The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland


Fooled you twice

Posted on September 18, 2017 by

Three years ago today, Scotland bottled it. Almost uniquely in world history, its people turned down the chance to take control of their own affairs forever without a drop of blood being shed. They did so on the back of a package of vague promises, not least one of “extensive new powers”, almost all of which have subsequently been broken.

The Secretary of State for Scotland has chosen the anniversary of the referendum to let it be known that on top of that, the most fundamental building block of devolution – the premise that any power not explicitly reserved to Westminster in the Scotland Act 1998 would belong to Holyrood – will now be torn up, in the light of the exit from the EU that Scots were promised a No vote would protect them from.

In poker we call that a rubdown.

Print Friendly

    84 to “Fooled you twice”

    1. mogabee says:

      ‘Deliberate’? Damn right it is.

      Surely, surely, Scotland has taken enough blows to now say this union is a deceased parrot? Watching the polls slowly return to SNP again is heartening.

      We are so close now to telling Mundell…You’re FIRED 😀

    2. heedtracker says:

      “Scots were promised…” will be carved deep on this farce union’s tombstone.

    3. tiderium says:

      From Scotland to David Mundell: I’d rather have an enemy who admits they hate me, than a friend who tries to put me down. The original quote had the word secretly in it but there is nothing secretive about the little weasel’s actions. He hates Scotland and want’s to damage it as much as possible.

    4. louis.b.argyll says:

      Aye, even a dumb-down..

      British nationalists only need to fool some of the people, most of the time.

      Certain people are easier to fool than others, hence figures showing the No voters are in irreversible decline.

    5. Ken500 says:

      It is just despicable beyond contempt. Appalling behaviour by unionists/green sychopants who illegally waste and line their pockets with public money. Most of them should be in jail. Renege on any promises made. EVEL beyond description. It is just disgusting beyond belief. Total lack of democracy in the UK. Broken Britain. Acting corruptly and illegally. Break the Law with impunity. None of them ever go to jail. After committing mass crime. Breaking electoral rules.

    6. Doug Bryce says:

      Scotland can no longer remain in both the UK (2014 – 55%) and EU (2016-62%). Therefore there will be a second independence referendum.

      2 interesting points to watch…

      1) Westminster is on inevitable collision course with the devolved assemblies over Great Repeal Bill. If Holyrood refuses to give consent(… as seems likely) then the only way for Westminster to proceed is to ignore the Sewell convention. This would the first time ever Westminster has used its sovreingty to directly over rule a devolved assembly. Tantamount to ripping up the existing devolution settlement and ignoring Scotlands democratically elected MSPs. Political dynamite.

      2) The Northern Ireland solution will set an interesting precedent for Scotlands future relationship with UK and EU. If a single market solution can be found for NI then it will be politically impossible to deny Scots the same opportunity.

    7. Kenny says:

      With all the talk of the Catalan independence referendum on 1 October, another one is being overlooked.

      Exactly a week from now, on 25 September, the Kurds of Iraq are holding their own independence referendum.

      No one is supporting them (only Israel). Iran is promising to block their borders.

      The Kurds have done all the heavy work in ridding the region of the scourge of barbarism and religious fundamentalism. Yet absolutely no country, from the USA and Russia to Iran or Saudi Arabia, will support them.

      The Scottish Government has not come out in support of the Catalans even. Likewise, the SNP government refused to meet the Dalai Lama, when even David Cameron (the architect of the vow) did.

      I cannot help thinking there is a moral lesson there. If our government does not have the balls to openly support our Catalan friends (who were our allies in 2014) or even to mention the Kurds… does Scotland deserve the fruits of independence?*

      [*This is outside all the amazing YES groups and the YES campaign in general. So I think it might be better if Stu moves away from focussing on Holyrood and what Ruth Davidson said to Nicola on Twitter and spend more time on the Yes groups, the Catalans, the Kurds. It is the YES groups that will win us #indyref2, while an established political party might even hinder us… re the brainless “cannae stand the SNP” brigade”…]

      But please remember the Kurds a week from now. No one else seems to… Oh, and Viva Catalunya!

    8. Snode1965 says:

      Comes as no surprise.
      Post European Court jurisdiction, the British Establishment will treat us with the same respect that Franco Spain is treating Catalonia with.
      And so it begins…

    9. Bob p says:

      No other nationality in the world would stand for this disgusting treatment. Fgs Scotland grow a backbone and walk away from these predators.

    10. colin alexander says:

      Well, it’s time the SNP stopped folding and raised the stakes.

      Their mandate is EU Remain or Indyref 2. Nothing more, nothing less. No mandate for negotiating Scotland’s exit from the EU. No mandate for negotiating JUST SOME devolved powers for Holyrood.

      This should be the red line. The final straw.

      If we are dragged out the EU, we walk away from the UK Union Treaty.

    11. liz says:

      Hate to be pessimistic but was out lately with a SLAB supporter who denied that we were told any lies at the indy ref.

      You can fool some of the people all of the time.

      We just have to hope they’re in the minority

    12. Doug Bryce says:

      @kenny.

      Scottish government has come out in support of Catalonia referendum

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41294280

    13. John says:

      We need a war cabinet , perhaps all those MP ‘s that lost their seats could start one , working on convincing NO voters to come over to our side . Facts , figures , and benefits bombarded at the doubters every day so that come the next referendum we will win hands down .The Scottish Government then could not be accused of not getting on with the day job !

    14. Street Andrew says:

      The obsolete ‘vow’ of three obsolete politicians.

      Not worth the paper it’s printed on and given it’s the DR that’s not saying much is it?

    15. sam stilton says:

      We need to start funding now!

    16. Ottomanboi says:

      Gets really tiresome this stuff. Unfortunately, it merely supports the evidence that some Scots are naive, ingenuous and suckers for the schpiel of cold calling scheisters. We ought to be well beyond that mindset by now. We’re stuck in a deep rut of complacency, if not boredom. It will need the equivalent of some smart political dynamite to get us out of it. Alas, our ‘politicians’ may well not have a clue about the ingredients for the formula.

    17. Cuilean says:

      Quebec bottled it; twice!

      But there’s another less reported country which very recently voted twice on independence referendums.

      Montenegro (pop 600,000) voted No to independence (from Serbia) in 1992. Yes voters boycotted the first Indyref, stating it was not impartial, as the then Serbian state MSM papers & broadcaster were not impartial.

      Sound familiar?

      However, in a second Indyref in 2006, agreed under EU monitoring, Montenegro voted YES to independence. There were 3,000 independent monitors sent in to record and track the ballot boxes this time. But the EU ruled that 55.5% had to vote YES, for it to be binding, which it (very narrowly) achieved.

    18. heedtracker says:

      Doug Bryce says:
      18 September, 2017 at 10:16 am
      @kenny.

      Scottish government has come out in support of Catalonia referendum

      No it has not. It doesnt even say that,

      “Commenting on the ongoing dispute, Scotland’s External Affairs Secretary Fiona Hyslop said: “The decision over Catalonia’s future direction is a matter for the people who live there.”

      Another day in teamGB, another lazy fraud on Scotland.

    19. One_Scot says:

      It really is a sad state of affairs that the unionists have so much media influence and subliminal control over us that we do not have the ability to think rationally.

      I believe the fact that Catalonia have control over their own TV news stations will help give people the chance to make a balanced informed choice.

      Unless Scotland finds a solution to the media/Establishment bias and corruption that we face, it will always be difficult for Scotland to win Independence.

    20. Bill McDermott says:

      I have been mulling over what it would take to shock Scotland into going for Independence and I reminded myself of how things looked for the Irish just immediately after the Easter Rising. There was little support for the anti-British revolution until Westminster turned the screw. It was at that point that the ordinary punter said, “This is not fair, get the British out”.

      Will the power grab amount to the same thing for the Scottish punter? Who knows?

    21. Ken500 says:

      Very sad day today but extremely good, great hopes for the future.

      Just Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for FFA/Indepenence. Do not waver. Ever Whatever lies are told.. Or a criminal MSM. Getting away with murder.

      Stand united and firm for prosperity, equality and happiness. Never be sucked in by Westminster chronic, mismanagement and criminality. Lying greedy criminals and sychophaths. Crimes against humanity.

    22. galamcennalath says:

      Funny how the far fetched and improbable promises made to win the EURef are being taken seriously and attempts are being made to deliver them.

      Yet the far fetched and improbable promises made win IndyRef1 were immediately cast aside.

      Too wee … nope
      Too poor … nope
      Too stupid … jury’s still out on that one

      Latest polls say two thirds of under 35 Scots want Indy. It’s my fellow over 55s who are holding Scotland back.

    23. Walter Scott says:

      The British establishment and Scottish unionists have long known that people can’t keep up a level of activism indefinitely. They know things will blow over and that’s exactly what has happened. I get the impression that the people have “shrugged” More promises will be made if there’s a next time and we’ll buy it. The weird thing is, all the bad reasons that would ensure Scottish independence would be a disaster are the very same reasons that Brexit will be an amazing success.

    24. Desimond says:

      To all intent and purposes, the games done.

      We blew it. Shat it big style.

      The powers that be are still the powers that be and any calls for IndyRef2 will be laughed out the park so loudly that the next obvious step is closing Holyrood.

      You think people would care enough to revolt? No chance, its the same people who live in this current Union and couldn’t care less who governs them as long as they are aok.

      Sad but true. We blew it and if your gonna punch someone bigger than you, you have to make sure they go down, we didn’t.

    25. Moonlight says:

      Not entirely off topic.

      Does anyone have a link to a definitive list of items included in the Vow and the subsequent outcomes of the Smith Commission?

      Such a document would allow easy rebutal of claims made by the remaining No voters that we were not lied to by Better Together.

      We are not all ace debaters so a documented reference would be most helpful.

    26. SeanW92 says:

      3 years ago today some friends and I sat celebrating my 22nd birthday, watching the results come in, anticipating the rebirth of our nation. It seemed a sure thing from our perspective, how couldn’t it? We have been brought up in the digital age where the lies and slander from the MSM can be thought of as just that & countered through alternative forms of media via the internet which has become intuitive to my generation, the new norm. We were immersed in positivity, dreaming of what Scotland could be, what it could represent! What has transpired since, from the immediate downgrading of Scottish MP’s in the form of EVEL, The Smith Commission pantomime, EU referendum, Theresa May (and everything that she entails), Ruth-let-me-just-straddle-this-tank-Davidson pointing the finger shouting “No more referendums” – the saying you couldn’t make it up comes to mind! All this has served to do is strengthen our conviction, with every twist of the knife the inevitability of independence draws closer and if they come for our parliament, try to undo 20 years of progression under devolution, we’ll see who really has Scotland in their hearts, not your Tory gimps but the real champions of Scotland – The People!

      Peace and love brothers and sisters, today I celebrate my birthday and remember to never forget.

    27. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      heedtracker at 10.31

      Do you think we are all stupid on this site?

      The Scottish Government says
      “The decision over Catalonia’s future direction is a matter for the people who live there.”

      I can’t think of an any more explicit statement in support of a Catalonian referendum.

    28. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Three years ago today, Scotland bottled it. Almost uniquely in world history, its people turned down the chance to take control of their own affairs forever without a drop of blood being shed.”

      When you look at those simple words they have the power to produce tears of disbelief in the reader (well, in me at least).

      The Establishment will be dusting off its Vow Mk.2/More Powaaaars/Kittens in a Box for the next one and I can’t say I’m confident it won’t work again.

      Wake up, Scotland, your house is getting burgled.

    29. heedtracker says:

      https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/scottish-labour-leadership-candidates-pledge-oppose-independence

      Clear choice for Scots. Vote red tory, if you want to keep this farce union going, for another gen.

    30. Abulhaq says:

      @Kenny
      Wish the Kurds well but fear a positive result may throw them into a fire stoked by Ankara and Teheran. What is often forgotten by Westerners is that before the Kurds were dominant in the region the much depleted Syriac Christians and Yazidis as well as Turcomans etc had a presence and still seek some guaranteed autonomy for their communities. The Ottoman Turks employed Kurds in suppressing ‘disturbances’ among ethnic communities. The Armenian case ended in a proto-holocaust in which 1.5m died.
      Anything relating to the Near East must take account of the ancient minorities who inhabit the patchwork. The failure by the US and others to appreciate the ‘on the ground reality’ in Iraq added greatly to that country’s sorrows.

    31. galamcennalath says:

      Bill McDermott says:

      what it would take to shock Scotland into going for Independence

      I have always thought something unexpected will come out from under a stone and suddenly and unexpectedly swing opinion.

      I don’t know what that might be, however as I just pointed out in the post above, Indy support is inversely related to age. The majority of the young have already been converted. So, whatever does come along and swings it will have to be something which offends older people specifically.

      It has to be something which threatens the ‘cosy status quo’ so much that Indy becomes the low risk option IMO.

    32. winifred mccartney says:

      How many times do a people allow themselves to be conned and fooled – we are at the stage now that if Scotland were to vote no again – we would deserve all we get and then some.

      How do we convince people that we can only be better off independent and that we would certainly not be worse off. I think the bbc and msm have a lot to answer for with their constant drip drip of negativity – the bbc should be charged with undermining the psychic of the scottish people and the psychological damage resulting the poor mental and physical health of Scots.

      If you are told every day you are too wee, too poor and have no hope that is exactly what people will believe- think of domestic mental abuse and then think of bbc- it is national abuse of a nation – they should be hanging their heads in shame.

      It is only when people begin to notice for themselves – eg my dad was looking for pictures of Queensferry Crossing in msm the day after the opening and could not find any – I explained that that would show Scotland in too good a light and he was amazed but has begun to notice other things for himself.

      We need our own state broadcaster not London based and not biased towards anyone but fair, unbiased and not weighted against indy at all times

    33. Ken500 says:

      The Scottish Gov as remained neutral as it should on Catalonia/Spain/Independence as they should. The Spanish Gov stayed out of the Scottish Independence Ref. Both situations are extremely different. As all Indepence movements are very different. They should not even be considered for comparison without considering the differences. Despite deceptive accounts by a ignorant incompetent narrative by MSM and others.

      The Catalonian authorities are acting unlawful under Spansh Law with no mandate from the majority of people in Catalonia//Spain. Enabling the wealthiest province to discriminate agsinst others. The Law should be overhauled. Antiquated. Same in the UK. Law is antiquated and out of date being used and abused by Westminster corrupt, criminal politicians. They break the Law at every opportunity. People in Catalonia have total autonomy. In Scotland they do not. A totally different situation.

      Right over might. Right and wrong. Nothing to do with nationalism.

      A land tax in Scotland would benefit and enrich landowners and discriminate against the poorer and the wider economy.. Putting up the price of land, food, jobs and homes. Damaging the economy. It has not been properly thought though. as usual.

    34. heedtracker says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      18 September, 2017 at 10:48 am
      heedtracker at 10.31

      Do you think we are all stupid on this site?

      Scottish government are just stating fact.

      “The Edinburgh Agreement was an example of how two governments, with diametrically opposed views on whether or not Scotland should become independent, were able to come together to agree a process to allow the people to decide.
      “It is essential that democracy and civil rights are respected in all countries.”

      It really is.

      Also Dave, your language selection is a bit weird, WoS is not your “site.” Its someone’s politics blog, that you can btl comment on.

      If you have a pro Scottish independence “site,” you can then get possessive of and ofcourse call it this “site.”

      OK:D

    35. Footsoldier says:

      I live in a what would be regarded as a prosperous area. Locally, there are more than a few older people who voted Yes in 2014 and there are absolutely loads of what would be called youngish professionals who voted No and will definitely still do so. It is not as simple as age.

      There is still a missing ingredient in this debate, probably a superb orator with real vision, a competent speaker is not enough.

      It is hard to ignore Catalonia turning out a million plus to protest in Madrid against our 1500 turnout in Glasgow.

    36. Richard MacKinnon says:

      I have never heard the term ‘rub down’ before but that is exactly what is happening now. Those that voted Yes 3 years ago are getting rubbed down. No won, and to the victors, the spoils.
      Its reassuring that the Reverend’s observational skills are as sharp as ever.

    37. Ken500 says:

      The Scottish (SNP) gov requested permission to nationalise the rail services. The Westminster Gov refused permmission. HS2 is a total waste of money of little value. Wasting £Billions of taxpayers money. Scottish taxpayers has to fund this failure with absolutely no benefit. Detrimental to the Scottish economy and residents who had no input to the decision. Making train services in the UK take longer. A false economy. Improvements should be made to the present services and connectivity improved in the north of England and Scotland They have lacked investment for years. To improve tail services throughout Britain.

    38. I suspect that the comment from Scotland’s external affairs Secretary Fiona Hyslop that the ongoing dispute, over the decision of Catalonia’s future direction, is a matter for the people who live there.”

      That she and other members of the Scottish Government don’t want to be seen by the rest of the world as interfering in the internal political decisions of another country’s affairs.

      We had enough of that during the 2014 independence referendum, when David Cameron said it was up the people of Scotland to decide whether we became independent or not.

      But of course that didn’t stop Cameron and other unionists from trying to illicit the help of Spanish politicians, the Australian prime Minister, Obama Hilary Clinton or anyone else they could to persuade to tell the people of Scotland that they were better to remain being Governed by Westminster.

      As for the false promise and lies told by the unionists during the independence referendum, you would have thought that those who lived through the 1978/9 devolution referendum would have learned the lesson by now.

    39. cearc says:

      galamcennalath,

      The point to get over is that Indy is the ‘safe’ option now.

      Scotland in EU, much the same but with all our assets and probable improvements.

      Better pensions? Currently the lowest in EU and below the EU standard.
      Cheaper electricity? We won’t have to pay more to ‘cover the cost’ of sending it to England.

      Scotland in UK and out of EU, who knows? Leap in the dark but sure to be problematic for years.

      Pensions already under attack.
      Electricity, If England has to pay more for its imports from Fr. and NL I am sure our prices will go up, they currently go up when the import price goes up even though we are a net exporter.

      Indy IS the ‘safe’ option now.

    40. Ian McCubbin says:

      Not surprised this is take back of piwer from Holyrood by steps to WM and elevation of Secretary of State as governer general.road to Indy in SNP hands for a short window to act. I believe they have till 2020.

    41. galamcennalath says:

      cearc says:

      The point to get over is that Indy is the ‘safe’ option now.

      I agree that already the Union and the UK look risky, but it’s not quite sufficiently clear cut and certain to be the keystone of a YES campaign IMO.

      For instance, we might drift into a 3 year transition period after Brexit where nothing dramatic happens. When things happen gradually, people tend to acquiesce. When something happens suddenly, they sit up and take notice,

      The fire is smouldering. Something needs to give it a good poking. The Tories will come up with something shortly, I’m certain!

    42. Roger says:

      Who are the three guys at the bottom of the vow? They seem familiar. Were they on the telly for a while?

    43. cearc says:

      Winifred,

      So tell them the good news.

      John Robertson’s http://www.scoop.it/t/talking-up-scotland

      New articles this morning:
      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2017/09/18/dunfermline-based-firm-secures-contract-to-supply-subsea-equipment-for-huge-oilfield-west-of-shetland/

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2017/09/18/boom-in-scottish-tourism-and-in-film-and-tv-production-to-be-enhanced-by-edinburgh-university-and-national-museums-of-scotland-mooc/

      There’s a couple of blether at the bus stop/ coffee morning topics.

      I really think that we, as individuals, need to exploit this period without an official campaign to plant seeds and inform friends, family, neighbours, workmates, anyone you can strike up a conversation with.

      Once a campaign starts people tend to take a stance from which it is harder to shift them, the ‘well you would say that wouldn’t you’ attitude.

    44. HandandShrimp says:

      There are two issues here, existing powers and additional powers. Mundell promised a bonanza of additional powers and no diminution of exiting powers.

      Our position is quite straight forward on existing powers. Any attempt to weaken Holyrood is a red line. On additional powers, the area is grey because the Tories have not been specific. However, Mundell has set the bar high very publicly, we need to hold him to that promise.

      On the weird story about the yoon and his flag. I did the whole march. There was about 15 unionist and half a dozen flags (and a mad guy with a megaphone) at the bottom of Union Street. No one was attacked. I never saw the lone flagman at any point. Is this one of those Damian from Drop the Dead Donkey stories?

    45. Dr Jim says:

      Until the Daily Mail prints it on the front page and the BBC and STV broadcast it on our tellys the demographic who voted NO will never move to YES

      It’ll only be the middle “I don’t know voters” and the “Didnae vote at all voters” we have a chance with

      The NO side will pull the Yeah but you’ll be even worse off out of everything now rubbish and that first group WILL fall for it again, and we all know the reasons why

      Even if I die I’ll die British, No Surrender check their loyal Tattoos and get out their relatives war medals for another reminder of how great Britain is
      They don’t even know what they’re No Surrendering about, they do talk a lot about the dead the dying and the soon to be dead though

      Strange bunch the British Nationalists

    46. asklair says:

      Reply to posts about John Muir. “History is not the past. It is the stories we tell about the past”.
      “How John Muir’s Brand of Conservation Led to the Decline of Yosemite”
      https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/primate-diaries/how-john-muir-s-brand-of-conservation-led-to-the-decline-of-yosemite/

      Reply to “That’s a very Brit Scot view, or just the usual British attitude to Scots like Muir.” That’s a very degrading statement to a fellow Scot, who may not be educated to your elite standard. At least I can recognise that the indigenous people of North America knew more about their land and culture than a “white settler” called John Muir.

    47. Liz g says:

      Handshrimp @ 11.41
      There was a lone flag guy.
      He was at the bit the bin lorry crashed into, moving towards the city chambers.
      This was later in the day… mibbi around one.
      Some did cross the road but I didn’t see what happened next.
      Like most I was struggling to care about some asshole trying to provoke a reaction.
      But nae police turned up so it couldn’t have been anything serious.

    48. Alastair Naughton says:

      Sorry, but this should ACTUALLY read “Fooled You Three Times”. The first time was in. 1979, when Margaret Thatcher promised a “much better” deal on devolution IF ONLY we rejected what was on offer at the time, and then elected a Tory government at the following election. The rest is history! So it is in fact THREE TIMES we’ve been fooled. How gullible are some people? How selfish are others?

    49. David, C says:

      Some of the tribes will be gathering this weekend , yes a football game will be taking place in Glasgow, i ask everyone to be on their best behavior, and remember people, its only a game, lets show the world the true scotland, the scotland we all love and adore, Peace and love to all

    50. Capella says:

      David Mundell is a patsy. He’s not even one of the Ministers in the “Exiting the EU” Department. It’s an English affair and he just says what he’s told to say. Toom Tabard.

      @ asklair – I’ve read the blog you link to. How can John Muir be held responsible for the actions of the US army’s “war of extermination” in 1851? The Yosemite National Park was founded in 1906 as the article states; more than 50 years later.

    51. galamcennalath says:

      Failing to deliver Scottish aspirations is nothing new.

      Alastair Naughton says:

      1979

      Indeed!

      Scottish self determination, and widespread support of it, isn’t a recent phenomenon as the Unionist version of history would like to portray it.

      The British Empire was so big on the world stage that it’s components, prior to WW2, sought ‘Home Rule’ rather than full independence. Even Ireland only achieved the self-governing Irish Free State with dominion status in 1922.

      The Scottish Labour Party (1888), with Keir Hardy as one of its founders, and the successor Independent Labour Party (1893) supported Home Rule.

      In 1913 the House of Commons passed the second reading of the Government of Scotland Bill 1913 (also referred to as the Scottish Home Rule Bill) by 204 votes to 159. The bill was supported by Liberals and opposed by Unionists. It did not proceed further due to the outbreak of the First World War.

      In 1924 Labour MP George Buchanan proposed a new Home Rule Bill however to was talked out by the opposition in Parliament.

      The SNP first won a parliamentary seat at the Motherwell by-election in 1945.

      The Scottish Covenant of 1949 was a petition to create a home rule Scottish parliament. This was signed by over two million people. It was ignored by Westminster.

      Paradoxically the Unionist successes in the 1951 & 1955 elections in Scotland have been attributed in part due to the promotion of the idea that Labour were over-centralising and taking power away from Scotland.

      1950-70 was an era of vast publicly owned house building, welfare state, NHS, free education, unemployment at ~2%, new factories built everywhere. And both Labour and Tories contributed. For most folks the UK and the Union didn’t seems so bad.

      Mid 70s onwards, the Union began to look not such a good option again.

    52. Colin Alexander says:

      Three years ago today, Scotland bottled it.

      Did they?

      Was it no the SNP / Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon that bottled it and many of the people saw that?

      Instead of campaigning for full indy, AS/NS went for the half-way house of economic union with the UK with parliamentary independence from WM. But presented it as full indy.

      Economic union with parliamentary indy / sovereignty is fair enough if offered as that: not fully indy, just parliamentary indy. But it was presented as full indy.

      The problem there is the Union campaign then exposed the flaws in the quasi-independence campaign: the UK Govt would not agree to it, so taunted AS: where’s your plan B?

      I could go on pointing out flaws in the Scot Govt campaign, but right from the start they were outflanked by a YES / NO referendum question, that the SNP opposed, but like they always do, backed down and went with what the UK Govt said.

      NO was open to any interpretation, as it was not stated in writing what NO meant, other than NO to independence.

      So, we had The Vow: empty promises that were never on offer ( in the ballot paper).

      Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon were not so much donkeys leading lions, but jack asses leading people by the nose in a YES campaign that was a huge grass roots success, let down by a Scot Govt that compromised the campaign from the start by agreeing to UK Govt demands, that sowed the seeds for the failure of the campaign.

      John Swinney had also made it clear what the SNPs economic argument would be in talks with the Bank of England who informed the UK Govt, so before the campaign even started the Union campaign had that joker prepared, as they saw the clear weakness in the YES campaign: what do they do when the UK says NO to economic union?

      SNP then, SNP now, compromise, a wishy-washy muddle, mediocre, play it safe.

      That has won them 10 years as WM’s administrators of devolution, because Labour and the Tories in Scotland have been even worse, but it disnae win you independence for your country.

      So, heid oot the sand. Don’t blame it all on the feartie voters of Scotland: blame the fearties John Swinney, Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond who were too scared to campaign for 100% independence and played it safe with sharing the £ pound and Bank of England running the Scottish economy.

    53. Ottomanboi says:

      The matter of how to handle the Catalan question is rather interesting. It takes us out of the ‘comfort zone’ of our own political backyard into the EU and global playgrounds where we might be required to have an opinion. In a way it’s a mock exam on how we might fare as an independent state with membership of international organizations. Our attitude vis a vis independence for Catalunya ought to indicate true empathy in the face of views circulating in foreign ministries so redolent of the opinions freely expressed regarding our own unresolved case. J-C Juncker’s ‘back of the queue’ comment immediately springs to mind.
      Spain is an interesting mashup of themes, Gibraltar, Ceuta and Melilla being diplomatically noteworthy.

    54. Craig P says:

      Unfortunately, people *want* to be lied to. Most of us on both sides have already made up our minds. A unionist will lap up the GERS deficit headlines and stick their fingers in their ears against anything that contradicts it.

      We still have to keep up the pressure though. My preferred line is to compare Scotland to other small N European countries – all more prosperous and healthy than us – and end with a quote from an 18th century colonist who scoffed at the idea that his colony could make it alone. The reason being that the official books clearly showed that his colony was subsidised by Britain and if they went alone they would soon be bankrupt. The name of this colony? The United States of America.

    55. heedtracker says:

      Colin Alexander says:
      18 September, 2017 at 12:33 pm
      Three years ago today, Scotland bottled it.

      Did they?

      Was it no the SNP / Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon that bottled it and many of the people saw that?

      Colin A, youre the Rock’s fart catcher now but maybe you can explain why the UK’s devo-max, federal UK The Vow historic shyste suddenly got blasted into the Scots 2014 ref, at the last minute, if you are right and it WAS the SNP / Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon that bottled it?

      That’s what this post is all about today Colin A, Rock’s fart catcher in chief.

    56. asklair says:

      “@ asklair – I’ve read the blog you link to. How can John Muir be held responsible for the actions of the US army’s “war of extermination” in 1851? The Yosemite National Park was founded in 1906 as the article states; more than 50 years later.”
      The blog title was “How John Muir’s Brand of Conservation Led to the Decline of Yosemite” Read all of it then get back to me, the ““war of extermination” was there to explain one of the factors which denied the indigenous people the ability to care for their land and later on it explains the damaged caused to their land by a “white settler” (my words) John Muir. I have never spoken to an indigenous person from that part of our planet, but I do recognise that the “white mans” history probably didnt happened there in the past. I am not saying my view is correct just saying what John Muir is given credit for is question by the indigenous people. Back to the present, I beleive I do know better what’s good for my birthland than outsiders from Westminster.

    57. frogesque says:

      Oooohhh look! Shiney beads for us sweaty socks from the masters of our goldmine!

      Ok, so let’s get off our knees, take over the goldmine and work for ourselves!

    58. Lenny Hartley says:

      Re Yosemite, travelling in California a pal and I visited, it’s one of the most amazing views on the planet as you come though a tunnel and Yosemite Valley spread out below you. We pulled into a layby and there was a coach load of Japanese tourists getting the official history which went something like this “Yosemite Valley was discovered by the 7th Calvary who were chasing some injuns who stayed here” I said excuse me Sir, I’m not in your group but did you say that Yosemite was discovered by the 7th Calvary etc. He said yes that’s correct. surely I said if the Indians the Calvary were chasing lived here then they discovered the Yosemite Valley and not the 7th Calvary? never heard his response due to noise coming from the Japanese as the penny dropped that there is a difference between Imperial history and actual history.

    59. Arbroath1320 says:

      Hmm, Scruffy Fluffy the man from nowwhere bumping his chops about his beloved broken union meanwhile back in good old Blighty his mate Michael “I’ll stab you in the back as good as look at you” Gove has upset the Scottish farmers and not for the first time I reckon.

      Perhaps NOW the farmers and fishermen who voted for these greed driven earseholes in the Tory party will realise that by continually voting like this they will be continually screwed!

    60. North chiel says:

      “Galamcennalth at 1042” , “over 55’s holding Scotland back”. The pensions issue could be a
      clear vote winner in any 2nd referendum. If the Scottish government undertake to (1) Compensate the waspi women for been ” robbed” by Westminster of circa 5 years of pension payments (2) undertake to reverse the increase in the state pension age to 65 for all Scottish taxpayers . ( 3) undertake to increase the ” Scottish state pension ” to the ” European average ” over the term of the term of the first ” Independent parliament”. The post referendum negotiations with the London government and subsequent financial settlement should include either (1) a capital settlement from Westminster to cover current & future pension liabilities they are responsible for , to enable the Scottish state to administer all state pension provision or (2) a undertaking from Westminster to continue to pay their obligations ( and to compensate for any currency fluctuations between Scottish pound and sterling) , together with an ongoing Scottish state top up 2nd pension .
      I am of the opinion that a clear undertaking on pensions from our SNP government would make the ” over 55 demographic take notice” and could be highly significant during Indyref2 campaign.

    61. galamcennalath says:

      North chiel says:

      clear undertaking on pensions from our SNP government

      Yes. Agree totally with everything you say.

      Lots of little thing add up, but there are two BIG issues …. get the young off their arses and voting …. and promise that iScotland will treat its pensioners at least as well as the EU average, or even better.

    62. HandandShrimp says:

      Liz G

      Never saw the guy but by 1pm we were all at George Square and had been for a while so this must have been some post-march handbags at dawn.

      I am still leaning to a Drop the Dead Donkey “exclusive”.

    63. Richard MacKinnon says:

      Reverend,
      You are nearly there. You know who is to blame.
      “Three years ago today, Scotland bottled it”. Follow your instinct.
      Don’t blame the enemy now of using dirty tactics back then. This is politics and there are no rules. Do as I did immediately after 17/09/14, accept the result and get on with your life.

    64. Robert Peffers says:

      Seems to me that there is an ever growing number of people not being fooled again but some seem to be quite reluctant to admit it as yet. Which is of course why they are not among the younger strata of Scotland’s population.

      The obvious fact is that of course the still committed Yoons tend to be drawn from an older demographic because the older a person is the less likely they are to have been an SNP supporter all their life.

      When I was a young SNP supporter we were very thin on the ground. We were surrounded by overwhelming numbers of Yoons yet the good news is we didn’t get overwhelmed. So of course the remaining YoonYoonists are mainly older why, though, is there the daft idea still held by some that being old makes you inclined to be YoonYoonist.

      That’s cairt afore cuddy it is being Yoonyoonist that makes you inclined to be old.

    65. t42 says:

      What alot of trolls today. Edinburgh school holidays.

    66. Alba Jock says:

      “Scottish” supressed people of the North!

      Maybe we are? There is a majority of us who are content with the constant beliefs of another nation. (England) The motherland?

      Only if you are a yoonie’? For me let them continue to break our back. It is getting them nowhere.

      Last week I was shocked and pleased at the same time to hear of a group of acquaintances who most likely voted NO! Seemingly they are and would vote YES going forward they are the ones who have seen beyond the smokescreen of lies. EU friendly and know politically aware. Too much for me, but, if correct I will stand with them going forward.

      We should stand behind Holyrood our parliament in waiting to support every angle they choose to prod WM with.

      After all it is fair to say they are the only Scots supporting us! Muddle? Sorry Mundell is the snake in the grass when you see his lips’ move he’s a lyin’.

    67. Alex Clark says:

      @Richard MacKinnon

      “Do as I did immediately after 17/09/14, accept the result and get on with your life.”

      I’m sure you meant the 18/09/14 but regardless if as you claim you are getting on with your life after the referendum can you explain why exactly you are here pontificating and telling the writer of this blog what he should be doing?

    68. newburghgowfer@jokeroonie1101 says:

      I was out on Saturday and 1 so called yes supporter wants out of EU as too many politicians and Holyrood should be cut because they support Eu but no valid reason!! Really a Tory !! and this clown said I voted Tory and I asked if he agreed with zero hour contracts but that’s the Snps fault. I thought i was the joker !! 2 less nuggets to drink with now ?

    69. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Richard MacKinnon @ 14:23,

      Seeing the prospect of my future, and more importantly, that of my kids, being comprehensively trashed by a bunch of lying swindlers, I’m finding it very difficult (that is to say impossible) to just “get on with my life”.

      As if nothing was happening. No high-handed outrage being committed by incompetents in the spurious “name of the people”.

      The contemporary saying is very true: “if you’re not angry, you’re not paying attention”.

      Or in the thrall of some soporific, either chemical or ideological.

    70. K1 says:

      Just ignore Richard, Robert, he’s known as Dick to his pals for a good reason. 😉

    71. Gfaetheblock says:

      The start of this article shows why yes is not progressing. Scotland did not bottle it and to tell no voter this will hardly win them over. SNP/yes lost the referendum, by failing to have a convincing case. I was not sold on it, nor were a majority of scots.

    72. Petra says:

      @ SeanW92 says at 10:47 am … ”3 years ago today some friends and I sat celebrating my 22nd birthday, watching the results come in, anticipating the rebirth of our nation. It seemed a sure thing from our perspective, how couldn’t it? …….

      Peace and love brothers and sisters, today I celebrate my birthday and remember to never forget.”

      Well I hope that this has been a happier birthday for you Sean than the one that you had in 2014. Next year’s will be even better, I’m sure. Happy Birthday and best wishes for the coming year X

    73. Capella says:

      @ asklair – you ask me to read the whole article – I did. You ask me to get back to you – I did.
      You blame a conservationist for the persecution of North American native people. That is, frankly, ridiculous.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Muir#Preservation_efforts

    74. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Overhead a conversation between two ladies at work today the older lady, an angry soul, was explaining to the younger lady Scotland is too poor etc.

      I interjected because I couldn’t help myself.

      Have you read the McCrone report I enquired.

      She responded whats that, some SNP thing?.

      Doh. We have some way to go.

    75. Hamish100 says:

      Graeme– do you agree you were sold a pup or at least several

      Still the uk is in debt, we are still dropping bombs on Syria , the vow was a lie several times over.

      We are not as gullible as you.

    76. David says:

      Call me a bastard (which i am on occasion) but I get a small sense of satisfaction that the people who mostly voted ‘no’ out of concerns for their future are:

      A: EU nationals who got the vote on Scottish independence and then turned it on us
      B: pensioners

      Karma being what it is, these are looking at an uncertain future in Scotland like the future they fkd for Scots (especially the young) through sheer brain dead selfishness.

      The only reason the Scottish people got a legally binding referendum on Independence is because the establishment were asleep at the wheel. They shat themselves on the run up to the referendum and it will be a cold day in hell before they make that mistake again. In fact, Scots will be doing well to still have their devolved parliament in 10 years.

      Not a great silver lining, but im gaining some grim satisfaction from it.

    77. Gfaetheblock says:

      Hamish – I never really took the no offer than anything more than electioneering, I personally think the vote was a panicky mistake (ditto EVEL) but what no did just about well enough was pop the Yes offering to middle Scotland. All parties disappoint, the losers in every referendum will decry the winners as liars, the keypoint is winning (the lies of out concern me more than yes/no/in combined, but all the electorate has learned is that you can say anything to win and deal with the consequences later)

    78. Gfaetheblock says:

      I meant the view was a mistake, but suspect the vote being a mistake will be a more popular point!

    79. Richard MacKinnon says:

      Robert J. Sutherland 18 September, 2017 at 4:14 pm

      I try and not get angry these days, emotions cloud your judgement. I look at events and try and put them in to a historical perspective.

      The union has been around for 300+ years. Whether you like it or not it has worked. The Scottish parliament has been around for 20 years. The SNP won a majority and in doing so held a referendum on independence as was their right to do so. It was a momentous democratic event. Had the decision been Yes the repercussions would have changed the map of Europe.

      The result was No.

      I could be wrong but I think the result has strengthened the union. Confirmed it for ever. I voted Yes but I accept the result. Unionists are right to rubbish any talk of a second referendum. It will never happen. Think of how outraged you would be if it had been a majority for Yes in 2014 and a bunch of unionists had never accepted it and were demanding a second referendum three years later to overturn the decision and return an independent Scotland to union with England. Think about how angry you would be then.

    80. Richard MacKinnon says:

      Alex Clark @ 18 September, 2017 at 4:01 pm

      Call it missionary work. I’m shining a light into dark places. Someone has to do it.

    81. David says:

      @ Richard Mackinnon

      Generally I agree with what you say. My own personal advice to young scots is to use our currently free education and get skills and develop a professional mindset in order to have the choices you want in life. Its more important now than ever.

      However, the minute the Scottish patriots budge an inch to Westminster they will take a mile, as they always have done. In my view the argument isnt so much about getting them to agree to a 2nd indy ref (they never will) but making sure they are cautious about shafting us too hard too often.

      As ive said before – every pro Union voice in Scotland invites that giant red, white and blue union dick to screw every single one of us over for the rest of our lives and to tell us we are weak, ignorant and stupid that we need to be shafted for our own good.

      Although I have no illusions about Scottish independence for the time being, the struggle must continue for every single little issue and to maintain a basis for whenever a chance comes over the horizon.

      This isnt just any political issue or decision. Its a struggle for our rights as free people.

      The good thing is that every year that passes brings more support as the wool gets lifted off more eyes.

    82. Artyhetty says:

      i only just saw this whole article, damn. Two days late.

      Looking at these last few comments, ie, ‘David’ and ‘Richard’ what poppycock you speak. You clearly know absoluteky fck all about history. Even in the last century, when a plebiscite was held and 2 million people in Scotland voted for Scotland, their own country, to have a devolved government of some kind. The so called referendum in 1979, where the Labour party introduced the ‘40%’ rule, ie turnout, and they did it last minute they also counted the dead as no voters and non voters as no voters to keep Scotland shackled.

      So the ‘union has worked’! In whose interests? The unionists have kept Scotland poor, kept the people poor and stolen land and resources while telling the people of Scotland they are too damn stupid and their country is too damn small and would sink inot the sea without their (abusive) neighbour to take all of their revenues and send a few crunbs back!

      The so called ‘union’ was secured after the English basically shafted Scotland, (Darien) and starved the people out! Any resistance was brutally repressed by the English.

      Add to that just what the britnats did and said to secure their ‘win’ in 2014, and your whole argument of what “would people do if the result had been a yes and the no voters demanded another referendum”, is clearly absolute bo****ks.

      If the result had been a YES, there would be no grounds for a re run. The Scottish government did not come out with massive lies and a ‘vow’. A ‘vow’. Jeez, on top of ‘project fear’, better together and constant scare mongering, with 100% of the media tv and radio and dilay rags, being anti SNP,
      anti Alex Salmond, anti independence, and people are exoected to shut up now and put up!

      No thanks. Oh and I think you will find that the Scottish government, our democratically elected government, are quite capable of encouraging our young people and others in fact, to take up the opportunities which they have created in education. Also, even the richest, even the britnats benefit from a free education, ie no tuition fees in Scotland, as well as no prescrition charges. It’s how it should be, but do they want little Oliver or princess to end up with 30-50£s of debt. They pull up the ladder behind them these britnats, but only for others, not their own.

      Scotland will not get back in the box, and accept that the ‘union’ is working for Scotland because Scotland is having to work for the union, while being shafted big time. So your poppycock about Scotland accepting the result, given the grounds on which that result was secured, just does not hold up at all.

    83. David says:

      @ Artyhetty

      Please, wipe the rabid foam from your chin and actually read what ive said. Im pro independence and agree with most of what you said.

      However, im a realist and what ive said about the chances of the establishment agreeing by its own free will to another referendum stands true to anyone who doesnt live with their head up their arse…or who can actually read something before criticising it.

      Who needs the Britnats when you have pro indy people as thick as you?

    84. james stewart anderson says:

      A PSYCHOLOGICAL ASSESMENT OF PARLIAMENTARIAN BEHAVIOUR SINCE THE TURN OF THE MILLENIUM; THE FALSENESS OF ACCEPTANCE THAT PEOPLE WILL GET HURT BY THEIR ACTIONS
      In order to understand the title false acceptance one has to look at previous behaviour of parliamentarians, their behaviour only restricted by themselves as no parliamentarian since Cromwell has agreed to be policed under the same laws as the people.

      The path of acceptance of what parliament think they can get away with before the people revolt and hang them all from a tree goes way, way back, but for the point of this assesment and provable attitudes I will start in the 18th century.

      With this in mind we can turn to “press gangs”, Impressments was vigorously enforced during the naval wars of the 18th century by Acts passed in 1703, 1705, 1740 and 1779.

      This meant that your dad or brother or son could be out for a wander to get some stores in and suddenly be hit on the head with a cosh and wake up on a ship in the middle of the sea, press ganged into service of the crown.

      For soldiers forced into service of the day, who could not just be mugged off and left to wake up at sea, where one can’t run away, the way this was done was far more devious.

      You would be out having a beer with your mates and a local recruitment officer would put a shilling IN your beer when you have drunk enough not to notice, by swallowing the kings shilling you had lawfully agreed to take up service to the crown, which is why you still find glass bottom beer tankers in antique shops, these beer mugs let you see the bottom of your own dam beer hasn’t been laced with the Kings shilling

      By accepting the shilling of the crown in any manner, even involuntary, you were now in the army.

      So with those two attitudes one can clearly see the absolute contempt parliamentarians had for the people they were professing to represent.

      When Ian Duncan Smith (MP) went to Germany to visit the Nazi death-camps one would have thought that this would have traumatised him enough to understand human suffering at the hands of governments, instead the very next year this man, in a speech, said he would remove 100,000 people from the benefits bill, stating “work makes you free” in another speach soon after that one.

      Within a few years of that statement 100,000 British citizens are dead.
      How they died was through psychological invalidation, enforced sanctions, psychological abuse, and many having died soon after being declared “fit for work” by the DWP under the authority of IDS.

      I wrote a piece about 5 years ago because I was concerned about “the health directorate” because in the directorate from parliament it stated the unavoidable inevitability of people getting hurt with the upcoming changes to our benefits system.
      (The post is on FB somewhere I will hunt it down)

      The part that I kept on going back to in my head was “unavoidable hurt”, this was accepting without a shadow of doubt people would get hurt, even though it was avoidable.

      Unavoidable hurt has buried 100,000 of our own people that is not unavoidable hurt; this is the social cleansing of 100,000 people persecuted till they killed themselves because they understood our own parliament thought they were valueless.

      Animals are allowed a better execution than that.

      But to return to “unavoidable hurt”, unavoidable hurt smacks of justifiable homicide, this being used many times by the authorities to justify the death of one of their own constituents.

      When someone representing you under any flag can have the power to “unavoidably hurt” you it makes a mockery of representation, because you would not allow a representative of your own to hurt you, it would be quite disturbing if you did.

      So on that point, you would not allow your own representative to hurt you, why are the 560 representatives of this 100,000 dead people not in court for not representing these people as they were being persecuted to death.

      Not one of those 100,000 human dead was represented before, during or after this persecution leading to their deaths.

      And the deaths, persecution, sanctions, psychological isolation, carry on relentlessly.

      So who is actually representing you if not one parliamentarian is representing our dead?

      You can clearly see that at not time in history have parliament ever represented “the people”, in fact the con tricks to get us to comply are more devious then psychological problems, because those in parliament do know what they are doing.

      The devious nature of all of the above removed any question of these people in parliament having any psychological issues except a fixation on getting our compliance irrespective of the means to do so.

      This fixation for our (the peoples) compliance irrespective of hurt says it all.

      The continued pathological denial of banking crimes and child rape and torture by all parliamentarians also has to be taken into account here as this is once again parliamentarians accepting avoidable hurt to our whole population in enforced poverty and the avoidable rape and torture of innocent children in our care system.

      The continued protection of the offenders of the above by our own representatives just makes a mockery of everything we were taught to believe, like liberty, equality, justice and freedom, because as can be clearly shown we have never had these things at all, and never will.

      That is the assessment, WE make the ending, because only we can.
      jsa



    Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.




    ↑ Top