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Wings Over Scotland


The unpalatable harvest

Posted on August 28, 2014 by

One of the most commonly-observed facets of the independence referendum so far has been the lack of a real grassroots “Better Together” campaign, and as a historian of Scottish popular politics I’ve found myself pondering why there wasn’t one.

togetheralone3

It’s not like there aren’t thousands of Scots who passionately believe in the Union and will be voting No, and are perfectly capable of arguing their case. We all know some – I certainly do, both family and friends. But there’s no organised grassroots campaigning of any serious note. Tiny handfuls of Labour activists, some of them shipped up from England and paid, have done almost all of the donkey work so far.

But as a historian of Scottish popular politics I should have an explanation, shouldn’t I? And when I had a think about it, something occurred to me.

In the reform crisis of 1865-66, there was an organised opposition in Scotland to those who wished to see an extension of the vote. In the 1884 franchise agitation, the same organised opposition turned out in their communities, chapping on doors, urging their neighbours not to get involved in the democracy movement, and to voice their support for hereditary privilege and the House of Lords.

(They even started riots in favour of the Lords in places like Kilbarchan and Bo’ness, and attacked pro-democracy meetings in places like Kilmarnock and Glasgow).

They turned out in 1909-11, again to defend the House of Lords. They were certainly heavily involved in campaigning in Scotland against women’s suffrage in the 1890s and 1900s, especially in places like Dundee and Edinburgh. They were also used in the 1920s and 1930s in the anti-trades union movement in Scotland. They were even involved, albeit to a lesser extent, in the 1997 devolution referendum.

They are the shock troops, the foundation stones of Scottish conservatism (and I very much stress small-c conservatism, not big-c Conservatism, although the two did and do often coincide). I am, of course, talking about the Orange Order.

orangegreengairs

The lodges of Scotland organised campaigning committees, they marched, they hung their banners on their buildings, and they argued, passionately, for their case in their communities throughout all of these political crises.

Unfortunately for “Better Together”, the lodges have gone the way of cigarettes and sunbathing without lotion: they’ve become socially unacceptable. Thus, they cannot be recruited into the service of the Union – indeed, the Order’s attempts to lend their support have been wincingly rebuffed (at least in public) by the official No campaign.

“A spokesman for Better Together, which is the official campaign against Scottish independence, attempted to distance itself from the Orange Order.

He said: ‘This organisation is not part of our campaign and never will be.'”

The Order’s large-scale participation in the referendum campaign has been restricted to a single rally in Edinburgh just before the vote, which the No camp is dreading.

They still exist at the margins of the debate – hundreds of No banners were carried at this year’s Orange marches. But they can’t be seen to be too close, too forward in the campaign. The No camp’s only abundant fruit is left to rot on the vine.

It must be painful to have such a sizeable force willing to work for you, yet be unable to deploy it. But make no mistake – the reason that No lacks a grassroots campaign is because it can’t use the Orangemen, and the Orangemen are its only fruit.

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    211 to “The unpalatable harvest”

    1. heedtracker says:

      Orangemen are its only fruit. My name is Jeanette Winterson and I’m sueing.

      The OO is weirdly absent from the debate but when you have the BBC and all other media corps pounding the BetterTogether drum, you can afford to choose your friends.

    2. It is a weird thing to look at on line polls that anyone who chooses to can make their mark on (without any potential for the much cited repercussion of car scratching or window panning) and find a conspicuous absence of any substantial support for ‘No’. It leaves you scratching your head at the ‘real’ polls (even ours).

      http://flylogical.azurewebsites.net/WebApps/SKRV/Results.aspx?Q=INDYREF NO – 9%

      http://www.ukvote.org/ NO – 7%

      http://www.scotlandsvote.com/ NO 2.6% (not 26. two point six)

      There’s nothing stopping anyone voting at these sites but the Nay Sayers just aren’t there.

    3. Jim Thomson says:

      I totally agree with that analysis. What I don’t get though is the complete lack of “interested” people around their stalls.

      The example to which I can relate was the BT stall at the Arbroath Sea Fest a couple of weeks ago. It had very few attendees compared to the Yes and the Wings stalls.

      They simply are scared to engage in any conversation that doesn’t involve any mention of “SNP”, “Alec Salmond”, Nicola Sturgeon” and “Tell me why we’re already Better Together”. If you challenge them to provide a narrative that excludes any of those phrases, they’re stumped.

      Basically, they have nothing to offer the thinking (or even the unthinking) public.

      The closer we get to the 18th, the fewer (genuinely passer-by) people seem to want to listen to them. They even have a struggle filling modest venues with the invited faithful.

    4. James Sneddon says:

      I don’t think it helps that a sizable number of orangemen are part of the ‘Orangemen for Indy’ twitter group. One orangeman explained it to me as they were ‘monarchists not unionists’ Which kind of makes sense when you consider there are thousands of orangemen in countries such as Canada and Australia. I think the march planned for Edinburgh will have more bandsmen than orangemen and even more of depressingly a pile of drunken ‘followers’. Interesting analysis nevertheless

    5. CyberNiall says:

      They have nothing to offer at BT stalls. This is as good as it gets. All they can do is drum fear and uncertainty into the debate. Every answer to every question now mentions currency.

    6. Juteman says:

      I know two Orangemen that are voting Yes. Most folk are educated enough to think for themselves these days.

    7. Dan Huil says:

      The No campaign declares itself distant from the OO. It will still happily take their votes though.

    8. kalmar says:

      I read somewhere about a leaked BBC memo which stated an intention not to cover a big Orange march, upcoming before the 18th. For the reasons cited (and on the basis that the BBC is part of the No campaign, of course)

    9. Joseph says:

      I think the OO are the loose cannons in this whole debate, if there was ever one group that could cause the most upset and fear of violence etc then its the Orange Order. I personally hope that in an independent Scotland The OOs activities are reduced right down to zero cause they cause division in our communities.

    10. Nigel says:

      I have wondered at the lack of enthusiasm from the no side. Few stickers, even fewer posters in windows and very little interest in the Better Together stands at the Nairn Show and the Nairn Highland Games.

      I am yet to come across canvassers campaigning for no in my area, even though a couple of confirmed no voters keep promising to hit the streets. Now, the lack of posters in windows may be due to the lack of opportunity to get one, unlike the Yes side where we are spreading stickers and Yes posters around like confetti. But, still, why were our stands ‘mobbed’, resulting in having virtually no material left at the end of the day and the BT one is not?

      Even the very few No Thanks banners put up on lamp posts are done by contractors and badly at that – they are so loose that they slide down the post!

      It is strange, the lack of appetite for a real debate and real campaigning. When out on the streets, the few confirmed no voters I do meet are angry, shrill and becoming increasingly aggressive. They simply do not want to engage in debate at all. But they are not campaigning!

      http://nairnyes.wordpress.com/

    11. donald anderson says:

      Outside of F**** the Pope. No Surrender, etc. They are as useless as Yohann Lamont, or most celebrities without a script. Try engaging the average Labourite on a conversation about socialism, or their own disgraceful history in office and they are stumped and can give the same foul mouthed lumpen replies as the LOL or Green Brits of Parkheid.

    12. Jim Thomson says:

      OT – Jim Murphy has been egged according to BBC news – unfortunately the article isn’t appearing. A 404 error – wonder why they’re not wanting it seen.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/scotland/

      I think that’s not good that he’s been egged. It will be used aginst the Yes side. Of course there’s nothing to say that it wasn’t a contrived egging by the naws. #JustSaying

    13. heedtracker says:

      Flutes and drums or fear and lies pumped into Scottish homes day after day, hour by hour, tough choices

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28952197

    14. YESGUY says:

      Interesting read Mark.

      But you forgot the MAIN reason why there is no grass roots campaigners for NO. They don’t exist because they have nothing to offer. No benefit, no positive reasons , nothing but scares and smears.

      They have also lost the plot attacking A.Salmond. He is now looked upon by most as the underdog and we all love an underdog. They cannot see past SNP even though thousands are saying YES and are most are non SNP.

      If they used the OO to campaign they would have lost day one. Scotlands YES movement is inclusive , the OO are not.

      Thanks for the read though. It’s going to be interesting in future when we look into the history of the YES movement and see it’s diversity and how the unionists were stuck in a time warp. Arguing for their Lords and Masters.

      At least then i can tell my grand kids. Aye i voted YES and gift to you OUR COUNTRY . Now go and do a better job than i with it. And you know what . They will. I have every confidence in oor young folk.

    15. Tom Foyle says:

      There’s a “no” stall in my local indoor market. I’ve been past it a few times recently, intending to nip in and have a debate. But I never seem to have the opportunity. It’s always shut.

    16. Jim Thomson says:

      O/T – Jim Murphy link now up

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28969671

      Not read it yet so not going to comment.

    17. Nana Smith says:

      It appears UKOK think voters need help placing their cross.

      http://i.imgur.com/aIDNE83h.jpg

      Also on twitter some are saying the postal votes were delivered alongside BT leaflets.

    18. Az says:

      LOL lol

    19. liz says:

      I got a No leaflet through the door full of the usual lies – what about my pension, you will not be able to use the £ – Blah, blah from Scottish (sic) Labour.

      I wrote dissing all their lies on the leaflet with links – I no it won’t make any difference but it’s a free-post back to Labour Bunker HQ – therefore I’ve posted it back.

    20. G H Graham says:

      It’s the Jockholm Syndrome. Really, it is. A nation has been transfixed if not drunk on the allure of a powerful superstate that is decades past it’s sell by date.

      And to keep the masses transfixed, the Establishment with due help from it’s media barons & Reich Ministry of Propaganda, the BBC, have piped into our living rooms propaganda on an industrial scale.

      But late 20th century technology has made the job of broadcasting & distributing propaganda successfully much, much harder if not, now impossible. And it is difficult to imagine how this referendum could have been won by YES even 20 years ago.

      The Orange Order then is yet another symbol of a dead Empire. Stuck in a vindictive past, not even the mainstream Unionists want them on their side, such is the progress & effectiveness of the democritisation of information.

      Nevertheless, there remains a hard core of backward looking people, still fawning for British glory past & what might have been.

      But the truth has been outed and the British State is seen for what it truly is; a financially & morally bankrupt institution, still run by a small club of elitistes who are drawing down all the wealth that remains.

      To protect itself, it has shrunk back to London like an oasis for the superrich, while the rest of us in the provinces are accused of causing the system to fail.

      There isn’t a billboard in the country big enough to paper on the scale of the irony.

    21. heedtracker says:

      Fear, lies and scorn pouring, don’t forget the scorn pouring BBC style over Scotland running Scotland

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28965482

    22. liz says:

      Re No Leaflet – I know etc – it was a Freudian slip.

    23. heedtracker says:

      http://78.110.165.228/index.php/scottish-news/9650-bbc-facing-calls-to-resign-from-cbi-as-dinner-deemed-an-official-no-campaign-event

      What BBC in Scotland are really up to and why their BetterTogether man at Holyrood is pouring his scorn today, or is he deflecting something extremely serious as per, deflection, scorn, mock, fear and lies, all for only £150 of your British only pounds.

    24. JimnArlene says:

      @YESGUY
      “Aye I voted YES and gift to you OUR COUNTRY.”
      Love it.

    25. Capella says:

      That picture shows men in uniform marching for a political cause. Was this not made illegal after the British Union of Fascists in the 1930s? Perhaps that’s why the more “respectable” wing of the unionist campaign are distancing themselves (and the BBC not filming the Edinburgh march).
      Public Order Act 1936
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Order_Act_1936

    26. YESGUY says:

      Nana Smith

      Here we go again , wipe screen, dry off keyboard, wipe my eyes and the side of the wall where my tea shot out.

      I really did think that was a spoof. But it’s not . They really are desperate. (shakes heid and wipes eyes again)

      Time for my ” wee lie doon”

      Thank you

    27. G. Campbell says:

      BBC LIARS UPDATE: Exciting 3 Frame animated GIF!

      http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4gPjsTUF1Eg/U_9XvP_q2tI/AAAAAAAAAUM/7g7rzfNViVk/s1600/BBC_liars.gif

      It took the BBC over 24 hours to remove the lies from their “130 businesses” oppose independence article, but the time stamp remains the same. Worse still, the surreptitious edits have sent the story back to the top of “scottish independence” searches on Google.

      TUESDAY & WEDNESDAY:
      26 August 2014 Last updated at 22:17

      Scottish independence: Firms question ‘Yes’ vote business case

      More than 130 businesses have signed a letter saying the business case for Scottish independence “has not been made”.

      The letter is signed by business leaders

      THURSDAY:
      26 August 2014 Last updated at 22:17

      Scottish independence: Business leaders question ‘Yes’ vote business case

      More than 130 business leaders have signed a letter saying the business case for Scottish independence “has not been made”.

      The letter is signed in a personal capacity by business leaders

    28. donald anderson says:

      Naw Nana, that’s too hard for them. They will have to fiddle it.

    29. YESGUY says:

      Derek Bateman has a cracking piece on the so called Businesses that signed up for the union cause. What a surprise they’re all corrupt firms , found out for dodgy dealings.

      If you want a reprisal to the BBc article got have a wee peek at Derekbateman.com .

      Now there is a writer.

    30. Zen Broon says:

      Actually I think many people realise there is something slightly shameful and sleekit about voting No and don’t want to be identified and/or challenged.

      Scottish Labour activists, left wing groups and trade unionists, the usual ground troops, know fine well if they engaged they would be simply hired guns for the Tories and London spiv capitalists. No wonder they are huddling down until it is all over.

      The No camp are putting a lot of reliance that the ‘air superiority’ of the BBC and MSM will deliver victory. We’ll see.

    31. highseastim says:

      @nigel

      Same in Lossiemouth Nigel, have yet to see any BT canvassers, maybe the YES badges on window and car are telling them, why bother!!

    32. Mealer says:

      The media have been telling NO voters that the whole things done and dusted.Perhaps that’s why they don’t feel a need to get out and work for the Tories.

    33. Ian Brotherhood says:

      What time is Cameron getting his dinner?

    34. Tattie-bogle says:

      Jim’s back covered in egg as opposed to shite coming out his mouth

    35. Murray McCallum says:

      Will there be a news block-out of this march?

      If so, that will be odd given it will be by far the biggest pro-better together gathering of the entire referendum campaign.

      The BBC could always pretend to be interviewing some Yes activists delivering leaflets to ensure balance.

    36. Marco McGinty says:

      Christ, the BBC report on Murphy’s egging, is an onslaught on the “disruptive” tactics employed by the Yes campaign. The manage to list a number of recent Yes attacks, verbal abuse, and pro-independence interruptions, yet there is no mention of BT attacks, verbal nonsense and interruptions, all from the No-voting Edinburgh academic on the Referendum debate, aired on the BBC’s second channel! The BBC – Biased, British and Corrupt!

      I have never met the man, and never read any of his papers, but I’m going to make an educated guess here, and say that Allan Crow and the Fife Free Press are both staunch no supporters!

    37. Alt Clut says:

      A nasty little paradox of our coming victory in the referendum is likely to be the appearance on the political stage of, albeit small, fascist groups clustering around various lurid visions of unionist ‘counter revolution’.

      A few will probably engage in pretty unpleasant direct action. Financial and other support is possible from existing fascist groups in rUK plus some of the more bitter shouting and threatening ‘Noes’ who are cropping up on the doorsteps now. It seems likely to me that individuals, at least, from the LOL will be drawn to this like flies to shit.

      When the time comes we must not ignore these people but for now it should not change anything that we do. Every one of us needs to summon up all of our reserves of strength and go flat out into the last push – we are winning and our hour is approaching !!

    38. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      But the man from del Monte says yes, and he’s an Orange Man!

      Been waiting for decades to get that one out.

    39. manandboy says:

      It may be that the Loyalist community
      are placing all their trust
      in the establishment media and Government
      which is actually on their side
      in spite of disclaimers to the contrary.

      Further, the polls have been claiming from the start
      that No has a large lead and will walk it.
      No need then to get in a tizz.
      It’s all taken care of.
      Fixed – in the usual way.

    40. heedtracker says:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28967904

      If this UKIP break out is in the BBC Scotland region teatime tv news at 6.30 I’ll eat Brian Taylor’s shorts, because we are bettertoghterBBC but we only tell you stuff to make you vote no.

    41. Just a quick calculation for tonight’s CBI dinner at the Hilton hotel. If it has been ‘scaled down’ to 230 people:

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11059963/CBI-Scotland-scales-back-annual-dinner-after-watchdog-rules-it-pro-UK-campaign-event.html

      And they can spend no more than £10,000 at the trough that works out at £43.48 per snout. This is at the Glasgow Hilton:

      http://www.mapdays.com/list/event.asp?id=720389

      http://www3.hilton.com/en/hotels/united-kingdom/hilton-glasgow-GLAHITW/index.html

      And we’re supposed to believe they can do a bash like this for less than £43.40 per head?

      Just asking.

    42. @Ian Brotherhood says:

      What time is Cameron getting his dinner?

      7.30 only his eggs will be hard boiled.

    43. James Westland says:

      One of the biggest problems for the No side is that the referendum is a choice between a positive and a negative. Its not as if there are several positive scenarios on offer.

      So they have the job of trying to talk up a negative.

      I suspect however that they are relying on the BBC / MSM doing their job for them…

    44. Brian says:

      I suspect it’s more to do with the fact that voting ‘No’ is, for many, as much as they want to do. A ‘No’ vote protects, as they see it, their status quo: jobs, pensions, mortgages and a no-worry life. They don’t want to shout about it or, in some cases, even talk about it. They might think at some level it’s unpatriotic and giving in to fear so don’t want to examine it too much.

      For many it must be intimidating to see lots of ‘Yes’ volunteers eager for discussions, open to new possibilities when they themselves haven’t engaged with the issues beyond a superficial I’m all right, Jack.

    45. The OO March on Sept 13th to retain Scottish jobs and Ancient Rights of Scots – in Belfast and Ulster.?

      Unsurprisingly, Ulster is versus Independence for Scotland, but to witness Scots marching – to keep their own children and grandchildren on the Buroo is despicable.

      Way beyond bigotry.

    46. galamcennalath says:

      lack of a proper grassroots “Better Together” campaign, and as a historian of Scottish popular politics I’ve found myself pondering why there wasn’t one.

      Simple. In a revolution there are only two sides, the elites and the common people.

      However, in all revolutions some of the common people side with the elites through self interest or because the are conservative. Never do ordinary people rise to keep their elites in place. Thus, no grassroots for Better Together.

    47. Ann says:

      The chances are that a YESSER will get the blame for the egging of Mr Murphy, but he’s had it coming since he has been heckled and riduculed at virtually every town and village he has visited.

      Once again it will be guilty until proven innocent and with our media we know what that will be.

      I reckon in the group of people that will have been some very, very disgruntled labour supporters who are totally brassed off and angry at what Scottish Labour are doing to Scotland and with whom they are in bed with.

      If he thought he was going to get an easy ride in Fife, he must be dumb, stupid or daft. Maybe all three.

      However, I think now is the time for everyone to take a step back, take a deep breath and let things calm down.

    48. misteralz says:

      Hey! The grassroots of the No campaign have given us this stirring anthem:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BT9Ify40I_U

      😀

    49. Wings Over Reality says:

      Alternatively, No voters have no emotional investment in the referendum and just want it over and done with.

      It’s emotionally stunted to believe everyone should share one’s own obsessions.

    50. Grouse Beater says:

      Stentorian Voice; megaphone not needed:

      There will be no more democracy for Scotland!
      Let the Scottish Government and its petty politicians know this-
      There are 500 men with their firearms certificates ready to fight for the cause.
      Behind them fire hundred more with their cycling certificates ready to do the same.
      And behind them five hundred more with their swimming proficiency certificates.
      We are ready and prepared to fight the damnable negativity of odious hope!
      No surrender!

    51. Jim Bob Mctavish says:

      Friends of mine have made this video, Wings and the Wee Blue Book get a mention. I think it is braw. Have a look…

      youtu.be/CZDRNJ6kg5k

    52. Karmanaut says:

      @Nana Smith

      The actual postal vote instructions sent out are chilling.
      If you look carefully at the bottom of the form shown in this link, you can see clear evidence of the real BT/UKOK message, which we first saw in the #PatronisingBTLady twitter tag.

      http://imgur.com/PyUEeac

      Perhaps this was a slip on their behalf?

    53. CameronB Brodie says:

      I was going to keep out of this one, as I don’t have much experience of sectarianism. I think I should say though, that whataboutery tends to produce heat rather than light, IMO.

      Fascinating history I had no previous knowledge of. Thanks Mark.

    54. Paula Rose says:

      Um – Orange men are they the ones who visit “tanning studios”?

    55. balgayboy says:

      I’ve noticed when I declare for YES in conversation’s I can always detect a no voter when they state sheepishly they are undecided, I think to myself that I maybe coming over a bit strong with my views but I always give them a fair chance to respond and make their case.

      I agree with Zen Broon that they seem to be actually somewhat embarrassed to voice their opinion or reasons for their choice. Their problem, not mine.

    56. Lochside says:

      The ‘loyal’ Orange Order are brilliant!…..at showing ordinary Scots what a slave mentality looks like…ragged arse tories sporting bowler hats just like their masters, City of London Wankers or paramilitary uniforms like some Rule Ruritania fancy dress parade for overgrown cretins.

      Let them march! More votes for ‘YES’!

    57. YESGUY says:

      Looks like our resident troll is back.

      What no slagging A. Salmond……?

      Theres a first.

      Come on Wings over Reality you know it makes sense

      Vote YES and we will forgive your abuse of wee Eck and Nichola.

      or vote no and bugger off somewhere your more welcome , like the BBC, OO, Labour,tory,libdem/elite of WM.BNP,Britain First,

      Yuk

    58. heedtracker says:

      At what point does Jim Murphy start roaring Never Never Never? Its nice that this kind of loyalist er happiness spreading isn’t on his itinerary, yet.

      BBC not liking the Murphy egging either. Its funny how they bury stuff like Murphy shouting fuck off over and over into the face of an SNP MP at Westminster or Ian Davidson can say “I’ll give you a doing” to a woman SNP MP, but this gets blanket BettertogteherBBC coverage

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28969671

    59. Paula Rose says:

      Love that Wings over Reality thingie – how can anyone be so aquiescent? I know don’t feed.

    60. In Cupar today the no voters were generally in two groups. One group they were over 60’s and spoke with bools in their mouths. There was a good few lads under 20 yr old, looked like students and didn’t say anything, then there was a few 40 – 50’s.

    61. john king says:

      Elctoral commission tells CBI to trim the bill
      so tonights menu
      will be
      jam piece,
      butter and suger peice,
      or dripping peice,
      pudding will be
      poke of sugar and rhubarb sticks

      Dave’ll be talking aboot us 😉

    62. I live in Ayrshire – “Orange County”. There are places here which are effectively run by the Orange Lodge.

      Staunch Orangemen insist they are more a Monarchist organisation than a Unionist one. Their principal reason d’ etre is to ensure that a Protestant monarch sits on the throne.

      So, when I point-out to them that, post-independence, the only thing that will change will be, instead of being Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but, in Scotland she will be Elizabeth, Queen of Scots.

      Somehow, this is difficult for some of them to compute, or comprehend.

    63. heedtracker says:

      Wings Over Reality, quick question, if this obsession, or democracy some call it, means that Scotland does end up actually running Scotland, what’s your plans dude?

    64. Croompenstein says:

      @Ian Brotherhood – What time is Cameron getting his dinner?

      Dunno Ian but his tea is definitely oot..

      PS Where is Lesley-Anne?

    65. Harry McAye says:

      O/T On Reporting Scotland pensioners talking to Margaret Curran and saying they will be voting No, if anyone recognises the area, I think they said East End of Glasgow, perhaps that area could be targeted for a drop of WBBs. In fact any area that is predominantly pensioners, rather than young couples, should be targeted.

    66. Gizmo says:

      Any truth in the story doing the rounds that the BBC aren’t covering this march/rally?

    67. schrodinger's cat says:

      o/t
      sorry
      http://www.facebook.com/FarmingforYes/posts/284864581716739

      the dawning o’ the day

      this should be our anthem
      great stuff


      It’s no use in thinking it’s too late for changing
      No use in thinking that it’s not up to you
      You must teach, you must learn and to change things be willing
      For you are your country and your country is you

      To dwell on past glories at the cost of invention
      Is to squander the gifts that our forefathers gave
      So take strength from the past but declare your intention
      To change this dear land back to Scotland the Brave

      Chorus:
      O we’ll fight for the right and the dawning of the day
      When we’ll rise again to win our claim for Scottish destiny

      Oh Caledonia, we are your sons
      And will again be free

    68. Croompenstein says:

      No voters have no emotional investment in the referendum and just want it over and done with

      That is enough to make you weep, honestly the future of your country is being decided and that is your opinion. Pathetic!

    69. Karmanaut says:

      @Gizmo

      The BBC have a long track record of not covering things when it’s in their interest not to cover them. I’d be very surprised if they covered it.

    70. Thepnr says:

      John Curtice talking on Reporting Scotland about increases in voter registrations talked along the lines of:

      “if places like Easterhouse, Castlemilk or Ferguslie Park are shown to have had the largest increases in new registrations then maybe that will help the Yes vote. However if it is the more politically savvy middle class areas that are signing up that it’s unlikely Yes will benefit.”

      What an idiot, he insinuates that poor=stupid

    71. Grouse Beater says:

      The photograph atop this topic should be captioned:

      And now for something completely different.

    72. john king says:

      wings over reality say

      Alternatively, No voters have no emotional investment in the referendum and just want it over and done with.

      It’s emotionally stunted to believe everyone should share one’s own obsessions.”

      What? like this you mean?
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anEuw8F8cpE

      in you effin dreams pal

    73. john king says:

      “What an idiot, he insinuates that poor=stupid”

      Saw it Thepnr.
      we need to make use of that stupid comment.

    74. john king says:

      “Dunno Ian but his tea is definitely oot..”

      Yea now I know why I dont like you Croompy

      you beat me to it you b******

    75. Quinie frae Angus says:

      Folks, no wish to infuriate anyone any further but I have a FB friend who’s an adamant and very vocal “No” – obsessed with Alex Salmond, the Nazi SNP, etc etc. I thought I was actually getting somewhere with him recently, as he’s stopped commenting on most of my recent posts.

      Imagine how my heart sinks when I see that tonight he has posted on his own FB page, the following article – from UK Yahoo News!!!

      https://uk.news.yahoo.com/comment/talking-politics/salmond-nationalism-ugly-others-084240730.html#QJtess3

      Anyone know anything about this bloke? His credentials at the bottom re Montenegro give rise to why he may have a very jaundiced view of “nationalism”, but he clearly has no understanding whatsoever about what the pro-indy movement is all about here.

      Bl**** annoying though, this sort of crap.

    76. Paula Rose says:

      My high heels are going to get very active over a certain Curtice if he continues to suggest that poor people like me are stupid.

    77. john king says:

      Socrates macsporran says
      “I live in Ayrshire – “Orange County”.”
      what? is that twinned with Essex?

    78. heedtracker says:

      Cadaverous Prof Curtice doesn’t get it. If Scotland was middle class like say Norway, the ref might not be happening at all or at least it probably would all just be about nationalism, UKOK/teamGB levels of British nationalist hysterics, or the good kind if you work at Pacific Quay for another 3 weeks at most:D

    79. CameronB Brodie says:

      misteralz
      Cruel, just cruel. 🙂

    80. Jean says:

      Slightly o/t…apologies. I’ve just been given sight of a Labour Party Membership ‘begging letter’ signed by Johann Lamont,Leader of the Scottish Labour party.
      The letter is to a labour party member and follows the usual party format of asking for donations. Nothing sinister in that cos all big organisations seek funds from their members but a paragraph stood out which gives insight into their psyche.

      “I know you understand how serious the implications of not winning this referendum are. Separation would be irreversible, weakening our party and our values on both sides of the border.”

      Not really putting Scotland first are they?

    81. Juteman says:

      Has anyone else noticed that all these active Scottish members of the British Labour Party have all spent time in the USA for ‘training’.
      Murphy even addressed the ultra right wing Henry Jackson society.
      The USA was alarmed at the leftwards direction the UK was taking in the ’70’s, and infiltrating the Labour Party would be a typical CIA move.

    82. Richard Bruce says:

      That Orange Order march photo, reminded me of something. The Sturmabteilung or SA from 1920-30s Germany

      An organised band of thugs that went around threatening and beating members of religious groups not to their liking.

      Well, really not much difference then.

    83. Thepnr says:

      @Harry McAye

      I think they said Shettleston in the East end of Glasgow.

      I’ve also been thinking about your idea of targeting older people with the WBB. I will be trying it out on my Mother in Law this weekend.

      If she converts then it will definitely be worth doing, getting her to read it in the first place might be the hardest part.

      I think she can be persuaded to read it if I tell her “You can’t afford not too, your grandchildren’s future is at stake.”

      Sounds a scary thing to say to an old lady, I believe what I will be telling her though. Anyone with a No voting parent or grandparent that gets their hands on a copy of the WBB should do the same.

    84. johnny come lately says:

      The reason no doesn’t haven’t a grassroots, is because no one has built one. Westminster has both the money, know how and media to promote one.
      Why haven’t they done so? The answer is very simple.
      If a proper No grass roots was established, then Westminster would be building a politically active movement, whose members very quickly would become politically conscious and begin to see that the No arguments just don’t hold up to scrutiny. You would then find a steady stream of definite No’s moving over to Yes. The last thing the unionists want is their supporters becoming informed about the issues. The second reason is that in the event of a No vote, the grassroots members would still be organized and politically conscious. Not good.

    85. gfaetheblock says:

      The abundance of yes grassroots is linked to two factors on my mind. One is the committed nationalists to whom this is there one shot at their dream, and two, the more more tactical nationalists, such as greens or socialists. Both these groups are highly motivated and have many activists.

      No struggles to generate this passion as it is hard to get excited about something that has only been on the agenda for the last couple of years. That coupled with the consistent lead in the polls for no making it feel less desperate.

      The OO is an unpleasant part of society, but not a major factor in the referendum.

    86. Nana Smith says:

      Radical independence say…..

      Hundreds protesting David Cameron in Glasgow, say Yes and sack the tories for good. Pictures to follow.

    87. Thepnr says:

      @Nana Smith

      Just brilliant! LOL

    88. CM says:

      Out and about in Falkirk today. See a homeless guy in the street begging for money, looked real down and out; sad.

      Anyway, not even 50m away there is a “Better Together” stall set up with a few people standing around. I walk past, look at the stall, shake my head, and then some bloke asks “can I help?”. I said, “Yes, I’m curious to know how the UK is “better together” when I see a homeless guy begging close to your stall? In an independent Scotland that guy would not be homeless or penniless.” He had no answer and I simply said, “it’s Yes for me” and walked away, still shaking my head.

      I may add the better together guy spoke rather posh and looked like money was no issue to him…another example of how out of touch these cretins are.

    89. manandboy says:

      Quinie frae Angus says: Above

      I thought I was actually getting somewhere with him recently, as he’s stopped commenting on most of my recent posts.
      ________________________________________________________

      Material like that is best not promoted – anywhere.

    90. It is not only the No rank and file that are missing.
      Where is Baron Robertson
      Lord Reid
      Lord McConnell
      Commoner Wilson
      Are they up to something or do they just know they are despised by there own countrymen/women and would lose votes.

    91. Thepnr says:

      @Mark Nixon

      Apologies for the 3 O/T without the courtesy of adressing your article, I just got carried away with the events happening before my eyes.

      I appreciate the historical background but really know very very little about the OO. It would seem now that their support has shrunk so much in the last 30 years or so that now they are almost an irrelevance.

      My own view of why so few No campaigners can be found in the streets is a simple one.

      The great majority of people hate telling blatant lies to their neighbours and fellow citizens that they just cannot bring themselves to go chapping on doors and do just that.

      This is why they are bussed in from other parts of the UK where these activists have no such scruples about lying to the people of Scotland. Again, this type take their lead from their Westminster masters and believe they are acting also in their own self interests.

    92. muttley79 says:

      I think the No campaign are hoping to win the referendum by appealing to the middle classes, a lot of whom support the Union unquestioningly. No already have the support of big business. They also have the support of a portion of the working class; whose views are similar to SLAB unionists, trade unionists, Orange Order; whose idea of solidarity ends at the White Cliffs of Dover. They are also trying to gain the support of many pensioners, who they want to scare and frighten.

      The point I am trying to make is the No campaign clearly do not think they need to have people showing an interest in, or campaigning for, their campaign. Their world view is quietly supported by big business, and many in the middle class in particular. I would say the last 30 years of neo-liberalism on steroids in the UK has probably destroyed most of their support from the working class. All that remains are the SLAB/trade unionist/Orange Order element. They are really Brit nats though.

    93. CameronB Brodie says:

      Grab your tinfoil bunnets folks.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio

    94. Quentin Quale says:

      Cripes, Lorna Gordon has tweeted the menu. Just main course and a pudding.
      Quick, set up a hot pie stall, they’ll all be starving. Free WBB with every order, mind.

    95. galamcennalath says:

      CM says:
      the better together guy spoke rather posh and looked like money was no issue to him

      Every BT activist I have seen have fitted that description. All aging well heeled Tories.

    96. galamcennalath says:

      Has anyone actually sent a WBB to Cameron? It might let him know what is actually going on up here in the ScotShires.

    97. tony O'neill says:

      So very true, and happily so very sad for Westminster,the only thing they can be seen to have contributed to this campaign is the proliferation of just say naw stickers.

    98. Paula Rose says:

      I would like to make the serious point that all that I consider to be great about Britain will be furthered in an independent Scotland, but destroyed by Westminster. This to me is what it is about – Westminster is destroying all that my family and the people I love fought and died for – a country that is for all not the few – a democracy.

    99. heedtracker says:

      C4 news about to forecast post independence Scotland economy, Jon Snow with dystopic, white flight with capital, mass unemployment, oil and gas worthless, scotch whisky unsold across the planet, bartering, buttons for money, anarchy reigns, everyone pleading with England to take us back, but I could be wrong.

    100. AllyPally says:

      It was pointed out to me that uniformed political marches have been illegal since the 30s. Can’t remember the name of the Act.

      Would it be better for the OO march the week before the indyref to take place, or for them to get 25 yards and all get buckled into polis vans?

    101. Caroline Corfield says:

      Socrates, it’s always interesting when people worry about the monarchy to point out it was Westminster that decapitated one king, deposed another in favour of a relative and forced the abdication of yet another. If monarchists are to be worried about anything surely it ought to be Westminster?

    102. heedtracker says:

      Why do we have to “leave aside” our oil Channel 4 news dudes?!

    103. Thepnr says:

      @manandboy

      Material like that is best not promoted – anywhere.

      I agree to, too an extent, for people like me who would never get my news from sites like Yahoo I would not have known that “mainstream” internet news sites are publishing articles like this.

      It’s another example of the hatred and bile from those who are leading the world down a slippery slope.

      An article like that would never have been printed 30 years ago other than in some obscure right wing pamphlet that few ever read.

      I for one take no offence at this type of article being brought to my attention, I have seen courtesy of links from wings many similar articles in papers such as the Daily Mail. We need to walk around with our eyes open else we are in danger of bumping into a wall.

    104. Marco McGinty says:

      @Scot Finlayson
      Brian Wilson will be at the Vikingar in Largs on Monday night, along with his Tory ally, Ruth Davidson. The good side will have Dr Philippa Whitford and Robert Crawford.

      The debate, organised by the local paper, has all the appearance of a stitch-up, with two professional politicians against two non-politicians, but it might just work in our favour.

    105. AllyPally says:

      Huckled. Damn you, autocorrect!

    106. Ish in Norway says:

      First time commenting – only observing – unfortunately away from Scotland too long, and now living is terrible Norway (head hangs in shame at the though of that awful oil we have).

      I usually keep up with the news at home and was surprised at the Ross-shire Journal comments from the lovely Ruth Davidson when she was in Nairn recently, apparently … “She made the rallying cry to an 80-strong meeting of the Conservative Friends of the Union. ” So many people?

      Also interested to hear that we don´t discuss politics in this country either her comment being “In Scotland we don’t really talk about politics that much,”. Wonder how many moons there are on her planet?

    107. heedtracker says:

      Channel 4 news dude says “Clyde mainly builds royal navy ships” whereas in reality that’s all there is left, in this union and after 70 years of Labour in Scotland right to reign over us. 3000 Clyde shipbuilders need wake up and smell the bullshit.

    108. CameronB Brodie says:

      Thepnr said:
      The great majority of people hate telling blatant lies to their neighbours and fellow citizens that they just cannot bring themselves to go chapping on doors and do just that.

      This is why they are bussed in from other parts of the UK where these activists have no such scruples about lying to the people of Scotland. Again, this type take their lead from their Westminster masters and believe they are acting also in their own self interests.

      They (English based activists), are also happy to accept Scotland’s wealth, through the exerciser of POOLING AND SHARING.

      C o n f l i c t e d?

    109. Bugger [the Panda] says:

      Anyone notice that the two fetching wenches at the head of the parade, carrying the banner, have been wearing the same hat and dress since the 1950s,

      Are they resurrected ladies. From portraits in some OO attic?

    110. Richard Taylor says:

      The only time I have ever been threatened with violence – in Edinburgh – was while walking up the Royal Mile, with my then girlfriend, while (coincidentally) an Orange March was walking up it at the same time.

      Two separate drunken supporters challenged me to a fight, about 5 minutes apart, for as far as I can see no reason – I wasn’t taking part or demonstrating, just walking up the Mile with my girlfriend.

      I’m a very lapsed Kirk of Scotland and don’t wear football colours. I do have long hair.

      I was seething, really seething with anger. You had all these foreign tourists, Italians, Spaniards, taking photos of the march, thinking it was a historical Scottish thing put on for tourists.

      I wanted to form a schiltrom and shove them into the Firth of Forth at spearpoint. There were banners saying things like, “The Pride of Kilmarnock”. Never been less proud to be Scottish in my life.

    111. X_Sticks says:

      Sorry O/T

      @liveindy Veterans for Independence Fergal Dalton ON NOW http://tinyurl.com/p3trtbe

    112. Marco McGinty says:

      @heedtracker
      “Channel 4 news dude says “Clyde mainly builds royal navy ships” whereas in reality that’s all there is left, in this union and after 70 years of Labour in Scotland right to reign over us. 3000 Clyde shipbuilders need wake up and smell the bullshit.”

      Aye, I’m quite sure that the wholesale decline of the Clyde shipbuilding industry occurred during successive unionist governments. This decline, from the shipbuilding capital of the world, to a single shipyard, was the sole responsibility of Westminster.

      If any current shipbuilder believes that Westminster will be the saviour, they are deluded.

    113. Dr Jim says:

      For goodness sake,of course no right minded person will condone angry protest,BUT,lest we forget, people died to help give us that right,because before that,the Westminster Gov would have just sent in an army ,cleared us out ,or killed us,
      How times have changed!
      Still not saying i agree though

    114. CameronB Brodie says:

      @ Charles Maclean
      You suggest The Union is barely fifty years younger than British democracy itself ……

      REALLY?

    115. Iain says:

      O/t , looks like an incoming Survation poll.

      Alan Roden ?@AlanRoden 21 mins
      Does the Yes campaign have #indyref momentum following the BBC debate? The first exclusive poll will be in tomorrow’s Scottish Daily Mail.

      Prices on Yes sinking like a stone, 6/1 with Betfair 2 days ago, now 4/1.

    116. Robbie says:

      How can Bitter Together distance themselves from Labour,s Gordon Matheson going begging for the OO,s support in exchange for marches on a Sunday?

    117. Donny Mac says:

      Completely O/T, but…
      tonight’s “Reporting Scotland” included an interview between Allan Little and the Islay Postmaster, one Alastair Redman, regarding the independence debate. Mr Redman it seemed was simply the Postmaster, a man with a point of view – at least that was how the BBC presented him. But then there is this…
      http://www.argyll-conservatives.org/person/alastair-redman

    118. john king says:

      Jonny come lately @7.11

      Its a wrap get it in the can!

    119. Black Douglas says:

      @Donny Mac

      Great spot, just another ordinary postman then? 🙂

    120. Free Scotland says:

      I don’t know why, but when I looked at that photo of the lonely better together lady, the words of an old song which was a hit for Charlie Rich in 1974 sprang immediately to mind:

      “Hey, did you happen to see the most beautiful girl in the world ? And if you did, was she crying, crying?”

    121. Kenny Campbell says:

      A lot of people just don’t like change and can’t be arsed to get informed….Sadly that’s a reasonable section of the community.

    122. Thepnr says:

      @Iain

      Yes, all the exchange betting odds have plummeted, Yes on Betfair now only 7/2 and on Betdaq 3/1.

      These are the guys who react the quickest to news or “rumours” looks like we’re on the move. Glad to say I only put my bet on on Monday at 7.4 or 6.4/1 🙂

      Odds nearly halved in 3 days on Betfair. By Monday and after the weekend polls 2/1 generally is my guess. The truth is getting out there hahahaha.

    123. Flooplepoop says:

      @Donny Mac
      They can’t seem to find an ordinary person to speak for the No side.

    124. Paula Rose says:

      Thepnr honey – could you do that stick a tenner on for me stuff and take your stake out of the winnings and give the rest to a deserving cause?

    125. Davidb says:

      @Mutley

      I’m not so sure about “big business”. Some Scottish self made’s are for Yes, some Grandee Tories are against. That kind of encapsulates the argument. The self made’s know you can succeed with effort and hard work, the silver spoons don’t want to lose their Droit de Seigneur over us Jock peasants.

      What relevance is class in Scotland? We are all Jock Thompsons bairns. I look down on no-one, nor doff my cap to anyone.

      We have a very egalitarian system here. That is to be admired and is one of our national strengths. The big identifier I have come across of voting intention is not class. Its age. The old folk fear for their pensions. I try to point out that they are no more or less safe in UK or Free Scotland. But in the end have suggested to some that if they really cannot vote Yes, could they please not vote at all.

      As to the Clyde. We have our own Navy to build – especially if we aren’t getting any of the Royal Navy’s. And why are we building warships? I see super-yachts as big as frigates in news reports. Cruise liners are built in Germany and France. Why do we want to build warships exclusively?

    126. Ravelin says:

      @Thepnr

      So it was you that got in at 7.4, I only managed 7.2 as by the time I’d funded my account 7.4 had gone. Odds this afternoon were around 6 so its dropping quick.

    127. Dcanmore says:

      So Jim Murphy gets hit with an egg on his back, is that where he told the guy to throw it? Funny how the egging comes just after Dougie getting the ‘effing liar’ tirade on the radio… hmmm(?)

      No grassroots because traditional Labour voters a flocking to YES (37% now and counting) hence bussing up activists from England and even having to pay them. Orange Ludge are stuck with 17th century political dogma, nobody cares anymore, this will be their last century and they’ll fade away.

      There is no motivation to sell negativity on the doorstep, it’s a tough gig, hence the big donations that go toward expensive direct marketing costs. However expect big dirty tricks and false flags to come, it’s the British Establishment remember, Sociopaths-Psychopaths and Crooks Inc.

      Ultimately the reason I think BT/UKOK/No Thanks tactics have largely failed is because they were meant for a short-term campaign, scare the wits out of people for six weeks then vote. They could mobilise people in the immediacy of a quick battle with media colusion, but it’s the wrong tactics in a war of attrition where people eventually get clued up with facts over fear.

    128. neil allan says:

      What a set of fantasists you are!! Where is the support for your campaign in NE Scotland – Orangemen not too thick on the ground north of Glasgow, sorry guys.

      Neil Allan

    129. Thepnr says:

      @Ravelin

      There may have been a leak this afternoon about the Survation poll due tomorrow, hence the plunging odds.

      This is what plunging odds look like in graph form for the real bets on Betfair for those that don’t normally bet but can read a graph.

      http://www.betfair.com/exchange/politics/marketactivity?id=1.110033387&selectionId=5334892

      Watch the polls follow suit anytime soon..

    130. Croompenstein says:

      I wish that no mark Skull Murphy had been at the Veterans for Independence and listened to some real men telling real stories, not spouting utter pish like him and his unionist cabal

    131. Onwards says:

      Anyone know if the YES camp have any sort of response to counter the orange march?
      Or just to ignore it as much as possible?

      I heard suggestions of asking people to turn their backs to the march as a form of protest.
      Or wave black flags against Scotland’s shame.

      But I suspect there could be a bit of intimidation from the knuckle draggers.
      Or maybe they have been instructed to be on their best behaviour.

    132. Braghadeanach says:

      Just driven up the road from Galloway to Stonehaven. All the way up the estates and what looks like the prosperous farms have large ‘No Thanks’ and ‘Proud to be Scottish, delighted to be united’ banners prominently placed.

      Getting into Stonehaven and walking around the wee grey streets all you see are Yes posters in the windows.

      Quite a contrast and probably says something. I wonder if the establishment showing their colours is actually conterproductive for them and might galvanise the ‘wee fowk’?

      Sitting in the bar on the waterfront next to a guy fulminating his hatred towards Alex Salmond. His friends seemed embarrassed.

      Slan

    133. liz says:

      Out canvassing in Newton Mearns, mainly middle class area and knocking on doors – pleased to say the majority, of an admittedly small sample, were Yes , a couple of No’s and one genuine DK who was worried about what our lender of last resort would be in the event of Plan B – I directed him to BfS which he said he would look at.

    134. Harry McAye says:

      On the topic of shy Nos, I was behind a car yesterday that had three tiny stickers on the back window. I couldn’t have been any closer to it at the lights yet I still could not make out what the stickers said. I realised after a wee while that they said No Thanks but that was only becaujse I recognised the design. What are they afraid of? Why not be bold?

      I have seen locally in Hamilton about four houses with very big UKOK and No Thanks posters, (one even has a Scotland Says No to Separation”). I may not agree with their leanings but I would say, fair play, at least you are brave enough to declare it (one house at the top end of Hamilton has four No cards or stickers on the front windows and a big No at the front door and the car has a UKOK sticker which nobody could miss. But these tiny ones, and I’ve seen small “Naws” too, though they are a bit bigger than the ones mentioned at the start, they are still a bit meek. Still, very heartened to see three Yes windows in Hillhouse Road council houses that weren’t there a week ago. And that is the sort of area where you could make yourself a target to the drunk going home late at night. A friend who stays near that road specifically said to me he didn’t want to make himself a target but if there are several Yes windows in the area what are they going to do, pan them all in? I hope he’ll yet be brave enough to display a poster. All his family are voting Yes, which is at least 7 more to add to the pile.

    135. Dr JM Mackintosh says:

      @AllyPally

      the act you are looking for is the 1936 public order act…

      “Subject as hereinafter provided, any person
      who in any public place or at any public meeting wears
      uniform signifying his association with any political
      organisation or with, the promotion of any political
      object shall be guilty of an offence.”

      I have raised this with the Edinburgh Police and logged an incident report where I thought there may be an offence committed on the 13th by the OO. I have no problem with the OO marching but I suspected that some of them may be wearing uniforms which would be a criminal offence.

      Initially, they tried to fob me off saying it was a council issue but I pointed out the 1936 Act and therefore it was most certainly a Police issue.

      The act can be overridden by the Secretary of State for Portsmouth. So it will be interestingly to see what happens on the day.

      See Craig Murray’s blog for more details…

      http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/08/orange-blackout/

    136. Brotyboy says:

      I’ve had Betfair open since yesterday when Yes was at 7 and I put a little on. Today it’s been 6.4 until I checked after Thepnr’s post.

      Curses, if it had gone back to 7 I was thinking of lumping on.

    137. Croompenstein says:

      I wonder if anyone gave Comedy Dave a copy of the wee blue book to take back to wastemonster, who knows he may move to Yes

    138. Onwards says:

      With regards to the NO campaigns relative invisibility, it’s not hard to reckon why.

      Despite the self-deluding rhetoric about being ‘proud Scots’, many voters are choosing NO because of fear.

      They’re not proud to do so, and in their hearts they might think it is anti-Scottish, but may still do so reluctantly – because of some misplaced fear about their pension or the like.

      It’s the whole reason for ‘Project Fear’.

      But who actually WANTS to vote against their country running its own affairs?

      What gets people on the streets is the hope of a better future, not fear of change.

    139. Giving Goose says:

      I can’t believe all this noise about the egging of Jim Murphy. It was acceptable to egg Maggie Thatcher and Murphy’s a Tory, so what’s the difference?

    140. Chic McGregor says:

      Mark there was a big Orange march in Bathgate 30-40 bands? can’t remember. Carrying No signs, of which there is a video clip somewhere (was posted here at the time). There was also a very large street wide banner slung between two tall lamposts across the main drag, and at a height which most have involved the use of cherry pickers I would have thought.

      My wife took a picture of it with her phone, but the lens must have had something on it because it is a poor photo. But it is just about clear enough to see what it says. Here it is.

      https://www.dropbox.com/s/b562r7ufyug8pqb/OO_Banner_Bathgate.jpg?dl=0

      And here is where I tried to make the writing clearer on PS

      https://www.dropbox.com/s/v8au79ks5attb9q/OO_Banner_Bathgate_contrast_adjusted.jpg?dl=0

    141. Harry McAye says:

      Just in the last hour, prices on Yes have come in even more. BetFred now the skinniest at 3/1, Skybet 10/3 (in from 4/1), BetVictor, Coral and other now 7/2. Worst value for No is BetFred’s 2/9.

      Source http://www.oddschecker.com

    142. Harry McAye says:

      *Best value for No, not worst.

    143. Dan Huil says:

      OT. Excellent meeting at Elgin tonight. Dennis Canavan on great form. Thoughtful questions from the audience; intelligent answers.

    144. Auld Rock says:

      Heard today that the Sec. of State for Portsmouth AKA my MP is hedging his bets like the good Lib/Dem that he is and is putting on his life-jacket, rats and sinking ship spring to mind. Remember that opinion poll that they’ve still not published well I think their canvass returns have got them scrambling for their ‘brown trousers’. Do we really want ‘fence sitters’ as part of Team Scotland, I think not. If he renounced ‘no’ right now I might just consider him. But like a good Lib/Dem he’ll now sit on the fence for as long as possible.

      Auld Rock

    145. seanair says:

      Sorry O/T but might give you a laugh.
      Coming up Leith Walk on a bus, passing the giant electronic screen which advertises a variety of products. Just as bus passed screen I was able to catch an advert for The Scotsman and the referendum, Think I saw the word “impartial” but definitely saw “without fear or favour” Aye Right!
      The trouble is that they actually believe it.

    146. scotcat2014 says:

      Sorry to go o/t, but watching probably the most slanted BBC effort yet, the risible ‘whats in it for you’ with the truly abysmal Laura Kuenssberg. Every question is loaded towards a naw; e.g. on the alleged recovery ‘but would we have it so good after independence?’ No thought or suggestion that we could and would have it better. Meanwhile Laura could give Churchill the bulldog a run for his money in the nodding stakes (as long as the answers suit no). The classic (so far) was when she returned to the Prestwick business owner and said ‘well we’ve got answers from experts, and some from the Scottish Government’. I’m away to find more soft things to have nearby when I feel the need to to abuse the poor TV. Did they keep this utter pish for after a debate victory and just decide

    147. Devorgilla says:

      Surely it is simple – the Labour vote is a passive vote; they believe themselves to be the majority, the establishment, and see no need to defend it, so sure are they that they will carry the day?

      At the same time (and this is the odd thing) their support of the Union is somewhat passionless. It must be that they either have their head in the sand and believe the last two Holyrood results were aberrations, or they just assume the high heid yins will fix it as usual? If they were that keen on the Union, and suspected it was seriously threatened, surely they would be trying to defend it?

      Passive, passionless, visionless. That’s actually what galls me if they carry the day. If they were committed unionists I would find it easier to accept a No vote. But the thought of a No vote being delivered by half-hearted Unionists is galling.

    148. HandandShrimp says:

      The trouble is that they actually believe it.

      I find that hard to believe 😉

    149. scotcat2014 says:

      Sorry to go o/t, but watching probably the most slanted BBC effort yet, the risible ‘whats in it for you’ with the truly abysmal Laura Kuenssberg. Every question is loaded towards a naw; e.g. on the alleged recovery ‘but would we have it so good after independence?’ No thought or suggestion that we could and would have it better. Meanwhile Laura could give Churchill the bulldog a run for his money in the nodding stakes (as long as the answers suit no). The classic (so far) was when she returned to the Prestwick business owner and said ‘well we’ve got answers from experts, and some from the Scottish Government’. I’m away to find more soft things to have nearby when I feel the need to to abuse the poor TV. Did they keep this utter pish for after a ‘debate victory’ and just decide to put it out anyway, in sheer desperation.

    150. Colin Dunn says:

      Sorry OT, but advice needed . .

      Anyone got some advice on the ‘How to fill in your postal vote’ documents received at same time as postal votes? My sister wants to make a formal complaint.

      She works in a care home for adults with special needs in Aberdeen, and all of the people in the home received this document explaining how to fill the firm in by ticking ‘No’. Normally a very calm person, she’s furious about these papers. The people she helps care for can be easily confused and many might assume thst the advice paper, which very much resembles the official look pf postal votes, must be complied sith by completing the firm exactly as it states – by ticking the No box. She’s also concerned that some elderly people may also be potentially misdirected byt the information into doing the same thing.

      She wants to make a firmal complaint, but doesn’t know to shom she should direct this. Any suggestions?

    151. gerry parker says:

      @ colin, find out who the counting officer is and start there, should be able to get this info on the Council Web site.
      Get a copy of the document – or the original.

    152. MoJo says:

      Colin Dunn – evidence please….?

    153. Paula Rose says:

      No forms should be returned until she has contacted her local office.

    154. heedtracker says:

      @ Colin Dunn, start by phoning the election officer in Aberdeen City Council, Broad Street, and see what advice they have. It is an outrageous abuse of power by the Electoral Commision but its run by a former BBC director general and they know exactly what they’re doing.

    155. North chiel says:

      Party political broadcast for Better together
      with Laura Kuenssberg on BBC 2 at present.Nothing
      Short of a disgrace. Should be renamed “What’s in it for Westminster”
      Laura please go back to your usual domain and take Eleanor
      Bradford with you.

    156. Midgehunter says:

      I’m really starting to like the Livestream events that you can see just about every other night now.

      There’s a lot of info going out in a cosy, homely atmosphere where your not trying to stop folks in the street and chat to people in a singular way.

      Just watched the Veterans for Indy event and what did I see – the panelist with the black shirt and trousers, grey beard and pony-tail had a copy of the WBB on his lap and obviously had a quick look in now and again. 🙂

    157. heedtracker says:

      I have an Aberdeen postal but I didn’t see the instructions with the ballot paper that had the no box filled but I have used it before so didn’t need them.

      Thats three YES postal votes so far in this office so that’s worth noting:D

    158. kendomacaroonbar says:

      @North Chiel

      It’ a better Together propaganda exercise, and not too subtle either.

    159. Colin Dunn says:

      MoJo says:
      >> Colin Dunn – evidence please….?

      What her charges have received is the same form as in this tweet . .

      https://twitter.com/Davidofficer/status/504744947153920000

      Looks like a duck. Swims like a duck . .

    160. Nana Smith says:

      See my post at 5.47pm re postal vote

    161. heraldnomore says:

      I saw a copy of this form earlier today; signed by one Ruth Davidson MSP.

      Presumably someone’s given them a list of all who applied for postal votes, and then thought it awfy clever and a whizzo campaign tactic to send voters a copy of their postal voting form with a big blue cross already placed in the No box. Full instructions; this is how you vote etc.

      Worth a chat with local returning officers and Electoral Commissioner I would have thought. It’s the sort of tactic you might expect from SLAB, but the fine upstanding Tories? Must be worried.

    162. heraldnomore says:

      Aye Colin, that’s the one, received in G74.

    163. Jim McIntosh says:

      I hear when Cameron was asked today when the Scotland Parliament would get more powers his answer was “Soon”.

      Sorted

      Flipper: “Do you have a Plan B?”
      Alec: “Yes”
      Flipper: “When are you going to tell us?”
      Alec: “Soon”

      Game Over

    164. Col The Viking says:

      Totally O/T

      Just home from visiting some undecideds and Labour supporters who had all registered for postal votes.

      Part from the old couple who had already posted off their ‘No’s because of family in England type reasoning fair enough, they were nice folk – I had two undecideds over to Yes, a daughter voting for the first time ever (aged 29!) a strong Yes, a DK Dad being worked on by his Yes son (steered him to WoS and WBB for assistance) and best of all was the old dear who had 3 kids, 7 Grandkids and 6 Great Grandkids and she was voting Yes for them! Wanted a wee bit of re-assurance about her state and miners spouse pension (duly given) and the currency (duly given) – what a star!

      Honestly, I came home quite elated and with a fair wee tear in the eye!

      Feels good……….something in the air…..

    165. Albaman says:

      B.B.C.2 tonight ” what’s in it for me” , a bloody hatchet job by the Beeb, surely some body will complain about its content, individual complains would be of little concern to them, don’t half make your blood boil though, should have apologied for going O/T before starting , humble apologies Stew.

    166. Brian Ritchie says:

      New Survation poll :

      Should Scotland be an independent country?

      Yes 47% (+4)
      No 53% (-4)

    167. Brian Mchugh says:

      Thepnr says;”John Curtice talking on Reporting Scotland about increases in voter registrations talked along the lines of; ‘if places like Easterhouse, Castlemilk or Ferguslie Park are shown to have had the largest increases in new registrations then maybe that will help the Yes vote. However if it is the more politically savvy middle class areas that are signing up that it’s unlikely Yes will benefit.”

      …The only way the entire country can become prosperous and wealthy is if the entire country becomes prosperous and wealthy.

    168. macart763m says:

      @Nana

      First class photie. 😀

      He’s behind you. Bwahahahahaha 😀

    169. scotcat2014 says:

      O/t again, sorry, but dear Rev, if you have time, please take a look at the truly awful ‘Whats in it for me’ just finished on BTBC2. There’s enough jaw droppingly biased content there for you to fill at least three posts. They were still going on about uncertainty over currency FFS.

    170. Nana Smith says:

      Aye Macart,

      what a pantomime Murphy the clown or ugly sister…

      he’s behind you

      no he isn’t

      Oh yes he is!

    171. SquareHaggis says:

      Anyone with a postal vote should not be too hasty in returning it.

      Duggie Alexander, Flipper, JoLa have all been making a big deal of the so-called million postal votes and asking people to get them in early. Radio Scotland even had a phone-in yesterday soecifically for this purpose. Something doesn’t smell right.

      If they have plans to fiddle the PV’s then it would be much easier for them to handle smaller numbers over a longer period.

      An avalance of PV’s nearer the time would require concentrated manpower and leave them exposed to the greater chance of being caught.

      Remember the phrase, hold, hold, hold. IMO.

    172. Ken500 says:

      Why do the authorities in the Central belt allow these Marches. In most parts of Scotland they are banned. They are an affront to the majority and a burden on the economy. Why should non bigoted taxpayers pay to police them? They should find a field to march around, and not bother other people. (the majority).

      The Tory Islay postman. The crap BBC.

    173. donald anderson says:

      Glasgow Catholic Labour Unionists allowed it simply for votes. They were always preferable to the SNP.

    174. Capella says:

      @SquareHaggis
      You’re right. Anyone with a postal vote can post it at a polling station on the day. I have a postal vote but on this occasion, I think I will take it to the polling station. It will feel more immediate. But if I couldn’t do that, eg offshore or otherwise, then just post it but not TOO early.

    175. SquareHaggis says:

      @Capella,

      Wise move.

      Anyone intending to send in a PV should certainly consider either turning up in person on the day or using a proxy.
      The less PV’s floating about in the (privatised) Royal Mail system the less opportunity for shenanigans on route.

      P.S. can you tell me if the unique voter number is on the voting slip itself or the part where you put your signature?

    176. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      Only time we ever get any sort of bother campaigning (and it’s more of a nuisance than anything else) is, you guessed it, orange order and rangers bampots. Even then it’s only once in a while.

      You just let them blow off as it’s pretty obvious it’s their complete powerlessness these days that infuriates them most. Nobody really gives a shit about them anymore. The world has moved on while they stand there blinking, red faced and barking at the moon unable to understand why nobody is listening to them.

    177. Dr JM Mackintosh says:

      On orange signs – there is a huge one up in Inverness of all places.

      https://www.facebook.com/YesInverness2014/photos/pb.440105436125804.-2207520000.1409264015./505551306247883/?type=1&theater

      This has to be the most prominent YES sign in the whole country.
      Well done Woody Alan.

    178. Davidb says:

      @ Square

      I agree with what you are saying. I have my ballot paper. It says I can “hand it in at any polling station in the council area before 10PM on Thursday 18 September”.

      I want to be there on the day, so mines will be handed in before 10 PM on the day.

      I haven’t filled it in yet. I cannot decide whether to vote Yes or Yes. Hearts and minds you see. In my heart I’m Yes, but in my mind its a no brainer.

    179. yerkitbreeks says:

      Yes Mark, the Orange Order could be the shock troops for NO but they’re too narrowly associated with Unionism, the Act of Settlement and history.

      Unfortunately as narrow minded monarchists they identify with “The Queen in Parliament” which gives Westminster ultimate power, allowing Tony Blair for example to ride roughshod over popular anti war opinion, and this is anathema to not only us YES voters but reasonably minded NO ones as well.

    180. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Aye you can see it from Daviot once you come over the hill, that must be about 2 miles!

    181. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Col The Viking (10.07) –

      More power to ye – if it does end up being tight, it’s the likes of yourself who will have made the difference.

      As Harry Hill’s ‘Stoofer’ might say – ‘Respect Due!’

    182. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Uh, scratch that, you can see it over 5 miles away! 🙂

    183. donald anderson says:

      This unreasoning personal hatred for Alex Salmond will only get worse during the day. I am sure he expects this and has the strength of character to rise above it.

      The Yes campaign could show more support for him and condemnation of this kind of ugly British Nationalism.

    184. gerry parker says:

      @Midgehunter.

      That was our very own “The Man in the Jar”

    185. john king says:

      Alan Mackintosh says
      “Uh, scratch that, you can see it over 5 miles away! ”

      Eh,
      scratch that,
      a kin see it frae ma hoose in Lochgelly 🙂

    186. Robert Peffers says:

      @john king says: 29 August, 2014 at 7:52 am:
      “Eh, scratch that,a kin see it frae ma hoose in Lochgelly.

      Ach! John, Ah Lukkit oot the noo frae Kelty, an Ah canna see it, yon muckle Benarty Hill gets in the way.

    187. Hugh Wallace says:

      I saw an actual NTBTUKOK canvasser yesterday. At least I assume he was by the way he scowled at us, a group of five who had turned out in the rain to canvas for Yes. He was middle-aged, dressed in a suit and looked like a detective or an investigator from the ‘Social’ while the five of us aged from 23 to a retired gentleman with the other three in our late 20s, early 30s and entering our 40s. We were smiling and upbeat and he looked miserable and grim. We stopped to chat to the four workmen who listened (and debated) intently about the implications of indy while he walked straight past them without stopping.

    188. muttley79 says:

      @Davidb

      What relevance is class in Scotland? We are all Jock Thompsons bairns. I look down on no-one, nor doff my cap to anyone.

      We have a very egalitarian system here.

      Sorry but that it just wrong. There is massive inequalities in Scotland, including health, educational, wealth and income. We do not have a very equalitarian system here, in fact just the opposite. This is largely because of over 30 years of neoliberalism on steroids. If you seriously think Scotland is equalitarian, then you should get a copy of Gerry Hassan’s Caledonian Dreaming book.

    189. iHeartScotland says:

      @Donald Anderson,
      Attacking Alec Salmond is all they’ve got.They have no other arguement. No other way of attacking a positive case for Scotland.

    190. Hobbit says:

      True enough, but the sight of a whole lot of Dundee neds supporting Yes Scotland is not that good a look for anyone’s campaign either.

    191. donald anderson says:

      Class inequalities always widen under Labour. England has been soaked in class deference ever since the manorial system emanating from the Norman Conquest. Conversely Scotland has had an egalitarian tribal system, despite brutal attempts to bring us into line.

      Douglas Alexander is now worried about the gross class betrayal of his party in Scotland being exposed in the Referendum and is now talking about a better together conference post referendum. Regardless of the result the Labour Party can never be the same in Scotland.

    192. The Man in the Jar says:

      @Midgehunter
      at 9:21

      Can not tell a lie it was me with the WBB on Veterans for Indi on Independence Live video. 🙂

      http://tinyurl.com/p3trtbe

    193. McTim says:

      I received my postal vote yesterday but had already written to the Electoral Registry Office in the South Gyle to have it cancelled. I just don’t trust the British State on not attempting to manipulate the postal votes. I took my cancellation letter to the postal office in the Scotmid on Leith Walk and had it sent by recorded delivery. I should get a confirmation letter and my polling card soon. Plan to go to my polling station first thing in the morning before going to work. Starting a contract job next week and wasn’t allowed to get time off for the 18th and 19th so have asked my partner to keep me up to date with texts. I hope I can come home on the 19th and celebrate a Yes vote.

    194. Hobbit says:

      @Muttley79:
      “There is massive inequalities in Scotland, including health, educational, wealth and income. We do not have a very equalitarian system here, in fact just the opposite. This is largely because of over 30 years of neoliberalism on steroids.”

      What, precisely, are we going to do about this in an independent Scotland?

    195. Zulu says:

      I know the Orange Order in West Lothian have campaigned for the Labour party as party representatives through many recent elections and have people who hold positions of note in both organisations.

      The OO do this to acquire favours from the councillors(no fuss for licences to march, licences to hold events or sell drinks at events, council housing help for lodge members, etc.) and the Labour party benefit from extra people canvassng on the doorsteps, collecting and transportng ballot boxes(open or sealed) and stewarding at events.

      Funny how its always low key as if the labour councillors don’t really want to be associated with them at any time but are happy to have their help…my main concern voting in this referendum is who are collecting the ballot boxes and who are handing them over…open or sealed?

    196. Colin says:

      That poor woman all alone on the “can’t be bothered” stall needs to buy a bus, then she could take her followers with her.

    197. Croompenstein says:

      What, precisely, are we going to do about this in an independent Scotland?

      We can start by legislating for a living wage so as the state doesn’t have to top up crap wages with benefits, we could provide affordable childcare to allow more women back in to the workplace which helps increase the tax take and decrease the benefits bill.

      We can introduce a fairer tax system where high earners pay more and close any loopholes for corporate or personal tax avoidance. We have to build more social housing to give people a decent chance to make a home and drive out cowboy landlords who leech the system.

      There’s also other things like land reform but if anyone can think of anything else please tell.

    198. Dannyp215 says:

      Guys, I was paid to take part in a referendum poll much earlier this year. I cannot remember the name of the company though.

      I was paid £150 to spend four hours in the Glasgow Hilton to discuss and answer questions on the referendum. I really wish I could remember the name of the research company. They didn’t disclose who they were researching on behalf of, they just said it was a big media company. They were touring Scotland.

      I was recruited into it by a company called Taylor Mackenzie whose offices are on Blythswood Square.

      The point is, I was given £150 and told that I was to go into that day as ‘undecided, leaning towards no’

      My friend was given £150 and told to go in there as a ‘decided no’.

      I have always been Yes. I took the money but I couldn’t keep up the pretence and the cat was out of the bag pretty quickly.

      Everyone in my discussion group was also fed their independence opinions beforehand. So the whole poll was a farce. The results were pre-determined.

      There were actual No voters in there of course but they mainly just really disliked Alex Salmond.

      The rest of them in my discussion group, despite being supposed No voters undecideds leaning towards no found the Yes arguments and the videos they showed us to be more reasonable, at least in the discussions that took place. We didn’t get to see the results of the final poll they took and weren’t to find out where they would finally be published but that experience confirmed to me that polls are not to be trusted one bit. I took part in a rigged poll and received £150 and a beautiful lunch at the Glasgow Hilton for doing so.

    199. BB says:

      @Dannyp215

      Interesting stuff, Danny! Cheers. Any chance you could pass these comments along to http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/ ?

    200. Dannyp215 says:

      BB, just posted it as a comment….



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