stooges of the Kremlin

Wings Over Scotland


Sour grapes and bad wine

Posted on September 11, 2017 by

20 years ago today, Scotland voted to have a Parliament for the first time in almost three centuries, by an overwhelming margin (although with modest enthusiasm – less than 10% more people actually voted for devolution than voted for independence in 2014, at 1.78m and 1.62m respectively).

Just 20 months after the vote the Parliament came into being, and Scotland’s media has been complaining about how useless it is ever since.

Today’s newspapers commemorate the anniversary by unleashing the full pontificating weight of the punditariat – most of whom have been opining wearily on Holyrood’s failings for the entire period – to bleat with their customary single voice about what a disappointment it’s all been.

The weird thing is that after all that time, none of them can actually explain why.

Here, for example, is David Torrance in the Herald:

Can it? What should it have done? What powers did it ever have to significantly impact on inequality or economics? You can plough gamely all the way through to the end of Torrance’s typically pedestrian commentary and not find a single example of something he wishes Holyrood had done but didn’t.

If you want to read basically the same article again, you can venture over to the Times and endure Magnus Linklater making the same vague complaints:

Linklater concludes by bemoaning “today, as one looks back on Scotland’s double decade of devolution, the overwhelming sense that lingers is: what might have been”. But the nature of what it was precisely that he would like it to have been goes unspoken. Which opportunities were lost, exactly? The reader is left to guess.

Over on the Guardian, a piece by Gerry Hassan starts out more positively:

“Twenty years later devolution has been a success. There are no serious calls for the Scottish parliament to be abolished or for a return of direct rule from Westminster.”

Although the timing of the latter assertion is unfortunate in the light of a weekend poll showing that the number of people making just such a call was at a record high of 19%, or over a million Scots.

But Hassan, too, quickly descends into grumbling.

And again, there’s no suggestion of HOW the Parliament could have achieved those things. It was set up as a glorified local council with almost no powers to affect serious economic change which could address inequality, and it remains so now. Wages, most welfare, most taxation, immigration and the vast majority of other economic levers are out of Holyrood’s reach by design.

So saying that it “could have embraced a distinct take on public service reform that widened the life chances of the disadvantaged” is just woolly white noise padding out column inches until the required wordcount is reached and the paycheque earned. What Hassan would have had Holyrood actually specifically do is a mystery.

The piece is, however, a model of clarity compared to Paul Sinclair’s incomprehensible witterings for the Scottish Mail On Sunday.

We’ll gratefully accept answers on a postcard about what on Earth any of that means.

The final word, though, must go to the Scotsman’s eternally grumpy old man, Brian Monteith, one of the leading lights of the No/No movement back in 1997 and whose opinion of devolution hasn’t improved with time.

So convinced is Monteith that there can be no argument over the Parliament’s failure that he doesn’t bother to make one. Instead, bizarrely, he embarks on a long list of things he was completely wrong about.

By almost any measure, the Scottish NHS is indeed in better shape today than its counterparts elsewhere in the UK, and is widely recognised as such by voters. Higher education is free in Scotland. Social housing is being built again. Government is unquestionably closer to the people, and far more of them trust their government in Edinburgh than the one in London.

And Monteith’s claim that the price of such progress is higher taxation is a myth that’s been endlessly debunked. A small minority of Scots do pay slightly more income tax than their rUK counterparts, but everyone pays less council tax and nobody pays the bedroom tax. Overall it’s beyond any reasonable dispute that the tax burden on Scots is LOWER than anywhere else in Britain, and they get more services for their money, including free prescriptions, bridge tolls and personal care.

(There are hundreds more words of whining to get through in the column, but to be honest we can’t face wading through them all paragraph by paragraph. Suffice to say is that everything good in Scotland has apparently happened despite devolution and everything bad has happened because of it.)

The biggest material change in Scottish public life since devolution has arguably been the apocalyptic collapse in the fortunes of the print media. Scotland On Sunday, for example, sold 135,000 copies a week when the Scottish Parliament opened its doors, but has plummeted to just 22,000 today, and the rest have followed similar trajectories.

(The Daily Record was shifting more than 700,000 when Scots voted for devolution, but has now lost almost 80% of that audience and is clinging to barely 140,000.)

With the endless diet of carping, cringe and misery they’ve served up over that time, it’s not much of a struggle to see why. And with the same torn coupons still spouting the same old doom and gloom two decades later (sparingly supplemented by youngish fogeys like Torrance, cut from identical cloth), we wouldn’t bank on anything changing any time soon.

The only real debate about the future, in fact, is whether the Grim Reaper will come for the elderly hacks or the papers they write for first.

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    1. 11 09 17 16:57

      Sour grapes and bad wine | speymouth

    2. 11 09 17 23:09

      Scottish Parliament vs NI Stormont Assembly | the mirror@wordpress.com

    242 to “Sour grapes and bad wine”

    1. Andy-B says:

      I’d say it’s pretty obvious that devolution, and ergo Holyrood has made very good decisions that have contributed to the wellbeing of the residents of Scotland.

      These doom and gloomers, must surely also know that in their hearts and minds for that matter. But what is it they say about old dogs, and new tricks?

    2. Merkin Scot says:

      Excellent!

    3. You know what Scotland does do well?

      It produces an endless list of dreary, unimaginative, miserable folks who can find nothing positive to crow about. And most of them work at The Herald, BBC Shortbread & The Hootsmon.

      Such a sad country they aspire to.

    4. heedtracker says:

      Unionists in Scotland are just ghastly!

    5. Ian Brotherhood says:

      We will never know for sure, but I’d bet that not one of the authors cited above could read this article without blushing.

      A shameful state of affairs and they have the fucking gall to *blame* the SNP for anything and everything?

      🙁

    6. Anne Bruce says:

      I wish they would go and suck on their soor plooms somewhere else.

    7. starlaw says:

      Scotland has done well out of Devolution, compare our education, transport, and NHS with England or Wales. Scotland is well ahead.
      However Scotland is only as good as its allowed to be restrained by the Government of another place.
      A government we would be well rid off.

    8. heedtracker says:

      And the real nightmare unfolding for Scotland is Brexit, another colossal catastrofuck dumped on Scots by whatever it is that passes for democracy on planet toryboy UK.

    9. Giesabrek says:

      It’s not so much what good the Scottish Parliament has done for Scotland, it’s more what terrible afflictions from the UK government has it softened, with one hand and both feet tied.

    10. Arbroath1320 says:

      I’ll just leave these here.

      I think they lay out exactly everything that needs to be known about the BRITISH (London centric) print,and television/radio, media.

      https://plus.google.com/photos/101639850456727702167/album/6464540536413009201/6464540539204088626?authkey=CKLH-8PBrM7cpQE

    11. Macart says:

      My God! What a collection right enough.

      I’ll tell you what a Scottish parliament hasn’t done. It hasn’t taken its population into an illegal war. Neither has it crashed an economy or imposed austerity ideology on its population. (those being reserved matters natch)

      Of those parties who have held office of executive or government in Scotland, the current incumbents can hold their record of achievements in office against any in central government over the same period and feel pretty damn good about it.

      I don’t see the UN accusing them of abuse of human rights. Nor do I recall the current SG knowingly enacting harmful legislation against Scotland’s population. The same cannot be said of Westminster government. They also haven’t unleashed a pretty invested, compromised and hostile media on half their electorate.

      Maybe these journos have short memories? Pretty certain there are plenty of folk who do remember, don’t lack imagination and really can’t be arsed conforming to some other bods expectations or definitions.

      FFS!

    12. Macart says:

      P.S.

      Good to see you here Arb. 🙂

    13. Brian Powell says:

      So they want the devolved assemblies in Wales and NI closed.

    14. Pentland Firth says:

      Devolution was a Unionist project which was supposed to kill nationalism “stone dead”. It has clearly failed in its primary objective. Is that why all the commentators highlighted in this article pronounce it to have been such a disappointment?

    15. Arbroath1320 says:

      Hi Macart, I have returned from my self imposed political exile.

      To celebrate I designed myself a wee T-shirt thingy that arrived today.

      https://plus.google.com/photos/101639850456727702167/album/6464542800942385073/6464542801605094258?authkey=COXprO3dwo3VWQ

    16. Mark Russell says:

      You’d almost think there was a conspiracy going on aided and abetted by the fourth estate. Whatever next? The problem is that many retards actually believe this shite.

      As Lizzie might say when visiting her holiday house “Keep the heid”.

    17. Giving Goose says:

      I remember seeing a quote somewhere about a candle flame burning the brightest just as it reaches the end of the wick and goes out forever.

      Unionism looks like this. It’s burning brightly in a brief moment before it’s candle flame finally flickers and goes out. Spent!

      I just looked at A Better Britain – Unionist Party, of which there was a brief flicker in North Lanarkshire recently.

      I decided to look at their address of 272 Bath St, Glasgow on Google Maps. The first thing that popped out to me from the Google map is that the address is just behind somewhere called Nice N Sleazy…that just about sums it up really.

      It’s also a virtual address at Blue Square Offices.
      You too can have a virtual address for £24.99 a month.
      I might buy myself an office for that and call my new political party something meaningful like “A Belting Britain – Onionist Party”, same address, and see if their supporters can actually read.

    18. orri says:

      I fully expect to see an increasingly hysterical denial that Holyrood is in any way, shape or form a successor to the pre-union scots parliament never mind a reconvening of it.

      The reason for that is that whilst the SNP has already stood on a platform arguing for independence that didn’t rely on that sense of continuity an acceptance of Holyrood as being the de-facto signatory on Scotland’s part of the Treaty, not Act, of Union means that with a sufficient mandate from the electorate of Scotland they can unilaterally withdraw from that treaty.

      Whilst that sounds like UDI by another name it isn’t as there would be no secession from the UK but an ending of it.

      A sufficient mandate would be the result of a referendum in favour. Which is why the unionists are desperate to delay or prevent one taking place.

    19. Proud Cybernat says:

      The Cringe is strong.

      Nuffin’ happening in Scotland. Just nuffin’.

      https://twitter.com/proud_cybernat/status/897061598921195522

    20. Albert Herring says:

      “19%, or over a million Scots”

      Um, the Scottish electorate is only 3.9 million (Westminster)/4.1 million (Holyrood).

    21. Edward says:

      Would I be right in thinking that the UK Government were actually forced by the EU to create devolved parliaments for each nation?

      I see Corbyn is claiming it was entirely Labour’s idea

      But something at the back of my mind says that they were pressured into creating devolved parliaments by the EU

      Maybe someone with a better grasp can advise

      Thanks

    22. Alba 46 says:

      yesindyref2 at 3.38pm (on a previous post)

      Beat me too it. The SNP/Independence supporters/ WoS (Robert Peffers) etc should produce a check list of what EXACTLY the Scottish Government is responsible for. Like most people on this very informative website we know that our Scottish Government is very limited in what they can do as the purse strings and the necessary legislation is held by the English government in Westminster.

      Because of the relentless disinformation campaign run by the newspapers and the English government funded tame broadcaster, the BBC, most people in Scotland probably don’t realise that Hollyrood is very limited in what they can do.

      In anticipation of the next referendum a checklist highlighting in percentage terms what Hollyrood has full control over and what westminster retains. Something along the lines of :-

      …………………. Scottish Government…….Westminster

      Work & Pensions …………..30% ……………….70%

      My figures are notional as I, like most people in Scotland am not sure what the breakdown for W&P actually is. A further column could be added highlighting what EXACTLY is affected ie Disability allowance, Unemployment benefit etc. We must try and counter the misinformation of the MSM by producing fact sheets which clearly show who is responsible for what.

      Being an Independence supporter and member of the SNP I hope that once the details of Brexit are clear (BEFORE THE BREAK ON 19th ??????? 2018) the SNP go to the country on a straight vote of a majority of MSP’s will mean a vote for Independence. We already have a majority of MPs at westminster so a similar vote on the Brexit detail for MSP’s would be sufficient.

      In the event that the Scottish Government do not get a majority for their proposal they should resign from both westminster and Hollyrood and leave the Unionist cabal to sort out the resulting Brexit mess. We will then see what sort of job the Unionist branches of the UK parties make of the forthcoming omnishables. That is assuming that we still have a Hollyrood parliament to run

      We must stop pussyfooting about.We must be bold, decisive and mean what we say otherwise we will steamrollered out of existance.

    23. Macart says:

      @Arbroath 1320

      Awesome. 😀

    24. a supporter says:

      “Sour grapes and bad wine”

      A terrific headline to describe the Scottish Media. The last cries of the doomed. The sooner it goes to the wall the better. the MSM is now the New Scotland’s Curse.

    25. thomaspotter2014 says:

      The desperation is ripping oot the WM Establishment as they well know Scotland’s waking up to their atrocious handling of all things Scottish. and UK for that matter.

      Cue the constant co-ordinated attacks from the UKOK Media toadies on Holyroods Parliament, the SNP, the Yes Movement and anything that shows Scotland in a good light.

      We’re well into the Endgame when this level of lies and disinformation is spewing out daily and it will worsen.

      It’s starting to feel like another VOW is just round the corner and they’ve even got auld Liar Broon spraffing about all the good things Labour done FFS.

      These outpourings are the groundwork for the next attack on Scottish Democracy- the shutdown of the Scottish Parliament.

      That is where we are at the moment.

      Time to man the barricades or Winter will come for House Scotland

    26. wull2 says:

      It is time the EU got the finger out, a EU country (Scotland) already in the EU, wants to stay part of the EU. Or are they just as useless as the ones that just tell us lies.

    27. Camz says:

      Can’t blame circulation figures on the crap they spew out. It’s the Internet that’s done it. However, we CAN blame the lack of circulation levelling out since Internet usage became widespread.

    28. Arbroath1320 says:

      Thanks Macart. 😀

    29. Dr Jim says:

      There are some things we share with the mother of all FU Parliaments in London and they’re not good

      Today in the HOC MPs are standing up telling us they’ll vote FOR a bad bill and then waffling on about it’s what their constituents want, in order to justify their Tribal allegiances to each other, and it gets them votes next time round, they hope

      In Holyrood we have the same Tribal wasters who don’t concern themselves with little things like the good of the country they’re more interested in the good of their careers and their Head office Inglind party

      There will always be Unionists who would rather Scotland sunk into the sea than see Scotland thrive by its own hand
      but there are those who at present don’t care whether they’re informed or not because they just don’t see that there’s anything they can do about anything so they’ve disengaged from the process

      We must change that….

    30. Ian says:

      Of course the UK government’s have been such a shining example for so long. Entrepreneurial society, light touch regulation, make britain great again bla bla bla. Bluster as all around relentlessly declines compared with it’s neighbours.

      If they ever take off their state issued Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive Sunglasses they’ll be in for one hell of a shock.

    31. Andy Anderson says:

      I do not wish to read this British Nationalist rubbish anymore.

      They are doing to us exactly what they have been doing for the last 40 years about the EU. Small minded people. Twats.

      Bigger twats are those who do not think for themselves and question what they read. A pity.

    32. Grouse Beater says:

      None of the lying sods dare list what civil and political rights were denied Scotland before devolution let alone a homogenous voice.

      That would be like admitting a parliament of the people – back then a mere ‘executive’ – signified a giant leap for civil rights.

    33. Ken500 says:

      Devolution vote – No 16 to 17 year olds

      Scottish growth rate high than the rest of the UK – 4% . Higher productivity The rest of the UK no growth – low productivity.

      Higher employment rate (pro rata) in Scotland. First time ever since 1928?

      Scottish Gov building much needed Bridges,roads, railways. Accomplishment higher inward investment. Than the rest of the UK. Unionists/Green councils waste public money on grotesque projects of little value and cut funding on education and essential services.

      Scotland raises more taxes (pro rata) £58Billion a year. Scotland gets £50Billion back. The UK raises (UK Gov accounts) £533Billion a year. Pro rata the rest of the UK Raises £44Billion. £14Billion less. Westminster takes £20Billion from Scotland mismanaging the Scottish economy. £9Billion on ‘non identified expenses’. £4Billion in Oil revenues. High UK Gov oil sector taxes 40% since Jan 2016. £1Billion on Trident. £1Billion -no minimum pricing (since 2012).

      Dread to think the state of Scotland without Devolution – Thatcher secretly and illegally took all the Oil revenues and cut the Scottish Block Grant causing total poverty and high unemployment in Scotland.

      The Westminster are now imposing EVEL. English Law for English folk. Totally ignoring Scotland’s wishes and over riding Democracy. Breaking the terms of the Act of Union that Scotland should be treated equally. Retain it’s own legal system forever. The terms could not be changed without agreement of both countries representative. The Union is now broken. Scotland – the Scottish Gov will not endores these proposals leading to another IndyRef which will be won. MSM total irrelevant nonsense. Along with the rest of the total corruption of the UK Gov. The Union is dead.

    34. ALANM says:

      If these so-called journalists could be bothered to do their job properly they couldn’t fail to acknowledge that the people of Scotland are much better off with their own parliament than they would have been without it.

      Of course this is almost entirely the fault of the SNP government without whom our council tax and water bills would now be much higher and we’d be paying hefty tolls to use the new Forth crossing (assuming it had ever been built).

    35. Marcia says:

      Unionist journalists have a problem for every solution.

    36. frogesque says:

      How much better off would Scotland have been without the disastrous SLab years, the money returned to Westminster because there was nothing worth spending it on, Edinburgh tram fiasco an last bit by no means least, the crippling PFI repayments?

      I hope the dead tree press rot under the stench of cat pee in the litter tray.

    37. Ken500 says:

      Strong inappropriate anti depressant drugs can cause mood swings, changes, dark moods and suicide thoughts. People can commit suicide because the dose and drugs are inappropriate.The physical causes of depression can be helped with anti inflammatory drugs, Not depressants. People should get it checked out. Only reduce dosage under medical advice and help. Or it can result in dangerous mood swings, brought on by inappropriate medication.

    38. Croompenstein says:

      @Edward

      Would I be right in thinking that the UK Government were actually forced by the EU to create devolved parliaments for each nation?

      This was posted by James Wilkie on newsnet in 2012..

      Scottish Devolution and the Labour myth

      https://tinyurl.com/ycum9pdx

    39. David Mills says:

      The amazing thing is that a project meant be a quagmire of political fighting achieving little has achieved so much our nation is now distinctly a better fairer more inclusive place with better health care support for our elders

      Imagine what it would be like if devolution had been inbraced rather that every effort to hole it before it left dry dock

      Now imagine what Scotland could like without the hiderance of reserved powers.

    40. galamcennalath says:

      Yoonery does seems to always fail to see the hypocrisy, and general stupidity, in their stance.

      They say they want to Scottish Parliament to do more, yet fight to ensure enabling powers are denied.

      I’m never quite sure which of the labels idiots-r-us or arseholes-r-us best fits!

    41. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      The MSM say the Scottish Government could do more.

      I think they are actually correct.

      With independence the Scottish Government with full powers and full control over income and policy could and would do much more.

      That’s that sorted then.

    42. Street Andrew says:

      Nice one, Rev.

      Don’t you just love the tone of faux disappointment that these arch conservative observers adopt. They pretend they would love to see some radical change while all the time undermining the possibility of it ever coming to pass.

      These are the zombies of the status quo.

      I’m not a fan of horror genre. Can anybody advise on how to kill the undead. There may be a usable parallel.

    43. Dan Huil says:

      These rabid britnats are so pissed off because devolution was meant to kill Scottish nationalism stone dead. Oh, and they’re also pissed off because the rabid britnat press is losing readers. Britnat media has been found wanting all right.

    44. Street Andrew says:

      Spot-on Jason Smoothpiece.

      (love the moniker)

    45. Ken500 says:

      Many people remember the excitement of the Devolution vote and the hope for the future which it fulfilled. After the disappointment of the previous vote denial. Illegal 40% rule.

      Devolution certainly did not kill Independence. Just made more support for it and further powers. The excitement of Devolution and the excitement of the Indy Campaign. Another IndyRef campaign coming soon. Most folk can’t wait.

      The Aberdeen councillor who ruined the City Centre wasting £Billions and cutting education and essential services. Broke planning laws/rules. Is on the boycott line campaign against the new AFC football stadium. Choking. Labour liar in with the Tories supposed to be expelled is still parading about with the chain around the neck. Total hypocrites. No shame Unionists.

    46. defo says:

      If DT were a wine…
      3 day old Blue Nun

      ML? Crusted Port obvs

      BM ? Regurgitated Buckie 🙂

    47. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Provided free university tuition since 2007.
      Refurbished/re-built over 600 schools.
      Built over 30,000 affordable/social houses with new target for 50,000
      Crime at a 42 year low.
      Free prescriptions.
      Toll free bridges.
      Frozen Council Tax for 9 years, now capped at 3% rise.
      Free bus travel for over 60s.
      Free personal care for the elderly.
      Financed completely and delivered Glasgow Commonwealth Games.
      50/50 gender split cabinet.
      Protecting the Gaelic language and contributing to BBC Caesar!
      Highest employment rates in the UK.
      Police numbers up 1000 plus (while England and Wales they are over 10,000 down).
      Nurse and Midwives numbers up 5%.
      Despite UK austerity funding NHS Scotland outperforming every other NHS in the UK
      Scandinavian style Baby Box initiative.
      Mitigated the Bedroom Tax.
      Carbon Emissions down 40%, ahead of 2020 target.
      More than 50% of electricity generated by renewables, ahead of target.
      A9 Perth-Inverness being dualled.
      New Forth Crossing. (No PFI and under budget)
      Biggest new hospital in Europe (No PFI and under budget)
      Built Borders Rail Link.
      Highest level of inward investment outside of London.
      Onshore GDP growth every year.
      Unemployment now at pre-2008 levels,.
      Highest female employment rates in the EU.
      Highest youth employment rates in the UK.
      Equal marriage passed into law.
      2014 Scottish Independence Referendum.
      World’s first Tidal Energy Scheme.
      Lowest ever class sizes in schools (1 teacher to 14 pupils here – England 1 to 27)
      Highest ever Higher passes from our schools
      Record number of students in full time college courses
      Record number of students at university
      Record number of new apprentices

    48. Graeme McAllan says:

      Despite the begrudged “Scottish parliament”, our beautiful country is still controlled by the United Kingdom of London – how about we stop sending our resources to Westminster and retain them for the benefit of Scotland and her residents 😉

    49. Tinto Chiel says:

      I’m sorry you had to wade through all that faecal matter, Rev. It can’t be good for you in the long term. When these “journalists” aren’t being totally hypocritical, they’re completely incoherent.

      galamC: have you considered the term “idiotic-arseholes-r-us”? After all, in their case the terms are not mutually exclusive.

      Marcia: “Unionist journalists have a problem for every solution”:

      😀

    50. Ken500 says:

      Swimming and steam can relieve asthma, chest problems. People can walk better and take no drug or need an inhaler. Healthy weigh bearing exercise. No showering means there has to be more harmful chlorine in the water,

      Using too much bleach products can cause or aggravate breathlessness, asthma and chest problems.

    51. Albert Herring says:

      “Scottish” media lying for England.

    52. Robert Graham says:

      the idea that most of the general public are even at this stage unaware of what the scottish parliament can and cannot do is in itself a disgrace .

      What is more unpalatable is the steps all unionist parties have taken to obstruct even the limited power that was prised from their scabby boney fingers .

      This deception only enabled with the help of the bbc and a wholly compliant media playing a full role , not content with 99.99% control of the media , now all indy supporting sites are receiving the attention usually reserved for terrorist networks and organisations , the unionists are intent in crushing any and all dissent , this site can be easily silenced , who would report it , answers on the back of a stamp provided you can still afford one .

    53. Tam the Bam. says:

      O/T Misreporting Scotland

      Yoon Central @ Pacific Quay in SNP BAD overdrive tonight!!

    54. Chic McGregor says:

      Great stuff DMH.

    55. Muscleguy says:

      Remember Torrance tried to be an academic here in Dundee with those unauthorised, ‘researched’ biographies of Salmond and Sturgeon. He failed utterly, now he is just a jobbing columnist willing to say almost anything to get a shilling, so long as it is SNP Baaaaaad.

      Being a dispassionate, logical, evidence driven academic was obviously beyond Ooor David’s ken. Just as well he didn’t try science. I’ve never known his like in Science. Not even Jim Watson comes close.

      I recall the Great Man came to give us at talk at NIMR in London (RIP) so we all trooped down to hear what the sage had to say, A4 pads and pens in hand. What a load of embarrassing claptrap it was. Still, not a patch on Torrance.

    56. Valerie says:

      Jesus wept! Cringing, miserable life sucking yoons.

      Let’s not do anything, never aspire, never credit, never lift our eyes, just bend over in perpetuity for our overlords.

      Sick of their miserable, vacuous bullshit. They get away with never having to make a case, use logic or analysis.

      Money for old rope.

    57. HandandShrimp says:

      Monteith was as miserable then as now. I am sure there must be some garret somewhere he can howl at the moon without disturbing anyone else.

      Like Stu, Sinclair’s piece sits staring at me unblinking like some aardvark in a top hat playing cards and looking questioningly for someone to raise the stakes. I think it might be a pretentious cry for a right wing narrative in Scottish history…good luck with that Paul.

    58. Hamish100 says:

      Dave Mc Hill

      Don’t forget cancer patients had been o pay for their parking when visiting their hospital. I believe There are just a few car parks where you must still pay — courtesy of the deals with Labour and the Bank of America

    59. Liz Rannoch says:

      MESSAGE FOR:

      @ Daisy Walker O/T 30 August 12.35

      Message left for you on O/T. Hope I’m no’ hit wi’ hammers 🙂

    60. Tinto Chiel says:

      DMH @6.25: and done deliberately!

      A good crib sheet for the Indyref2 campaign.

    61. galamcennalath says:

      Come IndyRef2 campaigning, I trust the main focus will be on a positive message about a possible better future.

      HOWEVER, next time the YES side, or perhaps an component of it, must go all out to challenge, debunk, refute, and even ridicule the Unionist misinformation. The Unionist narrative about Scotland being shite must not be allowed to stand.

      That’s half of it. The defence. Some of the YES campaign also needs to into full attack mode on the Union, Westminster, the Unionist parties, their dark backers, and their media. They have made an atrocious job of dealing with everything concerning Scotland from broken promises, policies designed to cause damage, and erosion of democracy. They need to be called out and forced onto the defensive because there is no defence for their behaviour.

    62. Weechid says:

      I’m sick, sick, sick of these moanin, greetin faced bastards. If they hate it here so much they should bugger off. If they don’t live here then shut up and butt out. Their moaning Minnie opinion isn’t needed or wanted. They are nothing but propaganda machines for the British establishment. Can’t wait until they are all consigned to their very own room 101. Probably one where they would be forced to write something positive about Scotland.

    63. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      We put the list that I posted at 6.25 round this area because we felt the official SNP leaflets were very poor.

    64. Tam the Bam. says:

      Muscleguy…6-41pm

      I’m not up to speed with Torrance’s failed sojurn into Dundonian Academia Muscleguy but I’m all ears…care to elaborate?

    65. Yerkitbreeks says:

      You don’t mention the National which as expected is pretty complimentary.

      This simply emphasises the MSM polarisation which I’m afraid is a proxy for our population

    66. Petra says:

      STV isn’t much better. A bit of a spiel about devolution including the fact, of course, that Holyrood has more powers, but no mention of what they have control over / percentages. No mention of them having had control over 7% of powers up until 2016 and on average control of 17.5% of powers now, such as economic levers and welfare.

      That was followed by the viewers being informed that tonight would see the first in a series about Scottish students who develop mental health issues. A series? How long is that going to drag on for? Percentages were being thrown around hand over fist then about who got help and who didn’t and how long they had to wait, etc, etc. 10% of students didn’t get any help at all and there’s been a 79% rise in suicides. 10% and 79% of what? Ten, 100, 1000, 10,000 people? Still waiting to find out.

      Someone mentioned getting leaflets out and maybe we should start with the basics, such as front page …. ‘What they are not telling you. 20 years of a Scottish Parliament and Westminster still has control over 82.5% of powers.’ And whatever on the back of the leaflet. Let’s get something like this done ASAP. Start crowdfunding for it.

    67. yesindyref2 says:

      I honestly didn’t know what to say on Torrance’s article. I did point out one error of the several in the article, but then deleted it.

      Thing is that Torrance, though he doesn’t realise it, is making the case for Independence – as are all the other articles. The other side of that 19% poll is that 81% in Scotland DO want to keep the devolved parliament, and what Torrance and the others have indirectly pointed out is that the current state of devolution just – is – not – enough.

      So perhaps these fine article writes might like to tell us which further powers should be devolved, and whether than will be enough or should ALL powers be devolved which leads, let me see now, 100% at Westminster – 100% devolved to Holyrood = 0%.

      Mmm, that’s Independence …

    68. Capella says:

      I’m waiting for Brian Wilson’s verdict before I decide whether it has been a good or bad parish council. Has nobody paid him to write a column?

    69. Sarah says:

      O/T The Brain family justgiving fundraiser has got to nearly £5000 with one day left. The absolute minimum they need to pay all the Home Office fees this week is a bit under £8000 to allow for justgivings fee. Can anyone help?

      I have been told that mydonate don’t take any fees. If so this would help all our indy fundraisers. Has anyone had any experience with using mydonate?

    70. Robert Graham says:

      Dave mcewan hill – christ is that all the lazy feckers have done ? .

      So what did they do on Tuesday ? , now that Monday has been accounted for .

      Thanks for the information Dave , everyone here will be aware nothing will ever be enough, no amount of successful outcomes will ever satisfy the ones whos days are ruined without a good SNP moan .

      As with the bbc (aye BUT ) is always to hand ,that trusted put down , their comfort blanket .

    71. HandandShrimp says:

      Capella

      LOL 🙂

    72. defo says:

      Can I have a wee shottie at your game Stu please ?

      Double barrelled tool of the establishment, of off his own back ‘calls for Forth Bridge to be opened’ to Transport Scotland (an idea so preposterous only a yoon would try it on).

      Shortly afterwards, Auntie gives aforementioned double barrelled tool airtime to broadcast his wisdom, unchallenged, to the great brainwashed.
      Shortly afterwards, EEN banners ‘QC Won’t be re-opening’ with a cute first paragraph.
      ” Continuing rush-hour congestion on the new Queensferry Crossing will subside when the bridge becomes “less of a novelty”, the Infrastructure Secretary has claimed as he rejected calls for the Forth Road Bridge to reopen to traffic.”

      And we pay the double barrelled tool handsomely for this !

    73. msean says:

      Could it also be said that it saved the Tories in Scotland? Just think of all the Tories we wouldn’t have known through the Parliament.

    74. Petra says:

      @ Arbroath1320 at 4:47pm ……. ‘Westminster list.’

      @ Dave McEwan Hill at 6:25pm ….. ‘SNP list.’

      Maybe we should get flyers out with the Westminster (Arbroath 1320) list on one side and the SNP (Dave) on the other?

      Anybody else up for doing this type of thing?

    75. Ghillie says:

      What stuns me in a joyous way is what our devolved Parliament HAS achieved in the first 18 years of its life =)

      And that in the face of a relentless deluge of bitterness, condemnation and undermining.

      I AM GRATEFUL FOR AND SO PROUD OF OUR SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT 🙂

    76. Capella says:

      @ HandandShrimp – would be so far off the vitriol scale you could melt girders. 🙂

    77. Valerie says:

      Debate on EU Withdrawal Bill

      Pete Wishart just tweeted. 6 hours of debate, and one SNP backbencher called on to speak.

    78. Petra says:

      Oops should say Arbroath 1320 list at 4:19pm.

    79. Dr Jim says:

      I give you our opposition leaders folks

      Patrick Harvie: The SNP aren’t bold enough with the powers they have
      Alex Rowley: The SNP don’t use the powers they have so we shouldn’t be talking about more of them
      Willie Rennie: Nicola Sturgeon shouldn’t be fighting with Inglind…”We”… don’t want that
      Ruth Davidson: The First Minister is scaremongering

      And the question they were all asked “Would they stand with the SNP to defend Holyrood”
      Anybody see an answer relating to that question there?

      So no, they couldn’t give a monkeys…..except… if the FM and John Swinney hadn’t argued with Inglind in defence of our parliament the Tories would’ve robbed Scotland of 7 billion quid

      They might hope Scotland is full of goldfish but it’s not

    80. Edward says:

      Thanks Croompenstein @ 5:55 🙂

    81. Truth says:

      What might have been?

      What a prick!

      In twenty years there’s going to be some amount of “what might have beens” when we look back at September 2014. That’s for sure.

    82. Valerie says:

      @Petra

      I would certainly be supportive, contribute what I can, distribute etc.

      Our local Yes group are discussing if we should do some kind of eye-catching initiative.

      I suggested a huge billboard with a Chris Cairns cartoon, if he agreed of course, we know it’s his copyright.

      A few liked that idea.

    83. yesindyref2 says:

      OT
      Murphy’s blog. interesting comment quoting Reform Scotland:

      ———-
      Reform Scotland seems to think “the income local authorities receive from sales, rents, fees and charges as a result of providing a range of services”, which amounts to £2.4 billion, should have an effect in GERS since it represents money spent into the economy. Interesting?

      After quoting both Graeme Roy of the FAI and Professor Richard Murphy, they also say “GERS is a good starting point and does provide a lot of useful information on the Scottish economy. But that doesn?t mean we cannot do better. Scotland still needs more accurate data.”.
      ———-

      Geoff Mawdsley director of Reform Scotland was a Conservative candidate back in 2001, and Alison Payne “Scottish Conservative MSPs’ Research Unit, going on to spend four years as Head of Research. She later went on to become Political Adviser to Annabel Goldie MSP”

      That makes what Reform Scotland say more important when it seems to support Murphy and criticise GERS, or at least agree it needs improvement.

      Truth will set us free.

    84. Street Andrew says:

      Yes Ok Dave McEwan Hill (at 6.25)…

      BUT APART FROM THAT…what did the bloody Romans….

    85. defo says:

      Valerie

      Petra said she was well up for ‘calendar girls’, if you were.
      Rock told me 😉

    86. Rock says:

      “It was set up as a glorified local council with almost no powers to affect serious economic change which could address inequality, and it remains so now.”

      What more can nations with pretendy “sovereignty” expect?

    87. Rock says:

      Dave McEwan Hill,

      “We put the list that I posted at 6.25 round this area because we felt the official SNP leaflets were very poor.”

      You too complaining about the SNP?

      Scotland was on the verge of independence immediately after the Brexit vote.

      But Nicola squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

    88. orri says:

      Think the BBC have inadvertently tipped the hand about how difficult, if not impossible, it will be to simply abolish Holyrood or downgrade it without the consent of the Scottish electorate.

      Might not have been them but certainly one news prog was mentioning that Blair, or at least his government, held the referendum in order to lend legitimacy to devolution. either that was to lend it an air of irrevocability or an acknowledgement that Sovereignty lies with the people of Scotland until such time as the Laws of Scotland are changed and such a change is made to stick.

      Hence expect increasing polls, no matter how dubious, trying to punt the idea of support for the abolition of Holyrood. Also consider that even removing powers from Holyrood is problematic since either directly or by electing an SNP administration on a manifesto to do so those powers are there by the express will of the Scottish Electorate.

      Also worth mentioning the context of the oft quoted Mundell misquote regarding whether Scotland ceased to be on the Union or was absorbed by England. The paper being quoted only brought that possibility up to dismiss it as irrelevant. In the same way whilst it might be argued that Holyrood isn’t a reconvened parliament of Scotland proving that doesn’t actually remove the authority it derives as one of the elected bodies sharing the power derived from the people of Scotland.

      It might be pointed out that “Devolution” is not an entirely accurate term in Scotland’s case given ultimately under the law of Scotland Parliamentary Sovereignty doesn’t exist so any powers Holyrood now has weren’t Westminster’s to begin with. This is also why EU powers currently being exercised via our MEPs can’t simply be assumed by Westminster without it being a power grab. Especially given the people of Scotland did not vote in favour of Brexit.

    89. Petra says:

      @ Edward at 4:53pm …

      That’s what I remember too Edward. That Blair was forced by the EU to create the devolved governments. There was also a mention in fact on STV tonight that a number of Scottish Labour politicians were against it.

      Twenty-one Scottish Labour, Tory and Libdem politicians in Westminster tonight preparing to vote, or not, away our rights. Which way will they go? Their (English) Party or the (Scottish) People?

    90. Dr Jim, @ 7.34 pm. Well said, I watched this lot on BBC Distorting Scotland.
      I have come to the conclusion that they are intellectually challenged, and merely mouth the party ‘line to take’ every time a camera or microphone is pointed in their direction.
      I have come to the conclusion that they are just not very bright.
      How long would it take Ruth Davidson to destroy Scotland’s Civic Society, to privatise the NHS, Prisons, Schools, the Fire Service, and set up toll booths everywhere?
      Their Union is dead, and England will be an isolated backwater by March 2019.
      Scotland will not be dragged down with them.
      The Fourth Estate Fifth Columnist hacks are beyond redemption.
      Tomorrow’s cat litter.

    91. Petra says:

      @ Defo at 7:57pm “Calendar Girls.”

      Ha, ha, ha! Love it Defo. I’m presuming that gossipy wee lassie “flogging a dead horse” Rock, or is it Rockette, will be in the lineup?

    92. dakk says:

      Great work Stuart.

      Highlights the whining, disingenuous nature of these so called journalists perfectly.

      Oh,and what Paul Sinclair’s article means is,he is highly intellectual,or on Ketamine.

    93. galamcennalath says:

      In Spanish we are independenistas.

      In French we are les indépendantistes.

      In both languages the words nacionalistas and nationalistes are reserved for the ‘dark side’.

      Yet, we get labelled ‘nationalists’ and seem content to answer to the name, before entering a long caveat about ‘civic’ being good and wholesome.

      For clarity and simplicity we need an identity based on Indy and start using the label nationalist like most folks in this world do.

      That’s my long held opinion, for what it’s worth.

      When debating with Yoons I regularly say, “No YOU are the nationalist, I am a pro democracy activist.”

    94. Robert Graham says:

      Silly question, If we have the most powerful devolved parliament in the universe why would we need or require more powers ? ,
      Every Unionist party leader pressing for the Scottish government to use all the super duper powers that have recently been graciously granted.

      Anyone know anything about these miraculous new powers ,

      I suppose technically the reference of the most powerful devolved parliament is correct, as there is no other administration on the planet ,presently operating under these conditions and circumstances , for once fluffy appears to be telling the truth, ( a first ) what he can’t guarantee is for how long, As in power retained , power devolved is on loan until it’s removed unfortunately the position we now find ourselves in , at the whim of a hostile Facist Tory government .

    95. Tam the Bam. says:

      The Dishonourable Member for Ochils…..

      Standing up for…….emmmm……

    96. Ken500 says:

      Six hours of debate. The SNP should have spoken for around 20 mins. More unfairness. Non democratic.

    97. Street Andrew says:

      What I vaguely remember of Tony Blair’s connection to devolution was thinking at the time it was a clever ruse to cut NI loose without appearing to single out the province.

      He clearly had a change of heart when after all the progress that Mo Mowlem had made he sent Mandelson in to wreck it. It took about a fortnight if I remember rightly.

      At no time did Blair give a toss what was happening in Scotland. Come to that he didn’t seem to care much about what was happening south of the border either.

    98. TheWasp says:

      Hey that’s my invisible MP you’re talking about…
      He is speaking for me but he never asked me my views.

    99. heedtracker says:

      Its not working either. I was shooting the shit with a Rangers fan and he’s even more YES today than in 2014, sick to fucking death of the fucking tories and Brexit’s only hiked food prices, junked sterling, so far.

      Imagine a BBC tory gimp network that did actually do its job, as public broadcaster and not a tory propaganda attack unit, in Scotland and England.

      They are the enemy of the people.

    100. Street Andrew says:

      Any of you girls asked Paula Rose to get her baps out for the Calendar?

    101. defo says:

      Sorry Petra. He’s fully booked out, doing an ugly sister in panto at the Kings.

    102. Ken500 says:

      The road Forth Bridge will be opened for cars in 4 to 6 weeks. There are alterations (road layout?) going on. According to Keith Brown on TV News. That will ease the congestion. On going Project.

    103. defo says:

      Street Andrew

      And risk a size 12 stiletto in the napper ?

    104. Petra says:

      @ Valerie at 7:21pm ….

      A Chris Cairn billboard would be great such as his last cartoon, Valerie. Good idea. However, I reckon we need flyers too. Get them through the letterboxes all over the country. Could we put the wording / planning / double checking facts together as a team on O/T or would a group like Inform Scotland think of getting involved? If Nana / Cherry is reading maybe she could let us know how that would go down? Or should we contact the SNP and ask them to get something out there, as an example very few people know that Holyrood has control over little at all.

    105. msdidi says:

      petra”
      There is no doubt which way Ross Thompson is voting. He was given leave to speak a wee while ago and used the time on his feet to rubbish Scotland “the nationalists” and Nicola in particular. Even his Tory buddies were cringing at his schoolboy rant. I don’t think he’s quite got the hang of being at Westminster yet and someone should tell him (Ruth) to grow up. He harped on about the million Scots who voted for Brexit and are being ignored by Nicola….many of whom are SNP members …he says. Luke Graham is on his feet now and is also taking “a democratic” stand and is voting for the bill….he says it is what his constituents want! Don’t know how much longer I can watch.

    106. msean says:

      I think there are other more powerful devolved parliaments,maybe Greenland,possibly,for instance.

    107. Street Andrew says:

      Defo

      I wasn’t volunteering!

    108. Daisy Walker says:

      Hello Liz Rannoch. I have replied on o/t. Cheerie.

    109. Dave Mc Ewan Hill
      That is an impressive list of positive achievements by the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish Government communications people need to get that message out there and be more proactive and counter all the dreary and dismal carping against the the Scottish parliament by these unionist hacks.

    110. ScottieDog says:

      I would fire out huge billboards about who owns the media

    111. Dave Mc Ewan Hill
      That is an impressive list of positive achievements by the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish Government communications people need to get that message out there and be more proactive and counter all the dreary and dismal carping against the Scottish parliament by these unionist hacks.

    112. Petra says:

      @ defo at 8:33pm …. “Ugly sister in panto at the Kings.”

      Ugly sister? Are you sure it’s no the rear end of the panto horse?

    113. Phil says:

      Just as it is sensible and is becoming normalised to call British Nationalists for what they are, despite the extra typing it is past time to call out those publicity seekers paid by the MSM owner/management class by reference to them as what they are: typists.

      Each day the owners/managers set their subject and slant. Each day the lies/ambiguities are typed out. Each day their ant-rational view of Scotland fills more of the horizon.

      Lets not demean Journalism, a worthy trade, when all we see are exertions of typists.

    114. yesindyref2 says:

      @Petra
      Rock will be the horse.

    115. heedtracker says:

      Lets not demean Journalism, a worthy trade, when all we see are exertions of typists.

      Is it? If Scottish democracy’s done anything, its exposed how rotten and corrupt journalism is in this country. Its all tory, tory and Britnat.

      Ofcourse its not just Scottish democracy. Look at how UK journalism is boosting up Orange Hitler for example, as usual all led and coordinated by the BBC.

    116. Tam the Bam. says:

      Watching BBC PARLIAMENT

      The Tory Charles Elphicke keeps on saying ..’we’…’Britain’…..the arrogance of these b******s……Go Hywel Williams.

    117. Ken500 says:

      People in Scotland have been campaigning for Independence since 1928 universal Suffrage, and before.

      Scotland had a Devolution vote in which a 40% rule was imposed by Cunningham (Labour) Won but didn’t get a 40% (imposed necessary). Then Thatcher came in, thst was the end of it for over the 18 years and when was in power. A dictator. When she illegally caused the worse suffering in Scotland possible when Scotlabd had not voted for her. Secretly hid the Oil revenues, which was off the balance sheet that was secret. Wasted all the money on banking fraud and London S/E development Canary Wharf, Tilbury Docks the centralised transport system through London. Devastated the Scottish economy.

      She cut the Scottish Grant to a thread. Shut all manufacturing etc. No investment. (pro rata) Appalling. Hardship. Totally illegally and secretly. She swore her ministers Forsyth and Lang to secrecy. One of her Scottish minister refused and resign ed because if it. Her lies, deception and fraud was legendary. Kept hidden under the 30 years rule, under the Official Secrets Act. Expenses scandal. She should have been put in prison. Got rid of by her colleagues. She ended up dying alone at the Ritz. A Tory supporter.

      Labour was as bad, just a bunch of total hypocritical lies. Many were steadfast against any Devolution in case it affected there troughing at Westminster for higher remuneration. Clinging on to their power. The McCrone Report, the illegal wars. The expenses scandal. Cash for honours etc. The unregulated financial fraud in London and the Midlands. The tax evasion. Scotland suffered even more. The Military has higher representation from Scotland. There was always a higher number of personnel from Scotland because of the higher unemployment. Migration to get a job all over the world. Scotland depopulated. The 40Million diasporas.

      At the present time Scotland has higher employment (pro rata) than the rest of the UK. Lowest unemployment since Devolution. It is only since Devolution 2000 (UK?) Scottish Accounts have been available on the internet. Anyone can access. Still relatively dubious. The Westminster Treasury always claimed it was not possible to collect separate figures for Scotland. Impossible. A lie? A click on a mouse. Where there were separate figures (Army resourced etc.) they refused to release the data. Refused to release Welfare data. Refused to release HMRC data etc. What are they hiding?

    118. Tam the Bam. says:

      BBC PARLIAMENT

      NOW!!…I urge you…its Alsn B’Stad!

    119. Petra says:

      @ msdidi at 8:38pm …… ‘Westminster debate.’

      Are you a masochist msdidi, lol?

      I’ll watch it on Parl / live tomorrow when I get more time.

      Ross Thompson? You know I’m sure that some English Tories / Labour politicians must be scunnered by their Scottish Cringe colleagues and know that the SNP contingent are head and shoulders above them. They’ll turn a blind eye of course and continue to use them. If only they could see it.

      It’s a case of smoke and mirrors in that place, people playing a part, hidden and not so hidden agendas. I can’t wait for the day when our MPs walk out of that stinking, rotting hell-hole and leave that crew to fight amongst themselves. Blaming each other for evermore for the mess they are in as England gets flushed down the stank. Too bad about the ordinary English people however it’s high time they got their act together.

    120. Tam the Bam. says:

      I hold my hand up….he doesn’t come close to a B’Stad.
      Well there’s the thing folks….I judged him on his suit/accent and haircut……..and here comes the son of Kinnock…..see ya…zzzzzzzzz

    121. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Comparing the results of the recent opinion poll with the tirade of print nonsense highlighted in the above article, one can’t but notice that the media hardly reflect theviews of the people of Scotland back to them. Only that of the 19%, more like.

      I’m sure that Brian Menteith has consistently held a hardline belief in a unitary UK, but it’s surely impossible that all journos purely coincidentally hold anti-Holyrood views.

      The real problem of the Dead Tree Scrolls is surely media ownership.

    122. Robert Peffers says:

      @Alba 46 says: 11 September, 2017 at 4:55 pm:

      “Beat me too it. The SNP/Independence supporters/ WoS (Robert Peffers) etc should produce a check list of what EXACTLY the Scottish Government is responsible for.”

      WHIT!!!!

      Do you lot imaging Robert Peffers and the other SNP/Independence supporters who comment on Wings have nothing better to do with their time?

      Here’s a wee tip for you all:-

      Go to your chosen search engine and type into the search box,“Scottish government reserved matters” .

      After a brief, hardly noticeable, pause a long list of suggested web addresses will be displayed for you to choose from.

      Among them will be this one:-

      http://www.parliament.scot/visitandlearn/12506.aspx

      If you copy that web address into the address bar of your chosen browser it will take you to the Holyrood Parliament official website and a full account of devolved & reserved matters.

      You have a devolved parliament at Holyrood and it has a rather big website full of what Holyrood is up to and it includes Parliament TV:-
      https://www.scottishparliament.tv/

      – which shows live video of not only the Debating Chamber live as it happens but all the committees in the committee rooms as these meetings happen.

      Not only that but the SNP, as a political party, also has a website packed with information:-

      https://www.snp.org/

      and here’s their new, (improved), website:-

      https://www.snp.org/userchoice

      Honestly, guys & gals the information is there for the asking.

      Go get it.

    123. Tam the Bam. says:

      BBC PARL

      WITNESS THIS WORM!!!

    124. Legerwood says:

      orri
      Re: Abolition of Holyrood.

      This from the UK Supreme Court judgement in the Appeal in the Article 50 case brought by Gina Millar.

      “”[Para] 149. In the Scotland Act 2016, the recognition of the Sewel Convention occurs alongside the provi sion in section 1 of that Act. That section, by inserting section 63A into the Scotland Act 1998, makes the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish government a permanent part of the United Kingdom’s constitutional arrangements, signifies the commitment of the UK Parliament and government to those devolved institutions, and declares that those institutions are not to be abolished except on the basis of a decision of the people of Scotland voting in a referendum. This context supports our view that the purpose of the legislative recognition of the convention was to entrench it as a convention.””

      So Scottish Parliament not to be abolished except by the people of Scotland voting in a referendum on that specific issue.

    125. Petra says:

      Hi folks watching the debate please keep us up to date, if you don’t mind, as I’m having to go out now. In particular speeches to zoom into on Parly live tomorrow.

      @ Indyref2 …”panto horse.”

      Just what I was thinking / posted earlier but its disappeared. Flogging the dead rear end of it, no doubt.

    126. Tam the Bam. says:

      ‘mORE POWERS WILL BE COMING TO hOLYROOD ..OF THAT THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT…..SHUT UP YOU OVER-PROMOTED DICK.

    127. wull2 says:

      Dave Mc Ewan Hill, I would just add visit https://wingsoverscotland.com it is one of the few places that the headlines are true.

    128. Ken500 says:

      Ross Thompson was Party to the fraud in Aberdeen City Council. It left the City in £1.2Billion of debt. Unsecured debt sold off on the Stock Market for illegal loans. All councillors have to swear to maintain it now. Cutting education and essential services. He cleared off to Holyrood unelected off the List. Now at Westminster troughing with his colleagues on Scottish public taxpayers money. and talking Scotland down at every occasion. A total hypocrite.

      They should have been charged with emblezzlenent for the mess they made of Aberdeen’s finances. They should be held personally responsible. There has been frequent enquiries but they just get away with it. Unaccountable. Censored and no held culpable. Not fit for public office. An empty groteque monstrosity ruining the City centre. Empty offices and would be hotel. They could not have made a bigger mess. No one wanted it. There were protests after protests. Just ignored. Local democracy?

      One of their number still on the Council whose vote facilitated the mess for higher remuneration. Deputy of the Council was in the line up protesting about the new AFC stadium. Hypocrisy unlimited. After the mess of Aberdeen City wasting £200Million of taxpayers money. Complaining about a funded much needed new stadium. Nimby.

    129. cearc says:

      Arbroath,

      I saw you had broken purdah this afternoon.

      Good to see you back, even sans title.

    130. Petra says:

      @ Legerwood at 9:29pm … “Referendum to abolish.”

      It would be interesting to know what percentage of the 19% came from south of the border originally.

      @ Robert at 9:23pm …….

      Stop being so grumpy Robert. Alba’s only coming up with a (PRO-independence) suggestion like some others on here.

    131. Ken500 says:

      Slavering Ed Davy is now a Sir? Promoted beyond their capabilities? Spot the zumbies. Nae one there as usual. They bored each other to death. Clear as mud. They will be all in the Bars on public money. So drunk they don’t know for what they are voting. Clear as mud. There should be drink/drug tests in the Commons/Lords. Where they fall asleep most of the time. Ben sit down for petty sake. Fools rush in?

    132. Bill McLean says:

      When asked if I’m a nationalist I reply “No, I’m a pragmatist – I know that Scotland can run itself better than outsiders who can’t run their own country”!

    133. Ken500 says:

      The public school boys/girls with their ill prepared rambling essays. It will be good to finally get away from the phoney unrepresentative set up.

    134. Tam the Bam. says:

      M.S.Didi….8-38pm

      loved that…so loved that…will you come to my September 12th party?…..lol

    135. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Legerwood @ 21:29,

      Diligent readers of WoS will have noted my consistent antipathy to any hint of a multi-option indyref2, but in the light of recent polls, maybe we should indeed add a third option, namely to abolish Holyrood and return to (over-)rule by Westminster. =tongue firmly in cheek=

      And thereby split the opposition! =laugh=

    136. Johnny says:

      O/T (to some degree)

      Seeing lots (latest from Mark Diffley) about how important the finding that 19% would abolish Holyrood if they could is.

      I’d be very curious to find out via a poll how many would choose, were the question turned on its head, an option to ‘abolish Westminster’ (implicitly this would mean establishing four national parliaments, but I mainly just wonder how negatively the institution is viewed by comparison).

    137. CameronB Brodie says:

      “If I can have honesty, it’s easier to overlook mistakes.” – Captain James T. Kirk

    138. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Petra @ 21:40,

      It doesn’t really matter who the 19% are, they have always been there. (See the result of the 1997 referendum.)

      Until recently their numbers have been depressed, I reckon, because they have been demoralised, not having any hope of success. The EURef and Brexit has re-invigorated these people.

      They don’t matter though because they represent the hardline “unconvinceables”, whereas the other 81% are in principle convinceable. They are the ones we really need to attend to.

      (Some of whom may well be English. See “Journey to Yes” video #3, for example:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm1Ycdr4xeM
      )

    139. Tam the Bam. says:

      Scottish Mormons

      well…there you go.

    140. Still Positive says:

      The new Tory MP for Stirling, as well as doing a vitriolic attack on the SNP, has defended the bill now going through parliament as well as the Henry V111 clauses despite the fact that his constituency had one of the 4 highest ‘Remain’ votes in Scotland.

      Clearly he does not speak for his constituents but merely toes the party line. Hell mend them for voting for a Tory.

    141. Robert Graham says:

      My it’s good to see the Tory mp for Stirling Stephen Kerr sticking the boot into the proposed centre of excellence by our great Wimbledon champions mother Judy Murray, he just about managed dispite numerous breaks to consult his notes ,and having to be prompted by SNP MPs to get on with it.

      His whole misuse of the time appointed, as was pointed out his submission strayed so far from the debate it started to form a tedious rant about the SNP ,

      I can’t see the point of the numerous Tory MPs who one after the other , are attempting to assure the parliament of their integrity and whole hearted honesty ,

      I hope everyone can agree this feat is beyond mortal man , a distinctly impossible act , hell will freeze over before a Tory promise is delivered , they never have and they never will deliver, How do I know ,I point to the VOW , delivered ? Only in a Unionist head has it been delivered .

    142. Jock McDonnell says:

      The new bridge opens.
      The FM grabs the initiative with her new program for Holyrood & scraps the 1% pay cap, then May follows on the bandwagon, thus generating Barnett consequentials. Oppose that moothy.
      Then a favourable poll.
      And now wind energy is officially cheaper than nuclear. Eck was on the money all along.
      Not a bad few days.

    143. Fireproofjim says:

      Tommy Sheppherd
      Great speech demanding Scotland’s anti-Brexit vote be honoured.

    144. Robert Graham says:

      Tommy Sheppard – Giving Both barrels right now and not missing the target, The Scottish Tory MPs continue to ask the SNP to name one power that will be removed from Holyrood ,
      If I was present my reply would be, Every power yah lying bunch tractors.
      Trust a Tory aye right.

    145. Legerwood says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      11 September, 2017 at 9:47 pm
      Legerwood @ 21:29,

      “”Diligent readers of WoS will have noted my consistent antipathy to any hint of a multi-option indyref2, but in the light of recent polls, maybe we should indeed add a third option, namely to abolish Holyrood and return to (over-)rule by Westminster. =tongue firmly in cheek=

      And thereby split the opposition! =laugh=””

      ……………..

      Oh heavens, don’t encourage them. The permutations of that scenario are endless.

    146. Robert Graham says:

      Sammy Wilson DUP being prompted to change seats and join the Tory benches, yer sitting on the wrong side yah dope, brass neck doesn’t come close . All this worthy talk will be for nothing if Labour MPs once again join the Tory party when it comes to the vote, Let’s see how Jeremy controls his rejuvenated party, Tonight’s vote will give a good indication of future conduct .

    147. Joemcg says:

      Had a look at the 1979 vote screenshot scores on the board. It’s worth a perusal. The same shitebag areas voted no then as in 2014 apart from Edinburgh and the Lothians. Dumfries and Galloway was massively against. WTF is wrong with these people?

    148. Dr Jim says:

      Scotland tonight with Paul Sinclair Andy McKiver and Leslie Riddoch

      The first two rubbished everything about devolution then Paul Sinclair proceeded to just blatantly lie that in fact SNP achievements and policies weren’t actually really taking place at all and the figures were fake

      Leslie Riddoch defended poorly as expected due to being outnumbered, but she was also unprepared, so she shouldn’t have gone on the programme in the first place

      But all that aside what these two were really doing was insulting Scottish voters intelligence for voting SNP at all, and that’s half the nation

      Now some folk might be offended by these little Unionist scroats, me, I just thought how scared shitless these Unionist wasters are that they once again revert to type and call us voters so stupid we don’t understand facts and figures

      Lastly if “I’M JOHN MCKAY” can’t manage to learn how to conduct an interview why not let Bernard Ponsonby do the job he’s pretty good at because even he wouldn’t have let Sinclair get away with outright lies but they knew John Mc Kay’s a pushover

    149. ben madigan says:

      the list of the Scottish parliament’s achievements (mostly SNP) triggered this compare and contrast exercise with the DUP, the ruling party in the Stormont assembly over more or less the same period of time. Enjoy!

      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2017/09/11/scottish-parliament-vs-ni-stormont-assembly/

    150. ronnie anderson says:

      Im watching the debate online Joanne Cherry is the only speaker who hasn’t had her speech included in the index , is this so that people wont get to hear her speech .

    151. Robert Graham says:

      Ouch – I thought Tommy was good but Joanna Cherry was flying and issued a direct challenge to the new Tory MPs who do you represent your constituents or be lobby fodder for the Tory party, this was assisted by a helpful intervention by a fellow snp mp announcing the news that Ruthie would still fly the flag for staying in Europe , Oops subdued and Gas at a peep .

    152. Smallaxe says:

      Joemcg says:

      ” Dumfries and Galloway was massively against. WTF is wrong with these people?”

      I live here, Joe, and quite a few others do also but some of the people here are Mundle Muppets.

      We’re working on it Joe, fear not!
      🙂

    153. ronnie anderson says:

      Disregard my last post at 11.27 Joanne’s speech now included in the index . ( the typist must hiv went fur ah pee )

    154. Capella says:

      Joana Cherry – brilliant speech in Parliament with a great intervention from Chris Law re Ruth Davidson .
      Scroll to 23:16:16
      http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/178c3896-50df-4652-94bf-0c9ccfed388c

      BTW just watched the excellent first episode of Outlander 3 on Amazon Prime. Great stuff.

    155. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, PILL (Public Information LeafLet) delivery by Royal Mail to 2.5 million households / dwellings in Scotland @ 6p each = £150,000. 2.5 million leaflets cost £20,000 or £30,000 for better quality, both 2-sided. Cost of producing leaflet £20,000, so for £200,000, a leaflet to every household in Scotland by the Scottish Government.

      http://www.royalmail.com/business/services/sending/specialist-services/door-to-door

      The opposition would go beresk, probably apopletic with rage, James Kelly and Murdo Fraser would have a hernia, Willie might lose his, smile.

      “Ho ho ho it’s magic, you know, never believe it’s not so” (The Magic PILL).

      I wonder if anyone will bring this up at the SNP Conference?

    156. Robert Peffers says:

      Arrrrgh! I just composed a long and detailed comment explaining how official European Union elected and Commissioned spokespersons are restrained in what they can, and cannot, say due to the way such international diplomatic language is used.

      It just disappeared into the Twilight Zone SO Here’s a MORE brief note in its place.

      Diplomatic language sounds like English, French, German or whatever native language the speaker, or writer, is using but the diplomatic terms have very specific meanings.

      Sometimes, however, a person who would normally use such diplomatic protocol will preface their pronouncement with something like a wee aside, “Now I’m not talking in my official capacity”. Or simply while making everyone think they are, for example talking about Scotland will innocently say. “I’m not referring to Scotland but … “

      Which was always exactly what the former European Commission President – José Manuel Barroso – did on several occasions and was then widely reported by the United Kingdom MSM and state broadcasters as having said it specifically about Scotland.

      Barroso even went to the lengths of telling the World that Spain would veto Scotland as an EU member state. Even although Barroso was a former Portuguese Prime Minister and nothing whatsoever to do with Spain or Spanish politics.

      On the other hand we have such diplomatic statements made by such as Jean Claud Junker that are quite different in character and, in diplomatic language are tantamount to telling the World that Scotland will be an EU member country and without joining an imaginary long queue of states wishing to join. Scotland is already an EU member country as a fully equal Kingdom in the bipartite UK.

      Jinker has said this:- “Scotland has won the right to be heard in Brussels and I will listen carefully”
      :-
      http://bbc.in/296xJ7c

      And this is reported thus in the Irish Times:-

      “Ahead of his meeting with the first minister, commission president Jean-Claude Juncker said that Scotland had “won the right to be heard in Brussels”, but he also said the EU would not interfere in the British process.

      “I will listen carefully to what the first minister will tell me, but we don’t have the intention – neither Donald [Tusk] nor myself – to interfere in the British process,” he said. “That is not our duty and not our job.””

      What that means in diplomatic international language is, “I’m listening to the Scottish First Minister and Scotland will be in the EU but diplomatic protocol means I cannot openly say so, or interfere in another member states business at this time”.

      Best person to explain this diplomatic protocol would be Craig Murray but Craig is rather tied up ATM.

      So you will just have to take my word for it for the time being but note that the claims of Barroso were splashed all over the UK media in big black headlines and even although Barroso always preceded his stuff by saying he wasn’t specifically talking about Scotland the MSM and broadcasters reported that he was.

      Yet how many of you even saw mention or realised what Junker has said AND DID SO ABOUT Scotland SPECIFICALLY.

    157. Robert Graham says:

      Despite only speaking for about seven minutes Joanna Cherry hit the Scottish Tory MPs right between the eyes , and the excellent probability rehearsed intervention by Chris Law was the icing on the cake they had nowhere to hide.

    158. msdidi says:

      It’s getting interesting ….Joanna Cherry has just gotten torn into the Scottish Tories and explained the bill to them as if she was their nursery teacher! Chris Law made an intervention to tell them Ruth Davidson had been on the BBC saying “she’s not flying the flag for Brexit and would vote remain again” Joanna then challenged the 12…. to make their presence felt….protect the democratic will of their constituents….defend devolved settlement in Scotland…..follow Ruth Davidson! Or will they troop through the lobbies, like lobby fodder to undermine the will of the Scottish people and their own constituents. Powerfully put and worth all the pain endured earlier! (Pete Wishart and Tommy Shepherd did get to speak too….both were excellent)

    159. Phronesis says:

      What do democrats stand for? In the American context it is this- but it could just as easily apply to the sorry state of UKOK- the issues are interchangeable.

      ‘To be successful Democrats must address the forces that created Trump: The toxic combination of widening inequality and racism…The richest one percent now own more than the bottom 90 percent. Corporations and the rich are running our politics…The resulting economic stresses have made many people vulnerable to Trump’s politics of hate and bigotry…If Democrats stand for one thing, it must be overcoming this unprecedented economic imbalance and creating a multi-racial, multi-ethnic coalition of the bottom 90 percent, to take back our economy and politics’

      https://www.socialeurope.eu/what-do-democrats-stand-for

      Scotland’s Government and Scotland’s Parliament(those elected parliamentarians who speak up for and protect Scotland’s interests not the pretendy ones who speak for the benefit of EC1,2,3,&4) is here to stay whilst Scotland prepares for independence. It enacts the words and deeds which would suggest understanding of the term ‘democrat’.

      But let’s listen to the voice of children growing up in Britain. One would think that children living in a wealthy western economy that has centuries of welfare reform in statute and allegedly adheres to the treatise of universal children’s rights would be happy with their lot. Children are very astute and insightful- a good barometer of our social conscience and what is their verdict?

      Parental in work poverty,enduring poverty, rising demand for foodbanks,risky neighbourhoods,inadequate housing conditions, state systems demolished, chronic stress, fearful of their own future, socially patterned physical and mental health issues affecting millions of children. They are tomorrow’s stressed and prematurely aging adults.
      Political choices have been made at WM- the government in Scotland is holding a mirror up to these punitive WM policies that cost society (it does exist) more in the long term.Such is the success of the SG- taking a different pathway, doing it deliberately-that is cause for celebration.

      ‘It cannot be acceptable that so many children and young people in this country are experiencing serious problems that are leaving them unhappy. It is only possible to improve the well-being of children and young people across the country by correctly resourcing and prioritising the services which help children early, before they hit crisis point’

      https://www.childrenssociety.org.uk/the-good-childhood-report-2017

    160. Robert Peffers says:

      @Petra says: 11 September, 2017 at 9:40 pm:

      “Stop being so grumpy Robert. Alba’s only coming up with a (PRO-independence) suggestion like some others on here.”

      Ach! Petra. I know exactly what Alba’s doing. Thinking – I’m too bloody lazy to be bothered – I’ll get that silly bugger Peffers to do the donkey work for me.

      Just so happens I’m right up over me ears with other vital matters ATM – like getting in some food, taking the wee Papillon to the vet. Getting an operation on my neck, while my helper is incapacitated with the after effects of two cataract operations.

      Just getting out of bed, showering, dressing and getting out of the house is a few minutes work for some but a major, long and exhausting task for a disabled person.

    161. Smallaxe says:

      Many people think that this charity organisation only works in the “third-world countries”

      It does more than that!
      http://www.savethechildren.org.uk/about-us/where-we-work/united-kingdom/scotland

    162. Robert Graham says:

      The English chancellor is so embarrassed by what he is saying most of the pish he is talking has so far been delivered to his own side therefore turning his back on the opposition, he has had to be reminded by the speaker, who has had to intervene to invite him to face the audience and not the cheerleaders behind him .
      Now it’s crunch time will Labour do what they are supposed to or will they as in previous outings follow the Tory party, well who knows, That’s all folks .

    163. meg merrilees says:

      Embarrassed to listen to the contribution of Stephen Kerr MP for Stirling, to this evening’s debate. He admits after questioning by Joanna Cherry that he has NOT read the bill. He wants the gov to get on with Brexit since it brings opportunities; brings up Scottish planning decisions and generally trashes the SNP and their antics!

      What a tractor!

      So he’s obviously going to vote for it and doesn’t seem to be (t)Ruthless’s MP after all.

    164. Meg merrilees says:

      The National headline
      https://twitter.com/ScotNational

      Seems that the DUP deal needs to be approved by MP’s – shock admission following a challenge by Gina Miller.

      Get the popcorn in…

    165. manandboy says:

      The escalator to a Tory Dictatorship starts.

      ‘The government’s bid to extract the UK from EU law in time for Brexit has passed its first Parliamentary test.

      The EU Withdrawal Bill was backed by MPs by 326 to 290 in a late-night vote despite critics saying it represented a “power-grab” by the government.

      The bill, which will end the supremacy of EU law in the UK, now moves onto its next Parliamentary stage.

      Ministers sought to reassure MPs by considering calls for safeguards over their use of new powers.’ (bbc online news)

    166. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Main WM vote in. Another lurch towards nemesis.

      Some Labour rebels, quite a few abstainers. So much for The Saviour’s conviction leadership.

      The 13 “Vote for Ruthie No Referendum Party” duffers act like a little herd of sheep. Quelle surprise. Entirely gratis, unlike the DUP handy helpers who get a few billion quid for their Loyalist efforts.

    167. Capella says:

      Well that’s The Enabling Act passed. Next comes the stuffing of the committees with Tories.

    168. manandboy says:

      Democracy in the UK heading for the coffin as the Tories begin to realise their fantasies of absolute power.

      The UK just became a little more dangerous for anyone who is not a British Nationalist.

      How long till we see more emboldened fascist thugs on the streets. The DUP will provide extra training through their in-house paramilitaries section.

      For your own sake, Scotland, wake up.

    169. yesindyref2 says:

      Did all the Scottish Conservative MPs vote against Scotland?

    170. MacMillan, Douglas says:

      Dundee University sadly is run by YOONS (like most Scottish Universities). For their purposes Torrance is an ideal appointment – helping to maintain the Great British narrative that Scotland is shit.

      PS Did anyone else see the BBC coverage of the Highland Military Tattoo and Fort George? Fairly stuck in ma craw that anywhere in the Highlands would be celebrating with the Red Coats of the British Armed forces

    171. defo says:

      yesindyref2

      Will the Sun rise in a few hours ?

    172. Cuilean says:

      That was a hoot, Stu, brilliantly bursting the overinflated balloons wi’ their ‘torn coupons’ forbye!

      Also thanks for thoroughly cheering me up, as we savour the fatal trajectory of the motley’Scottish’ *cough* papers and their ‘panem et circenses’ hacks.

      Caledonia invicta!

    173. Macart says:

      You’re wondering why SNP bad, Scottish parly bad on steroids over the past couple of days?

      THIS: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-theresa-may-eu-withdrawal-bill-jeremy-corbyn-labour-vote-mps-a7941711.html

      It appears ‘Better Together’ really does mean ‘dae as yer telt’. Democracy really is what they say it is and you’ll have had your ‘partnership’ reassessed then.

      That’s pretty much the vote where the idea of the UK died and it wasn’t an indyref or an EU ref. It wasn’t a ballot of or for the people. It was held in a chamber with 616 votes counted. No Tories rebelled (including our own). The Tories who would stand for the union and Scotland’s place in the ‘union’. Scotland’s place being…. inconsequential to Conservative needs and wants.

      Our devolution is twenty years old. Yep. Twenty years. Twenty years of ‘power retained, not ceded’. Twenty years of not having control over our resources and energy policy, our economy, our foreign affairs, our benefits and social security, our pensions, our broadcasting, our immigration policy, our trade and industry, our defence or our constitution. They’re reserved matters for proper parliaments and proper government apparently and absolutely cannot be trusted in the hands of the weans.

      According to those who lack aspiration, imagination, independent thought and some would unkindly say… a spine, Scotland will never be worthy of grown up, full self government. So far as anyone can make out, it’s mainly because we’re Scottish and reasons.

      I think they’re wrong. Most creatures on getting older tend to take on responsibility for themselves. They also have aspirations, dreams they want to achieve and require the freedom to choose their own path. Pretty natural state of affairs so far as I’m aware.

      Personally, I’d say twenty is a good age to really set about building a life of your own.

    174. Meg merrilees says:

      Breaking news:
      A poll was carried out by BBC Woman’s Hour recently.
      Where is the best place to be a woman in the UK? And the winner is…

      East Dunbartonshire first place
      East Renfrewshire second place

      Apparently a Reader’s Digest poll in 2007 also found East Dunbartonshire was the best place in the UK to raise a family.

      How can this be – how can a place in Scotland ( the most beautiful country in the world) win the first place in a UK wide competition. The SNP must have fiddled the results.

    175. Robert Louis says:

      So, apparently, in order to get Scottish Parliament legislative consent for the UK enabling act of 2017, Westminster will ‘promise more powers’.

      Hahahahaha.

      What, do they mean like THE VOW in 2014 that they ignored as soon as they got a NO vote?

      The liars of Westminster never cease to amaze.

      The UK enabling act of 2017, voted through in the English House of Commons last night, is a wholly undemocratic piece of legislation. The UK is no longer a democracy, and can no longer claim to be one.

      Let’s get independence from these miserable racist brexit Tory wretches in England ASAP. Get on with it Nicola. Scotland is waiting. We already know brexit will be terrible, stop wasting time and get on with it.

    176. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh aye, on Clyde 1 an hour or two ago, Irving Shipbuilding advertising for shipbuilders to move to Nova Scotia to work on Canada’s fleet for the next 30 years. Some hotel in Edinburgh I think, so they’re thinking Rosyth workers too I guess. Wouldn’t surprise me if they end up working on the next batch of T26 supposedly coming to the Clyde. And I did see somewhere some weeks ago that BAE hadn’t been taking on apprentices.

      The Clyde’s fucked in the UK, apart from Fergusons. Without a large nucleus of skills, there’s no going back – it took Barrow quite a long time to build up submarine skills for the Astute build as it was years since any subs had been built in the UK.

    177. yesindyref2 says:

      I think, with the Parker shipbuilding strategy having been accepted by the MOD, correctly I guess unfortunately, it makes no difference the result of Indy Ref 2 – or even if there is one. Naval shipbuilding is exiting Scotland after 2024 sees the completion of the 3 Type 25 and the end of the BAE 15 year 2009 TOBA, BAE itself has other irons in the fire outside the UK and in any case has considerable other work in the UK.

      Not sure about Rosyth, but Babcok have plans for a container base and are building engineering offices. Good investment, but doesn’t look like ongoing naval shipbuilding to me after PoW. I could be wrong, Babcock do have the Venator tender for the T31, which might be built there I guess. Some investigation to do I think.

      Sure, Fallon and the rest will threaten to take naval warship build out of Scotland on a YES, but perhaps by 2019 the threat truly will be hollow apart from the other 5 T26, the T31 having gone elsewhere in the UK already. Vague promises of future destroyer build in the 30s I daresay.

      GMB aren’t that thick, but their game is UK shipbuilding, said so last week in fact by talking about British workers.

      Makes me almost wish I wasn’t a blatant Indy supporter, but just a defence buff, and maybe with the ear of onsite shop stewards rather than the GMB top brass who give two hoots about Scotland. Solidarity? Build the fuckers in England or Northern Ireland as long as our total membership is OK.

      The Clyde workers have been fooled, are being fooled, and will be again. Such is this disjointed Union and the broad shoulders of better together as long as you’re not in Scotland. Another clearances off to Canada, after the shipbuild famine this time.

    178. Les Wilson says:

      This is another concentrated attack against Independence, and by definition the SNP are in the normal firing line.
      When such attacks are in unison, there has to be some central force telling them to do so.
      It is incomprehensible that it is coincidence.

      Westminster black arts in full swing, and all the hacks and usual suspects join in when told to do so. Westminster is soo corrupt and devoid of any principle.

      Scottish democracy just cannot be allowed, and must be killed off for a million Unionist reasons.

      Unfortunately the SNP are the most successful and best government we have ever had, and have done more for Scots than any unionist party has done or could ever have the will to attempt.
      This attack is like all the others, anti democratic, and vile.

      It may also be a prelude to the closing of Holyrood, which they obviously hate. The Tories are going to be able to change laws at will utterly shameful, the last to do this was Hitler in 1933.
      Welcome to the pariah that is the UK, it has always been that, but the more desperate they become the worse it will become.

      More Scots need to get off their knees and break this farcical Union. It may be farcical but it is no joke, as ever they want to chain and bind us.
      F..k them, we need to just go for it, get the drums banging and rally the people to the right of Independence, we are a nation and deserve to be free.
      Brexit is our biggest ally we need to use it well.

    179. Brian Powell says:

      yesindyref

      Yes, they did.

    180. ScottieDog says:

      Wonder if we will get an EU perspective on the great repeal bill.

    181. Smallaxe says:

      Good morning, Nana. Quite a nice morning here today, thank you for your links.
      Kettle’s on! 🙂

    182. Hamish100 says:

      Listening to the Tory apologist on BBC radio scotchland. The Scots electorate can get stuffed. Brexit is the way. Unite behind Brexit. His party leader is both right and wrong depending on the question asked. Uncertainty is bad. Who thought this up
      The Tories in order to stop ukip .
      The usual political tactic . Let’s all move on
      Democratic representative of who? Certainly not those folk who voted to remain in the EU.

      Welcome the Brexit land

    183. Nana says:

      Good morning Smallaxe, nice to see you here.

      So that good old socialist Dennis Skinner voted with the cons. Labour party the party of shysters, sure hope Cat Boyd is happy this morning. Vote for Corbyn and Co and get burnt.

      One more link

      http://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/eu-negotiator-michel-barnier-%E2%80%98interested-scotland

    184. Smallaxe says:

      Theresa May says: Now is not the time!

      Scotland says: Our time is NOW to be Forever Free from this farcical/fascist union!

      No Pasaran

    185. Macart says:

      Mornin’ Nana

      Just in time for breakfast. 🙂

      @Smallaxe

      Good to see you back. 🙂

    186. Les Wilson says:

      Nana says:

      Funny Nana but your last link is not available, hmm I wonder why?

    187. Nana says:

      Good morning Macart.

      @Les, you can read the article on the Holyrood website, scroll down to see it. I think there is a problem with the direct link?

    188. Ken500 says:

      Labour mucked it up again.

      The Union is finished.

      EVEL. English votes for English. No equality or fairness because of the Tory/Unionists. The majority People’s views ignored again, especially in Scotland. The Tories digging themselves into a hole they will not scramble back from. Clinging to power. Good bye and good luck. Good rddance. The most corrupt institution in the world.

    189. Ken500 says:

      Thanks Nana. Once again brilliant. Thanks for all you do. Thanks to Rev Stu. Thanks a billion.

    190. Robert Louis says:

      Well, I made the mistake this morning of watching the BBC Propaganda breakfast news programme from England.

      In it, they had a puff piece about the RAF and their ‘frontline’ Typhoon jets. The whole piece mentioned typhoon many, many times, yet not once did they call it by its correct name, ‘Eurofighter Typhoon’. Clearly the BBC is no longer allowed by Theresa the dictator, to say anything ‘Euro’, or let on about the collaborative European nature of the Eurofighter project.

      It is not what the biased propagandists at the BBC tell you, it is what they deliberately omit that matters.

      Meanwhile, BBC shortbread is telling Scots just how awful the NHS is in Scotland. Again.

    191. Nana says:

      @Les, I tried to find a mention of Barnier’s visit to no avail. You would think he was never here, funny that.

      Wonder why the gov won’t publish the brexit impact reports, what exactly are they trying to hide.

      http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/09/11/the-government-wont-release-its-analyses-of-brexits-impact-we-have-a-right-to-see-them/

    192. Ottomanboi says:

      It is not polite and not very PC but Unionism understands only one thing. We instinctively know what that ‘thing’ is but appear so reluctant, too feirt to deploy it. Not so in Catalonia where the dynamic is so much more assertive and uninhibited than here. I sometimes think that we are scared of shadows, the shadows thrown by ourselves as a sovereign and independent people. For God’s sake we and our politicians do need to get a serious grip. Kid gloves off, this is a bare knuckle fight and the opponent is flesh, blood and establishment might, not a shadow.

    193. Breeks says:

      Brexit bill could remove legislative competency from Holyrood…

      Come on SNP! Westminster’s sovereign competency is outside its jurisdiction North of the Border. Scotland is staying in Europe as decreed by the sovereign people in 2016.

      If you (Westminster) proceeds further down this path, then the Union will be deemed revoked by your reckless initiative.

    194. Ken500 says:

      Just vote SNP/SNP Vote for FFA/Independence in the EU. To stand up for Scotland. It will be achieved. Scotland is on the right path. A changing direct. A parting of the ways. Going in the right direction for a brighter future. Have patience and faith. The majority can do this.

      MSM is full defence mode. Do not listen to it. Switch off. To get rid of it. The disruptive background noise. A more responsible service will emerge. Stay strong. Do not waver in any way shape or form. Be even more determined in every way. Do something nice. To raise deflated spirits. Exercise if possible. Scotland will get through this major attack on democracy. The unionist ‘politicans?’ haven’t a clue what they are doing. They will muck up further. Then be gone. That is nothing surer. They always do.

    195. Les Wilson says:

      Nana says:

      Thanks Nana as ever! Will look there.

    196. Nana says:

      You are welcome Ken500.

      Here’s another link although maybe breakfast time may not be the best time for this one.

      http://newsnet.scot/archive/like-chilli-bleach-gravy-chicken/

    197. wull2 says:

      Could we not crowed fund adverts on Argyll Independent Radio (Scotland’s achievements)

    198. Les Wilson says:

      Smallaxe says:

      That worked fine, thanks for that. Enjoy this nice day.

    199. Abulhaq says:

      BBC Today prog mentioned report indicating cradle2grave care provisions in Scotland were the best in UK. You can hear the choking on morning croissants at Unionist Central….and Ruthie swearing like a trooper.

    200. Petra says:

      Thanks for the links, Nana. If all Scots had access to them on a daily basis support for Independence would rise into the 60 percentages within a week.

      I love the latest from Richard Murphy (7:49am). Seems that most others who made submissions to Holyrood agree with him, albeit thinly veiled in their submissions. The GERS figures ARE CRAP, so why has it taken until now for them to admit to this fact? It’s been going on for 40 years now with, for one, Westminster withholding vital data. And they, such as the FoA Institute, have been aware of this!

      And has anyone got any idea as to why Kevin Hague didn’t make a submission? Answers on a postcard. Clue: CRAP. That’s the Kevin Hague that gets his views on GERS promoted on the radio, TV and in newspapers. Maybe someone who uses Twitter could ask him? Better still what about the journalists and presenters making enquiries? The people who have been using this man to con us all.

    201. Ken500 says:

      Catalonia/Spain is an entirely different situation. Too different to be compared without consideration. The Spanish Gov stayed out of the IndyRef internal matters. They were respectful. It might be respectful to stay out of their internal matters. Let them get on with it. Sorting out their own problems and constitution. Scotland might need support from the Spanish Gov in the future. Reap what you sow.

      The Spanish Gov enforces the Law without fear or failing. In Spain people are arrested charged and convicted whoever they are. Bankers, politicans, monarchy. More equal, fair and just. It acts as a deterrent. The antiquated Legal system does need overhauling. Lending from corrupt London. counter dependent.

      In the UK they get rewarded for failure. Getting away with murder. Instead of being out in jail. Outrageous. No deterrent or responsibility.

    202. Ken500 says:

      The US spends half it’s revenues raised on the Military. A total waste. Exploitive, extraordinary amounts. £Trns of debt. There is no money left to look after half the people properly. Mucked up in every way. A tsunami coming down the line. A catastrophe. Trump no better or worse, than the generals controlling the budget. Despite protestation. Totally mucked. A false economy. Something must change. Going over a cliff taking others along with it. Collateral damage of the storms.

      US some brainwashed from the day they were born, through lies and falsehoods and project fear, since the day they were born. See it through relatives the dysfunctional narrative, Extraordinary. Changes are needed. The catastrophe might have a bearing. A different path. Some people never learn. It will keep them busy for now and have time for thought to sink in. The whirling of the cess pit. It might restrict action to take a different course. The devastation.

    203. As others have already pointed out devolution was supposed to kill the SNP and support for independence stone dead.

      Labour attempted to design devolution to ensure that no matter how people in Scotland voted, Labour would remain in perpetual control of Holyrood either with their Libdem friends or the Tories.

      Of course that didn’t work out that way for Labour, and now their Tories friends at Westminster are working out what they can do to take control and limit what Holyrood does.

      As the late Tory MP Enoch Powell stated, power devolved is power retained and I wonder how many people in Scotland are beginning to realise this?

    204. Nana says:

      The difference between Scotland and Catalonia, I think they do have a decent media so the people are aware of their own worth.
      They don’t have tv presenters constantly telling them ‘you and your country are shite’

      https://randompublicjournal.com/2017/09/12/one-million-rally-for-catalunya/

    205. Lenny Hartley says:

      O/T I have been following the progress of an Australian Motorcycle Racer seriously injured in a accident at the Manx Grand Prix a couple of weeks ago. What’s that to do with Wings I hear you cry! Well immediately after the accident he was flown to Liverpool for treatment on several broken bones, as he had friends his parents could stay with on the Isle of Man he wanted back there after his operations. They have moved him back but the Isle of Man NHS have put him in Isolation due to a virus sweeping The “UK” NHS. You heard of this virus folks. nope neither have I read all about it!
      Quote from article “Taken by plane, similar to Australia’s Royal Flying Doctor Service, it was just a short flight to the Isle. Currently, the UK has a virus spreading through hospitals, so Royce has been given his own room just in case – which he’s obviously not complaining about!”

      https://roweracing.org/2017/09/12/road-to-recovery/

    206. Ruth is but a walking shadow, a poor player,
      That struts and frets her hour upon the stage,
      And then is heard no more.

      Her words are a tale
      Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
      Signifying nothing.

      like Kezzy it`s time to go Ruthy.

    207. Nana says:

      @Lenny

      Thinks it might be this

      http://archive.is/RJXnq

    208. heedtracker says:

      US some brainwashed from the day they were born, through lies and falsehoods and project fear, since the day they were born.

      Its worse here though. Tory BBC r4 ended their vote tory show this morn with ultra toryboy David Willets and scientist writer Richard Dawkins chatting.

      Why do beeb r4 gimps match up a toryboy like Willets, with almost no science background, to world famous scientists like Dawkins for debate on science in general and climate change? Willetts had nothing much to say at all, other than the predictable tory layman stuff.

      Willet’s tory freak show has turned English uni education into exact same as the USA, even more expensive, at 6.5% loan return, very tasty, not for debate, with an English scientist.

      Tory creeps like Willetts have shat all over green energy, for decades, everywhere, blocking green energy funding, reneging and lying outright on their vote Green tory fraud, while they pump hundreds of billions into nuke power.

      Yet here they are today, as per usual, the toryboys on their private Beeb gimp network, at the centre of everything, the great dictator toryboys and their BBC gimp network, “normalising” their great shyste on us all.

      At the very least, Orange Hitler is being destroyed by American satire, tv, radio, newspapers. Here the English tory media merely kiss Orange Hitler’s ring. When was the last time UK tory media did that to a Hitler?

    209. Smallaxe says:

      Worth reminding ourselves;

      Here is every key promise the Conservative Party has broken since the last general election [VIDEO];
      https://www.thecanary.co/2017/04/27/every-promise-conservative-party-broken-since-last-general-election-video/

      Cameron’s close Tory ally let off the hook for child images, proving we have a two-tier justice system;
      https://www.thecanary.co/2016/06/03/camerons-close-tory-ally-let-off-the-hook-for-child-images-proving-we-have-a-two-tier-justice-system/

    210. Tinto Chiel says:

      Nana, I believe Catalunya has FIVE TV stations.

      And not a Jackie Bird in sight.

    211. Petra says:

      Great article by Molly Scott (8:47am). Westminster hiding the dire Brexit data? Who would have thought it? They better watch their step. If Brexit is as catastrophic as most experts seem to think it will be, and it comes out at a later date that the Tories were aware of this, the public might decide to do a ‘Mussolini’ on them.

      Meanwhile the individuals who were shouting their heads off about getting their Sovereignty back by leaving the EU have just lost it with the Great UK Enabling (2017) Act being passed. Sad or what? And does Queenie have anything to say about this? More so the fact that the legitimacy of Holyrood is under threat now. Hasn’t she been involved in making a Vow to the Scots?

      The Law Society in Scotland has made public their views on this Act in particular the impact it could have on our judicial system in Scotland. Will they get behind the Independence movement 100% now?

      And a great big thank you to everyone who reported on the debate overnight. I’ve just checked out the Cherry, Sheppard and Wishart speeches and they are brilliant. Standing making vital points (educating) to the totally ignorant Scottish Tory MPs who have just sold Scotland out. Politicians of all hues used the excuse that the majority of their constituents supported Brexit to vote for the ‘Enabling Act’. Taking it that every last one of the Scottish Tory MP’s constituencies voted to Remain (majority) in the EU, what was their excuse for voting as they did? And the Ruth Davidson comments in support of Remain, read out in the Commons, was just a red herring being used to cover HER back, as she knew full well how they would vote. In fact probably demanded that they should support her heroine, Big T.

    212. Smallaxe says:

      “Those who want a kinder politics know we have, in theory at least, the numbers on our side. Most people are socially-minded, empathetic and altruistic. Most people would prefer to live in a world in which everyone is treated with respect and decency, and in which we do not squander either our own lives or the natural gifts on which we and the rest of the living world depend. But a small handful, using lies and distractions and confusion, stifle this latent desire for change.

      We know that, if we can mobilise such silent majorities, there is nothing this small minority can do to stop us. But because we have failed to understand what is possible, and above all failed to replace our tired political stories with a new, compelling narrative of transformation and restoration, we have failed to realise this potential. As we rekindle our imagination, we discover our power to act. And that is the point at which we become unstoppable.”
      George Monbiot

      Full article here “How do we get out of this Mess”
      http://www.monbiot.com/2017/09/11/how-do-we-get-out-of-this-mess/

    213. Fred says:

      O for an Ian Bell! Good stuff Rev! @Arbroath, great T Shirt!

    214. Nana says:

      Tinto Chiel says

      “And not a Jackie Bird in sight””

      For that alone they are truly blessed. Imagine never having to see her beaky sneering face again.

      @Petra
      You are welcome to the links whilst I’m still able to provide them. Notice my apprentice is doing rather well, I’ll soon be redundant!

    215. Ken500 says:

      Catalonia. 7.5Million people. More public holidays than the UK. Different lifestyle. Rallies organised on the many days off – fiesta days – when the population is not working. 8 months of the year. More people can attend. Spain Different climate, lifestyle. Different constitution/union than the UK. than the UK.

      The Spanish economy was adversely affected by the London financial lending markets. Holiday/homes market. Like many countries in the world. Foreigners and fellow EU citizens were fleeced. Lost £Billions. Many UK companies, Regulation was tightened up. In Spain the speculators, crooks, fraudsters and politicans went to jail. Imorisonment. It acts as a deterrent. Spain more equal, free and fair population. A heathy lifestyle and a beautiful country.

    216. Petra says:

      McTernan on Victoria Derbyshire programme running Corbyn down to the ground.

    217. heedtracker says:

      For goodness sake Scots, wake up and smell the tory coffee.

      Its too late. All this Brexit power grabbing by Westminster is being voted through by the likes of Dennis Skinner, to make sure they can block Scots ref2 and eventually rip away any and all devo they want.

      This is what last nights BBC Scotland led tory propaganda attacks on Holyrood’s existence last night was all about, signalling the next phase of the British ground war on Scotland’s right to nation statehood.

      Be afraid.

    218. Legerwood says:

      Petra @ 10.05

      It is not an Act – yet. Quite a few seem to be confused about this.

      It is a Bill which has just passed its first reading.
      There are a few steps to go before it reaches the stage of becoming an Act and being given the Royal Assent. Not that these steps – committee stage, second reading etc.,are likely to lead to many changes the way the Tories are stacking the deck in their favour

    219. Ian McCubbin says:

      Without devolutuon there are over 200 achievments for Scotland that would bot have happened. Now with new programme of bills plis route to a national investment bank we can have the things that start road to achieve those issues bemoaned.
      Lets remember up to 2007 labour were in charge and did nothing.

    220. Capella says:

      Gosh – both Nana and Smallaxe back today. The sun is shining too.
      One link leads to another. On Richard Murphy’s blog there is an interesting article about Scottish Limited Partnerships as instruments of tax avoidance. Contains the phrase ” the Scottish Parliament has no power of Scottish Company Law, which is absurd”. Indeed.
      How is this possible with the Treaty of Union specifically guaranteeing the independence of Scottish Law in perpetuity?

      http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/09/12/the-uk-the-ultimate-no-questions-asked-tax-haven/

    221. Ottomanboi says:

      Under Franco, Galician by birth, the use of the Catalan language was officially ‘discouraged’. Since the restoraration of the Generalitat or government the promotion of the Catalan language through media, education and cultural institutions has been important. The language is the prime and most powerful vehicle of Catalan national identity. Compared to Scotland where the supremacy of a foreign language, English, is without any sense of incongruity, maintained the Catalans have a significant headstart along the road to national renewal.
      The SNP has been rather sniffy about the Catalan independence movement. I have the feeling the Catalans might soon be having the last laugh.

    222. Petra says:

      Nana your links, after Stu’s work, is most definitely the most influential aspect of this site, imo. Invaluable. However the priority has to be taking care of yourself, and that applies to Smallaxe too X, for your own sakes and for your families of course X. Meanwhile I can’t thank you both enough for what you’re doing and others of course such as Robert Peffers who also works his butt off whilst having to deal with ill-health (so apologies Robert for being grumpy with you recently X).

      ………………..

      @ 10:24am. Get on board folks and sign the petition for another Referendum.

      …………………

      @ 10:00am. Another high-ranking paedophile being let off of the hook! Cameron’s political pal Patrick Rock who was employed to deal with Internet child abuse whilst downloading pornographic images of children himself, as an example one of a child under the age of ten. The Policy Unit dealing with such paedophiles led by Jo Johnston, Boris the Clown’s brother. Jobs for the boys, eh? An insidious network of them.

      ………………….

      @ 9:51am. I see that this article, as per usual, uses the ‘umbrella’ term UK whenever it suits them! States that 55 hospitals across the UK have been impacted on by a virus and yet there’s no mention of any hospitals outside of England. The article points out that it’s the ‘FIRST and largest outbreak in Europe” and then goes on to say it’s over. If that’s the case (Lenny at 9:39am) why is Mr Royce being kept in isolation in an Isle of Man hospital following being operated on in Liverpool. England? Roweracing reporting on it. Who’s that? Being kept very hush-hush by the MSM, for example what does the BBC have to say about it? Nought because it doesn’t relate to Scotland? Just wondering now if they had anything to say about Tory paedophile Patrick Rock either?

    223. Petra says:

      @ Legerwood at 11:01am …. “Bill / Act.”

      Thanks for the correction, Legerwood. Jumping the gun a bit, lol.

      ………………

      Loads of great articles in the National yesterday including three pages on devolution / constitution… ‘Parliament in Scotland could be ruled by London for the first time in history.’

      ………………

      ‘@ 9:16am. 38 degree petition re. the Tories plans to ensure their party controls the committees …. Don’t rig Parliamentary Committees.’

      ……………….

      Jo Coburn hosting Daily Politics. Footage of one Tory / Labour politician (8?) after another being shown re. last nights debate. No sign of any SNP politician. We seem to have disappeared off of the map altogether.

    224. Petra says:

      I’ve just come across an interesting article in yesterday’s National. As we find that more and more top cops are English wee Wullie Rennie calls for more due to the vacuum (latest crisis in Police Scotland) caused by CC Gormley standing down whilst an investigation is ongoing.

      ‘The LibDems say that the Scottish Government should look at bringing in resources and additional leadership from elsewhere in the UK, even although Deputy Chief Constable Iain Livingstone has taken over leadership in Gormley’s absence.’ ……..

      ‘A Scottish Government spokesman said, “Deputy Chief Constable Iain Livingstone will lead Police Scotland through this period of absence, and he is well equipped to deliver the leadership required.’

    225. Petra says:

      Where is EVERYONE? No one else posted since 11:40am? I’m now just talking to myself, LOL.

    226. Macart says:

      @Petra

      No. I’m still here in the corner. Mainly banging my head off the wall… quietly.

    227. Nana says:

      Coming up soon: @Feorlean updates the @ScotParl on the #EUwithdrawalbill and the Brexit power grab.

      https://www.scottishparliament.tv/

    228. Petra says:

      Ha, ha, ha! Everyone, other than Macart and I, had moved on to a new thread. Here was me thinking you’d all been picked up by the Secret Police.

    229. twathater says:

      Like you Petra I would like to add my undying unreserved thanks to NANA and SMALLAXE for All their links and hard work, you too Petra but go easy on breeks he like the rest of us is frustrated , BTW smallaxe I am also an ex govanite , Golspie st



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