stooges of the Kremlin

Wings Over Scotland


Making your own news

Posted on September 12, 2017 by

Today’s papers all report, with varying degrees of prominence and glee, this “story”:

But which internationally-regarded rankings are these, exactly?

The Express calls them a “global prosperity league”:

The Herald goes with “wellbeing league table”:

And the Scotsman mixes and matches with “global table of wellbeing”:

The most minimal coverage appears in the Daily Record, in a piece which must surely mark the only appearance in recorded history of the words “honest assessment” next to the words “Jackie Baillie”:

But the tabloid’s admirably concise report reveals the reality that the “study” is in fact just the work of a single person, produced entirely off his own bat rather than for or representing any organisation, and that person is long-time serial Nat-basher and ex-UK government civil servant John McLaren.

(The last time we encountered former Scottish Labour policy adviser and member Mr McLaren, we noted that him slagging off the SNP was a shocking revelation on a par with the Pope being revealed as a Catholic or the sea containing large amounts of a wet salty substance.)

We’re expecting a lot of column inches tomorrow for our new independent report which will controversially announce that Aberdeen are the world’s best football team and all the coolest people on Earth live in Bath. Get up early before the newsagents are all sold out, folks.

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    1. 12 09 17 12:56

      Making your own news | speymouth

    314 to “Making your own news”

    1. Michael Thomas Fadian says:

      Jackie the hut next to the headline Failure in education . How appropriate ..Keep up the great work Stu..

    2. James Sneddon says:

      It just shows the depth newspapers will go to to persue thier own anti scottish agenda. A form of self loathing with a dollop of low sales, low staff levels all combining to produce a whole media that really is a shadow of its former self. Most folks I know who buy newspapers buy them for the sports page and the telly, never because of the quality of the content of the rest of the newspaper(with probably the exception of The National-buying that is a statement of intent. I still don’t get the owners not making the link between declining sales and the ‘quality’ of their product.

    3. David McCann says:

      Yes. I interesting article appeared some time ago about the gloomy predictions of said McLaren and his co-academic Jo Armstrong adviser to Labour First Minister, Jack McConnell in Bella.
      Worth a re-read.
      http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2012/02/23/the-professor-the-think-tank-the-black-black-oil/

    4. bobajock says:

      If I had an abacus for every made up figure, story or … well.

      I would have … umm … 2 or 3 more than I can count.

      You have to be dumb and gullible as a BritNat, and it shows.

    5. Betty Boop says:

      Scotland Tonight (last night 11/9, which I accidentally caught because I forgot to switch off, featured some character called Andy McIver and that bloke who doesn’t give any credit for building a much needed, fabulous bridge, Paul Sinclair having a Scottish Parliament (undisguised SNP baaaad) bash.

      On the other side, in support of ScotParl, we had the Scotland supporter, Lesley Riddoch, who must have wondered where these two characters had been for the last 20 years. The woman is clearly a saint just for being a “go to” commentator, the token voice of reason.

      It is bad enough seeing some of the garbage print media filled with ScotParlrubbish, Scots useless, SNPBaaad, ergo Scotland a basket case, from homegrown detractors, but, it is even worse being exposed to them in your own living room.

    6. Robert Graham says:

      The only thing missing is reporting of the mass exodus that is sweeping the country ,by their reckoning the ports , roads , airports and every other means of escape will be overwhelmed , a wall will be required to stem the flow , it’s so bad here the UN will be called to assist refugees .

      That i am afraid is the situation alluded to directly or the more subtle daily drip of , yer rubbish , yer rubbish ,

      I wonder if red cross parcels will be available because they will be needed .

      Will our phones work , can we still get access to blood transfusions , the futures so bleak , outside agencies will be needed to assist ,depression is evident all over the country .

    7. Ottomanboi says:

      Ah! the Unionist propaganda news sheets and the tediously repetitive diss the Nats leitmotif. Of course the countries in the ‘comparison’ are independent, sovereign states with autonomous governments. Scotland is a ‘region’ of the UK with a subordinate legislature. We should be flagellating ourselves for being so miserable, shouldn’t we?

    8. Phronesis says:

      Goodness- what an extraordinary fixation the MSM has on the SNP and Scotland’s place in the world- it must be soul destroying for them. Group therapy might help alleviate their angst.
      There is a whole world of really important political issues to explore particularly if one is a committed journalist.

      The sovereignty chimera- an excellent article summing up the delusion of Brexit. UKOK doesn’t actually own UKOK but quite a few foreign national governments do.

      ‘It has been Conservative policy in Britain since Mrs Thatcher to reduce the size of the state in pursuit of some golden age where private ownership and management would dominate…The most absurd paradox of Britain’s privatisation is that it has actually led to the nationalisation of British infrastructure by foreign governments with parts of former British state firms becoming the property of the governments of France, the Netherlands, Sweden, China, Singapore and Abu Dhabi…

      The most egregious example of this is water and sanitation where the privatised owners (mostly foreign) have fully exploited their economic power through their pricing policies. They are moreover in many cases now private firms owned by pension funds in Canada, Australia and the Netherlands. These are managed through subsidiaries located in tax havens where they pay themselves huge management fees. Whereas a major aim of all of these privatisations was said to be to maximise individual share ownership in the UK in practice this fell from 40% before Thatcher came to office in 1979 to under 12% now…

      British Governments since Thatcher have been totally disinterested in who owns what unlike most other countries which have had strategic objectives concerning ownership and control. The result is that most major industries are partially or wholly owned by foreign enterprises – including automobiles, pharmaceuticals, ports and airports, banking and finance and electronics…

      At the core of the claim for economic sovereignty (and Brexit) is the claim that it is possible to control immigration. But this is another chimera since cutting immigration would mean immense damage across the board to the output of economic and social goods and services. The scale of dependence on skills and experience is such that there is no way that the UK could dispense with EU and other sources of immigrant labour. There is simply not the capacity to train those needed to substitute for the labour that would be lost through any set of autarchic labour control policies, and it would take many years to create this capacity and train British workers…

      In today’s integrated world it is a chimera to believe that one can establish some presumed long-lost economic sovereignty. Economic and other systems have become too integrated to believe that one could dismantle existing structures without immense costs – social, economic and political, The UK is deluding itself if it believes that economic sovereignty can be re-established’

      https://www.socialeurope.eu/economic-sovereignty-delusion

    9. dandy dons 1903 says:

      Well if thats the case as the yoons say then it just proves the uk union isnt working for Scotland and we would be far better out of it. All this crap is happening under the unions aka westmonsters finanancial watch not holyroods.

    10. Ian McCubbin says:

      Leaflet building a better Scotland covers 144 actions and initiatives SNP government has done to move Scotland up any tabke.
      What has WM done create rich elite unionists from politicians.

    11. Socrates MacSporran says:

      On the day DENNIS SKINNER voted to allow the Conservative Party to drive a coach and horses through parliamentary democracy, the Labour Party finally lost it.

      A period of quiet contemplation is now called for by the red Tories. Because, they have now lost the plot totally and have become irrelevant, at least as far as Scotland is concerned.

    12. Ken500 says:

      MSM ill researched nonsense. Tanking going down the tubes. The hysterical head-lines gets more desperate as they tank their industry. There is an alternative Press re aligning. The National on the whole is really great. Getting better all the time. Less Spaced nonsense. More main stream. A copy can’t be had after noon. A problem with distribution?

      @ Murray blog. If you need any more funds. Just say. Set up. Daily Mail mucked. On it’s last leg of debt. Brexit relocating to Dublin. Will have to pay EU tax? The irony, Express take over on the way out. Another one gone, another one down. Another one hits the dust. Good bye. Thanks to the Internet. The lying so called ‘libels’ MSM. So out of touch. They want their freedom of speech for themselves but not for anyone else. Delete and ban. Overpaid prima donnas. Wasting paper and squandering resources. Trying to take good folk down. Disgusting.

      Some people once sent a donation for Tommy Sheridan’s Defence. His lawyer set it back. Bizarre. So much for gratitude? He did manage to win. He should have been admonished, A perjury trial where the main witness commits perjury. It did bring Murdoch NI down. Tommy Sheridan still campaigning. Rock on Tommy Ace.

    13. Joemcg says:

      One wee fact the anti-Scot mclaren conveniently omits. Scotland is not an independent country so his non biased report is in effect dissing his beloved union. Yoons, a special kind of stoopid.

    14. Macart says:

      Here we go. The Scottish parliament and government are pants mainly because… something, something, reasons. Oh, and Scotland is shite.

      Remember folks, the meeja and the establishment parties are only being cruel to be kind. In fact people in general are forcing them to act in this fashion.

      Being told you’re rubbish, that your politics is rubbish and your democracy is eminently worthless is for your own good.

    15. gordoz says:

      Why do said academic servants of the UK hammer this rubbish, ‘because they can ¬!’ and the so-called Scottish media journos jump on the bandwagon (lazy, lazy, b’stards at best – complicit agents at worst), sanction and support / promote; which then gets gobbled up by even lazier or even more complicit BBC & STV to blurt out to the mindless strictly come bake for blighty masses who lap it up (50% of them anyway).

      See that’s how this works journos of Scotland who regulalry tune into WoS, WE ARE ONTO YOU, make no mistake.

      50% of the population would never engage with your corrupt processes.

    16. Macart says:

      Nearly forgot.

      Better Togetherness – The gift that keeps on giving.

    17. HandandShrimp says:

      I love the “pop will eat itself” way that the press, Labour, former Labour advisors all feed off one another to continually maintain the “Scotland is Shite” narrative.

      However, the juxtaposition of the words “brutally honest” and Baillie is undoubtedly funny.

      This is the very definition of fake news.

    18. heedtracker says:

      Its hard to imagine that BBC Scotland led tory attack propaganda on Scottish democracy could get more aggressive but this is week is clearly the next phase of red and blue tory Britnat rule. Brexit’s their great enabler, they are taking back what they rightfully own, the UK. And may god have mercy etc…

      Rule Britannia Tory hackdom is coming to get you, Scottish democracy.

    19. gordoz says:

      @Joemcg – Well said.

      Aye; I forgot to say that in my rant Joe – well said about hamstrung ‘Scotland the Province’ , being measured against free & Independent Nation states – mindless guff in our press. (by a so called academic & all ??)

      Mr McLaren has mucho form!

    20. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ David McCann

      Thanks for that link, David. That Bella article on McLaren and Armstrong, their advocacy of PFI/PPP and their connection to big corporate business is a belter. People should read it.

      Shower of…

      Link: http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2012/02/23/the-professor-the-think-tank-the-black-black-oil/

    21. Macart says:

      You want failed parliamentary systems?

      Readers, do not say you weren’t warned.

      https://archive.is/cGKwq

    22. galamcennalath says:

      ” …. the “study” is in fact just the work of a single person …. long-time serial Nat-basher and ex-UK government civil servant John McLaren …. former Scottish Labour policy adviser and member “

      An excellent piece of journalism from The Rev contrasting completely with what must rank as the definitive example of fake news from the Yoonitariat.

      Another day, another SNPBaaad / ScotlandBaaad story.

    23. scunner says:

      Perusing the paper stand at 8am I spotted the Express headline, thought “total gash” but didn’t realise its tendrils had spread to the others.

      As Robert Graham says above, it’s the “daily drip” effect. I expect it’ll crop up on Misreporting Scotland at teatime.

      I despair that maybe half the population meekly accept this tripe. To quote Irvine Welsh, we really are “The most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic trash…”

    24. Ken500 says:

      UK A population of 62.5Million. The claim 100,000 hard working migrants are keeping wages down. Deflating wages. A total nonsense. A numerical impossibility.

      The Tories and their cronies want out of the EU so they can continue tax evading and defrauding £Billions of public money. Increasing the debt. Total criminals.

      The EU is clamping down on tax evading. (big time). That is what Brexit lies are about. They will negotiate less rights for more money. Costing more. So they can take a massive cut. Increasing the wealth gap with less cohesion, happiness and equality. An inadequate economy.

    25. Clapper57 says:

      The only thing that’s SLIPPING is Ruth’s proclamation on WHO her new gang will show allegiance to……….with last night’s vote it is obvious her credibility has tanked in her assertion that her gang of new Scottish Tory MP’s would obey her and serve Scotland and NOT WM………..if anyone in Scotland is shocked or surprised that her gang voted with the government last night then I suggest they consider opening their ears and eyes to the reality that is Ruth and the Tory party.

      Her gang may have been elected in Scottish constituencies but their allegiance is to the party at HQ……the feeble excuses will have been written long before the vote last night and their friends in the media are once again complicit via their many deflection and justification tactics sprinkled with a dusting or rather avalanche of SNPBAD rhetoric.

      We all know only too well why there is so much ‘devolution bad’ currently being promoted …….a smokescreen for the great repeal bill’s negative impact and potential consequences for devolved parliaments……unless of course you are a DUP MP.

      I am running out of patience with those among us who are still too blind to see, some through ignorance and some willingly, the manipulation by the media and unionist politicians that has and is occurring in respect to our parliament and Scottish government. If these people, who vote for unionist parties, are prepared to allow unionist politicians to disregard their devolved parliament and indeed their democratic rights then when they eventually have to reap what they have sown, via their votes for a unionist party, may they suffer in silence because they need to learn THIS is what they voted for.

      I did not vote for the SNP merely to mitigate WM shit but instead voted for them to enable them to generate a better future and country for me and mine. Why should they, the SNP, have to redirect money and resources to mitigate the impact of a UK government whose draconian policies have created a society that excludes opportunity and hope for people like me, while propping up and benefiting those who are but self serving wealthy leeches who sacrifice ‘the many’ in order to remain part of ‘the few’.

      If ever the time had come for us to rise up as a nation then this is it……we can sink or swim…….that there is NOT more condemnation among the majority of Scots is frankly to our shame……..what is obvious is that in respect to the newly elected Scottish Tory MP’s one is certainly getting what one voted for….that is the union uber alles.

      Je Suis Europeen et Ecossais.

    26. Admiral says:

      Ken500 says:
      12 September, 2017 at 11:49 am
      UK A population of 62.5Million. The claim 100,000 hard working migrants are keeping wages down. Deflating wages. A total nonsense. A numerical impossibility.

      Does anyone seriously believe that the Tories want rid of immigrants because British business wants to increase the wages of British workers? Aye, right!

    27. This appears to be the unionists new tactic and line of attack here in Scotland, 10 years of SNP failures.

      Its a blatant attempt to keep SNP good news stories off the TV news and off the front pages of the newspapers.

      As well as to con or persuade people into believing that everything bad happening in Scotland, rising child poverty, austerity, housing crisis, education, mental health.

      Its all down to Scottish Government, and has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Westminster policies.

      This is a similar tactic they have used against the EU over the last 40 years.

    28. Training Day says:

      There can be no doubt left that the British establishment is attempting to first neuter and then close Holyrood (probably egged on by the direct rule enthusiasts in the May Government’s ‘arrangement’).

      Concerted and co-ordinated attacks on devolution from a propagandist media (is there left a single person employed in the Scottish MSM who merits the term ‘journalist’ rather than ‘stooge’ or ‘ventriloquist’s dummy’?); attempts to silence prominent voices in favour of Scottish self-determination; the ‘Law to remedy the distress of People and Reich’ passing through Westminster – this is all heading in one very scary, and very predictable, direction.

    29. Legerwood says:

      The Herald carried this story on its inside pages but it also carried a story on how Scotland was leading the way on “”progressive policies” for end of life care.

      The article was based on research by the University of Bath’s Institute for Policy Research – so not a one man band.
      http://www.bath.ac.uk/announcements/uk-ill-prepared-for-death-and-dying-warns-ipr-policy-brief/

      The report says that Scotland is leading the way when it comes to “progressive policies” that support citizens’ end of life care which the rest of the UK “would do well to emulate”.

      Was there not a recent Nuffield Trust report on the NHS which said the risk should follow Scotland’s lead when it came to various aspects of the NHS?

      So not complete sh*t then.

    30. Andrew B says:

      Usual crap from British nationalist press!
      By the way Stu the Dons are the best team in the world?

    31. Cloggins says:

      Are we all done complaining to and sympathising with eachother? Then get up and make sure the distribution trucks cannot leave the printing works tomorrow morning. For instance.

    32. dandy dons 1903 says:

      The mask of the British Nationalist is starting to slip to reveal its true xenophobic fascist face courtesy of Theresa Mays brexiteer tories and assorted nasty little englanders in the press and in society in general. Scotland needs away from this sh!tshow asap.

    33. vagabondo says:

      This McLaren manufactured story is a very obvious retaliation/spoiler to the BBC 4 Woman’s Hour voting Bishopbriggs as “The Best Place To Be A Woman” in Great Britain. This was trailed in the MSM, including Radio Scotland and formally announced this morning. Coincidence?

    34. I wonder if these people would be so insulting to Scotland and its people who vote for the SNP if we had an s.r.a. ??? You see they know they will have no comeback but with their continued insults and lies that could change or maybe that is what their agenda is ???

    35. scunner says:

      @ Cloggins

      Direct action is it? Storm Pacific Quay as well?
      Look how they reported a peaceful demo there. 95%+ Media control.

      Next you’ll be telling us “UDI – man the barricades!”

    36. Jim says:

      And in todays news, “Scotland is, once again, Shit”.

    37. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      It is the coordinated nature of this misinformation across all the media that establishes exactly what it is.

      It is time to coordinate a savage campaign against those responsible and make them think twice before they lend their names to these distortions.

      Well publicised derision is the best way – or perhaps inviting them to a public meeting to discus their “findings”

      Staring with John Mince McLaren.

      When a couple of big lies are widely exposed nothing they say carries any weight after that.

    38. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Should be “starting”, not “staring”

    39. Robert Peffers says:

      There is a word, a single word, a descriptive word that aptly describes the actions of the Westminster Establishment, the Westminster Unionist political parties and it results in the entire Westminster establishment controlled media outlets Scottish output.

      That one single word is:-

      DESPERATION.

      That one single word calls to my mind a quotation from Omar Khayam:-

      “The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
      Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
      Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
      Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.”

      Desperation forces people to take truly crazy, illogical and self destructive actions. It is the one most relevant factor in suicide attempts by human beings. Wow! And are not these unionists desperate now?

    40. Highland Wifie says:

      “May you live in interesting times” is a Chinese curse. I am in doubt about how interesting these times are and frankly it scares the hell out of me.
      The MSM are really upping the ante now and who knows where this will all end.

      Am trying to get through all Nana’s links but between just finding the time and the depressing effect its having on me it’s a struggle I can tell you. Why do these people hate their country so much?
      And as for members of parliament who are supposed to represent their constituents and then vote for the most anti democratic bill since .. Well since Henry VIII.
      Once again I am lost for words. It’s happening a lot recently.

    41. manandboy says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:

      “It is the coordinated nature of this misinformation across all the media that establishes exactly what it is.”

      It is State sponsored nationwide non-stop brainwashing. It is done because it works. It succeeds. It is effective. It keeps the ruling class in power. Just as it keeps Kim Jong Un in power in North Korea.

      However, most people in Scotland and the rest of the UK would pour scorn on the idea of being brainwashed by the British government. That’s because here in the UK we look down our noses at people from overseas countries including the Far-east, and because we think such a thing couldn’t happen here.

      I read only yesterday a comment from a Scotswoman who could not understand anyone voting for Independence under any circumstances.

      Resist the brainwashing British media. Vote SNP. Support Independence.

    42. David says:

      @ Robert Peffers

      As ex MI5 member Marie Machon has said – MI5 is also involved in deciding what gets printed and what doesnt.

      The media collectively set the tone that the establishment want – in this case that Scotland is shite, Scots need Westminster and that the Scottish parliament probably shouldn’t exist.

      Its then down to the gullibility of the people in general to see if that can stick and the agenda can be pushed a notch further forward.

      Unfortunately Scottish Unionists are the most intellectually crippled people I have ever come across. So the shite the establishment run media spouts DOES stick with a significant portion of the population.

    43. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Rev: In my capacity as a “horny-handed sub of toil” (great facebook goup), might I suggest, the headline on this thread ought really to be: “Making-up your own news”.

      Pedantry, an in-the-blood attribute of sub-editors.

    44. heedtracker says:

      The media collectively set the tone that the establishment want – in this case that Scotland is shite, Scots need Westminster and that the Scottish parliament probably shouldn’t exist.

      Its not new though. BBC Scotland has shat on Scotland for decades really, since the intro of tv in effect.

      Its all just much more out and open. Beeb gimps have no need to pretend to balanced and unbiased now, everyone knows they’re corrupt as fuck.

      They are changed by it all though. As much as the reprobates would like to, there’s no chance of BBC Scotland drama twerps making Rab C Nesbit 2, or is there:D

      Think of BBC Scotland as a parasite, feeding off of the host body, making the host unwell, feel like shit, weakening defences, lowering energy levels and so on. But like all parasites, they’re never actually killing the host, so far.

    45. Tatu3 says:

      These articles are all having a go at the SNP (our) government. What are our government going to do about these downright lies?

      Leaflets, leaflets, leaflets. IMO. No need for fancy expensive leaflets. Just LOTS of them, everywhere in Scotland. Stating the truth! And now!

      If someone was spreading lies about me and mine, I’d be doing everything within my power to prove them wrong. I would not sit back and accept the lies.

      I’d fight.

    46. Bill McLean says:

      People like McLaren and Baillie are much to pitied. In McLaren’s case there is a brain that has been deceived and sullied by British and Labour propaganda. Baillie appears to have no thought processes and can’t distinguish fact from her own propagandized fancy. They are doing the British bully’s work for it which may lead to decades of poverty and misery for our people – all to suit the deluded feelings of exceptionalism exhibited by the Tories and many of their followers. Labour in Scotland, and now clearly in England too, are a complete waste of time and playing into the Tories’ hands. God help us as I fear for the future as we have no way of countering this mass media campaign of denigration of Scotland aided by some of our own academics!

    47. Dr Jim says:

      Step right up folks, step right up for another “Some Arsehole says survey” proving beyond the doubt of a shadow that the SNP are really really Baad and that indeed any yes any other political party (providing they were Unionist) would be better depending on which newspaper you read

      This week it’s some guy 95% of people never ever heard of and who represents well, nobody, except the papers it’s printed in for the few quid he gets from whoever in the Labour party or Tories asked him to do it

      It’s funny isn’t it that these Unionist parties could get the doodles off their toilet paper put in the newspapers if they asked them to yet the Scottish government can’t get coverage of actual government business in those same papers which is supposed to be of actual interest to the public

      Scotland will remain Inglish property and we the newspapers and TV media will strive for that end till we die
      All Heil the Union and our glorious Inglish Massas, Scotland is here to serve and we will starve to death rather than give in to something better

      And they and we will, unless we stop them

    48. Cloggins says:

      You’re not telling them, instead you are telling eachother how bad it is. How can anyone in little Britain find out about the journalistic atrocities committed by the MSM and the BBC? London wants you to wring your hands in despair muttering “I told you so” and “ochaun there is nothing we can do” – and you oblige. The news where you are was specifically designed to keep that news away from where they are. The front pages of the MSM are different in Scotland because they do not want the English to know what is going on in the neighbouring country. And to tell you how bad you are.
      Cons and labs take turn in launching clay pigeons for you to shoot down, to keep you busy fuming. Never a single reply is read, all goes straight to the bin.
      Time to rethink the effectiveness of the delivery of the message….

    49. Jack Murphy says:

      OT.
      Brexit Statement by Mike Russell MSP in Scottish Parliament.

      Scottish Parliament TV.
      Statement commencing shortly.
      “Ministerial Statement: European Union Withdrawal Bill”.

      Chamber:
      http://tinyurl.com/yd8y6zyw

    50. Morgatron says:

      To be brutally honest , she needs to go on a diet.

    51. Nana says:

      O?T

      Coming up soon: @Feorlean updates the @ScotParl on the #EUwithdrawalbill and the Brexit power grab.

      https://www.scottishparliament.tv/

    52. One_Scot says:

      The reality of the situation is this. If we do not win the next Independence referendum, they will grind Scotland into the ground.

      Not really a great future to pass onto our children, is it.

    53. yesindyref2 says:

      Didn’t John McLaren stand as a Labour candidate in Edinburgh for the recent council elections?

    54. Fairliered says:

      My global wellbeing has been reduced by:
      Biased newspapers
      Biased BBC
      Increased sectarianism
      Increased number of Scottish Tory MPs
      Corrupt Scottish football authorities
      Anti democratic Westminster policies

      It will be increased by Independence

    55. Dan Huil says:

      Another example of why websites like WOS are essential. Meanwhile boycott the britnat press – I see the rise in britnat lies and desperation down to the decrease in britnat newspaper sales – and, most importantly, don’t pay the bbc tax.

    56. This is what really annoys and makes me angry about HQ, they need to have someone in place who can go on the offensive and expose these unionist lies for what they are.

    57. Tatu3 says:

      We here, on Wings, know the awfulness of what’s happening. It’s the folks out there who don’t read Wings or the other pro-Indy sites, who are in the dark.

      We desperately need to find a way, and an as instant a way as possible, to let them know what is happening.

      All this chat here between like minded pro-Indy supporters is great, but it doesn’t help, not really, in the greater scheme of things.

    58. Arbroath1320 says:

      Late to the party… as per usual but I’ve been doing a wee bit of thinking (dinnae fret folks I AM still taking the meds! 😀 ) outside the box. (My excuse and I’m sticking to it! 😉 )

      I’m wondering if all this stushie being “created” by the London controlled media is the unionist attempt to divert Scottish eyes away from what their (media) beloved monarch, no not the one in the huge cooncil hoose the ither wan, achieved in the house of Commons early this morning. What we know nothing aboot cannae harm us richt? 😀

      The only problem for the Control freaks in London is that news has still failed to reach them that here in Scotand we actually have a “new” concept as well as a “new” invention that helps keep some of us up to date and well informed of the TRUTH. These things I speak of are of course FREE SPEECH, FREE THOUGHT and something called the internetwebby thingy! 😀

    59. Legerwood says:

      On the subject of education and Scotland’s supposed slide down the rankings being due to N Sea oil slump – see the last clip in the Red’s piece, the one adorned by Jackie Baillie.

      This is a link to the Scottish Gov comprehensive report/analysis of the PISA scores including info on where Scotland stands relative to other countries:
      https://beta.gov.scot/publications/programme-international-student-assessment-pisa-2015-highlights-scotlands-results/pages/5/

      Some points to note: Between 2003 and 2006 the Maths PISA scores fell from 524 to 506 thereafter, 2009, 12, 15 the scores stabilised.

      Reading: 2003 to 2006 scores fell from 516 to 499 in subsequent test years they rose slightly then fell back again.

      Science: scores were more or less unchanged from 2003 until 2015 when they fell from 513 to 497, still above average. But in 2015 the average score also dropped so whatever was affecting Science seemed to be affecting a lot of countries.

      As you will no doubt have noticed some of the biggest falls in the PISA scores occurred under Labour. Strangely I don’t seem to remember much fuss being made of that.

      PISA testing is not without its critics as this article demonstrates.

      https://www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/long-read-does-pisa-really-tell-us-anything-useful-about-schools

    60. jfngw says:

      I believe that those in the know at PQ now refer to it as BBC Reporting Shiteland.

    61. ScottishPsyche says:

      While the SNP remain in power at Holyrood, every attempt will be made to show devolution as failing. Should any of the Unionist parties get into power they will be showered with sweeties and the SNP will be falsely accused of mismanagement and so on and repeat. Our disgusting supine media are colluding with every move.

      Holyrood will be allowed to exist only if it remains at the mercy of the Unionists, red and blue – like a choke collar on a dog, as it tries to get away the chain is pulled harder. We need to change our strategy and tactics soon. The Westminster system is rotten and trying to work within it is impossible. I am at a loss as to what to do but it is imperative that we act soon. We need to make this known internationally as our EU safeguards are going soon. Is there a UN route we could take?

    62. dakk says:

      Aw.Him again.

      Hauf John Curtice,hauf Neil Oliver wi’ a bad perm,an’ mibbee hauf Phil Spector.

      Where do the Yoons get these tossers.

    63. ScottishPsyche says:

      We need someone with the equivalent resources and drive of Gina Miller to take up our case.The Law Society of Scotland have spoken out about a power grab, surely there must be someone maybe like Jonathon Mitchell QC who has clout, and awareness of what is at stake?

    64. AAD says:

      The BBC news website has a new report from the Institute for Policy Research which says the UK is a postcode lottery in provision of care of dying children. However, it also reports that Scotland is leading the way in care provision and the rest of the UK should follow Scotland.

      I don’t suppose Unionists will be shouting about it in tomorrow’s newspapers. Morally bankrupt individuals, all of them.

    65. AAD says:

      Sorry, my post should have said palliative care for severely disabled children and children with severely life limiting disabilities.

    66. frogesque says:

      @Cloggins 2.06

      You raise a difficult point.

      One way is to engage in special interest sites that also have a political or serious comments section.

      My specific interests are gold panning and aurora/astronomy and, as a by product of that I inhabit a UK wide weather forum. Outside of weather, polite yet forcefully discussion takes place on a variety of topics including politics.

      I’m sure there are other interests such as fishing, farming, craftwork, performing arts etc. that also have at least a passing interests in funding, access, and the wider political implications.

      Simply bypass the EBC/MSM and get the message out not only to England but the wider world as well. Most folk are not rabid monsters and as long as you are polite the majority will listen, even if they don’t agree.

    67. Davie Oga says:

      Bill McLean says:
      12 September, 2017 at 2:01 pm
      People like McLaren and Baillie are much to pitied. In McLaren’s case there is a brain that has been deceived and sullied by British and Labour propaganda. Baillie appears to have no thought processes and can’t distinguish fact from her own propagandized fancy. They are doing the British bully’s work for it which may lead to decades of poverty and misery for our people – all to suit the deluded feelings of exceptionalism exhibited by the Tories and many of their followers.

      I disagree. They are the British bully. History will hold them to account for their lies and participation in the denigration of Scotland on behalf of a foreign master.

    68. Kat hamilton says:

      Paul Sinclair in usual ‘useless Scotland’ mode last night…lesley riddoch is a saint listening to his bile…he’s an antiquated diplodocus, who thinks he’s relevant or newsworthy when 50pc of The country doesn’t want, need or appreciate his negativity..the others can either cling to a bankrupt, rotting carcass of a union or try a fresh approach of self governance….it’s what normal sane nations do…

    69. Golfnut says:

      Funny how these stories just happen to surface at exactly the same time as events that portray the union in a bad light, or to be brutally honest, in a shit light. The vote in Westminster last night on Henry’s bill, GERS being discussed at Holyrood and off the course the visit from Barnier, the EU negotiator. Not entirely believable that it is just a coincidence.

      The other aspect of this on going charade that warms my heart, these Muppets expect a rejection of Henry’s bill by Holyrood, they expect a referendum.

    70. Arbroath1320 says:

      Funnily enough Golfnut I’ve just seen this on Twitter.

      Some Labourite called McDonald is apparently calling for amendments to protect Holyrood. No seriously he has apparently called for this. I guess he has never heard of supporting Scottish independence then. 😀

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJhyiZlXcAAfFQq.jpg

    71. Jack Murphy says:

      AAD said at 3:26pm:
      “…….. However, it also reports that Scotland is leading the way in care provision and the rest of the UK should follow Scotland.

      I don’t suppose Unionists will be shouting about it in tomorrow’s newspapers. Morally bankrupt individuals, all of them.”

      Here it is on the BBC UK site:

      http://archive.is/Tj60L

    72. Valerie says:

      @ jfngw 2.40

      Reporting Shiteland,that sums it up for the yoons. Hope you don’t mind if I steal that for Twitter?

      So, we still have to rely on Gina Miller, not that Corbyn firebrand, to ensure the Gov’t is held to account. Its now been announced the bribery deal with DUP HAS to get Parliamentary approval.

      A ‘travelling family’s in Lincolnshire, sentenced to 30 years among them, for running a slavery ring.

      WTAF? Who was protecting and colluding in this for 30 friggin years????

      The BRITISH Virgin Islands are sorted. BoJo has ensured two pallets of plywood have now been air dropped for the victims.

      What an actual shithole this country is.

      Inflation up by .3 in a month.

      Another Scot on Twitter saying they will seek Swedish citizenship when they survey the wreckage.

    73. Legerwood says:

      AAD says:
      12 September, 2017 at 3:26 pm
      “”The BBC news website has a new report from the Institute for Policy Research which says the UK is a postcode lottery in provision of care of dying children. However, it also reports that Scotland is leading the way in care provision and the rest of the UK should follow Scotland.

      I don’t suppose Unionists will be shouting about it in tomorrow’s newspapers. Morally bankrupt individuals, all of them.””
      ………………….

      The Herald has a long article about this on page 2 today.

      I referred to it in my post at 12.20 and gave a link to the University of Bath’s Institute of Policy Research who carried out the research which is quoted in the Herald article.

      Have not looked to see if any other media sources have mentioned it.

    74. ScottishPsyche says:

      I am so glad the Scottish Sun has withdrawn its ‘support’ for the SNP and will now go back to supporting the good old days of Yoon hegemony. No matter how wide its circulation no-one wants that endorsement.

      Remember the one party state mantra, anyone? That didn’t last long in Scotland but no one is saying a word against it in Westminster. The Tories with their flimsy grasp of power are manufacturing a Yoon Party state in Scotland and no one is batting an eyelid in the media.

    75. orri says:

      The problem with the so-called Henry the 8th Bill is it not only relies on a precedent that doesn’t exist in Scotland but, at the end of the day, bypasses the monarch and Royal Assent. In effect the Bill finally removes any remaining notion that the UK is a Constitutional Monarchy and declares it a Republic. Or rather an allegedly temporary oligarchy with the HoC given merely corrective powers to overturn bad legislation.

      Forcing such a change of where sovereignty lies onto Scotland is a chicken and egg kind of thing as it’s within the power of the First Minister to advise on the Royal Prerogative as far as devolved issues go. That includes withholding consent.

    76. colin alexander says:

      I have no interest in discussing or defending WM devolution or the SNP’s record as the so-called Scottish Govt.

      This is the UK and it has one sovereign parliament and one sovereign govt, led by Theresa May.

      Devolution is merely the administration of power on behalf of Westminster Govt.

      I want a sovereign parliament and a sovereign govt for Scotland.

    77. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      ScottishPsyche @ 14:55,

      See, there’s the rub. Gina Miller is a very brave and principled person, but she represents London financial interests so I would be surprised if she didn’t have plenty backers with deep pockets.

      What she has certainly done is take head-on these egregious BritNat assaults on democracy. And as a result can’t be ignored by the MSM. She commands attention.

      The main equivalent here was the Orkney Four’s challenge to Carmichael, which many (including legal types) thought would fizzle but in fact had legs and only lost on a technicality, and as a result put a dent in the Unionist smear campaign. Stu’s forthcoming challenge to Kez is rightly following-up on that, and hopefully will succeed, even if Kez is in effect a straw woman after her (non-coincidental?) resignation.

      But what about all these slanders upon Scotland? Or the trampling all over our rights by the unfolding Brexit process? Article 50 requires a constitutional process, yet no-one in Scotland seems prepared to say “this isn’t right” and demand redress in the courts. All the way to the ECJ if necessary. With all the consequent publicity.

      We have been expecting the SG to be less passive on that score, but apart from a little coat-tailing on the first legal challenge by Gina Miller and others, there has been nothing.

      We need more to catch people’s attention, and jolt all those PSB’s out of their illusion that we are all equals in this misbegotten Union.

      Maybe the SG intends to do this via Holyrood in the coming days, otherwise we will need to take a leaf from Gina Miller’s book and mount a crowdfunded challenge to this affront to Scotland’s rights and democracy in general.

    78. Petra says:

      @ Training Day says at 12:16 pm ….. ”There can be no doubt left that the British establishment is attempting to first neuter and then close Holyrood (probably egged on by the direct rule enthusiasts in the May Government’s ‘arrangement’). Concerted and co-ordinated attacks on devolution from a propagandist media (is there left a single person employed in the Scottish MSM who merits the term ‘journalist’ rather than ‘stooge’ or ‘ventriloquist’s dummy’?); attempts to silence prominent voices in favour of Scottish self-determination; the ‘Law to remedy the distress of People and Reich’ passing through Westminster – this is all heading in one very scary, and very predictable, direction.”

      That’s it in a nutshell TD. ‘Concerted and co-ordinated’ to include a MASS network of people / agencies over and above the MSM; the latter I’d imagine being supported financially by the UK Government to promote their agenda.

      We have to go all out NOW, become concerted and co-ordinated, to combat their lies, because there’s no doubt that hundreds of thousands of people in Scotland are being influenced by them. Most of us on here are well aware of the challenges that faced other countries in their battle to get Independence / rid themselves of an aggressor, and so on, whereby a key strategy that was used was pumping out propaganda in conjunction with shutting down their means of communication, such as circulation of newspapers. They were then left with no other recourse than to physically hand out leaflets and in doing so obtained their objective. To my mind this is the position that we find ourselves in now to get us over the 50% mark.

      Stu and Wings have done a fabulous job and have no doubt contributed GREATLY to the rise in support for Independence from 25% in 2013 to 45% by September 2014, however we all know that individuals disinterested in politics (and there are many), prior No voters and those that sit on the fence probably don’t visit this site at all. That tells me that we have to get out there and get relevant, influential information through their letterboxes (plus utilising placards, banners and posters).

      I noticed that Indyref2 mentioned recently that he had costed the SNP sending out leaflets which came in at around £200,000. He’ll correct me if I’m wrong. Last year, other than Mr and Mrs Weir’s donation / loan, the SNP raised a paltry £95,000. If people want the SNP to fund the delivery of leaflets they’ll have to join the party and / or start to donate. We also have ONE daily newspaper that’s struggling. ONE daily newspaper that we know won’t get any financial support from Westminster, so to my mind it would make sense, if you really want Independence, to start buying the newspaper and contribute ideas for improvement / pass on data from here, and so on. Improvements that they can subsequently make when more money comes in. You could also think of contacting the Head Office of stores that don’t sell the newspaper requesting that they do so.

      That then leads to US. Thousands of us all absolutely desperate to rid ourselves of the Westminster shackles around our ankles, handcuffs and chains around our necks. If we don’t do something soon (before we lose some of our online sites) they’ll be adding gags, blindfolds and ear plugs to their range of restraints. A number of people have proposed ideas for leaflets, such as listing SNP achievements on one side (percentage of control over powers etc) and a list of Westminster failures on the other side. If people are agreeable to the idea of leaflets, the content of the leaflets, etc, we could go ahead fund raise, get them delivered alongside coming up with new ideas for subsequent leaflets. One of course will no doubt be required to combat lies about the EU. I’ve heard that leaflets are being sent out in relation to this already. Dark money being used?

      If this is deemed the way to go it would be extremely helpful if someone could co-ordinate this from Stu (this would be ideal although I know that he’s got a lot on his plate – don’t hit me with hammers, lol), Inform Scotland or the Scottish Independence Convention (as examples).

      What do you think folks?

      ……………………………………………….

      Just to add that during the Holyrood debate this afternoon someone (didn’t get her name) stated that Westminster was planning to remove 111 powers from Holyrood. First time I’ve heard a figure being mentioned.

    79. orri says:

      @colin alexander

      That’s a total pile of crap.

      In Scotland the people are sovereign. That isn’t just some fanciful notion but a matter of law. To accept the unionist Westminster dictat of Westminster Supremacy is folly to say the least.

      If Westminster and the Unionist press had no doubts about the matter then there’d be no need to soften us up for the ending of Holyrood. Although that might have more to do with future international relations and their beloved seat on the UN security council.

      In Scotland any authority/sovereignty Westminster, Holyrood or the EU Parliament has derives from the elected representatives voted for by the people of Scotland.

      To deny that Holyrood holds any authority at all is to do the unionists work for them. Perhaps that’s your intent? Perhaps you’re genuine? In either case the result’s the same.

    80. yesindyref2 says:

      @Petra “I noticed that Indyref2 mentioned recently that he had costed the SNP sending out leaflets which came in at around £200,000. ”

      Hi Petra, I was thinking more of the Scottish Gvoernment doing this – Governments do spend money on Public Information.

    81. COLIN ALEXANDER says:

      @orri

      I agree the people of Scotland are sovereign. Absolutely.

      However, we do not have a sovereign parliament or sovereign govt.

      My proof of this is the Supreme Court’s legal ruling that the Sewel Convention is legally worthless.

      WM can take any administrative powers off Holyrood any time it wants to. It can close it down if it wants to.

      Aye the people of Scotland are sovereign, but we are a subjugated people.

      Devolution is partly how we are subjugated.

      Devolution is WM power.

    82. One_Scot says:

      GTF with the capitals will you.

    83. CameronB Brodie says:

      That’s bad science supporting scientific racism, that is. Subjective, quantitative assessments give a poor indication of objective, qualitative experience. This is simply cultural imperialism in action.

    84. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Petra @ 16:29,

      I think it’s a basically sound idea. Since there are a whole lot of printers out there attached to PCs, in principle it could even be largely self-funding, if a bunch of people handing out leaflets could just chip in for the cost of the paper plus ink/toner.

      It would be up to the SG to publish a leaflet reviewing progress since the (re-)establishment of the Scottish Parliament, and it could quite legitimately do so as a public service on an anniversary, though no doubt the usual suspects would object.

      I believe that any leaflets the yes movement distribute should be more proactive, and nothing better than a Cris Cairns’-type cartoon rather than close-argued text. A visual image that makes people laugh can be far more effective in putting a wedge into that crack. Loads of political text like election leaflets, I fear, will just get binned, not read.

      Though having said that, I have also contemplated a repro of one or other WGD article, which he is quite happy to happen (I’ve asked him). They are funny reads as well as being very effective.

      Oh, and a reference to one or two good websites like WoS and WGD.

    85. Swiss Perspective says:

      Well, maybe Scotland is failing. Desperate times require desperate measures. To put it into perspective, the list is headed by two, small, confident and independent nations. Just maybe that is what Scotland must try next.

    86. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      me @ 17:02,

      That should of course be Chris Cairns. Apologies all round for the typo.

    87. Tatu3 says:

      If someone was able to produce the information for leaflets, in say A5 (or A4 if needed) format, that we as individuals could access and print off on our home printers. As many as we thought we personally could distribute.

      Maybe these leaflet templates could also be shared electronically via Facebook etc?

      I don’t know enough about computers to know if this was doable, but imagine someone here does.

    88. Sarah says:

      Someone BTL recently [can’t remember who] asked “what is the point of sending SNP MPs to Westminster?”.

      If we’d had 56 there yesterday then the Great Repeal Bill would have failed.

      @Petra, RJS and others: yes, cartoon and postcard single-issue leaflets and billboards would really catch the eye of the wider public. Billboards especially. I intend to suggest on Mobilise that SNP form a billboard-owning company so they can get the messages out.

    89. Meg merrilees says:

      Been reading up the reports from Holyrood today on Mike Russell’s stance on the Great Repeal Bill.

      reading between the lines I think there might be a tiny breeze of change beginning to stir the air at Holyrood…
      Jackson Carlow has announced he wants to have talks with Russell to see if there is some way the two parties could agree on a way forward re the bill and that Doyen of Liberalism, Tavish Scott has asked the UK gov to state that what is devolved remains devolved.

      Methinks they are beginning to see the writing ion the wall for their cushy jobs at Holyrood.

    90. yesindyref2 says:

      However, we do not have a sovereign parliament or sovereign govt.

      My proof of this is the Supreme Court’s legal ruling that the Sewel Convention is legally worthless.

      No, the UKSC ruling doesn’t prove Holyrood isn’t sovereign, all it proves is that the UK Parliament does not have to ask Holyrood for a Legislative Consent Motion to be passed according to the Sewel Convention..

    91. Hamish100 says:

      Swiss

      Yip we can be at the top but we need to be independent of Westminster

    92. Hamish100 says:

      ……… and truly independent minded individuals rather than the slovenly no men and women who detest Scotland

    93. Meindevon says:

      Ok you know who has (in one comment) changed the thread from the Unionist media to sovereignty.

      Is this going to be another article that I skip through in minutes trying to avoid his comments and then the replies and possibly miss good informative stuff?

      God I hope not.

      The Rev’s rules are ‘Don’t reply’.

      Anyway, I’m confident the Scots people who aren’t keen on independence and are not seeing the dire straights and doom and gloom in their daily lives must be beginning to see these articles for what they are. Folk working in these areas of unionist doom must surely be getting sick of being rubbished. Another few months of Brexit gloom and I’m confident the tide will turn.

      If it doesn’t and polls show less wanting Indy then it might possibly never happen. If not now with this clusterwhatsit in charge at Westminster then I fear it won’t ever happen. And that will be catastrophic for Scotland.

    94. Robert Peffers says:

      @David says: 12 September, 2017 at 1:37 pm:

      “As ex MI5 member Marie Machon has said – MI5 is also involved in deciding what gets printed and what doesnt.”

      I believe it is something that runs through the entire Westminster Establishment and this can be seen throughout all Civil Service, Ministries, Police Forces, Security Services and Armed Forces. A form of the English Language with certain terms and use of words seems indeed to have a central theme.

      Mind you a similar thing runs through such organisations as the Trade Unions. Matter of fact it was while shop Stewarding that the phenomenon first came to my notice. I have the gift of being able to keep a dead pan, straight face when pulling the most outrageous piss-takes.

      At joint union meetings of all trades I noticed they all seemed to pick up on the same daft expressions, seemingly imagining then to be ultra clever.

      At one Joint Shipbuilding/Ship Refitting/Ship Repair Union conference, I was quite tired of hearing such oft repeated stock phrase as, “At the end of the day”, when a simple use of the word, “later”, could suffice.

      When the chairperson was summing up and used the stock phrase, “At this precise point in time”, for the umpteenth time.

      I interrupted him with, “Excuse me Mr Chairman, but do you mean, ‘now’, or do you mean, ‘now, at the end of the day’?

      Anyway I thereafter noticed the same trends of stock phrases and word combinations featured throughout such organisations. I’m not sure if this is due to affectation or a simply infection but it all seems to stem from a central source then spread outwards downwards.

      How many independence supporters adopt the fake term, “Brexit”, when there can be no such thing as Britain exiting the EU. The official member state is only the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and there are four other legislative bodies in Britain, or The British Isles, that Westminster doesn’t have the legal powers to legislate for them.

      If it comes to pass it cannot be a Brexit and may yet not even be a UKExit. Yet the term, “Brexit”, has been washed into our brains.

    95. Capella says:

      From Stu’s twitter – a million Catalunyans singing:
      https://twitter.com/JethartJinj/status/907626432129617921

    96. Arbroath1320 says:

      Ignoring the Tories, mainly because they only ever do what’s in their own self interested interests, could we perhaps be begining to see the first faint glimses of what a truly Liberal Lib Dem really looks like? 😉

      What about Labour? After wee Lewis McDonald “begging” for amendments to be accepted to protect Holyrood could we even be begining to see the first tentative glimpses of what Labour might look like in 100 years or so when they finally realise what independence for Scotland is all about? 😀

    97. Meg merrilees says:

      Let’s hope Gina Miller’s challenge to the DUP bribe gains momentum, and if Sinn Fein decided to cross ‘the Pond’… how different things might be.

      I think I would travel to London to cheer them in.

    98. David McDowell says:

      Tatu3@1:54 pm
      “What are our government going to do about these downright lies?”

      On the basis of all past experience the answer to that appears to be “sweet FA”!

    99. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Meindevon @ 17:24,

      (Right you are, we don’t need another outing of Alexander’s Ragtime Band.)

      Back on topic, I’m beginning to wonder what toll these media lies must be taking on all those poor churnalists, who must realise the total guff that they are spewing.

      I mean, some are complete signed-up BritNat tossers, but they can’t all be such complete yoonatics. Having to produce all this depressive negativity to serve their master’s will while having to endure a growing sinking feeling that their names are going to be mud after indy. The tossers will then all decamp to their beloved Inglind (where they will be shunned as useless castoffs), but the others will probably need to have some kind of therapy!

    100. frogesque says:

      @Sarah 5.13

      Actually 58 of 59 Scottish s voted against the Bill so it wouldn’t have made a bit of difference.

      Fluffy and only Fluffy voted for it.

    101. Arthur thomson says:

      The people who write and disseminate this stuff care absolutely zero for the wellbeing of others. They lie and deceive and treat others as pawns in their grubby game of acquiring and exercising power. They play out on the public stage what their supporters and admirers – the gutless and the gormless – would do if only they had the bottle.

      Jeremy Corbyn and the Scottish left are lapping up this help that they are getting from the media. They are no better than the Tories. They are working together to undermine democracy and truth.

      There is no excuse for anyone in Scotland supporting these people and their lies. There is even less excuse for those who are lining up to take on the mantles of Brown, Darling, Robertson etc. in re-establishing the British establishment in Scotland. Yet another parcel of deceitful, egotistical rogues.

    102. yesindyref2 says:

      @Meindevon
      Yes I know, but the misinformation has been going on for days. The other side has FUD – Fear Uncertainty Doubt. Our best answer is to Facts Actuality Reality and Truth in their faces.

    103. Cactus says:

      It’s six oh clock.

    104. winifred mccartney says:

      What about some of Chris Cairns cartoons printed A4 size and stuck on the back or side window of cars – would be well read and they are worth a thousand words.

    105. Cactus says:

      And on this evenings news…

    106. Cactus says:

      Tonights headline…

      Aweright n welcome tae ye Michael Thomas Fadian ~
      Comment numero uno.

      Excellent!

      Viva C.

      Si.

    107. Macart says:

      Probably worth mentioning that ‘CALM’ is the watchword and order of the day. The crap we see in the pieces highlighted above the line is only going to get worse.

      Provocation, misinformation, baiting and actively undermining is going to go up to eleven from now on in. We’re going to be prodded and pushed on a daily basis. The aim will be to fragment, divide and demoralize the YES movement. It’s also a safe bet that the provocation will be aimed at eliciting a response, the more extreme and ill judged the better.

      yesindyref2 is right on the button. F.A.R.T. in their faces.

      Facts – Actuality – Reality and Truth. If you’re angry? Make sure it’s a cold and determined anger. The heated stuff only serves their purpose. Measured response and careful dissection followed by both derision and possibly yer akchul fart.

      Just sayin’.

    108. meg merrilees says:

      Frogesque

      More than Fluffy ( Scottish MP’s )voted for the Repeal Bill last night:

      Andrew Bowie (Conservative – West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
      Colin Clark (Conservative – Gordon)
      David Duguid (Conservative – Banff and Buchan)
      Luke Graham (Conservative – Ochil and South Perthshire)
      Bill Grant (Conservative – Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
      Kirstene Hair (Conservative – Angus)
      Alister Jack (Conservative – Dumfries and Galloway)
      Stephen Kerr (Conservative – Stirling)
      John Lamont (Conservative – Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
      Paul Masterton (Conservative – East Renfrewshire)
      David Mundell (Conservative – Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale)
      Douglas Ross (Conservative – Moray)
      Ross Thomson (Conservative – Aberdeen South)

      All 13 Tory tractors should hang their heads in shame. They have knowingly voted against Svotland’s best interests and considering the areas they represent have compromised the future of Farming and Fishing in Scotland.

      Furthermore, Stephen Kerr, MP Stirling – majority of 148, has voted for the Bill yet he represents the area of Scotland which had the 4th highest Remain vote.

    109. John de Soulis says:

      If the 20 labour who abstained or voted for the bill, had instead voted against it, the bill would have been defeated.

      So once again labour do the torys dirty work for them.

      326 for : 290 against

      Voted with the torys

      Ronnie Campbell
      Frank Field
      Kate Hoey
      Kelvin Hopkins
      John Mann
      Dennis Skinner
      Graham Stringer

      Abstained

      Ian Austin
      Kevin Barron
      David Crausby
      Caroline Flint
      Yvonne Fovargue
      David Hanson
      Helen Jones
      Kevan Jones
      Gerard Killen
      Madeleine Moon
      John Spellar
      Anna Turley
      Derek Twigg

    110. Colin Alexander says:

      @yesindyref2

      Re Supreme Court ruling on Sewel.

      And what’s the effect of that in practical terms? You missed out that bit:

      it means WM can legislate on devolved matters without the requirement to obtain any permission from Holyrood or even ask HR’s views.

      Which means WM is the sovereign parliament and Holyrood is a subservient Mickey Mouse parliament.

    111. John de Soulis says:

      Oops, 20 labour “mps”

    112. frogesque says:

      @ ,Meg Merrilee’s

      I stand corrected, should know better than to rely on a D. Record headline.

      Hangs head in shame and stands in corner.

    113. meg merrilees says:

      Frogesque:

      Not blaming you, a good opportunity to post the ‘Roll of Shame’.

      Maybe a timely letter to the D. Record pointing out their error might not be amiss. Can’t have them mislaying the public, can we?

    114. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      John de Soulis @ 18:31,

      One wonders what’s the point of any MP who abstains. For all the effect they have, they might as well not exist. Being paid by their constitutents to do f-all?

      And all in direct contradiction to a Labour three-line whip.

      Seems Jeremy the Messiah can’t even persuade some of his own paid-up party hacks to follow him!

      Yet there are still deluded fools people in Scotland who seriously think he’s going to be their saviour.

    115. Iain says:

      The so called msm, in the words of Bruce Springsteen
      “What is it good for, absolutely nothing ”
      It continues its dive to oblivion.
      It won’t be missed.

    116. yesindyref2 says:

      And what’s the effect of that in practical terms? You missed out that bit:

      No, I missed out nothing. The UKSC ruling is what it is, no more and no less. It ruled on a specific, not a general. That’s what courts do.

      “Practical terms” is assertion, argument, debate, conjucture, no more than that, until THAT is ruled on in court, the court that has jurisdiction over whatever is involved. And that’s that, that’s nor just wind, that’s FART.

    117. ben madigan says:

      @ Meg merrilees who said:
      12 September, 2017 at 5:31 pm
      “Let’s hope Gina Miller’s challenge to the DUP bribe gains momentum”

      It’s not Gina Miller’s challenge as far as I know (unless she has set up another one)

      It’s Northern Ireland’s Green party politician Ciaran McClean who says the pact breaches impartiality obligation in Good Friday agreement, and the Bribery Act.

      Ciaran McClean is the son of one of the founders of Northern Ireland’s civil rights movement, Paddy Joe McClean.

      The hearing is on Oct 26th

      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2017/09/11/scottish-parliament-vs-ni-stormont-assembly/

    118. yesindyref2 says:

      What the UKSC ruling did do, is prove beyond a doubt that Government is subject to Law.

    119. Robert Peffers says:

      @Tatu3 says: 12 September, 2017 at 1:54 pm:

      “Leaflets, leaflets, leaflets. IMO. No need for fancy expensive leaflets. Just LOTS of them, everywhere in Scotland. Stating the truth! And now!”

      Well no, TaTu3 – for another name for leaflets is, “Waste Paper”.

      Whether posted through letter boxes by the postie, or stuffed thereof by volunteers the vast majority instantly, without being read, goes in the Waste Paper Bin.

      Try handing them out in the street and you will see people take them and put them unread in the bin or, more likely on the ground.

      The job of taking the truth to the Yoons is yours, mine and every other indy supporter who is able to talk. If every indy supporter convinced just one non-supporter each, we would be independent now.

      “If someone was spreading lies about me and mine, I’d be doing everything within my power to prove them wrong. I would not sit back and accept the lies.”

      Thing is if someone spread lies about you or yours the law would be on your side but when the ones spreading lies about you and yours is the law you are a wee bittie handicapped. Unless, of course you are the SNP. In that case some, who claim to be your own support, will be helping your enemies to lie about you and accusing you of being in the wrong.
      I’d fight.

    120. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Robert J Sutherland U mean like this .

      https://www.facebook.com/will.glen.338/posts/467545763628409

      Queen of Knaves .

    121. ben madigan says:

      @Meg merrilees says:
      12 September, 2017 at 5:31 pm
      if Sinn Fein decided to cross ‘the Pond’… how different things might be.

      Sinn Fein will never “cross the pond”.
      Their MPs are elected on an abstentionist ticket and always have been. SF voters know and accept this. Until and unlesss policy is changed in an Ard Feis, SF MPs will continue to absent themselves from Westminster.

      As an all-ireland republican party, SF is not interested in contributing to british politics or taking an oath to the Queen etc.Broadly speaking, they want no British interference in Irish affairs and do not want or intend to interfere in British affairs

      In the last GE no SDLP candidates (who do take their seats were returned to Westminster ) which shows growing support for SF’s abstentionist policy

      One final point – if by any stretch of the imagination SF MPs were to take their seats in Westminster, their numbers are so low as to make absolutely no difference in voting on anything.

    122. Robert Peffers says:

      @Tatu3 says: 12 September, 2017 at 2:29 pm:

      ” … All this chat here between like minded pro-Indy supporters is great, but it doesn’t help, not really, in the greater scheme of things.”

      Sorry, Tatu3, but that is not the raisons d’être of Wings.

      The raisons d’être is exactly to talk to readers and commenters of Wings for it is mainly intended to inform and educate ourselves and thus to arm each other with the truth. Thus in order for well informed Wingers to be able to inform those who would never, of their own free will, read Wings with a view of becoming an indy supporter.

      Then, well informed Wingers have the answers to use when speaking with unionists. however, read Wings for a while and you will come across more than a few here who are ultra critical of the SNP, as both a political party and a Scottish government, and these ones will be actively attempting to also belittle Wingers at every opportunity.

      I say again it is not the job of Wings to convert non-believers for the only non-believers who read or comment on Wings are here to disrupt threads or preach against independence.

    123. Robert Graham says:

      A bit o/t – Just watched the archived debate from Hollyrood re the EU withdrawal bill,
      This debate shows that members can sometimes act and speak like adults , despite a few wobbles from a few Tory party members,
      If the parliament can see the obvious danger that presents itself in last nights vote, there was cross party agreement even the Tory members mostly agreed Hollyrood must be protected, This gives the lie to fluffys insitance powers will not be removed , despite his assurances The members in the chamber excluding obviously the Tories agreed his assurances were suspect and agreed to back the SNPs defence .
      I just hope this isn’t an ambush, as has been seen on a few occasions, are you with us ? , and when they turn round the support has vanished, The recently departed Kezia was involved in a few of these desertions.
      Maybe there is hope , at least when the future of our parliament is threatened , who knows .

    124. ben madigan says:

      @tatu who wrote “If someone was able to produce the information for leaflets, in say A5 (or A4 if needed) format, that we as individuals could access and print off on our home printers. As many as we thought we personally could distribute”.

      It would just take one or two Independence supporters per street to do an excellent job in their area.

      If Chris doesn’t object I am sure his cartoons on Wings could be expanded to fill a page and printed out in the same way – to be put through letter boxes and pinned into car windows.If Chris does object – other cartoons and slogans are available on the internet.

      Independistas don’t need to wait for official leaflets – use whatever SNP, Yes material you like.
      Print it out and distribute it.
      Make up your own slogans and assemble material supporting Independence
      Add links to Independence supporting sites and local activity centres etc
      Do It Now.
      Add “official” leaflets whenever they see the light of day

      Costs to the activist:

      1) Intellectual – Thinking time (about what material to select) and thought-implementing time.Problem solving – how can I???Intellectual costs are unquantifiable

      2) Material – Paper, ink, toner, time going out once or twice a week to push the leaflets through letter boxes in his/her street.
      Material costs will obviously depend on the number of houses/flats in the street.

      Counteracting UK propaganda can be done – if we want to

    125. Kenneth McDougall says:

      Also this biased individual is showing yet again Scotland’s limitations within the uk….. all of the other countries that really matter and are doing well are sovereign independent states with full control over all levers of power, such as economic. Scotland is supposed to compete with these nations with a ball and chain on and impeded in almost every way that matters and could conceivably make any difference. One day we will see what an independent Scotland can do and only then can we be really judged or measured against other nations on a kevel playing field. And it is laughable that this report was produced by a single biased unionist and rather annoying person !

    126. Shinty says:

      Methinks they are beginning to see the writing ion the wall for their cushy jobs at Holyrood.


      Wouldn’t that be grand, a parliament working together for the betterment of Scotland and it’s people.

    127. Shinty says:

      its even.

    128. Robert Peffers says:

      @David McDowell says: 12 September, 2017 at 5:32 pm:

      ” … On the basis of all past experience the answer to that appears to be “sweet FA”!”

      Aye! David and then there are the misinformed numpties who claim the SNP, (The Scottish Government), do nothing about it.

      Now let me state right now I am, in this instance, meaning YOU.

      Yesterday I posted several cites to SG and SNP websites that not only tell the actual truth but do indeed fight back.

      So why are YOU using information you gained from the unionist parties and the anti-Scottish MSM and Westminster financed and controlled state broadcasters to claim the SNP/SG are doing nothing.

      When did you last read, for examples:-

      https://www.snp.org/

      https://www.snp.org/manifesto

      https://www.snp.org/updates

      https://www.snp.org/your_team

      https://www.snp.org/policybase

      Just what is your REAL motive behind your claim the SNP is doing nothing? The evidence of your post here on Wings indicates it is to discredit the SNP and Scottish Government and, by implication, every single voter who voted them into power. Are you perhaps Rock, Colin Alexander or one of the others who falsely claim to support independence but do nothing whatsoever that supports that claim.

    129. Bob p says:

      If Scotland is so shite under westminsters watch. All the more reason to get out of this scabby one-sided dictatorial union.

    130. ronnie anderson says:

      Why do some on here jump to conclusions re the mooth music coming from Slab/Tories/Libs on todays discussion on the Brexit vote last night , please get it into your heads there is only one party talking up for Scotland ONE , the rest are mooth music who twist & turn like the cock on the weather vein .

      They c*nts cant be trusted .

    131. Rock says:

      “Today’s papers all report, with varying degrees of prominence and glee, this “story”:”

      Would we expect anything better from the unionist rags?

      But how did the “independence supporting” The National report it?

    132. Cactus says:

      Let’s do this Glasgow, let us do this Scotland.

      Third anniversary gig14 to 17..

      Digital Countdown clock:
      4 days to go.

      Be big.

      Over to Paula with the weather…

    133. ScottishPsyche says:

      Regarding getting information out. I’m a bit dubious about leaflets as well. The Billboards I feel were a good idea but need to broaden their scope. Broadcast media is our enemy with the hold they have over what they omit and distort.

      Can you buy Party Political Broadcast slots out with an election? A short broadcast film outlining what is at stake might be worth doing saying categorically what is devolved and what is retained.

      Is it possible to form a Party for information purposes only?

    134. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      ronnie anderson @ 19:12,

      Heh, heh. That about sums it up, Ronnie.

      @ 20:06,

      As to Holyrood, if the deal they are all willing to get behind is no more than a pathetic deal with London to get “teensy-weensy more devo within the UK” in return for signing-off on Brexit, we will all pay for their supping with the devil.

      They will have sold us another leaky boat and left us up doo-doo creek with no means of propulsion.

    135. Sarah says:

      @frogesque 6.36 p.m.: don’t worry about your mistake – I’ve had to slink away before now!

      I forgot to say that the Brains family justgiving fundraiser has reached £5050 – minimum needed is £7000 and 3 hours to go….it’s a bad time to be fundraising just now.

    136. Valerie says:

      Hope this works. It’s the full submission from Scotgov to UK govt in response to EU Withdrawal.

      Lengthy document.

      https://t.co/r4DUj2lvIm

    137. Rock says:

      orri,

      “In Scotland the people are sovereign. That isn’t just some fanciful notion but a matter of law.”

      The “plebs” of Scotland have never been “sovereign” in practice.

      The document that claims they are is not worth the paper it was written on. The “plebs” were little more than slaves at the time of its writing.

      The Scottish justice system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low.

      Any “matter of law” can never be in favour of the “plebs”.

      Pretendy “sovereign” Scots cannot and will not hold a second independence referendum without the blessings of Saint Theresa of England and Wales.

      Anyone who wants to attack me should do so only after Nicola has defied Saint Theresa and held a second independence referendum.

    138. yesindyref2 says:

      But how did the “independence supporting” The National report it?

      No problem you can find out yourself, you can subscribe for just £1.74 a week – or buy it at dood newsagents unless Unionists hide it!

      http://www.thenational.scot/

      It’s a great read.

    139. Rock says:

      The only political power pretendy “sovereign” Scots have is the right to vote if and when someone calls an election.

      They cannot recall their elected representatives even when the latter have broken all their election promises.

      Or does anyone know how to make Saint Ruth’s Scottish Tory MPs accountable to the folks who elected them, before the next election?

    140. Robert Graham says:

      Eh Rock is there a Queue , and do we take a ticket ?

      Just asking.

    141. yesindyref2 says:

      Any “matter of law” can never be in favour of the “plebs”.

      In the case of the UK Government appeal against Gina Miller, the court found in favour of the pleb – Gina Miller.

      That’s a F.A.R.T. in your general direction.

    142. Rock says:

      John de Soulis,

      “If the 20 labour who abstained or voted for the bill, had instead voted against it, the bill would have been defeated.”

      Abstaining from votes so that controversial Tory laws pass has been the biggest principle of Labour MPs for many years.

      Any other “principle(s)” they might have is/are overided by the biggest principle.

    143. Bob Millar says:

      Robert Peffers 7.11

      Has the uselessness of leaflets been proved? It may well be the case during elections when folk are overwhelmed with leaflets. But I would imagine that a fair proportion of the people we need to convince ( i.e. older with some spare time ) might well read a leaflet which came outwith elections.

    144. Colin Alexander says:

      yesindyref2 said: “What the UKSC ruling did do, is prove beyond a doubt that Government is subject to Law.”

      The problem there is the UK Govt often makes the law to suit themselves.

      Scotland always has a small fraction of MPs at WM and the SNP even less than that.

      ———————————–

      When the courts ruled “Work For Your Benefits” sanctions against benefit claimants were unlawful, the Red Tories helped the Tory Govt amend the law to make it legal and, as far as I know, those sanctioned were never refunded the stolen money.

    145. yesindyref2 says:

      @Bob Millar

      “Free Scottish Government Prize Draw

      Enter online at inform.gov.scot/prizedraw1/
      Entrants will need to answer 3 questions on reserved v devolved powers and percentages, but one answer is on this leaflet, and for the other 2 random ones from 100 questions, the answers are available online at info.gov.scot/blahblah. (2 months later) all successful entrants will be entered into a draw to be made by (no idea). 3 prizes of £10,000 each, and a personal tour round Holyrood all expenses paid.”

      That might make people read the leaflet!

    146. yesindyref2 says:

      as far as I know

      And there’s the problem, no F.A.R.T., no research done, no F no A no R no T, and what do we get? Diddly-squit, paid a penny and didn’t even.

    147. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Bob Millar @ 20:54,

      I would say it all depends on what the leaflet contains. If all it said was “a free tenner if you phone this number and say you support independence, I’m sure that a great many people would read it! =grin=

      I thought of putting one out headed in bold “FRAUD WARNING!”. I think a lot of people would start to read something like that as well. Catch their attention, proceed to give them a brief explanation of some typical con tricks, then end by simply saying something like “well, look around, because that is exactly what’s being done to Scotland right now”.

      RP is right about conventional party political leaflets. At any time too, not just during an election. They are hackneyed and predictable.

      Humour is the key, I claim. If you provide people with something that gives them a laugh, even if they are neutrals or Unionists, it gets traction. The very people you need to get traction with. Do it regularly and people might even begin to look forward to receiving them.

    148. yesindyref2 says:

      @RJS
      Maybe the leaflet should have the headline “FART”.

    149. Breeks says:

      Valerie says:
      12 September, 2017 at 8:31 pm
      “Hope this works. It’s the full submission from Scotgov to UK govt in response to EU Withdrawal.

      Lengthy document.

      https://t.co/r4DUj2lvIm“.

      I’m raging at that Valerie. Unless I missed it, not a mention of Scottish sovereignty, just mealy mouthed acceptance of Brexit, and lame, supine “making the best of it”.

      FFS, get off your knees and defend our fecking sovereignty. Stand up for what the sovereign people of Scotland decided to do. – Stay in the EU! Stop snivelling to Westminster about the small print of THEIR Brexit catastrophe, and show some backbone holding the line on OUR sovereignty.

    150. Colin Alexander says:

      @yesindyref2

      If you stopped farting for a minute, you’d realise the point is that the UK Govt / WM may be subject to the law, but it’s them that make the law so they often make it or change it to suit themselves.

      So, what happens if the FM announces indyref2 along the timeframe you suggest and Mrs May says no?

    151. Robert Peffers says:

      I never thought I’d see the day that Wingers would need to be reminded that they are foot soldiers of the independence movement.

      It goes without saying that they should know that bleating like the unionists that the SNP/SG are doing nothing is exactly the same as what the BBC and other Westminster controlled broadcasters and dead tree publishers and unionist parties do on a 24/7/365 basis.

      Are the Wingers falling for the Westminster propaganda?

      And no, that is not a rhetorical question – tell us your views right here and right now on wings.

      The SNP/SG are NOT doing nothing for there is a Holyrood Government webpage :-

      http://www.parliament.scot/

      that site includes live video coverage:-

      https://www.scottishparliament.tv/

      of both the debating chamber and all committee room meetings.

      The SNP as a party also have their own website giving the truth and not the biased versions of happenings and the video and audio edited versions of such liars as Brian Taylor, Gary Robertson and Nick Robinson and their likes.

      Nor does it include the output of the Westminster controlled broadcasting in the United Kingdom. All broadcasting is licenced to broadcast by the Westminster Government. Only the BBC, though, is directly funded by Westminster. The viewers DO NOT pay the BBC – they pay a licences fee to the government to be allowed to watch live broadcasts on any and all forms of live video broadcasts – including the iPlayer.

      If then any Winger claims that the SNP are doing nothing they are either liars who know the truth or sadly misinformed numpties who are listening, viewing and reading only the Westminster controlled propaganda outlets.

      The above links are just a few cites to truth and genuine information sources that they just refuse to bother reading. They could also spread the information to others that there is official SNP/SG truth out there to be read, listened to and watched. Learn to cut and paste links of text, audio and video.
      You are foot soldiers – get foot slogging.

      What is more as Wingers they make little sense in complaining for as Wingers they have the capacity to cut & paste the information in those websites and many could print them out and do what they are demanding others should do – print out the truth and distribute it.

      Do not blame the SNP or the SG for your own failings.

      If you want the truth to get out to the voters then get on with it instead of complaining that the SNP should do more. In many cases the complainers are actual SNP members. That means, unlike other parties, they are THE SNP.

    152. jfngw says:

      @John de Soulis

      The bill would not have been defeated if these 20 Labour MPs had voted against it, the result would have been 319 for to 310 against. It was really carried by the DUP. Although adding these 326+290+13 only gives 629, adding the 7 SF and speaker still leaves 13 short of 650. Who else didn’t vote?

    153. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @ Rock –

      Keep going.

      You and your ilk are just sharpening the appetite for independence.

      The scum who helped drive one of our dear friends to a suicide attempt use the same tactics as you and CA: belittle, demean, undermine, goad, taunt…relentlessly. Many of us have already had it via the education system/the MSM and our own upbringing – you can’t do anything to those who’ve survived thus far.

      So, keep going, you worthless, anonymous spineless, humourless fucking wank-sap. Every comment you’ve ever posted here just made us stronger, so I look forward to many more of them.

    154. Rock says:

      yesindyref2,

      “In the case of the UK Government appeal against Gina Miller, the court found in favour of the pleb – Gina Miller.

      That’s a F.A.R.T. in your general direction.”

      Gina Miller a “pleb” fighting for the rights of “plebs”?

      Are you that gullible?

      “Ordinary investment banker” Gina Miller was fighting for the rights of the City of London.

      In any case, I was talking about the rotten to the core Scottish justice system.

    155. Robert Peffers says:

      @colin alexander says: 12 September, 2017 at 4:13 pm:

      “I have no interest in discussing or defending WM devolution or the SNP’s record as the so-called Scottish Govt.”

      Hilarious! As if we had not noticed

      “I want a sovereign parliament and a sovereign govt for Scotland.”

      By your own hilarious definition stated above you already have one.

      It is, as you defined it above, “HER MAJESTY’S GOVERNMENT”, at Westminster and, under only KINGDOM OF ENGLAND law, Her Majesty – The Queen of England – is legally sovereign only under English law. Under Scottish law all Scottish monarchs are NOT sovereign but are Queen/King of Scots only.

      You are, Colin, a proven person who doesn’t understand the legal situation or indeed fails to understand the actual English language you misuse to describe the untruths you attempt to describe.

      A bit like Rock in fact. May be you are him.
      As already stated Awa an bile yer heid.

    156. Capella says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood – well said! I generally ignore the two harpies who frequent these precincts. But appreciate someone spelling out how tedious it is.
      Now back to the complete ignoral they deserve.

      @ Robert Peffers – never fear Robert. We are solidly behind the vanguard of the independence movement. Ignore the concern trolls.

    157. Orri says:

      If Sturgeon calls a referendum then either May, or her emergency replacement, organise the transfer of power to make changes to the UK constitution to Holyrood or the referedum goes ahead without it.

      There then comes the dilemma on the part of the unionist parties as to whether they actively campaign against independence thus endorsing it as legitimate or try to organise a boycott. The latter risks a scenario where a majority of the eligible electorate votes for independence.

      Of course the groundwork to forment loyalist violence is already under way so an excuse for active troop deployment might be found. However given the confinement of Scots troops to barracks on previous occasions it’s likely those troops would be from the rUK. Assuming that NI doesn’t kick off or republican terrorists don’t black flag an attack in the guise Scottish extremists. Unlike NI we’re on the same landmass and there are far more of us.

      Regardless of which the common complaint is that somehow the SNP are feart of calling a 2nd referendum without being certain of victory. Which is a potentially catastrophic blunder from a unionist propaganda standpoint as even if Sturgeon lighting the touch paper can be portrayed as a panic the question will remain as to what May is afraid of?

    158. Rock says:

      Ian Brotherhood,

      “The scum who helped drive one of our dear friends to a suicide attempt use the same tactics as you and CA: belittle, demean, undermine, goad, taunt…relentlessly.”

      I don’t know which scum you are talking about, but may I respectfully remind the likes of yourself that you have no respect for the owner of this website.

      Who are you to censure posters or comments?

      You have even less principles than the Labour MPs who abstain to let Tory laws pass through:

      Ian Brotherhood,
      11 February, 2017 at 12:59 am

      “Rock and his supporters are – successfully – choking the life out of creative, informative discourse on this site.

      No more appealing to Rev, or anyone else – I’m out.”

    159. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Breeks @ 21:22,

      Having myself taken a quick look through the document kindly referenced by valerie, this one is subtle. More than you would prefer, perhaps, but still.

      As I see it, it’s saying that it is the duty of the SG to take responsible ,easures for the eventuality of Brexit, but even that reasonable position forces it into a clash on several grounds with UKGov, and indeed would force it in the future into increasing clashes because of the inanely fossilised and yet overriding form that the proposed UK law takes.

      The fundamental concern is that the UK’s replacement of EU Law (the nearest we actually have to a formal constitution) by arbitrary English Law gives it indefinite permission to dictate to the devolved administrations even within their own legitimate competences. Even the impotent Sewell is thereby in effect castrated. (See eg. §16 & §17.)

      Now, we all suspect that there are sacrificial lambs deliberately built in to the UK Bill in order to be conceded later (eg. to the HoL) so the current situation is by no means stable.

      However, equally there is nothing in this document which constrains the SG taking its own course as and when it sees fit, eg. in calling for an indyref2.

      And would be perfectly justified doing so when its responsible approaches to UKGov are ignored as in the past. There is still the makings of a full-on constitutional confrontation in here, provided the SG is ready and willing for it.

      There is potentially steel within this velvet glove.

    160. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers,

      “A bit like Rock in fact. May be you are him.
      As already stated Awa an bile yer heid.”

      You are an aggressive verbal bully here and almost certainly a nasty person in real life.

      If you are as clever as you think, why don’t you have your own site to flog your “knowledge”?

      Instead of contaminating every article on someone else’s website with your verbal diarrhoea.

      Why haven’t you ever written a book on the history of the union?

    161. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Rock –

      😉

    162. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      me @ 22:03,

      Whoops, “measures” not “,easures”. (finger slip)

    163. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Oh, FGS. Another evening of rock’n’roll with the Ragtime Band. Ignore the pair of useless feckers, and leave them shouting into the void. Maybe then they will get the message and move on along.

    164. Robert Peffers says:

      @COLIN ALEXANDER says: 12 September, 2017 at 4:49 pm:

      “WM can take any administrative powers off Holyrood any time it wants to. It can close it down if it wants to.”

      Correction, Colin, Westminster can try. If it ever does it will seal the ending of the Treaty of Union and thus the end of the United Kingdom.

      Why do you imagine Westminster freely granted Scotland devolved powers in the first place? The answer is they had no choice in the matter for to have done so would have brought on the immediate involvement of the European Court of Human Rights.

      Which most people do seem to think is part of the European Parliament – it isn’t:-

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Human_Rights

      The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR or ECtHR; French: Cour européenne des droits de l’homme) is a supra-national or international court established by the European Convention on Human Rights. It hears applications alleging that a contracting state has breached one or more of the human rights provisions concerning civil and political rights set out in the Convention and its protocols. An application can be lodged by an individual, a group of individuals or one or more of the other contracting states, and, besides judgments, the Court can also issue advisory opinions. The Convention was adopted within the context of the Council of Europe, and all of its 47 member states are contracting parties to the Convention. The Court is based in Strasbourg, France.

      Note it is 47 European states and thus much, much bigger than the EU’s 27(cough!), states.

      As the United Kingdom is a signatory of that organisation it is bound by that organisation.

      Now imaging the Kingdom of England attempting to form trade deals while 47 European states are applying trade sanctions upon them. You consistently blether total crap.

    165. McDuff says:

      The problem again is that a lot of people will read the headlines and not realise that this “report“ was the work of one Labour anti independence/SNP individual.
      And (once again) unless we can find an effective way of alerting the general public as to the true facts in this and other distorted Unionist propaganda stories , it will have a detrimental effect come the next referendum.

    166. schrodingers cat says:

      re leaflets

      what we need is another wee blue book, my only criticism of the first was that it came too late in indyref1. I hope stu is ahead of the game this time.

      i think people are sick of the death by leaflets tactic.

      we should combine canvasing and leafleting next time and hand the wbb over in person.

      it should be the basis of indyref2 literature, everytime you have any kind of photo op, everyone should hold a copy up high. people will begin to ask what it is we are holding up, generate interest in the book, make it something that everyone knows generate curiosity, (most leaflets get ignored). i suggest a bill board campaign for it as well.

    167. heedtracker says:

      Who are you to censure posters or comments?

      You’re always doing it Rock. What a laugh trolls are sometimes.

    168. schrodingers cat says:

      imagine 5-10k yes supporters walking through glasgow each holding up a copy of the wbb2,

      anyone who sees any photo will ask, “what is that they are holding”

      just an idea

    169. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 12 September, 2017 at 5:16 pm:

      ” … No, the UKSC ruling doesn’t prove Holyrood isn’t sovereign, all it proves is that the UK Parliament does not have to ask Holyrood for a Legislative Consent Motion to be passed according to the Sewel Convention.”

      Correct. yesindyref2.

      The other myth that is getting pushed upon Wings today is that anyone, including Theresa May or Westminster can prevent the SG, or even the SNP as a party , from holding a referendum is utter pish. No one can do so – unless by military force.

      All Westminster can attempt to do, and would get more trouble from such as the European Court of Human rights –

      (Which is NOT to be confused with the “European Court of Justice”, which is only the highest court of the European Union’s 28 states while the ECHR is 47 European states and the UK is a signatory and subject to the ECHR.

      – is to say they will not recognise the results of an SG referendum as binding. The ECHR might well have something to say about THAT.

    170. Macart says:

      The strategy of Westminster government is not to directly close down the Holyrood parliament. Their strategy is to get YOU to do it.

      What they will do is deny the Scottish parliament any significant powers to tackle economic hardship. They may even take back a few. They’ll weaken the parliaments ability to cope with their central legislation and they’ll wage a media campaign to undermine trust in both devolution and the Holyrood parliament. Ohhhh wait!

      The objective is to get Scots to give up any idea of self government.

      Or, we can maybe get behind our parliament and a government willing to defend its existence. We can maybe defend our rights and our democracy at the ballot when called upon. ANY time we are called upon. The GE should have been a wake up call. Not for the SNP, but for the electorate. The SNP can’t deliver your independence or defend your rights without your participation, your permission.

      Your rights and your democracy aren’t serving suggestions. They were too hard won in the first place.

      You use them, or you lose them. Your choice.

    171. Capella says:

      One tactic of the Czechs under occupation was to wear their national colours on special days. It sent a subtle message which is hard to combat. What government could ban the wearing of blue and white?

    172. Colin Alexander says:

      @Robert Peffers

      @yesindyref2

      From Craig Murray:

      “Regulations under this section may make any provision that could be made by an Act of Parliament (including amending this Act).

      That is one of the quite astonishing clauses that MPs last night voted through in surrendering the entire legislative power Parliament gained over 600 years, to the Executive. If the Act is held to limit the scope of that executive legislative power in any way, the government can simply make a provision to amend the Act to remove that limitation.”

      ——————————–

      So much for WM Govt being answerable to the law.

    173. Robert Peffers says:

      @winifred mccartney says: 12 September, 2017 at 6:03 pm:

      “What about some of Chris Cairns cartoons printed A4 size and stuck on the back or side window of cars – would be well read and they are worth a thousand words.”

      So, Winifred, what’s stopping you? Why not ask Chris if he will allow you to use his copyrighted work and get on with printing them out and distributing them?

      It’s not hard to cut & paste and print out. So why so many Wingers urging others to do something while doing nothing themselves but blaming the SNP/SG for doing nothing?

      I’m certain the SNP would be only too please if Wingers were to cut & paste informative stuff from their extensive website pages and print out copies to display or distribute throughout Scotland.

      BTW: Here’s another link for Facebook users:-

      https://www.facebook.com/theSNP/

      Of course, as we all are aware, (cough!),, ““The SNP/SG are not doing anything about anything.”

      Or is that just the pretendy Wingers who are claiming such things?

    174. Colin Alexander says:

      @Robert Peffers

      If you are suggesting the SNP will defy UK Govt, that would be a first for the SNP.

      The SNP talk tough and then act weak when it comes to the UK Govt.

      Do you expect me to believe if they held an indyref without a Section 30 that the UK Govt would then accept the result if YES won, and would begin indy negotiations?

      Of course they wouldn’t and we all know the SNPers quake with fear at the mention of the only realistic alternative- de facto UDI -by declaring the Union is over.

    175. Ken500 says:

      Good evening Mr Peffers

      Brilliant info as per usual

      Thanks

    176. crazycat says:

      In case anyone is thinking of producing leaflets or billboards, there are various rules which might be relevant.

      Any leaflet or billboard for public consumption needs to bear an imprint giving the names and addresses of the printer and the person/organization on whose behalf it has been produced.

      There is also the “Gagging Law” – officially the Transparency of Lobbying, Non-party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Act, 2014. This is tedious and in places vague, especially in respect of “joint campaigning”, which risks reaching spending limits a small group would otherwise be nowhere near.

      The term of this Act apply to pre-election periods, but as we’ve seen this year, elections can be unexpected. So to be on the safe side I assume it’s always a pre-election period.

    177. Robert Peffers says:

      @Colin Alexander says: 12 September, 2017 at 6:33 pm:

      “And what’s the effect of that in practical terms? You missed out that bit:”

      Utter pish! Your arguments have been demolished – that’s what happens in practice.

      The whole truth, as already posted, is that Westminster had no choice in granting devolved powers as they were under pressure from several sources including ECHR, (European Court of Human Rights).

      Of which the Westminster Parliament are signatories and thus bound by the ECHR rulings. This is NOT an EU Court as most misinformed UK voters, like you, are led to believe. It is the Council Of Europe who have 47 member states of which all the 28 EU states are signatories and thus bound by ECHR rulings.

      Your other laughable point, that Westminster can legislate what it likes, is another total myth. Any government, even dictatorships, cannot get away with going against the wishes of the people for too long. Few dictatorships last very long. Sooner or later ether the people rise against them or there is a coupe by someone else and their situation becomes untenable.

      You are being ridiculed, Colin. That means you have lost.
      Noo awa an bile yer heid.

    178. yesindyref2 says:

      So, what happens if the FM announces indyref2 along the timeframe you suggest and Mrs May says no?

      “Next steps”, remember? FART.

      Gina Miller a “pleb” fighting for the rights of “plebs”?

      Well she certainly ain’t the UK Government or Parliament, and given there’s either Government or plebs, that makes her a pleb, a rich pleb. FART,

    179. Colin Alexander says:

      @Robert Peffers

      My arguments have not been demolished. You are making assertions about the future that you cannot prove.

      That the ECHR will do this or do that to help Scotland, is pure speculation.

      It’s Ireland that gets the special deals because the Irish stood up to the UK. They fought the UK Govt and won their freedom ( for most of Ireland anyway).

      Whereas our Scottish political leaders wouldn’t risk their cushy jobs, let alone their freedom or their lives for Scotland’s liberty from WM rule.

      (No, I’m not advocating violent struggle.)

      —————————————————–

      WM legislating. We are talking in a Scottish context.

      You expect the people of England to have an uprising against WM to defend Scottish sovereignty or Scottish democracy?

      Cheers Robert, at least you gave me a laugh.

      Goodnight, sir.

    180. yesindyref2 says:

      @Breeks ““I’m raging at that Valerie. Unless I missed it, not a mention of Scottish sovereignty, just mealy mouthed acceptance of Brexit, and lame, supine “making the best of it”.

      From that SG Document:

      3.
      The Scottish Government does not currently intend to lodge a legislative consent motion in relation to the Bill.

      No LCM – full-blooded constitutional crisis. What more do you want?

    181. John de Soulis says:

      @jfngw 9:39

      Double oops. 🙁 My only excuse, is that I’m so pissed at the bill passing, I made the figures come up with the result I wanted.

      I don’t think the tellers vote, I don’t know how many there were but I would think it would be an even number.

    182. Ken500 says:

      For 326 Against 290. ?

      Labour have mucked up again. Done it again voted with the Tories to damage the world economy.

      Twenty – ignorant incompetents,

      Take 20 from 326 = 306 Add 20 to 290 = 310. The Tirues could have fern defeated and brought down. A vote of no confidence and another GE. The Tories would lose.

      Unbelieveable. Still a vote in anther IndyRef. One which will be won? Getting closer.

      There was a mention/comment – Poll? In rating of voting intentions on a Holyrood Election. All Unionists Parties voting intentions recorded are over 30% down. Ie another landslide for the SNP. Possible increasing support for SNP/FFA/Independence? Gaining %.

    183. Ken500 says:

      For 326 Against 290. ?

      Labour have mucked up again. Done it again voted with the Tories to damage the world economy.

      Twenty – ignorant incompetents,

      Take 20 from 326 = 306 Add 20 to 290 = 310. The Tirues could hadefeated and brought down. A vote of no confidence and another GE. The Tories would lose.

      Unbelieveable. Still a vote in anther IndyRef. One which will be won? Getting closer.

      There was a mention/comment – Poll? In rating of voting intentions on a Holyrood Election. All Unionists Parties voting intentions recorded are over 30% down. Ie another landslide for the SNP. Possible increasing support for SNP/FFA/Independence? Gaining %.

    184. yesindyref2 says:

      @Breeks
      34.
      Under Rule 9B.3.3(d) of the Parliament?s Standing Orders 16, if a member of the Scottish Government does not propose to include a draft motion they must explain why not. Paragraphs 12–32 above set out the Government’s reasons for not including a draft motion in this memorandum for the purposes of that rule.

      So there you go, the ScotGov has followed the rules, and has clearly laid out the full basis of the dispute, over the LCM being withheld.

    185. Meg merrilees says:

      jfngw

      see John de Soulis ‘post @ 6.28 – There were 13 abstentions .

    186. Stan Wilson says:

      Slightly O/T

      This from the UK Supreme Court judgement in the Appeal in the Article 50 case brought by Gina Millar.

      “”[Para] 149. In the Scotland Act 2016, the recognition of the Sewel Convention occurs alongside the provi sion in section 1 of that Act. That section, by inserting section 63A into the Scotland Act 1998, makes the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish government a permanent part of the United Kingdom’s constitutional arrangements, signifies the commitment of the UK Parliament and government to those devolved institutions, and declares that those institutions are not to be abolished except on the basis of a decision of the people of Scotland voting in a referendum. This context supports our view that the purpose of the legislative recognition of the convention was to entrench it as a convention.””

      So Scottish Parliament not to be abolished except by the people of Scotland voting in a referendum on that specific issue.

      The Repeal Bill will be used to weaken all aspects of our Scottish Government and re-reserve power to Westminster, leaving us with just enough powers to run a local council.

    187. Chic McGregor says:

      OT
      Apologies if Nana or someone has already posted links on this, but because I haven’t noticed any I thought it was worth posting here again even if it has already been done.

      To me it is more newsworthy than it seems to have been treated by our marvellous SMSM.

      https://stv.tv/news/politics/1397520-brexit-eu-s-chief-negotiator-holds-meeting-with-msps/

    188. Meg merrilees says:

      ben madigan @ 6.58 and 7.12

      re the Gina Miller reference I’m commenting on the headline in today’s National:

      “DUP’S £1BN DEAL NEEDS TO BE APPROVED BY MPs.
      Shock admission after latest challenge by campaigner Gina Miller.

      She has a letter from the Treasury solicitor which says that the investment package for N. Ireland ‘will ghave appropriate Par;iamentary authorisation’ through the normal budgetary process.
      She said yesterday that she was ‘stunned’ that the DUP cash required Parliamentary approval and that this aspect of the sea had not been widely known.
      No timetable has been set for making the payments.”
      The article will be available on The National website.

      Re Sinn Fein coming to Westminster – I understand totally their reasons for not taking up their seats but we can dream!!!

    189. Chick McGregor says:

      PS the STV article does not mention the fact that Mr Bernier said he would be happy to meet with them again.

    190. Robert Peffers says:

      @Macart says: 12 September, 2017 at 10:31 pm:

      “… The strategy of Westminster government is not to directly close down the Holyrood parliament. Their strategy is to get YOU to do it…”

      Indeed, Macart, and what do you suppose all those (Cough!), Yessers, (self proclaimed), claimants who have been bleating for many weeks that the SNP/SG are doing nothing is all about?

      What do you suppose the lack of truthful information being quoted, but which is freely available on the Holyrood and SNP websites is all about?

      Now I’m not a genius but I find that the SG and SNP are busy doing things, including their day jobs, by reading their reports and watching Holyrood and Westminster on-line live video but I do not ever read, or watch, unionist reports of their impression of what the SG and SNP are doing because I have found such reports are at best inaccurate at worst, (most of the time), total lies. I only hear the negativity from on-line unionist sources and, of course increasingly, from apparently disgruntled Wingers.

      So I’m more than a wee bit suspicious of those claiming to be Indy supporters who claim the SNP are doing nothing and as for the reports that Scottish trusted organisations like Education & the SNHS are performing badly – total lies and unionist misdirection.

      To my mind the Unionists are well past the stage of overplaying their already poor hands and more and the less involved voters are now starting to realise it.

      I’m only again beginning to get out and about again, (just a little bit though), but I notice an increase in the number of total strangers who stop me in the street for no better reason than my prominent big SNP YES badge, Wingers hat & wee Wingers badges. There seems to be an increasing interest and awareness from the general public and that has to be a very good thing.

    191. Robert Peffers says:

      @Capella says: 12 September, 2017 at 10:33 pm:

      “One tactic of the Czechs under occupation was to wear their national colours on special days. It sent a subtle message which is hard to combat. What government could ban the wearing of blue and white?”

      Since you asked, Capella, I would venture a guess that Westminster would certainly give that a good try. They have after all, got proven form in banning our tartans, languages and cultures.

    192. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      crazycat @ 23:04,

      No, that interpretation is surely too harsh. The legislation can’t reasonably be expected to apply retrospectively, since then any law-abiding leafleter would have to have second sight!

      I believe the infringment is only possible after an election has been formally announced.

      Your other comments only apply during an election. Political parties just don’t bother at any other time, since for them the cost & effort would not normally be worthwhile.

      But now is a very different time for yessers. A steady supply of material supporting indy is what we really need to be distributing to folks. As people well feel, in order to counteract the constant drizzle of anti-indy lies and distortions in the MSM, who are trying to achieve the undermining macart mentions @ 22:31.

      Of course, any other practical suggestions for getting the message out to people who don’t access social media is surely always worth considering…

    193. Chick McGregor says:

      Barnier.

    194. Ken500 says:

      A comment/mention – Twitter? Report voting intention recorded for a Holyrood Election. All unionists Oarties are over 30% down. Ie Another SNP landslide victory. Support for Independence rising? for next IndyRef?

      Labour mucked up again. 20 voted with the Tories. Unbelievable.

      For 326 Against 290

      326 – 20 = 306.

      290 + 20 = 310

      The Tories could have been defeated. Brought down. A vote of no confidence. Another GE Election which the Tories would have lost.

      Unbelievable. Ruining the world economy, again. The ignorant incompetents.

      Some people do not/cannot distinguish the rights and responsibility of an SNP (minority) Gov governing all of Scotland and the aims purpose of rights and responsibilities of a political Party. (Leader). There are rules/laws (electoral/ governmental) codes of conduct covering their function and actions. These must be adhered to for legal purposes. A code of conduct for government Office. A code of conduct for Holyrood to govern for the whole of Scotland. (Not just for SNP members) in the interest of all the people. Different from the role, rules and regulations adhered to as leader of a political Party.
      a political Party.

    195. Legerwood says:

      O/T but all of a piece with what is going on.

      Looks like the Westminster demolition of the Scottish renewables sector is continuing. The tidal energy project in the Pentland Forth, which broke some world records last month, has probably lost out in the recent round of energy auctions. The result is that it may move abroad because other countries are interested in funding it.

      Wings Twitter feed has a link to an FT article about it.

    196. Chick McGregor says:

      OT2
      Anyone else notice the ludicrous spectacle of Yoon politicos calling for the old Forth road bridge to be re-opened and repairs worked around that traffic and therefore slowed down, the same Yoonatics who condemned the SNP for not ensuring such repairs were carried out as fast as possible before?
      The same Yoonatics who implied keeping the Scottish Government bridge open was a safety hazard?

    197. Robert Peffers says:

      @Colin Alexander says: 12 September, 2017 at 10:35 pm:

      From Craig Murray:”

      Nothing in what Craig said is in any way relevant to what I posted. So why are you continuing this farce?

      The EU & UK are subject to the ECHR as they the UK is, as yet, members and signatories of both but the UK by UKExit is not negating their commitments under their signature on the ECHR treaty. As usual you are talking utter mince.

      Awa an bile yer heid and stop doing nothing more that irritating Wingers who have no interest in your unionist views
      You are a total waste of bandwidth.

    198. Ken500 says:

      The Sin Fein members take £Millions of (Westminster allowances etc) UK taxpayers funding.

      Ireland (NI) could vote to reunite. The demographic are changing. Quite possible in the near future, especially because of Brexit. DUP votes in decline. Republican increasing.

    199. Legerwood says:

      Here is the link to the FT article on Tidal power scheme in Pentland FirthI referred to in my post at 12.10 am

      http://archive.is/SCTXC

    200. Ken500 says:

      It is the UN that people are appealing to because of the illegal Tories policies. The UN is condemning the Tory policies under International Law. The Tories have to comply and change their action. The UN has declared the Tories/Westminster are acting illegally. They have to comply and change policies. On all issues, especially welfare. Denying people their basic rightsNHS/care facilities. Sanctioning and starving people. Etc.

    201. yesindyref2 says:

      @Stan Wilson
      Exactly. The sewel convention clause in the Scotland Act was dellibnerately weakened with the word “normally” by Keen – a Lord and ex-Scottish conservative party chairman and advocate general for the UK government.

      But the permanence clause seems to have been accepted by the UKSC which is a big step forward. So a question in any future court case would be that permanence itself, what constitutes it, how far does it go, and therefore what is the authority of the parliament it protects? In other words, how far does its already confirmed sovereignty go? It already needs a referendum to abolish it, not just a repeal of the Scotland Act.

      In this case if the Repeal Act is not followed by an LCM, because it removes legislative competenece from the Scottish Parliament, that in itself gives cause for court action by the SG – who have already sharpened their teeth in the UKSC, and presented arguments about that very Claim of Right which protects the Scottish Parliament, albeit currently devolved, even if they were not actually considered in the judgement which was about Sewel. They were entered in submissions.

      Meanwhile in a political sense this puts the unionist parties on the spot. Labour so far are in the clear, their MPs voted against the repeal act first reading. The 13 Tory MPs could get away with saying they voted for the first reading to get the Bill past its first hearing, but still haven’t voted on its final form. So they’re in limbo, but still haven’t actually gone against Devolution, though of course we quite rightly make capital on them for their “betrayal”, even though it hasn’t fully happened.

      Meanwhile again Davidson makes the right noises, perhaps to wait and see what May and her merry band do to make the Repeal Bill acceptable. If the final form is one that the SG can put forward an LCM then the Conservative MSPs are in the clear – clearly they can vote for it, along with the SNP and others.

      The difficulty comes if May and Co refuse to make the neccessary amendments for an LCM to be put forward. Which way then do the Westminster Conservative MPS vote, and what side do the Conservative MSPs take in the formal dispute over an absence of an LCM, possibly involving court action?

      In this respect there is absolutely no pressure on the SNP politically, Labour are still in the clear, Willie is smiling and nobody knows where the LibDems are, the pressure is all on the poor Tories. What a shame. My heart bleeds for them.

      And even if it all gets past this Repeal Act, there’s still the terms of Brexit to come.

      The Repeal Act is a bonus for the Scottish Government, the SNP, YES and Independence. It’s a real tight knicker-twisting squirm for the Tories. It also gives the Labour party in Scotland the chance to come down on the side of the angels which, so far, they are, and did under Dugdale (She and Labour supported Sturgeon and the SNP on Holyrood EU motions 12 out of 13 times). But it’s still not the main attraction.

    202. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ken500 @ 23:43,

      The 13 cowardly Labour abstentions can only be added to the “nays”, not subtracted from the “ayes”, since they never voted in the first place.

      Only the 7 Labour isolationist zealots, Skinner, Field, Hoey et al can be discounted and re-counted as you did.

      I can’t be faffed to work out what if any difference that might make, alas. It was a gross betrayal of parliamentary sovereignty whatever.

      For example, plenty of paid-up dummies on the Tory side too. Where were Ruthie’s brave little Tartan Army when they were really needed, huh?

    203. Robert Peffers says:

      @Chic McGregor says: 12 September, 2017 at 11:57 pm:

      “Apologies if Nana or someone has already posted links on this, but because I haven’t noticed any I thought it was worth posting here again even if it has already been done.
      To me it is more newsworthy than it seems to have been treated by our marvellous SMSM.
      https://stv.tv/news/politics/1397520-brexit-eu-s-chief-negotiator-holds-meeting-with-msps/

      I did not actually report the meeting taking place, Chic, but I quoted a couple of things the European Union’s chief negotiator Michel Barnier, actually said during the meetings in the context of what they meant in international diplomatic language terms.

      Both of which are very encouraging as I’m sure the SG are aware.

      These guys are restricted in what they can say. His claim that he was very interested and had carefully considered the implications for Scotland were followed by a statement that neither he or Mr Junker would interfere in UK political matters.

      This was his diplomatic way of saying the EU was well aware of the implications and had studied them well but that they could not directly interfere for the time being. As he was saying this to Joan MacAlpine the significance was obvious. It was also the probable cause of it not being reported by the SMSM or the UK BBC.

    204. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers “This was his diplomatic way of saying the EU was well aware of the implications and had studied them well but that they could not directly interfere for the time being.

      Precisely why the legislation for Indy Ref 2 had to be put through, to show the EU Scotland was serious, a point of course unionist agitators – and others – ignore.

      After a YES vote, I think the EU-27 will be ready for Scotland. Ready and eager.

    205. Gary says:

      people read headlines and THAT IS ALL.

      I almost had a conversation with someone about politics a few weeks ago.

      He was saying how he thought he couldn’t vote SNP due to the state of education and how they messed it up. I asked what did he mean? What was wrong, what had they done, what SHOULD be done?

      He immediately admitted that he had no idea, it was just what he’d read. But, if he’d ACTUALLY read anything, he’d know WHY he thought that, right?? NOPE – didn’t get past the Daily Mail headline (I’m assuming Daily Mail – could’ve been anything really)

      People don’t know, don’t want to know and are happy to have their thinking outsourced to that nice man who doesn’t pay any taxes…

    206. Valerie says:

      @ yesindyref2

      You might be interested in this butt clenching info. I’ve just shared

      It shows year 2030 impacts of Brexit on GDP, as modelled by a number of usual names etc.

      https://twitter.com/ValerieRooney1/status/907753911897006081

      It’s insane. The more I hear, and this week’s events, my Plan B needs work.

      Secondly, lots of sources on Twitter – UK now preparing to walk away from EU. Norman Smith, BBC tweeted it too.

    207. yesindyref2 says:

      Correction, second reading of course, not first.

    208. Ken500 says:

      Wasn’t aware of the abstainers. Just took the overall figures as given. Should have look it up, but same difference. If they had voted against the Tories could have been defeated. This farce could have been ended No convictions on anything, just their bottom line. So they can tax evade. They are so despicable. It is just unbelievable. They are working to bring the world economy down again. It’s like a rocky horror show.

      Inflation has risen. Higher prices . The £ has fallen. Higher prices. There is even talk of bank interest rate rises. Making things more expensive again. It is like Thatcher all over again. Dread to think what Scotland would be like without the competent, efficient (SNP) Gov. With the utter useless unionists in charge. Unthinkable. The (SNP) Gov standing up for Scotland. Support for FFA /Indepenence in (or close ties) EU rising. Another IndyRef could be won soon. Rather than later.

    209. Ken500 says:

      The Forth Road Bridge is shut for readjustment. They could be realigning the road. It has to be shut under health and safety Laws. They could be realigning the lanes and approaches. The road is going to be opened for cars again in 4 to 6 weeks. Keith Brown stated in TV News.

    210. yesindyref2 says:

      @Valerie
      Mine might be to get my Irish passport. Nearly moved over years ago, but at least unlike me the kids have been born, raised and flew out of the nest in the same home and country.

      Wonder what it is May will be saying? That she likes hill-walking?

    211. Petra says:

      @ Chic at 12:01am ….

      I’m sure I read somewhere that the Scottish EU Committee has been invited to Brussels too. That it was quite telling that they’d be going to Brussels but ignored by London. The ‘exchange’ visit is sure to stick in a number of craws.

      ……………………..

      In the National (12/09) article, ‘FM calls for unity over devolution’, it quotes Nicola Sturgeon as saying to an audience in Edinburgh on Monday … “Everyone knows that I believe that becoming an Independent country would be the best future for Scotland and also as I said in June, at the end of the Brexit process I believe that the people of Scotland should have a choice about our future direction as a country. Indeed at it’s heart, Independence is the natural extension of the principle that decisions should be taken in Scotland, and that doing so improves the lives of the people who live here.”

      To my mind that means the Indyref2 is still on the cards for late 2018.
      ………………………………

      Also some excellent articles in the National, such as on the Kurds holding an advisory Independence Referendum in 2 weeks time and a Michael Fry article on GERS with him stating “Garbage in and garbage out … how a Scottish deficit has arisen that is purely theoretical and corresponds to no actual cash flow in the real world.”

      He also says that the absence of two heads of expenditure, national debt and defence, would knock 6 billion off of the so-called 13.3 billion black hole right away. On the spending IN and spending FOR Scotland he uses the example of the Royal Navy’s two aircraft carriers deemed to have been built in Scotland which we will have to pay our share of the expenditure on their maintenance, equipment and crews.

      “However for their 50 years of active service they will be of no benefit to Scotland, because they will create the spending of not one penny in Scotland. They don’t bother to defend Scottish waters and the ships will be based in Portsmouth (or Norfolk, Virginia)…… It’ll generate real income for the 20,000 citizens of Portsmouth who have jobs in the naval dockyard or in connected commercial activities. These workers are taxed, of course, but the taxes they pay are not defined in any way as Scottish, even though the income out of which they pay their taxes has been defined, in part and in theory, as Scottish. Their tax payments are instead treated in the national accounts as arising wholly in England. Multiply this single instance to cover … etc, etc.”

      …………………………….

      Also a great article in Monday’s National from George Kerevan … “The treatment of Catalonia shows the spirit of Franco still lives in Spain.” He really knows his stuff. Who’s actually behind running the country etc. A real eye-opener that highlights that we’d be better opting for EFTA initially.

    212. Valerie says:

      @ yesindyref2

      I have my Irish passport, so that would be my very reluctant Plan B, as I have never lived there, although I know it well enough, and have some affection for it, through years of visits.

      Eire is by no means perfect, but this week, and that info I posted, have been shocking, I mean stomach churning.

      So shocking, that I feel like running from here. Never felt that way in my life.

      I think that’s why I was upset for weeks after Brexit vote, I just knew there would be horror in it under the Tories.

      They have control now, and I think things will move faster, as more unfolds.

    213. Petra says:

      @ Legerwood at 12:18am ……. ‘Tidal power scheme in Pentland Firth.’

      Yeah it’s an absolute disgrace Legerwood. They’re determined to scupper Scottish renewables until such time they think they’ve got their claws right into us on a permanent basis. Getting rid of something else that’s seen to be a Scottish… SNP … success story.

      Meanwhile I see they’ve now passed the construction of the 1.8 mile road tunnel at UNESCO status Stonehenge costing £1.6 billion (and the rest no doubt). Just wondering if we’ll have to pay a share of that? Of ‘National’ interest and all of that kind of GERS stuff, rather guff or cr*p as Richard Murphy would say.

    214. crazycat says:

      @ Robert J Sutherland at 12.06

      https://archive.is/cAMjz (my bold)

      UK charities face a permanent “chilling effect” on their campaigns after the Electoral Commission said they must declare any work that could be deemed political over the past 12 months to ensure they are not in breach of the Lobbying Act.

      At least one charity has been warned that if it does not, it may face “civil or criminal sanctions”.

      The legislation, dubbed the “gagging law” by charities when it was introduced in 2014, regulates the amount of money organisations can spend on campaigns deemed to be political in the run up to an election.

      Under fixed term parliament rules it was envisaged that organisations would know when the period of regulated spending came into force ahead of a general election.

      But following Theresa May’s snap election announcement last month the Electoral Commission has announced that the regulated period came into force retrospectively – and started in June last year.

      Greenpeace UK’s executive director John Sauven said the decision would have a huge impact on charities’ activities.

      “The commission implies that since a snap election can be called at any time, there is now no fixed start or end date to the regulated period. It’s as if the Lobbying Act and its spending cap were now permanently in force, every day of every year.”

      I spent a great deal of time in late 2014 investigating this, including exchanging e-mails with the Electoral Commission to try to clarify the vague bits. It is a real mess.

      Sensible people like you may think it cannot possibly be that bad, but it really does appear to be. It also refers specifically to non-party campaigning, so it does not matter whether the parties are currently bothered.

      Meanwhile, imprints are always required, whether there is an election looming or not.

    215. yesindyref2 says:

      FM: in coming months ScotGov will publish “series of evidence-based papers” on extending Holyrood powers over employment, immigration, trade

      https://twitter.com/BBCPhilipSim/status/907186829387907072

      Hopefully these papers will also be of use for Indy Ref 2.

    216. Petra says:

      Oops the other way around (1:20am). Barnier coming to Scotland! Exhausted and have an abscess in my gum! Better get to bed and TRY to get some sleep.

    217. Petra says:

      @ Indyref2 at 2:07am ……

      Just had a look at that link IR2. At the comments on there. Shut Holyrood down etc. Becoming pretty catching now!

    218. Breeks says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      12 September, 2017 at 10:03 pm
      Breeks @ 21:22,

      “Having myself taken a quick look through the document kindly referenced by valerie, this one is subtle. More than you would prefer, perhaps, but still.

      As I see it, it’s saying that it is the duty of the SG to take responsible measures for the eventuality of Brexit, but even that reasonable position forces it into a clash on several grounds with UKGov, and indeed would force it in the future into increasing clashes because of the inanely fossilised and yet overriding form that the proposed UK law takes.”….

      I do get that Robert, but why is a contingency plan necessary when the Brexit vote of 2016 returned an emphatic result to stay in Europe delivered by a sovereign Scottish majority which ought properly to kill Scotland’s Brexit stone dead?

      Why are we pandering to Westminster’s faux sovereignty rather than standing up for our own? Why are we perplexing ourselves trying to contain Westminster’s excesses? Be blunt and direct and force them to reconcile the immovable roadblock of a sovereign Scottish vote to remain in Europe!!! Why are we so complicit in agreeing our terms of surrender and calling it a responsible preamble? At least call it what it is – the humiliating abdication of Scottish sovereignty.

      Why are we not challenging Westminster to address their attempted subjugation of Scottish sovereignty? Have THEM flounder upon OUR constitutional conundrums!!!

      This is rampant defeatism when we hold the winning cards. It is so fecking disheartening it’s untrue. Our own SNP government has no faith in our sovereign strength. They prefer a soft Brexit for peace in our time.

    219. Meindevon says:

      Sorry if this has been posted already (been out and about in a wet but nice and warm Kentucky for dinner) but this is another great speech in the HoC by the one and only Tommy Shepherd.

      Notice the disgusting lack of Tory MPs. I’m raging (partly due to the bourbon!)

      https://www.facebook.com/TommySheppardSNP/videos/1941722836075773/

      (Hope link works not done a Facebook one before)

    220. Meg merrilees says:

      Robert J Sutherland ; Ken500

      regarding abstentions :

      Lord Citrine in the ‘A.B.C of Chairmanship’ says..
      Para 200: ” …the practice is to be strongly deprecated, as it shows a lack of individuality and decision. There is no compulsion on a member to vote, but even if a member does not vote, he does not escape responsibility. Unless he definitely indicates to the Chairman that he is remaining neutral and not voting, he is held to be in favour of the decision of the majority. “

    221. yesindyref2 says:

      @Breeks: “Our own SNP government has no faith in our sovereign strength. They prefer a soft Brexit for peace in our time.

      Ask yourself some questions:

      1). What is the percentage probability Westminster will back off Brexit, or have a soft Brexit, part of the single market, make a deal, which involves keeping the four freedoms, including immigration?

      2). What is the percentage probability the EU-27 will accept any single market deal which involves the UK NOT endorsing the 4 freedoms, including free movement of EU peoples?

      3). What is the percentage probability Westminster will modify the EU Withdrawal Bill to pass the neccessary powers back to Holyrood, rather than keep them to themselves, so that the Scottish Government can pass a Legislative Consent Motion to endorse the Bill?

      4). If Westminster does proceed with a Hard Brexit, what is the percentage probability of Scotland getting our own differentiated solution, including immigration and the free movement of EU peoples, so that while the rest of the UK exits the single marrket, Scotland stays in?

      5). What is the percentage probability of the Scottish Government being so dumb and stupid they don’t know the answers to the 4 questions above?

      If any of the above are significantly above 0%, I’ll run around naked outside Holyrood, and all the way down to Westminster to do the same – all in one day, stopping only for roast beef on a full plate yorkshire pudding with lashings of gravy, at that pub underneath the A1 near Thirsk.

    222. Alex Waugh says:

      Meanwhile, one of this morning’s stories on MSN is that, according to a study commissioned by ‘Women’s Hour’ from an actual research company (as opposed to some arsehole), Islington is the worst place in the UK for women to live while the best is …da,da, DAH!!!…East Dunbartonshire. Shall we all hold our breath waiting for that to appear on the front pages?

    223. Ghillie says:

      Oh Breeks. And the rest.

      What I believe we are witnessing is the roiling of the perfect and truly horrific storm.

      EVERY reasonable concession and compromise has been offered.

      In the face of percistent rejection we are well on our Road to Independence =)

    224. Giving Goose says:

      The vote giving the Tories a majority on the public bill committees in charge of the detailed scrutiny of legislation is a game changer IMHO.

      The English Government in Westminster is no longer a democratic institution.

      The Scottish Government should not wait any longer for Brexit but should adopt a tactic of challenging this in an active way.

      Effectively you now have a dictatorship in place in London.

      Call it out for what it is.

      There should be a policy and statement of non cooperation from the Scots Gov on this. Why not! Normal service, such as it was, has been binned at Westminster.

      You’re either a Democrat or a Fascist now. Someone has to stick up for democracy in these islands.

      Even Labour are referring to it as Gerrmandering.

      Do not cooperate until democracy is restored. What does it take to change tactics? Jackboots goose stepping down the Mall?

    225. Nana says:

      Links

      There are a lot this morning, advice for anyone feeling down right now would be to go for a walk rather than read some links which you may find depressing.

      https://www.snp.org/eu_withdrawal_repeal_bill_what_happens_now

      Mike Russel’s speech here
      https://news.gov.scot/speeches-and-briefings/the-european-withdrawal-bill

      Holyrood ‘stands to lose 111 powers’ if Repeal Bill passed
      http://archive.is/qOGNc

      https://itisintruthnotforglory.wordpress.com/2017/09/12/trust/

    226. Smallaxe says:

      Good morning, Nana, wet and windy here today (so is the weather). Thank you for your links. Kettle’s on!
      🙂

    227. Nana says:

      Good morning Smallaxe, wellies and umbrella at the ready here.

    228. Smallaxe says:

      Ghillie;

      That’s what I like to see, a glass half full attitude. I hope it gets filled to overflowing in the very near future.
      🙂

    229. Robert Louis says:

      Just thinking about recent events in the cesspit called Westminster. A place where a party with a tiny majority is being allowed to freely ASSUME FULL unaccountable executive powers, with NO OVERSIGHT whatsoever. Those supposed ‘safeguards’ within the relevant legislation are themselves free to be changed or DELETED by that same political party. Then to make sure they have FULL, COMPLETE dictatorship powers, they have now been allowed to rig ALL committees whose role would be to provide oversight.

      The so-called ‘formal opposition’ in Westminster, the Labour party, have shown themselves as complicit in ALL of this.

      Their is an old saying, ‘if you’re not angry, you’re not paying attention’, well it is now very true. Scotland needs out of this tawdry undemocratic union, ASAP. Since Westminster has now abandoned any semblance of a democratic institution, it no longer has ANY authority over Scotland. They have literally changed ALL their so-called ‘constitutional norms’ to suit their own dictatorial power grab.

      They care nothing for what Wales, Scotland, or N.Ireland think.

      In such circumstances, Scotland and the Scottish Government need to take the lead. If Westminster does not play by the rules, then Scotland should cease complying with their diktats. If the rules are abandoned, then Scotland should not carry on playing by those discredited constitutional rules. Scotland needs to make a stand for democracy, and to protect the people of Scotland against what has become a rabid, out of control right wing dictatorship in London.

      Ill and disabled people are being starved and deprived of their rights, EU citizens and people WHO WERE BORN HERE, are being deported day, in, day out, and the rich are getting richer by the second. A London Right wing dictatorial Government, condemned by the United Nations, over and over again, for breaches of basic human rights. This cannot go on for one more day.

      It is time for action. We know brexit is a catastrophe – of that their is now NO doubt, we know Scotland’s interests will NOT be heard. We know the damage is being done right now, with every passing day. This matter is urgent. We cannot sit back and ‘wait to see’ what brexit looks like, because we already know.

      The irreversible damage is being done NOW.

      Now is the time to call the independence referendum. Now.

      Get on with it.

    230. Breeks says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      13 September, 2017 at 3:14 am
      @Breeks: “Our own SNP government has no faith in our sovereign strength. They prefer a soft Brexit for peace in our time.”

      Ask yourself some questions:…

      1: What is the percentage probability of the Scottish Government standing firm on Scottish Sovereignty or buckling down to Brexit rolling their eyes, shrugging their shoulders and saying “Och we tried”?

      2: If the SNP know there is no Soft Brexit coming from the EU, either for the UK, or the UK Region called Scotland, then why have they squandered month after month in forlorn pseudo negotiations which are now quite, quite academic, when they could, and should have stood by Scotland’s sovereign decision of 2016 and we would now be watching Westminster, not Holyrood, digging the grave for the Union from the safety of our guaranteed place in Europe?

      3: If the SNP understands Scotland’s constitutional sovereignty, then why has it submitted to the inevitability of Brexit? Where is its mandate for doing so?

      4: If, as looks thoroughly inevitable, Westminster steamrollers over Scotland’s meek protestations and goes ahead with Brexit, when, EVER, will Scotland have suffered a more calamatious, undemocratic, irrational, unconstitutional and economically destructive, and downright brazen challenge to its Sovereignty? If our sovereignty is indefensible in these times by a Scottish government of allegedly pro-Independence MP’s and MSP’s, then pray tell me what use are they, and what more egregious circumstances would Scotland have to suffer before our own government did man the barricades of our sovereignty?

      5: In what way is this subjugation of Scotland’s sovereignty by an unconstitutional aggressor any less improper than Iraq invading Kuwait? Why are we not appealing to the international community for pressure brought to bear to see Scotland’s sovereignty is properly and appropriately respected? Do you think Kuwait should have waited until it was destroyed before appealing for international help? Do you think Kuwait needed a referendum to defend itself? …that is a referendum to be run by the Iraqi establishment and Iraq’s media?

      6: What is the difference between an SNP government appeasing its aggressive Brexit for the best possible deal with Westminster, and the Vichy government of France which tried to find the best possible way of living with its “constitutional aggressor” and protecting what was left of France?

    231. Hamish100 says:

      Let Westminster and brexiters make a mess of things as they are doing. We can see what she going on. Inflation up due to the fall in £ petrol and diesel going up because of the fall in the £.

      They are flailing.

      I will agree though that our independence referendum will have to take place before we are pulled out of the EU. Let’s show our young people and our fellow Europeans that we wish not to be part of a right wing racist dictatorship based in Westminster and infliunced by the DUP.

      Timing is everything as the right wing forces here will place all obstructions in our way. From the self apppointed “Scottish “fishing leaders to the Tories.

    232. Macart says:

      Government and politics is a very simple premise surrounded by highly complex procedures, legislation and legal boundaries.

      Even pretty enthusiastic anoraks who follow the comings and goings of the main characters and their parties can be left bewildered and frustrated by the more complex whys and why nots of any given situation. Mainly because they don’t understand or haven’t been clearly informed about the binding legalities and penalties of said situation, the parliamentary procedures involved or latterly the tactics and strategies necessary to circumvent legal penalty and procedure in order to make things happen effectively and with the least harm. (The last one? Kinda DUHHHH moment there.)

      THAT is NOT the fault of the people. Some folk have a natural talent for understanding these things and the even more natural curiosity to go find out about these mechanics. They live for the nuances of chamber debate and protocol. They understand the legal processes and penalties, the ins and outs of the constiutional maze. They need to remember and understand that most of us don’t.

      However interested we are, it can be difficult, not to mention fantastically frustrating, when stuff doesn’t happen when we feel it should. Some calm and patience all round is called for in this pretty scary climate.

      Personally? I have only, what I consider, a light grasp of these processes, but enough to know that they are real and carry real weight and consequences. Certainly enough to know I’d rather not walk a mile in those shoes. Heh, don’t have the patience and I’d probably wind up banjoing some twat for not simply making stuff happen when it’s needed etc. 🙂

      Nor do I know whether the Scottish government will be successful in what I believe they are attempting to do. What I do believe, is that they will make that attempt. The rest is going to be up to Scotland’s electorate.

      From the FMs programme for government:

      As it stands, the Scottish Government will not recommend to this Parliament that we approve the Bill. We will continue to seek the agreement of the UK government to amendments that will address our concerns. However, in case that proves impossible, we are also considering the option of legislation in this Parliament to secure the necessary continuity of laws in Scotland.

    233. Macart says:

      Mornin’ Nana

      Time for a bit of breakfast reading then. 🙂

    234. Nana says:

      Morning Macart, aye just a little bit!
      There will be a Q&A session afterwards, haha only kidding.

    235. Robert Louis says:

      Giving goose at 0708 am

      I think you are right. What we are starting to see in London and England, is borderline Fascism. With each passing day, our rights are bing trashed, and the process is accelerating.

      People often wonder, how sane normal people, can just sit back, and gradually let people like Eerdogan in Turkey alter ALL their laws over a period of months and years to give themselves full unaccountable power. Well, that is EXACTLY the process going on with each passing day in Westminster. Drip by drip, step by step. Their is no difference, except the killing hasn’t started yet. Journalists who dissent haven’t been jailed. Yet.

      It will not be long until blogs are made illegal, or restricted in some way – in the name of security, of course. A new mantra of ‘either being with us or against us’ will slowly arise, and that itself, will then feed into demands for punitive punishments for those who dissent. We already have those who oppose brexit called saboteurs, described openly as ‘unpatriotic’. THAT is fascism. That is how it happens. That is the process. Each step feeds the next, until gradually, all rights are removed.

      People naively assume, ‘but of course that can’t happen here, I mean we’re not like that in this country’. That is what people assumed in Germany in the 1930’s. They were normal people, they weren’t ‘different’ in some way. Just take a look at the angry racist rhetoric that is now commonplace among the political class, and is no longer even condemned. Just look at how many freedoms have been removed already. Just look at how each person is tracked, recorded, and traced every single day. Even the hated East German Stasi could never have dreamed this up.

      People in England and the Labour party need to sniff the freaking coffee, and wake up, before it is too late. This is very, very real.

    236. artyhetty says:

      Re; crazycat@2.02am

      Sounds positively Kafkaesque. Or maybe just fascist. So a charity cannot spend money on campaigns ‘deemed to be political’ in the run up to an election, but when a snap election is called, it still applies. So, pointing out child poverty, due to Tory, red tory sanctioned austerity, could land a charity in court, anytime. Charities will need a very good crystal ball or have to employ mind readers, so they don’t land in deep water for not knowing when a snap election is going to be called.

      The UKok is turning into a regime, if not already and it is the stuff of nightmares.

      The weather in little britain suits the mood today. Dark, sodden and chilling.

      Dennis Skinner, voting for the tory repeal bill, because he has always voted that way. His and others’ bad habits are very dangerous and will impact on our most vulnerable, and have dreadful consequences for Scotland, unless we get out of the disgusting so called union, asap.

    237. Ken500 says:

      If reasonable compromise on EU membership (re Brexit) brings Independence. It is worth it. Discussion on full membership can be made later, quite easily. To not compromise and be pragmatic could delay and deny Independence. Ie be cutting off your nose to spite your face for those who believe and have always believe in Independence (in the EU) for Scotland.

      The (SNP) Scottish Gov are following a course which could lead to full membership EU (quite quickly) after a YES vote. Compromising being pragmatic on full EU membership so as not to delay or compromise the next Independence Ref. Getting the YES vote is the most important one for the Scottish economy and the people. Then dealing with full EU membership. The EU is totally supportive of membership for most countries to meet the criteria. Especially who have been full members for years, Fast track, They realise and know what is going on. Extremely savvy.

      What is the best solution Independence with EU concessionary rights. Or no Independence. It delayed. Still tied to the UK. Independence and democracy is.the prize. It this means concessions on full EU membership at this time which can be changed later. Or no YES Independence Ref. That is the compromises. Independence with EU concessions on full membership. Or outside in the cold and not Independent. Still tied to a corrupt, appalling. evil Westminster lying criminals who are trying to destroy the UK/world economy. They have been lying, falsifying accounts and destroying the Scottish economy for nearly 100 years and before. (Universal suffrage 1928).

      Every other political Party in Scotland is complicit in the conspiracy by not completely supporting the SNP and the Scottish Gov. They will reap what they sow. The total oblivion of the Scottish/world economy. They are more interested in their bottom line than the welfare of the society and the people. There will be a backlash and they will be gone into oblivion and beyond. The Tory/Unionists and the rest are evil. Absolutely appalling behaviour. Corrupt fakes governance. Unnecessarily causing hardship and misery for too many innocent people with their evil policies.

      The unionist/green parties are party to the Evil. Totally unrepentant. They can rot in hell. Playing false games and posteuring while people suffer major hardship. They could cause the loss of Ibdependence. The major goal for further improvement and moving forwards in confidence.

      The ones who support Independence and constantly criticises the SNP, are even worse, False. The SNP are the only one’s rationally who can bring/give Scotland Independence. They have done so well with the Scottish economy and brought Scotland forward already. Despite major obstacles. Stood up for Scotland and society, in every way. Made Scotland more equal and fairer. Looked after the vulnerable more. Could do even better. The difference they have made to Scotland in spite of unionist total wicked intransigence and lies. A 20Billion discrepancy. To endorse. alternative majority supported programmes.

      The only way forward, is backing the SNP all the way with full support without wavering. Totally – until Independence is won. It is the only way forward. The only sensible outcome for Scotland to move forward. While other political Parties routinely, with duplicity, try to destroy the Scottish/world economy, The SNP always work within the Law. They have right on their side,

      The IndyRef is coming soon. Be prepared to go out and do everything possible to win it. Whatever it takes. Be there, The Indy Ref only requires one question (with residential qualification 2/3 years if possible). Do not to confuse the issue. It is too important. Other matters can be deal with by representative endorsement and Manifesto. The helicopters are increasingly flying overhead. A sign of positive improvement in the economy. Bring it one.

      In a 62.5 million population. How could 100,000 hard working migrant workers be responsible for lower wages? It is a numerical statistically impossibility. Ie total nonsense. Caroline Flinn etc are absolutely ignorant and incompetent. Absolutely not up to the job . People totally promoted beyond their capabilities. They do not have the attitude, skills or application. More worried about their bottom line. Than the danger of Brexit. The mystery is why people vote for them and their lies. Why can’t they see through it. It is so obvious.

    238. Smallaxe says:

      Labour MP Dennis Skinner branded a ‘SCAB’ by Corbyn fanatics after defying leader’s orders;
      http://archive.is/TpsTH

    239. galamcennalath says:

      This article in Vanity Fair pretty much hits the nail on the head.

      ” THERESA MAY TAKES HER DARKEST, MOST DESPERATE TURN YET

      A cabal of right-wing Conservatives are attempting to seize power in the name of the people—a maneuver with a chilling historical echo. “

      The world is now watching the UK and collectively saying WTF!

      It seems significant when a publication like Vanity Fair considers that the UK is about to follow Hitler and the Nazis’ actions in 1933 with the Enabling Act.

      https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/09/theresa-may-takes-her-darkest-most-desperate-turn-yet

    240. Smallaxe says:

      Grenfell: names of wealthy empty-home owners in borough revealed;
      http://archive.is/U8bmG

      While the government was bulldozing through democracy, it also decided to bulldoze through an iconic UK landmark [IMAGES];
      https://www.thecanary.co/2017/09/12/government-bulldozing-democracy-also-decided-bulldoze-iconic-uk-landmark-images/

      Last week, a desperate Theresa May phoned Donald Trump to beg for help;
      https://www.thecanary.co/2017/09/12/last-week-desperate-theresa-may-phoned-donald-trump-beg-help/

      UK government oversees a 635% increase in arms sales to regimes that torture, abuse and kill citizens;
      https://www.thecanary.co/2017/09/11/uk-government-oversees-635-increase-arms-sales-regimes-torture-abuse-kill-citizens/

    241. Socrates MacSporran says:

      yesindyref2

      FFS man, are you really as stupid as you appear?

      The Scottish Government is playing a blinder; for a start, they are not interrupting their enemy – the Westminster Government, while they are making the biggest mistake they have ever made – pursuing their hard Brexit.

      When push comes to shove, and the proposed Brexit agreement goes for approval to the 27 other EU countries – the, and only then, will the SG call for Indyref2.

      Because they will then be able to say: “We tried, we tried everything” – then list the things they attempted to do, all of which were repulsed by Westminster.

      Then, they can say to the Scottish people: “All else has failed, Westminster refuses to listen, they are trying to drag Scotland out of Europe, in spite of over 60% of the Scottish people voting remain – there is now no alternative to Independence, please back us in this.”

      Westminster will have no answer – they will have closed every door, ignored every potential get-out; they cannot pull another Vow – we win.

      And if, God forbid, I am wrong and there are still sufficient “Proud Scots But”, able to somehow produce another No vote – then, Hell mend them. They will lose at Indyref3, or Indyref4, or however many it takes.

      But, if we fail this time, I am quite happy in that, being in my eighth decade, I will not in all probability have to endure too-much of the horrors that will be coming our way under continued Westminster rule.

    242. Ken500 says:

      Previous double post. In panic mode. Desperation.

      Thanks Rev Stu for keeping people sane (or saner). In a desperate situation. Thanks a billion for putting up with all the intimidation. It can’t always be easy. Standing up for right over might, forever. Good against bad. Good against EVEL. Thanks forever. You can make a difference. An ultraistic person. It helps to make things better.

    243. yesindyref2 says:

      @Breeks
      The problem is this

      “percentage probability” – not yet certain
      “SNP know” – subjective not certain
      “inevitability of Brexit” – still not certain
      “looks thoroughly inevitable” – not certain
      “Iraq / Kuwait” – eh? this is Scotland, stick to the point
      “appeasing ” – Did you not read that link given, with the SNP invoking the formal procedure regards Rule 9B.3.3(d) of the Parliament’s Standing Orders 16? It doesn’t “appease”, it formally and poltiiley, sutiable for being used in court if neccessary, rejects the current EU Withdrawal Bill a far as an LCM is concerned.

      The Scottish Government is acting exactly correctly. For all anyone could know at this stage, May could resign next week, call an election, get up and beg the EU not to kick out the UK, declare war on Hammond’a Martians. join the SNP, but specifically:

      a). The UK Government could implement substantial changes to the EU Withdrawal Bill, so that the current devolution settlement where powers not specifically reserved, are devolved – i.e. respond fully to that SG response under Rule 9B.3.3(d) of the Parliament’s Standing Orders 16 which I resume you read thoroughly. That allows that Bill to go through, but still leaves the results of negotiation of Brexit terms.

      b). The EU Withdrawal Bill could still be voted down or rejected by the Lords and fail next time through the HoC, meaning that the UK does not elave the EU – or not untiul a new Bill was taken though the UK Parliament.

      c). The UK Government could implement the ScotGov’s position paper of last Decemeber, which would require devolution of immigration, trade, human rights – and many other powers, to Scotland, so that Scotalnd could continue in the single market, while remaining part of the UK. Which wouldn’t last long, such massive devolution wouldn’t work.

      and d). If Indy Ref 2 is called too soon, the UK Government could use it as an excuse to delay Brexit, even to cancel Brexit “Internal constitutional problems”. Then the SG is left with egg on its faces, an unneccessary referendum which will fail.

      Indy Ref 2 can’t be run on a “probability”, it has to be run on a certainty, the certainty that Scotland will exit the EU within the UK, and that is still not certain.

    244. Colin Alexander says:

      Ghillie says:
      13 September, 2017 at 5:13 am
      “Oh Breeks. And the rest.

      What I believe we are witnessing is the roiling of the perfect and truly horrific storm.

      EVERY reasonable concession and compromise has been offered.”

      ———————————————————————

      What mandate did the Scot Govt have to offer concessions? They are supposed to be our servants, not our rulers.

      There was a democratic decision made by the people of Scotland who voted Remain in the EU.

      That should be the Scot Govt’s only position, representing and defending the democratically expressed sovereign will of the people.

    245. Legerwood says:

      Petra says:
      13 September, 2017 at 1:51 am
      @ Legerwood at 12:18am ……. ‘Tidal power scheme in Pentland Firth.’

      “”….Meanwhile I see they’ve now passed the construction of the 1.8 mile road tunnel at UNESCO status Stonehenge costing £1.6 billion (and the rest no doubt). Just wondering if we’ll have to pay a share of that? Of ‘National’ interest and all of that kind of GERS stuff, rather guff or cr*p as Richard Murphy would say.””

      ………….

      Yes, I noticed that story to and thought exactly the same as you did. How much are we contributing?

    246. Legerwood says:

      Alex Waugh says:
      13 September, 2017 at 4:47 am
      Meanwhile, one of this morning’s stories on MSN is that, according to a study commissioned by ‘Women’s Hour’ from an actual research company (as opposed to some arsehole), Islington is the worst place in the UK for women to live while the best is …da,da, DAH!!!…East Dunbartonshire. Shall we all hold our breath waiting for that to appear on the front pages?”””
      …………

      This story was reported yesterday in the online editions of newspapers and there was an item about it on Reporting Scotland.

      The Herald has reported it in today’s edition of the newspapers.

      It has had pretty wide coverage.

    247. Ken500 says:

      Dennis Skinner is past his sell by date. Out of time and out of date. In any ipother profession he would have been retired long ago. Or retired to the Lords. Last Jan standing long ago. More utter incompetence.

      There will be plenty of other occasions soon to take down the Tory/Gov. Let’s hope they get their act together. They are already repercussions for their own constituency voters. The majority in the UK want to stay in the EU. Not watch a UK Giv destroy democracy and the democratic process. Never interrupt them when they are making a catastrophe mistake, people should be actually looking on the bright side. The silver lining on every cloud. Them bringing about their own demise. Peaked. Mucking up at every turn. A total embarrassment. Out of date, out of time and out of touch. Time to move on. Their own supporters can see to that and try to bring them into line. Good luck with that. Good riddance and good bye. Hold the lift boats. Stop the world they want to get off. The majority want to survive. The tsunami coming down the line diverted. A close escape.

      Who said 2017 would be boring? The only time they got it wrong. Especially for political anoraks. Might be better to take a step back and let life get in the way. Without the panic or desperation. Calm the anxiety and exercise or meditate, where possible. Take on overall view. Nit such negativity. Cup half full. Not empty. Get out and help it is good for the soul. Music.

    248. Cal says:

      Well that’s a strange turn of events. After the abolition of the NI Assembly, I thought it was going to be Scotland and Wales next but it turns out they’ve cut out the middle men,so to speak, and just abolished the English parliament instead! With nothing to do, presumably all the non-Tory mps can just go home. Apart from the ones on those rigged commitees of course.

      Everything that is done from now on will be to ensure that the “will of the people”,as expressed in the EU referendum, is fulfilled – the indefinite postponing of the next general election, the abolition of the Scottish parliament, the forced expulsion of EU citizens, the shutting down of seditious blogs etc…you get the idea.

    249. Ken500 says:

      Rev Stu is really busy. More than usual. The trolls will be dealt with soon? To promote the Independence and importance of the website,

    250. louis.b.argyll says:

      Breeks.. ‘Do you think Kuwait should have waited until it was destroyed before appealing for international help.’

      Er, that’s a shallow reading of history there.

      The British and Ottoman Empires CARVED UP KUWAIT/IRAQ DURING TREATY NEGOCIATIONS.

      The PEOPLE of Kuwait were, and remain an afterthought, subjected still, to Royal supremacy. Our rush to protect Kuwait was to save the Crown Princes wealth, NOT the ancient sovereignty of the peoples they currently rule over.

    251. Smallaxe says:

      Trident protester Brian Quail faces pension battle ahead of trial;
      http://archive.is/xjyVj

      Become a .scot
      Domain Name: @.scot £48 per annum
      http://www.calico.scot/

    252. Ken500 says:

      They have got Johnston out of the way. Quite snappy. Another little foreign trip. To review the harm. Keeping out of harms way. The pantomime. The rocky horror show. Desperation. Even greater widening girth. The ‘good life’. Lies and manipulation.

    253. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 13 September, 2017 at 12:55 am:

      “Precisely why the legislation for Indy Ref 2 had to be put through, to show the EU Scotland was serious, a point of course unionist agitators – and others – ignore.
      After a YES vote, I think the EU-27 will be ready for Scotland. Ready and eager.”

      There have been several EU officials and EU member state leaders who have said as much but that too goes either unreported, misreported or played down in the SMSM and United Kingdom broadcasters and even more so by BBC Jockland.

      Remember also that when Scottish MSP, Alyn Smith, got a standing ovation in the EU debating chamber when making an impassioned pro-Scotland speech it went mostly unreported in the UK media.

      This clip of the happenings within the EU chamber begins with how the EU parliament actually behaves in regard to the UK and Alyn’s speech then follows.

      Standing ovations in the EU chamber are almost unheard of. The groundwork for Alyn’s work was done long, long ago by that wonderful lady the European Parliament entitled long ago as, “Madam Écosse”, our very own Winnie Ewing.

      But as usual these things are very much not often mentioned in the United Kingdom ,in any news outlets, never mind by just BBC Jockland, but be assured the EU has had Westminster’s measure long, long ago.

      By the way if you allow the YouTube clip that follow to continue with the YouTube following batch of clips, after the cited one stops, you may find your day is made a little bit brighter.

      Wingers, (including our several pet “whingers”), I give you: Ta! Da!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9tguXe9Kg4

      Enjoy: I personally did enjoy while replaying these clips once again.

      They may open a few pairs of eyes among some who comment whinge here on Wings. Welcome to the real World of the EU as opposed to the one so often misreported on, “Misreporting Scotland”, of an often driech Scottish morn.

    254. Valerie says:

      @ Cal

      NI Stormont not abolished. It can resume any time, but the two sides won’t give way.

      SF say DUP haven’t delivered on previous commitments. DUP blame SF for game playing.

    255. Tinto Chiel says:

      “People naively assume, ‘but of course that can’t happen here, I mean we’re not like that in this country’. That is what people assumed in Germany in the 1930’s. They were normal people, they weren’t ‘different’ in some way.”

      You’re quite right regarding the approaching Perpetual Tory Dictatorship, Robert Louis. Most people who are uninterested in politics just don’t see the seriousness of recent events. They’re like the lobsters who are put in tepid water at the start of the process and think everything’s fine. By the time they become even dimly aware of the danger it’s already too late.

      I was at one of my daughter’s last night and was amazed that there was hardly any mention on TV of events in parliament on Monday, and certainly no analysis of what it all meant for democracy. What was the sainted Jon Snow doing?

      Even more O/T: Nick “Pants On Fire” Robinson putting the boot into social media this morning on Pravdasound4: it’s all fake news, abuse and driven by filthy commercialism, he says (subtext: “Trust only in the BBC. Would I lie to you?”).

      Soon they will clamp down on all the sites they fear and then we’ll need one of BDTT’s “You have reached the end of the internet” signs.

      Noticed the Scottish Daily Mail’s headline today screaming about 4000 sepsis deaths in Scotland. The least in % terms in the UK but I don’t think that matters to them.

      *beelin’*

    256. jfngw says:

      @meg merrilees 11:49

      They were abstentions, not votes for the bill. You cannot deduct abstentions from the for vote as they don’t exist, you can only deduct the seven that voted for the bill, so the for would have been 319.

      Those deducting 20 from 326 and adding it to 290, are just using wishful thinking.

    257. Iain says:

      McLaren doesn’t have an academic qualification beyond his first degree. Crucially, he doesn’t have a PhD – the usual confirmation of ability to conduct research which is an objective and verifiable contribution to knowledge. It’s very unusual for a university research department to employ someone to do research without that sine qua non.

      I reckon he was taken on in a subordinate capacity, and in time his lack of qualification was curiously forgotten.

    258. louis.b.argyll says:

      Thanks for that ovation link R.P..

      And while I’m at it, thanks Rev, we’ve got your back.

      We are only judged as
      ‘vile cyber abusers’ by
      the tabloid shaped standards
      set by our imperialist fascist
      ruling elite and their
      licensed media partners.

      ‘PHILOSOPHICAL OUTRAGE’ IS NOT SINISTER. It’s what drives revolutionary progress.

      Scotland is being abused.

    259. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Yes, the EU is officially limited in what it can do at the moment, as the UK is the member state and it has no relation with Scotland apart from the EU regional relationships.

      But after a YES, with Independence pending, it can do a lot, specially when the UK is kicking its own backside out the door.

    260. Ken500 says:

      McLaren and the cronies were all Labour Party members – promoted beyond their capabilities, That is why they joined the Party. The Labour Mafia. Brainwashed from the day they were born. They do quite well out of it. They can’t count or read a balance sheet. Advocate destructive policies, They have been bringing Scotland /UK/world economy down since 1928. Universal sufferage. Along with the rest of the unionist/green parties. The are promoted beyond their capabilities. Compulsive liars and ‘pycho bastards’. Their own description. Unbalance and non pragmatic. Riddled with dogmatic ideology. Keep on repeating the same mistakes over and over again. Some people never learn.

    261. Stoker says:

      TC wrote:

      “Most people who are uninterested in politics just don’t see the seriousness of recent events.”

      100% Spot on! And most folk don’t come anywhere near places like WOS – They “Have better things to do with their time!”

      TC also wrote:
      ” Nick “Pants On Fire” Robinson putting the boot into social media this morning on Pravdasound4: it’s all fake news, abuse and driven by filthy commercialism,”

      Has anyone told the liar that WOS is a not-for-profit set-up, operating without adverts and exposing corrupt liars. Oh that’s right, he’ll already know that seen as he’s one of those liars WOS has helped expose, isn’t he? Silly me!

    262. Robert Peffers says:

      13 September, 2017 at 1:51 am:

      “How much are we contributing?”

      You will be contributing exactly the same percentage as the Englanders as Westminster designates Stonehenge as, “A National Monument”, like, for example, The Greenwich Observatory, The Admiralty Arch, Buck House, The National Museums, The National Galleries, The National Theatre, National Ballet, National Opera, National this that and the other but does not include such as the Falls of Glomach:-

      http://www.nts.org.uk/Visit/Falls-Of-Glomach

      or the new Forth Crossing but does include Tower Bridge in London. It does not include the SS Waverley but does include Nelson’s Victory and several old restored WWII RN Ships anchored in the River Thames in London.

      If it is classed as a National Asset we all pay for it even if it is only of benefit to London tourism.

    263. Giving Goose says:

      Regarding Nana’s link at 0717am and the story about the Red Hand Commando making an application under section 4 of the Terrorism Act 2000 for the group to be unbanned; this is deeply worrying.

      Why would a Terrorist Organisation want to be unbanned? If you consider this for a minute, it simply does not make any sense. It should be banned for ever.

      However, if you a Government that wishes to have a “toolkit” available to deal with dissent, then why not have a legal organisation of stormtroopers available to willingly do your dirty work.

      If Amber Rudd allows this to go through, then it speaks volumes about the Tory embryonic dictatorship and the influence of the DUP.

    264. Breeks says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      13 September, 2017 at 8:57 am
      @Breeks
      The problem is this

      “percentage probability” – not yet certain
      “SNP know” – subjective not certain
      “inevitability of Brexit” – still not certain
      “looks thoroughly inevitable” – not certain
      “Iraq / Kuwait” – eh? this is Scotland, stick to the point….

      Sovereignty = certainty.

      I don’t see SNP playing a blinder. I truly wish I did, but I don’t.

      The EU is playing a blinder. It set out in days, if not hours, its bargaining position, its formal negotiation protocols, its formal exit protocols, it underlined the sanctity of the Four Freedoms, and very quickly asserted the UK would have to sort out its bar bill before leaving. As far as my memory permits, the EU has neither departed from nor compromised an inch from these parameters.

      Over the channel however, we enjoy all the talk of hard Brexit, soft Brexit, dirty Brexit, permanent Trade Deal, interim trade deal, access to the Free Market, hard Borders, soft Borders, transitional Customs Union, the interminable procrastination… the whole Brexit diatribe which has gone on for months while an increasing bemused EU has looked on in disbelief, incredulous at the British self delusion. The only thing which all the talk of a soft Brexit threatens to win for the UK is a Nobel Prize for fiction.

      The UK’s Brexit negotiations began with EU setting the agenda, and it was the self same agenda and negotiating protocols which the EU articulated in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit result, but blithely ignored by the British.

      If anyone is playing a blinder, it is the patient bureaucrats in Brussels who have read the rule book, know the rule book, and know that when the spoiled Brat of Europe finally wearies himself of all his histrionics, arm waving and protestations, that his exit from Europe will be perfunctory, ordered, and defined by that very ordinary rule book.

      The hotheaded UK chose to leave the EU club, and rather than simply leave with some degree of decorum and dignity, it gripes and whines, disputes its bill, and demands continued access to club facilities and privileges. The club itself is left spellbound the breathtaking presumptive arrogance of it all. You have chosen to leave, so just get on with it. We are bored of you.

      Here in Scotland, we ridicule the UK for wanting a soft Brexit which we know is never going to happen, but while thankfully much less arrogant, we then suffer a similar self-delusion that the fruits of Soft-Brexitism denied the UK might somehow be available to a less than sovereign Scottish “Region” of the UK. Once again, the EU is left scratching its head.

      That isn’t going to happen Scotland!!!

      The EU you might recall did indeed point us towards transitional “holding pen” conditions which could and would be extended to Scotland AFTER Scotland was committed to and transiting towards sovereign statehood.

      UNLESS Scotland seizes control of its sovereign fate, then we lie beyond the reach of the EU to help us. For the love of God, please take off our British delusional googles, and listen to those EU pronouncements after Brexit.

      If we cannot win a referendum before Brexit happens, then abandon that referendum and win the day, save our country from disaster with our sovereignty.

      But, please, please, please, in our darkness of misunderstanding, please, let us not destroy all claim and hold we have on our ancient popular sovereignty by selling it out because of a bullying ignoramus in Westminster.

    265. Valerie says:

      Agree with comments on here that majority of people don’t know or would grasp this weeks significant events. Tinto has a good analogy with boiling a lobster.

      We are at breaking point, because it’s our daily sustenance, and we are sickened at the cumulative effects, and implications, AND if we didn’t forecast it, we certainly read the Rev or others years ago, that did forecast it.

      @Giving Goose

      That terror organisation are now emboldened by the current environment, it’s their time, they have skulked in the shadows long enough.

      Look at the yanks, and how free the Nazis are.

      Or, perhaps they were tipped off to apply?

    266. Ken500 says:

      For 326 Against 290

      7 Labour voted For. If they had voted against? 15 Labour abstained. Total (22) If 7 Labour has voted for put up Against by 7 Lowered For by 7. If 15 abstainers had voted against put up by 15.

      A Tory Independent? Voted against.

      8 Tories abstained. If they had voted against put up against by 8.

      Mhairi Black (BBC) abstained ?

      Labour Party possible Change – 326 minus 7 = 319

      Against 290 – plus 7 + 15 (Labour abstainers) + 8 (Tory abstainers) + 1 SNP (abstain? Mistake)

      290 + 31 = 321. (possible win?) 2

      4 MP did not vote chairing the committee stage. 2 Tories 2 Labour.

      Not looking good for any Tory future majority, as things get more difficult. Examining the nitty, gritty. Being held to account. Defeat coming down the line?

      616 + 28 (24 abstaining + 4 non voters – committee stagers) = 644 total ?

    267. Jack Murphy says:

      OT.The Tories in VANITY FAIR.. HIVE.
      “Ominous Signs

      THERESA MAY TAKES HER DARKEST, MOST DESPERATE TURN YET.

      A cabal of right-wing Conservatives are attempting to seize power in the name of the people—a maneuver with a chilling historical echo………”
      By Henry Porter.

      I want absolutely nothing to do with this Toxic Dangerous Tory Party. Down there or up here. NOTHING!

      https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/09/theresa-may-takes-her-darkest-most-desperate-turn-yet

    268. Valerie says:

      Just a follow-up comment about the Red Hand Commando terror group applying to Amber Rudd for deproscription.

      Checked a few Irish Tweeters I know are sensible to see if they were discussing. They are!

      Their take on it is that its a not very well disguised threat to the Tories. Pay out our £1B, or there will be gangs and terrorists on the streets of NI soon.

      Makes sense.

    269. Clapper57 says:

      Anyone see Victoria this morning….article on Scotland to ban smacking children………..if you did you would have seen a certain Richard Lucas who was introduced as someone who started a newly formed organisation ….think it was ‘The Scottish family party’………funny that as I thought he was a UKIP candidate in Joanne Cherry’s constituency in last election….no mention of that by Victoria…..ho hum the plot thickens…..apparently he is now ex UKIP…isn’t everybody ?

      Perhaps Victoria’s researchers didn’t do enough research on him or his Twitter account to see the cut of his cloth and history….the SNP woman and woman from children’s charity did well though against him…..oh Victoria you really need to vet your guests more……or perhaps you do and he was but another useful idiot to expose the SNPBAD……would have helped if you Victoria had mentioned his history so that viewers could …..see where he was REALLY coming from….

    270. Ken500 says:

      No of Westminster MP’s 650. One for 92,000 people. – Sin Fein MP’s 7 (minus). Could have definitely help bring Tories down. Desperate times bring desperate one off measures? People off the electoral register?

      644 + 6 = 650. Someone is missing? Dead or resigned or by by election coming up? Not voted. Sick. Recent change in seat. Pressed the wrong button. Or wrong about SNP voting. Most possibility. BBC report wrong again.

    271. Ken500 says:

      BBC misreporting?

    272. Free Scotland says:

      Hilarious that the Daily Express calls itself “Voice of the New Scotland.” What planet are these donkeys on?

    273. Ken500 says:

      No period policies. Please A spinner. Cringe. Fringe. Insult. Advocate people have enough resources to cover necessities, successfully.

    274. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      RE: all the mentions of sourcing/designing/printing leaflets.

      I’m surprised nobody has mentioned

      http://www.indyposterboy.scot/

      who has been producing material since the indyref 1 campaign. There’s an example on the main page but there are plenty pages in the menu on the left of that page to explore. For example, “Page 9 – Tell them the news they’re not getting – A6 Postcards”

      http://www.indyposterboy.scot/tell-them-the-news9.asp

      There’s always new stuff being added to the different categories.

    275. Ken500 says:

      Breeks breaks. Nonsense.

      Stop Nazi comments. Inappropriate yet. Misappropriate. Hysterical. No comparison. Sods Law.

    276. Proud Cybernat says:

      Every region in Scotland voted to REMAIN in the EU.

      Every Scottish Tory MP disregarded the wishes of their constituents and voted in support of the Tory Enabling Act (enables the Tories, disables everyone else).

      Rutherglen and Hamilton West MP, Gerard Killen (SLab), abstained.

      Treacherous gits – every last one of them.

    277. Its interesting to see the comradeship which exists in the Labour party under Corbyn.

      While I have never rated Dennis Skinner, I find the Corbynistas calling him a scab for voting with the Tories on the great repeal bill.

      That’s rather like the pot calling the Kettle black, or have they Conveniently forgotten, that Corbyn and the parliamentary Labour party voted with the Tories for article 50 and Brexit?

      So by their own logic, doesn’t that make Corbyn a scab as well?

    278. Ken500 says:

      SNP members should watch about printing inappropriate leaflets, in SNP name because it must be approved for legal measures/consideration. Limit to how much can go out etc. Electoral Law. Official Budget limitations Could be classed as electoral fraud. That is why the SNP (Gov) is limited in actions (some advocate) Illegal under Gov regulations/rules. A responsible Party in power is required to govern in the interest of all the people. Not just party members. Two different responsibilities. Separate rights and responsibilities. Some people do not know the difference.

      One a deliberately flawed, imposed, corrupted electoral system. Rigged for a certain outcome. Unionism will prevail in any circumstance even if it is broken and ruins the economy, equality, fairness and happiness. A complete utter failure and contamination of supposed Democracy. When elected representatives disobeys the Law. Democracy fails.

      One as a minority Gov (not enough full majority). The other as leaders/head of a political Party. Different rights and responsibilities. Some people do not appreciate or know the difference. Ignorant or deliberate. The unionist ignore it. They act illegally. Poor policies and lies. Deceit and duplicity. Some people do not appreciate or know the difference.

      eg 92,000 missing LibDem leaflets. Printed but no distributed. Aye right. Illegal under electoral Law. Unfair completion. Bare faced liars. Getting way with it. For illegal electoral advantage. A whole constituency order. Every post code targeted. Illegal.

      Individual level as an individual ok. Local. Small scale. Or other folk. Limited. Not affiliated to a political Party or public campaign. Official YES campaign has to be registered and follow the (electoral) guidelines. Under the Law.

    279. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Just what is your REAL motive behind your claim the SNP is doing nothing? The evidence of your post here on Wings indicates it is to discredit the SNP and Scottish Government and, by implication, every single voter who voted them into power. Are you perhaps Rock, Colin Alexander or one of the others who falsely claim to support independence but do nothing whatsoever that supports that claim.”

      Folks, I’m getting really sick of this shit.

      If you suspect the motives of another poster, don’t get drawn into arguing with them. That would, after all, be what they want.

      If you think someone’s trolling constantly, contact me and I’ll decide.

      Otherwise, I’m going to start putting EVERYONE, on all sides, who gets involved in this sort of tedious witch-huntery on the pre-moderation list, for everyone else’s benefit.

    280. Petra says:

      @ Socrates MacSporran says at 8:56 am …. ”The Scottish Government is playing a blinder; for a start, they are not interrupting their enemy – the Westminster Government, while they are making the biggest mistake they have ever made – pursuing their hard Brexit. When push comes to shove, and the proposed Brexit agreement goes for approval to the 27 other EU countries – then, and only then, will the SG call for Indyref2. Because they will then be able to say: “We tried, we tried everything” – then list the things they attempted to do, all of which were repulsed by Westminster. Then, they can say to the Scottish people: “All else has failed, Westminster refuses to listen, they are trying to drag Scotland out of Europe, in spite of over 60% of the Scottish people voting remain – there is now no alternative to Independence, please back us in this.”

      Spot on Socrates and add to that the SNP outlining the Westminster fascist moves such as the potential of an ‘Enabling Act’ / rigged Committees.

      I posted this earlier and to my mind it shows that we are still on course for Indyref2 next year.

      ‘In the National (12/09) article, ‘FM calls for unity over devolution’, it quotes Nicola Sturgeon as saying to an audience in Edinburgh on Monday … “Everyone knows that I believe that becoming an Independent country would be the best future for Scotland and also as I said in June, at the end of the Brexit process I believe that the people of Scotland should have a choice about our future direction as a country. Indeed at it’s heart, Independence is the natural extension of the principle that decisions should be taken in Scotland, and that doing so improves the lives of the people who live here.”

      Meanwhile we have the usual culprits on here trying to, basically, turn everyone against the SNP because they know that the SNP is the ONLY political party in Scotland that is going to achieve Independence for us.

      Who needs to watch the BBC or read the Express, Sun, Mail, etc, to get your fill of anti-Independence propaganda? Make it easy for yourself. Just visit Wings over Scotland totally permeated now with an ever increasing number of Unionist supporting posters. Not too difficult to spot by the way.

    281. Ken500 says:

      Corbyn voted against his Party policies consistently. That is why he is suspect. Who would stay in a political Party for over 30 years disagreeing with every major policy? Flawed. Troughing inconsistencies. Flip flapping. Might be alright for London? Cause less damage there. Labour record of Gov is extremely flawed. Like all unionist/green parties, inconsistent policies. Often ignored manifestos. Lies and consistent conceit and arrogance. Poseurs pontification. Most of the Westminster members are aligned with coming from another planet. Like another class. Out of touch by design. No representative at all. A certain type of person. ‘Psycho bastards’. Their own description.

    282. louis.b.argyll says:

      But it’s such a fine line Rev.

    283. Petra says:

      @ Rev. Stuart Campbell says at 12:25 pm …. ”Folks, I’m getting really sick of this shit. If you suspect the motives of another poster, don’t get drawn into arguing with them. That would, after all, be what they want. If you think someone’s trolling constantly, contact me and I’ll decide.”

      Oh well, it looks as though it’s time, high time, for anyone who has real concerns about the motives of certain posters on here compiling their list and getting it off to Stu.

    284. Auld Rock says:

      One word for it – SHITE.

      Auld Rock

    285. Maryscot says:

      Watching PM’s questions on Sky news. Fuming – Mayhem is running Scotland down at every chance she gets. SNP not delivering for the Scottish people, bad healthcare etc. Want to throw something at the tv !! Hate her so much.

    286. Macart says:

      @Maryscot

      She’s desperate and trolling. Store it away for a rainy day.

      We’ll get our chance to repay the favour. 😉

    287. Maryscot says:

      I certainly hope so.

    288. mike cassidy says:

      Not that I’m trying to nurture the tinfoil hat thinking –

      http://archive.is/q3X8P

    289. ronnie anderson says:

      Rev 12.25

      Its no me they bigger boy’s dun it an runaway but sure as shit they’ll be back like ah bad smell.

      Contact form at top of page I would suggest you Wingers that are concerned about the Trolls use it DONT FEED THE TROLLS .

    290. Breeks says:

      louis.b.argyll says:
      13 September, 2017 at 9:21 am
      Breeks….Er, that’s a shallow reading of history there.

      The British and Ottoman Empires CARVED UP KUWAIT/IRAQ DURING TREATY NEGOCIATIONS.

      I know all about the Sykes Picot Agreement Louis, but whatever the detail and motivations, when Iraq invaded Kuwait, it was the recognised violation of Kuwaiti sovereign territory which technically untied the UN’s hands and authorised its intervention.

      From the UN Resolution to defend Kuwait – “….Kuwait was faced with the Iraqi invasion, which represented a flagrant violation of the Charter of the United Nations, particularly the provisions of Article 2 (3 and 4). The speaker further stated that it was incumbent on the Council to shoulder its responsibilities and to protect Kuwait, whose security, sovereignty and territorial integrity had been violated….”

      Bad enough that neither the International community, UN, nor Westminster currently recognises Scotland’s constitutional sovereignty, but when we don’t even respect our own sovereignty amongst ourselves, then rest assured, nobody else is going to recognise it for us.

      Personally, even short of a democratic mandate to do it, I would have hoped the Scottish Government would have found time to formally petition the UN to have Scotland’s sovereignty INSIDE the UK recognised, not persay as a UDI, but at the very least have the weird UK constitutional anomaly recognised AS a constitutional anomaly, and have the principle of Scotland’s sovereignty enshrined, and our intentions to defend every inch of our sovereignty telegraphed in no uncertain terms to any and all “parties” who might attempt to usurp claim to it.

    291. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      crazycat @ 02:02,

      I salute you. I have never been so ably or comprehensively refuted! (I can’t help but feel you were waiting for some reasonable innocent to fall into that little trap! =grin=)

      Yikes! How completely contrary to reasonableness is that? One’s first reaction is the obvious one, namely to declare that the Law is an ass, but I suspect that in this case the intention to hobble apolitical interventions was by no means accidental. (And of course the poor old Electoral Commission will take the hit, not the politicos who contrive electoral law to protect themselves and no-one else.)

      One could of course deliberately provoke a crisis by risking a violation in the hope that such a manifold miscarriage of justice would cause such a popular reaction to provoke a change.

      Of course, if we had a written constitution such as the US 1st amendment guaranteeing free speech, such a nebulous suppression would be declared invalid before the ink on the law had even dried.

      One also wonders if there is a way round this by creative thinking. Newspapers aren’t affected, are they? They seem to be able to pump out BritNat propaganda on a daily basis without hindrance, all in the name of “free speech”. Free (ie. gratis) newspapers also exist, and are commonly put through people’s doors without offending the Majesty of the Law.

      So maybe a “leaflet” should just declare itself a newspaper, and problem solved!

    292. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Petra @ 01:20,

      That last little afterthought that because of the problems in Spain we’d be better in EFTA doesn’t survive the light of day, I’m afraid. The whole thrust of BritNat propaganda is that the EU is overweening and overrides the sovereignty of poor wee countries like the UK, yet here, as with Scotland while within the UK, we have a demonstration of exactly the opposite. The EU is obliged to respect national sovereignty, even when we might well prefer it took a more proactive role.

      The EU is a confederation of co-operating independent nation states, not a federation with a unifying constitution that enforces substantial convergence as, for example, in the USA.

      It’s typical of the poisonous nature of BritNat propaganda that we have to continually keep a clear head as to the realities both of Scottish independence and the European Union. As we see again and again, both are condemned out of hand whether they do or they don’t.

    293. Ron Maclean says:

      Accusations of trolling often follow an inability to put forward coherent replies to relevant questions.

    294. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Ronnie Anderson –

      For the purposes of efficient filing, I don’t regard Rock as a cheddar cheese & pickle roll, he’s just a profoundly annoying prick.

      And I don’t file him under ‘R’ either. He’s under ‘C’.

      On which note, ‘c’ you Saturday!

      😉

    295. Dorothy Devine says:

      Speaking of Saturday , I’m not going to make it , so would somebody find a slightly sonsy old lady and take her along instead?

      I will be on Arran with my gorgeous granddaughter but my thoughts will be in Freedom Square!

    296. Petra says:

      @ Robert J. Sutherland says at 2:54 pm …. ”Petra that last little afterthought that because of the problems in Spain we’d be better in EFTA doesn’t survive the light of day, I’m afraid. The whole thrust of BritNat propaganda is that the EU is overweening and overrides the sovereignty of poor wee countries like the UK, yet here, as with Scotland while within the UK, we have a demonstration of exactly the opposite. The EU is obliged to respect national sovereignty, even when we might well prefer it took a more proactive role.

      The EU is a confederation of co-operating independent nation states, not a federation with a unifying constitution that enforces substantial convergence as, for example, in the USA.

      It’s typical of the poisonous nature of BritNat propaganda that we have to continually keep a clear head as to the realities both of Scottish independence and the European Union. As we see again and again, both are condemned out of hand whether they do or they don’t.”

      I totally agree with you Robert. I’m 100% for us applying for full EU membership, however if we hit any problems or see signs of a long delay, for whatever reason, I’d be happy to see us joining EFTA following Independence as a transition to joining the EU. EFTA with four members only to deal with and ensuring, hopefully, that we would have continuous membership to remaining in the single market. On the latter point it would seem that this is not straightforward either, as Iceland has indicated that we could only start applying to join EFTA after we become independent and be outside of the single market for an ”indeterminate period.” Indeterminate? A month? A year?

      However I’m not going to brood on the maybe Aye, maybe Naws of the matter. I’ve got great (but not blind) faith in Nicola Sturgeon doing what’s right for Scotland, so I think it’s a case of wait and see.

    297. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers,

      “Just what is your REAL motive behind your claim the SNP is doing nothing? The evidence of your post here on Wings indicates it is to discredit the SNP and Scottish Government and, by implication, every single voter who voted them into power. Are you perhaps Rock, Colin Alexander or one of the others who falsely claim to support independence but do nothing whatsoever that supports that claim.”

      Rev. Stuart Campbell,

      “Folks, I’m getting really sick of this shit.

      If you suspect the motives of another poster, don’t get drawn into arguing with them. That would, after all, be what they want.”

      I trust that Robert Peffers will finally have the sense to listen to the owner of this website.

      Truth Always.

    298. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Copying and pasting is an art that, once mastered, can be a useful computer skill.

      However, if one takes too much pleasure in the mastering of the skill, scatter-gunning pastes willy-nilly, the effect of the pastes is diminished, eventually reaching redundancy.

      The evil that men do lives after them. The good is oft interred in their graves. So let it be with Caesar.

    299. Cadogan Enright says:

      did anyone notice if the BBC ran the story?

    300. yesindyref2 says:

      @Socrates MacSporran says:
      yesindyref2

      FFS man, are you really as stupid as you appear?

      I think you got the wrong person, FFS, can’t you read?

    301. crazycat says:

      @ Robert J Sutherland

      I’m just back in, and have seen your response to me this afternoon.

      I wasn’t at all trying to trap anyone; when the Gagging Law was on its way through Parliament during the Coalition, I did what I could – not much – to campaign against it, but it was duly passed. Implementation in Scotland was slightly delayed, so it did not affect the referendum.

      But when we carried on campaigning after September, I realized that we might fall foul of its provisions – so I made myself familiar with as much of it as I could. As a new piece of legislation, there were no precedents, but I did manage to establish some of the most ludicrous aspects.

      For instance, almost anything can be “election material” – hats, badges, umbrellas, T-shirts, vehicle logos, websites, as well as the obvious publications (including newspapers, I have no doubt).

      None of this matters. until it costs money, whereupon there are limits to be considered, the possiblity of needing to be registered and to submit accounts, and rules about “joint campaigning”, which I see as the worst of all.

      If a non-party group collaborates with another non-party group, it is not just the joint expenditure that is counted towards the limit – all the separate expenditure of each group is also pooled. So if I publish a leaflet with you, and you publish another leaflet with Greenpeace, all their costs are added to yours, and to mine, which might then mean we’d each have breached some limit. That is as daft as it sounds; I drove the poor people at the EC to distraction asking about hypothetical scenarios, so that we wouldn’t risk that consequence, but I don’t think I explored all the ramifications.

      Finally, election material is anything that the public can be exposed to, which could influence someone’s vote, even if it is not intended to. So if it is widely known that Party A supports fracking, and Party B opposes it, a leaflet against fracking, mentioning neither party or their candidates, will be classified as encouraging people to vote for Party B.

      All these failings and more were pointed out during the passage of the bill, with the Labour Party actually trying quite hard to stop it. As a hardened cynic, however, I fully expected them to leave it in place if they had won the 2015 election. They don’t want the plebs to get uppity any more than the Tories do.

    302. yesindyref2 says:

      @Breeks “I don’t see SNP playing a blinder. I truly wish I did, but I don’t.

      It wasn’t me said that either, it was Socrates McSporran, who probably should have replied to you with the contents of his snotrag, rather than me.

      Unlike him I have an ability to follow a thread, and attribute quotes to those that made them.

      Sheesh. Would people be more careful to read who made a fucking posting?

    303. Cactus says:

      Making my own news… ok then

      I choose to be free.

      Granted.

    304. Rock says:

      Rock:

      “Gina Miller a “pleb” fighting for the rights of “plebs”?”

      yesindyref2,

      “Well she certainly ain’t the UK Government or Parliament, and given there’s either Government or plebs, that makes her a pleb, a rich pleb.”

      I guess by your definition, JK Rowling is a “pleb”?

      By my definition, there are the “elite”, those with money and/or influence, and the “plebs”, who have neither.

      By my definition, the likes of Gina Miller and JK Rowling are most definitely not “plebs”.

      But you are perfectly entitled to your views, as I am to mine.

    305. Robert Peffers says:

      Noo Ah’m no the best auld bodach in the hale Warld tae bi murnin aboot the eese o the Inglis leid, bit aiblins thir micht bi sumthin muckle wrang wi yon Inglis gremmar, “Scotland has slid down an international league table …”.

      Owersettin intil the Inglis, (Now I may not be the best old man in the whole World to be complaining about the use of the English language, but, perhaps, there may be something very wrong with that English Grammar “Scotland has slid down an international league table …”)

      You just cannot get good journalists these days in what passes for the Scottish newspapers.



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