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Lying to the death

Posted on May 28, 2019 by

The Daily Record today carries a piece by Scottish Labour MPs Ian Murray and Martin Whitfield (no, us either) bitterly attacking their leadership over the Euro election results.

The two men complain that Jeremy Corbyn and Richard Leonard won’t listen to them, and insist that the party must “heed the people” if it ever wants to wield power again.

So it’s a bit ironic that they won’t take their own advice.

Because the key passage of the column is this:

And that proves that Murray and Whitfield haven’t listened to a damn thing in the past five years. Because being in both the EU and the UK is NOT what “the majority of Scots want”. It’s not even close to a majority, and what’s more it’s not even the most popular combination of those two things.

(The claim is also demonstrably bollocks in other ways, as the Lib Dems and at least the Scottish Tories stand for those things too, but that’s by the by. As is the fact that that second paragraph openly admits that Scotland now has a binary choice between two nationalisms, and Labour apparently wants us to have the ugly xenophobic English/British one rather than the civic and inclusive Scottish variety.)

We know this because we’ve been polling on that question since 2015, and not once has being in both the EU and the UK topped the vote. Here’s the most recent:

Murray and Whitfield’s choice is the second most popular, with just three in 10 Scots opting for it when given all four possible combinations of EU and UK membership to choose from. The most preferred – as it has been every single time we’ve polled it – is independence in the EU.

This was 2017:

This was 2016, three months after the EU referendum:

And this was 2015:

Every single time, independence in the EU has beaten EU within the UK, although it’s nearly always been very close – the averages over the four polls are 32 vs 29, which in a head-to-head would ironically translate to a 55-45 win for independence.

But the option that Murray and Whitfield claim as the “majority” view has NEVER been supported by more than 31%, and has NEVER been the most popular choice, and they’re never going to get anywhere until they bite the bullet and face up to that fact.

The constitution is complicated. However much Labour might wish it otherwise, those who want to stay in the UK are also vastly more likely to want out of Europe than Yes supporters, and everybody knows that. (No voters are still majority Remain, but by a margin of just 19 points compared to a colossal 42 points for Yes voters.) Conflating support for the UK with support for the EU is simply a lie.

Now, we don’t expect Scottish Labour to suddenly become converts to the cause of independence. But when you’ve just scored 9% in a national election, the first step to winning back even an atom of public trust is to at least stop brazenly lying to people, and perhaps also to yourself.

For five years now it’s been obvious that Scotland faced a choice between two unions. The option to stay in both no longer exists. We on the Yes side have embraced that fact for a long time and we made our decision. Sooner or later, Scottish Labour will have to stop stamping its feet and screaming with its fingers in its ears and its eyes closed and do the same.

Because otherwise, when it finally opens them again there’ll be nothing there.

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    86 to “Lying to the death”

    1. Clootie says:

      Labour lies from both sides of the Labour feud.
      What a surprise!

    2. doug bryce says:

      We are almost at the point of no-return where Scotland can no longer be both in UK and EU.

      The real question is where does Ian Murray go then ?

    3. Dr Jim says:

      After a defeat of such magnitude isn’t it very odd that there has been no call for the *many faced man* to resign after leading the worst campaign Labour has ever had and no one mounting the usual leadership challenge to a man who has all the presence and skill of a tired and weatherbeaten old garden gnome

      The three UK parties in England are leaderless, because you can’t count Vince Cable as anything other than the beneficiary of the other two’s incompetence, but they all expect Scotland to do what it’s told, just because

      That’s extraordinary English self entitled arrogance smacking of birthright exceptionalism

    4. Terry says:

      Heard Ian Murray say the same on radio shortbread this morning. Obvious lie in another way as it’s also the Lib Dem’s position – staying in UK and Europe. Labour’s very existence is tiresome.

    5. starlaw says:

      By the time labour decides anything, the horse will be over the horizon. There will be no good coming to the UK when it leaves the EU but still they bumble on. Or do they think that Labour would fare better in the resulting poverty ahead.

    6. Dr Jim says:

      Neil Findlay resigns

      I wonder if he’s got his shoulder blade knife ready

    7. Welsh Sion says:

      Dr Jim @ 1.24 pm

      The three UK parties in England are leaderless, because you can’t count Vince Cable as anything other than the beneficiary of the other two’s incompetence, but they all expect Scotland to do what it’s told, just because.

      ________

      In fact, if you remember, Cable is going this summer (23 July) in any case – decided before May went with Swinson already installed as favourite to succeed him. Further, UKIP (who they? – Ed.) are also going to be having a leadership ‘battle’ as well.

      https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/vince-cable-resign-liberal-democrat-leader-leadership-election-who-next-a8929251.html

    8. Frank Gillougley says:

      Neil Findlay – And I had the wilful lying thug down as a ‘redoubler of efforts’ in the John Reid mould. I am disappointed – he was a continuous gift.

    9. mr thms says:

      I have been watching the new Sky drama Chernobyl on catch-up tv and can recommend it to those who have not seen it yet.

      Although, I can’t help thinking that a future UK government, led by a PM ‘for the many and not the few”, would be run just like this former Soviet Socialist Republic.

    10. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If someone asked James Kelly to ‘stand down’ he’d get terribly confused.

    11. Truth says:

      Isn’t that what the Lib Dems want as well? So he’s lying about them being the only party as well.

    12. Muscleguy says:

      Would the last sane people in the Labour party please turn the lights out and tiptoe out quietly and lock the loonies inside talking to unconnected cameras.

    13. Mac says:

      Scottish and English politics have simply drifted too far apart for any political party to straddle both countries… it’s really that simple

    14. Macart says:

      Neatly done Rev.

    15. Macart says:

      @ Ian B.

      Coffee on keyboard moment. 😀

    16. Legerwood says:

      Dr Jim says:
      28 May, 2019 at 1:34 pm
      Neil Findlay resigns

      I wonder if he’s got his shoulder blade knife ready””
      ………

      He has resigned from the front bench and any associated posts apparently and wont stand again in 2021.

    17. Proud Cybernat says:

      @Dr Jim
      “…a man who has all the presence and skill of a tired and weatherbeaten old garden gnome”

      My weatherbeaten garden gnome demands an apology for that.

    18. Bob Mack says:

      They should make a movie about all of this. Title?

      Dumb and dumber and Labour.

    19. Giving Goose says:

      I think people tend to be overly optimistic when looking at Ian Murray.

      You can certainly sense the frustration of former Labour voters, who have moved to Yes, who seem to be saying to Mr Murray, “Hey, when you coming over to Yes?”

      There appears to be an expectation that Murray is only a few days away from moving to a Yes position, but that is to completely misunderstand his world view.

      Instead of using a lot of text to explain Murray’s world view, it’s probably easiest to sketch a quick verbal picture to illustrate.

      Have you ever seen or viewed a picture of an Orange Lodge walk?
      See the guy in the orange sash wearing the bowler hat?
      Well that is Ian Murray.
      That’s all that needs to be said.

    20. stonefree says:

      I’ll would think Labour are lining up Joanna Baxter for Finlay’s job, who nicely give long notice over £100,000 worth……That’ll all end in tears
      As Alistair Campbell is ejected from Labour ,there is no truth that he said “I’ve been thrown out of better places than this”

    21. Ken500 says:

      Serves them right losers. Losers.

      Another one down. Another one gone. Another one hits the dust.

    22. galamcennalath says:

      The word ‘majority’ gets abused a lot these days. The Telegraph ran a headline last week saying that the Brexit Party was set to win a majority of seats. Clear bollocks with a PR election. They were likely to get the most, but never a majority. This was eventually changed in the headline.

      I suspect it’s use in that Daily Record article meant the same ie largest group. However as the Rev shows, even that’s not true. EU+UK isn’t even the most popular option.

      Majorities really only come about with a two way fight. Multi party and multi option scenarios are unlikely to give majorities.

      2017
      Indy EU 31%
      UK EU 30%
      UK only 22%
      Indy only 8%

      The second option is going to evaporate soon, and the fourth seems an improbable strategic Indy aim now.

      So, those 30% + 22% are going to need to rethink their priorities. Then it will be a choice if two and everyone will know it. Then a majority becomes possible,

      This all highlights that IndyRef2 can’t happen (no matter how impatient we all feel) until the choice is just two options. Until then, some Lab and LibDems will push a narrative that EU+UK is possible, and best.

    23. galamcennalath says:

      @me

      Meant 30% + 8%

      🙁

    24. Welsh Sion says:

      Re: Ian Murray

      You forgot the Union Jack suit, Giving Goose (@ 2.04 pm)

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/we-need-to-talk-about-ian/

    25. GrahamB says:

      Should we really bother about what Labour think or propose doing?
      They are in terminal decline and perfectly capable of destroying their remaining remnants all by themselves. Self-destruction seems to be the only thing they are semi-capable of doing.
      One more branch manager election should be enough to reduce them to a complete irrelevance below any critical mass from which they might recover.

    26. Artyhetty says:

      Might some Labour MSP’s defect to the SNP? Findlay must have a directorship lined up, or a seat at that Labour talking shop at Glasgow Uni.

      Re;Ken500@ These ‘losers’ take a nice big pension with them, they won’t be victims of UKgov’s disgusting universal credit that’s for sure. They don’t give a hoot about those who they have shafted either.

    27. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Evening Times poll.

      ‘Do you want a second Scottish independence referendum?’

      9,665 votes cast.

      63% Yes
      37% No

      17 hours left.

      (It was 56 % Yes a couple of hours ago)

      https://twitter.com/TheEveningTimes/status/1133264413593669633

    28. Cactus says:

      BREAKING! (and Exclusive to Wings)

      Secret footage revealed of prospective candidate for new Tory Prime Minister… aye give you… Roderick James Nugent “Rory” Stewart, politician

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGwZ88460iI

      “A toast to a toast!” 🙂

    29. tartanfever says:

      Maybe they’ll just copy Hilary Clinton’s Democrats, instead of taking it on the chin and admitting a huge self inflicted blunder, they’ll just blame it on Russian election interference.

      I’m sure their chums at the Integrity Initiative can get some appropriate headlines published via their favourite journalists.

    30. Patrick Roden says:

      Neil Fndlay saying he’s been thinking about resigning for the past six months!

      Daniel Johnson considering his position!

      Richard Leonard said to be ‘on the brink’

      Kez will be laughing her boobs aff!

    31. winifred mccartney says:

      Neil Findlay resigns but not until he has his full salary until the end of parliamentary term – such a principled man – he’s never heard the word and certainly never been used to describe him.

      The Henchman of nowhere who backed the wrong horse. Don’t worry labour will find him another sinecure just like Kez.

      Even in resigning he is a disgrace – a fair weather champagne socialist!

    32. Dave Hunter says:

      I wonder how many EU nationals were turned away from Polling Stations last week.

      Strikes me a bit like voter registartion difficulties they had in the US just before Trump.

      Were Brexit Party council employees making sure they couldn’t do it to enhance Farages chances of winning.

      Those opposed to independence are very well organised especially with social media and we have to be better or they will win again.

      Labour are led by a brexit leader who is running party as his own personnal fiefdom and has been using the Labour party to assist brexit but the tory infighting has prevented them taking advantage of them. I would appear that they are now in favour of another referendum.

      Most of us would forego independence until later if we can continue in the EU. We can sort out a velvet divorce with help of EU/UN at a later date. Sure beats being in UK and out of EU.

    33. Cactus says:

      Who’d have imagined ‘the division of Labour’ would become SO literal

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=row3qYD7jL4

      Some interesting keywords contained therein

    34. Terry callachan says:

      I’m puzzled why some Scottish independence supporters are still calling for another brexit referendum.
      3 yrs ago Scotland voted by a large margin to remain in the EU.
      These EU elections have shown that roughly two thirds of Scotland’s voters still want to remain in the EU.

      From that I conclude that people in Scotland do not need or want another vote on membership of the EU and yet there are still Scottish independence supporters calling for a second brexit referendum , why are they doing that ?

      Weegingerdug saying it today
      Nicola Sturgeon still saying it

    35. I posted a few minutes ago, and the @This Page Cannot be displayed’ popped up.
      I think that you are under attack, Stu.
      In synopsis, I posted that Murray was a spawn of Blair, a bloated ruddy faced remnant of the Blair Rich Project, and demonstrably lying, a sign of the Death Rattle of the Branch Office.
      Labour died with Clause 4 and hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraq men women children the elderly infirm and defenceless.
      Fuck them all, all the way down the M6 to their spiritual home.
      We ask no one’s permission to hold a Referendum.

    36. Famous15 says:

      O/t

      Oliver Mundell in his closing remarks on thr Children Bill says “It seems extremely odd to legislate to criminalise people for an action and then hope it will not happen”

      So it must be odd to him to criminalise any action and hope it will not happen.

      He is just odd.

    37. Patrick Roden says:

      Anyone wanting to see how savage Labours internal fighting is in Scotland, should go and have a look at Duncan Hothersalls twitter feed, lol.

      If you don’t do twitter, just go onto twitter from the link above then type Duncans name into the little box that says ‘search twitter’

      Best make sure you have some spare underwear handy though, because I’m on my third pair already, laughing so much at them all fighting like rats in a sack.

    38. schrodingers cat says:

      im enjoying watching labour disintegrating. the recriminations have only just started and even if corbyn changes tact and backs a peoples vote, i think labour have already shot their bolt. I think corbyn will prevaricate about the bush until he sees who is the new PM, at which point, the announcement of another ge will kill off all talk of a pv

      slab wont recover from this in time for the coming election, many of their voters simply wont bother to vote. If they do vote for eg, the libdems, this wont help in the old labour heartlands
      it will merely split the vote. I also think that many will also finally realise, as stu has pointed out in this article, that the only choice they really have is indy in the eu or brexit in the uk. the planets are aligning beautifully.

    39. bobajock says:

      Odd that, in the unionist press. The ones that provide false graphs, misleading stats and generally poor ‘journalism’.

    40. yesindyref2 says:

      I don’t normally join in with the “party politics” around Labour, but they really are a self-destructive total shambles, and will NOT be around in 2021 the way they’re going.

      They’ll be competing for the list vote with the Solidarity Party, Scottish Christian Party, RISE, Women’s Equality Party and Independents and getting NO seats.

    41. Dr Jim says:

      Alistair Campbells expulsion from the Labout party is probably more to do with his high profile in saying who he voted for or Kezia would’ve been sacked for voting Tory, she just never admitted it

      Apart from which Campbell stood next to Nicola Sturgeon and agreed with her, that’s a definite no no in the Labour party

      Or the bagpipe thing, Labour hate that

    42. mr thms says:

      Terry Callaghan @ 3:02 pm

      “I’m puzzled why some Scottish independence supporters are still calling for another brexit referendum.”

      Me too!

      But, then I remembered the McGuffin –

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGuffin

      “In fiction, a MacGuffin (sometimes McGuffin) is a plot device in the form of some goal, desired object, or other motivator that the protagonist pursues, often with little or no narrative explanation. The MacGuffin’s importance to the plot is not the object itself, but rather its effect on the characters and their motivations.

      The MacGuffin technique is common in films, especially thrillers. Usually, the MacGuffin is revealed in the first act, and thereafter declines in importance. It can reappear at the climax of the story but may actually be forgotten by the end of the story. Multiple MacGuffins are sometimes derisively identified as plot coupons.”

    43. Dr Jim says:

      Everything Nicola Sturgeon says she supports, Unionism is forced to do the opposite

      Can’t be seen to be agreeing with *Britains most dangerous woman* can they

    44. Petra says:

      Labour fighting like rats in a sack north of the border, south of the border and between north and south. High time that they woke up and realised that the only way forward for them now, in the north, is to support Independence. If not they’re finished in Scotland. In years to come they’ll just be a wee mention in our history books.

      ……….

      @ Patrick at 2:34pm ….”Kez will be laughing her boobs aff.”

      Not if they decide to create posts for all of the failed Labour politicians at the Adam Smith thingamy therapy Centre. In reality the retirement home for Labour rejects with plans in place to build a massive extension to accomodate them all.

    45. Mac says:

      Sir John Major, former Prime Minister
      THEN: ‘There will not be another referendum on Europe. This is it.’ – May 2016, before the referendum
      NOW: ‘The moral case for a second vote has never been more powerful’ – Evening Standard, October 2018

      Jeremy Corbyn, Labour leader and Islington North MP
      THEN: ‘This is a one-off vote… between staying in the EU or leaving completely’ – June 2017
      NOW: ‘We are committed to… supporting an amendment in favor of a public vote to prevent a damaging Tory Brexit being forced on the country.’ – February 2019

      Philip Hammond, Chancellor and Conservative MP for Runnymede and Weybridge
      THEN: ‘We are leaving the EU. Because we are leaving the EU, we leave the single market, and by the way, we are leaving the customs union’ – June 2017
      NOW: ‘A second referendum is now a perfectly credible proposition that deserves to be tested in Parliament’ – Peston Show, ITV

      Lord (Peter) Mandelson, former Cabinet minister and EU Commissioner
      THEN: ‘This is a once-and-for-all decision. We will not be taking a decision like this again in our lifetime. I say that with all the conviction and sincerity that I have’ – During Brexit referendum campaign
      NOW: ‘We have got to make sure everyone feels able to live with the result [by having a second referendum]’ – April 2019

      Hilary Benn, Labour MP for Leeds Central
      THEN: ‘You vote to Leave. We are out. We are going’ – Before the Brexit referendum in June 2016
      NOW: ‘It is now clear that… leaving the EU without an agreement would be a disaster. If it turns out that there is no alternative deal that can win a majority in the Commons, then… the only way we will resolve this is to go back to the people’ – December 17, 2018

      Anna Soubry, Independent Group MP for Broxtowe
      THEN: ‘We are leaving the EU and must now get a good deal… Many people voted Leave for genuine and respected reasons. We have to respect the result.’ – After referendum in June 2016
      NOW: ‘We have to plan for a People’s Vote. The current deal we have with the EU [i.e. remaining inside the EU] is the best deal’ – February 2019

      Sir Keir Starmer, Labour MP for Holborn and St Pancras
      THEN: ‘We all have to accept and respect the referendum outcome. I campaigned to stay in the EU. I would have expected the result to be honoured if we had won it’ – After the 2016 referendum
      NOW: ‘A public vote ought to be between the option of a credible Leave deal and Remain’ – March 2019

      Chuka Umunna, Independent Group MP for Streatham
      THEN: ‘We will Leave if Leave wins even by one vote’ – on the eve of the 2016 referendum
      NOW: ‘A People’s Vote is our final chance to get it right for generations to come’ – October 2018

      Sir Vince Cable, leader of the Liberal Democrat party and MP for Twickenham
      THEN: ‘The public have voted and it’s seriously disrespectful and politically utterly counter-productive to say: ‘Sorry guys, you’ve got it wrong. We are going to try again’ – After the 2016 Brexit vote
      NOW: ‘We are a Remain country now with 60 per cent wanting to stop the Brexit mess’ – People’s Vote rally, March 2019

      Sarah Wollaston, Independent Group MP for Totnes
      THEN: ‘We must accept the [Brexit] result.’ She added: ‘A second referendum… is a direct incentive for us to get the worst possible deal. We should not be going back and saying we don’t accept the result’ – During 2017 election
      NOW: ‘I don’t think we have anything to fear from a second referendum now. It’s not about blocking Brexit; it’s about saying to people: I think you have the right to give informed consent’ – August 20, 2018

      Heidi Allen, Independent Group MP for South Cambridgeshire
      THEN: ‘We must respect the democratic outcome of the referendum and work positively together to ensure we make Brexit a success’ – 2017 election
      NOW: ‘There is no alternative. We need to go back to the public to decide what they want us to do next. The referendum should include the option of staying in the EU under existing terms’ – September, 2018

      Dominic Grieve, Conservative MP for Beaconsfield
      THEN: ‘What is clear to me is that the decision of electorate in the referendum must be respected and I should support a reasoned process to give effect to it,’ – 2017 election literature
      NOW: ‘I believe that a further public consultation through a referendum offers the best way forward’ – January 2019

      https://themoderatevoice.com/in-the-mother-of-parliaments-democracy-dies/

    46. Frank Gillougley says:

      mr. thms 3.39.

      I’ve always proceeded on the basis of nothing is what it appears to be, right?

      My simple understanding (which could well be wrong, I know) of the SNP strategy re Brexit/Independence is that in supporting a second Brexit Referendum (which just ain’t gonna ever happen) the SNP are really reaching out and appealing to the reasonableness of former no remainers, in order to get THEIR VOTES for the forthcoming indyref2. After all, VOTES are what are needed.

      This strategy of creating a broad appeal to me appears to be bearing fruit. By the way, when the ‘narrative’ of ‘independence’ (and indeed the word itself, or separation et al) has been poisoned by the MSM then why go there and play into their prepared negativity in what they’ll perceive as a re-run of 2014.

      As I’ve read on here, the language/word of ‘independence’ is also moot when seen in the context of European nation states within the interdependent EU and the wider world at large.

      The presentation of the image of Scotland ‘reclaiming its former nation status’ should probably be explored further, when the campaign for independence gets underway in the media. It’s too clunky, I know but language is just so important.

      Hopefully, somebody will keep me right. 🙂

    47. Robert Peffers says:

      @Frank Gillougley says: 28 May, 2019 at 4:09 pm:

      ” … I know but language is just so important.
      Hopefully, somebody will keep me right. ?”

      I’ve been telling it long enough, Frank.

      The Kingdom of Scotland isn’t leaving the United Kingdom.
      The Kingdom of Scotland is ending the United Kingdom.

      In a two partner kingdom, with each partner being equally sovereign, Scotland will be dissolving the United Kingdom and what remains as the Status Quo Ante, is the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England and the United Kingdom ceases to exist. Westminster is not the Kingdom of England Parliament. There has been no legally elected parliament of England since 30 April 1707.

    48. I was just reminded ‘Lord’ Mandelson. Mercy me.

    49. robertknight says:

      Frank@4:09

      Inclined to agree.

      The SNP must be seen to have exhausted any and every opportunity to avoid calling IndyRef2 before actually doing so.

      In this way they can be seen to claim moral authority and not be portrayed by Mooth Davidson and the MSM as opportunists – not that they’ll waste any time in doing so irrespective.

      If IndyRef2 is blocked by legal chicanery a GE could then be called with a single issue on the SNP manifesto…

      Over 50% of seats/votes and that’s it…job done!

    50. Scott says:

      O/T.
      P&O seeks £33m in damages over Brexit ferry settlement

      Another blunder from Grayling now that May has gone will he get the boot.
      Labour really are in meltdown now.

    51. jfngw says:

      Cometh the hour, cometh the moron. Guess who I’m thinking will be the next Labour branch manager.

    52. mr thms says:

      Hi Frank,

      My phone battery is going flat so I need to hurry..

      You said

      “I’ve always proceeded on the basis of nothing is what it appears to be, right?”

      I agree with you.

      One of the FM’s advisors is Lord Kerr who wrote Article 50 in 2003/04 for the unratified Treaty Establishing a Constitution for Europe.

      It found its way into the Treaty of Lisbon amending the Treaty on European Union and the Treaty establishing the European Community.

      I came across this recently..

      https://eutopialaw.com/2012/12/12/scotland-independence-and-the-eu-the-barroso-intervention/

      And it seems to confirm what I have thought for awhile the outcome of the Scottish referendum and the EU referendum are linked.

      For Scotland to become independent and a member of the EU the UK would need to leave.

    53. Marie Clark says:

      It would appear that things are not ticketyboo with SLAB at the moment.

      Neil Finlay resigns, going to the back benches before leaving at next election. Now Daniel Johnson has also resigned from the shadow cabinet.

      Rev’s twitter reporting from Kieran Andrews ” SLAB MSP’s to hold second “emergency” group meeting at 5.30 today. Sources say they are unhappy at what they heard from the leadership at lunchtime.”

      Do you think that Richard Who’s jaiket is oan a shoogly peg by ony chance.

    54. geeo says:

      Message to a labour supporting family member.

      Try this:

      New tory leader (winner of anti EU Dutch Auction) will simply allow the 31st Oct deadline to pass and state we are out by default, probably blaming treeza and the EU.

      In that one action, the new leader has chopped the legs from under farage, in regards to him contesting the next GE with a hope of winning.

      With a No deal departure under his/her belt, the new hardcore tory leader could realistically then walk any immediate GE where they will deselect EVERY remain minded Tory MP replacing them with hard brexiters.

      With labour completely directionless, an election called at that point would produce a tory majority, as all those tories who deserted the party last week for farages party, shall return in their near entirety to sweep the party to power.

      In that election, millions of remain voters, may decide to vote lib dem rather than labour, as the labour position will be just as unclear as now.

      So, in the near future, labour could no longer be a party of any note.

      Think it cannot happen in England ?

      Look to Scotland in 2010: Labour won 41 MP’s from 59 and had unbroken electoral success here since around 1955 and nearly 80 years of control over most Scottish councils.

      In 2015, they were eviscerated and have lost EVERY election since, and humiliatingly have been reduced to 3rd party in recent elections at ALL and EVERY level of Scottish politics.

      One GE did that.

      The ONLY hope for labour to recover here, is for to back Scottish independence and split from the uk labour party.

      The funniest bit of this ?

      They will not do it, for fear of losing more support, despite AT LEAST 30% of labour supporters in Scotland voting YES in 2014 and SNP ever since, to try win future independence.

      An indy supporting REAL Scottish labour party would win almost all those supporters back post indy.

      The SNP would almost certainly split into other parties, as they are a pretty broad spectrum politically, so a resurgent Scottish labour party could have real influence in an indy Scotland within a fairly short timescale, once they get the public trust back.

      And if Scottish labour were able to claim their support for indy tipped the scales to provide independence, that would be quite the status symbol to be used post indy.

      Of course, Labour in Scotland lack the ambition and vision for that.

      Hating the SNP and keeping Scots down means much more to them.

      Great news then, that independence means EVERY (as currently constituted) unionist party and every politician they have, will no longer be legally allowed to operate in an indy Scotland as they will belong to political parties of a foreign country.

      In Scotland, for unionist parties, it really is change or die, politically, as soon as that Treaty of Union is dissolved.

      Which unionist party today, has the courage and vision to look to tomorrow in Scotland ?

      Those who show these qualities, survive a Yes vote, the rest do not.

      With the new referendum bill, it will soon be crunch time again.

    55. Foonurt says:

      Burl, burl, burl, burl, burl……. .

      The ghost ah Keir Herdy, Hardly, Hurdie, Hardy.

    56. Allan Watson says:

      Labour imploding. Neil Finlay was your old fashioned Labour dinosaur. Wedded to the westminster Labour doctrine and slavishly loyal to the leader.

      Incapable of individual thought or expression. Forgetting that the branch office is there purportedly to represent Scotland not westminster. But I suppose if labour london and their Union backers are paying for the upkeep of your existence you toe the party line. Or else.

      Seems the Labour branch office justice spokesman is considering his position and Leanard under pressure likewise.

      You have to wonder what its going to take for the Scottish branch offices to wake up and smell the coffee. The Euro elections have humbled them, their supporters have spoken by voting elsewhere.

      The message is clear but are they prepared to bite the bullet and go down the Independence road.

      Interesting times ahead

    57. Hamish100 says:

      Obviously the two amigos believe the labour parties english brit nationalism with its apparent anti semetic anti immigration as well as Anti Scots view od the world is a much nicer nationalism.

    58. Col says:

      Maybe the SNP should when referring to Scottish independence always add English independence to the sentence also. So Nicola and other indy campaigners might just plant a little seed which could grow fairly quickly under the present circumstances down south. Maybe the English aren’t finished with regaining control of their country. Imagine BBC audience’s with people bringing it up time and time again.

    59. Effijy says:

      Only Scottish Labour can lie to you pretending to be Labour.

      Straight from the skint no members North Accounting Unit from Westminster.

    60. Maria F says:

      robertknight says:
      28 May, 2019 at 4:30 pm

      “Inclined to agree.
      The SNP must be seen to have exhausted any and every opportunity to avoid calling IndyRef2 before actually doing so”

      I happen to think the SNP position is much more strategic and crafty than that. I did not see it at the beginning, but I see it now. I have the feeling the SNP knew from day 1 that nor the tories nor Labour had any intention whatsoever of re-running this EU referendum and the SNP are simply teasing them hard and forcing them to make a public decision on the matter. It is forcing them to come off the fence. Look at the vacuous, undefined, confusing strategy of Labour – this is deliberate because whatever decision they make they will lose voters.
      Should the SNP not have been hammering them constantly with this peoples’ vote and they would still be avoiding the issue as they avoided that of revoking A50 until basically the SNP gave them no choice. Now we know neither labour nor tories have any intention in revoking A50. I believe it was the persistance of the SNP who also force them to take off the mask and reveal that neither labour nor tories are that fuss about a no deal brexit. Labour could have stopped a no deal on its tracks by supporting Joanna Cherry’s motion against no deal brexit. But purposely they did not to leave the door open for no deal brexit.

      The SNP is being very effective in forcing them to make a decision and making them look as incredibly deceiving towards the remainers in England. I happen to think that the flow from labour to libdems in yesterday’s result was in part due to the SNP’s strategy of forcing them to the wall on the difficult decisions (no deal, people’s vote, revoking A50), but I may be wrong.

      I would not be surprised if the possibility of a second EU ref will soon be trashed, again, for real in Parliament and that is why the vague labourites are now coming out of the woodwork, particularly in Scotland after their spectacular hammering “supporting” it. But Tories and Labour simply do not want it, I think this is crystal clear.

      I don’t think the SNP believed for a second either that England had actually changed in sufficient numbers its views with regards to brexit and the results yesterday prove them right.

      Frankly, I cannot see how the taxdodgers and the powers that be pushing brexit will ever allow any party to shred to pieces the perfect excuse they have bought with dark money, PSYOPS and by breaking electoral law to cut us off from EU regulations and the ECJ – a pro-brexit vote, even if it is only in England and Wales. They will never risk losing that.

      I am of the opinion that the reason why Farage and his new political construct managed to make it to the EU elections just in the nick of time and with dubious funding (where on earth did this man got all that cash to support so many candidates so quickly?) is because those powers that be wanted to frighten the bejesus out of moderate MPs both in labour and tories that are still fighting against brexit and against no deal. The result yesterday will help to “focus minds”. The lesson from yesterday’s results is that many labour and more importantly tories stand to lose their seats if they do not toe the line and complete brexit.

      There is some sort of deja vu with the previous EU elections. The Farage machine was also deployed at that time by the powers that be to “focus minds” and force the EU ref. Look at the effect: half of the tory party publicly supported Brexit. Because the tories toed the line at that time like good minions, the Farage machine kinda deflated itself on the following GE.

      We are before a rather similar scenario here. I read somewhere that considering FPTP, a similar result to the one yesterday in a GE and the SNP would get 56 seats and Farage would take most tory and labour seats.

      Therefore I do not think at this point either another EU ref or a GE will take place – I think Labour is bluffing asking for a GE to distract from the fact that the last thing it wants is one. I think A GE will only take place AFTER brexit, when Labour and Tories know that the powers that be (wherever those are) cannot longer deploy their favourite weapon Farage again.

    61. HandandShrimp says:

      I have no idea what Labour’s position on Brexit actually is. It is encouraging that Labour MSPs are chucking it because they are equally baffled. It means it isn’t just me.

    62. Footsoldier says:

      BBC to televise Tory leader debates. What a farce – put them on Love Island too.

    63. Footsoldier says:

      The rage from Scotland in Union at SNP success is a joy to behold. In today’s Scottish Daily Mail the unified anguish of Jill Stephenson, Martin Redfern and Keith Howell is plain for all to see – still writing about separatism, divisiveness and general sour grapes that others do not share their narrow, parochial view of the world. Things are so bad for them that the same letters appear in more than one newspaper.

      This is now working for us as they have run out of new things to say and it is all very hackneyed and tired and heaven forbid they say anything positive about – well anything.

    64. Legerwood says:

      Footsoldier says:
      28 May, 2019 at 5:59 pm
      BBC to televise Tory leader debates. What a farce – put them on Love Island too.””
      …………..

      They would need a bigger Island.

      Another two Tory MPs have thrown their hats in the ring. I have never heard of them and so their names did not stick in my memory.

    65. I note that Davidson has disappeared from the columns of the Dead Tree Scrolls and the Broadcast Brit Nat Propaganda media.
      May resigned; her handmaidens will go in to the tomb with her.
      Boris will enjoy telling Davidson to fuck off out of his battle ‘bus and suffer the humiliation of the long walk home from the party.
      She is toast, and is discredited along with May in being part of the most feckless team ever to bumble through the Halls of Westminster.
      She won’t be snapped greedily by pre-notified Herald and Hootsman Britland snappers entering No 10, waving cheerily to the gathered throng of lap dog journos and broadcasters.
      Likewise, the Northern British Baker’s Dozen Blue Tory Hangers On will be consigned to a basic pay, as their PPS wage top ups are taken away from them, and Boris appoints his own henchmen to do the heavy lifting.
      Davidson should of course follow Big T into the Horrid History annals, but she won’t, until she gets the call from London.
      ‘Visiting professor’ at Edinburgh Uni beckons?
      Her legacy? I made a fortune for doing nothing to help my fellow Scots.
      Mundell will be prising his May portrait from the frame in his office and replacing it with his old Maggie snap.

    66. Welsh Sion says:

      Handandshrimp @ 5.56pm

      I have no idea what Labour’s position on Brexit actually is. It is encouraging that Labour MSPs are chucking it because they are equally baffled. It means it isn’t just me.

      ______

      Seconded. Just look at the comments by ‘my’ First Minister, Mark Drakeford. He’s now cynically for a 2nd EU Referendum – spooked by ‘Welsh’ Labour’s historic defeat to BP and Plaid Cymru in last Thursday’s poll.

      But a Labour Leader advocating a 2nd referendum … Has this been cleared with Leonard and Corbyn?

    67. ronnie anderson says:

      SLAB.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGJ_IyFwieY

      Soon wont be anyone left to fight any elections lol.

    68. Maria F says:

      HandandShrimp says:
      28 May, 2019 at 5:56 pm
      “I have no idea what Labour’s position on Brexit actually is”

      I however think their position is crystal clear:
      the same as the tories, they are after a no deal brexit. The motivation behind it may be poles apart as what sort of negotiations to conduct, but the objective is, in my view, the same. It is clear they have been supporting each other since June 2016.

      This would have never happen with a pro-EU leader like Ed Miliband, that is why he had to go. In the same way that Trump could have only win against somebody as much baggage as Hillary Clinton, Brexit can only happen with somebody like Corbyn fronting labour.

      Who was responsible for Corbyn even entering the leadership race in 2015? This man never before showed ambitions of becoming leader and he was quite happy in the backbenches following his own principles and defying the whip. Who changed his mind?

    69. mike cassidy says:

      Always interesting to see what the other side is thinking.

      Especially btl

      There needs to be a completely new TV station which actually reflects what the people of Britain think, particularly on issues of the EU, immigration, Islam, political correctness and all that horrible smelly baggage the BBC constantly hauls around with it.

      http://archive.is/1zMlD

    70. robin says:

      now there are a lot of weaselly politicians who over the years I have loathed with some venom, not by any means all labour, but also to be honest quite a few of them …you know the ones, curran, brown etc etc
      however, if there looks like a brexiteer becomes PM and somehow manages to enable hard Brexit then that just might be the catalyst which makes the north british branch office become a Scottish Labour for independence….might happen…maybe…but we should shake the hand of all converts regardless of how grudging on both sides

    71. Robert Peffers says:

      @robertknight says:
      28 May, 2019 at 4:30 pm:

      … If IndyRef2 is blocked by legal chicanery a GE could then be called with a single issue on the SNP manifesto”

      Don’t know if you have seen the analysis of the way the indyref 2 bill will be followed through but it looks like it is fairly stone wall solid. Westminster cannot stop it being drawn up and processed by Holyrood and presented to the Queen for the royal signature. If the Queen signs it the bill is law. Only at the signing stage can Westminster stop it and only then to refer it to the Westminster Supreme Court.

      There to Westminster has a big problem because the Supreme Court has already acknowledged The Scottish Claim of Right, (that is that under independent Scots law the people, not the crown,are sovereign under Scots law. So the Supreme Court cannot very well now change their ruling.

      However, if they were to try there is legal precedent already established for such an event to be appealed to the international court who already upheld Scottish legal sovereignty. It looks fireproof but we all know what law and lawyers are like.

      It would then be the time to have a non-section 30 referendum and hope to win it. Then just tell Westminster that as at least two Westminster cabinet ministers have said in the chamber, (and thus been recorded by Hansard), That any international treaty can be ended by either signatory if they choose. Mind you they meant the EU/UK treaty but the point applies to any international treaty.

      And another thing, the projected date by Nicola is not a firm date and there have been emergency bills rushed through Holyrood in very short order before now.

    72. galamcennalath says:

      What is it Labour in Scotland want? We can only assume it’s turn back the clock to that time not so long ago when Scotland was their fiefdom. Scotland has moved on. Half of Scotland wants Indy, two thirds wants to stay in the EU … Labour oppose both. Heaven knows what fantasy world they inhabit … here and in London HQ.

      The Tories have a different set of fantasies … Jean-Claude Juncker has made it clear to Tory leadership hopefuls that they will NOT be able to renegotiate the Brexit withdrawal agreement. No surprises there.

      However, how many Tory leadership hopefuls will simply go ahead and pretend they alone can persuade the EU to reopen negotiations? How much of the MSM will let this go unchallenged? And how many gullible party members will believe it?

      We are probably in for at least a FURTHER couple of months of fantasy politics from all Britnats.

    73. Joe says:

      @Mac

      Well pointed out. The thing about the EU is that any time a referendum goes against them there will always be another. Funnily enough the referendums only stop when the EU wins.

      The thing I dont understand is this: if the result of the 1st referendum is not respected (as we would have demanded if we had won the Scottish Independence referendum) why should anyone accept the result of the 2nd?

      The argument is (disgustingly): people didnt know what they were voting for.

      What pro EU Scottish Nationalists need to remember is that they will be given the same treatment for your own victory in a referendum as the people who voted for Brexit. Can you imagine being told that ‘you didn’t know what you voted for, so you will have to vote again.’?

      If this is not handled well then the outcome will be worse than any hard Brexit could ever be – we will have undermined the last trust in the political system and with that comes all the chaos we have avoided by maintaining some sort of democracy til now.

      Why would we expect Brexit voters to accept the result that if it is ‘Remain’ in a 2nd referendum? One would have to have the mind of a child to expect such.

      And if another Brexit referendum goes to Brexit again…what then? There would be no firmer mandate for complete exit of the EU. It would have to be accepted or there would be utter chaos.

    74. schrodingers cat says:

      i do respect the result if the eu ref, scotland voted 62% remain

      as for westminster, i couldnt care less what they do…….none of my business

    75. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      One rule South of the Border:

      “Alastair Campbell has defended his decision to vote for the Lib Dems in the European elections after he was expelled from the Labour Party.”

      http://archive.is/mvBS5

      Another North of the Border:

      “The Tories are better placed to defeat the SNP in some areas of Scotland according Kezia Dugdale. The Scottish Labour leader made the extraordinary claim during a live TV interview.”

      https://indyref2.scot/tories-better-placed-to-defeat-snp-says-dugdale

      Obviously depends on which Union you are defending!!

      Labour Hypocrisy continues.

    76. Robert Peffers says:

      @mr thms says:28 May, 2019 at 4:45 pm:

      ” … And it seems to confirm what I have thought for awhile the outcome of the Scottish referendum and the EU referendum are linked.
      For Scotland to become independent and a member of the EU the UK would need to leave.”

      Aye Barrosso was indeed a lawyer – but he was also a chancer and he did not, perhaps, choose to consider all the facts. But, as lawyers do, only the ones he chose to meet his own agenda.

      I read this stuff up quite a while back and among the learned implications was that as the. “United Kingdom”, is neither the Kingdom of Scotland nor the Kingdom of England and both kingdoms are equally sovereign then the actual membership belongs to both kingdoms equally. Thus if the United Kingdom splits up there is no way to choose which of both independent kingdoms owns the EU membership. Note that Westminster is NOT the legal parliament of England for no such parliament exists.

      Thus the EU only needs to say that as both UK member kingdoms are equally entitled and one wants out and the other wants in they can both have what they want and Scotland remains as the legacy member state.

      To put that in a far simpler way the title United Kingdom does not describe a unitary state but a bipartite union. It is, and always has been, only Westminster propaganda that has wrongly portrayed the UK as a country. The very title, “United Kingdom”, gives the lie to that as it describes a bipartite kingdom and countries need not be kingdoms nor kingdoms countries.

      Barrosso told a lot of lies including the one where he claimed to speak for Spain and that Spain would veto any Scottish application to join the EU. The trouble with that was that Barrosso was Portuguese, not Spanish, and the Spanish Prime Minister said Spain would not veto a Scottish application.

      Of course the United Kingdom press and broadcasters did not mention the second part of that but only that Barrosso spoke for Spain.

    77. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Unless anyone remembers Dugfail being suspended for encouraging Scottish voters to vote Tory in 2017??

      No?

      Me neither…

    78. Maria F says:

      Joe says:
      28 May, 2019 at 6:39 pm

      “Funnily enough the referendums only stop when the EU wins”

      It looks to me you got it the other way round. Refs appear to stop when the Uk powers that be get the result they want. And if they don’t they will deploy Farage and Yaxley Lennon as a threat.

      “if the result of the 1st referendum is not respected (as we would have demanded if we had won the Scottish Independence referendum) why should anyone accept the result of the 2nd?”

      In our case it will be the reaffirmation that the English establishment will never respect Scotland’s democratic will no matter how many goes at “UK wide” referendums we have.

      On the other hand, just in the way that yesterday’s results helped to refresh our minds, such a referendum will highlight the impossible gap in the political trajectories that the kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland are following. Looking at yesterday’s map, it is clear that England and Scotland are diametrically opposed politically – how can you ever govern such a union with a single party? You cannot unless you massively disadvantage and disregard one of the parties.

      “The argument is (disgustingly): people didnt know what they were voting for”

      Actually no. You are completely wrong. In the case of indyref the argument is that one party (The English establishment and its 3 political arms) unilaterally destroyed without our consent the only status quo the sovereign people of Scotland gave their consent for the union to continue on. What was giving legitimacy to our 2014 vote was the status quo that gave it a framework. You take that framework away without the consent of Scotland and you are taking away the legitimacy of our democratic vote in 2014. That is what the English establishment has done and by doing so proving to us that they refuse to accept what we actually voted for in 2014.

      “What pro EU Scottish Nationalists need to remember…”

      Which ones? The Yes nationalists that are seeking a better future for their children and grandchildren in a free Scotland where the Scottish people takes control of Scotland’s direction of travel, or rather the British nationalists that insist in force over Scotland the outdated colonialist view that Scotland cannot manage its own precious assets and generous resources so England MPs have to do that for it?

      “they will be given the same treatment for your own victory in a referendum as the people who voted for Brexit”

      Here we go again. Are you a friend of Blair? Wasn’t Blair the one that in a senior unintelligent moment attempted to associate Yes supporters to the brextremists who are attempting to escape EU tax avoidance law?

      “Can you imagine being told that ‘you didn’t know what you voted for, so you will have to vote again.’?”

      No, actually, I cannot. The idea never even crossed my mind once. I have however pictured many times the idea of being imperative to have another indyref because the framework that gave legitimacy to our vote in 2014 was taken away from us without our consent.

      “If this is not handled well then the outcome will be worse than any hard Brexit could ever be”

      I doubt it.

      “we will have undermined the last trust in the political system and with that comes all the chaos we have avoided by maintaining some sort of democracy til now”

      The moment one of the 2 “equal partners” in an international union forces its will over the other and self-appoints itself as an absolute ruler in violation of the other partner’s law and the treaty that seals that gives legitimacy to that partnership so it can steal from the other partner control of its most valuable assets and can force it to go where it explicitly does not want to go, you cannot longer talk about a democracy. It is a dictatorship.

      “Why would we expect Brexit voters to accept the result that if it is ‘Remain’ in a 2nd referendum?”

      Why would Brexit voters expect Scotland, who overwhelmingly voted AGAINST brexit and repeated its democratic will with the results of yesterday, to accept England’s result? As you say ” One would have to have the mind of a child to expect such”.

      “And if another Brexit referendum goes to Brexit again…what then?”

      If Scotland votes one way and England the opposite, then it is the reaffirmation that Scotland and England are not longer governable under the same political principles. It is an indication that this union has come to an end.

      “There would be no firmer mandate for complete exit of the EU”

      For the Kingdom of England? Absolutely. There would be no firmer mandate for complete remaining of Scotland in the EU. The real question here is will England MPs ever grow the balls to have a referendum in England in Wales to let them choose if they rather save the UK by remaining in the EU or they rather dissolve the UK to leave the EU?

      “It would have to be accepted or there would be utter chaos”

      You better tell that to the England MPs. Those are the ones who appear to have been refusing to accept Scotland’s expressed democratic will since 1979.

    79. geeo says:

      RP@ 6.32pm said:

      And another thing, the projected date by Nicola is not a firm date and there have been emergency bills rushed through Holyrood in very short order before now.
      ………..

      Exactly, as I (and many others) have often said, when things move, they will move quickly.

    80. Steph says:

      All they’re going by is a result from a referendum from 5 years ago? It’s pathetic. Totally ignoring the fact people can and are allowed to change their minds about indy.

      They’re making out that people’s minds are static and unchanging. But of course it’s call part of the act. Pretending they don’t know (ignore) that people have changed their minds considering the drastic change in circumstances.

      S/Labour dug their own grave and then hopped right in it.

      Tories are heading down the same road, one foot in the grave and bawface Ruth is leading the pack of them like the pied piper, supported by the utter chaos with London Tories.

      Scotland is ready for indy and we should probably show some slight gratitude for the unintentional helping hand from the red Tories as well as the blue ones.

      C’moan, Scotland! We can do this!

    81. yesindyref2 says:

      https://www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/Bills/107725.aspx

      The Parliament has agreed to treat this Bill as an Emergency Bill and has set dates for Stages 1, 2 and 3.

      This Scottish Government Bill was introduced by the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills, John Swinney MSP, on 27 February 2018. The Bill passed Stage 3 on 21 March 2018.“.

      Less than 4 weeks, and then there’s 4 weeks for it to be challenged before going for Royal Assent.

      No S30 required.

      Asked how she could extract a Section 30 order from a UK government with little to gain from doing so, Ms Sturgeon was unable to provide an answer.

      Poor Tom, he’s a real Clingon. The word is “declined”.

    82. yesindyref2 says:

      I like to mess around, play with Unionists’ minds. In that respect I’m only trotting after Sturgeon and half the SNP.

      But in all seriousness, can you see the utter humiliation of the UK PM and the UK’s Government and Parliament, if it smugly refuses to “grant” its precious Section 30, and Indy Ref 2 goes ahead anyway, maybe after an unsuccessful referral to the UKSC by Keen again of the forthcoming Referendum Bill? What a GIRFUY that would be. Way better than having an S30. And after all the shit we put up with, we deserve it.

      The good people of the rUK would also piss themselves laughing. They have no regard for their Government or main Opposition party.

    83. geeo says:

      Thing is, if there is no S.30 referendum, does that not mean that under the UN Charters on self determination, that WM cannot interfere in our indyref ?

    84. Joe says:

      Maria F

      My comment was about the general undermining of the democratic franchise in the EU, the UK and in Scotland. But thanks anyway…

    85. Gary says:

      They must be looking at those polls on the Tory website.

      I truly believe that is the true, and only, purpose of the said ‘poll’ ie politicians being able to say there is a ‘majority’ in favour of dependence and being able to point to ‘figures’ to back it up. Plausible deniability in that they can claim they believed to poll was accurate – if any journalist actually ‘did their job’ and pulled them up on spouting pure mince (they’ve no need to worry, that will NEVER happen)

      If pulled up and caught out they can simply, and very quietly, retract the statement a couple of weeks later – as politicians like to do…



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