting Yes.

  45. George Quin says:

    hello people my first time posting on wings but i have been lurking around for oh about 3 months and came here looking for some real facts not the propoganda released by the MSM, anyways just wanted to say hiya and guess what my postal vote came in yesterday and is getting posted today and how do i put this ….. oh well might as well come out and say i voted no …… JUST KIDDING!!!! lets hope that the election is not rigged in any way as im a bit concerned about the supposed impartiality of the electoral commission pleaae tell me that there will be independants checking the votes and please tell me that they will be closely monitored and what about the whole using pencil in the voting booth seems a bit too easy to fiddle the results well anyways guys good talking to you all and i hope that the 19th is the day we can finally hold our head up and take decisions for our own country at least that way if we mess up it will be our own fault and not westminsters.

    cya people and peace be with you all have a great day!!

  46. Robert Louis says:


    Suggesting Douglas Alexander should be dangling from a rope, is not necessarily the best way to persuade people to vote YES.

    Just saying.

  47. Onwards says:

    Perhaps an obvious remedy is to increase the chances of young people staying in Scotland.
    With a boost in powers to provide more investment and jobs.

  48. crantara says:

    Hi Rev,
    the figures quoted below are contained in 2 separate articles by Daniel Gross and are available in The Slate. The Alaska oil fund currently sits at $51.6 Billion.It produces an annual income of $2.9 Billion and in 2013 the fund increased by £840 Million.9.6% of Alaskans live below the poverty line.There is virtually no income tax on residents.The permanent fund stands at £68,000 per resident.North Dakota has a fund of £2Billion. Wyoming trust fund is $6billion.So much for no you can,t.These are states not countries and make their own decisions.So should I listen to Johann Lamont,the wummin that uses anusol as a lipsalve? I,d rather listen to my dog farting.

  49. Cag-does-thinking says:

    I have noticed lots in the media today about “reconciliation” oddly enough there was a similar swathe of stuff about three weeks ago just before AD “won” the first debate then it all went quiet when the media were trying to spin that BT were of course winning and they weren’t worried at all at all. Now the co-ordinated line today seems to be about reconciliation as if Labour party members are expecting riots in the streets on the 19th September. And this seems to be all because those nasty Yes people have the affrontery to call them out on their untruths and that’s becoming quite a habit, although as we have seen only BT supporters get in to most of their events in the interest of “reconciliation” maybe they should engage with real people more. Ohh yes I remember now Jim Murphy does that and that’s going really well…

  50. Dr Jim says:

    On the back of Conservative MP changing horses to UKIP today we now have’..wait fot it..’Alistair Carmichael’offering his services to our beaten and demoralised First Minister to become a part of ‘Team Scotland’ after a yes vote, as he would feel it was wrong to continue in his present post.
    Maybe he’s had a wee hint from his esteemed leader that when they lose he might have to ‘Fly away home’
    Thing is, Alistair son, I don’t think there’ll be a wee nest to settle in.
    See , when ye lie with a mouth like yours ,NAEBODY TENDS TAE WANT YE ‘
    Just a thought mind.

  51. Robert Louis says:


    That is far to insightful, intelligent and forward thinking for any unionist to handle.

  52. msean says:

    When you have to be this creative with campaign literature,you have a problem. No Thanks, it’ll be a yes from me.

  53. Xaracen says:

    NOBODY has even remotely suggested that pension in iScotland will be paid from oil revenues.

    Actually Gordon Broon did, he claimed that oil revenues of around £3bn would have to pay for all of about £40bn of public spending, on Pensions, Social Care, NHS, and Education.

  54. Dunx says:

    I also noticed the ex-polis man doesn’t mention his pension along with that of the Fire brigades and Cooncil workers pensions come out of a Local Authority pension fund that they paid into.You know the sort of thing that “Prudence” Broon raided! As for Tesco, for some reason one of my few talents is for finding the nearest Tescos in whatever town or city I end up in.As a result I could probably list them in order of value from Stornoway to Saffron Walden.The one in Saffron Walden is the worst its prices are on a par with my local Co-op! So I’m not sure whether they compared a Tesco in Northern Ireland or the R.O.I. but the best tip I can offer them if they are looking for “value” is to find one with a nearby ASDA. The rest of the leaflet is full of glib statements pretending to be “Fact” (Hint a fact is something that is verifiable or “falsifiable”).The intervention from “no less an authority than…”Archie WOOOOF!!!! MacPherson is pure rhetoric.

  55. heedtracker says:

    Perhaps an obvious remedy is to increase the chances of young people staying in Scotland.

    The remedy is getting as far away from Scotland as possible. If there’s no work or its a fiver an hour shelf stacking, go, dont hang about, get the hell away if UKOK wins. Then when you lived your life in Australia, America, Canada come back to retire in Scotland and tell everyone that Scotland’s too poor, wee and feart because if Bliar McFastpiearm wins, he’s right.

  56. Brotyboy says:

    @ PeeGee

    You are a fucking idiot.

    Rev, we’ve been here before with this sort of talk, please deal with it.

  57. YESGUY says:


    A country with an aging population ??

    The only country where we don’t have children born ?? Aye

  58. fred blogger says:

    yes, retirement age has gone up from 60 for women, 60 for men who were once eligible @ that age for PGC or age related jsa/esa increases, the age is now 62 and a bit, to 65 2018 from there it will increase to @ least 66 then 69. so whereas state pensions/PGC were paid out @ 60, there will now be up to a 9 yr delay in paying out pensions! which obviously means initially a much lower pensions costs and a greater likelihood that people will not get too pension age!

  59. Thepnr says:

    The graph is completely and totally meaningless. Even those that will be voting No must be shaking their heads at such a pathetic attempt at scaremongering.

  60. Papadox says:

    What is going to happen to Denmark, Sweden, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Ireland, Iceland, Malta, Lithuania, Latvia, New Zealand, Japan

    They are all in the same situation as Scotland, accept they don’t have this accursed oil problem. Either BETTER TOGETHER thinks Scottish pensioners are stupid or they’re just trying to scare them witless and treat them with utter contempt as usual, to rob them blind.

    Beware of nicely spoken spivs in nice suites, they tell lies to con you.

  61. Edmund says:

    Looks like good news to me – if we believe the graph, over time the percentage of GDP provided by oil will fall, as Scotland becomes _less_ dependent on what is, after all, a finite and polluting resource.

    Oil revenues could remain static or even increase and still end up as a smaller percentage of Scotland’s GDP, as GDP itself could have increased due to renewable energy, exports, information techonology, engineering, clerical work, logistics, housebuilding, food and drink, inward investment, finance, and all the other sectors that make up Scotland’s diverse economy.

  62. scunnered says:

    oh dear….better together have been playing with an etch a sketch again….nobody can understand it so it will go straight in the bin

  63. scunnered says:

    funny how its only scottish pensioners who are multiplying though…is the average life span in scotland a lot better than englands then?

  64. HandandShrimp says:

    I can’t help that Mr Murphy is actually courting confrontation. He and his entourage seem keen to mix it and then cry “nasty cyber-nat” if anyone shouts at him.

    I suggest that people should ignore his remaining rants and leave him to it. He is saying nothing and on the rare occasions he has a crowd it is when Yes people go out to confront him.

  65. Capella says:

    You forgot to mention Stu that Westminster is liable for pensions for the foreseeable future. That’s where all our NI contributions go until Independence Day arrives. Pat surely hasn’t been keeping up. If she’d been living in England she would have good internet connectivity and be able to get proper information online.
    I thought that graph was a kiddies drawing when I saw the leaflet. Confirmation, if it was needed, that the IFS and OBR are simply propaganda machines.

  66. HandandShrimp says:

    funny how its only scottish pensioners who are multiplying though…is the average life span in scotland a lot better than englands then?

    They never tire reminding us that we have the lowest life expectancy in western Europe. Consistency of argument isn’t their strongest suit.

  67. Macsenex says:

    Is the red line not Mr Darling’s blood pressure?

  68. Luigi says:

    Pensioners have long memories. I can’t remember which chancellor raided their pensions a few years back but I bet they do!

  69. seoc says:

    BetTog have gone from failed written scary tales to wee scary diagrams.
    That’s it – no facts, no argument, nothing positive.

  70. JWil says:

    Derek Bateman’s damning judgement on some of the 133 companies advocating a NO vote. It is very clear that it would be better if Scotland could do without them.

  71. fred blogger says:

    but, actually no’s of state pensioners is decreasing atm.
    as the pension age increases.
    loss of pensions via the pension age escalator, the retirement age will go up soon to 66 increasing to 69.
    where few people will be able to claim it coz of being dead, or not having paid the required 35 yrs NI contributions.

  72. JWil says:

    The guy who swore at Alexander is exactly right in what he called him.

  73. @luigi,

    Gordon Brown raided the pension funds, millions of pensions now less, £118bn it cost the pension funds.
    Alistair Darling gave the pensioners a measly raise of 75pence a week.

  74. heedtracker says:

    HandandShrimp, its so low in parts of Glasgow, its not even registering in stats but Graun had a pop at it

    So you drop off the perch at 70 odd here in the Scotland region but if you’re rather wealthy in the south east, you’re looking at 10 to 20 years more.

  75. CameronB Brodie says:

    Turn your back on him if you don’t like what he’s saying, in a silent protest. That could be an interesting youtube clip.

  76. Flooplepoop says:

    They used the pessimistic 10 Billion OBR oil projection in that graph, i wonder what it would look like using the 24 Billion optimistic projection.

  77. ForeverScotland says:

    Did you notice in that graph that our OAP population is going to decline over the next 6 or so years! and the dramatically bread the years after that. Will that be due to the austerity measures still to come and are they going to be putting Viagra in oor water or something

  78. Greannach says:

    So, household name Douglas Carswell MP has left the Tories for UKIP. Wow! That’s like discovering that fish live in water. Wow!

  79. heedtracker says:

    So by 2020 Scotland will be a completely green domestic energy producer but elderly impoverished Scots will die of hypothermia?

    And quite possibly the same Scots pensioners currently having the life frightened out of them by a very fat man in an expensive but ill fitting suit somewhere in Blythswood Square?

  80. Capella says:

    O/T Craig Murray has posted his speech at St Andrews with description of the atmosphere. Encouraging.

  81. galamcennalath says:

    I suppose it kind of looks like the Cullins from Elgol across Loch Coruisk. But what has that got to do with pensioners? And, what have pensioners got to do with oil?

    West coast, oil …. I get it! Hidden messages about west coast oil reserves. Another NBTT own goal.

  82. Dr Jim says:

    It’s the ‘Pulling and Shearing’
    I’m going out now.

  83. Marco McGinty says:

    The fictional Pat the Pensioner is a dumbass! Oil production from Scottish waters will continue long after he/she is dead, after his/her offspring are dead, and after his/her grandchildren. So there’s no need to worry!

    But I do wonder if the reason for declining tax revenues could have something to do with UK government policy that allows large companies to avoid and evade tax.

  84. JWil says:

    In Eleanor Bradford’s latest assault on the NHS in Scotland, this time over a deficit of mental health support for cancer sufferers, she gives the impression that it applies only to Scotland. The Study was done by researchers from Oxford and Edinburgh and from what they say it applies to all of the UK. Also, it seems to be a new subject of research, so until it is known about, and recommendations can be made how can anything be done?

    You would not have guessed from listening to Eleanor.

  85. Mike Heinemeier says:

    When the oil runs out it runs out for England too. However it will last a lot longer and the taxes invested for the long term future of our children. Westminster would spend all the money on maintaining UK prestige as a Nuclear power. We have the worst pension in Europe. An independant Scotland would bring pensioners up to parity with other wealthy countries. New Zealand pension is about £250 a week per person.

  86. aldo_macb says:

    Peegee at 212 has surely broken house rules.

  87. JWil says:

    Something I noticed about the YES campaign’s Political Broadcast on BBC 2 was that it started a couple of minutes late and half way through it the National News was starting on BBC 1. Anyone having set their telly to switch to the start of the news would have missed half of the broadcast.

    A deliberate ploy by BBC Scotland?

  88. Capella says:

    Eleanor Bradford seems violently hostile to the NHS or, more likely, to the SNP oversight of the NHS. The BBC have increased their FOI requests to the NHS seven fold since the SNP took office. Usually her tirades are broadcast early in the week so that Johann Lamont can fling mud at Alec Salmond in FMQs. But now she will be on the case 24/7. Until the 18th.

  89. CameronB Brodie says:

    The Rev. doesn’t read all the posts, so you’ll need to contact him using the contact form, if you want him to know what you think.

  90. scunnered says:

    @ Mike Heinemeier
    well said great post
    also pensioners in scotland will collect there pensions a lot earlier because the average life span in england is a lot longer than it is in scotland

  91. on BBC 200 Scottish businesses have come out in favour of independence.

  92. muttley79 says:

    I have to agree with HandandShrimp on how to deal with the Murph and the likes of Alexander for that matter. It is better to either ignore them, or ask them questions in a calm manner, than shout or swear at them. They will go on and on about this. Do not give them any ammunition.

  93. heedtracker says:

    But I do wonder if the reason for declining tax revenues could have something to do with UK government policy that allows large companies to avoid and evade tax.

    Scots oil is only go to go up in value. The US has a glut of fracked gas currently dragging down US domestic fuel bills to levels unimaginable here in the yewkay and it’s going to last for decades.

    How much is a barrel of Brent crude right now? still averaging $100 a barrel .

  94. MJack says:

    The big question no-one seems to be asking is, when oil taxes start to run out, will our benevolent government in Westminster begin to subsidise Scotland as we have subsidised the rUK for the last 30 years? I’ll take my chances with Hollyrood!

  95. Karmanaut says:

    @Mike Heinemeier

    Great post. I think you totally nailed it. And that’s maybe the tactic we should be adopting. What if we only have 50 years of strong oil production left? Can we afford to let Westminster squander it to keep up its Nuclear power prestige? Or should we seize the opportunity to invest all of thaty money Scotland’s future?

  96. Jamie Arriere says:

    “Johann Lamont,the wummin that uses anusol as a lipsalve”

    Take a bow, Crantara, that’s brilliant.

  97. Quentin Quale says:

    Remember Scott Minto’s great article on the Scottish Research Society (August 5th)? The one that is NOT a campaign group and they would commission articles by academic writers, seeking to inform and provide balance? Well, not only do they have a link to ‘OTHER No campaigns’ in the sites ‘About’ box, but the most recent article is written by William Stirling, a candidate in the 2007 Scottish parliamentary elections. I’m guessing for the Conservatives as he assisted Murdo Fraser’s 2011 leadership campaign.
    Article is titled ‘Oil-fired Seperatism & Scotland’s Future. Yeah, as balanced as it sounds.
    Mind you it does say he has studied Greek Tragedy. Seems he still does.

  98. We were always taught to respect the elderly but I literally despair for these selfish, self-serving and ignorant Scottish Pensioners who are more worried about their wants and money for the bingo.

    Within the next few years they will be planted under Scottish soil and they have zero concern for their children`s and grandchildren`s futures after they are gone.

    In the intervening period they are happy to watch everything decay and be destroyed whilst wandering around in a sea of abject ignorant bliss.
    Pensioners ME,ME,ME culture is disgraceful.

    WoS has many informed and intelligent Pensioners (HOPEFULLY MYSELF INCL) who have a bounden social conscience and a real vision for our collective future.

    We must attack these idiot pensioners on “Social Values” that, once upon a time they voluntarily supported and funded.

    Someone`s son, daughter and grandchildren are being fed by FOODBANKS – do they KNOW how their grandchildren are being fed.?
    Do these selfish Pensioners CARE.?

  99. Luigi says:

    No swearing or insults are needed or welcome, folks – leave that to BT.

    Stay calm, keep focused, and continue talking to people.

    We are winning!

  100. bunter says:

    Wee Doogie running to the papers to cry ”divided country” because someone called him out for being an effing liar on the BBC. Headline in The Herald.

    Whats worse, industrial language or a barefaced liar who frightens pensioners, which the media does not challenge.

  101. Colin says:


    I have just read in the Aberdeen Evening Express that if Scotland votes Yes for independence then Alistair Carmichael will think about giving up his ministereal post and join Alex Salmonds team

    Don’t know if it is a ploy to get us to vote no, but I certainly would never vote SNP again.

  102. call me dave says:

    Mike Heinemeier

    Yes Sir, that’s all you have to point out. Whatever oil is left to extract is better in a Scottish Government pocket than in Westminster. Simples! There is no counter to that fact.

  103. katsoft says:

    mine just arrived, stuck through door. Yep you’re right. Now to file it in the big {in our area} blue filing cabinet.

  104. Colin says:

    Or even ministerial

  105. Jamie Arriere says:
    28 August, 2014 at 3:43 pm
    “Johann Lamont,the wummin that uses anusol as a lipsalve”

    Wish it was pripstick.

  106. Proud Cybernat says:

    O/T (Apologies)

    Referendum great for business. Loads of people in the net cafe here today printing off voter registration forms before Monday deadline.

    I kid you not Wingers – spoke to about ten of them. YES = 8. NO = 2.

    I’ve never been more confident taht we’re gonna do this.

  107. handclapping says:

    These are the same pensioners who have to choose between heating and eating already and who grew up in the days you would starve rather than accept charity.
    Now the Chancellor who saved our savings from the banks is telling us that our pension, such as it is, is at risk if we vote Yes. Its sensible to vote No and at least preserve the pension that we’ve got.

  108. PRJ says:

    Would this so called problem be the same for the UK, Rising pensioners diminishing revenue?

  109. galamcennalath says:

    JWil says:
    “A deliberate ploy by BBC Scotland?”

    YesScotland should demand a re-run. This time, on schedule.

  110. Kev says:

    Well I was always taught that a graph is useless without a scale and I’m sure the many pensioners seeing this won’t be fooled. BTNothanksU-KOK have lurched from PatronisingBT wummin to patronising pensioners again, the former has backfired spectacularly I fully expect this shameful effort to follow suit.

  111. Thepnr says:

    @James Caithness

    That facebook video is absolutely classic. I’ve shared it, think it will go viral.

  112. call me dave says:


    Steady the horses a bit.. I see you are a pensioner and there are many more,like you, who are well aware of the ‘No Thanks’ tactics.

    Some even remember a proper labour party, but unfortunately few if any of them, after election, ever did anything much except for the immediate post war years where times were really hard.

  113. Thepnr says:

    My last post referred to James’s video about the Duke of Wellington statue.

  114. Capella says:

    O/T but from previous thread. Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp 02/12/2013 in Business for Scotland article disputing Owen Paterson claim about embassies’ support to Scottish business
    “Yet upon investigation this claim is clearly bogus. On St Andrew’s Day there was absolutely no effort to promote Scotland from UK embassies. This follows previous criticism that the UK network was refusing to support Scotland’s Development body in promoting Scottish whisky. Instead Scotland Development International were charged £3,000 to access UK facilities while UK Trade and Investment received access free of charge.
    Yet BBC Today programme this morning denies that this is the case.

  115. David G says:

    @goldenayr 1.27

    The Maidenhead Advertiser is owned by Trinity Mirror, owners of The Daily Record, Sunday Mail, Daily Mirror and dozens of local papers.

    I wonder if they’re running that poll in all their local papers ? It would take ages to check them .. here’s Wikipedia’s list of Trinity Mirror-owned titles

  116. heedtracker says:

    The future of the Scotland region in the hands of the far right but where does progressive liberal UK end and big C conservative begin

    Also, another UKOK nutcase at Glesga uni but worth a scope if you’re into far right UKOK troll hunting

  117. CameronB Brodie says:

    Tory PM Benjamin Disraeli, proposed a One Nation Britain just over half a century after La Terreur, if memory serves. And thus the progenitor of fascism was born.

    The enemy’s enemy: Disraeli and working class leadership

  118. Tom Foyle says:

    The “grey” voters are definitely being targeted by BT. A friend’s mum was only concerned about the heating allowance being cut/removed after a successful “YES” vote. I tried to reassure her in the simplest possible terms that she’d actually be BETTER off. Then I got the currency question – well, that was easy enough – but she came back to the heating allowance again. I asked her why she was so concerned, it turned out that a BT leaflet had informed her that if Scotland gained independence, that benefit would be forfeit. Eventually, I got across the fact that it wasn’t just incorrect, it was a LIE, and, subsequently, took her the information to prove it. I believe she may vote yes, but can’t be sure, as BT has been extremely successful in terrorising pensioners.
    Also met a disabled guy in a mobility scooter who was a DK, may still be, but presented to him rational arguments concerning benefits and the dissolution of the NHS under Wasteminster law. The best advice I could give him – which he wrote down – was WoS. Lets hope he succumbs to cynicism – “That dreadful practice of seeing things as they really are, instead of how they ought to be.” With apologies to Oscar Wilde, who, had he been a Scot, would have voted as only he knew how. “Don’t be ridiculous, dear boy, one has no doubt in this matter, none whatsoever. Only the unspeakable in full pursuit of the inedible would POSSIBLY vote no.” Again, Mr. Wilde, I apologise…but not too deeply!

  119. In Scotland we ALL know pensioners and others who spend an entire Saturday morning ploughing through the horse race form, football form, greyhound racing form etc, invariably to lighten their own wallets and bulge the bags of bookies.

    Had these ignorant Scottish Pensioners spent a similar amount of time to INFORM themselves on Independence, they would not be pleading IGNORANCE now.?

  120. call me dave says:

    James Caithness

    Thanks for that. Johann volunteered to be a stooge for the straight man. That’s her level right enough.

    LFI will have to clear away all that dross to allow a decent party to emerge in the event of a YES or a NO.

  121. Billy Mac says:

    Well Pat, if you’re a pensioner you will continue to get it from the Brit goverment as they’ve guaranteed to pay it. So no worries.

  122. Dan Huil says:

    OT. Dennis Canavan speaking tonight at Bishopmill Hall, Elgin 7:30 pm.

  123. @WantonWampum.

    At YES meetings and gatherings I am very aware of how many pensioners and the elderly are supporting YES.

  124. @WantonWampum.

    At YES meetings and gatherings I am very aware of how many pensioners and the elderly are supporting YES.

  125. Ron Burgundy says:

    Pensioners you can divide into TWO categories

    1. Those with a brain + a social conscience will vote YES.

    2. Those who are (a) Dumb and disconnected, who get their
    news from Sally and Jackie and the
    Unionist print media will vote NO

    (b) In receipt of a private pension
    and who use their OAP as fun money
    and have no social conscience. A
    fact which they conceal using the I
    hate Alec Sammin line but who equally,
    wilfully realise they are stuffing
    the younger generation, will also vote

  126. Ian Mor says:

    PeeGee @ 2:12
    Is that what passes for acceptable posts on Wings now? I hope that’s dealt with today.

  127. Tam Jardine says:

    The % of UK economy is idiotic – the line will stop in 2016 once the UK is dissolved but ignoring that what kind of a measure is that in itself?

    Without knowing the projected overall size of the UK economy how do we know whether the wee black line going up or down is a good thing or a bad thing? If we prosper and the percentage goes down all well and good. If the economy goes down the pan and oil is all we have left, the percentage will go up.

    Good luck predicting the size of either UK rUK or Scottish economies 20 years hence. As the Rev says – same is true of the “aging population”. I don’t particularly like the elderly being portrayed as a burden in this way – a projection of the amount spent on the state pension is a little kinder than giving the rise of the elderly as a number per thousand like we’re talking about ebola.

  128. Col The Viking says:

    Just back from popping out, managed to a quick skim of the Daily Record.

    Everyone can relax, I barely knew it myself, but Archie MacPherson has single-handedly rescued the Union for BTUKOKNOTA at the exact same moment, according to Twating C*ntil, all of the electorate is seeing though the Yes campaigns lies!

    It was like a magical mystery tour……..

    Keep up the work, we are winning!

  129. Proud Cybernat says:

    Liars to the Bitter end.

  130. heedtracker says:

    “I say. Jeeves, what’s that frightful clucking noise every time I pass local Scottish types?”

    “The think you’re a chicken sir, for not debating with Alex Salmomd, after stating that you’d do anything to stop Scotland running Scotland”

    What ho.

  131. Macandroid says:

    @ Robert Louis

    Maybe if he was dangling at the end of a rope like the Fakir he actually is!

    Did I say Fakir?

  132. Capella says:

    Sorry to go on about this – it is about telling the truth!
    Newsnet also has an article on Scottish business being charged to use embassies while “UK” are not.
    Has the BBC lied about this on the Today programme (approx 8.20)? They were attempting to undermine the integrity of the 200 businesses which support Independence. I see Newsnet are also calling for the BBC to resign from the CBI after tonight’s dinner with David Cameron is deemed to be political by the Electoral Commission. Perhaps they should also be obliged to register as active campaigners for BT?

  133. liz says:

    O/T – my daughter’s postal vote form turned up – she requested one as she wasn’t sure if she would be on holiday.

    On the front of it, it states ‘Do NOT open this envelope if it is not addressed to you – it is an offence.’

    Boy I am quaking in my boots, it is obvious that this could lead to fraud.

  134. T222Deracha says:

    Talking about lies…I remember my dear late dad ranting about the hydro-electric schemes built in the late fifties early sixties. He used to say “We were told we were making electricity for nothing using the power of our water and that we would get free electricity.”
    Another benefit of the UK Union, lying for decades, I fear a lot of Scots must suffer from Stockholm Syndrome, due in no small part to the lying Scottish media.

  135. Tam Jardine says:

    I’ve just worked out why they put the oil on the same graph as pensioners – they are comparing what they consider to be our 2 main burdens and saying one burden is increasing and the other decreasing – now it all makes sense!

    Ah – poor auld Scotland, never mind voting No – should we no all just top ourselves? The positive case for the union: vote no to try and mitigate our inevitable decline… That’s a winner you’ve got there Blair – use that on the next telly ad if you like.

  136. The thing that really boils ma balls is that ALL these Scottish Pensioners who are determined to vote “NO” next month is that they will only listen to – and “BELIEVE” – Krash and Flipper but totally IGNORE every other sensible route in the IndyRef Debate.

    Retirement does not mean the brain is automatically redundant, although that is what seems to have happened.

    Who is it they “TRUST” more than themselves.?
    Alexander (2 x off)

    Seven of whom have zero future in Scotland or anywhere.

    Dementia is a better choice than any of the above.

  137. DaveDee says:

    Apparently Jim Murphy was hit by an egg today, no doubt just what he has been hoping for.

  138. Another wee gem this time from the YES Doon Valley page.

  139. heedtracker says:

    Cheap hydro electric is one of the great frauds on Scotland. Look at the Royal Mail sell off fraud, that’s just the latest shyst, puling even more wealth of our country into the hands of the richest. Scottish Water is on their list too.

  140. Wasn’t it Cupar – do you think I can afford to be chucking good food at bampots??

    I’m off home to cry cos he told me I wouldn’t be a EU Citizen after a YES vote …. even Mings eyebrows lurched skyward at that wee porkie.

  141. Refernce the egg and Jim Murphy. no-one threw eggs at him in Cupar. So where was he when the incident happened.

  142. Wasn’t in Cupar – do you think I can afford to be chucking good food at bampots??

    I’m off home to cry cos he told me I wouldn’t be a EU Citizen after a YES vote …. even Mings eyebrows lurched skyward at that wee porkie.

  143. Ron Burgundy says:

    Wanton wampum

    Too many do not known that the British economy is a basket case because the media does not tell them and they in many cases have not got the wits to find out.

    It will come as a colossal shock to many that post NO the OAP will be means tested. Christ after all Westminster is not going to let these better of OAP’s pish it away on timeshares and golf fees.
    They will form part of the great Scottish mental breakdown inside 2 years of a NO vote.

  144. heedtracker says: how UKOK elite kept their lands and mansions and avoided stuff like’s ok though, the richest people on the planet that own the UK are frightfully nice. Taxes are for the plebs

  145. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @DaveDee –

    Hit by an egg? Was it still inside the chicken? And was the chicken frozen?

  146. Big Jock says:

    Lying is part of the political process at Westminster. Iraq,Cash for questions,expenses peerages. So RUK lying to Scotland is not wrong to them. It just slides off their tongues when they speak. Dont look for morals or scruples with no they are unreachable and immoral. It’s not nice lies they tell to embelish a story. It’s downright dirty and irrational lies that they will one day come to regret. They wont regret if they win as the ends will justify the means.

  147. Big Jock says:

    Regards Murphy. Was it a free range egg or a battery hen egg? Either way waste of a good egg could have gone to one of the may foodbanks in Fife. Murphy doesn’t deserve any more freebies.

  148. Murphy slated in Motherwell, Wishaw, Blantyre, now getting it in Fife all used to be Labour strongholds.

    Do you think the Labour politicians are starting to realise ”is there job at westminster safe” i’ll go further the Labour MSPs too?

  149. Indy_Scot says:

    I cannot believe they are trying to frighten old people, just so they can continue to fund a life style that many of us could only dream of.

    Absolutely disgraceful.

  150. I hope it was an addled egg.

  151. DaveDee says:

    Re Murphy, apparently it happened in Kirkcaldy


  152. john king says:

    My wife was standing next to the egg guy who watched him egg Murphy and then turned and walked away with a smirk on his face,

    I asked Murphy how many jobs would be lost in Faslane, but although I went with no identifying yes badges I think he sensed a trap and prattled on about defence job while my wife who was standing at the opposite side from me (so they couldnt see we were a double act) was haranging him to “answer the man,give him numbers” but it fell flat, I was going to ask him how 8000 or 11000 (depends who you ask) could fit into a 450 car carpark,
    but when he started on about how much labour had done ie introducing the minimum wage, I retorted AND ATOS, AND THE BEDROOM TAX, one of his goon started manhandling a kid of about 18 because he held a leaflet up to Murphy, at that I lost my temper and advised the guy to let go of the kid or he’ll have a riot on his hands.

  153. CameronB Brodie says:

    Cognitive dissonance can have a paralyzing effect on the intellect. I don’t think we are up against ‘Too Stupid’, though that definitely applies to some. I think we are up against basic human psychology, particularly in respect of the isolated voter who does not have access to social media.

  154. CameronB Brodie says:

    As well as layers of built up prejudice and bigotry.

  155. Juteman says:

    When does the Murph come to Dundee?
    Licks his lips in anticipation.

  156. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’m popping up in the next couple of days, so might bump into you. 😉

  157. ronnie anderson says:

    How many supermarkets sell 2 x loaves for a £1, now Seagulls just love swooping to get a feed,just saying in case the Manny on the Irn Bru crates makes a appearance.

  158. Mealer says:

    Correction.In the article there is a quote attributed to …Pat,pensioner.It should of course read…Pet pensoner

  159. DaveDee says:

    john king says:

    28 August, 2014 at 5:00 pm

    My wife was standing next to the egg guy who watched him egg Murphy and then turned and walked away with a smirk on his face

    Any chance it was a false flegg incident ?

  160. fred blogger says:

    the cost of eggs and all!
    which reminds me, i forgot to buy eggs today, a double whammy.

  161. john king says:

    During a heavy shower before Murphy arrived, I kept a distance on the high street from the wife so they wouldnt know we were together, and she found herself standing beside his entourage, and they all scurried into a doorway of a closed down shoeshop,

    when she was drawn into a heated argument when one them (an English guy mid to late 30’s with a beard)
    who said “it was the miners own fault the Scottish mines closed down when they priced themselves out of a job and they caused the price of coal to be uneconomic making it cheaper to bring it in from Poland”,

    she ripped that clown a new one,
    the others with him kinda shuffled away from her,
    oh I wish I had been in that doorway,

    the men stood and looked down towards the YES shop calling the people gathered there “dolebirds, scum, maniacs”.

  162. john king says:

    I asked her, dave dee, she says naw she thinks he was a yesser.

  163. @Dave Dee – I wonder too. If the chap had been arrested you would think no but if the guy just walked away and no police action it makes you wonder if it wasn’t one of the No boys and it was staged.

    I hope though that Yessers don’t do anything like that in the future, publicity would be bad for us.

  164. YESGUY says:

    George Quin

    Welcome to the family of Wingers. You are most welcome sir.

    James Caithness

    Brilliant clips . Got a wee smile back on.

    John King.

    I wish i had been there with you John. To be fair tho, my single biggest fault is my temper, especially when they lie and spin their pish.

    Far too many of the Labour hoodies think they can push us around. If i saw a kid being man handled , i would have lost the plot.

    They’re supposed to represent us. Supposed to listen to us about our complaints. I was a labour supporter all my life and now i HATE the party with such a passion i couldn’t sit in the same area as any of them . They have sold their souls to a WM that lies , cheats and scares our people . I had to chase one away last week telling scare stories to my wee pensioner next door. Disgraceful tactics from the party that claims to represent the ordinary folk.


    Other than the usual scares , it’s another day the union hammers a nail into it’s own coffin.

    Oh to be there when they bury the party so i can piss on their collective graves.

    tick tock unionists.

  165. galamcennalath says:

    DaveDee says:
    “Any chance it was a false flegg incident ?”

    I was wondering that. Was he smiling because he was an idiot and didn’t appreciate that was a stupid thing to do? Or was he an agent provocateur who had just achieved his mission successfully?

  166. CameronB Brodie says:

    The first I’ve heard of it, but will it not have been captured on CCTV?

  167. Ian Brotherhood says:


    See what I did there? Eh? Eh?

  168. Ian Brotherhood says:

    The yolk’s on him.

    Geddit? Eh?

  169. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Why did Jim Murphy cross the road?

  170. Jim Mitchell says:

    Just imagine, if the YES campaign held a meeting where it had as speakers Alex Salmond and John Swinney and then it was touted that the most impressive speaker there was some ex-sports commentator.

    We YES supporters would never here the end of of it and quite frankly we and the YES campaign would deserve any criticism and ridicule that came our way.

    The opposition however, courtesy of the front page of today’s Daily Record actually boast of this happening in the case of Archie McPherson stealing the show from those two good friends Gordon and Alistair at their high powered meeting yesterday.

    You couldn’t make it up!

  171. Schrödinger's cat says:

    If you check Disraeli,s original one nation speech, he never mentions Britain, ever. Only England, miliband is hedging his bets, after the yes vote, he won’t need to change any of his campaign literature

  172. Dan Huil says:

    Perfidious Albumen.

  173. CameronB Brodie says:

    To show support for Israel?

  174. john king says:

    boom boom

  175. CameronB Brodie says:

    Schrödinger’s cat
    One Nation fascism sold as English socialism, for when the plebs think they have control over real power (INGSOC)

  176. Ian Brotherhood says:

    …because he needed some eggsercise.

  177. Ian Brotherhood says:

    When is he going to visit Yolker?

  178. john king says:

    “When is he going to visit Yolker?”

    Apparently hes going there twice,
    it’ll be a double yolker,

  179. call me dave says:

    Stop! Stop! I’m suffering from shell shock! 🙂

    Seriously though this is going too f… Agh! He deserves it.

  180. Ian Brotherhood says:

    From now on he’ll be standing on egg boxes, which is nice – they’ll absorb all the sound and we’ll be spared his drivel.

  181. To James Caithness –

    I apologise for tarring ALL pensioners with the same “NO” brush but I`ve watched many pensioners on tv who admit AS WON the debate but THEY will still vote no.?

    Many YESSERS on this and other websites are also Pensioners who have actually done the work of investigation and came to a natural conclusion – “YES”.

    The one thing that unites the majority on this website is our sense of social justice.

    What we have now, and extended long into the future is Foodbanks.
    TTPI engaged by ConDems and Mibbeland means NHS Scotland wrecked.
    ATOS arbitrarily starving clients of the Welfare State – the list is long.
    And promises to get even longer.If they vote NO.

    Despicably, Someone`s son, someone`s daughter, someone – Pensioners – grandchildren are being kept alive by FOODBANKS.

    “YES” – STOPS IT ALL in it`s tracks.

  182. CameronB Brodie says:

    Nah, we’ll be walking on eggshells now. Aye right. :0

  183. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Never mind Jim. Get a fresh shirt on, have a nice hot cuppa, and have a listen to this. It’ll cheer you up, and energise you for the next leg of your marathon tour. I’m not yolking!

    ‘The Egg Song’ –

  184. mary vasey says:

    Cynical highlander no an ” extraordinary” ordinary mum… like most mums 😎

  185. CameronB Brodie says:

    Sorry, can’t resist. If the tune is good enough for Kubrick. 🙂

  186. Iain says:

    Och, you now how the saying goes… “Lies, damn lies, statistics and completely and arbitrarily made up and unrelated numbers plotted against each other in a half-arsed attempt to hoodwink the population into swallowing something a 1 year actuarial student would cry in despair over”. I think this last one is copyrighted by Westminster.

  187. fred blogger says:

    i’m english born and a pensioner..i want indy for scotland, so much it fcuking hurts.
    (i must admit, i am also of irish stock)
    i spoke to a grumpy guy in a shop today, his demeanor totally changed when i gave him a weebluebook.
    i said depending on your view point it may be full of useful info or not (or words to that affect),he broke into a smile. yes yes, leave it here, i’ll show the rest of the staff.
    people are ravenous for reliable grassroots info, he immediately trusted it.

  188. to WantonWampum.

    No worrie. Please believe I was only pointing out what I had seen. You see things in different places. This is why this YES movement is awesome. Through our sharing of our experiences and observations and ideas we are winning the argument by speaking to everyone.

    It must have been something like this after the first world war when the Labour movement got really started.
    I personally think this movement is bigger than then but both equally honourable and right.

  189. Grouse Beater says:

    Wee Duggie Alexander – the man with a large potato in each cheek – said on BBC Radio this morning that the number of our pensioners will explode just as our oil is running out.

    I would think any pensioner listening to him will think to themselves, if they live another ten years they’ll feel bloody blessed, never mind arrive at 2050 still breathing.

  190. Ken500 says:

    Scottish taxes paid for (UK) gov pensions just now £6Billion, without the Oil revenues. £3Billion surplus going to Westminster. £4Billion in loan repayments on money not borrowed and spent in Scotland. £1.5Billion on Trident/redundant weapons and illegal wars. £1.5Billion Could be saved on a tax on ‘loss leading’ drink.

    = £10Billion. Pensions could be higher in Scotland.

    Pensioners in Scotland die earlier. 9% of pensioners work in Scotland. 6% in the rest of the UK. Pensioners pay tax.

    Pensions in UK will be £140 a week. Pensioners need £180 per week, just to stand still, with cuts in welfare benefits ie housing benefit etc. Pensioners in Scotland have lost £30million a year.

  191. In Cupar today Murphy mention this £6bn black hole that is supposed to be in the SG finances. It’s also been said by other BT politicians.

    Who is it that has caused any black hole if there is one? We get the block sum from westminster

  192. George S Gordon says:

    This unpolished turd arrived through my letterbox today. I particularly like the image of a very smiley JK Rowling on the front, followed by complete scaremongering on the inside. The lies, particularly about pensions, need to be scotched (there’s a good word). I’ve tweeted that to Joan McAlpine who writes in the Daily Record and hope they continue publishing her excellent debunking articles. Maybe Wings could encourage her further.

  193. John says:

    Kevin @2:06
    When I phoned Bitter Together, the employee who answered the phone told me that there was a pension pot and that it was general taxation and everyone was paying when they paid VAT. When I suggested Alistair, Darling was lying/wrong in telling Big Lek in STV debate that there was no pot he found a meeting to go to.

  194. alex livingstone says:

    No mob in our street
    tonight.Went to the people downstairs spoke to them for a long time,never came to my door,I am very upset wanted to have a nice chat with them as well.I havent even got any stickers or flags out.House up the road has plenty of stickers in their windows and a saltire on the Tv aerial mast.Doubt they will be getting a visit either.

  195. john king says:

    Alex Livingstone says
    “I live in Ayrshire – “Orange County”.”

    Flag police can you visit this reprobate? 🙂

  196. john king says:

    Well that worked well didnt it?
    lets try again
    I havent even got any stickers or flags out.

    Flag police can you visit this reprobate? 🙁

  197. John D aka Nkosi says:

    There is bollocks and there is bollocks

  198. john king says:

    Ian Brotherhood says
    “The Egg Song’ – ”

    Im, Im not really sure what to say after that, apart from

    ” 365 days I really really love you eh, so”

  199. Robert Peffers says:

    @HandandShrimp says: 28 August, 2014 at 2:14 pm:Much is made of Scotland’s “rapidly” aging population.

    Aw! Whit nixt!

    I’ve been around a long time and am blessed with an excellent memory and I’m very observant. I was born before WWII. Now here are a few of the things I saw and remembered. I remember the men & women coming home from the war and the very great need for homes. Enter the pre-fab and the employment that involved. Then Britain had been bombed to bits and we needed power – enter the national grid, (first cross border link in the World crossed from the Lothians and over into England.

    We had no haulage contractors so old army vehicles were pressed into service but next came, “British Road Services”. The Rail service was decimated and out of date and we got British Rail, We already had the GPO that included a lot more than the Post Office. The nationalised Electricity Board, Gas Board, Coal Board, British Steel and council run Water boards. In 1946 they nationalised the BofE.

    There were a few more but here’s the thing. Some of those public services were loss making and some were very profitable. The whole idea was that the Government offset the much needed loss makers with the profitable ones and the people got a fair deal. Then came the Tories who began to sell off the profitable nationalised things and that left the loss makers to go to the wall.

    We had now began the slide towards the rich grabbing the things that once belonged to all the people and the United Kingdom began to slide towards the crash that we see now. Then other things were going on but not being noticed in the other more obvious changes. Consider we had not even landed upon the Moon and robotics were beginning to be developed. There were articles in the papers and on that new fangled TV about the automation. Some said that robots would take over the hard work and free people up to enjoy a new life of leisure. They warned that we had to change out outlook as it was obvious the working class would need to be redeployed or how could they earn a living?

    Well now we know what the governments of Westminster were up to and why Labour are now Tory too. Self interest and GREED. This present upset is nothing new and the only place in the United Kingdom with a chance of doing something right is right here and now and all around us. Westminster is never going to change as long as there is Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to leech off and bleed dry. Mind you they are slowly retreating into the city state of London and our brothers and sisters north of the Watford Gap will be in the same fix as the rest of us. The best thing we can do for them is to vote YES and take our freedom. We can set the path for others to follow and follow they will.

    Now as for that claptrap up there/|\ It is the same old lies and distortions that it always is – designed to lull the more stupid, gullible and those who are getting a share of the loot. The rest of us have awakened to the con. I’ve seen enough during my life to know that this con of the aged being a burden we cannot support will look quite different a little further down the road. Like when they told us we would all lead lives of leisure while the robots did the work. I said it then and I’ll say it again.
    That’ll be richt!

  200. CameronB Brodie says:

    The referendum on Scottish independence is not a vote about Scotland,” Danny Dorling writes in his essay on page 26. “It is a vote about London.” More than for any other comparable European country, the capital of the United Kingdom – Europe’s only true megacity – dominates national life. With just 13 per cent of the population, London produces 22 per cent of the UK’s wealth; through major projects such as Crossrail, it swallows a disproportionate share of its infrastructure funding. The Institute for Public Policy Research estimates that per-capita transport spending in London is 500 times as much as that in the north-east of England.

    London’s economic dominance ensures that investing in the capital will produce a higher return than doing so in other regions. That makes it difficult to justify investing elsewhere. This logic merely tightens London’s stranglehold. Consequently, when the Yes Scotland campaign warns Scots of the dangers of voting No, it makes references to being ruled not by the English but by London. Indeed, in his New Statesman lecture in March, Alex Salmond likened London to a dark star, “inexorably sucking in resources, people and energy”……

    If we are serious about reducing London’s stranglehold over the United Kingdom, trusting to the free market will never be enough.

  201. TJenny says:

    Robet Peffers – and don’t forget we were promised jet packs too. 🙂

    (ps – I think I have a wee crush on you RP. 😉 )

  202. Graeme Doig says:

    Nicely done Stu.

    That’s all i can say. The rest would just be another huge sweary rant at these lying …

  203. Conan_the_Librarian says:

    @Dan Huil

    Perfidious Albumen.


  204. Robert Peffers says:

    @WantonWampum. says: 28 August, 2014 at 4:07 pm:

    “In Scotland we ALL know pensioners and others who spend an entire Saturday morning ploughing through the horse race form, football form, greyhound racing form etc, invariably to lighten their own wallets and bulge the bags of bookies.

    Get lost you ignorant twit. This forum has many pensioners who are SNP or otherwise have supported an independent Scotland. I do not drink alcohol, bet on anything, do not smoke and have been a Scottish independence supporter as a boy in 1946.

    We get enough slagging off from Tory/Lib/Dem and Labour liggers without the likes of you slagging us off. Stop the sweeping generalisations NOW

  205. Conan_the_Librarian says:

    @Robert Peffers.

    There are many trolls trying to feed upon here.

    It is a pleasure, to see them dance for titbits flung to them; dinnae gie them puddin too…

  206. Robert Peffers says:

    @WantonWampum. says:28 August, 2014 at 4:39 pm:

    “Dementia is a better choice than any of the above.”

    Listen up, numptie.
    Dementiua is not just a disease of the old.
    Stop the sweeping generalisations.
    If it were not for the more elderly people in Scotland the SNP, and hence the referendum, would never have happened.

  207. Robert Peffers says:

    @DaveDee says: 28 August, 2014 at 4:39 pm:

    “Apparently Jim Murphy was hit by an egg today, no doubt just what he has been hoping for”

    Yes I saw the clip on my mates TV. The guy who threw the egg(s), was clearly seen so they will probably get him – unless of course, it is a set up

    Strange we get two different unacceptable incidents on the same day?

    Is this what some of us have thought might be the next despartate fling of the No Better Together campaign of shame?

  208. fontmosslicker says:

    Sorry. Didnt have time to read the responses before nightshift.
    How does the extensions to the pension age over the years affect this pensioner “timebomb”?
    It should slow the effect, no?

  209. Robert Peffers says:

    @James Caithness says: 28 August, 2014 at 4:43 pm:

    “Refernce the egg and Jim Murphy. no-one threw eggs at him in Cupar. So where was he when the incident happened.

    It was Kirkcaldy.
    Note it happens Crash Gordon’s Constituency?
    Lots of loyal Labour folks around there.

    Thing is there was a clear view of the guy so they will get him unless, of course, it was indeed a set-up. Strange we get two different incidents of apparent reaction to the NO campaigners in the same day. I may be wrong but this stinks of Better Together dirty tricks.

  210. Robert Peffers says:

    @CameronB Brodie says: 28 August, 2014 at 5:19 pm:

    “The first I’ve heard of it, but will it not have been captured on CCTV?

    Cameron, it was on TV news – I was watching the news in my pal’s house and was really paying much attention and didn’t mote what channel he was on. It did show the thrower and clearly he could be identified.

  211. Robert Peffers says:

    @TJenny says: 28 August, 2014 at 8:36 pm:

    “Robet Peffers – and don’t forget we were promised jet packs too.

    (ps – I think I have a wee crush on you RP. )

    Ach! Lassie, I’ve had two much loved wives, (not at the same time you understand) and lost both of them far too quickly. That’s enough for any man to suffer. How many times can you survive a broken heart?

  212. Joe says:

    The oil runs out whether we’re in the union or out of it.
    Apart from everything else being bollox, let’s look at the intention of their message. Oil is running out and people are getting older, so, pensioners in an independent Scotland would be screwed.
    Well, their message actually says the opposite. Scotland has less than 10% of the total population of UK. Within the UK the oil revenues are spread between 60 million people. In an independent Scotland a big chunk of the 90% of the oil revenues not shared with the rest of the UK could be banked thereby offsetting the loss to the population of a dwindling resource.
    What their message says is the the UK is gubbed, but an independent Scotland would be pretty much okay. It is of course, as we have said, a load of bollox, but they might at least have given it a bit more thought instead of shooting themselves in the foot … again.

  213. Cuilean says:

    If Scots allegedly die sooner than those in ‘ither pairts’ of these isles, why is our percentage of elderly, allegedly increasing faster than those other areas which, supposedly, are blessed with a longer life than the Scots?

  214. Wee Jimmy says:

    This reminds me of the correlation doesn’t imply causation fallacy. Here are some cracking examples:

    I wonder which one BT will use in their next leaflet? Defo not number 3 🙂

  215. Donald says:

    Hi there

    I’m voting YES and am genrally a fan on Wings Over Scotland and the good Reverend.

    This articles pretty bad though.

    Oil is a large part of tax revenue and pensions is a large part of public spending. In fact the two things are very much at the heart of an independent Scotland’s future fiscal position.

    To have any reasonable debate you need to try to estimate them. While this might be difficult to do with a great degree if accuracy you can make some kind of reasonable predictions – it’s no good to just say we have no way of knowing what these will be, we’ll not even consider it.

    Question the estimates of both. But don’t say they’re unrelated and don’t say it’s stupid to try to estimate them.

  216. Wee Jimmy says:

    Hi Donald,

    I commend you on sounding very convincing as a human. The deliberate typo was a nice touch. Who manufactured you and what is your creation date and serial number?

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