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Lies without end

Posted on December 18, 2022 by

The SNP is now almost entirely incapable of telling the truth.

Let’s just check the above by way of example.

(1) The SNP is NOT holding a “special conference” next March. In fact it’s holding its usual spring conference, like it did in March 2015 and March 2016 and March 2017. (2018’s got bumped to early June and 2019’s was April before COVID intervened, but March has always been the standard.) It’s doing literally NOTHING to respond to the Supreme Court judgement that it wouldn’t be doing anyway in any other year.

(2) Members and branches will of course have absolutely no say in the policy other than to rubber-stamp the decision that’s already been made. The SNP leadership has explicitly discounted one of the only two possible options for a plebiscite election.

So what’s even left to discuss? We’re told that the party’s Westminster MPs hate the idea of ANY kind of plebiscite election, so we suppose it’s possible there’ll be some sort of token attempt to abandon even that and revert to the SNP’s policy since 2015: keep asking the UK government for a Section 30 and whine a bit when it’s refused.

But even the payroll vote that constitutes most of the attendance at the party’s toothless, stage-managed conference these days would probably balk at a public back-down of that magnitude, so the leadership’s position will be endorsed and Yes supporters will be told yet again that the decision has been put in Scotland’s hands, just like they were at the last Westminster election three years ago.

Although they were told at the time that the vote would be in 2020 rather than 2024, and also that Scotland would “escape Brexit”, which we’re fairly sure hasn’t happened.

And that the vote would provide a “cast-iron mandate” for a second referendum even though they already had a “cast-iron mandate” from three years earlier.

And that any awkward questions about that were someone else’s problem.

(Johnson and Westminster’s answer, of course, turned out to be “the law”. And it’s not strictly relevant but just while we’re here, does anyone remember this happening?)

So let’s be really really clear: the SNP is lying to you yet again, because it’s become so used to lying to you that it barely even notices it’s doing it any more.

There is no “special conference”, and the members will have no say in independence policy, because that policy – “keep promising them an indyref ‘next year’ and count the votes” – hasn’t changed one syllable since Nicola Sturgeon became party leader, and never will as long as she remains.

(Although in fairness we should note that as far as we can tell, voters weren’t promised a 2022 indyref in 2021. It’s the only exception we can find, although back in its early years the party took an even cruder approach towards its voters, as can be seen in this recently-discovered poster from the 1945 general election.)

In 2023 members will therefore duly be promised an “indyref” of sorts in 2024, and they’ll lap it up and give her another standing ovation, and there’ll be an election with the odds stacked massively in favour of the Union and the SNP will get another cosy five years racking up pension entitlements on the benches of the House Of Commons until 2029 and Scotland will not be independent.

But don’t fret, readers – there will always be promises, and cast-iron mandates, and an endless supply of delicious carrots. (Maybe that’s what Peter Murrell’s loan was for.)

Although if proof was ever needed that carrots don’t actually improve your eyesight, a glimpse at the SNP membership is all it takes.

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136 to “Lies without end”

  1. Haud says:

    We all knew this of course..but it hurts more when you’ve written it down with all the evidence right there.

    So fukking depressing .

  2. Republicofscotland says:

    This can of worms only opens from the inside, we need the SNPs MSPs to do the right thing, we also need the membership to stand up and be counted, and we need the Yes groups and grass movement to protest against Sturgeon to do the right thing and collapse Holyrood and use the snap Holyrood elections as a de facto indy vote.

    But we can’t do it without their help, if they truly want to see Scotland independent this is what they must do, inaction means you’re part of the problem and not the solution.

  3. Harry McAye says:

    Too stupid? Looks like it.

  4. Daisy Walker says:

    We have a problem with SNP members and SNP voters…. they self identify as Independence supporters/campaigners… and certainly that’s the group they like to hang out with….

    but when push comes to shove, when we can’t afford to pussy foot around any longer, and when it’s time to get it done… nah, too much like hard work, too scary, and that Alex Salmond said it himself he’d been imperfect…

    Much more fun to hang out with like minded people and dream about how perfect an Indy Scotland is going to be, with just the right amount of socialism and green policies, yeah, and none of that nasty tory stuff. And it’s all just over the rainbow.

    Meanwhile my house is fucking freezing. We are indeed too fucking stupid.

  5. Stoker says:

    Another great article, Stuart. Thanks!

    “If you want to share facts that you know are true then only share those that are supplied by Business for Scotland, the Scottish Government or Believe in Scotland, or quote those as the source. Otherwise, and I am not exaggerating here, there is about a 90% chance it’s wrong.” Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp 27 July 2022

    The very same Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp who is on record as saying the Indy gun has been fired.

    Kind of makes a mockery of his own claim: “Otherwise, and I am not exaggerating here, there is about a 90% chance it’s wrong.”

    I seen Ian Brotherhood ask on another thread who would write Sturgeon’s biography/memoirs etc. Perhaps GMK, Ian, or maybe Wee Ginger Dug is contemplating adding another property to his portfolio? 😉 Both are now established liars and would fit right in Sturgeon’s pocket. Some would say they’re already there.

  6. Ian says:

    Kudos for the filename in the first image.

  7. Smitty says:

    Why is Toni Guiglibollocks still hanging about? He disposed of Colin Keir who had won the Edinburgh Western seat off the Libs with a 2500 majority in 2021. This was a nasty smearing campaign which split activists. He then went on to throw away the decent majority and lost the seat to Alex Cole H. He deviated away from the manifesto and made the campaign about mental health and LGBQWERTY issues. He cost us a majority then. He then got selected again for Dumbarton in 2021 which Jackie Baillie held with a only a 100 majority and even she expected to lose hit. However Tony loses AGAIN by yet again passing off all of the activists and making the campaign about his sexuality and his mental health. Yet again, he cost SNP a majority! He is now the policy convener and he markets himself as a campaigning expert. Try telling this to him on Twitter and you are instantly blocked.

    Twice he has cost SNP a majority but and the prospect of a referendum but he still hangs around like a bad smell.

  8. Ian says:

    Stoker says:

    Perhaps GMK, Ian, or maybe Wee Ginger Dug is contemplating adding another property to his portfolio?

    The dug won’t have time, he’s currently grifting for a new laptop.

  9. robertkknight says:

    How anyone can…

    a) Believe anything Sturgeon’s rancid SNP says on the subject of Indy, and

    b) Be a member of Sturgeon’s rancid SNP…

    Beats the hell out of me.

  10. And until 2029 Westminster will strip Scotlands assets.

  11. Alison says:

    Every article could, perhaps should, have the first sentence as yesterday’s first sentence: At this point you really just have to laugh.
    Joke parliament. Joke leader. Joke party.

  12. Andy Ellis says:

    Depressing – if unsurprising – reading.

    I see Holyrood Magazine, which is rapidly turning in to the only MSM title which holds the SNP to anything like accountability for its failings, has published 2 pieces slating their performance, one on climate change and one highlighting its internal problems:

    “Nicola Sturgeon wants to be judged on her record – it’s about time we did”,nicola-sturgeon-wants-to-be-judged-on-her-record-its-about-time-we-did

    “Despite positive polling on independence, all is not well within the SNP”,despite-positive-polling-on-independence-all-is-not-well-within-the-snp

  13. Ottomanboi says:

    In east Europe a US resourced proxy war….in Scotland a kill independence by proxy….Murrells inc, snp referendum, lawyers bang, bang, bang, another generation shafted by sticking to rules which Britannia can be expected to waive with alacrity.
    Oh Scotland, stop being such a patsy, sucker, stooge, walk over……

  14. Jock Scot says:

    Was the £107K used to pay back the members who asked for it back. Were they advised that this would lessen the chance for progress/muddy the waters etc?

  15. Grahame Case says:

    What’s going on with Ko-Fi Rev? I’ve got an email saying I’ve paid by PayPal to eBayjimmy@ for Wings Over Scotland but your Ko-fi page has vanished off the face of the earth

  16. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    ““If you want to share facts that you know are true then only share those that are supplied by Business for Scotland, the Scottish Government or Believe in Scotland, or quote those as the source. Otherwise, and I am not exaggerating here, there is about a 90% chance it’s wrong.” Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp 27 July 2022”

    Wowsers. I Googled for those words and only found a report in the Daily Express and a broken Facebook link, but after a lot of fruitless effort scrolling through the FB page for minutes on end I eventually managed to track it down via the image the Express ran.

    This link SHOULD work, although Facebook is such a pile of absolute garbage there are no guarantees:

    He really did say that, and had the nerve to blame Wings for something written and first published by Paul Kavanagh on Wee Ginger Dug. What a wank.

  17. Stoker says:

    “SNP admit to disinformation problem as they aim to introduce new rule for members” Headline on 27 July 2022

    LOL! Just LOL! Somehow hypocrisy just doesn’t cut it.

    Ian says on 18 December 2022 at 12:09 pm:

    “The dug won’t have time, he’s currently grifting for a new laptop.”

    LOL2! FFS! Unreal!

  18. stuart mctavish says:

    @Daisy Walker


    “hang out with like minded people and dream about how perfect an indy Scotland is going to be”

    Huge gap in the online* market for a place like that but Ian Lawson over at Yours for Scotland comes close, on occasion..

    (cheeky emoji)

    *dont know how much they affected by shadow banning but the alba events on you tube look like they can be quite uplifting to folk still able to attend (especially when they focus on what to do rather than who to blame)

  19. Willie says:

    Dear oh dear, but when you lay it all out you truly realise how dissembling the SNP is.

    You can believe nothing that the treacherous Sturgeon and her team say. And people these last eight years have wakened up to her lies, have wakened up to her thoroughly corrupt clique controlled party, and have woken up to the fact that independence is going nowhere.

    It’s a party ready to implode. NuSNP is worse the NuLabour and people know it.

    Thanks for laying it our Rev Stu.

  20. Willie says:

    Talking about lies, dissembling and spin, has anyone got the figures for the new 200 inmate Inverness prison that is being built but is running late.

    Seems that the cost has more than doubled from £66 million to over £140 million. Quite an incredible price increase but they say that the prison’s going to be good.

    I bet it is at a metric of nearly £1,500,000 a prisoner cell. And the Scottish Government say they are short of money, underfunded. Just another procurement control disaster – like the ferries, the slack and lack of control just goes on and on.

  21. Kevin Cargill says:

    I simply cannot understand why seemingly intelligent people cannot see past Sturgeon and continue to have the sort of blind faith in her normally reserved for radical religious sects and death cults. I honestly believe some of them threw so much time and effort at denigrating AS on her behalf that sheer embarrassment at admitting they were wrong and losing face is all that’s holding them back from acknowledging we’ll never have Indy under her dictatorship!

  22. David Hannah says:

    Just as better promised the Vow, and David Cameron delivered English Votes for England’s laws.

    Nicola promises Scotland a referendum on Independence then deletes Scotland as a nation in the Supreme Court.

  23. Dan says:

    You’re most likely right Stu. But if you’re wrong and they do confirm that the next GE will be a pleb to negotiate independence (and not to ask for another ref) will you accept you are pleasantly surprised and get behind the campaign and start slating unionists again and fight for Indy or will you just keep focusing on getting rid of Sturgeon?

  24. Republicofscotland says:

    SNP to publish yet again more papers on independence as SNP MP trougher Mhairi Black spouts drivel here.

    The only thing memorable about Black was her inviting a drag queen into a primary school.

  25. ronald says:

    Dance dance whoever U maybe she/he’s the lord of the dance said she and she’ll lead us all tae naewhere FEKING BASTWARDS .

    Hi Daisy sos to hear your freezing Ive landed lucky My Gas meter froze last Nov they wouldn’t send engineers out because of covid ( meters outside lol ) so im getting free ( for now gas ) .

    I wish all the Auld WINGERS well AND again FEK MURRELLS an the donkey they rode in on .

    Keep the pressure up Stuart something has to give within the ranks of the SNP rank & file .

  26. robertkknight says:

    Dan @1:05

    “fight for Indy or will you just keep focusing on getting rid of Sturgeon?”

    Wake up man, FFS!

    Fighting for Indy and getting rid of Sturgeon are the same bloody thing!

    I’ve a spare pair of reading glasses somewhere. Drop me your address and I’ll post them to you – apparently you have a need!

  27. John Main says:

    That “Free Beer Tomorrow” is making me re-appraise my entire approach to Indy.

    “Show us the free beer” could defo be a clincher.

    Of course, we are all so much more sophisticated these days. In the small print, we will need some options, to include lager, heavy, low alcohol and maybes gluten-free. Throw in carbon neutral to catch the Green vote. Stout used to be popular with the ladies, real and maybes also pretendy.

  28. Stoker says:

    Stuart wrote: “does anyone remember this happening?”

    “Ms Sturgeon vowed to protect the NHS from any future trade deals, promising to put forward a Bill during the next Parliament which would see the health service taken off the table in talks with any foreign nation.”

    “That’s why after the election, SNP MPs will bring forward a new law – an NHS protection Bill – to explicitly protect the NHS in all four countries of the UK from becoming a bargaining chip in future trade deals.”

    I will never forget them (SNP) making that announcement. I left myself absolutely skint and pennyless to put what little i had into creating election material on the strength of that announcement. The bastards made liars out of us all, all those who used and spread that message. To this day they have not so much as lifted a finger to protect our SNHS. Yet Sturgeon’s life of lies and luxury continues uninhibited.

  29. Effijy says:

    Talking about facts and reality-

    I love the Tory proposals for the NHS Strikes and shortages
    Apparently they suggest the people who need hospital beds and are in them
    should be put out to leave extra capacity.

    Redmond asks why they don’t employ more staff and put in more beds.
    Could it be because nurses are leaving in droves and potential recruits don’t want to
    run up massive debts training, having to do the work of 2 people, work long and late shifts and get below inflation pay rises of 15 years.

    Of course he is right they could buy beds, if they had the money.
    All they would need is a ward to put them in, a nurse and a doctor to look after the patient in the bed.

    These facts seem to have gone right over right wing heads.

    Just like the 7,000 armed forces members with medical qualifications will do the work of
    100,000 NHS workers on strike.

    They will bring in Civil Servants too but the only achievements they have in recent times is to support the insanity of Tory policies and have a party every Friday night during Covid lockdown

    More blood on the hands of the Tory Party who have already been the architect of thousands of needless nhs deaths due to staff shortages, lack of training and monitoring of excessive death rates.

    I have no doubt the deaths and shortages don’t really trouble them as these circumstances save them fortunes in pensions, salaries and on-going treatments plus it takes the sale of the nhs that step further on.

  30. ronald says:

    Republicofscotland Black’s another trougher If she doesn’t know why we want Scottish INDEPENDENCE she’ in the wrong job FHer .

  31. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Stoker (11.57) –

    What a quote.

    I hadn’t thought of GMK as biographer. Good shout. Or that dude who did the unauthorised Salmond book?

    Garavelli perhaps?

    Iain MacWhirter?

    None would provide the story everyone wants to hear ie who instigated the conspiracy against Alex Salmond and many of us would like to hear it delivered by Mrs Murrell, under oath.

  32. The Blind Squirrel says:

    Alternative idea to get ball rolling: SNP Westminster MPs resign, 4 each month in 2023, triggering 4 by elections with the winner being returned on a 100% independence ticket. One of the first 4 could be replaced by the SNP leader giving the leader a chance to take part in PM questions. Other independence parties could be involved in the byelections with only one Independence candidate standing. That’s 4 a month all the way to October. It would be a momentum gain, an internationally visible democratic statement and would give us a clear indication of whether or not we are winning.

  33. Ruby says:

    The cross-border impact of this bill with different rules for identifying men and women in Scotland, and in England, should make MSPs think again. Jack McConnell

    Lord Jack playing politics with women’s rights!

    As long as you have rules other than by biology to identifying men and women there will be problems.

    No sex changes.

    Keep signing

    Why would sex offenders cross the border? They can put on a dress in England and hey presto he is a she and be free to enter into women’s spaces. No need for GRC.

    Take Eddie Izzard for example.

    Not saying Eddie Izzard is a sex offender just that he is a man and is treated as a woman.

  34. ronald says:

    Salvo now need to come into the fray big time and Promote the Claim of Right ( in the Court of Sessions )& remove the obstacles ( Sturgeon ) and thereafter all the way to the UN .Even Alex Salmond couldn’t object to this move .

    I was never one for employing UDI but desperate times need desperate measures .

  35. Ruby says:

    Mhairi Black says SNP must explain why they want Scottish independence

    That could be tricky it would involve more lies.

  36. Andy Ellis says:

    @ ronald anderson

    How is it you think Salvo are going to remove obstacles like Sturgeon exactly? Who in the UN are they supposed to go to and on what basis? I don’t know whether Alex Salmond would object and I suspect you don’t either.

    I certainly doubt he’s in favour of UDI….

  37. stuart mctavish says:

    Willie @12:59

    Helps explain excessive legislation either way, ie :

    (a) more legislation = more prisoners = more prison cells @ £1.5M each

    or even

    (b) more prison cells @1.5M each = more legislation required = more prison cells @1.5M each + PI insurance

  38. James Che says:

    That Scots retain their own laws as part of the articles of the Treaty of Union acts.

    We must remember that the Scottish government is under Westminsters legislation of a devolved government in Scotland .

    The gender issue cannot be Scots law within that context.

  39. Tinto Chiel says:

    You’re being very harsh, Stu. It’s a well-known fact that cast iron rusts very quickly in Scottish conditions 🙂 .

    Never mind: I’m sure, once Paul K gets his new laptop, that he will tell us a) the Tories are nasty and (b) we will shortly be striding over the broad, sun-lit uplands of independence behind the Great Leader.

    Old Robert Peffers used to say to critics of the SNP that members could effect change themselves, starting at local branch level, but those days are long gone.

  40. Lorna Campbell says:

    republicofscotland: yes, that – actually introducing the drag queen, plus her statement that independence was not a priority for her, plus the podcast she made, sniggering and making derogatory remarks about women who opposed the GRA reform and the drag queen debacle.

    This is the new depute at Westminster. She ranks alongside Alyn Smith, John Nicholson and all the other gender benders whose delusion far outweighs their intelligence. I will be taking note of all those who vote for the GRA Reform Bill and circulating them in hopes that they might be deselected come the GE.

    We can be fairly sure that they will be all the Sturgeon cohort because they are the same people who have deliberately stymied independence all these years in favour of their delusions. I also hope that the Rev will publish the names on Wings, along with the Labour and Lib Dem names, so that Scotland’s women are under no illusion about the people who are asking for their vote.

  41. ronald says:

    Dan 1.05 Stuart Campbell like many of us INDEPENDENISTAS gave Sturgeon/SNP plenty of our time/support and Money to fight for our INDEPENDENCE but failure after failure was our reward .

    Do I need to remind U why the SNP were instituted in 1934 & those reasons are more imperative today than they’ve ever been.

    History wont be kind to Sturgeon/SNP in the way she’s pursued our INDEPENDENCE at a time Westminster was on the ropes Covid PPE payments/Brexit/And her allowing the crown estates to put a cap on the bidding for exploration licence £700 million for something worth Billions .

    Why don’t U join the Two Davy’s blog n Kavanagh where you’ll be better received .

  42. James Che says:

    Pre-union Scots law was to be retained by Scotland.

    28th November 1707.

    House of lords. Westminster parliament.

    A Bill on the 28th.

    That the laws relating to high treason be the same throughout the whole kingdom, Scots law on treason was repealed/ made void before the ink on the Treaty of union dried by Westminster parliament.

    A bill bought before the house, That the Bank of England should continue as a corporation and funding should continue between the exchecquer/ treasury as prior to the treaty of the union, it is still recognised as the Bank of England today.

  43. Luigi says:

    Sigh. Here we go again. Since 2015, it’s been “Hold!, Hold!”, alternating with “Wheesht!” with the occasional “Squirrel!” added to the mix for good measure. If yer committed to fighting for Scottish independence don’t expect any help from the SNP. What a disappointment. What a betrayal.

  44. Lorna Campbell says:

    James Che: the GRA 2004 is a reserved matter. It was a Westminster Act which applies to the whole of the UK. You are right that Holyrood is creating UK law because Sturgeon must know that people south of the border will come north for a GRC then head back and try to force the UK government’s hand. In normal circumstances, I would say that the UK government would challenge in court, but this might suit them, so that they can blame Scotland while not having to go through hoops themselves, but have it introduced in England anyway. I believe this is what the woman-facers are hoping for. Sturgeon could see it as a direct challenge to Westminster, but, then, the SNP will have to shout about interference from Westminster and demand support from Scots on mass delusion. It will be a hard sell, and women will never forgive the SNP. If SNP men support her stance, they will alienate women forever and lose their vote. Ergo, no independence. I kept on saying that we needed to get this bilge removed first before independence, but few would listen, claiming that it could be dealt with after independence. Ay, right!

  45. Luigi says:

    I do believe the people will find another way. It’s just sad that so many years have to be wasted in the meantime. What a wasted opportunity.

  46. ronald says:

    Tinto Chiel Well one things for certain PK wont be receiving any monies from Wings over Scotland stall or any monies from my pocket .

  47. John Main says:

    @Ottomanboi 12:24

    Timothy Garton Ash has a good article on the Guardian Online about the rights and wrongs of the war. Easy enough to find if you are interested.

    As he writes, if England decided to adopt the same playbook and invade India, because they used to be part of the empire, they are not a “real” country, and many Indians already speak English and practice parliamentary democracy, nobody would be unclear on the rights and wrongs.

    Certainly not you.

    Nor would you be sniffily writing off India as a dumb proxy.

  48. Ruby says:

    Mhairi Black says SNP must explain why they want Scottish independence

    We want Scottish independence say the Westminster MPs because it’s the only way we know of losing weight. The free food at Westminster is just too tempting.

    Have you seen us lately we resemble the dance group ‘The Roly Polys’ only not as agile and none of us can tap dance for shit.

    Remember ‘The Roly Polys’?

  49. James Che says:

    Devolved government in Scotland is under the legislation of Westminster’s internal domestic law, any item of law being changed in Scotland within the devolved government is not Scots law,

    The SNP and civil servants work for and under and within the confines of Westminster legislation, they swear an oath to the Crown which rest within Westminster parliament upon entry to the devolved branch government,

    Scotland has not had a parliament to pass Scots law since 1707.

  50. auld highlander says:

    If I was an snp mp I would be very worried about loosing my fat salary and expenses plus all the perks come the next uk election because they are not getting my vote and if Alba do not have a candidate standing then I will just won’t vote.

  51. James Che says:

    Lorna Campbell.

    What the do in any capacity
    It is smoke and mirrors for to fool the Scots,

    The devolved government is legislated by the Westminster government.

    It is not a Scottish parliament in anything but place name.

  52. John Main says:


    If you want to talk about facts.

    A lot of the problems in the NHS are due to the policy of wrecking the economy, and the NHS, to “save us all” from the Chinese Flu.

    A policy that was wildly popular at the time, not least on here.

    A policy that some experts pointed out at the time would over the long term likely kill more people than it saved.

    Their predictions were wildly unpopular at the time, not least on here.

    Vast sums of money were squandered, sure, some on PPE and hopeless IT systems, some on paying people to sit at home for a year, doing nowt.

    A fiscal reckoning was always a dead cert. And now it has arrived.

  53. crazycat says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood at 1.18

    Or that dude who did the unauthorised Salmond book?

    David Torrance; he’s already produced this :
    so I’m sure he could update it.

  54. stuart mctavish says:

    @blind squirrel

    Excellent suggestion.

    Only thing to be determined would be whether Grady, Ferrier, Hanvey & McAskill were first 4 or last 4.

    If among the first group there might even be scope to get Alex Salmond back alongside Nicola (at WM this time) before the special indy conference in March..

  55. akenaton says:

    As I’ve been saying on other media for years “Independence at any price” does not fly. The Murrell’s and the people who support them are not worth pissing on and are making our once proud old country a laughing stock, as well as invalidating women’s sex based rights and endangering the lives and well being of our children.
    The problem lies in separating, in the public perception, the need to eradicate the virus without being accused of killing the patient. Personally, I could never under any circumstances vote yes in a referendum while this cabal are in power in Holyrood.

    I despair at the political ignorance of our electorate who still seem to be steeped in sectarianism, a flawed view of our history, misandry and the old staple, Anti English Sentiment.

  56. Merganser says:

    Her Majesty Mimi Sturgeon, by the grace of Charles III, de facto Queen of Scotland, was admiring the presents she had bought for her favourites. A tartan suit (jacket and mini-skirt) for Angus; a white blouse and black leather pencil skirt for Joanna Swinney.

    Her plans were coming to fruition. How she hated men. She was determined to do away with them. Self ID was merely the first step in the process. Next it would become compulsory. Those who resisted would be put in the camps. She knew one in particular who would resist, and she would achieve her goal of getting him locked away.

    She put the final touches to the Christmas menu, adding a ‘d’ to the smoked salmon, and adding stuffed cherry to the list of petit fours.

    Further north, a gallant old fighter toyed with the idea of caviar and roast sturgeon, but knew that for the time being he would have to settle for an Arbroath Smokie.

    Meanwhile, down south, an impish character sharpened his nib and dipped it in the bottle of truth before writing his next article.

    He knew how much depended on him to keep the road to independence honest, and to expose the charlatans. Such a heavy burden for one person. But what a prize! Not least preventing us from being exposed to Angus in his mini-skirt.

  57. Josef Ó Luain says:

    Those who suggest that Scots are too stupid, and by inference, amongst all of the the peoples in the world, somehow incapable of thinking and running their own affairs should consider the fact that no coloniser can hold a colony, indefinitely, that is filled with confident people. That would be a contradiction-of-possibilities! Colonization, to be successful, must first of all convince the native population that they are, by comparison with the coloniser, not intellectually fit to run their own affairs. And, that’s not even the half-of-it. If you don’t know what to be colonised actually means, it’s unlikely you’ll ever be in a position to liberate yourself.

  58. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @crazycat (2.19) –



  59. ScotsRenewables says:

    OT: I posted this on the Invalid Women thread, but thought I would post it again here as that post has sunk down the screen a fair way now:

    The question of whether transwomen match male or female patterns of criminality is specifically addressed by the 2020 FOI referenced by Fair Play For Women (who have submitted evidence to the Committee). This is first time there has been official data to compare the rate of sex offending in 3 different groups. Men vs women vs transwomen.

    MOJ stats show 76 of the 129 male-born prisoners identifying as transgender (not counting any with GRCs) have at least 1 conviction of sexual offence. This includes 36 convictions for rape and 10 for attempted rape. These are clearly male type crimes (rape is defined as penetration with a penis).

    Comparisons of official MOJ statistics from March / April 2019 (most recent official count of transgender prisoners):

    76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%

    125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3%

    13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison = 16.8%

    From: Written evidence submitted by Professor Rosa Freedman, Professor Kathleen Stock and Professor Alice Sullivan [GRA2021] – Evidence and Data on Trans Women’s Offending Rates

  60. Chas says:

    Lots of people in agreement that the SNP is not what it claims to be.

    However, if Independence is achieved any time soon, say in 10 years time, there will need to be a Government in place to do the ‘governy things’ we would expect any competent Government to do.

    Who exactly would form this Government? Do you think the current SNP MSP’s and MP’s would simply walk away ‘joab done’. Or do you think the troughers would strive to ensure the gravy train continues?

    I list below the various voting factions currently in place in Scotland, which is still a Socialist leaning country-

    1) Approx 50% of Scots have no real interest in politics other than how it affects what is in their wallets
    2) Approx 20% are mildly interested but again their wallets are uppermost in their thoughts
    3) Approx 10% are politically active
    4) Approx 20% have no interest whatsoever and can’t even be arsed to vote as they view all Politicians and Parties as the same.

    I find myself in category 2) and leaning more towards 4) as time goes by. Nobody is doing anything to change my mind otherwise.

    Nothing will change in Scotland until the likes of the Murrell’s
    disappear. Nobody other than the approx 1% of Scots who regularly read Wings are in agreement.

    Depressing years lie ahead for all of us unless of course, you are an SNP politician (I use the word politician loosely).

  61. Republicofscotland says:

    As public services teeter on collapse, and our NHS struggles to cope, and the cost of living in the union crisis badly affects Scots, the Judas Sturgeon has her priorities to tweet about.

  62. Kcor says:

    It is crystal clear that independence is not in the personal interests of the biggest betrayer in Scottish history and her equally corrupt MPs and MSPs.

    Genuine independence supporters who continue to vote for the fraudulent SNP are the dumbest people on earth, IMHO.

  63. James Che says:

    Ronald Anderson,

    Queen Anne at the time of the union was queen of Scots, not Scotland, see: claim of right.

    The territory of Scotland did not belong to the Queen.
    Nor does it belong to any monarch since, Therefore Crown estates are illegal in Scotland,

    All monarchs in Scotland are by consent and choice of the sovereign Scots.
    Hence prince Charles mentioning the Claim of right recently in the media outlets.

  64. Dan says:


    wake up. lol. read the f-ing question!!

    Trying to get rid of Sturgeon if there is definitely a plebiscite election coming up is not a great idea. Maybe it’s a good idea now. Maybe it’s a good idea after independence. But IF it is confirmed that it is happening, soon – then will he shift his focus to winning independence and not trying to defeat Sturgeon.

    If she does actually start a campaign and re-affirms the promise of a pleb election (which I genuinely don’t think she well) but if she does. We have to just get on with convincing people to vote YES and leave this shit for a while.

    I don’t think Stu will though. He puts getting rid of Sturgeon OVER independence unless he says otherwise.

  65. Dan says:

    @ Republicofscotland 3:05 pm

    That she / her has time to watch (and also thinks it appropriate to tweet about) fucking Strictly with everything else that is going on says it all about her commitment to improving Scotland’s predicament.
    Absolutely disgraceful imo.

    And for the record the other Dan posting isn’t me.

  66. Cath says:

    I’m starting to think the SNP has always been pretty much under the control of Westminster. They lost control of it when Salmond took over and were given a real shock in 2014 – they had to really lie and cheat to squeak a win. It is now firmly back under their control, with Sturgeon, Wishart, Robertson, Swinney et all being the absolute worst people for the independence movement. Until those who keep voting for this SNP – led by those who effectively destroyed Salmond and the party & movement he built – Scotland will only ever be going backwards.

  67. robertkknight says:


    “If she does actually start a campaign and re-affirms the promise…”

    Deluded. Bless…

    Sturgeon’s rancid SNP can’t afford Scotland becoming independent.

    If the world turns out to be flat and they do campaign for Indy, they’ll f**k it up deliberately, just like the SC case.

    Everything Sturgeon’s rancid SNP touches turns to shit. There’ll be no Indy whilst Sturgeon is in place.

  68. Robert Hughes says:

    ” I don’t think Stu will though. He puts getting rid of Sturgeon OVER independence unless he says otherwise. ”

    Is this * oor * Dan the resourceful Man speaking , or a similarly named individual ?

    As Robert Knight says ….. getting rid of Sturgeon is absolutely indispensable if Independence is not only to be realised , but even the possibility not destroyed .

    Even if they declare the next G.E a Plebiscite on Independence , where have they said * winning * it on that understanding would lead to them doing anything other using it to * demand * a Referendum ? Maybe I missed that bit ?

  69. Astonished says:

    Dan @1.05pm “will you accept you are pleasantly surprised and get behind the campaign and start slating unionists again and fight for Indy ”

    If there is a plebiscite, and it is a huge ‘if’, I am sure that Stuart will fight for indy.

    However I am much more interested in what you are going to do Dan, if there isn’t a plebiscite ?

    Continue your membership ?

    Keep taking the carrots?

    Continue donating to the nuSNP?

    Please enlighten me.

    And finally ‘Judas Sturgeon’ strikes me as apposite.

  70. Dan says:


    Starting to think this place is just bots. hahahah. I’m not deluded. I think there is a 0.1% chance she will keep her promise, but anything can happen. But let’s just say, hypothetically she does re-affirm the pleb election. Will you personally support it?

    nobody here can answer a simple question…

  71. Robert Hughes says:

    ” And for the record the other Dan posting isn’t me. ”

    Didn’t see this before posting my comment , above , Dan ie The Real Dan 🙂

  72. ronald says:

    James Che I think U missed my point ( why do the Snp have a committee in Holyrood Crown estates When were a Sovereign People)

  73. robertkknight says:



    There’ll be no Indy with her in charge – plebiscite GE, Referendum or magic Xmas cracker.

    So no, I’ll not support anything with her name on it, except her letter of resignation.

  74. James Che says:

    Joseph Luian,

    Colonisation can be a slow gradual process and as such is at first unidentifiable. Especially when it is supposed to be within a international treaty of voluntary parties.

    However when the treaty itself is colonised and the information of those small changes at first take place behind closed doors the colonisation is not always as evident display.
    It is a slow creeping of losing ones rights as a nation under a treaty,

    I think a good example of information within the treaty between Scotlands position and Englands Westminster parliament has been that witnessed of a withheld hidden report on oil, the MacCrone report.

    Many instances such as the one mentioned above have taken place,
    If a colonised treaty keeps the other half of a equal voluntary treaty in the dark, a Country such as Scotland takes many more years to recognise it is or has been colonised,

    For what is deliberately hidden by the potential coloniser is at first not obvious to the colonised.

    For Scotland some of this information is recently new, with the release of FOI.

    For instance i myself only discovered two weeks prior that in Westminster parliament debates and proceedings that the question arose in the Law Revision Scotland Acts regarding Article XX11, that the Westminster parliament had not settled on a legal status of wether there actually is a Treaty of Union as both parliaments no longer exist,

    It goes without saying the Colonising theory was that there was, but the Scottish parliament was cancelled due to the treaty,

    Theory and fact seem to have departed from legal status in favour with the colonisers mindset.

    But how many Scots were ever informed that the parliament in England has its doubts that there is a treaty of Union, not many I bet.

  75. George Ferguson says:

    @Dan 3:50pm
    I am with Stu on this one. I place getting rid of Sturgeon before Independence because I care about the women in my life. If there is a pleb election I will vote for any party other than the SNP and Greens, that supports Independence. So Alba or anybody. And that has been my stance since 2015 when I left the SNP. I told them she is a wrong un. The 21st of December will be the end of the SNP as a political force if GRR goes through.

  76. Cath says:

    I’ll answer Dan: if it is a genuine plebiscite, ie if it uses the entire Yes movement to ensure not only an SNP win but over 50% by allowing Alba, Greens, socialists and anyone else who wants to stand to get out voters who otherwise wouldn’t bother. Or if it’s a “Yes Scotland”And if we are all working together. And if there is a well thought out plan for what happens if we win, eg a negotiating team ready to go which includes all the best brains in the Indy movement and experts, not a bunch of numpties from the SNP NEC, then yes. I will 100% be for that and campaigning and voting for independence, as I did in 2014. If all it actually amounts to is “vote SNP for another mandate they can’t ignore this time cos we’ve used the word plebiscite, and if you dare vote Alba or against the SNP you’re a yoon”, then no. I won’t be voting for another trougher to sit for another 5 years doing nothing. Not will I trust this SNP not to actively work with the U.K. and throw such an election. They didn’t get 50%+ even in 2015, with the entire movement energised and behind them. They sure as hell won’t get it in 2024.

    So is it a real plebiscite or another wrecking ball designed to keep the gravy train running while further harming independence? I’d love to be surprised by the answer: I don’t expect to be.

  77. Dan says:

    robertkknight got it! I’m pretty sure the majority on here are the same. Including Stu.

    So if there is a confirmed plebescite GE (as much as that’s a huge long shot) you won’t support it because Sturgeon is in charge and she’ll mess it up.

    Nice one.

    I’ll leave you fools to fight amongst yourselves then.

  78. robertkknight says:


    Thanks. Nice of you to drop by. Keep gnawing on those carrots.

  79. Shug says:

    I am afraid we have to assume Sturgeon is compromised and her objective now is to put Scotland in the place of being accepted as part of a unitary state and not part if a union.
    Any historical or legal argument can be set aside by accepted use and practice and control of the courts by London.
    Once in such a position all referenda can be controlled by london and ignored.
    Therefore Nicola’s new task is to make any plebisitary a Westminster one with 50 percent of seats and votes with a super majority required for change it even just to allow Westminster to consider allowing a referendum at som we point.
    The only thing that can stop this now is for MPs and msps to dump her and they need to do it quick and clean

  80. Dan says:


    I’m kinda with you but somewhere in between that and a slightly more forgiving approach.

    If it’s said ‘this is for a mandate’ then NO that’s not good enough for me. I won’t vote for SNP. If it’s for ‘pressure’ or for ‘another ref’ NO, that won’t fly with me.

    However if it is definitely for a direct negotiation of independence (again, I don’t believe it will be) but if it is. I’ll vote for no matter what.

    Even if they did the absolute shitty thing of saying it has to be SNP (or SNP/Greens) which tbh makes no sense because how could you decide that Alba etc. is not a pro indy vote, it makes no sense and why would you scupper the chances.

    I think what they’ll do (if it happened) is say all votes for pro-indy parties are fine but strongly encourage SNP and say it’s the ‘safest way’ which is arguably true from Westminsters perspective.

    Either way. I would be pissed off but I’d vote SNP. Even if they don’t have a post-indy plan. Even if they don’t have a top-negotiating team with a broad array of opinions. I’d simply get independence and then never vote for them again and encourage others not too.

    We’d have a bunch of arseholes in power in that outcome, but it’d be our arseholes that we can get rid of easier and we would have the right to choose our future parties who govern us.

    That’s the point I’m getting at. I’m still indy at all costs. Even if we end up in a shit position from negotiations, I just want out. End of discussion.

  81. James Che says:

    Ronald Anderson.

    Sorry Ronald, I did miss that point, my apologise for misconstruing what you wrote,

    You are correct, there should be no Crown estates in Scotland for the SNP to hold a Committee on,

    The people of Scotland are Sovereign over the Crown, but many still are doubting this information even although prince Charles mentioned it in the main stream media after Queen Elizabeth the first of Scotland, and Queen Elizabeth the second of England, passed away this year,

  82. Dan says:

    *vote for IT no matter what. That should say.

  83. robertkknight says:


    “That’s the point I’m getting at. I’m still indy at all costs”

    I was too, once…

    But not now. Not having seen the sort of Woke utopia Sturgeon and her biology denying zealots are turning Scotland into.

    Sturgeon gone, then Indy’s back on.

    It’s that simple.

    Any attempt by Her to promote Indy is to buy time and votes, nothing more.

  84. James Che says:

    Ronald Anderson,

    Correction to my above,

    Queen Elizabeth the first of Scots ( not Scotland) and Queen Elizabeth of England.

  85. ronald says:

    Dan 4.17 Seems thats what U had hoped for getting Wingers arguing but U look your all alone , we’ve been through aw this Piss before .

  86. Dan says:

    that’s a shame but thanks for being truthful robertkknight

    Not sure how the SNP’s work agenda is worse than the Tories though but fair enough. I suspect many followers here are the same as you and I suspect Stu is the same too, but he’ll never admit it!

    Anyone else here have this view?

    What’s more important?

    Indy at all cost?
    Sturgeon/SNP out at all cost?

  87. Dan says:

    If you could only choose ONE to happen in the near future.

  88. Dan says:

    Once Stu admits this I’ll spend some more time trolling the SNP into admitting they’re gonna call off the pleb. lol

  89. George Ferguson says:

    @Dan 4:02pm
    We knew that! The real Dan has a sense of humour.

  90. robertkknight says:


    Personally, irrespective of what the SNP propose and whatever constitutional hoops they want us to jump through, I simply do not see a successful outcome, Indy, with her in post.

    My priority therefore is for her to be gone.

    Otherwise, we’ll be marched up the hill just to be marched back down, again…

  91. Dan says:

    I’m not trying to get people to argue, just not been here in ages, just wondering where folks heads are at and trying to see where folks priorities are. pro indy or anti snp it’s simple really. It’s kinda hard to find data without asking. But mostly would like Stu to admit his position. I think he is of the same position as robertkknight and puts getting rid of sturgeon above indy IF it came to it. I understand most of you think getting rid of Sturgeon is the way to get indy, and that may be true. But I just think if the pleb is confirmed then that would be a strategic error to stay on that path right now.

  92. Dan says:

    and by not here, I mean not reading the comments. I’ve read quite most articles tbf and just miss old Stu but I fear he’ll never be back whilst Sturgeon is in power.

  93. Cath says:

    Either way. I would be pissed off but I’d vote SNP. Even if they don’t have a post-indy plan. Even if they don’t have a top-negotiating team with a broad array of opinions. I’d simply get independence and then never vote for them again and encourage others not too.

    We’d have a bunch of arseholes in power in that outcome, but it’d be our arseholes that we can get rid of easier and we would have the right to choose our future parties who govern

    That would be idiotic. Have you any idea how critical the negotiation phase will be? It is imperative Scotland he the best people, ones we can trust, in place the moment we begin negotiations. It’s not enough to say “We can vote out the numpties post independence” if we have a load of neoliberals who will sell us out as part of that negotiation. Or will sell out independence itself again if they won.

    As long as the SNP is run by people we cannot trust, who have betrayed the best the movement had, and as long as they’re still demanding total control, frankly independence isn’t even attractive. That’s why I put in all those “ifs”. IF the Indy movements real leaders (and some may be leading the SNP) were really smart, what they’d do is use things like the Salmond stitch up (utter betrayal) and the trans issue (blind loyalty without critical thinking) to find out who the best people to negotiate Indy are and who should be allowed nowhere near setting up our new state. I have a tiny amount of optimism that maybe, just maybe, they were that smart and there will be a genuine plebiscite using the best people and sidelining the worst. If that doesn’t happen and it’s the betrayers and numpties demanding our support…no.

  94. handclapping says:

    I hope you didn’t spend money getting that “1945” poster; I suspect it may be a forgery!

  95. red sunset says:

    @ Dan 3.50pm

    You said “We have to just get on with convincing people to vote YES and leave this shit for a while.”

    But that’s the big problem, Dan. The question would not call for a YES vote. The question would call for an SNP vote. That’s a totally different vote.

    As Cath says above, a YES vote would include other YESSERS. A plebiscitary election for the SNP would be no different to what most of us have been doing for the last 8 years.

  96. James Che says:


    Are you aware the the Westminster parliament debates and proceedings House of Lords privileges committee held a debate over Law revision Scotland Acts, article XX11 of the treaty of the union, their own doubts as to wether there is a treaty of union?

  97. Dan says:

    red sunset – it wouldn’t though.

    If they say it’s a plebiscite election and we will negotiate independence with Westminster straight away if we get 50%+1 SNP. That’s different from what we had before, because before they just promised a referendum which they couldn’t deliver.

    Perhaps they will be too weak to negotiate and back out of a YES result but I’m willing to take that risk, but if 50%+ actually votes YES (i.e. if SNP == YES) then it’s pretty hard to deny the result.

    But of course this would be terrible tactically and surely they’re not THIS dumb! I’d vote for it this one time and then not vote for them ever again, win or lose for making such a terrible decision.

    And to be clear if it’s not a clear straight to negotiations, they don’t have my vote.

    I dislike the SNP now after voting for them all my life. They’ve made some terrible decisions but the Tories are killing people and are 100x worse.

    My dream ballot would look like this. Nice and simple.


  98. Dan says:

    lol. Forgot the libdems. Easily done

  99. Dan says:

    @Cath well for the sake of independence, let’s hope the SNP invite others to the table. It’s of course my personal choice even if I would grudgingly accept otherwise.

  100. Doug says:

    It’s like the old story of the boy [or person of whatever sex they think they are] shouting Wolf! When/if Sturgeon actually starts an independence campaign nobody will believe her.

    Her innate self-pity and vindictiveness doesn’t help matters. Deliberate or not her obfuscation has resulted in damaging the cause.

    I’m sure there must be some left in the SNP who put independence first but they seem to be stuck in the poor bloody infantry being led by a gutless unimaginative officer class.

    We can only keep criticising her delaying tactics and hopefully one day she, or more importantly her acolytes, will see and rectify the damage she is doing. Making way for someone who actually wants independence would be a good start.

    Either way time is running out. If independence is lost through her political cowardice an ineptitude she will never be forgiven, and rightly so.

    Keep the pressure on her.

  101. Andy Ellis says:

    @ Dan

    Independence isn’t going to happen in any reasonable timescale with Sturgeon, or indeed with anyone in her image or from her current cabal, in charge of the SNP. The movement as a whole either has to hope:

    a) the SNP membership stages a palace coup and gets rid of Sturgeon and her supporters, which appears unlikely any time soon; or

    b) Sturgeon and her government fall due to some crisis, legal case or external deus ex machina, which is possible but not worth betting the farm on; or

    c) in the next available elections the SNP get such a fright that they suddenly grow a pair and do something useful to precipitate plebiscitary elections; or

    d) the SNP bimbles along as it has been doing, but the Yes movement somehow manages to persuade enough people that IT should be in charge, not the SNP, and it manages to translate improving pro-indy polling in to a convincing majority at a plebiscitary election at which all votes for ANY pro indy parties are deemed to count toward a plebiscitary majority; or

    e) unicorns, fairies, money trees, cunning plans, UDI, de-colonisation, UN peace keepers, Conventions of the Estates, indy via petition. *yawns*

  102. Dan says:

    I was just thinking about how it’s the boy who cried wolf. The thing is – there really was a wolf eventually.

    There is an outside chance the pleb announcement was real and will happen at some point, it’s just a shame so many are demotivated due to disbelief. I feel like there was so many failed starting guns. It’s hard to get motivated. But I’m going to keep an open mind until after the conference, so I can probably be re-dissappointed then. Rather than preempting anything.

    Even Stu initially admitted he was surprised the pleb announcement happened. And let’s not forget a big part of this was due to pressure from him and Alba.

  103. Dan says:

    So hopefully most can put the shit show behind them if we are ever given a real opportunity.

  104. Tommo says:

    Interesting posts albeit an element of deja-vu.
    Whatever one’s view of Mr and Mrs Murrell and their cabal I don’t think stupidity is an allegation that can be levelled at them-
    The referral to the Supreme Court was a clever way of getting around the fact that the legal position was clear and the Scottish Assembly submissions were-in technical legal terms- a steaming pile of bat guano. I’m surprised the SC entertained the thing when even Mrs Murrell’s Lord Advocate wouldn’t give it the nod. However the submission allowed the impression that the thing was being stamped down upon the ‘English Courts’-
    Then of course we have the potential single-issue ‘de facto referendum’ vote. Quite neat-after all what else would the SNP stand on ? Sexual probity ? Accountability ? Women’s rights ? Transparency ? Financial management ? Their record in relation to the public services ? The de facto thing will motivate quite enough disaffected people to return most if not all the current MSPs.What’s not to like ?

  105. Andy Ellis says:


    Clever would have been putting the question of legality to bed in 2015, NOT waiting until 2022.

    Clever would have been not throwing a grenade at the broad church movement that existed in 2014 and prioritising hobby horse issues like gender-woo and saving little Englanders from themselves by trying to overturn or ameliorate brexit.

    Clever would have been trying to ensure you held the balance of power in Westminster so you could hold a gun to the Tory parties head, not throwing away 21 MPs in 2017 due to vacillation and failing to initiate a campaign.

    A clever party and politician would have been in a position to turn the screws on the British nationalist elites at their lowest ebb during the brexit negotiations debacle, not tilting at windmills which produced SFA, not even a Northern Ireland style deal for Scotland.

  106. George Ferguson says:

    @Andy Ellis 5:28pm
    You are correct in your first point which is why I thank the Scotsman FOI to determine the legality. The Scottish ICO came to the the right decision on behalf of The Scotsman. It took many years. The net is closing on Sturgeon.

  107. Ruby says:

    Dan says:
    18 December, 2022 at 5:13 pm

    So hopefully most can put the shit show behind them if we are ever given a real opportunity.

    That depends what you mean by a real opportunity.

    Keep signing:

  108. Wilson McBride says:

    The SNP Cult membership are cloned straight from Pete Wishart, with their “Albist” crap.

    They will just not listen to reason.

    And they don’t care if they don’t have a say in the decision making.

    Their motto:-


  109. Dan says:

    Ruby I’ll say it one more time.

    I’m going to count a ‘real opportunity’ as the confirming the plebiscite will still go ahead. It will need to be confirmed that it’s definitely a direct negotiation for indy if we win (not some watered down mandate shite) and above that I need it to be talked about often by a majority of the SNP members for me to believe it. We can’t have one member in the party saying one thing and others saying another.

    We need a consistent message. If YES majority happens we go straight to negotiating with Westminster. Nothing less is an opertunity.

  110. Dan says:

    Not sure if you’re talking to me Wilson McBride.

    Not sure who Pete Wishart is but I’ve heard the name. Dunno what Albist means.

    I don’t trust Nicola. So if you are talking to me. Try reading my posts.

  111. George Ferguson says:

    Trying to comment on Wings during a World Cup final is not easy. But a lot less than Bet365 who told me that my waiting time when it was 2 all for a cash oot value was 43 minutes. My contribution to wings this month is already off my account. I am really happy about that. Magnificent value for money including the holiday boy. Great cartoons.

  112. Merganser says:

    Andy Ellis @5.28

    Hooray! I agree with you.

    After 5 days in hospital and a few days at home I have now tested positive for the dreaded C.o. v.i.D. Whether I survive after 3 heart attacks remains to be seen, so nice to go out on a note of agreement. Even nicer if I do survive to argue with you again.

    If I tell you a covid joke now do you think you will get it in a week’s time? Boom boom.

  113. Ruby says:

    Dan says:
    18 December, 2022 at 4:17 pm

    So if there is a confirmed plebescite GE (as much as that’s a huge long shot) you won’t support it because Sturgeon is in charge and she’ll mess it up.

    I’m not getting this Dan perhaps you can explain.
    How can a plebiscite GE be any different from a normal GE?

    How can Sturgeon be in charge of a GE surely she is just in charge of the SNP.

  114. Ruby says:

    Dan says:
    18 December, 2022 at 6:08 pm

    Ruby I’ll say it one more time.

    We need a consistent message. If YES majority happens we go straight to negotiating with Westminster. Nothing less is an opertunity.

    Over the past eight years she hasn’t even been able to negotiate a S30 from Westminster how is she going to negotiate Scottish Independence?

    Is this one of the ‘cunning plans’ Andy Ellis is always talking about?

  115. Wilson McBride says:


    A wee bit of history made at world cup when Argentina won it.

    The Argentine player MacAllister’s family originally came from Fife in the 1800s.

    Moved to Dublin and then onto Argentina.

    So Fife should be proud one of their offspring picked up a World Cup winners medal today.

  116. John Main says:


    There is a school of thought on here that believes NS single handedly controls the party, the government, the MSPs, the MPs, the civil servants, etc.

    Believing that, the conclusion is that if NS was to fall, everything would change for the better.

    I wonder. That level of control over independent, self-willed opportunists seems unlikely.

    But take it at face value. If true, and by sheer force of personality and conviction (lacking firing squads and gulags) NS is able to hold all of these people in the palm of her hand, not to mention a good majority of the electorate, then arguably NS is the finest politician and leader we Scots have ever had.

    I don’t believe it myself. My own view is that NS is simply accompanying our politicos on a journey and in a direction and at a gradualist pace they want. I can think of maybes 3 who dissented, they are now in Alba.

    Everybody else is happy enough not to rock the boat. Remove NS and nothing much will change.

    So, to answer your question at 5:05. If NS promises to hold the pleb election, and on getting the majority move immediately to negotiations, with a defined end date, then we should go for it. My reading of the situation is that she will have the party united with her.

    It’s real politik to accept the only option on offer.

  117. George Ferguson says:

    @John Main 6:26pm
    A leader is very important. Did you watch the World Cup Final? A lesson in a leader trying to change the direction of travel. 2 subs before half time. In the end it didn’t work. But a change was there for all reasonable people to observe. I wrote sometime ago that a wayward CEO takes 8 years to recover from defunct operations. I think that it will longer than that to recover from Sturgeon.

  118. Dan says:

    I guess my wording isn’t great Ruby.

    What I mean is.

    If the general election is confirmed to be a plebiscite election – which means a one issue manifesto/campaign (which differs from previous, because that was promising a referendum AND some other things as far as I recall and was more about a mandate). Sturgeon even used the words de-facto as far as I recall.

    Which SHOULD mean if YES parties or SNP (depending on proposed franchise) get over 50% + 1 of the votes they will go straight to negotiating our independence with Westminster.

    That was the promise. Obviously many promises have already been broken.

    So for me to believe their really is a wolf this time I need to hear it in plain English after the conference. If we win, we will go straight to negotiating independence and I also want it to be pretty consistently talked about afterwards from the majority of the SNP too. i.e. I don’t want the problem we have right now where she’s said this only once and all of her allies say otherwise.

    It’s a big ask (but shouldn’t be) and likely won’t happen, but if it does. I’ll be getting behind it, whether it’s SNP only to get over 50% or all parties or some sort of joint party. I know my preference, but as long as the rest of the language is right I’ll vote for it.

    Anything else, is as you say, identical to what we had before.

  119. Ruby says:

    John Main says:
    18 December, 2022 at 6:26 pm

    Everybody else is happy enough not to rock the boat. Remove NS and nothing much will change.

    So, to answer your question at 5:05. If NS promises to hold the pleb election, and on getting the majority move immediately to negotiations, with a defined end date, then we should go for it. My reading of the situation is that she will have the party united with her.

    It’s real politik to accept the only option on offer.

    What happens if Westmister refuse to negotiate?

    They haven’t been very open to negotiations with regards to the S30.

    Removing Sturgeon and replacing her with Joanna Cherry or Ash Regan could have a massive difference.

  120. Ottomanboi says:

    Coming to the conclusion Scottish independence is equivalent of the Yosemite volcano, talked about, talked up, considered «coming soon» but not likely in this generation or the next, or the next…..
    Seismic data confirms, no exceptional pressure build up.
    The «Fishwife» has really filleted this cause.
    Time for a fresh caterer.

  121. red sunset says:

    @John Main 6.26

    You say “That level of control over independent, self-willed opportunists seems unlikely.”

    But the people who are important in the party are all beholden ultimately to her.
    Everybody in the party is well aware of the pain that will follow if you go against the current leader. If you say the wrong thing. Those who are elected members will be de-selected the next time around. Those who are salaried will become unemployed for some reason.
    There are very many instances of this. I’ve seen personally the “piling on” against members who kept saying the ‘wrong’ thing. Piled on in social media by councillors and staffers, relentlessly. It’s a form of bullying.

    I’ve seen good councillors being sidelined out for newcomers by the use of the voter management system.

    There is no great body of “independent, self-willed opportunists” in the party. Everyone who relies on the support of the party and its machine keeps their head down and does not rock the boat.

    Yes there used to be a time when there were characters who made things interesting. People you could count on to stand up at conference and talk against the leadership. That sort of thing is career destroying in the party nowadays.

  122. Ruby says:

    Dan says:
    18 December, 2022 at 6:52 pm

    I guess my wording isn’t great Ruby.

    What I mean is.

    If the general election is confirmed to be a plebiscite election

    Your wording is probably fine Dan it’s just that I don’t know how politics works so I need to ask.

    For example can Sturgeon dictate that the election is to be a plebiscite election for all parties?

    Would the Tories, LibDems & Labour have to say a vote for us counts as a NO vote.
    What happens with Tory, LibDem & Labour YES voters would they have to ditch the Tories, LibDems & Labour and vote SNP.

    I don’t think these parties are going to like Sturgeon’s plebiscite election.

  123. Mark Boyle says:

    Wilson McBride says:
    18 December, 2022 at 6:24 pm


    A wee bit of history made at world cup when Argentina won it.

    The Argentine player MacAllister’s family originally came from Fife in the 1800s.

    Moved to Dublin and then onto Argentina.

    So Fife should be proud one of their offspring picked up a World Cup winners medal today.

    Jesus Christ, Wilson, that’s Daily Record and Weegie Herald levels of reaching there of the sort that has Walter Tull as a “Rangers” player …

  124. Dan says:

    To be honest Ruby.

    She can’t dictate what other parties do.

    So basically as long as the Scottish Greens and Alba etc say ‘our vote will count towards a YES vote’ then they will. However, and it’s a big however. Sturgeon COULD say either – ‘Voting for SNP is the safest option because this should avoid losing too many seats to unionists and have better voting power/block for negotiations’ which would be absolutely true, and I’m cool with it if they say this – But if she says ‘Only a vote for the SNP will count towards YES’ or ‘Only a vote for the SNP is legitimate’, both of which are untrue I’d be very disappointing and it’s dangerous as it could discredit any potential 50%+1 multi-indy party win before it’s even happened so would be a shameful thing to do.

    But.. I would still vote for it and just be pissed off. Hopefully it doesn’t come to that. I have a feeling she’ll just be vague and say ‘vote for SNP or Green for Yes’. Hopefully she surprises me.

    It doesn’t matter what Labour etc say. If they decide to play or not is irrelevent. All we are interested in is 50%+1 for YES parties.

    Hope this helps.

  125. Dan says:


    To reply to your other message. What if Westminster refuses to negotiate. Good question. Well even Alba support a pleb election remember, albeit their preference is at Holyrood. They don’t want to UDI either (at least not yet).

    The argument from Westminster has always been ‘people don’t want another referendum and people have decided, they don’t want independence’.

    If we can prove otherwise. With 50%+ of the vote. It’s a lot harder to ignore. Because it’s a fact that we want independence.

    We have to take things one step at a time. Win this pleb election (if it happens, which it probably won’t). And by happens, again I mean. Sturgeon and the party reafirm. This is a de-facto referendum (not an election for a mandate).

    Get this step done and it’s harder to be ignored. If we are.. Then and only then can we take further steps. Withdraw our MPs from Westminster. Civil disobedience. Get UN an EU to put on pressure. Still nothing? Then UDI

  126. Dan2 says:

    Also. If there’s already a Dan. I’ll happily change my name to Dan2

  127. KT Lorimer says:

    Where is the blueprint of practicality – a majority for independence so how do we keep the lights on (metaphor) if the UK establishment will not play ball?

  128. Dan2 says:

    ‘Where is the blueprint of practicality – a majority for independence so how do we keep the lights on (metaphor) if the UK establishment will not play ball?’

    Not sure what you mean?

    Bit of a unionist argument this. There is always going to be some unknown going for independence. We are not fortune tellers. There is the white papers coming out. Much as there was a white paper in previous referendum.

    People are already in fuel poverty. It can’t get much worse.

  129. Andy Ellis says:

    @Merganser 6.17 pm

    Well, we all speak well of a bridge that carries us over to the other side.

    I trust you recover well from your recent hospital stay and bout of Covid and will be around for many more years of having your arse handed to you in arguments. 🙂

  130. Tommo says:

    Andy Ellis-
    Perfectly valid points I am sure, and I’m certain you are far better versed in these matters than I- I also happen to support the Union- however I think the gist of your comments pre-supposes the cabal actually want to win independence as opposed to disharmony (and thereafter be forced to seek election on their merits); it seems to me they want periodically to lead part of the Scottish electorate to the altar, and thereby stay in post, without ever actually tying the knot.
    That does not make them stupid-merely avaricious

  131. Andy Ellis says:

    @Ottomanboi 6.58 pm

    Like many I’m unconvinced there will be any progress imminently. I’m not as pessimistic as you are that we’re in for a wait of generations however. Years perhaps, that I can believe.

    The Yes movement has contrived to paint itself in to a corner. Now we have support for independence increasing and exceeding support for the SNP, but no realistic prospect of operationalising it or “making it so”. The uptick in support in encouraging, but not yet decisive: we an increase before, and then it fell back.

    However, the future isn’t ours to see. Sometimes life comes at you fast. I’m not discounting things happening differently or faster, I just don’t think we can bank on: neither the SNP membership or the general electorate seem up for radical action. They remain stubbornly wedded to the current SNP for all its manifest faults, however hard many in here find it to take.

  132. George Ferguson says:

    @Tommo 9:10pm
    Fair enough you are a Unionist and thank you for declaring that as others have not
    My biggest Unionist heroine is JK Rowling and her stance on women’s rights is remarkable. I did not think that when I came back from an Indy stint in 2014 to find a one million leaflet on my doorstep. But I have changed my view of JKR. She is protecting the women in my life. The battle between NS vs JKR as a feminist. Only one winner. I have an interesting story about my son getting his first edition of a JKR book signed when he was 12. It’s now worth 1400.

  133. Andy Ellis says:


    I’m unconvinced by the argument that many of them are actively anti independence. I wouldn’t rule out a few may actually be infiltrators: any mass movement is bound to attract a few fellow travellers. The conspiracy theorising stuff is a cul-de-sac to my mind, but I know it gives a lot of folk a bit of a hard on, so let them have at it.

    Being content to milk the devolutionary settlement for a while longer before risking your cosy existence by casting the die for indy may be pretty despicable in the eyes of many in here and in the broader movement, but I doubt it even rates a second thought for any of those doing it.

    In the end (sadly) we get the representatives we deserve.

  134. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Dan2.

    That was a good move! Dan, a guy whom I’ve eyeballed, has been here for ages with his ‘Sesame Street’ Gravatar. That’s how I told the difference between you. You don’t have a personal Gravatar.

    Doffs cap…

  135. Ross says:

    I’m not sure if it’s been said, but that 1945 image is nothing more than a Photoshop. First giveaway is the SNP’s logo, which didn’t appear in that form until the 60s, but with that typeface next to it, it’s closer to the 2015 version.

    Apart from that, the whole thing is an obvious retro graphic pastiche.

  136. gregor says:

    US head Woke office/mainstream media can’t stop lying and mass deceiving (YOU/WORLD), too:

    WashingtonPost (14/10/2022): The new Jan. 6 video, and the other baseless GOP claim about Pelosi:

    “Ever since the dust settled on the Capitol insurrection…

    …claims and suggestions about her actions that day have been debunked before.

    The main claim about Pelosi has been that she denied National Guard assistance before Jan. 6. Except there remains no evidence of that. As fact-checkers at The Washington Post and elsewhere have noted…

    …occasionally offered a different but related version of that main claim: that Pelosi might have delayed the National Guard even after the unrest began. This claim is also baseless…

    For the purposes of the Republicans’ claims and suggestions, though, what matters is when Pelosi was consulted. And there is no real evidence that she was given a request and then hesitated…”:

    JustTheNews (21/12/2022): House GOP locates emails, texts showing Pelosi office directly involved in failed Jan. 6 security:

    “House Republicans gathered a trove of text and email messages showing House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s office was directly involved in the creation and editing of the Capitol security plan that failed during the Jan. 6, 2021 riot and that security officials later declared they had been “denied again and again” the resources needed to protect one of the nation’s most important homes of democracy…

    …its most explosive revelations involved text and email messages showing that two key staffers in Pelosi’s office attended regular meetings to discuss the security plan for Jan. 6 dating back to early December 2020 and that Pelosi’s top aide even edited some of the plans. Most of those discussions and meetings excluded Republican lawmakers in the House, the report noted…”:

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