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Wings Over Scotland

Nine More Years A Slave

Posted on September 18, 2023 by

To be honest it barely seems worth marking the ninth anniversary of the indyref. The day our nation – albeit narrowly – bottled out of becoming a real one again is nothing to be celebrated. The supposed party of independence has run away from the fight, concerned only with feathering its own nest, and its era of power looks to be drawing to a bitter and deserved close.

But there remains one grave and glaring grievance.

And no matter what anyone says, it’ll dog democracy and condemn Scottish politics to eternal stagnation until it’s addressed.

You can find opinion polls in support of almost any argument. Depending on what question you ask and when and how, Scottish voters both do and don’t want another independence referendum, and the timescale for when they do and don’t want it varies from 12 months to 30 years.

But one question, for years and years, has produced remarkably clear and consistent results, across every kind of framing and phrasing, with only a single outlier. (We’re sure there have been more polls on it than the eight above, but since no two of them have used the same question they’re very hard to track down.) And that’s the matter of which Parliament the decision should rest with.

The data for the graph above are here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here. With the exception of a single statistical tie they show a margin of 20 or so points for the view that – whether people want independence or a referendum or neither – the matter should be up to the SCOTTISH Parliament in Edinburgh to decide, not the UK Parliament in London.

That it’s even as close as that is peculiar. If the matter of Scotland leaving or staying in the UK isn’t up to Scotland and Scotland alone, then self-evidently Scotland is a prisoner, and one without the right to parole. But the point is that it ISN’T close.

It’s simply impossible to imagine the EU having refused the UK the right to hold a referendum on Brexit. Denying Scotland’s elected Parliament the autonomy to ask its people the question makes a mockery of the UN Charter on self-determination.

There really is no “debate” to be even had on the matter. However many polls say Scottish voters don’t want another referendum this year or next year or whenever, they still want the RIGHT to one if and when they choose.

To block that right is proof that the Union does not believe in itself. If you think your case is sound, you have no fear of a challenge. But the UK is terrified and insists on holding onto Scotland and Northern Ireland by force. (Wales is still a voluntary servant, but its consent is immaterial anyway.)

Its intransigence has paid off at least in the short term, creating time in which Nicola Sturgeon – whether by incompetence or design – destroyed the SNP as any sort of vehicle for independence. But even as support for the party crumbles, half the country still wants its nationhood restored.

This is a time of stalemate, not resolution. Jim Sillars only got one thing wrong.

Because nothing is permanent. The battle has been going on for 316 years, and it will not end until Scotland’s fate is in Scotland’s hands, and Scotland’s alone.

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0 to “Nine More Years A Slave”

  1. sarah says:

    It would be of a small amount of interest to know how many, if any, SNP MSPs and MPs even noticed the date today.

    Let alone swore that before the next 18th September they would have sweated blood to get the party back on track to regaining our country as a proper country.

  2. Neil Mackenzie says:

    The second reading of Neale Hanvey’s ‘Scotland (Self-Determination) Bill’ to amend the Scotland Act 1998 to transfer to the power to legislate for a Scottish independence referendum to the Scottish Parliamen is supposed to be due in nine weeks (November 24).

    No one has spoken against it, yet.

  3. Andrew F says:

    I saw on RT yesterday that Humza has said …. I forget now.

    Something about winning a majority of seats at some future election as being the “mandate” for asking London for independence.

    But apparently he can’t just do that without taking it to the conference first.

    Or, couldn’t he just ask them right now for independence?

    That would save a lot of time and effort.

    H: Can we have independence?

    UK: NO.

    H: OK, see you next time.

  4. Astonished says:

    Spot on.

    I am sick of being a second-class citizen in my own country.

    The nuSNP are finished. They destroyed, deliberately destroyed, any trust we had in them.

    The problem is not everyone will admit that to themselves. They will soon have to.

    The interesting question is what will come next ? Will enough folk join ‘Scotland United’ ?

    Or will Sturgeon’s nuSNP destroy yet another chance at independence ?

  5. Captain Yossarian says:

    The Scottish Parliament has been a massive let-down for everyone. Dishonesty and lack of accountability hang about the place like a smell and now the Police are investigating the ex First Minister. If Holyrood had been effective, with an trusted leader in charge, independence would be inevitable as Scotland has the resources and ergo the potential wealth to do it.

  6. Republicofscotland says:

    Yes today is one tinged with sadness over the loss of the 2014 indyref, and nine years later on the vehicle to that indyref, the SNP has stabbed us in the front never mind the back, who would have thought it.

    Today the puppet FM Humza Yousaf flies out to New York to a climate change meeting when Scotland is in turmoil, but mitigation to a point, could come from ridding ourselves of this prison of a union, but the current SNP and its puppet FM are not interested in that.

    I’m heartened that Scots want our own parliament to decide when we should leave this union or stay, instead of a foreign country’s parliament deciding when we can and can’t decide our own fate.

    We’ve seen nine years wasted, as the SNP under Sturgeon then Yousaf, lied to us, deceived us, and dangled the indyref carrot in front of us and then they done nothing to follow through on their empty promises.

    We need either the SNP to be recaptured by those MPs/MSPs that actually wants Scottish independence, (and that doesn’t look likely) or we need to remove the SNP which has become a serious stumbling block to leaving this union ( the most likely course of action). Alba appears to be the front runner on attempting to obtain Scottish independence, and so we need to vote for the Alba party at every election that they stand candidates for, a vote for any other major party at Holyrood is a vote for the status quo or worse.

    Lets not have another nine years pass us by waiting on the SNP to deliver independence.

  7. Breastplate says:

    The cognitive dissonance tolerated by a huge amount Unionists and a lesser amount of Nationalists is mind boggling.

    Again, we’re contemplating Schrödinger’s Scotland.
    Scotland is a country.
    Scotland is not a country.
    Scotland is both a country and not a country at the same time.

    In reality Scotland can’t be both.

    If Scotland is a country, we do not need to ask other countries about decisions we make, we certainly don’t need to ask if we can measure the Will of the People in a democratic fashion.
    We could and should behave like a normal country.

    If Scotland is not a country anymore, when did this happen? When did the people of Scotland become aware of this? Does this mean that Scotland can’t become a country once again?

    If Scotland isn’t a country, what is it? What rights do they have? Or more to the point, what rights do they not have?

  8. David Hannah says:

    The Dream shall never die. Hope over Fear. It’s coming yet for a’ that!

    We’ll win our Independence. We’re going to win it. They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of men who refuse to be broken.

    We die for the saltire and our land! Alba Gu snooker loopy!

  9. Ian McCubbin says:

    Thank goodness you say and clarify this issue Stu.
    I have been saying since the failed 2014 referendum that it’s Scotlands choice and that alone, by its parliament setting out the route.
    I also said that UN charter on self determination says this.
    Allen Buchanans book on Self determination strongly reinforces this view.
    I have been argued with told not possible by both unionists and so called independistas alike.

  10. Antoine Bisset says:

    Republicofscotland says:

    “…so we need to vote for the Alba party at every election that they stand candidates for…”

    That would seem to be the democratic way. However, that turns the clock back to the late 19th century. It is starting over. Another long arduous process. It will take decades to get to where the SNP were in 2014. We will be dead. It is likely our children will be dead.
    We have seen political parties rise in Europe quite swiftly. Radical parties like the Greens in Germany and National Rally in France. They, however, are not proposing to separate any part of their country from the current whole.
    The only thing that remains constant for us throughout the last century has been the elephant in the room. Westminster.
    The elephantshows no sign of moving one inch, never mind departing forever.

  11. robertkknight says:

    George Robertson in 1995 said “devolution will kill nationalism stone dead”.

    He was wrong.

    What he should’ve said was “an incompetent, corrupt and compromised SNP administration will kill nationalism stone dead”.

    Weird how things turn out…

  12. Liz says:

    I was at Hope over Fear on Saturday, because I said I’d help out with a stall, otherwise I probably wouldn’t have gone.
    It was a low turn out which was a shame as there was great entertainment and very good speakers.

    I don’t think people want to be reminded.

    Also as you said, rumour mill has it, Blackford or some other sponger might end up in HoL.
    Sheppard was laying some ground work, people say Why aren’t SNP in the HoL, eh, Sheppherd, good wee parliamentarian, no they’re not.

    We’re trapped with a useless bunch of self serving wanks.
    How we escape, I don’t know

  13. sarah says:

    @ Liz: “How we escape, I don’t know.”

    We just try every possible route. I expect you’ve signed already. Perhaps you could check some other Yessers you know and get them signed too – but get a manuscript signature, name and address to hand in to your regional Salvo hub as the online site is still liable to interference.

  14. Karen says:

    Never mind, one month tomoz we get our referendum, no ifs no buts.

    If Scotland is not a country, then neither is Engerland.

    Time to assert our Scots Law and Scots Education (i.e. History).

  15. Ruby says:

    It’s a tricky question because the so called Scottish Parliament is controlled by ‘The Colonial Masters Office in Westminster.’

    There are a lot of things people think should happen but as Stu writes in the headline we are slaves & we are going to be slaves for nine more years.

    Better all just start taking the drugs & drinking the minimum priced alcohol while keeping your fingers crossed that in nine years time detoxing will be available on the NHS along with padded cells for safe consumption.

    Anyone wonder why drug addiction & alcoholism is such a problem in Scotland, among the Aborigines & the Native American?

    Cheers ma dears. I’m liking the old gin & tonic at the moment.
    I could well be on something much cheaper & stronger before ‘liberation from slavery & forced labour’

    PS Important message from me on earlier thread for all
    ‘Agnostic white, white, white straight pizza eaters’
    Don’t miss it.

  16. Anton Decadent says:

    Did you choose the colours of that graph to rub it in?

  17. Ted says:

    ” – the matter should be up to the SCOTTISH Parliament in Edinburgh to decide, not the UK Parliament in London”. But the Scottish Parliament was set up as a subsiduary of the Parliament of the UK. Scotland as part of the UK has a devolved administration.

    “It’s simply impossible to imagine the EU having refused the UK the right to have a referendum on Brexit” You bet it is because the EU trade bloc has no constitutional right to forbid a sovereign nation, internationally recognised, the right to have a referendum within its own internationally recognised borders.

    Scottish independence equates to secession. A better example than the EU forbidding the “secession” of the UK from the EU trade bloc, would be to imagine the USA allowing the “secession” of Texas. See how that went when it was tried by the Confederacy.

    Nations can get pretty touchy when their territorial integrity is threatened.

  18. Dear Rev. Stuart,

    I’ve always enjoyed your mathematical analysis but I regret you have slipped up with regard to the 2014 Referendum when you write:

    “The day our nation – albeit narrowly – bottled out of becoming a real one again … ”

    Sadly, it was not a “narrow” defeat but a large one as follows:

    YES: 44.7% NO: 55.3%

    Majority for NO: 10.7%

    That was a pretty heavy defeat in my opinion. Whether the late appearance of the “VOW” or our Leader’s lack of “Plan B” for our Scots currency is immaterial, as it was a defeat.

    Now the NewSNP/Green Government’s incompetence is making it impossible to achieve a degree of faith in our own abilities.

    Holyrood is doubly useless!

  19. Dan says:

    I occasionally check to see how this is progressing. (slowly)

    Referendums (Supermajority) Bill

    A Bill to require a supermajority of votes in favour of a proposal for constitutional change on which a referendum is being held in order for it to be decided in the affirmative.

  20. Debatable Lands says:

    So, you get a majority of seats with a number of votes that isn’t anywhere near 50% of the vote. With polling on independence jammed at 47% (or probably less by the time undecideds are factored in), you force either UDI or a referendum on a population where it is far from the ‘settled will’ of the people.

    Two seemingly overlapping poll questions can have conflicting results. Yes, a majority of people want Scotland to be the one to decide. No, Scotland doesn’t seem to want the question asked now and actually a majority still wouldn’t vote for it if offered the choice.

    For all the moaning about polls, they are what we have got to judge the public mood and desire. The independence movement would be better served by winding its neck in, stop trying to edge a result on criteria nobody in the international community short of Putin and Trump would think was legitimate.

    You want to win the result first and the argument second. The world doesn’t work like that.

  21. Breeks says:

    Fk me, It’s like Groundhog Day.

    Which Parliament should decide whether there’s another Scottish Independence Referendum?

    The British Westminster Parliament or the British Holyrood Parliament? Oh, err, hmmm, let me think… Is it multiple choice? Why don’t we let the French Parliament decide? Or Ireland! Aye, they like us. Have the Irish Parliament decide.

    Or, now here’s a radical thought, why not reconvene an Auld Scotland style Convention of the Estates, use that assembly of actual Scots to formally impeach the Vichy Holyrood Assembly together with it’s wholly unconstitutional Scotland Act Instruction Booklet, and then, we formally denounce the Treaty of Union as breached and at an end, following the unlawful subjugation of Scotland’s democratic will and sovereign rejection of Brexit?

    We don’t ask the UN for their permission or approval, we tell them that it’s done, then hold a Scotland only, Ratification Plebiscite as part of the process of electing our first Independent Government proper.

    Which Parliament? Who the fk cares? They’re both dud, toxic dysfunctional illusions. Neither of them anything greater than rancid British corruption factories.

    They both mean the same colonial sandbox for Scotland; freedom to play at politics, but never allowed to decide anything meaningful. Every road’s a dead end for Scotland. Every narrative a sleekit indoctrination, sugar coated by the festering BBC wormtongue’s monopoly.

    Forever impotent, forever a prisoner in cage with no door. Scotland, the stuttering Billy Bibbit of The Global Community, waiting for it’s Randall McMurphy to show up and hold our hand so we can be brave

    If we want Independence for Scotland, we need to change the whole paradigm surrounding the mechanism whereby Scotland is kept neutered and trapped in this farcical “Union”, and there is only SALVO making those kind of noises.

    Forget the politicians. Bar a select few, they’re a useless shower of fucks if ever there was one. The tame and tepid Faculty of Advocates isn’t much better.

    Pardon the language, but I mean it. Enough of this shite.

    Since 2014 we’ve all sat on our arses while another decade of Scotland’s life force was drained from our veins and plundered right in front of us. How the fk do we look our kids and grandkids straight in the eye?

    Come on SALVO. Just do it.

    Bring the curtain down on this blackest of pantomimes.

  22. Karl says:

    Bill Walker……..and your point is?

  23. akenaton says:

    I’m sorry to break it to you, but the there are still a large portion of Scots in denial over the Sturgeon regime.
    Perhaps it is just because they hate to be proved wrong over the “progressive” legislation which was fortunately aborted by the Tories, or maybe colour blindness from being fazed by the bright blue saltires and the dazzling yellow banners, but whatever, they are still there and as blind and unthinking as the Auld Man of Hoy.
    They are still dangerous if allowed out on their own or in bunches, determined to see the second cumming of wee Nick.

    We don’t need another Party, most people are sickened by Scottish Politics, we need a national movement dedicated to the idea of independence, explaining to the people the gains and the losses involved and how an independent Scotland is to survive into the future……big issues and big stakes, but looking around at the the deterioration of Europe, what choices do we have? How in hells name can any sensible person believe it is in our interests to re-join the EEC as it continues to stumble, the latest bugbear being illegal immigration from north Africa in their tens of millions.
    Don’t think the present world situation will pass, it will get worse as the East continues to apply the pressure, the power lies in China and the eastern block who have been grooming Africa and India for decades and as the US becomes more isolationist, in Europe it will be “Every man for themselves”.

  24. Alf Baird says:

    Good to see the rev shifting ever closer to the realisation of our colonial ‘condition’ as reflected in the behaviour of our ‘procurer’, which as we see becomes more muscular ‘whenever colonialism is imperiled’. And here we return to the reality of the situation, in which, as Frantz Fanon wrote:

    “Colonial status is simply the organized reduction to slavery of a whole people”

    Decolonization, according to the UN, has always been the firm ground on which the right to self-determination of a people was applied.

  25. Ruby says:

    Dear William G Walker
    In your opinion is 55% a great win.

    You wouldn’t get an A for that pass.

    Sure you would pass but there would be no gold star.
    It’s a C and a third class degree.

    With 55% you just scrape through be the skin of your teeth.

    Better Together claimed it to be huge win as if it were 90%.

    45% is nothing these people can be ignored for at least a generation or two and even then it just won’t be the time.

  26. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “So, you get a majority of seats with a number of votes that isn’t anywhere near 50% of the vote. With polling on independence jammed at 47% (or probably less by the time undecideds are factored in), you force either UDI or a referendum on a population where it is far from the ‘settled will’ of the people.”

    This is very muddled. If you get 50%+1 of votes, you represent the majority of the population. Britain left the EU on 51% and some change.

    If Holyrood has the power to decide on referendums, you have a referendum and the majority of votes wins.

    At no point do you become independent on a minority.

  27. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Sadly, it was not a “narrow” defeat but a large one as follows:

    YES: 44.7% NO: 55.3%

    Majority for NO: 10.7%”

    11-9 is a close result in any sport you care to name. As is any vote in which only 1/16th of people need to change their minds to reverse the result.

  28. Geoff Bush says:

    Tomorrow, the 9th anniversary of that awful “day after” at 11am, at Holyrood and at St Andrews House in Edinburgh, a group of people will present the Stirling Directive to the Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament. The Stirling Directive instructs or directs the government on behalf of the Scottish people to carry out the mandate they have been given. They will be instructed to either 1. announce an independence referendum wholly made and managed in Scotland, or 2. take immediate steps for a plebiscitary election on independence. The government will have until mid December 2023 to comply. Please feel free to join the Stirling Directive team at Holyrood tomorrow. This is the start of something bigger than party politics.

  29. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “A better example than the EU forbidding the “secession” of the UK from the EU trade bloc, would be to imagine the USA allowing the “secession” of Texas. See how that went when it was tried by the Confederacy.”

    If Texas voted for it I very much doubt the US would be able to stop it, and I’d be surprised if they even tried. I’m all but certain Texas wouldn’t need their permission to have a vote on it.

  30. twathater says:

    How long has Alex Salmond been pushing the indy unity message and how long is he and other indy bloggers and supporters going to keep pushing that pea up Ben Nevis with their noses

    FFS the Scottish Nonce Party are NOT just ignoring him and the others they are deliberately and PUBLICLY treating them and us with UTTER CONTEMPT , that the yooseless moron who has spectacularly failed in every position he has held sees fit to spout unadulterated lies and pish sprinkled with unicorn promises that he has NO INTENTION of even attempting to achieve shows that HE IS the sturgeon continuity candidate

    WHY would a supposed super tactician continue to offer the hand of friendship or even just guidance to a cadre of liars and tractors , FFS these proven lying scumbags tried to get Salmond jailed , a sentence that would have been life threatening or even FATAL, WHY would you even entertain breaking bread with them , if it were me I would move heaven and earth to DESTROY every last one of them and their fellow liars and conspirators , I would stand for election in Rutherglen then when elected to the HOC I would EXPOSE EVERYTHING and everyone to the WORLD MEDIA and let them try to cover it up

  31. A Scot Abroad says:

    The ninth anniversary of Scotland’s good people dodging a bullet. Indy in 2014 made no economic sense then, and until there are proper and credible plans for a sustainable economy, it won’t make any sense into the future.

  32. Mia says:

    “the so called Scottish Parliament is controlled by ‘The Colonial Masters Office in Westminster.’”

    And that is only possible because the dishonest and undemocratic version of the SNP created by Sturgeon, and now maintained by Yousaf, have gladly handed their masters control of Holyrood, Scotland’s assets and our democratic rights.

    This was rather convenient strategy for the leadership, because, in that way,they could continue to stomp all over our democratic rights and right to self-determination for nine years. Then, like the self-serving cowards and hypocrites they are, hide behind Westminster robes pretending it was somebody else to blame, instead of themselves for their deliberate inaction and contempt for democracy.

    Until the time the spineless amoebas sitting in Holyrood and the self-serving gravy train riders occupying Scotland’s seats in Westminster start acting on behalf of the Scottish people rather than their bank accounts; until they ditch the Scotland Act and start acting as Scotland’s representatives rather than crown’s puppets, nothing will change. This means the political route is a dead end.

    The SNP window dresser will change; the colour selected for the carrots will be of a different shade of orange; the meaningless soundbites routinely used to deflect will be shorter or longer, the manual of grievances will be tweaked to not look repetitive, and new editions of their catalog of fabricated excuses will be released, but everything will remain the same: the SNP will not move forward an inch towards independence.

    The SNP has been found out. Since Sturgeon took over it is nothing but a copycat of Labour whose main priorities are to fool yes voters into keeping their the gravy train running and helping the British state demolish that anti-union majority in Westminster, so Scotland’s assets can continue to be pillaged or given away against the will of its people.

    The sooner each and every single one of them SNP deceivers are out of our seats, the sooner we can move forward towards independence.

    Out with the cheats!

  33. Dan says:

    Pretty sure this isn’t entirely down to me having a salad of homegrown veg for my tea and therefore not using a cooker.
    Scotland currently using about 2.8GW of leccy. We’re managing to generate enough for oorselves and still exporting 3.5GW to England.

  34. twathater says:

    The PROUD Scot, buuuttt,just fuck off

  35. Ruby says:

    A Scot Abroad says:
    18 September, 2023 at 6:04 pm

    The ninth anniversary of Scotland’s good people dodging a bullet. Indy in 2014 made no economic sense then, and until there are proper and credible plans for a sustainable economy, it won’t make any sense into the future.

    Sometimes it’s hard to be a woman trying to stay good

  36. Red says:

    Captain Yossarian says:
    18 September, 2023 at 3:22 pm
    The Scottish Parliament has been a massive let-down for everyone.

    Except the worst people in Scotland (they’re MSPs).

  37. Heaver says:

    Right enough, we only need to win once.

  38. Frank Waring says:

    Anybody, anybody at all, can hold a referendum in Scotland, on any subject they please. ‘Westminster’ cannot stop it, and would not try to. Of course, the ‘anybody’ would have to pay for it all — printing, hire of halls, payment of staff, including security staff, etc,etc, somehow — ‘Westminster’ can and will only pay for things, including referendums, that are sanctioned by the House of Commons.
    My guess is that staging a Scottish referendum might cost £10 per head for each independence supporter. Is this really too much to pay for independence?

  39. Ruby says:

    The worst off of all us slaves are you

    ‘Agnostic white, white, white straight pizza eating adult humans who don’t eat quiche. ’

    Used to be known as men but that’s a think of the past.

    Any objections to being called adult humans who don’t eat quiche?

    I don’t think you could be charged for having that on your tee-shirt.

    There could even be variations on the theme

    ie Adult Human who doesn’t eat quiche or pizza with pineapple.

    Adult Human who doesn’t eat quiche & just wants to pee in the urinal.

  40. Ruby says:

    Captain Yossarian says:
    18 September, 2023 at 3:22 pm
    The Scottish Parliament has been a massive let-down for everyone.

    Aw naw is it sinking?

    The ‘adult humans who don’t eat quiche’ fucked up again?

    Might need to call ‘Karen’s Civil Engineering Company’

  41. Liz says:

    Agree, Breeks.
    Thanks Sarah, yes I did sign it.
    We need a new way of doing things.
    Party politics sucks.
    And yes, I don’t know why Alba keep pushing, Scotland United.

    David Henry, I think, said that SNP might change their minds after a Rutherglen defeat but I don’t care if they do change their minds because they would only do it out of self interest to get another 5 years gorging whilst Scotland sinks.

  42. PhilM says:

    Here is your weekly/monthly/yearly reminder that 55% v 45% is not a 10% majority win. The magic number is 50% and No exceeded that by just 5%.
    I’ll let you recover from your spluttering fit and then resume…
    If it were truly a ‘majority vote’ then Yes would need to find 10.1% more votes but they don’t…they need only to increase by 5.1%
    This seems really difficult for people to understand but the current 47%-53% stalemate is not a yawning 6% gap but a within-touching-distance 3%.
    Obviously anyone would want a resounding Yes win but 52% was accepted to take the UK out of the EU and there was barely a squeaky little voice raised about that.
    Edit: I see the Rev has addressed this above but I’ll post anyway.
    Finally, it seems to be pretty much the case with the US constitution and a single case, Texas v White, that once a territory accedes into the federal system that’s it. And yes, I did know that already…

  43. Dan says:

    @ Ruby

    I have to take issue with your bigoted view that males don’t eat quiche!

    On occasion as is my wont I even make quiche. Sometimes in the conventional using a pastry case filled with egg and other stuffs. And sometimes instead of making pastry I go to the shake and bake method by just adding the flour and butter (melted) that would be used to make the pastry into the beaten eggs and milk and then stir the lot together adding in the grated cheese, onions, ham, shrooms or whatever takes my fancy, then pour the lot into a pie case and bake.
    It makes for a robust slice that won’t fall to bits like a conventional quiche would, so it’s an ideal energy packed snack if out mountainbiking.

  44. Sven says:

    Geoff Bush @ 17.59

    Does the Stirling Directive supersede the Referendum promised on June 2022 by the then First Minister, Ms Sturgeon, to be held on the 19th October, 2023 ?
    If the devolved administration do not intend to be bound by the commitment made by the former First Minister, why would we imagine these troughers will pay any more attention to this request.

  45. Casper1066 says:

    To me it was like a death in the family. Never was I so embarrassed 55% bottled it. The pain on that night is what drives me.

  46. George Ferguson says:

    Nine years a slave? Even Solomon Northup got his freedom. I have been saying for some time that it is unsustainable for Westminster to keep refusing a referendum. We just need a bona fide trustworthy independence leadership and that is not the SNP. Until they face Electoral defeat it’s business as usual for the SNP.

  47. Robert Hughes says:

    @ Akenaton

    ” We don’t need another Party, most people are sickened by Scottish Politics, we need a national movement dedicated to the idea of independence, explaining to the people the gains and the losses involved and how an independent Scotland is to survive into the future…… ”

    Correct .

    Though I’d say most people are sickened by all ( current ) Politics/Politicians : and they’re right to be sickened . Or , at best , thoroughly disenchanted & uninspired by them .

    There are , of course , exceptions .

    Hearing Kenny MacAskill , Neil Hanvey & A.B O’Neil speak at the rally on Saturday past is proof of that . These men mean it ; they see the problem/s and offer solutions and have the heart , soul n will to bring those solutions to fruition . Their big problem is the political * culture * of Scotland itself . We live in a time where anything/one of genuine worth , productive of the common weal is being eroded , marginalised . Replaced by rubbish .

    Respect to those named above ( and all the other speakers – Peter Bell inc ) , but , for me , Sara Salyers resonated the strongest . She also means it . Big time .

    Any revitalisation of the currently depleted Scottish Independence Movement would do well to coalesce round the SALVO * standard * . Politics as we know it is killing us .

  48. Jack says:

    Actually I’m not aware of any country – federal or other – that allows for a territorial component to unilaterally decide the terms of succession. Eg the US and Germany (and I believe Australia too) state that no state may leave their unions, Spain and France state their territories are indivisible. Even Canada – which is probably closest to the UK – requires that a province negotiate for independence. I’d assume an independent Scotland would also consider its territorial integrity to be beyond discussion (sorry Orkney). Point being – I think this will always be an academic consideration as the UK has the balance of intl community on its side.

  49. Robert Hughes says:

    AND the music was excellent 🙂

  50. Stoker says:

    That was a good read, Rev. Thank you!

    PhilM says on 18 September 2023 at 6:41 pm:

    “This seems really difficult for people to understand but the current 47%-53% stalemate is not a yawning 6% gap but a within-touching-distance 3%.”

    And considering where we came from at the start of the 2014IndyRef (20-odd % was it? I honestly can’t remember) you can see , exactly, why London is bricking it and will *NEVER* agree to another one. Not in any of our lifetimes anyway.

    Just think where that percentage would be after another year-or-so of IndyRef campaigning positively as we did in 2014. I reckon we’d smash through that 3% in no time at all. And London knows it.

  51. Mike d says:

    Been following wings for a few years now, enjoy the comments, i usually skip the a***holes like asa, dont know why it’s allowed to keep spouting shite,
    None of us would be allowed that on a yoon blog.but hey ho onwards and upwards, will we ever get our independence?, sadly not in my lifetime, with an ever increasing southern demographic and too many subservient house jocks, we can’t educate pork. So i dont know what the answer is. But i know we wont win our independence in any westminster rigged we must take it by other means.

  52. Republicofscotland says:

    The way I see it, if Project Fear hadn’t come up with the lying Vow yes would’ve won, and we’d never have had Sturgeon the Judas as FM.

    As in 2014 when the right FM is in place, yes will win, there’s absolutely no case for the union, and Westminster and its political branch offices in Scotland, along with the foreign media know this, that’s why they must pump out lies and propaganda to hold Scotland in the union as a prisoner whilst draining its assets.

    Apathetic Scots need a right f*ckin shake to wake them up to this.

  53. Ruby says:

    Dan says:
    18 September, 2023 at 6:52 pm

    @ Ruby

    I have to take issue with your bigoted view that males don’t eat quiche!

    Nothing wrong with quiche I do the crustless variety. It’s kinda like scrambled eggs but better because I add cheese & sometimes I add garlic, potatoes & onion. Crustless quiche with potatoes, onion and garlic is delicious in Spain they call that sort of crustless quiche tortilla Espanola.

    Deliciosa! ‘Viva la tortilla Espanola et los hombres Espanoles que comen huevos y solament quieren hacer pis en los urinarios.

    It’s been a long time since I just scrapped through with a mere 55% in my Spanish exam. Fingers crossed not too many mistakes & huevos just means quiche & doesn’t have a different meaning in colloquial Spanish or that I got the spelling slightly wrong.

    I got caught out before by the Spanish word for onion, male goat & box.

    You can’t be too careful with these foreign languages.

  54. Republicofscotland says:

    “Sadly, it was not a “narrow” defeat but a large one as follows:

    YES: 44.7% NO: 55.3%

    Majority for NO: 10.7%

    That was a pretty heavy defeat in my opinion.”

    It wasn’t a defeat Scots voted to leave the union in 2014.

    “Now we also know that Scotland’s natives voted by 53% to independence, while those who came from the rest of the Uk voted by 72% to no. If you look at the franchise of any other country in Europe for constitutional matters, including the franchises of Gibraltar and the one of the Maldives, Scotland’s franchise in 2014 was a complete aberration. A referendum on independence is meant to be an exercise in self-determination. Indyref 2014 cannot be called an exercise in Scotland’s self determination when the vote of its native population was frustrated by the vote of settlers coming from the colonising power.

    We also now know the ridiculous level of interference by the British state in that referendum. We now know that sectors of the UK civil service were involved in the matter “to save the union” and stopped short of campaigning. This is in direct contravention of their code of conduct that states they must behave with political impartiality. Well, you will agree that the perspective of “saving the union” is anything but politically impartial.

    An additional form of interference was in the form of political parties with HQ in England and with representatives of English constituencies as leaders. What was the business of any of these people sticking their nose in a matter that is exclusively for Scotland?

    We also know about the entry of money from entities outwith Scotland, into the no campaign? I include here the money raised by members of Labour, Tories and Libdems outwith Scotland. Money from members of England parties should have never been used to campaign to frustrate Scotland’s independence. This kind of interference would have been forbidden if the referendum had taken place in any other country.

    Then, of course, we have the most outrageous and ridiculous levels of propaganda spouted by the BBC and other outlets. I have nothing to say about the other outlets, if they are privately owned. But in the case of the BBC, people are forced to pay for a licence, therefore I am not quite sure how you can interpret as lawful the national broadcaster using public money to send a biased political message.

    Then of course we have the matter that the UK government, in this instance an external interest, also exercising a ridiculous level of interference. This was in the form of using UK money (money from England, Wales and NI) to pump up all sort of anti-independence propaganda in Scotland (I don’t remember ever being asked If I agreed for my taxes to be used to campaign against independence, do you?), to violate purdah, and to abuse their position of power to announce a vow, a litany of lies, a week before the referendum. This level of blatant interference would be considered as illegal in any democratic country.”

  55. sarah says:

    Strangely enough given the bleak situation today the comments btl are rather upbeat and positive! I feel cheered by the feisty attitude being shown. Well done, Wingers.

    We will not let those feeble and/or devious SNP “leadership” group steal our freedom and sovereignty. They could have been heroes, admired and respected for ever, but they have chosen to try to keep the people crushed. It will end with every one of them despised and reviled.

    We will pursue every avenue to get Scotland restored as one of the world’s independent countries and the People back in charge.

  56. Merganser says:

    It’s not just the SNP that are lunatics. We went down to Wales on a visit to relatives today and suffered the 20mph speed limits there. We were overtaken more than once by cyclists as we complied with the new restriction.

    Just imagine what a Labour Government could do to Scotland by bringing that in. There’s already an 80,000 petition to reverse it.

    The SNP and the Greens must be seething that they didn’t do this first.

  57. Dear Karl & 5:34pm,

    My point is that 10.6% is not a “narrow” margin of defeat, it’s quite a large one (unlike a 2% figure which took the UK out of the EU).

  58. A Scot Abroad says:

    Twathater, at 6:13pm

    Someday, you may have the intellect to realise that you are in the minority, and take your own advice to procreate off, because you aren’t adding valuable.

  59. sarah says:

    @ Geoff Bush at 5.59: “at 11.00 a.m. tomorrow …the Stirling Directive will be handed in at Holyrood and St Andrews House..”.

    Many thanks, Geoff, and all the Stirling Directive group. The work you are doing is almost the only thing that stirs the blood and gives some hope of progress.

  60. Dear Rev. Stuart,

    It’s amazing how many people can turn other people off who are supposed to be on the same side of the noble Cause of Independence for Scotland!

    May God help us.

  61. Sven says:

    Merganser @ 20.03

    The Scottish devolved administration may not have achieved being first with the 20mph limit, however in their National Strategy Transport Scotland have stated that default 20 mp limits wll be rolled out to every road in built up areas across Scotland by 2025.
    Enjoy that extra 10mph whilst you can.

  62. Dan says:

    @ Ruby

    I’ve only got a moment spare as cooking rasp jam which is near setting point and don’t want the sterilised and pre-heated jars to cool too much resulting in a cracked jar or a poor vacuum pull on the lid as they cool…

    You’re deflecting away into Spanish lingo shizzle instead of dealing with the issue of you stating that men supposedly do not eating quiche when clearly that is not the case. Quiche is a French Tart so clearly such a thing would peak the interest of many a bloke (and possibly even if word on the street is correct our recently departed FM). 😉
    It’s one thing saying transwomen aren’t women, but very shaky ground (maybe even sinking school ground) stating men aren’t men!

    When time is very limited I have even resorted to cooking a de-constructed quiche in its most pure and minimalist form, aka a fried or poached egg on toast.


    Got to go without prrof reading seeing as the preview function on this site is still as fooked as the SNP’s indy strategy…

  63. Captain Yossarian says:

    Dan and Ruby – Forgive me; this morning and I was complaining about vapid middle-aged women and Ruby was complaining about sinking schools – that’s right isn’t it? Now Dan’s complaining about sinking schools and Ruby’s nattering away about quiche. At least we’re off the subject of Russell Brand for a while.

  64. John Main says:

    I understand why Rev Stu decided to stretch a point and publish a catchy headline.

    But still.

    Comparing the situation of us Sovereign Scots since 2014 with that of slaves in the Deep South of the USA does the Indy cause no good whatsoever.

    A few BTL posters are happy to use the same metaphor, and that’s a crying shame.

  65. John Main says:

    @Mike d says:18 September, 2023 at 7:28 pm

    Isn’t it possible to insult and no-platform our way to Indy?

    You’re onto something, but I don’t think you are trying nearly hard enough.

    There was defo a surge in Indy support at 7:29 – we all felt it. That can’t be just coincidence, now can it?

  66. wull says:

    We really need to work out how to run a referendum. Switzerland has the most experience of this, and they have strict rules about it. I don’t know them all, but my impression is that they are geared to ensuring that false claims are not made by anybody, on any side, during the campaign.

    If I am not mistaken, I think there is a rule to the effect that those who propose the referendum have to lay down beforehand, in writing, what will happen if they win it. And if they do win it, and then do not do what they had already set out, the result is nullified.

    They have a frequent experience of these things, and the rules are there to guarantee fairness and ensure that the whole population is properly and truly informed. Whether or not exactly the same rules, or similar ones, would work here, and would be fairly and properly implemented, would need to be assessed. But it would surely be beneficial at least to consider them.

    The way the referendum was run the last time was a disgrace. The population was bombarded with all kinds of lies and falsehoods. There should be no repeat of that kind of campaigning.

    I think Switzerland also has the rule that if a petition for a referendum on any topic whatsoever gains a specified number of signatures, then that referendum MUST go ahead. No political party or individual politician or cabal – and not even the Swiss bankers! – can stop it.

    This country allows (and therefore encourages) politicians to lie during political campaigns. Remember the case against Carmichael that was thrown out? There are no penalties against politicians for deliberately and brazenly deceiving the public. That is presumed to be what politicians are supposed to do. It’s their job to act in this way. And we are told that we live in a democracy!

  67. John Main says:

    Unherd predicting that oil is going to be back at $100 per barrel, or above, by the end of this month.

    Does anybody know if that is a good thing or a bad thing for Scotland?

    Does anybody know if that is a good thing or a bad thing for the Indy movement?

    Hint: “the Scottish Government has signalled its intent to ramp up winding down the fossil fuels industry” 16 August 2023

  68. George Ferguson says:

    @Captain Yossarian 8:50pm
    One of the strong points of this unique blog is free speech is allowed. (Lacking in most of the MSM without cancellation) I am looking forward to the Nicola Sturgeon promise of an Independence referendum on 19th October 2023. Just over a month to go. I can’t wait. The anniversary of the 2014 referendum has been largely unnoticed. A day of ridicule on 19 October is coming up for the SNP. Or maybe before that at the Rutherglen bye election. We talked before about a power vacuum creating dynamic change. We will see. I couldn’t engage earlier in the day about the engineering I was granchild minding. The hardest job I have ever had!

  69. Breeks says:

    If 55% – 45% really was an emphatic victory, then why on earth have Unionists been so terrified of holding a second referendum for the following nine years, especially with YES divided and the SNP in the hands of cretins?

    So profound was the cheating, lying, disinformation, and manipulation of the narrative in 2014 that even the Unionists know they couldn’t get away with it twice.

    My, what confidence they have in victory when they’ll subvert a nations democracy rather than put their corrupt Union put to the test twice in ten years.

    Not just thieves and liars, but spineless cowards too.

  70. Captain Yossarian says:

    George – When you let water escape from the ground, it is like letting air escape from a tyre. However, I get your point. You need to keep your sense of humour on these pages, or you’ll be crushed. Everything changes for the Nationalist movement when you elect a credible leader again. The “dynamic”, as they say, changes. Grandchild minding? Try Rubyminding….that would be twenty times worse.

  71. Chris Downie says:

    While it’s understandable that we are collectively despondent, we have to be prepared to seize the next opportunity when it comes – and it will. I think the inexorable move towards a border poll on Irish reunification will be just that. Not only will it turn heads that the region once staunchly British (arguably the most devout, outside the SE English counties) is no longer majority Unionist, it will also not go unnoticed how little the UK establishment will fight to keep the province. In fact, some may say there are bean counters on Whitehall who would be glad to see the back of it. The sharp contrast with how desperate (hell bent, even) that same establishment is to keep Scotland – despite the fact we haven’t voted Tory since the 1950’s and never will again – will be laid bare for all to see.

    Once the people see just how much our intrinsic value is to the parasitic colonial bullies, the moment will be there for the taking, as it was between 2016-2020. We must not let it pass us by again.

  72. Scotland celebrates September 18.

    NATIONAL SHITE DAY . . Half Man, Half Biscuit

  73. Dan says:

    @ Cpt Yossa

    Finished jamming now so will nudge you back to my earlier comment on the previous thread.
    Proper engineering is a process from inception of an idea right through to the finished article. Cut corners and don’t follow well established procedures and screw ups can occur.

  74. Wee Chid says:

    Weren’t we supposed to have another one this year – no ifs, no buts?

  75. Ruby says:

    George Ferguson says:
    18 September, 2023 at 9:19 pm

    @Captain Yossarian 8:50pm
    One of the strong points of this unique blog is free speech is allowed.

    Thanks for pointing that out to Captain Yossarian.

    What age is your grandchild? It can be totally exhausting babysitting young children during the day it’s non stop. An evening babysitting gig is a bit more relaxed.

  76. Mac says:

    You cannot trust the results of the 2014 referendum.

  77. George Ferguson says:

    @Captain Yossarian 9:55pm
    I couldn’t possibly comment on your assertions about “minding”. But realise how the SNP operate. They are largely inactive on social media until an election is imminent or in this case a bye election. A pattern has developed over the years. When they are active they often resort to attacking the person and not the arguments. Humiliation is a favourite tactic. I seen it up close in 2015. Because in any organisation the prevailing culture is set by the CEO, MD or political leader. I didn’t agree with your observations about women in Engineering. After the Finneston report I spent my holidays visiting schools to encourage people to join Engineering but especially women. One time in Golspie High School I took my new wife and she sat in on the discussions. Her conclusions don’t spend any more holidays on this project. I left the programme with the lowest rate of women in Engineering in Europe. But If you are saying the women you encountered were political appointees and not engineers I would agree with you. The ability to do the job is paramount.

  78. Ruby says:

    Captain Yossarian says:
    18 September, 2023 at 9:55 pm
    Try Rubyminding….that would be twenty times worse.

    Take care your friend John Main has already had a warning you could be next.

    Stu does not like personal abuse.

    I’m trying to convince him that ‘flame-baiting’ shouldn’t be allowed either.

    If he did that then ASA & a few others would be in trouble.

  79. Confused says:

    The “massive victory” of 55-45 needs to be looked at in more detail; like its only a 5% swing needed to win it, which could have been done by flipping 200K postal votes. Then there were the people who shouldn’t have been voting in it, getting a vote. Fuck all new scots – no votes for you, ever. Maybe your great grandkids.

    postal votes – why are we really doing this? check this out, and ask why, despite the “problems” the practice is being pushed all across the west

    – further still, in 2014 they mixed-back-in all the postal ballots with the normal ones. There is no reason to do this – except to prevent a separate count. But why would you want to prevent that? Have you something to hide?

    Ruth Davidsons clairvoyance has never been axplained.

    Another little fact, went down the memory hole – on the day, in realtime, twitter sentiment was polling at least 60:40, maybe even 2:1 for YES – I thought we would skoosh it; now we have to explain why NO voters don’t use twitter as much as YES users. Online social media could be used (photo your ballot, upload it) as a realtime unhackable exit poll in realtime, but I don’t see anyone keen to do this.

    Meant to post this curio a while ago when I first saw it –

    the BBC being very investigatively-journalistic about ELECTION FRAUD (in Nigeria)

    paragraph 7 –

    For the first time in a Nigerian election, PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE POLLING STATION RESULTS SHEETS WERE PUBLISHED ONLINE by the electoral commission.

    This made it possible to add up all the polling station sheets and to COMPARE THEM with the results declared at the state level.


    – why not?

    this is another little weird one –

    “black people” being racist about other black people – masked as legitimate concerns about jobs, the economy …

    but they all look the same to me.

    Maybe “black” does not exist, and neither does “white”. South africans are not all impressed by the New South Africans.

    this looks interesting ––30953776

    but do you need a photo id to get a postal ballot?

    Why are they getting all security conscious now? In this way, but not with the postal ballots – this seems to be restricting the people who turn up in person.

  80. Derek says:

    The resident troll’s busy, I see.

    Away an’ shite, you.

  81. Captain Yossarian says:

    George – I wish you well with the Nationalist project. I think it can work and I can see Scottish Labour being a disappointment to a great many people, simply because they will do nothing for anyone and I think that people forget that. A good leader like Salmond makes all the difference. Comparing Salmond with anyone else is like comparing honey with birds’ shite. I personally think that Kate Forbes would have been good for the SNP and whatever comes from Branchform, be it bad, or not that bad, she would have held it together best.

  82. Breeks says:

    Sven says:
    18 September, 2023 at 8:33 pm
    Merganser @ 20.03

    …. 20 mp limits wll be rolled out to every road in built up areas across Scotland by 2025.
    Enjoy that extra 10mph whilst you can.

    Did nobody tell them that if they imposed speed limits of 0mph, they could cut out injuries and traffic accidents altogether? I think we should have an Inquiry into this over provision. Think of the fuel we’d save too.

    Who is it actually pushing for these 20mph zones anyway? Is it some angry tosser on a push bike by any chance? Or did Clarice smuggle a telephone past Barney, and hand it through the slidey drawer thing to Councillor David Begg?

  83. Cactus says:

    One love.

  84. Willie says:

    Breeks. The judicious application of speed limits is to be encouraged. Indeed in some situations twenty miles an hour is too fast as any parent who has lost a child under the wheels of a car will tell.

    And would you do twenty miles an hour in a car park. Some clowns would. And you see only too many of these killer clowns who are recklessly oblivious to the danger they pose.

    Narrow conjested housing estates schemes or near schools being other examples. People and cars do not mix

    Drunk driving used to be acceptable. But attitudes were changed. And like drunk driving we need to change attitudes about speeding in areas where there is risk to people.

    And one last thing too about cars. Yes they are convenient, I use one, my wife uses one. But perceived convenience all too often becomes someone else’s traffic congestion. The true purpose of transport is however accessability and not mobility. Space is a resource and we need to use it wisely, judiciously.

    Consider therefore London and it’s underground system. What if let us say 10% to 20% of public transport commuters decided to change to car as a method of daily travel. At 20% that is something like 1,000,000 extra daily car journeys. And that’s onlyassuming a reduction in Tube journeys!

    I’m certainly not anti car but we need to get safe convenient integrated transport into pinto place. That’s the real challenge. And sadly, loon balls like the Greens and their lap dog SNP are failing badly in that.

    I’m sure you would agree.

  85. Robert Louis says:

    That final line is a gem, and needs highlighted;

    “Because nothing is permanent. The battle has been going on for 316 years, and it will not end until Scotland’s fate is in Scotland’s hands, and Scotland’s alone.”

    And THAT is the point. If this cursed, unwanted, undemocratic, so-called ‘union’ with England actually worked for Scotland, the question would not even arise. But that so-called ‘union’ does not, and never did work for Scotland.

    If only the SNP would get some fight in them. Tell the world, Scotland is being held hostage by England (which actually is the current situation), then we might get somewhere. But the SNP are too too happy to sit on the green benches in Westminster, playing by the ‘old-boy’ rules of England’s wee club.

    That every single SNP MP is NOT standing up in Westminster and trashing that cursed den of corruption, is beyond me. What other country would be so contented to be England’s plaything?

    No matter how our political class let us down, as REV Stu says above, this will NEVER, ever go away. The sooner, this cursed, undemocratic, unwanted, so-called ‘union’ with England is dead, the better for everybody in Scotland. The ‘house jocks’ (‘scottish but british’Tories) can bugger off to England if they don’t like it. They would never be missed.

  86. Robert Louis says:

    Willie at 623am,

    I think most folk understand 20 outside schools and so on. But when I see idiots saying let’s make all roads 20 regardless, I know they are talking pish.

    You, like many on your side, like to dredge up anecdotes about ‘speeding clowns’ etc. but here’s the thing, that is NOT most drivers. Most are considerate and think about the road conditions, slow down when kids are playing and so on. You and your ilk, like to paint this picture of drivers as crazed monsters and it is hubris of the very worst kind.

    Thugs, and car thieves will still speed, whether the limit is 30, 20, or 10.

    I could indulge the same nonsense and hubris as you do. For example, ‘Many folk run over are drunk (true fact) at night and walk in front of oncoming traffic’. See how easy it is? A large percentage actually ARE drunk, btw.

    20 outside certain types of buildings in certain areas makes sense at some times, but blankets 20, 24/7, regardless is just daft. Your wife is dying in hospital after a heart attack, and you are in a taxi trying to get there at 4 am on a Sunday morning. The roads are deserted and you ask the taxi driver to speed up, and he says, ‘sorry I can’t, blanket 20 speed limit, no matter the circumstances. See how daft it is?

    Blanket 20 is virtue signalling of the very worst kind and achieves nothing, except holding up traffic (including buses), couriers and folk trying to get to and from their jobs. Why not 15? Why not 23, or 18? Why not 10? Indeed, why don’t we drag ourselves into the past, and go back to having a man with a red flag walk in front of every car?

    blanket 20, is ludicrous. It is stupidity on stilts, and actually increases pollution.

  87. Lee Floyd says:

    It’s a good point – the British decided upon Brexit, not the EU. For Scotland NOT to decide upon a referendum seems illogical. But then – ask yourself – Scottish people have for years been voting into power their vehicle for independence, or, as we know now, criminals.
    Imagine a country run by criminals. An incompostate. Bit like a narcostate but without the money or the brains.

  88. John Main says:

    I read online that analysis of driver’s behaviour in the 20 MPH zones that already exist showed a reduction of 3 MPH on average.

    That sounds about right.

    Reality is that whereas many (most?) aimed at 40 in the current 30 zones, many (most?) will aim at 30 in the new 20 zones.

    It’s just another lie that we are being told (and that a good number of us will choose to believe). The correct solution would have been to retain the 30 MPH limits and use technology and/or police patrols to actually enforce them.

    Unless enforced, the average speed in 20 zones will creep up again once the initial excitement dies down. And there’s no money for enforcement.

  89. John Main says:

    @Confused says:18 September, 2023 at 10:48 pm

    Fuck all new scots – no votes for you, ever. Maybe your great grandkids

    Haha, in your dreams.

    Haud oan though.

    In the eternal spirit of “no taxation without representation” what if Scotland were to offer New Scots a choice:

    Pay tax and you get a vote.

    Pay no tax and you get no vote.

    Now, that’s what I call fair. And in very short order, you will have millions of Sovereign Scots scrambling to get the very same deal – no vote, in exchange for no tax.

    Bring it on!

  90. John Main says:

    @Lee Floyd says:19 September, 2023 at 7:25 am

    It’s a good point

    It is.

    And here’s another good point.

    The “once in a generation” restriction made sense. This constant political rabble-rousing telling us and the world that we are always “on the cusp of another referendum” has caused incalculable damage to Scotland’s economic and inwards investment landscape.

    Business doesn’t like uncertainty. Business doesn’t invest where the economic situation (currency, taxation regime, political stability) can’t be predicted. It’s never acknowledged on here, but the SNP since 2014 has been complicit in making every one of us Sovereign Scots poorer.

    No doubt some will respond by claiming it’s worth it if it gets us Indy.

    But it hasn’t got us Indy has it? And it’s showing no signs that it will.

  91. John Main says:

    I read Yousaf is in New York giving away Scottish taxpayer’s hard-earned.

    I guess that’s his “eradication of Scottish poverty” programme done and dusted, and he can now move on to “eradication of world poverty”.

    Anybody got his number? I have an idea for him.

    Instead of ramping up North Sea closure, he should reverse that policy, but gift all of the proceeds to overseas causes that will advance his international virtue-signalling credibility.

    Great idea, naw?

    Haha, I crack me up. Tell me again, who was it voted for this clown?

  92. stuart mctavish says:

    O/T (or maybe not wrt the ‘too stupid’ excuse)

    If FM in NY to advise on the war on weather does that mean he’ll get an automatic suspension for failing to attend Fergus Ewing’s disciplinary vote – if not, how does the pairing system operate when everyone obliged to vote is subject to the same 3 line whip?

  93. Luigi says:

    Breeks says:
    18 September, 2023 at 9:39 pm
    If 55% – 45% really was an emphatic victory, then why on earth have Unionists been so terrified of holding a second referendum for the following nine years, especially with YES divided and the SNP in the hands of cretins?

    It’s only a matter of time now before “Once in a generation!” becomes “Once a century!”. They are terrified.

    Yes, the SNP have been a massive disappointment (leaders just not up to the task, I’m afraid). However, the people are still restless, and sooner or later, someone worth supporting will appear. If the British establishment fails to get the masses back into the Labour fold now, whilst the SNP are in such a mess, they are in big trouble (and they know it).

  94. Ruby says:

    There’s been a 20 mph speed limit on loads of roads in Edinburgh for ages & nobody pays any attention those who do are often overtaken.

    ‘not routinely enforced” by Police Scotland’

    Glasgow City Council said:
    “Enforcement in this regard is a matter for Police Scotland.”

    A Police Scotland spokeswoman said: “It has always been intended that the 20mph speed limit is to be largely self-enforcing with motorists reducing their speed to comply with this limit.”

    Do Police Scotland have the manpower to enforce the 20 mph while enforcing all these new hate crimes?

  95. Effijy says:

    Business doesn’t like uncertainty.
    Business likes greed, workers without rights, 10% annual profit increases, reduction in staff numbers to make the remaining do more, they like below inflation pay rises.

    Business likes to have a bastard on top who wants the millions per year in bonuses available to the ruthless.

    Business didn’t fight against the uncertainty of Brexit as it helps deliver much of the above.

    I’m listening to a debate on Consultants strike.
    They are working peoples last chance of defeating the Tories mantra of do more with less now in its 14th year.

    They have lost a third of their income in recent years, work harder than ever in decreasing numbers watching the NHS being crippled before privatisation.

    If they accept a below inflation increase yet again they will invariable get below inflation next year, and the year after and then they will be tempted to do private work only as it’s the only option to keep the standard of living they deserve.

    They will work in a Tory supporters hospital or clinic and it’s their treatment or none.
    Does your child need a heart transplant and will you let them die or sell your home and give the proceeds to Tory Party donor.

    If the Doctors are beaten what chance railway workers.
    They will lose thousands of jobs, the railways will be unsafe, there will be no pay rises and there will be no workers rights.

    There is no left wing party of the workers, of the majority, the rich, the media, the corporations and political parties will not allow it.

  96. TURABDIN says:

    There ought to be no Scottish mps at Westminster. Their presence admits to the second rank status of the Edinburgh parliament and Scotland’s effective powerlessness within the devolved construct.
    Gestures matter.

  97. Sven says:

    stuart mctavish @ 08.38

    I guess if you got to be Party Leader and then First Minister in defiance of your own Party electoral rules, a wee thing like whips or pairing won’t cause much of a ripple.

  98. Breastplate says:

    John Main,
    Unionists make me laugh with their faux outrage at past, present and future Scottish governments making Scots poorer while at the same time justifying making the very good people of England poorer by scrounging off them.

    Hands out with all the entitlement of a spoilt child who has no intention of removing of giving up any freebies and will fight tooth and nail to stop anybody else in their tracks who even thinks about standing in their own two feet.

    What is the collective noun for narcissistic enervated simpletons?

  99. Ruby says:

    I would love to see motorists protest but we don’t really do protests here in Scotland. (Slave mentality?)

    What we could do is all just drive at 10 mph or less. Yellow vests optional.

    It’s a shame that we don’t do protests here in Scotland because

    I always fancied being part of a convoy.

    Ah, breaker one-nine, this here’s the Rubber Duck
    You gotta copy on me, Pig Pen, c’mon?

  100. Sven says:

    Breeks @ 00.19

    “Who is actually pushing for this 20mph limit anyway”.
    Need we ask, it’s part of the Bute House Agreement, a condition imposed by the Green Party who now appear to be running the Scottish devolved assembly.

  101. Breastplate says:

    Agreed. It’s convenient that we can see the end game of private health care across the Atlantic where a huge percentage of bankruptcies are because people can’t afford care in a supposedly civilised society.
    The question is, what are we going to do about it?

  102. Dan says:

    Do they not teach bairns the Green Cross Code anymore, or is the curriculum spent on more important stuff like preferred pronouns, bravely and stunningly coming out as a transcat, and watching vids of the rainbow coloured bare butted dildo sporting monkey to help them learn to read.
    Call me old fashioned but I would have thought learning life skills like staying alive by not walking into traffic was more important for young folk than the genderwoowoo.

  103. Ruby says:

    Dan says:
    18 September, 2023 at 8:33 pm

    @ Ruby

    You’re deflecting away into Spanish lingo shizzle instead of dealing with the issue of you stating that men supposedly do not eat quiche when clearly that is not the case

    Sorry Dan I really did not mean to offend anyone and I mean anyone. I was just trying to find a way to differentiate between adult human male males and adult human male females using the well known phrase.

    Real men do not eat quiche

    I appreciate you are a ‘non quiche eating’ male who not only eats quiche but knows 100s of different ways to prepare quiche right down to quiche in it’s simplest form ie the fried egg.

    Real men do eat fried eggs & chips

    So do I! It’s my favourite of all the quiches. It’s much better than quiche & salad even it’s been foraged and hasn’t cost you a penny.

    Have a nice day. Is the raspberry jam being set aside for tomorrow.

  104. Breeks says:

    Willie says:
    19 September, 2023 at 6:23 am
    Breeks. The judicious application of speed limits is to be encouraged….

    …I’m sure you would agree.

    I’m afraid I don’t Willie.

    I am deeply, deeply suspicious about a greedy and manipulative government which doesn’t want to see wee Johnny get biffed by a car is the same greedy and manipulative government which doesn’t give a shit if wee Johnny doesn’t have somewhere to live, skips breakfast, and gets his tea courtesy of a Food Bank.

    I used to do a lot of work in Edinburgh… I work with stone, so for years, there was a healthy symbiosis with Edinburgh city centre. The Esplanade, Great King St, India St, George St, the Grassmarket, Leith Walk, even Prince’s St itself… Fettes School, even priced work on St Andrews House, but then didn’t return it in the end, just too much grief.

    Then came Edinburgh’s war on the motorist, because the gilded residents couldn’t get parked near enough to their townhouses, and you know, congestion!

    Traffic lights, pedestrian crossings, bus lanes, and parking restrictions cropped up everywhere, fanatically enforced by an army of Traffic Wardens on commission, and to the extent that every trip into work became a stressful and expensive military style exercise in logistics which cost three times the money and doubled the time it took to get to work.

    Fast forward a few years, and I’m guessing nobody else can be bothered working in the City Centre anymore because there’s just too much cost, aggravation and harassment. It’s not rocket science. Since my services are unwelcome in the city, then the city can do without them.

    Funny bit is, couple of years ago, working as a favour to a friend, I found myself working in a basement flat in Edinburgh new town, fixing walls which the residents were moaning about because they just couldn’t get anybody to fix them. Oh dear. Can’t get the staff eh?

    As I walked outside to chuck another swollen purse of silver into the extortionate parking meter, I was struck by the total, and I mean total, lack of congestion and the veritable desert as far as the eye could see of vacant “Residents Only” parking spaces. Park? I could have landed a plane there.

    Not so much Pax Romana as Park Romana. Peace and quiet, because everybody’s dead.

    I don’t price work in Edinburgh anymore. Haven’t for a few years now. The symbiosis was destroyed, so let them reap what they sow. They seem happy to have something to moan about. They don’t care about their stone until it falls off and dents the Merc anyway.

    So I’m not welcome in town because I’d use up a parking space, or my Diesel engine has those nasty, nasty emissions, or I might drive too fast and run over wee Johnny on his way to school at 6am in the morning.

    You know what? I’ve got the message. Good luck Edinburgh getting some other dumb fuck to fix your stonework.

    And if one day some of it falls on Wee Johnny’s head, as it very nearly did one day when Wee Johnny was climbing up the Vennel Stairs to Heriots School, then I hope the ambulance can negotiate the speed bumps in time… It should, if it’s trundling along at 20mph.

    So no, I don’t agree with you Willie. I respect your opinion, but hold a different one. Scotland’s local authorities and government look upon motorists as a cash crop to be harvested or fleeced regularly. It’s all a scam to get more money, dressed up as the latest disingenuous concern in long line of them.

    ‘Tis the Edinburgh way.

    Maybe the plan is to turn back the clock until we’re all on foot or horseback, and our cities are all walled up medieval style, (oh aye, Flodden Wall, worked on that too), and you have Toll Gates to the N, E, S and W, and somewhere to sell sheep and cattle maybe. Tourists would really go mad for it.

    Bring back the Tufty Club… but the old one FFS, before they spoiled that too. Teach kids a bit of responsibility for their own safety and welfare. Then maybe Wee Johnny won’t grow up to be such a completely useless, rainbow coloured douche-bag.

  105. Johnlm says:

    Speaking as an ex member of The Tufty Club,
    20mph rules are just a small part of our Environmental, Social, Governance (ESG)

    Part of the Blackrock power grab?

  106. Ruby says:

    Captain Yossarian says:
    18 September, 2023 at 9:55 pm
    Grandchild minding? Try Rubyminding….that would be twenty times worse.

    You are probably correct. I have spent a lot of time living outside the colony so the ‘slave mentality’ is probably not as advanced as it is in others. On saying that I have always been a bit rebellious even as a young child when I hadn’t stepped foot out of the colony.

    BTW I was not nattering on about quiche or Russell Brand.

    Sure I did post about Russell Brands accusers aka Alphabetties which I felt was not only topical but also relevant to the cause of independence. Think about it!

    Nae luck roping George into your sexist bullying. You would probably have had more success with John Main or Andy Ellis had he not been banned & John Main wasn’t being watched closely by Stu.

    BTW. Do you think ‘flame baiting’ should be a bannable offence here on Wings?

  107. Molesworth says:

    Well said Breeks.

  108. Red says:

    Do Police Scotland have the manpower to enforce the 20 mph while enforcing all these new hate crimes?

    They’ll slap up another few thousand speed cameras. Longer term, they won’t need speed cameras because cars are IoT devices now.

    Just like the outbreak of LEZ’s, this is about making sure you can’t leave the house without paying more tax. And just like with the LEZ’s, if you don’t want to pay more taxes and fines, they’ll cry and accuse you of wanting to kill children.

    It’s getting difficult to see how we’re going to keep the lights on when we have multiple layers of government all trying to ban or punitively tax the basic economic activities on which our lives depend (agriculture, energy, transport).

    Can we all become Members of the Scottish Parliament?

  109. Dorothy Devine says:

    Hear! Hear Breeks.

  110. stuart mctavish says:

    Sven @ 9:07

    True that.

    I was thinking that the 3 line whip must now be obsolete as the only authority entitled to withdraw it pursuant to whatever is said at the HEARING has prejudiced the procedure by not being there to do so. ie the suspension (& whip) is annulled by default and internal investigation will be required to determine why!

    *in alternative, returning early from climate change week would constitute a far greater insult to (green) cabinet members than the one Ewing is accused of, inoke not dis-similar procedural prejudice, and invite an even greater sanction on himself than the one he’d otherwise have have had the party impose on Ewing!

  111. Captain Yossarian says:

    Ruby – Your indefatigability is admirable. I don’t even know what “flame-baiting” is and so you’ll have to forgive me on that. I really hope that the Nationalist crew can sort themselves out because the prospect of Scottish Labour is terrifying. A 5-year dose of them would be twenty-times worse than Rubyminding. (Is that me flame-baiting again?)

  112. John Main says:

    @Breastplate says:19 September, 2023 at 9:10 am

    You have this binary, black-and-white outlook.

    Anybody critical of the SNP and/or ScotGov must be a Yoon.

    The road to Indy never was that difficult a one to follow. It needed competent, focused politicians, enacting real-world policies, garnering Scottish voters’ trust and respect, and thus enabling the jump from devolved government to independent government through thought-out, feasible planning and preparation to be seen as a viable next step.

    Onwards to Indy with not a scared horse in sight.

    Instead, tribalist voting, with the eternal shouting down of anybody pointing out the numerous elephants in the room as Yoons, or ideologically unsound, has delivered you what you have now. A Pretendy FM in New York giving away our money cos that’s all he can work out what to do.

    OK, I get it. 9 years and you have learned nothing. You intend to continue with business as usual. You better buckle in for the next 9 then.

  113. Dan says:

    Re. 20 mph zones to save lives.
    Give it a year and they’ll be calling to bring back noisy internal combustion engines. Leccy cars are so quiet folk can’t hear them coming so step out in front of them and BAM!, they’re a bonnet emblem. Silent killers!

    Driving standards are horrendous these days. Last couple of times I have been out on my motorbike on shortish rides I had folk pull out in front of me several times on both rides. During the day, big bike, headlight on, not speeding, and yet folk still apparently don’t see me. Fortunately my defensive driving techniques have been enough to see these situations coming, but for how long will that be enough…

    I now think there is an issue with a lot of folk’s brains not being able to function properly. Like an ADHD condition or lack of critical thought patterns. Whether it’s due to the near constant over stimulation of the synapses caused by near excessive smartphone / internet / gaming use, or ingesting crappy food / drink / vapes packed with chemicals, the stresses of frenetic modern life, or a combination of all of those things.

    I even recognise in myself a bit of a struggle to switch and adapt from keeping an eye on fast changing political developments with all the myriad knock on aspects that creates, and then dropping back into other work like gardening, building, and other engineering projects where things take a lot more time and a slower pace to methodically work towards the intended outcome.
    Maybe that is the issue, politics is now trying to be done at too fast a pace and has therefore lost long term focus on implementing objectives because the pace at which it flows does not account for the time it takes to properly formulate sensible policy. It’s all just done on the hoof with the inevitable poor results.

    Anyway, it’s stopped raining now so off out to dress some sandstone I collected over the weekend from an old midden dump to replace several frost blown stones in my wall. It’s actually quite enjoyable chipping away at rock when you get into the zone and you can forget all the other crap going on for a while.

  114. Republicofscotland says:

    Scotland’s public services have gone to hell in a handbasket under Sturgeon the Judas’s government and well as Yousaf’s the puppet.

    “Police Scotland has warned it could be forced to make compulsory redundancies as the force faces having to cut 800 officers and staff by April 2024 – with the prospect that overall numbers could fall by more than 2,000 over the next four years if budgets are not increased.

    The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service (SFRS), meanwhile, said it may have to take 18 fire appliances off the road as a result of financial pressures, with chief officer Ross Haggart raising fears about the impact this could have on community safety.”

    The current SNP doesn’t give a toss anymore about Scotland and its needed services and things will continue to go downhill until we remove these lying, deceitful grifting charlatans from office.

    Get the SNP out, give your vote to the Alba party at every election.

  115. willie says:

    Dear oh dear Robert Louis that was some rant and a half. I don’t know what I said that got you off like that.

    Your post casts me as some kind of loon ball swivel eyed monster who hates cars and wants blanket speed limits of twenty miles an hour installed everywhere.

    Can I maybe suggest you read my post again and read what I actually said. Cars, and lorries, and ambulances, and fire engines and all manner of motorised transport are absolutely essential.

    Indeed, very especially so in rural areas, it is crystal clear how critical these forms of motorised forms of transport are. There is no alternative. And neither so in cities either.

    Sadly like so many folks Robert Louis you fail to grasp the issues, the real issues. And of course with some of the loon ball decisions implemented by the politicians this feeds the narrative.

    Breeks addresses some of these issues very sensibly albeit he has a bit of the towel wrapped round his head this morning. But yes, he is bang on about so much of the green or is it anti congestion or parking legislation being about money and bugger the folks living and trying to live.

    Edinburgh or should I say Lothian Transport are to be applauded for the Tram. Trams are by and large very good things. Sadly the Edinburgh Tram project delivery was a world class disgrace.

    And who caused it to be a world class disgrace than no lesser a band of wasters called politicians. Against the then newly formed minority SNP government who wanted to defer the Tram project for very sound technical reasons, the Labour, Tory and Lib Dems combined to defeat the proposal to defer thereby pushing an ill timed project forward that was not ready to go. And the big headline was minority SNP government beaten in a vote.

    And the consequence of this folly to push an ill timed, ill planned project became the farce of history. Twice the price for half a project with years and years of delay and disruption to the iconic Edinburgh city centre.

    But hey, if you don’t know the extent of the utility services to be diverted, the extent of what needs to be diverted, when the services can be diverted, or how much diversion will cost, it’s no surprise that the whole city centre turned into one big elongated construction disruption costing hundreds and hundreds of millions more. But hey, that is what politicos do. So yes, ts no wonder that folks go on a rant.

    Well over a hundred years ago a city called Glasgow was one of the first in the world to have an Underground or subway as the Glaswegians call it. They also had underground train services traversing the city. These were good ideas, way ahead of their time. And now we have the M8 – another fine mess and then some.

    And so an LEZ choking the life out of the centre of Glasgow whilst the M8 chokes the very same Glasgow with fumes. Or am I missing something.

    Anyway, if it is any consolation to Mr Breeks and Mr Louis can I just say gents that I run a 4×4 SUV truck, wear an American cowboy hat, shout yee-haw, and can no longer travel by that mode of transport into Glasgow city centre.

    Quite how I would transport work kit I don’t know – maybe by hand barrow or horse drawn bogie the way things are going!

    But yes, there is a place for integrated transport done properly in the interests of our community, our society. And with that, does anyone know about ferries, the seagoing ones, not the ones at the top of the Christmas trees.


    There that’s me got the towel wrapped round the head now gents.

  116. John Main says:

    The reasoning behind the onset of ULEZ’s is innarestin.

    The clearest answer comes from London.

    In London, you have two constituencies, the car-owning, and the non-car-owning. There is a good correlation of these constituencies between two obvious demographics. There is a leader who fundamentally represents one of these demographics and who is working to entrench his support so that he becomes unassailable.

    It’s a wealth and power transfer from one group to the other, IMHO.

    It won’t work outside of London, at least not yet.

    It’s one of these views like what some posters write about on here – something that once seen, can’t be unseen. I have been looking at government policies in this light since 2005, when I first spotted, in Cameron’s Tory manifesto, a proposal for something that could only have been intended for a specific demographic.

    These days, these kinds of policies come thick and fast from all parties. Well, what do people realistically expect? Politicians will try to harness the votes that are out there, and new votes are the most valuable of all.

  117. Republicofscotland says:

    Our Lord Advocate is currently fighting her socks off defending the unamended GRRB, as the Scottish government (SNP) wastes huge wads of Scottish taxpayers cash in court today, mind you the current SNP government under (Sturgeon/Yousaf) have wasted millions of Scottish taxpayers cash.

    You will never see the same sort of commitment from the LA and the Scottish government (SNP) on fighting for Scottish independence, if you recall correctly the same LA meekly surrendered our referendum route out of this union in the UKSC.

    Yousaf said on radio news that the majority of MSPs voted for the unamended GRRB to pass, however the majority of Scots who elected these people don’t want an unamended GRRB.

  118. John Main says:

    @Dan says:19 September, 2023 at 10:29 am

    Not forgetting that many manufacturers have taken the easy and lazy solution to the packaging of bulky batteries by going down the SUV route.

    More profitable too.

    So you have many more poorly skilled drivers peering out of near-silent “Main Battle Tanks”, deliberately styled with smallish windows and chunky pillars to give the occupants the illusion of safety.

    Then there’s the break up of the road surfaces, the wearing off to invisibility of road markings (including double white lines), the obscuring of road signs and the narrowing of sightlines due to untrimmed vegetation (exacerbated by climate change). And rarely a police patrol car in sight.

    The current attitudes to road safety by our governments show no evidence of joined up thinking. And little evidence of any commitment to road safety.

  119. Bortwhiskels says:

    This issue seems like something with the potential to actually bring the independence movement together, some low hanging fruit we can all agree on reaching for.

    I was going to get in touch with my MP Mr. Hosie to press him to back the Scotland (self determination) Bill that Neale Hanvey has proposed (and maybe call him out on having been at Westminster for 18 years himself without having proposed something similar), but then I saw this:
    “The next stage for this Bill, Second reading, is scheduled to take place on Friday 24 November 2023.

    The House is currently not expected to sit on this day and the Bill is therefore not expected to be taken.”

    The SNP should be all over this if they aren’t going to entertain the Salvo approach.

  120. Tinto Chiel says:

    Dan says @10.29: ” Leccy cars are so quiet folk can’t hear them coming so step out in front of them and BAM!, they’re a bonnet emblem. Silent killers!”

    This reminded me of Glasgow’s trolleybuses, which were used from 1949-1967 and ran on locally-generated electricity drawn from overhead wires. If I remember correctly, one factor in their demise was that pedestrians couldn’t hear them and often suffered the dreadful consequences.

    Of course, our Green-tinged politicians wouldn’t be deterred by any rise in deaths via electric vehicles since they seem obsessed by imposing dogma-driven policies at any cost and since so many folk walk around today staring at their smart-phones or with iPods in their ears, the problem could become a serious one.

  121. Captain Yossarian says:

    As I see it, Mark Drakeford is the same as any of us. Only, his job is to represent the public voice. So, the weeks ahead will prove if the public in Wales actually want this 20mph speed limit to stay. If the answer to that question is “No” then my guess is that Mark Drakeford will pay for it with his job. He was due to be leaving soon anyway. It’s almost as perverse a situation as GRR was in Scotland a while back.

  122. Breastplate says:

    John Main,
    “9 years and you have learned nothing.”

    Don’t you mean “we have learned nothing.” Perhaps not, eh.

    Your hypocrisy regarding “show us the money” for Scottish self determination is rather jarring in comparison with accepted financial loss which you have already told us you had factored into the Brexit vote.

    It proves the singular metric you insist on regarding Scottish independence isn’t necessary in other arbitrary choices.
    Please don’t worry though, this doublethink is a completely normal trait of Unionists.

  123. Captain Yossarian says:

    Willie – The Edinburgh Trams Inquiry has been running since 2016? maybe 2017? It still hasn’t reported yet. As a whitewash, it is matched only by the Child Abuse Inquiry which was set-up at approximately the same time. Lawyers are being paid to do nothing. Did you know that?

  124. Republicofscotland says:

    Live link to our LA vigorously defending the unamended GRRB even though the majority of Scots don’t want it.

    The same energy and commitment would not be given to pushing for independence by this LA and the SNP government.

  125. Republicofscotland says:

    The new chancellor of Dundee Uni (the Yes city) is Lord George Robertson, Robertson who vehemently opposed Scottish independence andone said that it would lead to the Balkanisation of Western Europe.

    Robertson’s son Malcolm is a founding partner in the Edinburgh firm Charlotte Street Partners, an equivalent to London’s Tufton street mob. Malcolm is also married into the Smith family, he’s Sarah Smith’s brother-in-law.

  126. James Che says:

    Alf Baird,

    I apologise to you for not responding sooner to your comment on 18 September 4: 18 pm.
    As way of quick explanation, I made a new years resolution to keep my self busy this year to stave of illnesses and creaky old age, especially as so many loved ones passed away in the last year an a half.
    Actually enjoying life a bit more,
    I have someones hair to cut and beard to trim today, and then while am at it I may as well get the grooming kit out for my Westie,
    Separate tools and styles of course
    Any way, I am still doing my research in between all the other activities,,

    Regards the “Demjse of Crown Acts” , in which I have discovered three so far, passed in Westminster, 1702, 1727, and 1901 respectively, these demise of the crown acts refer to the succession of the crown and monarch of England, France and Ireland,
    And as you say, it needed considerable imagination, lies and aiding and abetting by the “named Scots” whom signed themselves up to the hoax treaty of union,
    this was not at any time a law of Scotland, it is and always was distinctly a English law,

    To apply the English law acts to Scotland by extension ( extended from the parliament of Westminster) in England,
    and in relation to Scotland and there being no Monarch present in the kingdom 1707 in Scotland at the time, and with no such law in Scotland,,
    I have therefore according to records surmised it was also the “monarch of England” not Scotland that imposed Commissioners,

    I confer with your wisdom in your pointing out that the complete operation in relation to the treaty of union, wether between a union of kingdoms or a parliamentary is a one sided hoax union did not concur,
    It appears that the Parliament of England continued as it was after 1707,

    Queen Anne was not officially Queen of Scotland at the time,

    That only one kingdom had a monarch present.

    The Acts on the “Demise of the Crown” were were laws of England. Which included the English parliaments acts of Settlement, 1700. (The kingdom of Scotland not named)

    The Scottish parliament was extinguished from the treaty 1707,

    And the elites in Scotland that signed themselves into the treaty of union, whilst applying English laws of the “Demise of the Crown” prior to any supposed union cid not hold ownership the kingdom of Scotland even through the Scottish parliament.

    That the Scots nation was deliberately avoided being asked do they want a “vote” to join the treaty after much debate on the subject by the English Commissioners and politicians,

    The last is subject being just as important as the others, for it acknowledges that the Scots were Sovereign and separate in Sovereignty as a nation from the parliament of Scotland,

    That is why it is wise to copy onto paper that statement from the UK parliament site in 2023, that “they” decided against putting the vote to Scots to join the treaty of union, because they would vote NO,

    Scots are not in the Hoax treaty of union for many reasons,
    But the last one is important as it leaves the Scots separate from joining whilst at the same time as the old Scottish parliament being extinguished from the treaty of union in 1707,
    And No Monarch in Scotland present to join in a agreed union of two kingdoms,

  127. sarah says:

    Robin McAlpine’s article yesterday is a seemingly convincing analysis of the current strategies for independence – none of them will work. See Voices for Independence to access the article.

    Happily he says that there IS a strategy that would work and he will publish an article about it.

    I can’t wait.

  128. James Che says:


    Do we have a Scottish police force?

    I thought Westminster passed legislation and the Scotland Act, as well as reform bills, that altered the the origins of the police In Scotlands roots and oversight.

    The door laws slipped in under Colonialism.

  129. TURABDIN says:

    «And always keep a-hold of Nurse
    For fear of finding something worse»

    When nurse is a corrupt old bitch who neglects her kids….no thanks.

    The door is open, kick her out.

  130. James Che says:

    The political parliamentary and two kingdoms joined as one kingdom treaty of union leaves alarm bells firing of in all directions.
    There are just so many flaws in conception and construction.

    The parliament of Westminster is one sided in stating, there is a treaty of union when it comes to evident material in historical records.

    Except I tend to believe that the Scottish elites of 1707 are in a treaty with England, their names are individually recorded and their signiture seals in history in Scotland and England,
    A private contract,

    The Scottish people are not, nor their kingdom or their old Scottish parliament,

  131. James Che says:

    Is this why the monarch of England, France and Ireland under the Act of settlement is not Crowned king of Scots recently, but held a separate pretendy crowning in Scotland that was not witnessed by the people of Scotland.

    If he is monarch of The one united Kingdom why two ceremonies in one Country, also why the need to transport the Scottish Stone of destiny to England,? Why not leave it in Scotland?
    Apparently the two kingdoms are not united

  132. James Che says:

    One presumes that Westminster parliament and the church of England is aware of serious anomaly between not the crowning of the Monarch in Scotland Crowning the monarch of England, France and Ireland according to the Acts of settlement and succession,

  133. Merganser says:

    Republic @ 11.43.

    Yes. Why pick a fight on something the public strongly oppose? It is pure arrogance for the SNP Government to waste money on something which they know the public don’t want, and don’t like for good reasons.

    If they win their case, it would indeed be a Pyrrhic victory. They won’t get any thanks for winning it, and it won’t have any effect on future decisions. Another nail in the coffin of the SNP approach to independence.

  134. Breeks says:

    willie says:
    19 September, 2023 at 10:38 am

    Quite how I would transport work kit I don’t know – maybe by hand barrow or horse drawn bogie the way things are going!

    But yes, there is a place for integrated transport done properly in the interests of our community….

    You’re getting warmer Willie, Scotland DOES need an integrated transport system, but there’s no sign of us ever getting one.

    Believe it or not, I sympathise, because industrially, Scotland is in a state of flux, with no clear understanding of how to apply our economy, workforce and communities to embrace Scottish Independence.

    Don’t get me wrong, even without a plan, we couldn’t do much worse. Our current Scottish economy doesn’t set a very high bar, but it’s important to regenerate Scotland with an actual plan and a lasting future.

    I still see Alf Baird’s idea for Scapa Flow as inspirational, Scotland a global transport hub, but we should go for it, integrate the process, and future proof our 1950’s infrastructure when we re-invent our Nation. Give our kids a future here in Scotland, and tempt our diaspora to come home.

    Scotland’s economy is skewed to suit the Neo-Liberal homeowners with money in the bank. Granted, it’s not as warped as the property racket in England, (yet) but it’s firmly on the same trajectory and accelerating. Everybody is employed in Service Industries, and anybody daft enough to want to do something industrial, even rehabilitate an old industry or open a slate quarry has an uphill struggle. Anybody trying that is on a collision course with all the incomers and Nimby’s, who’d rather have shipyard museum on their doorstep than a shipyard.

    It isn’t your job which gets you rich in the UK it’s the casino housing racket, a Ponzi scheme which NEEDS outrageous demand for housing to shore up the stratospheric house prices at the top.

    We are all now consumers valued for what we consume, and the mortgages we can afford to pay, no longer production units valued for what we produce, such as ships, steel, fishing, food and drink, vehicles, buses, trains… I would say housing, but not in it’s current form. That’s just crap.

    It’s hard to imagine an integrated mass transport system for an economy which will never exist until we get shot of the London Government, and even then, take a decade or two to engineer our way back to a healthy and prosperous Scottish economy.

    When and where will the labour be needed? Will it have a place to live? A school? Dear God, please, please, please can we NOT call in the fkg Corporate Housebuilders with all their land banked up for the next few decades, but instead build something durable, permanent, which up-skills the people who build it. “Proper” built-to-last housing that will cause the bottom to fall out the UK’s great Ponzi scheme.

    The SNP hasn’t just given up on Independence, they’ve given up on Scotland. They may be eyes wide open, but they’re completely visionless, and owned by the reigning Establishment spirit, body and soul…

    Such a disappointment and yet another generation squandered.

  135. Kev says:

    @ a proud Scot

    Hahaha, when dodging a bullet = getting successive tory governments we don’t vote for, ripped out the EU against our will, terrifyingly dumb prime ministers like Truss, Boris etc, double digit inflation, rocketing fuel prices, heating costs, mortgage rates and food prices….You seem in dire need of braincells,ma lad.

    Ps, you also seem to have missed the “proud” bit from your moniker.

  136. Chic McGregor says:

    Texas keeps its oil revenue. About $25 billion last year. It goes into schools, uni’s and a rainy day fund.

    Scots get to travel to London take the Eye so they can see what an architectural monstrosity their £300 billion stolen oil money created.

  137. John Main says:

    @Breastplate says:19 September, 2023 at 11:29 am

    Aw naw! You’ve deployed the ‘Y’ word. That’ll shut me up, eh?


    Sure. A 5-10 % downtick in my personal finances was good enough to get me voting for Brexit, after working out my own cost-benefits analysis.

    Turns out it was a lot less than that, too. Not that you are likely to agree, cos you probably will insist that all the damage caused by Covid and The War should be blamed on Brexit.

    So I would probably take another 5-10 % hit for Indy. Off you go now and plausibly show how that is the very worst that can happen.

    And try to remember it’s not all about me, me, me. There’s a majority of Scots out there you still need to convince. I’m only one vote.

    Do it for them, BP.

    Maybes also consider if the name-calling, no-platforming route is as persuasive to them as it is to the regulars on here.

  138. A Scot Abroad says:


    Scotland would have been, and remained, an utterly shit place for centuries without the Act of Union. Be grateful for how it is now. It would be a lot worse without the union.

  139. Captain Yossarian says:

    I see that Lord Hardie has issued his report into the Edinburgh Trams fiasco. That has taken (at least) six years to produce and cost £13m, which is more than the Chilcot Inquiry into the Iraq war. Willie produced a better synopsis of the causes of the fiasco this morning in WoS, FoC. Anyway, Lord Hardie blames John Swinney for being an unaccountable and dishonest liar. I’ll bet that doesn’t come as a surprise to any Wings readers, whatever their politics are.

  140. James says:

    Republicofscotland says:
    19 September, 2023 at 12:03 pm
    “The new chancellor of Dundee Uni (the Yes city) is Lord George Robertson, Robertson…”

    Aye, that’s thon twat who said Scotland is a mendicant nation.

    Those that don’t know the word should look it up, will suit some names on here no doubt.

  141. sarah says:

    Further to Robin McAlpine’s article yesterday, it is his view that none of the currently proposed strategies will work.

    I know Robin is very experienced in political matters and he is clearly intelligent. Also his heart and mind seem to be in the right place i.e. for independence. But I don’t share his view that the Liberation/Salvo route will fail due to it being based on historical documents that are “hundreds of years old”.

    Maori tribes and First Nation tribes in North America have won cases on the basis of treaties that are getting on for 200 years old. Many laws and cases of a similar age are applied in court routinely. So why shouldn’t the Claim of Right, as Charles Windsor swore to, be relevant?

  142. Alf Baird says:

    sarah @ 12:26 pm

    “Robin McAlpine’s article yesterday – he says that there IS a strategy that would work and he will publish an article about it.”

    Robin’s ‘strategic analysis’ thus far unfortunately lacks a detailed strategic appraisal of our colonial ‘environment’ and ‘condition’; which explains why he does not (yet!) see the need for independence and liberation in quite the same way other pro-independence Scottish intellectuals now see it, nor how to effectively remedy it.

  143. Luigi says:

    Sigh. Any normal, decent government would spend money developing its tram, rail, cycle AND road networks. None of this “either or” nonsense. It’s called integration. Of course, if most of the taxpayers’ hard-earned cash has been wasted on illegal wars, corporate dividends and keeping politicians comfortable, then there’s a lot less leftover to go around.

    I still think the hideous great electric vehicles project is going to end in tears. It just doesn’t add up. They think they can force the issue but they are about to come a cropper methinks.

  144. sarah says:

    @ Alf Baird at 2.39 re Robin McAlpine’s view on the colonialism argument.

    I don’t mind following more than one strategy – I just hope that Robin shares his with the rest of us as soon as possible!

  145. James Che says:

    There is no utterly shit union, it is a hoax,

    For a start the UK Westminster parliament site in England 2023 states that ” it” decided not to ask if the Scots wanted to join by voting for a union, because they would probably say “No” .

    That ” debate” that was held confirmed that the Scots were entitled to a Separate vote and were Sovereign from the old 1707 Scottish parliament,

    The Scottish parliament has been extinguished from the treaty of union since 1707, the UK Westminster parliament in England states this in 2023. On its own site.

  146. Kev says:

    @ proud scot

    Thats exactly the way they want you to think, petal…you’re stronger than that

  147. James Che says:

    The ” Demjse of the Crown” act/s passed in Westminster parliament are English acts, whereby if the Monarch of England dies, or absent, Westminster parliament takes over the running of parliament and administration until a new monarch of England.
    Under the settlement act passed in Westminster parliament in England the succession line religion is mentioned and also mentions which Countries are in that act,
    England, France, Ireland.
    Not Scotland,

    The Westminster parliament in England extended that act of settlement to Scotland without legal authority, because it was an act of the English parliament.

  148. James Che says:

    To extend the English act of settlement to Scotland indicates that the old Westminster parliament of England was still active,

  149. James Che says:


    I totally agree with you,
    Robin McAlphines is being very selective in what he chooses as old, based on historical documents that are hundreds of years old,

    That is a contradictory opinion he holds with himself, and a blind one if I may say so, especially if he believes that ” we “Scotland need independence from a historical document hundreds of years old, namely the fallacious treaty of union,

    Old document eh?

  150. sarah says:

    Good point, James Che! Why are we bound by the equally old and therefore irrelevant Acts and Treaty of Union? 🙂

  151. BLMac says:

    Let’s face it.

    The Unionists were right in 2014 when they said our Scottish Parliament was a pretendy one. It’s done nothing but lie down like a cur every time Westminster kicked it.

    It’s a shame with its preoccupation on gender politics and trans rights that there wasn’t just one of them with the balls (real or self-IDed) to stand up and say ENOUGH, and actually do something about independence.

  152. Grouser says:

    What are the SNP thinking about? I noticed that Rhiannon Spears has passed vetting to stand as SNP candidate in Glasgow Pollokshields East. She was a councillor in Pollok and was worse than useless. She flounced off in a huff about something and did not stand for the council again. The MP and MSP – Chris Stephens and Humza Yousaf – know that she was useless, so who is punting her as an SNP candidate for Westminster? She was a pet of Nicola Sturgeon so is she still pulling strings?
    Spears as an MP does not bear thinking about but perhaps they’ve gone through the bottom of the barrel and are digging down.

  153. A Scot Abroad says:


    after 1707, Scotland and England ceased to be actual countries in the sense that we understand today. They are still _called_ countries, but it’s pretty irrelevant. They are just in effect regions of a larger entity, the UK.

  154. James Che says:

    Alf Baird,

    My interpretation of the treaty of union probably differs considerably from most , but I have based it on research of many historical documents, many records.
    And when everything is based in this world today on that very historical basis from treaties of all kinds that holds , binds or disperses, voids or by repeals or annulments, of legalities of how Countries are constructed, this is the only authority on the combined and intregrated legal world today.
    Treaties are contracts, it needs more than one party to make or contract a treaty,

    In the treaty of union 1707, the old Scottish parliament was extinguished from the treaty with England in 1707,
    No existing parliament, no monarch of Scotland present in Scotland, No contract. No treaty,

    Those elite that left Scotland to sit in Westminster parliament, do not and cannot sit there to represent the extinguished parliament of Scotland after 1707.
    No Scottish parliament, no Scottish monarch present, no Contract, no treaty,

    Those same people that signed in Scotland however are in a old documented contract with the parliament of England to that treaty, signed and sealed by themselves with wax.

    but not a union with the kingdom of Scotland, Due to “they were not monarchs” of Scotland, its territory, its people or its Nation,

    This is confirmed by the parliament of England debating wether or not to allow the “Scots” to have a vote separately from the 1707; parliament in Scotland,
    The decision was made not to give the “sovereign Scots” a vote to join the union as they would probably vote No.
    Englands Westminster parliament in 1706/07 did not consider the Scots and the Scottish parliament as one and the same legally, and so the issues was deliberately avoided, not addressed. but ignored.
    This leaves the Scots on the outside the 1707 treaty of union with England.

    The monarch of the Scots was absent, so a union of Crowns could not proceed, nor a union of the Scottish kingdoms territories to Englands kingdom.
    Queen Anne was never Crowned as Queen of Scots. So not a union of crowns or kingdoms, So she negotiated through her employed commissioners as queen of England, France and Ireland. Only and Just for england,

    The “Demise of the Crown” is not a Scots law, but English law, thereby no transfer of authority or powers to the 1707 parliament of Scotland from the monarch that was absent or from the Sovereign Scots,

    Many many flaws in the fallacious treaty of union,

    Queen Anne of England, France and Ireland, under the acts of Settlement and securities, but not ever queen of Scotland,

  155. Republicofscotland says:

    A real eye opener of an article by Robin McAlpine.

    In the end winning over voter is all that matters without it we’re f*cked. We need to prove to the electorate once and for all that they’ll be better off by voting for an independent Scotland.

    That’s it, the small majority that we need to win over to pass the 50+ whatever percentage it could be 55% or 53%, need to know that things will be better and not worse after independence, basically we need to give reassurances via vital information on all aspects of this.

    If we show them that things will be better they will vote yes, well enough of them will to carry us over the line, this MUST be our strategy.

    As McAlpine say the SNP has no strategy, just sound bites that look and sound attractive but lead us nowhere. So we must remove the SNP stumbling block at every election, or the SNP needs to be drastically overhauled which looks unlikely, the latter is the preferred option

    “I have been going on and on about this for ten years now; unless we start taking a serious interest in the voters who are not fundamentally opposed to independence but who haven’t yet been won over, we will fail. Unless we take seriously what they tell us they need from us and unless we deliver that, we deserve to fail.”

  156. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @republicofscotland –

    Thanks for posting link to the court of session.

    I did tune in for a while but, michty me, imagine having yon Bain fighting your corner?

    How such an insipid ditherer ever managed to reach the position she occupies speaks volumes. I refuse to believe that she is the best we have to offer. There must be many lawyers who feel likewise but can’t or won’t say it in public.

    Scots are ill-served – the rot at the top is plain for all to see.

  157. Stoker says:

    A Scot Abroad says on 19 September 2023 at 2:14 pm: “Scotland would have been, and remained, an utterly shit place for centuries without the Act of Union. Be grateful for how it is now. It would be a lot worse without the union.”

    “It would be a lot worse without the union.”?

    Prove it! Did you arrive here via a time machine? You seem to be mistaking Scotland for London, pre oil discovery. Stating your unqualified opinion as fact does not make it true, no matter how often you regurgitate it.

    So, “Scot Abroad”, as i said, prove it. We await the honour of experiencing your superior intellect. Folks, what’s the bet this individual doesn’t provide any evidence to support its claims?

  158. Steven Lannigan says:

    You can’t govern a country if one part of it is constantly under threat of leaving – no other nation in Europe allows it, so why would the UK?

    Nobody says to Germany (a confederation of small states) or France or Italy that they lack self-belief because they don’t allow voters to make large parts of their country separate – it’s simply silly to assume that any country would do this on a regular basis.

    How about we concentrate on the stuff that unites us – like fixing the many problems in Scotland that have nothing to do with us being in Union – ie. most of them.

  159. James Che says:

    E Sarah,

    I get frustrated with the way we are treated by politicians and supposed thinkers that are are gonna save Scotland and lead us to the road to independence if this is the best we have got,

    It is usually unionists we blame for manipulating history to suit their needs of agenda, but maybe there are still Scots that are to Wee, to feart, and to small in their thinking.

    We need intelligent , out the box thinkers, brave people as leaders, not another set of greedy morons holding offices like of 1707 elite Scots that could sell England a Scottish kingdom they historically did not own,

    The likes of Alf Baird, Salvo, the SSRG, liberation. New avenues, many possible avenues that could jointly become a great force.

    Meanwhile I am sure the Snp thinkers could Perhaps sell them a bridge from Scotland , or our many other resources,

    Aghhh…..what can I say,

  160. Eric says:

    The matter should be for the Scottish people to decide.

    It needs 50% plus of the voting electorate to demand one.

    Otherwise we’d be pandering to a minority and the referendum would be one sided again.

  161. Merganser says:

    Ian Brotherhood.

    I made similar comments about Dorothy Bain when she was at the Supreme Court. Her opponent there made her look like a complete rookie, it was embarrassing.

    She is no better in this latest charade. No presence, no power, no spirit, no sign of belief in her own wooden words.

    But even if she wins, the people’s wishes have been ridden – over rough shod. Again.

  162. Republicofscotland says:


    You are welcome, I couldn’t bear to watch Bain either, after her capitulation at UKSC with regards to a referendum route.

  163. Den says:

    @stoker 4:44pm It is not for those in favour of the status quo to have to prove anything, the onus is on those advocating for change to prove that an independent Scotland would indeed be better off or a least no worse off. For many that’s the whole crux of the problem. We never seen a coherent fiscal – economic plan that stands up to scrutiny. All we get is Indy at all costs, If one can be provided then many so soft Nos (no the OO types) might become Yessers.

  164. James Che says:


    That is the SNP strategy dressed up in new word smithing,

    We need to convince the soft NOs is as old as the hills, the problem with that is there is a constant demographic population change from else where outside Scotland,

    They are not here for independence but as extention of the rest of the UK union, just a bit quieter but with cheaper houses compared to else where.
    I am afraid that boat has sailed long ago under the Snp.

  165. A Scot Abroad says:


    revenue into Scotland from the growing Empire rose by 867% from 1707 to 1890, in real terms. It largely paid for industrial Scotland, and if it hadn’t been for the Act of Union, Scotland would have remained a poor and agrarian society.

  166. Ruby says:

    Captain Yossarian says:
    19 September, 2023 at 10:22 am
    A 5-year dose of them would be twenty-times worse than Rubyminding. (Is that me flame-baiting again?)

    No that is not flame-baiting. I’ll cover flame-baiting in another post. That is personal abuse

    Let me explain. If I were to post for example

    “Captain Yossarian is an unenlightened old bodach who is living in an age when men were men and woman were woman and these bloody women knew their place.

    FFS he can’t even Google.”

    I am not saying that, that is just an example of personal abuse. Please note the inverted commas.

    Personal abuse is forbidden on Wings you get PMT’d
    for personal abuse.

    PMT = Pre-Moderation Time.

    I will help you with flame-baiting later but in the meantime check out ASA’s posts.
    Everyone is a flame-bait.
    Also see posts by John Main.

    PS I wasn’t suggesting you were flame-baiting I was just trying to find out your views on flame-baiting.

    If you know the meaning of ‘someone who could start a fight in and empty house’ or ‘wind-up merchant’ you would be getting close to what flame-baiting means.

    More about flame-baiting later.

  167. Dan says:

    @ Den at 5:15 pm

    Please critique this previously proposed fiscal plan.

  168. Johnlm says:

    ASA believes in theft.

  169. Dan says:

    OT Afternoon wasted…

    Would the utter twat that designed the Volvo XC70 front strut setup please step forward for a square go.
    Why not just use a shorter higher poundage spring instead of a ridiculously long lighter rate spring to obtain the same compressed spring rate you absolute prick. Your fucked up intellect of a design requires a more elaborate and expensive long travel spring compressor system to work on the struts.
    Fucking Swedish asshole, hope you cook yersel to a crisp in a sauna malfunction.


  170. Republicofscotland says:

    “They are not here for independence but as extention of the rest of the UK union, just a bit quieter but with cheaper houses compared to else where.”

    James Che.

    Yes a good point that we’ve discussed many a time, and that I’ve seen debated on many indy blogs, and it will need to be addressed when the time comes.

    However first up must be the wooing of the voters, we only need a small rise in the current 47% or so to win. McAlpine makes the very relevant point that we must convince the electorate, or enough of them to get us over the line, by showing them that they’d be better off in an independent Scotland, even if that extends to at first, to much better public services which in my opinion would be a good starting point.

    But even before we can begin to do this we need a political party/parties in office that can foment this strategy, currently we don’t have that, which is the bedrock on which everything else can be built on.

    Now there’s roughly three years till the next Holyrood elections, and before that we have the GE, I would like to see the SNP lose many seats at the next GE, and for the membership along with maybe several real indy minded SNP MSP (if they still exist in the party ) who’ve kept their powder dry for the right moment to arise, to seize the party and oust the leader and his clique, I don’t know if this is possible, or if the will still exists within the rank and file members and some SNP MSPs to do so, if it did we could see the party get back on track, and I’d hope that Alba would win some seats in the next GE, giving the party a higher profile as we moved into the following Holyrood elections, where Alba could then win MSP seats, and both parties under the right leadership could then plan this strategy and implement it if the numbers were right.

    It is of course a long shot and many planets would have to align as they say for it to occur, but for the last nine years the SNP haven’t had a real strategy for independence, its all been sound bites on what they can’t do, whilst carrot dangling indy under our noses.

    McAlpine in his article, says he’ll publish a strategy on indy soon, lets see what his approach will be, certainly the voters will be his top priority, as they are the key to freeing Scotland from this prison of a union.

  171. Captain Yossarian says:

    Ruby – Today’s news is the publication of Lord Hardie’s report into the Edinburgh Trams. It is not Ally McCoist, Russell Brand, sinking schools, flame-baiting or anything else.

    Lord Hardie was the Labour Party’s go-to lawyer for cover-ups (and the Labour Party excel at cover-ups) and so I was expecting another cover-up, but that’s not been the case and he blames the Council and Swinney. He’s pretty clear on that.

    Swinney of course denies it. Categorically. Mhairi McAllan is certain that Lord Hardie has got the evidence wrong. This is despite the fact that Lordie Hardie has been studying the evidence for the best part of a decade, during which time Mhairi McAllan was still at school, studying for her cycling proficiency test.

    I understand she was once a lawyer and so Swinney will have handed Scotgov redactor-pen duties over to her. That’s what it looks like anyway. All we need is for a fair conclusion to Branchform and we may see the green shoots of recovery from the putrid wilderness years of Holyrood.

  172. Den says:

    @Dan 5:55 Dan that’s not a fiscal plan. We need to get real and stop the fucking 39,000 feet shite and trying to prove who has the biggest balls. We need a plan that pays pensions, benefits, healthcare, all the tangible things that keeps the country running day to day.we have had 14 years to get our shit together and we still don’t have the embryonic stages of a central bank. But Scottish politicians spend more time caring about letting men use women’s changing rooms than getting an economic case pulled together for the good of an Indy Scotland (it’s a disgrace)Here is a thought the money spent on trams and ferries would have been a great amount of startup cash for that central bank if the SNP was wired up right. Then people might have started taking note and getting behind it.

  173. Ian Brotherhood says:

    A lot of reminiscing going on today.

    Recently went back to see what it was like in here. Grim. No-one wants to remember it.

    Also watched Rev’s interview with Alex Salmond (the garden gig) and he was saying how it was the sight of the bussed-in thugs attacking us in ‘George Square’ which made his mind up to keep going.

    We’ve all got our own reasons for not giving up. Personally, it’s about honouring the memory of friends who didn’t make it this far. We owe it to them to at least stay optimistic. If we lose hope then it’s over for sure.

  174. Dan says:

    @ Den

    Ach, stop talking yer shite.
    It’s exactly replicating the current UK’s system of management and taxation of the resources, industries, and corporations that currently serves the UK population you seem so happy to be living under. That same setup implemented in a self-governing Scotland would mean the proportionally higher resource and assets the Kingdom of Scotland has would mean the revenues raised would be higher per head of the Scottish population.

    Jim Rogers explains the oil element in. 2 mins Then factor in the same for all the other areas.

  175. shug says:

    I see the BBC is struggling to get their head around the fact that “a lake” in N Ireland “Lough Neagh” is suffering from blue algal bloom.

    Several times they refer to it as a lake

    Why are these people so stupid

  176. Dan says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood

    I was looking back and found some great “vaccine” wars discussion btl.

  177. George Ferguson says:

    @Ian Brotherhood 7:47pm
    Yes I remember the 2 young girls getting their flag ripped from them in George Square. An image that is difficult to erase. I am optimistic, probably more than ever since 2015. Sturgeon has gone, Swinney got his knuckles wrapped today. Humza is lost at sea. The SNP are on the way out. Scottish Labour are not the answer but a useful mechanism in getting rid of the SNP. We start again this time less naive than before. Beware of false prophets with strategies behind a paywall. No more cash generation from the Indy movement. Anyway watching the Celtic game so I am out. And yes I support all Scottish teams in Europe.

  178. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Dan (7.59) –

    Thanks for that link, must be one of the very few Cairns cartoons I haven’t seen.


  179. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @George Ferguson (8.11) –

    Good to hear some optimism, cheers.

    Haven’t heard anything about Swinney getting his knuckles rapped. Must go and check who was doing the rapping…


  180. Ruby says:

    “Flamebaiting is when you are saying things you know are not likely to be well received and provoke heated and emotional response. Flamebaiters need to be avoided because they have a sadistic enjoyment of others’ anger.”

    Flame-baiters are the scum of the earth.

    I would say ‘A Scot Abroad’ is the perfect example of a flame-baiter.

    He does not support Scottish independence but he logs in to this independence supporting site on a daily basis in order to make you angry and when you do he gets enjoyment from your anger.
    Ha! Ha! Ha! Caught you suckers!

    He posts things like
    Scotland will never be independent
    Scotland has no resources
    Scotland is shite
    and all the rest.

    We are asked to just ignore him, don’t feed the troll & all that.

    I think that is a big ask. Very difficult to ignore some arrogant tosser who is just here to make you angry.

    Imagine this guy in a pub. How long would he last before getting into a fight?

    Does the bar manager say to all the anger customers
    ‘just ignore him’ ‘don’t feed the troll’ ‘don’t swear and do not call him names’?

    No I don’t think so the bar manager will say ‘sorry Sir but you are going to have to leave you are upsetting the other customers’. Please drink up and go.

    Manager calls to bouncer. ‘Jimmy could you see this ‘gentleman’ out’

    What I am trying to do is see if flame-baiting can’t be a bannable offence here on Wings. Basically get these antagonistic, sadisitic wind-up merchants shown the door.

    Everyone who agrees with the above needs to be able to recognise the sadistic flame-baiter and in the event of flame-baiting becoming a bannable offence be able to report them to Stu.

    Some flame-baiters are easier to spot than other.
    Ask yourself does this poster really piss me off every time he posts. Is this poster always antagonistic? Do we need to scroll past his posts, not feed the focker & above resist from calling him a c*nt.

    Are you fed up having to haud yer wheesht, scrolling past and not feeding the fuckin’ troll?

    There are differences between trolls & flame-baiters but they are closely related. I prefer the term flame-baiter I think it’s more descriptive and I like that the term ends in baiter!

    Instead of don’t feed the troll it would be ‘don’t take their bait’.

    There again no bar manager is ever going to say to his/her angry customers ‘don’t take their bait’

    Have you ever seen that?

    I’m thinking of a pub full of Celtic supporters with a Rangers guy spouting off about Rangers

    “Your team is shit always been shit”
    ‘Fuck the pope” & “God Save the King”

    Bar Manager in pub full of Celtic supporters say

    Now boys just ignore him.
    Walk quickly past.
    Don’t feed is ego.
    Be kind!

  181. Ruby says:

    Captain Yossarian says:
    19 September, 2023 at 7:22 pm

    Ruby – Today’s news is the publication of Lord Hardie’s report into the Edinburgh Trams.


    So what? Will it be any different to the Iraq Inquiry, The Leveson Inquiry and the Alex Salmond Holyrood Inquiry?

    What about the news of the GRRB court case starring Marilyn Monroe? Any interest or do you just do sinking schools & trams?

    Stu made me laugh with his comment about Dorothy Bain’s voice and expecting her to break out into ‘Happy Birthday Mr President.

  182. George Ferguson says:

    @Ian Brotherhood 8:23pm
    Edinburgh Trams Public Inquiry. Walked away from a 500 million overspend. Not me Gov, Edinburgh Cooncil. Of course the Ferries have the potential to be worse. The National Auditor has found a 128 million mysterious gap in the accounts. I doubt the Ferries will ever sail because of safety licensing concerns. And it goes on regardless of due diligence in public finances. And taxes are going up to compensate whilst not one single person has been sacked or no humility from the Scottish Government. The end game, that is why I am optimistic. My advice to Ferguson Marine and Jim McColl put on your tin hats.

  183. John Main says:

    Pleased to see a number of posters on here are coming round to my way of thinking.

    Even RoS! See his post above:

    If we show them that things will be better they will vote yes, well enough of them will to carry us over the line, this MUST be our strategy.

    Welcome to the real world, RoS. Good to have you onside.

    Joining with Alba too I see, with its decision that the route to Indy lies through making the economic case.

    A big part of showing that things will be better can be summed up with a catchy T-shirt slogan. All together now:

    Show us the fucking money!

    Seemingly the last words of a certain William Wallace too, according to Breastplate.

  184. A Scot Abroad says:


    All perspectives on Indy are allowed here. Not just your’s.

  185. Jim Dryburgh says:

    The British State obviously have control of the SNP. We must pressurise Yousaf and if he doesn’t yield to join Scotland United then that will send a clear message where the SNP stand with Independence. They’re saying nothing but are doing the cause huge damage.

  186. Ruby says:

    A Scot Abroad says:
    19 September, 2023 at 9:40 pm


    All perspectives on Indy are allowed here. Not just your’s.

    Did I say it wasn’t? What I said was let’s make flame-baiting a bannable offence.

  187. Derek says:

    “Dan says:
    18 September, 2023 at 10:16 pm

    Proper engineering is a process from inception of an idea right through to the finished article. Cut corners and don’t follow well established procedures and screw ups can occur.”

    “Failure to prepare is to prepare for failure”, or something like that. There’s a “proper preparation prevents…” one too, but I can’t remember it.

  188. George Ferguson says:

    @John Main 9:20pm
    Perhaps it’s your presentation skills John. Your on record as saying you understood Constitutional change may result in a reduction in individual economic circumstances for Brexit. So not much show us the money in your rationale at that time. But I agree with you losing hundreds of millions and putting up taxes is not a good look for Holyrood especially when the money is unaccounted for. Appointing mates and acceptance of imported ideologies has not served Scotland well. The people have the power to change the moribund status quo. My concern is the consent of losers in a future Independence referendum. Look at Westminster as an exemplar. Bercow led a rebellion and gave the SNP every opportunity to materially deliver change for the benefit of the Scottish people. Wasted by them. But change is afoot. An economic case can be put forward but we have no leadership to do so. And already the Indy cash generator has shape shifted into something else. I am a silent member of Alba perhaps I shouldn’t be so silent. Create policies that the majority of Scottish people can get behind. It’s not difficult.

  189. Derek says:

    “Ruby says:
    19 September, 2023 at 9:01 am

    There’s been a 20 mph speed limit on loads of roads in Edinburgh for ages & nobody pays any attention those who do are often overtaken.

    A Police Scotland spokeswoman said: “It has always been intended that the 20mph speed limit is to be largely self-enforcing with motorists reducing their speed to comply with this limit.””

    I wonder if this means that the 20 limits aren’t legally enforceable? Plod drives down the local 20-limit road in his car a couple of times a day, but doesn’t do anything constructive.

    Dan, (1) regarding driving standars; just expect them to pull out in front of you (as you said); it makes no odds, ‘cos you’ll get them through the traffic in no time.

    (2) Regarding XC70s, it’s probably to achieve long-travel suspension (were your compressors not long enough?) without the expense of engineering it properly like wot Citroen did!

  190. Chic McGregor says:

    IMO Stuart’s judgement is that ASA’s ‘contributions’ are an unintended boost for indy, especially for casual visitors.
    IMO he is probably right in allowing it to spout forth.

  191. Bernard de Linton says:

    Re the silent electric cars,Was it ths Torys or the Snp ,that allowed those “electric motorcycles” on our Scottish cities pavements? Driven by many new arrivals ,delivering take aways to homes too lazy..ahem ,busy,to cook,at speeds near 35mph ..(Union st Aberdeen and Glasgow city centre) every day.I was a total mug! Mot and taxing ,insuring, small motorcycles since 1976… i should have just ridden them on the pavements.Talking of pavements.. just visited Glasgow centre today, for first time in 5 years.. i hope Morocco’s pavements are not as bad as that after the earthquake..holy shit! what a mess they are in.

  192. Dan says:

    @ Derek

    “Prior prudent planning prevents piss poor performance” is the one I’ve heard of. But unfortunately in Scotland this seems a rare thing to witness.
    We seem to be a nation that thinks tactics is a type of mint… 🙁

    Re. The Volvo strut, they may market it as long travel but the reality is the strut’s shock absorber stroke length isn’t particularly different in travel than say a Mondeo. So why the need for an excessively long softer rate spring which once fitted could have the same installed preloaded rate as a stiffer but shorter spring which could even be progressively wound if it was that necessary.
    And as most shock absorbers will be static sagged to around a third of the travel with the weight of the car, then whats left of the travel before the bumpstop comes into play ain’t anything special, plus it’s not like it can drop a wheel significantly because the anti-rollbar will come into play.
    Springs was near 2 feet long and offset on the strut at the lower spring seat and concentric at the top, so an absolute pisser to compress and get both the top spring seat and then strut top mount on and seating correctly as it kept wanting to cant away from top of the shock shaft whilst compressing the spring.
    With so much pressure stored in the compressed spring it’s really not the sort of thing you want to be wrestling with and have fingers in positions that could get mashed if something moved or slipped at the wrong time.
    Fortunately my pal has a fancy caged air powered compressor but even he was saying those struts are a bastard to do.

  193. A Scot Abroad says:


    don’t get above yourself. You haven’t the wisdom of the entire world.

  194. stuart mctavish says:

    Derek @10:29

    Wondering if the 20mph speed limits aren’t legally enforceable..

    The brilliant Lord’s Advocate touched on s’ thing that might interest you yesterday when she confirmed that, to be lawful in Scotland, legislation and decision must be both rational and reasonable:

  195. Ruby says:

    A Scot Abroad says:
    20 September, 2023 at 4:59 am


    don’t get above yourself. You haven’t the wisdom of the entire world.

    Are you saying stupid slaves like me should know their place?

    Sometimes it’s hard to be a woman who is trying to be good

    Flame-baiting should be a bannable offence.

    For just how long are we supposed to scroll by, ignore flame-baiters, not feed the troll, turn the other cheek?

    Wouldn’t it be a lot fairer if the flame-baiters were shown the door?

  196. John Main says:

    @Ruby says:20 September, 2023 at 7:42 am

    Flame-baiting should be a bannable offence.

    Wouldn’t it be a lot fairer if the flame-baiters were shown the door?

    I 100% support your right to establish your very own web-based blog, publish hundreds of quality articles containing top-notch journalism, gather tens of thousands of readers and thousands of BTL posters.

    Once you have done all of that, you can censor to your heart’s content, with my blessing and full support.

    You go, girl!

  197. Ruby says:

    John Main says:
    20 September, 2023 at 8:20 am

    I 100% support your right to establish your very own web-based blog,

    Why would I need to do that? Any reason why I can’t just stay here and try to influence how things are done?

    I’m pretty sure Stu is man enough to handle a bit of constructive criticism.

    Are women not allowed to speak in your opinion?

    Are you worried that I will be successful in persuading Stu to make flame-baiting a bannable offence?

  198. Ruby says:

    John Main says:
    20 September, 2023 at 8:20 am

    I 100% support your right to establish your very own web-based blog, publish hundreds of quality articles containing top-notch journalism, gather tens of thousands of readers and thousands of BTL posters.

    Once you have done all of that, you can censor to your heart’s content, with my blessing and full support.

    You go, girl!

    Are you answering on behalf of Stu?

    Take care I believe Stu has his eye on you.

    Stu does not like personal abuse and my argument is it’s the flame-baiting that causes the personal abuse. It’s all about cause & effect. Flame-baiters are the cause and personal abuse is the effect.

    What do you think happens when someone comes onto a Scottish Independence supporting site and says

    Scotland is shite!
    Scotland will never be independent!
    Scotland has no resources!

    I’m arguing that if flame-baiting were banned their would be no personal abuse therefore no extra work for Stu and happier posters.

    Be warned should I be successful in this endeavour I will move onto spamming.

    Perhaps better get in as many ‘show as the moneys’ while you can.

  199. Neil Singleton says:

    As of 18:27 on 20.09..2023 the petition in WALES calling on the Welsh Government to rescind and scrap the universal 20 m.p.h. speed limit, has reached THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND.

  200. Big Tam says:


    ‘Scotland is a country.
    Scotland is not a country.
    Scotland is both a country and not a country at the same time.

    In reality Scotland can’t be both.’

    I’m afraid that’s precisely the truth: that it both is, and isn’t. But mostly isn’t.

    The parliamentary union of 1707 abolished both England and Scotland and replaced them with the United Kingdom of Great Britian and Nothern Ireland. This is why the legal entity that is the UK exists (and persisted after the union with Ireland in 1800, and the truncation of that union in 1922).

    It’s why our United Nations seat is for the UK, and why it’s the UK on so many other forums.

    At the same time the ‘nation’ of Scotland persisted – as an idea, as a people, and as a region of the UK. We retained many of the trappings of a nation state – legal and educational systems – respecting Scotland’s previously separate evolution.

    This persists in sport and a few other areas, and got a boost when the Scottish Assembly was set up in 1998. The assembly was renamed ‘government’ by the SNP, but it isn’t really – it’s just a giant version of Strathclyde Regional Council, with the rest of Scotland bolted on.

    This assembly has devolved power in as much as Westminster permits it. That’s the current constitutional settlement. That’s why there is no such thing really as a Scottish vote on Brexit (it was a UK vote) and it’s also why constitutional matters like whether or not there’s a referendum are reserved to Westminster – it’s simply not a devolved issue.

    Make no mistake – the ‘country’ tag has no substantive meaning beyond the ‘soft’ one culturally assigned, a nod to history. The entity that exists, for all intents and purposes internationally is the UK. Full stop. Anything else is linguistic buggering about.

    Also be aware that just about every country in Europe is made up of former kingdoms that disappeared between the Middle Ages and 1918. Scotland has as much claim to be a distinct political entity as, say, Bavaria (became part of Germany in 1873) or Sicily (merged with Naples in 1816 and part of Italy in 1861) – both of which have local parliaments or assemblies, but no automatic right to re-incarnate as an independent state.

    I personally see no problem with being a UK citizen – with all the rights and privileges associated with that. I don’t feel very different to most people in England, with so much shared history post 1707 (or post 1603 after the Scottish takeover of the English crown).

    Living down south, as I have done for part of my adult life, I found English people just as pleasant, generous, caring, community minded, as anybody I know in Lanarkshire (and without the nasty sectarian rubbish I grew up with here to boot). I have no time for the ‘wha’s like us?’ crap, especially after the rubbish my kids put up with when we first moved back to Lanarkshire, for their English accents (despite being born in Glasgow). Anything Scots claim about English racism, we should look at ourselves first. Because it’s self-serving, delusional nonsense at variance with objective reality.

    As to the complexity of identity – I enjoy being British, I enjoy being Scottish, I also feel pretty European (speaking decent German and French, and also having done six years of Latin when we still had a decent education system, wrecked by the SNP). I see nothing wrong with being Scots and British and I really don’t understand the need to reject the highly successful union of more than 300 years since 1707.

    I also see nothing wrong with major change, such as seccession territory, that would affect everyone in the UK – in areas such as defence and national security, or the rUK world ranking in overall GDP – having oversight at UK level.

    Very few countries have a constitution that allows their break-up. In the UK we do, but we simply can’t have referendums every few years – there’s already a ton of evidence that business investment crashed in Scotland due to the uncertainty.

    Govern well, be a beacon of light, be consistently over 60% in the opinion polls, have proper answers to the hard questions, and you might get to the point in a decade or two that whatever UK government is in power, it simply can’t deny one. You might even persuade me and people like me to give it a go.

    But till that hard work is done, stop bleating and get on with it. All that pissing and moaning and blaming and barrack room lawyering does Scotland no favours whatsoever.

  201. fran says:

    That last sentence Rev ?

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