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Wings Over Scotland

Healing and uniting

Posted on October 15, 2014 by

On the BBC website today.


Just out of interest – does anyone know the last time Johann Lamont toured the country speaking to open audiences rather than invited and vetted Labour activists, or how many elections list MSP Alex Johnstone has won?

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  1. 15 10 14 18:01

    Healing and uniting | FreeScotland

  2. 15 10 14 18:42

    Healing and uniting - Speymouth

323 to “Healing and uniting”

  1. Betthy Boop says:

    You are back in business today, Stu, and it seems it is business as usual with SLAB!

    They must have trouble buttoning up their shirts, buttoning up the back the way they do!

  2. G H Graham says:

    I like pedantry so correcting Alex Johnstone is doubly rewarding.

    Ms. Sturgeon’s role as FM will not commence until she has received sufficient support from members of the party at a Convention that will not take place until November.

    Until such time neither she nor indeed anyone else is considered the FM while the incumbent, Mr. Salmond remains in charge.

    Any questions?

  3. Andrew Haddow says:

    Furthermore Johnstone seems to believe Nicola is Alex’s daughter.

  4. Doug Daniel says:

    Ahhh, Scotland on pause. There was me thinking we’d just had the most engaging political debate the country has ever seen, but no, we were on pause.

    Anyway, let’s now get on with calling for decisions to be delayed until Westminster decides to devolve more powers, shall we?

    Incidentally, what is Nicola supposed to do, say she won’t stand until some token second candidate comes forward? Knob off, Johnstone.

  5. muttley79 says:

    Lamont droning on about Scotland on pause again yet zzzzzzzz. Then says the referendum was divisive. Who made it that way Lamont? Did you think your virus rhetoric, and Darling’s blood and soil comments help? The Yes campaign was widely acknowledged as being the most significant political movements in decades in Scotland, and yet unionists are coming out with the same old dour, negative shit, despite winning?

  6. Holebender says:

    Cousin Alex (his mother and my mother were first cousins) knows full well that Ms. Sturgeon’s tour activities will be paid for entirely from SNP funds. What she or her party choose to do with their own money is none of his business and he can just shut the fuck up about it. As a Conservative I thought he would be completely supportive of individuals or groups using their own money as they see fit.

  7. handclapping says:

    If I stood on Alex Johnstone, I’d burn my shoes, socks and trousers. Should I also have my feet amputated just in case?

  8. iain taylor (not that one) says:

    I enjoyed JoLa’s schoolroom jibe at FMQs last week – referring to NS’ “coronation”.

    Just JoLa’s level, around the same as Johnstone’s.

  9. Donald says:

    Sturgeon stood unopposed because no one wanted to challenge her, with her being he best person for the job. And the streets *will* be paved with cheering “SNP loyalists” because I’ve not met a single SNP member who dislikes her.

  10. joe kane says:

    What’s wrong with Lamont uniting and healing the country if she feels so strongly that is what’s needed now?

    After all, it was the side her red tory scab party was on which actually won the referendum and it’s traditionally up to the victors how they’re going to treat the defeated. That’s what being victorious has meant for thousands of years anyway.

    Maybe she could ask MP Ian Davidson not to bayonet the 1.4 million or so YES survivors.

  11. G H Graham says:

    Johann “Stairheid Rammy Expert” Lamont is as sharp as Caboc cheese.

    Thus, she actually enjoys these periodic pauses because they provide extra time during which she read up on that Devo Nano proposal & perhaps one day explain to anyone who still cares what any of it meant.

    And isn’t the price of slightly salted butter these days, frankly shocking?

  12. ewen says:

    handclapping says:
    15 October, 2014 at 5:05 pm
    If I stood on Alex Johnstone, I’d burn my shoes, socks and trousers. Should I also have my feet amputated just in case?

    Bleach is good for keech. That would save the amputation.

  13. muttley79 says:

    Are Lamont, Johnstone, Brown et al trying to keep Yessers motivated, as that is what appears to be the case. By March at the latest Yessers will be itching to get back campaigning for the general lection. Who could fail not to be motivated by these absolute mediocrities telling us we cannot run our own affairs, babbling shit constantly, and generally being arseholes? They wind us up so much that we do not need to even motivate ourselves one iota. All you have to do is read comments from Stairheid Lamont and co, and they get you so angered that you are ready to go straight away again. Even in victory unionist politicians have to be completely horrible, deceitful, ungracious, and generally objectionable.

  14. Andrew Morton says:

    Interesting experience this afternoon. Walking along Musselburgh High Street this afternoon, just by where the Yes stall used to be, there is a Costa Coffee with tables out on the street. Four pensioners, male and female discussing independence, the Referendum, the SNP and Obama’s foreign policy.

    This is definitely a changed country!

  15. fred blogger says:

    WOW! if the last few months has been scotland on pause, ffs don’t get in the way when scotland’s in a hurry.
    rock and roll.

  16. A.N.Surgent says:

    As seven year deputy to AS there is no other candidate as suitable and qualified to run Scotland.

    As for “streets paved with cheering SNP loyalists”, loyalists?
    The only loyalists I know of were those that were running amok in the street in and around George Square celebrating the glorious union that johnstone so loves.

  17. msean says:

    Don’t pay any attention to vari-coloured tories, if members wanted someone else,they would have put someone else forward. As it is,I think Nicola Sturgeon will do a great job,very capable.

  18. Blair paterson says:

    Does Johnstone not realise that no one is standing against Nicola because everyone knows she is the best person for the job,it is a great compliment to Nicola that this is the case ,it is not a slight or something bad as Johnstone is trying to imply typical of him though

  19. Malky says:

    Exciting times we live in. Just signed up for the Hydro gig – I wonder if there might be a few more people there than the recent Lib Dem shindig around the corner? A stroke of brilliance to get out there and engage with the faithful; something neither Davidson or Lamont could ever contemplate or consider.

  20. Andrew Morton says:

    At the golf club today for the first time since the vote. Two No voters jeering at we Yessers. One of them is a taxi driver. I pointed out that dozens of embassies would have been set up which would have boosted taxi business. I congratulated him on his selflessness. Incidentally he’s also a pensioner who will now receive a lower pension than he would have done. Trouble is he’s a knee jerk Labour supporter who hasn’t had a political thought in his head all his life.

    The other guy is a Tory, also an OAP. I said not to worry as he”ll be dead soon and then we can have another vote.

  21. Mealer says:

    I can’t wait to go to the Dundee gig.Its just what is needed.I have good friends on the other side of the cultural and political divide.Im happy enough to keep up those friendships but there’s no way I’ll be uniting with them politically.And I’m very confident I can convince a few more to cross that political and cultural divide to the side they really,deep down,want to be on.Johnstone and Lamont are dross.

  22. Lanarkist says:

    The Scottish Media and Unionist tag team are diminishing Scotland’s political landscape. Their conjoined rhetoric and symbiotic relationship are minimising ideas down to celeb gossip level. Great minds discuss ideas, small minds discuss people.

    Brain washing continues unabated as they refocus their poison on N.S even before she is voted in as Leader of the SNP at party conference. They cannot stop themselves as they employ projection for their own pettiness and blame others for the negativity they spread across the airwaves.

    Oh to be rid of this school ground politics!

  23. HandandShrimp says:

    The thing that always tickles me is that one minute Johann is beefing about Scotland on pause and the next she is complaining about this policy or that policy. There are either doing stuff or they are not doing stuff. They can’t be on pause and doing stuff you don’t like Johann.

    In the meantime, under the SNP stewardship we have strong inward investment, lower unemployment than the rest of the UK and respectable growth. The biggest danger to the Scottish economy (apart from Johann) is a global downturn not Scottish Government policies.

  24. Onwards says:

    Since the unionists promised EXTENSIVE new powers for Scotland, then surely everyone in Scotland should be thankful for the referendum?

    Presumably we wouldn’t be receiving these significant new powers without the referendum, so it was hardly putting Scotland ‘on pause’.

    If the London parties promises meant something, then the referendum was obviously well worth it.

    Perhaps we should have another soon to get even more powers..

  25. Chitterinlicht says:

    This is all a side show to the magnificent Dame Jackie Bird CBE who is celebrating 25 years at helm of BBC Scotland,sorry, BBC Britain this week. It is all she ever wanted to do since she was a wee lassie.

    (i only switched it (bbc) on to hear Gordon Strachans view on North Britain 2-2 draw with Poland -ears still bleeding).

  26. Kenny says:

    A staggering 2% of the entire population joining the SNP? Yes, I bet this appalling excuse for a politician would like to put the last few months on “pause”.

    I am very glad to have Nicola take over, it is great to be able to show videos of her talking to foreign friends and say that this is the leader of our country. A very great difference to the pudding-faced Cameron or, shudder, Farange. A consumate professional, Nicola is as sharp as a knife and her left-wing views and constant stabs at Tory injustices and greed will be like a magnet to disenchanted slab voteers.

    As for coronations, contrast Nicola’s warmth and love of her country to the last “coronation” in our nation, Edinburgh 1953, when Frau Battenburg showed up in a raincoat and held the sacred honours of Scotland while also gripping onto a handbag (all she lacked was a headscarf and curlers in her hair).

  27. Murray McCallum says:

    The No Thanks Labservative Alliance will need to preach their form of “heal and unite” to all those they branded Nazis.

    A clear message from the #indyref that remains for me is the principle of #LabourNo. That’s a great voting principle for all future elections.

  28. joe kane says:

    Half of all unemployed UK workers don’t get any dole money now. Evidence that we really are Better Together in the British welfare-less state where the only source of divisiveness in its glorious union is the SNP who need to start healing and uniting.

    See Chart 2: Percentage unemployed not claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance

  29. Les Wilson says:

    Even when Nicola takes over,I guess someone else we know, will be available to help her out if something unforeseen arises!
    She is the right person, at the right time, battle hardened and astute. She will do a great job.

    Labour and Slab in particular now have the MSM with them to try and hoodwink the country again, constant bias again against the SNP. We have now seen this before, but labour have many ghosts waiting to haunt them, their downfall will come in 2015, I for one, can’t wait.

  30. David says:

    Johann Lamont is just ecstatic that she will no longer have to take a weekly drubbing from Alex Salmond.
    With Johann’s daily own goals I’m sure Nicola will continue in the same manner making FMQ’s such an enjoyable experience.

  31. Stoker says:

    A message for wee jimmy jabber, (aka the leader of the red tories),
    Nicola will now be the leader of Scotland’s largest political party AND leader of Scotland’s devolved government.

    YOU, on the other hand, are leader of a dying breed – Scotland’s Red Tories. Run along now, I think your Westminster masters are preparing a new hymn sheet for you and the rest of your cronies.

    PS, You stated that it was a positive step that all 3 main political parties in Scotland will be led by women?
    FFS, delusional or what, have you looked in the mirror recently?
    Besides, you red and blue tories are led by so called men at Westminster.

    Shame on you – lying to and deceiving some of our fellow Scots.
    Scottish Red Tories – Traitors – every last one of you.

  32. Roland Smith says:

    As a loyalist already booked my ticket for her visit to Aberdeen in the Music Hall. Alec and Johann should travel round as well, there is a large fuction area in a phone box they can use for their supporters.

  33. Lesley-Anne says:

    O.K. then come on now admit it, which one of you left the gate of Johnstone’s pen open? 😉 We all know what a hate filled wee imp of an individual he is. Perhaps Johnstone does NOT understand the precept behind the idea of a DEMOCRACY. My Village Idiot understanding is that anyone can stand as a candidate for First Minister as clearly Nicola Sturgeon has done. However, for the information for Mr Johnstone, just because ONE person stands for a position it does NOT mean that others MUST also stand. If no one else stands against Nicola then we still have a democratic election. People still have to physically vote for her. Maybe that is the part he does not understand, people voting of their FREE will FOR someone!

    As far as Lamont and her *ahem* comments go well all I can say is that I’m astonished. No I really am astonished that she was found and dragged to the debating chamber and it is still only Wednesday! 😛

  34. muttley79 says:

    @Andrew Morton

    The other guy is a Tory, also an OAP. I said not to worry as he”ll be dead soon and then we can have another vote.

    Its the way you tell them kid!… 😀 😀

  35. JimnArlene says:

    Still stuck in the same, screwed up unionist, mindset; the pair of them. Not that there’s a mind, to set, among the multicoloured tories.

  36. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

    Lamont has already been rubbished and discounted as dead weight by the Labour leadership at their conference when they wanted Murphy to take over.

    Why would anyone pay the slightest bit of attention to anything Lamont says now that everyone knows the Labour leadership in westminster are going to boot her out on her arse sooner or later. She’s finished. Lamont’s sole purpose now is to fill a seat till Labour in London finally decide on who to replace her with and when she finally goes.

    As to the tory twat Johnstone, remind us which GE Cameron won with a majority and how many tory MPs there are in scotland you absurd little far-right streak of piss.

  37. joe kane says:

    The Scottish red tory scab party was united with the blue tories in claiming there was no threat to our NHS. Dr Eoin Clarke has posted some excellent tweets on the state of the NHS in England today. Here is just one –
    14th October 2014, that is the day the BBC started putting NHS Stories in the Business Section of their Web. Sad day.

  38. muttley79 says:


    It was the same last week when SLAB were girning about the SG not nationalising the railway network. They voted against giving all the powers to Holyrood in the independence referendum. This message has to be rammed home whenever the twats start moaning. The dolts voted against giving us the powers to carry out significant change in Scotland. They cannot be allowed to forget it.

  39. Macart says:

    Lamont and co. caused the social divisions we currently enjoy and have quite consciously set about smearing near half the Scottish electorate. Basically Ms Lamont and British Labour can go ffffff… fly a kite when it comes to healing and reconciliation.

    Johnstone is a nonentity and basically who cares what he says or thinks?

  40. Rigmac7 says:

    It’s all very well and nice of Johann Le Munt to congratulate Nicola on giving the ladies a clean sweep of leadership of the three main parties in Scotland (although I’d perhaps dispute 2 of the 3 on the right to the title “lady”).

    Afraid to say, it won’t be too long before there is only one Lady leading the main party in Scotland. The other two smaller parties in Scotland will be under new leadership in not a very long time at all. Bookies favourites on replacements anyone?

  41. Martin D says:

    Where the Heck has Mr. Johnstone been? Leaders run unopposed often in political parties. It is an indication that no one sees a better candidate for the job. Perfectly within the rights of any party to do so. What have you been smoking Mr. Johnstone?

  42. fred blogger says:
    she spent her whole political life on something, no one has managed to discover what yet.

  43. Kenny says:

    O/T Conversation with Lesley Riddoch tomorrow on Livestream

  44. muttley79 says:


    Lamont and co. caused the social divisions we currently enjoy and have quite consciously set about smearing near half the Scottish electorate. Basically Ms Lamont and British Labour can go ffffff… fly a kite when it comes to healing and reconciliation.

    Johnstone is a nonentity and basically who cares what he says or thinks?

    Come on Macart, you know as well as I do that the divisions are solely down to those thuggish, vile, hateful, separatist/scum/fascist/Nazis, who had the horrendous, despicable, and divisive idea that the nation of Scotland should govern itself. This is a completely unacceptable political aspiration and desire, it is in same league as the Holocaust. Anyone who supported it deserved to be verbally and sometimes physically, attacked relentlessly for the best part of two years. With this crazy idea we brought it all on ourselves. We deserved all the abuse, deceit, lies that came our way.

    I agree with you about Johnstone, nobody pays attention to him.

  45. muttley79 says:


    Got a link for that?

  46. Juteman says:

    I just can’t get out of anger mode.
    Unionist scum, the f*****g lot of them!
    I don’t think i’ll be able to relax until that trougher McGovern is removed from Dundee next May.
    £201,000 on expenses!

  47. BigSteveChisholm says:

    Optional Scotsman reports for 30th October (the morning after the Corn Exchange event) have already been filed.

    Either, if the event has one empty seat –

    Blow for SNP as Sturgeon fails to draw the crowds

    OR, if it sells out –

    Separatist cultists flock to annoint new leader

    “In scenes reminiscent of Nuremberg in 1938… the SNP etczzz… “


    I have high hopes for the Hydro show.

    Darkness. Nervous tension. 12,000 fans holding their collective breath in anticipation, craning to catch a first glimpse of their idol. Suddenly, a single spotlight appears high in the lighting rig. Nicola, towering above the stage straddling two massive Irn Bru crates, wearing a yellow and black SNP catsuit. She hesitates for a second, grins impishly, licks her lips. You can hear a pin drop.

    BANG! As flashpots, flares and exploding eggs light up the auditorium she screams…

    Kick out the JAM, motha****ers….!!!

  48. Lesley-Anne says:

    Just booked our tickets to go see our future First Minister at the Easterbrook Halls in Dumfries on 31st October. I was fortunate to see her there during the referendum campaign and thought it was amazing. I can’t wait to hear what she has to say in a few weeks time. 😀

  49. muttley79 says:


    The SNP must have a decent chance of winning Dundee West next May, no?

  50. A.N.Surgent says:

    OT/ This might interest some Fife Yessers. Organiser is Marie Penman, who spoke at George Square very well. Committed to winning Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath for SNP.

  51. Lenny Hartley says:

    How does one book tickets for Nicola’s tour?, I see several people on here saying they have booked tickets but I cant find anything on the interweb.

    Im up in Glasgow anyway for the RIC conference that day, so hopefully its not clashing, if they have any sense Nicola’s show will be on at night…

  52. heedtracker says:

    Libby Carrell of vote No Graun looking down his or her nose at Scots again. Why Salmond gives that crew of reprobates and hypocrites the time of day I don’t know.

    “When the Guardian asked outgoing first minister Alex Salmond about female leadership at the Scottish TUC conference this morning, he pointed to the latest employment figures showing a record number of women in the Scottish workplace, saying: “We’re moving towards Scandinavian levels of women’s participation in the workforce, so it’s entirely appropriate that we have three female leaders in the Scottish parliament.”

    “But this has not been accompanied by Scandinavian levels of, for example, childcare provision. Childcare was central to the Scottish government’s independence prospectus – one of Sturgeon’s early challenges will be to translate this commitment into the devo-whatever landscape. Likewise, the SNP’s pre-referendum pledges of 40% representation in boardrooms and public bodies need not be put on pause for interminable EVEL (English votes for English laws) negotiations.”

    Another day, another teamGB WTF.

  53. ronnie anderson says:

    Maybe’s JoLa will be opologizing to the People of Scotland at FMQs for the LIES spewing from HER mouth & the BT mob, anytime soon JoLa..

    Alex Johstone isent worthy of our time.

    It realy is sad to see a Political Party in harmony & working together for the people of Scotland,instead of internal fighting & backstabbing to gain hold of the Greasy Pole.

  54. Jamie Arriere says:

    It’s very noticeable that in both the LabourTory statements above, there is not any mention of one issue that the referendum has stood in the way, put on pause, or hindered progress on. If that were the case, Lamont, let’s hear one!

    As far as I recall, John Swinney has got his budget worked out & announced, even with its new duties.

    Instead what we get are ungracious, sneering and condescending ad hominem girns, poisoned by sheer jealousy.

    Why doesn’t Johnstone follow suit and arrange a tour of public toilets for his leader?

  55. Juteman says:

    Here’s hoping! His majority is around 8,000, and that is doable. I intend to get loads of cards printed with his expenses detailed on them, and leave them all over the place nearer the time.

  56. Valerie says:

    @Lenny Hartley, SNP members have received an email today to apply for free tickets. It’s on 2-4pm. Not sure how you get a ticket, except by asking a SNP member to add you on to their number

  57. Betty Boop says:

    @ Juteman

    O/T for the moment. Are you still having problems posting? I find I can no longer post on Explorer (not appearing) and it is running about 10 minutes behind the time of the comments. I am hoping this appears, using Chrome.

    Haven’t a clue what is wrong – more or less cleaned out Explorer but still not working

  58. Lenny Hartley says:

    Thanks Valerie, I am a member which is due for renewal about know, maybe I have slipped through the net as I have not received an email. Will chase up

    thanks again

  59. mogabee says:


    Man, that was excellent. Have you had a preview? 😉

  60. muttley79 says:


    I imagine Dundee West will be a big SNP target. If most of Dundee Yes get behind the SNP candidate then it certainly is winnable. The electoral calculus thinks the SNP will win, but it is really far too early still to know with any degree of accuracy. James Kelly (the good one) thinks that if the SNP get locked out of the TV debates then their vote will decrease, as happened in 2010.

  61. Juteman says:

    Is the Rev aware that some of us are having major problems with posting on the blog?
    I don’t do twitter, so maybe he has discussed it there?

  62. manandboy says:

    I was robbed once. Someone broke into my house and stole some stuff; cash & jewelry mainly. Some of it was valuable while other bits were very important to me as they had huge sentimental value.

    I’m long since over the break-in, but for months afterwards, I was unable to settle. But, of course life goes on and you have to get on with it and so I did just that.
    With the 1.6 million who voted Yes, I really really wanted Indy so bad and I haven’t been able to settle since but life must go on. And yet, I can’t shake off the feeling deep inside that Indy was ‘stolen’ by desperate people who only had eyes for Scotland’s treasures.

    As for people like Johnstone and Lamont, and all their Unionist friends, if they want ‘action, healing and unity’ then let them return the opportunity that they stole from Scotland first.
    And, let them also tell us the truth about their misdeeds during Indy. After that, we might we get round to unity.

    Not that Lamont cares a fig for unity; this is just the usual scripted PR talk penned by her speech writer, designed, in this case, to aid the recovery of Labour in Scotland, a party which is currently hemmorrhaging support. The funeral is expected in May but it must be doubtful if Lamont herself will last that long. But frankly, who cares?

    Meanwhile, and of infinitely more importance, we celebrate Nicola’s promotion to FM. With everyones support, I’m sure she will do a great job in her new role. I wish her every success.

    So, it’s time for the 1.6 million to get on with it. But none of us will do it at Johann Lamont’s pace or because she says so. No, this is the time for standing against the Lamonts and the Johnstones of this world. For independence is rising within each of us and our time is coming when we shall witness the demise of Unionism in this land.

    That will be some funeral – with the Union Jack inside the coffin.

    I’m sure we’ll all feel a lot better then.

  63. Valerie says:

    @Andrew Morton, brave man telling those guys about their vote when there were golf clubs to hand! But then why do people need to jeer if they got what they want?

  64. Proud Cybernat says:

    As so the demonisation of Nicola Sturgeon commences. I wondered how long it would take them. Predictable fuckwits.

  65. Seasick Dave says:


    I’ll second that; well said.

  66. muttley79 says:


    The Guardian is a waste of time in regards to Scottish politics. I noticed its sales in Scotland have declined to just over 10,000, which is dire. Really just the size of a decent sized Scottish town. I post there, but the Scottish politics section has become overrun with demented unionists and Brit nats (it has done for months to be fair). I got this reply to a post today, it kind of sums up the prevailing attitude:

    Then why was the independence referendum campaign so vacuous?

    The ‘Yes’ campaign had no plans, no facts, no answers. No answers on currency, on EU membership, on NATO membership …

    Hopeless emotionalists, no idea of how to run an independent Scotland.

    Ah – other than to increase taxes & give-aways.


    What can you say to that kind of comment? It just sums up the whole sneering, arrogant, don’t forget your place mentality of unionists.

  67. Helena Brown says:

    Sorry if someone has said this before cause I haven’t read all the comments, but I don’t think Ms Lamont even talks to her ahem “supporters” from what I have seen.

  68. Valerie says:

    There’s a meme doing the rounds:

    I like dressing up as dead things at Halloween. This year I’m going as Scottish Labour.

  69. Helena Brown says:

    Well said Manandboy.

  70. AuldA says:

    There is no need to squabble over NS nomination. She’s simply the best.

    After me, of course, but I wasn’t candidate… 😉

  71. Ken500 says:

    Isn’t Johnstone a list MSP. He was appointed.

  72. Kenny says:

    “I like dressing up as dead things at Halloween. This year I’m going as Scottish Labour.”

    Brilliant! Poor La Mont, she is on the wrong side of history. What sort of legacy is she going to leave after she curls up and dies, as we all must: someone who sold out her own nation to a foreign country. And her reward was not even thirty pieces of silver, this is WM politics, she will be ditched as slab leader before you can say “Smurfman”.

  73. manandboy says:

    Juteman, you have my sympathy. I too have problems in posting using my PC and my tablet – lengthy delays – but instant on this laptop, which, alone, permanently holds my username and email address in the boxes above.

    But today I did something that made a difference – apart from make me ashamed – I read Stu’s commenting rules, and then, on my PC, I was able to post instantly.

    If it’s not something in there, you might phone Houston – they’re good at fixing problems – at least they were in the movie.

  74. Now's the Hour says:

    How may seats would twat Johnstone fill at the Hydro? His leader? Her leader? Envy and bile ooze from his every unionist pore. We feel your pain, baby.
    Would love to have been at the Hydro, but out of town. Got one for the Corn Exchange. Looking forward to hearing the future First Minister of our independent nation in full cry.

  75. ronnie anderson says:

    From within the Maddened crowd its no democratic, how comes we dont get tae vote on the election of First Minister of Scotland.

    Yours in disgust
    Nonenticys of Hollyrood.

  76. Lesley-Anne says:

    Lenny Hartley says:

    How does one book tickets for Nicola’s tour?, I see several people on here saying they have booked tickets but I cant find anything on the interweb.

    I understand that everyone who is a member of the SNP will have received an e-mail Lenny. The meetings, of which there are a few, are intended for the mass of new members to attend a major SNP event outside of the annual conference.

    She also announced that she will embark on a tour of Scotland, with a series of major events to rally and engage the tens of thousands of new members who have joined the Scottish National Party since the referendum. Party membership has gone from around 25,000 on referendum day to over 80,000 and rising.

    These events will give new members the opportunity to attend major events at a local level, over and above the Party’s Annual National Conference which will take place in Perth next month – and at which Ms Sturgeon will formally take over as Party Leader.

    You can find a list of locations where Nicola will be speaking here, the event in Dumfries is taking place at 7p.m. I assume some or all of the others will be doing likewise.

  77. No no no..Yes says:

    O/T Nicola Sturgeon Tour
    It is billed as a SNP Roadshow. Here is a copy of the text from her email to members:
    “It is a privilege to have been chosen to succeed Alex Salmond. He’s a hard act to follow but I am determined to lead the SNP – and the country – from strength to strength. Read my full statement from earlier today.

    Now, I’m looking forward to meeting as many of you as possible, on a tour of Scotland that I’ll undertake over the next few weeks.

    I hope you can make it to one of the events. You can even bring along someone who is not yet a member or supporter of the SNP.

    I’ll be delivering a keynote speech to set out my vision for the way forward for the SNP and for Scotland, and I’ll take questions from the audience. Click on the links below to book your FREE tickets.

    The largest event in the series will be a capacity crowd of 12,000 at The SSE Hydro in Glasgow, making it the biggest indoor political gathering held in Scotland – or indeed anywhere in the UK – in recent times”

    She is asking members to “bring along someone who is not yet a member or supporter of the SNP.” Well I guess that’s the GE campaign off to a great start.

  78. Betty Boop says:

    @ manandboy, 6:50pm

    I have never had problems before this last week. At first there was just a long delay in the post appearing, then my name disappeared from the form and I have to type in for every post. That’s on Explorer.

    I started using Chrome and comparing and I had a few problems with Chrome as well, but, for the most part they have been resolved. Annoyingly, I still find my husband’s details in the form and have to change them each time I post despite the fact that he doesn’t use this laptop.

  79. Juteman says:

    @Betty Boop.
    Testing. This post on Chrome at 19,02.

  80. Juteman says:

    Nope. Still a vanished post.

  81. AuldA says:

    @valérie + Lennie Hartley

    I got that mail too.
    Dundee, Aberdeen, Glasgow…
    But Paris, zilch, nada.
    Why is she so excited about those remote cities?
    Why doesn’t she care for the navel of the world?
    Why doesn’t she care for me?…

    PS: Lenny I’ll happily hand my number over to you if you want to attend!

  82. Bob Agassi says:

    I noticed in one of the papers that Nicola hasn’t given up on becoming a Mum, I hope that poison dwarf Lamont doesn’t use this the way she shamefully disrespected the FM in her conference speech. Although now that Nicola will be even busier in her role as FM I don’t know where she will fit in the time for baby making but I wish her the best of luck

  83. Steve Bowers says:

    My but there’s a lot of vitriol bouncing around on here today, I for one am loving it, we are all still burning off energy and disappointment at the result but sooner or later we’re going to have to start recruiting more people from NO for the next round, unfortunately ( as an Aberdeen fan ) I find it difficult to say no surrender so let’s all start doing our best to presenting the no side with more info and hope that it starts to sink in ( personally I had to go away from the country for two and a half weeks to get over it )

  84. Betty Boop says:

    @ Lesley-Anne, 6:56pm

    @ Lenny Hartley

    Re: Nicola Sturgeons tour – the tour is principally, but, not exclusively for new members. Also, members can take someone who is not yet a member of SNP.

    Seems like two tickets maximum per member.

  85. Richard Bruce says:

    @Betty Boop

    This sounds like a security problem on your end. Maybe firewall or anti-virus is unhappy about something. Have you checked your firewall settings? Or anti-virus messages.

    Sometimes they get a false positive and will try to stop you accessing some websites. I’m maybe wrong, but you seem to have problems whatever browser you use, so it’s worth a check.

  86. Juteman says:

    I can see my two posts on the list of latest posts at the top of the page, but they aren’t there when I look for them! 🙂

  87. heraldnomore says:

    The Glasgow gig, being a Saturday, is 2 to4. Bugger, no footie that day, ticket printed.

  88. Helpmaboab says:

    On the twelfth of August I attended Nicola Sturgeon’s public meeting in St. Bryce Kirk, Kirkcaldy. She easily filled the main hall of the largest church in town.

    She spoke with confidence. She was well-informed and good-natured. Some of the audience disagreed with her views but she dealt with their points politely. She wasn’t accompanied by speech-writers or spin-doctors.

    I wondered then if Gordon Brown could have achieved something similar in the heart of his own constituency. I didn’t wonder for long.

  89. Lenny Hartley says:

    Just spoke to a pal who has been a member of the SNP for over 50 years and he never got an email either….

    Bugger them will enjoy myself at the RIC Conference.

  90. SquareHaggis says:

    A dairy farmer?

    Milking it?


  91. Murray McCallum says:

    New British One Nation (but independent Scottish) Labour’s use of the term “Scotland on pause” demonstrates their dislike of the wide public engagement in politics up and down the country.

    They want to get back to “normal” business where Labservative officials tell us what to do and end any notion of serious questioning.

  92. A.N.Surgent says:


    Forget Paris, why is she not appearing in the worlds foremost thriving and vibrant metropolis…Kirkcaldy 🙁

    I have same problem with posting, breaks up the flow of the site
    for me. 🙁

  93. Elliot Bulmer says:

    Alex Johnstone MSP has won four elections, by my reckoning – 1999, 2003, 2007, 2011. Winning a list seat is winning a list seat. One of the best things to come out of the Constitutional Convention process was proportional representation. It what makes it possible for people like Patrick Harvie MSP to win seats too. Its part of what makes Holyrood more than just a miniature clone of Westminster. So let’s not rag on people who happen to be list MSPs, as if they were somehow less legitimate than those who are elected from a constituency. Their presence makes parliament as a whole more representative – and that’s a good thing.

  94. Betty Boop says:

    Test 19:22

  95. yesindyref2 says:

    If Johann Lamont wants to go to one of Nicola Sturgeon’s meetings around Scotland, she can either go as a guest of an SNP member, or join the SNP herself (she’d have to give up Labour membership I think).

    I’m sure she would be welcomed.

  96. ronnie anderson says:

    LoLo,s guise at Hallowene THE GRIM WEEPER

    Am behind her carrying ah SCYTHE oh PUMKIN times oot.

  97. yesindyref2 says:

    Alex Johnstone – who let the dogs out? Who who, who who?

  98. Betty Boop says:

    @Richard Bruce, 7:12pm

    Husband just installed Firefox. It is behind too.
    He is fairly certain it isn’t a virus or anything like that, we have an unbelievable amount of security on our system but he will check.

  99. Stoker says:

    Betty Boop, Juteman and others;
    I’m using Chrome and have had delays on all of my posts, but one, today.
    I joined the site just a few days ago and I’ve been having various delaying problems one minute, then perfectly ok at the next attempt.
    I’m not a computer wiz so couldn’t even begin to venture a guess at what is going on – just thought I’d let you know.

    muttley79 @ 6.41pm:
    Well what do you expect my friend, if you choose to frequent the asylum you can’t very well complain about its inhabitants.

    manandboy @ 6.39pm:
    “That will be some funeral – with the union flag inside the coffin”
    Oh yessum, saturated by the filthy rancid corpse of unionism.

  100. yesindyref2 says:

    joe kane
    It’s 1.6 million YES voters, not 1.4 million, I’ve seen others poosting 1.5 million, now it’s 1.4 million, soon it’ll be 1.2 million, then BT will be saying it’s less than 1 million.

    Before you know it, they’ll be saying nobody voted YES.

  101. Betty Boop says:

    @ Malky, 5:19pm

    Just signed up for the Hydro gig – I wonder if there might be a few more people there than the recent Lib Dem shindig around the corner?

    Well, I have a couple of tickets and you have a ticket, so, yeah, be far more there than the Libdem thingy.

    Bet no one falls asleep either! 🙂

  102. Kenny says:

    @ Helpmaboab says:
    15 October, 2014 at 7:15 pm
    “I wondered then if Gordon Brown could have achieved something similar in the heart of his own constituency. I didn’t wonder for long.”

    If he was offered £100,000, I am sure he could do wonders…

    /gathered here today in North Britain…. I am a humble son of the manse who saved the universe…. British jobs for British workers…..drone drone…. I am no longer a politician…. when I saved the world and ended boom and bust…who’s smirking? you must be a bigot…. wibble, wibble…/

    … and he would probably walk on his hands if offered £150,000.

  103. Flower of Scotland says:

    I haven’t received an email from the SNP about Nicola,s tour! I’ve been a member for ever! Hmm!

    I am also having trouble posting. I have an ipad and don’t have any trouble posting comments on other sites. I have had problems here for a while. My comments don’t appear for at least 10 mins.

    Anyway Stu! Lovely to have you back. It’s not been good without you.

  104. Flower of Scotland says:

    It worked this time, but have had to put my name and email in again.

  105. CameronB Brodie says:

    So I’m not a VIRUS? Oh well, as Tony Blair would say, I suppose I should move on. The nerve.

    As for AJ. What is his purpose?

  106. Macart says:

    @muttley 79

    I can forgive and forget when it comes to the no voter next door sort of thing muttley, but I’ll never forgive or forget the actions of BT and our meeja. Most especially I detest the actions of Labour throughout the whole campaign. The poison they spread and the narrative they deliberately created simply for their own agenda. They pain they were only too willing to inflict on others simply for self interest and prolonging what they consider to be control of their own fiefdom.

    They need to go.

  107. Andy-B says:

    Forget Alex Johnstone, the Tories haven’t a look in, in Scotland, just bitter words, Lamont however knows Labour are in deep trouble, in Scotland. She’s hoping Nicola Sturgeon will somehow, show a more amicable side towards Labour, and thus soften the SNP’s rampant support.

    I don’t see the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon dampening the momentum by doing this.

  108. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Quick test tablet

  109. ronnie anderson says:

    @Betty Boop, testing testing you,s goat me at it noo, ave had the same problem for weeks,ah need tae get Patrician doon tae sort it.

  110. Oui Things says:

    Still talking royal pish I see.

    Someone should tell these wearisome muppets that the cat’s welcome to the chair.

  111. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Immediate response

  112. galamcennalath says:

    The way I look at things is Scotland is currently “on pause” !

    We most certainly weren’t on pause prior to the vote.

    It’s the No vote and the Unionists’ withdrawal from any serious attempt to engage and move forward which has brought everything to a sudden halt!

    Solution? Get back up to speed ‘educating the ignorant’ in preparation for WM2015. If we can get enough people out of the negative UK mindset and believing there is a positive future out there, all the rainbow Tories will become history in Scotland.

  113. cearc says:

    The SNP info at

    Says, ‘…major events to rally and engage the tens of thousands of new members…’

    So maybe that is why old members haven’t had the email.

  114. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Just a quick thought re slow posting.

    Could it be something to do with being signed or to Google + and the connection between Google and WordPress avatar?

  115. cearc says:


    I think it maybe to do with signing in via WordPress.

    I haven’t had the problems but have always signed in directly here as I didn’t have a wordpress account.

    On other sites, where I do sign in via wordpress, I sometimes have similar problems.

  116. Jim Thomson says:

    @Juteman, 7:14pm

    I can see my two posts on the list of latest posts at the top of the page, but they aren’t there when I look for them! 🙂

    I can see your test post at 7:02 on Chrome and the and the next one at 7:03 where you say it has vanished.

    I saw it when I looked on Explorer as well.


  117. manandboy says:

    Let’s face it, with Indy parties exploding with new members
    while the Unionist parties are shrinking like wilting weeds,
    is it any wonder the whole unionist cabal is bricking it,
    or in oldspeak, shittin’ themselves.

    They know their time’s up, but because they’re still
    getting paid, they have to go through the motions – naw,
    bricking it is a different thing – with their faces trippin’ them. Shower of miserable gits.

  118. Robert Louis says:

    For info,

    The SNP gigs.

    The details sent in the E-mail from Nicola;

    It is a privilege to have been chosen to succeed Alex Salmond. He’s a hard act to follow but I am determined to lead the SNP – and the country – from strength to strength. Read my full statement from earlier today.

    Now, I’m looking forward to meeting as many of you as possible, on a tour of Scotland that I’ll undertake over the next few weeks.

    I hope you can make it to one of the events. You can even bring along someone who is not yet a member or supporter of the SNP.

    I’ll be delivering a keynote speech to set out my vision for the way forward for the SNP and for Scotland, and I’ll take questions from the audience. Click on the links below to book your FREE tickets.

    The largest event in the series will be a capacity crowd of 12,000 at The SSE Hydro in Glasgow, making it the biggest indoor political gathering held in Scotland – or indeed anywhere in the UK – in recent times.

    Wednesday 29 October, Corn Exchange

    Friday 31 October, Easterbrook Hall

    Friday 7 November, Caird Hall

    Monday 10 November, Eden Court Theatre

    Saturday 22 November, The SSE Hydro

    Sunday 7 December, Music Hall

    In addition, on Tuesday 11 November, I’ll take part in an online interview and Facebook Q&A session for new members in rural and remote parts of Scotland.

    I do hope to see you on my tour. Tickets are limited, so please book today.

    I am a long standing member, but fortunately I know a new member, so am already booked for Glasgow SSE Hydro (political gig of the century) on 22nd Nov, as each member can have two tickets. There is still time to join the SNP, if you haven’t done so already, but tickets are going fast.

    Maybe the SNP will open it out to long term members too, otherwise you might need to register yer dug or something as a new member, to get a ticket.

    The one at Caird hall Dundee should be pretty good too.

  119. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Stoker,Welcome to the site,we,ve put up with much worce than some posts disapearing wait to the DDOS attack & dont mind Muttley 79 comment,we,re no awe loony tunes ( much )sanity does resume in time,oh ma clocks stopped.

  120. AuldA says:

    @ A.N.Surgent:

    Pfff… I decide to join the SNP hoping that N.S. will eventually come over here, hold a personal meeting and shop at Hermes or Dior before turning back. But no, she just totally ignores me. I feel despondent and derelict. Why is the HQ of the SNP in Scotland and not in Paris?

    This is a HUGE letdown. So huge I might consider moving in Scotland to seek solace.

    Your tablet is an iconoclast. It breaks your portrait. I assure you look better without.

    @Flower of Scotland:
    I have an ipad […]

    Pffff… Apple hardware is unreliable. Ditch your Apple gizmo. Get a Mac.


  121. Husker says:

    Was reading a copy of the Metro paper that was lying about in at work. Not sure how old it was.

    In the comments section, it was fully of sneery comments about the referendum being over and given the result, all argument about independence should stop altogether from now to eternity. The tone was No speak no full stop.

    I’m not sure if I should be worried or dismissive of such an attitude. We are supposedly living in a democracy and if a line of political thought does not win, it should be suppressed? I don’t know of it is simply ignorance or a fascistic undercurrent that is forming in our society but simply put, the argument wasn’t won this time but that doesn’t mean the argument can’t be put again.

    It seems the same attitude is present in some unionist political circles. As mentioned by other posters, this attitude is just going to act as a recruiting Sargent for the independence campaign especially as the ‘Vow’ they had made is not going to be kept.

  122. Betty Boop says:

    @ Ronnie Anderson, 7:55pm

    @Betty Boop, testing testing you,s goat me at it noo, ave had the same problem for weeks,ah need tae get Patrician doon tae sort it

    Jings, Ronnie, Did I catch a virus when I got my Ronnie Hug on Sunday? 🙁

    Only kidding! This has been going on for over a week now and it seems to be catching considering all the folk reporting problems – must have something to do with the website.

  123. muttley79 says:

    @ronnie anderson

    Stoker,Welcome to the site,we,ve put up with much worce than some posts disapearing wait to the DDOS attack & dont mind Muttley 79 comment,we,re no awe loony tunes ( much )sanity does resume in time,oh ma clocks stopped.

    Eh? Explain yourself sir?

  124. liz says:

    The MSM/BBC made up the rules about who could attend the debates. Apparently it was on the possibility of a PM coming from the parties debating.

    This was to deliberately exclude the SNP and Plaid Cymru as this would have given these parties too much exposure.

    It is anti-democratic, but that’s the point.
    It’s to make them appear 2nd rate.
    I don’t know how we get round it but there must be some EU rule that can be evoked

  125. Robert Louis says:

    Just want to agree with what others have said re educating people. This is a real priority. In the ref campaign, I was amazed at the number of people who did not understand how the revenue from oil works, in that they thought it belonged to the oil companies, so nobody could get the money. They had no idea that the revenue comes from TAX on the oil.

    Things like that really need addressed. Political leaders need to play their part as well, by ALWAYS referring to the ‘NHS’, as the SCOTTISH NHS, or even better, the SCOTTISH HEALTH SERVICE, to make it clear it is not the English NHS, and to make the point of them being entirely separate bodies.

    Other things too that people need educated on, which were covered in the wee blue book, but maybe need to be done again, to pass on to a wider audience.

    It would be great to have a single easy to understand article about the oil, explaining how the revenue is taken by London, how the bulk of the oil is in Scottish waters, and highlighting how Norway has done well from an oil fund.

    There is a real lack of knowledge amongst Scots as to some very important issues about Scotland, for exmaple ‘the crown estates’, or even fracking, mainly down to the piss poor and biased broadcasters talking about everything from a London point of view all the time.

  126. Kenny says:

    I suggest reading the most succinct dismantling of another “red tories – good, blue tories – bad” establishment mouthpiece, Polly Toynbee, on Craig Murray’s blog:

  127. Morag says:

    I’ve been in the SNP since 1992, and I got the email from Nicola. It’s timed as arriving in my inbox at 12.27.

    What I don’t have is a ticket for the Corn Exchange event, as I discovered on trying to book that it’s already sold out. Bugger. The venue seems to have a capacity of 1,500.

    I’ve booked for the Glasgow one to make sure of getting in somewhere. I suppose if I find I can’t make it on the day it will be possible to cancel the reservation and make way for someone else.

    By the way, the instructions with the tickets say you have to bring your SNP membership card with you. Or presumably you won’t get in (unless you’re a guest of a member and I think it’s one guest per member).

  128. cearc says:

    Saw an excellent windae today. Main road into Dingwall, big letters covering all of the windae and presumably updated daily,


    Or very similar words.

    Hat off to the windae owner.

  129. HandandShrimp says:


    The membership card thing might be tricky. I think SNP central is struggling to get those out to the 55,000 plus new members. I got the email though and I have only been a member for 10 days or so (no card or membership number though)

  130. Brian Powell says:

    What we are witnessing is the disintegration of Labour with their continuous use of tactics.

    The personalisation of attacks and absence of argument is ultimately self destructive. When these tactics are used nobody remains immune and it begins to destroy the user.

    It began with Labour spin doctors and the mutual character smearing of Blair and Brown. Now they can’t stop and it is rotting Labour from the inside.

    As with the BBC; it might eventually need to ask the public to speak up for it to protect it from Government, but fewer and fewer will stand by it.

    Labour thought it had won, but when it found its tactics failed is now looking to get help from or even take over the energy of the Yes alliance.

    That’s not available. Labour may still have numbers from desperate and bewildered voters, but it won’t have the support.

  131. Betty Boop says:

    @ Husker, 8:21pm

    I’m not sure if I should be worried or dismissive of such an attitude. We are supposedly living in a democracy and if a line of political thought does not win, it should be suppressed?

    What would happen to the Scottish Football Team with that attitude? It would have sunk without trace by now.

    Actually, it seems to be becoming the norm to close down argument/protest/campaigning, whatever if it doesn’t agree with the State. Then there is the spectacle of David Cameron in the HOC abusing, ignoring or being dismissive of MPs like Dennis Skinner or anyone at all from the SNP. Jackie Bird when she interviewed the First Minister, was disgracefully disrespectful; her behaviour would have been outrageous no matter who she was interviewing.

    All of this slips into the public psyche. Power, it is all about retaining power.

  132. HaggisTrap says:


    I think this topic on Barnett Exempt project will interest you.

    Worthy of a little investigation ?

    The first time I have seen a full list of projects.


  133. cearc says:

    Robert Louis,

    Absolutely agree. It was truly astonishing to discover how few people knew that the SHS is and always has been an entirely seperate body from the english NHS.

    Also we need to stop talking about ‘North Sea Oil’ when most of the newest fields coming up are west of Scotland along the Alantic ridge. From Hurricane oil’s drilling in the Faroese basin right down to where they are drilling off Ireland.

    All through the debates I couldn’t believe that nobody was plugging the potential of west coast oil and Clyde basin when there was opportunity every time that oil was mentioned.

  134. AuldA says:

    @Robert Louis:

    The Dundee’s venue is already full. I pretended to book a ticket for it and got into the ‘Waiting list’ (I didn’t validate, I don’t want to snitch one ticket for nothing).

    Education is the gist, the crux, the pith, the cornerstone, the nub of democracy.
    (Sometimes thesaurus ARE useful :))

  135. Kenny says:

    Ach, quitting arguing over Paris and Kirkcaldy, everybody knows the centre of the universe is…. Paisley!!

  136. Albaman says:

    What’s the reckoning on Alex Salmond returning to Westminster in order to stoke up that fire, in order that “thier” feet really feel the heat?.

  137. Natasha says:

    Re tickets for the tour! All five of our family joined the SNP in the past few weeks, the LAST being my daughter Laura. She is the ONLY one of us to have had an email from Nicola about the tour! So she has two tickets, but will need to speak nicely to one of us to transport her.

    Having said that, all five of us joined up on the same email address, for various complicated reasons, so I’m wondering if they just send one message per email address (although they managed to send each of us a separate one about our direct debits – got their priorities straight there, then!)

    @cearc 8.30pm I think it’s a bit mean to make comments about windaes in front of Stu . . .

    Thank God you’re back, Stu, the place was going to hell in a handbasket without you. 🙂

  138. AuldA says:


    Err… The center of the Paisleyverse, you mean? 😉

    Kirkcaldy. Strange name. ‘Kirk’, if I’m not mistaken, is Old Norse for ‘church’ but ‘caldy’? Cold church? Auld church?

  139. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Betty Boop, had a look at wordpress noo am nae IT geek but somthing about cross_domain cookie,s & security protection,ur you insinuating am gien oot free virus,s wie ma hugs Jolo nolikey thats somthing fur nothing arena.

  140. liz says:

    I joined the SNP a couple of weeks ago and I don’t have my membership card yet but if you need the number they will sent it to you.

    @Albaman – I thought that about AS as well. What a laugh if that came about

  141. Morag says:

    HandandShrimp, the tickets (and I think the email) say the cards will be sent out in plenty of time so not to worry.

    I think I’ve got about three of the damn things, accumulated over the years. Maybe I should put the spare ones on eBay!

  142. Chic McGregor says:

    “It’s 1.6 million YES voters, not 1.4 million, I’ve seen others poosting 1.5 million, now it’s 1.4 million, soon it’ll be 1.2 million, then BT will be saying it’s less than 1 million.

    Before you know it, they’ll be saying nobody voted YES.”

    And just because they always do it to us.

    The No vote was a good bit less than half of the electorate and only about 37% of the population.

  143. yesindyref2 says:

    Scotsmand – Carwyn Jones wanting to get his hands on our oil revenues by abolishing Barnett “‘Stop talking about devolution’ urges Welsh FM”. He already got his hands on the convergence uplift due Scotland last year, but wants more. Then who can blame him, he’s Welsh and they’ve been scewed rotten even longer than us. If the UK state lets him screw us rotten in turn, it’s a case of be screwed and screw someone else.

    Post there and get near instant downvotes by the scumbags there, ah well, not something I do very often, I don’t like the smell of decaying waste products 🙂

  144. Chic McGregor says:

    “What’s the reckoning on Alex Salmond returning to Westminster in order to stoke up that fire, in order that “thier” feet really feel the heat?.”

    Good point. Maybe even a swap with Angus? And if there is a majority of SNP MPs the leader of the Commons party would almost rival Holyrood to an extent, although of course Nicola would still be leader over all.

  145. yesindyref2 says:

    Thanks for that, I booked up Glasgow just in case it got full too.

  146. Morag says:

    I’d be surprised if Alex wanted another term in Westminster – not so much at his age as at Moira’s age. Unless he became like Broon, and didn’t go very often, which wouldn’t go down well. Moira deserves to have her husband around now, especially after all she’s done for him and the SNP.

    Also, the SNP is doing OK for Big Beasts at WM these days. Unless there was some arrangement such as Chic suggests, he’d be treading on Robertson’s toes. Would be for the first year anyway.

  147. handclapping says:

    Nothing to do with Kirk; most likely it was Cair Calad in meaning having a different law || of the hard (man or landing)||place. This interpretation is supported by the nearest available high place being Dunnikier or Dun in Cair or stronghold place of the Cair.

    Cair was often used for the bands who took over Roman forts e.g. Cair Lyon the Welsh fortress or Cair Almond the Roman victualling station at the mouth of the Almond now known as Cramond. The only other Cair -> Kirk I can think of is Kirkintilloch

  148. SquareHaggis says:

    Hi all.
    Regarding problems with posts.
    A little X_Stick told me that if you write your post in notepad, copy it to the clipboard, refresh the page on wings, then paste your text into the site it should appear instantly.
    Not sure if this is true or not but I’m trying it now.


  149. gerry parker says:


    “Education is the gist, the crux, the pith, the cornerstone, the nub of democracy.”
    I’m already talking to the local SNP and Yes campaign looking to start informal monthly meetings on The Wee Blue Book.

    I’ve already started doing some Powerpoint presentations and lesson plans for sessions for new SNP members. If they’re relying on Branch meetings to tap into the enthusiasm of new members, the new members are going to be a wee bit disappointed I think.

    Much like “The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists” was handed about in the shipyards and workplaces of a bygone time to get people aware of how badly the system served them, the Wee Blue Book + a bit of modern technology, could do the same.

  150. Clarinda says:

    Liz – 8.24pm

    Re debates – as Lesley Riddoch emphasised, if there is no outright WM GE leader the SNP may be the balance of power holders (although a horrible thought whether BlueTory or RedTory) therefore shouldn’t the whole UK audience know what the other political parties and their leaders present?

    I can’t help thinking the BBC etc. are at it – who knew – in ramping up as much political rancour as possible by including UKIP and excluding other more representative parties if their Labour chums might gain some advantage by dividing the Tory types.

  151. Bugger (the Panda) says:


    But in Kirkintilloch, there’s nae pubs

  152. Medic1 says:

    I am the enemy who has decided to change sides. Yes, I was a no voter. I believe in the vow leading to home rule.

    However, having listened to all the party conferences I am not totally disillusioned, plus as have worries about the NHS.

    I was very reluctant to put a comment on Wings, as there have been so many vile comments about people like me. It does seem to settled since the days following the referendum, and I assume some of the comments have been modded.

    I was very put off by being called a bastard, a moron, a ("Tractor" - Ed), a ("Quizmaster" - Ed). Such insults do still appear quite regularly, and my stone recommendation if we want to live together as a growing organisation, the the i insults stop and we encourage more like me to switch sides. I have been a life long Labour supporter and I finally destroyed my membership card today.

    It still upsets me to see the ageist comments about the over 65’s. (I’m no where near a senior citizen). Hoping they will die soon etc. there is no room in a modern alliance for ageism, sexism, racism or any animosity amongst our voters whatsoever. We need to be friendly and welcoming if we want to encourage even more to the fold.


  153. ronnie anderson says:

    @Natasha, ah dont think Cearc meant to rub it into Stu she no like that,weil leave the rubbin tae the winda cleaner.

    STU,is your place secure ie burgler alarms, the last thing we need is WOS to go down. We’re here for You if You need security installed.

  154. Graeme Doig says:

    ‘Healing and unity’ is it.

    Anyone told JL that can only come about after any lying and cheating have been admitted and a bit of honesty indulged in.

    Over to you JL … JL? … na didnae think so!

  155. yesindyref2 says:

    I doubt Salmond would want to go either, in fact I think I saw him report he wasn’t standing for Gordon. I could actually see him staying in Holyrood, but as a backbencher. I doubt the lack of “status” would worry him, and it could be fun.

    As for Westminster, if the SNP get even 20 seats, it could be a lot more, and hold the balance of “power”. I daresay even the pathetic disgusting Speakers would treat the SNP with the respect due to them, let alone whatever colour of deep blue Government needed their votes.

  156. SquareHaggis says:

    Nope, that took 12 minutes to show up!

  157. A.N.Surgent says:


    Cair Chaladain-Kirkcaldy. Nobody really knows what it means, cair can be a fort,enclosure or even a chair. As for chaladain, who knows. Local name is the Lang Toun.

  158. handclapping says:

    @Bugger (the Panda)
    Like I said it means a place with a different law 😀

    The real downer of all these new members of the parties is you cannae have the branch meetings in the backroom of the pub anymore 🙁

  159. Graeme Doig says:

    Re tickets for NS.

    Edinburgh and Dundee already sold out.

  160. Boorach says:

    @ Robert Louis

    Couldn’t agree more about the SHS v NHS leaflet but would broaden it out much further.

    We need a site along the lines of ‘Poster Boy’ with a host of leaflets in A4 size covering all of the subjects that the general public needs educating in; TV licence avoidance, Pensions, Defence, Borders etc., etc.

    Others could be added on an as pertinent basis depending on the Topic of the day.

    With a resource like this we would have a go to place with a ready source of ammunition for street stalls, leafleting etc. and be able to keep the Yes movement at tne forefront of the public’s mind.

    Have tried writing my own but to be quite frank even I wouldn’t read the result if it had been handed to me on the street..

  161. Boorach says:

    Robert Louis

    Apologies, should have been A5 size… easier to tuck into pockets/bags..

  162. Bugger (the Panda) says:


    Find a local brewery.

  163. John says:

    @gerry parker

    Great idea. Please share the results. Thank you.

  164. Lenny Hartley says:

    Thanks to everybody who helped with the NS tickets, got somebody to email me the link and made the booking with that. It would appear the SNP membership database is not 100% accurate when it comes to members email addresses.

    Anyway what a day Nov 22nd will be, RIC Conference and
    NS on the same afternoon, cant wait 🙂

    Seen mention of another WOS night in Glasgow, what about Nov 22nd or should I be going off topic and catching up there 🙂

  165. neilthebruce says:

    I for one would welcome alex johnstone and johann lamont touring the country, so I could join with the massive crowds cheering them on.

    I wonder if alex and johann are willing to put that to the test?

    Somehow I doubt it.

    It would more than likely be a rerun of jim (i am the eggman) murphy and his 100 towns etc.

    I have seen a lot of statements about “moving on” and “healing” recently, I will only start to heal and move on when these things are removed from public life.

    Roll on May 2015.

  166. Natasha says:

    @yesindyref2 & Morag

    It’s suddenly occurred to me that our problem in May 2015 might not be one of insufficient votes to win lots of seats for the SNP – no, it’s more likely to be finding sufficient masochists willing to be elected in order to spend any time at Westmonster. After all, would you want to go there? I certainly wouldn’t! 🙂

  167. Ally says:

    Aberdeen now full too!

    they should have charged 50p / £1 or something(for charity)to deter blaggers.

    I notice too that the Hydro event in Glasgow is on the same day as the RIC conference on the same compound!

    Glasgow will be mobbed that day!!!

  168. Dr JM Mackintosh says:

    I feel sorry for Angus Brendan MacNeil – he has to put up with this crap day in and day out. I remember the stupid question quip by Cameron a few years ago – just disgraceful.

    I certainly could not cope with it so you can understand why Eric Joyce had a go at some of these Tories after a few beers in the Common bar.

    However, it may be better if Angus has another 30 to 40 Yes minded MPs to back him up after next May.

  169. Stoker says:

    @8.17pm – Cheers, Ronnie.

    @9.20pm – Clarinda, its a firm belief of mine that the whole situation is very deliberate – a diversionary tactic.
    All Scottish football fans witnessed the exact same tactics during the whole Rangers debacle, and still do – and that includes the Rangers fans also – when the real issues and questions were being deliberately buried and replaced with other articles of complete irrelevance but those articles were presented in such a way as to create false controversy.
    The Scotsman was, and is, extremely bad for it but it didn’t matter to them, exposing the truth was never their priority,
    why should it be, they had the most popular and successful football comments section out of all the so called Scottish papers. Not very nice but true.

    Same goes here, all this UKIP/TV Debate nonsense was deliberately engineered by the BBC and its political controllers
    in order to sidetrack us all away from the referendum fire that
    we would be spitting.

    Same with that farce at Westminster, “the devolution debate”,
    i didn’t watch any of it but i got enough info on this site as to how it went. And it went EXACTLY as i thought it would, that
    they would treat the topic with contempt and pompous arrogance.
    Its their superiority complex and their idea of starting the
    negotiations at rock bottom, to counter the high demands of us pesky Jocks – they just can’t help themselves. And the absence
    of the 3 Amigos was also very deliberate, it sent out a clear
    message, from their perspective, that they were in charge and
    things would be done when they decide, and not before it.

    Once again, not very nice but true – divert and delay.

  170. Jamie Arriere says:

    I thought Kirkcaldy was derived from Celi De (anglicised to Culdee meaning client/companion of God), who were medieval monks found in Ireland, Scotland & England, who appeared after the Ionan monks were expelled.

    They were thought to have had a presence at St Andrews, and the monastery on St Serf’s isle on Loch Leven – so it’s likely there may have been a settlement at Kirkcaldy.

    I suppose archaeology might eventually prove this or not, but the mix of Scots & Gaelic in the name is a sign of sustained presence

  171. yesindyref2 says:

    It takes a hardy breed of SNP MP to go there and suffer the constant abuse from 644 Westminster MPs, the Speaker and dpeuty speakers, including the other 53 Scottish MPs who should know better. I can’t watch it on Parliament channel any more, it makes me mad.

    I think I’d say that too if I was staunch Labour and Unionist, it’s just a disgusting melee of sheer donkey braying ignorance and hateful bad manners.

    But if there are 46 SNP MPs or a mix including other pro-Indy MPs, then there’s strength in numbers!

  172. Midgehunter says:

    @ Robert Louis

    Re your comment about educating folk.

    I’ve had the same experience with my large family in Scotland, the lack of knowledge about the most basic things is sometimes staggering. Scot.-NHS. pensions, oil etc., Terra incognita.

    The WBB was just what we needed at the right moment in the campaign and did the job very well. It was however expensive and a logistical nightmare for the bunch of Wingers.

    I’ve been trying to come up with something simple, cost effective and logistically easy to distribute.

    My suggestion would be to create a series of topics/themes in A4 formate which could then be collected in something like a Leitz ring binder. Taking the WBB apart and re-arranging it it in another form…!

    E.g. a topic could be the Scottish NHS with a brief history of what it is, how it works and the politics of its use in Scotland. Depending on the complexity of the subject this could be spread over 2-6 pages.
    With a good standard design to make it likeable and readable of course.

    The topic would then be stored as a Pdf for downloading and is printable at home or at a printers with locally needed print runs. (Like the WBB) You could laminate the pages for use at YES/Wings stalls or other events or simply staple them for general distribution.

    Visit an OAP and take a pensions topic with you

    The print runs would be very cheap to produce and transport. How many WBBs did you get in a box? and how many A4 pages would fit in..! No binding problems. Easier logistics.

    Easy to create, each/any topic could have a differnt author.
    Easy to edit and keep up-to-date, old out – new in.
    Easy to print and distribute.
    Easy logistics.
    Easy for people to store.

    There are no time limits, it’s always useable.

    The list of topics is endless.

    AND, the topics can be stored on WINGS as a databank. 🙂

  173. castle hills chavie says:

    Sorry guys, but haven’t read any of the thread yet.

    But, if you click on the Rev’s link to Alex Johnstone at wiki, it says that:

    “He has served as chief gimp…for the British Conservative party”

    Okay who’s playing silly buggers. LOL.

  174. yesindyref2 says:

    I got two tickets for Glasgow in case my son in Dundee is too late and wants to come across for a pint or two, but chances are he’ll be working so I’d have a spare ticket. Won’t know till the day though, so my suggestion if someone’s up for it, is to have someone by a designated entrance with a wings banner or something, acting as a ticket exchange!

    I’ll probably be using my shiny bus pass, so up for a pint or two later in the city centre, coontin house or whatever within stagger of the bus station.

  175. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Winning a list seat is winning a list seat”

    Sorry, I just can’t agree. ALEX JOHNSTONE didn’t win that list seat. The CONSERVATIVES won it, and chose to give it to him, which isn’t the same thing in the context being discussed.

  176. yesindyref2 says:

    I’d definitely agree with single sheet leaflets on a per topic basis, short and to the point, but with references for anyone wanting to verify the information or read up more on it. Kind of like the online “do you want to read more …”. A4 is easy, A5 is probably better. People (like me) have very short attention spans, the eyes glaze over, the hand jerks, and next thing you know, it’s in the (recycling) bin.

    My NO-voting daughter reckoned the most effective thing was the destination ticket of BT, very early on – an idea stolen from the SNP apparently.

  177. Flower of Scotland says:

    Thanks folks for the info about Nicola,s meetings. The SNP definitely have my email as they contacted me a few times before.

    Listening to Scotland Tonight, Nicola Sturgeon seems to be up high in most peoples estimation.

  178. Lenny Hartley says:


    Sign up for the RIC Conference at the nearby Clyde Auditorium with break out rooms at the Science Centre, could be a politically packed day 🙂

    Think there is about 500 tickets left for the RIC

  179. Doug Daniel says:

    Morag: “Also, the SNP is doing OK for Big Beasts at WM these days. Unless there was some arrangement such as Chic suggests, he’d be treading on Robertson’s toes. Would be for the first year anyway.”

    Aye, but then on the other hand, if he stays in Holyrood he risks casting a permanent shadow over Nicola. It’s a tough enough job being First Minister without having the longest-serving, most popular First Minister ever sitting a few rows behind you every day for comparison. The likes of Johann will be forever trying to play it up. The job of trying to steer a different path becomes more difficult when your predecessor is there.

    If it came to a choice between treading on Angus’ toes or treading on Nicola’s toes, it’s a no-brainer. But as you say, Moira will doubtless have a big say in what he does next. And of course, their relationship is the polar opposite of the likes of Blair and Brown’s was.

  180. Morag says:

    Simon, what were your worries about the NHS with a Yes vote?

    I’m now absolutely terrified for the future of NHS Scotland after the No vote. I look at what’s happening to the NHS in England and I can’t see how we can avoid that now. Even if the SNP manage to juggle the numbers for a few more years, when they eventually lose an election, and all governments do, Labour will gleefully privatise it for all they’re worth.

    I’m not getting any younger, and I dread needing medical treatment and not being able to afford it. Just as I dread needing help and not being able to afford it.

  181. Onwards says:

    Also we need to stop talking about ‘North Sea Oil’ when most of the newest fields coming up are west of Scotland along the Alantic ridge..

    Yes, seems it is easier to simply talk of ‘Scottish Oil’

    Also agree with the comment earlier about ignorance on oil revenues.
    The amount of people that thought the oil companies own the oil was widespread.

    Most people don’t know the size of Norway’s oil fund, or how this compares to Scotland’ s budget for example.

    To be honest if you asked 100 people in the street, I reckon less than half could tell you Scotland’s population compared to England’s. Or the number of Scottish MP’s in Westminster.

    You need big simple clear messages for the general public who don’t take much interest in politics.

    “Scotland’s future in Scotland’s hands” was brilliant.

    Unfortunately this is also where the currency issue really hurt the YES vote.

    It was just too hard to easily explain why politicians were bluffing.

  182. Roughian says:

    Just had a lovely dinner (oor hoose) with neighbours. One of these neighbours is Douglas Carswell’s cousin, purely in the blood. Prawn and crayfish cocktail, roast lamb with, garlic, rosemary, red currant and mint sauce, roast tatties, strawberry meringue roulade. All home cooked. Carswell’s relations(they know we’re a yes household) brought 2 bottles of Carmenere 120 honouring the 120 patriots who helped lead Chile to independence in 1814. Still not opened will let you know if it’s any good but with that provenance should be great!!!!

  183. RMAC says:

    Simon, its good to see a convert posting here, I’m sure it wasn’t easy. I wouldn’t mind hearing a little bit more of the detail regarding the pivotal events that changed your mind as I suspect there are numerous others that feel the same way you do. If we don’t try to understand the reasons why people voted no, what their fears were etc’ we make it harder for ourselves to counter the negatives and succeed in creating the circumstances that will lead to a majority being prepared to weather the media storm and vote for independence

  184. cearc says:


    No, I don’t mean talk about ‘Scottish Oil’. I mean, very specifically, talk about West Coast oil.

    WMG refer to all of Scotland’s oil as North Sea to obscure the reality of the massive West Coast fields. The 28th. Licensing round this January was always referred to as North Sea.

    despite it including almost all of the sea west of Eilean Siar.

    They relentlessly drivel on about North Sea oil running out without mentioning these massive reserves which are recoverable with current (as used by Hurricane in the Faroese basin) techniques.

    We really need to tell people just how enormously wealthy these reserves can make Scotland. They make the North Sea oil look like a mere puddle.

  185. manandboy says:


    North Sea Oil was discovered around 1970.
    The McCrone Report was commissioned in 1974.

    With Gavin McCrone’s report in their hands, the UK Government realised that North Sea Oil & Gas would provide the UK Treasury & the City of London with a supply of wealth beyond their wildest dreams.

    Westminster also realised that the oil wealth would provide financial security not only for the ruling classes but also for financial industries based in London for up to 50 years.

    The McCrone Report was declared secret and the revenues to the Treasury, as well as all other aspects of North Sea oil & gas were generally kept under wraps. Until 2005 when, even though the McCrone report was made public, the UK media made little of it.

    Meanwhile, in the 1990’s, there was a new development in the form of very serious finds of oil and gas around Shetland and in the Western Margins, stretching from the Faroes all the way down Scotland’s West Coast as far as the marine border with the Republic of Ireland.
    Westminster had a struck it lucky again.

    In addition, new technologies in drilling and recovery meant that oilfields which were considered near the end of their life, suddenly became viable once more. It just seemed to get better and better for Westminster.

    However, the rise of Nationalism in Scotland meant that a Referendum seemed likely, and all of a sudden all the riches flowing into the UK Treasury and elsewhere came under threat. Should Scotland ever become independent, then the trillions of pounds in value that Westminster believed was theirs for the taking would go instead to an independent Scotland. This would mean disaster and ruin for the British Establishment and indeed for the English economy. This would have to be avoided at all costs.

    Then came the banking crisis in 2007/08 which resulted in crippling UK debt. Enough said. But Westminster’s need for the oil wealth only increased with the debt.

    Scotlands vast oilfields, North, East and West Coast now became an even greater ‘must have’ for London.
    Westminster knew that if these massive resources of oil & gas could be secured for the Treasury and for the City, then economic and financial stability and prosperity could be secured for over 125 years, even with its huge debts. What a prize for the ruling classes!

    But, in time the call for a Referendum on Scottish Independence came.
    But Westminster and the City were ready and they had a plan.
    The rest is now history.

    For Westminster, the referendum was simply a means to secure Scotlands’ oil wealth in the ownership of the Westminster & London elite for upwards of a hundred years. That’s why Cameron took
    Devo-Max off the ballot paper.
    Meanwhile the Scots were thinking only of freedom and self-determination, unaware of the magnitude of what the UK Government was about to do.

    With so much at stake for the British Establishment, there was never going to be anything other than a NO result.

    Cameron believes that he has secured 125 years of untold oil & gas wealth for the English ruling classes. He has it in his pocket because the Scottish unionists gave it to him with a 55% No Vote.
    So they say.

    Having secured all this vast wealth at Scotland’s expense,
    no British Government is ever going to hand it back.

    It was never about the count, or ballot papers, or boxes.
    It was only ever about how the British Empire could guarantee its further existence for another 125 years.
    The SNP and the Yes movement never stood a chance. Don’t be distracted by any other consideration.

    The next time Scotland decides that it wants its Independence it’s going to have to find a way of taking it.
    For Westminster will NEVER HAND IT OVER and there will NEVER be another agreed Referendum.

    We’ve got the BBC, Alistair Darling and Gordon Brown and the rest of the Scottish Unionist Establishment to thank for that.

    Lamont wants healing and unity. As if.

  186. Kenny says:

    Simon, welcome to us. You are a Scot and you are entitled to your opinion, like every other person in this land. And we will defend your right to have your own opinion and voice.

    People are angry — and rightfully angry — at the constant stream of lies that were told to almost every group of citizens. These lies were tailor made to fit every group. A pensioner? Your pension will not be paid after independence? A Pole? Scotland will be thrown out the EU and you will have to return home. A bank employee? Your business will move south and you will be unemployed. A young person? You will have to pay more for text messages (!). And so on….

    The whole NO campaign was not just built on negativity; it was built on lies, lies and more lies. What sort of behaviour is that for a politician to engage in? Gordon Brown, ex-PM, telling sick people they could not get transplants come a YES vote? Despicable! People get angry when they learn of falsities. And this campaign of lies ended up beating our plans to create a better, safer society for all and turning a 53% poll lead into a 45% loss. So you must forgive people for being angry. It is like what they say after a football match: it’s all over bar the shouting. This was like a football match when the goalposts were moved in the last 15 minutes and the referee and linesmen persistently said black was white and offside was oneside. So, understandably, there has been some shouting going on…

    Many in the YES camp were exuberant, some may have been wildly optimistic about building utopia in Scotland (that will not happen, all countries have problems). But, as far as I know, not ONE SINGLE LIE was told by an official YES campaigner, whether they were part of RIC or BfS.

    The desire for independence is like an infection, a bug. Once it bites you, it never leaves you. You may soon want to start converting others. Congratulations on seeing that the Labour Party IS the Tory Party. They are effectively Siamese twins. It will be very helpful for us if you post your thoughts and previous beliefs here on a number of issues. It will help us to better understand the NO voters and maybe even better understand yourself. And you can be sure that everything you say here will be staunchly defended by the many serious and committed people who post on here. Have a good night.

  187. Tackety Beets says:

    JL , Scotland on Pause zzzzz , she never noticed the current employment figures .

    Come to think of it she is so busy trying to take swipes @ SNP she doesn’t notice anything.

    And what does she do to unite ? SFA ! Gggrrrrrrrr

  188. cearc says:

    Boorach, Midgehunter,


    I was thinking along the lines of two-sided.

    The front being the ‘tabloid’ headline fact or topic. In large print, so that it can be read by most people without having to grovel about looking for reading glasses.

    The back being the more detailed information with references.

  189. liz says:

    @Lenny Hartley -completely agree. I have copied all the Red Tory ones showing expenses claimed etc -ideal as lots of info in small bites.

    It was the one thing that I didn’t like about the official Yes because there were lots of ‘in your face’ posters available that would have got the message across quickly but were not used.

  190. osakisushi says:

    I suspect I am not alone in wanting to do ‘something’ following the travesty which was the referendum.

    I’ve probably more reason than most to fear for the NHS as I’ve leukemia – one of the user friendly types which will try to kill me every five years or so.

    It results in a very real fear of what will happen in four years time when I next need chemo, then immune system repairs etc.
    Or will it be more cost effective to ignore me ‘cos I will be 60 then. And broke because developing cancer while self employed has been financially disastrous and fear I shall recover fully just in time to be stuffed again!

    I want to do something to assist (and hurry) the process of self determination but damned if I can figure out where to start.

  191. ScottieDog says:

    “Unfortunately this is also where the currency issue really hurt the YES vote.”

    Agreed, and I always said that we would have been best moving towards our own currency and monetary policies.
    The main issue with this of course is that there is a widely held mistaken belief amongst the conventional economists and finance types that the pound is a strong currency.

    The fact is it’s just like all other fiat currency which has been issued to obllivion by private banks. At least now this exponential currency creation is being more exposed in the mainstream by the likes of martin wolf of the FT.

    Still I hear people trumpet about how the unlike other economies in the G7 the UK economy is growing. What we are actually growing is the level of private debt. An economy built on a Ponzi scheme. Very worrying indeed especially when jo public picks up the pieces.

  192. Patrician says:

    test post: 23:59

  193. Patrician says:

    Previous test using Opera appeared instantly

    test 2: 00:04 using Chromium

  194. Capella says:

    Just went online to book tickets for Nicola’s tour date in Aberdeen. It’s fully booked. In a day! That must be a first for a political event?

  195. Patrician says:

    Previous test using Chromium appeared instantly

    test 3: 00:07 using Firefox

  196. Morag says:

    There’s a bit of a disconnect in terms of pensioner security. People who retired 5 or 6 years ago got to retire at the age they had always expected to retire at. Annuity rates had not at that time fallen through the floor, so they were able to secure a good guaranteed income if they had managed to build up a pension pot. More good occupational pension schemes were still in operation, and a lot of the older ones had index-linked final-salary pensions.

    People just 5 or 6 years older that that are not retiring. Their state pension age has vanished into the future – by a full five years in my case. At the same time annuity and interest rates are derisory, and pension pots that were projected to yield a comfortable income are looking as if they’ll hardly pay the electricity bill. Occupational pensions are also less favourable. None of this encourages confidence in the security and stability of the union of course.

    We’re also hearing threats to remove the winter fuel allowance, the bus pass, free personal care, and to means-test the state pension. Also mutterings about having to pay for a GP appointment and “board and lodging” if we’re admitted to hospital.

    I’m looking at friends only a few years older than I am, who have been quite comfortable in retirement since they were younger than me. I have no idea when I’ll be able to join them, or even if I’ll be able to join them. I’m perfectly comfortable at the moment, while I’m still earning, but when I’m not, what then? With interest rates on the floor, savings only go so far. My mother was nearly 95 when she died. That’s a long time. Lots of people my age and younger are far far worse off, with no hope of being able to accumulate a reasonable pension pot.

    So I wonder if there was a bit of complacency in the over-65s that can be linked to their being in a relatively fortunate demographic. Perhaps the last demographic where a comfortable retirement income was achievable for someone in an ordinary job without millions in savings.

    And to drag this grumble back on topic, if Johann thinks I’m amenable to “healing and uniting” with the people who campaigned to deny me a future that would have brought better prospects, they’ve got another think coming.

  197. Doug Daniel says:

    Currency needs to be nailed, and it needs to be done before we have another referendum. We can’t go into the next one saying we want a currency union again – whether people believed Westminster was lying or not, it was too easy for them to use it to create doubt in people’s minds. It was a hostage to fortune, and took the “don’t scare the horses” strategy a step too far.

    Even if we go into it saying “a short-term currency union would have been preferable, but a Scottish pound pegged to Sterling is hardly putting us at a disadvantage”, or something.

  198. Patrician says:

    Previous test using Firefox appeared instantly.

    Can’t test IE as I use Linux. I still think the issues people are having posting is more about:
    1) issues with your device, especially the storing of cookies. Not only your browser settings will clear out cookies, they can also be cleared out by your security package.

    2) Typing phrases that fall foul of Stuart’s posting rules and filters.

  199. Morag says:

    It’s funny there’s so many people complaining at once all of a sudden though. And yet I’m having zero trouble on three very different and quite separate devices.

  200. K1 says:

    @Medic1, “I was very put off by being called a bastard, a moron, a ("Tractor" - Ed), a ("Quizmaster" - Ed). Such insults do still appear quite regularly, and my stone recommendation if we want to live together as a growing organisation, the the i insults stop and we encourage more like me to switch sides. I have been a life long Labour supporter and I finally destroyed my membership card today.”

    Don’t take it personally Medic1, we as independence supporters; political party affiliated and non affiliated, have been called, Nazi’s, a ‘virus’, ‘ blood and soil nationalists’, and being described variously as ‘fascists’, ‘communists’ ( go figure), even ‘cultists’ as apparently we’re all mesmerized by oor ‘great leader’, Alicsammin.

    The point is, we have been relentlessly portrayed in the most abhorrent light by our representatives in ruk government, our license fee has aided a compliant and eager organisation (bbc); worldly renowned ( though they engendered that perception too), as ‘impartial’. Who were and still are the mouthpiece for these politicians. In tandem with every newspaper sold in Scotland, during one of the most historic and important debates this country has ever witnessed, about the future for all of us. These outlets, disseminated information and lies , willingly without a balanced representation from the Yes side, and at every turn obfuscated and reduced the debate to personalised attacks, not on the main points, but on anyone who chose to support the proposition that We should be an Independent country.

    They chose this strategy to divide us all. They painted your fellow citizens, family, neighbours et al as being ‘basket cases’, ‘splittists’, ‘speratists’, and a host of other pejorative terms, that had an effect. The effect? To railroad the debate from the salient, intelligent questioning of our current political constitutional set up within the union. That’s all we were doing, asking ourselves a question.

    Those of us who engaged with that simple question, went looking for information. We talked with other people. We went to meetings, we researched the issues. What did the No campaign do? They did all that I mentioned above. They tried to shut the debate down. To maintain their positions, at any cost.

    So, don’t take the name calling as some insult to yourself personally. If you read Wings, thoroughly, you will see that our name calling is a direct and well justified expression of the sense of a true injustice that has befallen Scotland. That includes you and everyone else who voted no.

    If you know someone personally who has called you those names, and they are a yes voter, then maybe you can find it in your heart to understand…now…since you say you have altered your position…how utterly without reserve, heartsick and heartbroken they felt at that result. And of how we were and still are being portrayed and monstered as if We are the ones having a problem reconciling ourselves to the vote. The reality is quite the opposite.

    We have taken note, we have understood and will continue to do so; the how and why of what came to pass. And we are resolved to remain true to our original answer to the proposition; Should Scotland be an Independent country.

    Apparently you now feel the answer is Yes too. So, buckle up bro’….sticks n stones…you ain’t seen nothing yet. This is serious.

  201. Onwards says:

    The problem is we would have the exact same issue with currency if we have another referendum.

    There is no easy answer.

    A Scottish currency pegged to sterling would need large reserves to back it up.

    And the banks would HQ in
    London to cater to the majority of their customers.

    I think the Yes side was trying to avoid this reality through a currency union, but of course the banks were always going to do that anyway.
    And make it a last minute scare story.

    We should have focussed on how energy, tourism, inward investment and other opportunities would have FAR outweighed the possible loss of these finance jobs.

  202. osakisushi says:

    @Doug Daniel

    There’s a massive problem with wanting Scottish Pound linked to Sterling as sterling will collapse following indie.

    This is probably the greatest problem faced by Westminster and they are perfectly aware of it. The PR last week by BoE indicating that following a Yes, vote, their PRIMARY MOTIVE was to ensure Scotlands credit rating was not hurt was a big giveaway. A currency union was always going to happen and, surprise surprise, the politicians were lying.

    Earlier this year, I ran multiple currency models on Sterling if it lost just 10% value and the domino effect England faced was quite dire.

  203. Capella says:

    Re problems posting. I’m using Chrome because it retains my name and email address and posts appear as soon as I click submit (unless I have included a youtube address and forgotten to remove the http://)
    I signed up about January this year and haven’t had any problem in Chrome.
    However, Chrome started freezing and slowing down a month ago so I switched to Firefox. Then my email address and username weren’t retained for this sight but were OK for other WordPress sites. And posts didn’t appear immediately but after long delays.
    So I switched back to Chrome and there is no longer the problem.
    I tried clearing cookies in Firefox, checking autofill options for forms etc. But I really think it is something to do with this particular site. And it’s something that happened some months after I originally signed up.

  204. Kenny says:

    The pensions question is indeed a worry, along with the matters of healthcare and unemployment. I think they are the three main problems facing society today. All Western countries have these difficulties, including the Scandinavian nations to which we aspire, but I am really convinced that in an independent Scotland we would place an absolute priority on pulling together and working as one to overcome these problems.

    No spending on Trident, foreign wars (do you know how much one bomb costs alone?), royal family, unelected House of Lards, WM troughers, no banking subsidies and deals for tax-dodging multinationals…

    Everyone who was part of the YES movement, from our businessmen to our radicals, was convinced of this. I would also hope it will be enshrined in our written constitution.

    Alas, for now that is not possible, so all we can try and do is make the best we can of our limited resources, while our hands are tired…. and slowly move percentage point by percentage point to I-DAY (I for independence, of course).

    This is why it is so important to keep up the campaign. Because these issues of healthcare, pensions and employment must surely also matter, on a very personal leeel, to each and every one of us.

  205. manandboy says:

    A great piece on why Austerity is a bummer for everyone.

    More and more people have come to realise this including the Irish Government and the IMF.

    You’d think Osborne would catch on, but no, he’s got more and more cuts in the pipeline, most of them aimed at the poor and low paid, the sick and the elderly.

    I guess George is not actually doing economics as Chancellor; more like Tory Ideology which says, ‘ why spend money on the poor when the rich can make better use of it; like lend it to the poor and squeeze even more money out of them.

  206. Murray McCallum says:

    I’m not disclosing the time of this test post from google chrome, but it is not 00:29.

  207. Capella says:

    Is there any reason why we can’t set up a Scottish “central bank”? Unofficially. My understanding is that it is legal for Scottish banks to print notes so I don’t see what the problem is with having our own currency.
    We had our own Stock Exchange too until 1973 (after finding oil?) Would it be a good idea to re-establish that?

  208. Kenny says:

    Apologies for spelling mistakes; it’s time for ma bed! On currency, yes, it makes sense to have the pound because of cross-border trade….. but the poster is quite right. The Scottish pound would strengthen against the rUK pound because we are a net exporter. In fact, it was thought back in the 1970s that, if Scotland had been independent, our currency would be the strongest in Europe after the Norwegian kroner, stronger than the Swiss franc!

    In my own view, plans for an independent currency would also put the Treasury’s gas at a peep, that would be one less area where they could spread lies and meddling. Personally, I would prefer to be like Denmark. Have a Scottish kroner (the name would reflect our aspiration towards Norway, Sweden, Denmark!), but let it be tied to the Euro, i.e. we would buy and sell currency to keep an exchange rate close to the Euro, say €1.50 or €2 or whatever.

    The only downside to a Scottish currency, in my view, is that it might get a bit too strong and hurt tourism, foreign trade, especially with England…. but then we could just print a bit more!

    And as Scots are always innovative, I would like to see the first state-launched virtual currency (Scotcoin or Jockcoin!) and, in general, a movement towards e-government like in Estonia.

  209. Kenny says:

    Capella – Scotland was unique as a nation in that, for a very long time, it issued notes without having a central bank. I would very much like to do away with central banking, but in today’s world such actions would quite certainly get us put on the next “axis of evil” list…

  210. Murray McCallum says:

    I would like to see the Scottish Government correctly label and identify existing and future financial oversight, public and private bodies.

    Banks registered in Scotland already print money which are 100% backed by deposits at the Bank of England. This process needs to be audited, monitored and routinely reported within Scotland.

    We have to start making “normal” what already exists.

  211. No no no...Yes says:

    Johann Lamont gives her comments- “help and unite Scotland”,what a cheek she has got,it was Better Together that used terms like nazis, blood and soil nationalists, etc. She and SLAB never helped Scotland by giving the voters an opportunity to scrutinise them at any public meetings- they were too scared as they would get exposed for supporting the Tories.There is no positive case for the Union.
    She and her turncoats never helped Scotland by openly claiming victory over Yes and hugging with the Tories in celebration.

    As far as Alex Johnstone is concerned he is a waste of space and it should have been Ruth Davidson who should been quoted!

    What about poor Willie Rennie,does his opinion not count?
    What about Patrick Harvie?
    What about Jackie Bird, I bet Nicola is looking forward to their first interview.

  212. hetty says:

    Just to get things up to date, in England, free bus passes are not available at 60, you have to wait to 62 or more, and they do not it seems routinely test for bowel cancer at 50, the most common cancer, like they do here in Scotland. Just been to visit family in the North East of England, nae jobs either.
    Some great forward looking and civilised structural changes coming our way with this better together lot eh, brrrrrrr, quite the opposite.

  213. Valerie says:

    Just throwing this out there to see if it gets any legs – if there are a number of Wingers going to the Hydro on 22 Nov. to see NS (I am) is there anything we can do as a group to hand anything worthwhile to that SNP audience?

    I was thinking like little flyers for the Wings site? Not sure if anything political would be welcomed (was thinking those handy expenses details on Glasgow Labour sitting MP’s)

  214. inky Pic says:

    I’m sorry but I don’t think i’ll ever get over oor Johann & her ‘not genetically programmed to make decision’ gag. Nothing she says can ever be taken serious after that one!

  215. K1 says:

    @manandboy 11.46pm, great post, summarises the importance of the ‘oil’ to rUK, and the scuppering mendacity of the unionist mind set. B***ards.

    Re an earlier post, when I archived that Herald article regarding the Labour councillor who resigned from Glasgow cc, and hit the ‘paywall’. You responded that it had worked okay your end. And suggested clearing the cache, I never got around to replying to your offer of assistance with this if required. Way too busy on that thread…but just to say, yes cache clearing usually works for herald, but wasn’t on that occasion and others since. Think it’s only happening when I use the kindle, seems okay on laptop. Thanks for the offer though, very kind. 🙂

  216. manandboy says:

    I need a fresh injection of hope ‘cos I’ve run out.

    I need to know that there is a mechanism
    for obtaining Independence without a referendum
    which I believe we are not ever going to be offered
    by our Imperial masters in London until
    the very last drop of oil has been sent south,
    and that won’t be for another century at least,
    and since I’m already more than half way through my round,
    I can’t wait that long;
    though come to think of it, no one can.

    If 59 SNP MP’s in Westminster isn’t going to be enough to get Indy.
    and if 100 seats in Holyrood isn’t going to be enough
    then it’s down to the EU referendum with England voting out and Scotland voting in, but Cameron won’t let that happen.

    I guess we had our one chance and the no’s blew it.

    It feels like the beginning of a long prison sentence –
    for someone who is innocent.

    Only chance is a re run of IndyRef due to fraud

    or else let the UK have the oil in exchange for Indy.

  217. yesindyref2 says:

    Thanks for your posting, it’s very interesting.

    I’d like to see a lot more posts from NO voters who’ve changed to YES, but also from NO voters who aren’t sure if they’ve done the right thing or not.

    It’s why it’s important for us not to slag off NO voters any more, the referendum is done, we lost. Maybe I’m luckier than most in that I have a NO-voting daughter and it makes not the slightest bit of difference. Strangely enough, she’s still my daughter!

    Oh, and her reasons were completely valid, just making ends meet, worried about the fairly new mortgage going up for one thing, and to be blunt, there was no answer to that, no, really, there wasn’t, and I know that government borrowing rate has little or nothing to do with mortgage rate, it’s mostly the central bank rate (0.5%).

    What didn’t happen was an issue like that tackled head on, and quantified. So for someone paying whatever, £500 per month, what would be the highest it would cost in year 3? Nobody answered that one. Nobody apart from BT with massive exaggeration, who were allowed to conflate higher borrowing rates, lower credit ratings, and come out with wild claims about the extra costs of mortgages.

  218. Kenny says:

    manandboy — how about opinion polls showing constant support comfortably above 50% (say, 55-60%) for indy?

    I think indy may eventually come by default…. Things usually happen in life due to a combination of factors, not just one factor (eg. a single election).

    I am not sure myself how this could play out. But the USSR collapsed because of the economic strain of decades of a planned economy, awakening nationalism on the periphery, the whole glasnost thing and horrible things about the past coming to light, the general abandoning of Communism around the world from Poland to Mongolia….

    So maybe a combination of sudden economic crisis, a whole host of scandals over MPs (expenses, corruption, uncovering of institutional pedophilia), a general pan-European movement for independence in Catalunya, Veneto (loads of others elsewhere, even Okinawa in Japan, Faroe Islands from Denmark), some unexpected black-swan event….. And one day we will wake up and find we are independent!

    I do not really know, these are just abstract thoughts. But just as there is a film called “Six Ways to Sunday” so there are many ways that indy could happen. I think it will happen, but not in a one-off referendum again. I think it will somehow come about almost by default…

  219. Tattie-bogle says:

    O\T Brent crude at $80bbl. When does the pooling and sharing kick in ?

  220. Mealer says:

    Well,it looks like I won’t get a ticket for Dundee.I might go along anyway.Which boozer near the Caird Hall are Yessers likely to go pre and post gig?

  221. Macart says:


    Oh hell yes. An emergency consultative referendum.

    Cast your mind back to the very beginning of the campaign, this was the original format of the referendum just past. The consultative referendum is well within the purview of the Scottish government and wouldn’t require a section thirty to enact.

    The section thirty is preferable in that it is seen as both constitutional parties participant in the outcome. Westminster and Holyrood, but the consultative would purely be run by and for the people of Scotland. It would however require extreme justification to bring about and enforce the outcome.

    Circumstances such as say WM seen to not deliver on the promised outcome of their campaign for instance. The failure to deliver promised significant devolved powers or Scotland voting to stay in the EU whilst rUK votes to exit, powers being stripped from the Scottish parliament or the devolved powers actually proposed being seen to breech or damage the standing union treaty and unduly cause harm or hardship to one partner. That kind of thing.

    In other words a dead certainty over the next two to three years. Westminster has already made headway under all of those scenarios. As I said only a few days ago you simply need to let Westminster be Westminster and they’ll provide the opportunities all by themselves.

  222. davidb says:

    Now I ve read the overnights.

    I started out as a heart yes/ head its daft. I was always going to vote yes. By the end I was campaigning for yes and it was the most obvious good idea to come out of here for a long time.

    Many of the issues were very technical. I learned so much about international interest rates, banking systems, and a host of other things. But there is just no way that people who can be bought with fake tax cuts or who cannot grasp the usury in a wonga loan are going to understand the complexities of globalised interest rates and trade weighted currency valuations. It is the sort of thing that an impartial State broadcaster could have explained in lay terms. But the Ministry of Truth was against us.

    I think the Yes literature was poor in respects like this. It could well have helped win more of those conservatives who voted no if all the ramifications – good and bad – were laid out simply in a punchy easy to read flier. But our own side choosing not to tackle banking and interest issues head on was our fault. Oh, I had a conversation with one elderly voter who raised the interest rate issue and I realised he was a depositor, not a mortgagee. For every borrower a lender exists. For every recipient of welfare a taxpayer. I certainly thought the campaign focused a little more on the takers than the givers. I read the other day that over 60’s own 80% of the wealth in the UK. Perhaps many feared independence would not benefit their main interest – a wealthy old age.

    I grasped early on that it was mostly in rUKs interest for Scotland to have a CU. We lost that crucial message in the fog – first debate – and never managed to reassert it. A good flier hammering that home would have helped us win.

    The WBB was the best campaign tool I had. Privately published, privately produced. Says it all really. We are on our own.

  223. macnakamura says:

    Did Douglas Alexander attend the WM debate?

  224. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    Macnakamura: yes he did.

  225. Tackety Beets says:

    I did not see Douggie A @ WM debate on Mon
    Come to think of it Beaker was not there either ?
    I thought I saw A Begg at the start only.
    Poor show all round !
    There was a poor show / turnout at the start and it fissled out to very few MPs by the end .
    Evil EVEL dominated !

  226. Luigi says:

    The YES campaign was excellent – compare it with the BT shambles! Yes, mistakes were made, but don;t lose sight of how much ground had to be made sup (25% YES in 2013), and we came bloody close this time! The NO vote won in spite of BT. The really encouraging thing was that all age groups showed a trend to YES, even the dreaded 65+ moved from14% to 20%, and the 55+ group went over 40% on the day. This bodes very well for the future. The trend is clear.

    I agree that there is no need to attack NO voters (or underestimate their numbers for conspiracy theories etc). There were many, many NO voters out there – and many of them are nice people.

    Support for independence is a personal journey. Some people arrive at it instantly, others take nearly a lifetime (if at all)! Many NO voters just never completed their personal journey in time, and some were deliberately scared from taking the final step. Of course some are nasty characters, but the majority are just ordinary folk, so let’s not demonise them.

    Let;s focus our anger on the real villains of the piece: The Red Tories,the Daily Record and the BBC.

  227. AuldA says:


    You’re most welcome.

    Nobody really knows what it means, cair can be a fort,enclosure or even a chair. As for chaladain, who knows. Local name is the Lang Toun.

    Nothing to do with Kirk; most likely it was Cair Calad in meaning having a different law || of the hard (man or landing)||place. This interpretation is supported by the nearest available high place being Dunnikier or Dun in Cair or stronghold place of the Cair.

    Isn’t Cair an alteration of (modern Scottish) Cathair, breton Ker (pronounced Kerr), meaning “hamlet” (and maybe, by extension “fortified village”)?

    As for “dun” this is widely attested and well known. Eg. French “Verdun”, famous for the WWI battle, where ‘*Ver’ < ‘*( S )u( P )er, “high, lofty” with regular evolution of initial s and intervocalic p to ø, meaning “the lofty knoll”. See, e.g. Dundee, French Châteaudun, Autun (< Augusto-dunum), etc.

    @Jamie Arrière:

    I thought Kirkcaldy was derived from Celi De (anglicised to Culdee meaning client/companion of God), who were medieval monks found in Ireland, Scotland & England, who appeared after the Ionan monks were expelled.

    In which case, my hypothesis of ‘kirk’ coming from Old Norse ‘kirk’ = ’church’ would hold.
    With ‘De‘ < i.e. '*Deva’, god.

    I have some elements on Gaulish/Celtic toponymy, but to sparse to be satisfactory. I'd also love to get some info on Pictish. If someone can recommend me a book on the subject, I'd gladly welcome it.

  228. john king says:

    Sorry I didn’t reply to both James Caithness and Manandboy yesterday but at work I cant always get access to Wings and when I came home I went to a SNP branch meeting in Cowdenbeath where of the over 500 new SNP supporters nearly a hundred turned up at the meeting last night. 🙂

    James I know your hurting, we all are but turning on people who for what ever reasons voted no does not help us to gain further support, all we do is alienate them, I’m sorry if you were offended at being compared with to a Tory but what other conclusion can be drawn if you purport to inflict Ian Duncan Smithesque punishments on people who may not have had the advantage we have by being able via social media and sites like Wings to see past the lies from the BBC et al,

    If all you ever knew was that the Sun revolved around the Earth and the the Earth was the centre of the universe,
    only to be told it isn’t true and that we are but a minuscule speck in a vast universe , how quickly would you absorb this new and unsettling information and accept it as the new reality?

    James I have no desire to trade insults with you, but we need to remember just how many people are reading this site and as individuals speaking among ourselves WE ARE NOT, there are people like that brave chap medic1 9.30pm who posted here for the first time in spite of being afraid he would be pilloried by us,
    But he did it anyway and that took far more courage to do than it took for us to go and put that X in the YES box.

    Moving on is all we CAN do, and learn from not only our mistakes but from the depth of depravity the msm, BBC, and Westminster will stoop to prevent the democratic will of the people being heard.


    from your response you seemed to suggest I was commenting from the standpoint of a “red tory”
    If you knew me and read my previous posts you would know nothing could be further from the truth, I took against the Labour party on my very first visit to the polls in 1974 when a Labour councillor felt able to abuse me after coming out of the polling station for the very first time to be asked how I voted, for me to reply (quite innocently) that I had vote SNP,

    The disgusting behaviour of that Councillor has remained with me to this day, as he berated me (in front of several people) for being a ("Tractor" - Ed) to my class, and even more so as the son of a miner,

    I never forgot or forgave that man and have never voted for the Labour party and not just because of a personal slight but because of the sense of entitlement those people had to expect unquestioningly that working class people will support them no matter how bad the candidate is or the (poverty) of their policies,

    But I doubt the veracity of the assertion that the EU forced Tony Blair to set up the Scottish parliament because there really is no compelling evidence to support the assertion,

    If that were true why did the EU only pick in the UK?
    why didn’t it insist Spain set up a devolved parliament in Catalonia?

    Sometimes the obvious really is the true answer, the parliament was set up to “kill nationalism stone dead”

    Another poster used the phrase “managed decline” the other day, sorry forgot who posted it and commented that it was a phrase used by one of Thatchers contemporaries,

    The comment was made in 1981 by her chancellor Geoffrey Howe who said
    “We do not want to find ourselves concentrating all the limited cash that may have to be made available into Liverpool and having nothing left for possibly more promising areas such as the West Midlands or, even, the North East.

    “It would be even more regrettable if some of the brighter ideas for renewing economic activity were to be sown only on relatively stony ground on the banks of the Mersey.

    “I cannot help feeling that the option of managed decline is one which we should not forget altogether. We must not expend all our limited resources in trying to make water flow uphill.”

    He acknowledged the suggestion the city could be left to decline was potentially explosive.

    “This is not a term for use, even privately,” he warned Mrs Thatcher.”

    That a minister of the crown should consider the “managed decline” of one of the great cities of the empire
    shows the depths to which the Tories will stoop to destroy opposition to their vicious and inhumane policies,
    and is proof if proof be needed of what Scotland faces when there is nothing left for those people to exploit!

  229. Macart says:

    @Medic 1

    Welcome aboard Simon.

    You’re going to be needed for round two and never let anyone tell you its too late.

    Its never too late. 😉

  230. AuldA says:

    @gerry parker:

    Fantastic work. If I can be of any help (design of the Powerpoint, etc.), please let me know.

    PS: Maybe a question asked before, but is the ‘Wee Blue Book’ named after a similar ‘Little book’ of another color printed and distributed in a big big country several decades ago?

  231. Craig P says:

    Unlike the Labservative leaders in Scotland, the best person for the SNP job, the person the party leader wants, and the person the party wants, are one and the same.

    And as for healing and unity, there cannot be genuine reconciliation until the establishment and their willing helpers can publicly admit their lies, or at the very least, acknowledge the hurt caused to a near majority by the continued loss of sovereignty.

  232. Haggis Hunter says:

    Alex Johnstone is an ersehole.
    I kin his brother cannae stand him either.

  233. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Craig P

    “Truth & Reconciliation Court” on

    live TV

  234. Craig P says:

    Also – the Scottish Government now have 18 months to push devolution to its limits. I hope we get really radical land reform, and a new form of local government taxation (either land value tax or local income tax).

    We also need (maybe not government led but grassroots led) a national programme of education of how propaganda works.

  235. Boorach says:

    @ Davidb

    Totally agree with your assessment of the’Wee Blue Book’ it was (and remains) by far our most potent tool during the campaign.

    In the run-up to the 2015 GE indy related literature will be as rare as hen’s teeth as the parties concentrate on producing their election material.

    We need a library of standard A5 leaflets/fliers covering all the main topics which people expressed fears about and the currency was just one of them. The Barnett Formula, Defence… There’s probably about 20 or so main subjects which could be covered and would need very little amending.

    In addition other subjects could be covered as they arise. With a resource like this could get the message onto the streets within hours/days of something happening.

  236. Bugger (the Panda) says:


    It is, I think, named after a wee red book, which used to be published, at the start of the football season, with all the fixtures and maybe info on all the clubs.

    It was peculiar to Scotland, a sort of footballing fact and reference bible.

  237. Craig P says:

    It occurred to me on the land reform issue that it would be good to limit ownership of land to Scottish residents. They do this in Switzerland and Denmark to some extent. It is illegal in the EU to limit the ownership of assets in this way but Denmark does it because, being a sovereign nation, they have negotiated an opt out. Scotland alas does not have that status.

    However – it is also illegal to charge differential rates to EU students at universities, but, is not illegal to charge different rates to people *from within the same state*. Do you see where I am going with this?

    The Scottish Government could legislate to ban London residents like the Duke of Westminster from owning land in Scotland… unless he moved his primary residence to Scotland… in which case he will get a whacking local income tax bill.

  238. Juteman says:

    ‘Dun’ means fort.

  239. Bugger (the Panda) says:


    On World languages and their derivation we have in our Scottish midst an expert.

    He has his own blog and has had some sadness in his life recently.

    I can recommend his blogs and if you send him a note in a post he will, time available, respond. Trust me, he is very good and a superb witty penman.

    Paul Cavanagh is his name and Wee Ginger Dug is the name of his blog.

    You can link through to him at the top of this page in the blue squared section entitled Scottish Blogs.

    Another Scottish Blog you might like, Tris reads and writes French is, Munguin’s Republic. Again a direct link is available at the top blue squared area.

  240. john king says:

    Boorach @ 8.22

    I said earlier I was at a SNP branch meeting last night at which nearly a hundred people attended
    the chairman asked for a show of hands as to who had a wee blue book the show of hands was almost 100%
    the sense of satisfaction I took from that almost made me forget the pain I was in after falling down the stairs in my house and really hurting my leg and back on my way to the meeting (idiot).

  241. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    @ Morag

    It’s funny there’s so many people complaining at once all of a sudden though. And yet I’m having zero trouble on three very different and quite separate devices.

    Depends on the ADSL line speed on the GCHG connection spur.

  242. galamcennalath says:

    Luigi says:
    YES campaign was excellent – compare it with the BT shambles! Yes, mistakes were made, but don;t lose sight of how much ground had to be made up

    Agree completely. It does annoy me when people complain about one or other aspect of Yes, or individuals who may not appeal to everyone. Compared to the No side, Yes were amazing! A whole different level of morality and competence.

    We came very close to winning against an enemy which was literally overpowering.

    We have built up a grassroots network which politics in the UK has never seen.

    We need to stay on the job! Hold feet to the fire, highlight political immorality, educate the ignorant. WM2015 could be a huge step forward.

    One thing mentioned often in other comments – there will never be another WM sanctioned referendum, no Edinburgh Agreement II. Next time, we will need to be prepared to take independence as the result of a democratic mandate here and against the wishes of London.

  243. HandandShrimp says:

    To be fair to Alex Johnstone, no one has ever claimed he is an intellectual giant and he has performed a service in demonstrating that playing with toy tractors and pondering on political philosophy appear to be mutually exclusive activities.

  244. Aspen says:


    Yourmight be a solution let UK have the oil, plus the debt that they built up, plus Trident. In exchange we get Indy and any oil in the Clyde area discovered in the future once Trident was out or the way.. BUT could we trust them with any agreement.

  245. Boorach says:

    @ John King

    Just as well you landed on your head then, eh John! 🙂

    But seriously… as you say the WBB was/is a tremendous asset and Stuart is to be lauded for it. However, it does need to, but cannot realistically, be available to every singly voter in the country.

    This is where a library of leaflets/fliers would be an asset. Single topics and the ability to highlight a current hot topic on the streets, being delivered with the party’s electoral literature to keep the flame burning and all of the new activists interested and on-message.

  246. john king says:

    “Depends on the ADSL line speed on the GCHG connection spur.”

    Snigger. 🙂

  247. ScottieDog says:

    In response to points about currency there are things scotland could so NOW which would be a step forward. Set up something like the WIR economic cooperative in Switzerland. It’s been around since the 30s and is used by thousands of businesses. It’s a way of credit clearing using payment separate from the Swiss franc. In other words it’s really a separate alternative currency. You can see ‘WIR’ signs in shops, garages etc…

    The beauty of it is that it’s counter-cyclical – as recession bites these businesses don’t suffer from lack of lending from banks.

    People can take confidence from this that there are infinite ways to trade. It might also make people far less wary of moving away from a currency that isn’t working for the majority.

    Someone mentioned the argument about house prices post-yes. Would they go up etc..
    I would have made the argument that the very reason that prices tripled in less than 15 years was because of govt policy (labour and Tory). They allowed the unhindered creation of money by private banks most of which was concentrated on a single asset – housing, thereby inflating the price. The proceeds of all this benefited a few people in the city.

    I always mentioned to people the fact that our kids will be paying off the debt associated with the god-awful mess we left whilst they can’t afford a roof over their heads. What a legacy.

    Anyway, action is the best antidote to despair!

  248. Betty Boop says:

    Good morning and starting with a test!

    It is 9:03am and even when I refresh, the last comment I see on the page is timed at 8:37am (Good Morning, BtP).

  249. Murray McCallum says:

    I’m always struck by polls that show how Scots are very much for independence, just as long as you do not actually call it that.

    There must be scope to develop existing procedures, Scottish government departments, agencies, advisers, etc as if they were effectively working in a fully “independent” country already.

    We somehow have to lessen the perceived step to independence for many people. This will also weaken the effectiveness of any future “shock & awe” program that will be run again by the MSM.

  250. Betty Boop says:

    The first caller to Kay with an eh has decided that the ref was all about hating the English and the Nicola S was just as bad as Alex S in whipping it up – hmm, she must have been abroad, possibly in England reading the Daily whatever.

    It seems other callers are worried because there has been no contest. There should be a contest, there should be a contest, bleat, bleat. Looks like they want to line folk up whether or not they want the job. Who is running this, IDS?

  251. John H. says:

    manandboy 11.46pm.

    What you say is entirely plausible. That being the case, we will have to find a way of declaring UDI. Before we do that though we must ensure that the bulk of the population in Scotland are with us. Otherwise we will create a situation which will make George Square on September 19th look like a small ripple on a pond.

    Winning folk over will not be easy, the referendum campaign should have taught us that.It must be done though.

    So far at least, Westminster seems to be doing its best to help us. For example I heard on the car radio this morning that Lord Freud has said, with Cameron’s backing, that some disabled people are not worth paying the minimum wage to. Much trouble lies ahead whatever happens.

  252. One_Scot says:

    Johann Lamont – ‘Nicola Sturgeon must help “heal and unite” Scotland.’ Clearly she is taking the piss.

    Lamont calls for unity. This coming from the leader of Labour in Scotland who has constantly been abusive to the SNP in parliament and her party opposes everything that the Scottish Government puts forward for opposition sake, even when they agree with it.

    The woman is undoubtedly a first class hypocrite of the highest order, whose very existence is denying a decent person an opportunity to make a valued contribution to politics and a better Scotland.

    For me she represents everything that is repugnant about Scottish Labour and their self serving mentality, and is a disgrace to the people who gave her their vote.

  253. Onwards says:

    Regarding a second ‘consultative’ referendum.

    The SNP still has the power to push this through next year, if there is no significant progress on extra powers.

    But it would be met with massive resistance and perhaps a boycott call, being so soon after this referendum.
    Calls of ‘neverendums’ etc.

    But if tbe SNP do not get another majority in Holyrood, we might never get another opportunity. Remember it was designed to prevent majorities, and the SNP achieved that with Alex Salmond at the height of his popularity, and newspaper support from the Sun etc. ‘Play it again Salm’

    Nicola is popular also, but they will have to keep an eye on the polls, and consider if another outright majority is likely.

    Would it be possible to have a consultative referendum at the same time as the 2016 Holyrood elections?
    That would avoid a boycott.

    We need to wait and see where the cards fall on Devo-Max, but right now it looks like the London parties have no intention to devolve significant powers that would let Scotland compete.

    So there could well be a genuine reason for a second referendum, and genuine grievance if Scotland is let down with Devo-Nano.

  254. heraldnomore says:

    John McTernan coming over as a bitter and twisted wee nyaff. Why did Kaye call him in anyway, other than to be a bitter and twisted wee nyaff.

    And Carla reminds me very much of Mhairi Black at the weekend, in several ways.

  255. Luigi says:

    Anyone slagging off the YES campaign ought to pause and reflect the huge influx of new members in the three independence supporting parties since the referendum. They joined those parties, because they were inspired by the positivity, the vision and the solidarity of the YES campaign. So we did something right.

    Bitter BT may have won on the day, but how many people have flocked to join the Red, Yellow and Blue Tory parties since the referendum?

  256. Edward says:

    Completely O/T
    An article in today’s Bloomberg caught my eye and really had me open mouthed reading it.

    Basically it is a punt at promoting London airports for exporting Scottish produce.

    It quotes Ben Murray, managing director of Keltic Seafare, The article states : ““It’s a logistical nightmare,” said Ben Murray, managing director at Keltic Seafare, Scotland’s biggest shellfish supplier. “If there was a secure network to the Asias and Dubais of this world from the Highlands it would open up all sorts of options.” – unquote

    The article also states “Now Keltic Seafare delivers 35,000 kilos (77,162 pounds) of fresh langoustines a year to Spain, Europe’s biggest seafood market, via Amsterdam. There are no flights from the local Inverness airport to Heathrow.

    Murray said Asian exports would become possible with the restoration of Heathrow services, which ended in 2008 when the former British Midland pulled out of the Scottish route. ” – unquote

    Now the astute of our readers should have now realised something a bit amiss, that Mr Murray of Keltic Seafare seems to be unaware of. After all he has a fine company with exceptional produce, that he would like to sell more off overseas. But is hamstrung, because Inverness does not have direct flights to Heathrow.

    Perhaps an intrepid Scottish Freight company would like to suggest to Keltic Seafare that they don’t actually have to ship produce through London. In fact Keltic Seafare have connections far closer, in the shape of routes from Glasgow and Edinburgh.

    Unless I am mistaken there are direct flights to Dubai from Scotland (ex Glasgow by Emirates – daily). Direct flights to Doha ex Edinburgh by Qatar – 5 times a week and from next year Etihad will fly direct from Edinburgh to Abu Dhabi.

    In addition to this there are far better connections via Europe than Heathrow could ever offer.

    So it really ‘grinds my gears’ when a company is not being advised properly by the people that they contract to advise them ‘best way’ to export

    Now stepping of my soap box 🙂

  257. Betty Boop says:

    @ Betty Boop, 9:05

    Ooops, should have mentioned that the problem I have with delay, etc. is with Explorer and Firefox. Using Chrome to post at present. The only thing I am having a problem with on Chrome at present is having to delete husbands details and re-type mine each time.

  258. caz-m says:

    Gordon Brown will present a petition of 120,000 signatures to the Westminster Parliament today regarding no back tracking on the “Vow”.

    You get the feeling that Gordon Brown is trying to present himself as one of “us”. Well that will not wash Gordon. You are definitely one of “them”.

    It reminds me of a documentary I watched about the Iranian Embassy Siege in London years ago, when, after the SAS thought they had killed all the terrorists, one had blended in with the remaining hostages. The terrorist was eventually spotted by one of his hostages and taken away.

    My point being, that Gordon Brown is now trying to blend in with us ordinary downtrodden Scots, “we are all in it together”, kind of mentality.

    Gordon, we see through your wee scam and my advice to you is to go and take a run and jump.

  259. Luigi says:

    If YES Scotland had run a negative BT-type campaign, I don’t think we would be seeing the huge influx of new members to the SNP, Greens and SSP that is still, apparently continuing.

  260. Dave Robb says:

    We are in the next campaign of a long war. As Mao is reported to have said: When the enemy advances we retreat, when he halts, we re-organise, when he falters, we advance”.

    My father is a solid “No” Tory -at 89 he is unlikely to change. My wife and three sons are solid “Yes”. Nearly all our friends are “Yes”. With one exception, those who voted “No” are saying IF there is not substantial and real progress on “devo-max” or federalism, they are voting to oust Labour/Tory/LibDems and calling for another referendum and voting “Yes”.

    This is why it is vital to stay as sane as possible in our arguments on-line, to avoid putting off reinforcements to the cause, to reassure and welcome converts, and to focus on the strategic aim: Independence. At the same time the tactics used to gain that goal need to be realistic and as flexible as we can make them.

    THAT is why we need to be positive about what we are trying to get from the “Vow”, the Smith Commission, and the next General Election campaign. From the record of the “N0” campaign they will machine-gun themselves in both feet in the next year,. It has already started – a new war, more cuts, Labour walking out of negotiations on EVEL, the real face of the Tory party on display regarding disabled people on benefits.

    For the record I am not a Maoist nor a Communist, but it is worth looking at the history of the long war fought to liberate China from corruption, economic oppression and invasion. We don’t have to copy their social and economic policies, merely their sense of priorities regarding our political goal.

    We then have the power to decide as a country what kind of society we will prioritise – for the few or the many, for the people or the bankers, for the long-term or the short-term gain.

    That will be another battle in another war – nothing is free.

  261. One_Scot says:

    I asked a similar question on another post. I believe that a second referendum date would have to be called (on the grounds of the first referendum being fraudulent due to proposals for a No vote not being met), before the 2016 election as there is no guarantee the SNP will gain an overall majority in the future.

  262. Betty Boop says:

    @ Edward, 9:30am

    You are absolutely right that companies should consider avoiding Heathrow and investigate the other options via Europe and the Middle East for exporting. The same should be advised to holidaymakers and businessmen for personal flights.

    My family avoiding Heathrow as far as possible.

  263. Juteman says:

    Call UKaye introduces Alex Bell as an ex SNP advisor. No mention of McTernans Labour background when she introduced him.
    Also, every person that was enthusiastic about Nicola was asked if they were a Yes/SNP voter. Folk that were nasty about Nicola weren’t asked if tbey were a No/Labour voter.
    Same old, same old.

  264. gillie says:

    How would you describe the UK government’s relationship with Scotland?

    I would say they are taking the piss.

  265. Grouse Beater says:

    Yesindieref2: It’s why it’s important for us not to slag off NO voters any more, the referendum is done, we lost.

    That’s a mute point. If we had ‘lost’ comprehensively the opposition would not now be scrambling to offer greater powers. Whether we get them or not is another matter.

    As for the medic earlier placing his toe in the water to offer his penny’s worth in fear of personal attacks, label attribution is as nothing to the violence of the attacks unionists made upon Scotland and its people, much of it libelous.

    If you study the transition of other countries from colonial rule to independence, even those lately, you’ll see the same passionate condemnation, the same tone of language, from those seeking greater liberty against those who seek to crush hope.

    Telling those protecting a £200,000 annual income and career they are a ("Quizmaster" - Ed) is as nothing to being told, day in, day out, your country’s history is garbage and you are worthless, and then watch the same power elite steal your nation’s wealth from under your nose.

    That said, I too welcome any No voter expressing his or her reasons for voting against their country’s interests. Some I know who did, did it for very personal, selfish reasons: “I shall lose my research grant,” and so on, and so forth.

  266. Grouse Beater says:

    Luigi: Anyone slagging off the YES campaign ought to pause and reflect the huge influx of new members in the three independence supporting parties since referendum. They joined … because they were inspired by the positivity, the vision and the solidarity of the YES campaign.

    More common sense.

    The amateur psychology and sociology is counter-productive.

  267. galamcennalath says:

    Murray McCallum says:
    I’m always struck by polls that show how Scots are very much for independence, just as long as you do not actually call it that.

    That does seem to be soooo very true!

    Question after question over powers – we are for it being shifted to Holyrood. I’ve even seen a poll where the majority of Scots want Holyrood to have a veto on Scottish troop deployment. If that it’s defence and diplomacy what is it? Include that, and it is close to independence.

    But wrap all the questions into one Yes/No and we aren’t quite so sure.

    Perhaps if the ‘sales pitch’ were on the powers one by one, it might firm people up on the overall package!?

    Just thinking about the Unionists attitudes – they seem to prefer things to be transfered only in parts ie part of income tax, part of benefits, part of oil revenues. They are very unwilling to transfer a power as a complete entity. I suppose the reason is obvious – once a power has gone completely, they have lost it. Lose enough powers, and independence will creep up on them!

  268. davidb says:

    I am not slanging YES. I hope I am giving constructive criticism. I did campaign and I know I converted people to our cause. My only regret is not getting involved earlier and not converting another 300000.

    @ Boorach

    Maybe a series of policy forming societies can come out of this. Think tanks. But just like the WBB, not affiliated to parties, just private initiatives producing open licence easy to print/ downloadable fact sheets.

    I want, above everything else, for my Country to be a free state with all decisions taken by us, for us, in our own freely elected parliament in our own Capital city. I believe that with all my mind where once I only believed it with my heart. I am a zealot now. I was not before this campaign.

  269. gillie says:

    What takes precedence over the debate in the HoC on the UK Government’s relationship with Scotland? Interesting question that.

    1. Get Britain Cycling
    2. National Pollinator Strategy
    3. UK Government’s relationship with Scotland

    So if you are a cycling bee keeper you are going to be mightily pissed off that your day at Westminster is being curbed by MPs discussing the abusive relation between the UK government and Scotland.

    Cycling bee keepers of the world should remain united in the face of this insult.

  270. Sinky says:

    Juteman says:

    This is always BBCs modus operandi it makes neutral observers belittle the “partisan” views of pro SNP / Indy contributors but value the comments from the “neutral” Labour sympathisers / No supporters.

    Hard to believe it is a mere oversight as it happens on a regular basis and during the referendum campaign on at least one occasion a current Labour prospective candidate was introduced as an “Edinburgh Businessman”.

  271. Graeme Doig says:


    My fear is that GB has and is positioning himself (or has just stumbled into the position) to be Scotland’s champion at WM. I think it is imperative that SNP MP’s step up to the plate to steal his thunder.
    The last thing we need is for GB and Slab to gain the moral high ground in a fight with WM over more powers.

    I’m also furious that whoever started the petition with 38 Degrees has allowed him to highjack it to the extent he’s allowed to present it to WM.

  272. gillie says:

    GD – We should all boycott 38 Degrees. They are on my blacklist.

  273. Grouse Beater says:

    Murray McCallum says: “I’m always struck by polls that show how Scots are very much for independence, just as long as you do not actually call it that.”

    A perceptive comment.

    At a well-attended SNP meeting I voiced the opinion that to call it ‘independence’ might dissuade many who felt themselves cut-off from England, and furthermore, it would offer ammunition to unionists to say it was anything but independence – keeping the monarch, sharing the pound, et cetera – which the loyalist exploited to great effect.

    My alternative of sovereignty-regained with full powers didn’t attact the wished for discussion. I knew my opinion was in the minority.

    My point was, the passionate objective of the SNP held for generations was not necessarily held by the apolitical or the partisan – they might well want something that did not seem to be isolationist.

    We had to convince them of a new reality – co-operation with our next door neighbour as separate individuals.

  274. Natasha says:

    I was reading the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations the other night, because my husband nicked my computer and I couldn’t get onto Wings. I came across a quotation by Accius, a Latin poet and dramatist of the first century BC. It said:

    “Let them hate, so long as they fear.”

    Seems nothing has changed in two thousand years.

  275. caz-m says:

    Scottish Labour Party members are getting very animated about the “Coronation” of Nicola Sturgeon.

    These same people have to be asked, who voted for Gordon Brown to become the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom?

    The answer is no-one. Gordon Brown seamlessly walked from Number 11 Downing St into Number 10 Downing St, without asking a single voter.

  276. SquareHaggis says:


    Effin Bee Keepers eh?

  277. K1 says:

    davidb, perhaps Common Weal could be useful in this regard, they are already ahead of the curve, in that they ostensibly produce policy documents and have lobbying power. The latest update from them includes this, which chimes with what you, boorach and others are talking about;

    “This is the second part of our vision: redressing the information imbalance and promoting progressive left ideas to the mainstream of public and political discourse. We will do this by being a platform for our policy network of talented academics and practitioners to connect and promote their ideas, through our publishing, media and policy engagement capabilities.”

    “This is not about us. It’s about us giving you a voice.”

    Perhaps this should be tapped into regarding moving forward with assistance from this already fully formed think tank?

  278. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Luigi at 9.30

    Exactly. We now have the benefit of a hugely positive campaign that, despite frantic attempts by all of the media to bury it, has transformed the political landscape in Scotland.

    I don’t know if we realise just how big a change has happened.
    I hope we know how to harness it before it dissipates.

    What has happened to Million Pound Murphy? He’s gone all silent.
    Has a lid been put on internal back-stabbing in the Labour Party in Scotland as their membership evaporates?

  279. Apache says:

    I have yet to meet a No voter who has been able to give a reason for their vote, that was not quite obviously Selfish, Spineless or Stupid. This includes friends & family.

    My current view, is that whilst I will canvass on their doorsteps for their future votes, I will not engage with them socially in any way or conduct business with them.

    The way I see it, I have no need for more than 1.6mill friends or customers and will be re-branding my business appropriately.

  280. caz-m says:

    Graeme Doig
    “The last thing we need is for GB and Slab to gain the moral high ground in a fight with WM over more powers.”

    People like us are onto them Graeme, but the general public will get the BBC Scotland/Daily Record view of the world.

    This has to change, Brown has to be outed as the Unionist two faced, self serving, liar that we know he is.

    Rev, may I suggest that you dedicate a full day of posts highlighting the built-in deceit that forms Gordon Brown’s character.

  281. schrodingers cat says:

    what do we do now?
    all of the leaflets, conversations, rallies and comments in the last few years were aimed at one thing, and one thing only. getting people to put a X next to YES on a ballot paper

    the referendum is over. mores the pity. going forward

    all of the leaflets, conversations, rallies and comments in the next few years will be aimed at one thing, and one thing only. getting people to put a X next to SNP on a ballot paper

  282. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    @ schrodingers cat

    “What do we do next?”

    Go back to school, not as pupils but, as teachers and proselytise to the convinced, unconvinced but open and the frightened.

  283. Robert Louis says:


    I do wonder if the delay on posts appearing on this site could be fixed. It affects everybody.

    I know that the site has or is under near constant cyber attack, but it would be nice if there were a way to fix it.

    The main reason I ask, is this, too many times since the referendum, people have come on here posting demonstrable rubbish – and some of it is damaging to the motivation of some readers etc.. In the past some good folks who post regularly could immediately respond to such nonsense, and stop the rubbish growing on this site and others. However, as we now have around 20 minutes delay in posting, it means that by the time such nonsense, or incorrect information can be corrected, there is mass postings contradicting and arguing, seeding division.

    I think sorting that one thing out, would greatly help to bring a bit more positivity and sanity to the comments. At present people are succumbing to some very silly comments.

    So, I ask, please can it be fixed, if technically possible. 🙂

  284. Graeme Doig says:


    Absolutely. Unfortunately the horse has bolted on that one.


    Public perception is every thing and that is why SNP and others need to challenge GB and Slab at every opportunity and i really do think they have missed a trick in allowing Gb to take the lead in the debate today at WM.

    Maybe SNP have a strategy to maintain the momentum of the Yes movement. I feel they need to get on the front foot with whatever strategy they have, and soon.

  285. fred blogger says:

    Grouse Beater
    if people move from no to yes that reflect’s common sense, and is their individual gain.
    the no campaign was sterile, clinically stage managed in front of the MSM, with practically no active participation with/of voters.
    it was carried out behind a window, closed off, with virtually no feedback from audiences.
    with no right of reply, it was one way valve, which is very frustrating and supposed to be.
    there can be no reconciliation with liars, only the duped.
    the no camp’s Q&A’s @ meetings (gatherings of the faithful) were appalling dire uninformative and misleading.
    there was no way to get a straight answer, which led to hostility and animosity towards the BT campaign.

  286. bookie from hell says:

    my thoughts silent NO voter

    my ma was one

    they are at ease within the union

    the benefit of voting YES doesnt outweigh status quo

    it doesn’t make them less scottish,as many in a way are non political

    bbc,nhs,pension are part of daily life and they don’t want to rock the boat

  287. fred blogger says:

    someone tell me how many NEW faces emerged from the no campaign?

  288. Fred says:

    If I remember aright, Lamont actually lost the election for Scottish Labour leadership but such is the democratic process in that semi-defunct outfit that the winner, one MacIntosh who rose without trace, actually lost.
    “For the times they are a changing”, jing, jing!

  289. Jack Murphy says:

    Agree with you comment Robert Louis at time 11:03am.
    PLEASE folks when referring to a post,with the current 20 minutes delay PLEASE insert the time of post we are referring to.
    I’m completely bamboozled about who is actually responding to whom—-put in the TIME. Thankyou.
    Best wishes to you all.

  290. X_Sticks says:

    Sort of O/T

    New thread here:

    Doesn’t seem to be displaying unless you do a refresh on the O/T page for some reason.

  291. Robert Peffers says:

    @Capella says: 16 October, 2014 at 12:40 am:

    “My understanding is that it is legal for Scottish banks to print notes so I don’t see what the problem is with having our own currency.”

    You seem to have misunderstood the Scottish Banks printing their own notes thingy, Capella.

    It is an Article and part of the Treaty of Union. The first part of the deal is that the two Kingdoms agree Sterling is their common currency. The second is that the Bank Notes, (Promissory Notes), the Scots banks are legally allowed to print are, the common to both kingdoms, Sterling. The arrangement being that for every Scottish note they print they must deposit, in a special, interest earning, account in the Bank of England a Bank of England note to cover the Scottish notes value.

    So at any time in that BofE account there is deposited the total value of the Scottish Banks Scottish Banknotes. Upon independence the Scottish based banks may demand the return of that BofE deposit. In addition, because the BofE was nationalised in 1946, an independent Scotland owns a negotionable portion of the Nationalised bank’s assets owned by the people of Scotland.

    Furthermore, there is nowhere a legal agreement for the UK government claim that assets & debits of the United Kingdom be split up on the ratio of current UK population. For example a better split may be the average revenues paid into the UK treasury from Scotland.

    We do not accept the unsubstantiated claims made by not only the English Kingdom but the Unionist faction of the parties in Scotland. We may have good reason to take these matters to the International courts or even the Council of Europe.

  292. gillie says:

    The aim is simple folks.

    It is to campaign for the re-election of the SNP with a manifesto commitment to hold another referendum in response to Westminster breaking their promises on giving Scotland extensive new powers (i.e. Devo-Max).

  293. Karmanaut says:

    Some people I know later said they voted “no”. Here are three genuine reasons they gave for why they voted that way.

    1 – “I feel more British than Scottish.”

    2 – “I genuinely agree with everything the Yes side say, but I’m too scared. I just don’t think we can do it.”

    3 – “I worry that a Yes vote will see Scotland become an extreme right wing state like Hungary.”

    The first one is the “faith” issue, shared by many Rangers fans, for example. These people won’t change to Yes, because it’s not about what is best for them, but about how they feel. You might as well walk in to a church and start telling the congration how much better off they’d be if they were athiests.

    The last one is striking, and is clearly down to ignorance. Education would have made this voter a Yes.

    The middle one is a lack of confidence. I really, really tried to convince this voter, and actually thought I had succeeded to swing them to Yes, but in the end it the onslaught of threats from the loyalist thugs did their job.

    The last two would have voted for Devo-max without a doubt.

  294. @John King. – First off nice to hear there was a lot of SNP members in Cowdenbeath last night. Cowdenbeath is my hame toon, and hope at last in 2015 they have the sense to vote out that slimy sleekit rat Gordon Brown.

    But less of the patonising JK. I stand by what I said these NOs get nothing from me until they admit what the did and apologise for it. Then I may tolerate them. Let one of them (that I know voted NO) drop in the street I step over him/her.

    BTW I remember the woman who spat in front of me while I was canvassing (a woman), another woman a young mother I gave a little Saltire flag to her toddler because he was looking at the other kids getting them and ballons etc, when she looked down and seen the flag in the little boys hand she ripped it from his hand with such force that the wee boy was pulled off his feet around her legs onto his knees and then she stormes off the wee boy dragging along the ground for about 6 feet, then there were the people who called me and the partner I was with horrible names before slamming the door s in our faces, I also had someone so aggressively shove their face within an inch of mine ans spit out I should be jailed (coming from Cowdenbeath and having served in the forces I don’t know how I showed the restraint I did), SO as I said before unless they apologise for what they did when they voted NO they are nothing to me.

    The folks in England will see us get our independence with this EVEL. What will be the point of tories or labour voters voting to send MPs down south who can’t vote on almost nothing. The NO voters here when shit happens to them will be looking for support and some note I say some may vote for an Independence party. Basically though the NO voters were and are and will remain selfish self serving gits.

    So do not bother John King to lecture me anymore. YOU go and appease them if you want , I will not.

  295. Westie7 says:

    @Robert Peffers 16 October, 2014 at 11:18 am

    I like that! Will save that one for the future

  296. Grouse Beater says:

    James Caithness: do not bother John King to lecture me anymore. YOU go and appease them if you want , I will not.

    I interesting turn of events, James.

    Back in the day you and I would be ridiculed for thinking the Treaty a grossly outdated and lethally biased agreement, a new one offering equal rights long overdue.

    Matters are now reversed. A great many feel that, to hold a distinctly bizarre opinion is to believe another nation better at running our affairs.

    That switch of attitude has to be one victory of the Referendum!

  297. Grouse Beater says:

    Oor ain Sarah Smith, on her superficial magazine show, suggested to a plitical pundit that it was rather ‘too early for independence adherents to call unionist offer of more powers a lie.”

    Over a 100 years of turncoat history, even that of most recent times, promises trashed, never seems to reach the intellectual understanding of BBC journalists.

  298. Cirsium says:

    @CraigP, 8.20am

    Agreed. Scottish government should introduce radical land reform. I’d also like to see reform of local government and local government finance (land valuation tax sounds good).

  299. Alba 46 says:

    I note that media is reporting that Gordon Brown is being mentioned as the replacement Red Tory leader in Scotland.
    Lamont is an unmitigated failure as a politician but for her to be replaced by someone who was/is a :

    Failed MP

    Failed Chancellor

    Failed Prime Minister

    Failed human being – re a proven liar for his organ Transplant statement

    Sounds ideal for the post!!!!!

    God’s truth give me strength.

  300. liz says:

    Read all of the above, lots of ideas I think we are still in the hanging about phase, not sure what to do but one thing is certain, every day I hate this union more and more.

    Call Kay(e) which I don’t listen to but get the jist of here sounds awful.
    I don’t get how the likes of that b**** can so easily push propaganda, it’s a bloody shocker.
    1.6m voted for FULL independence that is not going to go away.

    If we get cheated again by lack of powers ‘given’, we MUST have a referendum and quickly.
    The last time, we needed the 3 years to get folk informed, we don’t need the same amount of time and it would give the naysayers less time to get their full on project fear up and running.

    I think we live in one of the most corrupt countries in the world, maybe we always have and most didn’t notice.

  301. bookie from hell says:

    what time is gordon brown speaking hoc for his amendment bill today?


  302. AuldA says:


    Simply… thanks so much!
    Going to have a look

  303. Robert Peffers says:

    @Onwards says: 16 October, 2014 at 12:23 am:

    Mince , Onwards, UK propaganda mince.

    “The problem is we would have the exact same issue with currency if we have another referendum.

    Only if we accept the UK propaganda as the truth. How many times did Alistair Darling make the idiotic claim, “You can’t tell us what currency an independent Scotland would use”, only seconds after being told we will use Scotland’s own legal currency – The Pound Sterling?

    We do not need a Central Bank because it was NOT the BofE that provided the funds to bail out the failed institutions. It was foreign sources and the UK treasury and they are still making the poorest of the poor pay for it while the bankers and the richest are getting even richer.

    “There is no easy answer.”

    Yes there is.

    “A Scottish currency pegged to sterling would need large reserves to back it up.”

    We have large reserves. Every pound printed by a Scottish based bank has a BofE pound in a special interest earning account in the BofE. We are also due a negotiable share of all UK assets and we have a 95% share of the oil & gas reserves plus the net value of Scottish exports.

    “And the banks would HQ in London to cater to the majority of their customers.”

    Crap. How do they manage to serve their English customers ATM? They are based in Scotland for a very good reason. Why would any reasonable business person go to the expense of moving their business to the most expensive city in Europe when the vast majority of their transaction are on-line anyway? For example the BOS has their actual headquarters in London and only a brass plate on the Mound in Edinburgh.

    Here’s another of their idiotic claims that I expect you also believe. Their sneering references to , “If you don’t have a central Bank you’ll end up as a banana republic like Panama.”.

    For crying out loud, Panama is actually one of the most stable economies in the World. It uses the international trading currency, “The USA Dollar”. It ties it to the USA Dollar. It needs no ones permission to do so and has no central bank. Go figure. Here’s the 2014 top 20 most stable economies : –
    1 Hong Kong 90.1:
    2 Singapore 89.4 :
    3 Australia 82.0:
    4 Switzerland 81.6
    5 New Zealand 81.2
    6 Canada 80.2
    7 Chile 78.7:
    8 Mauritius 76.5:
    9 Ireland 76.2:
    10 Denmark 76.1:
    11 Estonia 75.9:
    12 United States 75.5:
    13 Bahrain 75.1:
    14 United Kingdom 74.9:
    15 The Netherlands 74.2:
    16 Luxembourg 74.2:
    17 Taiwan 73.9:
    18 Germany 73.4:
    19 Finland 73.4:
    20 Sweden 73.1.

  304. fred blogger says:

    Robert Peffers

  305. davidb says:

    @ Robert P

    See theres the rub. The people with a currency “problem” are rUK. It is in their interest to share the currency of an independent Scotland. Our interest is short term trade and currency valuation issues and the risk of the Cityslickers “attacking” an independent Scotland’s currency both for sport and profit. Its 2 years to join the Euro – and maybe not the ideal time to decide that was in our interest. An independent currency has the highest risks for us. Sharing their currency is not that big a deal. Hong Kong and the UAE have dollar conversion at fixed rates.

    The EU – which we are and would continue to be members of, insists that banks are HQ’d where they do most of their business. Thats why all the big banks dont HQ in tax havens like Starbucks or Amazon. We should have been made fully aware of this fact prior to the referendum. It was used against us. But Santander is Spanish, and Clydesdale is Australian. In what way does their nationality impact on everyday lives of Scottish customers? HSBC is traded in London and HQ’d there but does its business in

    RBS is 80% owned by UK Plc.

    It could reasonably be argued that an oligopoly exists in Scottish bank provision today anyway.

  306. Robert Peffers says:

    @john king says:16 October, 2014 at 7:54 am:

    “But I doubt the veracity of the assertion that the EU forced Tony Blair to set up the Scottish parliament because there really is no compelling evidence to support the assertion,

    If that were true why did the EU only pick in the UK?
    why didn’t it insist Spain set up a devolved parliament in Catalonia?”

    There really is no comparison between the case of the United Kingdom and Spain. In fact both sides in the Spanish disagreement have pointed out as much. I won’t bore you again with the detailed history but only list the signed and legal treaties that are legal proof that in 1706/7 what was created was legally not a single country but a bipartite United Kingdom.

    These documents are : -1284, Statute of Rhuddlan; 1542, Crown of Ireland Act. 1603 – Scottish King inherits English crown but cannot make a United Kingdom; 1688 – three country Kingdom of England becomes a constitutional monarchy. 1706/7 Treaty of Union forms a United Kingdom, (not a united Country).

    Spain created itself a single country by conquest when all the countries they annexed were under the law of, “Divine Right of Kings”. Thus there are no treaties to disunite the country of Spain. I’ll put that shortly – A treaty of Union can disunite a part of the same country cannot.

  307. Stoker says:

    @12.37pm – Robert Peffers.
    Well said, Robert, and sharply put without being long-winded.
    However, “Mince”?, how dare you, there’s a lot you can do with “mince”, but then again i think you’ve just proved that, eh! lol

  308. Jamie Arriere says:


    Re Pictish, the best contact for study of language/Ogham when I was at Glasgow Uni was Dr Katharine Forsyth.

    There’s a few publications at the foot of this page

  309. Onwards says:

    @Robert Peffers

    Sorry, you are wrong, and you are missing the point.
    The currency issue was the number one reason we lost.
    I know the issues well.

    There are genuine concerns for English customers of the large ‘Scottish’ banks.
    They would see a large loss of customers just on perception alone.. that their accounts were based in a ‘foreign country’ and that Scotland wouldn’t be able to bail them out if there was trouble. It doesn’t matter if that was true or not.

    The banks would set up HQ’s in London to cater to these customers, in effect splitting into two.
    I agree that it could mostly be brass plates, but it’s all about the perception of losing millions of customers.

    Alex Salmond made a big deal about the news leaking, when that wasn’t really the issue. It looked like deflection.
    Most people didn’t care that someone broke the rules, but about the actual issue that banks would move their HQ.

    We should have just admitted that, and made the point that it was for the greater good as an independent Scotland would be more secure.

    In a way it would be a good thing if it happened right now.
    OF COURSE we wouldn’t be bailing them all out if a second crash happened, but that was what many of the public BELIEVED. That it could bankrupt us.

    It’s all about perception.
    eg Panama may be stable, but that isn’t the image most people have.

    The public perception was that we were all over the place on currency, helped by the media.

    We were dependent on other people being reasonable and logical when it came to a currency union.

  310. yesindyref2 says:

    Criticising YES seems to get peoples backs up, perhaps no wonder as we’ve all worked our little cotton socks off as part of YES. It’s a queston of what can be done better next time.

    Talking about those A5 leaflets, I think one definitely needs to be on mortgages. I spent a few hours trying to find “authoritative” info on this and failed. What I wanted was some part of a bank or builing society’s website info that described any excess that might be charged as a “foreign country” excess on mortgages, mentioned vageuley by unionists countering my argument that it had nothing to do with the credit rating, or the country’s borrowing rates, it had all to do with central bank rate.

    Couldn’t find anything apart from vague allusions in financial papers to it. None of the vested interestes of course came out with that information, a schedule of charges. So it was a “myth” that was allowed to be gotten away with.

    I’m not up to this even with a bit of a financial background. What we need is someone that is, someone who dealt in mortgages, and perhaps cross-border ones too.

    When I came back from Germany many years ago, because of my status it wasn’t easy getting another mortgage when I wanted to move from a flat to a house. I was theoretically “unemployed” rather than “resting”! One of the possibilities was a French bank, so international mortgages are a possibility, or were then. In the event I did find a UK mortgage (Yorkshire Building Society).

  311. yesindyref2 says:

    Alex Salmond did go on about the RBS leak, I guess he was trying to do two things. One to show the bias of the BBC through Nick Robinson, which may have worked a bit. It did get a lot of publicity, and a fair amount of sympathetic coverage from the London based media and international media too, who even had the youtub clips on their websites to show the BBC had edited out the answers to the liar’s questions. How Nick has survived I have no idea. But we all know the BBC has no integrity.

    The second was to discredit the Treasury, the source of so much one-sided, exaggerated garbage, with figures multiplied by 12. I don’t think that worked so well, perhaps the people of the UK all over are just so used to Government lies, leaks and bad behaviour they don’t care.

    He did perhaps keep it going too long. Having milked it quickly as much as possible, he should have left the cow alone to be put out to grass!

  312. Onwards says:


    Agree, it’s hard fighting amongst ourselves.
    But we need to face up to what worked and what didn’t.
    No point sticking our heads in the sand.

    It’s all about how to approach things better if we ever get a second bite of the cherry.

    The currency question was a huge problem, and there is no point avoiding that.
    Made more awkward by the fact the UK government held on to 80% of RBS, and was always going to play politics with it.

    Another problem for me, which is debatable, was the whole positive only approach, compared to a more balanced angle.
    Only in the last weeks were some serious attacks made regarding the NHS.. around the time when support started to rise.

    And another issue is that campaigns should have been far more targeted for certain areas. YES campaign won Glasgow and North Lanarkshire, but in doing so, maybe neglected traditional SNP areas, or didn’t change focus enough..

    There could have been a local campaign in Edinburgh to upgrade its status to a real international capital.
    For Aberdeen to be the HQ of a new Scottish Energy company..

    Don’t get me wrong, there was a lot that YES or the SNP did right.
    We went from 25% to 45%.
    53% a week before, if the internal polls had been correct.

    It’s just so frustrating to think that if a few things had been handled better, then Scotland could have gained independence.

  313. AuldA says:

    @Jamie Arrière:

    Thanks so much! I’ll try to contact her under my ‘university’ id. I see she is interested in using laser scanner to scan old inscriptions, I might send her some students of mine.

    Thanks a lot again!

  314. yesindyref2 says:

    I totally agree, we need to do the post-mortem. Not to blame, but to make sure it doesn’t happen again, and be better next time.

    These days I make and sell stuff in a very small family business, but what I did for near 25 years (freelance) was mostly analysis, problem-solving – trouble-shooting. Often it was left like that, problem solved, move on.

    But sometimes I / we had the luxury of analysing why the problem happened, was it isolated, was there a systemic fault, and plan to put it right. That only worked in a “no-blame” environment, and unfortunately mostly it’s a blame culture. Find out who messed up and sack them, or otherwise chastise them hence reducing their efficiency amd motivation. Wonderful, I don’t think 🙁

    What I guess I / we need to do when analysing what mistakes were made is to point out in every single flaming posting, that we’re not blaming anyone, everyone did their best. It’s how we can do it better next time – and win.

  315. yesindyref2 says:

    To add to the above, the absolute by a long way, worst sector I worked in for that blame culture which left deep-rooted systemic failurs imbedded, was the financial sector, and it’s hugely expensive as well. If anyone has a prblem with bank statements, over-charging, ATM not working, you know why.

    If I was a well-respected high level consultant, I’d charge about £1 million to go in and analyse the problems they have. My final report would be just 6 words long: “Get rid of the blame culture”.

  316. Dr JM Mackintosh says:

    Gordon Brown coming to Holyrood as the new SLab leader – I doubt it?

    Probably just a back-up plan if he gets booted out as an MP.

    However, if he was the new SLab leader then he would have to turn up regularly. I think he would find that a bit of a bind as it would interfere with his “charity” lecture tours.

  317. Jim IVY Morris says:

    Healing can only happen if it includes forgiveness. The mechanism for Yes supporters runs like this: I forgive you.
    (or A forgive ye). How it works:- forgiveness is only and always necessary when a wrong, injustice or damage has been done. (It is never appropriate to forgive a good thing). The forgiveness benefits the forgiver first, setting them free from and healing the damage of the others word or action. The wrongsayer -doer only benefits if they acknowledge their wrong and repent of it. The forgiver does not need to wait for this admission or apology in order to forgive.
    Remember one person’s poo is another person’s fertilizer.

  318. Cadogan Enright says:

    I must say that moaning about oldies and gearning about NO voters drives me bonkers. Forgive, yes maybe, but just move on.

    A clear majority on my canvass team were either ‘oldies’ or English, including several ex-military. The local convenor of the Greens was Italian. We had a Swede, German, 3 Irish and several other nationalities. ‘Real’ or ‘young’ Scots as I recall were a small minority in our area.

    We need to learn that our message (if any) to the ‘oldies’ did not get over properly. We did badly there and need to figure out how to do better next time – somehow get around the Mainstream Media that they seem to believe. We also failed to communicate to the very young voters until right to the very end.

    The issues are – how to work around the MSM and prevent them from excluding the YES alliance from the publics awareness in May – can we have single YES Alliance v’s 4 unionist candidates in May? How to expose the lies of the 3/4 Tory parties to the Scottish people – how to trigger a new referendum – maybe on real devo-max as part of a common manifesto for 2016 and so on and so forth

    Fáilte Simon ! Lets see if we can get a few of your friends on board!

  319. Rock says:

    James Caithness,

    “Basically though the NO voters were and are and will remain selfish self serving gits.”

    Apart from 10% of the 55%, they definitely were, are and will remain what you say.

    Our only hope is getting to the 10% who are not selfish self serving gits but were scared to death by the likes of Asda and the BBC.

  320. Rock says:

    Cadogan Enright,

    “We need to learn that our message (if any) to the ‘oldies’ did not get over properly. We did badly there and need to figure out how to do better next time”

    The 70% ‘oldies’ who voted No are stubborn British nationalists who will never vote Yes.

    No figuring out needed, completely ignore them next time. Don’t waste a single penny or moment on them.

    With all respect to the 30% who voted Yes.

  321. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Rock.

    You opined,
    The 70% ‘oldies’ who voted No are stubborn British nationalists who will never vote Yes.

    No, I don’t believe they are. A lot of them were victims of the concerted efforts of ‘Better Together’, by means of ‘cold calling’ and doorstep visits, to convince them that their pensions were under threat after a YES vote.

    Same goes for the Poles, who were told, by the same methods, that they would be ‘sent home’, as a result of a YES vote.

    Were they ‘British nationalists’ as well, looking after their own interests?

    Remember the SLAB/Daily Record/BBC Scotland agenda before you decry Scottish pensioners.

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