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Wings Over Scotland

Little red dots #2

Posted on April 02, 2019 by

Billions of years from now, when the Sun finally dies and expands to swallow and burn up the Earth in a final cataclysmic explosion, the very last thing to turn to dust and atoms will be Scottish Labour’s brass neck.

Coming from The Eternal Abstainers themselves that’s already quite a breathtakingly hypocritical claim, but if you look at last night’s results closely it gets a lot worse.

There were four votes in the Commons from 8pm.

Ken Clarke’s “customs union but no single market”, to which Murray referred and on which the SNP abstained because it would have resulted in a disastrous Brexit with no single market and no freedom of movement, lost by just three votes:

It failed because 10 Labour MPs voted against it. Had they not done so, it would have passed by a margin of seven (had they abstained) or 17 (had they backed it). The vote would also have passed if it hadn’t been opposed by the 11 mostly-ex-Labour MPs of The Independent Group.

Of course, the failure of the Clarke plan wasn’t in itself such a terrible thing, for the reasons noted above. But there was a far superior version of it available, in the shape of the “Common Market 2.0” plan put forward by (now former) Tory MP Nick Boles, which would have included those two key aspects and which was officially backed by both Labour and the SNP as well as 33 Tories.

It represented basically the softest and least damaging Brexit possible, but it failed because of the votes of 25 Labour MPs who opposed it. As with the Clarke proposal, had they even just abstained the vote would have been won by a margin of four.

(This time the Independent Group MPs would have had to actively vote for the motion in order for it to pass by a single vote – had they just abstained it would have still lost by 10, so this one is solely on Labour.)

The Kyle-Wilson suggestion of a confirmatory referendum – effectively the so-called “People’s Vote” – was also officially backed by Labour and the SNP, as well as The Independent Group, the Lib Dems, Plaid Cymru, the Greens and 15 rebel Tories.

But it was defeated because 24 Labour MPs voted against it. Once again, even abstentions would have seen the vote pass by 12.

And finally, the SNP’s emergency-parachute option, whereby failure to agree a deal by the April 12 deadline would result in Article 50 being revoked rather than no-deal Brexit, lost because Labour whipped their MPs to abstain on it, although a brave 121 of them rebelled and backed the proposal anyway.

If Labour had whipped to support the plan, it would have garnered another 123 votes and passed by a majority of 22 even despite 18 Labour MPs voting against it.

(Cherry’s proposal, incidentally, is the ONLY way to actually guarantee that no-deal is “taken off the table” – something Parliament has repeatedly voted for and which Labour officially insists must happen, but which the party effectively blocked last night by whipping for abstention.)

In short, then, every single vote last night aimed at breaking the deadlock and avoiding a hard or no-deal Brexit was defeated by Labour MPs.

At the very least, you might hope the party would have the decency to maintain an embarrassed silence. But blaming the SNP for Labour’s failings is in Labour’s DNA. So if a no-deal happens in 10 days’ time, as seems increasingly inevitable, prepare yourself for an onslaught.

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    1. 02 04 19 10:56

      Little red dots #2 | speymouth

    127 to “Little red dots #2”

    1. Famous15 says:

      Fanny by Gaslight.

    2. inkypic says:

      I can’t believe I actually believed in Labour all those years ago. I really did!

    3. Gary45% says:

      “SNP BAAAD”
      Its all they have.

    4. Proud Cybernat says:

      Bad, Bad SNP. Very Bad SNP. SNPBAD. Very Bad SNP indeed. How BAd can SNP be Bad? Bad, Bad, Bad SNP.

    5. heraldnomore says:

      and guess what the media message will be…

    6. WG Saraband says:

      Using Joana Cherry’s words after the first round of indicative voting:

      Fucking Labour.

    7. Frank Waring says:

      We are now going down into the abyss. There is one outcome the EU will not allow — even if avoiding it requires a no-deal Brexit — and that is that the EU should be drawn any further into the UK’s sucking swamp. I expect that at the April 10th meeting, the EU will conclude, sorrowfully, that the UK will leave the EU on the 12th. But that the EU, of course, will stand ready to open negotiations with the UK as a 3rd country — just as soon as the UK is represented by a responsible and reliable negotiating partner.

    8. Capella says:

      One day at a time, sweet Jesus. One day at a time. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. etc etc etc…

      Today’s evil is a cabinet meeting at which the air will be Tory blue.

      But Labour lies and mendacity are perennial.

    9. ross says:

      How is simply saying “no deal off the table” the only way to stop no deal?

      It’s not in their gift. You have to come up with an alternative.

      I like this blog but recently its taking slants which are not credible.

      I agree with Ian Murray on this occasion.

    10. Thepnr says:


      I think you might like to read the article again before you get hammers.

    11. Iain says:

      ‘Famous15 says:
      2 April, 2019 at 10:27 am

      Fanny by Gaslight.’

      Or in Murray’s case, pisspoor gaslighting by a fanny.

    12. Proud Cybernat says:

      Suspect the Cabinet meeting today will be to discuss whether (or not) to go for a GE to break Brexit paralysis and, if agreed, to then ask EU for extension in order for GE to go ahead (probably on same day as EU Ref – 23rd May – as pointed out by James Kelly – no, not the BLiS one, the intelligent one).

    13. admiral says:

      This narrative is building over the Guardian comments section, as well.

      Looks like a calculated ploy by Labour to try and spin a narrative that the “SNP did it and ran away!”, which will, no doubt, be gleefully carried in the MSM.

    14. Bob Mack says:

      What it boils down to is simply this.
      1. Labour members with large leave constituencies want to keep their jobs.
      2. Mrs May and the DUP wanted all options voted against last night and whipped her party to do so, citing the danger of allowing Scotland becoming independent if there was no threat of being unable to trade with the rest of the UK.

      That appears to be their weapon of choice.

      If I ever doubted how much Scotland is needed to keep England afloat, Mrs May and the DUP has dispelled them completely.

    15. Heather McLean says:

      Labour are holding out for a General Election which they think they can win, which just goes to prove how utterly deluded they are.

    16. Willie says:

      Absolute scum bag Labour.

      But no surprise because this is the party who in Scotland during the IndyRef worked hand in hand with the Orange Lodge.

    17. Socrates MacSporran says:

      And the Bain Principle is carved on tablets of stone, to be followed by every Labour MP.

    18. There is no Labour Party now. Just the Red Tories and Corbyn’s Commies.
      Murray is a useless wee Hanger On, by the skin of his red white and blue teeth.
      UK GE and Indyref 2 now only options.

    19. Doug Bryce says:

      Ignoring issue of Labour abstentions.

      Why should SNP back a hard-ish form of brexit (customs union) that will damage the Scottish economy!? It might be more palatable than no-deal, however that doesn’t make it a good idea.

      Good to see Ian Murray setting the bar high for Scotland.

    20. Willie says:

      Absolute scum bag Labour.

      But no surprise because this is the party who in Scotland during the IndyRef worked hand in hand with the Orange Lodge.

      How Labour could work with an organisation that sings about being up to its knees in Fenian blood tells you all about what Labour stands for.

    21. Johnny says:

      Can only take it Ross above did not bother to read Joanna Cherry’s proposal which covered pretty much all eventualities and ends by saying, more or less, ‘if we cannot come up with anything else, we revoke article 50 and by that means avoid No Deal’. At least that’s my understanding of it (correct me if wrong someone). So, Ross, there is/was an alternative allowing No Deal to ‘come off the table’; it was revocation as the last resort if no other arrangement could be agreed upon.

    22. Frank Waring says:

      “How is simply saying “no deal off the table” the only way to stop no deal?”
      It isn’t: there were 3 ways for the UK to stop no deal. One was to proceed orderly as the government required to an exit on May 22nd. That window has now closed. The second is to convince the EU that a process has begun that will lead to the UK providing a stable and responsible negotiating partner, and that during this process, the election of UK members to the EU parliament will proceed, and will not produce a UK delegation in this parliament which is openly determined to wreck the working of the EU. The third is to ‘revoke’ the operation of Article 50. The EU does not want us to do this, and would probably move against the UK in the European Court of Justice, on the grounds that the UK has not really changed its intention to leave.

    23. Dr Jim says:

      The Scotsman and the Herald will find conclusive evidence that Nicola Sturgeon has been planning the whole Brexit downfall of R precious Union for years, ever since she was eight years old it’s been her obsession, she’s written essays on it in primary school which the Guardian will print in full
      She’s in league with the EU to create rebellion so she can march into No 10 as dictator of the UK bringing her brand of hateful democracy to overule Englands lovely snuggly parliamentary mothering of its people

    24. Josef Ó Luain says:

      Peston was first-in with, the SNP done it, sir, spin. No surprise.

    25. Labour doing everything it can to force a GE which they will lose, allowing a hard right Tory government to cause truly lasting damage on the UK because they and the Tories are confident a ‘No deal’ will ‘eventually’ work out ok.

      Excuse me, how long will ‘eventually last’?

      “Don’t be stupid! We’ll just all tighten our belts, send children down the mines, bring back the poor house and let people die in the streets. It won’t take long till people are so desperate to eat that they will do any job just to get some bread – but there won’t be any.
      Many of them will die off because there isn’t enough medicine; all these ‘foreign’ people will go home and we’ll have the place to ourselves!

      ….and then my Pre-cioussss Union will be all mine!” Nya- HA, HA, HA! – wicked laugh

    26. ross says:

      to all,

      revoking does not equal “getting a deal”.

      revoking is cancelling.

      who says it would even be accepted by the EU? It’s not a real cancellation if its simply used to gain more time.

      Revoking is not an alternative deal.

      SNP believes it will never be forgiven for allowing ANY Brexit deal of Tory/Labour/UK making to pass. Therefore politics is involved rather than logical compromise.

      Do we really believe the EU are going to give the UK single market access, customs union and freedom of movement? It’s wishful thinking but knowing full well it will never be offered.

    27. winifred mccartney says:

      Why would labour let the truth get in the way of a good snp bashing. They have not a brass neck it is rubber and will bend any which way with the wind.

      If they believe they can win a general election they really are mad and it would not be strange to see Boris in power with a majority but then at least Corbyn would have to go.

      I agree with inkypic above and I can’t believe either that we ever thought labour was for the people, they are only for themselves and couldn’t run a raffle. At least with the tories you know what you are getting but with labour it is just a lust for power with no substance or principals.

      I feel so sorry for all the people who have believed in them including many in my own family. Look at what we are left with – not one statesman among them, not one person you can admire or look up to, not one person who can debate or convince and not one with any intellect. As someone else said of Starmer and I put Watson alongside, their intellect has been sold out to the fools around them.

    28. Well at least Angus Mac Neill didn’t bust a gut to go through hell and high water in his attempt to escape from the military exercises being held off Barra and find that his vote would not really have made any difference.

      We hear the frustration of Ian Blackford – only sad that we don’t get to hear the real voice of N.Ireland in all this burach.

    29. Proud Cybernat says:

      Mrs May and the DUP wanted all options voted against last night and whipped her party to do so, citing the danger of allowing Scotland becoming independent if there was no threat of being unable to trade with the rest of the UK.

      Brexit is all about the UK cutting itself off from its biggest trading partner because, allegedly, UK will do better without a deal with its biggest trading partner (No deal is better than a bad deal).

      Except when it comes to Scotland, cutting yourself off from your biggest trading partner (supposedly rUK) is the daftest thing in history.

      Except UK is NOT Scotland’s biggest trading partner – the EU is:

      Except May is basically telling businesses in Scotland that they will not be allowed to trade with Scotland.

      Except we have the electricity, water and naval bases that rUK needs i.e. we hold the good cards.

      So Mrs May – you will happily send Fox to make a Global Trade Agreement with Papua New Guinea and Fiji but just not with Scotland.

      Chase yerself.

    30. Proud Cybernat says:

      * Except May is basically telling businesses in rUK that they will not be allowed to trade with Scotland.*

    31. Abulhaq says:

      Beginning to look like it’s May’s EU approved agreement or a crash out. The EU is ready for both, the Brit lawmakers seem ready for neither.
      If independence does not result from this circumstance, then it will never happen. Conditions have never been more favourable.

    32. Capella says:

      So what happened to the Fixed Term Parliament Act? Did they fix the term to 2 years?

    33. ross @ 10.47

      are you an MP or a QC?

      thought not!

      Joanna Cherry is both.
      She was one of the 6 people who successfully took the Revoke Article 50 challenge to the ECJ and won the case
      i.e. the UK can unilaterally – ( on its own without input from any other member state) decide to revoke Article 50 at any time during the Leave process with no forfeit to the current membership and would remain a full member of the EU with all the current arrangements e.g. budget rebate, use of sterling etc.

      She is also a very successful, learned and respected MP who is credited with being one of only a handful of adults talking sense in WM just now.

      ps over 6 million people feel strongly enough about it to sign the petition and invade London to show their strength of feeling.

      Perhaps your uncertainty stems from the fact that at almost no time during the last few months has any media outlet explained, let alone even mention, the possibility of revocation as a solution to the deadlock.

      It’s worth pointing out also that Sir Keir Starmmer basically said that Labour would not back the motion because they didn’t think the crisis was serious enough yet for taking the decision to revoke Article 50 – so he obviously believes it cancels ‘no deal’ as well.

    34. ross says:


      Except UK is NOT Scotland’s biggest trading partner – the EU is:

      i do not believe it is accurate to say this. The EU is Scotland’s largest INTERNATIONAL trading partner.

      The rest of the UK is counted as a domestic partner. It is larger than the export to the EU.

      I’m an SNP member fully in favour of independence but let’s get our facts right. The deal is hugely important to us if we get independence.

      “Sales to other parts of the EU besides Britain increased to £14.9bn in 2017, a 13.3% rise on the previous year, the Scottish Government said yesterday. It was the biggest area of growth for Scottish exports globally, with the overall figure – excluding oil and gas – up by 6.2% to £32.4bn.

      Exports to the rest of the UK were also up, by 4.6% to £48.9bn, confirming England, Wales and Northern Ireland as Scotland’s main outlet for trade. Sales to the rest of the UK made up 60% of the total exports from Scotland, with the EU and rest of the world accounting for 18% and 22% respectively.”

    35. Capella says:

      I think I will go to the bank – RBS might be best – to ask for a huge loan to buy a yacht. Then, after Independence, I can run a whisky smuggling business to London because Westminster will have banned trade with Scotland. Surely the bank will see the merit in my business plan.

    36. Isn’t it funny how some people posting on this site try to make us think that Scotland is too wee, too poor and too stupid to survive after Independence.

      They write all sorts of ‘official’ figures that are supposed to make us think that these lies are true.

      Just checked in the mirror and the bad news is , my head doesn’t button up the back and I think I can recognise a troll at 50 paces.

      Anybody else?

    37. Thepnr says:

      @Frank Waring

      The third is to ‘revoke’ the operation of Article 50. The EU does not want us to do this, and would probably move against the UK in the European Court of Justice, on the grounds that the UK has not really changed its intention to leave.

      FFS what kind of imbecilic bullshit is this?

      The UK can revoke Article 50 if it chooses to do so, that has ALREADY been ruled as lawful by the ECJ and will NOT be revisited.

    38. ross says:

      @meg merrilees

      1. You don’t know what I am

      2. I like Joanna Cherry very much and think her option was an important step though never seriously in doubt.

      3. It will be challenged by the EU unless it is an actual cancellation.

      4. We don’t do politics by petition. It is in our movement’s interests for referendum results to count.

      5. The only way no deal is taken off the table is if an alternative is put forward. The other option is to cancel it entirely. No deal is never off the table when leaving is the course.

      6. In an ideal world, the SNP would love to accept May’s deal, move on and have another indyref. It cannot do so for political rather than logical reasons. May’s deal is in an independent Scotland’s interests. However, cannot be displayed as so in the current atmosphere.

    39. Proud Cybernat says:

      Ross believes rUK will not trade with an Indy Scotland when rUK needs all the trade it can get.

      Ross is misguided.

      Don’t be like Ross.

      PS – Very few folks here on WoS click on live links to Unionist rags like P&J. We refuse to pay for their propaganda.

    40. Thepnr says:

      @ross says: at 10:47 am

      How is simply saying “no deal off the table” the only way to stop no deal?

      @ross says: at 11:15 am

      to all,

      revoking does not equal “getting a deal”.

      revoking is cancelling.

      ross you are a fucking idiot.

    41. Bob Mack says:


      Just what do you think the trade with the rest of the UK comprises?

      I tell you this. It isn’t deckchairs and flip flops. We supply England an the rest of the UK with —-mark this word
      ESSENTIALS. We produce gas and fuel ,food and even water. You no doubt know England’s reservoirs are drying up eh?

      We do enormous business with the rest of the UK because they need it.

      Imagine they lose EU trade and Scottish trade as well. They will be eating their pets in a month and burning £10 notes to keep warm.

    42. Willie says:

      I hope all our MPs in London have armed protection officers.

      Reading about the right wing BritNat thugs that are now mainstream, and reading about the threats being made to our SNP members, it’s crystal clear that Theresa May’s Hostile Environment has served its purpose in setting the scene in fomenting hatred to foreigners and immigrants.

      Indeed, recognising the tidal wave of stabbings, the murder of Jo Cox, the carefully constructed and cultivated journey to Hostile Environment appears only to be beginning.

      To use an old song beloved by the Brit Loyalists, it’s good to be up to your knees in the blood of those of whom you despise!

      Yes join up the dots.

    43. Johnny says:

      I don’t think anyone said revoking was ‘getting a deal’ anyway. That’s quite Hothersall-esque moving of all the goalposts.

      The original point you made, Ross, was that no deal could not be ‘taken off the table’. In fact, revoking (which, at least without throwing it to a public vote, is not necessarily my favourite option) DOES ‘take it off the table’ as there is no longer any immediate need to seek a deal.

      There is also a high chance at that point that article 50 would never be enacted again and so revocation is the likeliest way (particularly at this juncture) of ensuring No Deal does not happen in the short (and probably long) term).

    44. ross says:

      Please tell me when have I stated no trade will happen with the rUK? Or that it is poor quality goods? We trade quantities and quality too and will continue to do so.

      Odd take from a comment noting Scotland trades with the rUK.

      We’re a great country.

      @Thepnr Thanks for your critical thought. You lot are the sort that turned soft Yes to No. Unable to make an argument.

    45. Clootie says:

      It is not our job to save England from this madness. It is our job to ensure Scots have a better future.
      Getting involved with these votes is akin to stepping into a “Brexit Marriage spat”. They won’t listen and will probably turn on you for trying.

    46. Brian says:

      You know that bit about the sun dying…I bet Labour will blame thr SNP for that too.

    47. Clootie says:

      I see a new poster with an old recognisable style!
      Another one to skip!

    48. ross says:


      Cheers for at least discussing in a proper manner.

      I don’t want Brexit at all and think Scotland must make another decision.

      That said I think rUK should leave and cancelling is the opposite of negotiating a Brexit deal.

      I concede if Brexit is not taken forward then No deal is taken off the table. But I think that’s a truism rather than actually concentrating on the act of negotiating.

    49. ross says:


      I am a newish poster sure. Not sure what you are referring to but sounds like you would prefer a slavish comment section than critical thought.

      It’s good to critique your own sides thinking, you know.

      I read Wings a lot and enjoy the style. I don’t tend to comment when I agree. I’m commenting now as I disagree. If that’s an issue for you so be it.

    50. Thepnr says:


      So now you “concede” that your original comment was idiotic.

      It’s good to critique your own sides thinking, you know.

      Hahahaha 🙂

    51. Iain mhor says:

      So Labour are angling for power via a National ‘Unity’ Government then. They know they can’t win a GE so it makes twisted sense to try the route of desperation and force the emergency.
      One thing is for sure, it won’t be a government of all the talents.

    52. Undeadshuan says:


      Was thinking the same thing another 77th alias perhaps?

    53. HandandShrimp says:

      It is too painful for Labour to face up to the fact that their whip means nothing and that their rebels decided the fate of the votes. Much easier to pick one if the votes and claim that the SNP should have done Labour’s job for them. Boles’ draft included the CU and SM. The SNP were always going to back that option.

      May would likely have ignored any vote passed but that is another story.

    54. Cageybee says:

      It always amazes me how many “new” SNP members are arguing from a britnat perspective. Another one joins the ignore list

    55. Bob Mack says:

      There were 190,000 workers in Scotland in 2016 from various countries,but over 128,000 of them were from the EU.

      They teach our children,they tend our sick and work in our public sector and fields.

      They are essential to keep Scotland running.

      If you accept any deal which puts that at risk you are effectively jeopardising our everyday normality as it is now.

      No deal thus far has addressed that and given a guarantee that this free movement would continue. You may hear an inference of it, but that is not a guarantee. Any future Prime Minister or Government could change it if they wished.

      Scotland needs immigration to function or indeed grow at all.
      That is our first and foremost requirement.

    56. Petra says:

      Onto the wee propaganda roundabout again. Labour politicians (Tory and / or Libdems), such as Ian Murray MP for Edinburgh South, lie through their teeth and the Unionist MSM run with the story followed by the Unionist MP’s making a meal of the MSM fake news.

      Let’s hope that they hold a GE with the Tory Party being decimated under the leadership of someone like Johnston, Farage steals votes from the two cheeks of the same ar*e and the SNP refuse to back Corbyn.

      Oh and thanks once again Stu for taking the time out to expose the charlatans.


      And some good news, as per the Sun newspaper. Our own Royal baby, first child of Angus and Jennifer Robertson, is due to arrive in June XXX.

    57. Liam says:

      Here’s a thing: The BBC Scottish newspapers page has The National at the top – and borrows its headline:

      Scottish votes on Brexit ‘ignored’

    58. Thepnr says:

      This is worth a watch, it’s Barnier telling it as it is.

    59. Dr Jim says:

      News coming out of No 10 Mrs May is still saying NO to everything and everybody and plans to bring back her deal or no deal for a fourth time

    60. Yerkitbreeks says:

      It’s worth reminding ourselves that Ian Murray’s take is simply a relic of the discredited first past the post electoral system.

      This maintains the supremacy of Party over Population even in an imminent self destruct situation.

    61. Macart says:

      Mr Murray apparently still doing the politics as it is practised thing then. And who is this ‘we’ he’s talking about? Scotland’s electorate voted overwhelmingly to not leave the EU last I checked. Is Mr Murray saying the Scottish government should ignore that stated wish?

      As the Scottish government they were presented with an impossible task. Square a catastrophic constitutional circle not of their making and honour, (as best possible), the results of two referendums.

      C.U. and Single Market is the SNPs stated bottom line compromise for Brexit and anything that would aid in achieving that bottom line. Not a compromise they should have had to come up with at all really. They’ve spent more time than many folk are happy with simply trying to square that circle and honour those results.

      This isn’t exactly the UK going forward Mr Murray and his chooms sold Scotland’s population over four years ago. He might want to bear that in mind.

    62. All this talk of deals the ref., asked leave or remain leave won no deals just leave but business
      Saw an end to their cheap labour and keeping low wages so all these deals were thought up to try to stop the democratic vote of the people and terms a people’s vote cliff edge crash out etc when all it rally means is to leave the people have already voted but big business won’t accept it higher wages mean lower profits and they will use the same tactics in a Scottish ref.,2 so do not be fooled by them tryIng to overturn a democratic vote under the guise of democracy

    63. starlaw says:

      The people of Scotland voted to remain in the EU, it is the SNP’s duty to retain this position, nothing more nothing less.

    64. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “SNP believes it will never be forgiven for allowing ANY Brexit deal of Tory/Labour/UK making to pass. Therefore politics is involved” @ross says at 11:15 am

      The SNP are correct they will “never be forgiven” if they allow the Sovereign People of Scotland to have their EU Citizenship removed against their democratically expressed will (62% to remain in 2016).

      @ross also says “Do we really believe the EU are going to give the UK single market access?”

      Why wouldn’t they? It is only TMay and the Xenophobic Brexit Bunch’s ‘red lines’ which are preventing this.

      Isn’t it a strange quirk of WoS that when an article such as this one highlighting British Labours hypocrisy BTL is quickly filled with nonsense?

    65. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Government of ‘National Unity’ is it @Iain mhor says at 12:09 pm

      Won’t be the a Government that gives a toss about the Scottish Nation I suspect.

      It will however be interested in retaining ‘unity’ with our natural resources I suspect.

    66. Graf Midgehunter says:

      “I’m just being me”, Speaker Bercow.

      Johnny Foreigner: From the outside looking in.

    67. cirsium says:

      @Petra, 12.24
      Let’s hope that they hold a GE with the Tory Party being decimated under the leadership of someone like Johnston, Farage steals votes from the two cheeks of the same ar*e and the SNP refuse to back Corbyn.

      If there is a GE, let’s hope the SNP stand on an independence ticket and get us out of here. No more Westminster game-playing or politicking.

    68. Arthur Thomson says:

      The SNP must and will only back a vote that serves the interests of Scotland and its people.

      So long as there are any doubts that the majority of Scottish people want independence the first responsibility of the SNP is to limit the damage that Scotland’s enemies seek to inflict on it.

      The SNP has made clear that it is against leaving the EU, as are a clear majority of Scotland’s population. The only compromise the SNP has and will put forward is SM and CU. Their active involvement in Brexit has been to these ends. That has been to serve Scotland’s interests not rUK interests.

      Statements by Peston, Murray etc are just the British angle on events and will of course be amplified by the British media. They have no scruples in their desire to destroy Scotland.

      Imagine how it would have been if the mock Jocks in the Labour party still had sway in Scotland. We are a country mile ahead of where we were ten years ago.

      And each day another few Scots come to realise that. The pot is simmering nicely. It is literally impossible to know how all this is going to pan out but most certainly life for the Brits is not going to get better. Sigh.

    69. CameronB Brodie says:

      There is an element of the left who are simply ideologically opposed to the EU, which in their neo-Trot minds consider the greatest neo-liberal threat in the universe. This is an illogical position, as Britain is more neo-liberal than the EU. Perhaps they have other, less wholesome, motivation for seeking the full-English Brexit, such as a support or fear of white English/British nationalism.

    70. cirsium says:

      @Arthur Thomson, 1.10pm

      “mock Jocks”. Thanks for that description – a good alternative to BritNat.

    71. Mogabee says:

      Cameron B

      Agree wholeheartedly with your conclusion!

    72. Arbroath1320 says:

      A couple of things caught my ear last night.

      1) Kier Starmer effectively said during the debate “now is not the time” when talking about Joanna Cherry’s Motion.

      2) Tory M.P. Budgeon said during an interview, think it was on SKY, that he had heard a rumour that Feartie was thinking of bring MV4 back to the Commons as a confidence motion. I took this to mean that if MV4 loses AGAIN *YAWN* then she’ll call a General Election.

      After last night’s votes I adopted the my usual “well you lot can just f**k off then” attitude and came up with a plan to f**k Labour.

      As we know Starmer said “not tonight Josephine” to Joanna Cherry when talking about her motion.

      Apparently we are going to be having round three on Wednesday of the “Can we get ANY option past the winning post” game in the House of Commons. Perhaps just to screw Labour J.C. should NOT put forward her motion and THEN let’s see what Labour does.

      Sure they would moan and complain about S.N.P. BAAAAD but at the end of the day they have already had TWO chances to vote FOR her deal and FAILED to do so WHY would anyone think they would suddenly change their minds and vote FOR it this time?

      Willie Bain Principle ROOLS! ?

      Of course what I have written here about J.C. and her motion is pure fantasy cause in the reality of Westminster we all know she WILL return with her motion tomorrow and more than likely the utterly useless Labour Front Bench will STILL be adopting their “not tonight Josephine” approach!

    73. robertknight says:

      The Most Noble & Excellent North British Labour Party.

      More collective neck than ‘Melman’ the f***ing giraffe!

    74. CameronB Brodie says:

      I think there’s a good bit of posturing going on, re. opposition to the EU. A lot of it is simply flat out cultural chauvinism and racism.

    75. Petra says:

      @ cirsium says at 1:09 pm …. ”Petra – If there is a GE, let’s hope the SNP stand on an independence ticket and get us out of here. No more Westminster game-playing or politicking.”

      Let’s not forget that 16/17 year olds and EU nationals won’t be allowed to vote in a GE, cirsium.

      In 2014, 109,553 16/17 year olds put themselves on the electoral register for the referendum. There’s around 200,000 EU nationals living in Scotland with approximately 160,000 of voting age.

      These two groups could help swing the vote in our favour. And in the case of EU nationals, of course, only if Indyref2 is held before we leave the EU.

    76. Thepnr says:

      @Arthur Thomson 1:10

      Very well put and I agree with all you said.

    77. Capella says:

      CBB – I don’t think they can be “Trots”. In my limited knowledge of these arcane matters, Trotsky was the one who advocated an “Internationalist” approach as opposed to Stalin’s “socialism in one country”. So Trotsky was the one who ended up with an axe through the head.

      Netflix has an excellent series on Trotsky FYI.

    78. geeo says:

      . Didn’t read the article properly – Check !

      . Can’t admit failure to read article – Check !

      . Self proclaimed SNP member-honest guv- Check !

      . Never posted anything SNP/INDY positive – Check !

      . Reacting to EVERY negative comment – Check !

      . Quotes/references unionist rags – Check !

      . Dribbling out unionist propoganda – Check !

      . Thinks Scotland and the uk are seperate entities:

      (“Except UK is NOT Scotland’s biggest trading partner – the EU is”)

      Well, actually, Scotland IS 50% of the UK (Equal Partners remember) so cannot be a “trading partner” with THEMSELVES !

      Yup, we have a live one ‘ere…!

      They just cannot help themselves.

    79. CameronB Brodie says:

      Your right, it was just my lazy short-hand for communists.

    80. Jack Murphy says:

      EXCL TODAY.The state of Murray’s Party. From PoliticsHome:

      ” Labour MPs call on Ian Lavery to quit as party chairman after latest Brexit vote rebellion

      Ian Lavery has been urged to resign as Labour party chairman after he defied Jeremy Corbyn by again refusing to vote for a second EU referendum.

      The frontbencher ignored a three-line whip to abstain on Peter Kyle and Phil Wilson’s motion calling for any deal passed by the Commons to be put to the public in another vote………..”

    81. Frank Waring says:

      You have to read this. It is the only hope:
      (Joanna Cherry’s amendment turned into a bill by Jo Maugham)

    82. K1 says:

      Pretty much geeo, well summarised. has only posted 3 times on Wings apart from today.

      Two recent posts critical of Stu’s polling questions, with no ‘bites’ from other commenters and an irrelevant ‘dip the toe in’ one from 2015 again with no comments from others.

      Got a ‘bite’ today, so more ‘airtime’…going up in the world eh 😉

    83. K1 says:

      Have to correct myself, there was one brief flash in the pan ‘bite’ from one of their comments. All in all no positive commentary pertaining to Independence nor our current situation.

    84. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Capella @ 14:26,

      You are right, “neo-Stalinists” is nearer the mark. (Ian Murray excepted, of course.)

      Oh, and this smokescreening from the party where “freedom of movement” dare no longer speak its name. Great show for the self-righteous “internationalists”. It’s now “socialism in one country”, it seems. Which takes us right back to where I started…

    85. K1 says:

      Aye never forget Labour’s ‘immigration’ mugs. I mean they actually had those made…clownfucks.

    86. ross says:


      Some of you people are seriously thin skinned. Inferring a lot of mince without any evidence.

      “(“Except UK is NOT Scotland’s biggest trading partner – the EU is”)

      Well, actually, Scotland IS 50% of the UK (Equal Partners remember) so cannot be a “trading partner” with THEMSELVES !”

      That’s the point i’m making, you clown. The person was excluding the rUK from the list of international exports and giving the impression our trade with EU is bigger than rUKexports.

      It’s a funny type of fifth columnist saying unequivocally we

      will continue to trade with rUK and
      we should have another independence referendum and hopefully, for the love of god, vote yes.

      The tin ear to anything you don’t like is your trait, not mine.

      The figures quoted were from the Scottish Government. Not me or the Press and Journal.

    87. ross says:


      As stated, I do not comment unless I have something to say.

      sorry should I just write twenty

      “that’ll show the red tories”

      “Another brilliant article Stu, skewered again”

      “BAIN principle again!”

      I support independence. I don’t need to write one hundred inane comments about it.

      I like this blog because it doesn’t need to take a political line. It can be ruthlessly truthful. I didn’t like the inaccurate angle on the teachers numbers, I didn’t like the poll question because it deviated from what I like about this blog. It’s pro-independence angle but accuracy. It was inaccurate or knowingly flawed and I called it out.

      You’re over zealousness is not normal.

    88. ross says:

      I commented in 2014 or 15 too about an inaccuracy on GERS and Stu corrected himself. I respect him for it.

    89. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      ross 16:07,

      Ross, you’re looking backwards, not forwards. Whatever the figures now are, our future as an independent country will be with the substantially larger trade bloc which is the EU than with an isolationist England. Look at the history of Ireland over the last few decades if you doubt this.

      And the trade we will do with England will be largely on our terms, because we will be selling the essentials they need. The very resources they are currently so very desperate to hang on to.

      Unless they figure out how to make better whisky than us, that is. =laugh=

    90. geeo says:

      ross is comedy gold.

      Bwah hah hah !!!

    91. geeo says:

      ross says:

      2 April, 2019 at 4:07 pm

      I commented in 2014 or 15 too about an inaccuracy on GERS and Stu corrected himself.

      As Kevin Bridges would say: “Did Ye, aye” ?

    92. K1 says:

      Given that you have written that you have nothing to say of any value (positive) about any of Wings articles I rather think you just made ma point for me?

      So what you are acknowledging is in fact that you ‘only’ ‘criticise’ on Wings, but you are unable to engage your critical faculties to address other issues on hundreds of Wings articles that have been written.

      Do you want a wee medal for moaning?

      Not one person has taken you up on the three previous comments you have posted previously on Wings. Because what you have written has no merit, if anything you apparently think you are challenging in terms of Stu’s polling had even the slightest veracity, Stu would have come btl to address it. Which makes my point again, it’s just an ‘excerice’ in ‘criticising’ for the sake of it.

      I’ve just noted your last paragraph as I am typing this where you claim that ‘Stu corrected himself’.

      I’d like proof of that statement ross. You have only commented on 3 previous articles, none of those comments support this claim. And the one and only article where you have posted on 8th October 2014 contains no such comment nor response from Stu.

      Unless of course you were posting under a different name back then?

      If that is the case rather makes me wonder why the name change?

    93. geeo says:

      Oh dear ross….looks like you have been rather owned har har ..!!

    94. K1 says:

      ‘ruthlessly truthful’

      You like that?

      One could describe Wings articles as being ‘over zealous’ in the forensic ‘dissection of shit when you see it, call it was it is’ bracket. Or alternatively describe Wings articles as ‘ruthlessly truthful’?

      See the point?

      I too like the ‘ruthlessly truthful’ aspect of Wings atl and the btl commenters who are drawn to it because they too posses a certain critical capacity that also fits the ‘dissection of shit when you see it, call it what it is’ bracket. Or alternatively describe commenters ‘over zealous’?

      All in the eye of the beholder.

    95. ross says:


      1. Value is not positivity.

      2. I can consider things without writing a public comment. Alien to some on here, maybe.

      3. He did correct himself or certainly understand the point. It was something about a percentage of a percentage in GERS. Unfortunately it was not in our favour. He said something along the lines of “Ah you may be right, it could be read that way”. It did make me think: “That’s good, he reads and considers the comments”. All of the above is constructive criticism. You’ll note I always say I like the majority of what is on the blog. I didn’t like the polling question because I know he’s had advice from Prof Curtice before on how questions can be leading. Therefore, I thought better questions could have been asked. I have in a small part paid for it via donation so I think I’ve every right to comment.

      4. I couldn’t care less about changing an internet name. I’ve commented probably around 10 times. Maybe I used another email, work, trash email. So what.

      5. I did have a twitter handle (elfogolatlan) for a while. Maybe I used that. If for “evidence” search that. Maybe I used that. Seen as you’re more tech savvy than me.

      6. I actual feel like I’m lowering myself here to puddle drinking nonsense with the last two points.

    96. ross says:


      I described you as over zealous as you have attacked my integrity as a Yes supporter because you didn’t agree with my political comment.

      That is not dissection of shit. It is thin skinned crap.

    97. K1 says:

      1. I’m not actually stating that it is…I am emphasising that the ‘value’ you bring has no ‘positive’ merit in relation to the mater under discussion and so it is ‘critical’ in the ‘negative just for the sake of it.

      2. Your next sentence is irrelevant, no one is suggesting you write more or less than you have.

      3. There is no record of you having made the comment you are referring to ross. Nor any where Stu has responded to this comment.

      4. No you haven’t commented 10 times ross. You’ve commented the number of times I’ve already stated.

      5. Can’t really comment on your ‘feelings’, as they are yours and it’s up to you what you do with that.

    98. ross says:


      “Ross, you’re looking backwards, not forwards. Whatever the figures now are, our future as an independent country will be with the substantially larger trade bloc which is the EU than with an isolationist England. Look at the history of Ireland over the last few decades if you doubt this.”

      I’m not looking forward or backwards. I didn’t make a comment on what was best for us other than saying we should be independent.

      I was simply giving the accurate figures for our export market and that the deal will be important for us.

      I appreciate the tone of a reasonable conversation, though. Cheers.

    99. K1 says:

      No I have not ‘attacked’ your ‘integrity as a Yes supporter’

      Can I suggest if you are going to accuse commenters of anything that you link to the post you are referring to? In this instance you will see that at no point have I suggested this, in fact it is you who is now ‘accusing’ me of ‘things I never said’.

      ‘thin skinned crap’

      This has no basis in reality.

      Look ross, I’m pointing out simple factual observations regarding your previous comment history on Wings, the comment you are referring wrt GERS is not in your comment history, the only logical reason for this is that you posted under (even a misspelling of one’s name, can produce this) a different name.

    100. ross says:

      1. Okay, well… that’s your opinion.. thumbs up for that. It may be possible to criticise as means of improving.

      2. Read your own 4 again. I envisage you jumping up and down telling the writer how many times he’s written.

      3. Well take my word for it. If you don’t, i’ll survive.

      4. You know it’s possible you may be right. It could be 6 or 7.

      5. Okay, thanks.

    101. K1 says:

      Okay, now we can get to the ‘substantive’ aspect of what and why you are posing what you are?

      Do we not have enough ‘critics’ ross?

      Why don’t you comment more often about the ‘merits’ of our cause.

      Simple enough?

    102. ross says:


      Your first two comments were a clear implication that I am a troll whether britnat or other. Laughable to suggest otherwise.

      I accept the snivelling Randall Weems you were agreeing with was more implicit. There’s clearly something a bit odd about that one hardi har har!!

      That’s fine K1. I accept that under my current email and name the comment does not exist in the history. It doesn’t mean it didn’t happen (even if it did, I’m not suggesting it’s that big deal anyway).

    103. ross says:

      @k1 I do all the time. Publicly. I think we’re better to be right in what we say though. That’s all. I think it sets us in good stead. Saying rUK exports are bigger than EU is easily destroyed and makes us look incredible.

      We’re on the same side. I’m not having more of a go.


    104. yesindyref2 says:

      Thanks for the analysis Rev, I did a quick bit before going to my pit at about 4 this morning to put a posting in the Herald about it, helped by your twitter feed and the Grun full list MP voting article. To his credit Murray and the other 6 Scottish Labour MPs voted for on all 4 votes, which makes it all the more surprising that he thought to attack the SNP on just one vote – and make up stuff like the SNP had supported the Customs Union only option. Sigh.

    105. K1 says:

      Fair enough ross, but ye cannae ‘claim the comment’ if it is as you say ‘not under’ your ‘current email and name’.

      You can understand that it raises a wee concern if a poster is claiming they said something that is not verifiable though? It goes to ‘their’ integrity.

      Which is ironically what you yourself say you want to highlight about ‘our side’ keeping it ‘right’?

      His summary was accurate ross, something didn’t ‘actually’ sit right especially when you claimed a comment that you now ‘explicitly’ acknowledge was posted under a different email and or name on this site.

      So yes I do think you kinda brought the ‘scrutiny’ upon yourself. Which you of all people should appreciate…ruthless as it is 🙂

    106. Clootie says:


      Do you know any other winger through Yes, SNP,Greens, AUOB etc etc. .
      Active but isolated?

    107. geeo says:

      I see the shit shoveller is still digging…deary me.

      3. He did correct himself or certainly understand the point. 

      2 parts to that comedy classic.

      1. So QUOTE the EXACT comment then ?

      K1 can easily find out how many times you posted, you should easily find the quote you claim.

      2. Which is it ?

      Did he “correct himself” OR “understood the point”?

      Comedy gold on WoS right there, but as always…save the best farce till last..

      “I accept that under my CURRENT EMAIL and NAME the COMMENT DOES NOT EXIST in the history.

      “It doesn’t mean it didn’t happen (even if it did…..etc”)


      Try read THAT tosh with a straight face…!!

      You should do a comedy tour, ross, yer material is actually hilarious.

    108. Donald anderson says:

      Corbyn the Abstainer and Boris Karloff. Wot a choice.

      Bring back May Day Mother Theresa.

    109. geeo says:


      Download the COMMONS VOTES app maybe ?

      Give pretty quick details of every commons vote taken in HoC and has a previous votes searchable database.

      Saves a lot of searching around.

    110. yesindyref2 says:

      The UK can unilaterally revoke Article 50, as per the ECJ ruling on the 6 cross-party member case. All it needs is a letter from the head of Government to the EU (Theresa May), and could I guess arrive one minute before the deadline. The problem apparently is UK legislation.

    111. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      ross @ 17:18,

      I was simply giving the accurate figures for our export market and that the deal will be important for us

      It will be even more important to England. That’s the part we far too often neglect. The English Establishment typically act as if they are the final arbiter of everything, and far too often until now Scots have just accepted that as a given. As you still seem to be doing. They claim to be our friends yet implicitly threaten us with trade sanctions. But in this case they need us more than we need them, so it’s just so much empty bluster.

      Their current isolationist path will hurt them badly (even if the dullard Leavers don’t recognise it yet), and it will undoubtedly hurt all their neighbours too. But better to be in a position like Ireland than to be passively dragged-down with England as it sinks.

      None of these choices are easy. It’s hard times, and it requires tough decisions. But we just can’t afford to be England’s patsy any longer.

    112. yesindyref2 says:

      iPhone 4S, don’t even know if it could take it, and all I use it for anyway is to keep in touch with family when away (whatsapp group chats), plus a little browsing but the screen is too small to be bothered. For the rare phone or text I use an old £10 PAYG flip Samsung. I think I found the Grun page via google, nicely presented, just the DK!

    113. Maria F says:

      The results of the vote last night only served to confirm what I already knew. Labour, like the tories, do not really give a sht about “no deal”. It is all pretence, smoke and mirrors. Labour Mps cannot bring themselves to vote actively for “no deal” because such action will be politically toxic. But the real way to prove these MPs are against no deal is by ensuring a no deal can never happen – voting by Ms Cherry’s motion. By refusing to vote for this motion, Tories, labour and the occasional libdem have demonstrated to all of us voters that they are nothing but charlatans who are colluding and working together to foist no deal over us.

      Labour is not the opposition party. It never was. The SNP and Plaid are the real opposition in the UK.

    114. yesindyref2 says:

      The problem with a Customs Union solution is especially bad for Scotland. We are dependent, not only for agriculture, but particularly for tourism. I posted stuff about that on some other thread in the night or yesterday. From memory tourism is worth £9.7 billion, from abroad and also from the rest of the UK – and Scotland itself. And there’s something like 14,000 EU nationals work in the sector.

      For them it’s a working holiday, accomodation and food often thrown in, social with the people they work with aprticualrly in hostels, even the customers!

      Thing is, that if they’re not working in the restaurants, cafes, hotels, B&Bs, hostels and bunkhouses, cleaning for self-catering and the other accomodations, and in the attractions around that support tourism, basically tourism would be cut enormously – probably over half. I know, I visit a lot of tourist places during the season for business.

      So we need freedom of movement, probably more than the Single Market itself.

    115. North chiel says:

      Looks like Britnat Tory/ 2nd eleven Lab collusion to attempt to save “ the precious precious union “ then . Any Brexit other than a “ pre Independence SM/CU must “ trigger” the mandate .

    116. yesindyref2 says:

      And to head off the “why not employ locals”, a lot of them move to the big cities or towns for “real” jobs, so there ARE no locals to employ on a relatively short-term seasonal basis.

    117. Arthur Thomson says:

      So May wants Corbyn to co-operate or is it collude in finding a good Brexit for the Brits. This could be entertaining but is Corbyn really going to fall for it? Is he really going to share the blame?

    118. geeo says:


      Does that make it a ‘rotten’ Apple ? (groans)

    119. defo says:

      You lot should know better by know.
      1-0 ross

    120. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Well, Ross has all been a nice distraction from the main point, smokescreening by SiU fellow-traveller Ian Murray MP, who blusters on Twitter in the hope of distracting people from noticing that a vast number of his fellow Labourites sat on their hands yet again rather than protect us all by voting for Joanne Cherry’s last-chance “no-deal buffer” motion. The one sure way to take “no-deal exit” off the table.

      Not to forget the 18-odd Labour fellow-travellers of the mad Tory Brexists, including ever-reliable anti-immigrant Jon Cruddas, the hypocrite with the Irish mother, who all voted against.

      Maybe Murray would be better engaged taking up his beef with them instead. Then we might start to take his complaints a teensy bit more seriously.

    121. Gary says:

      The ONLY time it’s NOT the SNP’s fault is when it’s the VOTER’s fault for voting SNP…

    122. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Gary.

      No need to single out one (nameless) voter. It’s the VOTERS’ fault for voting SNP… Collective responsibility an’ a’ thah…


    123. North chiel says:

      Looks like the “ precious precious union” , “ trumps” Brexit then . As I have said all along ( for the past 2 years) , the Westminster establishment have been attempting to play a hard Brexit against “ the precious precious” ( REAL 1707UNION) . Not the Irish border “ union” . . Tonight’s monumental “ climb down “ by May ( via the usual emergency state propaganda “ hushed” ( interuption to the daily dose of the Coronation st/ Eastenders drug fix statement from No. 10) . Thus the Britnat establishment ( 1st and 2nd eleven “ governments “ ) have decided that “ National Britnat unity “ is the order of the day . If you did not ascertain before fellow wingers that the “degree” of Brexit “ was linked extricably to the “ precious precious 1707 UNION” then you certainly know now that this has been the “ hidden Britnat smokescreen ( don’t mention Scotland) all along. So Nicola , you now have your clarity , if Britnat Tory& Labour “ cobble together” a “ soft Brexit” deal then unless Single market access for Scotland , Call the referendum now! The Britnat Establishment “ are on the run” . Time to “ order the charge” . Fix bayonets and take no prisoners.

    124. Ghillie says:

      I think Ian Murray is in for a rude shock.

      The folk of Edinburgh South who leant him their vote last time won’t be doing that again.

      Briefly, just briefly, I thought his wee rebellion the other day might be a hopeful sign. (thanks for that info Robert J Sutherland)

      Sadly not.

      My low opinion of Ian Murray is standing the test of time.

      As for Ian Murray’s tweet. What a wee shite.

    125. Iainmore says:

      Ian Murray is a Yoon reptile.

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