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Tuesday night and Wednesday morning

Posted on October 22, 2014 by

The Scotsman’s lead story last night on the left, and the same page today:

sturgeondevo

Scottish journalism, there.

They say you should be careful what you wish for. Yesterday we highlighted the fact that the media seems unwilling to address the likely fiscal consequences to Scotland of the three Unionist parties’ devolution plans, all of which will almost certainly lead to a multi-billion pound cut to the Scottish budget. And this morning, curiously, the Scotsman and the Times both did choose to lead with a story about a big Holyrood black hole. Except that strangely, they elected to write about the only one that definitely ISN’T going to happen.

(The Times, extra-bafflingly, chose to talk of an “SNP oil tax”.)

There is, we feel safe in saying, absolutely no chance whatsoever that the Smith Commission will recommend the Scottish Government be given control of North Sea oil revenues. Both of the parties who could possibly form the next Westminster administration are implacably against the idea, and have made that position so unambiguously clear that we’re not even going to waste time with links. It’d be as pointless as saying that Tories favour reducing public spending, or that Labour are committed to the principle of [INSERT LATEST FOCUS GROUP FINDINGS HERE].

What IS inevitably going to happen is that the next UK government will devolve SOME taxation to Holyrood, lowering the block grant in the process, which will mean the Barnett Formula being applied to a smaller proportion of Scottish funding and therefore the overall amount of cash in the kitty being substantially lower.

Inexplicably, “Fiscal Affairs Scotland” – a new thinktank springing from the Centre for Public Policy for Regions, run by the heavily Labour-connected John McLaren – has chosen to devote its charity funding and analytical powers not to examining something that’s actually going to happen, but something that definitely won’t, and in the process has delivered the press a choice SNP-bashing headline.

mclarencppr

It seems not to have occurred to any journalist – whether on the Scotsman or the Times on on BBC Radio Scotland, where Mr McLaren was interviewed about his report this morning – to ask what the Barnett consequences of any of the Unionist parties’ plans were. The fact that the Tories’ proposals would mean the devolution of taxation WITHOUT oil revenues in compensation (presumably causing an even BIGGER black hole) seemingly also isn’t an interesting point in context.

We’ve noted many times before on this site that newspapers have no duty of impartiality. They can distort stories as much as they want to achieve whatever political goals they desire. It’s just that sometimes we’re taken aback, especially in the case of self-styled “quality” broadsheets, at the naked contempt they display in the almost-comical crudity they apparently believe their readers will swallow.

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    1. 22 10 14 11:40

      Tuesday night and Wednesday morning - Speymouth

    2. 22 10 14 13:58

      Tuesday night and Wednesday morning | Politics ...

    215 to “Tuesday night and Wednesday morning”

    1. Thomas William Dunlop says:

      Continuation of the “Keeping the Jocks in the Box, and in the dark” strategy.

    2. Alex Clark says:

      It’s clear to me at least that no matter the devolved powers given to Scotland, there will be a £5 billion black hole.

      Scotland voted for it and will pay for it.

    3. Lynn Cameron says:

      https://twitter.com/TheUnapooper/status/524842705395142656

      A couple of things that haven’t quite got the press coverage they deserve.

      BBC to be investigated after snooping on fee evaders
      The BBC’s use of sweeping surveillance laws to monitor people who may be evading the TV licence fee will be examined by a leading criminal barrister.
      Sajid Javid, the culture secretary, said that the corporation’s use of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (Ripa) will be included in a wider investigation into enforcement of the TV licence fee
      http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/medianews/article4243630.ece

      it’s a bigger story – nothing on the news. Or BBC website. About BBC covert snooping operations.

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2802410/bbc-lose-right-spy-licence-fee-dodgers-says-minister-sajid-javid-orders-inquiry-use-covert-operators-monitor-not-pay.html

      Cheers

      Lynnie

    4. handclapping says:

      @Alex Clark
      No, Scotland voted for a £10 billion black hole by staying with the rUK and running Tridents and bombing Syrians and child poverty and 800 Lords and …
      The £5 billion “black hole” is what we could have had if we had voted Yes but I wouldn’t expect the Hootsmon to point that out. Where do they go after Braehead?

    5. Alex Clark says:

      @handclapping

      My mistake, £10 billion it is.

    6. Doug Daniel says:

      Of course, this was exactly why unionists insisted that the referendum should be purely a question of whether we wanted to stay in the union first, and that they couldn’t put legislation for further devolution in place until we’d decided that. They had to make sure their hands wouldn’t be tied to anything meaningful.

    7. galamcennalath says:

      Perhaps, as has been discussed before on Wings, we are seeing an attempt to discredit the whole idea of devolution and Scotland managing its affairs.

      Devo Next Stage could explicitly be designed to force very difficult decisions on Holyrood – more taxation (in particular income tax) OR massive cuts in services. This would discredit the Scottish Parliament completely in many voters minds and be a win-win-win situation for Westminster.

      More savvy voters would see what was happening. However a large section of the public would only see the negative effects. And, if the whole thing were spun by the MSM as being the fault of Holyrood, this would reinforce the message that Scotland couldn’t run itself.

      If successful, from an Westminster perspective, there could be a widespread reaction against devolution and independence could be even less desirable.

      If unsuccessful, of course, such a blatant attempt to shaft Scotland could backfire on the Unionists.

      We NEED a bus load of SNP MPs in WM after 2015 !

    8. Geoff Huijer says:

      And no doubt what’s left of the diminishing readership of The Scotsman will believe it. It seems that they will believe anything put to paper.

    9. I’m disappointed the Northbriton isn’t dead yet. Surely it’s only a matter of time?

      Well done on visiting this bogroll so the rest of us don’t have to.

    10. What do you do when at every turn lies and fear are spoken against you to suppress you. When you have no chance of your side of the story being told?

      What is there left.

      How long before its the bomb and the bullet?

      That is the abyss we could end up in. God forbid.

    11. msean says:

      Business as usual,debt as spending,Westminsters interests before everyone elses,the markets! Think about the poor markets!

      I always associate the Deputy First Minster Nicola Sturgeon with independence,not devo – whatever – it – is – called – this – week. They just spent the last couple of years telling us that.

    12. william pirrie says:

      Has nobody told the Scotsman that the referendum is finished and they can now employ real journalists now

    13. yerkitbreeks says:

      80% will swallow it – they are the ones who read little beyond the headline.

      Leaving Chomsky’s 1% movers and shakers who actually are the “elite” or “plutocracy” or whatever you like to call them, who actually run the country, I am pleased to say that Wings with others are enlightening us, the remaining 19% and that is a significant and often vocal minority.

      We are just waiting our chance – I suspect this will come along when our political colleagues decide whether they like the recent suggestions from SSP, SNP etc regarding the approach to elections during the next two years.

    14. Macca73 says:

      No extra powers were being offered as “Devo Max” or anythihng else by Westminster and now suddenly it’s the SNP’s fault?

      Everyone on here has thier eyes open to this … it does worry me about the nonsense that people believe outside of those who are outside of the 45%

    15. Training Day says:

      As sure as night follows day, once independence was ‘defeated’, then a concerted campaign would be initiated by the BBC/MSM to trash the notion that Scotland should be afforded more substantive powers. ‘Let’s call it devo max’, eh Jackie?

      By the time the Smith Commission reports at the end of November the BBC/MSM will be begging him not to even devolve even the most trivial ‘powers’.

    16. The Man in the Jar says:

      In the previous article someone commented that Alex Salmond said that a positive campaign will always win over a negative campaign and that in the case of the referendum it clearly did not. A positive campaign will win if there is anything like a level playing field. It was the extremely uneven playing field that lost us the referendum. We very much need to level that playing field as soon as possible but how can we do this? It wasn’t the independence campaign that lost the referendum it was the unionist compliant MSM that won it.

    17. Macart says:

      Hold the front page.

      Scots still can’t be trusted with oil revenues shocker. Full details inside over pages 2,3,4,5,6,7, etc…

      Who knew?

    18. Dan Huil says:

      All of which underlines the importance of electing as many pro-indy MPs as possible in May. If Westminster imposes massive budget cuts on Scotland then these MPs should do their utmost to disrupt and undermine Westminster politics.

    19. Lenny Hartley says:

      More like a 12 Billion black hole for Scotland under the Union going by yesterday’s borrowing figures of 11.7bn for September, which it was reported on Manx Radio as traditionally one of the better months for receipts being the end of a quarter.

      And no there would not have been a 5 billion black hole under Indy, on all the figures used they do not take out what we are spending on Trident and other British projects such as HS2. London Sewers. London Crossrail. etc etc etc. Take these away and we would have been in a healthy surplus.

      I like the way they are trying to portray Devo Max as an SNP plan when in fact its what Gordy et al promised.

      Are we really so stupid as to fall for this propaganda again?

    20. TD says:

      It has always been clear that if we voted No, then we would be punished. The unionists pretty well said so if you read what they put out. What I had not anticipated was that they would punish us in the guise of giving us what they tell us we wanted – i.e. the fabled “more powers”. Now that takes a special kind of evil – “You asked for it -now live with the consequences. HaHaHa!!!!!”

      Let’s just remember how we got here. First they prevented the Scottish Government from putting “More Powers” as an option on the ballot paper. Then, they arbitrarily and in a state of panic decided that a No vote was a vote for more powers. Now they are going to use what they say we voted for as an excuse to reduce the overall level of fuding in Scotland. Oh and incidentally, they are going to reduce the influence of Scottish MPs in the House of Commons.

      I almost have a grudging admiration for their ruthlessness and contempt for the democratic process. Fiendishly clever that they steal our money and manage to make it look like it is what we voted for.

    21. Macart says:

      @TMITJ

      Start with the easiest. Break the dead tree press by not buying titles and not buying the wares of their major advertisers.

      If we can’t reason with them, break them.

    22. Jack Murphy says:

      “We’ve noted many times before on this site that newspapers have no duty of impartiality. They can distort stories as much as they want to achieve whatever political goals they desire.”
      From main article.
      Which begs the question—–why do we buy them in order to read the political views of a small number of rich owners?
      It just doesn’t make sense.

    23. Lesley-Anne says:

      Phew!

      Here was I, much like Stu, wondering when the next Scottish political story was going to emerge. It looks like I needn’t have worried, you can always rely on the Hootsmon, oh and the Times to do all the necessary hard work investigating on our behalf. 😉

      I’m just waiting for that very nice man, Sir Ian Woods to come out from under the stairs and inform us all that the North Sea Oil is
      running out, AGAIN, to which I would like to ask him how his Fracking business is going. 😛

    24. Ken500 says:

      Alongside Headines UK – ‘Devo Met could boost UK productivity’.

      It’s laughable

    25. HandandShrimp says:

      There is an interesting panic in the breastie developing in some Unionists (notably Labour ones) regarding what Smith might recommend. I may be wrong but I think a rear guard action has started to try and prevent EVEL which would naturally fall out of any proposal that leaned towards a genuine Devo Max solution.

      Hence we have the mindless headlines misrepresenting incomplete numbers.

    26. Iain says:

      I listened to that chap on GMS this morning and it was Deja Vu, like a rerun off the independence debate. Same Unionist arguments now being deployed to destroy the idea of Devo Max. Same limp BBC analysis which instead of probing the issue presented a stage for its author to deliver his message unhindered. Business as usual then.

      I now now at the stage where I actually turn GMS / the BBC off. I am really struggling to see anything but bias with them. Yesterday the leader of Western Isles Council (an independent – yeh right) was bumping his gums about the extra charges we pay for energy in the Highlands and Islands (note how Brian Wilson has also been making noises at the same time) and how he wanted the Scottish Government to do something about it. Low and behold this story makes in onto not only GMS but also Reporting Scotland, however it seems to escaped the notice of our Labour friendly council leader and the BBC that Energy policy is NOT devolved.

      By voting NO we gave away any opportunity to change this and as such higher prices are the best of both worlds. Prey tell me why can the impartial BBC not report this point and why did they not bring this new item up during the Referendum campaign? In fact this area has rich pickings for any journo. It is arguable the the UK Government are actively strangling the Renewables industry in Scotland as they are happier to focus on Nuclear and subsidising foreign countries (Norway and RoI) to produce green energy. Best of both worlds, really???

      It would seem that many of those in the NO camp, in particular the Labour side are back in the place they like. Tirelessly complaining about things they have no control over but which they have shown they don’t actually want control off. Hollow and empty, it is sad that so many in Scotland find this their natural state of being, bleating like sheep.

      I prey for the day when we have a real alternative to the current mainstream media.

    27. gillie says:

      Robert Black, chair of Fiscal Studies Scotland, “As a mature, successful democracy Scotland needs a body which will undertake objective analysis of fiscal issues and scrutinise, from an independent, non-political standpoint, the efficiency and effectiveness of the Scottish devolved budget and the performance of key sectors in the Scottish economy. The trustees are certain Fiscal Studies Scotland will offer a key part of that evidence-based scrutiny.”

      Believe that and you will believe any old pish.

    28. Devorgilla says:

      Excellent research Stu, many thanks.

    29. Lesley-Anne says:

      william pirrie says:

      Has nobody told the Scotsman that the referendum is finished and they can now employ real journalists now

      Someone probably did William but they were too busy sticking their fingers in their ears and singing the La La La song. 😛

    30. George Drever says:

      The huge problem here is that the majority of people who read these stories in the press do not and will never see enlightened articles like this from WoS. And so the whole cycle of fear and negativity goes on. It makes me despair…

    31. Penfold says:

      http://joanmcalpine.typepad.com/joan_mcalpine/2011/02/time-for-some-academic-transparency.html

      Bit more info about the academics behind Fiscal Affairs Scotland from Joan McAlpine. Couple years old but interesting reading.

    32. Helena Brown says:

      Wouldn’t it be nice if we had a newspaper who would just print actual news? Wouldn’t it be nice if you could trust one word that they and the BBC said?
      The pity is that some people do believe what they say, I don’t know how, when I was young I though age conferred wisdom, now I am old myself I realise all it confers is that you have lived in some cases, too long.
      TD @ 11.04 I expected that we would be punished and that is something we need to make clear to the gormless who should have not bothered voting but unfortunately did. We all suffer for the stupid.

    33. Murray McCallum says:

      So the indyref message was Scotland would be an economic basket case if it were an independent country like all else on earth.

      Now we seem to be witnessing the setting up of a process of partial devolution that will demonstrate that Scotland loses funds if it tries to do a little bit more “independently”. Where to pin the blame?

      The papers and the State Broadcaster will be relishing this.

    34. muttley79 says:

      @Training Day

      As sure as night follows day, once independence was ‘defeated’, then a concerted campaign would be initiated by the BBC/MSM to trash the notion that Scotland should be afforded more substantive powers. ‘Let’s call it devo max’, eh Jackie?

      By the time the Smith Commission reports at the end of November the BBC/MSM will be begging him not to even devolve even the most trivial ‘powers’.

      It is unfolding before our very eyes. The BBC in Scotland and the rest of the MSM have no shame.

    35. Roland Smith says:

      The UK deficit is increasing this year, estimated roughly at over 100 billion as the most optimistic level.

      Our share of that black hole is 10 billion.

      No voters should find it difficult to look their children and grandchildren in the eye.

      And Scottish pensioner who coted no under the assumption that cuts will never come their way are in for a big shock as pensioner benefits are the one large chunk of the welfare budget to get cut.

    36. Dcanmore says:

      I think Johnston Press maybe heading into more doo doo. After initiating a re-finance of the £300m debt through an extra share option for stakeholders, which did reduce the debt by a third, the company was expecting a share price bounce back by this time (appox three months on). It hasn’t happened and JP share price is still poverty low at 4p. So another round of redundancies has taken place in the South with photographers getting the boot from a number of titles.

    37. Alan McHarg says:

      No taxation without representation… War it is then!

    38. Ken500 says:

      There would be no £5Billion black hole. Scottish Gov would not tax Oil sector up to 80%, increasing revenues. £4Billion. Corp tax would go to Holyrood not through the City of London. £3Billion £1.5Billion+ could be saved scrapping Trident/illegal wars and having a Navy/Army based in Scotland. Scotland would not be repaying £4Billion on money it doesn’t borrow or spend. £1.5Billion could be saved on tax on ‘loss leading’ drink. £14Billion – £5Billion = £8Billion.

    39. Clootie says:

      I don’t think many people believe the “Independent Think Tank” lable anymore.

      Labour Press release – Labour think tank report – BBC report – MSM stories of the horror awaiting us – continue cycle and issue new release.

      George Orwell got it right just perhaps a few years out on the date (not by much when you think of “New Labour” and Blair)

      The parties at Westminster are all blurring/merging into the State Party of the Orwellian nightmare.

    40. Jimbo says:

      It’s all Nicola Sturgeon’s fault.

      I’ve noted lately that Nicola Sturgeon is now coming in for the kind of serious demonisation and vilification that was previously aimed at Alex salmond.

    41. Roland Smith says:

      The UK deficit is increasing this year, estimated roughly at over 100 billion as the most optimistic level.

      Our share of that black hole is 10 billion.

      No voters should find it difficult to look their children and grandchildren in the eye.

      And Scottish pensioner who voted no under the assumption that cuts will never come their way are in for a big shock as pensioner benefits are the one large chunk of the welfare budget left to get cut.

    42. Dcanmore says:

      Yup, Devo Max is now seen as the main threat to Westminster/UK. So it must be treated like an independence vote… ‘Devo-Max is bad for you’. How long before Darling and Murphy are wheeled out with ‘I’m a proud Scot but… ‘ [insert hysterical Devo-Max/SNP references here]

      I’ve just written the script for Margaret Curran’s forthcoming tour, it goes something like this ‘SNP BAD SNP BAD SNP BAD SNP BAD SNP BAD SNP BAD’. Then cue the MSM dressing up Devo-pathetic as the Devolution you’ve always wanted as all the other Devo options suddenly don’t exist anymore because they are Devo-armageddon while Full Fiscal Autonomy is the Devo plan that must never ever be mentioned again because you’ll have to climb Mount Doom to get it.

    43. muttley79 says:

      Why does a wealthy independence supporter not buy the Scotsman or the Herald? BBC Scotland say they get their headlines from the front pages of the newspapers. If the Scotsman was bought, and took on a pro-independence or Devo max view, then we could start to play them at their own game.

    44. @ Lynn Cameron
      Ref the BBC and fee evaders,collection of fees was outsourced to the firm `Capita` who like` Atos`make billions from government contracts.
      In March 2006, `Capita `Executive Chairman Rod Aldridge resigned in the aftermath of claims that contracts awarded to the Group were influenced by his loan of £1 million to the `Labour Party`.

    45. Stoker says:

      Lynn Cameron says:
      22 October, 2014 at 10:31 am
      https://twitter.com/TheUnapooper/status/524842705395142656
      A couple of things that haven’t quite got the press coverage they deserve.
      BBC to be investigated after snooping on fee evaders
      The BBC’s use of sweeping surveillance laws to monitor people who may be evading the TV licence fee will be examined by a leading criminal barrister. Sajid Javid, the culture secretary, said that the corporation’s use of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (Ripa) will be included in a wider investigation into enforcement of the TV licence fee
      it’s a bigger story – nothing on the news. Or BBC website. About BBC covert snooping operations.
      Cheers
      Lynnie
      ____________________________

      First of all, Lynn, thank you very much for that info,
      i was unaware of this.

      Secondly, did you know that by placing links to a unionist
      newspaper, within your post, you are encouraging people to
      visit that unionist site and, therefore, are aiding its survival.
      (note, i’ve removed them from the quote above).

      Every ‘hit’ these sites get counts towards their figures
      which helps with their advertising revenue etc.

      I don’t feel there is any need for people to be helping
      the unionist cause in this manner, our fight is hard enough
      without helping them.

      Maybe you, and others, were not aware of this and hopefully
      will consider this with future posts – we really don’t need
      to be helping to keep the unionist media in a job.

      Every hit they get, i suppose, is the technological
      equivalent to buying their unionist rag.

      I think you put your message across very well, without any
      need for links.

      Thanks once again, Lynn, for the information.
      Very much appreciated.

    46. Stoker says:

      Dcanmore says:
      22 October, 2014 at 11:31 am
      I think Johnston Press maybe heading into more doo doo. After initiating a re-finance of the £300m debt through an extra share option for stakeholders, which did reduce the debt by a third, the company was expecting a share price bounce back by this time (appox three months on). It hasn’t happened and JP share price is still poverty low at 4p. So another round of redundancies has taken place in the South with photographers getting the boot from a number of titles.
      _______________________

      Most excellent news – thank you very much.

      I feel a song coming on,
      ((( DOO, DOO, DOO, ANOTHER ONE BITES THE DUST )))
      🙂

    47. Iain Brown says:

      I’m sure Westminster will attempt to portray Scotland as incapable of self government. It was their main claim in the debate.
      Voters should note, however, that on recent, and mounting, evidence, Westminster is conspicuously incapable of running the UK successfully.
      We have to keep pushing, and convince the gullible to see through the charade.

    48. Iain says:

      In most fields of scholarship, the acquisition of a doctorate is recognised as the usual, necessary step to an academic career: you prove your mettle through the rigorous, exacting, independent research you undertake. It’s not always required in some fields, and I’ve known some first-rate scholars who became pretty eminent despite the lack of a PhD.

      But economics is not one of those fields, and it seems remarkable that McLaren has been able to forge a career in on the basis of a BA in Economics and Social Studies. It may be that he is brilliant, and was immediately ready with his BA to work at a post-doctoral level, but one suspects that membership of the Labour Party and an apparent ability to operate a never-ending production line of studies and reports helpful to that party’s propaganda was no small advantage.

    49. muttley79 says:

      Derek Bateman has a new article on the FAS and the opposition to Devo max. I especially liked this bit:

      If you thought this fight was over, you’re wrong. The Unionists can’t stop themselves from stamping all over Scottish aspirations and killing stone dead anything that smacks of real autonomy. Every single move has a downside that will damage Scotland and they will never tire of telling us. Only craven adherence to London policy – Labour or Tory – will satisfy these Britnats whose contempt for their own country is collective self-loathing on an epic scale.

    50. Luigi says:

      Sigh – more work ahead, folks. The YES campaign, notably Business for Scotland and others did a great job rebutting most of the nonsense economic arguments against Scottish independence. The fact that we came close testifies this.

      We have to now do the same for DevoMax – the BBC MSM now have the bit between their teeth and want to completely discredit it. The good news is that, at 60-70% current popular support for DevoMax, the BBC MSM’s work is much harder than it was during the referendum campaign. They will start to chip away at our advantage, however, so we must continue challenge all nonsense with facts and figures.

    51. dave oh what says:

      It all starts again. We are now in a state of waiting the next round of cross-party mega-disinformation from Wesminster, along with their Media filth, and the only way we can stave this off is for every politician in the Yes alliance to have to hand a respected international & indisputable assessment of the Oil situation to refer to at each and every debate. Devo anything in the absence of the Oil factor means nothing.

    52. Lenny Hartley says:

      Maybe these Independent think tanks would be better employed investigating how the UK is going to pay off its debts, with the deficit still above 100 billion pounds per year and getting worse, whilst Government debt at astronomical levels and with debt repayments of over 50 billion per annum. Its only a matter of time before the whole Ponsi scheme comes tumbling down, poor wee basket case Ireland is paying less interest on its gilts than the UK.
      I was down in England last week at a Motorcycle show, and the traders were reporting that takings were down on previous years, its not maybe an exact science but generally if people feel that the economy is getting stronger they are more likely to spend money. I suspect that people are getting ready for a continuation of the Depression.

    53. gordoz says:

      Totally get this every time Rev but ..

      It is clear that the entrenchment or chasm, that has been opening up for years between the people and the Unionist parties (mainly Labour), glaring control of the so called media & journalism (TV based or otherwise); is becoming even more pronounced.

      And dont get me started on “Fiscal Studies Scotland”; sounds like an optional module on a generic degree course at college or Uni. (Impartial .. ?)

      People its clearer by the day – MSM is the real ‘Enemy of the State’ for Scotland. Its nature was to appear passive and yet be cleverly insidious, pervasive, unscrupulous and now this has moved onto blatant and coercive dictats. The Vow of the D Record and ‘Devo max’ from the smarmy Ms Bird at the BBC are particularly clever cases in point.

      Make no mistake though the Scottish ‘No vote / Silent Majority’ are as gullable as they need be and shovel this stuff into their gobs like a ‘Freebie at McDonalds’

      So its clear the control of the MSM system has to be eliminated / smashed; but that can’t happen without all YES readers at least stopping buying papers and cancelling TV licences. Convincing relatives to do the same.

      We need to starve the system of oxygen. All good ideas but
      news has to get out there and by traditional means.
      Where are the new outlets.

      When can we expect the new TV stations and tabloids to counter the current ‘NO drugs’ on offer ?

      Without them we are really wasting our time ’cause it comes back to the same thing; lies and inuendo we cant counter through proper every day accessible jounalism like the Rev’s unless its online in specific sites like WoS and Joe soap will miss it every time.

    54. Edulis says:

      Here is an insight into BBC Unionist thinking.

      On GMS, one of the presenters made mention of the charge of Culpable Homicide given to Oscar Pistorious in South Africa. A Scottish (check Scottish) BBC presenter then offered the information that this verdict was the same as manslaughter. Since when did manslaughter feature as a term in Scottish law.

      I thought BBC Scotland had a duty to foster Scottish culture, not dilute it with English law terminology.

    55. Oneironaut says:

      So first they scared people into being afraid of independence…

      Now they’re scaring people into being afraid of the “devo-max”, which they originally just made up as a fake alternative to independence…

      THEY’RE DOING IT TO US AGAIN!!!

    56. Ali says:

      This is why campaigning has to continue, why ‘yes’ banners and badges shouldn’t be consigned to cupboards and lofts

      This is not the end,or even the the beginning of the end, but it may be the end of the beginning

      or something like that

    57. dramfineday says:

      Any timescales on when this “new” thinktank will be referred to as “Respected”?

    58. @ Dcanmore
      As far as I know the `Scotsman` like most of Johnston Press rags do not actually employ any journalists (I Know) or photographers everything is outsourced ,they buy news by the column inch from News agencies .
      They just supply a topic and length to the agency and their stable of writers will whip something up , same goes for photography.
      Academic/Industrial experts on TV come from an agency ,same thing supply a topic and political leaning to agent and agent looks up his/her stable of academic prostitutes which are legion especially in Scotland give them a heads up of questions and `answers`and you have what looks to joe and josephine public like unbiased rhetoric from a trusted Academic.

    59. Derek Cunniffe says:

      Every “expert” no matter what they tell you does not give an independent view. They all plan to vote for someone andcwill give an opinion based on their political views.

    60. Training Day says:

      In addition to McLaren being afforded free rein by a chronically biased Gary Robertson on GMS this morning, another interesting titbit was given an odd, and repeated, prominence.

      It was the notion that ‘more power’ should be devolved to English cities, ‘linked to more powers for Scotland’. On the face of it, meh. But then when one recalls Labour’s intention to bypass Holyrood and bestow what little power remains in Scotland upon corrupt Labour local fiefdoms the floating of the idea on GMS seems a tad more sinister..

      We not only have to get rid of Labour MPs next May. We need to cleanse out the Tammany Hall clowns in places like Glasgow and North Lanarkshire. Now, given the way those areas voted in the indyref..

    61. Stoker says:

      muttley79 says:
      22 October, 2014 at 12:03 pm
      Derek Bateman has a new article on the FAS and the opposition to Devo max. I especially liked this bit:

      If you thought this fight was over, you’re wrong. The Unionists can’t stop themselves from stamping all over Scottish aspirations and killing stone dead anything that smacks of real autonomy. Every single move has a downside that will damage Scotland and they will never tire of telling us. Only craven adherence to London policy – Labour or Tory – will satisfy these Britnats whose contempt for their own country is collective self-loathing on an epic scale.
      ________________________

      Thanks, muttley, and here it is:
      http://derekbateman.co.uk/

    62. Dorothy Devine says:

      Just caught a smidgeon of PMQs – D Cameron saying he would keep the promise he made to Scotland if the SNP would keep their promise that the referendum was once in a generation.

      Seems that he hasn’t noticed the 1.6 million of all political colours – just the SNP.

    63. piggy says:

      @James Caithness.
      I agree that WESTMINSTER, The BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION and the NEWSPAPERS, have created a recipe which is likely to become VOLATILE in the near future if they continue.
      INGREDIENTS;
      DECEIT
      LIES
      HIDE THE TRUTH
      DENY MEDIA ACCESS

      METHOD;
      REPEAT OVER AND OVER AGAIN

      RESULT;
      SWIFT AND DIRECT PUBLIC ACTION TO STOP LIES AND DECEIT.
      ESTABLISHMENT PANIC AND OUTCRY.

    64. Valerie says:

      Off topic, but just spotted Darling sitting at PMQs, not doing anything mind, so it may have been a cardboard cut-out

    65. chalks says:

      I did read something regarding them thinking about devolving oil revenues…perhaps it was misunderstood and the author didn’t read the memo properly…

    66. Macart says:

      @Dorothy

      Oh really? Daves got that a bit backwards surely?

      I’m pretty sure its for Westminster to keep their promises, prove their campaign statements and deliver on schedule, just as it would have been for the SG in the event of a YES win. If he doesn’t deliver all of the above and on the schedule THEY promised, then he can stick his fraudulent result where the squirrel hides his nuts and its back to the ballot we go. 😉

    67. muttley79 says:

      Derek Bateman on the neutral John McLaren…:

      John McLaren was a civil servant at both H.M. Treasury (1985-1988) and at the Scottish Office (1989-1998). During this period he had no political affiliations.

      John worked as a researcher for the Labour Party for a year leading up to the first election (1999) of the new Scottish Parliament, being subsequently appointed as a Special Adviser by Donald Dewar, and then by Henry McLeish, for the period up to 2001. John was a member of the Labour Party from 2000 to 2005. In 2006 John was hired by the Labour Party on a consultancy basis to undertake work leading up to the 2007 election. Since 2002 John has worked as an independent economic consultant and member of CPPR. Since 2005 he has had no political affiliations.

    68. Stoker says:

      Dorothy Devine says:
      22 October, 2014 at 12:38 pm
      Just caught a smidgeon of PMQs – D Cameron saying he would keep the promise he made to Scotland if the SNP would keep their promise that the referendum was once in a generation.

      Seems that he hasn’t noticed the 1.6 million of all political colours – just the SNP.
      _______________________

      WHIT?
      I don’t recall Wee Eck making any such promise.
      I do, however, remember him making a off-the-cuff remark
      about “once in a generation”. And furthermore, all the
      evidence is still out there to back this up.

      Whatever happened to that wee greetin faced Davina Moron
      who appeared on our screens, pre ref, with his “good kicking”
      speach, eh? Now she’s back in the relatively safe surrounds
      of Warminster she reverts to type – a parasitical liar.

      Watch this space, Davina, you and your Red Tory rent boys are
      about to receive the mother of all kickings, you obnoxious runt.

    69. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      I have just voted in the SNP Deputy Leader vote, by the t’internet.

      No sayin’.

    70. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Is Marcia out there?

      Does she want to chat with me?

      Say so and I’ll fix something, somehow.

    71. liz says:

      For the folk posting live links to the MSM, I don’t click on them as I will not give them any traffic.

      Re on the other thread about playing dirty, it wouldn’t matter if we did cos the problem – as we all know – is the BBC/MSM,
      And they would criticise us for being negative as happened when the Yes group tried to raise TTIP as being a threat to the NHS.

      We were up visiting my hubbys aunt & uncle who are in their late 80s who said – we voted no – I said to myself – no shit Sherlock.

      They are not in the best of health so I had decided to say nothing, his aunt started saying, ‘we all need to get on now & wasn’t that terrible about the Yes and No groups fighting in GSq post indy’, at that point I said that was rubbish, it was the OO etc and I could see her eyes glaze over.

      They obviously get their info from the BBC.

      I really wish we could find out if they can be sued for telling lies.
      Like E. Bradford and the ‘error’ about NHS funding, it is really frustrating, I am getting to hate folk on the media now.

    72. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      If any of you are still hankering after buying up a big title and running a inky fingers press, have a read at the following analysis for the US Brooking’s Institute about the state of the US newsprint press and where US citizens get their news and perforce political information (aka propaganda).

      Understand this and you understand the propaganda war waged by NO.

      Yes we all ne about it, instinctively, but here is the template.

      http://www.brookings.edu/research/essays/2014/bad-news?utm_source=FB&utm_medium=BPIAds&utm_campaign=BNAN&utm_term=US-18

      BtP

    73. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Is there a Charlie Gallagher posting on this site?

      Can he re email me about his recent travel movements and anything else from that.

      Sorry to be so obtuse but maybe …..

      BtP

    74. Andrew Haddow says:

      “what they say we voted for as an excuse to reduce the overall level of fuding in Scotland”

      If only.

    75. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Muttley 79

      An in-law of my family was also in the Treasury at that “roughish” period.

      Need to meet up with him again and see if there is any stuff.

    76. Scott says:

      Have a look at Landward on Iplayer and see how the oil industry is doing,it really puts Ian Woods take on oil to shame,Shetland has done very well from oil and according to the programe will do more in the future,they have a very nice oil fund going for them as well unlike Scotland or the UK.

    77. Grouse Beater says:

      And we are expected to show restraint and offer civility to these double-dealing,lying bastards in the cause of reconcilisation?

      They must presume we’re not stupid, but brain dead.

    78. Scotspine says:

      Re the BBC, GMS and call Kaye, can we not flood the 80295 text number with objections and counter arguments? If we flood their system, it will disrupt their biased show surely?

    79. Oneironaut says:

      @Scotspine
      Likely they’d just shut down the line and run a story about “Evil Cybernat” attacks on their “democratic” show.

      It’s all about the perceptions of the brainwashed…

    80. Grouse Beater says:

      D Cameron saying he would keep the promise he made to Scotland if the SNP would keep their promise that the referendum was once in a generation.

      The SNP made no such promise. Nor did Salmond.

      I recall the moment the TV interviewer tried to trap him, but Salmond was alert enough to add, ‘That is my personal opinion, not policy of the SNP, or my successor.’

      In a later interview he added, ‘I can’t commit the party to that policy.’

      If you want the dead-heads in Scotland to understand it is crucial they vote vote this time around you don’t say, ‘Oh by the way. We can have another referendum next month if we lose this one.’

    81. velofello says:

      A number of responders here do seem low in spirits, using terms like “they will punish us”, despair over newspaper articles, and BBC bias.

      Yes achieved 45% against an opponent, the UK state, that had all the resources of the state, the media, and the BBC. And such was the UK state’s concern from their private polling that they requested the help of other countries to bolster their case, then they broke the purdah ruling, then sanctioned the Vow. Gordon Brown was a last minute recruit, now dumped, and rumour has it he was the proof reader of Cameron’s speeches.

      Hugely encouraging 45% vote for independence secured. Experience gained for the Yes campaign and the UK state is in a bit of a fix due to the desperate actions they collectively employed – the Vow, the Smith Commission, EVEL.
      The UK finances aren’t improving, nor are they likely to.so in the next phase of the campaign for independence just what is the UK able to say or do with credibility?

      Labour in Scotland are now realising the price of morphing into Red Tories. And I doubt if all the No voters are feeling content and reassured as events unfold.

      I’m really surprised that Blair Jenkins seems to have departed the scene. was he simply on a contract for the duration? And so committed to the terms of his contract rather than to the independence campaign?

      An early morning quick scan at my local newsagent, west coast, indicates little more than a dozen of the Scotsman for sale. Any feedback from the east?

    82. Author_Al says:

      Scotspine makes a very good point. I am tired of listening to the slew of pro-unionist drivel on the show that is pitched as thought-provoking even handed debate. There is never any time for arguments and objections to be debated.

      Meanwhile, at PMQs Cameron has just said that there should be no Indy Ref for a generation – why? 1.6 million of us are still here and should be allowed to have a voice. Pity the voice is barely heard on radio/tv these days.

      Have just written to BBC Scotland to complain about their lack of rigour when promoting the views of so-called unbiased Think Tanks. Grr – getting rather grumpy these days about the fact here is no level playing field for debate.

    83. jackie g says:

      i had to laugh at this, a friend sent it(no links to bbc honest)apparently it is a headline from their Scotland live debates.

      What’s next for Scotland?

      Is there a referendum-shaped hole in your life?

      Never fear, you can keep up to date with what’s next for Scotland on our new webpage.

      We will have all the latest articles, blogs, analysis and features as the story progresses..

    84. Capella says:

      @ Bugger (the Panda) 1:04 pm
      Brilliant article you linked to there.Thanks. Loved the quote
      “The only security of all is in a free press. The force of public opinion cannot be resisted when permitted freely to be expressed.”
      Thomas Jefferson. Pity that ethos hasn’t survived.

    85. Ken500 says:

      80295 text will give them revenues. Don’t

      Total tax raised in Scotland 2011/12 (13/14 will come out Oct?) including geographical oil share
      – £59Billion+

      Total taxes raised in UK (13/14) £490Billion. (Plus £110? Borrowed) = £600Billion

      Scotland is not subsidised. Scotland would be better off Independent. Borrowing and spending £10Billion (pro rata) Scotland would have £69Billion.

    86. boris says:

      A Comprehensive Report on the Controversial Tom Harris MP for Glasgow South

      Such behavior used to be inexcusable, but that was in the days of “Old Labour”. The arrival of Tony Blair coincided with the arrival of spin and smear. A new type of nasty politics emerged. This rather embarrassing but obvious fact that cannot be missed. Over the past decade, quite a few “nasties” have been appointed to senior positions in New Labour governments. New Labour heralded not only a change in policies and a change in personnel, but also a change in ethics and morality within the party. Once the cat has been let out of the bag it becomes difficult to reign it in. A good period in opposition is what the Labour Party needs to purge itself of the type of person who now predominates at the higher levels in the party. New Labour is a rather distasteful party, deeply divided, with little or no idealism and little or no vision. It has been too long in power and now the pursuit of power is its only objective.

      http://caltonjock.com/2014/10/22/774/

    87. Grouse Beater says:

      Velofello: Yes achieved 45% against an opponent, the UK state, that had all the resources of the state, the media, and the BBC.

      And by all accounts, regular analysis demonstates about half of the 55% voting NO want and expected far greater powers for their loyalty to the Union.

      Thinking them stupid or grossly naive in assuming they’d get all the wished for doesn’t mean they won’t be livid if cheated, and vote Yes next time.

    88. Scotspine says:

      Does it really matter about the perceptions of the brainwashed? They won’t change their minds whatever.

      Im not talking about abuse, Im talking about a flood of reasoned counter argument and underlining their bias. They might start to get the message when 90% of folk texting in disagree with their stance. If not, at least it will hamper their efforts.

      We have to stop assuming the position and accepting the regular shaftings, otherwise we might as well pack up now.

      I can see a re run of the referendum coming. All on here hoping and believing that Labour, Tories and Lib Dems will be cleared out at the GE. Well, the MSM and those parties retain their advantagee and as Stu has pointed out above, the twisting and spin continues.

      It’s like being bound and gagged and locked in a room, only being able to look out a window helplessly as everything you hold dear is trashed along with your good name (As they did to Alex Salmond and SNP and now Nicola Sturgeon and SNP)

    89. Stoker says:

      Scotspine says:
      22 October, 2014 at 1:14 pm
      Re the BBC, GMS and call Kaye, can we not flood the @%#+* text number with objections and counter arguments? If we flood their system, it will disrupt their biased show surely?
      _________________________

      NAW, UR YE AFF YER HEED MAN.

      Are you an undercover fund raiser for the Beeb?
      🙂

      The BBC gets a certain percentage of every text message it
      manages to generate – probably the largest percentage – with
      the rest going to the phone companies.
      I don’t know the exact figures but text messaging is just
      another way of raising revenue. You will not disrupt their
      system either, they are very experienced at this and they’ve
      been doing it for years on ALL their shows – from political
      to football programmes. In any one given show they will receive
      thousands of text messages, but will usually only read out a
      handful or so. Think of the money they generate every single
      day with Text charges starting from around 15p per text and
      upwards, its not uncommon to hear them say
      “each text message will be charged at £3 (or whatever)
      plus your providers standard network charge” etc.

      Jeeezo, you nearly had me having kittens when i read your post.
      Don’t do that again, the stress will kill me.
      🙂

    90. Nigel says:

      Im surprised you are still being “taken aback”

      And heres me thinking you were a clued up rev.

      When will the penny finally drop with Scots thhe smith comm is only there to muddy the waters, delay and ultimately deliver sfa to the Scottish peoples.

      The Scottish media will never change their spots.

      Get it now?

    91. Scotspine says:

      Stoker. What do you suggest then.? Aside from bending over between now and
      next May and beyond. It’s a never ending cycle of Unionist establishment taking the piss with a reaction based on “it will be ok when they get swept from power”.

      Guess what, thats what happened last time and from what I see, it’s starting again.

      What’s the defenition of insanity?

      And before you call me a troll, or suggest Im trying to help the BBC, Im not, just fucking angry and very frustrated.

    92. Betty Craney says:

      Just had a post appear on my FB page re the Scottish Independent newspaper…their office is opened from 13th October in Dundee . I tried googling it to find out more about it but no joy . Anybody know who owns it or if it’s a daily , weekly ,online or in print ?

    93. Oneironaut says:

      @Scotspine
      “Im not, just fucking angry and very frustrated.”

      Me too. But the truth is that 55% of our population threw away the only chance we had to force change.

      Now we have no power, hence the regular piss-taking.

      If someone comes up with an idea for a way to restore that power we had last month, then I’ll be happy to get behind that. Until then, what can we do?

    94. SquareHaggis says:

      Would it be possible to start a thread on the subject of “why no voters voted no”?

      Was speaking to a couple of no’ers in the pub at the weekend and they were fair waxing lyrical.

      Most had a beef about policy and had nothing personal against the YES movement as some were from their own families.

      Nobody fell out over this discussion and in fact I’d say it was quite constructive.

      Perhaps something we could analyse and put to the policymakers moving forward?

    95. Free Scotland says:

      The Scotsman – Busted for the umpteenth time!

    96. Helena Brown says:

      I am away to read my book, just getting angrier and angrier. I have just voted for the Deputy Leader of the SNP as well. About the only thing worth while today.

    97. Capella says:

      O/T
      RT video of the police arrests in Parliament Square yesterday morning
      http://rt.com/uk/197808-police-protest-parliament-square/

    98. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @ Capella

      But to me is the damn near certainty, from the US Free market model, that the “daily liar” is veritably stuffed

      When you look at the big stuff, it seems to me that somebody with deep pockets is paying for the off-books, publicity?

    99. Grouse Beater says:

      The perplexing aspect of voting No is, what group or tribe or ethos do those people think they have joined?

      They joined no one and got nothing in return.

      Yes voters voted for comradeship, camaraderie, mass hope and change, and ownership of their nation.

      And some No voters are happy?

      They’re happy they taught themselves a lesson and got screwed over?

    100. chalks says:

      @Betty Craney

      It’s a monthly.

    101. Stanjay says:

      Today’s Times (Scotland) front page was such blatant propaganda that I had to Google Fiscal Affairs Scotland. I know there’s been a little tension between Wings and Bella in the last few days (hopefully resolved) but my search took me to this excellent article from 2012. Looks to me like John McLaren’s not the worst of this bunch. http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2012/02/23/the-professor-the-think-tank-the-black-black-oil/

    102. Scotspine says:

      Grousebeater.

      I think that the sole driving factor wiit many No voters is pure and overwhelming selfishness.

      Selfishness in that they don’t care about anyone else except their own status and personal wealth.

      They have no tribe concept ( oo and BNP types aside ).

    103. galamcennalath says:

      Luigi says:
      “We have to now do the same for DevoMax – the BBC MSM now have the bit between their teeth and want to completely discredit it. The good news is that, at 60-70% current popular support for DevoMax”

      Yes, I think the immediate focus should be to get behind Devo Max. It is clear the Unionists fear and loath the idea just as much as independence. It is a reasonable compromise as things stand …and that situation is that most Scots want it.

      Personally I don’t think there’s a snowball’s chance of it being delivered. However, it’s popular and it’s a compromise. Those suggesting we fall back to less must be made to look unreasonable and proposing an unpopular option.

      If we do get Devo Max (as promised) then it’s a big step in the right direction. If we are denied it, then we are back to independence or almost nothing, with Indy looking the only real option.

      The third option, is of course the Poisoned Chalice of more taxes or poorer services from Devo Trap! This we need to guard against.

    104. Stoker says:

      Scotspine says:
      22 October, 2014 at 2:21 pm
      “Stoker. What do you suggest then.?
      Aside from bending over between now and next May and beyond.”

      Well, i certainly wouldn’t recommend bending over, i would
      imagine that route to be fraught with pain and suffering.
      🙂
      I would recommend what i always recommend – that people take
      positive law abiding action against the BBC at EVERY turn,
      starting with the cancellation of their TV licence.
      Nothing speaks louder than a severe dent in revenue.

      “And before you call me a troll, or suggest Im trying to help the BBC,
      Im not, just fucking angry and very frustrated.”

      I thought my use of ‘smileys’ would have been sufficient
      enough for you to understand i was making light of your post
      whilst informing you, and others, of how the BBC use the text
      message service to raise extra revenue. I thought you would
      have got that, but obviously not.

      And no, i certainly didn’t call you a troll and the fact i’m
      replying to you right now shows that i don’t think you’re a troll.

      Angry? Frustrated? Yip, i get that, aren’t we all.
      Don’t let it eat away at you.
      I know its easier said than done, but you have to
      try and rise above it. We have a war to be won.
      😉

    105. Stoker says:

      Here you are, Betty:
      http://www.scotsindependent.org/
      🙂

    106. Les Wilson says:

      Truth is all that all the MSM including all the Unionist parties are wanting to make the SNP unpopular by having to make unwanted cuts due reductions in our funding.
      One way or the other they intend screwing us.

      All of these entities are the enemies of Scotland ( I will probably be deleted for saying so). For myriads of reasons they all pay homage to Westminster. Yes, including the “proud Scots” we all know.

      If they don’t deliver meaningful, usable powers without any financial penalty. Then we need to raise our game. The forthcoming Westminster elections NEED to result in a Unionist graveyard in Scotland. We need as much Indy MP’s elected from Scotland as we can, then we can disrupt so many of Westminster’s plans, and be a right pain to them.

      Their deceit should come back at them.

    107. Robert Louis says:

      The problem is simply this, during the referendum campaign, the ‘Scottish’ media, including the propagandist BBC, pushed the boundaries of blatant propagandist behaviour. They discovered they could effectively do and say what the hell they liked, and openly lie repeatedly to the people of Scotland.

      Now, as they have learned they can say and do whatever they like, they will carry on doing so.

      Scotland is effectively living in an Orwellian nightmare, where the so-called ‘scottish’ media pumps out pro London and anti Scottish lies, in the full knowledge that NOBODY can do anything about it.

      The only person, to my knowledge to have challenged the so called ‘scottish’ media on their daily does of lies, has been Rev Stuart Campbell.

      http://www.thedrum.com/news/2014/09/25/scotsman-pays-out-wings-over-scotland-over-accusations-against-founder-rev-stuart

      As regards the Scotsman, it needs asked in what other country of the world, would a so-called serious broadsheet national newspaper, repeatedly print unfounded nonsense, on its front page which is designed to make its own country look pathetic, weak and stupid. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, every single so-called ‘journalist’ in Scotland should be run out of town, and sent to London, since apparently according to them, Scotland is crap, and London/England is freaking marvellously wonderful. Traitors to Scotland, the bl**ding lot of them. Slagging off Scotland every day of the week. GGGrrrrrr!

    108. Grouse Beater says:

      Looks to me like John McLaren’s not the worst of this bunch.

      Those people, like the No Border phonies, are no different from the doctors and surgeons who took consultancy largesse and ‘research’ money from tobacco companies to claim there was no link between smoking and lung cancer.

      In many cases their ‘institutions’ were and are financed wholly by said companies – see Koch empire.

      Those people ARE the cancer.

    109. EndofDaze says:

      Why is there always huge negative publicity about Scotland’s relatively small deficit and no mention of the UK’s massive one.
      During the referendum it was really frustrating to find that most No supporters believed that our £5bn deficit was an annual subsidy from England. Labour, Tory and Lib Dem along with the MSM tried to reinforce this misapprehension and the Yes side seemed unable to explain the difference between a deficit and a subsidy in simple terms.

    110. Scotspine says:

      Sorry Stoker. I wasn’t “cybershouting” at you. Its just I have a sinking feeling that the msm will run roughshod again. Actually, scrub that, they are already.

      I don’t advocate anything other than legal means of protest, but there has to be a way of quickly discrediting, defeating and destroying the msm, otherwise we don’t stand a chance.

    111. caz-m says:

      O/T The Scotsman:

      “Labour Yes group founder joins Scottish Socialists.”

      “Allan Grogan has left the Labour Party and is joining the SSP.”

      “Allan Grogan said Labour’s decision to campaign with the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats in favour of the union had “backfired spectacularly” and “now threatens the party’s very existence”.”

    112. gillie says:

      Labour’s deputy finance spokeswoman, Jenny Marra,”The SNP’s proposals to the Smith Commission would simply expose Scotland’s finances to falling oil revenues and unmanageable fiscal shocks exactly as independence would have. The people of Scotland will not accept a party walking into the commission arguing for powers for powers’ sake, especially when it will result in Scotland being £5bn worse off.”

      The unionist attack on Devo-Max (FFA) intensifies.

    113. AuldA says:

      @BtP:

      I have just voted in the SNP Deputy Leader vote, by the t’internet.

      How did you do that? You received a mail?

    114. galamcennalath says:

      Scotspine
      Grousebeater

      Basically most Tories for sure! Classic ‘I’m OK, to hell with the rest of you’ types.

      But I think that way of thinking goes beyond simply Tory voters. A third of the population are irredeemably self centred, perhaps? There are certainly many who are beyond persuasion.

      I still hold out the hope that more than half wish to live in a fairer more just society, enough to vote for it.

    115. fred blogger says:

      Robert Louis
      we must become the media.

    116. Robert Louis says:

      AuldA,

      There was a membership cut off date – can’t remember what it was, but it was around five days or so after the referendum, if I remember correctly.

      Like Bugger the Panda, I voted today, but I’ve been in the SNP for aeons.

      Came in an E-mail.

    117. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      AuldA

      yes

    118. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @ Robert Louis

      It it were a cut off date of 5 days, I must have limbo’ed my furry bum in.

    119. Training Day says:

      @Robert Louis

      We are indeed in an Orwellian nightmare. One of the key features of an Orwellian state is the denial of history. In this case, our MSM (99% controlled outwith Scotland), which told us but a month ago that devo max was the solution to the ‘woes’ of independence, has now embarked upon a campaign to discredit devo max and erase any notion that it had ever been propounded or insidiously promoted by any MSM outlets.

      By mid-November the MSM will have collectively reverted to the notion that a ‘No’ vote meant no change. Just watch.

      Orwell didn’t know the half of it.

    120. john macdonald says:

      You ain’t seen nothing yet. The unionist long-game here is to foist ‘additional powers’ on the SG in the name of devo max, in reality reducing the block grant and saddling Holyrood with inevitable budget cuts. SNP takes the blame and is voted out of office. SLAB (or unionist coalition) returns to power and goes begging to WM for more funds.

      Yes, you can have it, but only if WM has control of spending. Ergo, if WM always has to bail you out, what’s the point of having your own devolved administration? Devo max gets whittled down to devo even less, ultimately leading to the dissolution of SG and return to old status quo and complete control from WM. All with complicity of SLAB and unionist bedfellows.

      Might take a decade, but WM has patience, emasculating indy voices along the way with full MSM cooperation.

    121. MochaChoca says:

      Does anyone know who commissioned ‘Fiscal Studies Scotland’ to conduct this analysis?

      Pretty sure they wouldn’t be just doing this stuff for nothing, and it begs the question why not carry out similar analysis on the other proposals being put to the Smith Commission?

    122. caz-m says:

      BBC Scotland quote:

      “And the SNP’s policy of Devo-Max looks likely to be rejected by the Smith Commission.”

      When was Devo-Max ever an SNP policy.

      It was dreamt up by a twisted media and all the London Unionist Parties as a lie, so Scots would vote NO in the Referendum.

      Devo-Max quoted BEFORE the Referendum by:

      BBC Scotland
      The BBC
      Sky News
      ITV News
      Ch 4 News
      Ch % News
      Leading Unionist politicians
      All MSM Newspapers
      And large amounts of No Voters. (Orange Order etc…)

      Now they have turned the whole thing on it’s head and it is now being dumped at the SNPs front door.

    123. Scotspine says:

      Re Allan Grogan.

      John Finnie becomes an Independent MSP two years ago and this year joins THhe Greens – headline news of an SNP defecting to another party.

      Allan Grogan “defects” from Labour to SSP – sound of blowing wind and sight of tumbleweed in msm neighborhood.

      Incidentally, I emailed the BBC and queried their calling John Finnie’s move from being an Independent as a defection from the SNP. What was the BBC response? Yep, blowing wind and tumbleweed. They are no better than Pravda in the height of the soviet era (I was going to compare them to “Signal” magazine – German 1940 -1945, but that inference is what they label us with)

    124. Betty Craney says:

      Thanks to Chalks and Stoker ! ????

    125. MochaChoca says:

      Here are some detailed figures gleaned from PESA 2012/13:

      https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/330717/PESA_2014_-_print.pdf

      General Public Services:-
      of which: public and common services: £11,676m
      of which: international services: £8,012m

      Defence: £36,363m

      Public Sector Debt Interest: £48,373m

      A further £5,720m is spent on other government functions outwith the UK which Scotland would also contribute to.

      Total: £110,144m

      Scotland’s population share: £9,142m

      Expenditure within Scotland:-
      Public order and safety: £2,417m
      Economic affairs: £5,269m
      Environment Protection: £1,350m
      Housing and community amenities: £1,629m
      Health: £11,237m
      Recreation, culture and religion: £1,228m
      Eduction: £7,655m
      Social Protection: £22,154m

      This totals £62.081bn, the figure we would have expected as expenditure under full fiscal autonomy.

      However, the 2012-13 GERS figures indicate that Scotland’s expenditure under the current system to be £65.205bn.

      A difference of £3.124bn.

      Still a serious deficit, but it clearly shows Scotland’s deficit being proportionately lower that that of the UK, in a bad year for oil revenues.

      And that’s before taking into account any additional benefits of transferring a degree of control to be able to tailor economic factors to suit our own economy. Nor does it take account of the economic benefits of the creation of further devolved departments in terms of direct employment and the wider economic benefits of infrastructure and procurement for these departments. Things we already pay for, but the benefit of which are largely felt by London and the South East.

    126. gillie says:

      Daily Record, “Today is another milestone on the road to home rule

      The vow, “The Scottish parliament is permanent

      Not under home rule it ain’t.

      Home rule is not, however, comparable with federalism. Whereas states in a federal system of government (e.g., Canada, Federal Republic of Germany, Switzerland, Brazil, Ethiopia and the United States of America) have a guaranteed constitutional existence, a devolved home rule system of government is created by ordinary legislation and can be reformed, or even abolished, by repeal or amendment of that ordinary legislation.

    127. a2 says:

      I do believe we are ramping up to the “bayoneting” phase.

    128. Grouse Beater says:

      Galamcennalath: A third of the population are irredeemably self centred, perhaps?

      Fair comment, almost certainly true.

      “I will lose my research grant,” one sentiment heard by me.

    129. gillie says:

      We have found out two things today.

      1. Project Fear is now targeting and undermining devo-max.

      2. The Scottish parliament is not permanent and can still be abolished at any time by Westminster in the future.

    130. Scotspine says:

      caz-m

      So the Scotsman plays it as Allan Grogan “leaving” Labour and the BBC et al play John Finnie’s (left SNP two years ago to become an Independant)very recent move to the Greens as a “defection”.

      I contacted the BBC to ask them to justify their use of the word Defect to insinuate a direct move from SNP to Greens and therefore a blow to the SNP.

      Response? the lonely sound of blowing, whistling wind and the sight of a tumbleweed rolling across a deserted landscape…..

      The BBC needs crushed.

    131. Ken500 says:

      The Labour Party are liars. Even without Oil revenues Scotland raises more in taxes (pro rata) than the rest of the UK. The rest of the UK borrows and spends more.

      Total taxes raise in the UK. £490Billion.(13/14) Total taxes raised in Scotland including geographical oil share = £59Billion. (12/13). Enough with surplus for all Scotland’s needs.

      Why are the Labour/Unionists such liars.

      If Scotland spent differently ie no Trident, tax on ‘loss leading’ drink, etc and borrowed and spent (pro rata) the same as the rest of the UK (there would be debt repayments) Scotland would be £20Billion better off.

    132. caz-m says:

      You can just hear it getting repeated in workplaces, pubs and high streets throughout Scotland tonight and tomorrow:

      “BBC Scotland and STV said that Devo-Max will bankrupt Scotland, Devo-Max will put us in all sorts of debt. No I think we should forget about more powers, too many uncertainties.”

      Replace the word “Independence” with “Devo-Max” and you have Project Fear all over again.

    133. Andy-B says:

      O/T

      The DWP now calling disabled people, stock, a case of dehumanising.

      http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/21/cleansing-stock-doublespeak-people-killing

      Regarding newspaper men, the ex-editor of the Washington Post Ben Bradlee, has died Bradlee help bring down President Nixon.

    134. arthur thomson says:

      Yes it has all started over again – the lies put out by the BBC/MSM. If we don’t start doing something about it we are going to lose the general election as well and worse still, our side are going to become demoralised. I don’t have an answer to this beyond believing that we must get a newspaper on the streets. It doesn’t have to do the investigative work that Wings does so well. It does need to expose and publicise daily that the lies and spin have started again and to point the finger at the culprits. It also has to provide the general kinds of article that people are used to reading for entertainment. If anyone else is of my view and wants to explore how it can be done please email me at seaforth1 at outlook.com

    135. Morag says:

      I’m really surprised that Blair Jenkins seems to have departed the scene. was he simply on a contract for the duration? And so committed to the terms of his contract rather than to the independence campaign?

      Uh-huh. I really, really hope my darkest suspicions about all this are completely wrong.

    136. Robert Louis says:

      Given that submissions to the Smith commission have NOT ended, I would like to see Lord Smith speak up loud and clear, to tell the media and politicians who are quite literally making things up, to shut the F up.

      There is a formal process for submission, yet we see politicians and the media now happily telling everyone what will not be included.

      It is making an absolute mockery of Lord Smith and his commission.

      Submissions for the Smith commission formally close on 31st October, at 5PM.

    137. AuldA says:

      @BtP, @Robert Louis:

      Ok, thanks. I must have joined something like a week or so after the referendum, so I guess it’s normal.

      By the way, BtP, did you receive your membership card? In fact, I got several mail from the SNP, but never the ‘confirmation e-mail’ whose existence was somehow implied by some other messages. Did you?

    138. Stoker says:

      Scotspine says:
      22 October, 2014 at 3:19 pm
      Sorry Stoker. I wasn’t “cybershouting” at you. Its just I have a sinking feeling that the msm will run roughshod again. Actually, scrub that, they are already.
      I don’t advocate anything other than legal means of protest, but there has to be a way of quickly discrediting, defeating and destroying the msm, otherwise we don’t stand a chance.
      ___________________

      No need for apologies.
      We are all in the same boat watching our land sink.

      Yes, there has to be a way, but until someone with the brains
      comes up with the idea it is down to us to do whatever we can.

      One idea might be for the SNP or Yes Alliance to employ a top
      team of Barristers/QC’ (or whatever) to hammer them at every
      opportunity. Costly and time consuming though.

      Defeating the unionist machine will never happen overnight –
      nor will it be easy – but it will be defeated.

      Nothing worth having ever came without a fight.

    139. muttley79 says:

      @Training Day

      We are indeed in an Orwellian nightmare. One of the key features of an Orwellian state is the denial of history. In this case, our MSM (99% controlled outwith Scotland), which told us but a month ago that devo max was the solution to the ‘woes’ of independence, has now embarked upon a campaign to discredit devo max and erase any notion that it had ever been propounded or insidiously promoted by any MSM outlets.

      By mid-November the MSM will have collectively reverted to the notion that a ‘No’ vote meant no change. Just watch.

      Agreed. I reckon Wings should put up the video of Jackie Bird saying to Darling that we would get Devo max in the event of a No vote in a prominent place somewhere on this website. It would serve as a constant remainder of the duplicity, deceit and corruption of the BBC in Scotland.

    140. caz-m says:

      Scotspine

      I wouldn’t hold my breathe waitin on a reply from the BBC.

      I wrote to them about nine years ago when they decide to tilt the earth and shrink Scotland down to about half the size of Cornwall on their BBC weather map.

      I was beelin, but the BBC didn’t give a shit about how I felt, because I am still waiting on a reply.

    141. Valerie says:

      I was in Tesco, and because I don’t buy the MSM rags, obvs, I do that thing walking around the newspaper bit, reading the front pages. I could have just sat down and wept, because Express and others carrying same story.

      I felt like screaming at folk – is no-one here bothered that people in the media are starting the kicking all over again, before we are even off the f**king starting blocks?

      How can people live and work in this country, and never tire of running it down? These people have no morals whatsoever.

    142. Stoker says:

      Morag says:
      22 October, 2014 at 4:20 pm
      I’m really surprised that Blair Jenkins seems to have departed the scene. was he simply on a contract for the duration? And so committed to the terms of his contract rather than to the independence campaign?

      Uh-huh. I really, really hope my darkest suspicions about all this are completely wrong.
      _____________________

      Penny for your thoughts.

    143. Helena Brown says:

      All I can say is that at least 45% of this country now know we are being fed mince, lies call it what you want. I have no idea how we educate the remaining 55% who live in blissful ignorance.
      Valerie I do the same but I use Paperboy. Then I cannot read the articles and save my sanity.

    144. Mealer says:

      9 out of 20 voters voted Yes to independence.Many more supported independence but were afraid to vote for it on the day.The unionist majority is elderly and declines each day.A big majority of Scottish children have atleast one Yes voter in their house.Unionist newspaper sales are declining rapidly.Thousands of us every day are having conversations with No voters to undermine their confidence in the state broadcaster.The independence movement is stronger now than it has ever been.
      CHEER UP EVERYBODY! Our day will come.

    145. Tattie-bogle says:

      Heres 10p where is my 3 quid change

    146. Dr Jim says:

      I print little card sized leaflets,and all they say in big letters is, “NEWSPAPERS LIE. AND THEN ASK YOU TO PAY THEM TO DO IT”, I then go to my local supermarkets and drop them in the foyer newspaper displays. I did get caught at an Asda store once but because i was’nt taking anything away they could’nt think what to do so they did nothing
      I don’t know whether it has any effect but it sure makes me feel a bit better, and i still go to the same Asda although i don’t shop there, Aldi’s all the way, although watch out for the “Frasers pies” they’re not Scottish meat– “British” Fresh Scottish Fish “Morrisons” Tesco’s for Fags
      Every little helps

    147. Morag says:

      Guys, some people are getting confused between the Scots Independent, the monthly newspaper linked to the SNP which has been on the go since about the 1920s (and which has one of the worst web sites it has ever been my misfortune to view), and the Scottish Independent, a brand-new entry with an almost equally horrible web site which is making some ambitious claims but which hasn’t yet delivered much.

    148. Morag says:

      Penny for your thoughts.

      Uh, not now. I tend to be torn limb from limb when I go into detail on that one. And it’s only a suspicion, anyway. Nothing concrete.

    149. Stoker says:

      Mealer says:
      22 October, 2014 at 4:49 pm
      “…The unionist majority is elderly and declines each day…
      Unionist newspaper sales are declining rapidly…
      The independence movement is stronger now than it has ever been.
      CHEER UP EVERYBODY! Our day will come.”
      ___________________
      HERE, HERE. 🙂
      https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/s526x296/224427_315656775225504_172450504630162908_n.jpg?oh=7972b4779c779d761afdaafdf64aed79&oe=54BBC58C

    150. Morag says:

      In my experience No voters have all sorts of reasons, some rational, some misinformed. Some are selfish but certainly not all.

      I had several conversations with an elderly neighbour who was obviously a heart “Yes” but believed the scare stories. She said it was such a difficult decision, and she wasn’t deciding for herself because she wouldn’t be here long enough to see it go pear-shaped after the oil ran out but she was thinking of the young people and generations yet to come.

      I could have sworn she was going to vote No. But then when I met her at church three days after the referendum, she immediately turned to me, put her hand on my arm, and said, “it’s coming yet, for a that!”

      Sometimes people are just weird.

    151. Dr Jim says:

      Apparantly according to BBC Index, high street spending for boots and coats went down in September due to uncertainty over the Independance Referendum
      Work that one out for yourself, maybe i’m missing something? Nope! Still cant figure it out…

    152. Faltdubh says:

      Valerie, here, here and I hear you.

      I know a no voter who said he didn’t vote, but I don’t believe him. He was concerned about prices going up and so on, he believed it all – all that pardon my English, PISH that the media printed and told him. Tried everything to persuade him, as did others with more of an education than me. One of the hardcore Nos yet now he’s adapted the idea that independence is a good idea, just not now. I just cannot understand this mindset. There’s never going to be a perfect time.

      Another no voter I know. Thankfully, I don’t know too many. Constantly runs the place (Scotland and Britain) down. The country is finished, we are so behind the rest of Europe, etc etc. So when giving the chance to try and better that. He voted no. Again, no engagement at all with the debate – a firm no voter. I lost my rag with him recently, but he’s a friend and I’m deeply trying to not talk politics with him. He made no effort and again sniping about him on here isn’t exactly moral, but doesn’t have a Standard Grade!

      Many people out there are basically happy to “eat their cereal”. None of them have done any research in to the ticking timebomb that is the UK’s finances, TTIP, the EU referendum, UKIP’s growth. As long as they get Britain’s Got Talent, MOTD etc and can shut themselves off from the politicians – they are fine.

      The press as we all know have no reason to tell the truth. They’ve or most of them have admitted this on various TV, Radio shows even in the run out/after of the ref. They have their own agenda which they will follow. I’d love to see a survey of Scotland to see how many people think they have a honesty charter etc, I’d guess, many are very naive!

      Find myself going through a Love-Hate thing with Scotland at the moment. Even simple stuff like a folk song, or watching the football team, or laughing at that pathetic excuse of a Rugby team we have – then try wind it in because bugger it, I voted for all that! It’s my country alright. It’s not theirs.

      Might not sound right, but still a month or so on. I’m frustrated at such a lost opportunity. I’m positive and pushing that into having joined the SNP (Voted for Deputy) today etc and hoping we can smash Labour and many Libs out of Scotland next May. So there’s some light,but I can absolutely hear your frustration at a good number of our fellow countrymen and women.

      Rambles gu leor, but anyhoos, sorry, I went on a bbity.

    153. David Stevenson says:

      Surely the Scottish Government should be able to use it’s civil servants to perform an economic analysis of the different models presented to Smith and expose the Unionist bullshit?

    154. Stoker says:

      orag says:
      22 October, 2014 at 5:14 pm
      Penny for your thoughts.
      Uh, not now. I tend to be torn limb from limb when I go into detail on that one. And it’s only a suspicion, anyway. Nothing concrete.
      _____________________

      Fair enough,
      I’m sure you’ll share if and or when its appropriate to do so.

    155. Robert Louis says:

      Ach Morag,

      ‘I know something…..Blair jenkins….wink, wink…’

      QUOTE : “It’s only a suspicion anyway”

      So until it’s FACT, gie it a rest, FFS.

      In the nicest possible way.

    156. YESGUY says:

      Morag

      Regarding B.Jenkins. I suspect he’s glad it’s all over. He was pretty ineffective but i believed he wanted to keep things quiet and non threatening . Alex Salmond pointed out that MP’s were held by the strictures of office and by stepping down he would be able to say more. Blair had non of these restrictions. But played MR Niceguy when he should have been doing much more.

      His ” distancing ” from Wings on live tv for the whole country to see sent alarm bells ringing . In truth he was a poor choice.

      When your fighting for the freedom of your country you use your “big guns” . BJ was a mouse when we needed lions.

      The comments today are angry and frustrated and rightly so but i ask you guys to have a wee bit more patience. The SNP will have plans including hopefully and alliance. But we’re gonna have to wait .

      In the meantime the bias and spin will go on and on. If this was March or April i would be a wee bit worried . But it’s still early days and i hope (and pray) they have started off the attacks too soon. By May they will have ran out of shit to throw and i believe we will have enough ammo to put a big majority of indi MP’s into WM

      wishful thinking ??

      Maybe , but the comments today show me there are many ready and willing to fight on . Never give up. And we are much more informed and experienced now.

      It fills me with hope. 🙂

    157. McBoxheid says:

      Slightly OT
      EVEL or is it EVIL run by that Axis of EVIL,
      E(stablishment)VIL(lains)

    158. YESGUY says:

      Faltdubh

      You are not alone.

      Patience my friend. Slowly we are gaining . YES voters know the score. We don’t have to convince 50% only another 1/10 and we are there. Once a YESSER ALWAYS A YESSER.

    159. Jim Thomson says:

      Just a thought …

      This is an open forum and we seem to happily discuss strategy and tactics on it. Not a good thing. That needs to be kept in a closed set of fora.

      By all means dissect the crap that the MSM and politicians spout, but please don’t let us make the same mistake that we made in the run up to the IndyRef by airing our ideas and proposals in public.

      Let’s keep the nay-sayers in the dark.

    160. muttley79 says:

      @Jim Thompson

      Where else are we going to discuss tactics etc? Wings is not a political party, I do not believe that unionists read this website because they think the SNP’s top strategists post here.

    161. Lollysmum says:

      David Cameron has confirmed today that FFA is on the table for Smith commission.
      http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2014/oct/full-fiscal-autonomy-table

    162. Blair Jenkins: excellent communicator but way too nicey nicey. He must’ve known where the bodies were buried at the BBC yet all we got was the “a positive campaign will always, etc, etc.” Aye, that one really worked out well. What we needed was an Alistair Campbell who’d batter down the doors of the news studio demanding to be interviewed live on air. Not everyone responds to the carrot. Some folk need the stick and plenty of it.

    163. manandboy says:

      Let’s be clear. No – let’s be absolutely clear.

      The UK Government have made it absolutely clear
      that there will be no properly democratic solution
      to resolve the differences between Scotland and England.

      All the unionist parties have set out their stall with ruthless intent.
      Their banner plan is to ensure, come what may, that Scotland’s wealth will remain under Westminster control forever.

      The question then for Yes voters with ambitions for Independence is – How long will it take for that message to sink in and produce the resolve necessary to establish Independence?

      The McCrone Report still hasn’t sunk in, and it was written in 1974 – 40 years ago.
      So there isn’t much hope of the reality of Westminster’s current plans, sinking in to the voting minds of the Scottish people, if at the speed of McCrone, till the year 2054.

      With a largely illiterate population in political and economic terms, and with no hope in the short or even medium term of a change in who controls the media, hope of winning Independence at the ballot box would seem slim indeed.

      Even now however, the hard reality of the numerical and political power of the British State, is being dismissed with talk of winning next time, or the next time after that.

      The creation of new TV Stations with better organisation through huge increases in party membership is terrific – but will it be sufficient?

      And, all the while, the BBC & the Press are pouring propaganda into the minds of millions of Scots on a daily basis, around 900,000 of whom are elderly and who have the TV on all day every day and with the Daily Record on the coffee table.

      The presence of such huge fresh political energy for change cannot be denied. But can it reach it’s goal in Independence, before it is divided or diverted or just outflanked by a dark and experienced unionist opposition?

      What about the others who have been here before us? How did they fare against the same Establishment power? Not very well; until, at the cost of lives, Independence for them was gained the hard way. Come in Mr Ghandi and tell us all about it.

      There was a lot of talk around Indy that we in Scotland were going to get Independence without a single bullet being fired. The only reason no bullets were fired was because they weren’t needed. But were the bullets ready? Waiting. This is the British Empire we’re dealing with here.

      And I’m sure there are voices which will insist that we simply MUST be the first country ever to achieve Independence by purely peaceful and democratic means. Well, mine isn’t one of them. Not now. Not when I saw the Indy debacle and watching now the Smith Commission make weary progress and hear the foolish jibberings of the British Prime Minister.

      Speaking at Holyrood shortly after Indy, Christine Grahame offers the path of the sovereignty of the Scottish people leading to a simple declaration of Independence. Here’s hoping it gains maximum traction.
      I like Christine. She thinks independently; ‘outside the box’ as they say and is not shackled by the accepted and conventional wisdom, so-called, of the Union Establishment.

      There may be other paths to independence. If so, good. Let’s give them a try too.

      As for those bullets. It may well come to that. At Arbroath, they had that one sorted too.

    164. @ Andy-B
      Ben Bradlee was a CIA stooge who helped in bringing down Nixon and ultimately led to Bush 1 becoming director of CIA.
      He also had connections in `Operation Mockingbird` where the CIA infiltrated the media the organization recruited leading American journalists into a network to help present the CIA’s views,
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird

    165. muttley79 says:

      @Scot Finlayson

      Where is the evidence that Ben Bradlee was a CIA agent or employee?

    166. Devorgilla says:

      Don’t talk like that on a public forum, Man and boy.

    167. velofello says:

      C’mon folks, tool up for the next phase of the independence campaign. Funny thing about losing heart and giving up, you’re still breathing but you’re a quitter.

      Following the Smith Commission’s reasoned deliberations Scotland will be offered, …lets say devolved income tax collection. Scotland with a low salary economy, much too many people on benefits will be empowered to collect, raise or lower income tax. The tax income of real substance – oil and gas, power generation, food, beverages, technology? Eh no. The Barnett Formula “handout” will then be adjusted, by how much, decided by whom? And where does this Barnett formula money come from? Is it simply a chunk of the UK’s deficit? Yes deficit, the UK spends more than it earns. Scotland on the other hand being an exporting country should not be running a deficit unless, of course our landlord – the UK – charges us much more for services than is justifiable. Eh mebbe?

      Please wakey wakey. We are facing up to cheats and liars. We have to find a way to bring awareness of the MSM and BBC, and STV, distortions to the No voters who don’t do “the internet” and failed to listen to us first time around. Today a comment from a delivery man “I don’t know anyone who voted No”. Translation – who will admit to it.

      @ Morag: If I were Blair Jenkins I’d be angry, defiant, and ready for the next phase of the campaign. So was he simply a hired gun, or worse?

    168. @ muttley79
      From Wiki
      In 1952 Bradlee joined the staff of the Office of U.S. Information and Educational Exchange (USIE), the embassy’s propaganda unit. USIE produced films, magazines, research, speeches, and news items for use by the CIA throughout Europe.

    169. Robert Peffers says:

      @Iain Brown says:22 October, 2014 at 11:54 am:

      “I’m sure Westminster will attempt to portray Scotland as incapable of self government. It was their main claim in the debate.”

      Now just why would anyone believe that the wee country that has invented just about every useful thing in the World including …

      Wait for it! …

      Wait for it! …

      Wait for it! …

      Scotland officially invented Sex : –

      http://audiochain-version-3.boards.net/thread/411/official-scotland-invented

    170. muttley79 says:

      @Scot Findlayson

      I need a lot more than Wikipedia sources to be convinced that Bradlee was CIA.

    171. Oneironaut says:

      @manandboy
      You said it.

      In the weeks following the referendum result, I’d heard a lot of people claiming “we lost a battle, but we’ll win the war”, and I really wanted to believe there was still a chance within my lifetime.

      But so far everything I’ve seen shows only a pale shadow of the powerful grassroots movement that existed during the independence campaign.

      Little things such as arguing among ourselves over issues such as which party we follow, things that were considered trivial when the Yes Alliance had us all focused towards a single goal…

      We all know that Westminster will NEVER allow another referendum to happen. They know how close they came to having their power broken that time.
      They have too much to lose, and the chances of former Nos changing their minds is too much of a risk for them to take. They can’t allow it to happen again.

      If it ever does happen, it’ll be more like Catalonia’s situation where we have a referendum and Westminster refuses to recognise the result (unless it’s another No in which case they’ll crow about it everywhere they can).

      What will happen then?

      I’m no strategist, I can’t think of any ideas that can’t be countered by the establishment and their media puppets.
      I’m just hoping we can patch up the cracks that are forming in the movement and find some plan that they can’t counter.
      I’d hate to have to finally give up on this.

    172. Inkall says:

      Off Topic:

      I was wondering if any of the planned truely Scottish Media groups were looking at the potential for Scots and Gaelic language articles?

      Of course at this early stage I would assume English to make sure a majority nationally and internationally can take a look but the old “Scots is just a dialect” thing is often at the back of my mind.

    173. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s not surprising the Labour CPPR, sorry Fiscal Affairs Scotland, having attacked Independence as part of the Labour Party, is now attacking the SNP as part of the Labour Party, and twisting, sorry spinning sorry, presenting figures that back up the Labour party’s pathetic Smith submission while attacking, sorry, throwing jobbies at the SNP.

      On the other hand I’m far more optimistic about Smith delivering a good outcome for Independence, as either it does nothing in which case Labour is a dead duck, extinct, rotting in the water, or it delivers a substantial package of powers which just slows the game a little, while allowing Scotland to remove at least some of the uncertainties causing 47% of the 55% of Scots who voted NO, to vote NO.

      It needs to be remembered that as well as those 500,000 who may have been taken in by the vow, 940,000 actually wanted Independence but were afraid it was a step too far just now. That makes a natural majority of 2,540,000 for YES, against 1,060,000 against, add some of those 500,000 who may well evolve from Devo-Mac to full Indy.

      Well, it’s not just CPPR who can “present” figures in a way that suits their very strong and unethical, unprofessional political bias.

    174. Restlessnative says:

      @Robert Peffers

      We may have invented sex but we’ve only been getting f@%ked for the last 300 years!!

    175. Gallowglass says:

      @Oneironaut

      Defeat the media. Or at least compete.

      No simple task.

    176. yesindyref2 says:

      HandandShrimp 11.11 am
      Yes, the full Labour machine is being devolved I mean deployed, to save EVEL and Labour at Westminster.

      I think they’ve read Scotland wrong, and it is more awake than they realise. We just have to keep telling people what’s actually going on, that it’s not for Scotland these people are working, including the likes of CPPR and Curtice, but for the self-preservation society of Labour.

    177. Valerie says:

      Just to take up the point mentioned by Jim Thomson, the best way to discuss tactics in in a closed group on Facebook. Easy access, you can control the entry to the group. You can have different threads running.

      If we wanted to feel useful doing some small lawful, but perhaps irritating actions, that would be the way to go.

      I think people do need to bear in mind this forum is pretty well known, and there will be regular lurkers.

    178. Stoker says:

      Dave Beveridge says:
      22 October, 2014 at 6:02 pm
      Blair Jenkins: excellent communicator but way too nicey nicey. He must’ve known where the bodies were buried at the BBC yet all we got was the “a positive campaign will always, etc, etc.” Aye, that one really worked out well…
      _________________

      C’mon, Dave, you have to admit, we did pretty damn well against
      the relentless onslaught of the evil empires rancidly corrupt
      media machine and their collaborating Slabbers.
      Yes, in the end it wasn’t good enough, but we take with us a lot
      of new experience, from lessons learned, into the next round.

      As for BJ being “way too nicey nicey” – 100% bang-on.
      In a political fight for the future prosperity and wellbeing of
      our country – nice doesn’t cut it.

      I expect our campaign leaders and politicians to be far more
      robust and stern in their support of our cause and i expect
      them to be utterly relentless with liars.

      Nobody ever wants them to stoop to Slabbers negative tactics of
      lies and personal attacks, but we do demand that they STOP
      leaving us looking like wilting pansies.

      I want to see the fire in their belly’s.

      Liking your wee avatar, btw, its a stoater.
      🙂

    179. Lenny Hartley says:

      Oneironaut

      We don’t need a freeking referendum or Wastminsters permission to hold one, the Scottish People are sovereign if we have a 50% +1 majority vote for a party promising to abolish the Treaty of Union, that’s all we need.

      The referendum route was only taken as part of a softly softly route which ultimately failed, 50% +1 is all we need, I have already spelt out a way towards this and I will repeat in case nobody has seen it.

      In the 2016 Scottish Elections the SNP stand on one ticket only, to abolish the treaty of union, if we get 50% +1 in the first past the post part then we do that, if not, even through we are the biggest party we decline to take power and let Labour take over, give them enough rope!!!

      They will have to deal with the consequences of more austerity cuts and will abolish free prescriptions, bus passes, high education etc.

      At the same time the Tories/UKIP will be on the verge of taking the UK out of Europe. That’s when the SNP group with the help of the Greens and other pro indy parties force a no confidence motion and defeat the sitting minority administration. The resulting Election will be a massive victory for the SNP – Simples.

    180. There is no VOTE on what the Smith Commission is discussing. So they can say what they will about Devo-Max or this or that. Smith might turn out to be a piece of shit, time will tell.
      The big thing is the GE. Thats when the nazi BBC and MSM will be against the SNP starting now.
      But we either get powers or we don’t but whatever said in media isn’t going to affect Smith one way or the other, it will be his political masters.

    181. seanair says:

      I was pleasantly surprised that STV News didn’t mention the black hole, even though they touched on the Commission and Ponsonby could have mentioned it.
      Although I don’t watch BBC Scotland news, I was also surprised that it did not feature on BBC teletext, and VERY surprised to learn from the BBC that youth unemployment is 5.6% lower than a year ago at 16.7%, that the number of people killed and injured on Scotland’s roads fell by 10% in 2013 the lowest since records began, and that the volume of manufactured export sales from Scotland grew by 2.8% during the second quarter of 2014.
      Good news from the Beeb—amazing!

    182. Devo-max the public won’t be getting a vote so the bbc msm can say what they want, it shouldn’t influence Smith.
      What appears to be happening is the BBC.MSM are beginning the start of the GE campaign.

    183. Devo-max not being voted on. Smith should not be influenced by the media who talk about Devo max.
      Seems the BBC and MSM started the GE campaign already.

    184. liz says:

      @seanair – that’s so they can claim they are impartial if any more surveys done on them.

      Its far enough away from the GE not to matter too much – don’t trust them ever.

    185. MacCumhail says:

      This website is excellent. I am so glad it exists. Where would we be without it?
      Thanks Rev.

    186. STARLAW says:

      Its a waiting game now, the most boring part of the game, next big thing is the GE and the more guff that MSN pours out , the more normal it becomes and the less heed is paid to it. The little boy who cried wolf . .

    187. MacCumhail says:

      Also, I will bet those same journalists read this page too.

      How does it feel to read a level of journalism so far above what you are writing? Why are you mainstream journalists so piss poor at your profession?

      Don’t believe me? Compare the readership figures.

    188. Aspen says:

      Went to have a look at the Democracy Demo in Parliament Square about 5pm. The grassed area is all fenced off – “For Repairs”. There seemed to be more police than demonstrators, one of whom told me people were put off coming because of the media reporting of violent arrests. I found the atmosphere or apathy most disturbing.

    189. Marian says:

      In the words of the Proclaimers the it would appear that Hootsmon will soon be “no more” as their sales have now plummeted to such an extent that they were been forced to move out of their recently built HQ at Holyrood on cost grounds into a rented shared office at Orchard’s Brae Edinburgh over the summer.

      Even Subway man’s “subsidy for student’s” bribe could never have saved the Scotsman from itself.

    190. boris says:

      Willie Bain Glasgow North East makes great mention of his roots being in the community in his campaign. All to the detriment of those who stand against him. But something is not right. At the time of his first election. He claimed he was employed as a 3 day lecturer in a London College.

      Taking up £75 x 3 hotel accommodation, near Euston each week. Allowing £25 each day for meals and £15 each day for incidentals his monthly expenditure would have been 12 x £115 x 9 = £12,420.

      Add £300 return flights Glasgow-London-Glasgow + travel to and from Heathrow £25 x 2 weekly x 4 monthly x 9 months = £12,600.

      Total overall expenditure = £12,420 + £12,600 = £25,020

      If, as he claimed he resided with his parents on the other 4 days of each week it would be prudent to add an appropriate daily living cost allowance of £30 x 4 x 4 x 9 = £4,320.

      Add the 3 months he would be at home during college recesses = £30 x 7 x 12 = £2,520.

      Overall annual expenditure = £25,020 + £4,320 + £2,520 = £31,860.

      Mr Bain, after nearly 10 years of university study doesn’t even possess a Phd? which would be the minimum qualification expected of a lecturer.

      It just doesn’t add up. Is he for real? Can anyone throw light on the matter?

    191. Macsenex says:

      It’s essential that the Scottish Parliament has control of Inheritance Tax. If used imaginatively it could encourage a substantial cohort of ageing residents to leave Scotland when they retire and reduce the shingles population. Many of these folk die in Scotland but their wealth leaves the country as their descendants live outwith Scotland so the money doesn’t circulate in the Scottish economy. In their later years these folk are s drain on our care services.

      Inherited wealth in England is a big political issue , part of the me thing even beyond the grave.

    192. Natasha says:

      @Macsenex 8.10pm

      I know there’ve been various jokes on here about the older No voters dying off and thereby increasing the proportion of Yes voters in the overall population, and I’ve smiled at them as much as anyone else, but your last comment about these people being a drain on our care services was really unpleasant. I thought one of the main reasons for voting Yes was to try and build a fairer more caring society. Surely looking after our elderly is an important part of that?

    193. archieologist says:

      It is clear that the Unionist parties and media want to give the impression to a gullible Scottish electorate that by devolving some powers on income tax to Scotland that this is ceding important new powers to Holyrood.

      This is nothing but a cynical ploy. Even if all income tax were raised in Scotland, without control over indirect taxation , powers over income tax are’nt worth a row of beans!
      If a Scottish Govt wanted to increase income tax to fund projects in Scotland it would immediately be accused of making Scotland uncompetitive with the rest of the UK and penalising Scottish taxpayers compared with those in the rest of the UK. On the other hand if a Scottish Govt wanted to reduce income tax, which would be popular, it would not have the income from indirect taxation such as Corporation Tax or Oil Revenues, to balance the books as all of these tax revenues would still go to London. So any future Scottish Govt would be hamstrung and this is exactly the intention of the unionists.

      The unionist Smith Commission will not deliver devo max but a cobbled together series of measures from the unionist parties. Although the SNP may not wish to stand in the way of some more powers for Holyrood, it should make it clear that these fall far short of the powers promised in BTs VOW to the Scottish people .Devo max or something near to federalism was promised by Gordon Brown not the SNP.
      The SNP is the party of Independence and that is unfinished business !

    194. Kevin1 says:

      It looks like this page is full of negative talk just as much
      as MSM what I would like people to talk about, is what we
      are going to do if we get nothing close to the powers
      promised??

    195. schrodingers cat says:

      @Stoker
      @Scotspine

      dont text the bbc then, phone up kay(e), tell the telephonist your are a naw bag called dave then once on the show, give her both barrells, if 6.9 million people followed this line she would soon get the message

      smith commission, not interested, nothing coming our way
      ge, is another chance to hold their feet to the fire, even if we send 59 snp mps, if the tories or labour have an overall majority, they will ignore us

      nicola calls for a new ref in 2017

      in 3 years, 150.000 over 65’s will be dead, thats
      (71/29% no yes split) nos lose 105k, yes loses 45k

      in 3 years, 150,000 13,14,15 year olds will be eligible to vote
      thats
      (71/29% yes no split) nos gain 45k, yes gains 105k
      we need to claw back 200k votes to reach 50/50, thats 120k already with no one changing their mind

    196. ElaineS says:

      John McLaren’s email address via the Fiscal Affairs website for anyone that want’s to let him know we know what he is up to in his tpyical unionist scaremongering john [dot] mclaren43 [at] btopenworld [dot] com

    197. Grouse Beater says:

      Kevin: what we are going to do if we get nothing close to the powers promised??

      No precise powers were identified. It was a woolly ‘vow’ that the MSM immediately turned into Devo-Max, a category often argued meaning one thing or another.

      But if all we get are scraps, or the warring Westminster parties fall out with each other, (a likelihood) or offer a flimsy, superficial comromise, we are entitled to demand another referendum to renew the wish of the great majority of voters for more democratic structures. That should be done collectively, again as a mass movement.

      How many No voters will be moved to get out of bed is another question.

    198. jaygee says:

      I have noticed a certain tension being created by some contributors critisizing others based on their age(to the point of hastening their demise)as, according to them the majority of pensioners voted with the NO camp.
      This generation fought many battles against bosses and governments with pyrrhic victories ,they weakened the labour government to the point where it was glad to surrender power.
      There is also a tension building as educational snobbery is taking hold. If they want to get a majority in the GE that majority will not be created by the educated elite.
      I take they want democracy. We do need the ex labour supporters.
      I do not post much and do not intend to as I would rather absorb the wisdom of contributors.

    199. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scotspine says: 22 October, 2014 at 1:48 pm:

      “Does it really matter about the perceptions of the brainwashed? They won’t change their minds whatever.

      Oh! Give it a bloody rest! Let’s get a few things straight, shall we? These people voted NO and that was their right to do so. We here mostly know that the majority of them did so from ignorance of the real facts. In short they are not fools they were fooled.

      Most of us also know there are people out there with self-interests and we will not change them unless what self interests them is removed. For example I tried very hard to convince a lady who works in reception at a local medical practice. Her self-interest is that she is related to a Labour Party family with elected members.

      Now just consider this – if Westminster continues to privatise the English NHS the Barnett Consequentials will force cuts in the Scottish NHS and that lady’s job is probably on the line. If, however, none of her family were re-elected to office she will find there is no longer a reason to remain loyal to the party that caused both them and her to lose out.

      Then we have the old and the not so bright. They don’t yet know any better and because they didn’t know were frightened of change. These were targeted to the extent that many were told on their doorsteps that if they didn’t vote no a person would be round to take their pensions from them. Sadly these poor wreches will now find out the hard way that they voted for an even harder time but there is no doubt they will indeed find themselves worse off soon.

      So let us not blame the voters and place the blame where it belongs with the Establishment and that includes the media. I’ve done volunteer work almost all my life among the old, sick, disabled and those with learning difficulties, I know it isn’t their fault and I’ve seen, in particular Labour activists, “Helping”, those who could not comprehend they were being scammed to vote, often by proxy, for the candidate of their, (the helper’s), choice.

    200. Husker says:

      In popular fiction, politics is portrayed as a behind the scenes complex machine of deals done in smoke filled rooms and competing lobbyists doing anything to get what their clients want.

      When you look at this in real life especially in regards to the independence debate, it is obvious there is the grain of truth to this.

      The question is how can get this across to the ordinary man and woman in the street?

    201. MJC says:

      The game has started! I too struggle with mapping in my mind a clear strategy for the next 6 months or so. We need a shared vision to assist in helping us focus our pent up energy into actual action. There are loads of excellent ideas floating around here and across the indyscape that need grounded informed strategy attached and then either use them all.shelve some and use the rest.

      We can all do our own obvious campaigning now, by highlighting and promoting our cause to all and sundrae each and every opportunity. Whats missing so far is a “collective” a collective mission statment of sorts. Then we shall all have a shared vision to believe in and own. Enabling us to then identify where in the plan we can help individualy and collectively in a focused and cohesive manner.

      My hope and wish is that all pro indy parties provide this “collective” leadership to the still very much alive movement. Talk of alliances been made and drafted up is music to my ears. I think the real vision with real actions for all will be fully public just after the SNP conference.

      This alongside all the feking excellent creativity acredited to various other non party strands in our movement will be the fuel to re-ignite the fight,passion and focus that was so evident throughout the ref. That fight and passion hasnt gone it’s just been storming around looking for a harbour!

      P.S. first thing we need to do “collectively” is stop funding the bbc and paper print media. simples 😉

    202. Morag says:

      Ach Morag,

      ‘I know something…..Blair jenkins….wink, wink…’

      QUOTE : “It’s only a suspicion anyway”

      So until it’s FACT, gie it a rest, FFS.

      In the nicest possible way.

      That first bit wasn’t a quote, of course. Because I don’t know anything and I have never claimed to know anything. Plenty other people speculating complete mince, is there some reason I’m not allowed to play?

    203. caledonia says:

      General election get as much SNP as possible in then stand down leaving labour to run Scotland then the other 55% will be begging for indy

      Especially when they have to pay for prescriptions and tuition fees and council tax is unfrozen etc etc

    204. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scotspine says: 22 October, 2014 at 3:02 pm:

      “I think that the sole driving factor wiit many No voters is pure and overwhelming selfishness”.

      Here’s a wee bit of free advice, Scotspine, try knocking doors or otherwise just talking with, (not at), people and more to the point listening to them too. If you do it right you may just get a bit of an insight to what the other guy thinks. If you are really good at it you may even get an insight as to why the other guy thinks that way.

      Some people were frightened shitless of, for example, having their pension stopped. Just like some people are scared shitless by a tiny spider – it is called having a phobia and they cannot help it.

    205. Morag says:

      His ” distancing ” from Wings on live tv for the whole country to see sent alarm bells ringing . In truth he was a poor choice.

      When your fighting for the freedom of your country you use your “big guns” . BJ was a mouse when we needed lions.

      Someone suggested that Blair Jenkins was just a “hired gun”, doing the job for the salary without any great passion. I think that’s the best interpretation I can put on it. I expected people to be appointed to Yes Scotland who wanted independence as much as I did, but it doesn’t appear that’s what happened.

      Jenkins spoke pleasantly and repeated the right sound bites, but I never got the feeling that he really cared. Not during the campaign, and certainly not after the result. Everyone around me was gutted, but he managed to take it pretty well as far as I can see.

      In retrospect, a poor choice. I believe the whole “a positive campaign always beats a negative campaign” was his baby, but that’s what really scuppered the high-profile Yes strategy. It was impossible to explain to voters what was likely to happen as a consequence of a No vote, while sticking to that mantra.

      I just remember hearing about his appointment. I thought, who on earth is he? BBC? I didn’t know there was anyone high up in the BBC who supported independence. Well, I hope it’s a killer move, appointing someone with the inside knowledge to neutralise the BBC bias we all know is coming.

      Then I thought, I hope this is on the level. Because if I was MI5, one trick I wouldn’t miss would be trying to get my own candidate appointed to that post.

      I’d love some concrete evidence to convince me that was a baseless suspicion.

    206. The Flamster says:

      Bugger (the Panda)

      You probably won’t see this now that it’s at the end of this thread but, I got the same email. I contacted him through Newsnet and he writes as Auld Rock. I believe the email is a scam and I won’t be answering it as I have seen this type of email before.

    207. Dr Jim says:

      O.K Kids as i’ve stated before i’m 65 years of age and a member of the SNP so i guess that means i’ve been waiting for around 50 years for this. This team of SNP MSPs we have right now are the best we’ve ever had by a very long way and better than most of what’s at Westminster.You can join your Radical this, or your Fuzzy that, but remember who got us this far and the power you need to combat the Empire, we’re very small apart, together,we can scare them shitless
      The deal, will i think, not happen in the way most people think, there will be lots of twists and turns to come, i’ve seen it all before, BUT this time we’re very ready to cope.
      I do not , like others think there will be another referendum, there will be something else first, UKIP at this moment are 13 points ahead of the Tories and David Cameron has been told by JPJ in Brussells Freedom of movement will not be on the agenda go and Fun yourself, SO,the options open out further, I think you see where i’m going
      Oh and by the way,this site IS read by British Intelligence, it has to be ,it’s the law under the Prevention of Terrorism Act
      They’re a shower of thicko ponce boys down there but they do wise up eventually

    208. Kevin Evans says:

      Am now just in a constant state of rage

    209. Cunts, they’re Cunts I tell You! In fact, they are a bunch of Fucking
      Cunts!!!

    210. Jim IVY Morris says:

      When we elect only pro-Scotland non-Unionist MPs to Wm, besides asking about Devo whatevermore, they can be finding out the truth about exactly how much undeclared income WM extracts from all sectors of the Scottish economy and therefore from the pockets of the Scottish people. I lost count at £5 trillion.

    211. DrewSword says:

      See my comment re MSM in the Scottish Statesman – under ‘we’ve been framed.’ I’m too old and tired and sick too repeat it. Basically off your arses again and this time stop being so nice.

    212. chalks says:

      Wouldn’t it be funny if the tories offered devo-max….it would fairly put ALL parties in scotland on the backfoot…apart from the tories…AND you’d find their support would grow.

      Will it happen though? Doubtful, but I am beginning to wonder.

    213. Jane Paterson says:

      FEAR CAMPAIGN 2 It’s going to be bigger and scarier than anything we have seen so far. Remember how many of us complained. Watch it ramp up as they try to smear the SNP and anyone who has aspirations for a Free Scotland. Brace yourselves. We aint seen nothing yet.



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