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No-Independence Day

Posted on July 04, 2019 by

I went for a very long walk before writing this post, because I wanted to make sure I wasn’t doing it in the heat of anger. But 8.5 miles and 18,753 steps later it still needs to be said and there’s no getting out of it, so batten down the hatches, folks.

Last night SNP MP Mhairi Black tweeted what may be the most ill-advised, destructive, offensive, repellent and just downright idiotic thing that I’ve ever seen an elected SNP member do. (Maybe not just the SNP.)

The video, bizarrely made for the amusement of readers of comedy lad-mag website, sees Black reading out a series of supposedly “transphobic” and “mean” tweets – almost all from women and only two of which were in any way rude – and reacting to them with a toxic mixture of arrogant condescension, mockery and insults, alongside a tirade of flatly wrong and endlessly-debunked myths.

It concludes with the smirking, sniggering suggestion that women, including survivors of male violence, who’ve expressed their serious concerns over reforms to the Gender Recognition Act – concerns shared by the overwhelming majority of women, and of the population as a whole – are “Jeremy Hunts”, a piece of rhyming slang that doesn’t need any translation.

The video pretty much speaks for itself, unfortunately, but let’s look at some highlights.

The first “transphobic” or “mean” tweet comes from Pam Forsberg.

The tweet is clearly neither of those things, but Black responds with her face contorted in sheer disgust at this outrageous request and shamefully misrepresents the tweet – which was specifically about “intimate spaces” like toilets and changing rooms – as a demand for “a room alone wherever you go”, chiding Forsberg that “that’s just not how the world works” and that she should presumably expect to have penises swinging in her face at all times. She’s “honestly very friendly”, you know.

The next woman in the firing line is called Chrisoula Drakopoulou:

Her tweet does contain a very mildly rude phrase (“take your head out your ass”), but otherwise makes a perfectly reasonable statement of opinion that people should not be able to change sex in law (since humans, y’know, can’t actually change sex), but the woman gets called “transphobic” and a “bigot” for her view founded on basic scientific fact, with another series of incredulous and contemptuous expressions designed to clearly convey that Black thinks Drakopoulou is loathsome scum.

The next perfectly civil question comes from J J Shields (sex unknown):

Autogynephilia (AGP) is a well-documented psychiatric condition in which men are sexually aroused by the thought of themselves as women.

And for which it’s laughably easy to find hundreds and hundreds of clear examples on social media. (Click image to read text.)

Absurdly and without giving any sort of reasoning, Black dismisses the entire concept of AGP as “old school homophobia rebranded”, because if there’s one thing we know about gay men it’s that they all like to dress as women and fancy themselves, right?

She then rattles off a list of supposed statistics about transwomen, every one of which is entirely untrue.

The oft-cited suicide figures for trans people are pure junk science. As for murder, a Channel 4 Fact Check from last November found that trans people were (per capita) approximately five times LESS likely to be murdered than the general population, and significantly less likely than either “cis” men or natal women.

If you’re a man, you can actually reduce your statistical chances of being murdered by an impressive 80% simply by putting a frock and some lipstick on.

The video goes on for several more minutes in the same style, including a bit where Black ironically accuses someone else of misrepresenting statistics, before concluding with some wild allegations about “a group of core transphobes” (presumably including her own gender-critical SNP colleagues like Joan McAlpine and Joanna Cherry) and the “Jeremy Hunt” line. You get the idea.

So it’s all unutterably, massively dreadful. But so far so what? It’s just one person’s opinion, isn’t it? Well, not so much when it gets retweeted by the official SNP account.

At this point, readers might like to entertain themselves with the hypothetical scenario where a male SNP MP had made a video reading out some pretty innocuous tweets from trans rights activists, before sneering and mocking and abusing them.

Given that the party has thrown countless elected representatives under the bus at the mere suggestion of any wrongdoing – Mark McDonald, Neil Hay, Michelle Thomson and more – it seems fair to imagine that their feet wouldn’t touch the floor.

Yet here’s Mhairi Black attacking and insulting the majority of the people of Scotland, the majority of SNP voters and the majority of women, and her own colleagues, in a staggeringly aggressive and obnoxious manner, without so much as a tut – indeed, with an implicit official endorsement.

And as we struggled to think of an explanation for this blatant and indefensible double standard, a couple of comments from readers on Twitter struck home.

There have been rumblings in the SNP grassroots for a long time that the party was altogether too comfortable with devolved power, prompted in particular by its lack of activity towards securing a second indyref and its curious commitment to invalidating its own mandate for one by preventing Brexit.

But the party’s behaviour in the last 12-18 months, especially but not solely in relation to the gender debate where it seems hell-bent on catastrophically alienating the female vote, has added fuel to the fire.

Spend five minutes on social media and you’ll trip over hundreds of variants on the comment “We need the SNP to get independence so I’ll keep voting for them until we do, but never again after that”, for various reasons. But what if the SNP has been reading them and working out what they mean?

As things stand, there’s no serious threat to the party’s hegemony in Scotland for the forseeable future. The Unionist vote is splintered and the Unionist parties are barely-functional jokes, torn apart by Brexit and a whole raft of other things. Polling shows the SNP comfortably winning the 2021 Holyrood election by a double-digit margin, and perhaps returning 50+ MPs again should there be a UK general election soon.

We couldn’t tell you how many times we’ve been privately told by insiders – ironically including sources very close to a certain Mhairi Black – that a significant section of the party’s Westminster MPs are enjoying the glamorous London life a little too much, and wouldn’t be unduly bothered if they had a 30-year career there on a nice fat £80K-plus-expenses salary without ever achieving independence.

So we’ve arrived at a situation where a rational, reasonable argument can be made that independence is in fact the greatest threat to the SNP’s hold on power. In a Scotland where the constitution was no longer the defining issue, the party and its vote might splinter along many lines – left/right, Leave/Remain, radical/centrist and others.

Its domestic dominance would be at an end, and all its Westminster MPs would be out of a job and fighting like rats in a sack with MSPs for Holyrood seats. It would also have a huge impact on the party’s finances in terms of Short money – the 2015 election saw its payout rise by over £1m a year, which is serious cash in SNP terms (nearly a fifth of its annual income) and would all vanish overnight with independence.

Readers, we don’t want to believe that’s the case. Really and truly. It’d be a shattering blow. But faith in the SNP among its own members and supporters is now worn so thin that many already do, and yesterday’s appallingly cretinous fiasco might be the straw that breaks the back of many more.

If no disciplinary action is taken against Mhairi Black, the leadership will have proven itself to be hypocritical, reckless and unfit for purpose and should step down, and the sooner the better. We have no more time to waste, and enough is enough.

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  1. 06 07 19 11:37

    That banner, so what ! | Grumpy Scottish Man

463 to “No-Independence Day”

  1. Juteman says:

    Fuck me, Wings has turned into The Daily Mail!

  2. Bill Glen says:

    Like you, she is entitled to Give an Opinion,, As for Faith, it’s strong and Getting Stronger, And naw, i Aint an SNP Member,

  3. Time to get brutal. If indyref2 is not delivered in the lifetime of this parliament SNP will lose my vote forever.

  4. Sal Clynder says:

    Are you totally sure it is Mhairi and not one of those computer generated images causing outrage in the states?
    It just doesn’t sound like anything she would do.

    Thankfully independence is about more tham the SNP as the Indy movement is far bigger than the party.

  5. Grendel1970 says:

    Finally you’ve noticed!
    The SNP are FAR too comfortable, only campaigning when required to for elections out of self interest, and never just for the basic idea that Scotland should be independent.
    Power corrupts, and the SNP have clearly shown themselves to be no different.

  6. mogabee says:

    This is so serious and I am on the verge of leaving the party.

    I keep hoping that someone, ANYONE listens to all the concerns about this proposed legislation, but so many are just making it worse that your argument certainly has merit.

    What a fucking mess.

  7. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    I am honestly troubled by this, Miss Black needs to apologise.

    The SNP must have a quiet word with its self,it should not get involved in this nonsense.

  8. Wulls says:

    I agree her rant was I’ll advised at best but she was not purporting to represent the SNP.
    Her rant….Her responsibility.
    To be honest I thought she made some good points but I’m betting she regrets it now.
    Reckoning her feet won’t touch.

  9. Conan the Librarian says:

    Another People’s Front of Judea moment…

  10. Graham A Fordyce says:

    I don’t have anything like the knowledge and insight that you and other commentators have, so I don’t know whether your analysis is correct. What I do know is this:
    1. I am 60 years old.
    2. I want to see an independent Scotland before I’m 65.
    3. Between now and then, I want those with the same ambition to concentrate on that. Everything and everyone else is secondary to that, so
    4. Let’s keep some perspective.

  11. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Fuck me, Wings has turned into The Daily Mail!”

    Oh do piss off.

  12. Sharny Dubs says:

    Hear hear!

    Had to be said!

  13. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I agree her rant was I’ll advised at best but she was not purporting to represent the SNP. Her rant….Her responsibility.”

    When the official SNP account retweets it, that’s exactly what it represents.

  14. CameronB Brodie says:

    “If no disciplinary action is taken against Mhairi Black, the leadership will have proven itself to be hypocritical, reckless and unfit for purpose and should step down, and the sooner the better. We have no more time to waste, and enough is enough.”


  15. Mark Russell says:

    Agree with all that. This sex/gender issue is nothing but a distraction from many vital issues facing Scotland presently and for the SNP to consume themselves with such an insignificant matter, raises serious questions about their vision, motive and competence. Regrettable that Mhari published this video- she’s made some fantastic contributions to the political landscape since elected. Let’s hope she reconsiders her views.

  16. Connor McEwen says:

    Who cares. I do not.M.P. Or not.Who gies a eff

  17. Proud Cybernat says:

    Sorry Rev. Not getting involved in this.

    Let’s focus on getting our country’s independence.

    I hope Ms Black will be extended the courtesy of a right to reply column on Wings?

  18. starlaw says:

    Who is to say if this is or is not a Westminster stitch up . The SNP are doing what they said they would do, and the end game is just around the corner it will be over by 2021, perhaps even this year. It is time to wait and not to blindly rush off and do exactly what. Scottish History is well covered by these headlong charges in the wrong direction. WAIT .

  19. A C Bruce says:

    This needed saying by someone the SNP hierarchy MIGHT take notice of, however, I’m not holding my breath.

  20. montfleury says:

    It’s a small point but Neil Hay was a candidate when they slung him under a bus, not an elected rep.

  21. Iain Morrison says:

    Very disappointed in Mhairi and yep hard not to conclude SNP have clearly screwed up on this issue
    1 They have just got balance completely wrong and failed to look at both sides of the argument
    2 Attacking majority of population is not the way to achieve Independence

  22. Sinky says:

    Agree that SNP elected representatives need up their game and keep their eye on the goal of Indy. Minority rights are important but to win Indy we must appeal to the majority in Scotland. SNP reps need to be sharper on TV, pace Kirsty Blackman on Sky. SNP HQ rebuttal unit is a joke and needs to be much much more pro active immediately Yoon polititians and their media friends spread false info.

  23. g72 says:

    Been thinking for a while that a lot of MPs and MSPs are quite comfortable with their cosy wee lifes and dont want independence messing it up,wishart wanting to be commons speaker for an example,i wont hold my nose and vote for stewart mcdonald MP again and have serious doubts about voting for my local councillor

  24. Ken500 says:

    There has been mixed changing rooms for years in swimming pool abd health clubs. There are absolutely no problems. There are separate cubicles, large family changing rooms. It helps the patrons. Families can change together. Friend can change together. Mothers or fathers are not separated from their children of a different sex. Having to use a different changing room. Restricting access. It is open not restricted. Safer for people. Open and airy with a community atmosphere. It is safer. People look out for each other.

    There are adults there to help in any confrontation atmosphere. Never happens. There are plenty of staff in attendance, a legal requirement. No one goes walking about with their genitals on display. Or they would be accosted by men and women who would complain. They would be apprehended or chucked out, it is more open.People would heard any vocal or see any visual offensive action. There are cameras on entrances/exits open spaces. It is absolutely no problem. In some swimming pools people have to document their names and address, phone no checked before they can take family photos.

    People are more likely to be accidentally hurt in toilets. 10,000? a year.

    The complaints always seem to come from people who do not use mixed changing rooms. If they used them they would see there was not problems. There are still separate/disabled toilets on the premises.,

  25. Bob Mack says:

    Miss Black has also annoyed many families of Scottish/Irish descent by referring to them in a Holywood article as “plastic paddies”
    That term is racist so Ms Black is not above being abusive herself.

    Whatever the reason ,whether to attract Unionist voters, or try to maximise the vote through including minorities, they are ploughing the wrong furrow.

    I have already cancelled my SNP membership some weeks ago ,though I will keep voting because of Indy. I am trapped in this situation unfortunately.

    Sadly, money has spoiled many many indy supporters as we know, who have gone to the other side. The true indy people are here on forums like these.

    Our independence was sold for gold, and perhaps it still is.

  26. Sinky says:

    Btw Short money can’t be used for party political campaigning or boosting HQ funds but a drop would harm research although we need to hear some NEW pro Indy arguments based on solid economic facts

  27. thingy says:

    Fucking weirdos. Been watching them squawking like fuck about a vulnerable minority on twitter. What about the vulnerable minority who have been targetted by Labour and the Tories since 2008 – disabled folk? Left to the back of the SNP queue while they fuck about with PC bullshit.

    Sorry, disabled folk – biological males who want access to female safe spaces are more important. We’ll maybe get to you in a couple of years or so.

  28. Hi Stu, I’be followed you since around 2013, daily and enjoy most of the stuff you post particularly enjoy ur analysis of MSM. On this particular issue, can I call it ‘trans’, when I think I understand what it’s about I then become confused. However my main point is if independence is achieved then the SNP will fragment. It may re-emerge as a left of centre party, name, let’s call them Social Democrats but it cannot continue in its present form. It’s to broad a church. Some of the talent in the SNP will also re-emerge in other parties.

  29. SOG says:

    There’s the Grouse Moors issue over the shooting of protected birds – eagles, kites and hen harriers particularly, which has been left to fester. That might have gained them support from outdoorsy folk, too.

  30. Alex says:

    The only thing that matters to me is Scotland’s independence.

    The sooner we get to fuck out of this dictatorship, the better.

  31. Juteman says:

    “Oh do piss off.”

    Yes, she should never have made that clip, but do we really need the biggest Indy site giving it this publicity?
    I agree with you calling her out on twitter, but worry this blog post might do more harm than good. Who knows?

  32. steve ellwood says:

    I’m on the record as saying this looks like#SNPLosingWomen

    Labour went this way, the Greens and LibDems are…

    The SNP need to focus on their core message, Independence – and not alienate 50% + of the electorate.

  33. Davie Park says:

    I vote SNP because they are our best route to indy. Seems there are a lot of peeps willing to destroy that possibility over an issue which is barely on the radar for the vast majority of the electorate. I smell a rat.
    I have contributed to Wings because of the excellent analysis of media and constitution – nothing else.
    You ask me to choose? I choose the SNP. Every. Fucking. Time.

  34. Alan Crerar says:

    Well, that seems to have outed a fair few of the “If this or that doesn’t change, the SNP will never get my vote again” sorts.
    Noted with thanks.

  35. Bob Costello says:

    This is actually spot on. I have had my doubts regarding SNP commitment to independence since shortly after Nicola Sturgeon was elected and my blogs are there to verify this.
    This whole transgender issue gives me great concern as I would not like to think that a daughter of mine, a girlfriend or a Wife ( if I had one) would be forced to share an intimate space with a Man, regardless of his opinion of what he prefers to be genderwise.
    Presumably, a Male transgender person could be inclined towards females as a lesbian and should he be in near contact with people he found attracted to would become aroused, therefore would this situation transmit into a situation where that transgender person was in an intimate place with vulnerable women displaying an erection. I could be wrong but perhaps someone with better knowledge could comment

  36. Legerwood says:

    A lot of posters seem to have forgotten, or are unaware, that the Scottish Government parked this issue a couple of weeks ago when they announced a new review/consultation at some point in the future. A long grass moment.

    As to the oft repeated ‘the MSPs/MPs are too comfortable in their current situation. How comfortable do you think it is to come into work every day knowing that whatever you do will, at best, be misrepresented and, at worst, totally ignored.

    Bullying in the workplace is much in the news these days and the treatment meted out day and daily to SG ministers etc certainly falls into the bullying category. They do the very best they can for the people of Scotland and get dogs abuse in return from opponents, MSM and even those who claim to support them.

    As to not wanting independence because it will put them out of a job. Well that applies to more than the MPs does it not?

  37. Heart of Galloway says:

    Meanwhile away from the netherworld, so to speak, C4 reports that the Met has launched a “broadside” against the Electoral Commission for failing to hand over documentation in regard to (ahem) alleged illegal overspending by the Leave campaign in the EU referendum.

    There is no way this crooked bunch of Britnat chancers should be allowed anywhere near IndyRef2. UN/EU scrutiny is a must to ensure a fair poll. Eyes on the prize. All else is plastic posturing.

  38. galamcennalath says:

    Mhairi was extremely foolish in expressing these views openly.

    Phobia – an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something

    Or, “A phobia is a type of anxiety disorder that causes an individual to experience extreme, irrational fear about a situation, living creature, place, or object.”

    Women, especially those who have been r8ped or abused, not wishing people with male bodies into traditional women only spaces are most certainly NOT being irrational. They are being totally rational. Any sane person must see their objections are founded.

    It is believing people with male bodies, should be allowed to enter women only safe spaces which is the irrational view. It is absolutely no surprise that most folks agree it’s a crazy view. And that’s most voters.

    Mhairi should have kept her ‘odd’ views to herself and the SNP should certainly not implied any support.

    An own goal just when we least need it.

  39. Lenny Hartley says:

    Oooft but sadly needed to be said. The SNP Leadership needs to get a grip and sort this mess out. I took umbrage at Craig Murray a couple of months ago at his criticism of Nicola Sturgeon’s leadership , it pains me to have to admit that He may have been correct.
    Im afraid its just not Westminster that folk are getting too comfortable!

  40. Ross says:

    What’s most irritating about this is that it clearly splits the vote for independence. Not only that, but Mhairi must be aware of how divisive a subject it is and how it was cause people to not vote for the SNP, and yet she’s still sticking to her guns. It’s just bloody irresponsible and depressing.

  41. Ross says:

    “and how it will cause people to not vote for the SNP” that should read.

  42. Ken500 says:

    In England & Wales there is a peak of murders last two years, Now approx 750. Increase of knife crime, pop 56Million?

    In the UK (without increased knife crime London last two years?)

    Before in the UK homicides (less terrorist) were approx 500 Pop 65Million. Men were 4 tines more likely to be murdered. 400 men 100 women. (Approx) It is a gender issue. Men are most likely perpetrators. Testosterone?

  43. Martin Gorrie says:

    the SNP needs to make its position clear and make a statement on this as soon as possible. Its not just the SNP failure to discipline people like Mhairi, Jordon, Leeze and all the others attacking Joanna Cherry and Joan McAlpine. There is clear misogny, bigotry and bullying and its being ignored. Other parties have expelled members for racism, islamaphobia and anti semitism, but the SNP have their heads in the sand over this abuse and disgraceful behaviour. The SNP have brought it on themselves by ignoring the majority of the population and concentrating on the small group of trans people and people jumping on the bandwagon out of misplaced loyalty to LGBT cause, ignorance or fear to say NO to Stonewall and these other groups pushing this agenda. Scotland deserves better and at the moment there is no party worth voting for unfortunately. The sensible SNP members, MPs and MSPs need to sort this out as soon as possible.

  44. alistair x says:

    I call it the Achilles paradox, Achilles was told by his mother a goddess, that if he went to Troy he would be given his greatest wish, immortal glory, but it would also come at the price of his life. He went.
    The snp were created for one sweet moment of glory which will result in something immortal and wonderful’
    Im a member and a marcher. I believe neo.
    I also understand the weakness in human nature, people can be corrupted,and politics attracts corruptible people, not all I know but many.
    Westminster is a MI5 playground , a friend who worked there 20 years told me, along with a few horror stories he informed me all snp mps are watched. and filed.
    We can only plough on and hope that the kind voices of concern are listened to and acted upon.

  45. Lenny Hartley says:

    Davie Park, like it or not this is a massive issue, woman are least likely to vote for Indy. Fact, the MSM when they feel the time is right will make this issue huge and its not only trans people who can self id, any passing pervert could self id as a woman and get into woman only spaces and you can bet your bottom dollar that the MSM will make sure that every woman in Scotland will know this before any indy2 vote. This issue could cost us Indy and our leadership ae been caught lacking.
    The Rev is right to bring this to attention, it needs to be put to bed. Fast

  46. Bod says:

    Ken500 says:
    4 July, 2019 at 7:29 pm
    “There has been mixed changing rooms for years in swimming pool abd health clubs. There are absolutely no problems.”

    Only of you ignore the documented fact that 90% of sexual offences that happen in municipal changing facilities happen in mixed sex ones.

  47. Chris Downie says:

    I’m with The Rev on this one, they have slowly but surely become a liability to the very movement of what is supposed to be their modus operandi.

    I’ve said it for a few years now and will say it again, I think the strategy in play from Sturgeon and Murrell is to kick “the mandate” into the long grass until it expires in 2021, then bank on scraping through that election as a minority administration, with another five years of power, with a pathetic opposition, no inconvenience of a “mandate” and thus no pressure to deliver independence.

    If it comes to that, I hope the electorate absolutely hammer them at the ballot box, for squandering what is the greatest chance we will possibly ever have to win independence.

  48. David Agnew says:

    Well Hell.

    Just too much stupid in one day. I have already sworn off twitter when I head Mad magazine decided to close shop because the world was beyond satire. The SNP are openly happy about letting the fox amongst the Hens. Its really going to take a death isn’t it? Its going to take a pointless and tragic death before this stupid fucking attack of logorrhea that defines the gender debate is put down. The SNP is proceeding if this cannot bite it on the ass. That it can dismiss the fears of women with the sneering label, “Bigot” and not have it hit them at the ballot box. The last time I saw a party pull a stunt this fucking dumb was the tories and “care in the community”. It took a death to put a stop to that. The damage it did to them in the polls and the ballotbox was huge. I can see women ditching the SNP and I honestly couldn’t blame them.

    So yeah. Toxic diversity could cost us our Independence.

  49. Ken500 says:

    It is to bring the equality Law into International standards. It is reminiscent of the fight for Gay rights. Many people were opposed and gave scurrilous arguments as to how it would affect other people. Prejudice related. Many people were not bothered at all. The majority were supportive. Integrated into society law and structure.

  50. Al-Stuart says:


    This is your website. You are passionate about gender and trans issues. The injustices are legion. Mhari Black has been stupid.

    The prominence of the gender and trans issue appears to be knocking the Indy subject out of kilter. For what it is worth, PLEASE…

    Pick your battles.

    I wrote a very strong critique of Mhairi Black on the website when she got overly friendly with Tory welfare nightmare Iain Duncan Smith.

    But painful though it was, we didn’t press the matter to the 18,754th step. Why?

    Because whatever our differences that currently exist between Scots of all passions and issues, we ALL NEED TO GET INDEPENDENCE FOR SCOTLAND first.

    Stuart, in your recent Alex Salmond interview, you mentioned Westminster welfare reform and the issues arising. That gave those here trying to end Tory welfare disability deaths great comfort that someone such as your good self has this on your radar.

    Similarly trans and gender issues are heavily important and can change or even end lives and that is very clearly on your radar too.

    But what hit me reading this thread is the fear of losing our goal of independence when we are so close.

    Indeed, your final words on this thread scared the bejeebers out of me.

    The thought that SNP MPs are getting very comfortable with Westminster + expenses + the high life in London and would surrender independence to keep their McSnouts in the trough left me feeling physically sick.

    I have no right to ask this Stu,, and am unsure whether any other WoS reader/donor feels the same. But just as I have “parked” Mhari Black’s friendship with cripple killing Ian Duncan Smith, perhaps the trans + gender issue might take second slot to the over arching cause if Independence?

    Basically just a little perspective. Independence battle to be won as the top priority.


  51. Tony Hay says:

    Let’s calm down and keep our eyes on the prize. There are little to no votes in this transgender issue and I’m all for a full, frank and robust airing of the issues involved but please AFTER indy is achieved.
    Mhairi should know this and OTHERS know the damage that not holding the line can do.
    It’s got to be about indy not ego.

  52. CameronB Brodie says:

    The tran-rights movement is a facet of neo-liberalism and the men’s rights movement. It offers zero social benefit and undermines the normative foundations of human rights. It is an example of the sort of structural misogyny that feminist jurisprudence was invented to fight. It is ideology that came from the New Left and has been adopted by the New Right, as it fits with their policy objective of turning the clock back on liberal society.



    Sexuality and Law scholarship is a new and developing field but, like most legal scholarship, it is dominated by masculine concerns and methodologies. This article explains why research that ignores feminist concerns and methodologies will be incomplete and inaccurate, and suggests questions that should be asked of resources to ensure a complete and accurate coverage of the topic.

  53. Daisy Walker says:

    I had given a commitment not to post on here again, so I’ll only do so once.

    It would be hopelessly naive to think that the British Empire could not and would not infiltrate the SNP, particularly as it gets closer to Brexit No Deal.

    If you can see that, and find this credible, then you have to ask what form it would take.

    It takes the form of crushing every and any dissenting, critical voice of the SNP, and doing so from within.

    A lie can get twice round the world before the truth gets its boots on… but here is the thing, so can a good idea…. and that was the power of the Yes Movement.

    Regulars on this site will be well familiar with the Gatekeepers of SNP purity, but really, they have done it the greatest, most destructive damage imaginable, knowingly or not. It was a tried, tested, well practiced technique within the Labour Party and they’ve rinsed and repeated in the SNP. Instead of good ideas spreading like wildfire and inspiring evermore, they are hounded into falling into line, and putting it to committee, where the ‘old hands’ will tut and sigh and quietly kill it.

    Whether they’ve done it knowingly or in ignorance, doesn’t matter – they’ve provided the perfect safe, uncritical, place for those who are doing it knowingly to operate.

    But, but you shouldn’t wash your dirty linen in public, the walls have ears.

    If you think for a minute the Britnat Establishment haven’t ‘war’ planned each and every legal – and not so legal – permutation of how the Scot Gov can broker Indy, your off your chump. But if the Yes Movement doesn’t have a clue what the damned plan is, if there is no leadership… it fails, and fails with a whimper.

    So, the question is how. Not if, or maybe, but how. And the answer to that, (for most) is unlikely to be with bribes and with scandal. Much simpler, much more discrete, much more effective to threaten their families. Scare them shitless. Later there will be carrots to sweeten the pill, but for now, the British Establishment cannot afford to lose the cash cow that is Scotland, and will ensure a Brexit No Deal goes through in order to preserve the Tax Havens for the Establishment.

    And it looks as if, they’ve succeeded, placed a self destruct bomb within the SNP that makes them unelectable – the new ‘loony left’ and pissing off the most liberal and decent electorate I’ve seen in my 50 years.

    I thought M. Black was brilliant. Until I saw her video yesterday – which is an utter disgrace.

    But here is the thing, if all who share these reservations rip up their membership cards and walk away – you are doing the exact thing that is wanted.

    Do the Opposite.

    Call an emergency meeting of your local branch, have your MP, your MSP and local leaders there. Have them sign a commitment to

    shelf the Self ID until after Indy,

    Cost out and put up local Billboards on the subject of Indy, and tell local members the time scale (and this should have already been done, absolute disgrace that its not). Do this locally, do this nationally, do this big and small – every car is a billboard. If you don’t have campaign posters ready, use Indy Poster boys (which are brilliant).

    Campaign, Now. We face the biggest threat since WW2 and what, we’re going to sit on our arses over the summer months.

    And here is the brutal bit… if they cannot or will not sign up to the above – DESELECT THEM, and REPLACE THEM. Replace them with someone who will.

    Dust down the rule books, read the fine print, have your votes of no confidence, and get them replaced.

    For those who say we cannot win without the SNP – you are absolutely right. Time now for Yessers to say, but we are the SNP, and the policy is Indy Now.

    Nicola Sturgeon said, ‘lend us your vote’. Well its too important to be a len. The SNP’s got obligations due, and its time to call them in. Time fir a Coo – very Scottish Coo.

    We’re going to get our Indy, and we have to do it now.

  54. Capella says:

    Reposting from previous thread:
    @ Robert Peffers – “The only reasonable conclusion is that there are other people with a different agenda making all the background noise.”

    You’re quite right Robert, they’re called “women”. I’m one of them. Women are not a minority. Women make up 52% of the VOTING population. I will not vote for a party that plans to remove my rights, which would be the direct result of the course of action the SG published on their website.

    Yes they have stepped back from the brink. Relief. But if you want people to shut up about this issue then the best course of action is to ensure that the SNP understands that this is a major vote loser.

    The only reason there hasn’t been a public tsunami of outrage so far is because most people know nothing about it. But, as Lenny Hartley points out, that ignorance will certainly be removed as soon as a campaign starts.

    If women, their husbands and partners, their children and parents, are to vote SNP then the SNP will have to deal with this issue. Mhairi Black is still in the SNP AFAIK.

    Stu has been posting about the trans issue since at least 2013. He has been under constant attack for his stance against Self ID. Stu is not a member of the SNP and can’t vote SNP. But he is an astute observer of the political landscape. He is quite right to point out the toxic misogynistic nature of the Gender Recognition Act 2004 and its aftermath.

    The GRA 2004 is a WESTMINSTER Act which was adopted in Scotland under the Sewell convention. Labour were in power in both Westminster and Holyrood at the time. It enshrines in law a scientific impossibility i.e that a human adult can change sex. It is a travesty of biology. But it is not an SNP act and they are not obliged to take ownership of it.

    Those who want to understand some of the background could read the “One Week in the War on Women” post and comments.

  55. Craig Murray says:

    Lenny Hartley,

    Thank you, that is kind of you.

    I do think perspective is important. I am pretty sure that 90% of voters are unaware the SNP has a position on these issues at all. Thus while I agree 100% the SNP has been driven down the cul de sac of identity politics instead of concentrating on independence, I don’t think fiercely adopting contrary positions on gender issues is the way to go.

  56. Ken500 says:

    Where are the statistics that more offences are committed in mix changing rooms. The net has been searched, There are no figures available. In years there are no reports. Anecdotal never heard of any. People have been using mixed changing rooms for years. The Village sports centre. Leisure centre swimming pool. Many places. It is usually the more up to date places More recently built. No problems. People can be attacked anywhere, unfortunately. The majority in the home or between people who know each other.

    There are statistics for accidental injuries in toilets 10,000? a year.

  57. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    I agree with the observation Rev Stu made, that it is impossible for a human to change sex.

    I have nothing against humans who want to present as a gender that is not in alignment with their sex, after all Danny La Rue must have made a mint, presenting himself as of the female gender onstage. Some want to do it all the time. Fine. No problem with that.

    However, I can see where natural-born women feel that putting the gender cart before the sex horse is betraying the rights, for which they have fought hard, over the decades.

    To be as beneficent as I can be, Mhairi Black, as a gay woman, ridiculing other women raising the issues of ‘women’s rights’, does not sit comfortably with me.

    I type that as an SNP member who has had a blether with Ms Black a couple of times.

    This has to be sorted.

  58. Former vegan god says:

    Lifelong SNP supporter. Former SNP councillor. Admired Nicolas ability for a short time but over the last year her virtue signalling, progressive politics have turned me off. Membership cancelled and cash donations no more. Pains me as myself and family and many friends who have given so much over the last fifty years are sickened by the party leadership. The pussy hat wearing, anti male bias is stomach turning. They will get my vote till job done. But after that? Don’t know. I fear for Scotland post independence.

  59. Athanasius says:

    This is what happens when the “yoof” is given its head. I’ve always maintained that NOBODY should be allowed to hold public office before their fortieth birthday, and here’s an excellent example of why not. Mhari Black is a kid. She doesn’t know sh1t from brown sauce, but from the moment she first appeared she’s been lionized by independence supporters as some kind of Scottish Mahdi and frankly, it’s incomprehensible. It’s 2019, not 1969. Have we STILL not outgrown the cretinous hippy ideology of that time?

  60. sassenach says:

    Sick to death with all this – if I never hear the word “trans” again, it will be too soon!

    I can’t even look at the Wings twitter now, and the blog is heading the same way – I just want Indy – is that too much to ask?


  61. James MacLean says:

    Late last Friday night, a Tweet appeared showing Mhairi Black sitting at a session in Westminster rubbing something on her gums.

    I’m no expert on this sort of thing, but some of the comments suggested the substance could have been cocaine.

    I tried to find that Tweet on Saturday morning, but it was gone.

    Has Mhairi Black been got at?

  62. Graham says:

    As you have suggested before Stu, independence first, then everything else.

    Time to follow the advice.

    There may be SNP stuff you don’t like, but imo its best to hold your nose and sort it out after indy.

  63. Charlie Magee says:

    I won’t be voting for my local councillor again, apart from the fact Ms Spears has been very vocal on and is insistent that man can become a woman, disagree with that & you’re labelled transphobic.

    I acknowledge difficulties that trans folk are having difficulties in different areas, but they can not & should not be allowed to impose those held beliefs on others who still look to science for proof

  64. Ian Brotherhood says:

    A few points before I get pished and revert to spectator mode:

    Stu uses the first-person in this post. Very unusual. Normally it would be ‘we went for a very long walk’. (Just wondering Rev – any reason for that?)

    Secondly: I do hope Wingers will take the time to watch the video and make their own minds up about the package as a whole. Is it educational? Shocking? Is it worrying? Entertaining?

    Thirdly: I have tried, over the past week or so, to find out what my own female relatives feel about all this GRA-related stuff. None of them are particularly active politically but they’re no dafties. None of them knew what ‘TERF’ means and none have heard workmates or friends raising the topic of GRA generally.

    Finally: this is a real chance for WOS regulars and lurkers alike to contribute to a vital discussion which most of us would prefer to avoid. (And that’s important – why do most of us avoid it?) It would be remiss of those with relevant experiences and/or firmly held opinions not to chip in. This is a boil which needs to be lanced, no matter how messy and painful it will surely be.

    And may God have mercy on our souls…

  65. george wood says:

    Ah Ken 500 @ 7.57pm, you are not at the races on this topic.

    You are unaware that quoting stats about male violence is taboo these transgender days. Reminding people that men have a greater propensity for violence than women will risk getting your twitter/facebook accounts suspended or shut down for hate speech.

    Anything that indicates that men are a risk to women’s safe spaces is considered hate speech and can risk your job if you work in the public sector.

  66. Vic says:

    I would have thought a site like this could have brought out the nuanced difference between sex (the physical) and gender (psychological and mental) which many of the tweets and some posters here seem to have difficulty distinguishing between.

    If you’ve never known someone usually as child/teenager who is uncomfortable and doesn’t feel their SEX is right for them and thus resolves to put themselves through gender change process then you ARE a by definition bigot. Asserting it’s ‘confusion’ and they’ll ‘grow out of it’ is bullshit and fascist by forcing your world view. on them.

    Surprised this site has come out with such a conservative world view on this

  67. Ken500 says:

    Many women appreciate mixed changing rooms in swimming pools and health centres. They can change together with their children, friends or families. There is not need for segregation. Many complaints seem to come from those who never use them. If they did they would see there are no problems. They are outraged on others behalf. People who use the facilities just get on and use them. Appreciate they can change together. Without limiting access. Everybody just behaves in the usual decorum. Humans are quite rational.

    Younger people often do not have such hang ups about bodies. Just a few pounds of flesh. They often tend to be more accepting of differences. They are brought up more openly than the previous generations. They are more aware and open to discussions of the dangers that could be facing them. More sexual aware than the previous generations. More open discussions.

  68. ALANM says:

    Looks to me like the SNP is on a mission to appeal to all the Guardian readers in Scotland (about 6,000 at the last count) and fuck everyone else. Time for the rest of us to speak up before it’s too late.

  69. CameronB Brodie says:

    I think the blog is offering rational and constructive criticism to help the SNP see what others see. The indy cause is morally justifiable, undermining women’s rights, not so much.

  70. Paul Reid says:

    Wings is always right, so I guess this is the exception that proves the rule. “People can’t actually change their sex” – eh, I think you’ll find that science has made that possible.

  71. CameronB Brodie says:

    James MacLean
    Bonjela is more likely, IMHO.

  72. Tackety Beets says:

    I’m with Sinky @ 7.27pm

    I have not played the clip etc as all gender stuff seams to be getting too much attention. A distraction we can do without.
    I picked up the tweet at lunch today & ended looking at the SNP MEDIA & REBUTTAL as in @theSNPMedia on Twitter. Unless I am mistaken they have only tweeted 1, ie ONE tweet since May !

    This needs addressed immediately too.

    Hopefully my inability technically proves me wrong & the Media & Rebuttal Service has been more active than that, but I’m not convinced.

    What I am struggling with is “shared space” as noted above swim pools seam to work fine. I also remember visiting pubs, some have shared toilet facilities.
    There is a former pub & now a restaurant in the Highlands that has facilities downstairs & is shared space. It was novel in the 90s.

    Never has the words been more appropriate.


  73. Joe says:

    I agree completely.

    I could say a lot about this but ill stick to what I think is the main issue –

    Identity politics/progressive politics is utter poison. Its poisonous for the people who accept it. its poisonous for parties who promote it and its poisonous for societies that embrace it.

    Why? Whats wrong with protecting the vulnerable and helping the down trodden?

    Because its NOT ABOUT HELPING those people/groups. Its about using the oppressor/victim narrative to advance an agenda. Its about slowly controlling the narrative and attaining POWER over people. The ‘oppressed’ groups are merely vehicles to be used.

    It will not stop at the trans issue if we allow it. It will continue until everything is ‘hate speech’ and everything can get you turned in as hate criminal. It will turn healthy society upside down and we will all be scared to speak whats on our minds.

    I get a fairly bad rap for my less-than-leftist views here and that’s fine. I am an economic conservative. But I also understand that a healthy left-wing of politics is necessary.

    Identity politics is not healthy. It is pure poison. It is damaging the left all over the western world and harming the people who need them. The SNP are going to self destruct because of it and damage Scotland in the process. Watch.

  74. June Maxwell says:

    This is just the saddest situation. I was hoping all the reports I’ve heard recently re SNP mischief were untrue even though my sources are rock solid. This must have been an uncomfortable post to write and I’m sure Wings took no pleasure doing so. I’m just grateful he’s forthright. My heart aches for the foot soldiers who still seem stuck in wishful-thinking mode even though day-by-day an agenda gets clearer. Meanwhile, we dither on (with some humouring speeches) till the next election and re-election of many of the same people and the best chance we ever had to renew our nation has been lost. I trust with all my might an unforseen event upends the status quo and allows Indy to happen anyhow, but I’m not as starry-eyed about the prospect as I once was.

  75. McDuff says:

    The rev is right the SNP have got too cosy and its almost as if the prospect of independence and the undoubted stresses of post prolonged intricate hostile negotiations over a long period are proving too much.
    Many have been confused by the energy put into reversing Brexit which has been a boon to indy rather than sitting back and letting Westminster sort out their own mess.

  76. Ian Mackay says:

    Everyone has rights. Animals have rights.

    The thing about rights is: they are not absolute. Their priority and precedence changes on a case by case basis.

    So a child has a right to not be harmed by an adult – in almost all cases.

    What about when a child is in the road of traffic and the parent uses reasonable force to stop the child being run over. I think the right of the parent to use that force in that case is reasonable.

    (If only Tory MP Mark Field was saving that protester from an oncoming bus – and not his dinner – he would be branded a hero and not a neanderthal idiot!)

    Animal rights. A fox has rights to its life. The farmer has rights to defend his livestock. Does the fox deserve to be chased by hounds and ripped apart? I think most would say no; that goes too far. The chickens deserve their coup as protection etc.

    Do Trans people have rights? Yes. Most definitely.
    Do Women have rights? Again, yes. Most definitely.

    I don’t think anyone is seriously arguing that Women or Trans shouldn’t have rights.

    The sticking point for many is the issue of protected places. So it comes back to precedence and the case by case basis. Who has the greater right of using the protected place like a Ladies toilet? Women or Trans?

    It looks like Mhairi is arguing that women shouldn’t expect these protected places. That could be an age thing; plenty of young women use Gents toilets in pubs when the Ladies toilets are busy so the ‘protected place’ idea might already be blurry.

    By custom and practice Women generally expect their ‘protected places’ like toilets and changing rooms etc. to be Women only. Is it a right? I think it is and most courts would agree.

    So in the ‘protected place’ case: which right comes first? The right of Trans to ‘feel normal’ and use the protected place or the right of Women to keep their protected place? I think it must be for women to judge – the concept of a Mens toilet being only for men has long passed!

    Women need to be asked if they want to forego their right to these protected places.

    The argument needs to be had. But no-one’s rights are absolute: not Mens, Womens, Trans, Childrens, Foxes or Chickens etc. Its all done case by case. And everyone needs to bear that in mind.

  77. Ken500 says:

    In the wider family circle there is a youngster who wants to identify as another sex. Just wear androgynous clothes. Different nick name. They would not hurt a fly. It is not a problem. With unisex clothes nowadays. Sometimes it is difficult to distinguish sex of many people who do not conform to the norm. Surgery should be restricted, if possible, to over 21. Teenagers are often developing so quickly. They can be confused because their brains are developing rapidly. A psychological development. It can cause confusion.

  78. Andy Ellis says:

    Is it just me, or does Mhairi Black come across as more than a tad unhinged in that video?

  79. CameronB Brodie says:

    You appear to be making up your own definition of the word bigot, and dismissing medical opinion on gender dysphoria. Not a good look, frankly.

  80. Brian Powell says:

    I haven’t seen this in SNP members right across Fife. It’s a big population, a big constituency.

    I have seen on twitter Yes supporters who seem desperate to see the SNP fail in some way. Nothing to do with this issue, just constant sniping at the SNP, as if these supporters don’t see the danger to what they claim they want.

    Though they may have an agenda of their own, or not be genuine supporters. Many times their comments seem not to ring true.

  81. Brian Powell says:

    I recommend reading Craig Murray’s latest article.

  82. Neil Clephane says:

    Interesting take on what Miss Black had to say, This Gender Recognition Act is getting many conflicting opinions, from feminists mostly, I have read a few articles on the Act and have come to the opinion that it’s very contentious.

    I could wake up tomorrow after 52 years of being a man and having never wanted to be a woman, and could just say I’m now a woman, I mean how ridiculous is that, there has to be some process where a person changes there gender in law, what that is I don’t know.

    So in my opinion this Act should get put to the bottom of the pile, maybe look at it after independence, same with the parking levy.

    Why bring out legislation that is going to split voters, at the very time we need to be united.

    SNP MPs too comfortable in Westminster hmmm never thought of that before.

  83. The Man in the Jar says:

    As someone who has supported and whenever possible voted for the SNP for the last 45 years I couldn’t agree more.

    We have a golden opportunity for independence in front of us. I will never forgive them if they blow it over such an unnecessary reason, never!

  84. Ken500 says:

    Many people have been using mixed changing rooms for years In swimming pools and health clubs With family and friends. Male and female, young and old with absolutely no problems. Other people All the patrons use them. No problems. Anyone who does not want to use them can go elsewhere but millions use them no problems. There are separate cubicles with locks. Separate toilets/disable.

  85. Terry says:

    Thanks stu. Needed saying. Cancelled my Snp membership and standing order. Message needed sent. I will rejoin when/if the Snp get real again. Meantime will keep on campaigning on our Indy stall – in some ways easier.
    This needed to be said for women. And I don’t care what pelters I get. Funnily enough my trans friend who went through the trans op/hormones twenty years ago thinks a lot of this is keech too. She’s busy campaigning against trump, poverty and other stuff.

    Thank god for auob, Scot goes pop, Joanna cherry and the Dug.

  86. Famous15 says:

    From the moment an SNP staff unelected member tweeted in support of Kezia Dugdale’s “triumph” in theStu court case I knew something was amiss in SNP HQ.

    I support the views of Joan Macalpine and Joanne Cherry.

    BUT I understand why gay people like Mhairi Black act as they do. They transfer their experience to a much more complex issue.

    I am nearly eighty and have never knowingly met a trans person. My instinct is to treat this subject with sensitivity but not allow dangerous consequences.

    I think independence is imperative for our well being and is not just an amenity.

  87. CmonIndy says:

    I dont really take a view on all this transgender stuff (or whatever different folks want to call it) because the discourse from most quarters is aggressive and confusing.
    I do take a view on the amplifying of stuff which is potentilly damaging to Indy, which is what this article is doing.

  88. stewartb says:

    Re James MacLean @ 8:26 pm

    Thanks for a fine example of a ZERO evidence based attempt at character assignation. You should be proud of your effort.

    Re Athanasius@8:24 pm

    He/she writes: ‘This is what happens when the “yoof” is given its head.’ A fine example of generalisation to the n’th degree. Well done! Admirable logic.

    What’s coming next?

    What more crap like this is today’s rant of a post (- an unhelpful IMHO conflation of many different issues) going to unleash?

  89. Awizgonny says:

    Also pertinent is the fact that women were less likely to vote for Independence. This flagrant removal of their privacy/ rights by SNP politicians will only make it more difficult to gain their vote.

  90. Bob Mack says:

    Crikey,.Even the Tories are hiding results from opinion polls suggesting the Union is finished after Brexit. I think it was Tommy Shepherd who applied to see it under FOI, but was refused by Philip Hammond. The Tories are trying everything from visiting Scotland ,to threatening it with removal of powers or a review of devolution. They are now blethering about more powers. All in a month.

    They are worried.

    This is the time to put indy front ,centre and back, and not other issues. Do you hear that SNP HQ?

  91. Bootsy81 says:

    Starting to wonder if Sinn Fein have the right idea in not taking their seats. Sends a message, no one is living it up getting comfortable in London, and the party’s talent isn’t wasted making speeches that are laughed at and shouted down in the three ring circus that is Westminster. Instead they could be up here campaigning for Indy like everyone else.

    Maybe it really is time to call them back, let the clowns down there get on with the Brexit shit show and we can get on with more important things.

  92. G H Graham says:

    I’ve been suggesting for months now that Sturgeon’s time is over. All organisations are ultimately a reflection of the culture & values retained & expressed by those at the top.

    Appointing women to specific jobs simply because they are women is no antidote to male hegemony in society & this is entirely the fault of Nicola Sturgeon.

    The SNP media team is ineffectual & useless. SNP MEPs & MPs are some of the worst performers on TV & radio at refuting unionist bullshit yet there they are; still soaking up handsome salaries for being useless lieutenants.

    I have imagined the SNP’s comfort with this devolution settlement for quite a while now which is confirmed by the total refusal to test the Section 30 request in a court of law.

    No better time than since last October has the party had to stick a dagger into the British Establishment during its chaotic handling of Brexit. Yet here we are, with Sturgeon’s team still trying to subvert the Brexit process & prevent an exit from Europe.

    If this script were from a movie you’d be expecting a twist at the end where Sturgeon pulls off her mask in a Mission Impossible moment & reveals herself to be Teresa May’s long lost twin.

    And as I watch these bizarre events unfold, nothing would surprise me anymore.

    Call the independence referendum now Ms. Sturgeon or fuck right off.

  93. James Sneddon says:

    As WGD wrote last year

    “The SNP is seriously in danger of making the historic mistake of the Labour party in Scotland, and falling into the trap of managerialism and of taking its support base for granted”*

    I’m getting the sense of some of the MSPs and MPs becoming the same type of place men that inhabited labour up until 2015. SNP are losing their fizz and at this rate they’ll need to be a purge of the careerists and install those with the passion for indy first, last and always.


  94. Steve Mulligan says:

    In all of this discord, please remember we don’t know to what depths they’ve infiltrated or where the sleepers are for MI5 in the Indy movement. But I have a hunch they’ve been activated.

  95. Merlin Scot says:


  96. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Joe @ 20:38,

    I largely agree with you there. Wierd.

    But I don’t believe “The SNP” are actually root-and-branch involved in this, just the same as the population at large. I could be wrong, but I have the distinct impression that it’s just a few zealots who are making a whole lot of noise over this, and don’t seem to be respecting the very sensible and pragmatic SG line. Maybe because they are afraid they are losing the argument.

    I blame displacement activity for this kind of distraction. There’s nothing here that can’t wait to be fully addressed once the main purpose of the SNP is achieved, and that important task should be requiring “all hands on deck” right now.

  97. george wood says:

    I don’t understand Mhairi Black’s stance on this. The trans movement is openly homophobic.

    Their stance is that lesbians should not be exclusively same-sex attracted, because it excludes men who want to be lesbians. The whole basis of homosexuality is same-sex attraction and to deny that is to deny the rights of homosexuals to be what they are. It is as homophobic as it gets.

    Either Mhairi Black is a massive hypocrit or she is not telling us something about her sexual preferences.

  98. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Wings is always right, so I guess this is the exception that proves the rule. “People can’t actually change their sex” – eh, I think you’ll find that science has made that possible.”

    No it hasn’t. I could have tusks implanted in my face but it wouldn’t make me a fucking elephant.

  99. Douglas says:

    It seems to me that every political era has wee group of young people who want to be the so-called arbiters of social taste, conventions and whataboutery. For example, the 80s champagne socialists, the 90s chattering classes, the 00s political correctness and now the 10s the woke crowd. This seems to be the case whether it be it their ideological beliefs, personal beliefs or through peer pressure. Through force of their views and personality it can be seen that such people become involved in politics.

    Whilst their views can be worthwhile as society changes, it is necessary for advisors and politicians to remain in step with the worldview of the public. However, it seems that attempts to seek attention can overtake core issues, which for the SNP should be Independence. It seems to me, and possibly others, that the SNP party have developed a blind eye their raison d’etre and become beholden to their advisors and some politicians. I would like to think that this is not the case.

    However, this notion of trying to please all the people all the time seems to have become overwhelming. I wish the SNP party and Nicola would tell their advisors and some elected representatives to go out and experience life outside the Parliamentary bubble and to take more time to listen to their party members and supporters of Scottish Independence. If not, I fear that the chance to secure Independence may be lost. All the other issues can be dealt with later as and when Independence is achieved and then we can all listen to all their opinions.

  100. Bryan Ritchie says:

    Sorry I see no thining of the faith in my branch re the party nor any discussion that our MP is settlling down in London what I do see is a very worrying article suggesting that such is the case over what most of Scotland would term a distraction to be honest when so many other matters are requiring attention.
    I will be amazed if any disciplinary action is forthcoming

  101. Neil Clephane says:

    Reading the above comments, Think you should have took a longer walk Mr Campbell, you’ve opened a can of worms.

  102. Bobp says:

    Makes you wonder if some SNP mp’s have been got at. Have they been naughty in London?.

  103. CameronB Brodie says:

    I agree that this issue needs to be addressed after independence, but I’m concerned that SNP support for such a “wedge issue”, is strategically naive, at best. Remember, “sex” is not the same as “gender-identity”. Remember also, that sex is defined in law, so the original consultation exercise was flawed. As such, it is crucial we find out who ordered the civil service to abandon best practice, when designing the consultation?


    The revival of Anglo-American political theory and the revival of feminism in what came to be called its “second wave” both emerged early in the second half of the twentieth century. To situate both, consider the publication dates of some of the foundational works of each movement: Simone de Beauvoir’s The Second Sex’ appeared in 1949 and was translated into English by 1952; Isaiah Berlin’s Two Concepts of Liberty2 was published in 1958, as was John Rawls’s Justice as Fairness;3 Betty Friedan’s The Feminine Mystique4 appeared in 1963 and Kate Millett’s Sexual Politics5 in 1970; John Rawls’s complete A Theory of Justice6 came out in 1971.

    Yet despite the fact that these two revivals were contemporaneous, there was for a couple of decades very little dialogue between the participants in each of
    them. Feminist political theorists tended to turn their attention to the historical canon of political thought, rather than to contemporary works.7 Feminist philosophers embarked on classifying and analyzing the theories of the feminist movement itself.8 And feminist activists, at least in the United States and Great Britain, concerned themselves to a large extent with consciousness raising and with urgent public policy issues such as reforming r4pe law, drawing attention to domestic violence, and trying to get the Equal Rights Amendment passed.

    On the other hand, the leaders of the newly re-burgeoning field of political philosophy – John Rawls, Ronald Dworkin, Brian Barry, and Steven Lukes, for example – paid no attention in their writings to the feminist movement and its ideas.9 They appeared to assume, as had most of those in the long tradition that preceded them, that inequalities between the sexes were “natural” rather than political, and were therefore not an appropriate concern for philosophical inquiry.

    By the end of the century, however, things had changed significantly, as a full-scale debate emerged between John Rawls and various feminist critics of his already classic work, A Theory of Justice.

    Here, I shall give an account of this debate, and try to advance it a little further. I start by defining some of its key terms and pointing to some of the most relevant concepts of Rawls’s theory of justice. Next, I briefly address some feminist critiques of Rawls that have emerged as parts of feminist critiques of liberalism as a whole, together with feminist responses to such critiques. Then I give an account of the debate about gender and justice between John Rawls and those who have critiqued his theory from a feminist perspective but have also valued, and used in their own work, some of its central concepts and arguments.

    Finally, I give a brief response to Rawls’s recently published response to critics on the subject of gender, justice, and the family. I shall argue that, although Rawls eventually responded directly to those I term his “constructive” feminist critics, the distinction between comprehensive and political liberalism that he introduces in Political Liberalism severely diminishes the capacity of his theory of justice to answer feminist criticism. Only by allowing that his principles of justice apply directly to the internal life of families – which Rawls clearly resists – and by restricting “reasonable conceptions of the good” to those that are non-sexist, could one revise the theory so that it both includes women and has an effective and consistent account of moral development….

  104. Capella says:

    Nothing would please the unionists more than getting rid of Nicola Sturgeon. She is, by far, the most adept politician in the UK.

    But she is not infallible.

    I have not cancelled my membership because they have put the GRA update on hold until they have another – proper – consultation. Let everyone be sure to tell them what you think when that goes public.

    BTW there is currently a consultation on the Gender Representation on Public Boards. Get onto the Scot Gov site and have your say. Similar issue.

    But I have told them that I will certainly resign and cancel my DD if Self ID is implemented. I can still vote for Indyref without being a member. However, unless they secure the votes of the majority of the population, there is little chance of getting a referendum, let alone winning it. Women constitute 52% percent of the population, or c 2,000,000 votes. Their husbands, partners, children and parents add another 2,000,000 votes.

    If I were a unionist plotting to destroy public support for the SNP, this is exactly the sort of issue I would be promoting.

  105. Robert Peffers says:


    People this is heart breaking stuff and these folk need our help.

    Sorry to interrupt this SNP BADDDDD! FEST But can we please try to start acting like Scots again just for a wee while – then you can get back to destroying the SG again.

  106. Legerwood says:

    Martin Gorrie says:
    4 July, 2019 at 7:59 pm
    “”the SNP needs to make its position clear and make a statement on this as soon as possible.””
    The Scottish Government has already done so and effectively delayed the whole process.

    The statement Ms Somerville made to the Scottish Parliament on 20th June 2019

    And for those who don’t like long reads:
    Report about the statement in The Scotsman from 20th Junev2019

  107. John Walsh says:

    What if ( bear with me ) it is taken out of the SNP’s hands.
    Boris is elected Tory Leader .
    Prorogues Parliament on 26th July
    Parliament unlikely to be recalled until September because they all bugger off for holidays in August . Civil servants also.
    Declare NO deal from EU. Before end September. To call the EU’s bluff .
    WTO. See above.
    Now for a BIG leap.
    Tories Suspend Holyrood ? see Sewell Convention , prorogued WM parliament , who’s going to stop them .
    They already run Stormont, so Holyrood next .Edinburgh has 3000 Civil Servants ready and waiting. .
    Tories don’t want a GE terrified of Farage ltd co.
    Labour don’t want a GE 18% in the polls would be 4th
    Lib/Dems do but would go into coalition with the Tories and DUP.
    Even if the SNP win 55+ seats who cares at WM.
    2021 nada SNP. Coup d’etat
    Spare me the riots in the streets. Only if they cancelled love island or Cory.

  108. Neil Clephane says:

    Mr Campbell I don’t know if your reading my comments, but I would like you to dissect Theresa May’s speech today, for me there are some very troubling under tones in it, would really like your take on what she had to say, devolution is working but it would work better if the SNP weren’t in charge in Scotland.

    That is worrying.

  109. SilverDarling says:

    Ms Black will not be disciplined. She is a totem for the image the SNP want to project. Her hard left background referenced in her passionate viral speeches has raised the profile of the SNP in ways they never dreamed of. She represents a bridge between the new hard left Labour incomers and the established SNP membership.

    For me though, this video shows someone who is not serious about the importance of their job and role.

    Interestingly though it has been said that she may not stand again as an MP and this video gives some credence to that. Is she demob happy or intent on destroying an SNP she no longer feels comfortable in and are the SNP hierarchy too afraid to call her out?

    It was said that the influx of disaffected Labour members would cause the SNP a crisis. What we actually see is an emergence of the old ‘loony left’ – apologies for the term – who caused mayhem with their insane policies in the 70s in Labour. Although they are called ‘woke’ now.

    This has nothing to do with equality, it is a vocal minority forcing extremes of views in the guise of inclusiveness and using terms like TERF and bigot to shut down real concerns.

    I am not an SNP member but have voted for them consistently since 2011 and have donated money. I now see a party who seems hell bent on alienating me, an over 50 woman with concerns about self identity, who wants Indy.

    So come on SNP leadership, reassure me you actually want my vote.

  110. Bobp says:

    The unionists must be doing cartwheels.

  111. Jock McDonnell says:

    Lets not forget that there are special interest groups, angry & hubristic, but that they are still a very small minority. They are a small part of every walk of life & in every political party, seeking to further their own narrow aims. No sensible party allows special interest groups to take over or dominate debate & no sensible party supporters provide the oxygen of publicity to allow special interests to gain unwarranted attention.
    Independence is for everyone, that’s the shared goal, a deliverable goal. Do not be diverted.

  112. Capella says:

    Mhairi Black is young. She’s made a mistake.
    “To err is human, to forgive divine.” (Alexander Pope)

    She could, at least, apologise.

  113. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Capella @ 21:16,

    I understand the suspicion, but I think it’s much simpler than that. The SG are proceeding with due diligence, so I think it’s just a few people getting ahead of themselves out of misplaced enthusiasm for a personal cause and losing the bigger plot.

    Which is why I’m calling for self-discipline at this critical juncture. We don’t need any distractional self-indulgence right now.

  114. Ottomanboi says:

    Her sole claim to fame is that she was the youngest Westminster MP. Ms Black and those who think like her might be more comfortable with the flaky, whacky Greens… Brighton.
    The SNP might do well to urgently readjust its Scottish priorities. The party seems to lack will, purpose and discipline under this leadership. The ‘metropolitan’ disease has infected many. Time is running out, likewise opportunities to inflict serious political pain on the status quo.
    A return to fundamentals please!

  115. Petra says:

    If we want to live in a decent society we have to, or should, consider the position of trans people, and support them with compassion, however not to the detriment of women in general. We were informed on here that trans people would get access to women / children’s shelters. That turned out to be untrue. So what are the other key areas of concern, in particular? Getting access to women’s toilets? Do we know if that is going to happen or not? Isn’t this whole issue still under review?

    Mhairi Black should have left this subject well alone, that’s for sure. I agree with some of the comments that she made however the first one, in particular, was totally out of order. More than anything following on from some of the great work that she has done at Westminster and more so at home, I’m totally disenchanted with this to say the least.

    Nicola Sturgeon? I don’t see anything wrong with the contents of her tweets at all.

    What I am really concerned about is YOU Stu. You seem to have used this Mhairi Black fiasco as a means, imo, to attack Nicola Sturgeon / the SNP in the most blatantly ridiculous, nasty and extremely inflammatory way, with your views / predictions. Your ”insider information” comments smack of the tactics used by Unionist rags. Your comments about Westminster MP’s, 35 of them, fighting like rats in a sack for jobs would be hilarious if it wasn’t so serious. There will be any number of openings for them in an Independent Scotland and further afield … Media, UN, EU, Embassies and so on.

    So what’s going on with you Stu? Outlining one reason after another, money, jobs, as to why Nicola Sturgeon, SNP MSP’s, MP’s actually don’t want us to be Independent at all? Is that what you are actually saying now via your ”rational, reasonable argument?”

    You say, ”Readers, we don’t want to believe that’s the case. Really and truly. It’d be a shattering blow. But faith in the SNP among its own members and supporters is now worn so thin that many already do, and yesterday’s appallingly cretinous fiasco might be the straw that breaks the back of many more.”

    You say you, ”don’t want us to believe that’s the case”, however it’s YOUR case and you clearly want us, and others on twitter, to believe it. A ”case” that you seem to have conjured out of nowhere. Better still from the dark recesses of your mind or could it be from someone else’s? Well sorry, but I for one don’t believe YOUR case. And Stu if anything, anyone, is contributing to a diminishing SNP membership (if that’s the case) it’s more likely to be you than Mhairi Black.

    And now you want Nicola Sturgeon to stand down at this crucial moment in time. Now there’s a surprise. You seem to demand this action in the same paragraph where you point out that ”we have no more time to waste, and enough is enough.” So how’s that going to work out when she stands down and a fairly unknown SNP politician (especially abroad), in Holyrood replaces her? How long will that take?

    I can’t wait for Nicola Sturgeon to announce the IndyRef2 date to put to rest one of the most ludicrous comments I’ve ever come across on a pro-Independence site…”independence is in fact the greatest threat to the SNP’s hold on power.” Looks as though you’ve lost the plot now, Stu.

    Anyway I’m off for a walk to help ME to calm down. One that will take me well beyond the 8.5 mile mark to get rid of the sheer anger, frustration and disappointment that I’m feeling right now.

  116. Iain mhor says:

    Not my circus, not my monkeys.
    I’ll just second the observation that Independence requires to win over women. Traditional women can tip the balance to indeoendence far more than very small minority of ‘people’ with some form of gender dysphoria – however valid their wish for greater recognition.

    This elevation from the twittersphere, when it spills into the mainstream consciousness of women, cannot be condusive to winning their support. The only thinking I can put into it, is that possibly the ‘woke’ (If that is correct) believe two things: The first, that the majority who may take serious umbrage are unlikely to be exposed very rapidly and fallout can be contained. Secondly, that there is a mafiosi of influential politicians and players who do need to be appeased. They may be far reaching, UK wide, EU wide, who knows.

    There have always been driven cliques who are pivotal and hold levers of power at various times and circumstances. The depth of cliques would be astonishing to anyone who wanders around believing the world is a neutral place and suddenly begins to find otherwise.
    I’m sure many of us know this fine well though. You may get on in life if you hold to Groucho Marx’ maxim and do not belong to any club which would have you as a member – but the chances of success are slim.

    Whatever power struggles are going on, modern social media shines a spotlight on that dark underbelly. Whatever is flavour of the month gets its fifteen minutes or fifteen weeks of fame. There are very, very many machiavellian machinations in power politics, which roil like prisms of oil upon calmer waters. Ultimately though, no amount of oil can still a stormy sea. If the upswell for independence continues to rise, it will finally break and dash the ship of fools to pieces like so much flotsam – nothing will stem that tumultuous tide…

    I’m here all week with more of such dreadful prose if anyone wants it 🙂

  117. Scotspatriot says:

    Hing Together or Swing apart ?

  118. Graham says:

    I think you should have gone for a longer walk Rev.

  119. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Good to see so many new commenters on here!

    The more the merrier!

  120. James MacLean says:

    RE. Bobp @ 9:13 pm

    I agree in what you say.

    It ain’t Bongelo over Westminster toilet seats.

    As Wings said, some seem to be enjoying themselves far to much down south, which in turn could lead to their integrity been compromised.

  121. Legerwood says:

    Capella says:
    4 July, 2019 at 9:16 pm
    “”If I were a unionist plotting to destroy public support for the SNP, this is exactly the sort of issue I would be promoting.””

    You mean like this site which has returned to this issue time and time again. It has certainly done so more than the MSM.

    Did nothing else happen today that might have lead to a constructive, informative debate on the issue of independence? Maybe like a speech from the PM on her visit to Scotland?

  122. Aon_adharcach1 says:

    This is a very ill-informed post, from a young woman who is social media-savvy enough to know better. I’m truly at a loss to understand the rationale behind it. Agree with Juteman though, such negative publicity will fuel the yoons, dismay the faithful, and result in more division.
    Alba gu bràth

  123. Cheryl says:

    There are many things I’m willing to compromise on in the aim of independence but not this. There’s a big difference between wanting to break up the UK and leave Westminster, and actively voting to sign your own rights away. I know I’m not alone in this. I also don’t particularly want to be part an indy Scotland where women have been encouraged to put themselves last, as we always have been encouraged to. ‘Just wait til after this, just wait til that’s out the way’. No.

    Thank you for writing this piece. I said about a year ago that I feared queer/gender theory was going to be the SNP’s hill and so it is turning out to be.

  124. Harry Shanks says:

    I can’t agree with Stu over this one and IMHO Mhari is entirely correct. This *is* just homophobia re-invented.

    I do understand their misgivings-but if vagina-toting women don’t want trans women to use “their” bog then which bog do tgey suggest they use – the Gents? Do they honestly think that would be a safe option?

  125. Lenny Hartley says:

    Craig Murray thanks , my concern on this matter is purely to do with the damage the MSM will attempt to do to the SNP and the Indy Movement if this subject is not shut down. As we know most people dont look past the headlines and with the MSM apart from one small newspaper being Anti Indy It has the potential to be very detrimental to our cause. . Mairi Black has been extremely naive in bringing up this subject when we thought it had been put to bed. It will be interesting to hear the views of other branch members on the Boat going over to the Auob March on Saturday.

  126. Chardon d'Ecosse says:

    Hi all. Forgive me (I’m looking in from the continent) but I read that the GRA has been suspended in Scotland and England.
    Is that right?

    I don’t know.

    French telly is telling me that an Italian socialist has been elected to head the EU parliament. This is not reported in the British press.

    So, does this, trans, issue trump the Tories’ bid to suffocate the Scottish Parliament – or, is it a squirrel?

    Don’t get me wrong. I am with you, all the way, regarding gender self-identification.

    But, I am worried that we are facing the greatest threat to our very existence, since the Act of Union, right now.

  127. ian stewart says:

    Too many folk taking their eyes off the prize, And not just the SNP. A nonsense and irrelevant article I personally couldn’t give a fuck I just want Independence.. So let us ALL keep our eye on the prize.

  128. Capella says:

    @ Petra – transgender women – who are biologically male (there is no obligation for them to have surgery or take hormones. That would clearly be a denial of their human rights) – are already using women’s toilets, changing rooms, dormitories, rape crisis centres! and refuges. It is a condition of awarding Scot Gov grant, that women’s organisations, who provide support to vulnerable women, accept trans women.

    @ Lucia Daines – trans is short for transgender. People used to be called “transsexuals”. Transgender is favoured now, probably because it elides the meaning of sex and gender, a primary aim of the trans lobby. It removes the concept of sex based rights for women and moves the discussion to gender based rights for women and transwomen. The civil service obligingly rewrites their documents to suit.

  129. Lenny Hartley says:

    Harry Shanks the issue is not a few hundred Trans people using Womens bogs, its the fact that any male perv can self identify as a woman and gain access to bogs and other Safe woman only spaces and the perception that many woman will have of the SNP. According to the polls woman voters are the least likely to vote for Indy and once the MSM goes to work will be even more unlikely to do so.

  130. Pete says:

    It’s time we were concentrating our focus on ‘maw, paw and the bairns’ and giving a lot less attention to the increasing number of weirdo minorities who are given far too much power in society.

  131. Ally finlay says:

    Said all along that best course the SNP had to win indy vote was to say if successful then the SNP would disband. At last vote ruk managed to tie yes vote to Salmond with the “vow” he could have killed that with “we will shut down snp” but didn’t. Big fish small pond and happy.

  132. Cheryl says:

    Harry why is this for women to figure out? The people who actively want to codify this in law should be figuring it out. Or maybe men could step up and make sure it’s not unsafe for other males in the male toilets instead of dumping the problem on women.

  133. Bob Mack says:

    Joanna cherry is no fool. If she has reasonable fears about the GRA,then so do I. Let’s look at the evidence as to why Stu has taken this position.

    Clearly the Tory party have been outlining various methods from their leadership hopefuls on actions they will take to keep the Union intact. They have done private polling on the Union but refuse to release the results.
    We have been saying on this site for months that the Tories may try to shut or stifle Holyrood permanently to make independence impossible. Brexit means they need Scotland contribution to the economy more than ever,especially in the event of no deal.

    That is a clear threat

    Ruth Davidson and Labour talk more about independence than the SNP. Yes? Whilst trying not to infuriate unionists they are keeping their core support actually guessing if they still believe in indy or at least know of valid reasons why it would not be successful right now. I have not heard them on this at all.

    The stars have aligned to give the SNP more leverage than they have ever had in this debate, but they seem keen to avoid it, preferring to focus on (in my view) issues that can be dealt with at a future date.

    Why avoid it? They either don’t want it ,or don’t believe this is the time. If not why not?

  134. Capella says:

    @ Legerwood – the MSM will save this issue for when a campaign starts. Ditto the Alex Salmond trial.

    IMO it is better to air it now than lie low keeping your fingers crossed that the opposition hasn’t noticed it. Of course they know about it. They probably put it there.
    Mhairi Black put it right back in the spotlight.

  135. boris says:

    I just knew this gender expansion thing would end up in a disaster. Stop mucking around with nature!!!

  136. Achnababan says:

    Why are people getting their knickers in twist about this issue?

    I really don’t care too much – it reminds me of Student Union politics – obsessing about some outrage that most people could not care less about.

    Unfortunately the Rev really has a bee in his bonnet about this and he is obsession may distract him from his vital contributions to THE CAUSE.

    I am beginning to think Twitter is designed to turn sensible, intelligent people into adolescents.

  137. Fable says:

    When we get independence..and we must..I will never vote for the snp again… I vote for them to get Indy not to make all these stupid laws nobody wants.. sick to death of it I WANT INDEPENDENCE NOW

  138. Robert Louis says:

    I think Rev STU is right. I’ve thought the same for a while now.

    It’s very sad.

  139. Clapper57 says:

    Speaking as a woman…well I have panic attacks at the thought of using a communal changing room at fitness venues with other women..if I also had to endure this with ‘men who identify as women’ but who have NOT transitioned fully to a female then I personally would have to stop using these facilities.

    I have a friend who is transsexual and she uses female facilities now …which I think is right….however pre op she did not do this , even though she was living as a woman, she actually used the disabled toilet…not the men’s as she was afraid she would get targeted by some idiot.

    I think this is an area where too much willing acceptance of someone simply stating that they ‘identified as female’ and therefore should be permitted to use female facilities is a recipe for real trouble which could massively backfire on those who are currently condoning it and presenting it as if there is no potential risk involved to women….or rather seemingly welcoming it without considering women who may not be as comfortable or as accepting of this situation.

    It is unforgivable of those who automatically accuse others of being trans-phobic when people have genuine concerns . In fact it is all too easy to assume if one has reservations , objections that there has to be a phobic reason to their rationale.

    Yes we do want to have an inclusive society within Scotland but lets not lose all reason and logic and embrace everything and everyone because unfortunately in life there are those who seek to play the system to their advantage and others play along for fear of being accused of being intolerant and bigoted.

    I think we need to tread carefully here and I know that some in the SNP are split on this but as a woman I cannot see how a man who self ID’s as a woman thinks he has automatic access and the same rights as me . If that is wrong then I need someone to explain why and also who will protect me if I find myself in a vulnerable position with such a person who has done this in order to ‘play the system’ to their advantage.

    There is real madness at play here where so much aggression is being directed at lesbians online that I am amazed that someone like Mhairi Black cannot see the intolerance and abuse they are having to endure on twitter. This enforces my doubts and lack of support for those who somehow think it is appropriate to ignore and in some cases endorse unacceptable behaviour towards women online and yet, at the same time, are so intolerant should these women who are being targeted choose to retaliate.

    I am supportive of genuine trans people and know it is really hard for them to be accepted so they do need support and understanding BUT I am very wary of this particular issue of self ID being an automatic right and feel it could be very easily exploited by men who seek to turn this to their advantage and very much to the disadvantage of women…..and that is something that I have a right to feel and say as a woman.

    I am not saying I am right on this but from what I have heard and also witnessed online I think I may be correct in my perception as to who the perpetrators are in this and who potentially ( and in some cases have been) the victims.

    As for the SNP losing their way well all I can say is they are , at this time, the only way to independence …we are so close we can almost touch we cannot alienate anyone and allow this to muddy the waters and I hope this does not cloud anyone’s judgement or future voting intention. I think Mhairi should remember the mandate they, the SNP, have is for independence to be won first…then let’s debate how Scottish society should be shaped post independence…..God I will get slated for this post for sure…..remember I am but only a wee wifie who maks hubby’s dinner and leaves the BIG stuff tae the MEN …Lol

  140. gerry parker says:

    This the lassie that sat out on the terrace at Westminster eatin a piece n chips? Westminster changes people and for the worse I recon. Best all come home ASAP. Call it Nicola.

  141. Essexexile says:

    What’s that scurrying sound? It’s the noise made by the usually vocal Wingers rushing to bury their heads in the sand the second this post was uploaded.
    It’s time to stop pathetically defending the SNP on this issue (actively or by complicit claimed ignorance). Your party has been hijacked by individuals who have little interest in delivering independence.

    I’ve always said, politicians will let you down sooner or later and it seems that has happened in the Scot Gov thanks to their grip on the country.
    Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

  142. MorvenM says:

    Petra says, “I can’t wait for Nicola Sturgeon to announce the IndyRef2 date..” Neither can I. I wonder why she doesn’t?

    Throwing the sex-based rights of women and girls under a bus is not a trivial matter. I’m very grateful to Joanna Cherry, Joan McAlpine and other MPs and MSPs, plus male supporters, such as Rev Stu, Chris McEleny and Iain MacWhirter for trying to stop this madness.

    I’ve been a member of the SNP since the 90s and have never been so disappointed and disillusioned with the leadership as I am now.

  143. Martin says:

    The only thing holding the SNP together is the dream of independence. Once achieved they’ll split into 4. The range of views is so different on so many issues.

    The party has certainly changed rather a lot under the new leadership. Most likely a need to increase candidates but I suspect agenda pushers saw the SNP as a chance to shout loud about things.

    There are many in the party for whom independence is The aim. Sadly I suspect a lot of the (newer) folk are less bothered as long as their own agenda is pushed.

  144. Robert Louis says:

    Come to the conclusion people are just sick and fed up waiting for some leadership and the fight for independence. And, yes, that does mean what it says.

  145. Robert Louis says:

    Martin at 1007,

    Sadly I think you are correct, The party has many now, who just have their own pet projects and independence is NOT one of them.

  146. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Lenny Hartley (9.49) –

    ‘…the perception that many woman will have of the SNP.’

    That, for me, nails it.


    The clear and present danger to the indy movement is not about labyrinthine gender arguments and/or taking sides on any facet of them. It’s about the hairy-arsed fact that the BTUKOK media, at the behest of the British State, will use this as a spanner to chuck in the works.

    We can see, even in this thread, that it is effective. All the more reason for us to get a grip and demand that the SNP find a solid position which reassures ‘ordinary’ punters that consideration of the GRA by the Scottish Government will not result in ‘safe spaces’ being compromised in any way.

    That’s all they have to do. By promoting Mhairi’s embarrassing video they have done the opposite. Mhairi’s tone in that video was appalling. She behaved as though everyone should already ‘know’ what the right attitude to this complex matter is.

    Well, Mhairi and supporters, it may come as a surprise to you, but most folk really *don’t* know what attitude is deemed correct, but they do know how they feel about being safe.

    That’s clearly what Lenny has been referring to and I support his comments.

    I also feel shame for those regulars (they know who they are) who have copped-out on this topic. Like it or not, it’s real. Ignoring it, or worse, dismissing it as irrelevant, doesn’t help.

  147. A. Bruce says:

    Scotland’s independence is what is important here. Everything else is a distraction that we do not need now. Gender issues or whatever can be argued about when we have our freedom. Let’s get real folks.

  148. Legerwood says:

    Capella says:
    4 July, 2019 at 9:55 pm
    @ Legerwood – the MSM will save this issue for when a campaign starts. Ditto the Alex Salmond trial.

    IMO it is better to air it now than lie low keeping your fingers crossed that the opposition hasn’t noticed it. Of course they know about it. They probably put it there.
    Mhairi Black put it right back in the spotlight.””

    Did she? I would not have known anything about it if it had not been amplified via Wings. I suspect that might apply to many people.

    As to the MSM holding it in reserve, unlikely now that the SG has acted to take the heat out of it. They are more interested in keeping front and centre the investigation into the First Minister by a committee of MSPS on her meetings with Mr Salmond. For example, the Herald has had at least 4 stories about it even working ‘Sturgeon’ and ‘vow’ into at least two of the headlines. Their stories were slanted to imply that emails relevant to the investigation might have been destroyed.

  149. Jock McDonnell says:

    @Lenny Hartley
    ‘my concern on this matter is purely to do with the damage the MSM will attempt to do to the SNP and the Indy Movement if this subject is not shut down’

    I can understand that, personally I won’t be getting outraged & shouting about this. Every time I hear that the FM has said something disappointing/contoversial/naive I go & check & realise she has been circumspect once again.

  150. Betsy says:

    I don’t want to get into the trans issue itself but I am staggered by the poor judgement shown by the SNP in their handling of it.

    First they give every impression of trying to sneak it through but then they salvaged something by agreeing to fresh consultation and giving the impression they might be willing to listen and arrive at a workable compromise.

    Whilst it’s not going to go away and will remain controversial I did feel they’d taken a little of the heat out it by agreeing to look at it again. It could have easily been left to die down a bit until the new consultation began.

    Instead we get the ridiculous spectacle of Mhairi Black presumably intentionally, because she’s far from stupid, inflaming the situation with an ill judged, condescending performance that oozes contempt towards anyone who raised concerns. Her response to “Pam” in particular was utterly disgraceful in its wilful misunderstanding of the point being made. For the official SNP account to retweet it was so mind blowingly asinine I actually do get a bit tin foil hat and wonder if they’ve got a saboteur on their social media team.

    I would be equally appalled if say, Joan McAlpine had read out a selection of Tweets from trans people who were upset by her stance on the issue and treated them with similar contempt. It’s a controversial issue, it’s causing division amongst SNP members and voters alike. Is it too much to expect elected representatives to show some leadership and make an effort to keep the debate respectful?

    I don’t mind Mhairi being pro self-ID at all but I am appalled at her treating a serious issue as an excuse to put on a display of puerile sneering so juvenile it would embarrass an 13 year old. She’s contributed nothing of value to the debate and has only increased anger in a way that benefits no one. Women, the trans community, the wider independence movement and the taxpayer deserve better than the grotesque spectacle of an over privileged young woman on £80k p/a, paid for by people who mostly haven’t a cat in hells chance of living so comfortably, treating an important debate as an opportunity to make plain the contempt in which she holds them.

    I, like many people in Scotland walked away from Labour without so much as a glance back when their complacency and arrogance became undeniable.I’ll be equally unsentimental in dumping the SNP if they don’t turn this around.

  151. Morgatron says:

    I watched this through slited fingers last night and was appalled. I’m not interested in the trans , self gendering debate but have my own opinions ,which vary in a lot of respects to MBs. I like MB and what she has highlited and spoken about previously at the HoC. But this was a total train wreck and damaging to the independance cause at a time when the UK state are at the most vulnerable.

  152. kapelmeister says:

    History is circular, not linear. Small l liberals of the evangelical sort who think humankind is on the way to ushering in some kind of liberal utopia are as naive as utopian Marxists. The SNP leadership need to take this issue off the agenda so all sides can reflect soberly and maturely.

    To repeat, history is circular and not linear. Read Ibn Khaldun. Read Vico. Then let’s get on with winning independence and not have this tiresome slanging match. Most people right now are more concerned about what brexit is going to do to their employment prospects.

  153. Bryan Ritchie says:

    Messers Leask and Gordon will be howling with laughter as they turn this into without much trouble it has to be said another Civil War story

  154. Shug says:

    There are so many topics the snp seem to be getting into that are not relevant to independence and I am not sure why. Smacking children, appointed persons etc. Not only are they not relevant to independence they are seen a governments getting involved in a nanny state and will be unpopular to most of the population.

    It is almost like the snp has a death wish at times

    We need to stay focused

  155. Cicero says:

    thought up in Scotland we were a far more open and tolerant society but not so sure…
    As for our
    SNP they are by far the most progressive party in the whole of this UK and we lead the way on a load of different things. I’ll vote SNP even after we get our freedom.

  156. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Clapper57 (9.59) –

    Well said.


  157. Truth says:

    I’m a bit more optimistic on the post indy landscape.

    I’ve considered for years that the party will fracture along several lines. This will be fine as there will be a vacuum in Scottish politics. None of the unionist parties will exist, and their politicians will be largely unelectable.

    There are several well known SNP politicians who will be desperate for their shot at running a party. I believe a moderately right of centre (eg on all this gender stuff), pro business, with a social justice slant will do very well.

    I still believe and hope the SNP are going to pull off a masterstroke, however, as ever, the British are not to be underestimated.

  158. Tony O"neill says:

    I think that the fm,. the snp and my mp are longer overdue a right good boot up the arse

  159. Stuart Jackson says:

    Deselect her that’s the best plan, though I’d say it’s not a hot topic to most people, the article is right, you can’t change your sex, that’s not a transphobic remark it’s just true. Alot of this identity politics come from pop culture consumer identity, something nationalism is meant to counteract. But again I’m not to worried as there’s going to be a big political realinment after independence, I’d imagine including judicial reviews of laws and regulations brought in during the British state. Well that’s what I intend to help promote for one.

  160. Tony O"neill says:

    Who’s side are the snp really on???.

  161. george wood says:

    The vast majority of people on here who don’t see what the problem is, are male. Being typical males, they don’t give a toss about women’s rights.

    It seems to go woosh over their heads that women are 51% of the population and to flush their sex-based rights down the toilet would be electoral suicide.

    If this is to be an indication of what an Independent Scotland is going to be like then women won’t vote for it and neither will I.

  162. A C Bruce says:

    Betsy @ 10.25 pm

    Well said.

  163. Gary45% says:

    The wife and I watched this, regarding the title, I was expecting the End of days, Armageddon.
    More like simmering lentil soup.
    Do we live in an open democracy that allows free speech or is it just free speech when the masters say so?
    Remember the ultimate goal is INDEPENDENCE.
    DIVIDED WE FALL, it looks like the MSM have got their wee trolls doing the work for the establishment?
    Who Knows?
    I got abuse on this site by simply stating biological fact on this matter a few months back.
    If WOS is playing into the Establishment folly, then that’s the end of WOS/Independence.
    Offended? Get over yourselves loves.
    Abuse me if you feel the pathetic need.
    I am finished with this site.
    Establishment win.

  164. BJ says:

    This is from an American site putting out a message to its eight and a half million members worldwide made up of designers, spinners and knitters.

    “”New policy, effective immediately

    We are banning support of Donald Trump and his administration on Ravelry. We cannot provide a space that is inclusive of all and also allow support for open white supremacy. Support of the Trump administration is unambiguously support for white supremacy. For more details, read this document:”

    “We see you, we love you, and we support you”

  165. Proud Cybernat says:

    There are XX (female) chromosomes.
    There are XY (male) chromosomes.

    They can’t be changed.

  166. Footsoldier says:

    The only problem with calling indyref2 now is we still await the answers to questions from indyref1.

  167. Alastair says:

    New Scottish Independence Party.
    I have thought since 2014 Scotland needs another independence party to vote for to broaden the base and target certain segments of the populations. It would benefit by not having the perceived baggage of the SNP and maximise the voting system. I can think of a few who could show very positive leadership by which many would be led.

  168. stewartb says:

    Petra @ 9:30 pm

    The content of the Wings’ blog today specifically on the trans issue is not the focus of my concern here: it is yet another contribution to what is a debate that presently is, unfortunately, generating more heat than light. IMHO I don’t believe today’s contribution on the issue either enhances the debate or improves understanding much.

    What is the focus of my concern is all the rest of the content of the blog that follows.

    You write: “You seem to have used this Mhairi Black fiasco as a means, imo, to attack Nicola Sturgeon / the SNP in the most blatantly ridiculous, nasty and extremely inflammatory way, with your views / predictions. Your ‘insider information’ comments smack of the tactics used by Unionist rags.” and you write more along similarly critical lines.

    I wholeheartedly – and with deep regret – agree with you!

  169. kapelmeister says:

    Anyway, Theresa May was in her precious Scotland today. No one paid much attention though.

  170. galamcennalath says:

    Proud Cybernat says:

    There are XX (female) chromosomes.
    There are XY (male) chromosomes.


    Sex. Fundamentals of nature. Reality. Clear in science and law. Physical. Verifiable. (With the exception of a tiny number of abnormalities)

    Gender. Social construct. Cultural. Fashion. Fluid. Most of it in the mind. Open to interpretation.

    Sex should always override gender. How did we get into the position where anyone would be daft enough to suggest reversing that?

    How could any politician or party get sidetracked into a quagmire?

  171. CameronB Brodie says:

    “The SG are proceeding with due diligence, so I think it’s just a few people getting ahead of themselves out of misplaced enthusiasm for a personal cause and losing the bigger plot.”

    OFFS, the consultation exercise appears to have been deliberately spiked. Who by though, the civil service or the SNP leadership?

  172. mike cassidy says:

    For those who think this is all hot air

    And that the views of one of the SNP’s most popular Westminster MPS on this issue are irrelevant to the popularity of the party

    A cuddly bedtime story from Fife.

    Warning after transgender sex offender placed in women’s hostel

    As they say.

    Watch this political space.

  173. A C Bruce says:

    “There are XX (female) chromosomes.
    There are XY (male) chromosomes.”

    There are many more variations. For example:

    Some people have single sex chromosomes just X or Y and others can have 3 or more sex chromosomes – 47XXY or 47XYY.

    There are many other variations and mutations making the whole subject much more complex than was initially understood.

  174. Fireproofjim says:

    It’s just Mhairi Black being a silly attention-seeker, who has become too full of her own importance after her early and well reported impact as the youngest MP.
    The thing that concerns me is that someone in the SNP found it necessary to tweet their approval on an official website for this nasty and bitter tirade.
    The SNP need to get a grip and focus on the one thing they are supposed to do which is to persuade the mass of the electorate that they are fit to take Scotland to Independence. Not to pander to a tiny minority and in so doing alienate many more potential supporters.

  175. CameronB Brodie says:

    Yes, sex is complicated and messy. None of us tend to fit perfectly into either sex, but the male/female categories have practice value. For example, practicing medicine would be next to impossible without them.

  176. jfngw says:

    Transwomen using a male toilet are in fear in a toilet with men, a legitimate concern.

    Women who fear being in a toilet with someone who is biologically male, transphobic bigotry.

    Have I understood this correctly.

    Obviously a simplified example of the double standards being used but that’s basically the comparison as I see it.

    Also woman’s sport is under threat. Those that say transmen have no advantage, well when I see numerous pictures of transmen taking the winners rostrum in physical male competitions I might agree with the point.

    On the real issue I see the agenda now being pushed is that only no deal threatens the union, the SNP need to remind everyone that that is not the bottom line regularly or be dragged along with the Westminster line. Although it looks like Theresa May is working on a plan to have the SNP removed from Holyrood, she hasn’t much time left to achieve this though.

  177. Legerwood says:

    Petra @ 9.30pm

    You are not alone, totally agree – although I’ll pass on the 8.5 mile walk if you don’t mind.

  178. Bob Mack says:


    So members who dont agree should just shut up and accept a policy agreed between the SNP and vested interest? Don’t think so. Thank the Lord the Rev at least lets people address this issue.

    As a husband,father,grandfather,uncle and male,I have yet to meet a woman who agrees with this nonsense.

  179. Legerwood says:

    Rhondda (Rhondda Cynon Taf) result:

    PC: 42.1% (+16.6)
    LAB: 27.7% (-15.1)
    CON: 15.1% (+0.3)
    LDEM: 13.2% (-3.7)
    COMM: 1.9% (+1.9)

    Plaid Cymru GAIN from Labour.

    Comm: Communist.

  180. Thepnr says:

    Looking at the state of many of the posts on this thread I can only assume that in all the time they have visited or posted here it was because transgender rights were the most important issue to them and not Independence.

    That’s because it’s amazing how many say they are tearing up their membership cards or seeking to replace Nicola Sturgeon as leader, some insisting that the SNP has been taken over by those that just want to feather their nest in London at our expense and who are not really interested in Independence.

    I’m not here to defend the SNP but I will say this, if you could believe that shite I have a bridge to sell you. Those of you who choose to attack them right now are not doing the Independence cause any favours in my view, I have to laugh at how often “divide and conquer” has been discussed on these threads in the past and now here we are doing exactly that.

    All of this too over an issue that has nothing whatsoever to do with Independence and very few people are even aware of. It is but just one policy being discussed in parliament and among a great many issues that are discussed there. There are a good number that rate a lot higher in my list of priorities and I’m certain that’s the same for most folk.

    I’ve never seen or heard of a political party in which I supported every policy they proposed and the SNP are no different, in fact if I’m to be perfectly honest I have no idea what their policies are other than the general direction that they seek to take us.

  181. Proud Cybernat says:

    @Nicola Sturgeon – (I’m sure one of your staffers will be reading this).

    Get a lid on this. Pronto.

  182. North chiel says:

    Stewart b @1057 pm and Petra @0930 pm .Entirely Agree with you both .

  183. CameronB Brodie says:

    It isn’t funny in the slightest, reading SNP members deny there is a problem with the totalitarian nature of this proposed legislation. It reminds me why I never joined a political party, as I didn’t want to compromise my intellectual freedom. I still support self-determination with every fiber of my being though. I just wish the same could be said about the SNP leadership, but events suggest otherwise.

  184. Vic says:

    I don’t think so.
    A lot of people here who regard sex as a binary state of birth are ignorant of the fact that its NOT the same as gender which they are confusing.

    Those who are transgender and transexual are real and medicine and technology has allowed them to realise their true psychological profiles as in become the gender they feel they are.

    Just as Stuart has used links to articles that fit his narrative about these aspects of humanity i’ll post another here. I suggest you read it as it’s how society is whether you agree or not.

    I would also ask how many of the posters here who live with those of the opposite sex have different bathrooms in their homes for each other? Many of us call it a toilet as ANYONE can use it.

    Those who fear those who’ve transitioned or seek transition because their gender does not match their sex need to learn tolerance. Just because it’s not you doesn’t mean others aren’t.

  185. Bob Mack says:

    @the pnr,

    Yes. What direction is that exactly? Towards what? I must have missed that bit of clarity. As far as I know, it is some sort of future referendum at a future date as yet unspecified but possibly after the next elections should they win.
    That about accurate?

  186. Legerwood says:

    Bob Mack @ 11.22 PM

    So members who dont agree should just shut up and accept a policy agreed between the SNP and vested interest?””

    But no policy has been agreed. I think you should read the statement made by Ms Somerville in the Scottish Parliament in which she sets out what the Scottish Government is going to do on this issue in response to the concerns expressed.

    The statement was made on 20 June 2019

    The statement Ms Somerville made to the Scottish Parliament on 20th June 2019

  187. Bob Mack says:


    In my home ,generally the women and men utilise the toilet one at a time.

  188. Orri says:

    What is trans short for? Nothing it’s a prefix.

    In this case it’s being used to refer to, perhaps amongst others, transvestites, transgenders and transexuals.

    Now the latter is someone who’s had the operation and been physically altered to resemble a member of the opposite sex. Similar in a way to intersex

  189. Marie M says:

    Betsy @ 10.25. Great post agree with every word.

  190. CameronB Brodie says:

    See my post at 11:15pm. Of course sex isn’t ‘concrete’ but it is not something you can change.

  191. Bob Mack says:


    This has been shelved due to complaints about its unpopularity. If nothing had been said it would already be chapter and verse enacted.

    The SNP did not expect resistance.

  192. Brian says:

    You can dress up and claim you are the opposite sex and if that’s what gets you through life then good for you.

    The one wee problem you might have is that your DNA cannot be changed. Biology is what it is and no amount of surgery, chemicals and ranting on social media will ever change that.

    It seems however, that a certain type of person seems determined to undermine women by claiming that they are women. Again if you want to dress as a woman I have no issue with that but stop forcing yourselves into the last few safe space woman have.

    If we all get to self ID then I’m a cat. I will sleep all day, knock stuff off tables and never pay tax again. Meow!.

  193. ScottieDog says:

    This just started a domestic between me and the wife :-{

    I left the SNP a couple of months ago for other reasons.
    I don’t think the WM crowd are fat dumb and happy. I know only too well what life in a suitcase is like. I think it’s a horrid place and I’m sure they’d rather be home. That’s just an opinion,

    In terms of preserving YES majority, I would like to see lots of ‘independent’ pro-yes candidates on the list to dilute the unionist vote.

  194. Thepnr says:

    @Bob Mack

    I’m certain they are leading us in the right direction. I see support for the party itself goiung up and more importantly support for Independence in the polls going up.

    Been a long time since it was over 590% but not recently with two polls giving Yes that. Of course we have the anointment of Bojo to come followed by a No deal Brexit.

    I’m sure there a few wavering voters from the No side who will be ripe for plucking after that happens. So what say you Bob Mack when do you think we should we have the next referendum. Fancy sharing that with us?

  195. Vic says:

    Why do changing rooms, toilets and who knows whatever NEED to be sexualised/gendered?
    It’s a changing rooms, a toilet.

    What next gendered streets where only REAL women are permitted ?

  196. Artyhetty says:

    I have said it before and will say it again.

    NO ONE, NO MATTER WHAT YOUR SEX, GENDER, POLITICAL AFFILIATION, etc. will have ANY rights at all post Brexit in a narrow, far right, bigoted, narrow BRITNAT, Trumpesque UKOK. ( British nationalist made up the term, UKOK).

    So we can argue till we are blue in the freaking face, but, come the no deal Brexit that England has chosen for us, October 2019, we are all screwed, it’ll be what bam thank u ma’am, ta very muchly lol! Rights? ha ha ha!

    People need to get a freaking grip, before it’s too late, otherwise we really should just lie ‘down and ‘think of England’, after all, they ‘love Scotland’. Bye bye Scotland, ta very much Mhairi!

  197. Orri says:

    … Pushed submit accidentally,

    Corrective surgery for severe intersex conditions or to align their body with their genes.

    Hence a pre-op transsexual hasn’t had surgery.

    They might also be referred to as transgender.

    Lastly transvestites more traditionally known as cross dressers. Which can be a sexual fetish.

    Not to mention the whole lesbians with penises crap which means “transwomen” with a sexual interest in women.

  198. CameronB Brodie says:

    Do you think of yourself a misogynist?

  199. Bob Mack says:

    @The pnr,

    Sure do. It should have been early 2020 at the latest. Tories will continue to refuse a section 30 order and this will have to be resolved by the Supreme Court. Action should therefore have already started.

    The Tories will neuter Holyrood post Brexit, especially if no deal prevails. Then what? No Scottish parliament with no SNP majority. Will Westminster Scottish MPS be able to force an indy referendum? Not on the evidence so far. They will be mocked and sidelined again as usual.

    Our power lies in Holyrood. Our only power.

  200. Joe says:

    Im seeing a few people who dont seem to get it. 2 reasons its an issue

    1 its Scotlands 1984 moment (think winston and lights. If you dont know what I mean read the book). If we accept something on junk science, that goes against physical facts and actually harms people then we can accept anything that comes down at us. This might be up there with independence on level of importance.

    2 – as a manic street preacher once said: if you tolerate this, then your children will be next. Imagine wondering if your 4 year old kid will show just enough male or female traits for a teacher or social worker to recommend them getting ‘therapy’ to turn them into their ‘true gender’ and if you protest you are child abuser guilty of hate speech. Thats the future if this stuff is not stopped. Its already the present for some unfortunates in the world but i’ll leave people to google that themselves. This is beyond independence level of importance.

  201. Thepnr says:

    @Bob Mack

    We can be sure that there will be no SNP majority if all the members keep tearing up their cards and the Yes support abandon them. I agree, that’s something we can be sure of.

  202. Bob Mack says:

    @the pnr,

    What we agree on should be that people like me have torn up their membership of the SNP, but the same people have all stated categorically they will continue to vote SNP as the only available option.

  203. Colin says:

    It’s perhaps a shame that Stu linked my comment on the SNPs desire/lack of desire for independence to just this Mhairi Black video as that has coloured many of the replies. It could equally well have been on a number of other topics – e.g. land reform. The fact is that the SNP now ARE the establishment in Scotland and, like all before them, seem to be wary of doing anything that might cause them to lose power. While we hear various assertions from the SNP that they already have a mandate for Indyref2, we are now three years from the Brexit vote and no further forward on even just establishing whether or not Holyrood could legitimately carry out such a referendum. Three years lost.

    It’s all very well coming out with statements that we all need to get on board with the SNP because that’s the only way of delivering independence but that cannot also mean that we bury any criticism and follow on blindly. That’s a cult.

    As for Nicola Sturgeon, if she can’t/won’t get on with the main priority of the SNP – to deliver independence – then she needs to move on and be replaced by someone who will.

  204. MarB says:

    Joe- 11:59 exactly, they are feeding them loads of urine. May as well go back to Roman times when anything goes.

  205. jfngw says:


    Well having been in many male toilets I can understand why women wouldn’t want to enter one. Most are pretty disgusting and the urinals seem to have been on fire judging by the amount of piss on the floor around them, presumably trying to put out these fires.

  206. CameronB Brodie says:

    We are in agreement. Gonnae no do that? 🙂

  207. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    I am at an entire loss to understand why anybody would get agitated by this piece from Mhairi Black.
    Found none of of Mhairi’s account of some somewhat odd stuff objectionable.
    Can we move on to serious stuff?

  208. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Lots of kid on supporters who have “torn up their cards” on here tonight. Quite a feat as the cards are stiff plastic and they obviouskly haven’t actually had one.

  209. CameronB Brodie says:

    Dave McEwan Hill
    I don’t doubt you are correct that not all the comments on this post can be taken at face value, but this is a mahoosive issue. Parking it in the long-grass after being caught in the act of passing bad law, doesn’t put the matter to bed, IMHO.

  210. Bob Mack says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill,
    Want my card number?

  211. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    The SNP is doing things so very badly that it is actually at its highest ever point in the polls. Need to do something about this.

  212. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Obviously SNP politicians are not allowed to have opinions about stuff. What utter pish.

  213. CameronB Brodie says:

    Obviously, some SNP politicians don’t understand equality and diversity.

  214. Thepnr says:

    @CameronB Brodie

    Have they actually passed any “bad” law yet?

  215. geeo says:

    Maybe we should all vote fucking labour, abandon independence and burn the SNP at the stake, like what happened to the Templar Knights, as political heretics ?

    The last line on the topic post is possibly THE worse thing i have read on Wings.

    Our enemies will be furiously self pleasuring themselves over it, way to go there!

    Why do we bother, what is the fucking point?

    Do we want independence of good old Scottish ‘glorious failure’, 5 nil up going into added time, and losing 6 goals ?

    300,000 readers just read that Wings thinks the SNP leadership should quit if they do not discipline Mhairi Black !

    Great fucking job .

  216. Hamish100 says:

    MPs, MSP Councillors.

    You work for us – all of us. Not one wee section of society but All.

    Forget that and we can choose someone else.

    You may think that’s unfair and may believe as a result think we homophobic, sectarian, sexist, transphobic other phobic or even Patrick Thistle or Clyde supporters.

    That is our right. Not to vote for you.

    Here endeth the sermon.

  217. Bob Mack says:

    The SNP are at its highest point in the polls because of——Brexit possibly?. You know that thing that could propel us to independence if we were prepared. We are not. The date for a referendum should have been determined already,but it hasn’t.

  218. Liz g says:

    Wow…. Go oot fur the day and all hell breaks loose on Wings…
    This is why I love this blogg 🙂
    But where to even start?
    I think I’ll channel Ken 500 for brevity and to try to get fully caught up!
    Mhairi Black is speaking for her Constituents i.e. Young alphabet soup people not her Westminster one.
    She doesn’t want this issue dropped or kicked into the long grass. Her irreverent posts have been successful for her in the past and this is more of the same. It’s unlikely she would have any regrets!
    She is on record as saying that she sees her future in an Indy Scotland in a new socialist party.
    SNP to the core she is not. That’s the SNPs problem.
    She is a very talented young woman and is an asset to Scotland because of and not despite of her agenda. Everyone has an agenda of sorts.
    Was she in the wrong here? Yes on very many levels she was.
    But she is getting the job as she sees it done by not letting this issue fade ? It would seem so!
    Does she want Indy most or trans right’s most?
    She’s a politician and a Westminster one at that so she’ll say both.

    Was the Rev right to air this now?
    The Women who objected had done a good job and got it stymied here in Scotland, probably till after Indy.
    They spooked Nicola enough to drop it.
    And they are very much watching to make sure they get their say.

    Was the Rev right to say the SNP need a fire lit under them.
    If not him then who???? He has earned that right and then some.
    Wee Ginger Dug was sayin they need to get a move on a few weeks back too
    Nicola herself has said if we want Indy we need to let her know.
    Well Mibbi now is the time to get behind the Rev and start demanding it…..
    Just like the women who demanded the GRA not be waved through!

    As to the GRA itself…. Well it clearly can’t go through till it’s been properly explored and agreed upon.
    I’m willing to listen but Mhairi and her supporters need to stop sayin we don’t understand the issues and start making an honest case!

    I can happily start from two positions…
    One of which is very much negotiable, the other not so much.

    I believe that everyone should have all right’s automatically.
    Only when it can be demonstrated that there is a good reason to remove someone’s rights should Governments be permitted to do so. It has been comprehensively demonstrated that Women need Men kept out of certain spaces,therefore these rights were removed from Men…..
    So mibbi???
    If we start there and work back to adjust anything that needs adjusting, if we can ! Then surely a solution can be found.
    Phrases like ” why should Women compromise ” or ” Trans Woman are women full stop ” will get us nowhere….

    We … Humanity …. have just about got the religions stoped trying to make us reject scientific facts in favour of the narrative of a select few… Going back to that kind of thinking is I’d say non negotiable…
    But progress,progress is, and should always be on the table..

    And just as an FYI..
    My adult children don’t see what all the fuss is about,but all the Women my age are very concerned. What that tells us I’m not sure!!

  219. CameronB Brodie says:

    No but they would have if women hadn’t stood up for ethical rationalism in law. The re-tweet from an official SNP website today, suggests there is still high-level support for the legislation. I hope I’m wrong.

  220. CameronB Brodie says:

    I meant earlier that sex classes have practical value, not practice value.

    By Reason of Their Sex: Feminist Theory Postmodernism and Justice

  221. Dr Jim says:

    I’ve been a while reading probably over a hundred opinions on all this and therein seems to lie the problem, however there seems to be one consistency accompanying all the differing opinions and it’s *let’s bring down the SNP* or similar words, and the folk who are saying it are repeating and retweeting it as rapidly and as often as they can, of course it won’t work but if it does….if it does

    All I can say is good luck getting any kind of a hearing in the new Boris Kingdom world because you’ll be more likely to be getting the Internet shut down and Britain reverts to the 50s when folk got slung in jail for even mentioning such things and in some countries even killed

    Still, I thought Independence was a good idea to get a country where you could talk about these matters and come to some sort of arrangement no matter how difficult the subject, of course I’m pretty old and don’t have that many future years left but I do remember what this United Kingdom was like in the 50s and if Independence doesn’t happen it’ll be no surprise to me if those times come again fairly soon

    I’ve seen them before, these cycles usually happen every fifty or so years, just like fashion comes around again and again and everybody thinks it’s new

    I just would’ve liked to have changed the predicted cycle

    I’ll be at the Independence march in Ayr on Saturday just in case and the SNP will still get my subscription every month to help fund that battle, and they’ll keep getting it until Independence is achieved or I’m dead, I just hope the Independence thing comes before the dead thing

  222. Famous15 says:

    Who in the SNP hierarchy or head office retweeted Mhairi Black’s

    That action makes Black’s pain and roaring at the moon response in line with her own pain experienced in gay awakening more than personal angst but turns it into the area of SNP policy which it aint.,

    Who in SNP towers did that? Sack them cos they are bypassing Conference and that is not democratic!

  223. CameronB Brodie says:

    The civil service had good reason to have originally intended the consultation take a gender-critical approach. That is best practice.

    A Break in the Silence: Including Women’s Issues in a Torts Course

  224. thingy says:

    In the morn I shall identify as a dug. Any cunt who refuses to let me sniff their arse or lick their baws will be reported to the crackpot crew.


  225. Angry Weegie says:

    @Bob Mack
    I agree entirely. Don’t rock the boat, they say. Just accept it for now, we can always challenge it after indy. But what if the nonsense becomes a policy in the meantime? (Remember that the SNP retweeted Marie Black’s tweet.) But what if the nonsense puts people (mainly women) off the concept of indy because they think an independent Scotland will behave like this? But what if those put off indy are enough to swing the result and we fail? Is don’t rock the boat really the right response? Is it worth risking wasting likely to be the best chance we’ll have?

  226. Doreen A Milne says:

    Seems you’re on the mark here, Rev. Check the comments on this. It’s a fecking fiasco.

  227. Capella says:

    @ DMH – can we move on to serious stuff?

    I would just point out that my human rights, as a woman, is a serious matter to me. I will never vote for a party who seeks to negate my rights. It trumps independence. Is that serious enough for you?

  228. Clapper57 says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood @ 10.33pm

    Cheers Ian.

    Jeezo so many battles to fight….NEXT ?…..I dread to think.

    Got me thinking about divisiveness.

    Funny how Tank commander and the Unionists talk about ‘divisive’ referendums as if different types of division in all societies throughout the world are somehow obscure.

    Especially strange to attribute division at it’s worse via a (not so much ) ‘democratic’ referendum..who’d a thunk it Lol .

    When you begin to consider that man seems to thrive on perpetual division ….is there anything anywhere in this world where division does NOT exist with anyone ?………We are so feckin ripe for the taking should the wee green men come to take over our planet….Lol

    Divide and conquer…or as the aliens see it ‘ Conquer as they are already divided’…..Lol

    Sorry just having a wee Spielberg moment….or Arthur C Clarke…or a Sci-Fi Dandy moment more like Lol

    Have a good day

  229. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Bob Mack at 12.31

    You mean because of the brilliant way the SNP has played the Brexit issue I assume you mean

  230. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Capella at 12.59

    I agree entirely. That is exactly what I mean. I have no idea why anyone thinks Mhairi’s piece is deserving of the sort of ridiculous flack it is receiving.

  231. Hamish100 says:

    Was PM May in Scotland last night. Anything said worthy of comment Ms Black?

    Just wondering.

  232. Thepnr says:

    @Dr Jim

    Haha don’t worry I think if you can hang on just a wee while longer then you’ll get the Independence thing first 🙂

    That’s why you’re here and that’s why I’m posting here, and you get to the core of it.

    “Still, I thought Independence was a good idea to get a country where you could talk about these matters and come to some sort of arrangement no matter how difficult the subject”

    We haven’t crossed the finishing line yet, that is still some way off and here we are being diverted from our goal by an issue unrelated to Independence and one that is being discussed in many countries and even by many parties in this country.

    If we allow ourselves to be distracted from the main goal over a single issue like this then we will lose and frankly wouldn’t deserve to win. When I say “we” I include the SNP, Greens, SSP and any others that support Independence.

    In less than 3 weeks time we will have a new Prime Minister, most likely Boris Johnson but it doesn’t matter if he loses and we get Hunt instead. the result will be the same.

    We will be heading for a no deal Brexit unless parliament can find a way to prevent that. FWIW I believe they will and that there will be a general election. Then it depends who wins as to whether we go straight to a no deal or straight to another referendum on Brexit. It can only be one or the other there will be no renegotiation of the WA.

    We are approaching peak opportunity for calling Indyref2, everything is aligning just as it needs too. So this is the time to give the maximum support to each other and all those more well known fighting for Independence and that includes our politicians.

    Especially I must say Nicola Sturgeon, no matter what you personally might think of her she is the public face of Independence and if you undermine her then you undermine the whole cause of Independence. Thta’s a simple fact, why do you thing for years now the MSM did exactly that with SNP BAD and the demonising of Alex Salmond?

    It wasn’t for a joke, they were deadly serious in undermining the Independence cause by attacking the SNP and it’s leader. Stick together, petty squabbles are not worth it, we have a bigger prize to aim for.

    Let’s not any of us who truly seek Independence forget that.

  233. Cubby says:


    What’s that noise?

    It’s the noise of a Britnat noising up Independence supporters. Once again Dr Doom lays it all out there for everyone to see – a phoney independence supporter.

    Away back to stacking your shelves.

  234. Capella says:

    @ DMH – The reason why Mhairi Black’s video is attracting so much flak is because SNP HQ retweeted it. They endorsed it as if it is SNP official policy. They didn’t have to do that. So now – because they have endorsed it – they have to explain themselves to the members, many of whom are women. Endorsing this video negates Shirley Anne Somerville’s assurances that a new consultation will be conducted impartially.

  235. Liz g says:

    Well… Here’s more..
    I actually saw the issues around the GNR row as a bit of light at the end of the tunnel….
    This argument is going on internationally not just in Scotland. Admittedly mainly on the internet…
    It is a conversation many governments are going to have to have especially around sport!
    So I don’t see it as becoming a stick to beat Indy with!

    But as to the Scotland specific one.
    What I thought it showed ( blowing ma ain trumpet here ) was that.
    Holyrood with CROSS party support wanted to go ahead and do something.
    They had been lobbied and persuaded by a minority group.
    They were just about to implement it and a part of the Scottish Electorate found out!
    The electorate started to pay attention and let Holyrood know that they didn’t want it.
    Holyrood dropped it….

    Therefore it proved that when your government is within slapping distance you get the kind of government you want…

    Compare and contrast with Scotland’s Brexit vote and the Westminster responses…. Aye!!!
    Because those above who say we have nae rights with Westminster are right.
    Indy First!!!!

  236. chicmac says:

    WTF does this have to do with independence?

  237. Capella says:

    WTF does this have to do with independence?


  238. CameronB Brodie says:

    Liz g
    re. slapping distance. Have we not discussed ’empathetic reach’ before? 😉

  239. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’m no gender theorist but my training focused on matters pertaining to ethical governance. Self-ID would discriminate against women and be intensely regressive. We’re unlikely to gain the popular support to win independence, in that social climate.

  240. Graf Midgehunter says:

    Proud Cybernat says: 10:46 pm

    “There are XX (female) chromosomes.
    There are XY (male) chromosomes.

    They can’t be changed.”

    The skeletal and muscular build of men is slightly different to women, e.g. smaller pelvis, larger muscles, hormones/testosterone etc.

    You can change the outer form by the use of surgery, forming a vulva or penis for example. With some medication you can alter the body chemistry slightly, but you can’t change a male body into a female one, just simulate it.

  241. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Thepnr @ 01:11,

    My feeling also, thank you.

    I’m just glad I stayed well out of this rammy for most of the evening. More heat than light, when we need to have all our attention focussed on the very real and increasing danger that is steadily heading our way.

    Capella @ 01:14,

    Yes, that endorsement has done real and quite avoidable damage. I imagine that Shirley Anne is fuming. Somebody out there is surely troublemaking. That’s the only sense I get out of it. Zealots in the woodwork?

  242. Artyhetty says:

    re; Chicmac Nd Calella@1,23am

    Yep, votes. It ‘s all so convenient, get ppl arguing among themselves, no matter what about, and you control the freaking narrative. Quite frankly I am sick of the whole thing. Humans have rights, some gits consider some humans not human, they torture animals, they kill humans, they would destroy the planet tomorrow if they thought they could get to planet B quick enough, while everyone else argues over who has rights over who.

    Right, there are a very few, incredibly, unimaginable rich gits out there, who care not a jot for any of us, not me, not you, none of us, they control the media, tbey control the narrative, the message, the news, whicb as we all know is lies with bells on.

    So, what to do? Where to go from here?

    Independence is what Scotland needs and has done for a very long time. Britnats are like a rabid dog, jaws clenched, not letting go, grrrrrrrr.

    Let’s keep our eyes on the prize as they say, INDEPENDENCE FOR SCOTLAND.

    Either that, or suck up to your English masters for ever more, for a few crumbs, while they steal from you, lock, stock and barrel, literally! Ha ha ha!

    No ta.

  243. Capella says:

    @ RJS – Zealots? yes, probably. Someone who wants to keep the focus on trans rights. It’s a wonderfully divisive issue because it is based on a complete fallacy. Sex is dimorphic. It is not possible to change sex.

    Millions of dollars are poured into these lobbying groups; Stonewall, Engender, Mermaids, Equality Network etc. American pharma and surgeons are making a fortune out of people who are trapped on an eternal treadmill of hormones and surgery for life. It’s an enormous developing market with worldwide reach.

    The SNP should reject this medieval shibboleth.

    After the Scottish Reformation, when the stranglehold of the Catholic church was thrown off, Scotland developed an intellectual method of enquiry which led to our reputation for scientific discovery and invention. We became a nation of scientists, philosophers, doctors and engineers.

    It insults my intelligence to now observe that biology is bunk as far as the “woke” community are concerned. Biology still exists in Scotland. I refuse to kowtow to the notion that sex is a spectrum. Show me the evidence.

  244. Liz g says:

    Cameron B Brodie @ 1.29
    Ah but the real question is..
    Were we sober ? 🙂

    Robert J Sutherland @ 1.42
    Tis a distraction we probably didn’t need to be sure,but still an interesting conversation to have, don’t ye think?
    Not just the topic itself which the rights and wrongs of are a fascinating insight into how we currently view human relationships,but also….
    In the sense that Wings below the line is as edgy as ever and more than fit for the coming shitstorm!

  245. Thepnr says:

    Is there anyone reading Wings that actually believes that some SNP MP’s might not want Independence because of their “cushy” number down in Westminster?

    Well first off, I doubt it’s cushy at all. Sure it pays well and your expenses are covered but it’s not a great life if your family are back at home in Scotland. I’m talking from personal experience during the building boom in the 90’s and it was shit even though I was paid well I couldn’t wait to get home. When I did the time spent here was too short.

    As for the MP’s, I’m certain everyone of them would be even better off back here in an Independent Scotland where there would be no shortage of jobs for them after Independence.

    This then I think is a fallacy often spouted yet is without foundation. Whatever became of evidence LOL

  246. CameronB Brodie says:

    Liz g
    I know I was, as I only drink at social gathering. 😉

    “Epistemology” is the answer to this conundrum, a fine Scottish invention. As such, the only way for an individual to ethically claim sex-based rights, is through an individual’s sexual epistemology matching the sex that those rights pertain to. Men and women have different sexual epistemology. As such, trans-women should not be considered women, if law is be rational and deliver social justice. Trans-women are trans-women.

  247. CameronB Brodie says:

    A bit of Phenomenology comes in handy, as well.

    Toward a Phenomenology of Sex-Right: Reviving Radical Feminist Theory of Compulsory Heterosexuality


    In this essay, Miriam argues for a phenomenological-hermeneutic approach to the radical feminist theory of sex-right and compulsory heterosexuality. Against critics of radical feminism, she argues that when understood from a phenomenological-hermeneutic perspective, such theory does not foreclose female sexual agency. On the contrary, men’s right of sexual access to women and girls is part of our background understanding of heteronormativity, and thus integral to the lived experience of female sexual agency.

  248. Liz g says:

    Artyhetty @ 1.56
    While I whole heartedly agree with you about our priorities,and I’m just as worried as you about getting Indy,and soon!
    This issue ( if your not discussing it on Twitter ) doesn’t have to be an actual argument …. Well not for us anyway !!
    Thankfully the GRA hasn’t gone through Holyrood and we are to have more discussion on it before it dose..
    Therefore we should do exactly that. We should unpick it and see where we are with it.
    A minority group are saying they have problems.
    We shouldn’t ignore that surely.
    They have made a proposal for a solution.
    We found it unacceptable,said so and got it stopped!
    They must be at the “very” least disappointed ?
    We cannot in all conscience just ignore that?
    We should now take the opportunity to have the conversation!
    A conversation let’s not forget,they probably thought they did have.
    We ( the majority ) didn’t ask for this,but we did use our electoral power to stymie them.
    Therefore the onus is now on us to at least listen?
    I don’t want anyone hurt because of they way they live their lives…
    The human response to hurt is to ask “what can I do” !
    Shouldn’t we at least take a look to see if there is indeed anything that we can do?
    That’s not an argument Artyhetty, that’s a conversation!
    And have it we must.
    With reason,logic and science as our guide we don’t let those who have a different motive mess with us ….
    Could this perhaps be a subject for our new Citizens Assembly?
    As I’ve said most Governments are going to have to deal with this…. Why can’t we aim to be the Gold Standard?
    we don’t need to buy into ” this is a divisive issue that creates and argument every time it’s raised”!
    That will only happen if we allow it to ….. well we’re not Twitter and won’t be played that way… Aye?

  249. twathater says:

    @ Capella I have read all your posts past and present in relation to the GRA proposals and have found them very balanced but determined that this issue should not just be pushed through , thankfully due to the feedback by concerned parties ( mostly women ) and listening MP’s and MSP’s the decision was made to call for another consultation , this to my mind was the correct decision and MOST people were placated by that decision

    However Ms Black is entitled to her opinion but so to are others who dispute that opinion , Ms Black chose ( wrongly in my opinion ) to further inflame the issue by going public and making a video for public consumption and denigrating comments and commenters who oppose her views , this was further exacerbated by support for her views by the official website

    This has led to people feeling betrayed , that the SNP hierarchy have not kept to their word ,IMO the SNP MUST make a public statement reiterating that the GRA proposals are paused pending further consultation feedback and must apologise for ANY confusion caused by personal opinions

    Thepnr and Dr Jim you are both so right we cannot allow single issue items to cause such division and reaction when we are so close to the main goal , but the SNP hierarchy must also play their part in NOT creating unneeded and controversial policies driven by self interested advisors and lobbying groups

    As has been stated time without number the SNP SG governs on behalf of ALL the citizens of Scotland and preference or precedence should not be awarded to those minority groups over the majority opinion of at least 50% of the population , that is why I am a firm believer in referendums where citizens decide forward travel not lobbyists

  250. Liz g says:

    Thepnr @ 2.28
    I struggle to believe it too Alex.
    I am in London quite regularly and like it less and less each time.
    (Jeremy Corbin ‘s constituency)
    Apart from anything else,the air quality is bloody awful!
    Don’t get me started on the water… LOL.
    But it just not a friendly place…
    I spent one whole week of a three week stay in one of the biggest cities in the world, and never broke breath with another person…
    The other two weeks were with shop assistants and a homeless guy with a staffie!
    I can’t imagine what it would be like to also be in among the back stabbing midden that’s Westminster!

  251. Claude says:

    Identity politics has been tearing the Left apart since the beginning of New Labour in the early 80s – one of it’s first targets was the Women’s Movement.
    A political strategy that’s taken on a life of it’s own, it exists to break up groups by fracturing the social cohesion that develops when there’s common purpose.

    Gender Self ID is currently being espoused by every main UK political party, despite it being a very divisive policy, #LabourLosingWomen
    It’s splitting up the LGBTQI+ movement – transgenderism is inherently homophobic, so how could it do anything else? #DropTheT

    There are now signs, on social media, that Queer Theory adherents – early proponents of Trans Ideology, are now pushing for ‘Non Offending Minor Attracted People’ and ‘Minor Attracted People’ (NOMAPS & MAPS) to be included under this increasingly ridiculous LGBT etc etc umbrella. The ‘minors’ referred to here, are children.

    Lesbians, feminists and ‘old school’ transexuals are three groups who have been working together, trying to make these issues public, and all are being subjected to abuse, harrassment and intimidation for their troubles.
    Trans Ideology activists refer to medically transitioned transexuals as ‘Truscum’ (true scum), while lesbians, feminists, and anyone else who dares to question Gender Identity, are referred to as ‘TERFS’ – Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists.
    From this, it’s clear that so called ‘TERFS’ are anything but ‘transphobic’.

    Transwomen (as opposed to transexuals) are not necessarily taking hormones and most of them choose not to have surgery to remove male sex organs – they’re simply men calling themselves women, as has been pointed out by other people on here. If Gender Dysphoria was the issue, wouldn’t they be queuing up to get the bits that identify them as male, removed? If Gender Dysphoria isn’t an issue, isn’t it just a ‘lifestyle choice’? Or maybe a wind up?

    Regarding Self ID (recently ‘parked’ for a while) women are clearly at risk here – Women are already being sexually assaulted by transwomen placed in women’s prison (the majority of transwomen are incarcerated for sex offences), and women’s domestic violence refuges are providing accommodation for transwomen while ejecting women who object to men being there. Women who have been assaulted and/or raped etc by their domestic partners are being thrown out, to keep blokes happy.
    The legal system and the police are failing to follow the current guidelines regarding gender transition, requiring medical evidence etc – Self ID is already being actioned by people who should know better.

    The SNP have, for some reason, decided to play the Identity Politics game. The end result will invariably be detrimental for someone.

    Gender Self-ID MUST be dropped, or Indy’s likely had it.

  252. Liz g says:

    Twathater @ 3.02
    You make some very good points.
    Here comes the BUT…
    How are minority groups every to get anywhere?
    One of which was/is women ?
    Also a perfect example of public voting not necessarily being a good idea…. Capital Punishment,I understand could quite easily pass if put to a public vote!
    Most people don’t or won’t grasp that it’s not a good idea to give a Government the right to kill it’s citizens.
    They don’t think that it ever includes them!!
    For example…. There’s no such thing as terrorism laws,there’s just The Law,and one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter… Sooo
    We need representative democracy more than we need direct democracy… ( with a written Constitution 🙂 authored by me of course 🙂 )

  253. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Oh HO! What’s this shite? Haha.

    Mhairi being a willing fall guy for the amateur political theatre that is Trannnygate. I hope she gets chucked under the bus – because she’s unbearable – but I bet she’ll come out of it smelling of Brut.

    Anyways, all this pretend-we-care-about-trannies stuff seems awfully like a distraction. Is there something big being sold off to the chinks?

  254. Liam says:

    Dave McEwan Hill says:
    5 July, 2019 at 1:05 am
    I have no idea why anyone thinks Mhairi’s piece is deserving of the sort of ridiculous flack it is receiving.

    Totally agree. As a male who spends more time than most men do in women’s toilets – I am a cleaner and part of my job is cleaning the public toilets. (Some marked ‘Men’, some marked ‘Women’, some marked ‘Disabled/baby-changing’, it’s been my personal experience that most women (not all – but most) just want to have a piss, wash their hands and get out again. Most are totally unphased to have a bearded bloke the other side of the door mopping the floor or whatever.

    Ok I’m a special case in that I have a sign saying “Male Cleaner in Attendance” stood outside the door while I’m in there, – which I had to insist on having, my employers (specifically my female manager) didn’t see why it would be an issue – but I really suspect this is a non-issue bought to a boil by an overly-sensitised few.

  255. twathater says:

    Liz G I await my copy of your written constitution , and my wife says she will never be considered as a minority , she made me write it

  256. Liz g says:

    Twathater @ 3.55
    🙂 Of course your wife isn’t a minority,tut, tut,.. As I tell my kids.
    This democracy thing doesn’t exist in the house,the house is an absolute dictatorship and I’m the dictator… LOL.
    As for an advanced copy of the Scottish Constitution??
    Just ask your wife she already knows.. 🙂

  257. Liz g says:

    Liam @ 3.38
    It’s not all about the toilets my friend..
    In fact I’ve said many time let’s take the debate out of them literally and figuratively!

  258. Liz g says:

    Anybody wanting to report the clown @ 3.36 can add my name!

  259. Al-Stuart says:


    Your post was brilliant. Thankyou.

    As one on here that has actually had to build WC facilities and changing rooms in our building renovation projects, there are, remarkably, relatively decent and effective solutions to this women safe space – v – trans rights issue.

    Build separate spaces that ensure ALL rights are catered for.

    We have been building wc facilities for folk with disabilities for years. To comply with the Equality Act 2010 et al. There is a solution that can be placed into law/statutory instrument that would sate all parties. I would name it the “Four Bog Doctrine”!

    This “debate” and the torment trans issues have caused in Holyrood seem to have Britnat state actor fingerprints all over it. There are 10,000 employees at GCHQ etc. What do you think they do at work? Play X-box and have knitting competitions? No, they task a section with a team leader to bu66er up sites like WoS., and cause brilliant minds such as Stuart Campbell to semi infarct and write threads such as the one at the top of this page. I’ve read through this thread. Empire interests have done a brilliant job in messing with Indy supporters. They managed to throw Mhairi Black under a political bus into the bargain. GCHQ team leader just got a promotion!

    For the love of all that is good, the SNP HQ have the brains and wit to figure this out. Please get it sorted. You will never be forgiven if you fail. Scotland will consign the current ScotGov to the SLAB seats if they fail.


    Add another WC unit in newbuilds (with retrofit caveat in the Bill) and follow the Equality Act statute model to resolve absolutely legitimate concerns on both sides. With that sorted, PLEASE, concentrate on getting us away from Westminster + cripple killing Tories + job killing Brexit millionaires.

    Scotland Needs Independence. Now. First. Foremost.

    Everything else, important though it is (my passion is stopping welfare reform deaths), should be secondary to IndyRef2 and certainly NOT something that would derail IndyRef2.

    Lastly, worth repeating Jfngw as it really puts this issue in perspective…


    Well having been in many male toilets I can understand why women wouldn’t want to enter one. Most are pretty disgusting and the urinals seem to have been on fire judging by the amount of piss on the floor around them, presumably trying to put out these fires.

  260. John McLeod says:

    I watched the Mhairi Black video and did not think there was anything wrong with it. I liked what she said at the end about the importance of trying to listen to each other and understand. I also think that Stuart Campbell’s comentary on the video made some good challenges around the points of view offered by Mhairi. I think its important to put all this in context. Culturally, we have been going through a period, for several decades, where gender identity has been in a process of change. This is extrenely difficult. There is an absence of arenas in which respectful face-to-face dialogue can take place between people who hold different views. This has left social media as possibly the main arena that is being used. Social media not interepersonally responsive. For example, if Mhairi and Stuart had been in the same room, and he had got angry at something she had said, then they could have talked about it.

  261. Iain 2 says:

    I completely agree with the last thread, indy first don’t let the empire forces win.

  262. John McLeod says:

    “We couldn’t tell you how many times we’ve been privately told by insiders – ironically including sources very close to a certain Mhairi Black – that a significant section of the party’s Westminster MPs are enjoying the glamorous London life a little too much, and wouldn’t be unduly bothered if they had a 30-year career there on a nice fat £80K-plus-expenses salary without ever achieving independence.”

    A key phrase in Stuart’s statement here is “a significant section”. My own insider information – for what its worth – is that another significant section are finding it really hard to be away from their families and to spend long hours working in a setting in which their efforts, and even their right to be there, are ridiculed and treated with contempt by MPs from virtually all the other parties. They also have to cope with constant attempts by journalists who are trying to get them on record saying things that will undermine party unity. Despite all that, we can see, on the TV, that they turn up day after day and do their best to defend the interests of Scotland.

    Along with probably most of the people who have posted comments today, I would like the SNP to do a better job around developing and implementing a strategy for independence. I would also like to see them share that strategy in an open way, so as many people as possible can play a part. I do not think that a few SNP MPs who dream of 30-year careers in Westminster is the real problem. What is more of a problem is the apparent lack of a clear idea about how to use this group of talented people. MSPs in Edinburgh spend their time running the country. What do we want (or what does the SNP want) these MPs to be doing?

  263. Malky says:

    Raging, screaming hyperbole is rarely good, and both Wings and MB have engaged here in raging, screaming hyperbole – best left well alone unless you are directly affected by the issue(s) in question.

  264. Breeks says:

    Galadriel: The Quest stands upon the edge of a knife. Stray but a little, and it will fail, to the ruin of all. Yet hope remains while the Company is true.

    For absolute clarity, let me emphasise the “Company” referred to is not the SNP, but the even bigger family of Scots new and old who ALL want Independence for Scotland.

    Mhairi Black’s controversy and the SNP’s “distraction” over Trans Rights and self ID, at least as far as I can see, is a matter for the SNP. They need to get on top of this, exercise some of their celebrated discipline and insert the appropriate fire breaks between Trans issues and Scotland’s Independence.

    Back in 2014, whether you were rich or poor, gay or straight, left or right, YES had a saltire and badge tailor made to fit you. As I recall, even being human was optional as many YES pooches, my own dogs included, would verify.

    Fast forward, (and jeezo, it’s felt anything “but” fast), and YES2019 is fractious, uncertain of itself, seeing trolls and MI5 spooks under the bed. It seems the whole ideology of Scottish Independence can be holed below the waterline by a minority storm in a teacup about Transgender issues. YES2019 doesn’t even know if it’s 2019, or 2020, or YESonceinageneration.

    I’m sorry, I’m a little confused here. 117 days to prevent the loss of our EU citizenship and witness the colonial subjugation of Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution, complete with its authentic origins and provenance from the 14th Century, which even boasts the actual Declaration of Arbroath document, recently designated a UNESCO Memory of the World… and yet we feel the need for this Transgender “distraction”? SAYS WHO???

    Back in 2014, YES excelled at keeping its “radicals” out the face of is “moderates”, and across the whole spectrum it’s Royalists could happily walk arm in arm with it’s Republicans, and all come together for the common good of Scotland. Potential conflagrations were extinguished at the merest sign of smoke.

    I appeal to you Nicola Sturgeon, for better or worse, you are the Leader. Please, for the love of God, get YES properly underway with positive direction and forward momentum before this self destructive exasperation and corrosive inaction destroys us.

    Not some fk off “maybe” date with destiny “sometime”, obscured in the fog of the future… We have a cast iron, black and write, written in ink, unambiguous and incontrovertible Constitutional outrage about to befall our Nation in 117 days, and our Nation, across all its colours and convictions needs a central point of focus and practicable campaign that can be won BEFORE the meteor strikes.

    If you cannot do that Nicola, if you cannot put the crosshairs dead centre on Scotland’s unconstitutional subjugation, then step aside, with integrity and goodwill intact, and let another champion take over. There isn’t time to squander. Our options are already curtailed by the things we haven’t done as a nation.

    We still have most of July, all of September, and virtually all of October. The EU doesn’t believe we can do it. They have closed their EU Commission Office. “Haste ye back” you said. For God’s sake, the Scotland in my heart would see the EU chancing it’s arm to open a Commission just to showcase Europe and hope it might recruit a vibrant phenomenon like Scotland to the great European cause. Instead, we act as though we can’t even give them a commitment,

    We need Battle lines Nicola. Ultimatums from which we will not retreat. Not a wishy washy “maybe” Referendum next year, we need a line in the sand. The subjugation of Scotland over Brexit marks the instantaneous end of the Union. Do it Westminster, and the Unitited Kingdom ceases to exist. The UK is “2”K.

    Over to you Westminster. Your Scottish “partner” has spoken. Your call. Do what you must… as will we.

  265. Ken500 says:

    If there are mixed changing rooms more people can access the facilities. There have been mixdd changing rooms for years. Most more modern facilities have them.

    Women can go swimming with their sons. Men can go swimming with their daughters. Grandad’s can go swimming with their granddaughters. Grannies can go swimming with their grandsons, if there are separate changing rooms they cannot. So they cannot go swimming. Youngsters cannot use separate changing rooms. So people can’t go swimming. Mixed changing rooms mean more people can use the facilities and more people can go swimming. More people are healthy. It is worth more people going swimming and being healthier.

    There have been mixed changing rooms for years, People like mixed changing rooms because more people can go swimming and use the facilities. Mixed changing rooms are popular and safer. Safer for females who use them everyday. There are few problems. They are better for people and communities for access. Millions of people use them every day.

    People should have a shower before they go swimming on the facilities. If people do not shower there has to be more chlorine/chemicals put in the water. Not good for the skin. Everybody should shower before they go in the water.

    The people whio are outraged by mixed changing rooms are the ones who never use them. They are often outraged on behalf of others. They are ignorant. They never use them. If they used them they would know there is absolutely no problems. People prefer them because more people can access the facilities. ie access the facilities go swimming together, or they cannot go swimming,

    The arguments against mixed changing rooms are so ridiculous. Just ignorance. People have been using them for years. Women are safer in mixed changing facilities. They are more open. More staff and people are going about. Less likely chance of bring attacked or molested.

    People who complain the most should go in them and use them. They would find it just allows more people to use the facilities, No problems. It is just ridiculous. The British attitude to the human body. They are so prudish. Women use mixed changing rooms and prefer them everyday. It allows more women (people) to use the facilities with their friends and families, it is a family friendly facility. If tran people use them it is no problem. Everybody can use them. All in together. There are separate cubicles, larger ones for family/friend groups. Mothers and babies. With changing tables and baby pens.

  266. Robert Louis says:

    Independence, independence, independence, independence, independence. Independence, independence, independence, independence, independence. Independence, independence, independence, independence, independence.

    That is what matters. The entire UK is utterly getting f**ked up by Westminster, and is on a knife edge. Good, good people are being forcibly removed from Scotland by utter fascist c*** in the home office* in London, and investment is slowing to a halt. The SNP need to realise this and make it their number 1 priority every single day. INDEPENDENCE.

    We need away from this thoroughly evil English tory rule ASAP. It is really rather urgent, in case nobody has noticed. Not ‘next year’, not ‘sometime soon’, not ‘when we know more’, not ‘when we can get a section 30’, but NOW. I mean, how much more does London have to f**k our country and people up before the Scot gov act?????

    * see Wings twitter feed for details

  267. Tony says:

    Normally a big fan Stu, but I’m not with you on this one. The issue of Trans rights is clear. They deserve the right to live as they wish. The issue of how to ensure that without diminishing others right is hard. And politicians need to be able to discuss it. The tweets MB is reading are very bigoted, there are issues where safety over rides inclusivity such as prisons etc.. but pretending mixed gender changing rooms/toilets are a problem, when they have existed as long as I’ve been alive is just clutching at straws.

  268. Giving Goose says:

    Apparently the Prime Minister visited Scotland yesterday and gave a speech.
    The two wannabe Prime Ministers are holding a hustings in Perth.
    Can we do a piece on these events, please.
    I would imagine a bit of analysis and surgical word-smithery would secure a good many points for the Yes campaign.
    Just saying……

  269. Cheryl says:

    George Wood – thank you for saying that. It doesn’t inspire me to see so many men saying women’s rights don’t really matter, that the trade off is worth it. Well it’s not for me. In the current landscape there is no party in Scotland standing up for women in this. What kind of independence is it that doesn’t value women, that is won on trying to suppress women standing up for their rights? How are women supposed to buy into any notion of a fair, equal independent Scotland when we’re not being treated fairly and equally right now, by not only our politicians but also our fellow citizens?

  270. Ken500 says:

    No one are using mixed changing rooms with their bits out. There are different shapes and sizes. Anyone with their bits out would be apprehended or chucked out There are cameras at entrances/exits, The British attitude to the human body is so prudish. Youngsters have less inhibitions. They are brought up to talk and be aware. More open discussions. Then previous generations.

    Mixed changing rooms are a variation on the older design version of swimming pools. Designed with cubicles around the pool layout, Mixed changing rooms are an area beside the pool. Staff watching the pool in case people drown. Statutory requirement are available near by to the changing cubicles. More staff access if there are any problems.

  271. mr thms says:

    I am watching BBC Breakfast for the first time in ages.

    There were several England only stories but the programme’s presenters are very, very careful to be ‘inclusive’ making constant references to Britain and the UK!

    It is as if devolution never existed..

  272. Essexexile says:


    If you don’t already have a column in a major newspaper you flippin’ well should have.
    Consistently the best commenter on here. (I love you too though RP!)

  273. Iain 2 says:

    All the red herrings are just that raised to distract the people of Scotland gaining independence.

  274. Ahundredthidiot says:

    Black needs to go.


    I will not watch these radical left wing socialists ruin our chances at securing Independence with their identity politics bullshit.

    I remain party faithful, but recognise we have a flat tyre threateni justng to derail us.

    Unionists will be loving this.

  275. Legerwood says:

    Bob Mack says:
    4 July, 2019 at 11:42

    “”This has been shelved due to complaints about its unpopularity. If nothing had been said it would already be chapter and verse enacted.””

    So now you are damning them for listening and responding to the criticism by having a rethink?


  276. Capella says:

    For everyone wondering what all this has to do with independence, I’ll say it again – VOTES.
    To win a referendum you will need 50% + 1 of the registered voters. Women comprise 52% of the population.

    To win at Holyrood and Westminster you will also need c 40% of the vote.

    Those 2,000,000 women also have husbands, partners, children and parents. They also have votes. So you could be looking at 4,000,000 voters refusing to back your plans.

    This is not a trivial matter.

  277. Jockanese Wind Talker says:


    Peter ‘Dark Money’ Duncan on Radio Shortbreid AGAIN from about 08:05hrs.

  278. Lennie says:

    Haven’t even read the comments so excuse me if I’m just echoing what’s already been said .

    It was a disappointing video from Mhairi. A video in which she alone thought she gets to decide what people are allowed to say or think. Too many of her own narrow opinions were delivered as actual facts and anyone who disagreed with her was transphobic or just plain wrong.

    She’s used her own high profile platform not to put forward her opinion to but to shame people into her way to thinking.

    On the SNP as a whole, I have fell out with people for being splinters and breaking ranks by saying and what I now think myself.

    The SNP have allowed a minority to morph the party into something I don’t like and for me it’s seriously is starting to look like the games up the pole.

  279. Legerwood says:

    Twathater @ 3.32am

    “”Ms Black chose ( wrongly in my opinion ) to further inflame the issue by going public and making a video for public consumption and denigrating comments and commenters who oppose her views , this was further exacerbated by support for her views by the official website””

    In the video I saw Ms Black did not mention any commentator by name nor did she identify the people who had made the comments. From what I have seen on here and on Wings Twitter over the last few weeks the comments read out by Ms Black have been made by in one form or another by a whole host of people.

    So no specific identification of individuals by Ms Black as far as I could see.

    What ‘official website’? Link? I am just catching up so link would be helpful

  280. Ahundredthidiot says:


    went to see Robert the Bruce at my local Showcase cinema the other day.

    Movie title NOT up on the outdoor billboard.

    No conspiracy though, eh.,…

  281. Graeme says:

    thingy says:
    5 July, 2019 at 12:56 am

    In the morn I shall identify as a dug. Any cunt who refuses to let me sniff their arse or lick their baws will be reported to the crackpot crew.


    Yeah and if you shit on the pavement somebody better be ready to pick it up

  282. Ottomanboi says:

    Scotland the ‘libertarian paradise’ for minorities, Scotland the ‘free for all’ or what the majority of nationalists want Scotland the sovereign, independent and truly liberated from stultifying Unionist thraldom.

  283. Capella says:

    @ Legerwood – MB did name a woman who had emailed her with concern about the Self ID and single sex spaces issue. See here:

  284. admiral says:

    mr thms says:
    5 July, 2019 at 7:34 am
    I am watching BBC Breakfast for the first time in ages.
    There were several England only stories but the programme’s presenters are very, very careful to be ‘inclusive’ making constant references to Britain and the UK!
    It is as if devolution never existed..

    Yep – English police chiefs warning about increasing crime, including knife crime, and falling police numbers – BBC refers to “Britain”, not pointing out that in Scotland police numbers have gone up and crime is at an all-time recorded low.

  285. Golfnut says:

    Kind of stupid to be thinking about changing horses in mid stream, that would suit Westminster just fine. Another civil war breaking out in the SNP, really. Remind yourself where this burr under the saddle comes from. Remember where the allegations against AS come from.

    Both these issues attack the demographic YES needs most to get us over the line, coincidence, I don’t think so.

    By all means slate Mhari Black if slate you must, but the Yes movement and the SNP need to be thinking of how we counter this Westminster strategy, exposing it for what it is, because they will continue down this road if they get a whiff of it being successful.

  286. ScotsRenewables says:

    I can find nothing about this on any anti-independence sites or in the Unionist media, so why are we shooting ourselves in the foot so publicly with it?

  287. Golfnut says:

    ‘ both these issues attack’

    Should read ‘ target ‘ instead of attack.

    Sorry folks.

  288. Ottomanboi says:

    I do hope the SNP morphs into the ultimate ‘existential threat’ to Unionism and the UK. I hope we have seen nothing yet of the fiendish tricks of our untrustworthy party. I hope the zombie unionist cult is defeated and driven from the land. Deeds not words!

  289. The Man in the Jar says:

    I haven’t read all of the comments but a wee observation.

    Speaking from experience warfare or even practising for warfare from a soldiers perspective usually consists of short periods of intense activity followed by long periods of boredom. Any good military commander knows that this is when problems occur and discipline starts to breakdown. “The Devil makes work for idle hands”

    I don’t think there are any conspiracies at play here but a case of poor management of the “Troops”. Long months of inactivity and nothing to stimulate the party followers has resulted in those idle hands finding something destructive to do.

  290. Ottomanboi says:

    @The man in the jar
    To continue your theme, the SNP gives the impression of being led by braying donkeys.

  291. Muscleguy says:

    I wonder how Black would react if one of the trans rights activists insisted she as a lesbian is required to suck or accept ‘lady dick’ inside her.

    When so many lesbians are considering leaving Stonewall over what they see as moves to erase them and a longstanding lack of activity on their behalf for a lesbian to react like this suggests she is out of touch.

    I signed a petition to Stonewall on behalf of a national lesbian organisation over such issues and my wife signed it as well. If we don’t stand with the lesbians who will? gay men? not on history they won’t. So it’s up to the rest of us to stand with them. Except for Black obviously who seems too woke for her own good.

  292. Frank Gillougley says:

    JUST FOR THE SHEER FUN OF IT, I am currently reading A.C. Grayling’s, ‘Democracy and Its Crisis’ – which goes back to the roots of the philosophy of democratic politics, as for me, context is everything.

    IMO What is happening here with the trans ‘issue’ currently is so blatantly clear to me that I file it under what i call, ‘straightforward SINGLE-ISSUE entryism onto a winning political ticket.’ Q. Would these protagonists get anywhere without attaching themselves onto the back of a host body polity? What we are looking at here is the third reason why democratic politics fail.

    WHY IT HAS GONE WRONG AC Grayling writes in chapter 8 –

    ‘There are 3 main reasons why representative democracy has failed to deliver on the promise of its design. One relates to the operation of the institutions and practices of the model itself. The second relates to those in whose hands lies the ultimate source of legitimation of the democratic political order – the electorate (trump and brexit e.g.) The third relates to manipulation of both the two former by agencies with partisan interests which would not have much chance of succeeding if in open competition with other political orientations on the hustings.’

    Can we please get on with the job in hand. I don’t want to get bogged down in a single-issue argument with children. The SNP have parked this to the side. We are a broad church. Mhairi Black is not a delegate, she is re-presenting the views of a single-issue group here. That is all. I don’t think she can be convicted on the basis of a look.

    Yes, we can come back to that shop and look at that toy later, but in the meantime, we have to get home, first.

  293. Famous15 says:

    “Braying donkeys”?

    See you Jimmy,ye have taken that too far!

    The wise point by Man in the Jar was just right,and why have you piled In?

  294. Footsoldier says:

    Breeks 7:00

    “I appeal to you Nicola Sturgeon, for better or worse, you are the Leader. Please, for the love of God, get YES properly underway with positive direction and forward momentum before this self destructive exasperation and corrosive inaction destroys us.”

    There is deep frustration among independence supporters at the general inaction on independence and this is allowing focus to be distracted and real anger to build which is approaching boiling point – hence this current furore and distraction on Wings – which will delight the unionists.

    Breeks is correct, The Leader has to take action immediately and all Yes supporters need to be put to work now and the campaign which should have been started in 2015 needs starting right now. There is much to do and catch up on before indyref2 is called.

    Answers should be demanded on key issues unanswered from 2014 and in particular things that frighten people such as pensions, savings protection, mortgages, defence and so on. Not endless details but short concise messages. We need decent leaflets, billboards with snappy slogans, professional presentations when live on air and a multitude of other things forgotten while we chase things best done once indy is achieved.

    SNP branch activity, always the SNP’s ace, has been allowed to wither, there is fragmentation of Yes groups. Abandon Citizen’s Assemblies and set up informal SNP Member Assemblies immediately who will tell the leadership exactly what they need to do including media presentation training and role playing for all who may appear on the media i.e. simulate sitting in a studio with a “hostile” audience throwing difficult questions.

    Get moving now before it’s too late!

  295. The Man in the Jar says:


    I wouldn’t go that far but the softly softly approach isn’t working.

    Getting off a flight from London and waving a piece of paper in the air and declaring “Independence in our time” won’t cut it. The SNP need to be more proactive in many areas. I personally am very disappointed in their lack of passion lately.

  296. Golfnut says:

    @ Man in the Jar.

    ‘ never attribute to malice that which can be more easily attributed to stupidity ‘ the last part of the quote is rarely sited, ‘ but never rule out malice ‘

    Westminsters weapon of choice is division.

    I agree with the idle hands bit though.

  297. Ottomanboi says:

    Treading on the road of cultural stereotyping I have encountered among elements of the English a latent tendency to sexual ambiguity. The French in particular, have noted a certain orientation to transvestism, pederasty and saphic practices. Is it in the water, the education system, genetic? However, what bearing that observed national proclivity might have on Scotland, a land not noted for such deviance, is mystifying.
    Why would a party dedicated to liberating its land from foreign oppression annex something that has no place in that political context?
    Is this yet another manifestation of that insidious ‘unionism of the mind’, the most tenacious facet of ‘unionism’ to eliminate from the national consciousness?
    This distraction must be returned to sender.

  298. AuldAlliance says:

    Please get back to doing what you do best. Your recent fixation on a personal spat with Keziah Dugdale and now transgender issues is a complete waste of your own and your readers time. Black is entitled to her opinion. You disagree. Fine. Back to winning independence please.

  299. galamcennalath says:

    Just think, all this negativity Mhairi has provoked could have instead been a stirring presentation about Scottish women’s need for independence ASAP. Priorities!

  300. Bibbit says:

    Paisley & Renfrew South – Labour Gain.

  301. Armitage Shanks says:

    I wonder if Mhairi would have responded in the same manner prior to her election? Blatant Virtue Signaling. It’s understandable a nice juicy pension and overblown salary, repeat the directives and narratives from our overlords so as not to be labeled transphobic, homophobic and any other phobic recently invented ensures any honest debate is shut down and the liberal agenda continues.
    It’s sad but get used to it. look at some of the comments on here MSM rhetoric to shut down debate from those with slightly woke opinions. Some may be waking up to the fact there are 2 sets of chains that need to be shaken off.

  302. Cheryl says:

    Why are people suggesting this is some kind of Westminster plot to undermine indy? This is Nicola Sturgeon’s horse. Her position as darling of the LGBT community obviously means a great deal to her. The SNP government has created a situation where women’s orgs reliant on government funding must buy into gender/queer theory or they’re not considered for funding. This is all the SNPs own doing.

  303. jfngw says:

    Well this video has stopped us talking about the threats to Scotland inherent in Theresa May’s revue. She wants to effectively remove Scotland as a entity (she has no respect or interest in the Claim of Right) and make the UK a single country (effectively England).

    We will be arguing while the powerful strip our rights and nationality. They’ve stamped on Scotland’s desire for self determination before and they intend to do it again.

  304. Ali says:

    There’s nothing offensive in that video. I feel like you’ve never met a trans person in your life. The existence of AGP does not means that trans people are expressing it – they aren’t. The language of “trans” is misleading as these people want only their gender to be recognised – not changed. Gender identity is largely neurological, yet a large number of people can’t see past the crotch. The majority believe in hanging – are we having that too? Once the majority smoked. Were racist. Were religious. Were (are?) clearly homophobic. We locked up gay men just for being gay. Should we have stayed that way? There are even rumours abroad that some supercilious types mock the majority of Scottish people who believe in the Union…

  305. Terry callachan says:

    A very complex subject
    Yet here we have wingsoverscotland once again veering off track and taking a particularly narrow view about this complex subject which requires
    Medical expert option
    psychological expert opinion

    There is more to this subject than men wanting to change their ID to a woman so they can sexually assault women
    If you don’t see that basic fact which was confirmed in the Scottish governments recent review which took opinions from experts worldwide
    Then you are a fool

    OK ms black is foolish to say some of the things she has said
    But so is wingsoverscotland

    Neither are experts in this subject

    Sadly Scottish independence is being drawn into an area where it should not be

  306. Clootie says:

    Every conversation, article, speech is about what the trans community wants. The concerns raised by woman are aggressively dismissed ( I include Mhairi)

    Women raising valid concerns that their hard won equalities are being undermined. That their competitive sports are being crushed and their right to privacy removed. However the most critical concern is their safety in places such as a domestic violence refuge OR the distortion of health data which is going to be skewed.

    every organisation appears to close down all raised concerns as transphobic. My own judgement in reading comments on social media is that reasonable concerns by woman are attacked by an aggressive organised group.

    In conclusion we now appear to have all debate closed down. The questions and concerns unanswered. A political sea change in which aggressive behaviour is rewarded. Universities in which debate is stifled

    I don’t care if someone wishes to identify as a woman for genuine reasons. However simply changing the law without debate regarding the rights of more than half the planets citizens is very wrong.

    If debate on this topic is crushed then all debate is crushed.

    Rev – well done. You have given a oasis of reason in a World dominated by those attempting to crush free speech.

  307. ghostly606 says:

    I left the SNP about 2 months ago for this very reason. Whilst I will continue to vote for the SNP to further the changes for independence, I will no longer fund them. Will put £ into Yes campaigning instead.

  308. Marco says:

    As much as I like this blog and have donated on several occasions, all of these posts about gender issues massively turn me off. I really think it’s deeply counterproductive to the cause of independence to get involved in discussing anything to do with gender issues. It’s a separate subject; a debate for civil society and political parties (who cannot ignore it, especially MB as a gay woman) – it is not a core pillar of the Yes movement.

    The subject is so highly charged that you, in this blog, cannot make any significant point without offending a lot of people on one side or the other (or at least making most readers cringe). Please stop, it’s really not helping.

  309. schrodingers cat says:

    @Conan the Librarian



  310. Famous15 says:

    I feel sooooo threatened by Theresa May’s calumny!

    Listen to the evil she directs at Scotland.

    She wants us destroyed and vanished from the face of the earth.

    Let us not give her views an easy ride.

    Oppose her Tory views !

  311. Bill McLean says:

    I’d like to be six foot 4, 12 stone and as handsome as all day long – but i’d rather Scotland was free! Division of this nature is going to destroy our chance of freedom. The progressive moves that many people in this argument want would never come about with Westminster back in total charge and if we don’t get together to beat them, that’s exactly what is going to happen! In an independent Scotland with a progressive outlook most things are possible. I could get younger, taller, slimmer and better looking! Time for some mature thinking. Falling out is exactly what Westminster wants – why help them?

  312. Terry callachan says:

    Here we have an article by CommonSpace who supposedly support Scottish independence detailing how the unions GMB and Unite have slated the Scottish government because the new large offshore renewables work on the east coast of Scotland which is to be done by foreign company EDF may not award jobs to the local BiFab company in fife but may give the work to a company in Indonesia

    What they strangely don’t mention is that the Scottish government has no control whatsoever over who the contract is awarded to let alone who the contracted company EDF subcontracts work to.
    EDF was awarded the contract by Westminster NOT Holyrood.
    Energy policy in Scotland is not devolved it is controlled completely by Westminster

    CommonSpace is for my liking too often a common space for the likes of GMB and Unite who are clearly led by britnat officials .
    Giving them a place to tell lies and blame the Scottish government for things that Westminster is to blame for is extremely devious and shows they are not supporting Scottish independence at all.

  313. Capella says:

    @ Cheryl – the Gender Recognition Act 2004 was passed in – 2004. At that time, there was a Labour Government in Westminster and in Holyrood. In fact, the Bill first appeared in the House of Lords. Interestingly, peerages are specifically exempt from its provisions.

    Th SNP are committed to making Scotland a fairer place. That is a very noble aspiration. Nobody should suffer discrimination or loss of their human rights.

    Unfortunately, they have listened too much to lobby groups for LGBT rights and not enough to the women whose rights will be eroded.

    Fortunately, they have realised that and done something about it.

    But the original problem is the GRA 2004 which is a Westminster, UK piece of legislation which enshrines a travesty of science. It should be repealed or, at least amended. It is a reserved matter.

  314. Essexexile says:

    It’s a natural law of politics that the longer you spend time in power the more you surround yourselves with people who agree with you.
    It’s why Thatcher went fully batshit crazy and New Labour became arrogantly out of touch.
    I still strongly believe that NS is a world leader in waiting but she could do with some more dissenting voices around her at the moment.

  315. Ahundredthidiot says:

    we should be on the offensive not the defensive…

    thanks Mhairi….

    now do the honourable thing and quietly stand down for damaging the independence campaign

    …you have given the enemy ammunition to inflict pain upon us….AKA losing votes

  316. HandandShrimp says:

    I don’t really care what people ID themselves as. However, if a woman is repulsed by a penis she should not be told she is in the wrong and forced to confront them in women only spaces. Trans people with a penis might do better to take a more concillatory line towards lesbians who will not entertain a penis. A straight man in a dress in the girls changing room is still a straight man…quite possibly with a husband bulge. Trans change has to have more to it than just a five second self ID. That people want to make that journey is fine but let’s apply some sense and safeguards so everyone is protected.

    That is it though. The world is frying, poverty is increasing, right wing loons and dictators are taking over the reins of power and the economy is faltering. This side show doesn’t rate 0 on my Richter scale. It certainly won’t impinge on my support for the SNP because where else is there to go? Greens? Labour? I think even the Liberals are supping from this cup and I still think Scotland can do a better job as an independent country. So while politicians may wear sack cloth and flail themselves over this minefield I will stay fixed on the main prize.

  317. Luigi says:

    Terry callachan says:
    5 July, 2019 at 10:06 am

    OK ms black is foolish to say some of the things she has said
    But so is wingsoverscotland

    Aye, but Ms Black is an elected representative, an SNP MP.

    Big difference.

    Sigh,. I am really disapointed with all this nonsense. I do understand why the rev feels he has to tackle this head-on before it burns out of control. I also understand Ms. Black’s strong feelings about it. Personally I don’t care for this issue but I understand some people do and they feel passionately about it.

    Ms Black is academically intelligent. However, she has acted very naively in a political sense, which surprises me. very silly move – the timing could not have been worse. Support for independence is on the verge of a big breakthrough (50% barrier) IMO and to bring this stuff to the light right now is utterly foolhardy. How the BritNats must be licking their lips. Ms Black is in for a rought time at the next election – there will be big guns fixed on her and it’s entirely her own fault.

    That said, she is still very young and allowed to make a couple of blunders. What really concerns me is that it seems to have been sanctioned (or made to appear as such) bat the highest level of the SNP/SG. The retweet source must be identified and reprimanded. Unlikely as folk have already mentioned, but it needs to be rooted out if someone is trying to use the SNP to force through their pet issues, which are otherwise unpopular and unelectable issues.

    We have seen this before – cue the demise of the Labour party. Learn from their mistakes, or suffer the same fate.

    What we are witnessing is a result of the indy movement, SNP in particular turning in on itself, for lack of a big cause, a big fight. Idle hands make mischief. We sorely need the indy campaign to kick off in a big way now. We have no focus, no big fight, and so people are finding other issues to fight about.

    Time now to up the stakes and get people re-focussed on the real issue – Scottish Independence.

    Could be a long, hot summer. In a political sense. 🙂

  318. Bob Mack says:


    Brilliant post. The Trans debate is only a symptom of a greater malaise. Like soldiers we are waiting to go over the top, but inaction at headquarters delays our nervous energy and so we look for an outlet. Any outlet.

    Every single one of us on this site knows time is imperative,and yet we are receiving no messages to say our generals have everything in hand and are laying the groundwork for success.

    We are the guys who go into battle on the streets and doorsteps. We need clear leadership and direction at this time.

  319. Alex Waugh says:

    Regardless of the validity of arguments on either side of the whole trans SNAFU, it strikes me as ill-advised and possibly egotistical for a high-visibility SNP figure to come out with this snark at a time when, as has been pointed out, those least likely to vote for independence are women and older people. Most folk don’t make it past a headline and these groups (particularly older women – and I am one) can now be told that there is somehow a threat – ill-defined or misunderstood as it may be – to their safety and that the SNP is just fine with that. That they will be exposed to headlines braying exactly that distortion is more or less guaranteed, given the MSM delight in “SNP baaaad…”. Talk about giving your enemy a stick to beat you with?!

    I say egotistical because a moment’s reflection should have yielded the realisation that it doesn’t matter what any individual thinks should happen in Scotland in the future if there is no guarantee that Scotland even HAS a future. There should be one focus only and that is the gaining of independence – everything else can wait. I don’t care what the SNP or its individual MPs think about this overblown, essentially distracting issue. All I want them to do is fight for Scotland’s escape from the toxic Titanic of the UK – eyes on the prize, folks!

  320. Cod says:

    Under the current rules males have to live as females for two years before being allowed to transition (or indeed females wishing to live as males). This means dressing as the opposite gender, and using opposite gender only spaces, living as the opposite gender for that entire time. So, male bodied people have been using women only spaces, complete with penises, for many years already. And yet, this issues of being unsafe has only really risen in the last couple, since the announcement of the review of the GRA.

    Things like non-gendered toilets and changing rooms are essential in a society where there are increasing,although still relatively small, numbers of non-binary gendered or transgendered people. Many of these people, both sexually male or female, feel uncomfortable, or unsafe, with their gender assigned toilets or spaces, quite often with good reason. However, the eradication of biological sex single gender spaces is also not a solution, since it makes a far larger number of standard binary gendered people feel uncomfortable, or unsafe, particularly women who have been the victims of sexual violence – and sadly there are far too many of that group. As some writers have noted, the answer may not to be do away with single sex spaces, but to add non-gendered spaces in addition to them. That way, everyone has a choice of what to use.

    Additionally, statistics would appear to show (I say appear, because there have not been any particularly large studies done so far) that assaults of a sexual nature against women born as women increases where the only spaces available are non-gendered, but that assaults against non-gendered people do not decrease. This is, clearly, the worst of all worlds.

    It’s a complicated minefield of an issue, exacerbated by a multitude of issues, which most people respond to on an emotional level, unsurprisingly, and which is exploited by groups on all sides, and made more dangerous by a small minority of sexual opportunists who will do whatever they need to in order to give them an advantage and opportunity to commit sexual assaults. The fact is that the majority of people seeking to change their gender (you’ll note I did not say their sex) are just like everyone else – seeking to be happy in their lifes. A small minority give them all a bad name, and are used to stoke the fears of everyone else.

    In fact, the biggest problem is non-gendered spaces is not those seeking to live as a different gender, but traditional biological males who are happy being males, and who have always been the biggest threat to women, and indeed to other males, throughout history. Most sexual assaults are caused by biological sex males, most sexual harassment is caused by them, MRA and incel groups who fantasise about rape and murder are stuffed to the gills with biological males who have no interest in being any other gender. And yes, the majority of men are not sexual predators, obviously, but the fact remains that the majority of sexual violence or incidents with a sexual element from rape to sexism, are carried out by biological males identifying as males. Something to think about perhaps.

    As to the GRA review, I’m not sure why the current requirement to live in a gender role for two years before being allowed to declare as the gender you wish to live in is a problem. But then I’m not one of the people being asked to do it, and I haven’t done enough speaking to people going through it to understand the problems in any depth, something I would wager is the truth for most of us. On the other hand, it seems self-evident that allowing people to self-identify with no restrictions is far too open to abuse by those always seeking to exploit societies loopholes to further their own twisted aims, and takes no account of the tsunami of women who are already the victims of sexual violence, mostly at the hands of biological males identifying as males, and the fear of those women that single gender spaces would be invaded by those same biological males.

  321. Cod says:

    The other thing to bear in mind is that this is a non-issue for the moment in any case, since the Scottish Government shelved the plans for the GRA review and any changes, at the start of July.

  322. Proud Cybernat says:

    Place X in one box only:

    Scotland should be an independent Country [ ]
    Scotland should legalise Self-ID [ ]

    Think about it.

  323. Terry callachan says:

    Bill McLean your post 1029am

    Well said bill.

    Why on earth do we find these subjects being discussed at this time of great importance to Scottish independence , by our leading politicians and also here on a Scottish independence website .
    These are clear examples of BOTH , “ not getting on with the day job”.

    There is so much we need to discuss about the future of the masses in Scotland housing health education and how we will break free from UK these are all the here and now type of things we should be discussing.
    Quite frankly gender ID is a minority issue best left to the experts of which I am not one and neither are ms black or wings.

    Giving people a nice house , we have the space and tools to do it in this massive country
    Giving people a well paid job such as building nice houses with decent sized rooms and enough rooms for each child to have their own bedroom and also a wee garden
    These are things that every family in Scotland can and should have

    Getting rid of damp dingy ancient tenements and other poor quality homes where a huge rent is charged because there is no alternative on offer is absolutely terrible in this day and age this is what we should be discussing

    Giving people jobs to chase down those that don’t declare their true income and don’t pay their taxes that’s what we should be discussing

    Giving people jobs to track down who owns land and property in Scotland and finding out where these people live and then checking that they are declaring their ownership correctly so we can obliterate the secrecy it is hidden behind at present that’s what we should be discussing.

    How we are going to transform this magnificent country and give ordinary people their pride back all it takes is a nice house , a decent job that pays properly and folk will get on with making a happy life.

    What we see are a lot of people vastly overpaid getting percentage pay rises and percentage pension contributions from the rest of us through tax relief those people get better working conditions shorter working hours longer holidays it’s a disgrace that we have so many of them living such an extravagant life whilst so many live on a pittance in squalid flats and ancient semis leaching the expensive heating they get.

    Look around you and check out the cars that cost fifty sixty seventy thousand pounds each the people who can spend money buying flats for a hundred thousand or less and then rent them out to the poorest for £500 a month and more which is then paid for from our taxes.

    It all has to change
    Those who have become accustomed to the lazy lavish untouchable lifestyle will squeal loudest

    MP,s who run businesses , often on several boards of companies as directors , that has to stop too all this nonsense that we have to have them for expertise is untrue there are experts who are not compromised by private interests like that and paying people salaries of half a million or a million giving them half their salary as a yearly pension when they retire that has to stop too.

    Get the less fortunate in a nice house with enough decent sized rooms good insulation and a garden and a decent paid job FIRST , until that is achieved cap those at the top of the pay scale and that will give them the incentive to see the job done.

  324. Dave MacIntyre says:

    Like most folks on here, I am an avid reader of Wings every day if I get the chance, but the only thing I can say about some of the posts on here are that they makes me feel profoundly sad.

    Some members of the SNP have actually given decades of their life to the cause of Independence with the incredibly hard work they do to make things happen behind the scenes in their branches. It’s the same for most of our elected representatives who have worked tirelessly for the cause and to now see people calling that commitment into question and tearing up membership cards is, in my opinion, wrong.

    We aren’t going to agree on every issue but, one thing that shouldn’t be questioned, the core reason for the SNP as a political organisation is still to achieve Independence.

    What follows the achievement of that monumental goal? Who knows?
    The party may indeed splinter or reinvent itself as a Social Democratic party. I don’t particularly care at this moment in time, because the goal is now well within touching distance as the polls are telling us on an almost daily basis.

    Of course, they will make mistakes in strategy and in other areas, as this article and others clearly shows, for nobody is perfect, but I for one will continue along the road with them for a bit yet as I believe the SNP still have what it takes to make the Independence dream come true.

    It’s good to look at things with a critical eye and try to see things in a different light, which is why we all read Wings, but let’s not lose sight of our common goal either.

  325. Clydebuilt says:

    Us: Support for independence is at record levels and rising. All We have to do is sit back the Tories are deliverring independence for us.

    Them: How are we going to stop it.

    Them: Start by dividing up the support get the 77th to tear up their SNP memberships.

    Me: Bollocks to this.

    There’s a process going on here which this site is facilitating.

  326. Iain mhor says:

    If anyone is still feeling miserable and is in the vicinity of Ayr at the wekend – go along and join the Independence march – that’ll cheer you up.

    Unless one’s fixation will be on the alleged clandestine activities of AUOB. In which case you’ll be miserable again. Of course it’s all ‘clandestine activity’ – SNP politicians, Independence bloggers and vloggers, YES hubs, Indy marches, Flag wavers, Devolution, the Scottish Parliament and supporting Independence for Scotland in general – all subversive activities undermining the Precious Union.

    As such, the purveyors and perpetrators of doom, will suggest that it is right and proper, that such villainous agitators and their iniquitous activities, should be held in contempt. Anyone capable of actively undermining the utopia of our Precious Union, is clearly engaging in wanton criminality and surely guilty of other nefarious acts. No right minded citizen of our Precious Union would act in such a manner. Lock up their ringleaders, they are guilty of something, never mind what, just get them off the airways and off our British streets. Decimate, demonise and incarcerate their supporters, replace their hope with fear.

    Or perhaps go and have a fantastic, affirming day out in Ayr. Forget about the your inherent subversive criminality and of all those around you – just embrace your open and deviant defiance of the Precious Union. If the sun shines, so much the better, for it is down by the shore – which means a pokey hat and a poke of chips, a sea of saltires and a happy heart.

  327. Scozzie says:

    These SNP gender crusaders (MPs / MSPs / Councillors etc) are either unintentionally or intentionally derailing the push for independence. Where is the party discipline? Anyone who bothers to research these GRA reforms knows that this will be bad policy and bad law. And as Capella and others have said – it does directly affect the fight for independence as these changes will impact negatively on women (50% of the electorate).

    Make no mistake the announcement in the Scottish parliament did not bin these reforms, only that further consultation would happen.

    Transexxuals rightly have protected status and no women that I know objects to that – self ID blows our rights wide open. If ‘trans women are women’ in law; it follows that we are then changing the scientific and legal definition of what is female / women and thus opening our sex-segregated spaces to anyone with a penis who happens to ‘think’ they are a woman.

    I personally do not see what is wrong with the current GRA as it stands. I think it is right that a person needs a clinical opinion before a GRA certificate is offered.

    There is also an insidious pretext to this, the trans lobby for some reason carries real influence within the Scottish Government, many are directly funded by the government and the trans lobby have also helped formulate the questions on the original consultation – e.g. conflating the definitions of sex and gender in the questions asked.

    I have argued before that the SNP are losing sight of the push for independence and coasting along complacently with too little action, too late. The Referendums Bill should have been sitting in the bag, good to go when timing was right (in my opinion that is now), not sitting as stage 2 of the Bill’s process.

    IMO I don’t think it gives the Unionists any cause for pleasure that the independence movement is now calling for swift and decisive action from the SNP; in fact I think it will terrify them even more. Because when the movement is saying loud and clear ‘now is the time’ – the Unionists will be shitting themselves. They would love nothing more for the independence movement to sit patiently for the SNP to get their act together. And I strongly feel they need to get their act together! Time is not on our side anymore.

  328. Terry callachan says:

    To Luigi says 1042am

    Wingsoverscotland has a great deal of responsibility and clout on subjects like this and can probably influence more people on this website that Ms Black.
    Most of us probably wouldn’t have even known about her discussion if it were not for this story by wings .
    Both have a responsibility
    Ms Black being an MP will be held more accountable I would say because she is paid a salary and can be sacked by the voting publication election time.
    Wings always has the fallback power of blocking people shutting up shop and saying it’s my website I will do what I want with it but can’t be sacked or voted out of power although I guess visiting numbers can go down as well as up.

    I think both should have their say but it’s clearly not good for a Scottish independence forum is it

    The thing is free speech is good but it can cause trouble when people talk about things in the wrong place to the wrong people at the wrong time

  329. Joy Merryweather says:

    Thanks for supporting women. There aren’t many prepared to stick their head above the parapet. It will not be forgotten.

  330. Athanasius says:


    It’s called abductive reasoning, sometimes known (not entirely correctly) as inference to the best explanation.

  331. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Cod at 10.52

    Exactly. The main mass of the public are entirely oblivious to this “debate”. It only becomes a major issue if we start jumping up and down and shouting about it.
    It is very important indeed to those affected directly by it or involved in it and they have every right to express their views or their ambitions. Whether I agree or not is my right.

  332. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Terry callachan at 10.30

    Agreeing with you there,Terry

  333. Golfnut says:

    @ Clydebuilt

    Westminster will be laughing at all this agro and division, which they slowly and surely generated, designed to target specifically the female vote. Wake up people, for goodness sake.

  334. Cod says:

    I’m curious as to why my post is still awaiting moderation, while later posts by others, which are of equal length, are already available to view and read? Is there some sort of algorithm which decides which posts are immediately posted and which are held for moderation?

  335. Alex Birnie says:

    When Wings over Scotland – the second most important weapon in the indy armoury – is used by Stu to further his own personal non-political beliefs – to the point where he casts doubt on the integrity of the SNP leaders and members, then we’re screwed. I watched the video, and am genuinely bemused at Stu’s anger, but leaving that aside, he has thrown the baby out with the bath water, in a fit of self-centred pique. Unionists 1 Indy voters 0.

  336. Republicofscotland says:

    A completely stupid thing for Black to do at such a crucial point in time with regards to the next indyref approaching. She should be reprimanded by SNP chiefs.

    Your point about the SNP getting too comfortable with the status quo, could be a valid on. If they don’t capitalise on the surge for independence, however we won’t really know the answer to that question until nearer the time post Brexit.

    I do hope that your speculation is skewed on the SNP, nevertheless you make a very reasonable assertion.

  337. Desimond says:

    I remember a disillusioned with Labour friend saying he had given up with voting. I duggested the SNP and he said “i will wait to see what they do when they have power”

    I think of that thought the more they concentrate on side issues and ignore the big push.
    Folk can save the “but by exercising a damn good devolved Parliament they will slowly win Independence replies as they wont.

    i opened Twitter today to see folk being lambasted for holding up a poster saying Tory Scum in Stirling. Seems its not polite and one claim said “We need all the Tories we can to win Independence!”..thats the Conservative and Unionist party supporters we shouldnt offend or be offended by..lets all live in a well cushioned room of a world

  338. Eckle Fechan says:

    As a regular reader (trawling comments for my sins too), but infrequent poster, I feel compelled to agree with Petra and others’ sentiments on this occasion.

    This one really feels a bit off-kilter and out of place. There are a number of noticeably odd first-person semantics (poor counterfeit?) and statements/conjecture in what feels like a blurring of boundaries between Wings World and Twitter Town. (Certainly the boundaries feel ever more blurred these days, esp. given the fixed presence of the Twitter feed to the RHS of the site – just remove it.)

    As Readers, entertaining ourselves hypothetically, is it perhaps too fanciful to suggest that either MI5 have breached the Bath stronghold, or your emotionally free and unburdened Twitter personality has crossed-over (no pun intended) into Wings World?

    Perhaps no more fanciful than the suggestions and conjecture outlined in the concluding paras of this piece. I’d look forward to fact-checking the sources, as re-emphasised with justified pride in your recent RT interview on The Eck Show, but there don’t seem to be any links here. (As an aside, in conversation with Eck, I could understand the obvious language comparisons with our biggest international cultural export – the Big Yin himself – but a more thoughtful and patriotic reference might have been James Kelman, “there is no such thing as bad language, only bad use of language.”).

    The long-grass GRA review is probably one crying out for the Citizen Assembly treatment, to get to a common sense consensual view that could inform policy from the ground up, but we now know the unlikelihood of that.

    Regardless the feelings and frustrations towards the top-down leadership, certain policy distractions, the seemingly stalled pace, the counter-intuitive decision making, the lack of a cohesive, joined-up, well-formed and articulated NextIndy strategy (that’s quite a list!), we have to hold tight and let it run its course, trusting in the leadership team to navigate through the murky waters with all the political, legal and constitutional hazards that lie in waiting, mine-buoys bobbing about but still visible on the surface if we look carefully enough.

    For what it’s worth, and it might not be much depending on your point of view or your patience with my diatribe outlined here, I’ve said it before and I’ll likely say it again (my opinion, my belief), Nicola Sturgeon is likely the most important woman in Scottish History since Mary Stuart over 400 years ago. The Establishment fear her just as much.

    To disrupt that effort at the present time wouldn’t be wise.

    Enough flowery language, I’ve said my piece. I hope others find it worthy, but you’re welcome to your own opinion, of course.

  339. kapelmeister says:

    Boris Johnson has told his fanzine the Daily Telegraph that he can “make Britain the greatest place on Earth”. All of Europe looks on and laughs.

  340. Luigi says:

    IMO the majority of SNP politicians are not really getting comfortable with the status quo.

    However, it does seem that a significant minority of SNP politicians are more passionate about other issues than they are about independence.

    Very strange.

    We really need to refocus – start this big fight for indy before we start eating ourselves.

    Bring it on – please. 🙂

  341. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “We were informed on here that trans people would get access to women / children’s shelters. That turned out to be untrue. So what are the other key areas of concern, in particular? Getting access to women’s toilets? Do we know if that is going to happen or not? Isn’t this whole issue still under review?”

    What on Earth gave you the idea that the first thing “turned out to be untrue”? It’s 100% true, as is the rest of it. People with GRCs can already do it – indeed, it’s illegal to even ask to see a person’s GRC. The only safeguard is the rules which currently gatekeep who can get GRCs, and the entire point of the “reforms” is to abolish those.

    If you’re going to shout ridiculous conspiracy-theory pish at people, maybe do your research first, like I do.

  342. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “When Wings over Scotland – the second most important weapon in the indy armoury – is used by Stu to further his own personal non-political beliefs”

    Anyone who thinks this is either “non-political” or “nothing to do with independence” is a fucking idiot. I’ve explained the connection half a dozen times, and if you’re too dim to understand it then I’d really rather you didn’t come here because I hate wasting my breath on the stupid. I can’t dumb it down any more.

  343. kapelmeister says:

    On the same day he’s due in Scotland for leadership hustings Jeremy Hunt tweets a pic of himself in Darlington railway station celebrating the imminence of HS2. Perhaps he’s going to mesmerise the Jocks with another can of Irn Bru.

  344. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Many people have been using mixed changing rooms for years In swimming pools and health clubs With family and friends. Male and female, young and old with absolutely no problems. Other people All the patrons use them. No problems.”

    Ken, you really need to stop repeating this utterly wrong, revoltingly complacent shite. Just because it’s never happened to YOU or anyone you know doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

    “The vast majority of reported sexual assaults at public swimming pools in the UK take place in unisex changing rooms, new statistics reveal.

    The data, obtained through a Freedom of Information request by the Sunday Times, suggests that unisex changing rooms are more dangerous for women and girls than single-sex facilities.

    Just under 90 per cent of complaints regarding changing room sexual assaults, voyeurism and harassment are about incidents in unisex facilities. What’s more, two thirds of all sexual attacks at leisure centres and public swimming pools take place in unisex changing rooms.

    Of 134 complaints over 2017-2018, 120 reported incidents took place in gender-neutral changing rooms and just 14 were in single-sex changing areas.”

    If the readers of this site are still honking clueless pish like this without making the tiniest effort to check their facts first, I really have been wasting my time for the last eight years.

  345. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Normally a big fan Stu, but I’m not with you on this one. The issue of Trans rights is clear. They deserve the right to live as they wish. The issue of how to ensure that without diminishing others right is hard. And politicians need to be able to discuss it. The tweets MB is reading are very bigoted, there are issues where safety over rides inclusivity such as prisons etc.. but pretending mixed gender changing rooms/toilets are a problem, when they have existed as long as I’ve been alive is just clutching at straws.”

    See the link above. They’re actually a pretty big problem, but because it doesn’t affect YOU you don’t give a shit about it.

  346. NK says:

    It’s all very well to say “independence first”. It’s always “independence first” or whatever (unisex at best, often male-centered) issue first. Once we achieve independence, we still need to live in some sort of country.

    If something along the lines of gender id is implemented in law, it will be nigh on impossible to roll that back in an independent Scotland. Independence as a nation is a political ideal, but it’s a rather lofty one. We can say, oh, we’ll have power over XYZ that’s currently a reserved matter, we won’t have governments dominated by parties chosen primarily through English votes. That has an impact, of course, but it’s a lot less immediate than the overarching impacts of no longer being able to reserve any places on the grounds of sex (leaving aside the matter that de facto gender ID already widely applies through organisations which refuse to use exemptions provided for in EA2010 and who claim – educated by certain lobbying orgs – that it is unlawful to separate by sex), no longer being able to classify anyone by sex but by some ephemeral internal identity, no rights or protections for lesbians and gays (since after all, a man who identifies as a woman is a lesbian too, and if you’re only interested in females, you’re an evil TERF who deserves to be threatened with violence).

    Some of you call this a replacement/distraction issue. Yes, perhaps on the side of the politicians who are bringing this up. The same is said for abortion matters in places where it’s in greater dispute than in Scotland. But it’s very real to the women who stand to be affected. It’s not a trifling matter.

    I would rather delay independence than risk the proposed gender legislation, even in the watered-down version recently proposed by SAS. I don’t think there is a need in law for the legal fiction of sex changes. I would like a repeal of the GRA (grandfather claused), but I’m aware of legal issues around that. At the very least let us have the hell we have now and not a hotter one.

  347. katherine hamilton says:

    The Rev posted his view on this late yesterday afternoon and many have posted their own. Can we now put a tin lid on it.
    If and when proposals are to be put at Holyrood re how the 2005 Act is to be implemented then those with strong opinions can engage with the political process at that time, to get their voice heard.
    We need to get back to basics. There are rumours of a poll with scary portents for the Union. T.May was here yestreen insulting us again. Tweedledum and Tweedledee are in town today.
    Stuff is happening and we on here need to discuss ideas for the next 100 or so days to Argameddon, aka 31st October.

    Here’s mine. Criticism of the SNP leadership’s approach at the moment is valid. (I’m a member) The FM can’t, just can’t, do it all, ie run the country and campaign nationwide in our towns and villages for independence. But I know someone who could. Step forward Joanna Cherry.
    She needs to go on a nationwide campaigning tour to create visibility. We know she’s feisty and will generate headlines. Local Yes groups could organise local platforms. Advertise it,get the literature prepared. Mr. Dunn’s stuff is the bees knees. Buy advertising in local papers, whatever it takes to get the word out that she’s coming and we’re ready.
    We undoubtedly need a focus between now and the end of October to help us cope with the impending sense of dread.

    Our weakness, is of course, who would organise it? Well step forward Elaine C smith’s mob. They’ve employed a co-ordinator I believe. What on earth are they co-ordinating? I see no ships.

    The strands need to be brought together. A plea to Joanna. Resign your seat and commit to this community focussed approach.
    Be our spokesperson on all TV programmes as our talking head. Mr. Brown is always saying we’re underepresented on panel discussions, but when we are it is too diffuse. We need to focus.

    I believe we are in the end game. We need a focus for the summer.
    All ideas are welcome.

  348. katherine hamilton says:

    Argameddon? Shoulda proof read!

  349. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “As much as I like this blog and have donated on several occasions, all of these posts about gender issues massively turn me off.”

    There have been about six, out of over 5,100. Calm down. If anything it’s nowhere near enough for how important this is in terms of independence.

    Some of you REALLY need to think a lot harder about the consequences for a Yes vote of SERIOUSLY pissing off over half the population of the country. You might think this is a trivial issue, but lots and lots of them don’t.

  350. Ottomanboi says:

    The only reason for the existence of the Scottish National party, a name Nicola Sturgeon seemingly does not like, is the restoration of Scotland’s lost dignity through the reclamation of independence and sovereignty.
    Joining the party to further social ‘sectarian’ and potentially divisive minority interests is not in the brief. The breakdown of political purpose and ‘ideological’ discipline has given too many idle fingers opportunities to make mischief.

  351. Robert Louis says:

    Whilst I agree with REV STU that the gender business is a mess, and an issue which is highly contentious, I do think that echoing others, we need to focus on independence. The gender stuff is madness, going against biological FACTS and denouncing lesbians – some of whom literally fought for the very rights which Black and her ilk nowadays have. The right to marry her partner, the right to be an OPENLY gay MP. Black needs to apologise, she really does.

    RevSTU has made his point on this subject. We get it. But, as others above point out, it has been shelved. Black behaved in a very stupid manner in that video, and should apologise. I might add, that she really needs to effing grow up, she is an MP, not a school girl. Hero to zero in one stupid film.

    However, I do think others on here are right to say, this site should be focussing on independence. We had May here yesterday, and the two English posh clowns who want to be Prime Minister up this week, talking patronising mince. That should be our focus, ripping them to shreds.

    Mind, I stand by what I said earlier, the SNP need to start fighting, instead of procrastinating on independence. Time is short. People are getting really frustrated, just hanging around, waiting. As the old mantra goes, you are either defending or attacking, and for the last four years the SNP have just been defending. That is why the Tories feel so enabled to attack devolution, and ignore Scotland on brexit and independence, because they see nothing happening. In Westminster’s eyes, talking about it, or complaining means nothing.

    Let others fight over gender. Our focus is independence (or at least it should be).

  352. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Let others fight over gender. Our focus is independence (or at least it should be).”

    Sigh. How can you not understand that talking about an issue which could cost HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of votes is focusing on independence?

  353. Cubby says:

    Perhaps this issue should be a subject for the new Citizen assembly.

  354. Proud Cybernat says:

    ScotGov in Supreme Court later this month over Continuity Bill decision. All seems very low profile. BUT – this could be the moment when we finally put sovereignty of Scots to the fore. forefront? This could be the legal test of the sovereignty of Scots many here have been arguing for.

    Fingers crossed.

  355. Bob Mack says:

    You are absolutely correct Stu. Women are pivotal to any success. Considering 20% of the female population in the entire UK has experienced sexual assault, you can understand why women have concerns about a level of protection being eroded. Women require assurances of safety whether us guys like it or not.

  356. Proud Cybernat says:

    “Sigh. How can you not understand that talking about an issue which could cost HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of votes is focusing on independence?”

    Rev – how do you propose ScotGov deals with this? Any ideas (other than booting it into the long grass)?

  357. Robert Louis says:


    I get it. I really, really do. I think the gender business is really f**ed up, I really do, and I say that as a gay (homogenderSEXUAL) person, who does not ‘buy into’ it.

    I agree with what you say, but where does your strength lie?

    Just a gentle suggestion. Not saying it shouldn’t be mentioned.

  358. Clydebuilt says:

    What’s the %age of changing rooms thst are unisex.
    If 90% of changing rooms are unisex / gender neutral then you’d expect 90% of attacks harrassment etc. to occur in them.

    I swim regularly, it’s hard to remember the last time I was in a single sex changing room

  359. dakk says:

    The minutae of politics such as this issue is not something the vast majority of people know or care much about.

    However it does have the capacity to cause much greater blow back to Indy at a more damaging time during indyref campaign.

    Stuart is probably right to address the issue now to help avoid any possible unnecessary radical decisions Scot gov may inadvertently sleepwalk into during any indyref campaign.

  360. Hamish100 says:

    Re refurb yards. UNITE and GMB supported the monies for Wind Turbine Investment in Hull (England) . The turbines head for Scotland thereafter.

    I am sure the Unions have advised their members of this. Remember the loss of fish processing jobs in the borders. Moved to England after grants provided there. Fish caught in Scottish waters. Certain fishing groups keep their mouths shut of course.

  361. Bob Mack says:


    Those figures have been posted further back on the thread.

  362. heraldnomore says:

    Well said @katherine hamilton, once again.

    Did I not read the other day that the Voices for Scotland co-ordinator appointed a couple of months has left/is leaving, and recruitment begins again? But that aside you’re bang on.

    And thankfully Stu’s got another post up, and a good one too.

  363. CameronB Brodie says:

    Armitage Shanks
    “honest debate is shut down and the liberal agenda continues.”

    Not only is your logic mince, it appears you are no fan of liberal society. So what flavour of authoritarianism do you favour then, left-wing or right-wing?

  364. Lenny Hartley says:

    Dave McEwan Hill @1137” it only becomes an issue when we start jumping up and down and shout about it” FFS Dave you have been in this game a very long time,I would have thought you would be more savvy. this gender issue has also been ongoing for some time, i dont recall seeing any SNP Civil War pish from the MSM , can you think why? It doesnt not take much thought to figure out why, its the only thing they have to stop Independence, they are keeping their tinder dry. Mairi Black needs to be reigned on and the SNP leadership needs to shut this down now.
    Anybody who cannot see that this issue could be spun by the MSM to the great detriment to Independence needs to open their eyes.

  365. Thepnr says:

    This isn’t just about the SNP, what do the leaders of the Labour, Green and Tory parties in Scotland think of this isssue. What is their view?

    This is what Richard leonard thinks on the issue of self ID.

    SCOTTISH Labour leader Richard Leonard has thrown his weight behind plans to simplify the process for people to change their gender.

    Leonard said he is broadly relaxed about the proposals for “self-identification”, which would scrap the requirement for individuals to obtain a medical diagnosis from a doctor.

    How about Patrick Harvie’s view?

    Maybe I can never fully understand trans people’s lives or what it means to come to terms with a different identity than the one assigned at birth. That doesn’t stop me being an ally for trans rights. In just the same way not being black or being a woman doesn’t stop me trying to be the best ally I can be for antiracism and for feminism.

    What about Ruthie then?

    Ms Davidson said the rights of transgender people was an area that still needed to be addressed.

    She said: “Those of us who are committed to equality need to be committed to trans rights too.

    “The level of debate around trans rights is lower than it should be and its lower than people deserve.”

    The Tory leader welcomed a Scottish Government consultation on reviewing and reforming the Gender Recognition Act, and said she had received assurances from the UK Government that it would bring forward a consultation this summer.

    All of the above looks pretty much like Nicola Sturgeons view as well, maybe all the parties should be punished at the ballot box. Lets all vote for Willie Rennie instead who appears to have very little to say on the subject, can’t say I’m surprised at that.

  366. ScotsRenewables says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
    5 July, 2019 at 12:56 pm
    “Let others fight over gender. Our focus is independence (or at least it should be).”

    Sigh. How can you not understand that talking about an issue which could cost HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of votes is focusing on independence?

    To be fair, atm it is only being discussed on ehre. I don;t think it is going ot percolate into the consciousness of the average veter.

    Unless you think the MSM are going to jump all over it sooner or later as an SNPVERYBaaaaaaaaaaad thing.

    Oh shit. Never mind., I for one am pleased ot see there is a new article puching this one down the page. Off to read it now.

  367. CameronB Brodie says:

    For all those who don’t have a problem with the proposed change to the GRA, your lack of concern is not important. The safety of women is the priority. Their concerns over discrimination are valid.

  368. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    You’ve got to laugh at this concern for what might put hundreds of thousands of voters off, when there wasn’t a peep from you when Sturgeon decided to devote a perplexing amount of completely unnecessary rhetoric to encouraging mass immigration and shaming those who might not be so keen, at a point where it couldn’t have possibly been more off-putting – and was the primary reason for their loss of seats in the election.

    This needs to stop.

  369. CameronB Brodie says:

    Reluctant Nationalist
    You just can’t get over your cultural chauvinism, eh?

  370. Scozzie says:

    For those questioning Stu on his defense of women’s rights. Ask yourself what’s in it for him – nothing. He has the foresight to see this is detrimental to the wider independence movement – it will affect female votes pure and simple!

    Yes there’s a section of the young woke population who perhaps can’t see the wider implications; but the majority of females once this blows wide open will not be prepared to stand back and see their female rights be eroded by self ID – i.e men who self ID as women wanting full and unfettered access to women’s sex-segregated spaces.

    People need to wake up and see what is being done in the name of self ID (which is not even yet in law). There is a push to normalise gender theory over biology. Ludicrous calls of transphobia is silencing Academia, teaching in schools is dismissing biology over gender theory, etc. Not least the gender theory ‘training’ in police, prisons, refuges and workplaces.

    This is not just about toilets and changing rooms as some on here seem to think. People cannot change sex! For those that have gender dysphoria help should be available but self ID is certainly NOT the answer.

  371. Clydebuilt says:


    haven’t the SNP leadership acknowledged this and kicked it into the long grass?

  372. Chris Foster says:

    sassenach says:
    4 July, 2019 at 8:25 pm
    “Sick to death with all this – if I never hear the word ‘trans’ again, it will be too soon!
    I can’t even look at the Wings twitter now, and the blog is heading the same way – I just want Indy – is that too much to ask?

    I couldn’t be more in agreement.

  373. Thepnr says:


    Why is it being defined as an SNP issue when the leaders of all the other parties in Scotland share the same view on it as Nicola Sturgeon does.

    Why should it cost the SNP and Independence votes but not any of the other parties? That’s why you hear nothing about yet in the media, there is little difference between the parties in Scotland.

    By making it an SNP only issue then there’s every chance that it will cost the SNP and Independence votes. It’s an issue for the Scottish parliament and ALL interested parties, pro trans rights groups, women’s rights groups, equality groups etc. ect. ect.

    Seems a good idea then to have further consultation on the proposed changes to a UK act before taking any decision. That decision will be made by parliament and not by any one party.

    See when we get our Independence…

  374. CameronB Brodie says:

    Perhaps, but the boil still needs lancing, IMHO. We need to establish who ordered the civil service to drop best practice, when designing the consultation exercise. This was a conscious decision to spike the consultation and could happen again.

  375. Thepnr says:

    @CameronB Brodie

    “We need to establish who ordered the civil service to drop best practice, when designing the consultation exercise.”

    Any chance of a link as to where it has been established that somebody “ordered the civil service to drop best practice”.

    The important point here is that “somebody ordered” and then the civil service complied. Be nice to see some evidence of that.

  376. Charlie says:

    For everyone chiding Stu for posting about this, who state that we ought not to bother with this subject, not to allow ourselves to be divided over it, and that independence comes first, all else later:

    Women are the demographic that the SNP needs to convince to support independence. Far fewer women do than men. But far more women than men do the gruntwork in local constituencies – the leafletting, going from house to house, envelope stuffing, staffing information booths and stalls, organising events and so on.

    In light of this and the fact, established in poll after poll, that only a small minority of women support GRA reform, the SNP’s erstwhile determination to push it through is an act of self-harm.

    Worse still, with more and more women waking up to the issue – many, like me, through encountering the very situations that Ken500 has spent so many comments here denying – there is now widespread concern that the SNP simply does not care about the rights and the safety of women and girls.

    After a lifetime of staying away from politics, I’ve now been actively and publicly campaigning to uphold the sex-based rights of women for 17 months. I’m involved in and have contacts with many of the new Scottish women’s rights groups that have been founded in the last few years around this issue.

    And the prospect of our government pursuing a course of action that will result in allowing males in particular to change their legal sex and thereby gain the rights and protections of the opposite sex by self-identification without any safeguarding or gatekeeping is motivating many more women like me to take action.

    But far more worrying for the SNP and the independence movement as a whole is the fact that during these 17 months I have met countless women who have been ardent independence campaigners who have nonetheless decided that losing their sex-based rights is a more existential threat to them and all of the women and girls to follow us. They are now prioritising the fight to uphold our rights over the fight to gain independence. Spending their time, effort and energy on running these groups, organising and campaigning for our rights against an SNP government they have hitherto supported.

    We were in the debating chamber watching Shirley-Anne Somerville announce that the SNP has finally decided that asking women what they think of losing their rights might be a prudent course of action to take in this. And afterwards one such seasoned campaigner pointed out that in the UK females are actually protected via the Equality Act. And there is neither guarantee nor even a commitment from the SNP that an independent Scotland will replicate the Equality Act and especially the exemptions that protect all single-sex set asides for women and girls.

    We are protected on the basis of our sex because that is the root of our oppression. Our biology. Not lipstick, frocks and high heels. We’re already seeing the negative impact that adopting self-id by stealth is having on women and girls. A government that seeks to enshrine this in law is no friend to us.

    And because an independent Scotland where women’s rights are de facto non-existent is no good to women, these independence campaigners are now in opposition to the SNP. The delay of GRA reform shows that the leadership is starting to wake up to this. But at the moment none of us trust them to pay more than lip service to supporting women. And Mhairi’s video and the SNP retweeting it in support seems to prove us right.

  377. Terry callachan says:

    To Scozzie

    I doubt there are many people on here that do not want to defend women’s rights
    I personally want to defend women’s rights

    The question is how do you defend women’s rights and defend the rights of people who wish to transgender ?
    Or do you think the rights of people who wish to transgender should be withheld ?

    Do you think a person who transgenders will take away women’s rights ?
    If you do , do you think all people who transgender are taking away women’s rights or just some ?

    If ALL , what evidence do you have to support that view ?

    If SOME , do you propose that the majority who transgender without putting women’s rights at risk should be refused transgender because some who transgender will offend ?

    It’s not so long ago we were all told by the church no less that people could be taught to be gay
    It’s not that long ago that we were told that people had a choice about their sexuality that they they were only gay because they had chosen to be gay
    We have living serving politicians who felt so threatened and frightened to say they were gay that they hid it ,got married to someone of the opposite sex and had children with them.
    Why ?
    Because it’s not that long ago that in the UK you would be beaten up in the streets , inprisoned and lose your job if you were found to be gay

    I’m no expert but I don’t like the way wings over Scotland makes out that transgender people are a risk to women’s rights , perhaps some are ?
    Nobody says how many
    Some people on here talk as if they are all a risk to women’s rights
    That is just not possible

    Leave this to the experts
    The experts are health professionals , psychologists , people with experience and qualifications in the subject
    I’m pretty sure wingsoverscotland has none and is only giving an opinion
    Do we really want to put trust in another persons opinion of such a complex thing ?
    Really ?

  378. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’m pants at trawling through threads, everything becomes a blur, and I’ve still not sorted out new glasses. Capella posted a link on the “War on Women” thread. I can’t remember which one, but one of Scotland’s new women’s groups got the info through a Freedom of Information inquiry.

    I’m an ethical rationalist so I tend to avoid bullshit. I have nothing to gain by resisting self-ID, other than securing inclusive, liberal, democracy.

  379. Scozzie says:

    Threpnr @ 2.3pm
    You’re right, all parties are in agreement of reform of the GRA – but that doesn’t make it a ‘good’ change in legislation.

    However, I don’t see the opposition parties forcing the hand of the government to push through this reform legislation, it’s coming from within the SNP itself. And for that matter Nicola Sturgeon is on record of saying women’s concerns are ‘misplaced’. So it seems that reforms of the GRA are supported from the leadership.

    It will cost the SNP votes for the simple reason they are the ones in government and able to change legislation on this (with support of greens who are happy with GRA reform). The fact the other parties are also on record of supporting change is immaterial as they’re not in a position to enact a change in legislation. And why do you think they’re not vocal on it even though they support it – letting SNP fall on their own sword!

    I agree it should be debated, but only after independence – for now it’s a major distraction and one that the SNP should drop like a hot stone.

  380. Jane says:

    Don’t dismiss how strongly many women feel about this issue. I will never forgive the SNP or vote for them again if they take us down the route the US and Canada have went on inclusion and gender identity

  381. Lenny Hartley says:

    Terry Callachan FFS wake up, its not about Trans Rights, its about the perception that Women will have of the SNP and Independence once the MSM go to town with headlines like “SNP plan to allow Paedophiles into Girls toilets in an Independent Scotland” or SNP Plot to allow Male Perverts access to Woman Only Spaces such as Toilets and Refuge’s”
    In case anybody is hard of understanding Self ID means that any Male , Transgender or not can Self Identify as Female and gain access to Female only spaces.

  382. Thepnr says:


    If the SNP lose votes over this issue and concerned women vote for another party won’t we just be in exactly the same position at sometime in the future?

    Clearly it is an issue that requires a solution, that solution should be decided upon after hearing out all interested parties. As far as I know that is what has been planned and that there will be further consultation.

    Changing the party in power doesn’t look like it would change the outcome as the leaders of Labour the Tories and the Greens clearly support self ID. That doesn’t mean all MP’s in their parties do, just as all those in the SNP have differing views. Some are for and some against.

    Pinning this on Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP solely is a mistake. It is NOT a party political issue it is a Scotland wide issue that has the support it seems of at least 4 of the party leaders in Scotland. By pinning on to the SNP because they are the current government you are singling them out. That in my view is a mistake and could cost votes.

    Their decision brought about for further consultation is the right one, lets have the consultation, hear ALL the voices and then make a decision. One way or another it will have to be resolved, conflating it with Independence is a mistake.

    It is one single issue, Independence which brings the power to independently make decisions on every issue affecting Scotland is a much bigger deal. Don’t be diverted.

  383. Derick fae Yell says:

    Point 1

    This issue has exploded all across the Western world because it has been heavily promoted by cynical people and biomendical/pharmacutical corporations who are going to make a lot of money out of it.

  384. Derick fae Yell says:

    Point 2

    Stonewall are one of the advisers to the Scottish Government on the self ID proposals. This article details how evidence given was ignored as it didn’t fit with the agenda

    Between 2 & 3 women a week are killed by a current or past male partner. Many many times that are abused, beaten, raped and have their personalities destroyed by abusive men.

    The point of women only spaces in refuge is to give those who do seek help space and some peace. Women for whom the sound of a male voice, never mind a male body, in that space is deeply traumatic. Doesn’t matter how nice that man is, or what gender they identify as.

    If we are to insist, legally insist, that men, however they self define gender-wise, have the right to come in to women’s refuges, fewer women will seek help. The inevitable conclusion is that more people will die, or be psychologically destroyed.

    PLEASE listen to these women

  385. Derick fae Yell says:

    Point 3

    Stuart is right that if we alienate 51% of the population we can forget independence in our lifetimes

    Shirley-Anne Somerville’s statement in the Parliament was most welcome. This issue has been a classic example of policy capture by an organized lobby group taking advantage of well meaning but naive politicians. They’ve been found out and now they are howling.

    This needs a respectful, evidence based, debate. And less of the vicious misogyny, threats, violence and general nastiness which has characterized it to date

  386. Scozzie says:

    Terry Callachan @ 2.52pm
    Why are you conflating homosexuality with transgenderism? I have absolutely no problem with people who have same sex attraction. What I’m saying is that people cannot change sex biologically – it’s impossible.

    I stated that transexxuals have protected rights and I believe they should do – they have fully transitioned to what is possible with medical intervention (even though they are still biologically male).

    However, I don’t believe that anyone who self IDs should have women’s right to protected spaces – self ID will open up our protected spaces to anyone who chooses to say they are a ‘woman’ without the need to transition – simply declaring themselves as a woman. In many cases that means a fully intact biological male who simply ‘identifies’ as female. Is our biological sex now reduced to simply a feeling in a man’s head? Is that what the law should be defined as?

  387. Terry callachan says:

    Lenny Hartley…wrong wrong wrong

    Read the Scottish government reports it’s on their website.
    It’s a consultation done properly

    All party,s in favour of change
    Nothing has been decided yet

    Banning self ID because people who shout about it usually with little more knowledge of it than what they have read on wingsoverscotland will be wrong.

    Let the health experts decide , that’s what Scottish govt want to do

    Lenny go away and read about it read the consultation reports on the Scottish govt website and stop being silly

  388. Pete says:

    Organisations in power give far too much attention and credence to minority groups to the detriment of the majority who believe in mum, dad and the bairns.
    If you look at the BBC, gays, lesbians, blacks and Asians are greatly over represented.
    Time to get back to normality.

  389. Terry callachan says:

    Scozzie…don’t be stupid
    Go and read the the consultation reports on the Scottish govt website gain some knowledge of the subject before you blather crap online.
    Nobody anywhere is going to allow people to just say I’m no longer a man I’m woman I’m coming into women’s toilets or changing rooms
    There is a process and it’s a strict process
    Learn about it before you talk nonsense

  390. CameronB Brodie says:

    Terry callachan
    The first question in the consultation conflates sex with gender. As such, the consultation was worse than worthless. It was discriminatory against biological women.

  391. Scozzie says:

    Thank you CameronB Brodie at 4.18pm.
    Terry Callachan – the consultation questions were flawed and the wording was influenced by the trans lobby.

    Terry Callachan at 4.14pm what is your understanding of what self ID means?

  392. Charlie says:

    Terry callachan If by “consultation report” you mean the Scottish Government’s previous consultation on GRA reform, it was flawed and unacceptably biased. It framed the entire issue as of no interest to anyone but trans-identifying people. It purposefully conflated sex and gender (as a number of FOIs revealed, ScotGov was lobbied to do so by trans rights organisations). The questions pre-supposed a belief in gender ideology in respondents and questions were phrased accordingly. Like many, I found the language used dense and incomprehensible. Supporting documentation was full of errors, assumptions and misrepresentations.

    Unlike other “public” consultations, it was not publicised, discussion was not facilitated and those who dared to organise the few public meetings trying to discuss what reform might mean for women were harassed, threatened and intimidated by trans rights activists. The meeting I attended in Edinburgh had men wearing balaclavas outside screaming “fascists” and other epithets in our faces with the police (who were refusing to rein in these aggressive protesters) recommending that the women attending should “leave in groups for our own safety”.

    It’s actually what convinced me and many other women there that we needed to take action. The Scottish Government had clearly abandoned us when women as a group were prevented from taking part in a supposedly public, political process concerning a change in the law and no politician cared about the threats and harassment we received.

    We’ve come far in the 17 months since then. We have convinced many of our MSPs that such a view is profoundly undemocratic and we have made our voices heard. As a consequence, there are many more new women’s rights groups now active on the issue.

    And since most people do not actually know, here are the facts:

    Trans-identifying people have equal rights in law in Scotland. Unlike other vulnerable groups, they are protected by not one, but two Acts of Parliament – the Equality Act and the Gender Recognition Act.

    If you know otherwise, I would like to ask you to state which legal rights trans people lack that others have here in the UK.

    GRA reform is actually about granting a privilege to trans-identifying people that others do not have – to gain access to the rights and protections of a group with a protected characteristic without meeting the requirements of membership of that group and without any proof of needing that protection.

    It is a lie that the current process is demeaning, complicated, expensive or dehumanising.

    95% of all applications are successful. An unsuccessful applicant can reapply after a waiting period of just six months. And there are civil servants whose job it is to support applicants – for free.

    It is far more difficult to go through a visa process or citizenship application (which cost many thousands of pounds, not just a few hundred and unlike with the GRA there are NO waivers for those on low incomes), it is far more dehumanising and difficult to apply for disability benefits – no civil servants are tasked with helping disabled people get their benefits.

    Whenever we wish to obtain any kind of legal or social benefits – driving licence, passport, mortgage, maternity leave etc – we need to provide evidence of meeting requirements. Applications under the GRA are not unique in that regard.

    As for bringing Scotland in line with “best international practice” on gender recognition – we already are.

    Out of the few countries in the world (22 out of 195) that allow a change in their citizen’s legal sex status, Scotland is one of the very few countries in the world where this does not involve a requirement to have any medical treatment at all (let alone full sterilisation, which is the norm).

    All you need here is a medical diagnosis of having gender dysphoria supported by two health care professionals (usually a diagnosis from a GP or gender dysphoria specialist supported by a report from a psychiatrist/psychologist), a name change and proof of “living as the desired gender” which does NOT as others have claimed include the requirement of using single-sex spaces (from which such individuals are rightfully EXCLUDED IN LAW).

    In actual fact, as far as the Scottish Government is concerned, “living as the opposite gender” means using an opposite-sex name (cf the text of the law on 50/50 representation on company boards). That’s it.

    The European Court of Human Rights ruled in 2017 that it does NOT violate the human rights of those who identify as trans to have to provide a medical diagnosis of suffering from gender dysphoria before being allowed to change their legal status to that of the other sex. So Scotland is fully in line with international best practice right now.

    Ergo, what the SNP is doing is throwing away the votes of women – and many men, actually – over pursuing a course of action that is neither necessary nor justifiable. And for what?

  393. Scozzie says:

    Charlie at 5.30pm
    Your post should be pinned at the top of every discussion on the GRA to help educate people. Thank you for your insightful knowledge on this matter.

  394. Thepnr says:

    If anyone required further evidence that the self ID issue is NOT solely the responsibility of the SNP to resolve and in fact many prominenet in the SNP are against it.

    Here’s potentially the next leader of the Lib Dems, Jo Swinson just today giving her tuppence worth:

    Despite initial moves towards progressing on self-identification, the Government has floundered – scared by pressure groups and the media.

    As a cis woman, I can’t pretend to understand the experience of questioning one’s own identity, nor do I face the same potential risks or dangers when I speak up about these issues. But that doesn’t take away my passionate belief that trans rights are human rights. I’m a feminist, and I hate hearing that I’m not allowed to believe both in women’s rights and the rights of trans women. Trans women ARE women.

    The Liberal Democrats must continue to lead the campaign for self-identification. As Leader, I would champion trans, non-binary, genderfluid, and self-defined gender identities – making clear that there is no equality or liberty without defending the rights of everyone.

    Trans people should be able to legally change their gender without the current medicalised hoops to jump through; their own experience should be enough.

    We must also ban the use of all forms of conversion therapy and make it clear that an individual’s right to self-identification is paramount. No-one should be forced to live a lie or change how they think or feel just to fit in with the narrow world view of those around them.

    As Leader of the Liberal Democrats, I promise to lead us in campaigning at every opportunity in making sure no-one faces discrimination, prejudice or disadvantage because of their sexuality or gender identity. We have always been the leading party in the fight against discrimination and I will make sure we continue to be so.

    It seems pretty clear to me at least that despite the political party you belong or voted for, or how you voted on Independence it means little on this issue. The leaders of our political parties speak pretty much with one voice.

    There are concerns and totally legitimate concerns that must be addressed, only by discussion between all parties can these concerns by identified fully and solutions found. That is what the SNP have wisely in my opinion decided to do.

    It is now clear that ALL the major parties in Scotland have some level of support for self ID and it is NOT the preserve of the SNP. This is a Scottish issue that needs a Scottish solution, that should be possible.

  395. Terry callachan says:

    To CameronB Brodie..I expected better from you really,

    Scozzie, read it

    Furthermore remember this, it’s a Scottish government consultation
    Not an SNP consultation
    Not a Nicola Sturgeon consultation

    Refusing to take part in it would be more damaging to the SNP than actually agreeing to take part

  396. Terry callachan says:

    The discussion in Westminster of transgender Act review

  397. kelpie85 says:

    I don’t understand those blaming Wings for publishing this article when it was Mhairi Black who made the video and tweeted link. The official SNP twitter account retweeted making sure it reached as large an audience as possible. Do people really want to bury their heads in the sand and not know what politicians (even the SNP) are doing until it is too late? Its not Wings that tried to sneak the legislation through, it was the Scottish Government. You are shooting the messenger here.
    With regards to the GRA legislation, the Scottish Government appear to have tried to pass it as quietly as possible – why did nobody know it was about to happen? The SG realised the at the Woman’s groups opposition was not going to go away and set about on damage limitation. The Woman’s Groups accepted the change of plan and agreed to take part in a new consultation. The Scottish Government also conceeded that an EA Imapct Assessment should take place. Mhairi Black has undermined the damage limitation carried out by SA Somerville with this ill advised video and the SNP published it. As a result, doubt must be cast on the sincerity of the reopening of consultation and the neglected impact assessment. This sad state of affairs can’t be seen as Westminster causing trouble as all the action seems to be internally within SNP circles.
    You may argue that independence trumps everything else, but bad legislation now is not a good foundation for a newly emerging nation. Also, if you thing Wings should be concentrating on independence it appears some in the SNP aren’t.
    Finally, before I go back to lurking (and occasionally thinking) some people are saying Wings should not have highlighted it because the MSM have not commented. I think we can be sure they would not have missed it – maybe biding their time?

  398. AyrshireScot says:

    The idea that any SNP MP cannot have individual views on specific issues not related to independence and campaign for those, vigorously, and that these cannot be separated from his/ her view on independence is silly.

    The idea that any SNP MP cannot express any opinion contrary to perceived public mood in Scotland is silly.

    Margo campaigned within and outwith the SNP for policies the public was far from accepting – these have gained traction and “acceptability” – or rather the force of argument, evidence have stacked up. Some SNP MPs defied party policy to pander to a clear majority view at that time – SNP MP and Deputy Leader Jim Sillars voted against gay rights consistently in Westminster.

    To argue that SNP MPs must reflect a perceived majority view in Scotland on any issue, especially controversial, difficult issues, is silly – extend that view and the SNP would just be a campaign group for devolution, following perceived majority view of electorate. In August 2014 a majority of Scots opposed independence. A majority of Scots back UK nuclear weapons….

    The point of independence is that it will give all Scots the power, for first time, to make all these choices. Is silly to divert such attention to attacking each other in this way. Silly for an Independence website to divert itself and us also

  399. CameronB Brodie says:

    Terry callachan
    I was getting my reports mixed up and I can’t find the one I’m thinking of right now. However, it is irrefutable that the consultation conflated sex with gender-ID. The civil service had to be ordered not to follow a gender-critical approach to the consultation. That should ring alarm-bells.

    You appear to be supporting discrimination against against biological women and anti-social legislation. Can I ask why?

  400. CameronB Brodie says:

    Terry callachan
    Apparently it was the Equality Network who lobbied the Scottish government to conflate sex with gender.

  401. Al-Stuart says:

    PLEASE can this trans issue be put in perspective? It is out of balance and if this thread demonstrates anything it is distressing many people, including significant numbers: 51% of the population.

    The solution is simple. Pass a law similar to the Equality Act 2010 that requires FOUR bogs to be included in newbuilds and an EXTRA WC for transgender retro-fitted in old buildings.


    Or wave goodbye to Scottish Independence.

    Stuart I know you dedicated to this issue but please focus that fine mind of yours on the damage being done here.

    I am disabled and when it is bad I do use a disabled loo. Perfectly satisfactory solution. No drama. Surely a fourth WC room requirement enshrined in GRA reform should sate matters and let us get back to winning Indy for Scotland.

  402. SilverDarling says:

    @Terry callachan

    Most the parties had manifesto commitments to review the GRA but they did not say how they would do it.Just because they are falling over themselves to be part of this nonsense conflating sex and gender does not make it right. What has become clear as time goes on is that pressure groups working on Trans rights have inveigled themselves into the workings of government, both UK and Scottish.

    As others have made clear the original review for the SG was a stitch up behind closed doors with flawed questions negating the entire process. When it became obvious even to the SG that this was the case they had to start again, undertaking the impact studies they had failed to do in the original rushed review.

    Here is just one Women’s Group speaking about the review:

    The estimable Lucy Hunter-Blackburn, amongst others has also criticized the review. Here is just one aspect of the conflation of sex and gender she has written about:

    The entire premise on which these reviews have been based is flawed precisely because Stonewall, TIE etc and all the Trans Activist bodies have sought to conflate and muddy the definitions of gender and biological sex. Until that is addressed none of the ‘official’ reviews are worth tuppence. Even today the UK committee looking at this stuff sought to classify DSD as ‘hermaphrodites’ an antiquated term with no validity.

    They haven’t a clue what they are talking about.

    Now as none of these articles I have referenced are government sanctioned and don’t have the stamp of approval of SG or UK gov you can dismiss them as without authority but it is precisely because women’s groups were denied a voice in these government reviews that the argument has blown up.

    The people most affected by the proposed changes put forward by Trans Activists are NATAL women. Until our voices are taken account of the protests will continue.

    We expect more of the Scottish Government than the piss poor review they have delivered so far.

  403. CameronB Brodie says:

    Terry callachan
    From one of the links you provided. Sex is determined through biology, it is not an emotional state. Allowing self-ID changes the legal definition of sex, through the woke back door. As such, self-ID would consolidate and strengthen misogyny and sexist stereotypes.

    Review of the Gender Recognition Act 2004: consultation analysis

    10. Other issues raised included that the consultation paper fails to distinguish between sex and gender. It was argued that, determined by an individual’s sex chromosomes, biological sex cannot be changed, irrespective of surgery or other medical treatments. In contrast, gender was suggested to be a social construct – comprising a set of characteristics or behaviours that society has come to view as masculine or feminine. Some respondents thought that, rather than reinforcing these concepts, effort should instead be put into eradicating gender stereotypes altogether.

  404. SilverDarling says:

    Here is an analogy that might make it clearer: Brexit is happening despite most of voting otherwise. The two Tory candidates will be in charge of it, both say they will involve the Scottish Tories, the DUP and ERG in the process. They won’t involve the Scottish Government or Scotland in any shape or form.

    Now replace Brexit for the GRA; the Tories, DUP and ERG for Stonewall, TIE etc and finally Scotland and the SG as Natal women.

    Can you still not see why we are pissed off?

  405. Gary says:

    I’m glad you decided to post the video and DO hope that all who read the article actually WATCHED the video too!

    The video is certainly NOT how you characterise it. She is not sneering nor smirking but she takes the issue seriously. I am not in a position to be able to know whether Mhairi’s figures are correct or whether yours are. I simply don’t know. But, in the scheme of things ie this article that point isn’t the MAIN point.

    This article follows on from a fairly recent one, also about trans matters where you are HIGHLY critical of those who wish to protect trans men or women from abuse by making the case for ‘trans rights’ etc

    It is entirely possible that Mhairi has made some errors in her video, no one’s perfect but you seem to have a reall bee in your bonnet about trans rights, womens’ rights etc. YOU have the probem, not Mhairi. I disagreed strongly with your previous article and I disagree with this one.

    Why are you SO angry at this?? You had to go for a long walk before writing the article to calm down? That is a worry, genuinely. Even if she’s made factual errors it DOESN’T merit you writing an article about it.

    In what way would this help your appeal in the Dugdale Case? It’s like you want to prove her right somehow?

    But then, to top it all, you tack ona piece at the end of the article criticising the SNP for getting too comfortable. You have every right to say that if you wish but exactly how is it relevant to your anger at Mhairi’s views on trans rights?? You have diverged into something not relevant (it’s your blog, do what you want obv) but it DOES make it look like a rant, a transphobic rant.

    If the SNP are getting too comfortable in power and getting their short money maybe you are over comfortable with people agreeing with you. It’s easy to agree when you talk about Scottish political matters but the growing opinion, in most parts of the world, is AWAY from transphobia and towards giving more equal rights to those people in particular and in more general terms giving rights so that ALL of us can live our live free of discrimination…

  406. Paul Wilson says:

    What a waste of a post in what way is this helping us get independence?

  407. CameronB Brodie says:

    Self-ID would change the meaning of sex, from indicating bio-physiological difference between men and women, to representing what it feels like to be male or female. Such a constructavist interpretation of sex, is meaningless and undermines the potential for rational government.

    Sex, Gender, and Epistemology


    It has been argued by Buss (1975) and others that psychology as a discipline tends to alternate between two basic paradigms explaining the relationship between humans and their environment. These two basic conceptual paradigms are: (1) reality constructs the person, and (2) the person constructs reality. Paradigm (1) postulates a model of a reality that is stable, irreversible, and deterministic.

    It further postulates that this reality is discoverable through the proper application of scientific methodology and that individual differences are a result of the impingement of that reality on the developing organism. This deep structure underlies such diverse schools of thought as behaviorism, psychoanalysis, and sociobiology. These theoretical frameworks do not question that reality exists. They differ merely on the aspects of reality they stress as having the most impact on individual behavior.

    Social Reality, Social Constructionist, Physical Attractiveness, Experimental Social Psychology, Feminist Scholar

  408. CameronB Brodie says:

    You admit you don’t know about this subject yet suggest the Rev. has a problem with trans-rights. Sure you’re not letting your emotions control your potential for critical reasoning?

  409. CameronB Brodie says:

    Paul Wilson
    In what way is this a waste of a post? Are women’s rights and social justice not important to you?

  410. asklair says:

    “Ian Mackay says:
    4 July, 2019 at 8:41 pm

    Everyone has rights. Animals have rights.”

    Very interesting how this was put, will be referring back to this.

  411. Col.Blimp IV says:


    Holy Shit “CIS”? … I had to look it up – bladder emptied involuntarily and gut well and truly busted!

    I totally agree with you that this is not a party political issue … I see it as more of a a ludicrously PC issue i.e. humoring all manner of weirdos because they have hitched a ride on the gay rights bandwagon (though I suspect that this lot are stowaways).

    There is no doubt that sexually non-conformist people have been and are currently discriminated against in various ways, to different degrees all across the world since time began.

    Their pain is no less but no greater than others who suffer the same rejection and ridicule from their peers, because of deformity, disability, religion, race and a hundred and one other reasons, including petty jealousy and for just being a tad un-cool.

    There should be laws and conventions to prevent the physical and/or psychological harm of others for ANY reason, not half-arsed ones tailored to meet the needs of whichever special interest group is currently in vogue.

    Call me a dinosaur if you like but I find it impossible to differentiate between sex and gender. A male who stays at home to look after the children while his female partner goes out to work is NOT performing the female gender role – he is just doing HIS bit as part of a team.

    A male who wears woman’s make up and a dress, shaves his arms, legs and chest and tries to sound like a woman, has not gender-shifted … he is a MAN in drag.

    A female who has what was once refereed to in jest as a tyadicktomy operation, does not become a Male, just a hormone pill popping, surgically modified version of herself.

    Just because the fantasies of Mary Shelly and H.G. Wells can almost be realized by modern surgery does not validate the work of our contemporary real-life Dr Moreaus and Barron Frankensteins in humouring the delusional to line their own pockets.

    If your children were to self-identify as Mermaids or Centaurs, would you believe that they were born into the wrong bodies and treat them as if they actually were mythical creatures?

    Or would you have their physical appearance surgically altered to match their fantasy?

    My point being were are what we are, if we believe otherwise we are deluding ourselves. Gender re-designation by attestation or the knife is not a THING … It is a fantasy.

  412. Vic says:

    No I do not consider myself to be a misogynist do you consider yourself to be a bigot?

    Your false equivalence selective data about complaints needs more qualification. For instance are gender neutral changing rooms equal in number to single sex ones?

  413. CameronB Brodie says:

    re. the the dodgy consultation and how it conflated sex and gender. Who determined it would use a constructivist definition of sex? Btw, is it not obvious that the human rights of women are being disregarded in a similar way to those of Scotland’s residents (see the full-English Brexit).


    When groups of people are represented in classification systems, potential exists for them to be structurally or linguistically subordinated, erased or otherwise misrepresented (Olson & Schlegl, 2001). As Bowker & Star (1999) have shown, the real-world application of classification to people can have legal, economic, medical, social, and educational consequences.

    The purpose of this research is to contribute to knowledge organization by showing how the epistemological stance underlying specific classificatory discourses interactively participates in the formation of concepts. The medical and legal discourses in three timeframes are examined using Foucauldian genealogical discourse analysis to investigate how their depictions of gender and epistemic foundations correspond and interplay with conceptualizations of similar concepts in four editions of the Dewey Decimal Classification.

    As knowledge organization research seeks solutions to manage the paradigm change from assumptions of universal knowledge to instability of knowledge, recognition of epistemological underpinnings of classification systems is necessary to understand the very real consequences of corresponding classifications of gender.

  414. CameronB Brodie says:

    No I consider myself a bit of an ethical rationalist though. Do you believe it possible to change sex?

  415. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “The point of independence is that it will give all Scots the power, for first time, to make all these choices. Is silly to divert such attention to attacking each other in this way.”

    We have the power to make these choices now. Self-ID could be implemented tomorrow if the Scottish Government so chose. Making the wrong choice could easily cost us that independence by alienating a crucial number of voters. Could people at least TRY to think it through and understand the point?

  416. Al-Stuart says:

    Crikey Stuart,

    That is a very welcome single paragraph that really helps to clarify why you appear so vexed.

    Also, for many, myself included, the complex nuanced nature of this issue can become numbed when every day life away from WoS website is factored in. Some busy work days I have just 10 to 15 minutes to read Wings (and BTL comments).

    This trans/womens-rights/ScotGov subject has me stymied, upset, confused and genuinely worried about losing IndyRef2.

    For brevity and clarity, I would recommend everyone visiting Wings Over Scotland reads Revs penultimate paragraph THREE times. It helped me see what Stu., is trying so hard to convey.

    Maybe it will assist others…

    Rev Stu writes… “We have the power to make these choices now. Self-ID could be implemented tomorrow if the Scottish Government so chose. Making the wrong choice could easily cost us that independence by alienating a crucial number of voters. Could people at least TRY to think it through and understand the point?”

  417. Charlie says:

    Vic While only half of the changing rooms in question were mixed-sex, nonetheless 90% of all reported incidents happened in them. A female’s risk of being harassed or assaulted was therefore much increased in a mixed-sex environment. And if you remember why we have single-sex facilities to begin with, that is not surprising – they were introduced to allow women and girls to participate in public life in safety.

    And what you also need to consider is that women typically do not report incidents at all, neither to staff nor to the police (so much so that more than 80% of serious sexual assaults and rapes go unreported).

    As an example:

    My local swimming pool was replaced with a new building that did away with our single-sex showers and changing rooms and replaced them with mixed-sex facilities that had cubicles open at the top and bottom, arranged in a number of short, angled and not very bright aisles.

    I spent an awful lot of my time in there, because I was swimming three times a week (in the morning) and my kids were training four times a week (in the evening).

    Within weeks, staff had to permanently supervise the new changing rooms because the sexual harassment of female swimmers was horrendous and seemingly unstoppable. Like many other women, I complained many times to staff to get them to get it sorted, to no avail (we did this because many of the victims were underage). In the end I gave up and stopped going swimming. None of our complaints were recorded or passed on to police – and we certainly didn’t know we should have done that so we could better argue with the “that never happens” brigade!

    Self-exclusion is what many if not most women do in such situations – we are taught risk avoidance from a young age and in some situations the only rational solution is to avoid a facility where we feel uncomfortable and unsafe. After all, we often get blamed if we use such spaces despite our misgivings and something happens. We certainly don’t confront the men who cross our boundaries very often because we learn early that this can lead to violence.

    I have recently been back because I hoped they had sorted it. No, it got worse. As with all other mixed-sex spaces, this is now a firmly male-dominated space where men leave their cubicle doors open and there are signs up on the wall reminding them not to walk around naked. I won’t repeat the experience.

  418. RM says:

    Get our independence first then debate any issues with common sense.

  419. DW says:

    As things stand, there’s no serious threat to the party’s hegemony in Scotland for the forseeable future. The Unionist vote is splintered and the Unionist parties are barely-functional jokes, torn apart by Brexit and a whole raft of other things.

    It might seem totally unlikely*, but surely the biggest threat should be the LibDems.
    If they merely came out and said “we are not in favour of Scottish independence, but we believe in democracy, so we will do all we can to ensure Scotland gets another referendum”, that would surely get them an audience?
    What would they have to lose?

    *with Jo Swinson especially

  420. Cod says:

    Col.Blimp IV @ 10.23

    Gender is a social construct, and therefore as fluid as the society which constructed it allows it to be. Understanding of this fact is inherent in the term “gender identity”, which itself can change – for example at the point when a person “discovers” (for want of a better word) they are gay.

    Sex is a scientific designation based on the biological equipment and chromosomal make-up. But even sex is not fixed , as science progresses in understanding – after all there can be variations in sexual organ presence, chromosomes, sex hormones, etc., which lead to sexual identity which does not conform to traditional labels. And a simple body swap thought experiment shows that this is still a difficult question – if you go to sleep in your own body and you wake up in the body of someone of the opposite sex, are you the sex of the body you are now in, or the sex of the person who was in the previous body. Is your sex determined by your body or your consciousness. Is sex physiological or psychological?

    So the old arguments are just that – old arguments. It’s not really political correctness to claim that the standard “there are two fixed genders, and two fixed sexes” is incorrect, since science has proven that once you start looking at the subject at a more granular level, through the lens of scientific and sociological research, there is much more than meets the eye – in societal, philosophical, physiological, and psychological terms for gender, and in the latter two for sex.

    Not even the favourite argument that having an XY chromosome makeup means you’re male and two X chromosomes means you’re female, stands up to scrutiny these days,, since variations, gene translocation, and straight up mutations mean that you can be born as the genotype of one and have phenotype characteristics of the other.

    I also don’t think that people who think in the old two genders, two sexes patterns, or even people who have understood that gender is not really a thing, and argue on the basis of sex instead, are being dinosaurs. They are just being what the society they were brought up in has informed them to be, based, hopefully, on the best knowledge available at the time. It’s incredibly hard for people to change positions on entrenched knowledge, particularly when it is of the socially constructed / peer approved variety. Research shows that children start to conform to peer approved choices by the time they are five or six, and that includes attitudes on gender, and everything associated with that.

    “If your children were to self-identify as Mermaids or Centaurs, would you believe that they were born into the wrong bodies and treat them as if they actually were mythical creatures? “

    That’s a specious argument. Nobody is arguing that people who identify as mermaids, centaurs, or fridges, or lamp posts, or any of the million other dumb things thrown out by people using that argument, are actually those things. Or, indeed, that anyone is actually identifying as any of those things. Male bodied people who identify as females, and vice versa, are an actual thing, backed by science, not a made up argument. If one of my children stated they were a mermaid I’d know they were being children. If they had issues with the body they were in compared to how they felt then I’d be considering whether they were affected by one of the many variations at a genetic level which are documented.

    Not being able to live as a mermaid is unlikely to have any long lasting mental effects on said child, since one would assume they would outgrow that particular fixation, given that mermaids are not real. The same can’t necessarily be said for not being able to live in the right gender role – tales of mental ill health, caused by precisely this, are rife amongst the non CIS community, and is still prevalent amongst gay people in a lot of societies.

    ­”Gender re-designation by attestation or the knife is not a THING“

    It really is though. Since gender is a social construct then it can be re-designated by pretty much any means. Gender re-designation by knife is simply an attempt to make genotype and phenotype match on the one hand, or an attempt to make phenotypic appearance and socially acquired gender preferences match on the other. Sex re-designation, on the other hand, is at the moment at least, much harder. That said, as our ability to pursue genetic manipulation increases even that may not remain the case – although it opens up a whole obvious can of worms itself.

    There’s a good paper that goes into some detail on this subject, if you’re interested in reading it:

  421. Alex Birnie says:

    I’ve always known that you’re an arrogant bastard, Stu, and that’s great, because we are opposed by arrogant bastards, and we need our own arrogant bastards to fight back. However, this “trans/women” issue may be a hot ticket for you, but it’s certainly not a hot ticket issue for (I suspect) the vast majority of Scots. It’s a peripheral issue for most people, who, not having the “fetish” interest in it that you do, don’t give it much attention, and are bemused by the passions that it engenders on both sides. I watched the video, and despite your “explanation” of how terrible a person Black, is, am still bemused by your “anger. However, that’s not my main point. You need to give yourself a shake, Stu, and stop allowing your obsession with gender issues to make you less effective as a political force, because trust me, many people admire and respect your ability to speak truth to power, but we cringe when you “go off on one” about your personal beliefs and prejudices. When Paul Kavanaugh cast doubt on the sincerity and commitment of the SNP leadership, it caused me to worry – a lot – and I’m still worried. When you do it, it looks like you lashing out in a fit of pique, because you think that they aren’t punishing Black quickly enough. Now, if you think I’m a stupid person for expressing these concerns, I really don’t give a toss. I suggest you get off your high horse, and concentrate on the day job. Your opinions and your expositions of unionist lies are a vital morale boost for us yessers. Your opinions on non-independence issues? Nah! Not so much. On this issue, you blend in with the rest of the polarised nutters from both sides of the argument. IMO.

  422. Movy says:

    Time for Wings to move on.
    We need more insightful analysis into independence and much much less about this debate.
    Please Stu, give this a rest and move back to what you’re good at.
    We need you to do that.
    The Scottish Government have parked the GDA for the time being; PLEASE do the same.

  423. CameronB Brodie says:

    This is indeed a very complex issue and there are competing philosophical positions for each side. Do you believe that sex is an emotional state and it is therefore possible to change sex? Is DNA socially constructed?

  424. DW says:

    A lot of posters seem to be missing the point of this article.
    The SNP seems to be perfectly happy to wade needlessly into a divisive issue in a clumsy, and heavy-handed manner.
    In the process alienating voters, and consequently risking independence.

    So, the point is, why is independence such a low priority for the SNP?

  425. Ahundredthidiot says:

    Hammers for Alex Birnie….please!!!

  426. Cod says:

    @ CameronB Brodie 2.22

    What do you mean by an emotional state? What do you mean when you say sex? What do you feel DNA – as opposed to genes – had to do with the conversation?

    Specificity of terminology and meaning is key to any conversation, but particularly in this one, and essential when the main points contain elements of philosophy.

  427. annie says:

    Movy – The Scottish Government may have parked this issue for the time being but clearly Mhairi Black SNP MP hasn’t nor has the SNP twitter account holder who re tweeted and promoted it. Some things too important to just let pass.

  428. Joe says:

    @Alex Birnie

    Whether people accept false/fake science to push broad social agendas that negatively impact many is a giant issue. Anyone who doesnt get that has their head in the sand. I prefer to think of them more along the lines of ‘utter fuckits’ though

  429. Joe says:

    Was meant to be fuckwits. Ill get my coat..

  430. Essexexile says:

    The commenters on this thread who have posted along the lines of ‘forget this issue, let’s get back to concentrating on independence’ are completely missing the point.
    This silly bloody issue is going to be the thing that breaks it for us all and you NEED to get up to speed and realise the threat it represents.
    I’m afraid it rather looks like the long held belief that Scots are more politically engaged than rUK might be tosh after all. The number of people who say ‘I don’t understand the trans debate’ or ‘I don’t care about it’ makes me want to scream! It’s a stance which has no more merit than the idiots who voted leave saying ‘ I don’t understand the economy but I do know there’s too much immigration’. It seems folk can only understand a political debate if one side is draped in a saltire and the other stamped with a ‘butchers apron’.
    Go on and on and on about sovereignty and 300 year old treaties as much as you want but when the female yes vote collapses and you’re left wondering why, maybe then will you realise the error of your indifference to the trans debate and wish you’d done something about it.
    WAKE UP!

  431. CameronB Brodie says:

    Here’s one for all who believe trans-women are women.

    The Dialectic of The Dialectic of Sex

  432. Alex Birnie says:

    Joe, I know that you agree with Stu that this is a “giant issue”, but I sincerely believe that you are wrong. It just doesn’t impinge on the vast majority of Scottish voters. BTW, I try not to think of those who disagree with me as “utter fuckwits”. It’s perfectly possible to have a different opinion from someone, without being an “utter fuckwit”. I set myself a target of talking to a minimum of five no voters a week about independence. Since I started, I have spoken to hundreds of different folk, about various aspects of independence …. the currency, GERS, sovereign funds, pensions, tories, GDP etc etc. The percentage of folk that have raised this subject with me is currently running at zero. Stu and others (including Mhairi Black) are getting their knickers in a twist about something that just doesn’t bother ordinary folk. WRT the issue, personally, I am with Paul Kavanaugh on this. He seems to be a voice of reason among the sea of ever-strident voices, and I agree with him…

  433. CameronB Brodie says:

    Alex Birnie
    True, this issue has yet to penetrate the general consciousness, but that does not mean the issue is being blown out of proportion. This is a very serious matter, unless you think women are second-class citizens. Do you think it possible to change sex and are you happy that legislation was about to be passed that would undermine legal reason?

    Democracy, Gender Equality, and Customary
    Law: Constitutionalizing Internal Cultural Disruption


    Customary law often includes gender discriminatory rules that
    violate women’s rights under constitutional equality guarantees. Dialogic democracy theory offers valuable tools that can help a legal system both to protect customary law and to protect the equality of its women citizens. By focusing on the need for challenge and on the dialogue within the cultural community, the legal system can create incentives and conditions to support the capacity of women to shape the customary law of their own communities.

    This approach is necessary because legal rights for women, when imposed by the larger society, often result in backlash within minority communities. In the long run, the structural inequality of women cannot be addressed by legal rights alone, but must be addressed by programs that seek to give women the power within their communities to achieve their own equality.

  434. CameronB Brodie says:

    What I’d like to know, is who the hell is giving the Scottish Government legal advice?


  435. CameronB Brodie says:

    Last one.

    Pressing for progress: women’s rights and gender equality in 2018
    Full report and recommendations

  436. Alex Birnie says:

    Cameron, it is of course an important issue, and as I said, I am bemused by the various arguments, but not only that, by the viciousness of both sides against the other. The complexity of this argument makes it difficult to follow. The fact that you have to use phrases like “dialogic democracy theory” demonstrates that. I had to “google that shit”, before I understood what was being discussed. My beef is with Stu. This issue is so important to him that he uses his considerable political power to lash out at the SNP leadership, suggesting that they are insincere in their quest for independence, merely because they seem to disagree with him on this issue. He is acting like a child. He may be absolutely right about this gender issue, and the SNP leadership might be 100% wrong (I’m confused about it), but his temper tantrum and his “throwing the baby out with the bath water” is irresponsible in the eyes of folk like me, who are watching helplessly as independence seems to be slipping from our grasp, while factions within the Indy movement tear each other to pieces. Stu is a vital cog in the mechanisms that will get us indy, and many of us use his “exposes” of media lies every day, when we are talking to people. Every time he puts on his “nasty git” hat, he is not only making it easier for the press to pillory him, his words become less valuable to US. He is a fantastic resource for yessers, but every time he “goes off on one” with one of his “personal crusades”, he makes it more difficult for ordinary yessers. I can’t be the only one who has said over the years “Oh Christ Almighty! I wish you hadn’t said that, Stu!!” He’s just had to spend a bucketload of money, defending his personal reputation against the odious Dugdale woman (which he was absolutely right to do), but which would have been totally unnecessary if he hadn’t made that tasteless joke about Oliver Mundell. What we need is to appoint a chief of staff for Stu, who will be at his shoulder, saying “Ahem! Do you REALLY think that another joke about Sevco is going to advance the cause, Stu?” In our fight for independence, Stu is our battle tank, but he makes an awful mess, when he goes off-road…….

  437. CameronB Brodie says:

    Alex Birnie
    Point taken.

  438. CameronB Brodie says:

    Please don’t think that those posts were directed solely at yourself.

  439. SilverDarling says:

    @Alex Birnie

    It is simply not my experience that it is an issue of little importance to most people.It really depends on who you speak to.

    On the contrary once it is brought to their attention there is incredulity and then real anger at how it is being dealt with and is the topic of most concern to the politically minded women in my work and home circle. I know of a couple of NHS managers who are already panicking at the cost of expanding what is for now women’s’ services to include trans women with the implication that there will be a real contraction of finances for natal women.

    There is an atmosphere of fear about talking about it here as if it will somehow derail Indy when in fact everything should be up for discussion. The Unionists – especially the Labour cohort – are surely sitting back waiting to see how the wind blows and then will swoop in with their own modified plans after the SNP have made all the mistakes. This is the OBFA all over again, well meaning but a shockingly bad execution.

    It should serve us all that due diligence is done and that other parties cannot jump in on a platform of repeal of shoddy legislation when all the disasters start happening. We have to get this right.

  440. Cod says:

    On the contrary once it is brought to their attention there is incredulity and then real anger at how it is being dealt with

    And part of the problem – actually an enormous part of the problem – is that this is an immensely complicated subject, encompassing issues of genetics, psychology, physiology, and philosophy (up to and touching on the hard problem of consciousness), which people simply do not understand the ins and outs of, unsurprisingly. Hell, on the latter part of that list, philosophers of much higher mental acuity and agility than any of us have been arguing for a very long time indeed and are barely any further forward.

    Then,of course, as is human nature, it comes down to an emotional response. And, as I’m sure we’re all aware, emotional responses are not built on logic and are incredibly open to manipulation by others, particularly those who can appear to reduce complex problems to simple solutions.

    It’s easy to say that trans women or trans men (although I rarely hear anyone mention trans men) are not the gender they are inhabiting, post surgery, despite the fact that such surgery now means the phenotype matches with the genotype, but it’s a lot harder to prove it one way or the other without recourse to academic studies and scientific or philosophical language and arguments. Which, again, leaves most people trying to decide who to listen to. And loud simple statements will always win.

    It’s how Trump became President, it’s how Farage got to where he is, it’s how Johnston is about to become Prime Minister. It’s how Bolsnaro got to be President in Brazil. It’s how Hitler got elected in 1930s Germany. That should be enough to give people pause to ask if the simple solution is actually the real one.

    Whether the argument is correct or not, I do not pretend to have an answer. Perhaps it would behoove all of us to speak to people actually going through the process, or those affected by it. It should be noted that the majority of sexual attacks, as I pointed out earlier, are not carried out by trans men or women, but by straight males in male bodies identifying as males. Maybe the incredible anger I see in this debate everywhere might be better aimed at the real culprits of sexual violence in our society.

  441. Alex Birnie says:

    Silver Darling …… again ….. I agree with that, the issue needs to be addressed,and Stu is perfectly entitled to his views, as are all of us. I don’t have a problem with Stu letting off steam, and I actually agree with him on most issues, but his OTT “lashing out furiously” at the SNP leadership, to the point where he suggested that they are hypocrites who are now too comfy and are not committed to independence, had all the appearances of a childish person, using hyperbolic language, stamping his feet and throwing the toys out of the pram. If we are all subject to criticism, the so is Stu, when he acts like a prat, as he did here. Let’s suppose the SNP leadership are 100% ideologically committed to this, and they refuse to bend on the issue? What then? MY attitude would be “Fine – that’s another reason why I will be voting for some other party AFTER independence, but in the meantime, I’ll grin and bear it, like I do every time Pete Wishart says something daft, or Fergus Ewing speaks”. Stu’s attitude APPEARS to be (and I may have misconstrued what he wrote…”If they don’t do EXACTLY what I want, I’m going to squweem and sqweem until the house falls down!!”.

  442. CameronB Brodie says:

    Yes there is a lot of disagreement on this subject but no, I’m not a right-wing bigot. My concern is women’s rights, not pandering to misogyny.

  443. CameronB Brodie says:

    Do you believe sex is the same as gender-identity? Do you believe it possible to change sex?

    The Public Law of Gender: From the Local to the Global
    Introduction: A Public Law of Gender?

  444. CameronB Brodie says:

    Fill your boots ladies AND gentlemen.

    Women’s Human Rights

  445. Scozzie says:

    Alex Birnie
    Your criticism of Stu is misplaced. Stu and others (myself included) would not be discussing this issue if it wasn’t a pet project of the Scottish government (and I accept the other parties also support GRA reform).

    It is by the fact the Scottish Government is pursuing these legislative changes, when quite frankly, in my opinion, there are far greater issues of importance to be working on such as independence that is getting me and probably others rather irate over the matter.

    Mhairi Black’s little video was childish and demonstrated her lack of understanding on the matter and I hasten to say she has been indoctrinated by the trans lobby. That is not befitting of an MP – so to criticise Stu who has rightly called her out on this – which is his job, is unfair.

    As has been mentioned, self ID impacts on women’s rights. Proper impact assessments on women and girls were not carried out as part of the consultation – a major oversight as it’s us women who will be most affected by self ID – i.e. if we are to say in law that ‘trans women are women’ by simple self declaration without the need for a clinical opinion of gender dysphoria; it completely redefines what it means to be a women. Does our biological sex no longer have meaning in law?

    And how does this affect our drive for independence? Well as Stu points out, we’re 52% of the electorate. Please do not dismiss this issue as unimportant, because if you do you may find women will focus their attention on this issue over independence. It will take the entire independence movement to say ‘stop’ GRA reform is not the priority for now.

  446. Alex Birnie says:

    Scozzie, I am obviously not explaining myself properly. Stu is perfectly entitled to his opinion, and it’s his blog, so he is entitled to express himself in as vituperative a manner as he wants. I am willing to concede that this issue may be gaining prominence, but I wasn’t kidding about the percentage of people who raise it with me in any discussions about the SNP or independence -zero!. However, even if you are right, and I am wrong about the importance of this, and even if Stu does get a bit too hot under the collar, I think he is totally out of order making the sleekit insinuations that he has done on this post, about the sincerity of the SNP leadership. The Wee Ginger Dug raised this issue of doubt a few weeks ago, but he had the honesty to say that it was his opinion, and it was in response to some pretty strong attacks on yessers from SNP notables. Here, it just looks like Stu is raising this in a fit of pique, because the SNP won’t play ball, and he’s saying “It’s my bad” and I’m going home. The worst bit about it was the sleekit way he did it. “A rationale reasonable argument can be made…” …… Bollox to that! He then goes on to say that the leadership don’t do exactly what he wants, then they should stand down. Well, again ….. bollox to that!! Unfortunately, nobody else is as effective as WOS as a weapon against the forces lined up against us, and I suppose that we’ll just have to accept that we’re stuck with his petulance.

  447. AyrshireScot says:

    “Unfortunately, nobody else is as effective as WOS as a weapon against the forces lined up against us, and I suppose that we’ll just have to accept that we’re stuck with his petulance.”

    Strange way to end a comment on a post which is all about how the SNP will self-destruct independence by supposedly alienating a majority view on a complex issue.

    If alienating existing and potential independence support by miring the Yes cause in extraneous, divisive issues, then WOS is the supreme proponent, current and past master and champion of self un-awareness.

    I don’t know enough about the GRA. Until last week I wasn’t aware of Ze and Hir pronouns. I don’t know enough about this issue or trans people. I do know that trans people are faced with inequality, discrimination and need more support, empathy and legal obstacles removed. Empathy, compassion and equality should be our start point and aim.

    I do know know that if you scroll up, the same quasi-medical “facts” being quoted by those pople with a very visceral anti GRA view were the same views and arguments applied to gay people in the 1960’s – no such thing as “being gay – just a mental illness” “not scientifically proven”

    But why are we commenting on a pro-Indy website about this?

    If Stu is against SNP and Yes deflecting from Yes at all costs and staying focused on Yes, he should not post about this? and not post about Kezia Dugdale case; and sexuality of MP’s fathers. These deplete Yes support – these also turn Yes supporters to No, based on negative association of Yes/ SNP with +perceived= homophobia and intolerance.

    If Stu is saying that most Scots voters can’t distinguish between devolved Scottish Government duty to act, sometimes in an unpopular way – banning smoking in public, work car park carbon tax, gay marriage — and independence, then Stu and those who echo his comments have a pretty poor view on Scottish electorate.

    I think most Scots voters can distinguish between current issues in devolved parliament and the issue of independence. Thus the SNP should pursue a progressive agenda for devolved government and also independence. These are not exclusive. For those who think not, the SNP was probably wrong to support gay rights in 1989 at Westminster? And you don’t trust Scots to choose a constitutional future?

  448. CameronB Brodie says:

    Do you think that undermining the human rights and social position of biological women is progressive? Do you think of yourself as a misogynist? Well, you’re assisting misogyny by conflating self-ID with gay rights.


  449. CameronB Brodie says:

    Critical realism is the philosophical meta-theory used in the social sciences to explain complex causation.

    Why we need critical realism in the sex and gender debate

  450. AyrshireScot says:

    In the 1960’s consenting gay male adults were imprisoned in UK for being gay. In the 1980’s/90’s it was illegal for teachers to refer to homosexuality, specifically to refer to homosexuality as “normal”. in 80’s/90’s UK many gay men had career ruined, criminal record for love. Until late 2000’s electro-convulvise torture/ aversion therapy to “cure” gayness was legal in UK. It is still legal and promoted in USA.

    Ignorance, pseudo-science, proclaimed scientific, social/ physiological/ biochemical “understanding” by unqualified bigots allowed this

    Behold the below

    A female who has what was once refereed to in jest as a tyadicktomy operation, does not become a Male, just a hormone pill popping, surgically modified version of herself.

    Just because the fantasies of Mary Shelly and H.G. Wells can almost be realized by modern surgery does not validate the work of our contemporary real-life Dr Moreaus and Barron Frankensteins in humouring the delusional to line their own pockets.

    If your children were to self-identify as Mermaids or Centaurs, would you believe that they were born into the wrong bodies and treat them as if they actually were mythical creatures?

    Or would you have their physical appearance surgically altered to match their fantasy?

    My point being were are what we are, if we believe otherwise we are deluding ourselves. Gender re-designation by attestation or the knife is not a THING … It is a fantasy.

  451. AyrshireScot says:

    “Do you think that undermining the human rights and social position of biological women is progressive? Do you think of yourself as a misogynist? Well, you’re assisting misogyny by conflating self-ID with gay rights.”

    No, I just think Scottish independence will be achieved in spite of diversionary, sex/gender/ toilet obsessives who think think this is a blocker to Indy

  452. AyrshireScot says:

    We critically need independence

    CameronB Brodie says:
    7 July, 2019 at 7:25 pm
    Critical realism is the philosophical meta-theory used in the social sciences to explain complex causation.

    Why we need critical realism in the sex and gender debate

  453. CameronB Brodie says:

    “No, I just think Scottish independence will be achieved in spite of diversionary, sex/gender/ toilet obsessives who think think this is a blocker to Indy”

    So you’re short-sighted and narrow minded then?

  454. CameronB Brodie says:

    The SNP have been infiltrated by irrational ideologues (see Hunter and Black, for example). This is a serious problem that must be sorted out, or the party will bleed support.

    Relating realist metatheory to issues of gender and mental health.


    This paper seeks to advance the debate that considers critical realism as an alternative approach for understanding gender and mental health and its relatedness to mental health research and practice. The knowledge base of how ‘sex’ and ‘gender’ affect mental health and illness is expanding. However, the way we conceptualize gender is significant and challenging as quite often our ability to think about ‘gender’ as independent of ‘sex’ is not common.

    The influences and interplay of how sex (biological) and gender (social) affect mental health and illness requires consideration. Critical realism suggests a shared ontology and epistemology for the natural and social sciences. While much of the debate surrounding gender is guided within a constructivist discourse, an exploration of the concept ‘gender’ is reflected on and some key realist propositions are considered for mental health research and practice. This is achieved through the works of some key realist theorists.

    Critical realism offers potential for research and practice in relation to gender and mental health because it facilitates changes in our understanding, while simultaneously, not discarding that which is already known. In so doing, it allows the biological (sex) and social (gender) domains of knowledge for mental health and illness to coexist, without either being reduced to or defined by the other. Arguably, greater depth and explanations for gender and mental health issues are presented within a realist metatheory.

  455. CameronB Brodie says:

    Is Scotland on the point of abandoning science based public policy?

    Culture and the social construction of gender: mapping the intersection with mental health.


    The social construction of gender is an important concept for better understanding the determinants of mental health in women and men. Going beyond physical and physiological differences and the traditional biomedical approach, interdisciplinary study of the complex factors related to culture and society, power and politics is necessary to be able to find solutions to situations of disparity in mental health, related to both prevalence of disorders, availability and response to treatment. Gender inequality continues to be a source of suffering for many women around the world, and this can lead to adverse mental health outcomes.

    This review focuses on developments in the literature on culture, gender and mental health over the past decade, focusing on themes around the social construction of gender, mental health and the media, a look at cultural competence through a gender lens, gender and the body, providing some examples of the intersection between mental health and gender in low-income countries as well as the more developed world, and the impact of migration and resettlement on mental health.

    At the clinical level, using a bio-psycho-social-spiritual model that can integrate and negotiate between both traditional and biomedical perspectives is necessary, combined with use of a cultural formulation that takes gender identity into account. Research involving both qualitative and quantitative perspectives, and in many cases an ethnographic framework, is essential in tackling these global issues.

  456. Charlie says:

    The percentage of folk that have raised this subject with me is currently running at zero.

    That may well be because they do not know whether it is safe to do so. I have nothing to lose, so I bring it up wherever I go and most people react with relief that they can talk about the issue and share their concerns.

    But those who do have something to lose avoid the issue when talking to people whose views they do not know. I have met women who have lost their jobs over the issue and many more who are leaving voluntarily because they either cannot ethically justify working under these new conditions or because they are sick of being silenced and scared.

    The new women’s rights groups, especially For Women Scotland have been inundated with emails sent by people who are effected by this issue in their professional or private lives. If you really want to know if people are worried, you could try bringing it up in conversation, but if people critical of transgender ideology and legislation don’t know they can trust you over this, they may not talk to you at all.

  457. Alessandra Asteriti says:

    SNP are afraid to lose the young vote. So they put forward this unmitigated bullshit.

  458. Alex Birnie says:

    Charlie, when I’m talking to neighbour’s and friends about politics, I don’t consciously bring this subject up, possibly because I am as confused by the arguments as many people are. The two sides of the argument seem to have no middle ground between them. You’re either my mortal enemy, or my bosom buddy. It’s probably quite natural that those folk who are personally affected by the issue, wouldn’t bring it up with someone talking to them about pensions, or currency, or tories, or any of the other issues connected to independence. Now, maybe I am totally wrong, and this issue IS a hot button that’s going to bite the SNP in the arse, but I see no evidence of that. I know only one trans person, and I’m not close enough to her to discuss it with her, but all the women in my life are as bemused as I am, and are certainly not going to desert the SNP because of it.

  459. jay says:

    nobody outside the twittersphere gives a flying fuck about this issue, or do they realise its going on. all seems a massive overreaction to me, although i agree Mhairi Black needs to calm down a bit and apologise. She didn’t come off well at all and sounded like a wee aggressive ned.

  460. kestral says:

    so gonna have may say on a few, – yes too many to read, so picked a few from the top a few days ago and now the bottom to finish this off

    “There has been mixed changing rooms for years in swimming pool and health clubs. There are absolutely no problems.”

    Think someone called you out on the stats for this, however going to make a different point, when there are woman only sessions, ie those that cater to muslim, and i believe a jewish belief set of woman, then this needs to be female bodied only, for them to participate, or should they just be thrown under the bus in all of this. Bit like the ponds in england where there is a Male Pond/Unisex Pond/Female Pond – female pond had to be turned into Male/Female pond yet there was a unisex pond available – see why we wonder what is the driver behind all this

    “Well, that seems to have outed a fair few of the “If this or that doesn’t change, the SNP will never get my vote again” sorts.
    Noted with thanks.”
    Really, 30 years plus of fighting for SNP, 99% agree with everything they do, they are very very few things I have every disagreed with the SNP on, so to throw it right back at you, i assume that as you make such a comment, you are actually active in going out there and doing something, or did you just from your armchair make comment. my credential to have a voice are 30 years and a conscience about right or wrong to achieve a goal

    “A long grass moment.”
    From what I am hearing that’s not so – this hasn’t been taken back to stage 1, all they are doing its going ahead with a draft law – ie the exact next stage of the process anyways just pushing it out to after next elections – so it’s no win situation for us woman unless the draft law provides lots of protections, ie waxmyb*lls

    “It is reminiscent of the fight for Gay rights. Many people were opposed and gave scurrilous arguments as to how it would affect other people.”
    I believe some people are born in the wrong body, i get it when i talk to them, for I feel woman, they are me, and in my heart I know that, they will self limit to allow woman of religion to go swim together, they will self limit to not take woman positions in stem subjects, i know them as woman, for their self sacrifice is a huge part of what makes them woman, and here is the most heart breaking thing that one of them said to me, when the shit hit the fan, which it will, with aggressive male behaviour dressed as woman, the ladyboys will cut their hair, put on their suits and ties and go back to work, and they will leave the real trans woman to suffer the backlash of the worlds hurt.

    Humans have progressed in their acceptance since the gay rights movement, so much so that I believe you are able to adopt kids, see that one, we get you as humans who will never be able to have kids, yet we trust you with our most precious asset, children, maybe its well past the time you actually stopped feeling so sorry for yourself, would hate to think that being punched in the face and made to lie still and open my legs, was still defining me 20 years later, seems you still struggle to get over it

    “Because whatever our differences that currently exist between Scots of all passions and issues, we ALL NEED TO GET INDEPENDENCE FOR SCOTLAND first.”, would i put independance above a law that would take a lot to be revoked, would i ever sit in old age or wish my land to take me to her bossem if i acquiesced to something that resulted in a youngster suffering abuse, no we don’t need independence, if we do it at the cost of our souls, Scotland was ever only our land if we are true to her, if we fight for her to be a beacon of justice, and yes thet ment hard question on tw and having to decide on those bondries, otherwise she is worthless as a cause because we have chosen to sully her to achieve a goal, do you really think she’d thank you for that, when we care not how we achieve her

    “I thought M. Black was brilliant. Until I saw her video yesterday – which is an utter disgrace. But here is the thing, if all who share these reservations rip up their membership cards and walk away – you are doing the exact thing that is wanted.”

    wanted by who, now if this had been a video posted against her by a unionist then i would agree with your point, however unless she was held at gunpoint to make that video, with the sneering, – then I pretty much think that i am entitled to have my reservations and my entitlement to decide to rip up my card, it was her, doing it, seems she is willing, infact more than willing to watch us rip up our cards, think you need to examine who you are blaming for this, – so i await your replay to who exactly wanted this?

    ok answered points I quickly found, read a whole load of replies on here to STU

    so I totally defend stu to point this out, I am disappointed in those who think our land should be won at the price of shutting up about this issue or any other one,
    we have no Scotland unless her people have her, ie her integrity i have found stu to be balanced, metooexcesses, he was so right to call it out, i am perfectly able to get a job based on my ability, not my sex, i totally disagree with “positive” discrimination,

    so as far as I can see he will not agree with any of us, he will require us to think for ourselves, he will require us to question ourselves, seems quite a good ideal to always check yourself, one should, otherwise the white line and how far we walk from it might end up being normal,…

  461. voter says:

    Ms Black’s videos are shocking and will put off anyone thinking of voting for the SNP, does she really think that is the way to gain votes and trust? She forgot that many non SNP voters will see those videos…losing hearts and minds is what she does best.
    The rev is correct the SNP MP’s are addicted to the London lifestyle and useless being there. Same goes for Holyrood, good salaries being paid for piss poor results.
    Not one of them will give up those wealthy voted in lifestyles where you never need to achieve your main goal. I wouldn’t either.
    If Scotland became independent…goodbye fat London salary and goodbye SNP

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