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Wings Over Scotland

Hubris: A Warning From History

Posted on January 17, 2020 by

We had a brief but semi-enlightening debate on Twitter with some daft young idiot from Scottish Labour this morning, which culminated in his desperately clutching at votes for the Tories and Lib Dems last month as somehow representing a victory for Labour.

Readers can pass an idle moment by identifying all the obvious logical flaws in that tweet for themselves, but it did lead us to a striking realisation, which we instinctively knew was true but still had to double-check because it seems so ridiculous.

The realisation is that it’s still LESS THAN FIVE YEARS since Labour held 70% of Scottish seats at Westminster. Although it feels like about a hundred lifetimes ago, in fact not even a single full normal Parliamentary term has passed since the party had 41 of Scotland’s 59 MPs. (The five-year point will arrive on 30 March this year.)

That tiny fragment of eternity has seen it plunge to FOURTH place in the Scottish MP count, with a lonely Ian Murray trailing in behind the SNP (47), Tories (6) and Lib Dems (4), and on a par with a guy whose own party repeatedly urged people not to support him but who still managed to win as many seats all by himself as Scottish Labour.

The northern branch office is now a complete shambles, by its own admission, with a catastrophically unpopular leader who can’t even manage to get his policy initiatives discussed, but nobody else in the party who actually wants his thankless job. Even the deputy’s position is such a poisoned chalice that people only want half of it.

It’s pretty much universally agreed that there’s no real prospect whatever of Labour becoming relevant in either Scotland or the UK for the next 10 years at a minimum (unless you can honestly imagine Rebecca Long-Bailey being Prime Minister). Even its most dogged and faithful defender in the Scottish media said a few days ago that it “faces the very real possibility of political extinction”.

(The only thing the Daily Record is wrong about there is that there’s been anything “slow” about the death of Scottish Labour. It’s happened at blitzkrieg pace.)

The party’s talent pool is now more of a scraping of sludgy mud off the gritty dregs at the bottom of the barrel, and it only just barely managed to cobble together enough candidates to contest every Scottish seat last year.

(We use “contest” in its loosest sense there. Labour lost more deposits in December than at any election since WW2 as its vote plunged to a record low, dropping below 20% in Scotland for the first time in more than 100 years.)

And once again, we have to reiterate: all of this has happened LESS THAN A SINGLE PARLIAMENTARY TERM after the party occupied 41 of 59 Scottish seats and was still dizzy with somewhat premature post-indyref triumphalism about the next election.

And as we approach the five-year anniversary of Jim Murphy’s greatest ever headline, it might serve the SNP well to note the sheer dizzying speed with which life can come at a political party. Some era-defining events lie on the very near horizon. For the sake of the Yes movement, let’s hope its main vehicle is prepared for them.

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  1. 17 01 20 13:57

    Hubris: A Warning From History | speymouth

125 to “Hubris: A Warning From History”

  1. Effijy

    Its a Labour of Loath.

    There record in just about everything in the modern era is a disaster.

    I wouldn’t consider them capable of delivering my milk.

    Their pathetic party have condemned England to a minimum 20 year period
    Under Tory rule and their current fascist group will ensure there is no way back
    Other than a New New Labour Party impersonating a right Wing Tory Party.

    Scotland must depart and further develop our own fair and just society for all.

  2. vlad (not that one)

    I would also prefer to have more pandas or fewer tories.

  3. Neil Mackenzie

    Gloating aside, that is quite a chilling cautionary tale and I get how much you had to bite your tongue to put this article up as it is.

  4. Alasdair Angus Macdonald

    Clearly, the Scottish Labour Unionist clique are circling the wagons to protect their dwindling privileges.

    When Andrew Neill interviewed Lisa Nandy and when she displayed her ignorance of Scotland and her British Unionist arrogance, he ended by saying, “You sound exactly like the Prime Minister”.

    He actually put to her that the SNP did not fit her ‘nationalist’ straw man. He might well be a pretty right wing person (he and I were contemporaries at Glasgow University during the 1960s), but he can actually interview as interviewers should. I can seldom recall occasions when any BBC Scotland interviewer really challenged Scottish Labour spokespersons. (And serious challenges to the Tories are as common as hen’s teeth.)

  5. Abulhaq

    Political parties are a means to an end. The Tories end is the maintenance of their power holding establishment, and they’re very good at it.
    Labour’s founding purpose was to replace that establishment, in that it has been a failure.
    The SNP’s function is to secure independence.
    Parties that fail in their purpose or outlive that purpose e.g the Liberals, fade and die.

  6. Bob Mack

    Fair comment Stu. I vote SNP for independence.I dont quibble about the fact they do very well on a budget, and govern fairly.

    However my main reason remains Indy. Its up to the SNP to back that faith, or surely someone else will.

    I ask myself this question. What if the SNP dont deliver?

    I guess I wouldnt vote at all if there was nothing else that fulfilled my hopes of being a citizen in a free Scotland.

  7. ben madigan

    posted this some time ago. It illustrates an intermediate stage over the past 4-5 years. The signs of Labour’s demise in Scotland were all there to see!

  8. terence callachan

    I think the reason Labour have Leonard as their leader in Scotland is that he is English and being English he will never ever try and split the Labour Party in Scotland into two with one part of it becoming favourable towards Scottish independence.

    It was a big Westminster fear that Labour in Scotland might split and if a part of it did separate and start to support Scottish independence it would take all the soft YES labour voters overnight and a good deal of the Labour NO voters into the YES for Scottish independence camp overnight .

    Labour will be quite happy to keep Leonard ass leader in Scotland even if they have zero MP,s because their number one priority is to keep a huge rump of left leaning voters away from Scottish independence.

    In many countries around the world that were colonies of Britain it was often the case that their Labour Party was split down the middle with once half in favour of remaining tied to Britain and the other half being in favour of independence.

    Having a Labour leader that is Scottish and has always lived in Scotland and has their relatives in Scotland is much more likely to turn them into a pro independence person

    So Labour are being fly.

  9. Juteman

    Excellent critique of what happens to a political party when it fails to do what it was elected to do.

  10. manandboy

    Labour in Scotland, and arguably in England, though less so, is but a shadow of its former self, and even that may disappear completely.

    Times have changed dramatically, but, rigid as a dead dinosaur, Labour couldn’t and wouldn’t change to meet the demands of the new political landscape.

    I look forward to hearing the news of Labour’s complete demise in Scotland. They won’t be missed.

    In any event, after Independence, Labour will just be part of the totally rejected infrastructure of Unionist colonial-style rule.

  11. desimond

    As Cry & Hue sang – “Gonna withdraw my love of Labour””

  12. North chiel

    “Scottish” Labour is exactly the problem . People in Scotland now recognise clearly that there is no such party as “ Scottish” Labour . It is the London based U.K. ( principally English) Labour Party. As until there is a separate “ Scottish Labour Party” ( in favour of Independence) , then “ Scottish” Labour will continue to be irrelevant in Scotland.
    The ignorance of the “ trainee “ English based leadership candidates ( Phillips & Nandy) of Scottish politics is there for all to see . The establishment is poised to “ take back control” of the Britnat Labour Party as they need a establishment alternative reserve government to “ go into bat” when the Tories “ deem it appropriate” that they have run their course ( and require to take a back seat usually to regroup and plan their next moves to take us back to the Victorian Era ) . Corbyn just wasn’t acceptable because of his pro Palestinian views, and I would expect the obvious establishment “ plants” close to the Corbyn leadership to now take over , to make the Britnat Labour Party acceptable again.
    The Scottish electorate now clearly see “ Scottish “ Labour as a “ complete sham” who have to lie down to their Britnat London paymasters and have little or no say whatsoever in an English dominated Britnat London centric Labour Party.
    The North of England will now take precedence over Scotland for both Britnat Labour& Tory parties . Scotland will be relegated in Britnat terms for the foreseeable future . Hence the urgent requirement now for Independence.

  13. Vivian O'Blivion

    Ian Murray is running for Deputy Labour Leader. I wonder how many in the electorate are aware of reports of a mystery poll in Edinburgh South a couple of years back which appeared to be Murray sticking his toe in the water on whether to run as a Labour candidate or as an independent?

  14. manandboy

    Meanwhile, we remain on the crippled Titanic, unsure if we have the Indy lifeboat still available.

    “Thus, as has been clear for a long time, we will end up a country made much poorer in order to please the Brexiters whilst having to endure their perpetual displeasure with what has been done. It is as perfect a lose-lose scenario as can be envisaged, and the Bloomberg report has put a figure on just the first instalment of just the economic aspect of that loss. There is much, much more to come.”

    (Note: the UK is a ‘country’, even in English academia)

  15. kapelmeister

    Labour is a zombie party. So if Starmer wins the leadership he’ll be the Knight of the Living Dead.

  16. terence callachan

    Even though Labour in Scotland only have one MP they have most of the voters that the independence cause needs , by a long long way it is Labour voters that will be the ones who will turn Scottish independence into a majority

    Forget the tories
    Forget Lib Dem’s

    Neither of them will supply voters to the Scottish independence cause

    It is Labour that is still our main target

    Too many people look at Leonard as a dead loss and discount his danger to the Scottish independence cause but he is the most harmful person in Scotland to the Scottish independence cause because he continually talks of federalism , international socialism and too many people follow the hope of Labours history

    We need to make Leonard’s tenancy uncomfortable the sooner we can replace him with a Scottish person that actually lives in Scotland the better

    At present Labour sally along clutching the huge number of votes that Scottish independence neeeds

  17. James Finlayson

    The biggest strategic error ever made by Scottish Labour was to allow proportional representation to be allowed into local council elections. With that one action they not only began the erosion of their own dominance and payroll vote in the central belt of Scotland, they also gave the SNP and other parties the opportunity to gain a foothold at local level in many places where they had been seen previously as irrelevant. The only way back for Labour now in Scotland is through being an independent political party inside an independent country.

  18. Mist001

    Like I said yesterday, why shouldn’t people in Scotland vote Tory? It doesn’t matter who they vote for, it’s the Tories that always end up running the show from Westminster. I only vote SNP for independence and nothing else but since they’ve moved the goal posts yet again, fuck them.

    Labour? Waste of vote. Lib Dems? Waste of vote. Greens? Waste of vote? SNP for independence? Waste of vote.

    Which leaves…………

  19. Fraser MacKintosh

    Labour HQ in London always had a large number of Scottish lackies in westminster to boost their numbers.With no Scots to fill their gap will Labour HQ reduce the money to the branch office.

  20. Capella

    After Westminster passed the Fixed Term Parliament Act we’ve had elections every two years. The FTPA is the reason why the SP elections were scheduled for 2021, so that they wouldn’t clash with the UK election in 2020.

    Perhaps Holyrood should revert back to the scheduled timetable. Wouldn’t give Labour much time to recover though.

  21. Sharny Dubs

    Yer painting yourself into a corner Stu!

    Best argument I heard so far for an alternate Independence Party in Scotland.

    So, so, needed.

    Wings ahoy!!

  22. Stuart MacKay

    manandboy @2:09pm

    Normally Chris Grey’s blog is a bit too wordy but that’s a good read – thanks. The line that stood out for me was:

    “That could include recognizing the economic case for sacrificing fishing for financial services.”

    Seems the EU is keen to negotiate fishing rights up front and it looks like the God-fearing folk of Peterhead are going to find out that in Boris’s plans they are as disposable as Northern Ireland.

  23. Robert J. Sutherland

    Stuart MacKay @ 15:05:

    folk of Peterhead are going to find out that in Boris’s plans they are as disposable as Northern Ireland.

    T’was ever thus. The Tories did exactly the same when we first joined the EU back when. We were sacrificed for England’s interests then and we will be again. (And fishing quotas, which don’t depend on the EU, will necessarily stay in force as well. But there’s no fool like a greedy fool.)

    Mind you, it’s already stonkingly obvious that there isn’t a man, woman, child or beast in Scotland who will benefit much at all from London’s would-be global money-laundering economic bubble.

  24. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    “Labour is a zombie party. So if Starmer wins the leadership he’ll be the Knight of the Living Dead.”

    Have the afternoon off 😀

  25. Scot Finlayson

    Was there not some Brutish Labour MP that said Independence supporters should be bayoneted after defeat in Indy 1,

    Brutish Labour in Scotland were just pigs at the Westminster trough,

    big wage just to turn up for votes then out to the club for champagne and cocaine,

    and if told, slag of Scotland to press and parliament.

  26. Chic McGregor



  27. Chic McGregor

    “Was there not some Brutish Labour MP that said Independence supporters should be bayoneted after defeat in Indy 1”

    He also said if Scotland voted yes but Glasgow voted no then it should leave Scotland and remain in the UK.

    Glasgow voted yes but vice versa never applies in Labourspeak.

  28. Dan

    Aye, the memories of McTernan and Murphy Bot 900 seem like a generation ago…

    Meanwhile…Scotland and our Schrodinger’s EU membership.

    We’re howlin’ at the moon
    The flag’s up n’ it’s doon
    We’re oot n’ we’re in
    My heid’s totes birlin…

    Katy Perry – Hot n’ Cold seems appropriate…

    ‘Cause you’re hot then you’re cold
    You’re yes then you’re no
    You’re in then you’re out
    You’re up then you’re down
    You’re wrong when it’s right
    It’s black and it’s white
    We fight, we break up
    We kiss, we make up
    (You) You don’t really want to stay, no
    (You) But you don’t really want to go-o
    You’re hot then you’re cold
    You’re yes then you’re no
    You’re in then you’re out
    You’re up then you’re down

  29. Grouser

    It was Ian Davidson (Labour) who said that. Ousted from his comfy seat by Chris Stephens.

  30. Terry

    but who still managed to win as many seats all by himself as Scottish Labour.


    But also well done that man!

  31. Clapper57

    @ Stuart MacKay @ 3.05pm

    Re any betrayal of Fisherman.

    Those who Voted Brexit and also voted for a Tory at last GE.

    If they, the fishermen, do get f**ked over by the above then Hell mend them I say….as I am sure many others also say.

    If they are unhappy at being f**ked over by the Tories via Brexit then should get those who royally f**ked them over, i.e. the Tory who they voted for at the last GE, to sort it out and do NOT ask the Scottish government,who they chose NOT to lend their vote to in the last GE and indeed bucked the trend in Scotland by voting Leave as opposed to Remain, to mitigate this for them.

    They really really need to see Douglas Ross, David Duguid oh and Alister Jack….they promised them so much via Brexit and voting Tory… so they should contact THEM and ask THEM what they are going to do for them….failing that…or rather should they be confronted with a brick wall a La Tory….then they will have to just suck it up.

    I voted Remain and SNP and I am 100% against them, fisherman, thinking that they can call on the Scottish government to bail them out in ANY way should they be f**ked over via Tory Brexit promises ( in return for votes)…….indeed they, fishermen, have made their (water) bed and they must therefore lie in it…because bad decisions do have consequences…if they didn’t we would never learn would we ?

    And the lesson is NEVER TRUST A TORY……

  32. dakk

    If all the indyref2 and won’t be dragged out of Europe rhetoric turned out to be just that, then I can’t imagine the SNP would not expect a very nasty backlash at the polling booths next time out.

    Would they be so politically naive? I don’t think so.

    That said, entryism and opportunism are afflictions no organisations are potentially immune to.

  33. twathater

    @ North Chiel 2.08pm I agree totally with the whole of your comment , but I feel you are tooooo kind and forgiving , as far as I’m concerned liebour in Scotland are DESPICABLE , their representatives at ALL levels have betrayed and abused their core vote of ordinary normal working people , in this context I will GLADLY CELEBRATE their annihilation

    What people have to remember is that under the stewardship of liebour in Scotland Scotland has become the barren wasteland that they take great pride in reminding us of , what they will never do is admit it or apologise for it , they never listened then and they STILL don’t listen now

    What i’m more concerned with now is that the SNP SG don’t fall into the same trap , because the Scottish enlightened people ( as Liz g puts it ) up with it we will not put , Scotland as WE all know is a great country with an abundance of natural resources including it’s citizens which the SNP SG has been TASKED to protect and free us from our enslavers , that is what they were elected to do , that is the primary goal , tying their own hands or attempting to assuage a corrupt bully will not achieve that task

  34. Jomry

    It is all very well for commenters to pile in with the well trodden and well earned lambasting of Scottish Labour – but this article is essentially about the SNP.

  35. Robert J. Sutherland

    An interesting observation by Stu that I hadn’t myself clocked. Clearly Labour themselves have been clinging-on in the hope that the “anomalous” =ahem= situation would soon enough “rectify” itself and return the party to its “rightful” =cough= pre-eminence. The latest UK election, given the usual heavy-duty metrocentric media emphasis of these, was by far their best chance, and instead the SNP (and their voters) delivered the party a massive and salutory slap in the face.

    Yet the party keeps giving the distinct impression that they have nowhere else to go. Hanging on even further in the hope that, in a renewed compact with the Blue and Orange Tories, they can use the peculiar AMS voting system to engineer a minority pro-indy parliament and thereby totally frustrate any new indyref at source? That doesn’t seem like a very convincing strategy for recapturing public support. Helped along by tone-deaf English exceptionalist “noises off”? More like another political suicide note, really.

  36. Dr Jim

    Tories took from Scotland so people don’t and didn’t vote for them, they voted Labour because they thought like star wars they were our only hope even though everybody knew they were corrupt brown envelope Bastirts

    Then along came this SNP lot full of ideas for Scotland and folk said let’s give this a try, they did and so far the SNP have not robbed Scotland and in fact done a load of good things, that’s probably the reason they’ll remain the dominant political party for as long as they appear not to take from their own country

    Scots don’t like being taken for mugs and there tends to be no going back when they’ve made their decision on what they want and indeed what they don’t want and that’s why Labour and Tories are done forever in Scotland

    The Tories accepted their fate in Scotland a long time ago
    so will always treat Scotland as a colony for as long as Scotland allows them to do it to us
    Labour are in the throes of deciding whether to try again in Scotland or just give up on Scotland and be obvious about it just like the Tories

    I haven’t mentioned the Liberal Democrats in all this because well I don’t believe there’s anyone in Scotland who has any doubts over what they are

    The only chance of another political party supplanting the SNP now is another brand new party saying they’ll do the same things as the SNP only better, but that if it ever happens is likely to take *a generation* to rise to the level required to challenge them

    So if you think the SNP are OK then you’re fine, if you think you don’t like the SNP then get used to it because if they want to they’re going to be around for a long time, unless they make the same mistakes as the Tories or Labour

    Scottish people don’t care for change much if what’s there isn’t bothering us, well it’s how Labour managed to sit on the mantlepiece for so long until someone (the SNP) came along and dusted them and they fell off and broke

  37. SilverDarling

    An absolutely chilling warning for any party that thinks this could not happen to them.

    These days so-called Right and Left overlap in so many ways. Purity politics dominates and the young are seduced by identity issues that are quickly unmasked as dog whistles that play on their insecurities and anxieties.

    The old definition of what is working class no longer applies with a zero hours slave wage economy and unless you have a vocational degree or course your uni time seems of little value.

    I voted Labour for the last time in 1997. I could not have envisaged then that I would never vote for them again. This gives people like me an odd freedom to look from a distance, unencumbered by party loyalty to see why that happened.

    To put it simply, the party I thought stood for things I believed in no longer behaved that way. They said one thing and did another too many times – and when that happens you move on and find another party. There are so many of us who no longer feel we owe any party anything. The SNP should heed all the warnings before it is too late.

  38. Lenny Hartley

    O/T my mate has sussed out the SNP Plan, it will be worth waiting for. Not long now!

  39. Josef Ó Luain

    Loyalty to a cause is an admirable quality to behold in people. Blind-loyalty, not so much.

  40. Scot Finlayson

    The Brutish Labour Party in Scotland pre 30th March 2015,

    (Shelley`s Ozymandias )

    And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
    Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
    Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
    The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
    And on the pedestal, these words appear:
    My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
    Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!

    The Brutish Labour Party in Scotland May 7th 2015,

    Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
    Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
    The lone and level sands stretch far away.”

  41. ahundredthidiot

    I’m astounded that the time frame is that short. This is why I contribute to Wings – for reality checks like that.

    Any SNP MP taking their seats in Westminster on February 1st need to hang their head in shame.

  42. terence callachan


    We know you are a Tory voter
    We know you live in France

    You said you live in France and vote in the Scottish independence referendum ?
    But either you are breaking the law because only people living in Scotland can vote in a Scottish independence referendum

    Or you are lying

  43. ahundredthidiot

    ok then, the 2nd Feb – they should all walk out enmasse on the 1st

  44. Doug

    Never have I wanted to see February so much.

  45. terence callachan

    There is a YES for independence group in the Labour Party in Scotland
    If only someone would lead them to breakaway and form a new
    Scottish independence supporting Labour Party

  46. Dan

    OT Bit of a scunner…

    @Muriel Gray

    Here’s Lauren showing the more acceptable way to be smokin’ hot when in or affiliated to Art School named buildings in Glasgow…

    Chvrches – Lies

  47. HandandShrimp

    Remarkable feat that, winning the argument then people voting for diametrically opposed parties.

    Labour made a case and 18% voted for it. We know that about 30% of that 18% would consider independence. I wouldn’t call that a huge success but maybe I’m just being picky.

  48. AltClut

    Labour isn’t trusted by unionists any more and refuses to have anything to do with independence so it is, deservedly, dying.
    Independence is the biggest, single political issue in Scotland so as long as the SNP doesn’t cause its supporters to believe that it has betrayed indy AND ‘keeps ahead’ of other parties on the NHS and other community first issues it has time to find a way out of the UK.
    We have to hope that the, very controlling, leadership of the SNP truly understands what several have said above – that many thousands of us who are SNP members are ‘independistas’ because we are social democrats and we see the party as a sort of parliamentary democratic ‘national liberation front’ until either, we gain indy or we become convinced that the SNP leaders are not going there and are therefore closing the last door to a caring social democratic future in any part of these blighted British Isles.
    Most of us have doubts sometimes but on balance still trust the SNP.
    Betray us at your peril !

  49. jfngw

    Labour in Scotland dies and England gets excited about ringing a bell on the 31st Jan, For Whom The Bell Tolls, It Tolls For Thee.

    Are we going to avoid this English death knell.

  50. ahundredthidiot

    OK, apologies in advance Rev.

    At some point over the past (lets say) month, I have had the privilege of being a guest at the Scottish Govt building in Glasgow that is Atlantic Quay.

    Being a good boy, hitting the gym early and keeping myself well hydrated, on arrival, I find myself bursting for a pish – off I go to the loos.

    on the floor I’m on, both loos are gender neutral – fuck that – knowing my luck, I’d bump into some millennial chick who thinks every human with an XY chromosome wants to ‘hurt’ her – I’d be confronted by several security guards on egress, jailed for the weekend, career over and basically fucked….so, it’s no going to happen.

    so, off I go to the floor above, where memory tells me there is actual real Male and Female toilets (you know, like actual real biological, scientific fact) – so in I go to the Gents, by this point I really am bursting, so the first cubicle ahead will do.

    And there I am, relieving myself. Straight away I hear someone coming in and entering another cubicle. Then I notice the container to the side of the pan – and isn’t it just for female hygiene waste. Freak out time. Nip the flow and out I head. On the way out I notice a table full of tampons and pads (Jesus, I’m in trouble now) and out I go……But I’m sure I checked the door and there was a wee man on it!

    Sure is shit it still is a wee man on the door, so back in I go. I look around – there are no urinals and the tampons/pads are still there. cognitive dissonance is rejected out of the urge to pish and the evidence of my own eyes, plus, I need to finish my business, so I do.

    Washing my hands I am joined by the Staff member who had come in out of visual, so I ask what the gig is – he’s embarrassed – mumbles something about Gender initiatives.

    Done my heart no good, I can tell you that.

  51. iain mhor

    @terence callachan

    As I mentioned in the previous post, its an error thinking about potential Independence votes on Party lines. There may well be a few Indy votes to come yet from Labour voters, but it was the 30% of non-voters in Scotland who turned out, which decided the Indyref result in 2014.
    Look to them.

    Of course many of those may well have been ex-Labourites who gave up voting, This article warns of the SNP also shipping their voter base. In which case, in any theoretical future Indyref, there could be 50% or more non-voters turning out – but with such weak remaining ‘electoral’ representation, how would the husk parties at Holyrood, claim any authority to demand a referendum in the first place.

  52. Big Jock

    Always find it interesting the yoons lump all their votes together after an election. But during the campaign they sell themselves as seperate parties.

    As if all Labour and lib voters are voting against independence! When we know at least 10% are pro Indy.

    They also exclude the 1% of Scottish green votes. Or that 16 and 17 year olds are not counted in GE. Or that EU citizens are excluded.

    Or that this is a general election not a fucking referendum. The rules of a GE are that you win the majority of seats. That’s how democracy works. I care about the 46% who voted for indi parties. Who are being denied a voice and a choice of staying in the EU. The Labour and liberal voters can go hang as far as I’m concerned.

  53. Dan

    I see #bigbenbrexitbong is trending.

    So is the crowdfunder and work getting done on BB basically converting it into a fuckin mahoosif crack pipe for the inhabitants of the UK, coz huffin’ class A shiz and meltin’ yer napper is aboot the only way I can think “Brexit” would make any sense in my mind.

  54. CameronB Brodie

    A party that lacks autonomy from London, is about as useful to Scotland as a car without a steering-wheel.

    British Labour are trapped into competing for power on Tory terms. That means selling Tory-light policies to the south of England, AND NOT RESISTING BREXIT. A truly internationalist party concerned with the well-being of social democracy, would understand that the EU has to impose some restrictions on immigration, and that this rational response to circumstances does not make it institutionally racist. It’s certainly a lot less racist than Westminster, and a lot less neo-liberal, so this belief does not rationalise the failure to oppose Brexit. Especially as Westminster is a racist patriarchy itself.

  55. Republicofscotland

    Anyone know how the candlelit vigil went outside the Scotland Office in Edinburgh today from 3pm-6pm?

    I’m sure it was the day.

  56. Dr Jim

    The justice committee at Holyrood is coming after the internet abusers using defamation laws to shut them down, led by Margaret Mitchell Conservative and Unionist party

  57. David

    But you do live in Bath this site is based in Bath you do support the Lib Dems are you a member .
    This site is based in England as are you yet you tell us whats good for Scotland do you intend to live here .BTW hows the wings party going will it be run or organized from Scotland

  58. ahundredthidiot


    Maybe catch up on a few things mate, great if you’re new. The information is all on the site.

  59. Dr Jim

    @David 7:12pm

    Dominic Cummings lives in London, nobody voted for him yet he runs the entire British Isles

  60. CameronB Brodie

    P.S. I obviously forgot to mention the racism inherent to England’s vote to leave the EU. Does Scotland really want to go along with this?

    Minority Report
    Race and Class in post-Brexit Britain

  61. Mist001

    @ terence callachan

    I don’t lie, it’s just you who doesn’t know what the fuck they’re talking about. I gave you all the information and you’ve obviously wasted my time by doing fuck all with that information.

    Oh, and you missed (Mist?) the point of my post too.

    Not really the sharpest tool in the box, are you.

  62. CameronB Brodie

    Politics is useless unless it achieves results. If you live in Scotland and want to show solidarity against racism, you’ll need to get over your Euroskepticism, if you have any. And it would be irrational not to, given Euroskepticism has been a growing characteristic of British culture since the end of WW2. And reasons. 😉

  63. Al-Stuart



    Your article is spot on. I just read many comments on this thread and it seems only a few folk got the subtle point you make. I worry how the SNP are headed towards a cliff edge having bet Scottish Independence on Ian Blackford’s plan to save the English from Brexit.

    The SNP are ONLY in the commanding position because ex-Labour people left the lying Blairite and Brown dinosaur liars and LENT their votes to the SNP.

    I witnessed the dissonance at SNP Branch meetings first hand when the ex-Labour members were treated as second-class SNP members. Barley tolerated by the Fundies.

    Notwithstanding this, I crave a Tory-free Scotland. But the warning SNP kamikaze signs have been noted here on WoS month after month. Stuart Campbell has been getting dogs abuse. On this site and across at Scot Goes Pop.

    I genuinely wish Nicola would read this article on Hubris and take heed.

    Many of us who have been LENDING our votes to the SNP are VERY close to throwing the towel in and likely just not voting. It doesn’t take that many for the rot to set in

    A day or two ago, one of the WoS posters made a contribution to an earlier thread that stopped me in my tracks. He said Nicola was a very nice person; a good administrater; a competent politician: a capable manager, but sadly NICOLA STURGEON IS NOT A LEADER.

    I am minded to agree and wonder this:-

    Before the next Holyrood election, Alex Salmond will have had his trial. Sub-judice rules mean comment must be circumspect. However, it is fair to say, there are likely to be one of three verdicts…

    – GUILTY.

    I believe the U.K. State will do their utmost to achieve a GUILTY verdict, or backup of NOT PROVEN. They must get Alex Salmond off of the Scottish political scene forever.


    Because the finest LEADER Scotland has ever had is ALEX SALMOND.

    I pray and hope that an INNOCENT verdict is returned and to quote the great man himself…

    “You’ve no seen the last of my bunnet or me”

    I think Stuart knows a thing or two on these matters. Stu., knows where the bunnet is kept 😉

    Meanwhile, many Independence supporting Scots who WANT IndyRef2 sooner rather than later and would be VERY happy to see Alex Salmond return with his bunnet to the helm of the SNP and LEAD the SNP to IndyRef2..

  64. Pete Barton

    Oh, stop bitchin!!

  65. CameronB Brodie

    Sorry, I’d like to correct myself. It would be irrational not to harbor some Euroskepticism, as it is always rational to be skeptical towards institutions of power. And British culture, yadda, yadda….

  66. Liz g

    I’m hearing rumours that Steven Bonar the new MP for Coatbridge and Chryston ( Hugh Gaffney’s ) replacement,has just resigned triggering a by election….
    Anybody know if it’s true?

  67. Ian Brotherhood

    @Liz g –

    Just found a 20min old tweet saying the same but no source or response…

  68. Liz g

    Me @ 7.58
    Scratch that last comment…..bloody internet….
    It’s his role as a local councillor he’s resigning from…
    My Bad…

  69. Graham Fordyce

    Can I just ask the blindingly obvious, Stu:
    1 Do you think Scotland will become an independent state?
    2 If so, when
    3 How?

  70. Mike Lothian

    It has been a slow process, it’s just because of FPTP that Labour’s seats at Westminster all flipped at once. Looks at the results for every election by vote share and you can see this has been happening over the last 20 years

  71. Stoker

    One thing is guaranteed and it’s not very often anyone can say that about politics. The teams are basically split into 2, those who support The SNP’s approach to achieving independence and those who are against their approach. At some point very soon one side is going to be left looking very red-faced. Wonder who it’ll be? 🙂

    Tic Toc Tic Toc Tic Toc Tic Toc…

  72. Gary

    True, all true EXCEPT I think even IF RLB does get the leadership the result at the next GE will be VERY different to this one for the Labour Party.

    Looking at THIS GE for them, their vote share WASN’T as awful as the number of seats they lost. Remember, Labour got in last time promising to ‘respect the vote’ (Brexit) but then changed their policy to that of a second referendum. People like Kier Starmer and Jess Phillips led the call and, at times, mis-stated Labour policy as though second referendum WAS policy prior to it being pushed through. The scale of their betrayal of Leave voting northern English Labour voters was MASSIVE. Lifelong Labour voters (the majority) couldn’t have stomached voting Tory BUT, just at the right time, along comes the Brexit Party who cleverly DON’T have a manifesto that would put off Labour voters. They’re further to the right than the Tories but they decide to keep that under wraps to get some votes, then add in Boris’s campaign to ‘Get Brexit Done’ feeding into Labour voters annoyance and frustration and his late addition of the ‘Lend us your Vote’ tagline. With all of this, and the excuse of Jeremy Corbyn’s alleged anti-semitism, it takes the guilt away from Labour voters voting mostly Brexit Party and some directly for the Tories. JUST enough to let the Tories in the back door in so many of their seats. It wouldn’t have been quite as bad but for the constant smear campaign mounted against Corbyn since he beat those who tried to oust him. But THAT campaign came from WITHIN Labour, again, people like Kier Starmer and Jess Phillips. So desperate to oust Corbyn were they that they were willing to give away an election and allow Boris to be the one to negotiate Brexit. They have betrayed their voters, their party and the electorate.

    Having said all of that, at the NEXT GE it will be completely different. Most of the Brexit negotiations will be done, so Brexit will no longer be any kind of an issue. Whoever the next leader is, it won’t be Corbyn – so no smears. Boris has a hard term ahead of him, possibly the hardest of ANY postwar PM. Complete Brexit, keep his spending promises whilst enlarging the economy (when it WILL contract due to Brexit) and he WON’T have the benefit of borrowed votes, The Brexit Party OR a leader compromised by a well organised smear campaign.

    If Boris is able to win another GE it will be a miracle. Even another leader in his place won’t do well. Boris is a charismatic buffoon, beloved of the hardline Brexiteers. My prediction for the next GE is a small Labour majority.

    Boris won’t have kept promises, which is fine for the fanboys, but for everyone else they’ll be sick of him. Even the fanboys won’t vote for him out of ‘gratitude’ as Churchill found when the electorate booted him out in favour of Labour after the war.

    At the next GE the Tories will have been in power for nearly 15 years in one form or another. To stay in THAT long you’d have to have a track record that shows you are DOING SOMETHING that benefits the people, not just your mates..

  73. manandboy

    I would hate to think that SNP politicians of whatever level, are no different from the careerists who populate the House of Commons and the House of Lords, and who pretend to represent their constituency while in reality, they actually represent their business connections and sponsors. As a result of which, Independence is not actually their priority.

  74. Brian Doonthetoon

    Hi jfngw at 6:14 pm.

    You typed,
    “Labour in Scotland dies and England gets excited about ringing a bell on the 31st Jan, For Whom The Bell Tolls, It Tolls For Thee.
    Are we going to avoid this English death knell.”

    Just for you…

    From 1968 –

    And from 1984 –

  75. Simon Curran

    The only thing I would add is to your last paragraph. I’m not sure that they need to have done something that benefits the people, only that the people feel they’ve done something that benefits the people. The lack of media scrutiny and the residual class based deference will play in the Conservatives favour.

  76. robertknight

    Perhaps Labour in Wales can lend us a female Labour MP to make up a breeding pair with the only surviving Scottish Labour MP, thereby preventing the species from going completely extinct in Scotland.

    Perhaps a Welsh/Scot Lab cross might be useful for fetching sticks, rolling over, biting the legs of Tory canvassers, etc.

    Then again, it might be like its smaller cousin, the Scottish Labour MSP; yappy rats that spend most of the day chewing furniture, crapping on carpets and sniffing each others arses.

  77. Dr Jim

    Labours position will likely get even worse in Scotland followed by even worse in England, I’m afraid if we’re not outta here it’ll be Tories wall to wall in England deciding our fate with an ever increasing strangle hold and ever increasing new laws to restrict dissent of any kind

    The populist right has risen and it’ll be too late for the folk who think at the moment they’re Unionists in Scotland to change their minds

    Having said that I’m still very optimistic Scotland will have its say, It’s what they’ll say that worries me

  78. David R

    To be fair maths was never labour’s strong point

  79. Clapper57

    @ liz g @ 8.01pm

    Yes Liz bad…very very bad bad girl.

    There’s me trawling the T’internet looking for the usual rottweiler suspects aka hacks chomping at the bit to announce this….Hot gossip…and nowt could I see….

    You bad too Ian B for colluding in the hot gossip (Non)….

    Hope you are well Liz….

    From Flapper….

    Have a good evening…what’s left of it…

  80. velofello

    For supporters of independence supporting the SNP is the only present option within the elected political scene, and ill-considered criticism of the SNP is not helping the cause for independence.

    The AUOB provides the general population the opportunity to provide visible support to the SNP for action to achieve independence, and the SNP must take due heed of the strength of the AUOB marches.

    And so the SNP is at a crossroads: continue as present being efficient social minded administers of Scotland’s affairs,likely gain power again at the 2021 Holyrood elections, and sigh,continue to comply with Westminster’s unwritten procedures and contrived traditions. …Or –

    Recognise Johnson’s reply to the S30 request as the insult it is. Call it out. Voice our rejection of Westminster’s writ over Scotland’s affairs. The walkout by the SNP at Westminster had great effect.Each time insults and shouting down are directed at the SNP walkout.., and so demonstrate that the Speaker is failing in his duty, that the “Mother of Parliaments”democracy a fallacy. And never forget,Westminster will never play fair.

    The world is watching. SNP assert yourselves, nothing to lose but our political chains from an undemocratic Union.

  81. Liz g

    Clapper 57 @ 10.17
    Hey flapper 🙂 LOL
    I know whit im ah like…. But tis good being bad, Ha!
    I’m well thank you Flapper,I hope you are too xx

  82. Simon Curran

    Dr Jim@9.46
    Speaking of wall to wall Tories. There was a few years back talk of changes to constituency boundaries to make them more even in terms of number of voters. I can’t remember what happened to that, iirc May shelved the bill but it could easily be resurrected and would be advantageous to the Conservatives to do so because the predictions were that they would be the party who benefited most.

  83. Colin Alexander

    Have the SNP brought their MPs hame yet?

    Have we declared independence yet?

    Have we reconvened the Parliament of Scotland to exercise Scotland’s sovereignty to

    announced to the EU, Scotland’s Remaining until Scotland’s people decide to Leave.

    Have we announced Scotland’s gonnae haud a referendum on independence?.

    Have we told the Empire to stick Queenie’s K.O.E. sovereignty up their Lords chamber?

    Have we told the world the people of Scotland are sovereign:
    We sacked a King, we can sack a clown?

    No yet? Soon. I hope.

  84. terence callachan


    You live in France
    You s say you voted in the Scottish independence referendum
    Either you are lying and didn’t vote in the Scottish independence referendum or
    Your vote broke the law because
    You can only vote in a Scottish independence referendum if you live in Scotland

  85. terence callachan

    There were over half a million people in Scotland voted labour in the recent general election
    This is where we will get the votes for Scottish independence

    Not the 690,000 tories
    Not 270,000 Lib Dem’s

  86. terence callachan

    Still some people saying

    “ I lend my vote to SNP “

    As if that statement has some profound meaning
    It doesn’t
    We all lend our vote to whoever we vote for because
    None of us can see into the future and say who we will vote for in each and every future election

    The party you you vote for could disappear next year never to return , it’s possible
    So cut the crap “ lend my vote to SNP “

    No vote is permanent it only lasts as long as the next vote that takes place

  87. terence callachan

    CENSUS is done every ten years in Scotland
    The next one is this year 2020

    They phone and write to 72,000 people asking questions and from that they calculate

    This year Dumfries and Galloway , outer Hebrides , Glasgow

    Wish it were Orkney Aberdeenshire and Edinburgh

  88. Robert Louis

    A good point made well.

    There do seem to be some within the SNP who mistakenly think they will always be in power, yet the reality is very different.

    Society changes and people change their priorities, and what was important a few years ago, suddenly becomes irrelevant.

    Yet still, too many within the SNP talk of waiting a few years etc.. Such people are either politically naive, or are wilfully deluding themselves.

    As it has happened to Labour, so too it could happen to the SNP. It is a very good warning that the SNP really should heed.

  89. Scott

    Another timely piece of wisdom from Wings Over Scotland.

    I certainly hope the political “hard-heads” in the SNP read this website.

    Keep up the pressure, Stuart. You are doing a great job.

  90. Gary45%

    “Breakfast Bong”
    I’ve been listening to all the usual arseholes spouting Rule Shitania on the wireless all week regarding Little sized “Ben’s” bongs.
    Imagine for a second what their pathetic wee racist, inbred faces would look like if all the EU countries removed the butchers apron from all their buildings, play the fuckers at their own game. (please pass on idea to fellow decent human beings in the EU)
    Britain or should I say Engerland really is in for a massive wakeup call.
    The Empire is no longer, we know it, sit back and laugh.
    Mist001, How do you say Tory C*nt in French?

  91. Dr Jim

    I can’t wait for all the English folk and Scottish Yoons to wake up to the fact that they won’t be able to just nip to the airport anymore for a quick weekend somewhere sur la continent, then the realisation of visas, insurance, medical and the whole array of stuff we all had to do before we joined the EU kicks in, plus all the southerners who jump on ferries for their Booze cruises, and forget about just driving down to the tunnel and nipping through for the weekend, documents please

    We’ll hear them then, the forms the forms the paperwork, naebdy telt us aboot that they’ll say, except they’ll do it in their language which is to shout louder with a Pith helmet on, we’re British let us through, Boris and Nigel said so, I think Fuck off in French is the same as it is here

  92. Kangaroo

    Lenny Hartley @4:45
    Robert Peffers lurking somewhere.

    Its been obvious for quite a long time.
    This reiterates Robert Peffers and others POV. There are three videos to complete the link
    Main points
    a) Parliamentary Sovereignty is a “Convention” not law,
    b) Bill of Rights 1688 transferred Sovereignty of England to the English Parliament,
    c) the English Parliament was dissolved in 1707, ipso facto cannot be legally Sovereign, see point (a)
    d) Scottish Sovereignty rests with the people.
    e) the EU Withdrawal Bill has a clause that states that the UK Parliament is Sovereign, described as “Constitutional Graffiti”

    So the “Legal position” as RP has pointed out on many occasions is that the Monarch is still Sovereign in England and the people are still Sovereign in Scotland, but by “convention” we recognise that the UK Parliament is Sovereign. Remember what happened to the “Sewel Convention” at the Supreme Court.

    Won’t be long now, “Keep the Heid”.

    So Rev Stu the title of this blogpost is quite apt.

  93. mike cassidy

    Brian Doonthetoon 9.03

    Maybe they’ll be singing this on 31 January

    We certainly won’t be!

  94. mike cassidy


    Le Bleu Con

  95. manandboy

    The love of money is the root of all evil.

    The love of money plundered from England’s Colonies is the root of the largely evil English Establishment.

    The love of Scotland’s money is the root of much of what is evil in Westminster politics since North Sea Oil & Gas was discovered in 1970.

    England is drowning in debt, but remains obsessed with wealth.

    A poor Scotland would have been made independent centuries ago.

    We’re Better Together, Scotland, ‘cos you’re wealthy and we’re broke.

    Wake up, No voters.

  96. Tony O"neill

    O/T If the snp wants to fuck up Westminster, they should start by bringing up the paedophilia in Westminster and the rest of the British establishment. Also the pfi rip off, schools and hospitals not just in Scotland but the rest of the uk. That should give them something to shite themselves about, cos when Alex salmond trial starts there will be round the clock coverage of his alleged offences. Do unto others before they do unto you so they say.

  97. Brian Doonthetoon

    Hi mike cassidy at 12:48 am.

    You typed,

    “Maybe they’ll be singing this on 31 January
    We certainly won’t be!

    Good catch! How about,

    Or, a bit tenuously,

  98. Capella

    @ Kangaroo 12.42 – thx for the link to Carwyn Jones talking about the sovereignty, or lack of, of the Westminster Parliament. Someone says CJ was a barrister so he probably knows what he’s talking about.

  99. CameronB Brodie

    I think I might have mentioned that Parliament was no longer considered sovereign, and that it is only legal convention that maintains the supremacy of English law, with respect to Scotland’s constitutional confinement.

    Only an abstract but loads of interesting click-through links.

    Parliamentary sovereignty and the new constitutional order: Legislative freedom, political reality and convention

    Although the constitutional reform programme undertaken by the Blair administration is formally consistent with the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty, it is clear that the human rights and devolution legislation, in particular, significantly alter the political and constitutional environment within which Parliament’s legislative powers are exercised.

    This paper considers whether it is meaningfiul, within this new constitutional setting, to adhere to the traditional notion of sovereignty. It is argued that the disparity between a Parliament whose powers are formally unlimited yet increasingly constrained, in political terms, by norms based on fundamental rights and devolved governance may be accommodated, in the short term, by means of constitutional conventions which trace the constitutionally acceptable limits of legislative action by Parliament.

    However, following examination of the nature of convention and its relationship with law and constitutional principle, it is argued that the possibility arises, in the long term, that conventional limits upon legislative freedom may ultimately evolve into legal limits, thus ensuring that the fundamental values embraced by the legal order are acknowledged not merely in pragmatic or conventional terms, but as a matter of constitutional law.

  100. twathater

    And just when you think it couldnae get any WORSE FFS look who comes along

  101. Dr Jim

    The Scottish government are making moves to challenge and overule the decision of the Corporate body to bring down the EU flag
    Labours Ken McIntosh presiding officer insists the bringing down of the EU flag was non political but they would fly it as a mark of respect on Europe day

    The SNP and the Greens opposed the decision but all three Unionist parties voted to bring it down

    So there you have it folks the Unionists only want to respect the EU one day a year

    Nicola Sturgeon says Boris Johnson will not block Scotlands choice of Indyref2, it will happen

    Looks like she’s getting her dander up

  102. Richardinho

    Mocking Labour is like dancing on somebody’s grave. Ultimately pointless. What matters are the lessons that can be learned.
    In politics people vote for parties that they think can fight for them. (this is why it’s called a representative democracy). Labour in Scotland went into decline because it became obvious that they were nothing more than a self-serving clique. Corbyn’s Labour lost because nobody knew where they stood on Brexit at a time when that mattered. (If Brexit had never happened, I think Corbyn could have became PM). Likewise, the SNP will fail if they don’t push forward the agenda on independence.

  103. Al-Stuart

    Terence Callachan,

    Behave yersel. You sound like a troll, an abusive one at that. I quote your witty incisive contribution…

    Terence says: “cut your crap” in his rejoinder whilst dancing on the head of a pin. Prick.

    The “lend-us-your-vote” has in FACT entered the political vernacular when Nicola asked me and many of my ilk to lend her my vote. Quote:

    Terence, please stop your trolling.

    Either debate a point of bu66er off.

    Does anyone else get this trolling off of Terence?

  104. Golfnut

    @ Kangaroo.

    At last some at least are beginning to understand, if the people of Scotland are Sovereign, Westminster can’t be. Which is why Westminster can only legislate with consent and why the crown is the establishment underbelly.

  105. Frank Waring

    The SNP does not need to fall anything like so far as Labour has, to be finished off for ever: I must be very slow witted, because it’s only just occurred to me that what the unionist parties may well be planning for 2021, is (in covert cooperation) setting up a Scottish Unionist Party, which would put up no constituency candidates in the Holyrood election (instead recommending the best unionist tactical voting strategy, constituency-by-constituency), but would put up a full set of candidates on the list. If a reasonable proportion of unionist voters, having voted Tory/Labour/LibDem in their constituency vote, then voted SUP on the list, the result would probably be to deny the SNP the ability to form even a minority government. Remember that the Holyrood election system was designed to avoid any one party having an overall majority in the Scottish parliament. Stormont provides the example of a devolved administration that is a coalition of polar opposites, so a coalition scottish government of all four unionist parties is not inconceivable. The SNP could be permanently out of power at Holyrood, and therefore out of power everywhere. Goodbye indepndence, of course — and goodbye effective devolution too…….

  106. robertknight

    twathater says:
    18 January, 2020 at 2:46 am
    And just when you think it couldnae get any WORSE FFS look who comes along

    Someone must have seen a weather forecast for Sunday night saying thunderstorms are due. It usually takes a couple of thousand volts through the head to raise that creature from its usual state of torpidity.

    “It’s alive, ALIVE!”

  107. Effijy

    If there are any new visitors to the site
    Can I remind you unequivocally that SNP run
    NHS Scotland is the best performing NHS in the UK.

    I stated this on Radio Shortbread will tearing the Dick Leonard apart.
    Surprisingly the BBC Fact Checked my statement and agreed I was correct.

    These 2 female excuses for politicians will know this but they have adopted the
    Tory tactic of lying and repeating it with conviction in hope fooling the gullible.

    Labour Controlled NHS Wales comes third behind England’s Tory NHS in second rate, sorry place.

    RE Education in England has lower paid teachers, schools closing on Friday Lunch times as they don’t have funds to stay open.
    They don’t have free University Education like Scotland and they don’t have 95% of their pupils going on to a positive destination that being a job, training or further education.

    If either of these women had any sense, morality or socialist leanings they would be trying to help Scotland become independent. Then we can further develop these successes.
    Why wouldn’t they want to copy our practises to
    Benefit her own party and her own English citizens.

  108. Effijy

    So Labour of Loath are looking toward their failed Chancellor of the Exchequer and Prime Minister to help them out of a hole.

    That would be Gordo Clunker Brown.
    The man who should have been regulating the Casino Bankers
    The man who sold the UK Gold reserves months before the value doubled
    The man who stopped those wonderful final salary pensions
    The man who signed up £50 Billion of PFI schools and hospitals that are going to cost over £300 Billion.
    The man who scaremongers our pensioners by insisting an independent Scotland would not have old age pension while he knew they were guaranteed.
    The man who claimed independent Scotland would not have a blood transfusion service or be able to conduct transplant surgery.
    The man who was taking £10,000 per week in expenses from his own charity when it couldn’t donate to the Kirkcaldy food banks where he lived.

    Just the man for the job as he and Labour are both completely incompetent and not to be resusitated

  109. John Jones

    A thought occured to me, this doesn’t happen very often, so pay attention.
    Why doesn’t AUOB start a political party, they have the organisation skills, 10s of thousands following them, the means of raising the costs involved through crowdfunding and standing in the lists with the number 2 vote option.As a cross party organisation it would cut out the (you’re all SNP accusations)
    I’m quite sure we could get many hundreds of people offering the go on the list in order to ensure a large majority of independence msps, this would also have the effect of holding the SNP’s feet to the fire to ensure some action.

  110. Gregory Beekman

    Christ, if the SNP die off as quickly as Labour have then who the hell do we vote for?

    I can’t vote Tory and I can’t see Wille Rennie as FM, so I guess I’d be left with the Greens.

  111. Big Jock

    If the SNP continue to seek new mandates. People will call them the party that cried wolf. They are falling for the WM trap. Where they continually move the goalposts,every time the SNP win.What good is yet another mandate.

  112. terence callachan

    SNP won’t die off , there’s a new generation of YES voters coming along and they will vote for that one thing INDEPENDENCE.
    Only SNP represent Scottish independence.
    The greens have shown that they will support independence if SNP support green aims

    If another party were in power in Scotland would the greens support independence ?

    The thing is Scotland have control of so little that is England’s
    And England have control of so much that is Scotland’s
    I fully understand the logic of SNP doing as much as possible to get england to agree to an amicable separation
    So many people mistakenly think independence will come overnight
    It won’t
    It takes years
    5 years have passed since we nearly made it in 2014
    Once we get independence and we will , there will be no turning back
    That’s how close we are

    No country ever gets this close to independence and then turns against independence
    It’s here to stay and will be achieved

    British museums and art galleries are full of precious things stolen by Britain from dozens of countries around the world and Westminster refuses to return them.
    Scotland will become just another country on the list if do not leave with an agreement and division of assets and responsibilities for the future.
    An agreement rather than a no deal separation is best for Scotland
    If we can’t get england to sensibly sit around the table and discuss the way forward
    And that is possible
    Then I’m sure , certain in fact , that SNP will proceed with a referendum and independence

    I agree with an earlier comment that in 2014 many people who never ever vote turned out to vote in the Scottish independence referendum , but they were not all on the YES side , I think most of them were but not all.
    I reaffirm my view that it is from Labour that we must get the votes we need to give us a majority for Scottish independence.
    Labour voters in Scotland and across the U.K. are beginning to realise that Labour offers them nothing but there again the previous generation who after WWII had so much hope and were promised so much by Labour and then let down with a Big Bang seeing so much of postwar progress for the common man swept away by one or two Tory governments went back to vote Labour time and time again

    Labour voters are still going back to labour even after being let down but are doing so in fewer and fewer numbers

    The tories move further and further to the right and I hope that is enough to dissuade labour voters from moving to them
    Labour voters who have nobody to vote for may continue to vote against Scottish independence unless we persuade them it is n their best interests

  113. twathater

    Robertknight and Effigy further bad news , it appears jam murphy ( fundimundily ) is also being resurrected to help in the good fight to keep Scoatlind shackled , the COMEDY CLUB of Bitter togetherness is reforming we’re doooomed

  114. Big Jock

    Terence. What if the SNP can’t deliver independence. What if they keep getting mandates and don’t use them?

    I actually think we have already passed that Rubicon. We then need the people to deliver independence.But the people need a leader like Ghandi or Collins. Someone prepared to break the law.

    I believe this year is a critical one. We can no longer reply on the SNP. They are asking permission, when they should be carrying out Scotland’s democratic will.

    If we don’t act this year. Westminster will act outside the EU to close Holyrood down.The threat is real. It’s not fantasy. Direct funding is coming. Soon union flags will adorn every project in Scotland.

    The Tories will not care a jot if Holyrood is shut down. They will celebrate.

    Mark my words. It’s over unless the SNP or the movement act this year. It’s not a stand off over the section 30. It’s the first move in a takeover,and a political cou.

  115. David

    Dr Jim Jan 17 at 724pm correct about Dominic
    And I read in the National the Green rep on the committee Andy Wightman has tweeted the decision to remove the flag was unanimous and any reports of a split are not true

  116. velofello

    I would not rely on the Scottish Greens to support the challenge to Westminster on sovereignty. Contrary and impractical is my benign impression of them. Instance travel, as someone posted..’does Patrick Harvie suggest we bicycle up the A9?”…. and yes, the tsunami of cars blocking our transport systems needs to be resolved by credible public transport.

    And are the Scot Greens UK funded?

    The Wings initiative, or indeed a AUOB party to scoop up List MSP seats in the 2021 Holyrood elections is a must. Rev Stu and Neil Mackay please get talking.

  117. Dan

    twathater says: at 3:35 pm

    …it appears jam murphy ( fundimundily ) is also being resurrected to help in the good fight to keep Scoatlind shackled , the COMEDY CLUB of Bitter togetherness is reforming we’re doooomed,,,

    Ooh, I wonder if Tuba Boy Slim will be back once again to renege on the disaster… of Voting No in 2014 to stay in the EU…

  118. Brian Doonthetoon

    Hi Ian Brotherhood at 7:12 pm

    You asked,
    “Where is the EU flagpole at Holyrood?

    I mean, physically – is it on the roof?”

    Right outside on the pavement. See:-

  119. Brian Doonthetoon

    Sorry – posted that on the wrong page…

  120. terence callachan

    Hello big jock

    I think the SNP will lead Scotland to “ break the law “ as you say.
    But I don’t think they will do it until we can say we tried every way to get Westminster to agree to a referendum on Scottish independence
    and we gave Westminster more than enough time to think about it

    I do believe we have already done these two things
    I do believe the SNP will go ahead with a Scottish independence referendum whether or not Westminster agree

    I do not think Westminster will close Holyrood because that would actually work in our favour as evidence that we a nation are being deprived of our civil rights and I think the closing down of Holyrood by Westminster would lead to an immediate Declaration of Independence with a referendum as well
    Westminster are playing the game they have played with many other countries treating them as colonies depriving them of rights and ignoring offerings of discussion and compromise

    Westminster won’t give anything freely not even civil rights or freedom of choice
    The most recent country I can find that experienced what we are getting is Malta and it’s worth reading up about how Malta played it because the similarities in how Westminster behaved is exactly the same as we are seeing here in Scotland

    Either Westminster is too lazy to change how they do things
    Or they think they have a winning formula

  121. Frank Waring

    The threat is not that the SNP will die off in Holyrood (or in Westminster): the threat is that it will be weakened to the point that it is out of power at Holyrood — in this position it will have no constitutional tools available to even try for indyref2, still less independence by any other route.
    The problem with John Jones’ proposal — ‘Why doesn’t AUOB start a political party, they have the organisation skills, 10s of thousands following them, the means of raising the costs involved through crowdfunding and standing in the lists with the number 2 vote option. As a cross party organisation it would cut out the (you’re all SNP accusations)’, which is similar to Stuart Campbell’s WoS party plan — is that it will be a lot easier to get the word out to every LibDem/Lab/Tory voter that they’ve to vote for their preferred party for their constituency member, and then vote SUP on the list, than to convince SNP constituency voters that they should vote for some other party on the list. Whether we like it or not, that strategy will look like an attempt to frustrate or game the PR voting system, whereas the ‘SUP’ scheme will be strongly represented as being perfectly legitimate (no different in principle than, for example, voting Lab/LibDem/SNP in the constituency ballot, and then Green on the list — which substantial numbers of people do).
    The significant point is that the SNP only needs to be slightly weakened in Holyrood, to lose power there: and since that is the only parliament in which it does hold power, loss of power there could be terminally disastrous.

  122. yesbot

    terence callachan says:
    18 January, 2020 at 1:59 pm
    SNP won’t die off , there’s a new generation of YES voters coming along and they will vote for that one thing INDEPENDENCE.
    Only SNP represent Scottish independence.
    Oh dear Terence, that rhetoric is not deluding us anymore. It cannot sustain. Just stop.

  123. Muscleguy

    @Terence Callachan

    Pull yer heid in. If you own property in Scotland you got a vote. How Andy Murray, resident London got a vote: he owns a hotel near Stirling.

    So if Mist001 owns property in Scotland he/she gets a vote.

    Got it?

  124. Jams O'Donnell

    Like quite a few posters above I am becoming a bit disenchanted with the SNP. If they don’t effectively call out Johnston then after 20 years of voting SNP I will have to start voting Green instead.

    PS Anyone who denigrates ‘Scot goes Pop on this site, or who denigrates Wings on SGP is an idiot, a splitter (see ‘Peoples Front of Judea, Judean Peoples Front etc. etc.) and very possibly an MI5 tool.

  125. Al-Stuart

    This article should be mandatory reading for all SNP MPs and MSPs.

    As one of those millions of ex-Labour voters who LENT their vote to the SNP, I agree 100% with this article written by Stuart Campbell.

    On 31st January 2020, “Brexit Day”, the CURRENT SNP leader, Nicola Sturgeon has been found wanting as she proposes ANOTHER convention.

    Stuart Campbell hits the mark brutally, but rightly and accurately with the latest article…

    It suits the well paid politicians to take substantial salaries and the SNP to take £1,200,000 every year from Westminster in “Short Money”. Scotland has been sold too cheaply by the current political crop in control at Holyrood.

    Nicola is a pleasant manager, but NOT a leader, She has squandered a huge amount of good will handed to her by Alex Salmond.

    Disgustingly, Alex Salmond has been WRITTEN OUT of the SNP literature. Sub judice rules mean comment on that case needs to be circumspect.

    For this elector, my days of LENDING the SNP my vote are almost over.

    If Alex Salmond is cleared of the charges and brought back as SNP leader, I believe he will honour the promise of Independence for Scotland. NOT just act as SNP manager in Scotland and take all the admin money anent Nicola’s Woke Way.

    Stuart, I read all the comments to your article on this thread. Very few people seem to have “got” the point you were making about Hubris.

    Hubris killed off Labour in Scotland. Hubris will cause the SNP to go the same way. Maybe not so quick as people like me will just stop voting for any of th epolitical twisters. But it will go out of political power.

    I for one sigh for the loss of our Independence. Squandered by the FAT BANKER, IAN BLACKFORD. HE BET THE HOUSE ON SAVING ENGLAND FROM BREXIT when he had the levers of control to negotiate a Section 30 Order out of BORIS, at a time when the Tories had a MINORITY of 38 MPs.

    The fat banker Blackford and Ayrshire Scotia manager Mrs Murrell have been an utter disaster for Scotland. People will come to realise this, but not IndyRef cause is lost for another 100 years.

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