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Imagine our astonishment

Posted on July 03, 2019 by

When this complaint got the brush-off from the BBC, flatly refusing a right of reply under Article 28 of the Broadcasting Code to the Corporation’s grossly unbalanced and factually-inaccurate coverage of our court case against Kezia Dugdale:

We now have to go through TWO more rounds of pointless dickaboutery and dismissal from the BBC, taking up several weeks, before Ofcom will take the matter up.

(You may have noted, incidentally, that the letter gives no indication that its response can be appealed in any way. It took Ofcom to tell us it could.)

We’ll keep you posted.

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    1. 03 07 19 14:56

      Imagine our astonishment | speymouth

    241 to “Imagine our astonishment”

    1. Bruce L says:

      “He just kept talking in one long incredibly unbroken sentence moving from topic to topic so that no-one had a chance to interrupt; it was really quite hypnotic.”

    2. bobajock says:

      You’ll be waiting for Godot one assumes.

      I’m waiting for the BBC to end .. and a test card to be broadcast in its place – just as much fun.

    3. Proud Cybernat says:

      They really fucking are a law unto themselves. BBC alone is one MASSIVE reason to Dissolve the Treaty.

    4. Donald MacKenzie says:

      Just confirms that my decision to withhold the proportion of thelicence fee that accounts for Current Affairs and their legal department, were justified.

      ps- The response to my letter asking them to advise me how much is allocated to Current Affairs and the Legal Department thanked me for letting them know I didn’t require a TV Licence and that they’d write in again in 2 years. Doh!

    5. Connor McEwen says:

      There is a game on BBC called Just a Minute. The idea is not to repeat,repeat,
      Deviate
      Deviate. Or er er Hesitate. BBC are great at that?

    6. I wonder what “range of topics” they have in mind for you ? Bullseye prizes or food with funny names would be their safest bet but even then…

    7. Morgatron says:

      And the sun will rise once more! It’s like the magic roundabout with them.

    8. Muscleguy says:

      My decision not to renew the license fee* seems ever more correct. To be ‘taxed’ in order to be lied to would likely have irked the New England colonists as much as ‘no taxation without representation’.

      *My wife took the TV I bought her with her when she left and I took the opportunity of the absence of her objection to reject the license fee for Yes reasons.

      Not this side of actual independence. They can whistle even after the Yes vote and I reckon even that won’t cure them. Hell mend them.

      Come on Nicola pull finger and call it. Okay wait to see which muppet is PM after the dust settles and get them to refuse again so the international community can see it wasn’t just Theresa being obdurate, but continuing and ongoing policy to deny us self determination despite having conceded the principle three times (1979, 1997 and 2017).

    9. HandandShrimp says:

      The purpose of the BBC complaints process is to frustrate and dismay not to achieve redress and balance.

      It will inevitably have to go all the way to Ofcom. I salute Stu’s indefatigable perseverance.

    10. Bob Mack says:

      Obsfuscation with a side of extras thrown in. What a shower.

    11. Capella says:

      They’re funny, aren’t they.

      This is why I don’t pay the “licence fee”, nor watch their output and now rarely listen to their radio news and current affairs, which are neither news nor current affairs.

      It’s a form of pollution IMO.

    12. Ken500 says:

      Go get them Stu. Lying sycophants.

      Lying low lives. Every word they utter is a lie.

      Dugdale, Findlay, Tavish Scott. Another one gone another one down another one hits the dust. Leaving the sinking, stinking ship.

    13. Ken500 says:

      £3.7Billion raised by TV licence demands.

      The revenues the BBC gets is £5Billion

    14. Effijy says:

      Translated it means piss off.
      As if we really care about opinions from the plebs.
      In order to waste your time, we would like to issue you
      With a condescending template letter, promise you the earth
      On an unknown future date and make you jump through hoops
      to continue identify the Corporation as a biased corrupt institution
      who are above the law and in depth public scrutiny.

      Now go back to your croft, tend your sheep and be quiet.

    15. Petra says:

      Oh well you were too late Stu. You didn’t complain within 20 working days. Maybe that’s how the BBC didn’t deal with complaints about Jimmy Saville for over 50 years. They say they weren’t dealt with due to a culture of fear. Looks as though any old excuse they can come up with will do.

      Can you imagine it?

      Can I report that I’m extremely concerned that Jimmy Saville is a paedophile. I wrote to you about this last week but have had no reply.

      BBC:- Do you have any proof?

      Yes I and a friend saw him rape a physically handicapped woman in a hospital 3 weeks ago.

      BBC:- Sorry you’re too late. There’s a twenty day deadline.

      ”The BBC missed opportunities to stop “monstrous” abuse by DJ Jimmy Savile and broadcaster Stuart Hall because of a “culture of fear”, a report says.”

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35658398

    16. craig says:

      Still peddling that lie to you in that letter that Keiza “Won”……

      Unfuckinreal

    17. Petra says:

      Oh well you were too late Stu. You didn’t complain within 20 working days. Maybe that’s how the BBC didn’t deal with complaints about Jimmy Saville for over 50 years. They say they weren’t dealt with due to a culture of fear. Looks as though any old excuse they can come up with will do.

      Can you imagine it?

      Can I report that I’m extremely concerned about Jimmy Saville. He is a monstrous paedophile. I wrote to you about this last week but have had no reply.

      BBC:- Do you have any proof?

      Yes I, and a friend, saw him r*pe a physically handicapped young girl in a hospital 3 weeks ago.

      BBC:- Sorry you’re too late. There’s a twenty day deadline.

      ”The BBC missed opportunities to stop “monstrous” abuse by DJ Jimmy Savile and broadcaster Stuart Hall because of a “culture of fear”, a report says.”

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35658398

    18. TheBuchanLoony says:

      So the BBC can transmit any number of biased programmes and as long as they are twenty days apart you cannot complain about this willful propaganda?…rules set by themselves.

    19. robertknight says:

      What do you expect from a pig but a grunt?

      BBC – BritNat Brainwashing Channel

    20. Sarah says:

      BBC complaints handling is outsourced, so I read somewhere recently – probably on Wings. So of course the service is arrogant, incompetent and unresponsive – just like the Home Office, Prisons, DWP, electoral system “assistance”. When did Group 4 or Serco ever get an award for good service? Just the never.

      I can’t stand much more of this kind of thing.

    21. twathater says:

      The bbc is just another example of why the establishment will NEVER allow democracy , the uk is already the spearhead for the NWO where business and old money control the politicians and the politicians carry out their instructions with NO regard to the populace , ably helped and assisted by their self serving ("Quizmaster" - Ed) lackeys .

      The NWO have taken control of the media , broadcasting , newspapers and the soon to be Internet , and the public are so engrossed in their strictlys and love islands that they don’t see it or don’t care
      This corrupt organisation doesn’t report the news it manipulates and manufacturers their version of what it wants you to absorb

      Kezia’s ( VICTORY ) see what I mean

    22. Iain says:

      ‘can’t respond …’ = ‘won’t respond’

    23. Dr Jim says:

      Television licence? Or wealth tax?

      It’s always struck me as an odd phrase when what it is is a licence to own a television that the government collected money for under the guise of it being to fund the BBC which is a commercial broadcaster as well as the lovely phrase, a *public* broadcaster, but then aren’t all broadcasters *public*? I mean that’s the point isn’t it

      Now the government being unwilling to continue to pay the BBC from general taxation as it always did have shifted the task on to the BBC to collect their own money to fund themselves yet still making it illegal if the consumer refuses to pay this *tax licence*

      So with whom does this legal power of enforcement now lie, is it the government? is it the BBC?

      Is it now the case that should persons not pay the BBC they in turn contact the government to institute legal proceedings against those persons or is the BBC now a licenced tax collector and legal enforcement agency, and if that’s the case, if every person in the United Kingdom refused to pay up the BBC wouldn’t be able to take them all to court because it couldn’t afford to if it must pay its own legal fees

      Sky Netflix Now TV indeed all of these companies rely on the strength and sales of their content programming to attract revenue and advertisers, thus they are successful, but the BBC rely on none of these things because the content whether you watch it or not matters not one jot because you’re *forced* to pay for it, you’re not asked, they don’t try to sell you the BBC you’re ordered to pay under penalty of legal action for something you may never use

      Given that the BBC is not the NHS or some other societal beneficially useful to mankind medical arrangement one wonders why no one has taken the bull by the horns and legally challenged the enforcement of payment for just owning an object that sits in the corner of your living room that’s only used like any other household tool or hairdryer even, and we don’t pay hairdryer tax do we

      Yet!

      No taxation without representation highlights Stu’s case against the BBC, Stuart Campbell pays for the BBC yet when the BBC using it’s employees the presenters, misrepresent Stuart Campbell as the paying customer they find myriad ways of refusing to address the legitimate complaint by Stuart Campbell the customer yet Mr Campbell the customer cannot switch suppliers due to being unhappy with that company’s service

      So this tax, licence, call it what you will is actually a fee on being *alive* and being wealthy enough to own a TV and has as much to do with TV services as Kezia Dugdale is to the truth, at least with a political figure you can vote them out

      So it would seem the only people safe from the BBC are either homeless or dead

      Isn’t democracy UK style just great

    24. Bob Mack says:

      Telling lies or telling your version of the truth has always been the enemy of what actually occurred.

      Even when you take the oath at court they acknowledge this by asking you to swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,and nothing but the truth. In other words ,they acknowledge there are three distinct versions of the truth.

      The BBC have become masters of using these variations to put forward they view they wish to be accepted.

    25. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      HandandShrimp @ 14:55,

      Indeed. I don’t know whether it is deliberate or merely a consequence of a serious degree of bureaucratic constipation coupled with acute producer defensiveness, but the end result is the same.

      The BBC should scrap the whole monstrous edifice and copy the approach taken by the quality press, namely to have an impartial ombudsman who takes any complaint seriously and follows it through for what it’s worth. (Though granted, the Beeb would need a whole team of ombudsmen and women!)

      I once queried a photo attribution in an article in The Observer and got a very pleasant reply back from the ombudsman, who had investigated and found that the attribution was indeed correct, giving chapter-and-verse. Which was in turn readily acceptable to me. (In fact, I learnt something.)

      A complete contrast with the BBC, where self-evident errors are routinely rejected out-of-hand by the production team, sometimes after a significant delay (oh, the irony!), and further pursuit of the matter inevitably evokes responses that are casually dismissive, typically miss significant aspects of the complaint entirely and otherwise insist that black-is-white in the face of indisputable facts. And this is as true for non-political issues as for more-contestable political matters.

      But yes, they do need to be challenged. The ones which make it through the vast labryinth do hit home, and get noticed by the public.

    26. Gordon Forrest says:

      I wonder how much they are paying this ejit if its a penny over zero its a penny too much

    27. Petra says:

      No wonder the Treasury is now losing over £700,000 a year due to people no longer willing to pay for a license to have propaganda beamed right into their living room. Add to that using tax-payers money to award a bunch of losers lucrative wages, such as Gary Lineker on £1.75 million a year. How disgusting is that? Time for the BBC to give up the ghost.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_BBC

    28. CameronB Brodie says:

      The BBC license fee is a legal contract, of sorts. As such, this high-handed response suggests the BBC consider themselves above the law and beyond public unaccountable. Remember though, their Royal charter does require them to support British nationalism, the contemporary form of which is incompatible with the principle of universal human rights (see the full-English Brexit, for example).

      Accountability: A Public Law Analysis of Government by Contract
      https://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780198299486.001.0001/acprof-9780198299486

    29. Robert Peffers says:

      @robertknight says:3 July, 2019 at 3:36 pm:

      ” … What do you expect from a pig but a grunt?”

      If you really know anything about pigs, Robert, you would know there are another two things you most certainly can expect from pigs. Besides the grunts you get from the front end you also will get squeals, but more of that anon, from the other end you get an abundance of shite and pish.

      Your comparison between pigs and the BBC is thus very apt. As to the squeals these will come along with independence when the many shooglie pegs the BBC Scotland staff’s jaikits currently hing upon at last give way upon Scottish independence sees the wearers of said jaikits find themselves jobless and themselves unwelcome in Scotland.

    30. CameronB Brodie says:

      More on public accountability. As an aside, I wonder if supper yoon, Prof. Adam Tomkins, considers the full-English Brexit as being constitutionally legal?

      The Executive and Public Law:
      Power and Accountability in Comparative Perspective

      Abstract

      This is a book about the definition of executive power and the ways in which it can be rendered accountable. Such power is especially important in the modern day, as exemplified by the detention of prisoners in Guantanomo Bay. The book explores the nature of executive power in a number of different legal systems including England, Scotland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, and the EU, and draws insights from the comparative perspective.

      Keywords: executive power, Guantanomo Bay, legal systems, England, Scotland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, EU
      https://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199285594.001.0001/acprof-9780199285594

    31. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      BBC just doing its job.

      An extention of the English state and England’s security services.

      Problem is lots of folk starting to realise this fact.

      I also now think paying the TV licence just encourages them.

    32. Stu, change your name by deed poll to Tom Harris and you’ll never be off the fuckin’ BBC.

    33. sassenach says:

      Jason Smoothpiece @5-17pm

      “Problem is lots of folk starting to realise this fact.”

      That’s not a ‘problem’ as far as I’m concerned – the more others realise the BBC’s game, the better for Indy!!!

    34. Republicofscotland says:

      A loathsome institution backed by the British government and funded by us. Its akin to giving them your money then getting slapped in the face and told to f#ck off.

      It must surely be high on the agenda to reform the BBC in Scotland (new name required) after indy. Me I’d shut the f#cking thing down,and deny them a Scottish broadcasting licence.

    35. ALANM says:

      Typical BBC response. It only makes sense when you recognise that their mission is not to explain but to distract and confuse. British Brainwashing Corporation I call them.

      I’ve complained myself on a couple of occasions in the past but the wall of resistance you’re met with is enough to put most people off ever complaining again. And of course that’s exactly how they like it.

    36. Mac says:

      Folks will wake up to the licence brain washing scam eventually. If 100,000 Yessers gave their TV licence monies to Independence organisations… Now that would be powerful. (I am not even going to multiple it)

      If everyone stoped paying… it would be an incredible form of protest. It would get in the news. It would be great PR and they cannot go after everyone. Imagine.

    37. Mac says:

      Hit them in the pocket… no point to complain.

    38. Big Bill says:

      I can’t wait for Independence and that pile of $hit becomes a proscribed organisation in Scotland.

    39. galamcennalath says:

      The BBC, and others in the UKOK media …. Fighting this last ditch defence of their Union is the highest priority. It will only get worse. One thing is for sure, they won’t be deflected, they won’t moderate, and they will only give up when they (like their union) is dissolved in Scotland.

      Nothing we do will cause them to take a less biased and more balanced position. Quite the opposite IMO, as Indy becomes more and more inevitable they will become more demented.

      This I think is the important aspect … the greater the number of Scots who see through their antics, the less effective they become. Folks can’t un-see the reality once they’ve opened their eyes.

      And that number of enlightened Scots will be increased by continually calling out, challenging via complaints, online articles, whatever …. hammer the ba5tards at every available opportunity and means.

      A tipping point is coming, very soon, when Indy becomes the clear will of the people. Those denying and opposing this will be seen as meddling, undermining, and anti democratic.

    40. Conor says:

      First time posting (but not reading!) here. This might be helpful:

      https://ssl.bbc.co.uk/complaints/forms/assets/complaintsnew/resources/BBC_Complaints_Framework.pdf#page11

      The timeframe is 30 working days per their policy, not 20. The complaint submitted on 24 June was exactly 30 working days after the 12 May broadcast (31 weekdays less one public holiday). This is within the timeframe.

      The complaint was 34 working days after the 5 May broadcast (36 weekdays less two public holidays). Where you have a reason for reporting late, the BBC should consider the complaint per their policy – surely the reason is that it is the cumulative nature of the issues that results in the complaint, and so you need to wait for future broadcasts (eg 12 May) to submit the complaint?

      Interestingly, it says if the complaint relates to items currently available on a BBC website (which the radio broadcasts were at the time of the complaint), then there is no time limit.

      Hopefully that helps with the appeal.

    41. Breeks says:

      OT… Jeremy Hunt warning China to respect the deal it made over Hong Kong.

      Meanwhile, the UK charging ahead with plans for a No Deal Brexit which will provoked the Irish Backstop and undermine the deal the UK made to secure the Good Friday Peace Agreement.

    42. Frank Gillougley says:

      The BBC and Stuart.
      Like Cromwell talking with the levellers.
      A fucking brick wall.

    43. On PMQ today, May opened by congratulating the ‘Loinesses’, aand Corbyn added his own congratulations, and added that he hoped the England cricket team would lso inspire (‘the nation’, presumably?) before he gave the latest cricket score:’ England 135 for 1, whatever that means, to cheers from the benches.
      These Anglos have gone completely mad.
      England burns, and they break out the Pimms and cucumber sandwiches.
      Someone above mentioned almost reaching ‘the tipping point’.
      I’d argue that we are away past any point of return.
      As Tavish Scott observed on Saturday in his best Charles Dance purr, ‘There is no turning back’.
      Old Liz Saxe-Coburg/Windsor/ Battenberg looked well pissed off.

      Anybody on here willing to put up with the English Parliament from now on in?
      Thought not.
      It’s all about to get very nasty very soon now.

    44. Dr Jim says:

      Alistair Carmichael admitted he couldn’t see any other option for Scotland now after being asked by Glen Campbell if all this Tory Brexit nonsense would lead to Scottish Independence
      No Jo Swinson stupidity from him on it

      Let’s just see if that means Alistair Carmichael will now actually support Independence

      I bet he won’t

    45. galamcennalath says:

      Dr Jim says

      Let’s just see if that means Alistair Carmichael will now actually support Independence

      I bet he won’t

      I live in hope that we reach a point where lots of BritNats do accept (even just privately) that the inevitable is imminent and there is no point in flogging a dead horse. Their UK union has no future. Life is short for everyone and many might (I hope) conclude that they need to just move on and think about life after Indy.

      Just giving up and going home on the eve of the final battle, you might say. Fighting on, driven by ideological purity, with no hope of winning is a far left trait – I’m guessing a lot of BritNats are more pragmatic.

      We are starting to hear ‘defeatist talk’ … a good sign.

    46. Bobp says:

      Ebc, a law unto themselves. Nowhere else in the world would people pay to be lied to.

    47. Graf Midgehunter says:

      O/T – but you won’t see this on the BBC.

      It’s very well made with a steady time-line and leaves you with a feeling of might have been had we still been independent.

      It’s under represented with only 4000 views.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ee8KiR_T7U

      “This film looks at some of the key events in the evolution of landownership in Scotland from the earliest times, to today’s land reform agenda. How was land controlled in Scotland’s early communities? How did the Roman presence and the development of early states like Pictland, Dalriata and Caesar! affect control of the land? What was the impact of feudalism and what were the effects of the highland clearances?”

    48. mogabee says:

      Roll on the day after a yes vote to Scottish independence. Will the BBC be impartial? hell no…

      But the agony of them reporting said result would make me really, really laugh out loud! 😀 😀

    49. CameronB Brodie says:

      Britain really is a throwback in time but I’m not sure if the current administration is simply criminally incompetent, or have been overpowered internally by dedicated fascists (see the full-English Brexit). Whatever, the BBC will always have the government’s back and would never question the overarching neo-liberal paradigm of narrow political interests and the nationalisation of private risk (see banking bailout).

      6.1.2 Government and Accountability Lecture

      I. The Executive and Public Law Powers

      The rule of law requires that all be subject to the law, even the government or executive. The authority of the executive comes from Parliamentary legislation and the Crown’s Royal Prerogative and common law powers. Most legislative proposals come from the government to permit it to act in line with its policy objectives. The government is required to obtain a majority of the House of Commons (and Lords) to support a bill. Parliament is supreme and thus can prevent the government introducing legislation. Royal prerogative powers are residual and thus cannot be extended by the Crown.

      The executive is comprised, not just of the political executive (or government), but also includes civil servants; the government can also confer public law powers on other bodies to carry out public functions. Public functions, since the 1980’s, have also been contracted out to private contractors. There is now a web of executive agencies that exercise powers on behalf of the government.

      Next Step agencies are also charged with putting public policy initiatives into practice; this proliferation of public functions within the private sector makes Parliamentary scrutiny of executive functions even more difficult. There have been recent Parliamentary reforms in order to adapt to this change in public functions….

      https://www.lawteacher.net/modules/public-law/government-and-accountability/detailed.php

    50. Hamish100 says:

      I take it if you have just listened to a programme today on Iplayer first broadcast last month you can still complain as you just heard it!

      Still doesn’t explain why Dugdale kept being invited onto various BBC programmes with the Smith clan in tow. She is still paid as a politician. Political bias at its most naked.

      Help, get me out of here!

    51. Bobp says:

      Surprised the ebc haven’t blamed the abolition of the free TV licence fee on the Scots who sponge of England, and refuse to pay their TV licence. Therefore forcing poor English pensioners into having to subsidise those scrounging jocks. Watch this space.

    52. galamcennalath says:

      Looks like the gruesome twosome will be in Perth on Friday evening, it seems 😉

      http://archive.is/cgf1o

    53. Bobp says:

      Mogabee, I’d tape that for perpetuity to have a right good bellylaugh whenever I needed cheering up.

    54. boris says:

      April 1998 A French view of Scotland’s Journey From Darkness Into Light

      Scottish devolution is under way, spelling an end to centralist decision-making in the United Kingdom.

      In accordance with the September 1997 referendum, Scotland is to have home rule.

      Nearly three hundred years after the abolition of the last Scottish parliament, the country will again have its own elected legislative authority.

      Within Europe, Scotland will have an identity as specific as, for instance, Catalonia or Bavaria.

      But there is no knowing if this stage will be Scotland’s last.

      https://caltonjock.com/2016/02/01/the-commitment-of-the-westminster-government-to-ending-centralized-rule-is-at-an-end-scottish-devolution-did-not-last-long/

    55. Bobp says:

      Twathater 4.02pm. Your post says it all, the British public are truly mushrooms.

    56. Bobp says:

      Petra 3.19pm. ‘A culture of fear’ more likely a culture of leer. Ebc paedo enabling scum.

    57. Iain mhor says:

      Hmm just a wee thing, but are they suggesting the interview and topic was merely about the financial aspect of the case? Because I seem to recall the phrase ‘on all points of law”
      Forgive me if I’m too lazy and repulsed, to dig that up and find out if the phrase was relating to purely the financial aspect ie : on all points (of law) relating to financial damages – or whether (as I inferred) it meant ‘on all points of the case in its entirety.

      I think they are dissembling on semantics.

    58. Breeks says:

      Channel 4 was quite bad on the irony overload tonight.

      Not just reporting the UK threatening China with grim consequences for abandoning the Hong Kong handover agreement, (clearly oblivious to the reciprocal arrangement where China will no doubt threaten the UK with grim consequences for abandoning the Good Friday Agreement once the Irish Backstop kicks in), but there was also ironic criticism of Europe for all the horse trading going on over the top jobs, oblivious it would seem to the absolute circus of the totally undemocratic Tory Leadership saga currently ongoing and promising to install either Tweedledee or Tweedledum in the top spot at Westminster.

      Come on Chamnel 4. A little more reflection and self awareness please.

      And listen Scotland, especially Aberdeenshire, before you go to bed tonight, better check the padlocks on your sheds, greenhouses, garages and outbuildings. Theresa May is coming to Scotland to a shed near you to make a statement on Devolution. That should be good for a giggle.

    59. stu mac says:

      https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2019/07/01/the-cultural-cringe/

      When you think about it this is related to the post topic though not directly perhaps.

    60. mr thms says:

      With regard to your right of reply.

      I have a hunch the publicity from a solicitor’s letter to the Director-General of the BBC, rather using the BBC’s discredited ‘fobbing off’ service, would help to resolve the matter quicker.

    61. Bobp says:

      O/t Jeremy hunt tweeted today message to Chinese government: good relations between countries are based on mutual respect and honouring the legally binding agreements between them: This is the best way to preserve the great relationship between the UK and China. Aye nobody does hypocrisy with a lying straight face like the Brits.

    62. Still Positive says:

      Graf midgehunter @ 8.20

      Really enjoyed that film. Thank you.

    63. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 19:40,

      Yes, if you’re a fairly thoughtful Scottish unionist – if there are any! – you might well be anticipating (what for them is) the worst. (Hence no doubt for the suppression of that recent poll for the UKGov, which incidentally is fact-finding, evidence-taking, not “advice”.)

      Surprising maybe it was Carmichael of all people to break ranks, but in face of the mounting evidence over Brexit, someone was surely going to do it.

      In the video that msdidi kindly unearthed for us in the previous thread @ 00:53:

      http://www.facebook.com/rosscolquhoun/videos/10153965639698101/UzpfSTU1NTc5MzIzNzg4NDAzMzoxNTUzODA5MDM0NzQ5MTEw/

      it seems that Guy Verhofstadt has now given up on “England+Wales” being saved from Brexit, but he studiously omitted any reference to Scotland. That’s about as close to the diplomatic edge as anyone can get. So the message is now finally getting through to people, including those in the Unionist camp. Presumably not all are prepared to casually sacrifice Scotland to deluded toff-led English Nationalism.

      Much smarter though than merely giving up would be for some big-name Unionist to publicly switch sides. That would get peoples’ attention and earn them a (tardy) place on the right side of history. Might even save their party from the scrapheap. That’s the kind of thing that happens when the tipping point is reached.

      But is there anyone on the BritNat side with that kind of foresight and courage…?

    64. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      sassenach 5.36

      You are quite right my friend, I should have said the problem for the English Nationalist government….

    65. galamcennalath says:

      Robert J. Sutherland

      Guy Verhofstadt

      WOW, he says “PM of UK” and then says, “or should I say PM of England and Wales”.

      That is brilliant. If others in the EU have the same attitudes then Scotland has some friends in high places.

      As for influential BritNats ‘crossing the floor’ and changing to YES … it’s bound to happen. Someone in Labour is the best candidate, IMO.

    66. Robert Peffers says:

      I can remember when it opened again after WWII it was being described as, “The new opiate of the people”, and they sure as hell weren’t kidding. I know people who get up in the morning, shower, turn on the TV while getting and having their breakfast.

      Then the bloody thing remains on until the go to bed and if you visit them you feel unwelcome by interrupting their viewing.

    67. Dr Jim says:

      It’ll be interesting to see what the *Scottish* press have to say tomorrow post Theresa May and her numpties visit to somewhere in deepest darkest Scotland

      That says it all really doesn’t it she’s going to come to Scotland surround herself with hand picked press then tell like it is in a secret location just in case us mad *Jocks* seek her out and destroy her or maybe just do a normal protest at her existence and damn cheek so the Brits can show it on news at ten on all platforms to make it look like a legitimate thing, I mean they don’t really have to come here to do that, they could fake it like the Moon landings (joke) who’d know or even care

      I hope the FM spits her out like the tasteless gum she is

    68. galamcennalath says:

      Robert Peffers says:

      The new opiate of the people

      Early TV. Takes me back. My first experience was going round to my father’s friend who had just got a new TV (everyone rented) because STV was being launched. We watched the launch which wiki tells me was 31 August 1957. We got our first TV about 1960.

      In the 60s we really only watched STV unless something unusual appeared on the BBC. Like, the first episode of Dr Who which wiki says was 23 November 1963.

      The TV did normally stay on STV. Same as everyone we knew. Cheap US westerns took up much of the schedule. I guess posh folk watched BBC. We didn’t know any posh folk.

      Opiate maybe, but my recollection from 70s and 80s was politicians got a much harder time than now. TV journalists held them to account and programmes like World in Action did genuine investigations. The establishment seems to exercise much more control over broadcasting now, despite the diversity.

    69. Thepnr says:

      That poll on Independence the government have refused to release the results of after a FOI request from Tommy Shepherd must have been an absolute peach for our side.

      No one could miss the panic in recent days, ranging from more and more talk of “Federalism” for the UK and all to be topped off by Theresa May’s visit to some hut in Scotland tomorrow.

      Apparently she is here to tell the natives:

      “The job of prime minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland brings with it privileges and responsibilities which you only really feel once the black door closes behind you. One of the first and greatest is the duty you owe to strengthen the Union,” she will say.

      “To govern on behalf of the whole United Kingdom. To respect the identities of every citizen of the UK – English and Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish. And to ensure that we can go on facing the future together, overcoming obstacles together, and achieving more together than we ever could apart – a Union of nations and people.”

      https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/brexit/may-to-warn-no-deal-brexit-could-endanger-integrity-of-uk-1.3945809

      In other news the most recent poll by Yougov on Westminster voting intentions puts Labour in 4th place on just 18%, The Tories lead on 24%, Brexit Party 23% and Lib Dem 20%.

      https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1146524127160872960

      That can only mean one thing surely if there’s any brains left in the Labour party and that is Corbyn is toast. I don’t think the membership have any other choice than to replace him as leader if they are to have any hope at all of gaining power.

      I couldn’t care less, such disarray all looks good for Independence.

    70. Golfnut says:

      @ Gallamcennalath

      Guy Verhofstadt

      The smiles, laughter and applause were very evident. Warms the heart.

    71. Graf Midgehunter says:

      If the Brexit MEPs actually talk out of their arses then it’s quite logical that they should stand with their backs to the EU Parly Forum.

      Bit smelly though…..! 😉

    72. frogesque says:

      O/t

      Sad to read about the suspected cause of WEK’s injuries. There are some real bad fuckers out there.

      Keep on fighting wee one, Indy cats are all lion on the inside and 8.5 of your 9 lives may have been wrenched from you but here’s hoping those with the skill and love will see you through.

      BTW vets don’t come cheap, if you need help via a crowdfunder just shout.

    73. Liz g says:

      Thepnr @ 10.52
      ‘re ” that poll ”
      Over on the Revs Twitter someone called cybernat nell tweets about home schooling…
      Well a wee bit down her feed there’s a tweet from “name the day ” saying that it’s all over what’s app that the poll shows Indy at 57%……
      Probably just a rumour amplified by the jungle drums but even so the fact that it’s a believable number because of the underlying panic,certainly has a feel good factor!
      While I hope it’s actually true,I’ll still Take the bounce from the gossip at the moment 🙂

    74. Terry callachan says:

      The letter from BBC complaints team is unprofessional .
      And to say that one complaint about several events over a long period cannot be treated as one complaint is just so amateurish.
      What an idiot John Culbert the author of the BBC letter is to actually say that the complaint cannot be looked at because some of the events complained about took place more than twenty days ago.

      Really BBC ?

      What we are actually seeing here is obstruction , an obstruction of the legitimate complaints process by the national broadcasting company BBC.

      its quite shocking when you think about it because you have a realisation that the high and mighty BBC that always presents itself as the unquestionably truthful fair and reasonable arbiter of reporting is in fact corrupt to the core and then it dawns on you that it hasn’t changed throughout your whole life, all that’s happened is that it’s corruption has been exposed.

      We have been taken as fools all this time.

      What we are seeing is that when you question and draw attention to the failings of the BBC to be truthful fair and reasonable the organisation is so full of its own importance that it cannot face up to being found out so it shakes and quivers not knowing what to do now that it’s cover has been blown and out pops one ridiculous story after another showing us that the BBC is actually a very effective weapon used against the people.

      BBC will never recover from this calamity , it has been found to be a lying deceiver a propaganda outlet for the Westminster government and those behind the scenes that control that place.

      just as we seen obstruction in wings legal case where a judge accepted the argument that if you say you believe something to be true then the court has to accept that you believe it to be true even if all other evidence and reality itself shows that you don’t believe it to be true.

      It’s hotting up.

      The great british state is being questioned challenged and doesn’t like it when the slick untrusted answers it gives are rejected.

      I expect Westminster to get nasty quite soon
      Bullying can’t remain mere threats forever sooner or later more than threats are seen as the response that is needed

      What will it be first

    75. Heart of Galloway says:

      Don’t know about you but over the past few weeks I have been in a state of increasing nervous tension over what lies ahead.

      Every waking minute the feeling grows stronger that Scotland is approaching her do or die moment beyond which lies either desolation or the joy of a just victory.

      The omens have never been more propitious or the stakes higher.
      But those who bask in the complacent assumption that the union is reaching its end should beware because the British state will deploy every weapon at its disposal to avoid its extinction.

      The import of what could be about to happen cannot be overstated.

      Scotland free to take her place in the international community? To agitate for peace, not war? To have our own voice in Europe again after so many lost years and centuries?
      To use or conserve our resources as we see fit?

      The UK special defence team will use every trick in the book to prevent that happening.

      Some folk are still whining that IndyRef2 has not yet been called. Well sorry, but the campaign has already started. What do you think Theresa May’s foray into the troublesome Northern Territory is all about? Or the referendum bill going through the Scottish Parliament?

      Somewhere, some time ago we passed the point of no return. Ian Blackford’s repeated refrain of ‘Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU against our will’ should have been a clue.

      Three years ago, a week after the EU referendum, a worried Slovakian workmate asked me ‘what happens now?’ I replied ‘Scotland will stay in the EU because that’s what we voted for.’

      ”You promise?’ ‘Yes.’

      So get out there and convince, persuade and encourage workmates and acquaintances, friends and family, anyone with an open mind and a preparedness to listen, to vote YES.

      Europe will be our backstop – and we will need her.

    76. Elmac says:

      Reading some of the earlier posts reminded me of why I despise the BBC. In an earlier life I took issue with their attempts at extortion directed against my business address and telephoned the number quoted on one of their threatening letters. I pointed out that whilst there was no equipment capable of receiving a TV broadcast at my address I felt obliged to confess that I did have a toaster and a spare spare of wellingtons for which I held no licence. I was solemly advised that I was not obliged to have a licence for such items. My attempt at irony was obviously pitched at too high a level.

      Nowadays I need only be concerned with my home premises but keep the phone number of our local police station handy in the event of a visit from agents of this reprehensible organisation. Aggravated trespass and threatening behaviour are criminal offences which will give me great pleasure in demanding that the local constabulary prosecute. Video evidence will be provided.

      The “licensing” of television broadcasting is a nonsense. To do so on the back of financing a blatant propaganda outlet with a history of protecting paedophiles is offensive in the extreme. Pay me a “visit” and make my day punks.

    77. Heart of Galloway says:

      Don’t know about you but over the past few weeks I have been in a state of increasing nervous tension over what lies ahead.

      Every waking minute the feeling grows stronger that Scotland is approaching her do or die moment beyond which lies either desolation or the joy of a just victory.

      The omens have never been more propitious or the stakes higher.
      But those who bask in the complacent assumption that the union is reaching its end should beware because the British state will deploy every weapon at its disposal to avoid its extinction.

      The import of what could be about to happen cannot be overstated.

      Scotland free to take her place in the international community? To agitate for peace, not war? To have our own voice in Europe again after so many lost years and centuries?
      To use or conserve our resources as we see fit?

      The UK special defence team will use every trick in the book to prevent that happening.

      Some folk are still whining that IndyRef2 has not yet been called. Well sorry, but the campaign has already started. What do you think Theresa May’s foray into the troublesome Northern Territory is all about? Or the referendum bill going through the Scottish Parliament?

      Somewhere, some time ago we passed the point of no return. Ian Blackford’s repeated refrain of ‘Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU against our will’ should have been a clue.

      Three years ago, a week after the EU referendum, a worried Slovakian workmate asked me ‘what happens now?’ I replied ‘Scotland will stay in the EU because that’s what we voted for.’

      ”You promise?’ ‘Yes.’

      So get out there and convince, persuade and encourage workmates and acquaintances, friends and family, anyone with an open mind and a preparedness to listen, to vote YES.

      Europe will be our backstop – and we will need her.

    78. CmonIndy says:

      I fucking love diverting my license fee to a range of Indy causes. The BBC have, at my request, donated over £250 to Wings since 2015, for example.

    79. ben madigan says:

      @Heart of Galloway – Well said, my friend. Here we stand. We can do no other

    80. Mollie says:

      Good post Heart of Galloway.

      The Tories if nothing else are prepared to play the long game, putting seemingly innocuous pieces in place sometimes years before they become relevant.

      The media knows despite their best attempts, the control they had to set the story is no longer as sure as it once was although obviously still has clout.

      The complete disregard of the rules, dark money,EU nationals being unable to vote and the response of the Electoral Commision ( with the Met) makes me nervous and I only hope the SG have some better way of making sure any kind of vote is secure.

      Does anyone know if Treezer is visiting Wales to review their devolution ?

    81. twathater says:

      O/T I went on to Scotrail website earlier to book tickets for my wife and I to attend the Ayr AUOB march , we usually go by car or bus to some marches but as we are traveling from Paisley it doesn’t make sense to go into Glasgow to come all the way back

      Anyway having signed up to Scotrail I then went on to book return tickets , as my wife and I both are retired and hold SG NEC cards I naturally looked for the box to input our NEC numbers for discount travel but couldn’t see it anywhere on the checkout page , there are numerous discount cards from all over the uk that you can click on in the dropdown box but no sign of a SG NEC link

      I then phoned Scotrail customer services to ask where in the dropdown box was the link to input the SG NEC card number , the male at the other end said that he could look for it but he knew it wasn’t there , I asked are you telling me that a franchise that is listed as Scotrail has numerous links for all sorts of discount rail cards from all over the uk and the wider world DOESN’T have the SG’s NEC card listed , he gave me the phone number to the website department but unfortunately it just rang out

      Can someone please tell me that this is not true and I was making a cod of finding it

    82. Cactus says:

      Merry Independence Day… America

    83. Cactus says:

      The BBC are SOOOoo yesterday

      And NOW a word from our sponsors 🙂

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3la7QyMBvu8

    84. Cactus says:

      The BBC are bogus

      Here’s where Yes2 is definitely at and at least…

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6leCdplAd0
      (Watch with reference at 28 to 47 secs, if yer interested)

      NB Remember that battle scene frae Braveheart where both sides are about to engage… well the way things are going, all Scotland’s People have to do is stand there with crossed arms, as their opposition charge up to us then fall flat on their faces

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8TT-o4kGMU

    85. Al Dossary says:

      Had a wee read last night at an article highlighting just exactly who the Brexit Party candidates were that stood for election recently. The list of candidates, their backgrounds and beliefs truly are mind boggling.

      “From gay conversion therapy advocates to supporters of paedophilia legalisation, from climate change deniers to rampant tax avoiders, from NHS abolitionists to besties of neo-Nazis, from fracking supporters to unabashed profiteers of chaos…”.

      That none of the MSM, not the BBC, ch4 ITV or the newspapers have seen it fit to publicise these egotistical, self serving maniacs beliefs and background beggars belief.

      https://medium.com/@SJHolloway/this-is-everything-i-discovered-about-all-of-the-brexit-party-mep-candidates-2a59f8f850c5

    86. Cactus says:

      NOW here a hand my trusty friend and gies a hand ‘o thine…

      IN independent Scotland aye would like to suggest that we celebrate and sing aloud Auld Lang Syne on the 1st of every month, twelve times a year (with Hogmanay being the highlight).

      We NEED to do the above more often, we owe it to ourselves

      We invented everything

      Imagine

    87. Golfnut says:

      @twathater

      Wife just checked, nope definitely not there. The listings themselves don’t seem to be exactly user friendly.

    88. Golfnut says:

      @ Mollie.

      Don’t know if May is visiting Wales but Yes it applies to Wales also.

    89. Ken500 says:

      The BBC licence fee raises £3.7Billion. The BBC spends/raises £5Billion in revenues. Much goes to keep up the property estate. A self building empire. An excess enough to help eradicate poverty. The BBC commentators tax evade. The reporters reporting on tax evasion. Sky commentator landlord influenced a discussion on rogue landlord by claiming that tenants were unable to change a light bulb.

      Hunt is a landlord with dubious property deals.

      May must be visiting the Burnett Estate again. Alexander Burnett. The Tory MSP charged with trying to influence Gov policies of self interest. The richest family on Deeside of vast estate. The Queen’s neighbour and relative, He came fourth in the electoral status but on the list system gained a seat. An incompetent electoral system the voters do not understand. Introduced by Deans to favour unionist candidates. PR 2000

    90. Dorothy Devine says:

      Al Dossary , that’s quite a selection you have there!

      Morning Cactus, loved the Caledonia one – not so keen on the capillary action one!

    91. Joe says:

      The thing that surprises me is that it took the obvious lies during the referendum for a lot of people to realise just how dishonest the bbc are. They are part of the intelligence/propaganda aparatus of a corrupt state. Thats all anyone needs to know

    92. Joe says:

      @ Heart of Galloway

      I understand the feeling but honestly – even if Scotland got and lost another referendum it still wouldnt matter much if enough of Scotland want it. Independence will never be that easy anyway.

    93. Ken500 says:

      There have been mixed changing facilities in swimming pools/health clubs for years.with absolutely little problems. No one is getting attacked or people wandering around with their genitals exposed.
      Everyone is accommodated. Separate cubicles. There are cubicles for families and friends, it means families, Friends can change together, They do not have to separate to change. Children of different sex from their parents do not need to have separate changing facilities. Causing access to facilities problems. Mixed changing facilities reduce threat of attack with separate changing rooms. There are men and women who could apprehend a transgressor. There are adequate staff (by Law) to monitor proceeding. Cameras all over the entrance/exit facilities.

      Mixed changing facilities mean there is less likelihood of attack. Everything is open to scrutiny. All open with less access for attack. Any complaint or visual or vocal would soon be address. Any attacker apprehended. Females can be just as safe in mixed changing facilities as in conventional. It helps mothers/parents who want to use the facilities with different sex children.

      Young people are often not ashamed of their bodies. Just treat it as a pound of flesh. With changing attitudes to body parts exposure. No so prudish as their elders. Changing attitudes. Mixed changing facilities are just not a problem. It is people who do not use them that are always complaining. They are ignorant of the facilities. There has always been mixed sex doctors. That is not a problem. There is a standard code of ethic. That must be followed. Or they lose their status. It happens very infrequently statistically.

      People are more likely to be accidentally injured in a toilet than attacked. 10,000?

      Self ID is possible without any problems if handled sympathetically.

      It is still the case that most attacks on people (murders) happen in the home or are between people who are known to each other. Not strangers. Men are four times more likely to be attacked violently by other men. It is a gender issue. It is mainly men that attack others.

    94. brian lucey says:

      Have asked before and ask now. What’s Plan B if/when WM denies a referendum?
      Realistic plans that will see Scotland able to enter into the world as a real nation, not TransDnistra or Northern Cyprus?

    95. Robert Peffers says:

      @Republicofscotland says: 3 July, 2019 at 5:38 pm:

      ” … It must surely be high on the agenda to reform the BBC in Scotland (new name required) after indy. Me I’d shut the f#cking thing down,and deny them a Scottish broadcasting licence.”

      Thing is, Republicofscotland, the people of Scotland have paid for them and the studios, transmitters and aerials so we take them over. We have paid the piper we will call the tune.

      Another thing is that broadcast signals do not respect political borders and the BBC North of England also transmits to south of the border, N.I. and Isle of Man so bits of Scotland will receive BBC England and bits England will get the post independence Scottish Services.

      What becomes of the current BBC Scotland staff will be up to us. After all the engineers are not the problem – those before the microphones and cameras and their bosses are the problem.

      We were only following orders is not a defence in law.

    96. Robert Peffers says:

      @Still Positive says: 3 July, 2019 at 9:56 pm:

      ” … ehunter @ 8.20
      Really enjoyed that film. Thank you.

      Hi, Still Positive – As you enjoyed the film you may be interested in their other productions.

      They are independent but the example posted was on YouTube and YouTube make things hard to copy and save. However the people who made the film have their own website and you can download their work without problems but if you use it in your own productions you have to give them credit.

      Their own website with all their own films is:-

      https://www.dipinvideo.co.uk/

      They do great work.

    97. Essexexile says:

      Ken500@8.35am

      Two weeks after the matter was put to rest I see you’re still really, really not getting it.
      Why, for example, do we all check our front door is locked before we go to bed? The chances of anybody coming in are infinitesimally small according to the statistics but we feel safe and sleep better for it.
      Safe spaces for women are where THEY feel safe. Not where somebody else tells them that they should feel safe. Massive difference.

    98. jfngw says:

      The SNP posting a video of an MP mocking and deriding communications from voters is a level of arrogance that New Labour never even reached. They need to get their heads out of their arses.

    99. Robert Peffers says:

      @galamcennalath says:3 July, 2019 at 10:45 pm:

      ” … Early TV. Takes me back. My first experience was going round to my father’s friend who had just got a new TV (everyone rented) because STV was being launched. We watched the launch which wiki tells me was 31 August 1957. We got our first TV about 1960.”

      The first actual transmission was BBC only in 1952. BBC were still testing transmissions from Kirk o Shots in that year and transmitted the late king’s funeral. The first TVs were 8″, 10″ or 12″ screens and BBC only.

      There was no rental TVs at that point. By 1956 I finished my apprenticeship as did my then best friend. I decided to remain in MOD service but my pal got a job with the BBC who had just opened up a new studio just close to Park Head Cross in Glasgow. At weekends I was usually in the BBC Glasgow Studio as this was the big day for BBC Scotland. The service was the Children’s programme at lunchtime from the network so no need for BBC Scotland input.

      Then nothing more until tea time when there was a Scottish news insert into the network news from the Glasgow Studio when my pal was on duty. Then nothing more until the Sports report after the fitba finished.

      Later came the White Heather Club but everything else was the BBC network. So my pal and I were free most of Saturdays to go to a football match and later to the dancing before an early morning return home to Edinburgh.

      So there you have it in 1957/8 the BBC Scotland’s entire output was Lunchtime Children’s Hour, and a news insert at tea time except on Saturdays when we got the Sports results and the White Heather Club.

    100. call me dave says:

      An old pal of the Union Alan Cochrane on shortbread radio early this morning chewing a wasp.

      No much good to say about Theresa but the SGov very very bad
      While his other pal David Cleft from the daily wrecker a bit more circumspect. 🙂 🙂

    101. call me dave says:

      Ha! Tablet … Clegg

    102. schrodingers cat says:

      Robert Peffers says:

      Thing is, Republicofscotland, the people of Scotland have paid for them and the studios, transmitters and aerials so we take them over. We have paid the piper we will call the tune.

      ————

      pacific quay isnt bought and paid for, the bbc only pay the morgage

    103. Petra says:

      WGD:- ‘Theresa’s red white and blutack.’

      ….”Theresa’s review is going to be led by Andrew Dunlop, who as an advisor in the government of Margaret Thatcher was one of those responsible for the poll tax. So that inspires confidence. We’re told that the review is going to confine itself to looking at UK Government departments, but if you believe that you probably also believe that the poll tax was a good idea. We’re looking at you, Andrew.”

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/07/03/theresas-red-white-and-blutack/#comments

      …………………………

      I hope Robert Harrison won’t mind me reposting his comments. From WGD comments section:-

      Robert Harrison says July 3, 2019 at 3:55 pm

      ”Heres some more of those said cracks showing in independence polling

      Evening times march 14th 2019 Yes 86% no 14%

      Progress Scotland march 28th 2019 yes 63% no 37%

      Bloomberg April 23rd 2019 yes 66% no 33%

      Scotland in union April 25th 2019 yes 68% no 32%

      Scotsman April 26th 2019 yes 65% no 35%

      Evening telegraph may 30th 2019 yes 75% no 25%

      Conservative party sacrifice Scotland poll June 18th 2019
      Yes 63% no 37%

      Panelbase June 24th yes 53% no 47%

      Is it any wonder when all these polls by mainly the British nationalists are showing independence in the lead over and over this year they hide the latest ipso mori poll because this is no surprise one little bit to me at all.

      ………………………

      WGD’s response to Robert Harrison’s post:

      ”Some of those are “voodoo polls” – for example the Telegraph, Scotsman, and Evening Times polls. They are not based on a representative sample of the population, and are self-selecting. Such polls don’t really give a true indication of what the balance of opinion is in the country as a whole. They’re about as accurate as the horoscopes that appear in the same papers.”

      ……………………………….

      ‘The redcoats are coming! They’re wearing grey suits!’

      https://peterabell.blog/2019/07/03/the-redcoats-are-coming-theyre-wearing-grey-suits/#comments

      ………………

      Andrew Dunlop. Looks as though someone has been on WIKi and removed some crucial facts!

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Dunlop,_Baron_Dunlop

      ……………….

      I’m really missing Nana and I’m sure that many who visit this site do too. Her contributions to this site were absolutely invaluable. To lose her at such a crucial time in our history, especially after working her butt off on here for years, is just diabolical, imo. Any chance of you holding out the olive branch Stu to entice her back on here? Whatever the case I hope that all is well with you and yours Nana X

    104. Breeks says:

      OT.
      Jeremy Hunt plans to bring back fox hunting.

      What a fkg lowlife. As if there’s not enough animal cruelty in the world as it is without these arseholes reintroducing a “sport” where a wild animal is hunted to the point of exhaustion then torn apart by dogs for “fun”. What the fk is wrong with these people???

      https://www.businessinsider.com/jeremy-hunt-promises-vote-repeal-ban-on-fox-hunting-2019-7?r=US&IR=T

      Seriously Scotland, it’s not just a hard border we need with England, it’s a fkg moat, with tank traps and landmines.

      It’s bad enough here with sick f__ks killing off our Eagle reintroductions for the “joy” of shotgunning pheasants and grouse for fun, but if that’s a 9 out of 10 for depravity, surely fox hunting ranks 10.

      Don’t forget, once out of Europe, UK animals are not sentient beings. The UK makes me sick.

    105. Marcia says:

      jfngw

      Bollox.

      Mhairi Black is reading out some of the offensive texts and tweets she received. That is not what I would consider ‘communications’.

    106. Essexexile says:

      Breeks@10.06am

      re foxhunting.
      Hunt says it is part of our heritage, presumably as an argument for reinstating it.
      Let’s bring back burning at the stake, physical mutilation for religious deviance too then. Oh, and slavery.
      He is only offering a free vote on it to woo the rabid blue masses of the Shires of course, but still.
      Regressive politics at its worst.

    107. Robert Peffers says:

      @Elmac says: 4 July, 2019 at 12:47 am:
      … Pay me a “visit” and make my day punks.£

      You may wait a very long time, Elmac. After my wife died I no longer had any need for a TV Licence so I never again renewed the licence. I also had no intention of engaging with the BBC, or their agents, in any way. My wife died in 2001.

      To date I now get a monthly threatening letter from, “BBC Licencing”, who are a private company with absolutely no legal powers whatsoever. These letters are getting increasingly threatening and have long been promising to send, “Officers”, (at any time of the day or evening), to investigate if I watch live TV.

      Yet to date, in spite of being housebound most of that time), no one has called to investigate. I did once get a card shoved through my letter box informing me that an investigator had called. Now at that time I was housebound but in daytime hours I sat within 3 feet of a large opening window outside of which are the 3 steps before my main door.

      I was a bit slow in my movements at that time but rose and opened the window but there was no one there and no one to be seen either on my property nor in sight on the road outside. The caller obviously had made a very swift get away in a vehicle. Since then only a monthly threatening letter carrying the threat of a search warrant being obtained and threatening not only a £1000 fine but costs and a payback of what I owed the BBC since I had not renewed a TV Licence.

      Be prepared for a very long wait but many, many threatening letters. I have enough of these letters to ask the Local Police to investigate these people who are stalking me, threatening me and committing the crime of coercion. Which, in Scotland specifically states that it is a crime to attempt to gain in any way, including money, with threats of legal action.

    108. ScotsRenewables says:

      What happened to Nana ??

    109. Petra says:

      Essexexile / Breeks ….”Bringing back Foxhunting”

      It probably is part of their heritage.

      ‘The Psychology of Animal Torture – Why would anyone want to deliberately inflict pain on animals?’

      http://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-excess/201611/the-psychology-animal-torture

    110. Dorothy Devine says:

      I think it is quite wonderful that Mrs May has decided to come to Scotland on INDEPENDENCE DAY and may I wish our American friends a happy day

      Mind you Treeza could have come on the 12th and had a wee stroll with her pals like the fragrant Arlene did last year.

      Right enough ,judging by her dancing she would most certainly had to have a wee practice or two.

      Nana is much missed but she is busy with other independence advancements .

    111. Scott says:

      O/T
      The arch unionist Dr Marsh of Aberdeenshire in the letter page of the Tory P&J is at it again not in so many words but we in Scotland are subsidy junkies who would never manage on our own.
      I think he should be doing an assessment on how England will manage on its own after we have left no one seems to do that.

    112. Petra says:

      @ ScotsRenewables says at 10:29 am …”What happened to Nana ??

      Maybe someone will dig out the relevant posts to highlight what happened ScotsRenewables. Sorry, I would if I could, but I can’t, as I’m a bit of an IT dummie, lol.

    113. galamcennalath says:

      Dorothy Devine says:

      quite wonderful that Mrs May has decided to come to Scotland on INDEPENDENCE DAY

      Aye, because she won’t be getting an invitation to OUR independence celebrations 🙂

    114. Rev, get on to LBC.

    115. Capella says:

      Fundraiser for the Emergency Kitten health care for anyone who would like to contribute:
      https://www.gofundme.com/help-with-lucy-the-cat

    116. Jeff says:

      twathater says:
      4 July, 2019 at 2:09 am

      Re. Scotrail website/NEC – I think the National Entitlement Card only gets you free/reduced travel on the bus network. If you are registered blind then there is a little ‘eye’ symbol with a line through it on the card, in which case you get free unlimited travel on Scotrail no ticket required – just show the card.

    117. Robert Peffers says:

      @brian lucey says: 4 July, 2019 at 8:47 am:

      ” … Have asked before and ask now. What’s Plan B if/when WM denies a referendum?”

      The First Minister has answered that question as has Ian Blackford.

      “There will be a referendum”, it could not be made clearer. It was also made clear that a section 30 Order would be requested and would be preferable but failing it being agreed, (Section 30 orders are not given they are agreed).

      No one needs permission to hold a referendum but referendums are normally, “advisory”, unless agreed beforehand. The Brexit Referendum was NOT agreed beforehand but is being treated by Westminster as if it was.

      So your question has been answered – why did you not know that?

      The SNP have said it loudly and clearly, “Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU against the will of the Scottish People”. Go look at Hansard. It has been said enough times in the Westminster debating chamber and is recorded in Hansard.

      There will be another independence referendum and the utter panic that Westminster is showing just now, (and their refusal to publish the report of their own survey), tells the story plainly.

      A majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland are now demanding independence but, “they do not want you to know that”.

      “It’s comin yet fir aa that.”

    118. BabsP says:

      That pretty much sums up the BBC and the MSM in general. Basically we’ll report one side of the story (the one that we approve of) and then “do not deem it necessary to go into further detail.” The lack of balance, nuance or even the simple fundamentals of the story is shameful – but certainly not accidental. Propaganda is dangerous – look at the racist attacks in England, the Brexit vote, etc. Carol Cadwalledr can complain about Facebook but maybe the corporate media journalists should take a long hard look in the mirror.

    119. Dr Jim says:

      The UK goevernment has already agreed to Scotland having a referendum when ever it chooses

      Smith Commission 27 Nov 2014

      Paragraph 18: It is agreed

    120. Dr Jim says:

      The UK Government has already agreed to Scotland having an Independence referendum

      Smith Commission 27 nov 2014:

      Paragraph 18: It is agreed that nothing in this report prevents Scotland becoming an Independent country in the future should the people of Scotland so choose

      Signed by all political parties

    121. Dr Jim says:

      Woops don’t know how that happened, sorry

    122. Proud Cybernat says:

      “Maybe someone will dig out the relevant posts to highlight what happened ScotsRenewables.

      This thread here:

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/call-answered/#comment-2467127

    123. Ian Brotherhood says:

      ‘Hard truth: the SNP are a trainwreck at the moment. If we let them, they’re going to blow the best chance of independence we’ll ever have.’

      Rev tweeted that approx 15mins ago.

      Well?

      Is he right?

    124. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Petra @ 10:02,

      I second (or “third”) your comment re nana. I found her references highly useful, and regularly followed through on many of them. I doubt that I’m alone in that. I really miss her!

      (I had the impression that she became frustrated with postings getting automatically shunted into “moderation” due to the amount of links. Maybe something was tweaked “behind the scenes” that impacted on her particularly heavily.)

    125. Capella says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood – As a member, I say no he’s not right. The Trans issue is certainly causing major upset – predictably – and apparently Kirsty Blackman didn’t annihilate some numpty on Sky News. But independence is rumoured to be now approx 60% YES.

      Keep calm and carry on IMO.

    126. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 12:23,

      Oooh, naughty, naughty, IB! That will get the usual defenders on the case, heh, heh.

      But without seeing the background to that quote, I wouldn’t actually agree. There will always be a faction wanting an indefinite delay, the absolute guarantee of success that will never come, but it’s all about awaiting the moment when ordinary people are most open to persuasion. I reckon that crucial opportunity will come towards the end of the summer, when all Remainer hope in the UK will have evaporated. Peter Bell wants IR2 in mid-Sept. If nothing is put in motion by then, I think we’ll have blown the chance. 2020 is way too late. Just my gut feeling, though.

      But the possibility of a UKGE has to be disposed of first. I still reckon that the Tories will funk that until after Brexit. They have too much to lose.

    127. Lenny Hartley says:

      Ian Brotherhead, never known the Rev to be wrong yet. Despite what auld Bob will post in defence, Sturgeon is proving innefective in controlling some of her Female Elected members who seem intent on destroying the chances of the demographic we need most Women over 55 coming onside. Latest comments by Mhairi Black case in point when it looks like her priority is allowing a couple of hundred transvestites access to Woman Only Areas such as Toilets rather than the big picture. Whilst Sturgeon may be a very good Peacetime FM what we need now is somebody like Joanna Cherry with a bit of fire in her belly. Sadly it aint going to happen possibily either is Independence with the current SNP Leadership. I will be thinking long and hard when my membership is due for renewal.

    128. Juteman says:

      @Ian Brotherhood
      The SNP have been too meek and mild for my liking, but we need to keep voting for them. Maybe they are taking us for granted?
      I would be wary of folk that call for a new party, or voting differently though. I suspect many are unionist trolls. Our strength has been the unity of the Indy vote, and if we split that, Indy is over.

    129. A C Bruce says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      4 July, 2019 at 12:23 pm

      ‘Hard truth: the SNP are a trainwreck at the moment. If we let them, they’re going to blow the best chance of independence we’ll ever have.’ (From Stuart on Twitter).

      I certainly hope they don’t blow this chance; it’s our best and, possibly, our only chance to free ourselves from Westminster rule.

      The party is coming across as toothless. They let opponents away with just about every lie they spout. The Rebuttal Unit was dire and was never updated. Laughable.

      I’m hearing more and more people are giving up their membership.

      Women’s support is certainly being lost as many are pissed off at the GRA debacle – that fire has just been fuelled by M Black’s video.

      There seems to be a complete lack of fighting spirit lately just when we need it. Alex wouldn’t have taken it.

    130. jfngw says:

      Well if we don’t get independence maybe we will be considered the most ‘progressive’ colony in the world. I think that may be enough for some of our current representatives, and such a plus for your career prospects elsewhere.

    131. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Lenny Hartley @ 12:45,

      Ach, if this is all about the self-ID thing again, I despair. I thought Shirley-Ann Sommerville had responded masterfully to that issue and parked it for due reconsideration, so the SG are clearly aware of the pitfalls. It would be a great pity then if anyone in the SNP is still banging on about it in public. That would be putting personal issues before the Main Goal.

      That’s the difficulty. We support the SNP for that one big reason, and don’t necessarily sign up to everything that everyone in the party believes in. It is indeed the proverbial “broad church”. I could see a time post-indy when the SNP might slough off some of its more radical elements.

      But that’s for then. We need to stay united until we achieve that one thing which makes everything else possible. And that does require a modicum (or more!) of self-discipline and good sense.

    132. call me dave says:

      Oooh, naughty, naughty, 🙂

      That’s what my chess programme says when I take back a move! 🙂

      I heard from an SNP supporter today, (we walked many miles leafleting when I was able), that independence was about 57%.
      I hope that’s true.

      Peter Bell’s post today is a warning to gird up our loins. Theresa isn’t bringing any comfort and joy we win the gither or hing the gither… no other options.

    133. Dr Jim says:

      Independence will happen when the people, whatever their reasons decide, it won’t happen by people shouting emotional opinions at each other as to how it should be done

      If the support is there then the SNP can only lose it,
      that would be the time to shout and not vote for them

      It’s crazy for some to suggest the SNP don’t want Independence, what good would that do them, nobody would vote for them again and that’s sort of not what politicking is all about

      On the other hand the Yoons are screeching the SNP want to impoverish Scotland by being Independent, again I say what would be the point of that, once again if they did that nobody would vote for them again and that would defeat the point of doing it

      The section 30 order will be demanded soon enough and the UK knows it cannot refuse or it’s see you in court because they’ve already agreed in their own documents (The Smith Commission) that they have to, because no matter how much they bleat about their one nation the fact is the UK is not one nation and their own Lord Advocate admits it

      There is no law that can keep Scotland within the Union should it choose to dissolve and divest itself of its relationship in that Union

      The UK is as much Scotlands Union as it is Englands

    134. galamcennalath says:

      IMO the only thing the SNP are doing wrong is to allow themselves to be a target. They are too much in the limelight right now. On the day yo day government of Scotland yes, but on the issue of independence the movement is much much more. Other people, other organisations.

      The MSM are being allowed to focus on the SNP too much.

      Remember Jeanne Freeman’s amazing interview with Andrew Neil in 2014 when she utterly wiped the floor with him. He began talking about the SNP and she shot him down by saying “you are confusing me with someone else”. She made clear she wasn’t a politician (then) and not even in the SNP. She was there to talk about the wider issue of independence not party politics.

      The YES movement in all its diversity needs to be more prominent. Capable folk like Rev Stu, WGD, etc should be in the public eye to a much greater extent. Organisations like Women for Indy etc need to get more media attention.

      Also, the Greens is pro Indy. The MSM go to great lengths to play down the Holyrood Indy majority and make out it’s all about the EssEnPee who are Baaad. The Greens need to speak out about Indy more.

      We are winning, we need more momentum and a wider attack front. The SNP have a day job and part of that is delivering IndyRef2. Campaigning and winning must involve the sleeping giant that is the wide YES movement.

    135. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 13:09,

      I have had much respect for Jeanne Freeman right from the first time I saw her speak at an early indy meeting when she was still in Women for Indy. She is both clear-headed and inspirational. I think she would be a great call for taking over Blair Jenkins’ mantle at the front of the coming IR2 campaign.

    136. Dr Jim says:

      Alex Salmond lost

      I think Alex is and was great but he lost

      Nicola Sturgeon swore that given the opportunity she would’nt just hold a referendum, she’d win it, because she said she never wanted to feel the pain of that ever again

      You can put a million marchers on the street and it will go undereported and unnoticed, you can shout till you’re blue in the face and the people who don’t want to know won’t hear it, a gazillion leaflets through doors will be tomorrows rubbish

      Independence will be won by making the English despise us enough to show openly how much they despise us, and in that the SNP have succeeded, they’ve pointed out clearly the type of Nationalism the English suffer from

      When the Yoons and sectarianists in Scotland finally realise that England couldn’t care less about them and would see them poverty stricken and jobless is the moment when good old fashioned pragmatism will take over and they’ll vote Yes or just not vote at all, and they’ll do it wae their lips tremblin, but they’ll do it all the same

    137. David P says:

      Today seems to be “batshit crazy Unionist” day, with both TM soon to be ex-PM and Jo Swinson pronouncing on “the union”. I’ll be damned if I’m going to give the Scotman my email address so that they can send me rubbish every second day, so does anyone have an archive link to the following:

      https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/jo-swinson-calls-for-devolution-revolution-across-the-uk-1-4959226

      Based on the headline alone, my reply to Ms Swinson would be that she should indeed be preparing for “a revolution”, but it will be entirely democratic and result in an independent Scotland, delivered through the ballot box.

      Secondly, the fly-in-fly-out visit of TMPM to Stirling to announce the review of devolution. Although it was flagged up extensively over the last two day, the web seems to have gone strangely quiet on the delivery and/or text of her speech. (Given her oratory skills, some would say that is a good thing!)

      But if someone could post an archive or a link to “the chosen one’s” latest musings, that would be excellent.

      Many thanks to all of the Wingers. D

    138. David P says:

      Explanatory note to previous post.

      “The Chosen One” is the name given to the maiden in the Rite of Spring who must dance herself to death to ensure the arrival of Spring.

    139. Capella says:

      @ David P – archive link:
      http://archive.fo/yVigN

    140. galamcennalath says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:

      respect for Jeanne Freeman right from the first time I saw her speak at an early indy meeting

      Yes, me too. She was one member of the panel on a YES roadshow. I thought she was amazing at the time.

      she would be a great call for taking over Blair Jenkins’ mantle at the front of the coming IR2 campaign

      I would agree she should play a very prominent part. My favourite for leading YES would be WGD.

      Jeane is now very much part of the SNP and Scottish Government. The YES movement is so much more than the SNP. The MSM try so hard to make out that it’s all about the SNP. Every effort has to be made to show the opposite is true – Yes is Scotland.

    141. Colin Alexander says:

      According to the Scottish Govt website, The Citizens’ Assembly is planned to run from “late Autumn to Spring 2020”.

      It might be pedantic but, seasons don’t start with capital letters, is that an example of lack of attention to detail?

      Will the SNP still be trying to sweet talk hard line Unionists into participating, whilst the UK Govt is dragging Scotland out of the EU, and tightening the noose on Scottish democracy?

      Wings and the wider YES movement are an inspiration. They are already campaigning and gearing up for the main campaign for Scotland’s democratic freedom.

      As for the SNP, I’ll let people decide for themselves. I’m not going to comment on the SNP. I don’t have a clue what they are doing with regard to independence, apart from this:

      On 25 June 2019 the DELEGATED POWERS AND LAW REFORM COMMITTEE discussed “the Referendums (Scotland) Bill (in private): The Committee considered its approach to the delegated powers provisions in this Bill at Stage 1 and agreed to; write to the Scottish Government; invite the Cabinet Secretary for Government Business and the Constitution to give evidence at a future meeting; and issue a targeted call for written evidence”.

      https://www.parliament.scot/S5_Delegated_Powers/Minutes/20190625_DPLR_minutes.pdf

    142. A C Bruce says:

      “When the Yoons and sectarianists in Scotland finally realise that England couldn’t care less about them and would see them poverty stricken and jobless is the moment when good old fashioned pragmatism will take over and they’ll vote Yes or just not vote at all, and they’ll do it wae their lips tremblin, but they’ll do it all the same”

      Did you hear the young Scotsman recently on an LBC phone-in saying he would get down on his knees and beg to keep the union together? At least some of them will debase themselves and even vote against their own best interests to keep Scotland shackled to the deadweight of the soon to be fascist state next door. I’m just not sure what that percentage will be. I hope it won’t be substantial.

    143. Lenny Hartley says:

      ScotsRenewables says:
      4 July, 2019 at 10:29 am
      What happened to Nana ??
      She had a fallout with the rev after he used the hamnmers on her for not following posting instructions, thnk she was repeating some stuff that wordpress put into moderation.
      They had a bit of a spat and she said she was offski and not coming back.
      Shame like most miss her links.

    144. Dr Jim says:

      Every country has Zoomers and there’s nothing any country, even if it was Utopia can do about them
      Idiots will vote NO because *The Queen* or religious mentalness, but there are idiots on our side as well who’ll vote YES because they want the return of Bonnie Prince Chuckle Brithers and an end to Melton Mowbrey pork pies

    145. Robert Louis says:

      Dear SNP,

      We voted you into office to gain our restoration of Scottish independence. Can you please, effing well focus on that one thing, instead of all the other nonsense – like all this gender p*sh.. Or to paraphrase the advice given to Bill Clinton during his election campaign, ‘It’s about independence, stupid’.

      Oh, and by the way, when you get a chance to speak on a national broadcaster, in the name of god, will you please stop putting up political lightweights who simply DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS, OR FOR THAT MATTER HOW TO HANDLE POLITICAL OPPONENTS. I mean honestly, for heavens sake. People have been telling you this over and over and over again, for years.

    146. Tatu3 says:

      At this moment in time the SNP should be saying what most YES supporters say: Independence FIRST and FOREMOST.
      Then, and ONLY once we have it, we as Scots decide on everything else, including this self ID thing.
      I cannot understand why they are not shouting this from the rooftops?
      The SNP get voted into power again and again, I think we can safely say that most think they are getting on with the Day Job. But I also think that NOW the day job should be agreed to be put on hold and the fight for independence brought to the fore.
      Independence First

    147. David P says:

      1.31pm – Many thanks to Capella.

      Let’s see what Ms. Swinson has to say for herself…

    148. Footsoldier says:

      At the 2014 referendum, as voting day approached – I waited and waited for the doors to be opened and Mons Meg brought out but it never happened.

      My main concern right now is there is no Mons Meg aka master plan brought to bear. Too much is being left to chance.

      There will never be a better opportunity than now and we need to know what the plan is. I will remain a member of SNP and donate as I feel appropriate but after decades of being a member, unless we lose again. Who is co-coordinating all these separate independence groups? Divide and rule – suits the unionists.

    149. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert Louis says: 4 July, 2019 at 1:55 pm:

      ” … Dear SNP,
      We voted you into office to gain our restoration of Scottish independence.” …

      Hey! You!

      Jist haud oan a minute.

      Wha’a this, “we”, ye speak aboot?

      Ye dinna speak fir me.

      Ah kin speak weel enuch fir masel an whan onyane starts tae speak fir me withoot my consnt Ah dinna read ony further.

    150. Clydebuilt says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      Sewing seeds of division exactly what Unionsts want

      Its not true to say Eck never made mistakes. He got the Currency wrong. Didn’t know how to tackle it. Niavely expected the BBC would act even handidly during the last weeks of campaign.

      Sturgeon isn’t infalliable but whilst support is rising, and the best is yet to come I’ll not be joining in a chorus of division.

      Don’t forget that Sturgeon started the process for Indy Ref2 in early 2016 just before May called her snap G.E. Not the action of a leader feart of action.

    151. Footsoldier says:

      Robert Louis 1:55 & Tatu3 1:58

      Spot on and also what a lot of people are saying including members of our local SNP branch.

    152. David P says:

      Although I haven’t read TMPM’s pronouncement from today’s press conference, reading between the lines of the pre-released quotes:

      TMPM intends attacking Scottish devolution by removing/compromising powers from above.

      Ms. Swinson suggests attacking Scottish devolution by forcing powers to be devolved to councils.

      The coordination of this is so obvious, it begs the question – Do these people think we zip up the back?

    153. Robert Peffers says:

      @Footsoldier says: 4 July, 2019 at 2:02 pm:

      ” … At the 2014 referendum, as voting day approached – I waited and waited for the doors to be opened and Mons Meg brought out but it never happened.”

      Perhaps just as well Mons Meg never got dragged out again. Last time they tried that to celebrate something the damned thing burst its barrel:-

      “Mons Meg was once seen as cutting edge military technology. Given to King James II in 1457, the six-tonne siege gun could fire a 150kg gunstone for up to 3.2km (2 miles). She is named after the Belgian town where she was made.

      In 1460, James II had Mons Meg hauled 80km (50 miles) to the siege of Roxburgh Castle. This was no small task: even a team of oxen couldn’t move her more than 5km (3 miles) a day. But the unlucky king was killed there when another of his cannons exploded.

      King James IV put Mons Meg back in action, first to attack Dumbarton Castle and then Norham Castle. She ended her fighting days in King James V’s navy, retiring around 1550.

      When Mary Queen of Scots married in 1558, Mons Meg fired a gunstone over the city in celebration: it landed in what is now the Royal Botanic Garden. Her barrel finally burst in 1681.

      After 75 years in England, Mons Meg made a glorious return to the castle in 1829. Cavalry and infantry escorted her from Leith Docks to Castle Rock.

      Mons Meg sits outside St Margaret’s Chapel, just beyond the Whisky and Finest Food Shop.”

      .

    154. galamcennalath says:

      Scotsman headline … “Tory leadership hopefuls promise to defend the Union as polls show a 50/50 divide”

      It isn’t their job to defend the Union, or whatever. The Union is supposed to be a bipartite agreement, it’s doesn’t belong to the WM government. The debate SHOULD be between Scots who want an independent future and Scots who wish Scotland to remain in Union.

      Not to put too fine a point on it – if is f’all to do with anyone outside this country.

      They want the campaign to be seen as being between the SNP and the UK. It should be seen as Yes and No factions within Scotland. It’s not even about Scottish Gov versus UK Gov.

      Once campaigning begins in earnest I’d like everyone on the YES side to take a hard line on this. They shouldn’t be afraid to tell non Scots that this is none of their business, butt out.

      That’s the way it should play out in an ideal world, however the reality will be London and English Tories in particular will become involved to protect their UK, or Greater England as they really see it. However, that doesn’t stop us highlighting that it amounts to external inference.

    155. Dr Jim says:

      I live in a street of around 50 or so pensioners, they’ve never even heard of gender issues because they don’t care, and truthfully the mass majority of people don’t care except the people involved who are flooding the Internet daily because they want their particular issue noticed, but the only ones noticing are themselves and some *journalists* who are attempting to make it a detrimental governmental issue, but it won’t work because not enough people are affected by it and like all tiny minority causes it will fade because everybody prioritises their own problems first

      It’s all down to percentages, the old the sick and the poor will always be the main issues, everything else is just a bit of noise for a fortnight and it won’t affect the SNP just like it won’t affect any other political party

      Truth be told the SNP has a pretty good record on equalities for people but there keeps being more people demanding more different labels for more different equalities and political parties can’t keep up with it let alone keep pandering to daily demands for addendums and amendments and ajustments on stuff the majority have never even heard of, and if they do start hearing too much of it might start demanding more equalities for themselves because they’ll feel everybody else is being paid more attention to than them

      The SNP as far as I know never promised everybody a Utopian land of milk and honey where the sun shines all the time and some things don’t go wrong, because they can’t, nobody can, but there is a difference with the SNP from all other political parties

      They’re trying to do stuff, the rest of them couldn’t give a monkeys, isn’t that why we want Independence so we have the powers and the freedom to not only try, but do

    156. Petra says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood says at 12:23 pm … ”‘Hard truth: the SNP are a trainwreck at the moment. If we let them, they’re going to blow the best chance of independence we’ll ever have.’’

      Rev tweeted that approx 15mins ago. Well? Is he right?”

      Why is STU making such a comment on Twitter which in turn is encouraging any number of SNP complainers to leave comments now?

      Is something happening that I’m not aware of? If not, I’m beginning to wonder what exactly is going on here. Support for Independence is rising and Nicola Sturgeon will announce a date in the very near future. Meanwhile she’s battling enemies on all sides and needs our support. All this doing is undermining her credibility and lessening our chances of achieving independence, imo: ”going to blow the best chance of independence we’ll ever have.’’

      Someone mentioned the ”trans” situation but that was kicked into the long grass for now. If it’s reared it’s ugly head again it’s no doubt being shoved down Nicola Sturgeon’s throat and she’s having to address whatever is going on.

      Anyway it sometimes seems that we are taking one step forward and two steps back. If Stu has a gripe why doesn’t he contact Nicola Sturgeon herself instead of going public with this kind of ”stuff’. It’s becoming a bit of a habit now. Any chance of us all standing shoulder to shoulder until we achieve Independence, just as the Unionists do?

    157. Scott says:

      Thank you for sharing your views about the future of TV licences for the over 75s. We fully understand there are strong opinions because this was a difficult decision.

      Since others have also contacted us making similar points, we are sending this reply to everyone to explain the position in detail. More information is also available at http://www.bbc.co.uk/age.

      Far to much in the rest of the reply just the usual BBC crap.

    158. Lenny Hartley says:

      Petra its an SNP MP who dragging the Self Id issue out of the long grass, Dr Jm you might not recognise it but this could be the issue that scuppers Indy. Why do you think the MSM is keepng quiet about some of the SNP Infighting on this issue ? You can ve sure that when its needed it will be dragged out of the long grass by a BBC, STV and the dead tree Scrolls and a tsunami of SNP bad will hit our screens the likes that you have never seen before. Not many undecided Woman are going to vote for a party or the policies of a party when scaremongering to the max on self ID and access to Womans only spaces hits the headlines. I have lost a lot of respect for Mhairi Black in dragging this out again, she and cothers are putting their own little personal battles ahead of our Country and People and they will never be forgiven if we dont get over the line due to their actions.
      Nicola Sturgeon should have clampeddown on this months ago that she hasnt is a worry and i hope she makes it clear to any SNP elected official that there is to be no more public comment until the consultation is completed. Petra going public with this stuff is the only way the membership can show its displeasure on the way the leadership of the party is conducting itself on this matter, dont come away with the pish and say take it up at branch level etc, its October until the conference. Action needs to be taken now.

    159. Ahundredthidiot says:

      Truth is, no one gives a shit about trans anything, its less than a 1% issue.

      less than 10% give a shit about LGB, so why care.

      Sooner everyone stops talking about it the better.
      or take ithead on and declare self ID as a mental illness

    160. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 14:23,

      If they sincerely cared about “defending the Union”, they would be back in England telling the folk there that the Scots have legitimate reasons for wanting away, and the only resolution is to treat them with due respect and implement all the promises made to them back in 2014. Instead these so-called “leaders” are assiduously pandering to English self-regard and exceptionalism, which is achieving the exact opposite.

      So they only have themselves to blame. As I (and others) have long said, the greatest destroyers of the Union are those who claim to love it.

      In fact they are lovin’ it to death.

    161. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Petra –

      I understand what you, Robert Peffers and others are saying. Hold the line, have faith etc.

      Likewise, I can see where Lenny and a host of other regulars are coming from when they voice serious concerns.

      None of us possess perfect knowledge of what’s happening in public let along behind the scenes, but if it’s reached the stage where Stuart Campbell is calling the SNP ‘a train wreck’ on Twitter, woe betide us if we don’t pay attention.

    162. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Re “The SNP is a bit of a train wreck at the moment.”

      This is situation normal for Scotland. In over 40 years at the coal face of sports-writing I think I have covered more “Oh Dear! Oh Dear! Oh Dear! Disaster for Scotland,” (as dear old David Francey used to say) moments for Scotland than most. It appears to be in our DNA.

      We really should be heading for Independence, at the “top of the green”, with a strong wind behind us. But, that’s not the Scottish way, the wind always has to be in our faces to some extent.

      We should remember, the SNP is, at the moment, somewhat divided. On the one hand, the Government arm of the party is trying to run Scotland effectively, with one hand tied behind its back – the “reserved” matters which impinge on its ability to tackle the “devolved” matters, while dealing with rampant “SNP Baaaddd” objections from its opponents.

      They don’t have alternative policies or plans, so they have to take every chance they can manufacture to make the SNP’s plans and policies look silly. Dealing with this amount of negativity and opposition is a full-time job.

      On the other side is the SNP – the party for Independence; dealing with the Westminster Unionist parties who simply refuse to interact with them on Independence, other than to say: “Now is not the time,” or “No Independence referendum.”

      Fighting on two fronts is liable to cause serious problems.

      What I think the SNP should have done, and still could and should, is put together a command structure of top people, whose sole purpose is getting and winning the Independence referendum.

      Wee Eck is doing a great job on RT, Angus Robertson is doing a great job on Progress Scotland. But, for me, they ought to be right inside the SNP command tent, keeping up the pressure for the Independence Referendum, and planning for it – so the SNP hits the ground running when Nicola calls it.

      I dare say, the Intelligence Service “sleepers” within the party hierarchy are cautioning taking our time, while those party officials who only want an easy time will also be saying: “Hold, hold,” but, it really is time we took the gloves off and goatintaerum.

      By the way, any bets that Nicola calling the Referendum will immediately be followed by a date for Wee Eck’s court appearance, timed to coincide with the peak of the Referendum process, being announced.

    163. sassenach says:

      How long before we have Britnats on TV saying things like
      “The SNP, and Indy, are dead – even the main online Indy site owner now says the SNP are a trainwreck”.

      I despair for Scotland – are we really the best losers in the world??

    164. Proud Cybernat says:

      “I despair for Scotland…”

      Do ye, aye?

    165. Robert Peffers says:

      @Footsoldier says: 4 July, 2019 at 2:06 pm:

      ” … Spot on and also what a lot of people are saying including members of our local SNP branch.”

      And what makes you think that perfidious Albion doesn’t have the brains to infiltrate local branches to do exactly what you do here on Wings, Footsoldier?

    166. Old Pete says:

      Why does Kirsty Blackman ever appear on the radio or TV ? She with great consistency can never fight her and Scotland’s corner. SNP don’t allow her to talk to the media again, we just can’t afford any more own goals.

    167. call me dave says:

      Has the Maybot spoken yet, this is some lunch she’s having?

      Probably timing the announcement so it hits the news just in time and so no time for the SGov to respond until later.

      Or maybe calling the whole thing off! …. Aye right!

    168. Cactus says:

      Invest yer energies he he here…

      The Achievers update (funding pages only)

      ayeMail:
      37.45% funded to date with £2,995.82
      https://donorbox.org/5-000-new-yes-flags

      iScot:
      8.2% funded to date with £4,934
      https://www.iscot.scot/crowdfunder/

      Phantom Power:
      4.8% funded to date with £960
      https://www.gofundme.com/f/future-scotland

      Wee Ginger Dug:
      48.6% funded to date with £4,860
      https://www.gofundme.com/f/wee-ginger-crowdfunder-2019

    169. Dr Jim says:

      @Petra

      I think you know what’s going on Petra, you’re not wrong

    170. Jack Murphy says:

      OT ?….Perhaps not, with May’s Brexit visit to Scotland today.

      Here’s The Telegraph England last November, but not published in their Scotland edition.

      ” Oil is Britain’s thin red line against a hard Brexit. The North Sea provided an economic buffer during the “winter of discontent” of 1978 and the “Black Monday” stock market crash, which almost destroyed the City a decade later.

      It may have to serve the same defensive purpose again if Theresa May, the Prime Minister, bungles a deal to leave Europe, or even worse, fails to reach an agreement.

      Often derided as an insignificant and declining industry by some economists, oil remains one of the country’s most reliable money spinners and sources of hard foreign currency export revenues.

      Think of what the UK would be like without the vast wealth generated by the equivalent of 44bn barrels of oil pumped………”

      Rest of article is behind The Telegraph’s Paywall.

    171. sassenach says:

      Proud Cybernat says:
      4 July, 2019 at 3:44 pm
      “I despair for Scotland…”

      Do ye, aye?

      I wish I could even understand what you mean with that cryptic remark!

      We are so close to our goal, and suddenly it appears that the Rev has ‘gone rogue’ with the train wreck comment (or am I misunderstanding something?).

      Most of us, surely, must see the SNP as the only hope for achieving Indy, and until we get there we should all be ‘shoulder to shoulder’ in support.

      Maybe there are some folk who have comfortable lives with the status quo and their MSP salaries -and others who work their socks off to get us where we want to be.

      But I just find it odd that the Rev should choose this time to offer such public criticism of the SNP.

    172. Dr Jim says:

      The usual Yoon Trolls are losing it now with threats appearing more and more, there’s even a couple on the FMs Twitter threatening her

      Sure sign we’ve just about won this, more people are wakening up and seeing the truth

      We need a big contingent turning up in Ayr on Saturday to show the folks down there it’s happening, try to get there if you can, it’s worth it and it’s a smashing day out as well

    173. raineach says:

      Now regarding all this chatter about a divided party and talk of people resigning membership because either the referendum date is not written in just the right shade of ink or because of gender self identification. I am an activist in an SNP branch with a sizeable membership. On votes on policy or national office bearers the membership tends to vote as does the party membership as a whole. Now on the date of the referendum there are those who favour early and those who favour late [I’m an early] but no-one is fretting about it at all. No-one. No-one is talking non-renewal of membership. And no-one is talking about self-identification. It does not even rate as a non-topic. The posters on this blog are slightly representative of the conversations about the timing of a referendum, and not remotely representative on self-identification. Which does puzzle me a little bit.

    174. galamcennalath says:

      I keep reading rumours that the undisclosed WM polling give Yes in the high 50s. Perhaps

    175. galamcennalath says:

      … sorry … perhaps that has no basis. However something has given their hornets nest a kick.

      It might be a high 50s with some scenarios … some likely scenarios.

      Anyways. It might be true. It wouldn’t surprise me. And if it’s true … we are winning, not losing, or stalled even.

    176. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Jack Murphy @ 4.16pm

      In one post, why England will never willingly let us go.

      They need our oil wealth, and they need to try to convince us that they don’t; that they subsidise us and we’df be lost without them.

      But, they’ve been found-out on that one, which is why they are shitting themselves at the idea of us going.

    177. Joe says:

      Cant help notice WOS twitter wondering why SNP are behaving as they are.

      Answer: because the promote globalist agendas on the strength of nationalist support.

      Solution: Scotland needs a centre-right pro indy party as an alternative

    178. Dr Jim says:

      If Scotland goes it takes it’s oil with it and England or the rest of the UK or whatever you want to call it has nothing to sell and the Engish pound sterling will drop to around 80 cents American

      Jim Rodgers Bloomberg

    179. Joe says:

      Oh yes, it suits the EU to have scotland as brexit leverage. If scotland just goes for indy at this moment that extra leverage is gone. Puppets to a different power now it seems.

    180. Joe says:

      Dr jim. Scottish people will never walk away from the union with the oil. Seriously

    181. sassenach says:

      Joe @4-38pm

      “Solution: Scotland needs a centre-right pro indy party as an alternative”

      Of course they do, split the vote and forget Indy forever – nice try!!! Now , why not go outside and play with the traffic.

    182. Robert Peffers says:

      @Tatu3 says:4 July, 2019 at 1:58 pm:

      ” … At this moment in time the SNP should be saying what most YES supporters say: Independence FIRST and FOREMOST.”

      The SNP has been saying that for 85 years Tatu3 and the country has to be run and Westminster would just love it if the SNP left it up to them. Furthermore, what is your evidence that most YES supporters say independence first and foremost?

      ” … Then, and ONLY once we have it, we as Scots decide on everything else, including this self ID thing.”

      Sheesh! Why the hell do you imagine the SNP called in the self ID thing for revue? Then why the hell do you think there are people, like you, stirring it all up again by continuing chuntering on about it on social media?

      ” … I cannot understand why they are not shouting this from the rooftops?”

      I’d say there’s rather a lot of things you don’t understand, Tatu3.

      ” … The SNP get voted into power again and again, I think we can safely say that most think they are getting on with the Day Job. But I also think that NOW the day job should be agreed to be put on hold and the fight for independence brought to the fore.”

      Oh! Aye! And all those who voted them in again and again as the best government for Scotland promptly decide to vote for someone else to run the country while the SNP are fighting for independence.

      Here’s a wee thought for you, Tatu3, could it be that the SNP are very capable of not only doing the day job but getting Scotland’s independence at the same time? Let’s examine the evidence, we have Davidson and the other unionist leaders all shouting incessantly about the SNP not doing the day job because the SNP are incensed with independence.

      Strange that the leaders of the Tories, Labour and LibDem parties all claim the SNP are NOT doing the day job because they are fighting for independence and here you are claiming they are neglecting independence by doing the day job.

      Yet the opinion polls are showing the people of Scotland are moving more towards independence and away from English rule.

      The Transgender lot are screaming all over social media yet the statistical evidence is that actual transgender people are a tiny proportion of the population.

      Now I’m neither for or against them but it seems to me there are a great deal more agitators than there are actual transgender people. Now just who, other than genuine transgender people, have motives for stirring that cup of tea up again?

      Especially as the SG have decided to revue the matter. Just who would want to keep that particular pot boiling?

      So there it is, the evidence points to the voters moving towards independence so whatever the SG/SNP are doing seems to be working yet here on Wings there are people claiming the SG are not doing their job but the evidence all says otherwise.

      The evidence says that not only are the SG running the country better than the rest of the United Kingdom but they are winning voters to independence and all three unionist parties claim the SNP are not doing the day job but are running the country badly by concentrating too much on independence.

      Something wrong somewhere but my question is just who does it benefit if people claiming to be yes supporters are running down the SNP/SG even more than the entire SMSM does. Oh! Wait! wouldn’t that be the unionists?

    183. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      I see the virtue boys over at the Cookdandbombd comedy forum have had a pop at the Rev (and the ‘zoomers’ who support him), in the topic that just keeps on giving about Graham Linehan’s anti-tranny twitter posts.

      CBB, you should register there and use your tepid academese to set them straight.

    184. Joe says:

      @Sassenach

      Sorry to say something that offends. But really i dont have the time nor the crayons to explain to you why it might be a good idea now

    185. Ahundredthidiot says:

      Joes a member of the peoples front for judea….or is it the judean peoples front….no…..the popular front for judea….

      oh Joe..

    186. Footsoldier says:

      Robert Peffers 2.13 Yeah gods, yet another history lesson! For even more lookee here

      http://www.kirkcudbright.co/historyarticle.asp?ID=191&p=29&g=5

    187. Petra says:

      @ Lenny at 3:07 pm …. ”Petra its an SNP MP who dragging the Self Id issue out of the long grass… I have lost a lot of respect for Mhairi Black in dragging this out again, she and others are putting their own little personal battles ahead of our Country and People and they will never be forgiven if we don’t get over the line due to their actions.”

      Thanks for the info Lenny. I’ll check it out. I agree with you that this could do our cause a great deal of damage and was the last thing that we needed right now. I’d hoped it would be left alone until after Indy and yes I can just imagine the MSM scaremongering headlines. On the other hand it’s gone ahead in England and doesn’t seem to make the headlines there, although I know there is a movement against it. And what is the news from the Republic? Any complaints? Playing devil’s advocate here.

      As to Nicola Sturgeon not clamping down? How do you know that she hasn’t? I would imagine that she would have put the word out, but I would reckon that it’s far from easy trying to control hundreds of politicians / councillors, etc. And of course when she attempts to do something like that she’s then accused of being a wee Hitler. I wouldn’t have her job for all the tea in China.

      When I said take it up with Nicola Sturgeon (or in our cases our SNP MP’s – Mhairi Black is mine) I meant email her, not wait for the conference in October. The thing is Lenny I know that many SNP members have complained already and that no doubt helped to delay dealing with the issue. That was clearly Nicola Sturgeon’s plan until the loose cannons came along. At the end of the day Nicola Sturgeon can’t be held responsible for every word that comes out of people’s mouths or their actions, sad to say.

      PS Where can I find Mhairi Black’s ”input” into this Lenny? On Twitter?

      …………………..

      @ Ian Brotherhood says at 3:14 pm – ”Petra – I understand what you, Robert Peffers and others are saying. Hold the line, have faith etc. Likewise, I can see where Lenny and a host of other regulars are coming from when they voice serious concerns. None of us possess perfect knowledge of what’s happening in public let along behind the scenes, but if it’s reached the stage where Stuart Campbell is calling the SNP ‘a train wreck’ on Twitter, woe betide us if we don’t pay attention.”

      Yes I do want us to ”hold the line” Ian (until we are independent) just as the Better Together crowd did / continue to do. Do you hear any of them running each other down to the ground? No, in fact far from it. They (May, Swinson etc) by the looks of it have been sitting, totally United, around the round table again planning what to do next. Other than clawing back devolved powers they now plan to use John Swinney’s Head of School policy and bypass the SNP Government altogether when it comes to our sweety-money budget.

      Stu by the way will be in the same position as us when it comes to knowing what’s going on behind the scenes. He’ll have no idea what Nicola Sturgeon has said, is saying, has done, is doing or planning to do. This isn’t the first time either that Stu has used Twitter (and ”reached the stage” on this site some time ago) to run Nicola Sturgeon down. Not to so long ago he tweeted that she ”would be held responsible if Self ID went ahead and anyone was r*ped.” Beggars belief.

      This wasn’t the best of days to do this either, imo, with Doris, Runt and Big T in Scotland attempting to pull the rug from under Nicola Sturgeon’s feet. How they must be rubbing their hands with glee, eh?

      …………………

      Dr Jim it’s as plain as the nose on your face. Let’s see how it all unfolds now.

    188. Republicofscotland says:

      Jeez oh, Anne Widdecombe has surely lost the plot.

      https://mobile.twitter.com/JamesMelville/status/1146739092182491137

    189. Dr Jim says:

      @Joe

      Why wouldn’t Scotland’s borders return to where they should be, Oil companies own the Oil rigs and rights to drill but the host country receives the revenue along with Scotland’s seas and assets, the UK of England doesn’t own the world’s seas, those are legally drawn territories agreed by the UN as has happened with all countries who have retaken or asserted their Independence

      You know that Scotland’s maritime border was moved from Berwick to Arbroath in a Labour Tony Blair deal in order to create English oil (not British) within that 6.000 square mile area, once that border is returned England will have no oil, possibly a little gas that falls outside Scotland’s jurisdiction

      I can’t imagine you believe England would attempt to threaten Scotland in any way because the rest of the world wouldn’t wear it and the position England will be in post Independence they can’t afford to argue with anybody because they need commerce and threatening people and countries doesn’t get you that, it gets you sanctions from the very club they’re in the process of leaving

      Post Scottish Independence England is pretty much a busted flush with it’s hand out begging for trade but reputationally a bad bet over its current behaviour, and on severe warnings and a six month get out notice from the UN over illegal occupation of the Chagos Islands not to mention it’s behaviour on human rights in regard to the creation of ideological poverty in the UK

      Boris can shout *Gunboat diplomacy* till he’s blue in the face it won’t work

      One other thing, post Independence Scotland’s seas and skies are governed by Scotland and if you want to sail through them or fly over them you must have permission from the host country or state, at the moment that is the UK, post Independence it’s Scotland who must be asked permission, just like every other country on earth

    190. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scott says: 4 July, 2019 at 2:56 pm:

      ” … Thank you for sharing your views about the future of TV licences for the over 75s. We fully understand there are strong opinions because this was a difficult decision …

      Want to know what will happen in the longer term over this issue, Scott?

      I’m well into my 80s now ant I haven’t paid for a TV licence since 2001 when my wife died. I just don’t watch TV and don’t miss it one bit. Many OAPs are in, or close to, poverty and they have three choices, stop watching TV, watch TV without a licence or chose either view, eat or heat.

      So over the longer term the BBC are going to cut their audience because the demographic is that there is an increasing proportion of elderly people and many younger people do not bother much about TV and after Brexit there will be even greater poverty than now.

    191. Legerwood says:

      Cactus says:
      4 July, 2019 at 4:09 pm
      Invest yer energies he he here…””
      ………..

      The Wee Ginger Dug has reached and passed his target. I think it is around £18,000 or so at the moment.

    192. Footsoldier says:

      Robert Peffers: 4 July, 2019 at 3:51 pm

      “And what makes you think that perfidious Albion doesn’t have the brains to infiltrate local branches to do exactly what you do here on Wings, Footsoldier?”

      Because the influx of new members after 2014 no longer attend our meetings and we are back to the hardcore supporters who have known each other for donkeys years.

      I am sorry but I simply do not agree with a lot of your posturings. As I have said in the past, I am trying to refrain from dirty washing in public and believe you me I really am. We are fortunate to have contact with a lot of “high heid yins” but I will say no more.

    193. Legerwood says:

      Petra @ 5.10pm

      There is definitely something going on and the return of the trans issue, after it was carefully parked by the SG, courtesy of this site amplifying the noises off from certain quarters is less than helpful.

    194. Lenny Hartley says:

      Petra its on the Rev’s twitter feed, if Sturgeon is a leader she would have let it be known to keep quiet on this issue, you should know by now it doesnt not matter what they do in England or anywhere else, if there is an SNP bad to be made it will be made very loudly.
      Iimagine the MSM will play it as not about Trans Rights but that any pervert could self ID as a woman and have legal access to Ladies spaces such as Toilets.
      Dr Jim, England does have oil and gas, not a lot of oil but there are land based wells.

    195. Dr Jim says:

      It’s getting to that time again when the people of the UK, that means all four countries start to recognise what each country owns and stop believing the England UK propaganda

      The entire Military services are owned by us all in varying percentages, The Military does not belong to England
      Overseas teritories belong to us all not just England

      Remember folks of the four countries, we all pay for these things not just England

      Are you beginning to see why the panic is reaching insane levels now with the Tories, when Scotland takes it’s Independence all these things become a negotiation, Scotland doesn’t just go away somewhere quietly, we’ve been paying for this stuff for over three hundred years to build this UK and when we go some of the furniture is ours or the value of it in return

      Debt was allocated to Scotland to pay for it

    196. Legerwood says:

      Amongst all this plethora of fund-raising activity what about the SNP and their funds?

      In the last 4 years the SNP has fought 2 Westminster General Elections – 2015 and 2017; a Holyrood Election in 2016 and Local Elections in 2017 which almost overlapped with the GE campaign in 2017 and the EU elections in 2019
      That would drain any party’s funds but especially a party such as the SNP which does not have any cohort of large donors as the other, Unionist, parties do.

      Do they have sufficient funds to fight a General Election if one is called after the Tory leadership contest as many think will be the case?

      The Unionist parties seem to be awash with cash. In the last few weeks I have received through the post: a glossy brochure from the LibDems promoting, among others, MS Swinson; a glossy, multi-page booklet from the Tory list MSP for my area again through the post; a glossy brochure from Nigel Farage and his European group through the post and finally a brochure from the local Tory Councillor – hand delivered in this instance but whether by an activist or by someone paid to deliver it I don’t know.

      Unlike the other parties the SNP no longer has any large donors of note and so are heavily dependant on their income from the membership. But that income may be declining if the claims of people on this site by people saying they are stopping their membership due, it seems, in large part to the efforts of this site in stirring the pot on the trans issue.

      So in all this fund raising activity perhaps spare a thought, and a few bob, for the party that is the only vehicle that can get us over the line.

      Do not starve it of funds – or manpower.

    197. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Joe @ 16:38,

      Among all your usual diversionary populist pish, a wee glimmer of light:

      Solution: Scotland needs a centre-right pro indy party as an alternative

      If such a party were able to capture the votes of former-no’s who could never bring themselves to vote for those SNP “radicals” =cough=, then why not? To that extent – and that extent only – I would disagree with sassenach.

      So go for it, my friend. You won’t get much joy on here, but you’ll have your own website to keep you occupied anyway, won’t you? =grin=

      (Oh, but maybe a centre-right party that would succeed in Scotland would be a bit too milksop for you anyway, wouldn’t it?)

    198. sassenach says:

      Joe says:
      4 July, 2019 at 5:01 pm
      @Sassenach ” But really i dont have the time nor the crayons to explain to you why it might be a good idea now”

      Stunning repartee, there, Joe ( though your written word is somewhat suspect!!).
      I would have thought you Britnats have plenty of time on your hands to fully explain things to us?

    199. twathater says:

      Golfnut and Jeff thanks for your replies re Scotrail and the NEC ( National entitlement card ) my wife went into Paisley Gilmour St and asked the staff there , it appears that the Scotrail cust service hotline is giving out wrong information ( not surprised ) which they are having to correct

      Anyway what came across is that a normal day return from Paisley to Ayr is approx £30 for 2 people but when you present your NEC cards at the ticket desks when you purchase them , which you must do , you then receive a 50% discount on the ticket price which would mean that it is £15 return for 2 NEC card holders , however going from past experience I will be keeping my fingers crossed the info is correct

      BTW you still cannot purchase them online and the staff did not know why the SG NEC card is not included in the drop down box which I will be asking the minister when I get time

    200. Cactus says:

      Hey Legerwood ~

      “The Wee Ginger Dug has reached and passed his target. I think it is around £18,000 or so at the moment.”

      That’s good news 🙂

    201. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Legerwood @ 17:34,

      An important point which may constrain the SNP’s actions more than they themselves would like, yet which we perhaps too easily forget. So, well-reminded.

      Come a campaign, though, some of us who are not members can and do still contribute, in due deference to their sterling efforts. And share in the joy of its successes, when they come. So the wider yes movement can play its (fund-raising) part too.

      Come a campaign.

    202. galamcennalath says:

      Dr Jim says:

      the position England will be in post Independence they can’t afford to argue with anybody

      England will be absolutely desperate to be recognised as the continuing state after Scottish independence. Although we talk for dissolving the Union and going our separate ways, England ( or whatever the new state is called) will have as it highest priority to retain its status. If the UK genuinely dissolves, London loses its UN Security Council seat. Like Scotland, it would need to reapply for all sorts of international memberships. They won’t let themselves become a second division state.

      I suspect this will be our biggest bargaining chips – acceptance on our part that we are leaving and the state we were formerly part of continues. They need our cooperation. I guess they need our good will to retain some of their much prized (often imagined) prestige and status.

      We will hold the cards, not London IMO. Oil? They will be kissing goodbye to that!

      All this, of course, is scaring the shit out of them. Good.

    203. Joe says:

      @ Sassenach

      No sorry, sass. Im not a britnat, im just not a mindless follower and have my own thoughts. As for time – well, some of us have got to work to pay the taxes that keep it all going :). Oops sorry, that makes me a Tory too ill bet. Cheers

    204. Legerwood says:

      Petra @ 5.10pm

      Here is the link to the Mhairi Black video. Having watched it I think there is a degree of misrepresentation going on as to its content and intent. Not sure when it was filmed.

      Perhaps not recently?

      https://mobile.twitter.com/mhairiblack/status/1146476340864081920

    205. Joe says:

      @ Robert J Sutherland

      Thanks Robert. You’ll see the sense i speak one moment of clarity at a time

    206. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      twathater @ 17:40,

      O/T Your info seems correct, though I am skimpy on the exact details. It may only apply within the Greater Glasgow region. My missus does this as a matter of course whenever taking the train.

    207. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Joe @ 17:48,

      =laugh=

      Well, you know what they say: truth will out!

    208. Lenny Hartley says:

      Ledgerwood according to the timeline it was posted by Mhairi Black yesterday, i think she has also misrepresented some comments, but that does not matter what matters is her lack of judgement in posting the video when the subject had been kicked into the long grass.

    209. CameronB Brodie says:

      “‘Hard truth: the SNP are a trainwreck at the moment. If we let them, they’re going to blow the best chance of independence we’ll ever have.’

      Rev tweeted that approx 15mins ago.

      Well?

      Is he right?”

      —-

      “Keep calm and carry on IMO.”

      —-

      Good advice but the woke-brigade need re-education, IMHO. 🙂

      FEMALE BY OPERATION OF LAW: FEMINIST
      JURISPRUDENCE AND THE LEGAL IMPOSITION OF SEX

      INTRODUCTION

      In 1949, Simone de Beauvoir shattered theories of sexual essentialism’ when she wrote, “[o]ne is not born, but rather becomes, a woman.”2 Since that time, feminist scholars and activists have generally differentiated between sex and gender, “with gender being to sex what masculine and feminine are to male and female. 3 In other words, “[a]s most feminist theorists use the terminology, ‘sex’ refers to the anatomical and physiological distinctions between men and women; ‘gender,’ by contrast, is used to refer to the cultural overlay on those anatomical and physiological distinctions.4

      The understanding of gender as culturally constituted represents an advance in feminist thinking over sexual essentialism, but this construction fails to question the origin of sexual categorization and the relationship that categorization has to the oft-referenced “anatomical and physiological distinctions”5 between those categorized as female and those categorized as male.

      In America, as in nearly all other cultures, sexual categorization occurs under the auspices of the law.6 This categorization begins at birth,7 when each person is categorized as either male or female.8 Opportunities are limited, obligations are dictated, and every societal interaction operates through the context of that initial legally-mandated sexual categorization.9 This categorization as either male or female is generally accepted because it is understood as reflective of an external reality: we are male or we are female; legal categories of sex merely describe this understanding.10

      https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/73965499.pdf

    210. Dr Jim says:

      @galamcennalath

      A lot of this stuff is what many folk have forgotten, every country needs allies and if you behave badly you lose allies, and just having a big gun isn’t enough anymore

      The whole Brexit debacle has made it clear to many politicians but the people especially of England haven’t realised what they’ve gotten themselves into, the waving of the Union flag as a reason alone for exceptionalism will not serve them well

      In Scotland the Saltire to us is a symbol of who we were and are, not a banner of Imperialism to be feared like the way they use the Union flag

      None of this will end well for England, they’ll be in trouble for a long time behind the promises of evil men

      I don’t suppose we’ll complain to much though, and they can’t ever say they were’nt warned, Scotland’s First Minister did all she could (I’m saying that with sarcastic irony)

    211. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Reluctant Nationalist @ 16:52,
      (CameronB Brodie @ 17:54)

      You may say that, RN, but I couldn’t possibly comment! =wink=

    212. twathater says:

      RJS thanks for that ( possible ) confirmation , looking forward to the AUOB Ayr march

    213. CameronB Brodie says:

      Reluctant Nationalist
      Got any fact to support your prejudice or are you simply a bigoted dick with a PhD in Psychology, allegedly ?

    214. CameronB Brodie says:

      Robert J. Sutherland
      And you can do one as well.

    215. Petra says:

      @ Cameron at 5:54PM…

      Folks on here are complaining about Mhairi Black keeping the ”trans” ball rolling. Any chance of you giving us (me) a break in relation to the subject?

    216. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      CameronB Brodie @ 18:11,

      Sorry Cam, just couldn’t resist. My bad. Only some levity, no offence meant.

    217. CameronB Brodie says:

      Petra
      I’ll drop this like a stone, once the SNP sort out the issue internally. Do you think Mhairi Black’s conduct acceptable, or in any way productive?

    218. CameronB Brodie says:

      Robert J. Sutherland
      No probs. but this is a very strange, ‘post-truth’, time we are living through. It’s hard to see the wood for the trees. 😉

    219. jfngw says:

      Here’s a gem from Theresa May:

      while others can be relied upon to negotiate in good faith, not true of SNP

      This is the person who negotiated a withdrawal agreement with the EU with no intention of ever sticking to it, has ripped up the devolution agreement and removed Scotland’s devolved powers that were voted for overwhelmingly by the people of Scotland.

    220. Republicofscotland says:

      The ultra unionist STV news just can’t stop attacking the Scottish NHS. This time safety checks on the ventilation system showed a problem, and the opening of an arm of NHS Lothian will run overtime.

      Cue STV news doom and gloom with regards to the Scottish NHS. I could’ve swore blind that I saw a hint of glee from the so called STV reporter, with regards to the story.

    221. Robert Peffers says:

      @Lenny Hartley says: 4 July, 2019 at 3:07 pm:

      ” … Petra its an SNP MP who dragging the Self Id issue out of the long grass … “.

      Do you imagine we don’t know what is going on, Lenny?

      You totally miss the point. The point being that because one SNP MP gives their opinion doesn’t mean it is SNP party policy and even more to the point SNP MPs are not part of the Scottish Government and it is the SNP SG’s business that is concerned with the self ID Matter. In point of fact the SG are examining the Self ID matter with a view to amending the Westminster ACT that deals with the matter.

      … Dr Jm you might not recognise it but this could be the issue that scuppers Indy.”

      No it won’t for those making it up front on social media have ulterior motives. I already posted a few actual facts. All evidence points to actual transgender people being a tiny proportion of the population yet the background noise being generated is way over what that tiny minority could kick up.

      The only reasonable conclusion is that there are other people with a different agenda making all the background noise.

      ” … Why do you think the MSM is keepng quiet about some of the SNP Infighting on this issue ?”

      What infighting would that be, Lenny? You just said it yourself – it is an SNP MP that has resurrected the matter but that is Westminster and SNP MPs are not Scottish Government and the Scottish government has made the decision to review the matter.

      ” … You can ve sure that when its needed it will be dragged out of the long grass by a BBC, STV and the dead tree Scroll”

      But it isn’t the broadcasters or the SMSM is it – it is the usual suspects on Wings and the rest of Social Media and if you haven’t cottoned onto their motives and not so hidden agenda by now you must be sleeping or something.

      It is the very same not so hidden agenda that constantly drips anti-FM/SG/SNP BAAAAADDDDD pish all over Wings and the rest of social media.

      Just consider some of the pish on this very thread today. Total illogical bullshit. The facts are that recent opinion polls and the Westminster poll that is not being made public that has made the unionists panic indicates that YES is well in the lead and that means the voters not only vote for the SNP at Westminster and the EU but have returned a YES majority at Holyrood and thus SNP support is continuing to grow.

      Yet suddenly this transgender self ID thing is being dragged into the front and Wings is choca with so called Wingers claiming the SG/SNP and FM are both failing to do the day job and failing to push independence. I’m sure they are more than capable of doing both – and doing it extremely well.

      How come then that SNP support and YES support is growing and opinion polls are showing they are doing so but these people are claiming otherwise?

      Not only that but your implication that Scottish women are stupid is insulting to our ladies. They are rightly I’ll tell you my opinion shall I? I may be wrong but it has long been my opinion that the ladies here on wings a very bright and knowledgeable group of individuals and often leave the males trailing in their wake. Many women took longer to come over to the idea of independence but when they did they had considered the matter in detail before they made their minds up.

      You cannot blame them for being worried about the loss of hard won rights sometimes only recently gained but if the statistics from the medics is true then actual transgender people are a tiny proportion of the population and, if I’m reading the matter correctly, it isn’t going to be a matter of some male just saying I’m female and going into safe female areas.

      It will be a matter of a longer and more secure convincing of professional practitioners they, the transgender people, can prove, both physically and psychologically, they are genuinely transgender people.

      In any case this current background noise is utter rubbish – as I pointed out a Westminster MP is not the Scottish Government. There isn’t a political party in the British Isles where every elected member holds the exact same views on everything as every other member. What’s more the present background noise is coming from, (allegedly), independence supporters.

    222. Petra says:

      Legerwood I’ll check out the video later. In a rush.

      ……………………………

      Willian Hill’s closing 700 shops now.

      ……………………………

      @ Cameron … ”Petra, I’ll drop this like a stone, once the SNP sort out the issue internally.”

      How will you know when the SNP have ”sorted out the issue internally”, Cameron?

    223. Petra says:

      That should read .. ”William Hill.”

    224. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Theresa May: “The SNP are separatists who cannot be trusted to negotiate in good faith,” says an Englishwoman.

      England, the nation famed around the world as Perfidious Albion and for waiving the rules.

      They really don’t do irony.

    225. CameronB Brodie says:

      Robert Peffers
      “But it isn’t the broadcasters or the SMSM is it – it is the usual suspects on Wings and the rest of Social Media and if you haven’t cottoned onto their motives and not so hidden agenda by now you must be sleeping or something.”

      I hope you’re not having a sly pop at me there. Just in case you are, what’s your frame of reference, if that isn’t a personal question? Any knowledge of feminist jurisprudence?

      Gender and the Law
      https://lawguides.scu.edu/c.php?g=5717&p=25106

    226. CameronB Brodie says:

      Petra
      When ignorant ideologues like Black and Hunter conduct themselves in a grown-up and respectful manner to gender-critical voices.

    227. Legerwood says:

      Robert J. Sutherland @ 5:44 pm.

      It was a couple of articles in the Herald over the past few months that really brought it to my attention and those glossy brochures served to further highlight the problem together with the sudden explosion of fundraising by various groups.

      I am not a member of the SNP but will certainly donate if and when required.

    228. Robert Peffers says:

      @Joe says:4 July, 2019 at 5:01 pm:

      ” … Sorry to say something that offends. But really i dont have the time nor the crayons to explain to you why it might be a good idea now.

      I’ll just bet you don’t. Thing is, Joe, we’ve heard it all before.

    229. Capella says:

      @ Robert Peffers – “The only reasonable conclusion is that there are other people with a different agenda making all the background noise.”

      You’re quite right Robert, they’re called “women”. I’m one of them. Women are not a minority. Women make up 52% of the VOTING population. I will not vote for a party that plans to remove my rights, which would be the direct result of the course of action the SG published on their website.

      Yes they have stepped back from the brink. Relief. But if you want people to shut up about this issue then the best course of action is to ensure that the SNP understands that this is a major vote loser.

      The only reason there hasn’t been a public tsunami of outrage so far is because most people know nothing about it. But, as Lenny Hartley points out, that ignorance will certainly be removed as soon as a campaign starts.

      If women, their husbands and partners, their children and parents, are to vote SNP then the SNP will have to deal with this issue. Mhairi Black is still in the SNP AFAIK.

      Stu has been posting about the trans issue since at least 2013. He has been under constant attack for his stance against Self ID. Stu is not a member of the SNP and can’t vote SNP. But he is an astute observer of the political landscape. He is quite right to point out the toxic misogynistic nature of the Gender Recognition Act 2004 and its aftermath.

      The GRA 2004 is a WESTMINSTER Act which was adopted in Scotland under the Sewell convention. Labour were in power in both Westminster and Holyrood at the time. It enshrines in law a scientific impossibility i.e that a human adult can change sex. It is a travesty of biology. But it is not an SNP act and they are not obliged to take ownership of it.

      Those who want to understand some of the background could read the “One Week in the War on Women” post and comments.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/one-week-in-the-war-on-women/

    230. Clapper57 says:

      Looks like the TV media news channels all excited about Maybot’s visit to Scotland today…….NOT….no big build up on ANY news channels anticipating what she would say….BBC cut her ‘live’ speech off…talking over her…”we’ll come back to that later” the news presenter said….really ??

      What ?..like…when she’s finished talking ?

      She is obviously not Farage enough …or perhaps the subject matter is just too boring and unimportant…or perhaps it is just so friggin obvious a tactic that even the media are embarrassed by this Unionist stunt….like it’s so…. oh so NOW you’ve noticed Scotland ain’t happy with Brexit…NOW..you did not realise that before NOW when you were the anointed chief Tory mug…sorry PM ….who volunteered to hold the Brexit poison chalice as post EU Ref PM …well that’s like so so very very very credible…NOT.

      Maybe a certain recent poll on the (lack of ) support for the Union in Scotland and which you have decided to keep the result of under wraps….we see you ….we always have…and always will……not too little too late…….just never enough…and never will be…..not while we in Scotland are chained to WM and the Unionist rogues that serve but one nation in this non Union….Hey May now is not the time for you to come up here spewing obvious claptrap about your (not) precious Union…you are a zombie PM so get your arse out of my country and do not insult the intelligence of those of us who want you to stick your Union where the sun don’t shine….and take your useless Councillors, MSP’s and MP’s with you.

      Now we have BOJO and Jeremy C in Scotland to look forward to tomorrow…now they really really really do LOVE Scotland …..NOT……some of their best friends once ate a haggis you know with Irn Bru…and a Tunnocks teacake for pudding…though the pudding was easier to digest as it had more of a Unionist flavour to it.

    231. Robert Louis says:

      I see that old witch Theresa the Tory Liar May, has been up telling Scots what is good for them today. As usual all the usual unionist lies (I do wonder if creatures like her do actually believe the lies they spout about Scotland?).

      One particular unionist deception is to assert (as the witch did today) that the treaty of 1707 formed ‘Great Britain, but later with the addition of N.Ireland we then had the United Kingdom. It is nonsense.

      Article 1 of the treaty of union states; “That the two kingdoms of Scotland and England shall, upon the Ist day of May next ensuing the date hereof, and for ever after, be united into one kingdom by the name of Great Britain, and that the ensigns armorial of the said United Kingdom be such as Her Majesty shall appoint…”.

      And in article 2 it states “That the succession to the monarchy of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, and of the dominions thereunto belonging, after Her Most Sacred…”.

      Article 3 states “That the United Kingdom of Great Britain be represented by one and the same Parliament…”.

      My bolding.

      So, what actually happened? The treaty of union of 1707 formed the ‘United Kingdom of Great Britain’.

      With the theft or annexation of N.Ireland from Ireland in 1922, when Ireland became independent (1921), N.Ireland was treated like the successor state of all Ireland, and since Ireland had until 1800 been part of the United Kingdom, it was just adopted as, United kingdom of Great Britain and N.Ireland (1927),

      So, the notion perpetrated by unionists that the 1707 treaty just created ‘Great Britain’ and that the United Kingdom was created later, with the addition of N.Ireland, is false. The treaty of 1707 created the United Kingdom of Great Britain.

      That is why your UK passport to this day, states ‘The United Kingdom of Great Britain and N.Ireland. It is the UK, formed from the treaty of 1707, PLUS N.Ireland. Otherwise it would just be ‘The United Kingdom’, since no other individual countries or territories are mentioned.

      It suits unionists, to perpetrate this lie, as it fits a nice narrative that the union was always changing, and that really the union between England and Scotland of 1707, was just a small part of it. Make no mistake, the United Kingdom was founded with the treaty of union between Scotland and England (which included Wales) of 1707.

      Incidentally, for the benefit of the witch from London, the so-called ‘union of the crowns’ of 1603, was merely a case of a single monarch being heir to both the English and Scottish crown at the same time. The crowns were not united, nor were they merged. Again, it suits unionists to imply that the crowns were merged since 1603, but it just is NOT true.

      Do unionists ever tell the truth???

    232. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Capella (6.59) –

      I hope you will consider re-posting that comment on the new thread.

      Could be a long night…

      🙁

    233. Robert Peffers says:

      @:Capella says:4 July, 2019 at 6:59 pm:

      ” … “You’re quite right Robert, they’re called “women”. I’m one of them. Women are not a minority. Women make up 52% of the VOTING population.”

      I’ve no idea where you are coming from, Capella, but where ever it is it sure as hell is not anything I said or even implied.

    234. Capella says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood – will do. After I’ve had ma tea – which is oot 🙂

    235. CameronB Brodie says:

      Robert Peffers
      Capella can reply for her self but from my perspective, you were dismissing the justified concerns of women in what appeared to be a tribal defense of your party. I’ve also noticed you have sly wee digs at my contributions, in what appears to be an effort to discredit my input. My advice to you is mind yourself, or I might start deconstructing your potted understanding of reality, which is pants btw.

    236. Tatu3 says:

      Mr Peffers.

      “Furthermore, what is your evidence that most YES supporters say independence first and foremost?”
      Why wouldn’t Yes supporters support Independence? If they were against independence then they’d be No voters. I did say “most” and maybe there are some Yes supporters who’d rather have everything to do with the monarchy v republic, gender ID…and all the other stuff decided on BEFORE independence, but in my opinion, (but maybe not yours and unlike you I respect that you are entitled to your opinion) most Yes supporters would be happy to get independence first, then sort out the other stuff later.

      And I am not stirring it up again. I have never mentioned Gender Recognition before! Mhari Black is the one stirring it up again. She should have refrained from bringing it all up again until we have independence. Again in my opinion.

      “And all those who voted them in again…. as the best government for Scotland promptly decide to vote for someone else to run the country while the SNP are fighting for independence.”
      Why would people not vote for the SNP if they were to come out fighting for independence? What a stupid statement to make.

      Just because I think differently to you. Just because I have different opinions to you. Does not make me a supporter of the union.

      You come on here and take little bits of other’s comments out of context then ridicule the poster so that you can say the same old stuff over and over again. No one is ever allowed to voice a different view to you.

      You may be in your 80s and you have been an SNP voter/member for decades, but it doesn’t make you any more knowledgeable about the fight for independence than any newbie. And age doesn’t give you the right to be rude to people.

      There may be lots of things I don’t understand, but I do understand that you, Mr Peffers, are a very rude man.

    237. Capella says:

      @ Robert Peffers – you wrote:

      All evidence points to actual transgender people being a tiny proportion of the population yet the background noise being generated is way over what that tiny minority could kick up.

      The only reasonable conclusion is that there are other people with a different agenda making all the background noise.

      Yes, transgender people are a tiny minority of the population. But there are a great many other advocates of transgenderism lobbying hard for Self ID.

      On the other hand there are the women, and men, standing up to protect the rights of women and girls. That is why it is making a “noise” on social media. I was just pointing out that many of the voices are women, fighting to protect their rights.

    238. Ahundredthidiot says:

      Capella

      Fighting to protect the hard won rights of women is fundemental and politicians would be clever to repeat that over and over again when dealing with any self id or trans issue – which directly threaten and challenge those rights. Women are not men. Men are not women.

      Womens rights, first, second and last.

    239. Truth says:

      So the BBC is clearly in breach of its Charter is it not?

      Why then should anyone pay the licence to fund it? They have broken the contract so we no longer pay.

    240. Terry callachan says:

      Scottish independence will come , it’s just a matter of time.

      In the meantime there will be many subjects where independence supporters cannot agree on the best way forward

      However I would hope that if you support Scottish independence , you support it above all else
      only by doing so can you live to see all subjects discussed and decided by people in Scotland and an end to Scotland having to accept the views decisions policies and governments chosen by that neighbouring country England.

      Always remember that in an independent Scotland our country will decide its future itself
      Being in the EU
      Using the euro
      Using the Scottish pound
      Using the English pound
      LGBT rights
      NHS spending
      Education spending
      Housing
      Trident
      Green new deal
      Land ownership/reform
      Ferries
      Airports
      Etc etc etc

      We in an independent Scotland will make decisions about how Scotland will take these issues and others forward we will NOT have England dictating to us anymore.
      But we must get independence first

    241. Graeme says:

      test tag test1
      test tag test2



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