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Not down with the sickness

Posted on July 26, 2018 by

An alert reader sent us a piece of interesting follow-up info to yesterday’s piece on NHS Scotland costs. Because comparable figures for NHS England are available too, and they make for surprising reading.

These are the Scottish figures for medicine costs at list price, ie before any negotiated discounts that the health service is able to obtain:

The population of England, at 55 million, is just over 10 times that of Scotland (5.4m). So one would imagine that its like-for-like costs would come in at around £12 billion.

But they don’t.

In fact, the list-price medicine bill for NHS England is a whopping 45% higher.

That bill has grown by 34% in just six years (not factoring inflation), whereas we now know that the Scottish bill rose by just 26% over TEN years (also excluding inflation).

We can find no explanation in the figures for why England is paying so much more for its medicines, especially as it’s Scotland that’s so often said to be the “sick man of Europe”. But with few significant differences in health outcomes between the two nations, it seems pretty clear who’s getting the best value for money.

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    1. 26 07 18 12:56

      Not down with the sickness | speymouth

    263 to “Not down with the sickness”

    1. bobajock says:

      When we are independent, we can safely assume England will ignore how well Scotland is doing, while it’s stash of ice lollies melts.

    2. shug says:

      I look forward to Call Kaye calling this one out

      ha ha ha

      just kidding

    3. Blackhack says:

      The difference in cost is probably to to do with the Scottish mentality of “Just getting on with it” instead of rushing to the doctors with every twinge and ache.

    4. shug says:

      when you doing your next fund raiser

      you earn every penny with this stuff

      the MSM media are a disgrace BBC top of the list

    5. galamcennalath says:

      Is this yet more evidence that services controlled by Holyrood are delivered more effectively and efficiently than those from Westminster?

      Or, would it have been so efficient if PFI loving BritNats had continued to rule Holyrood after 2007?

      Again, the moral seems to be – Scotland run for Scots by Scots is best!

    6. robert alexander harrison says:

      And the English are letting themselves be ripped off by Westminster they really are pathetic blind and dumb letting this robbery continue.

    7. Rick H Johnston says:

      Could be NHS England is being fitted up for privatisation of some or all its services, whereas Scotland is making scant resources go further in the public interest.

    8. manandboy says:

      England is sick to be sure, but in a way pills can’t cure.
      It has an apparently incurable disease – the Ruling Class.

    9. Normski says:

      It’s absolutely pure coincidence that the Health and Social Care Act 2012 was 6 six years ago – the one that in England began the privatisation process of the English NHS.

    10. Josef Ó Luain says:

      More evidence, at least, of endemic corruption within the pharmaceuticals supply-chains.

    11. Corrado Mella says:

      Rick is right.

      The difference in cost for prescriptions – but also for services – delivered by the different NHS services through the nations of the UK is heavily influenced by their working model.

      A fully public health service doesn’t need to rake profits for shareholders of private companies subcontracted by the NHS.

      One more reason to move every essential service (and with Scotland’s climate you can count in Gas and Electricity) into public ownership.

      Cut out the shareholders – voila – lower running costs, lower or no deficit, cut in debt.

    12. mogabee says:

      I’d love to know how many drug companies are ‘pally’ with Tory ministers as we all know how much the UK gov is desperately pushing ahead with ‘private medicine good, public bad’!

      Also may be something to do with Scotland having free prescriptions and drug companies knowing that GP’s are quite willing to prescribe generic items.

      Some alert reader will be on the case I’m sure!!

    13. galamcennalath says:

      Corrado Mella says:

      One more reason to move every essential service into public ownership.

      Indeed. Thing is, since England as a nation and electorate sits permanently to the right, having essentials publically owned is made to sound like a far left policy. It isn’t. Typically European countries have services like electricity and rail as public utilities. Norway effectively has most of its oil industry public!

      Health is actually a bit different across Europe, but Scotland should and could be leading the field by maintaining a quality, effective and efficient public health service.

    14. Martin says:

      I’m sure the papers will be all over this like a rash….

    15. baldelectrician says:

      The Scottish NHS use a national procurement to buy many things (another bad SNP idea – NOT)

      I don’t know if they use the group NHS Scotland to pool buying power but I suspect they do looking at the above

    16. stewartb says:

      Let’s get some more context on cost of prescriptions. The estimated total cost per person based on list price varies substantially across the English regions, from a low of £249.27 in ‘Central Midlands’ to £378.17 in ‘Cumbria and the North East’. (2016-17 data)

      Source: . See Table 2.

      The article in The Herald referred to yesterday here on Wings quoted an overall cost of ‘almost £250 per person’ for prescription medicines in Scotland. So (on the face of it), the cost per head in Scotland is relatively low.

      Hopefully a journalist in the corporate media or the BBC will be investigating this further!

      (“.. value (of journalism) flows from its purpose, to provide people with verified information they can use to make better decisions, and its practices, the most important of which is a systematic process – a discipline of verification – that journalists use to find not just the facts, but also the ‘truth about the facts’.”

      Source: )

      However, as The King’s Fund reports: “.. data from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development suggests that pharmaceutical spending per person in EU15 countries varies substantially (see Figure 3). In 2015, the UK spent US$414.9 per person on medicines. This puts the UK in the lower half of the EU15 countries (for which data is available) and is slightly below the average of US$442.4 per person.”


      So the corporate media and political opponents of the SG could I guess have chosen to go with a diametrically opposite ‘SNP bad’ story viz. ‘SG underfunds prescription medicines compared to England and international comparators’. This ‘journalism’ is easy to do isn’t it? And come on SLAB, be creative, don’t miss out on this additional opportunity – no one will notice if you do an about turn, will they?

    17. Merkin Scot says:

      Could be NHS England is being fitted up for privatisation of some or all its services, whereas Scotland is making scant resources go further in the public interest.
      That goes without saying.

    18. Andy Anderson says:

      Stu England will be paying more because the budget is managed and spent by individual doctors practices instead of health trusts as in Scotland.
      There is more management and scrutiny of spend here.

    19. Capella says:

      Eonomy of scale – it used to be taken for granted that natural monopolies, which are also necessities, benefit from pooling costs and benefits over a national population.

      Whether it’s health, education, telecoms, transport or energy, there is no real competition possible. Monopolies and price fixing cartels are the result.

      Turning state monopolies into private monopolies has been a licence to print money for the shareholders and senior management.

      Labour did nothing to halt the Thatcher internal market reforms in the NHS.

      Privatisation of the English NHS has been ongoing since the Thatcher period. Higher costs for drugs is only one result. The higher cost in some EU countries and the US shows how damaging private health care is. AFAIK the US has the most expensive health care system but vast swathes of their population are uninsured.

      Don’t get me started on the railways.

    20. John Thomson says:

      Someone should alert fraud squad

    21. galamcennalath says:

      I see Nathalie Loiseau, the French Europe minister, has given the UK the best offer it is likely to receive …. staying in the EU with the same arrangements as now … just cancel the whole Brexit shitshow.

    22. I’m sure your article will feature in Tom Gordon’s Cut and Paste Friday column, Stu, with suitable parentheses in the Headline.

      “UK Health Minister under pressure over ‘no explanation why England is paying so much more for its medicines.'”
      Meanwhile,a flock of pigs is silhouetted in the two moons as they fly by y window and in the distance a band is playing:- ‘Believe it if you like’.
      Now, our Hack whores know all of this yet yesterday spread Scotland Is Shite all over the media, just because they are basically poisonous little shits, brainwashed Brit Nats who will literally say anything for money.
      Not long now.

    23. Ken500 says:

      More elderly people (pro rata) in the rest of the UK because they live longer? Free prescriptions over 60?

      20% of the pop use 80% of health care? The elderly.

      There is a list of Westminster MP’s with shares in Healthcare companies. Cherie Blair had an interest in a Healthcare company? Same as landlords.

    24. Breeks says:

      Since it isn’t prescriptions, it isn’t students tuition, it isn’t free care for the elderly, it isn’t Police, and it obviously isn’t saving the most vulnerable from Tory cuts, I confess a certain morbid curiosity what the English actually do spend all their money on.

      I mean, it’s none of my business, but if Public Service was a football match, on paper Scotland would cuffing them 5-0, no???

      If the English suddenly had to find the money to maintain parity with Scotland, can you imagine the screaming and squealing there would be trying to find the money? They’d never get that far of course. Their anger would be channelled into their familiar smear that Scotland as being subsidised by England and they’d park any reform of their own system up a quiet side street. But the reality is, there is nothing happening in Scotland’s Public Sector which the English couldn’t do for themselves if they simply restructured their priorities.

      It wouldn’t be that simple of course, because English Public services have been infiltrated and exploited by creeping privatisation, and the English now have themselves a dragon to pay off or slay if they ever want to catch up on Scotland.

      You’ll never hear that on the BritNat news mind…

    25. jfngw says:

      Don’t worry RS will soon be delving into why the Scottish spending is so low and are people not receiving the medication they need. See it’s easy to turn anything into a SNPBad story.

    26. Robert Peffers says:

      @stewartb says: 26 July, 2018 at 1:07 pm:

      ” … However, as The King’s Fund reports: “.. data from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development suggests that pharmaceutical spending per person in EU15 countries varies substantially (see Figure 3). In 2015, the UK spent US$414.9 per person on medicines.”

      Which highlights an important point that almost always goes un-noticed and unremarked upon – The King’s fund report says this:-

      ” … pharmaceutical spending per person in EU15 countries varies substantially (see Figure 3). In 2015, the UK spent US$414.9 per person on medicines.”

      But here is the anomalies in their statement that highlights their obvious misapprehensions. The United Kingdom, (as its title correctly describes it), is not a country.

      The United Kingdom is precisely what its title describes it as – a bipartite union of kingdoms that contains only two equally sovereign partner kingdoms. One kingdom of which is composed of three distinct countries while the other is a kingdom composed of only one country.

      Ergo the United Kingdom is in no way, “A” country.

      A popular misconception but a misconception none the less.

      That is the exact legal argument being judged today in the illegal Westminster United Kingdom Supreme Court. A court that is frequently described in the media as, “The Highest Court in the COUNTRY.

      Which beggars the question – which of the four countries might they be referring to?

    27. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Remember Bojo’s comment about a tenner being better spent in London than ‘Strathclyde’?

      I remember seeing a CH4 News report where yon Michael Crick was pursuing some naughty Tory down a street in or near Whitehall. There was something about it that irked me and it wasn’t until I saw the report briefly repeated some weeks/months later that I realised what it was…

      The street itself looked like a film set. It was immaculate. The road was perfectly level, the pavements were broad and looked split-new and even the buildings visible looked absolutely spotless and pristine. When you consider the price of labour in London and the upheaval that must’ve been caused while work was ongoing, the cost of it must’ve been astronomical.

      We already know about the costs of the HS2, the new underground etc but how many of these projects have been going on over the decades (remember what the IRA bomb did to Canary Wharf?) and how much of that dosh, proportionately, came from the ‘provinces’? In the meantime, we ‘make do’ with whatever they decide they can spare.

      (I don’t often drive in Glasgow but recently had cause to use Tollcross Rd. It was truly shocking, the state of it…)

    28. Thepnr says:

      Look the story of a 25% rise in prescription costs over a 10 year period made Front page headlines on the BBC and all over the media.

      Where is the similar reaction from the BBC and the English media for the 34% rise in costs over just 6 years in the English NHS?

      These newspapers really are taking the piss now, as the Rev demonstrated yesterday the actual costs in Scotland when taking inflation into account have fallen in Scotland whereas the costs is England after inflation have risen!

      C’mon the Herald, Scotsman, Mail and Express your readers demand answers, so where are the front page headlines now eh?

    29. Robert Peffers says:

      @Jack collatin says: 26 July, 2018 at 2:23 pm:

      ” … Now, our Hack whores know all of this yet yesterday spread Scotland Is Shite all over the media, just because they are basically poisonous little shits, brainwashed Brit Nats who will literally say anything for money.”

      Now! Now! Jack. Stop being so nice about the SMSM, and the Broadcasters in particular, and tell us all what you REALLY, REALLY think of them?

      I’ve not managed to stop laughing since I read your comment and my ribs a now quite sore.

    30. Thepnr says:

      See by paying 45% less than ENHS we can actually afford to make all prescriptions free. Somebody is at it across the border or they are more useless than their Scottish counterparts.

    31. donnywho says:

      The SNP plan longterm and with the best outcomes they can afford.

      Remember that there was talk of wastage caused by “free” prescriptions, because the feckless wouldn’t care about usage as it cost them “nothing”.

      It was also said that the English/Welsh poor would not buy all that was prescribed because of the cost… thus saving the NHS money. It was also noted that this might have knock-on effect for the NHS as people would get sicker as a result of incomplete treatments… emergency care costs thousands rather than hundreds.

      Perhaps this is the cause of some of the variance in outcomes of said NHS’s.

      In the long run these differences will exaggerate the outcomes between Scotland and England.

      To summarize our Feckless poor take what is prescribed and get better reducing the longterm costs, in England they buy what they can afford and slowly sicken till the system has to care for them, increasing the costs longterm.

    32. donnywho says:

      PS our poor are not feckless… i was going a bit “Daily Mail” in their description, for effect only!

    33. Macart says:

      Ouch! That’ll leave a mark.

      That’s going to be all over the papers tomor… No, wait. The other thing.

    34. Big Jock says:

      There is a news blackout when it comes to bad news from south of the border. The MSM only print stories useful to the cause of unionism in Scotland. I wouldn’t be surprised to find Ruth Davidson’s press officer, feeding the Herald,the Scotsman and the BBC.

      It’s actually pretty remarkable how well the yes campaign did , when the Yoons were dictating what was news,and what was to be buried.

      Difference is that this time people have zero trust in what they read or hear on the BBC.

    35. Helena Brown says:

      Well before our first referendum I was interested enough to find out which members of the Westminster Parliament had interests in private medicine, at that time one which stood out was Alistair Darling, who we also knew had many interests in real estate. I cannot for the life of me remember any more but I am sure if you consult members interest you will find who wants to see the demise of the NHS.

    36. Not Convinced says:

      So spending on this particular part of health care has increased by 34% over six years in England but only by 25% over ten years in Scotland? Hmm … I guess the story would be “Health care spending increases faster in England than Scotland, SNP very bad”? 😀

    37. Robert Peffers says:


      I was doing a bit of cleaning up my computer and came across this:-

      It is just part 1 of the series and will probably lead onto the rest.

    38. Effijy says:

      I’d say the difference lies in the Money Grabbing Corrupt English MP’s don’t get their hands on Scotland’s NHS budget.

      I think you will find plenty of Tory, Labour and Liberals all with money invested in Drug Companies so if they can get inflated prices accepted it all goes jolly well for One’s Dividends
      and Manila Envelope pass.

      England! You Life is in their envelopes!

    39. Effijy says:

      Can’t wait to see the retractions across the UK media tomorrow and the full in-depth analysis of English NHS Incompetence and corruption.

    40. Robert Peffers @ 2.23 pm.

      Robert, I doubt that I could be in the same room as these poisonous little illiterates.

      Ruth Davidson on her anguish and trepidation about being a mum, and it is sooo expensive.
      Headline news. A Scoop!
      Ruth Davidson, Miss Forth Wet T Shirt beaming triumphantly to her partner’s mobile phone after she reportedly rescued her mutt from the ‘freezing waters, miraculously beamed presumably to the Daily Police Gazette-Bums-and-Tits Record’s ‘Political Editor David Clegg and plastered over the ether.

      We do not have journalism Up Here. We have a coterie of old Buddies from which has been culled anyone of Independent mind, who knows what the key sentence is in a paragraph and can distinguish between the adjective and the adverb.
      Any one who has an original thought is banished to the hills.

      They are all from the same ‘background and culture’, if you get my drift.

      Just check out their CVs.

      Born into, and brainwashed to perpetuate, the Anglo Scottish Establishment, the Tartan equivalent of the White Oriental Gentlemen (from which we get the vile ‘WOGS’, as in Golliwog)which were the educated classes in India, Ceylon, and the conquered nations of Imperial England, who ‘administered’ England’s colonies for their white Overlords for two hundred years.
      This is not hyperbole.
      When a presenter at BBC fronts a show, they are speaking for England, the Mother Country.

      They don’t give a cowpat about Scotland and its people.
      If Scotland were in the Caribbean, we would all have been sent packing by now.

      ‘Poisonous little shits’, I say, and ‘poisonous little shits’, I mean.
      Rant over, Mr P.

    41. Capella says:

      @ Robert Peffers 4:25 – thx Robert for that 9 min video boost for anyone suffering from dangerously low blood pressure, that’ll perk you up!

      The Supreme Court speeches for the session on 25th July are now available. James Wolffe, Lord Advocate, presents his case in support of the Scottish Government.

      The last half hour of the morning session is when the Counsel General for Wales, Jeremy Miles, makes his very articulate and forceful speech in support. Well worth a listen:

    42. O/T Just heard a trailer for Scottish News on STV. Apparantly the SNP Government is apologising for child abuse in football. How long has this abuse been going on for? More than ten years, or just under the SNP Government?

      Wasn’t the BBC pulled up recently for introducing adverse stories in Scotland with ‘SNP Government’ instead of ‘Scottish Government’?

    43. Robert Peffers says:

      @Jack collatin says: 26 July, 2018 at 4:52 pm:

      ” … Robert, I doubt that I could be in the same room as these poisonous little illiterates.”

      Och! Jack, I wasn’t disagreeing with you – I was impressed by your turn of phrase. I joined Rosyth Dockyard in 1952 and, I kid you not, there wasn’t a single Scottish person in any rank of management from Chargehand upwards.

      It remained like that for decades. Even with a predominantly Scottish workforce they couldn’t find any Scots worthy of promotion to anything from chargehand upwards.

      So there you go I spent most of my working life being, “supervised”, by Englanders. Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not claiming all Englanders are incompetents. What I’m saying is that when they re-opened Rosyth in 1938 as WWII was imminent they imported the entire workforce from the southern yards.

      Obviously the people who applied as management were from lesser grades who obviously were taking the chances of promotion that they had not attained in their home dockyards. Then, of course, the first batch had a motive to keep worthy Scottish candidates out of management for the obvious reason that they didn’t want Scots promoted above them.

      So, believe me, I know that kind of mindset.

    44. Capella says:

      Correction – the person presenting the case for the Counsel General of Wales is Michael Fordham QC.
      I’ve just read that in the written statement.

    45. Douglas says:

      I know this off topic,and probably best answered by someone such as Robert Peffers.
      Was there ever any plan or intention after the Treaty of Union to have both a Scottish Parliament and an English Parliament run as parallel at Westminster? Or was due to laziness or by intention that the so-called UK Parliament would just subsume the Scottish parliamentarians leading to the political deficit that Scotland now experiences in this so – called Union of Equals
      Hope this makes sense,but I am curious. Thanks.

    46. Correction and apologies: The STV news item referred to the SFA, not the SNP Government. I need to wash my lugs out.

    47. Dan Huil says:

      Don’t forget: AUOB march in Inverness this Saturday.

    48. ronnie anderson says:

      Cappella Ah wiz getting intae correction mode wie your post at 5.40 then I seen your post at 6,01 no nonsense MR Fordham , straight into his submission withoot the waffle .

    49. galamcennalath says:

      Barnier and Raab, an astonishing appraisal by the Guardian …

      “The British negotiators have become increasingly frustrated with the EU’s attitude to the white paper thrashed out at the prime minister’s country retreat, and fear that it will take an intervention by leaders, most likely at a summit in Salzburg in September, to move the dial in favour of a deal.

      A number of cabinet ministers have been despatched around EU capitals to make their case for greater flexibility.”

      … they report the Tories’ plan and behaviour, giving it some credibility! UK frustrated with EU, FFS, what planet are Guardian journalists on!?

      For once it’s the headline which is accurate …

      “Michel Barnier tears up Theresa May’s Brexit customs proposals”

    50. stewartb says:

      Dipping into the Supreme Court proceedings online, and in particular listening to much of the representation made by the legal representatives of Scotland, NI and Wales, the focus of argument is, time and after time, on the issues of constraints/limitations imposed on the legislatures of the latter three countries, on the requirement (or not) to seek permission of Westminster or the requirement or not for Westminster to obtain ‘consent’.

      And never is there any question on comparable issues over whether the country of England has to justify its elected representatives’ ability to make decisions. The stark contrast in constitutional status – and power – comes over so strongly.

      Perhaps a Union by name, but not by status, power or practice. And Cameron claimed EVEL was necessary to redress an imbalance in power and influence that was disadvantaging the people of England! (Perhaps the real debate is whether Scotland is treated as a region of greater England or its colony.)

    51. Robert Peffers @6.00
      Robert, I had no sense that we were in any state of disagreement.
      I was merely letting off some steam.
      Like you, I worked in the real world for 42 years, and had a few English bosses, and most of my working life was spent wandering the highways and byways of Dear Old England plying my trade.
      I love England, and most of its people; I really do.
      But England is being run by a sinister Iron Heel Oligarchy now, and our MSM are their Scottish Propaganda poodles.
      They are hack whores whose wages and taxi fare should be left on the bed side table.
      Not for nothing did I coin the phrase ‘Dead Tree Scrolls’.
      Ancient myths written on perishable papyrus which crumbles to dust in the harsh light of bright sunlit truth.
      Trying to figure out how to catch the Aberdeen/Burnley game on TV somewhere.
      My son, despite me trying to brainwash him into being a lifelong Bankie when he was a toddler, supports Aberdeen…Figure it.
      Peace, Robert.

    52. mike cassidy says:

      and just to annoy the Rev.

      You can watch live coverage of the Europa league qualifier between The New Saints(Wales) and Lincoln Red Imps (Gibraltar) on the BBC red button channel.

      Aberdeen v Burnley? Don’t be silly!

    53. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      This nonsense anent prescription costs…as a senior Labour politician once said the SNP are providing generally better services than darn sarf and they are doing it intentionally.

      Clear case as you need to prove SNP baad.

    54. Big Jock says:

      Stewart – Devolution is a product of the union and WM. They are essentially arguing with the Lord Advocate about their own legislation. Let’s not forget, devolution was concocted by the unionist Labour party. All the traps and failings are there due to Dewar and co putting them there.

      The SNPs greater and more important argument about sovereignty, has nothing to do with devolution. Imagine if devolution had never happened. That’s essentially where we are going to end up. The SNP made the most they coukd of devolution, but thats over now. We are currently trying to delay WMs processes and protect devolved matters.

      Ultimately they WMs Scottish settlement is no longer fit for purpose. It took Brexit to illustrate this.

      The games a bogey.

    55. Capella says:

      @ ronnie anderson – beat you to it 🙂

      Joanna Cherry thinks the Scottish Government will lose the case in the Supreme Court. But she adds that politically that’s a win.

    56. Tackety Beets says:

      @ Jack

      I feel your pain.

      As a life long Dandy & lucky to have my lot inc gran kids all involved. All kitted with Dons tops tonight & our youngest at 5 at the game, makes me proud.

      BTW “Tattie” gets some accolades by the fans tonight. Hard to believe he is no longer with us.
      He Always made time for a chat.

      Mike, only to be expected , aul folk like me can catch it on the wireless.

      Hopefully see many of you in Inverness Sat.

    57. Brian McHugh says:

      In England, half of the people (the sane half) have to daily put up with far more Brexiteers than their Scottish counterparts, therefore there is a huge demand peak for anti-depressant medication south of the border. As everyone knows an excess in demand over supply increases price. Simple economics.

      That’s my theory anyway. 🙂

    58. Thepnr says:

      @Jack & Tackety Beets

      Livestream Aberdeen v Burnley 1-0 after a penalty to Aberdeen.

    59. jfngw says:

      @Big Jock

      Agree, devolution is effectively dead in the water, confirms that the scepticism of the SNP in the 1990’s that devolution would deliver real power has proved true. Westminster has decided it can change the devolved settlement at its wimp and the UK law officer effectively claims that England owns Scotland.

      There is only one choice now independence or flamingolandshire, where re-enactments of The White Heather Club will become mandatory.

    60. jfngw says:

      That should be whim (not sure how it became wimp).

    61. Legerwood says:

      I have posted this before but worth a reminder.

      From The UK Supreme Court’s judgement in the Gina Millar Appeal on Article 50

      “”149. In the Scotland Act 2016, the recognition of the Sewel Convention occurs alongside the provi sion in section 1 of that Act. That section, by inserting section 63A into the Scotland Act 1998, makes the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish government a permanent part of the United Kingdom’s constitutional arrangements, signifies the commitment of the UK Parliament and government to those devolved institutions, and declares that those institutions are not to be abolished except on the basis o f a decision of the people of Scotland voting in a referendum…””

      So the UK Government cannot unilaterally decide to close the Scottish Parliament. But it can emasculate its ability to function in any significant manner and the power grab resulting from the provisions of the EU Withdrawal Bill gives them just such an opportunity.

      Over time, possibly a relatively short time (7 years?), the impotence of the Parliament might mean if a referendum on the issue was called people would vote for closure.

    62. Big Jock says:

      Capella – Joanne Cherry described the SC decision as last chance saloon for devolution. If they vote against us , they are essentially dismantling the Scotland act.

      The SNP long thought they would lose, and it plays right into our hands. It shows who owns devolution and it ain’t us.

      Ultimately the Tories have just signed the unions death warrant.

    63. Chick McGregor says:

      Of course the Supreme Court will find against the SG, that is the entire reason for its existence, as I have been saying regularly on the net since before it was even formed.

      80s, Canada, Patriation Talks, that is where the ruse was born.

    64. One_Scot says:

      The bottom line is, we either become an Independent country via #ScotRef or we just stop pretending we are a country and accept that we are merely a county of England.

      It really is that simple.

    65. Liz g says:

      OT sorry
      Anyone (Robert)know what auld Lizzies actual title is in Scotland ?

    66. Petra says:


      I was talking to someone in the Military today, a Scot, who said he’s bailing out and that everyone he speaks to feels the same. He said the situation would be even worse next year as many individuals are due to retire. I asked him why English soldiers were being sent to Scotland whilst Scots were being sent to England and further afield. He said that by next year all Scots in the Miltary would be based in England. Something else they’re not happy about.

    67. Breeks says:

      Capella says:
      26 July, 2018 at 7:36 pm
      @ ronnie anderson – beat you to it ?

      Joanna Cherry thinks the Scottish Government will lose the case in the Supreme Court. But she adds that politically that’s a win.

      I fear she is correct. As for being a win politically, time will tell. It’s mightily tiresome seeing Scotland punched to the canvas and suffer one body blow after another. Even the most dedicated troops need their morale lifted now and again.

    68. Big Jock says:

      Two choices stay in the UK and watch Scotland’s parliament be slowly dismantled. Along with our flag,our identity, our health service and our products.

      Or get out by March 19. Incidently the eejit in the national who thinks September 2019 is a good date for the referendum. Needs to a see what we are seeing. Out of the EU Scotland will be held in eternal bondage by Westminster.

      The time is Westminsters friend . That’s what they have been doing from the day Sturgeon announced Indy ref 2. We have been sucked into Mays slow death timetable.

      I just hope the SNP are going to wait much longer to strike. Now is the time.

    69. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Liz g at 8:36 pm

      Liz I believe its old Betty.

    70. Big Jock says:

      Petra – Or do they expect to have to control Scotland , in the event we hold a consultative referendum. It would be unthinkable for Scottish troops to be sent to quell their own people!

    71. ronnie anderson says:

      liz g
      Does that answer your question xx.

    72. Big Jock says:

      Liz – In my hoose the Royals are known as unelected parasites. Not sure what their queens official name is. Probably brother bear!

    73. galamcennalath says:

      Petra says:

      by next year all Scots in the Miltary would be based in England

      Surely not? TBH it’s not something I’ve thought much about.

      RHQ: Edinburgh
      1st Battalion: Belfast WHY?
      2nd Battalion: Edinburgh
      3rd Battalion: Fort George
      4th Battalion Catterick WHY?
      Balaklava Company: Edinburgh
      6th Battalion: Glasgow
      7th Battalion: Perth

      Obvious ‘Scots in the Military’ would also mean the many branches, regiments, naval and air bases etc outwith the infantry RRS recruiting locally in Scotland.

      However, is the suggestion that Scots are intentionally being located outside Scotland?

      The Romans did that, legions were never based where they recruited from. Can’t run the risk of forces siding with the locals if things flare up!

    74. Legerwood says:

      Chick McGregor says:
      26 July, 2018 at 8:34 pm
      Of course the Supreme Court will find against the SG, that is the entire reason for its existence, as I have been saying regularly on the net since before it was even formed.””

      I think you will find that the Scottish Government has quite a good record of winning cases brought against that make it to the Supreme Court. The UK Government on the other hand does not have a great record of winning cases that make it to the Supreme Court

    75. Luigi says:

      Here’s one for you conspiracy nuts to ponder over:

      The rise of the SNP over the past four decades has coincided with an equally spectacularly fall in the performance of our national football team. The Bitnat blazers at the SFA and their BBC chums seem to have done everything in their power to diminish our football heritage (emasculation in pink shirts, no tv coverage etc). Can you imagine team England ever being forced to wear pink? National humiliation.

      Yep, since independence became a real threat, the powers that be are trying hard to all but finish off Scotland as a team. We are not allowed to watch their games live on tv. It’s as if they want us to forget that Scotland ever had a great football team (and they had some pretty darn good ones in the past).

      Fortunately, the recent success of Iceland and Croatia have blown their “too wee too stupid” narrative out of the water. I’m not sure how an independent Scotland football team would do, but could they do any worse than they have done under a non-existent union?

    76. Thepnr says:

      Regarding the military numbers in Scotland, it’s true they have fallen over recent years, but not just in Scotland.

      I posted a link to a spreadsheet in a post a week ago or so and still have the spreadsheet. So for some perspective.

      Total number of military personnel as of April 2012 based in.

      England 186,520
      Scotland 15,500

      That’s 8.3% and just about in line with population.

      Total number of military personnel as of Oct 2017.

      England 167,040
      Scotland 13,930

      That’s 8.3% and just about in line with population.

      In other words there has been no change whatsoever over the last 6 years as regards to the ratio of the number of military personnel between England and Scotland.

      We can’t slag off the other lot unless we remain as accurate as we possibly can be. Best we don’t give the other lot any ammunition using hearsay as our source.

    77. Big Jock says:

      Luigi- They just brought back that 4 time loser MCCleish. Yep the guy who got sacked from 3 clubs. The guy who is a Rangers fan and a unionist.Says it all.

    78. Robert Peffers says:

      @Liz g says: 26 July, 2018 at 8:36 pm:

      “…Anyone (Robert)know what auld Lizzies actual title is in Scotland?”

      You will be hard put to it to find an official statement other than this one I had in my archives. I have a reference to where I got it but it may not still be current:-

      Here is the Cut & Paste I have in my records:-

      The extract came after a bit about the vandalising of post boxes and Post Office vehicles that bore the EIIR cipher and then continues:-

      ” … Less publicised controversies included the argument that the monarch was addressed as Your Grace in the pre-union Kingdom of Scotland (the monarchs of Renaissance England had been called both “Your Grace” and “Your Majesty”) and that the standard title had been King/Queen of Scots (rex/regina scotorum) rather than of Scotland (rex/regina scotiae). At the opening ceremony of the devolved Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh in 1999, attended by the Queen, the Presiding Officer Lord Steel said at the close of his opening address: “It is good that today, once again, we the elected representatives of the people are able to welcome your majesty, not only as Queen of the United Kingdom, but seated as you are among us, to greet you in the historic and constitutionally correct manner, with warmth and affection, as Queen of Scots.” In 2002 Winnie Ewing, then president of the Scottish National Party, wrote to the Queen asking her to adopt the title “Elizabeth I” in Scotland … “

      I’ll leave you to check out if the Wiki Article has remained unchanged in the time since I noted it. As you may know anyone can edit Wiki and I’ve found, in the past, several critical and erroneous edits, (obviously by Britnats).

    79. Proud Cybernat says:


      UK GE definitely on the cards. How do I know? Sky News just there ramping up the Labour Anti-Senitic rhetoric. Which is exactly what both Sky & BBC did a couple of months prior to last GE being called by the Maybot.

    80. Breeks says:

      Luigi says:
      26 July, 2018 at 9:28 pm
      Here’s one for you conspiracy nuts to ponder over:

      You can probably tell I’m not a football nut, but nevermind pink strips and no TV coverage, the sectarianism and narrow minded bigotry with Rangers and Celtic has been a cringeworthy embarrassment to Scotland for decades.

      If I was charge of showcasing everything that was great about Scotland, I wouldn’t go within a hundred miles of a football match.

    81. RogueCoder says:

      Hi folks,

      ** blatant fundraiser plug warning **

      We’ve launched a crowdfunder to supply Yes groups all over Scotland with merchandise and campaign materials. The plan is to build 200 Indy Kits packed with goodies to help Yes groups fundraise for themselves, as well as a new generation of leaflets aimed at converting voters to independence. We’d really like to break the one million leaflet mark, and we’re hoping you can help us do it!

      We’re very pleased to have the Scottish Independence Foundation’s support for this project, and they will match-fund the first £8,000 raised. So that means for every £1 donated now, we’ll get £2 towards the project!

      Please help if you can. We need to be ready for what comes if there’s a no-deal hard Brexit.

    82. Clootie says:

      Yet another example of how the media in Scotland misleads the public. A “journalist” would have not only corrected for inflation he would have put it in context with all the nation’s of the U.K.

      10 years ago none of this bias could have been highlighted….The Internet and Stu have made a remarkable difference which must really piss off those who pretend to be journalist because they are employed by titles which ONCE represented a trusted source ( although I suspect it was still biased towards the Union…just a little less blatantly and certainty with more investigative effort)

      Do not trust the media when propaganda dominates their reports.

    83. Golfnut says:

      @ Liz g

      British Nationalists will tell you its Queen Elizabeth 11, of GB & NI, etc, etc etc. And they are correct. The Monarch gets decide what their title is, she chose or was advised and was crowned as QE2.
      The legalities are somewhat different, and the establishment have gone to great lengths to hide the true nature of the Queens actual position.
      The Union of the crowns, is actually 2 separate crowns on one head. James the Sixth move to create one kingdom was thwarted by both English and Scottish Parliaments when the proposal was rejected in 1603 and 1604 respectively.
      England’s rejection may well have been one of self preservation, since England would legally have been incorporated into Scotland, much the same as Ireland and Wales were incorporated into the English crown. So what we have now is a charade, pomp and circumstance to keep the masses ill informed. Not so much in Scotland though, we have never forgotten the reality of the Queens position.

      Her title in Scotland is Elizabeth, Queen of Scots. Simples, no number. Alex reminded her of her position by giving her a number at Parliaments opening.

      Charles, is the Duke of Rothsay, Earl of Carrick and Lord of the Isles. All titles which only the heir to the Scottish can hold. Bit long winded, but hope that helps.

    84. Thepnr says:

      I think we can accept that it’s the British Military so if your a Scot and unless you join a distinctly Scottish Regiment, say the Black watch then you can end up anywhere.

      The Royal Artillery or Engineers for example would certainly mean you were based in England same goes most definitely for the Navy or the RAF. We have no ships! Just the subs at Faslane and probably 8-10% of their crews will be Scottish and the rest English, welsh or N. Irish.

      Point is I don’t think for a second that they are moving out Scottish troops and replacing them with English. Even though I despise colonial rule from England that’s still a conspiracy too far, for me personally at least.

      Let’s keep it simple with the arguments we use to win over others.

    85. Dr Jim says:

      World war Brexit was a terrible time son there was no food or milk or medicine son, the government did the best they could what with the rationing and all, we all had books that we took to the foodbanks once a week where we got powdered milk and powdered eggs and sometimes if you were lucky you might get some jam that was sent up from England because they too much of it there

      Getting bread was the hardest though but we made do with some old flour and grass to hold it together so it went further, oh and tea how we missed a good cup of tea because well we used the same tea over and over again and we didn’t have tea bags like you get now because you couldn’t get them but we got some coffee from time to time from the yank soldiers at the barracks who were sent here to keep the peace because a lot of folk were angry at the English government, they say they caused all this trouble but I don’t remember it son that was way back in 2018 fifty years ago

    86. Golfnut says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Aye Robert, Steele went straight to the heart of the matter, ‘ constitutionally ‘, she is Queen of Scots. And constitutionally Westminster is not sovereign. The Queen of England rents her sovereignty to Westminster for England, Wales and NI only. The SP is being asked open a can of worms, can’t wait.

    87. Robert Peffers says:

      @Big Jock says: 26 July, 2018 at 8:57 pm:

      ” … I just hope the SNP are going to wait much longer to strike. Now is the time.”

      I believe I’ll just go with the FM and her advisors rather than Big Jock and, to date Nicola has called it absolutely correctly.

      BTW: The news headline today is:-


      And anyone with a reasonable knowledge of how the European Union works knew that was what was going to happen.

      From before the formal letter went in from May saying the UK was leaving the EU & EC has said the four Freedoms must be kept and there would be no Cherry Picking. They have been as good as their word. BR UKEXIT was always going to be a disastrous EXIT over a cliff face.

      It will probably end the United Kingdom and cause long delayed English, Welsh and N.Irish Revolutions and leave England isolated with EU member states on every side except across the pond to the United States of America.

    88. McDuff says:

      And again I say , how do we get the Revs articles which reveal the truth out into the wider population.
      And again I say why is the National not printing this stuff which would definitely open the eyes of a great many potential yes voters.

    89. Thepnr says:


      Can you give us a clue?

    90. Big Jock says:

      Robert I have been in the SNP all my life. I like and respect Nicola. However she is not infallible. She got the last general election wrong. That gave the Tories ammunition. We didn’t take on Westminster on the right territory. Our vote never came out.

      I say name the date for the referendum. That might be March 2019 ,but why not announce some sort of date. We don’t seem to be taking anything but punches at the moment. I believe time is precious. We can’t go on much longer without action.

      Ultimately Sturgeon might be right and I might be wrong. We all believe in the same thing. But we also all have different opinions on the way forward. I fear waiting too long is dangerous and I am not alone.

    91. Danny says:

      After we vote to become an Independent Nation next year, we will then apply for membership of the EU.

      We will be accepted with open arms.

      Then the fun begins, because Scotland will become the 28th Nation of the EU and be directly involved in the trade talks with Brexit England.

      We will have the power to Veto any trade deals with England just the same as the Republic of Ireland has at this moment in time.

      English Foreigners who want to visit Scotland will also have to apply for a Visa to enter the Country.

      How the tables will have turned.

      This Independence thing sounds really cool.


    92. ronnie anderson says:

      RogueCoder Crowd funder shared & no doubt the Wings Stall volunteers will donate ah few bawbee’s after Inverness .

    93. Stuart mclean says:

      Hi I heard this also from a soldier who explained that all will be based outside Scotland in near future.
      The statistics regarding the ratio does not reflect that 1000,s of stationed soldiers especially in the senior positions are based in England therefore the financial benefits to local communities are not realised.

      Scotland were promised that the soldiers returning from Germany would be based here. This was to compensate for closure of raf facilities. However this was reneged upon also.

      I am sure Wings did an article showing the disproportionate spend in Scotland demonstrating what was been allocated to Scotland as spend on the balance sheet to the reality of a huge underspend across all the forces based here.

      E.g no ships based in Scotland yet we have two thirds of the UK coastline.

      So definitely not a conspiracy theory but has had me wondering what the British State are up to that would necessitate such a strategy.

    94. stewartb says:

      On the status of the monarch in Scotland, this reported by the BBC in 2002:

      ‘The Queen has been urged to change her title as she prepares to visit Scotland as part of her Golden Jubilee tour. According to the Scottish National Party, the Queen, when in Scotland, should be known as Elizabeth I, Queen of Scots, rather than Elizabeth II. The SNP said the change would correct ‘a bad mistake’ made by her advisers 50 years ago.

      Buckingham Palace declined to comment on the issue.

      SNP president Dr Winnie Ewing said that a letter she sent to the Queen was “a respectful request” to correct a mistake. The party said that in 1952, many Scots felt “strongly” their nationhood was downgraded by her title. The Elizabethan era predated the Act of Union and Scotland therefore never had an Elizabeth I, the SNP has asserted. A legal challenge to Scotland’s senior law officer, the Lord Advocate, was made in 1953 over the use of the title in Scotland.

      Explaining the move Dr Ewing said: “This is a respectful request to the Queen to use the occasion of the Golden Jubilee to put to rights a bad mistake that her advisers made in 1952. “When the Queen came to the opening of the Scottish Parliament in 1999, our own Presiding Officer, Sir David Steel, made the point that her correct title in Scotland should really be Queen of Scots.

      “Things have changed so much over the past 50 years – the monarchy has changed, Scotland has changed with our own parliament, and a change in the Queen’s title in Scotland to reflect Scottish nationhood would be a very welcome and appropriate reform.” In her letter, Dr Ewing wrote: “The Scottish people have long understood that since there was never an Elizabeth I of Scotland, the question of Her Majesty’s title in Scotland has been controversial.’


      Three things stand out from this for me: (i) the reference to David Steel’s speech is to what Steele said SHOULD be the Monarch’s title in Scotland not what it ACTUALLY IS – why else phrase his speech in this way; (ii) the Monarch appears to have SIMPLY IGNORED Winnie Ewing’s ‘respectful’ request; and (iii) Scots Law in 1953 did NOT OFFER A SECURE BASIS of respect for Scotland’s nationhood and constitutional history (and nor for the recognition of a different status for the present monarch when in Scotland) – would it now?

    95. Thepnr says:

      @Stuart mclean

      “I heard this also from a soldier who explained that all will be based outside Scotland in near future.”

      Stuart I’m not having a dig but the whole point of Wings is debunking British Nationalist mince/rumours/lies printed in the press with verifiable facts. That means providing evidence.

      Now what the soldier told you may be or may not be true, in other words right now it is just hearsay. This isn’t facebook and if anyone has the facts to back up what you’ve been told I’d be glad to hear them here on Wings.

    96. Robert Peffers says:

      @Thepnr says: 26 July, 2018 at 9:40 pm:

      R” … Regarding the military numbers in Scotland, it’s true they have fallen over recent years, but not just in Scotland.”

      That is true but it totally misses the point. The point being that the powers that be are moving the Scottish troops out of Scotland and replacing them with troops from other countries in the union and, going by the history of incidents when a Westminster Government put armed United Kingdom troops, (complete with armoured tanks and other armed vehicles), they kept the Scottish regiments, (and Scots personnel in the corps), lock in barracks in England.

      BTW: Churchill wasn’t the only PM to put tanks on Scottish streets against the public.

      Not only that but I have first hand experience of elite troops wearing police uniforms to actually physically assault peaceful union picket lines.

      I stood outside Rosyth Dockyard and at clocking out time, when the non-union workers were due to finish their shifts, the local police were bussed away in the busses that delivered loads of very large guys in police uniforms who very militarily marched down from the busses in three abrest well drilled lines.

      Within three yards of where I stood was an English near neighbour’s eldest son. He was in the SAS – not the police force. I guess they didn’t know his mother was a Scot.

      These guys physically assaulted people without any provocation by the pickets. They also arrested several people who had done absolutely nothing wrong. Remember all this was going on around the same time as the miners strike.

    97. Big Jock says:

      I would like to think Scotland would simply drop the Royals, post Indy. They are a hangover from empire, and Westminster rule.

      Do what the Irish did and bin them . They have bled us long enough.

    98. Thepnr says:

      @Stuart mclean

      Just wanted to add that I appreciated you taking the time to post your views. Please don’t let my response put you of from doing so in future as I said it is not directed at you personally.

    99. Petra says:

      @ Thepnr ……. “Point is I don’t think for a second that they are moving out Scottish troops and replacing them with English.”

      Thepnr you posted data earlier (9:40pm) outlining the ratio of the number of military personnel based in Scotland and England, as of 2017. I would imagine that the figures are probably correct, however they don’t tell us how many of the 13,930 individuals based in Scotland are actually Scots.

      You say, ” that’s still a conspiracy too far, for me personally at least.”

      I say, I posted information imparted to me today and quite deliberately omitted to mention my opinion of the state of affairs. I know the person well and he’s not known to be a drama queen, liar or the type of person who wants to stir things up. In other words I believe him. Why would he lie about that, especially as this, he says, is taking place in the near future (unless Westminster decides to change tack)?

      You also say, “let’s keep it simple with the arguments we use to win people over.”

      I didn’t post my comments to win people over Thepnr, as I have no idea why Scottish troops are being told they’re being relocated to England. Additionally we’re on here searching for the truth, trying to make sense of and redress the effects of MSM propaganda, in the main: Dealing with their propaganda techniques such as blatant lying, cherry-picking and omission. It’s great when we have facts like Stu to counteract their lies, but in many instances the facts don’t emerge until a later date. That shouldn’t lead to us saying nothing at all on here, imo. Let’s just keep our eye on the situation. If this has to happen in the next year or so, the truth, either way, will emerge soon enough.

    100. Big Jock says:

      To be honest. I think nothing is beyond the realms of possibility with the Brits. Having English soldiers in Scotland makes perfect sense strategically.

      If you might have to intervene with the military in Scotland. You would not want to use natives. It might be conspiracy sounding but logically WM would just be protecting their interests.

      Why has Mundell just moved 100s of civil servants to Scotland? They intend to take those 24 powers and run them from London with civil servants in Edinburgh. The SC ruling will be ignored if we win it. The Tories have already started putting in their people.

    101. Thepnr says:


      Let’s hope the truth does emerge. I’m not accusing anyone of being a liar, least of all you or your friend. Stories have legs and can grow and because someone tells you something that they believe to be true doesn’t make them a liar.

      Did you read my later post?

      Of course I acknowledge that troops will be relocated all the time. What I’m doubtful about is that Scottish troops based here in Scotland are being replaced by troops from the rUK.

      That’s it, I’m doubtful and until evidence can be provided I will remain doubtful. That’s probably why I read Wings I take EVERYTHING I hear with a pinch of salt and when in doubt will go and look out more sources so as I can gain greater insight.

      So far I know of nothing that suggests all the Scottish troops are being moved out of Scotland since I’ve seen no evidence of that and since the numbers of military based in Scotland remain the same.

      Then who are these replacements and where are they from?

    102. Danny says:

      The Soldiers who drove the Tanks into George Sq in Glasgow in 1919 were meant to be English.

      They didn’t want Scots troops opening fire on fellow Scots.

      “Government concerns about industrial militancy and revolutionary political activity in Glasgow reached new heights after the events of 31 January 1919. Fears within government of a workers’ revolution in Glasgow led to the deployment of troops and tanks in the city.”

      “An estimated 10,000 English troops in total were sent to Glasgow in the immediate aftermath of the Battle of George Square. This was in spite of a full battalion of Scottish soldiers being stationed at Maryhill barracks in Glasgow at the time. No Scottish troops were deployed, with the government fearing that fellow Scots, soldiers or otherwise, would go over to the workers side if a revolutionary situation developed in Glasgow.”

    103. Robert Peffers says:

      @Thepnr says: 26 July, 2018 at 10:07 pm:

      ” … I think we can accept that it’s the British Military so if your a Scot and unless you join a distinctly Scottish Regiment, say the Black watch then you can end up anywhere.”

      Well, not exactly, but there is no reason that non-Scots, or even non-British individuals can sign up to any regiment. In any case the old regiments are all lumped together now.

      ” … The Royal Artillery or Engineers for example would certainly mean you were based in England same goes most definitely for the Navy or the RAF.”

      Nope! Not true. First of all the Engineers and so on are not regiments, they are corps. My cousin was in the navy and his home base was Portsmouth during his entire career in the navy.

      I worked in Rosyth Dockyard, which was also then a Wren’s Base and an Artificers Training establishment, as well as being a naval base and a Dockyard.

      I cannot recall any Scots based in the Rosyth Naval Base. There may have been some but in 50 years I never met any. Bear in mind the a home base is not the same as where you are currently based. When you sign on you are allocated a home base. Then you get posted to a ship or boat and that too has a home base.

      Put that in another context, Each RN ship or boat, (all submarines are boats BTW), has a home Base and every person in the navy has a home base. Which in some cases is a shore establishment.

      A rating could be on a ship that had Portsmouth as its home base but the ratings home base could be Devonport. So when the ship is decommissioned no matter where it is currently based it decommissions back at its home base. Same with a person. They go back to their home base to be paid off.

      My cousin was serving at Rosyth in a ship that had Rosyth as it’s home base. On leaving the service he was returned to Pompey to get paid off and that meant the service paid for him to go from Rosyth to Portsmouth, paid him off, and then paid for him to return home to Edinburgh. So regiments are area based but corps are not.

    104. Thepnr says:

      How much longer do you think Wings might be seen as a serious commentator on all things Independence related if it was to rely on hearsay rather than facts?

    105. Thepnr says:

      @Robert Peffers

      “Nope! Not true. First of all the Engineers and so on are not regiments, they are corps. My cousin was in the navy and his home base was Portsmouth during his entire career in the navy.”

      I never said either the Engineers or Artillery were regiments, your second sentence makes the point for me about any Scot joining the Royal Navy would most likely NOT be based in Scotland.

    106. Robert Peffers says:

      @Big Jock says: 26 July, 2018 at 10:46 pm:

      ” … However she is not infallible. She got the last general election wrong.”

      Oh! For God’s sake Big Jock, talk sense.

      It was a GENERAL ELECTION”, and how the hell can anyone, of sound mind, get a general election wrong?

      And I quote:-

      “A general election is an election in which all or most members of a given political body are chosen. These are usually held for a nation’s primary legislative body, as distinguished from by-elections and local elections. “

      In plain English a General Election is ONLY to choose the Member of the United Kingdom Parliament to serve for the constituency the voter is registered to vote in.

      It has absolutely nothing to do with anything else. Not Devolution, not independence, not local councils, not even European MEPs – Only to select the Westminster Member of parliament to represent the constituency a particular voter is registered to vote in.

      Incidentally the term, “Constituency”, is derived from, “Constituent parts of the United Kingdom”, and not constituent parts of either a UK Kingdom or a UK country.

      The original idea was to divide the entire United Kingdom up into roughly fairly equal bits with roughly the same numbers of voters in each constituency. This so that everyone elected was more or less equal.

      That didn’t last long because the elected members, once elected and almost immediately, (and for their good not the voters), form themselves as political parties.

      ” … That gave the Tories ammunition. We didn’t take on Westminster on the right territory. Our vote never came out.”


      They sure as hell didn’t come out – but not because Nicola got it wrong but because the non-coming-out non-voters numpties got it wrong. What the hell else did they imagine a GENERAL ELECTION was for?

      They, the non-voters allowed the Tories to fool them into believing that a general election wasn’t to select their representative at Westminster.

      The only political party in the entire, (So called), United Kingdom, that actually fought a General Election was the SNP.

      The rest, (cleverly), worked a centuries old confidence trick and the non-voting-numpties bought the proverbial, “Pig in a poke”. or bought that other proverbial thing in a poke, “A Pup”.

      Just for the record here too is the origins of the term, “Sold a pig in a poke”:-

      “The idioms , “pig in a poke”, and, “sell a pup (or buy a pup in a poke) both refer to a confidence trick originating in the Late Middle Ages, when meat was scarce, but cats and dogs were not.

      The scheme entailed the sale of a suckling pig in a poke. The bag, sold unopened, would actually contain a cat or dog, which was substantially less valuable as a source of meat.”

      So please do not class Nicola as the fool for the real fools were those that didn’t know they were electing ONLY an MP for their constituency. Which is the reason we are now faced with the prospect of the Blue/Red/YellowyOrange unionists at Westminster dragging Scots out of the European Union struggling, kicking and spitting but determined to blame Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP for the situation they voted for themselves.

    107. Robert Peffers @ 12.49 am

      A simply stunning riposte to ‘Big Jock’s. blame NS for the UK GE result.
      Chapeaux, sirrah.

    108. Liz g says:

      Re Auld Lizzies Scottish title
      Thanks for all the replies… even the LOL one’s.
      What she was actually called here was one of those thing’s,I didn’t know,I didn’t know,till someone asked me…
      Must admit that like the Your Grace address it’s a much more dignified way to do it ( not that I agree with any of it) rather than calling another human being Majesty….

    109. twathater says:

      @ Capella 6.01 pm thanks for the link to the Welsh submission , this to me highlights the fact that the SC should have struck down treezas application .

      The vary fact that it was the SC themselves who ruled in AXA that where the democratically elected devolved legislatures act within the scope of the devolution frameworks laid down by Parliament, their acts are reviewable by the courts only on very limited grounds, and only where fundamental rights or the very essence of the rule of law is at stake.

      So if the SG are working within the devolution framework the SC will not be able to make a determination

      Part 4 of Welsh submission
      The fourth point in my case deals with the scope of the courts’ common law power to review Assembly legislation. The Supreme Court made it clear in AXA that where the democratically elected devolved legislatures act within the scope of the devolution frameworks laid down by Parliament, their acts are reviewable by the courts only on very limited grounds, and only where fundamental rights or the very essence of the rule of law is at stake. The Scottish Continuity Bill is not, in my submission, legislation of that extreme kind.

    110. Chick McGregor says:


      “I think you will find that the Scottish Government has quite a good record of winning cases brought against that make it to the Supreme Court. The UK Government on the other hand does not have a great record of winning cases that make it to the Supreme Court”

      Smoke and mirrors. Time will soon tell.

    111. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      stewartb @ 19:00:

      And Cameron claimed EVEL was necessary to redress an imbalance in power and influence that was disadvantaging the people of England!

      Well reminded. Yet another case of England saying “heads I win, tails you lose”. Or “do as I say, not as I do”.

      Viewed from the perspective of Cameron’s EVEL play, the power grab is a pure affront – a cynical exercise in the UKGov pushing its luck in the face of what they believe is a passive (and media passivated) public-at-large. But its arrogance may be its eventual undoing, as the bitter reality begins to sink in.

      As in the SC business over the Withdrawal Bill. I don’t have the expertise of the likes of Joanna Cherry to make any kind of well-informed guess, but for me it doesn’t really matter whether the SG wins or loses. It’s a win-win situation. With a useful side-serving of publicity along the way.

    112. Macart says:

      That went well then.

    113. Dorothy Devine says:

      I see the largest nugget of gold ever found in Britain was found by British man in a Scottish river.

      Never say ‘Scottish’ or ‘Scotland ‘ if it can be avoided eh?

    114. Thepnr @12.22 am:-

      If memory serves, the whole of the UK’s submarine fleet is moving to Faslane from Devonport by 2022.
      5000 submariners will be based in our waters, and their families, who will ‘take roots’ (Michael Fallon, remember him?) in Scotland.
      Where’s the weed killer when you need it?
      They’re spending £1.5 billion expanding Faslane. It will include the Submariners College and lots of ‘English’ marines and so on.
      They are fucking invading us as I write.
      And not so much as a ‘by your leave’ to us ‘vassals’.
      They’re not too happy at losing their nuclear powered attack subs down Devon way either.
      They are literally sending gun boats up the Clyde to quell local unrest and stamp the Empire’s military authority on its Northern Outpost.
      Jackie Baillie will be pleased.

    115. Tackety Beet says:

      Whilst looking for info on A96 crash I stumbled across this.

    116. Smallaxe says:

      Employment in Scotland: get the facts;

      Mundell’s slammed over ‘shameless’ demands for Scottish Govt to buy defunct Pinneys factory;

      Indycar Gordon Ross 26 07 18 Supreme Court and State of Emergency;

      Showing Resolve;

    117. Luigi says:

      Big Jock says:
      26 July, 2018 at 10:46 pm
      Robert I have been in the SNP all my life. I like and respect Nicola. However she is not infallible. She got the last general election wrong. That gave the Tories ammunition. We didn’t take on Westminster on the right territory. Our vote never came out.

      Och Jock, I think you are being a tad unfair on Nicola. The snap GE came out of the blue. How was Nicola expected to anticipate a moment of utter madness from May (who damaged herself far worse than the SNP)?

      Yep, the SNP took a hit (mainly because the BritNats Ruthie and Kezia got their act together in time) but remain to this day the dominant party in Scotland. Not bad considering. Sometimes you just can’t factor in how stupid your opponents will be – you just have to indulge them their Phyrric victory, their moment of madness. Events, dear boy, events…:)

    118. Smallaxe says:

      Scotland the brand;

      Rotting berries are the result of rotten employment practices;

      VIDEO: Expert discusses Brexit ‘uncertainty window’ for North Sea;

      Britain’s largest gold nugget found on Scottish riverbed;

    119. Smallaxe says:

      Ex-chairman of Lloyd’s of London’s devastating letter on Brexit;

      (Golden Oldie)
      As a British EU negotiator, I can tell you that Brexit is going to be far worse than anyone could have guessed


      Brexit is bad news for Brits who get in trouble abroad;

    120. Smallaxe says:

      The government’s new benefits savings scheme is peak hypocrisy;

      Newsnight’s heatwave tweet shows BBC still vulnerable to false balance on climate change;

      Britain Quietly Passes Vital Brexit Amendment That Could Hurt World’s Poorest;


    121. Smallaxe says:

      Boris Johnson may have saved the EU
      In the wake of the Brexit vote, support for the EU around the continent is at its highest since 1983;

      Labour joins the calls for Scottish Tories to come clean over ‘dark money’;

      What a no-deal Brexit would mean for Britain’s energy markets;

      SDLP call for single anti-Brexit candidate to take on Ian Paisley in North Antrim;

    122. Smallaxe says:

      Pro-Brexit Labour MP who voted to keep Theresa May in power suffers UNANIMOUS Vote of No Confidence;

      Letters: Here’s why Sturgeon should lead the EUref2 campaign;

      A break from Brexit: UK PM May to holiday in Italy, Switzerland;

      EU-US trade truce falters on Day 1 over farming;

    123. Smallaxe says:

      Theresa May heads to Austria for Brexit talks;

      Will EU teacher fall hit recruitment?;

      Labour MP Paul Sweeney: new thinking puts Clyde ‘frigate factory’ back on agenda;

      Scottish government in Supreme Court Brexit battle is dress rehearsal for IndyRef2;

      Have a great weekend, Wingers.

    124. Robert Peffers says:

      @Thepnr says: 27 July, 2018 at 12:22 am:

      ” … I never said either the Engineers or Artillery were regiments”.

      No you didn’t but this comment confirms you still have not understood the significance of them being a Corp.

      All , including the Scottish Regiments have specific traditional recruitment areas, for example the Black Watch that you quoted recruits in Fife/Perth & Kinross Shires. However, Corps are based upon acquired |Skills and have no traditional recruitment areas.

      ” and your second sentence makes the point for me about any Scot joining the Royal Navy would most likely NOT be based in Scotland.”

      No but you omitted the fact that naval personnel, “home based”,in Scotland are mainly not Scots. Someone else made the point that this is a deliberate MOD policy for the reason of NOT basing local people in their home UK country in case of insurrection by locals against the government.

      I pointed out the additional fact that on the historic occasions the government has ordered armed troops on Scottish streets the Scottish troops were locked up in their quarters. It is plainly government policy and, BTW, it costs substantially more as the home leave travel costs were, (and probably still are), paid out of tax payers money.

    125. Capella says:

      BBC reporting that Alex Salmond won’t be chair of Johnston Press news group. A “poison pill” clause blamed

      Investor drops Alex Salmond from role in newspaper bid –

    126. Bill says:

      Civvies explaining the dichotomy of armed forces national identities has me in stitches.

    127. Bill says:

      WTAF: ‘No but you omitted the fact that naval personnel, “home based”,in Scotland are mainly not Scots. Someone else made the point that this is a deliberate MOD policy for the reason of NOT basing local people in their home UK country in case of insurrection by locals against the government.“

      1. There is no barriers to Scots selecting their drafting preferences or joining the Submarine Service.
      2. And as for insurrection by locals, there is no need to place English only servicemen in Scotland we were suitably brain washed into hating civvies, hating our backgrounds and upbringing. We even had training sessions where we simulated locals attacking us on the quay side.

    128. Ken500 says:

      The Scotsman JP is basically bankrupt. Worth £3Million with £200Million debts. Driven to extinction by unionists lies milking for all it is worth. It will certainly have to change direction if it is to be resurrected. Unlikely in any case. More likely sold off and asset stripped. Mr Salmond will be in on it if shares are bought or acquired. Or it will just expire.

    129. Robert Peffers says:

      Liz g says: 27 July, 2018 at 1:32 am:

      ” … Must admit that like the Your Grace address it’s a much more dignified way to do it ( not that I agree with any of it) rather than calling another human being Majesty…”

      Aye! Liz g, but be aware that, “Your Grace”, isn’t much better if you really think about it.

      Ask yourself the question what the Term, “Grace”, refers to and it is religion. The full term is, “By God’s Grace”, and if you read the Treaty of Union, (including the preamble), you will be aware that it is based upon the domination of Protestant Christianity over Roman Catholic Christianity.

      The Treaty, (Article 2), begins with this:-

      “Article II.

      THAT the Succession of the Monarchy to the United Kingdom of Great Britain, and of the Dominions thereto belonging, after Her Most Sacred Majesty, and in Default of Issue of Her Majesty, be, remain, and continue to the Most Excellent Princess Sophia, Electoress and Dutchess Dowager of Hanover, and the Heirs of her Body being Protestants, upon whom the Crown of England is settled by an Act of Parliament made in England in the twelfth Year of the Reign of his late Majesty King William the Third, Intituled, An Act for the further Limitation of the Crown, and better securing the Rights and Liberties of the Subject: And that all Papists, and Persons marrying Papists, shall be excluded from, and forever incapable to inherit, possess, or enjoy the Imperial Crown of Great Britain, and the Dominions thereunto belonging, or any Part thereof, and in every such Case the Crown and Government shall from time to time descend to, and be enjoyed by such Person being a Protestant, as should have inherited and enjoyed the same in case such Papist or Person marrying a Papist, was naturally Dead according to the Provision for the Descent of the Crown of England, made by another Act of Parliament in England in the first Year of the Reign of their late Majesties King William and Queen Mary entituled An Act declaring the Rights and Liberties of the Subject, and settling the Succession of the Crown.”

      The bolding in the quote is by me. It is often overlooked by readers but when so highlighted it puts a different shade of meaning on the Treaty.

      Also note the reference to, “Dominions thereof” that the casual reader automatically thinks of such as North America, Australia and New Zealand but history records that both Scotland & England colonised North America in 1607 and Australia in 1788 but neither were, “Dominions”, before the Treaty of Union. In fact the dominions the treaty refers to are Wales & Ireland that were, in 1707, kingdom of England dominions. So the Treaty was NOT referring to The north American colonies nor Australia and New Zealand.

    130. Ken500 says:

      There will be a GE which the Tories will lose to try and get them out of their mess. They continue to sanction and starved people to death. The rest are just as bad. Just appalling. Lining their pockets with public money. Wasting £Billions. Trying to take down the world economy. A total absolute shambles. Indy2 coming soon.

    131. Capella says:

      @ Smallaxe – these “Get the Facts” articles from the SNP website are just what we need to counter the constant propaganda efforts of the MSM. Great idea.

      I’ve just read the one you inked to “Employment in Scotland” and a couple of others, “Scotland’s Economy” and “Scotland’s Strong Expoer Performnce”.

      Let’s hope there will be many more added soon.

    132. Les Wilson says:


      Thanks for all your work with supplying the links, some really good stuff there and a lot to get through. Well done, have a good weekend.

    133. Macart says:

      Worth reading and bookmarking

      Personally, I’m sick of Labour’s rewriting of history and they’ve lived well off that particular myth for too long. They also brought a great deal of misery to a great many people on the back of it.

    134. Breeks says:

      Smallaxe says:
      27 July, 2018 at 7:33 am

      Letters: Here’s why Sturgeon should lead the EUref2 campaign;

      No, no, and third time louder, no!

      I don’t want another EU Referendum. We have a rock solid Remain majority in Scotland which presents itself as the anvil upon which the Union breaks.

      For Westminster to force Scotland out of Europe against its will is unconstitutional before Scotland’s popular Sovereignty, a Sovereignty which the Palace of Westminster itself recently reaffirmed, and Brexit represents an act of subjugation which, by itself, will constitute a material breach of the Treaties of Union, and so breached, the contract of Union will cease to exist.

      Change nothing, except perhaps the speed and urgency of Scotland’s emancipation.

      It isn’t Scotland which needs a second EuroRef, it is the rest of the UK which needs to rethink its own economic suicide.

      That isn’t heartless indifference. It is putting Scotland first. But, paradoxically, Scotland actually pledged to Remain in Europe could provide South Britain with a Brexit lifeline. I firmly believe that Scotland could flourish in Europe on its merits alone, but I also believe Scotland could flourish even more by presenting a solution to the damaging stand-off between Europe and South Britain.

      I firmly believe an Indy Scotland, with no land border to the Continent, could make a credible argument that Scotland in the EU could cite the existing trade links with the rest of the UK as a legitimate reason to explore the possibility of Scotland being a buffer state / gobetween for the EU and South Britain.

      Europe gets UK trade without UK interference, South Britain gets its isolationist pipe dream but the people don’t starve, and Scotland gets an amicable divorce with its Independence, a huge amount of Kudos for fining a “Middle way” through the Brexit catastrophe, and a balance of trade which goes through the roof.

      Could / should Scotland do that? Yes. I believe it should.

      Would Europe buy it? Yes, I think so. Westminster at arms length, but trade issues resolved and EU disintegration stopped in its tracks.

      Would South Britain go for it? Well if they don’t, they ought to. Sadly there is nobody in South Britain with the vision, courage and leadership to alleviate the unfolding state of emergency. The Brexiteering BritNats lack the basic survival instinct which suggest when you are stuck in a hole you stop digging.

      But just imagine the circumstance where Westminster essentially concedes to the legitimacy of Scottish Sovereignty, forfeits the Union of 1707, but salvages a new Trading Union with Scotland which provides South Britain with a quasi-European Trade Agreement. We Scots free ourselves from the shackles of the United Kingdom, but in an amicable arrangement which Westminster recognises must succeed. And Europe isn’t exactly letting South Britain off the hook, – Westminster is gone from the EU, but South British Trade can continue, filtered through the buffer state of Scotland which can live with a hard border at Scottish Ports, thus solving the Northern Ireland problem, but also endorsing a soft(ish) border between Scotland and England.

      Yes, Scotland could in those circumstances face ongoing contamination of food standards and South British divergence from EU standards, but Scotland would also be a full EU Member with the full weight of EU sanctions and muscle to “oblige” South Britain to remember which side of its bread is buttered.

      So no, I do not put forward our Nicola as a EuroRef2 Champion. We should go for the jugular, oblige South Britain to recognise its imminent catastrophe, and present them with an Indy Scotland economic lifeline.

      Do that, secure Westminster’s blessing for a free and independent Scottish intermediary, and Unionism here in Scotland suddenly has nowhere to turn, but many soft Unionists may be persuaded that a Trading Union which helps both Nations might be an acceptable compromise to acrimonious division.

      South Britain needs a politician of great stature and vision to step forward, bad sadly, I fear there are none.

    135. Smallaxe says:

      Capella & Les Wilson;

      Thanks for reading and commenting on the links, I am mentored by the ‘BEST’, Nana.

      Ending UK involvement in torture: lip service is not enough;

    136. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Guardian going all ‘blame them unreasonable foreigners’.

      “A humiliating Brexit deal risks a descent into Weimar Britain”

    137. Smallaxe says:

      Breeks says:
      “Smallaxe says:
      27 July, 2018 at 7:33 am
      Letters: Here’s why Sturgeon should lead the EUref2 campaign;
      No, no, and third time louder, no!”

      I just post the links, Breeks, my friend. I don’t write them!
      It wisnae me!
      😉 🙂

    138. Robert Peffers says:

      Bill says: 27 July, 2018 at 8:14 am:

      ” … 1. There is no barriers to Scots selecting their drafting preferences or joining the Submarine Service.”

      What has that got to do with anything?

      “2. And as for insurrection by locals, there is no need to place English only servicemen in Scotland we were suitably brain washed into hating civvies, hating our backgrounds and upbringing. We even had training sessions where we simulated locals attacking us on the quay side.”

      Who is this, “We”, you speak of?

    139. Breeks says:

      Understood Smallaxe, my fault, but it wasn’t you I meant, but the theme of the link I disagreed with.

      Your links are brilliant, and a great stimulus for hopefully constructive supporting comments or reasoned disagreement.

      It wasn’t my intention to shoot the messenger. 😉

    140. Smallaxe says:


      I was well aware of your intention, my friend, it’s just my daft sense of humour.
      Have a great weekend.

    141. Ken500 says:


      The 70’s chaos. Income and rent controls which did not work. Made people worse off.

      1978-79 The winter of discontent. Three day week, candles, rubbish piled on the street and the dead not getting buried. The McCrone Report hidden for 30 years.

      Blair illegal wars. Brown banking crisis. Costing £Billions. Bombing the Middle Radt to bits for years. Causing the worst migration situation in Europe since 11WW. Costing £Trns.

      Cameron/Clegg and May the Brexit crisis trying to bring down the world evonomy. Costing £Trns. Making them £Millions of wasted public money. The Westminster unionists ignorant useless incompetents.

    142. galamcennalath says:

      Ken500 says:

      There will be a GE which the Tories will lose to try and get them out of their mess.

      Probably. It will remove the Tories from the ongoing Brexit shambles, but every indication is the shambles would continue under Labour. If it was a Lab gov which needed SNP and LibDem votes in WM to do anything, then Brexit would go Norway style, unless Lab were daft enough to use Tory votes to continue on the ‘hard route’.

      Normally, I would say a Lab gov, or the prospect of one replacing Tories, would be damaging to the cause of Indy. However, a Lab gov which proved they actually were just Red BritNat Tories might be a bonus. It would prove to every Scot that the WM parties are just multi coloured Tories, and they all put England first.

    143. manandboy says:

      Treacherous, devious, downright dishonest – the hallmarks of Theresa May’s Tory Govt.

      Have the Tories ever been any different?

    144. mike cassidy says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker 9.08

      The Guardian must have left Timothy Garton Ash out in the sun too long!

    145. @Smallaxe

      Fake Downing Street ‘protesters’ could mark a sinister new trend for the UK;

      fake protesters/supporters definitely used in Indy1 by the Britnats encouraged by the corrupt Scottish media,

      just like in Bullingdon Boy David Dimblebys BBC QT when they bus up Britnats from England to infiltrate the audiences in Scotland,

      all part of the Fake News/Astroturfing/Cambridge Analytica SCL Group/facebook/Local Democracy Reporters/Gary Robertson manipulation of all sources of information,


      paying for protesters has been going on since Ancient Greek/Roman times and probably before that,

      there is also the practice of paying protesters to infiltrate the opposition and bring them into disrepute like the

      TORY SCUM OUT banner.

    146. galamcennalath says:

      Just seen a series of Vote Leave ads. Shocking.

      And remember, these ads were not randomly displayed, but were allegedly targeting people who had been identified as sufficiently gullible to be influenced by them. Very very underhand campaigning. Fascism in full swing.

      THIS is exactly what we can expect in IndyRef2. They dark forces now know they can get away with this stuff. They will say absolutely dreadful stuff about independence and Scottish democracy.

      Democracy is their enemy.

    147. Breeks says:

      Last word on my Indy plan above is great pity that Unionism here in Scotland is represented by gobshites and shills like Ruth Davidson and the other shower of Tory balloons. Labour barely warrants a mention.

      Imagine if the Tories had a true elder statesman in Scotland who had the gravitas and bearing to contemplate the unthinkable and give due thought to a radicle solution.

      I would accept there is 0% chance of the Tory BritNats parting company with Scotland amicably, but before very long, Scotland’s Sovereign emancipation could be inevitable, Scotland’s Independence could be inevitable, Scotland staying in Europe could be highly probable… Many other pillars of Unionism could prove to be just as unstable.

      The Tories are headed for a worst case scenario at full ramming speed. Just before impact, they might agree to anything, even the unthinkable.

    148. Smallaxe says:

      If you have seen an old guy at rallies over the past couple of years and put a pound in a bottle to help set up a tandem Scottish currency there is going to be some mega news coming out this Saturday at the AUOB rally in Inverness. (link to Facebook);

    149. Ken500 says:

      That is what they always do. The Westminster unionists in collusion. They make the biggest possible mess. A complete shambles. Then the next lot come in and do the same. They ripe off the public purse in every possible way. They do not care. Then have an election. Labour could have taken the Tories down. They have been colluding with them in every possible way. Voting with them or abstaining. The LibDem are pathetic. Imagine not turning up to vote. It is just unbelievable,

      Thank goodness Scotland now has an alternative to call them out. The SNP Gov. The State Scotland would be in without them does not bear considering. How much better off Scotland would be running it’s own affairs?

      The Westminster unionists have damaged the Oil & Gas sector. Too high taxes when the price had fallen. The farming sector taking £Millions in CAP payments intended for Scotland and giving them to wealthier farmers in the south. Mad Cow came from Alabama and cost £Billions over ten years. Taxpayers money used to bail them out.

      Fishing mismanaged for years. Throwing dead fish back for years. Costing £Millions/Billions. Instead of using bigger nets like Norway. Improving terms and conditions. The Oil revenues illegally and secretly taken and spent in London S/E. Causing further congestion damaging the economy Depopulating Scotland. People had to migrate to get a job. Losing Scotland £Billions and thousands of jobs. There could have been full employment. Even recently. Lost jobs 120,000. (Westminster policies). Unemployment 120,000.

    150. Big Jock says:

      The SNP should not go near another Brexit referendum with a very large barge pole.

      A couple of reasons for this: Firstly it creates a precedent that all future referendums can be challenged. It also means that if Scotland did vote yes and some crazy Yoons didn’t like the final deal, then they could also request a second ratification referendum. Consequences!!!

      More importantly ,Scotland already voted yes to remain the EU. No ifs no buts absolutely nailed on remain. Are we to do as Scotland always does and wait for England to change it’s mind, to our way of thinking. No those days are over friends!

      Thirdly the SNP have a mandate for a referendum on independence , in the exact circumstances we now find ourselves in. We don’t need another vote on the type of Brexit. Lets not lose sight that we voted for full current EU membership.

      Let the English leave Europe, it’s fundamentally what they have always wanted. Let Scotland respect what the people voted for.

      As an aside current polling is 73% remain in Scotland so it’s not open to debate.

    151. ahundredthidiot says:

      Robert Peffers @9:22

      regarding Bills ‘we’

      I think I know what he means. The team ‘we’ as in the group of servicemen. I would suggest Bill had it easy if he is talking about the Navy (although in fairness that could refer to booty) the Army were far more thorough in their indoctrination.

      Disgraceful when I think back.

    152. Smallaxe says:

      Scot Finlayson says:
      27 July, 2018 at 9:52 am
      “Fake Downing Street ‘protesters’ could mark a sinister new trend for the UK;”

      Quite right, Scot. There is nothing new about this practice, I’ve seen them several times at different venues over the past 50yrs.

    153. mike cassidy says:

      Can’t get too worked up over the Vote Leave ads.

      Social media is just another means of targeting potential voters.

      I just hope the SNP have appropriately savvy people ready to do the same.

    154. Chick McGregor says:

      Maybe it is harder to hide cream off scams in a smaller organisation?

      Maybe smaller is better all round.

    155. Chick McGregor says:

      OT Munguin and WGD both on fire just now.

    156. Ken500 says:

      Overall the population of Europe is on a downward trend. (fluctuates). Less children born.

      Pop of Spain 47 Million has stagnated

      Pop of France 67Million increased slightly (fluctuates)

      Pop of Germany 83Million has increased slightly. (fluctuates)

      The US/UK (France) have bombed the Middle East to bits for years. Increasing migration into Europe. US/UK population has increased because they have bombed the Middle East to bits and have been borrowing/printing more money getting into more debt. Costing people more money and lowering living standards. Sanctioning and starving people. Giving the wealthier tax breaks. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion.

      A total shambles.

    157. Smallaxe says:

      Chick McGregor, Your links, Chick.


      For those who missed it,
      This is where we are now;

    158. Ken500 says:

      German population 2000 – 82Million

      German population 2011 – 80million. It had gone down. (2Million)

      Now 82Million, (fluctuates slightly).

      Eurozone keeps countries stable. Less debt. Most doing well.

    159. Robert Peffers says:

      @ahundredthidiot says: 27 July, 2018 at 10:07 am:

      ” … I think I know what he means. The team ‘we’ as in the group of servicemen.”

      I think I know what he means too, ahundredthidiot.

      Yous see I am of an age when there was still conscription and there were several conflicts and wars involving young conscripted civilians who, otherwise, would never even have dreamt of joining the UK MOD, or as they called it back then, ” the WD – War Department.

      Not only that but I joined the school’s Air Cadet Squadron while at school and then became a civilian instructor with the Cadets when I was too old to remain a cadet.

      I got my unarmed combat and arms training from RAF Regiment instructors who, to a man, were WWII veterans and, believe me, the RAF Regiment, (not actually part of the RAF), are the elite force they never mention – for a very good reason.

      Everyone knows about the SAS, and most know about the SBS but few even realise the RAF Regiment is also an elite military Force, and we trained alongside them. Then I was, “called up”, and sent to Korea, but that’s another story.

    160. galamcennalath says:

      Big Jock says:

      The SNP should not go near another Brexit referendum with a very large barge pole.

      I agree.

      Another reason. To be meaningful in this constitutional crisis we are now in the midst of, any EURef2 should have pre agreed solutions to deal with the situation where Scotland votes Remain (which is a certainty) and much larger England votes Leave (which is a possibility). An automatic and unopposed trigger for a Section 30 for IndyRef2, for instance.

      Any EURef2 which doesn’t deal with the knock on constitutional effects of Brexit should not be agreed to by the SNP. Abstain on the legislation, then campaign to Remain with a promise to call IndyRef2 with or without a Sect 30 if the result is Leave again.

    161. Chick McGregor says:

      Thanks Smallaxe,

      My lazy.

    162. Baldeagle58 says:

      Smallaxe, thank you for your outstanding LINKS work while Nana is on a well deserved break.

      Have a good weekend Sir. 🙂

    163. call me dave says:

      Nobody’s mentioned it yet but I heard a wee snippet on radio shortbread that the rumoured take over at the Scotsman paper is to drop AS from the new team as he is too political a figure! 🙂

    164. Breeks says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      27 July, 2018 at 10:49 am

      I got my unarmed combat and arms training from RAF Regiment instructors who, to a man, were WWII veterans and, believe me, the RAF Regiment, (not actually part of the RAF), are the elite force they never mention – for a very good reason.

      Everyone knows about the SAS, and most know about the SBS but few even realise the RAF Regiment is also an elite military Force, and we trained alongside them….

      When I was a TA Para, there were a large number of hard b*#!*rd regular Airborne-Death-From-Above Para’s who saw no shame whatsoever in joining the RAF Regiment. It was marginally easier on the bones than regular special forces, got some tasty postings relatively near to civilisation rather some desert or jungle in the middle of nowhere, but you’d also find yourself in the company of excellent front line soldiers who were all fit as fk with years of properly intense experience of actual soldiering.

      The RAF Regiment doesn’t just occasionally take the guard dog for a walk along the fence. They are tough and won’t mess about.

    165. gus1940 says:

      Re JP & Scotsman would it not be best if the Norweguan guy sold his shares and then when JP goes down The Swanee he could buy the titles from the liquidator.

    166. Smallaxe says:


      Thank you.

      ‘I commend our hard-working farmers’ – Theresa May gets behind #Farm24

    167. louis.b.argyll says:

      Galamcennalath, .. ‘call indyref if? Etc.

      I don’t think we should give them ager out of jail card.
      We have a mandate now, clear as day.
      If Brexit doesn’t happen we (cards on the table) still have the material change of the attempted power-grab and the snub when we wanted to be partners in negociations.

    168. Petra says:

      ‘Scottish Labour councillors back Ruth Davidson over their own leaders.’


      I see that you got back to me last night Thepnr (11:35pm). I was caught up with more mundane activities, lol, so apologies for the delay in responding.

      Like you I visit Wings because I’m looking for facts, facts that I usually save on my computer and then use off-line to great effect … hopefully! When I’m introducing people to Wings I usually tell them to check Stu’s latest article plus links, such as Nana’s / Smallaxe, especially if they are short on time. In saying that I often go on to double check that data too. However most of the posts on here relate to people’s experiences, opinions, supposition, such as IndycarRoss, what they hear on the streets and so on. If we had to remove such posts the site would be totally depleted, imo.

      I’m sorry if my comment upset you or irked you in any way at all, but I reckoned it was worth posting if for no other reason than to keep our eye on the situation. I’ve been told by a number of people, say based at Faslane, over the last year or two that more and more Scots are being sent down south (or abroad), as English personnel are being sent here. Yesterday was the first time I’d heard that all Scottish troops are being sent south to either a new base or one that’s being extended? I should have asked for more detail on that one, such as ‘where’.

      You said that, ”So far I know of nothing that suggests all the Scottish troops are being moved out of Scotland since I’ve seen no evidence of that and since the numbers of military based in Scotland remain the same. Then who are these replacements and where are they from?”

      The numbers will no doubt remain the same Thepnr, or even increase in Scotland, but who exactly makes up the numbers? As said already it looks as though the ”replacements” are coming from England.

      If I get anymore information I’ll post it on here and of course only time, backed by facts, will highlight if anything of note is going on at all.

    169. Robert Peffers says:

      Breeks says:
      27 July, 2018 at 11:15 am

      ” … The RAF Regiment doesn’t just occasionally take the guard dog for a walk along the fence. They are tough and won’t mess about.

      You can say that again, Breeks. Their unarmed combat is loosely based upon Judo. I say loosely advisedly. I’ll never forget the description of how to deal with someone attacking you with a knife or weapons other than firearms.

      He demonstrated, (on me as it happens), how to deflect the arm holding the weapon but to retain your grip on the wrist of the attacker.

      Then you pull it sharply while placing your other hand behind the attackers elbow, (all this is standard Judo), but now he gets to the RAF Regiments version.

      Instead of holding him in an armlock – you pull firmly with the hand holding the wrist and push sharply with the hand behind the elbow and break the bastards arm.

      This swift action will result in the attacker, on his face and with you, the defender, holding the attacker’s broken arm by the wrist.

      Now you stamp on the bastards head with your WD issue studded boot and grind the bastard’s face into the ground to a bloody pulp to assure he isn’t getting back up to come at you again.

      As you say, Breeks – these guys just don’t mess about.

    170. Robert Peffers says:

      @call me dave says: 27 July, 2018 at 11:09 am:

      “Nobody’s mentioned it yet but I heard a wee snippet on radio shortbread that the rumoured take over at the Scotsman paper is to drop AS from the new team as he is too political a figure!”

      Nah! The item was on the text service late last night but you may have read it wrongly.

      It said he, Salmond, was being dropped from the board – not dropped from the team attempting the do the take over.

    171. Thepnr says:


      I appreciate the response and I’ll be honest, I enjoy posters personal anecdotes on here. Especially the No to Yes ones from friends or family members.

      It might be possible I guess to find figures of movements of military personnel around the UK and like you if I do come across any further information I’ll post it here.

    172. Petra says:

      Thanks for the links Smalllaxe. This is a defeat for democracy right enough …. another one. Pushed through by the totally ruthless Tory dictatorship.

      Smallaxe: ‘Britain Quietly Passes Vital Brexit Amendment That Could Hurt World’s Poorest.’


      Nicola Sturgeon lead the EUref2 campaign, as suggested previously by Kirsty Hughes? NO WAY. Why on earth should she, her of all people? She’s done her utmost to keep the whole of the UK in the SM and CU and every white paper and suggestion, her every word (and others), has been totally ignored (other than what they knocked for their own white paper).

      Another EU ref and we win, forget about Indyref2 and continue to be ruled by the right wing nutters, under someone like Boris Johnston, or catastrophe Corbyn . We lose … again … so what’s the point? Another kick in our sovereign teeth. Masochistic or what? And as Big Jock (10:02) has pointed out, it also sets the precedence for all future referendums being challenged, such as Indyref2. WE didn’t get a second chance in 2014, even although the Scots were lied to and ‘given’ what became one broken promise after another …. plus ‘EVEL’ on the 19th September to the Smith poisoned chalice. This proposal, if it wasn’t so serious would be laughable … bl**dy hilarious, in fact.


      Another brilliant site:

    173. Smallaxe says:

      Hi Petra,

      Thank you. Here’s another couple of links. 🙂

      Legislating in the dark: The Government’s White Paper on the Withdrawal Agreement Bill;

      What is Special About Customs?;

    174. Macart says:


      The piece isn’t wrong. With no deal in place, (and all of them are bad enough), it will be just that catastrophic.

    175. Smallaxe says:


      Same as it ever was!

    176. Petra says:

      C’mon folks, those that can afford a fiver or two, let’s show our appreciation for someone who absolutely works HIS butt off for US.

      ”Any help you can give would be immensely appreciated. Help me to keep campainging, and help me to show that Scotland is a welcoming place for migrants – at least one special migrant in particular, the man I’m going to marry in October.

      You can donate by clicking the following link and donating on my Gofundme page.

      Alternatively you can donate by clicking on the Paypal “Donate” button on this page, or by logging in to and making a payment to me at weegingerbook [at] yahoo [dot] com

      If you would prefer to donate by some other method, cash, cheque, or bank transfer, please contact me at weegingerbook [at] yahoo [dot] com for details.

      Many thanks for all your support. You’ve no idea how much it means to me.”

    177. Petra says:

      Look out for the blood red moon eclipse tonight (astronomy).

      Blood red moon conjunct Mars (astrology) hitting Theresa May’s natal Uranus at 6 degrees Leo. OUCH! That hurts!

    178. Smallaxe says:


      Legislating in the dark: The Government’s White Paper on the Withdrawal Agreement Bill;

      Sorry about that, I’ve got PTTD (Post Traumatic Treeza Disorder)

    179. Robert Louis says:

      Their is zero need for a second brexit referendum in Scotland. The first result was clear as day, Scots do not want brexit. N.Ireland does not want brexit. Both results was ignored by Westminster, and to this day, are still being ignored. A second referendum on brexit in Scotland, will also be ignored, QED, such a vote would be a proverbial waste of time. It might make sense to run a second referendum in England, since it is the views of England (and only England) which are not ignored.

      The opinions of England’s colonies like Scotland and N.Ireland do not matter whatsoever.

      That is also why the SNP/Scotgov should not touch such a second vote with a bargepole. It is also a crystal clear reason for Scottish independence.

      Meanwhile, Labour still support Theresa May’s hard right wing government and Brexit.

    180. Marie Clark says:

      @ Smallaxe 1.31 My, my, Smallaxe, nae messing aboot noo eh!
      The EU stating the facts loud and clear, ah, but will the buggers in the Maybot’s government listen?

      I’ve never in all the years that I’ve been on this planet seen such a vicious and incompetant government, and they still seem to have not a scooby about how to sort it.

      Mind you, maybe we could reommend Rev Stu solution as posted last week. Indpendent Scotland in the EU, hard border between Scotland and Engerland. Solves the Irish problem in one, and we might Trade with Engerland if they behave themselves.

    181. Smallaxe says:

      Hi Marie,

      I was beginning to think that I’d frightened everyone away.

      Here’s another link to keep you going, for now, have a great weekend, my friend.

      Why Westminster’s Brexit turmoil makes a 2019 Scottish Independence referendum likely;

    182. galamcennalath says:

      Smallaxe says

      Fix Irish border or face hard Brexit, EU lawmakers warn May

      Thanks for highlighting that breaking news.

      No surprise. IMO the EU have been patient more than long enough with that bunch of chancers and spivs in London.

      I think the behaviour which may have prompted the robust response might be Raab’s suggestion that the already agreed divorce bill might now be considered payable only if an outline trade deal is agreed.

      It is starting to look like TMay et al are attempting to go back to the beginning looking for a whole new set of withdrawal treaty elements! You’d think absolutely no progress has been made. Plus, getting some cherry picking thrown in, again.

      If TMay sticks with the backstop already agreed for Ireland, then they are close to getting their withdrawal treaty with transition period. That necessitates throwing the DUP under the big red Brexit bus. She need to face up to that!

    183. Smallaxe says:

      galamcennalath says:

      “Smallaxe says
      Fix Irish border or face hard Brexit, EU lawmakers warn May
      Thanks for highlighting that breaking news.”

      You’re welcome, my friend.

    184. Petra says:

      @ Smallaxe says at 2:22 pm …. ”Hi Marie, I was beginning to think that I’d frightened everyone away.?

      Two of my posts haven’t appeared. Maybe there’s some kind of problem?!

    185. Petra says:

      @ Smallaxe says at 2:22 pm …. ”Hi Marie, I was beginning to think that I’d frightened everyone away.?

      Two of my posts haven’t appeared. Maybe there’s some kind of problem?!

    186. Smallaxe says:


      There seemed to be a break of some kind between 1:31 pm and 2:15 pm if you posted at that time possibly that had something to do with it.

    187. Socrates MacSporran says:

      How I wish the EU would simply turn round and tell Westminster: “Look, yu;ve wsted enough of our time; sort the Irish border, accept the four freedoms – these are our terms, take them or leave – you have until 30 September, 2018 to agree – then we put no dea to our individual legislatures.

      Ever since you wanted in, you have wanted special status, special deals, you wanted to be a member of the club, but with special rules for you. Now you want to leave with special rules.

      The answer is NO – now don’t let the door hit your erse on the way out. Bye.

      There is an article in the Guardian today, basically saying: “It’s all the EU’s fault.” You cannot negotiate, far-less argue with that level of stupidity.

      Let them go, then, we can call Indyref2 and be away before the 31st of March, and, hopefully able to retain EU membership.

    188. Proud Cybernat says:

      BREAKING from Pravda Quay
      with Union Jackie Kim Ono

    189. galamcennalath says:

      The People’s Vote, a vote on the final deal, I just can’t see what they want, nor how it’s possible.

      If they want to get a Remain majority on a rerun and call the whole thing off, then that makes sense. However, that’s not quite what they campaign for!

      ” Sign the Petition to demand a People’s Vote on the final Brexit deal “

      What ‘final’ deal? The terms of the Withdrawal Treaty? That won’t say anything we don’t already know. Money gets paid, EU/UK citizens rights are protected, there is a backstop to prevent a border in Ireland. That gets agreed, a transit period is given after the UK leaves.

      What happens then is what leads to the ‘final’ outcome and a trade deal! That could be years away.

      Attached to the Withdrawal Treaty will be a non binding outline of that that trade deal might be. That sounds so uncertain, how can the public meaningfully vote for or against it?

      Other than Remain plot to get a Remain outcome with a rerun, I can’t see what this People’s Vote stuff is about.

    190. Petra says:

      That was around the time I posted them Smallaxe. Interesting (for me) as one of them explained that the blood moon eclipse tonight, conjunct Mars, is hitting on Treeza May’s natal Ur*nus at 6 Leo. Kicking her hard on the erse, in other words.

      “Fix Irish border or face hard Brexit.” At the end of the day what this means is that a bunch of sectarian bigots in Northern Ireland, led by Arlene Foster, are ruling the roost here. What a million at most DUP supporters destroying the lives of around 60 million people? For that reason alone the Scots have to get out of this fiasco, ASAP.

    191. Ken500 says:

      NI population. 1.8Million

      DUP votes 225,500.


    192. Ken500 says:


      DUP 293,000

      36% of vote.

    193. manandboy says:

      Ken500 says:
      27 July, 2018 at 4:43 pm
      NI population. 1.8Million

      DUP votes 225,500.


      You’ll want another go at that sum, Ken.

    194. galamcennalath says:

      Smallaxe @ 1:31
      Me @ 3:06

      That BIG news release about the EU telling TMay to get on with finding a backstop for Ireland and stop faffing around …. the media don’t seem to be picking it up. Clearly doesn’t fit in with the off piste Tory agenda for Brexit negotiations.

    195. HandandShrimp says:

      Electorate in NI is 1.243m if that helps and DUP got 292k or 36% of the votes cast but turnout was just 65.4%

      23.5% of the actual electorate

    196. Petra says:

      292,000 DUP supporters, eh? And Theresa May called for a “one Nation” government working for all not just the “privileged few.” That’s worked out well hasn’t it, especially for the privileged bigots in Northern Ireland.

    197. Donald Bruce says:

      Looks like the Tories are setting the NHS ready for privatisation. Will the Scottish NHS. Have to follow in line with the English NHS.

    198. manandboy says:

      As others have commented, the EU’s Brexit Steering Group have been very clear about the UK’s position and it should be headline news in the MSM here. But isn’t.
      A reminder that Brexit for the Tories is a propaganda exercise in which the UK has a very big advantage in controlling most of the UK’s media, and is therefore able to decide what the majority of the UK electorate will think about Brexit.

      By suppressing this latest statement from the BSG, May’s government continues to tell the UK population very little, in keeping with their overall strategy since June 23 2016. So, on we go, moving forward through a dark tunnel, still without knowing how it will all end.

      Independence for Scotland is a must for us – but a total no no for Westminster. Future generations will be taught about The Propaganda War 2012-2019.

    199. Thepnr says:

      I’m beginning to think that it’ll be pointless posting any links to any articles in the MSM.

      Day by day more lies are printed and no doubt for a reason. Democracy as we understand in the West really is in serious trouble and I doubt even Independence will save Scotland from what is happening right now.

      Unless things change and soon, we aught to be very worried so we must fight back. Talk talk talk talk and keep talking.

      Something is not right with what I’m reading everyday. It stinks to be honest.

    200. Sarah says:

      Just had a quick look at the Commons Committee report on Fake News – Summary and recommendations from page 64. The link is on a Wings tweet from FakeNews…

      It seems very clear on Cambridge Analytica and others – unreliable witnesses, “self-confessed liar” etc etc. Good stuff, I think.

    201. Macart says:


      They can’t backtrack. They’re too invested. Too culpable. They were willing t’boot. What we’re seeing now, they helped create. Some are proud of that and some are in denial, but did it nonetheless.

      To backtrack now would expose that culpability. This is going to run its course. Oh, there’ll be headlines of shock horror ‘how did this all happen?’, but they marketed and sold what they were told. They took the cash and the access, the power that came with it and bragged about their ability to influence opinion.

      Well? They can’t have it both ways. They can’t ask how it all came about and claim their influence over opinion at the same time.

      When people really start suffering and society comes apart under the strain? That’s as much on them as the political class which they took their lead from.

    202. Ken500 says:

      @NI assembly Vote 2nd March 2017. (Weird – no power sharing) @ 4.43pm.

      @ NI General election vote @ 4.49

    203. Ken500 says:

      NI assembly vote 2nd March 2017. DUP lost 10 seats from 38 to 28.

    204. Gary says:

      As I’ve said on here before – my daughter lives in England and, suffering from asthma accesses healthcare on a regular basis.

      I won’t even bother to make the point about how she has to pay for her meds in England, although that IS a point to be made. No, the actual standard of healthcare IS actually lower. It’s harder to get seen, facilities are poorer, there are fewer consultants etc. NB I make no criticism of the nurses and doctors themselves, simply the system under which they operate.

      We genuinely have no idea how lucky we are here, we have had YEARS of improvements to the NHS here, England is still back in the 1980s.

    205. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Not our favourite guy but this is exceptional. If our half asleep people were aware of the wickedness we are involved in we would be independent tomorrow

    206. Thepnr says:


      Whatever happened to principles among the journalistic class?

    207. Clydebuilt says:

      O/t the tweet on the Rev’s Twitter feed from Peter Grant timed at 4hrs ago (4.10pm) “we’ve discovered that the SNP policy we mocked for years actually works so now we want to pretend it was our idea”

      Isn’t showing up on Peter’s Twitter feed

    208. Thepnr says:


      I can’t stand George Galloway, I’ve had him marked as a conman since 1981 when he was in charge of the Labour Party in Dundee as the youngest ever Secreatry of a political party in Scotland.

      It was the Thatcher days and Robb Caledon shipyard in Dundee had been closed, the place I served my apprenticeship. I was lucky and managed to get a job Offshore on the rigs.

      I was wasting my time though on the two weeks off and made up my mind to join the Labour party and maybe help fight Thatcherism so I took myself along to the local Labour party office as someone keen to join the fight.

      George Galloway was the man in charge alongside someone else I don’t know, I filled in the form and handed over my £5 yearly membership fee. Galloway turned to his colleague and said “I told you we’ed get some beer money for dinnertime from somewhere” and they both laughed.

      This is genuinely true and I know he is now teetotal but it put me off there and then, I said “that’s not at all funny”

      “Only joking wee man they told me.

    209. Clydebuilt says:

      Thepnr @5.56 pm

      Good post, although I like to think after Indy, we would be able to do something about Scotland’s press. . . If not we’d have Westminster’s Trojan horse amongst us.

    210. Thepnr says:

      Good call Smallaxe it’s on now 🙂

    211. Smallaxe says:


      I feel the same way about G. Galloway, for too many reasons to mention.

      Btw, I’ll ignore your typo!

    212. Thepnr says:

      Dave McEwan Hill on Argyll Independent radio doing a really good job here. Well done you Dave.

    213. Schrodingers cat says:

      Lunar eclipse starting in 30 mins

    214. Robert Peffers says:

      @Thepnr says: 27 July, 2018 at 7:18 pm:

      ” … I can’t stand George Galloway, I’ve had him marked as a conman since 1981 when he was in charge of the Labour Party in Dundee as the youngest ever Secreatry of a political party in Scotland.£

      As recently as that? I had him down as a con-man long before that, Thepnr.

      Mind you I had been a non-Labour Trade union man for around 30 years by 1981 and a non-Labour Shop steward for a lot of years during that almost 30 years.

    215. Thepnr says:

      @Schrodingers cat

      Don’t think I’ve ever saw you type a capital letter before 🙂

    216. Robert Peffers says:

      Apparently there isn’t anything important going on in Scotland just now. My computer just alerted me there was a new news item on Radio Jockland’s CEEFAX News pages.

      So I went to find out what important to Scotland event had occurred – This is what I found. The headline read:-

      “Five sentenced over £200,000 council fraud.”

      So, wondering which Scottish council had been defrauded I read on –

      “Five men who defrauded a local council of more than, £200,000 through an email scam have been sentenced.

      Melton Borough Council received an email it believed to be genuine making a, “plausible” request to change bank details for a supplier in August 2013.

      The following month the real company contacted the council over unpaid invoices, and the scam was discovered.

      A police spokesman said the investigation was “lengthy and complex”.

      So, what Radio Scotland numptie thought this was news that had some relevance to Scotland?

      Did the BBC Scotland numptie perhaps think that Melton Borough Council was located in Scotland?

      Did the numptie think that Scotland has, “Boroughs”, instead of, “Burghs”. Ye jist canna get guid journalist ony mair.

      Weel no oan the BBC onywey.

    217. Petra says:

      Interesting. Apologies if it has been posted already.

      Andrew Tickell:: ‘UK lawyer’s attempted gazump only highlights devolution truth.’

      ….. ”But like our keen-eyed Gazumper, Lord Keen wants to argue the later UK legislation trumps the earlier efforts of the Scottish Parliament.

      And here’s how he does so. When Theresa May’s law officers referred the Scottish Brexit Bill to the Supreme Court, a Bill’s status is frozen. The final proposals don’t receive royal assent. They aren’t law. The Bill is left thumbing through elderly copies of Vogue in the waiting room, till the Supreme Court decides whether or not it falls within Holyrood’s legislative competence.

      Against that backdrop, with a squint and a little imagination, Lord Keen maintains that because Westminster’s legislation hit the statute book first, Holyrood’s earlier plans should be regarded as a scandalous attempt to “frustrate” the will of the UK’s “sovereign Parliament”. Even though – you know – that will didn’t coalesce into a final form until 92 days after MSPs took the final vote on the Scottish proposals. Baron Keen is clearly dual-qualified in Gallifrey…..”

    218. Schrodingers cat says:

      Damn autocorrect on smart phone. In Netherlands at moment so will miss inverness tomorrow. Say hi to everyoneveryone 4 me

    219. Robert Peffers says:

      @Petra says: 27 July, 2018 at 9:24 pm:

      ” … Baron Keen is clearly dual-qualified in Gallifrey….”

      Aye! Just “Who”, does this Baron Keen gadgie think he is?


    220. Terry says:

      OT – the talk of soft no’s is often misleading. Two couples in my extended family were totally anti independence. After the ref we never discussed it. I concentrated instead on canvassing strangers and street stalls. However after Brexit one couple opened up the conversation that the Vow was a lie. Ahem. A few weeks ago totally unprompted the other said they’d be voting Snp now cos of their policy on refugees. That’s four conversions that I didn’t think would happen.

      Mind you they are middle class. I work in regen areas that were solidly Yes. But they do like Brexit. So Nicola’s strategy of leaving it until we are up to the wire is a good one. (Talk of stockpiling food etc will sink in with them). We need those voters back. Lots of work for RIC who did a great job last time in these areas. And no – it’s not all about the EU. But it is our right, and our responsibility, to decide our own future.

    221. Schrodingers cat says:

      I see a red moon rising

    222. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Terry @ 22:20:

      Lots of work for RIC who did a great job last time in these areas.

      Sorry, but naw they really didn’t. It was just a mixture of wishful thinking and self-serving propaganda. They may have got a bunch of folk in Glasgow to re-register after a long timeout because of the poll tax, but these people largely didn’t turn out on the day as needed. (As the disappointingly-low Glasgow turnout attests very clearly.)

      If they were all that great at getting the proles activated, they might have actually got a more-than-derisory vote when standing as RISC in the subsequent elections.

      We certainly do need to get everyone motivated to turn out and vote to defend our shared interests against a barrage of mendacity carefully crafted to lead the unaware (as happens all too easily, it seems) into the arms of rightist populists, but next time I hope we’re going to have some means way more effective to engage and motivate than a bunch of middle-class amateur radicals.

    223. yesindyref2 says:

      See some posts about foces in Scotland. The MOD did and is doind a lot of movements, like heavy infrantry and tanks to Salisbury which makes sense they have most of Exmoor to play with. Light infantry on the other hand is being largely based in Scotland. I like this because why would Scotlandneed tanks unless we want to invade Saudi Arabia or Crimea or something? Whereas light infrantry is good, and should fillmsot of our needs. With a disproportionatly high ration of light infantry, chances are we’ll be able to persuade most Scots to stay, and kidnap loads of the trained English as well. Oour army – sorted!

      As for nAvy units, based on cost, even the 4 SSBNs (deterrent) is a fair share of warships, equal to at least 4 frigates T23 which would be our fair share, plus all the minesweepers are / were bsed in Scotland. Yes, we have no frigates, nor do we have banana boats. But add the 7 SSNs (Astutes) and that’s more than our fair share. OK, we might prefer to have frigates, but we can’t complain about being hard done by. And the definition of “warship” includes undersea ones – subs. Though I personally would prefer to call them warboats to be more precise.

      Air – we have 3 full squadrons of Typhoons which is probably 10% or more of all UK fighters including Tornados and F35-B. Plus we will get MPAs here – I think it’s 5 out of the UK’s 9.

      So no, we are not ahrd done by, and no, there’s no plot to move all Scots out of Scotland and replace them by English.

      In the words of Ferret “What the feck?”

    224. yesindyref2 says:

      Catching up, wireless hotspot yesterday only gave me local on my laptop however many times I tried. Found today that “Diagnose and repair” actually worked as itg told me, errr, something which I did and voila.

      And yeah, laptop so more typos thannormal. Can;t really thole posting on the iPhone4 it does my eyes inman.

    225. yesindyref2 says:

      The MOD is closing down bases all over the place, including England. The reason is two – first they don’t need so many and it saves on the budget which they need to do. The second is that all or nearly all bases had infrastructure from the stone age and needed a lot of money spent.

      In theory all the forces will have bright shiny fibred bases and a great future. Yes, there’s a lot of criticism, but looking at it from the combo of budget and efficiency, what was planned was correct. Same thing by the way evenfor the navy, the IK can’t afford or need 666 warships any more, or 350,000 fighters and bombers!

      Naturally I kept schtum when Salmond was giving out, but there is a fair reason for keeping all the names that used to exist, it’s history and tradition
      .But it’s not future. Problem is the UK couldn’t afford it, and more to the point for us in iScotland, neither could we. So basically the MOD has been doing us a favour, making all the hard decisions ready for us, while we protest vigorously.

    226. Cactus says:

      Crazy times inda South Side of Glasgow…

      This is good, get drunk, save us.

      Don’t be sick, fuck fuck.

      Big fuckin’ wheel.

      Be that FUCK.

      Good luck.

      Get big!

      Ironically, talkin’ may save Scotland.

    227. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland –

      The full story of RIC’s role in undermining (wittingly or not) the genuine grassroots success of the SSP in the post-Tommy/pre-indyref years will never be written – too many egos may suffer mild-to-serious bruising. And we can’t be having that…

      None of the main players at that time will accept responsibility for hamstringing the socialist movement so many Scots still hanker for, and no-one else is interested enough to even bother trying to explain it all.

      Sad, but true…


    228. Thepnr says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Too many egos and no more heroes.

    229. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 27 July, 2018 at 11:18 pm:

      ” … The MOD is closing down bases all over the place, including England … “

      Sometimes you talk a right load of bollox, yesindyref2 and your perceptions of the MOD are among them.

      There is a fundamental inbuilt perception among Britnats and you exhibit that perception in regard to the armed forces.

      The Britnats have the perception that, for example, the pound sterling belongs only to the English. It comes naturally to the Britnat, when in conversations with indy people, to come away with such things they have quite obviously never given a real conscious thought to. How many times have you heard a Britnat innocently state something along the lines of, “What will Scotland do about a Scottish Currency”?

      They have never really thought about it or they would, correctly, conclude that the Pound Sterling is as much the Kingdom of Scotland’s currency as it is that of England – in fact it is, “The United Kingdom’s currency and the United Kingdom only has two actual kingdom partners”, but in the Britnat mind the pound Sterling is English.

      You want proof? Why then do they claim that the English Taxpayers subsidise Scots with English taxpayer’s money? The Treasury and the Customs & Excise are Union, not, English Ministries. In fact the Scottish per capita GDP is normally higher than that of England, or indeed the UK as a whole, so in fact we Scots contribute more per capita than the English or indeed the rest of the UK.

      The Navy is The Royal Navy, (factually), it thus legally belongs to the Queen of England, (under English law), but in Britnat Eyes the Queen is sovereign over the entire United Kingdom so the Royal Navy belongs to England, (Since the Glorious Revolution).

      Ditto the Royal Air Force. Yet the Royal Air Force only came into being after the union. BTW: the army is, “The soldiers of the Queen”, and to cap all this consider that they just naturally assume that, “Scotland is leaving the United Kingdom”, and it never enters their heads that the United Kingdom is a bipartite union of two kingdoms and when Scotland, “leaves”, the United Kingdom has ended.

      This is because in their minds the United Kingdom is England and Scotland is a part of the United Kingdom – ergo – Scotland is part of England.

      So let’s not beat about the bush – those naval ships that are based in the Kingdom of Scotland are not as you are attempting to imply Scotland’s share of Royal Navy ships & boats they are, in Britnat eyes English ships based in a region of England and upon Scottish independence they will expect them to be returned to her majesty, The Queen of England, as it is her Royal Navy.

      Just as they all just naturally assume that, on 1st May 1707 Westminster continued as the Parliament of England that had agreed to allow some Scots MPs to sit in as observers in the Parliament of England.

      As the Secretary of State, Mundell described it, “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom”.

      Trouble is the Treaty of Union is there to read and it does nothing of the sort. And that is what is currently being argued about in the Westminster Supreme Court. English sovereignty over the legal sovereignty of the people of Scotland that is greed to be protected in article 19 of the Treaty of Union.

    230. Cactus says:

      Fuck the side threads like…

      Scotland is ace like.

      Challenge moi…?

      Sayin’ that…

      That’s me sorted for baked beans like.

      BB’s cans last till 2020.

      We’ll be ‘AYE’ by then.

      T fuck for that…

      What say K1?

      Sco l’eau.


      Our quickening is comin’.

    231. Cactus says:

      Fuck the hatred…

      Love da love.

      Fuck TM.

    232. Dr Jim says:

      What are the English going to use for a currency, more to the point, post Brexit they’ll be on to plums so how many do you get to the £ for that
      They could use jam I hear they’ve got a lot of that, except when the strawberries run out then it’ll have to be our old favourite up here in Scotland

      Roobart, Aah! wae custard, Yum! Whoops! no eggs we ate the last of the chickens

      Damn! It’ll huv tae be looting again

    233. Liz g says:

      Cactus @1.17
      Eww no thanks… TM can go fuck herself…
      We Scots are all about da love… Show them the morra Cactus

    234. Petra says:

      @ Cactus says at 11:59 pm .. ”Crazy times inda South Side of Glasgow…

      This is good, get drunk, save us.

      Don’t be sick, fuck fuck.

      Big fuckin’ wheel.

      Be that FUCK.

      Good luck.

      Get big!

      Ironically, talkin’ may save Scotland.”

      High time that you took a head check Mr. And by the way I don’t give one hoot who you have met (genuine supporters of Independence) where and when. Duping folks, Cactus? What on earth are you doing on here? What do you actually contribute to this site? Nought. In fact less than nought, because you’re a total liability to the Independence cause in my eyes. Driving people away.

      If you are a genuine supporter of independence, which I TRULY doubt, it’s high time that you got your act together. Who cares where you are night after night, how drunk you are and how often you bl**dy well boak? Get real and sort yourself out Mr. If not get lost.

    235. K1 says:

      Right one for casting aspersions on people’s loyalty to the cause and their character just because they use a swear word or two Petra?

      Again please provide links to evidence your assertions. By all means opine away…be aware though your default condescension is, as ever, shinning through your sanctimonious outrage. 😉

    236. Cactus says:

      Haha that’s funny, keep it comin’ Petra, aye have absolutely nothing against you…

      Same as like U, User rock…

      What about you about me like…?

      Do U feel offended by moi?

      It’s 4:55am Petra.

    237. Cactus says:

      Hey Petra, we’re watching you.

      Let’s have yer passion.

      It’s 5am fine Petra.

      Are U awake..?

      Love U x.

    238. Cactus says:

      In recollection, ah guess aye have been quite easy-oasy till now.

      Winger Petra… ye need tae chill yersel the fuck out lady!

      The road is fucking long…

      With love x.

    239. Cactus says:

      Petra is like David Mundell like, persistent.

      Thank you for your, this is my neutral comeback.

      Do U feel wound up?

      Name yer destination?

      To reiterate… Petra, I have nothing against you.

      Why you against me?

      Written perception is what you believes.

    240. Cactus says:

      Morning Scotland, okay SO we missed the moon, cause the rain rained down, aye saw it. Ahm a very fiery Aries Petra, do not you know like..?

      This is a good healthy debate Petra.

      Tis good to disagree Petra.

      One day, we shall… 🙂

      See ye mwah x.

    241. Cactus says:

      Fuck it, let’s keep the rage going user ‘Petra’.

      Do you LOVE Scotland…?

      Aye do.

      Gonna change device to dedicate some songs to you Petra.

      You asked for it, one is not your enemy.

      We are one and the same.

      To learn like x…

    242. Cactus says:

      Fucking sake…

      What time is the 1st train to Inverness frae Glasgow inda morning like?

      Need tae escape this madness!

      Are you for real Petra?

      Still love ye xx.

    243. Cactus says:

      Hey Petra, ahm back on a different device like:

      Without prejudice and love.

      This one is all for you.

      I MEAN WELL.

      You do not ‘need’ to dislike me Petra, although you are welcome to do SO…

      Dr Jim is my favourite Winger, fuckin’ Doctor Jim knows how to mix the lime and the coconut… Dr Jim, you’re cool. 😉

      And Yes WE DO GO FUCKING WAY BACK one and many.

      Lime anda Coconut lady.

      Almost 6am.

      Tis about time aye headed to Queen St Station, bound for our Inverness.

      Laters lovelies xxx.

    244. Cactus says:

      Dr Jim is way cool.

      Let that be known on the main thread.

      Fucking legend dude!

      Anybuddy offended, like?

      Take it.

      There May Be Adequate Food…

    245. Cactus says:

      Ahm oan a train, an ah can’t complain…

      Help me Smallaxe.


    246. Hamish100 says:

      Cactus 10 texts in a row with nothing to say of use. Petra is right. Can only assume your on a wee trolling bender. See you in Inverness.

    247. Cactus says:

      Mwah love you too Hamish100 xxx

      Dinnae haud back Hamish100.

      Hey Hamish100, see ye in Inverness gorgeous, mwah.

      Let’s make babies dude hehe haha.

      I Love Hamish.

    248. Hamish100 says:

      Doctors are available but i suspect you wont be there.

    249. Cactus says:

      ps nice to see you’re counting them up Hamish100 babes.

      To put the lime in the coconut tells everything.

      Mwah honey x.

    250. Cactus says:

      An additional reminder for Petra and our most recent Hamish100:

      Still love yee’s both… even though yer both mentalists.

      With regards.

      Cairnstoon please… save us Chris.

    251. Cactus says:

      How did your Glasgow kebab go tonight like:

      We’re hot.


      Assemble Inverness…

      Dedication goes out to ra two finest Wingers.

      You knows who you arse.

      Hot for teacher like.

    252. Cactus says:

      Saturday Cairnstoon is alive and very well…

      Ahm goin’ to sleepy.

      Thank you Petra and thank you Hamish100… it has been an illuminating morning.

      Still love yee’s both… yer still mental like.

    253. Hamish100 says:

      Thank goodness.

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