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The nuclear umbrella

Posted on September 16, 2017 by

(Buy Chris Cairns’ second great book of cartoons here. Plus cuddly Hamish!)

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    325 to “The nuclear umbrella”

    1. Croompenstein says:

      Trident is as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike…

    2. Malky says:

      I always knew those big, black toxic metal underwater ship thingies would come in handy one day. Phew!

    3. Arthur Martin says:

      That deterrence argument is really working well here then. It’s costing us billions and it’s as much use as a chocolate teapot. In the meantime as the big shiny ones sail the seven seas, the old scrappers rust in peace at Rosyth just waiting to be an ecological disaster.
      Why can’t this country get off its knees, show a bit of pride, take belief in themselves, vote for Scottish Independence and get this monstrosiity the f**k out of our country?

    4. starlaw says:

      The purpose of having Trident on the Clyde is to create a must hit target for any aggressor. In the event of Nuclear war it has been decided by the Toff Boys in London its where the missiles are that will be target no 1, therefore London and the so called Home Counties will be spared as this is the most valuable asset any aggressor would want.
      As for Clydeside and central Scotland (there will be more than one bomb) well so what, we can build a monument to the dead and cry crocodile tears at it every year could even lay wreaths of Thistles and have an annual thistle day, should be a few bob in that.

    5. Sharney Dubs says:

      Just a nuke outpost for the US. Westminster are the lapdogs.

    6. P N Ralley says:

      But if we scrap trident, how will we defend the foodbanks??

    7. galamcennalath says:

      One of today’s links from @Nana seems particularly relevant ….

      http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/spending-cuts-leave-laughing-stock-royal-navy-only-able-use-quarter-its-warships-1639441

      A fortune spent on Trident, which is useless, and not enough money for conventional ships which can be used.

    8. Ken500 says:

      Excellent. OK, OK enough pressure. Will buy the book. Happy holidays in Spain and the rest of the world. For inspiration.

      Spain joined the EU in 1986. Joined the euro in 2002 after a 3 year transition period. Catalonia is an autonomous region of Spain. Not totally autonomous but as damn near to it as possible.

      Catalonia is comparable to a State of London S/E, extremely wealthy. Including housing fraud and speculation. Hapoehed in the Costas of the southern coast. Compared to the rest of northern Spain. A Pozzi/pyramid scheme of housing fraud and speculation. Johnny Foreigner defrauded. Many people lost their life savings. Too much superfluous, borrowing and sprctulstion. upon the London lending markets. Some people did very well out of it Defrauding and manipulating the rest of the people, with total disregard for those in poverty/need. Sucking it in. The equivalent of the Tories. ‘Pycho bastards.’ Not the poor under dogs as portrayed,

      The situation is entirely different in the UK, The Scottish Ibdependence movement is totally different for those reasons. When/if Caralonia votes No which is highly likely, based on previous voting patterns and the figures, It could/will be used as a stick against the Scottish Independence Movement. To try to beat it with. It will not succeed. The speculation. That is being set up. Lined up even as people speak by ignorant commentators, Do not buy into it. A false narrative by people who have nothing better to do. By not considering the difference. That is the danger of inconsudered interference.

      That has been done already by ignorant, incompetent ‘reporters’. This fakse narrative not borne out by the facts.but being reported. If they vote NO. It will be heralded false as a victory agaibst Independence Movements, especially Scotland’s. The MSM will have a field day.a fakse narrative that does not compute by comparison or the figures etc. The incompetent, ignorant MSM has already done that. Playing this false narrative of comparison. Despite the different circumstances,

      The Scottish Independence support is higher than support in Catalonia. (40%?) In Dcotland it is 50/50 and holding up well. Increasing? Despite external pressures.

      The EU/Eurozone are doing well after the financial crash, Thry have come out the other side with growth and higher productivity and prosperity. Clamping down on the tax evaders who pay no tax on vast profits anywhere in the world. Clamping down on fraud and corruption in the common agriculture zone, encouraging green policies and an equal fair trade dealing, Open to all members saving fuel and energy and advocating equality and fairness. Supporting those who need it all around the world.

      The rest of the UK economy is tanking. Scotlabd is only bearing up because of the )SNP) Gov and their advantageous policies. Standing up for ascotlabd. Just keep on voting SNP/SNP. Vote for FFA/Indepenence. Simple. For Scotland to be more prosperous, equal, fairer and happier. It works if you let it. It doesn’t if you don’t. One day at a time. We will overcome. We will overcome. We will overcome. One day soon.

      It will be all set up. A central bank etc. This time it will not fail. Go for it when the time is right. Lessons have been learnt. A realignment with the sun and the moon, The runes have been thrown. The spider fed. The spells have been spun like a spiders web. Rehomed and rezoned. The skills rehoned. The concoction brewed. The planets are re aligning with the stars, moon and sun (not that one), in the right orbit. Let the unionists fall into the trap, of their own making. This time the time will be right . The Referendum will be won. FFA/Independence in Europe,

      Leave the Catalons/Spain to get on with their own affairs and find their solution. Unique to them.

      Go on the internet . PThe narrative is there. It take 5 to 10 mins. Instead of regurgitating nonsense. To find out what is really going on. The transcript available. Stop peddling the myths. It is a unionist trap. Spun by extremely corrupt, immoral people.

    9. Bob p says:

      Arthur martin 7.53am. Do Scots do pride martin?Or is it just whingeing?

    10. Robert Peffers says:

      With the all too obvious incompetence of the United Kingdom government, that we can all see on a daily basis.

      If the United Kingdom ever considered using the USA owned deterrent that is based in Scotland the UK incompetents would forget to change the original targets and take out several Russian strategic targets.

      That would then start WWIII between the USA and Russia with both of these World Powers targeting the United Kingdom in general and the Clyde in particular.

    11. Stoker says:

      Excellent, Chris, thank you!

      Croompenstein wrote on 16 September, 2017 at 7:06 am:
      “Trident is as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike…”

      Aye, but it’s as deadly as anything you can get and dumped right on Scotland’s doorstep by London. And don’t go believing all the BritNat crap about anywhere else not being suitable to house them – total and utter guff, folks!

      There are several places along England’s south coast more than suitable for hosting these warmongering toys of destruction but the true reasons for not hosting them in one of those locations are as obvious as the nose on your face. The main one being they would be far too close to London.

      Get wise, Scotland, and get these phallic symbols removed from our territory, *ASAP*. Tell London to find a new toy box for storing them because we’re keeping the current one in the divorce settlement, it’s our land!

    12. Bob p says:

      Sorry arthur,meant to use your christian name.

    13. Arthur Martin says:

      No worries Bob, I’ve got one of those names made up of two Chrisrian names, it happens a lot and I don’t mind.
      As for do the Scots have pride….well I sometimes wonder about that. I suppose 3 hundred years of being told you’re a useless insignificant waster whose country is a shithole and worthless gets to some people. I say to the naysayers “get it right roond yez” and get on with the business of trying to get this country the Independence it richly deserves. Have a good day matey, it’s going to be a good weekend.

    14. Grouse Beater says:

      That’ll be the Doomsday Clock on the wall, Chris! If ever there was a demagogue ready to scorch the world it’s Trump – and the tragedy is he has fans who will cheer him on as the flames engulf them too!

      :Your knockout weekend reading:

      The Hassan Hustle: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-kap
      Of man and native: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-kAw

    15. Smallaxe says:

      The most dangerous WMDs in Scotland are delivered daily by the MSM. Weapons of Mass Deception!

      Thank’s Chris.

    16. Dorothy Devine says:

      Just about to set off for the ferry but wanted to wish you all a happy , successful day in Freedom Square.

      I have no doubt that whether 1,000 or one million turn up the BBBC/STV will report ‘ over three hundred people attended’- that’s if they bother at all or find some useful cat stuck up a tree instead.

      Somebody give Ronnie a hug from me , thanks!

    17. HandandShrimp says:

      Perhaps Kim just wants deterrence too. We should all have one.

      On the train to do a bit of gathering of minds in Glasgow. It is a good day for freedom. Hope our perennial grumps are there too 🙂

    18. Undeadshaun says:

      @Ken500

      Im not so sure that catalan will vote no.

      In the last 24 hours spanish government have sent armed police into catalonia to sieze posters related to the fortcoming independence poll and are threatning to arrest mayors and newspaper editors.

      Given Catlonias history with Spain under Franco, this will likely make more people vote for independence.

      Spain have also said that nothing is off the table in how they will deal with this.

      Denmarks observers are already making complaints to spanish government over this.

    19. Ken500 says:

      Less building of naval vessels on the Clyde. Might be a blessing in disguise. Independence will free up the funds to invest and build frigates to patrol the shores, ferries, supply boats, turbines, liners etc. Goods that can be sold, Instead of spending £Billions to support jobs in Barrow in Furness on useless weaponry. (unite – McCluskey should retire. Past the sell by date. Dominating and funding Labour policy) Weaponry which will not be used in a month of Sundays. It can’t even be fired straight. Rotting on the Clyde. No deterrent, useless and worthless in any case. Fallon wants to start a war with Russia, Make personal funding out of it. Embezzling and wasting public money. Fallon should be retired. Living in the 1950’s. Past the sell by date. Not living in the times. Dinosaur.

      Thatcher restricted commercial activity on the Clyde.and used Faslane as an excuse.Dumped on Scotland secretly and without consent. by McMillan. Against the wishes of the Americans. 30 mins from one of Scotland’s biggest City and 2million folk in the central belt. It is no co incidence that under pressure and protest weaponry was remove from 20 mins of London in 1992.

      Thatcher secretly and illegally used the Oil revenues to build 26 miles of Tilbury Docks. Losing jobs and closing ports all around Britain. Centralising transport through London. Creating congestion, traffic chaos and pollution throughout the City. Damaging the overall economy and depopulating Scotland.

      The Tories in Westminster are Thatcher Mark 11, but even worse. If that was possible, The rest of the UK economy tanking because of Brexit. Scotland only bearing up because of SNP policies and standing up for Scotland. Scotland could do so much better with FFA/Independence. Losing £20Billion+ a year to Westmibster intransigence and mismanagement of the economy. .

      Brexit will mean the removal of Trident – US funding and support will be withdrawn. It is superulous to requirement in any case. Shared EU Defence costs will be lost. Brexit will mean a lot more will have to be spent on Defence. Another Westminster irrational failure to keep costs down

    20. Ken500 says:

      Got on the internet read up,on the facts and history, voting patterns and numbers. The figures don’t add up. In any case it is their problem. if they vote. Yes or No. Both sides want to stay in the EU. . A different scenario.The Catalonia/Spain (Quebec) experience can be used against the Scottish Independence movement by false narrative of the full facts.,Regurgitating nonsense. Leave them to it.Stay out of it, The Spanish Gov stayed out of Scottish/UK/EU affairs. Respected neutrality.

    21. Street Andrew says:

      Some days it’s just too much bother to giveashit.

    22. Ken500 says:

      Good luck with the Glasgow rally. Thanks for all those who can’t be there. Thanks a million.

    23. Bradford Millar says:

      Nuclear weapons only make you a target, being honest i cannot see Scotland being in NATO one of the requirements they will impose on us for NATO membership is for FUK (Former UK) to have it’s nuclear base remain in Faslane …. this will not be acceptable to the Scottish public.

      To gain Nato membership all members would have to agree, and then their is the matter of fees for membership and fees to help Nato countries in combat situations if say Scotland opposes taking part in said conflict .
      Instead Scotland should be looking to go down the route of neutrality like Ireland, i would like to see Scotland invest in a robust conventional armed forces currently we contribute around £3.4 – £3.5 billion towards the UK’s defence expenditure i would like to see Scotland spend £5 billion.

      Not because of some phoney threat from Russia who spends $55 billion in defence compared to NATO’s $1 trillion plus in defence … Nato and America is the real threat to peace they are willing to use extremists to remove governments that do not follow the American uni-polar world

    24. Capella says:

      Japanese children must be delighted to know that Scotland is host to US weapons managed by Westminster. Japan. after all, has direct experience of nuclear weapons dropped on them by the US… the only country so far to drop nuclear bombs on anyone.

      I support the SNP stance. Get rid of these appalling weapons. Who can blame KJU when faced with the history of US/UK aggression.

      On a brighter note – Outlander hero’s grandfather, Simon Fraser, may be buried near Inverness. He was thought to have been beheaded in London after Culloden. The Old Fox grave is about to be examined…
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-41284414

      Good luck everyone in Glasgow today.

    25. cearc says:

      A little light relief…

      The rude Ruth page break,

      https://twitter.com/MediaGuido/status/908296010102923264/photo/1

      Not an account I normally look at but I got the link from Politico.

    26. David Caledonia says:

      Thank goodness for Ferguson Marine in Port Glasgow, and its owned by a good independence supporter, there are some good shipbuilding yards on the clyde that don’t have to build warships to survive

    27. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Bwitains Nuclear deterrent doing a great job of deterring attacks against her population in London this week I see.

      Trident is and always has been a great big hole to hide UKOK Government ‘slush fund expenditure’ of taxpayers cash under the provisions of the ‘Official Secrets Act’.

      Bairns not Bombs.

    28. galamcennalath says:

      Weapons of Mass Deception!

      © Smallaxe

      Very good!

    29. David Caledonia says:

      BREAKING NEWS….. It has just been announced that scottish turkeys will be voting for christmas, when asked why, a spokesperson for the turkeys said, well you see, when your a scottish turkey and a unionist you have to make sacrifices, its our duty to have ourselves put in a nice warm oven and be cooked for a few hours for the good of all, when asked about Ruth the head turkey of the movement the spokesperson said, you cannot expect our supreme leader to sacrifice herself, and lets be honest the spokesperson said, she is a bit tough anyway, people want something succulent and juicy, not some old bird that’s so tough she would break your dentures in half… heh heh heh

    30. Ray Visino says:

      Why are the SNP not campaigning to get Trident moved the England? They could block the whole place off and make it inaccessible, they could be working out alternative employment for the workers, they could be making a huge fuss, but nothing.

    31. Capella says:

      Still hunting for Catalonia info on the BBC site. Only one item so far – about money – how Westminster!

      But this story is about Ukaranian nazis forcing a children’s author to withdraw her book about same sex parenting “Maya and her Mummies” from a book festival. Should guarantee roaring success for the book and there’s a link at the end to a free download – if you can read Russian:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-41282060

    32. geeo says:

      @ray visino…

      Are you like, 10 years old ?

      Defence is RESERVED to WM, so we have NO SAY where Trident is based.

      It will not be a political party which removes trident from Scotland.

      That will ONLY be achieved by voting YES to an independent Scotland in the upcoming referendum.

      You best go back to your choo choo set.

    33. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Don’t sweat the detail @Bradford Millar says at 10:03 am Scotland holds the best hand when it comes to Military Treaty Options post Independence.

      Due to Scotland’s location a Northern European option may be a better solution than Irelands.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIUK_gap

      It is simple, our geographical position versus global geo-political evolution makes this a no brainer.

      Options could include:

      1. Neutrality like the Swedish (as a member of the Nordic Battlegroup).

      2. Join NATO like Norway and Denmark.

      3. Scotland could be Neutral like Finland and still be protected under NATOs Umbrella via an “Agreement of Friendship, Cooperation, and Mutual Assistance” like the Finno-Soviet Treaty of 1948 (also known as the YYA Treaty).

      So there you go, In NATO, Half in/half out of NATO, or completely out of NATO.

      All of these scenarios are possible and all have pros and cons.

      But all these options can only be done as an Independent Nation State (a non-nuclear one I hope).

      None of these options can be done as a member of the Neo Fascist nuclear weapon armed UKOK Dictatorship we currently find ourselves part of.

      Especially with its planned foreign policy of making “Britain’s arms industry the biggest in the world”.

      Which if it uses the current “Arm Saudi to bomb Yemen” as a business model will make the UKOK a nuclear weapon armed Terrorist supporting and arming Rogue State.

      Fallon needing to bring in hard currency to prop up a crashed economy.

      Empire 2.0???

      or

      Indy Scotland?

      I know which one I want to be a citizen of.

    34. A while back they were demonstraiting in London about the air pollution in London saying that a third runway at Heathrow wild affect mainly black populated areas their slogan was black lives matter well I said with every nuclear weapon on Britain plus trident stored in Scotland do Scots lives matter??? I mean the threat of nuclear accidents or being the target in a war is surely a greater health hazard than air pollution???

    35. Dr Jim says:

      But the Jobs the Jobs the millions of Jobs Trident provides
      Disasters would occur if we didn’t have Trident, Helensburgh would sink without trace, the whole of that area would be a wasteland of poverty and homelessness, old people would stop walking up and down the seafront eating their overpriced chips and pokey hats every day, the Waltzer would stop Waltzering for the kids, think of the childrens future without the ritual of sitting on grimy old seats getting skelfs in their Arses from 100 year old fairground attractions that haven’t been painted since the war

      Trident must stay for the sake of our children

      And the chips!

    36. Sarah says:

      @smallaxe 9.23 a.m. Weapons of Mass Deception [the MSM]. Excellent!!!

    37. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Forgot to mention that with Brexit Fallons plan to make “Britain’s arms industry the biggest in the world” has a problem.

      Like the UKs Car Industry (I know…).

      The UKs Arms Industry basically assembles weapons using imported foreign parts.

      UK-US Trade Agreement no doubt in the pipeline as Euro Arms Manufacturers parts might be too pricey if tariffs imposed

      So any future involvement from EU Member States like Heckler & Koch (German Company) on the UK L1A1 Rifle 5.56mm upgrade in the early 2000s might be impossible/impracticable in future.

    38. mike cassidy says:

      Two links from yesterday’s BBC about Catalonia.

      http://archive.is/FhYr5

      http://archive.is/MH2G0

    39. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      You been listening to “Jackie Baillie’s Greatest Hits” again @Dr Jim says at 10:58 am??

      😉

    40. Capella says:

      @ mike cassidy – thx for link. Didn’t see the “Spain plays Cat and Mouse item. All very interesting to see the techniques an authoritarian state finds to suppress democracy.
      http://archive.is/MH2G0

    41. Bradford Millar says:

      @Jockanese Wind Talker

      if we cause the disarmament of the fUK’s nuclear deterrent we will not be welcome in NATO regardless of the GIUK all that will happen is America/NATO will try and push us out of control of our maritime waters.

      I don’t trust NATO and as for Sweden they have lost their neutrality “Sweden is a signatory of the so-called host nation agreement that enables foreign units, specifically NATO, to operate within Swedish borders for exercises, crises or military operations.”
      https://www.rt.com/op-edge/403442-sweden-nato-military-drills/

      America and NATO are not interested in peace they are only interested in conflict … the minute we let Nato in … is the minute we lose our sovereignty

    42. louis.b.argyll says:

      Useless? Trident?

      As an accurate defence mechanism, probably.

      As a killing machine, it probably works just fine.

      As an efficient weapon, it probably costs £1000 for each person it kills.

    43. ScotsRenewables says:

      Off topic but important . . .

      The Spanish government in madrid have shut down the Catalan government’s independence website and are busy shutting down any mirrors that appear (see http://www.ref1oct.cat./ as an example)

      Does anyone know if the website code is available anywhere so some of us can set up mirrors outside Spain that Madrid cannot get their hands on?

      We need to show solidarity with Catalonia over the next two or three weeks . . .

    44. louis.b.argyll says:

      We ALL need to wrestle control of our nation’s futures out of the hands of (those blinded by) the MILITARY lobbyists.

      All blocs and individual nations have now neen aligned like a board game, with the dice (democracy) having been heavily loaded by unnatural politics.

      WHO PUT THESE GUYS IN CHARGE?

    45. Breeks says:

      Hmmmm. I am in no way an apologist for the North Koreans, and their game of Russian Roulette with Trump, nor indeed both of their reckless and dangerous carry on with nukes and missiles.

      However, in the context of ramped up rhetoric, if you study the map, logically rule out a landfall destination for the trajectory of your missile, also avoid it landing in or malfunctioning above international shipping lanes, then in actual point of fact, it would be very difficult for the North Koreans to fire a land based missile which did NOT fly over a Japanese island or into Japanese airspace.

      Just sayin’…..

    46. Robert Peffers says:

      @Bradford Millar says: 16 September, 2017 at 10:03 am:

      ” … being honest i cannot see Scotland being in NATO one of the requirements they will impose on us for NATO membership is for FUK (Former UK) to have it’s nuclear base remain in Faslane”

      That is very obviously utter claptrap, Bradford. It is the kind of bullshit that is spread all over Scotland by the Westminster Establishment propaganda wing.

      Let us, first of all consider the real facts. NATO is:-“The North Atlantic Treaty Organization”, and its current membership is 29 member countries. Of these only two are located in North America – (Canada and the United States) – and 27 are European countries and Turkey is actually in Eurasia.

      To gain NATO membership all members must agree to help NATO countries in combat situations. There are only three NATO Member Countries that have Nuclear capability or only two when the real truth is that the United Kingdom’s is actually not an independent deterrent but is actually controlled by the USA.

      Furthermore, you are making the stupid Westminster Propaganda claim that in the event of Scotland re-gaining her independence that Scotland will be leaving behind an, “rUnited”, Kingdom. This is demonstratively idiotic. The legal title of the United Kingdom correctly describes it as a union of only two kingdoms and, in any bipartite union, when one partner decides the union is over then both partners part company- there cannot, therefore be a remaining United Kingdom. Wales and Northern Ireland were integral parts of the Kingdom of England in respectively, 1284 and 1542. I.e. The United Kingdom is a union of two Kingdoms – not of four countries.

      On Scottish independence the United Kingdom returns to the legal Status Quo Ante of two independent KINGDOMS and thus the Kingdom of England AND the Kingdom of Scotland are both no longer members of NATO and either NATO will have to accept both as members or both as non-members.

      Now consider the stark choice that the remaining NATO member states will face – only two of those now have nuclear weapons. These two are the USA & France and the current United Kingdom is at loggerheads with France due to the UKExit now in progress.

      The rest of the NATO Member States do not have nuclear weapons and then we have the stark fact that Scotland is in the unique position of having the so called, “North Atlantic Gap”, in Scottish territorial waters and that North Atlantic gap is vital to remaining under control of NATO member countries as it is the doorway for Russian naval vessels gaining entry to the North Atlantic.

      Now, Bradford, you may want to reassess your Britnat propaganda inspired claims and consider NOT accepting Westminster Establishment propaganda at face value but to look at the situation as it really is.

      I’ve mention only the true facts of what the United KINGDOM actually is but which Westminster runs as if it is the De facto sovereign Parliament of England in control of the three other subservient countries that England holds sovereignty over.

      However, there are several other legal facts that are no more than Westminster claims with no other legal claims than Westminster saying, “Because we say so”.

      Here are just a few of them:-

      The UK is a United Kingdom – it is not a single united country ruled over by England.

      Therefore the United Kingdom’s memberships of countless treaties and trade agreements end when the only two kingdoms part company and the United Kingdom ends.

      That means all those treaties & agreements made over 400 years are up for renegotiation and cannot be assumed to be only made by the Kingdom of England. So there is an easy and a hard way for all those treaties/agreements to be dealt with.

      The easy way is for the parties involved to accept that both partner Kingdoms continue as equal individual members or they do not accept the easy solution and demand that each partner kingdom must renegotiate their membership and that could be a very long drawn out process.

      So, just to take the EU membership as a prime example. How will the EU treat the two former UK partner kingdoms?

      Simple really – Scots voted to remain the entire Kingdom of England voted to leave. So Scotland, still being EU Citizens, must become the legacy member state and the Kingdom of England, (Three countries), get their democratically voted for wish to leave as is their right as EU citizens to opt to leave.

    47. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Like I said @ at 10:52 am @Bradford Millar says at 11:22 am

      Scotland holds the best hand when it comes to Military Treaty Options post Independence.

      It is simple, our geographical position versus global geo-political evolution makes this a no brainer.

      Lots of scenarios are possible and all have pros and cons (some of which you have pointed out).

      But all these options can only be done as an Independent Nation State.

      First we need an Indy Ref 2 win.

      That is the key.

      NATO Membership is an issue like currency was in 2014 which distracts from this key fact.

    48. Capella says:

      Kurds now voting for Independence referendum. Is there no end to the desire for self-determination? No.
      http://archive.is/zvl0G

    49. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      If you think Spain is carrying out a ‘crack down’ in Cataluña wait and see how Erdo?an’s Turkey deals with this announcement regarding Kurdish Independence @Capella says at 11:41 am.

      The Turks have been actively conducting an ethnic war against the Kurds since the 1920s.

    50. Bradford Millar says:

      @Jockanese Wind Talker

      “But all these options can only be done as an Independent Nation State.

      First we need an Indy Ref 2 win.”

      ^ 100% in agreement with the above ^

    51. Juan P says:

      @ScotsRenewables 

      16 September, 2017 at 11:28 am

      Off topic but important . . .

      The Spanish government in madrid have shut down the Catalan government’s independence website and are busy shutting down any mirrors that appear (see http://www.ref1oct.cat./ as an example)

      Does anyone know if the website code is available anywhere so some of us can set up mirrors outside Spain that Madrid cannot get their hands on?

      We need to show solidarity with Catalonia over the next two or three weeks . . .

      Was thinking along similar lines. I’m not technically minded but if someone could identify what’s needed I think a lot of folk would be keen to crowdfund and show solidarity with our Catalonian friends.

    52. Robert Louis says:

      Is it the case that the UK mainstream media has been gagged by Theresa Mays UK dictator Government from reporting on Catalonia, and the disgraceful breeches of human rights, accompanied by threats to journalists in Barcelona?

      Seriously, where is the media coverage??

      Where is the condemnation by the Labour party? Solidarity with their global brothers and sisters and all that?

      Their are serious echoes of the Franco dictatorship happening right now in Spain, a peaceful democratic movement and vote is being brutally suppressed by Madrid and its henchmen (Guardia Civil) and the media in the UK sticks its collective fingers in its ears, and sings lah, lah, lah… oh ,look a Hurricane in the Caribbean.

    53. Ken500 says:

      Vince Cable. Past his sell by date. The total LibDem hypocrite who is responsible for the whole Brexit mess to line his own pockets. Wasting £Billions of pubic money. The Multimillionaire defrauder who has the damn and utter cheek to lecture others. The Tory sychophant and apologist. Student loan liars. Supported a EUref for one on AV to try and advance his Party’s power and waste of £Billions of public Gambled and lost big time. Should keep out of the Scottish Independence Ref or face major continual ridicule.

      Dugdale sacked for complete incompetence and lies. Breaking the Law. Receives a political award managed by a criminal homophobic. Could it get any worse. Complete and utter cheek.

      No wonder people are raging, annoyed and even more angry. The damned cheek of these criminals. Most of them should be in jail.

    54. Grouse Beater says:

      Passing the 10,000 hits mark …. http://wp.me/p4fd9j-f9U

      (I must have a read of it sometime.)

    55. Dr Jim says:

      Trident is a secret thing that we all pay loadsa money to have but we never see it so given we don’t believe a word that comes out of the UK Guvs mouths about what they spend our money on why do we believe Trident really even exists at all

      Maybe they’ve only got like one, like for show, it’s not as if anybody’s allowed to pop down and count, maybe Scotland’s just being used as the decoy target so the “real country” doesn’t get bombed

      #showustheTridents

      Now that I’ve thought about that, it’s not so funny

    56. Proud Cybernat says:

      Top ‘toon Chris.

      Misreporting North Britain Today:

      https://imgur.com/a/a0qRc

    57. Dr Jim says:

      Lies, it was all lies says Vince Cable about the Brexit referendum so we must have another one with the truth

      Scotland shouldn’t have another referendum though coz eh well , well they just shouldn’t, eh coz different,oh oh and the really big reason, erm well mumble mumble settled will mumble nobody wants it, mumble… NO!

      Phew! glad that’s over!

    58. Ken500 says:

      The Spanish/Catalonia Ref situation is totally different from the Scottish/UK Indy/Ref sutuation. A autonomous region in a recently established democratic monarchy.

      Peddling hysterical nonsense and myth will damage the SNP and the Independence cause. Try and be more rational. To compare them without considering the differences is irrational. Without reason.

      Catalonia an autonomous region is a recently established democractic monarchy. The Spanish legal system does need an overhaul. Reinforced. Scotland is a older established democracy 1928 and before. Longer EU member. In a Union between two countries. A Union which is supposed to be treated equally. With a guaranteed separate established legal system and Church, a shared Protestant monarchy. Etc.

      The US has been starving the North Koreans for over fifty years. China has to help them out.

    59. Jack Murphy says:

      Robert Louis said at 12:07 pm
      “Is it the case that the UK mainstream media has been gagged by Theresa Mays UK dictator Government from reporting on Catalonia, and the disgraceful breeches of human rights, accompanied by threats to journalists in Barcelona?

      Seriously, where is the media coverage??

      Where is the condemnation by the Labour party? Solidarity with their global brothers and sisters and all that?…….”

      It’s called Selective Reporting at the BBC in Scotland,
      and Selective Amnesia by Labour in Scotland. 🙁

    60. t42 says:

      Shall we take fun bets on when Guido Fawkes will break his silence on the Catalan ref?
      Not a word about it anywhere on his website since April 2nd, and that was negative.

      Scotlands new media doing the world a service. 🙂

    61. cearc says:

      Hey Stu,

      Did you hear Craig Murray at the rally?

      He wants a statue of you in the square.

    62. Cactus says:

      Greetings frae Freedom Square…

      Glasgow………….

      My umbrella has gone nuclear!

      We’re awe in ra Counting Hoose ra now.

      X.

    63. Cactus says:

      Our march went frae Holland Street on a beautiful new route thru Glasgow city and arrived at Freedom Square.

      Looks like the going to Glasgow Green wiz a bum steer!

      Here and now.

    64. Abulhaq says:

      Naturally, Kim Jeong-eun knows that and (whisper it not) he’s probably ‘targeting’ these Unionist nukes in his computer war games. Ah! what it is to have the protection of a world power around you!

    65. Robert Graham says:

      hey ruth the no support for indy2 has just walked through the centre of glasgow , aye yer right no support i was seeing things .

      its ok you can catch it on the next bbc report ,ten people with strange flags walking through glasgow causing little or no traffic disruption .

      police scotland have the situation under control casualties are not expected .

    66. Ottomanboi says:

      Can’t understand the ‘keep Catalunya at arms length, coz we’re different’ attitude. We have much to learn from the Catalan relationship with their own history, culture and language. A people that manages to get hundreds of thousands onto the streets should be admired, supported and, if possible, imitated. We could really benefit from some of their extrovert radicalism in our insular, conventional British political bubble.
      The Spanish state is as ‘unitary’ as the British one and Madrid intends to keep it that way, as does London. The formation of a sovereign Catalan republic would, hopefully, send a cleansing tsunami to our shores. Let us joyously proclaim Visca Catalunya Lliure!

    67. Grouse Beater says:

      Cearc: “Hey Stu, did you hear Craig Murray at the rally?
      He wants a statue of you in the square.”

      I’ll pay for the traffic cone!

    68. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Aye @at 12:07 pm

      “Where is the condemnation by the Labour party? Solidarity with their global brothers and sisters and all that?…….”

      Thought they were the International Socialist Party.

      They claim to have inherited the mantle of the post WWI Trades Unionists and International Socialist who fought Franco 1936 -1939 in the British Battalion of the XV International Brigade.

    69. Dr Jim says:

      The terror threat has been elevated to imminent throughout the UK says the news
      Police Scotland says no increased threat intelligence reports in Scotland
      Welsh police have no reports of the same either

      So it’s just Englands UK then

      Not being flippant about terrorism just sarcastic about where the media thinks the UK is

    70. Proud Cybernat says:

      Scottish Government statement on Catalunya:

      “Commenting on the continued dispute between the governments of Spain and Catalonia on proposals for a referendum on Catalonia’s constitutional position, Cabinet Secretary for External Affairs Fiona Hyslop said:

      “The decision over Catalonia’s future direction is a matter for the people who live there, and the Catalan and Spanish Governments are perfectly entitled to take positions for and against independence.

      “However, all peoples have the right to self-determination and to choose the form of government best suited to their needs, a principle which is enshrined in the UN Charter.

      “The Edinburgh Agreement was an example of how two governments, with diametrically opposed views on whether or not Scotland should become independent, were able to come together to agree a process to allow the people to decide. It is essential that democracy and civil rights are respected in all countries.”

      from here: https://news.gov.scot/news/statement-on-catalonia#.Wb0qEfnWuJB.twitter

    71. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Cheers @Cactus says at 2:11 pm

      “We’re awe in ra Counting Hoose ra now.”

      Hae one for me, just no a Black and Tan

      😉

    72. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Sorry my post @ 2:57pm was in response to @Jack Murphy says at 1:11 pm and Robert Louis said at 12:07 pm

    73. Flower of Scotland says:

      Dorothy Devine @9.30 am

      I gave Ronnie a big hug!

    74. Proud Cybernat says:

      Anyone know if any Wingers still in the Counting Hoose?

      If so, I’ll come along – maybe after 5pm. Be good to meet up again wi’ yies all.

    75. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ Ottomanboi, re: Viva Catalonia

      We didn’t have a civil war 80 years ago, where we were an anarchist-socialist revolutionary force, so the absence of that as part of our recent history tends to make any touch-paper for mass involvement less effective for our situation. We are far removed from the spirit of revolution; they still have people alive who were present during a revolution.

      But I agree with your sentiment.

    76. cearc says:

      Grousey,

      Your just too generous!

    77. HandandShrimp says:

      Hadn’t realised that the Counting House was on the cards but nice to say Hi to Ronnie, Kendo and Co. at George Square.

      Very pleasant daunder around Glasgow and even the very small Yoonish ensemble were entertaining…although I have no idea what the guy with the megaphone was saying. He needs to work on his technique. I think his mouth was too close to the mic or something. The only word I heard was Hanover which was right, we did go up Hanover Street.

    78. HandandShrimp says:

      Likewise, agree with the sentiment from Ottomanboi – Catalonia and the Kurds have every right to state their case for self determination. The behaviour of the Spanish Government is more tin pot dictatorship than modern European politics.

    79. Alex Clark says:

      @Handandshrimp

      If your still in the vicinity of the square there are a few Wingers in the counting house. Some you’ve met and some who’d like to meet you.
      There is no plan for later but I think people might had for Waxy O’Conner’s two minutes from the square.

    80. Dr Jim says:

      Sadiq Khan spends all his time working on a special separate deal on Brexit for London and all he talks about is Londoners
      which is fine and his job

      But how come it’s OK for him to represent his area but not for Nicola Sturgeon to represent Scotland which after all is an actual whole country

    81. HandandShrimp says:

      Cheers Alex, unfortunately had already jumped on a train home. However, I think we will be doing this again before long 🙂

    82. Ottomanboi says:

      The Times reports that British companies will quit Catalunya should the referendum ‘go the wrong way’. All sounds so familiar doesn’t it?
      Catalunya deserves our unqualified support. Historic details may, as pointed out above, be different but we share a common ideal, national freedom and renewal, sovereignty and political independence. Without any trace of animosity to the Castillanos, the ancient Catalan nation must have its legitimate place in the world, as must we Scots.
      The decision to hold a referendum on Kurdish independence is a rather more complicated affair; as any reading of the history of the Kurdish people will reveal. Wish them good fortune but the Kurdish situation is decidedly more complicated, what will the neighbours do?, than the Catalan and Scots ‘predicament’. Madrid and London are lesser beasts than Ankara and Tehran.

    83. heedtracker says:

      Dr Jim says:
      16 September, 2017 at 2:59 pm
      The terror threat has been elevated to imminent throughout the UK says the news
      Police Scotland says no increased threat intelligence reports in Scotland

      Cops with machine guns on Glasgow city centre today though. There is probably nowhere safe now in teamGB. And all because Blair and Brown’s New Labour wanted to go to war with George fucking Bush. New Labour socialist workers marching off to war with neo fascist Bush GOP, is why we have Trident subs, two aircraft carriers of death, delivered directly to countries in hot places that can’t strike back. But ofcourse they can.

      Hope there’s a hell for all the Westminster gimps and their rule britannia war monger liggers, who voted aye for war, war, lots and lots of lovely British wars.

    84. Ken500 says:

      Catalonia/Spain internal affairs Kurds are nothing to do with the Scottish Gov in any way shape or form. Good luck with sorting out their problems. Sure they will manage. They have been at it for some time. The Westminster foreign policy decision are a disgrace. They should be called out at every opportunity. A total waste of £Trns of public money.

      Never ever trust a unionist/green politician. They are untrustworthy. The will waste £Billions of public money at every opportunity to line their own pockets. Lie like there is no tomorrow. Sleekit, two faced cheats. Most of them are criminals who should be in jail. Robbing the public purse.

      Never ever trust the Polls they are deliberately used to manipulate the result. Never ever trust them. A joke. Do not be manipulated in any way. Anyone who believes in FFA/Independence for Scotland. Just keep on voting SNP/SNP. Vote for FFA/Independence. Do not waver ever. Or they will have you. Lie and cheat to line their own pockets. Defraud the public purse and betray every promise they ever make. They are despicable.

    85. Lochside says:

      Catalonia?….Catatonia from ‘our’ poisonous propapagandising State run media.

      Bet MayBot the proto fascist and her capitalist cronies masquerading as political leaders are writing it all down in preparation for dealing with the ‘Jocks’ when they attempt their puny ‘fightback’…

      The UVF serial killers and their coterie of armed scum protected for their silence in crimes perpetrated across the water will be awaiting orders to move on Glasgow to galvanise the ragged arse tory blue nose brigade to attack any public demonstrations in defence of our democratic mugging

      Any bets ‘Police Scotland’ will be posted missing?….allowing military crackdown for public order reasons?

      Enjoy today…it may be the last time Civic Scotland may be allowed to freely walk publicly.

    86. Ken500 says:

      If Craig Murray needs more money. Put it up on his blog.

    87. Cactus says:

      Glasgow, Glasgow n Glasgow…

      Fuck ra tories.

      Love U.

      Wings.

      X.

      Scotland Xxxxxxxxxxxxx.

    88. Cactus says:

      Aweright boss.

      Cheers.

      Hey Daisy Walker… give us a shout!

      Pretty lady x.

      You can go under my umbarella.

    89. Robert Peffers says:

      Juan P says: 16 September, 2017 at 12:04 pm:

      “The Spanish government in madrid have shut down the Catalan government’s independence website and are busy shutting down any mirrors that appear.”

      Which is the biggest mistake the Spanish government could possibly make. It will stiffen the resolve of the Catalans and turn most of the rest of the free World against Spain and it will even see Spain put under pressure from the European Union, the Council of Europe and the UN.

      I believe that the Spanish Government has just blown any chance they had of defeating the Catalan Indy movement.

    90. Ottomanboi says:

      If Scotland aspires to walk on the ‘international stage’ then Kurdistan and Catalonia matter. The provincial ‘wee’ Scotland, hiding behind Britannia’s skirts, has had its day. Welcome to the adult, actual world inhabited by the sovereign states. Enjoy the freedom of responsibility!

    91. heedtracker says:

      Ottomanboi says:
      16 September, 2017 at 6:15 pm
      If Scotland aspires to walk on the ‘international stage’ then Kurdistan and Catalonia matter.

      With all due respect to those countries in waiting, none of them can even dream of coming close to the strategic importance of Scotland today, let alone Scotland’s natural resources, green and mineral, vast oceanic territory, extraordinary scientific, industrial soci economic contributions to the whole bloody planet, you get the picture…

      One of teamGB’s greatest propaganda triumphs over Scots, shat out over and over by their BBC Scotland gimps, SLabour, tory dingdongs, Billy Connolly etc, is that Scotland really is just a region, not even anything like Catalonia really, and not to do down great Catalonian masters like Picasso, Miró and Dalí:D

    92. galamcennalath says:

      Catalonia is a test case for Scotland.

      If they vote Yes (are allowed to meaningfully vote Yes), then become independent, quickly become recognised internationally, then join the EU … all precidents have been set.

      This all increases Scotland’s chances of a successful IndyRef2 considerably.

      Of course the BritNats know this. Like with most of their problems, the initial response is to ignore it and hope it goes away.

    93. heedtracker says:

      Lochside says:
      16 September, 2017 at 5:46 pm
      Catalonia?….Catatonia from ‘our’ poisonous propapagandising State run media.

      That last comment was for you Lochside, seeing as you’re the dilettante prick spotter. Its propagandising, by the way.

    94. Ottomanboi says:

      Scotland like Catalunya and Kurdistan, greater or otherwise, have a right to their place in the warm sun of freedom. We are not alone. We must not allow that suspiciously ‘racist’ indifference or superior detachment to creep into our psychology regarding our relationship with ‘the world’, the complex world we hope to join. The ‘spendid islolation’ of Britain pace Brexit, has no place in the Scotland we all, I trust, desire.

    95. heedtracker says:

      The ‘spendid islolation’ of Britain pace Brexit, has no place in the Scotland we all, I trust, desire.

      Or not sticking your oar into other countries affairs, is another way to go. Brexit Britain’s being going around the world begging for trade deals, just as long it’s not with the dreaded EU.

      Brexit Britain sells incredibly deadly weaponry for example, to anyone at all, for any purpose, like Saudi’s slaughtering Yemeni children with British guided missiles, the laser systems currently made in Scotland.

      http://www.savethechildren.org.uk/2017-09/most-britons-oppose-uk-arms-role-yemen-poll

    96. Ottomanboi says:

      ‘splendid isolation’….one day virtual keyboards will catch up with the speed of human thought?

    97. Ottomanboi says:

      @heedtracker
      there is no such thing as ‘neutrality’. A free Scotland would be required to have an opinion, whether its politicians wished it or not. It is part of being a mature and responsible nation. Could a sovereign Scotland remain detached from the posturings of N Korea?

    98. heedtracker says:

      Could a sovereign Scotland remain detached from the posturings of N Korea?

      That’s a different and not the issue, with say Catalonia. People get annoyed at the EU for not getting involved with Scottish independence but they are not going to because of the EU constitution.

      Nation state Scotland will not be a world power, or worse, a wannabe world power, like England. A state like NK has giant neighbours close and far, from all countries across the Pacific rim, to nuke power India, currently population 1.324 billion, says wiki.

      What its got to do with the UK? well almost certainly a Trident sub is bobbing about offshore NK, carefully targeting various NK cities to incinerate. Why, because we’re British.

    99. Lochside says:

      Heed the ba’… prickspotter I may well be… and one spotted prick are you …pedantic bawbag…..go back to adoring your slovenian lover and pointlessly and endlessly trolling other trolls with your riddles.. you diddler.

    100. Daisy Walker says:

      A wee song for Cactus…and other bonny mairchers… to the tune of ‘all around my hat I will wear the green willow’

      All around my heart I will wear the Blue Saltire
      All around my heart for a lifetime and a day
      And if anybody should ask me
      the reason why I’m wearing it
      Its all for Scotland and Scotland will be free

      All around my Land
      The People they are Sovereign
      All around my land
      For ever and a day
      And if anyone should ask us
      The reason why we’re telling it
      Its all for Scotland and Scotland will be free.

      Repeat as necessary.

      Love to all. Peace and love to Catalonia (and Spain)

    101. The 2008 Basque referendum on the question of Independence was prevented by the Spanish Gov,stating that only the Spanish Gov could hold a legitimate referendum,

      the Basque`s appealed but the ruling was upheld by the European Court of Human Rights.

      The Spanish Gov will block the Catalan Referendum.

    102. defo says:

      Calling newbies, and everyone else for that matter “stupid” is really going to draw in new blood. Not.
      This is demonstratively idiotic.

      Enough already with the patronising Bob. You’re a real asset to this site, and a bit of a liability too. IMHO

      Nice work on your take of the daily bull we’re fed Chris

    103. Ghillie says:

      Thank you Daisy Walker = ) Good words to a lovely tune!

      Cactus and co. Well done! Big crowd big march for Indy 🙂 Have a grand time together 🙂 Wish I was there too!

      Grouse Beater, a GOLD parking cone, yes?!

      Chris, this must be an absoutely terrifying time for the People of Japan. BAN THE BOMB ! It’s the only way for a civilised world.

      May our friends in Catalonia have the democracy and peace to pursue it that they so deserve. And may our friends in Spain find a way to accept this peacefuly and graciously.

      Have a lovely evening folks =)

    104. Tatu3 says:

      O/T
      On fb EU Citizens for an Independent Scotland posted – Richard Leonard for Real change says “For the avoidance of doubt, let me make it clear. There will be no ground ceded to nationalism at the expense of progressive socialism under my leadership. No coalition, pacts, or deals with the SNP. And no second independence referendum”

    105. Robert Peffers says:

      Ottomanboi says:16 September, 2017 at 2:47 pm:

      “Can’t understand the ‘keep Catalunya at arms length, coz we’re different’ attitude.”

      Yep! It is very, very obvious that you cannot understand it, Ottomanboi. For starters no one, well no one I’ve noticed on Wings, said anything about keeping them at arm’s length.

      Only that the two situations are quite different and what is more the differences were made clear.

      That being so the two situations cannot be compared to each other. Just as Oranges & Apples are both fruits but adding a number of oranges to a number of apples makes neither a quantity of oranges nor a quantity of apples. It makes either a bowl of fruit or a fruit salad.

      The only things Catalonia & Scotland have in common is they both seek to be independent countries and both will ultimately succeed in doing so. As such we should, and do support each other. What we cannot do is learn from each other for the two situations are not comparable.

      Scotland is the only legally equally sovereign partner kingdom in a United Kingdom that is currently being illegally ran as if the country of England was the United Kingdom yet England has no elected Government. Westminster is working as if it were the Government of England that no one has elected as such.

      Westminster is using EVEL in order to govern England and prevent the other countries in the United Kingdom interfering in how they run England but Westminster is also claiming sovereignty over the other three countries of the United Kingdom and one of them, Scotland is a partner kingdom.

      Westminster, is as its title attests, the United Kingdom parliament and there are only two kingdoms that signed the Treaty of Union.

      In the case of Spain they are a unified country but are run as autonomous regions of one country. At the present time Catalonia has far more autonomy than Scotland has yet Scotland is legally a fully equal sovereign Kingdom that along with the three country kingdom of England are the only legal partners in the United Kingdom.

      We thus cannot learn anything from each other but that doesn’t prevent us from supporting each other.

    106. Lenny Hartley says:

      Scots Government statement on Catalonia.
      https://news.gov.scot/news/statement-on-catalonia

    107. heedtracker says:

      Lochside says:
      16 September, 2017 at 7:41 pm
      Heed the ba’… prickspotter I may well be

      You’re more than that Lochside, is the point. Going to tell us how we’ll all be killed by the UVF again, in between prick spotting?

    108. Dorothy Devine says:

      FlowerofScotland thank you for delivering the Ronnie hug!

      Went the day well?

    109. Robert Graham says:

      O/T – a bit late and I should be out clubbing etc anyway,
      Just watched a u/tube clip of Dave McEwan hill interviewed at the forward shop in Dunoon, in my view a very good watch and should have a wider audience, So many interesting and intelligent folk supporting YES the biggest problem is probably getting the information around,
      The interlopers who have attached themselves to almost every Indy site are doing it to create a fog and gum up the works and some how prevent the free flow of information everyone should have.
      Again a good view well worth the effort looking for it, Forward Shop Dunoon .

    110. Proud Cybernat says:

      Great to meet some Wingers in the Coonting Hoose this afternoon. Callout for Bob S. & Bob, Ian Brotherhood, Crazycat, Betty Boop, Cactus, Ronnie Anderson.

      Great to see you all again guys ‘n’ gals.

      Last (but not least) – Paula Rose. Great to meet you, doll. I have to say – I have never been stroked quite like THAT EVER!!!! A wee bit surprising to begin with but hey – I will never forget it, hon.

    111. Artyhetty says:

      re;Heedtracker@6.27&Ottomanboi

      Yep, and vice versa. If Catalonia and Kurdistan are hoping to feature on the ‘international stage’ then Scotland matters. In fact if Scotand didn’t ‘matter’ we would be independent right now, set adrift by UKOK a long time ago.

      I was watching some good youtube vids about Scotland’s peatlands. Did you know that Scotland consists of 20% peatland, and has 15% of the worlds ‘blanketbog’. Now that might seem insignificant, (as a friend in Eng told me Scotland is ‘insignificant’, prior to Sept 14) but it’s massive. 15%, in the world and the yoons started to destroy it with drainage and useless pine trees for tax evasion and to make a quick buck, in the 60/70/80s. It’s now it’s costing loads to restore if that is even possible. Hopefully the Scotgov have stepped in just in time.

      I’d say that Scotland is very significant, I mean carbon store capacity of Scotland, via peatbogs, exceeds all of that of England’s forests. Hugely important as we all know.

      It surely must be morally criminal to have nuclear weapons, anywhere. To have them forcibly housed in a next door country, against the will of the people living there, doubly criminal.

      Great image today Chris btw.

    112. heedtracker says:

      it’s massive. 15%, in the world and the yoons started to destroy it with drainage and useless pine trees for tax evasion and to make a quick buck, in the 60/70/80s. It’s now it’s costing loads to restore if that is even possible

      That’s a giant UK tax haven/dodge too but you need a lot of money to get a taste.

      Blanket alien species plantation tree farming in Scotland is not any different from the palm oil plantation farming in south east asia, just as destructive, just as profitable.

      https://www.treehugger.com/corporate-responsibility/commercial-palm-oil-production-in-southeast-asia-violating-indigenous-peoples-rights-new-survey.html

      Big difference between south east asia countries currently being ruined by the palm oil industry and Scotland? Scotland’s got a far more effective propaganda unit, led and coordinated by the UKOK BBC Scotland gimps.

    113. frogesque says:

      Enjoyed the walk and rally in Glasgow today, not as busy as last year but good all the same.

      One criticism I did hear apart from Marmite, love him or hate him Sheridan was that it’s difficult to get to Glasgow or Edinburgh from Inverness for a 10/11am start.

      So, how’s about a YesNess rally? I’m sure the good folk of Inverness could accommodate a few visitors although last time I went there parking was a real pain. Need some local input.

      Personally I’m lucky, I can use the Halbeath P&R and use my wrinkly’s bus pass, alternatively the use the campervan and make a few days for a trip.

    114. Cactus says:

      Burp!

    115. Cactus says:

      Scotland is fucking amazing!

      Never forget that.

      Ever.

    116. Cactus says:

      Hi dakk, hi rjs, hey Daisy!

      You can come under ra umberella.

      We are and be cool.

      iScotland sooner than we think…

      Wink wink. 😉

    117. Cactus says:

      Hey Jockanese, hey Big Phil et TJenny.

      HOMEward bound.

      Xx.

    118. Cactus says:

      The hard core are about to vacate the bar…

      Ronnie Anderson, Ruglonian et aye.

      FUCK RA TORIES!

      You know who ye are.

      Love the love xx.

    119. louis.b.argyll says:

      YesNess – sounds good.

    120. Cactus says:

      Aweright dare Chris Cairns.

      The nuclear umbrella.

      Aye.

    121. louis.b.argyll says:

      Peffers, heedtracker, others, all day. .

      Read and spread everything written and thought through.

    122. Cactus says:

      Weave always owned midnight.

      22nd Century iScotland.

      Do it for yer kids.

      Do it for you.

    123. boris says:

      I ponder!! The Treaty of Union was agreed following a debate in the Scottish Parliament following which a majority supported the signing of the treaty.

      I expect today’s legally elected Scottish Parliament would present a majority in favour of withdrawing from the treaty.

      If it did so and Westminster blocked it would the European Court support Scotland?

    124. Ruglonian says:

      Hey pals, home safe thanks to the lovely Ronnie – no night bus nutters for me! – and a big good night kiss to all my boys 😉
      See you all soon, thanks for another brilliant evening – Onwards!

    125. Still Positive says:

      Boris @ 12.07

      Interesting. I believe the SP cannot vote on it as it a reserved matter. But they also voted in June 2016 to send the FM to Europe to argue Scotland’s case. The SP basically devolved Foreign Policy to the Scottish Parliament.

    126. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Ruglonian (12.27) –

      Hoots tae you sister – twas a braw nicht indeed.

      😉

    127. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Ruglonian so’s me hame safe, you dont need tae get oan a bus you were in the company of they Wings nutters aw day an aw night lol.

    128. ronnie anderson says:

      aw we need noo is Cactus tae report in hame safe .

      Ian Brotherhood , see ah telt ye Wingers Wing it Great night Lads N Lassies .

    129. cearc says:

      Glad to see you all had a good day/night. Sleep well.

    130. Cactus says:

      Headin’ home the auld fashioned way Ronnie…

      These boots were made fur walkin’.

      Will shout ye when ahm HOME.

    131. Robert Peffers says:

      @boris says: 17 September, 2017 at 12:07 am:

      “If it did so and Westminster blocked it would the European Court support Scotland?”

      I’ve been attempting to get the fact that the majority of people in Britain and perhaps right throughout Europe or indeed the entire World are somewhat confused when they think of, “The European Court”.

      You see, boris, there is, “The European Court of Justice”, and that is the highest court in the European Union and the EU has only 28 Member States.

      Thing is that there is a much higher European Court and it is, “The European Court of Human Rights”, and that court belongs to, “The Council of Europe”, and that has 47 member states and includes the 28 EU member states.

      Here is part of what Wiki says:-

      “The European Court of Justice (ECJ), officially just the Court of Justice (French: Cour de Justice), is the highest court in the European Union in matters of European Union law. As a part of the Court of Justice of the European Union it is tasked with interpreting EU law and ensuring its equal application across all EU member states”

      So basically that court is restricted to dealing with EU law only.

      The European Court of Human Rights is far, far more relevant and here is part of what Wiki says about that court:-

      “The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR or ECtHR; French: Cour européenne des droits de l’homme) is a supra-national or international court established by the European Convention on Human Rights. It hears applications alleging that a contracting state has breached one or more of the human rights provisions concerning civil and political rights set out in the Convention and its protocols.

      An application can be lodged by an individual, a group of individuals or one or more of the other contracting states, and, besides judgments, the Court can also issue advisory opinions.

      The Convention was adopted within the context of the Council of Europe, and all of its 47 member states are contracting parties to the Convention. The Court is based in Strasbourg, France.”

      You will note that even individuals can petition the European Court of Civil Rights, (It isn’t as easy as that statements sounds, though).

      However I believe that there could be some gains made if the SG or SNP as a party, individual SNP and YES movement branches or SNP Constituency Associations petitioned, “The European Court of Human Rights”.

      Not necessarily directly about independence but perhaps along the lines that we are an equally sovereign partner kingdom in a United Kingdom now being run as the de facto Parliament of the Country of England and being treated as just another English dominion like Wales and Northern Ireland. Both of which were integral parts of the Kingdom of England long before the bipartite Treaty of Union was agreed and signed.

    132. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Ronnie Anderson et al –

      Youse are aw pure bams.

      At’s aw am sayin’.

      😉

      XXXX

    133. Shinty says:

      Robert Graham@ 9.09pm

      Good interview Robert, thanks.

      Link here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxyKcxkxy6k

    134. Ken500 says:

      It looks like people in Catalonia and not voting in high enough numbers to support holding a Ref in Independence. 2014.

      2.300,000+ voted YES. To hold a referendum. The Catalonian authorities (politicians) of the totally autonomous region did/will not disclose the full result? of Voter %? Turnout It is calculated 30% to 40% of the electorate voted. It does appear a majority did not vote (to hold a referendum) The population is 7.5 million. Some will not be eligible to vote ie children etc. It is unlikely 1/3 of Catalonia population are children? Like most European counties the population is falling without migration. There was a dispute about €6Billion (£4Billion at the time. – exchange rate) This is not as high as it looks, Catalonia is 1/5 – 20% of the Spanish population. One of the wealthy provinces in Spain.

      The banking crash in Spain predominately happened on the Costas. The Mediterranean coast. Housing fraud and speculation of which Catalonia played a part. Spain was borrowing too much from London lending markets which fuelled the banking crisis (in Spain) Holiday homes. Many EU citizens and others lost their life saving or deposits on houses etc which were not build or were of lower value. Worth half. People were defrauded with no rights. The Spanish legal system neeeds overhauling. It is geared to cheat, ‘foreigners’ EU citizens and residents.

      However the Spanish Gov without fair or favour do enforce the Law when it comes to wrong doing. People are arrested and charged sent to prison if convicted. No matter who they are. Lawyers, judges, politicians, royalty, sports personalities, wealthy, poorer, thieves and murderers etc. This can act as a deterrent. Crime by comparison is relatively low. In the UK wrongdoers are lauded and honoured, especially donators who perpetuate the system and pollute the criminal justice system.

      The Catalonia question is – two questions – ‘Should Catalonia be a State’. Then. ‘Should Catalonia be an Independent State. The second question can’t be answered. Without the 1st question being YES. In Spain other resident EU citizens can only vote in local or EU elections. They can’t vote in regional or national (Gov) elections) or Referendum? Or stand for election? Not eligible. It is reported they were/are eligible to vote in the Catalonia Ref Question? Is that accurate?

      This is all totally different from the Scottish Ref (movement). In Scotland a majority of people voted for parties who supported it. On a PR (which is intentionally deliberately confusing for voterrs) A higher % of voters voted for it in Scotland. It is 50/50? A higher number. There is more support for Independence in Scotland. Higher nos voted for it proportionately

      There is no fiscal autonomy in Scotland. Scotland is screwed big time by Westminster politicans for whom Scotland did not vote etc. Deceived criminally. Unlawfully mismanaged by a criminal Westminster Gov for whom the majority in Scotland did not vote. It is not about ‘Nationalism’. It is about right and wrong. It is about representation and fairness. No taxation without representation. Proper consultation. Not lies, deceit, misrepresentation fiddling the books and fraudulent representation. Betraying the voters since 1928 and before.

      It could be argued the Spanish Gov authorities are restoring authority/order according to the majority people’s wishes. The Catalonian authorities are acting lawfully. According to the people’s wishes, voting pattern. The Catalonian authorities do have a majority in coalition with another Party. However it would appear a majority of the Catalonia electorate are not voting for it when the question was asked about having a Ref. It was an extremely low turnout (30/40%) for whatever reason. They will have to sort it out. Hopefully peacefully and democratically.

      Spain is a beautiful country with wonderful people. Heathy lifestyle and diet. A realitively new Democracy. A constitutional monarchy. 1976. Joined the euro, after a three year transition 2002. EU membership has been good for Spain as most European counties. Both Catalonia/Spain want to stay in the EU. That is not a problem. Westminster Gov is more corrupt than Spanish Gov. Spain is more equal, fair and happy, Good healthier lifestyle and diet. More sunshine and free time which makes people happier. The rest of the EU (Eurozone) are doing better economically than the rest of the UK. With less debt.

      There is a far higher support for Ibdependence in Scotland 50/50. With a far higher grievance. Total Lack of full fiscal autonomy which is backed by 70% of support.

      The situation is different in every way. Any similarity cannot be considered without considering and comparing the differences. The problem is the Catalonia (Quebec) situation will be used by an ignorant and incompetent MSM et al, deliberately. To try and discredit the Scottish Independence Movement. Whatever happens and whatever way the vote goes or events turnout in Catalonia. The comparisons are already being made. Without considering the full facts.

      If people believe in FFA/Independence and Scotland to be a more prosperous, equal, fair, happy caring, cohesive country. Just vote SNP/SNP Vote for Independence Never waver. Ever. Or it will never happened. Do not let outside influences distract from the prize. Go out and do all anyone can manage to make it happen. . Do not let illegal, contemptible Westminster criminal actions distract from the goal to transform Scotland into a more equal and fairer more happy democracy.

      Westminster mismanagement is costing Scotland £20Billion a year. Illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. Never vote unionist/green. They can’t be trusted in any way shape or form. Devious liars. They renege on their promises Vows. Just look at the 6 white men Green representation in Parliament. To see how they lie. Lack of gender deviation. Any excuse will do. The talk the talk but do not walk the walk. Or practice what they preach..They renege on green policies. The SNP are greener than the greens on a balanced economy. They get things done. The unionist in coalition mismanage and ruin the economy. Waste £Billions of public money and ignore the electorates wishes, especially of those who vote for them.

    135. Ken500 says:

      Vic Cable habitual liar and criminal cheats on Electoral expenses. Cameron”s right hand man who caused the mess in the first place, is in no position to lecture others. Hypocrite. Well past his sell by date. Politicians should retire at the Gov set retirement date (for public servants). Or seventy. Unless the Parliament votes on special dispensation. There are plenty other roles they can fulfill. If required. Or voluntary.

    136. Smallaxe says:

      Good morning, Nana, quite dull here today. Thank you, for your links. Kettle’s on.
      🙂

    137. JLT says:

      I can’t ever …ever …see any nation using nuclear weapons, no matter how bad things might be for them. I’m sure it was Condoleeza Rice, who over a decade ago when the US was still having major problems with Iran, had warned that any nation (non-Western nations that is …let’s be honest here) built and then used the weapon, would not exist the next day. Their land and their people would be ash. I would agree with that assessment. If the North Koreans decided to fire an armed nuclear weapon at another nation, then irrespective that China sits on the North Korean border, the other major nuclear powers of the world (US, Russia, Britain and France) would nuke North Korea right out of existence. We would deal with the vast problems of radiation and the consequences of genocide in the aftermath.

      However, as much as Kim Jong-Il may appear to be the mad man (and to a certain degree, he probably is), the man has no intention of nuking anyone. Simply put, he is building these weapons as a guarantee for successful negotiations, so that now and again, he can flex his muscles to get better trade agreements for his regime. For as long as food and fuel continue to supply his nation, then his rhetoric will simply be a case of mouthing off at anyone and everyone without really threatening a possible course of war. Kim Jong-Il knows that using just even one missile, or if his language did become seriously volatile, could not only see actual war, but before war would happen, he could potentially see himself overthrown by the Chinese, if not by his own Generals, as they become determined to stop the ‘problem’ that is endangering the world at that point. Kim Jong-Il knows that one or two of his own Generals, quietly persuaded by the Chinese, could end him. What General wouldn’t want to hold the reins of power if promised a better trade deal from the Chinese ally for as long as they govern a ‘softer’ North Korea?

      But as to the UK having Trident. Yep …a complete waste of money. If any Western nation were to use the weapon, it would be America. I can’t ever see Britain or France using it. And if they did, well… the fury of the rest of the world would lead to sanctions and trade embargoes which would collapse either economy overnight. Only the US, Russia (and possibly China) could ride out any world sanctions. Therefore …why does this wee Island that pretends to be a great imperial power and sits at the Atlantic’s edge, with no real enemy for almost 3,000 miles …need a weapon that is only gathering dust in four submarines or in a bunker on an army base. I see no reason for it at all.

    138. JLT says:

      @Robert Peffers re: Court of Human Rights (17 September, 2017 at 12:59 am)

      Great post, Robert. Absolutely agree with you there on the differences (and options) between the European Court of Justice and the European Court of Human Rights.

      Excellent analysis on both and how Holyrood could potentially proceed beyond the UK’s own Supreme Court to gain a sense of justice when dealing with Westminster and Whitehall.

    139. Nana says:

      Good morning Smallaxe.

      Earlier reply has gone astray. I think I forgot to remove the http from the Thomas Muir lecture by Tommy Sheppard.
      It may appear later when Rev has cleared it so best check back.

      Don’t want to risk a hammering for double posting!

    140. Nana says:

      A few more links

      http://indyref2.scot/bbc-reporting-scotland-analysis-week-beginning-4-september-2017

      Revealed: universal credit sends rent arrears soaring
      http://archive.is/hRVcY

      Catalonia’s time has come — and Spain needs to get out of the way
      http://archive.is/ky2UV

    141. galamcennalath says:

      iMO for YES2 to succeed it must move forward as a board collection of distinct organisations targeting different groups. However, all with the same message that Scotland must be governed by those who live here.

      ” English Scots for YES…persuade other English people are to vote yes, but almost as importantly, reassure the nation that there is no anti-englishness in the YES movement; as our motto put it, because it’s not about where you were born, but where we are going together, as a country. “

      http://www.englishscotsforyes.org/2017/09/16/hope-over-fear-rally-speech/

      Another group which is becoming active is … Pensioners for independence.

      http://pensionersforindependence.scot

      These two groups represent demographics which need targeting!

    142. ronnie anderson says:

      https://cranntara.scot/crannta.htm

      All the Badges Pete the Camera gave me were distributed amongst the Wingers & Yessers. Ah telt ye Brian doon the Toon there ah conversation draw in , the only person yesterday that was able to give a brief history of Crann Tara was Donald Anderson ( thats the Scottish history NOT the kkk history ) .

      I met many Catalonians yesterday many photo’s taken with the Wings Flag/Estelada .

    143. heedtracker says:

      I see no reason for it at all.

      England votes for WMD’s like Trident because a lot of them think they are being protected by them and they really think that England is a great world power, very deserving of its place at the captain’s table.

      Its a lot British Empire self national self belief to put aside, especially on the playing fields of Eton and they get to store the WMD’s in another country too. So why ever not rule the waves, UKOK style.

    144. Valerie says:

      English Scots for Yes are suggesting they want to get a group funded to go to Catalan for the vote, as observers.

      I think you need election experience, but good for them trying to get something going.

    145. heedtracker says:

      Nana says:
      17 September, 2017 at 9:38 am
      A few more links

      Thanks for the links Nana! I never watch BBC Scotland gimp network stuff at all, so it a great culture shock to actually see it all in UKOK action again. Their heavy heavy, BBC gimp bombastic and very scary drum roll intro is high comedy though, if youre not used to it anymore. SO serious a news broadcast, must be very important news, not some sneaky shit tory chancers trying to FUD everyone.

      I did catch BBC Scotland radio, late morning last week and the beeb gimps were doing a think about how being slow, doing things really slowly, was a great way to go about your life. So i very slowly through the radio out the window, then went and got it back, tuned in again, and its just endless rangers, rangers, rangers, SNP very very bad.

      Christ its a shit radio network, for only £350 million a year too.

    146. heedtracker says:

      Valerie says:
      17 September, 2017 at 11:04 am
      English Scots for Yes are suggesting they want to get a group funded to go to Catalan for the vote, as observers.

      We need to stay out of Catalonia completely. Its none of our business, observers or not. Some Spaniards are going to lose big time, just like Scotland did 2014.

      The idea of “observers” in Catalonia is just more nonsense. Did you appreciate this from Andrew Marr and this staggering chunk of BBC attack propaganda, rammed down our throats in 2014?

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26215963

    147. Shinty says:

      English Scots for Yes are suggesting they want to get a group funded to go to Catalan for the vote, as observers.

      —–
      I read in The National there’s a group of indy supporters going to Barcelona for the vote/holiday weekend.

    148. cearc says:

      heedy,

      Yesterday, I wandered within hearing range of R4 which I had forgotten to switch off and caught a voice saying,

      ‘India … following the loss of British Rule’.

      No idea what it was but ‘LOSS of British Rule’ really caught my attention!

    149. Silverytay says:

      Galamcennalath @ 9.38
      I believe Pensioners for Yes were out in Perth this week giving out leaflets .
      My Mother in Law got a leaflet from them ,so they are out and about spreading the word now

    150. caz-m says:

      Ronnie, Ian and the rest of you who made the Rally Yesterday.

      I hope it all went to plan and you all had a great day.

      I was away drilling for Oil so couldn’t make it.

      See you lot soon.

      Look forward to any pics or video from Yesterday being posted up on Wings.

    151. heedtracker says:

      cearc says:
      17 September, 2017 at 11:28 am
      heedy,

      Yesterday, I wandered within hearing range of R4 which I had forgotten to switch off and caught a voice saying,

      ‘India … following the loss of British Rule’.

      R4 is interesting in that it is just SO different from BBC Scotland gimp radio.

      BBC r4 tells its millions of listeners that England and the English really are a wondrous and great thing, in the past, present and future, especially their royals worship. BBC Scotland gimps tell us we’re all shite, Scotland’s shite, SNP bad, worship the royals too and rangers are incredibly interesting. They’re really not.

      Insight, UKOK media wise, brought to you by a dilettante prick:D

      Also, you know youre never going to be British, as you listen to BBC r4, when you have no idea what cricket’s about and the Archers theme tune means the off switch.

      It was actually a Scot’s beeb gimp that switched the Archers torturous grot to 1.45pm, from 2pm, which is only worth noting today because that particular beeb Scot ligger was moaning about the open naked anti Scots bigotry, from r4 listeners at the time. A lot beeb r4 Scots used to gripe about this level of bigotry but you never hear them moaning now. He also tried to get Today in Parliament off bbc r4 FM completely and that was a hoot and half, listening Westminster rage at him, especially the Lords.

      Democracy, BBC r4 style is merely fascism, made by and for upper class listeners pretending to not be fascist.

    152. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Valerie re English Scots for Yes , the 1st thing they need to buy is a Alarm Clock for Math he’s late for every event lol.

    153. Brian McHugh says:

      Spot on cartoon. Scrap Trident.

    154. louis.b.argyll says:

      Indeed,

      They can pretend and disguise and filibuster and gerrymander and bribe and hate all they like.

      We know the truth, that is, that Scotland and several other ancient sovereign populations, are being denied nationhood by a false line in the sand.

      The abuse of democracy by corporate governments and their resistance to honest virtue, in effect stops human history in it’s tracks.

      The flow of constitutional change is stalled when big business and owners of assets feel threatened by a fairer system.

    155. Betty Boop says:

      Okay, whilst the UK gov is wasting billions on destruction toys and being a general laughing stock around the world, back on earth, we have this appeal to help feed real people, our people who are suffering the wilful neglect of self same government.

      This guy tries to stop a fair number of folks from starving, helps keep them warm and attempts to give them some hope. His expectations of being able to carry on doing this through the winter have been delivered a severe dunt with prospective funding denied. He has written a book to raise funds and has an appeal on Justgiving.

      Blog here:
      http://www.marksimonfrankland.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/the-last-colonial-war-chapter-one.html

      Justgiving:
      https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/mark-frankland4

    156. Robert Peffers says:

      I was commenting further on the ECHR, (European Court of Human Rights when it just vanished into the Ether(net). It was quite long, so I’m not going to re-do it, and if it does happen to make it onto Wings please excuse any bad spelling or other errors as I couldn’t re-read and correct daft errors.

      Suffice to say I was pointing out that the difficulty I hinted at was that the ECHR stipulate that appellants must have exhausted their state’s court systems before the ECHR take it on.

      In Scotland’s case that would involve taking it through the Scottish court systems followed by the Westminster created UK Supreme court and would raise the question of whether it needed to also go through the English legal system.

    157. louis.b.argyll says:

      Systems are overhauled following technical advancement.
      Some resist, but then the benefits become apparent to all.

      Treaties are overhauled when a great wrong is to be righted.
      Some resist, but then the benefits become apparent to all.

      Except where greedy motives have hoodwinked society itself.

    158. boris says:

      Robert Peffers says: 17 September at 12.51

      In Scotland’s case that would involve taking it through the Scottish court systems followed by the Westminster created UK Supreme court and would raise the question of whether it needed to also go through the English legal system.

      Thank you for the analysis you posted earlier.I am of the view that Scottish MSP’s would be able to forward the case for giving up the Treaty of Union directly to the relevant European authority on the basis that an opinion on the precedence of Scottish Law is being requested. If Scottish Law is sovereign we cancel the treaty

    159. Capella says:

      @ Robert Peffers 12.59 am – good idea. The Treaty of Union was well and truly abandoned by Westminster. Why would Scotland carry on as if it was still valid?

      “…I believe that there could be some gains made if the SG or SNP as a party, individual SNP and YES movement branches or SNP Constituency Associations petitioned, “The European Court of Human Rights”.

      Not necessarily directly about independence but perhaps along the lines that we are an equally sovereign partner kingdom in a United Kingdom now being run as the de facto Parliament of the Country of England and being treated as just another English dominion like Wales and Northern Ireland. Both of which were integral parts of the Kingdom of England long before the bipartite Treaty of Union was agreed and signed.”

      The Department for Exiting the EU is an entirely English affair.
      https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department-for-exiting-the-european-union

    160. Liz Rannoch says:

      Grrrrr…

      Vince Cable on Andrew Marr. Thinks the fibdums are the 3rd party in UK government.

      Marr doesn’t correct him.

    161. galamcennalath says:

      Liz Rannoch says:

      Vince Cable on Andrew Marr. Thinks the fibdums are the 3rd party in UK government. Marr doesn’t correct him.

      That would have annoyed me more a few years ago because the underlying mindset is that UK equals England … and nothing more. So the ignorance and arrogance would have touched a raw nerve.

      However now, there might well be something beyond that. The underlying thinking could be that UK equals rUK and only rUK parties are relevant. In other words, Scotland is half way out the door already, and the Union’s on a shugglie peg.

      Whatever the Yoonerartsi claim, hard Brexit seems likely, IndyRef2 follows, and the end of the UK is nigh.. Anyone who doesn’t understand that isn’t keeping up. Cable and Marr are both bright enough to understand that Brexit threatens the Union, even if they wouldn’t admit it openly.

    162. Fred says:

      There were Catalans in the Square yesterday, very nice folk & peeps from Lanarkshire who had just booked their flights for Barcelona & the vote!

    163. Marker Post says:

      Ruthie tweeted re: Boris Johnson’s letter in the Telegraph, which some apparently feel is part of Boris’ bid for power:

      “On the day of a terror attack where Britons were maimed, just hours after the threat level is raised, our only thoughts should be on service,” Ruth said.

      Ruthie of all people should know that letters are written at least a couple of days in advance, and may be overtaken by events.

      Makes you wonder who is the biggest opportunist. And why the Guardian feels the need to mention her tweet at all in their article about it today.

    164. Breeks says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      17 September, 2017 at 12:51
      “In Scotland’s case that would involve taking it through the Scottish court systems followed by the Westminster created UK Supreme court and would raise the question of whether it needed to also go through the English legal system….”

      Only while we as a sovereign country allow Westminster to wear the trousers. Why should Scotland initiate its defence of sovereignty when merely by changing our attitudes, we might offload the burden of proving sovereign legitimacy onto Westminster? It is Westminster seeking to disrupt the status quo, so the onus is on Westminster to explain how it intends to resolve the issue of Scotland’s emphatic sovereign decision to remain.

      We simply defend our sovereignty and let Westminster squander its resources trying to prove it has the sovereignty it claims to enjoy, when we know that it doesn’t. Its high time we formally tell May that her “Brexit” jurisdiction does not extend to Scotland because it is irreconcilable with the sovereign people of Scotland voting to reject Brexit. She has neither the sovereignty nor the electoral mandate to overrule us.

      All we need is our Scottish government to respect Scotland’s Remain vote as sovereign, and consequently present Westminster with the intractable conundrum… Oh… Damn.

    165. Nana says:

      Catalan Minister of Foreign Affairs @raulromeva will be speaking to @AlexSalmond later today, listen from 4pm

      http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/special-shows/alex-salmond/

    166. Marker Post says:

      By the way, thanks to Robert Graham and Shinty, and of course Dave McEwan Hill, for the interview on Youtube.

    167. Robert Graham says:

      Even the staunchest Unionist supporter unless they are brain dead can’t fail to notice, we don’t exist ,this whole country is being sidled and marginalised by the Unionist media.

      On the Andrew Marr program this morning Vince Cable presented himself as the leader of the third party in Westminster, he said this without any correction from Marr ,
      The selfsame Cable who the BBC in Scotland just by coincidence in an interview with him managed to include a reference to Indy ref2 when the whole country is engaged in Brexit, right out of the blue the BBC in Scotland stick their oar in ,
      This coincidentally was just before the anniversary Independence march and rally in Glasgow , any and every opportunity to attack the Independence movement they are on it , every waking hour this relentless drip drip, chip chip, it looks like their only reason for existence .

    168. Fireproofjim says:

      Caught a few minutes of the World Cycling Championships from Bergen, on BT Sports channel.
      Amid a mass of Norwegian flags the commentator says “it is great to be among these happy, healthy and patriotic Norwegians, who have spent millions on a world class road racing circuit which doubles as a ski route in winter.”
      Just a small example of what could be but for the “proud Scot butts”,

    169. galamcennalath says:

      Boris Johnson’s latest wittering. Why are we in such a mess over Brexit? It’s blindingly obvious IMO – the Tories are simply not Europeans and can’t think as such.

      They believe, they are gambling, that a Brexit solution which suits them will appear at the last minute because of financial and economic pressures. Tory brains are programmed to think £££££.

      Because they aren’t Europeans they fail to appreciate that the EU is not a trading organisation. It has far more to do with peace, cooperation, unity, regulation and common standards, plus citizens rights, and the EU will not compromise those for financial considerations to anything like the extent the Tories would.

      1. The UK offered to give EU citizens the same rights and safeguards as UK citizens have. That just isn’t good enough! One of the objectives of Brexit is to erode rights and regulation.

      2. The UK has suggested the Irish border could be different from all other EU/UK borders. That is being ridiculous. How can that protect the Rep of Ireland from unfit non EU compliant goods?

      3. The UK somehow thinks if it continues to contribute financially during the transition period it wouldn’t have to pay a lump sum. Paying to be part of the single market and paying for outstanding obligations are two quite different things.

      None of this is serious negotiating about the three issues the EU considers fundamental. The ‘game’, is to play for time and hope economics and trade concerns win the day. They won’t.

    170. Robert Graham says:

      Thanks to Shinty for posting the link, to the Forward Shop Dunoon, forgot to thank him or even her ha ha , a lot of stuff out there that’s getting lost in the fog generated by some people who have been attracted to this site,

    171. Since things have gone a bit continental,

      don`t know how much publicity our state media has given this cause i don`t watch/read any of it,

      Anyhoo,

      Scotsman Mark Beaumont will be finishing his `Cycle round the World in 80 days` late/mid tomorrow afternoon under the Arc de Triomphe (that`s in Paris, France:)

      probably the greatest feat of endurance ever in human history,

      almost averaging 230 miles each day for 80 days,

      they talk about the untapped potential of the human brain,this feat of endurance shows the massively untapped potential of the human body,

      just hope our media`s hatred of anything good or uplifting happening in Scotland or by a Scotsman does not mean that this great feat will be ignored.

    172. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Robert Graham @ 3.20pm

      If you are going to comment – get your facts right. Vince Cable, on the Andrew Marr Show this morning did not claim to lead: “the third party at Westminster”, he claimed – correctly – to lead: “the third UK party at Westminster.”

      The SNP is NOT a UK-wide party, therefore, Cable’s claim for the Lib-Dems stands up.

      He’s still a tube, and they’re still a bunch of chancers, however.

    173. Terry says:

      Alex salmond on LBC right now. Presently he is covering Catalonia. He’s going to be on every week – salmond on Sunday 3-6pm

    174. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 17 September, 2017 at 3:02 pm:

      “Only while we as a sovereign country allow Westminster to wear the trousers.”

      Well first of all you miss the target by at least a trillion miles.

      Second of all, as we have a very nice lady as our FM and the de facto parliament of England has a very nasty lady as their Prime Minister that should read, “wear the nickers.”

      But I digress. In the first place your statement that, “Scotland is a sovereign country”, is quite wrong.

      Correctly The Scots are a sovereign people. Ergo and actions taken by our Scottish government must be by the request of a mandate from the sovereign people of Scotland and we do not, as yet, have such a majority mandate.

      I have in fact posted to that effect in several different ways. To the extent I just gave up even attempting to debate with the numptie Rock who quite obviously cannot understand the English language that states, “The People of Scotland are legally sovereign”.

      So, I’ll attempt yet another comparison to clarify that point.

      Under English law the monarch of England, (after the English Kingdom’s, “Glorious Revolution”, of 1688), remains sovereign but must, since 1688 when the monarch of the three country Kingdom of England was forced, as part of the deal to be Queen of England first offered to only “Princess Mary of the House of Orange”, who initially refused it. Then the offer was extended to Princess Mary & to her Husband King Billy and the duo accepted the offer, on condition that they legally delegated the parliament of England to exercise their royal sovereignty.

      However as the two kingdoms remained legally independent of each other until 1706/7 the English Parliament had no legal powers to change who was the monarch of Scotland and thus began the Jacobite uprisings to support the Scottish Crown.

      Now remember that the English still claim it was a Jacobite Rebellion but the Scots could not rebel as the new English monarchy were not the monarchy of Scotland and the English were still slaughtering Jacobites in 1745 at Culloden – long after the Treaty of Union of 1706/7.

      Then it transpired that as the English Kingdom had made itself a, “Constitutional Monarchy in 1688 and the Scottish kingdom remained independent until 1706/7 that the two legal systems in regard to sovereignty were not, and never can be, compatible.

      So the Treaty of Union contains Article of Union Number 19. This Article of Union, (incidentally each Article of Union is, in itself a legally binding part of the treaty), states that both Kingdom’s legal systems shall remain sacrosanct in perpetuity – and was broken by Westminster before the ink was dry and hot wax seals had cooled.

      So there you go – Scotland is NOT a sovereign country unless a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland mandate their parliament to be so – and that mandate has not yet been delivered to a Parliament elected as such by the legally sovereign people of Scotland.

      Not only that but the people of Scotland does NOT mean only those born in Scotland or born of Scots parents in or outside Scotland.

      It means people who are mainly resident in Scotland and who register to vote in Scottish elections.

    175. Robert Graham says:

      Aye mc Sporran ,Split Hairs as they say, Please feel free to take a ticket and stick it up yer Arse ,
      In my humble opinion.

    176. frogesque says:

      @Socrates MacSporran 3.20

      Of course, if you count the dead scroats, sorry, dead stoats in the rejects Pensioner’s club then they are the 3 largest group of weasles.

      It’s the jolly old Westminster way.

      I also prefer to think of Marr and Cable as a couple of oversized nappies. Both prone to leak pish and shite.

    177. English Scots ???you can’t be fat and thin or tall and short these Incomers are English only a good example of your English Scot would be Alistair Darling ???

    178. Petra says:

      @ Breeks says: 17 September, 2017 at 3:02 pm: “Only while we as a sovereign country allow Westminster to wear the trousers.”

      @ Robert Peffers says at 4:28 pm …. ”Well first of all you miss the target by at least a trillion miles…… But I digress. In the first place your statement that, “Scotland is a sovereign country”, is quite wrong.

      Correctly the Scots are a sovereign people. Ergo and actions taken by our Scottish government must be by the request of a mandate from the sovereign people of Scotland and we do not, as yet, have such a majority mandate…..

      So there you go – Scotland is NOT a sovereign country unless a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland mandate their parliament to be so – and that mandate has not yet been delivered to a Parliament elected as such by the legally sovereign people of Scotland. Not only that but the people of Scotland does NOT mean only those born in Scotland or born of Scots parents in or outside Scotland. It means people who are mainly resident in Scotland and who register to vote in Scottish elections.”

      Thanks Robert for simplifying this …. like many others have tried to do …. once AGAIN. What’s not to get?

    179. galamcennalath says:

      @Blair Paterson

      IMO anyone living in Scotland who wants to see independence and is willing to vote YES can call themselves a Scot.

      And those who do, trying to persuade others to also vote YES, is a good thing.

      Next time we need to get more old people, those not born in Scotland, and EU citizens voting YES.

      And we need more young people to get off their arses.

      There are many born in Scotland who are willing to sell out the country and don’t deserve to be called Scots.

    180. Robert Peffers says:

      Stop the presses – we have a new headline on the BBC text service:-

      Boris Johnson admits to being an arse in a statement to the BBC, he claims, “I’m all Behind”.

      Boris Johnson says he is, “All Behind”, Theresa May, after setting out his own vision of, Britain after, “Brexit”.

    181. louis.b.argyll says:

      But the SNP sits in the UK parliament.

    182. jfngw says:

      @Socrates MacSporran 4.01

      When splitting hairs you should at least try and be correct, Cable said UK party, from your quote, not UK wide party. All parties are UK parties that stand in the GE, so he is still incorrect, and Marr didn’t bother to correct him. From this logic it would follow that UKIP is the fourth UK party, even without any MP’s.

    183. Petra says:

      Just listening to Alex Salmond’s programme and it’s excellent. A number of people have been phoning in, for example from Catalonia. One guy (didn’t pick up where he’s staying right now) has just stated that he’s got his postal vote off already via London. Alex laughing and said ”what a clever way to get round this.”

      ……………………………..

      In yesterdays’ National.

      ‘Parents’ fury as defence giant BAE delivers pupil workshop.’

      What you won’t be able to see is that the parents weren’t notified about this and that a number have spoken out against it now, such as one mother said ”I believe there is a hidden and sinister agenda to these visits. They are trying to normalise the defence and arms industry.”

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/15539169.Parents__fury_as_defence_giant_BAE_delivers_pupil_workshop/

    184. galamcennalath says:

      ” Sensational poll suggests SNP would make sweeping GAINS in an early Westminster election “

      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/sensational-poll-suggests-snp-would.html

      … and, a prediction from WoS Twitter …

      https://mobile.twitter.com/DavidJFHalliday/status/909402131177836544/photo/2

      One poll does not real gains make. However, good to see the SNP potentially doing well.

    185. Breeks says:

      “So there you go – Scotland is NOT a sovereign country unless a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland mandate their parliament to be so – and that mandate has not yet been delivered to a Parliament elected as such by the legally sovereign people of Scotland”.

      A majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland did however deliver a democratic mandate to remain in the EU.

      Rather than defeating ourselves with constitutional sophistry, why don’t we actually challenge Westminster’s mandate to overrule our sovereign majority? (By the same token, why don’t we challenge the SNP’s mandate to overrule our sovereign majority?)

      In Brexit we have the defining constitutional impasse and test case between Scottish Sovereignty and professed UK Parliamentary sovereignty. We have a democratic referendum result which is clear and unambiguous. Let us test the faux sovereignty of Westminster to destruction before the UN or European Court; not to seek a UDI or any such derivative for ourselves, but to seek a “UDR”, “You Don’t Rule” edict crafted specifically for Westminster.

      With our Sovereignty thus recognised and properly ratified, the whole Brexit narrative and Independence referendum take on a completely different tone and much more substantial aspect. Scotland the country would exist in the eyes of the world, with nothing to hinder our navigation on the global high sea except a crappy and dysfunctional piece of political dogma designed to constrain our Nation to exit and be well rid of.

      If that does not persuade you, then think of the alternative; Scotland squeezed out of Europe by a caretaker English government, overruling Scottish democracy, overruling Scottish sovereignty, and largely destroying Scotland’s economy and burgeoning Renewable Energy industry with no mandate even to govern. Do you honestly suppose a referendum held under such a cloud of ignominy would be recognised internationally as anything greater than a whimper? What kind of lame would-be country doesn’t even defend its own sovereignty from attack and subjugation?

    186. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Oh dear! I am splitting hairs and being wrong.

      FFS, Cable, like all Yoons, does not recognise the SNP as a UK party, so whether he says: “UK” or “UK wide” – he still does not recognise the SNP as being bought-into the primacy of Westminster.

      Here we are, arguing about a petty point, when we should be concentrating on the fact, Cable, like the rest of the Westminster insiders is an arse.

      Ignore their arrogance, concentrate on their many failings and past failures.

      NOTHING else matters but gaining our Independence. Don’t focus on small points let’s concentrate on the big issue – Independence.

      They will lie and cheat, we need not try to twist what he said to suit our narrative – leave that to Cable, out cause is just and will win in the end.

    187. Proud Cybernat says:

      Maybot’s EU divide & rule strategy exposed:

      On 22 September, Theresa May will make what has been flagged as a major speech – on a topic that is being withheld from the public, rather than the usual trails and leaks priming the population for what to expect and giving the the ‘commentariat’ time to tell us all what a great idea it is.

      The pro-Brexit organisation The Leave Alliance (TLA) claims to have ‘intel’ on the topic of the speech – and if it is correct, it will be the equivalent of throwing a live hand-grenade into a crowded room: carnage.

      TLA’s ‘intel’ suggests that May will announce the UK’s formal notice of its departure from the European Economic Area (EEA)…

      If this intel is correct, Theresa May is planning to unilaterally withdraw from the EEA now and attempt a ‘take it or leave it’ offer to negotiate individual deals with member states – the whole EU plus those shown in green or yellow above.

      Deals that will, somehow, include only ‘trading rules’ and not the movement of people – the Holy Grail/pipe-dream of right-wing ‘hard brexiteers’: a better deal (by their standards) than the UK has now as an EU member…

      From: https://skwawkbox.org/2017/09/14/may-to-announce-immediate-eea-exit-if-so-reveals-desperate-tory-delusion/

    188. HandandShrimp says:

      Whatever way Vince wants to project it, it is pretty clear who is collecting which shares of Short Money and who the third party in Westminster actually is.

    189. Petra says:

      ‘Scot Lord Dunlop appointed to head new industry panel.’

      What you may not be able to see.

      ‘Scot Andrew Dunlop was given a peerage by David Cameron in 2015 to take on the job of Scotland Office minister, but left Government after the General Election in June.

      Mundell said ”the UK Government’s new Scottish business taskforce will provide expert advice and guidance on how best to strengthen Scotland’s economy.

      We know that Scotland’s performance lags behind the rest of the UK, and we need to close that gap. As we develop our ambitious industrial strategy and negotiate new trade deals around the world, this expert panel will provide insight from a range of Scottish business sectors.”

      Mundell made the announcement before a visit to Paraguay and Argentina to promote Scottish business interests and build on cultural and educational links.’

      http://www.thenational.scot/business/15538910.Scot_Lord_Dunlop_appointed_to_head_new_industry_panel/

      ………………………………………..

      Dunlop was a member of the policy unit in Margaret Thatcher’s government with responsibility for taxation and Scottish affairs when the community charge, known more commonly as the poll tax, was introduced initially in SCOTLAND only in 1989.

      In 2012, Dunlop was appointed chief adviser to Prime Minister David Cameron. He played a key role in devising the British Government’s response to the Scottish Independence campaign, the outcome of which in the 2014 Scottish independence referendum result was for Scotland to remain as part of the Union.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Dunlop,_Baron_Dunlop

      Dunlop? Another one skittering through the job for the boys revolving door. One wonders what they are planning to get up to now and who else exactly is on the ‘expert panel’?

    190. Colin Alexander says:

      An encouraging story in the Herald saying support for indy has risen to 46% and support for the SNP is going down.

      The electorate are no longer fooled by the: “support for indy is the same as supporting the SNP” rubbish spouted by unionists and some SNPers alike.

      The SNP must deliver indy – or at least try their best to achieve indy (which they haven’t for 3 years) – or they face big losses at the next election, whenever that will be.

    191. Shinty says:

      Scot Finlayson @ 3.44pm

      Top billing for Reporting Scotland tomorrow evening?

      Well done Mark (whatever your views) what an astonishing achievement. Sincerely hope you get the credit your deserve and a well earned rest!

      Is there nothing we Scots cannot do? (apart from ticking the right box on a f***ing ballot paper)

    192. Proud Cybernat says:

      The SNP must deliver indy… or they face big losses at the next election, whenever that will be.

      Alas for you, laddie, just hoping something will happen won’t actually make it happen. Wishful thinking there, methinks.

      Noo away and take yer brain farts elsewhere.

    193. Colin Alexander says:

      @Breeks

      I totally agree. For years, the SNP correctly said: “the people of Scotland are sovereign”, and “we respect the democratic will of the people” so when Scotland voted Remain, that should have been the matter settled, at least for the SNP.

      The SNP should have said they cannot agree to anything less than EU membership for Scotland, as they are under an obligation to respect the sovereign and democratic will of the people, and that democratically decided will was to Remain in the EU.

      As the UK Govt refuse to recognise that, that triggered the mandate given to the SNP to deliver another indyref.

      So, there should be no Brexit negotiations whatsoever for Scotland, as it should be:

      EU membership or Indyref.

    194. Petra says:

      Some excellent articles in the Sunday Herald today.

      ‘China accused of being behind recent cyber attack on Scottish Parliament.’

      http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15540166.China_accused_of_being_behind_recent_cyber_attack_on_Scottish_Parliament/

      ………………………………………………..

      ‘Angus Robertson set to remain SNP deputy despite losing seat.’

      http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15540178.Angus_Robertson_set_to_remain_SNP_deputy_despite_losing_seat/?ref=mr&lp=3

      ………………………………………………

      Wha’s like us?

      ‘Professor Stephen Salter: Meet the Scot who’s invented a way to calm killer hurricanes.’

      What you won’t see:

      ‘The plan which became known as the Salter Sink was first presented in 2007 at a US Homeland Security meeting on storm suppression after after Hurricane Katrina in 2005 – which caused massive destruction in New Orleans – before it was developed by a tech company backed by billionaire Microsoft founder Bill Gates.

      Salter will unveil his new plan for spray ships on Wednesday at the Artic Science Conference 2017 in Oban, the town which is home to the sprawling European Marine Science Park.

      …………………..Salter calculates that he would need around 150 spray vessels to ”knock two or three degrees off the temperature that was driving Hurricane Irma.”… ”They’d cost about £3 million each.”

      Lots more to this article of course but I’m just thinking that these ships could be built in Scotland. Forget about Mundell and Dunlop et al.

      http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15540151.Meet_the_Scottish_professor_who_can_kill_hurricanes_and_control_the_weather/

    195. yesindyref2 says:

      Ach Jings, the SNP is NOT a UK party for Electoral Commission purposes, PPB, or broadcasting purposes, as it does NOT have candidates outside Scotland. It’s why it gets less representation come UK General Election time.

    196. Capella says:

      @ Petra – that’s Stephen Salter, inventor of the bobbing duck wave power generator. It was kyboshed by the Westminster Government in the 80s. They allowed the Nuclear industry to alter the report into wave power by inserting the word “not” here and there.

      This wiki entry wrongly states that it was the price of oil which was at fault before revealing the true culprit:

      However, because of the 1980s oil glut, the perceived need for immediate alternative energy sources declined and, in 1982, the Wave Energy program was disbanded. This ended the hope of having Salter’s duck become a mainstay in the alternative energy campaign.[5] After later investigation, it was discovered that the Energy Technology Support Unit’s cost determinations had mis-estimated the cost of building Salter’s duck by more than double the actual cost. The Energy Technology Support Unit[6] was set up in 1974 as an agency on behalf of the Department of Energy; though its function was to manage research programmes on renewable energy and energy conservation, it was operated by the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salter%27s_duck

    197. Jock McDonnell says:

      In today’s Sunday Times, Bowditch quotes former Labour adviser McLaren’s study that Scotland, Wales & NI have apparently all gone backwards under devolution, unlike England. Of course, might be something to do with England actually having a sovereign independent government with access to all the levers of power.
      Or, the stats might just be junk.

    198. Proud Cybernat says:

      Why Westminster is fighting tooth and claw to keep Scotland in bondage:

      https://imgur.com/a/K4zNO

    199. frogesque says:

      @ yesindyref2 6.16

      Maybe a case for standing a candidate for the Berwick on Tweed constituency?

      I know the SNP don’t normally stand in England but it might be an exception. It would certainly have the Unionariat frothing at the gills.

    200. scottieDog says:

      @proud cybernat
      And England’s trade deficit will get much larger post indy.
      Think of all that energy it will have to import..

    201. yesindyref2 says:

      @Petra
      Thanks for the link, interesting article. I didn’t bother with it from the headline, but the spray ships, if it can be proven, seems to a possibility – and he’s talking to Fergusons. With say a crew of 6, that would be a total of 900 worldwide – less than the crew of the QE carrier 🙂

      Ah, reading around it seems these would be unmanned, and around 300 tonnes. For comparison, the Scottish Government FPV Minna is 780 tonnes, a “standard” tug is 50 tonnes.

    202. yesindyref2 says:

      @frogesque
      There was talk about it Wings, and I seem to remember even the SNP had considered it. I think there are pros and cons when it comes to election coverage though, and perhaps too the SNP think it would be “cheeky” standing in English constituencies 🙂

      Though they’d probably have got a lot of votes there, pre-Corbyn at any rate.

    203. galamcennalath says:

      Proud Cybernat says:

      Why Westminster is fighting tooth and claw to keep Scotland in bondage

      A surplus! I would wager that is an underestimate and doesn’t reflect all goods leaving England which began their journey in Scotland.

      Also, if you consider an iScotland situation, I would also expect a BIG surplus in exports to rUK. Oil, gas, and electricity must mean massive export value to rUK. Perhaps this is the biggest reason for our bondage.

    204. galamcennalath says:

      @me & @Proud Cybernat

      …. and, what about all that oil loaded straight onto ships from platforms then moved directly abroad?

      Those represent HUGE exports.

    205. galamcennalath says:

      yesindyref2 says

      SNP think it would be “cheeky” standing in English constituencies

      So? The English parties stand in Scotland but not Northern Ireland. 😉

    206. Ottomanboi says:

      @Ribert Peffers
      Plainly we see this issue from different perspectives.

    207. Lochside says:

      Breeks….I see you’re getting brickbats for having the temerity to question the fact that our ‘sovereignty’ is being heavily shat upon to such an extent that we should actually attempt to exercise it and tell merrie England and its dominions to fuck right off.

      This ‘majority’ that the pedants keep insisting..is that the artificial fabricated con of another referendum on our own Independence?…like the last fixed one with all the bogus postal votes and absent non Scottish resident holiday home owners?

      Is that the one that Alex ‘three hours of ego tripping radio fun coming at you’ Salmond who dropped our very existence into a roulette wheel by allowing Cameron to set us up in the convoluted trap we now find ourselves in?

      Prior to the Edinburgh Agreement, the existing three GE results and the Scottish Parliament results, and of course the Brexit result, were constitutionally enough for us to state categorically to the world that the ‘majority’ i.e elected representatives of our Representative democracy were fully in favour of Independence and protecting our ‘sovereign ‘ laws which have been over ruled century by century by English law masquerading as ‘uk’.

      Our pathetic legal system and managerial SNP have bent over and allowed this situation to develop. The ‘UK’ Supreme court has the last say over our civil law and over our devolved parliament as the last few months have shown. Don’t forget it came into existence legally in 2009, while AS was complaining about it…but did nothing.

      So are we to remain ‘the do nothings’ whining about Referendums when all the time the illegal Tory regime is passing English laws and anti-democratic legislation designed to further destroy our democracy and our rights that we voted,and gave our parliament, the mandate to keep our dual EU citizenship? And …Said English tory regime, using their minority of Representatives to bulldoze us, and as guessed,is plotting to pull the plug and walk away paying nothing to the EU and subjugating Scotland forever?

      We have been over ruled and undermined in our nationhood the last three centuries. But only since a properly constituted full adult franchise was allowed, by the Reform Act of 1918 have we , the people of Scotland, been able to vote for who actually rules us. We must appeal to the UN as suggested by Prof. Alf Baird and Craig Murray as we soon will have nothing left to argue for.

    208. scottieDog says:

      “Also, if you consider an iScotland situation, I would also expect a BIG surplus in exports to rUK. Oil, gas, and electricity must mean massive export value to rUK. Perhaps this is the biggest reason for our bondage.”

      Yes this is THE reason. Neoliberal economics tells us that money is scarce whilst energy is an externality. It’s incredible how many yoons raise their eyebrows when you talk about the energy potential of scotland.

      Without energy the economy grinds to a halt. Without cheap accessible energy their is no growth.

    209. Math Campbell-Sturgess says:

      Oi Ronnie ya cheeky git!
      We arrived *early* this time.

      And aye, we over at English Scots do intend to do an Observer Mission.

      The only thing to decide is if we do a group one, we have to get accredited as a neutral group etc. which might be tricky given the time…

      If we go as individuals there’s a higher emphasis on being qualified to do it ie. we’re really talking about former MPs, professional pollsters etc.

      We’ll also need to raise some cash, at least a couple of grand…unsure at this time if this is feasible.

      Think we can do it?

    210. louis.b.argyll says:

      Aye,
      It’s our weather that still defines us.

      Our land and sea-scape, windmills in the face of the wind.
      Our ancient rock, shearing upwards, huge lochs in the clouds with dams and pylons.

      Our compensation is free energy.

    211. Petra says:

      @ ScottieDog at 7:14pm … ”Think of all of that energy it will have to import.”

      Aye oors ScottieDog!

      ……………………………..

      @ Capella at 6:22pm …. “Salter’s bobbing duck.”

      Thanks for that Capella. Very interesting. I’d read a similar article on Prof Salter before and just wonder what kind of Scotland we’d be living in now if we’d been independent years ago. We have the natural resources (riches) and assets, in particular human, to have made this country a world leader. Instead Scotland and Scots like Salter have been stymied at every turn by a BritNat establishment that lies through it’s teeth, suppresses information and doctors figures to suit their hellish agenda. If only everyone in Scotland knew what we know (we’d be Independent in a heart beat) and that’s probably very little at all in the scheme of things.

      ………………………………….

      Just reading through the SNP Baad posts on here and wondering what these people are going to talk about when Nicola Sturgeon announces an Indyref2 to give ALL sovereign Scots, including the 62% (of the 66% of the Scottish electorate who actually bothered to vote) who voted to remain in the EU, the opportunity to make a decision as to whether to remain in the Brexiting Union or not.

      Will they all disappear into the ether?

    212. yesindyref2 says:

      @Math
      If you can produce a report at the end of it, it may well have value to the Indy movement, hence a crowdfunder with useful product at the end of it, for real value!

    213. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Proud Cybernat –

      Totally excellent to meet you at last, and all the more enjoyable for being a complete surprise. I hope it wasn’t too alarming for you to see the ‘usual suspects’ up close in their natural habitat i.e. the pub.

      And where’s wur new pal, George? Aye, you! Thought you promised to stop lurking and check-in?

      Anyway, soo-perb talking to ye’s both, and a special shout for Craig Murray for just being a general all-round decent spud.

    214. yesindyref2 says:

      @scottieDog

      I need to update this sometime, but

      2015 total: Exports to rUK £45.884 bn, Imports from rUK £51.255 bn. (-£5.371 bn)“.

      https://yesindyref2.wordpress.com/2016/10/06/random-facts/

      If the UK “loses” Scotland, and if for some stupid reason there was no trade between Scotland and the rUK, the rUK balance of trade which is already negative globally, becomes even worse to the tune of £5 billion a year.

      Trade deficits are a part of currency strength and credit rating. The rUK could slip on both counts.

      However, I’m not sure if energy is a part of these figures. As we know, the statistics even if estimates are not neccessariky complete in terms of inter-region trading.

    215. John Young says:

      YES Dalbeattie held an excellent event last night. It was well attended by SNP MSPs, SNP Councillors and Yes supporters throughout Dumfries and Galloway. Great music and speakers.

      One of the guest speakers was the excellent Wee Ginger Dug. In a very informative and laugh out loud talk his main message was, do not use the term Unionist or Yoons, refer to them as British Nationalists which allows a direct comparison with Scottish Nationalists.

      He said everyone is a Nationalist so everyone in this country has a choice, be a British Nationalist or be a Scottish Nationalist.

    216. Conan the Librarian says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood

      Couldn’t get there for health reasons 🙁 Was Craig Murray in the pub?

    217. Ottomanboi says:

      The interesting element in the Catalan case is that something is being done which the Spanish government considers illegal. In Scotland there is a tendency to become enmeshed in legal proprieties; what I believe is called the ‘Scotch lawyer’ mentality. The day Scotland’s pro-independence leaders loosen up and boldly throw the conventions to the wind Westminster will have something to fear, will have met its match and been shown that we truly mean business.
      We know Westminster bends and waves the rules at will. Time we viewed those ‘rules’ in the same light.

    218. Phronesis says:

      A Nation with Ambition- yes we can:

      ‘As we reflect on the progress of the last decade and look ahead to the challenges and opportunities of the future, our purpose is clear – we want Scotland to be the best place in the world to bring up children, the best place to grow up and be educated, the best place to live, work, visit, invest and do business, the best place to be cared for in times of sickness, need or vulnerability and the best place to grow old.
      This programme sets out our next steps in creating the better future we all want for our nation’

      http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2017/09/8468.

      This progressive work- an embedded advice worker in GP practices had a positive impact on the financial status of economically vulnerable citizens;

      ‘These figures demonstrate the specific impact of the reforms on already economically vulnerable communities. Ultimately, Scotland’s poorest communities are expected to be most significantly impacted by the legislative changes and inherent financial reductions. Future reforms are predicted to adopt a similar pattern’

      http://www.gcph.co.uk/publications/728_the_deep_end_advice_worker_project_embedding_advice_in_general_practice

      Scotland is a nation with ambition- we are not a regional doormat nor a minor entity in the northern hemisphere-and our government and its representatives should reflect that.Those who prefer to support a political ideology that celebrates the presence of food banks (and Dickensian values),obscures Scotland’s true wealth and future potential, ignores Scotland’s right to remain in Europe,do not speak for Scotland.

      Words and deeds.

    219. yesindyref2 says:

      I was really impressed by Sturgeon’s use of the word “reset” about Indy ref 2, because the word has different meanings, and perhaps depends on your point of view. With her legal background I’m sure Sturgeon used it wisely and very cleverly:

      reset: set again or differently

      What I think we’ve seen this summer is a form of reset of the support for Indy which I think was dropping, but is now again rising. And the reason for this? I think it’s precisely because the SNP and the SG haven’t been going on about it.

      But it still needs the likes of Breeks, Lochside and others, to question the SNP about their motives, as they represent a part of the Indy movement which is naturally suspicious, and without that natural suspicion, we’d all be fools.

    220. Jock McDonnell says:

      @Ottomanboi – indeed, the law is not set in stone – it is what politicians make it & the people make the politicians – in a democracy anyway.
      As was pointed out on one of Nana’s links (can’t remember which – you will need to read to find out) even constitutions are imperfect & break down – Spain & France have had several versions so nothing is set in stone.
      It could even be argued that since the UK has no formal written constitution – it seems to evolve, change, adapt as the establishment desires – then it can be changed, perhaps even dissolved, through practice rather than strict legislation when it is not fit for purpose.

      Another interesting point in the Sunday Times poll if it hasn’t been mentioned already, is that pro-EU support is up to 65% now.
      We need to work hard, we have had some good polls in the last 2 weeks. We can get the momentum going our way.

    221. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ Ottomanboi

      Aye, but the First Minister IS a lawyer, so it’s not surprising.

      A bit of swagger and bait would be great, though. Haha, imagine it.

    222. Proud Cybernat says:

      The [lanets and stars are aligning:

      Support among Scots for staying in the European Union has increased slightly, a new poll suggests.

      The Panelbase survey for The Sunday Times puts backing for remaining in the bloc at 65%, up from 61% in January.

      From: https://stv.tv/news/politics/1397942-scots-support-for-staying-in-eu-has-risen-poll-suggests/

    223. Marker Post says:

      Despite what everyone says, people get encouraged or discouraged by poll results.

      But for me, what makes the latest one so interesting is that the SNP aren’t even mentioning independence, in fact, they haven’t mentioned it for almost 6 months. And yet, the numbers continue to rise.

      I was watching Dave McEwan Hill’s chat on YouTube earlier, there must be hundreds of Yes and Forward offices all up and down the country just thinking, strategising, preparing. It is them, in fact all of us, who need to do this ourselves. I occasionally get sucked into, “… the SNP should do this”, and “… the SNP should do that”. But it really is the grass roots that will win this, not the SNP.

      Plus, the media can’t attack the grass roots. Any individual politician is immediately pounced upon in the media. But they can’t attack the grass roots.

      All this seems to be flying under the radar of Joe Public in England at the moment. But wait until a poll puts Yes above 50%, as it must, then things will really get serious.

    224. Petra says:

      @ Lochside at 7:32pm ….”For us to state categorically to the world.”

      Forget about the world Lochside. What about starting with thinking about categorically stating to the OVER 50% of sovereign Scots, who seemingly don’t want to be Independent, that you’re dragging them out of the, in some cases beloved, Union? That’s no doubt what Nicola Sturgeon thinks about. How do you reckon dragging them out of the Union against their sovereign will would pan out? Riots in the streets? Not being dramatic, but a Civil War?

      The SNP are the only political party in this country that have brought us to the point of acquiring our Independence. The ONLY party that’s ever going to do so. The SNP Baad, Nicola Sturgeon Baad and now Alex Salmond Baad is Baad enough to hear / read about via the MSM. Having to listen to this from an increasing number of people on here, a supposedly pro-Independence site, is beyond the pale, IMO.

      Nicola Sturgeon reiterated just last week (in the National for those who care to buy it) that Indyref2 will be called when the Brexit deal is clear and is sticking to her timetable of next Autumn. I just wonder why some people on here take every opportunity they can get to run down the SNP? Wonder why they want to jump the gun and risk creating absolute havoc in Scotland? Worst still lose us the chance of ever becoming Independent at all. Why? Answers on a postcard.

    225. louis.b.argyll says:

      Had Scotland been free to think 40 years ago..

      We’d have built a dozen large hydro schemes and trialed numerous tidal theories, long before the modern wind boom.

      We’d be leaders in renewable generation manufacturing. We even have explored geothermal with our pals from Iceland.

      Instead, they’ve sold the national grid, we’re getting no carbon-capture, but our UK OWNERS will give us, Brexit, Trident, HS1,2&3 and Hinckley Point and some sections of stupid navy boats.

      We are already living the nightmare future.

    226. louis.b.argyll says:

      Yes Petra.

    227. Rock says:

      Petra,

      “Nicola Sturgeon reiterated just last week (in the National for those who care to buy it) that Indyref2 will be called when the Brexit deal is clear and is sticking to her timetable of next Autumn.”

      I can say with 100% confidence that Saint Theresa of England and Wales will deny permission to hold Indyref2.

      Do you believe that Nicola will dare defy her and call one anyway and risk a Catalonia like situation?

      I can say with 99% confidence that she will not.

    228. Proud Cybernat says:

      The FM must be patient and bide her time. As must we. If she called IndyRef2 before the Brexit deal is set in stone then the Maybot would simply halt Brexit negotiations until IndyRef2 was out of the way. And you know what woud happen then. We’d be getting promised all sorts of wonderful things when the Brexit negotiations start up again after IndyRef2. AScotland would get this, that and the next thing and, what’s more, it would be written into a cast iron Vow and plastered across the front page of the Daily Record for everyone to see.

      And then, when the British Nationalists get the result they want – well then you know EXACTLY what would happen.

      So we have to be patient about the Brexit deal and wait until the Maybot cannot back out of whatever is agreed with the EU27. THAT is when we make our move for only then can we know for certain the ground we are standing on.

      But we don’t hang around doing nothing. The SNP are merely the ‘key’ to the referendum. But us lot – the grassroots – are the means to turning that key and opening the door to our liberation. In the interim period we stick it to the BBC in Scotland; we get stuck into the MSM and we hammer every lie they make. We get all over them like a frigging rash. And we do that because, by the time IndyRef2 is finally called, a much bigger chunk of the population of this country will totally know the score of what the BBC / MSM in this country are up to. That’s what we do between now and the IndyRef2 starting gun – WE STICK IT TO THE CORRUPT & ROTTEN BBC & THE LICKSPITTLE MSM.

      BIG TIME. (Heard some cracking ideas in the Coonting Hoose last night – we don;t just talk about them. We DO THEM).

      We’re gonnae win IndyRef2, peeps! I honestly had me doots about IndyRef14 – not this time. We’re gonnae Nigel Tranter it!!

    229. sassenach says:

      Petra@8-45
      Well said.

      I used to thoroughly enjoy following this site, but , lately, have become quite sickened by what comes across as ‘in-fighting’.

      We expect the usual suspects to come on and try to divert and undermine – but when people I had considered true supporters of independence attack the only likely vehicle for that (ie the SNP) then I think I will just read Stu’s blog and ignore btl.

      Nothing will stop me voting SNP at every opportunity – get real some of you detractors.

    230. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Liz Rannoch @ 13:42,
      galamcennalath @ 14:18,
      Robert Graham @ 15:20,
      Socrates MacSporran @ 16:01, 17:09,
      jfngw @ 16:53,

      So much dancing, dear friends, on a pinhead! The basic point is surely that Cable finds a careful form of weasel words that not only artificially inflates the standing of his own party (which has basically no traction whatever on either side of the border) while at the same time he implicitly – and deliberately, since he’s no fool – dismisses the SNP as irrelevant within a UK context.

      Which twisty wordmongering reveals why most politicians, especially the BritNats in Scotland, are held in such contempt.

      And illustrates perfectly just how our supposed status as “equals” – or even “leaders”, as El Gordo would have it – is a complete fiction worthy of Baron Munchausen. The English Establishment doesn’t actually give a toss about us*. PSB’s please note. We’re entirely disposable.

      *Unless, that is, they think we’re going to upset their neat little UK applecart, then suddenly we’re “the tail wagging the dog”. Even though the DUP mysteriously aren’t.

    231. Rock says:

      Petra,

      “Some excellent articles in the Sunday Herald today.

      ‘China accused of being behind recent cyber attack on Scottish Parliament.’”

      Well they cannot always accuse Russia.

      What is “excellent” about such accusations or the reporting of such accusations?

      Has anyone not accused the UK black arts department?

    232. wee bud says:

      @ John Young

      I’ve always called them British Nationalists.. Yoon irritates them and unionist makes them feel good..

      Daft question folks but where do you find out about events and marches? I didn’t even know there was a march on Saturday..

    233. yesindyref2 says:

      Do you believe that Nicola will dare defy her and call one anyway and risk a Catalonia like situation?

      I can state with a 100% confidence that the situation regards Scotland v UK, and Catalonia v Spain, are absolutely and totally different.

      And that “defy” is a totally irrelevant word in the legal context.

    234. galamcennalath says:

      JLT says at 8:28am

      I can’t ever …ever …see any nation using nuclear weapons, no matter how bad things might be for them.

      The Israelis came very close in 1973 ….

      http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/06/opinion/the-last-nuclear-moment.html

      Also, we have to consider ‘mistakes’ …,

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_close_calls

      WMDs only make a dangerous world even more so.

    235. Petra says:

      @ Indyref2 at 8: PM …….. “But is still needs the likes of Breeks, Lochside and others to question the SNP about their motives as they represent a part of the Indy movement that is naturally suspicious, and without that natural suspicion, we’d all be fools.”

      You forgot to add your name to the list Indyref2. And do you know 100% who on here does support Independence? Most genuine Independence supporters on here are far from being fools or being easily fooled by the SNP, Unionist parties or more to the point other posters who visit this site, IMO: in increasing numbers as stated already.

    236. Proud Cybernat says:

      Demo outside the Scottish arliament this Thursday during FMQs (11am – 2pm). Details here:

      https://imgur.com/a/vLWmF

      Do share this and let the ‘Ruth Davidson No Surrender Party here you loud and proud’.

      Hope some of you can make it along. (When was the last time there was a demonstration outside a national parliament against the Official Opposition???? Normally it’s a demo against the standing Government. That just tells us how despicably low the Blue Tories have become in Scotland).

    237. Petra says:

      @ Jock and Proud Cybernat ……. ” Polls show support for remaining in the EU has risen to 65% in Scotland.”

      And let’s not forget that a poll showed that 92% of Scots who voted for Brexit want to stay in the single market. Which way will they vote when the chips are down?

      Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP will get us out of this Union, in the very near future, by holding a Referendum. The results of which will separate the wheat from the chaff and show that a MAJORITY of sovereign Scots want out of the Union. That’s the way to go, imo.

    238. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Conan the Librarian –

      Sorry to hear abut health ‘problems’ – hope they’re not too serious.

      Craig Murray certainly was in the pub, drinking whisky and making merry. What a lovely guy he is – just exactly as he always appears, nae sides to the man.

      Hope you can make the next one – depending on how certain discussions proceed after last night, it could be quite soon. I shouldn’t say too much but Proud Cybernat also alluded (above) to ideas being aired. SO keep watching this space!

      😉

    239. yesindyref2 says:

      @Petra: “You forgot to add your name to the list Indyref2.

      And why, exactly, should I add my name to the list? Did you not read the thread properly where I was debating with Breeks with a series of questions, and Socrates McSporran jumped in with both leaded feet, obviously replying to this post at 8.06 a.m. on 13th September, but wrongly attributing the posting to me? Actually spoiling what I thought was a good debate?

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/making-your-own-news/#comment-2299248

      As I say, people should read carefully for what is there, not what they assume to be there.

      It’s F.A.R.T. Petra – Facts, Reality, Actuality and Truth.

      Something some Wingers need to take to heart themselves.

    240. Alex Clark says:

      Personally and it is my choice just as it is yours I totally ignore posts from the ever depressed. I do this as I don’t want to become as depressed as they are.

      Stay positive, we’re doing something right, that’s for sure as they scream and panic in the media. All it needs to become Independent is belief and that’s a fact.

      Believe in yourselves and our government and the people of Scotland, encourage them and do your own small bit whatever that may be. Negativity is like a cancer, it spreads and eats at the body. We all want to avoid cancer, let’s be positive about what the future will bring. Ignore those that spread negativity, this is just another weapon in the British Nationalist propaganda armoury.

      Be positive, that way we WILL win this fight for Independence.

    241. yesindyref2 says:

      @Petra
      Actually, when I look at that posting of Breeks, he/she says, as though it’s from me:

      “@Breeks: “Our own SNP government has no faith in our sovereign strength. They prefer a soft Brexit for peace in our time.””

      It wasn’t me said that, it was Breeks at 2.26 a.m. at the end of Breek’s posting:

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/making-your-own-news/#comment-2299231

      People need to have an ability to follow threads, before accusing people on the wrong. Can you?

    242. Artyhetty says:

      Re;Scott Finlayson@3.44pm

      Amazing feat indeed. We can but hope that this achievment by Mark Beaumont will not be ignored by the britnats media outlets plc’s.

      Going on past history re Scots amazing acheivements though, it may pass without much comment in the yoon daily, monotonous tory,/red tory rags.

      James Hutton anyone? Many books on geology even now, hardly give him a passing glance, even though he discovered that the earth was er, rather ancient, according to actual scientific research about the rocks.

    243. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers,

      “To the extent I just gave up even attempting to debate with the numptie Rock who quite obviously cannot understand the English language that states, “The People of Scotland are legally sovereign”.”

      You are an aggressive verbal bully here and almost certainly a nasty person in real life.

      If you are as clever as you think, why don’t you have your own site to flog your “knowledge”?

      Instead of contaminating every article on someone else’s website with your verbal diarrhoea.

      Why haven’t you ever written a book on the history of the union?

    244. Petra says:

      Nations willing to use Nuclear bombs?

      Don’t forget that plans had been made to blow up an area in Caithness in the 1950’s. A decision taken by Westminster and experts at Aldermaston. The bomb was said to be as powerful as the one that was dropped on Hiroshima. The plan was abandoned because a scientist reckoned that the area was too wet. Climate not ideal. When that was called off areas in England were mentioned. Parliament went dokey. End of.

      Sorry can’t post a link.

    245. Smallaxe says:

      Petra, is this what you’re looking for?

      Experts nearly dropped an atomic bomb on a Scottish landmark in the 1950s;
      http://archive.is/sYFZF#selection-18221.0-18221.73

    246. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Rock says: at 8:54 pm.

      You typed,
      “Do you believe that Nicola will dare defy her and call one anyway and risk a Catalonia like situation?
      I can say with 99% confidence that she will not.”

      I’ve been deliberately neglecting to respond to your literal outpourings for ages but thought I would break the mould tonight.

      you DO gibber some absolute shit – without anything to back up your assertions. Please, desist. You and man @ C&A are only succeeding in diverting the online conversation, as is your wont.

      And I will slap my wrist for typing this response but, really, you are an @r$€. You were sussed out ages ago but you persist in your anti-independence rhetoric. No doubt you will answer this with your usual ‘copy & paste’ from your database.
      Really, give up. You are no longer of any relevance.

      PS: Sorry to have missed you in George Square and the Counting House yesterday.

    247. John Young says:

      wee bud says at 9:06 pm

      Thanks for your comment and good to know you’re well ahead of the game.

      I believe lack of publicity for events such as marches and general get togethers is huge weakness within the Yes movement. If you don’t do Facebook you will be unaware of so much that is happening.

      This is the main go to site for so many fellow Yesers.

      It would be marvelous if Stuart could be persuaded to display upcoming ‘events’, of which he would of course be notified, for the near future in a prominent position on his excellent site.

    248. yesindyref2 says:

      @Petra
      Did you read my replies to you, check it out, and realise you were wrong, that you accused me falsely?

      Well, did you?

    249. heedtracker says:

      Why haven’t you ever written a book on the history of the union?

      Come on Rock, his comments are terrific. Who knows what you’re about but its nice to see you have a new personal fart catcher in Colin A though.

    250. Rock says:

      sassenach,

      “Nothing will stop me voting SNP at every opportunity – get real some of you detractors.”

      For the avoidance of any doubt, I repeat what I have said many times:

      My mantra has long been and remains:

      “Always vote, and always vote SNP only until after independence.”

      That does not mean that the SNP is sacrosanct and beyond criticism as some “numpties” want us to believe.

      Nicola squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      Followed by the fall of SNP support from 50% to 37%, a loss of half a million voters and 23 MPs, at the last election held in Scotland.

      It is my prediction that there will be a “snap” Brexit and the SNP will be caught napping and unable to hold a second independence referendum.

      Scotland can never win as long as it plays by Westminster rules.

      I certainly cannot remain “positive” about independence under such circumstances.

      Unless I change my posting name.

    251. heedtracker says:

      My mantra has long been and remains:

      “Always vote, and always vote SNP only until after independence.”

      No its not Rockie boy. You’re just another I voted YES but, or I voted SNP but, everything else you btl commenterise about is either target and monstering individual WoS commenters, or the National newspaper, which is v v bad isnt it Rock.

      Just because gits like you decide people are mugs, doesn’t make it so. Keep this in mind for future reference.

      You are a lot like that twat lochside, who threatened us with the death by UVF earlier, so scary.

    252. Dr Jim says:

      Ask a question then wait for a respondent to bite, then aggressively ridicule the respondents answer

      Make a ridiculous statement of “fact” and wait once again
      as B4

      Once you have the argument going the hope is others will join in to defend the original respondent thereby disrupting the thread of reasonable discourse and you have mission accomplished

      These are the tools these useless Bastirts employ in what they see as their wee job, if you let them

    253. Petra says:

      I read all of the posts in relation to all of the articles.

      Facts, actuality, reality, and truth?

      Actuality for me is that the SNP is the ONLY party that’s going to get us our Independence. If one accepts that reality the fact of the matter is that everyone who runs down the SNP is trying to obscure that truth in an attempt to scupper our objective, that is, Independence for Scotland. For me it’s as simple as that. As clear as the nose on my face that if I wanted to destroy the Independence movement I’d start by going all out to discredit the SNP. Chip, chip chip away at their support.

      ………………………..

      You have to laugh at Vince Cable and the Libdems. They want to hold another EU referendum, and call it EUref1, because people were lied to first time round. On the otherhand they want to refuse US a second Referendum when they know full well that we were lied to, for ONE that we had to vote for the Union to stay in the EU. Hypocrites or what? It’s no wonder that the SNP is now the third party at Westminster.

    254. Capella says:

      James Hutton – the the Macaulay Institute in Aberdeen is now renamed the James Hutton Institute. There’s a cliff near St Abbs Head where he made his discovery about the age of the earth from the folds in the rock.

      Thomas Basset Macaulay was a Lewis man and chairman of Sun Life in Canada. Philanthropist.

      Patrick Geddes from Ballater – Ecologist, Town Planner, Sociologist, before any of these were actual scientific disciplines.

      Ian MacHarg – Landscape Architect and Planner who produced a humane design for new towns which was rejected by the Scottish Office because “it had not previously been done in England”.

      John Muir – established the Yellowstone National Park and the principle of saving wild land from the depredations of industrial capitalist exploitation. Now under attack by Donald trump.

      Just a few prophets without honour in the UK but honoured abroad. If it hasn’t emanated from the Greater Reich it isn’t important.

    255. heedtracker says:

      You have to laugh at Vince Cable and the Libdems.

      http://archive.is/s6Ofr

      They are treated still like the third party of the UKOK zone, by the great British 4th estate. Maybe if you’re Fleet street ed, pretending that the SNP just do not exist is one way to deal with them.

      Scotland is being treated like it just does not exist, by the 4th estate. When you go out and talk to Scots tomorrow going about their Scottish Monday business, notice how they no longer exist, they’re being faded out of the UK life and times, like Michael J Fox’s family in Back to the Future.

    256. Gary45% says:

      It doesn’t matter how many times you polish a turd,
      at the end of the day its still a turd!!!
      or a TORY.
      A quick look at MSM , the inbreds are calling for the most clueless “pm leader??” to sack Fuckwit Boris,it plays right into the morons hands.
      PM Boris is on the FUC*ING way!!
      Anyone for wifwaf.
      Oh aye great wee day in the weegie yesterday.

    257. scottieDog says:

      @yesindyref2
      I believe the good people at commonweal are researching an energy audit of scotlands resources..I believe the result is quite astounding with a vast energy surplus to boOT. Dangerous in a sense since most wars are down to resources – or lack of.

    258. galamcennalath says:

      Petra says:

      On the otherhand they want to refuse US a second Referendum when they know full well that we were lied to

      Indeed. The two referendums had a lot in common and both ended up complete cock ups.

      IMO the Alternative Vote referendum in 2011 was done properly (ignoring the crap pseudo PR system offered). A referendum should be to accept or reject a proposal for change, full thought through, published plan, lots of solid detail. Accept it, or fall back to the status quo – that should be the decision voters have to make.

      Our 2014 began on the right track with a clear proposal for Indy with lots of information to help with a decision. The ‘reject’ option of NO meant status quo. But that didn’t last for long! As soon as it got close the ‘status quo’ option changed to an enticing Indy-lite. Federal Devo Max. The problem was, of course, there was no firm proposal, no plan to deliver, no actual definition of what NO meant. IndyRef1 was derailed and settled nothing.

      Then came the Brexit vote. It should have been Cameron’s negotiated EU changes versus the status quo. Or, a firm set of plans, pre negotiated with the EU to Leave versus the status quo. It became both and neither all mixed up. The referendum was allowed to take place with a completely undefined Leave option. Leave won and ever since the debate has been about what it actually meant!

      Cameron has to take the blame for both. Two polling days, and on each the undefined zero plan option won. Monumental f*ck up, twice.

      In each, politicians’ lies and media propaganda won. Neither actually settled anything.

    259. Capella says:

      Oops – Yosemite National Park (John Muir).
      I must proof read before posting in future.

    260. cearc says:

      louis.b.argyll,

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2017/09/16/carbon-capture-and-storage-ccs-plans-to-go-ahead-in-scotland-regardless-of-uk-government-support/

      John Robertson’s site is really a great resource of Scottish good news. It is also a very good site to send less political, former no-voters, to. Being not overly political but showing the true position and possibilities in Scotland.

      His Scoop.It page shows each item.

      http://www.scoop.it/t/talking-up-scotland

    261. Tinto Chiel says:

      Capella @11.00: so right, particularly with two visionaries who effectively invented the fields of modern geology and environmentalism, Hutton and Muir.

      Air-brushed out of history, of course, by This Wonderful Union. If only they’d been born in Bognor Regis, it would have been so different..

      Not air-brushed, though, was a group of Glaswegian Fight Club types lionised on Pravdasound4 tonight at tea time: a strange bunch called “The 55” to commemorate the 55% who loyally voted No in 2014. All East-end types in Glesca love The Union, don’t they, chinas?

      And so it goes on, The Beeb perpetually parping out their pap until we all just give up and learn to love the Butcher’s Apron.

      As if…

    262. asklair says:

      John Muir view of “nonwhites” concerns me and the need of National Parks. Why do we need them, should we have them.

    263. Capella says:

      @ Tinto Chiel – and let’s not forget Thomas Muir, our very own hero for democracy, whose birthplace was sold by Glasgow City Council to a property developer to be turned into a residential home.

      Philistines! ( Not the present City Councillors who might be able to reverse those insults to our heritage.)

      But we could fill many blog pages with examples of bright, inventive Scottish pioneers whose memory is buried under the dross of the British Empire and its shills.

    264. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 23:06,

      Not to forget the role of the media in further confusing the issue by passing-on and amplifying outright lies.

      Today (Sun) on R4 lunchtime news, the announcer was ever so daring to declare out loud Boris’s new repeat of the £350M lie as being plain “wrong”. Oooh, only a year too late, brave little Auntie announcer. But where were you at the time when it actually mattered?

      The same programme also had some obviously knowledgeable economist on to explain that it would be near impossible that UKGov would be willing to continue to provide the equivalent amount of redistributive wealth transfer funding to Wales that it currently receives as a economically depressed area from the EU. Oh, another hard lesson in life and EU lies coming up for the Brexit-voting boyos of the Principality.

      Not to forget something similar that is coming down the track for the farmers and fishers of Scotland.

      Facts aren’t always enough to persuade people, but at least people should have got the chance to be made aware of them before they voted. Did they? Did they hell! The BBC only comes out with stuff now. How wonderfully useful is that?

      We all know that the papers are bought-and-sold lackeys of a handful of rich isolationist axe-grinders, but dear old BBC, being “neutral” does not mean passively relaying every campaign lie unchallenged, rather it is relentless fact-checking and drawing licence-payers’ attention to any liberties being taken with the verité.

      And not “daringly” doing it over a year later for the EU situation. As for the independence situation, we’re still waiting…

    265. Petra says:

      @ Smallaxe at 9:59pm …….. “Atomic Bomb.”

      That’s the one Smallaxe. Thanks X

      Planned to drop an atomic bomb in Scotland. Scuppered by our rain of all things. No thought given to the people. What’s new?

      No wonder they want to hang onto Scotland. Dump their Nuclear weapons at Faslane / Coulport, carry out experiments at Gruinard / now Anthrax Island, the Dunreay Nuclear site recently given a SEPA ‘at risk’ rating for the management of radioactive waste and Dalgety Bay said to be only site in the UK contaminated with radiation. Only one in Scotland? Add to that having knocked hundreds of £billions of our oil revenue, masses of areas across Scotland earmarked for fracking and their devious long term plan for our renewable energy sector. Then there’s hundreds of thousands of acres of Scottish land exempted from all of that to keep the hunting / fishing crew happy and plenty of cheap homes available to enable the holiday home rip off merchants have a wee holiday here now and again / rent out for a mint. Wee, poor Scotland NOT. Some Scots stupid?

      ……………………..

      @ Capella ….”Famous Scots.”

      I can’t wait for us to get our Independence and start renaming streets, sites etc after our MANY famous Scots, for example the over one hundred hospitals and clinics in Scotland. Call it the Scots answer to the ‘clearances.’ Clear the whole kit and caboodle out. Out of sight. Out of mind.

      …………………….

    266. Tinto Chiel says:

      I forgot this chiel, Capella, a man really whacked by the establishment for not being the Right Type:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Speirs_Bruce

      I remember Neil “Sylvrikin Boy” Oliver fronted a through-gritted-teeth documentary on Bruce a few years ago, memorable mainly for his facial expressions like chewing a wasp and eating lime pickle.

      This will all be exposed when I am Supreme History Commissar of the Scottish Republic, of course.

    267. Capella says:

      @ asklair – no idea what John Muir’s view of “non whites” was. Do enlighten us.

      As for National Parks – they are wild areas where the environment and its flora and fauna are protected, in most of the rest of the world. We only have this planet. It is insane to destroy it at the exponential rate at which we are currently destroying it. We have nowhere else to live.

      But in the UK, our National Parks are Category 4 National Parks i.e. “managed landscapes” where development is permitted with planning permission.

      We currently have a bill going through Holyrood which will allow managers of grouse moors to burn the moor even though there is natural regeneration of trees occurring. This would be unthinkable anywhere else.

      On April 21, 2013, the first ever John Muir Day was celebrated in Scotland.

      Muir’s attitude toward Native Americans evolved over his life. His earliest encounters were with the Winnebago Indians in Wisconsin, who begged for food and stole his favorite horse.
      In spite of that, he had a great deal of sympathy for their “being robbed of their lands and pushed ruthlessly back into narrower and narrower limits by alien races who were cutting off their means of livelihood.”

      His early encounters with the Paiute in California left him feeling ambivalent after seeing their lifestyle, which he described as “lazy” and “superstitious”.

      Ecofeminist philosopher Carolyn Merchant has criticized Muir, believing that he wrote disparagingly of the Native Americans he encountered in his early explorations.

      Later, after living with Indians, he praised and grew more respectful of their low impact on the wilderness, compared to the heavy impact by European-Americans.

      Muir was given the Stickeen (Muir’s spelling, coastal tribe) name “Ancoutahan” meaning “adopted chief”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Muir

    268. heedtracker says:

      asklair says:
      17 September, 2017 at 11:44 pm
      John Muir view of “nonwhites” concerns me and the need of National Parks. Why do we need them, should we have them.

      That’s a very Brit Scot view, or just the usual British attitude to Scots like Muir. It makes a lot of sense that England should boost up everything and anything English, they are the best after all. But god only knows why Scots do it.

      Its like the query, would the Brits ever launch a nuclear bomb attack? Ofcourse they would. This is the exact same freak show that launched hundreds of million of pounds worth of guided missiles into downtown Baghdad and various other Iraqi cities, from RN battleships, regardless of who these missiles would actually kill and maim, in Baghdad.

      If youre struggling with this British psychopathology, try to picture a lethal foreign force launching mass guided missile attacks on Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, Manchester, London, Paris, any European city at all, tonight. And all of these attacks based on one complete and utter lie.

      Our imperial master baiters in London have Trident because they want to use it.

    269. Capella says:

      @ Supreme History Commissar of the Scottish Republic – quite!
      @ Petra – @ Tinto Chiel – I think we’re on a roll here. Not so much “Famous Scots” as Scots-who-would-be-household-names-if this-was-a-normal-country. And will be soon.

    270. North chiel says:

      Re ” Petra @1041, Galamcennalth @ 1106 ” agree entirely with both posts,
      and RJS @ 2306, excellent post . ” facts are chiels that winna ding” ( since both Petra & Robert J . mentioned facts tonight).

    271. Ken500 says:

      Insanity

      Vic Cable thinks he can be Prime Mininster

      Delusional or what. It just gets more unbelieveable.

      Total unself awareness. . Well past the sell by date.

      Who do these incompetent ignoramous thing they are? Promoted totally beyond their capabilities. Trying to impose themselves on others. Beyond their reach. Beyond belief. This criminals lecturing others. Most of them should be in jail. They break the Laws that they make. He is responsible for the mess. Enabling the Tory ignorant incompetents. ‘Psycho bastards’. Illegally sanctioning and starving people. Ruining the world economy. £Trns in debt.

    272. ben madigan says:

      @Jock McDonnell who mentioned that :
      “Scotland, Wales & NI have apparently all gone backwards under devolution, unlike England”.

      Can’t speak for Scotland and Wales whose devolution periods have coincided with the banking crisis and austerity.

      if we consider NI started devolution when it was set up in 1921 the drop has been astounding, particularly when compared with how the ROI has done over the same period.

      There were ups and downs for both of course, the great depression, WWII, 30 years civil strife in NI –

      But the backward drift on NI is noteworthy.

      Here are some figures from then and last year

      In 1921 Northern Ireland had many advantages:

      it was more dynamic and developed than the republic;
      it had large industries and close ties to the UK;
      it had over 40% of the GNP of the island;
      Belfast was larger than Dublin;
      all its Westminster MPs were Unionists for many years.

      May 2016: Average GDP per capita of Northern Ireland is about £17,000 vs £29,000 per capita in the Republic.

      Relative poverty in Northern Ireland at 21% of the population and absolute poverty at 23%.

      In the Republic, relative poverty is 16.3% and absolute poverty at 8%.

      The economy of Northern Ireland shrank 0.8 per cent in the third quarter of 2015,vs a 7.8 rise in the Republic’s economy.

      Conclusions: Unionism and Britishness on the Brain severely damage the quality of life of people living under their domination.
      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2016/10/18/britishness-on-the-brain/

    273. Alex Clark says:

      @ben madigan

      Good post, nothing better than facts to piss off a British Unionist.

    274. Petra says:

      @ Heedtracker at 12:12am …..”It makes a lot of sense that England should boost up everything and anything English, they’re the best after all.”

      They’re not adverse at trying to con people into thinking that many famous people are English too, when they’re not. It’s not just revenue that they ‘steal.’ For example the Duke of Wellington was born in Dublin to parents who were both born in Ireland and Lawrence of Arabia was born in Wales to an Irish father and a Scottish mother.

      ……………………

      And yes Capella ‘famous’ was the wrong word to use. Famous Scots yes and those that we Scots deem to have made a positive difference. Every last one of them will be remembered, forevermore, when we get our Independence. Our history will also be belted out on a daily basis too when we have our own broadcasting service. God I can’t wait for it all to happen.

    275. Cactus says:

      Here we are… three years to the day.

      The next best bit will be when the First Minister of the Scottish Government announces words to the tune of:

      “…therefore, due to the aforementioned, the necessary referendum will be held to ask the people of Scotland whether, we should become an independent country again.”

      “The date set for this Scottish referendum will be…”

      “The date set for Scotland’s Independence day will be…”

      At that precise moment, that’s when we rise up!

      It’s gonna be more than an amazing feeling. 🙂

    276. Davie Oga says:

      Robert J Sutherland says
      Oh, another hard lesson in life and EU lies coming up for the Brexit-voting boyos of the Principality.

      I think that you will find that Welsh constituencies that voted high percentage s for leave were areas that had been recipients of large scale migration from England. In fact if you transpose a map of Welsh speakers density with an EU referendum result map, it illustrates a clear link between Welshness and pro-EU sentiment. It may be hasty to ascribe responsibility to the ‘boyos’.

    277. Cactus says:

      I can see into the future, here’s some helpful information for ye awe…

      The next Glasgow march and rally for independence will be:

      Saturday the 15th September 2018.
      (unless of course we’re all already independent by then.)

      Mark that X on your Scottish Calendar 2018.

    278. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Davie Oga @ 01:05,

      Thank you Davie for that interesting elaboration. Evidently there’s more happening there “under the surface” than graciously being revealed by the BBC.

      Isn’t it funny (but not humourous) that all the English ex-pats emigrants settled elsewhere in the EU are conversely all getting very unhappy indeed about Brexit?

    279. Ken500 says:

      Westminster criminals

      Sticking their nose into Spain/Catalonia/EU business.

      Defrauding and embezzling from Scotland for years. Lying and trying to hide it. Fiddling the figures and lying about it. Hiding it under the Offical Secrets Act. Totally illegal behaviour. Then lie when they are found out. They will say anything. To try and cover up. For the trouble they cause. Total hypocrites.

      Tryng to take the UK out of the EU, against the majority wishes and the publc interest. So they can line ther pockets and tax evade. Greedy, lazy ignorant incompetents. Ruining the world economy. Sanctioning and starving people. So they can squander, embezzle and defraud public money. If anyone complains or finds them out. They and their sychopants tell a pack of lies. Illegally attacking others worldwide. Conceited and arrogant beyond belief. Lining their pockets on other people’s misery. They do not care a damn about anyone else than themselves. Manipulating and greed of public money on unearned income. The majority EU members care more about the world and try to support each other.

    280. Cactus says:

      Here’s a future-thought…

      Upon Yes.

      The membership of the Scottish National Party will more than double.

      Viva Catalunya! (13 days to go Barcelona…)

    281. Cactus says:

      @The nuclear umbrella ~

      Hey, I heard Chris say over on twitter that the language symbols on the notice-board of the toon are for like.

      Would there be anyone who could translate for us?

      Thanks in advance.

    282. Cactus says:

      Hehe, the chap cowering under the table in the picture reminded me of this guy on the RHS:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45SvWoan-oo

      This chap is chatty.

    283. Cactus says:

      “I would rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.”

      How does that taste William Wallace hehe?

      Fun times 😉

    284. @Petra

      Captain Cook`s father was Scottish.

      There is a Netflix film being shot just now about Robert the Bruce called `Outlaw King`

      Chris Pine playing King Robert,with Scottish writer/director David Mackenzie,

      i`m sure the film will be well received by our `national` media with a thumbs up from the cringing scotyoon historians and graverobbers,

      Anyhoo,

      keep up the good posts.

    285. yesindyref2 says:

      @Petra
      You very clearly did NOT read my posts on that thread. I did not “runs down the SNP”. So No, you don’t read every post or if you do, you didn’t understand it, or notice who was saying what in the discussion.

      And no, the fact is NOT that “the SNP is the ONLY party that’s going to get us our Independence”.

      Without the Green party for instance there wouldn’t even be a majority in Holyrood now, a majority that passed the Holyrood vote for Indy Ref 2.

      And there are many others who DON’T support the SNP, but who nevertheless support Independence. On top of that there are also many who are patiently “lending” their vote to the SNP, for the sake of Independence.

      Failure to recongise that is a failure to recognise the reality of the situation: not everybody supports everything the SNP do. Otherwise there wouldn’t even be an SNP Conference, motions, heated debate, close votes. And that’s just for those few thousand attend the Conferences.

      The SNP is the major political party that supports Indy, Indy itself will be won, as others have said, by the grassroots, including many who support no party at all.

      It will be won by hearts and minds, not insults and false accusations.

    286. Cactus says:

      Trident?

      Weapons of Nuclear Mass Destruction?

      Whose intended purpose is the innocent death of mass civilisation?

      What’s that awe about?

      FREE The Clyde!

    287. David MacGille-Mhuire says:

      Cactus ranting reveller stravaiging
      Re up thread plea by you for a translation of this toon Nipponese in aye its linguistic variations – thought ye of bunging off a copy of Mr Cairn’s cracking effort to a Japanese organization near you?

      Betcha they love it but with reservations as they may see themselves portrayed as too Korean.

      Nonetheless, splendid stuff.

      You on the randan in Tokyo anytime soon hence?

      A heavy bevvy would most certainly be on the cards therein and therefore.

      Meantime, boogie on, barbed wire pear of the desert.

    288. Cactus says:

      Aye aye David MacGille-Mhuire ~ 🙂

      One is often around the fine City of iGlasgow bro.

      I also now know the numbers in Nipponese from 1 to 12.

    289. Cactus says:

      SO when did their air-raid sirens go off at?

      7:05am or 7:05pm?

      Day or night?

      It must have been the morning if they’re taking cover in a classroom.

      Strike a pose for your desk.

    290. yesindyref2 says:

      Just been trying to find out the “programme motion ” for the EU Withdrawal Bill, and it appears there will be 8 days for committees. Plus a hint that there would be hundreds of amendments end October after the Conservative conference, which seems to indicate 3rd and final reading then in the HoC. So onto the Lords, back finally to the Commons for, what, beginning of December? Royal Assent to be end of January perhaps, but before or after that, the refused LCM perhaps.

      So what happens after a refused LCM for the EU Withdrawal Bill, apart from a Constitutional crisis? Would this mean the need for some form of referendum in Scotland?

      Would that mean we’re looking at the possibility of a Ref – end March or in April / May 2018 – one to save the Scottish Parliament from extinction by the only means possible – Independence?

      Enquiring minds would like to know.

    291. Jim says:

      Just read that James Dornan tweet about how the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority have in some cases, denied children compensation saying, “where the sexual activity is truly of the applicant’s free will no crime of violence will have occurred”.

      Due to the backlash against this, CICA revised their guidance and now state “that victims of child sexual abuse can still be disqualified from compensation on the basis that “consent ‘in fact’ is different from consent ‘in law’.”

      This is an absolutely disgusting charter to somehow normalise pedophilia and more people need to be made aware of what the lunatics are trying to do!

      If they ever achieve their ultimate goal, what next, beastiality and necrophilia?

    292. Lochside says:

      Petra, I’ve always admired your energy and positivity ever since you joined this site. But unfortunately, you seem to be joining in with the stalinist approach common to some of the zealots on here.

      If you read my post that you didn’t agree with, you will see that I am not suggesting dragging anyone into a potential ‘civil war’. I am suggesting the SG appeal to the UN on grounds of our sovereignty and democratic rights being suborned. This raises the appeal beyond a another simple binary win or lose rigged Referendum. We need International support at a time when we are being slowly dragged into totaL assimilation by England.

      I am a member of the SNP, and will remain so ,active and challenging at any backsliding to managerial style capitulation of the Independence narrative. I will not give way on my implacable belief in our right to Independence. What surprises me and disappoints is the constant refusal to accept any dissent on here because it might supposedly give succour to the Brits.
      Well the media are doing this every day and the SG and the Yes movement before it have done nothing to counter it.

      The 50% who have not moved to Indy, only read and hear that media, they are not interested in the internecine disagreements on this site. The sign of vitality in the movement is characterised by the dynamic of disagreement and debate. My criticism of AS is one of regret, but also of frustration at the dilettantism of someone who should be leading not pontificating on a radio show.

    293. Ken500 says:

      The ignorant, unionists incompetents could have voted down the evel Bill. Thry could have voted down May and the Tories on 12th Sept 2017. May and Tories could have been out now. Dugdale and Flint et al left them to do even more damage to the world economy. Criminals who break the Law and cause so much misery to so many people. Ruin the economy. Waste publc money to line their own pockets.

      They are despicable. A dereliction of duty and the Oath they took to safeguard others. Masons are not fit people for public Offce. The Tories supported by the DUP. The Westminster regime will collapse they are unfit people to run a Government. Scotland will have it’s Independence. There is nothing surer. It will lead on to prosperity.

      Thank goodness for the SNP in Scotland. Dread to think of the mess when left to the appalling incompetence of the unionist/greens. Destroying Cities and local economies all over Scotland. Wasting public money, like there is no tomorrow. Reneging on every promise and policy. Making life for others harder. They care nothing for anyone else but their themselves and their insatiable greed. They are against the majority wishes and the publc interest.,

      Get away from the Rocky Horror show. Trying to destroy the world economy. Westminster rotten to the core. For peace, prosperity, more equality and happiness. Break Westminster’s power to detroy the world economy. Vote them down.before it is too late.

      Vote SNP/SNP for FFA/Independence. To have an even better run country. Goodness knows where Scotland would be without the SNP Gov standing up for Scotland. The onslaught of the Tory/unionist sycophants and their cronies. Draining Scotland of it’s resources and prosperity by chronic mismanagement and incompetence ignorance.

    294. Abulhaq says:

      Apparently, according to The National, some 2000 diehards turned out in Glasgow for a rally supporting independence. With all respect to the attendees unless the turnout numbers are multiples of 100k we do our cause a psychological disservice.
      Polls indicate support is stuck at around 45% but the SNP is slipping and Labour seemingly recovering. The SNP conference is going to have to be an all guns blazing super mega-production to re-energize this entire show.

    295. heedtracker says:

      Very good Guardian report on sepsis. Graun certainly not blaming UK gov, hardly mentioning let alone blaming Westminster. BBC Scotland gimp network grab sepsis issue, monster SNP Scots gov, Holyrood. THe 2 worlds of UKOK attack propaganda, that flips completely when it gets to Pacific Quay.

      Sepsis: the truth about this hidden killer
      Sepsis is responsible for more deaths in the UK than bowel, breast and prostate cancer combined. So why is so little known about it?

      http://archive.is/0ZQgQ

      Sepsis decision ‘putting lives at risk’ – BBC News
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-41095949
      4 Sep 2017 – A call for a national campaign to raise awareness of sepsis has been rejected by the Scottish government, BBC Scotland can reveal.
      ‘I lost my wife and unborn daughter to sepsis’ – BBC News
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-41097469
      4 Sep 2017 – Craig is now the chairman and trustee of the Fiona Elizabeth Agnew Trust (FEAT), the Scottish sepsis charity he set up in his wife’s memory.
      Sepsis campaigner angry at lack of government action – BBC News
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/…scotland…/sepsis-campaigner-angry-at-lack-of-government-action
      4 Sep 2017 – A campaigner who lost his wife and unborn child to sepsis is angered after the Scottish government decided a public awareness campaign was …

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-39472452
      3 Apr 2017 – A widower campaigning to raise public awareness of sepsis says he is “astonished” some health … By Fiona Stalker BBC Scotland reporter.

    296. Grouse Beater says:

      Abulhaq: “With all respect to the attendees unless the turnout numbers are multiples of 100k we do our cause a psychological disservice.”

      No ‘we’ don’t. Counting numbers in one place is self-defeating. The Catalan vote is down, yet they congregate in thousands. And when was the SNP ‘slipping’?

      Lochside: What surprises me and disappoints is the constant refusal to accept any dissent on here because it might supposedly give succour to the Brits.

      The reason so many of us don’t post often is the site gets knocked around by dissent. And can we drop the ‘zealots’? It’s you that’s crying revolution now

    297. Nana says:

      Apologies for late links this morning, computer updates took longer than usual

      https://www.snp.org/delivering_for_dundee

      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-16/u-k-businesses-urge-may-to-seek-three-year-brexit-transition

      Deprive the people of their culture….
      Franco’s Suppression of the Catalan Language in 1939.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXPXFR9LVZM

    298. galamcennalath says:

      From WoS twitter

      Should Scotland be an independent country? (under 34s/over 55s):
      Yes: 66/33%
      No: 34/67%
      (Survation, 14/9/17

      The secret to winning IndyRef2 is getting the under 34s out to vote AND promising that an iScotland will have much better European style state pensions.

    299. Dr Jim says:

      @Petra

      I agree with you on the SNP, the people who don’t agree are folk who are further to the left or further to the right and both these sets of people wont meet in the middle which is where the SNP are

      The difference between both sides is the Socialist side are happy to use the SNP to get what they want (a socialist country) but the problem with that is the folk on the right are totally put off by that idea and won’t vote for it which leaves the Centrists in the position of having to be all things to all people and that’s a difficult position to pull off

      I believe more folk would be brought over to the side of Independence if it were not for the fear of Scotland becoming Socialist or Tory which kinda looks like it proves the theory that Centrism should work if all the people trusted the other side, but they don’t

      Socialism doesn’t work and neither does Capitalism in terms of the health of a Nation, both these ideologies are for the dark ages and we need a modern approach which is what I believe the SNP bring, because within the party there are both sides who compromise with each other to get the job done of managing the country in the best interests of all

      If only everybody else did the same thing and chucked out ideology for practicality I believe Independence would come much more quickly

      London always wins no matter which side loses, so Scotland never wins, and London is very happy with that continuing just fine, keeping the Jocks arguing with themselves is good business for them

      John Bercows big word of every day “Division”

    300. Tinto Chiel says:

      Nana: thanks in particular for the clip on Catalan. I had been aware of the economic migrants from other parts of Spain in the 70s etc but the penny hadn’t dropped about the linguistic significance of all that.

      Sounds kinda familiar, doesn’t it?

    301. heedtracker says:

      Lochside says:
      18 September, 2017 at 8:19 am
      Petra, I’ve always admired your energy and positivity ever since you joined this site. But unfortunately, you seem to be joining in with the stalinist approach common to some of the zealots on here.

      What a twat:D

      Catalan independence the Spanish gov is trying to close down. Its interesting.

      https://www.ref1oct.eu/en/

    302. Capella says:

      Nicola Sturgeon spelt out in a Conference speech a couple of years ago where the SNP stand politically – a left of centre party. They always have been, from the beginning.
      http://www.electricscotland.com/history/mcintyre/index.htm

      The Labour Party used to be a left of centre party until Tony Blair abandoned that ground in order to be a better manager of capitalism than the Tories (not difficult).

      The SNP would be mad to give up that winning policy stance and that is why Labour hate them with a vengeance.

    303. louis.b.argyll says:

      cearc: 11:20 pm

      Thanks for the link..

      Even though it’s positive that Scotgov can foot bill for new feasibility study, the UK MINISTERS pulled a perfectly logical deal, billion pound funding was there but declined on colonial austerity grounds.

    304. Alex Clark says:

      @Nana

      Thanks again for all the links, some very interesting reading for this morning. Your links and the alternative insight some bring into what is really going on are for me a very important part of what Wings is about. That is getting information out there.

      Ta very much.

    305. Nana says:

      @Tinto Chiel It sure does, suppress the culture and voice of the people. Westminster are masters of the art of suppression.

      @Alex Clark
      You are welcome, I do what I can Alex. Some days the news is a bit sparse but I try to provide interesting links

      Here’s a couple from Smallaxe who can’t be with us this morning.

      https://scottovoce.wordpress.com/2017/09/18/forgive-the-farmers/

      Boris Johnson struck first against Theresa May to avoid being Brexit fall guy
      http://archive.is/lMQsO#selection-173.0-173.77

    306. Nana says:

      A few more from me

      SNP appoints ‘sleaze-finder’ to dig into activities of past Labour councils
      http://archive.is/B7aDm

      https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/did-theresa-may-mislead-parliament-over-her-1-billion-deal-with-the-dup-1.3224921

      http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/09/18/boris-johnson-is-a-bullshitter/

      Deportation threats, driving licence revoked, child benefit stopped – all for living legally in the UK
      http://archive.is/h0dTG

    307. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ottomanboi says: 17 September, 2017 at 7:30 pm:

      “@Ribert Peffers
      Plainly we see this issue from different perspectives.

      Aye! You mean like the right perspective & the wrong perspective.

      As usual I explained the logic and often I will also indicate the sources.

      In this case the source is in the text of the Declaration of Arbroath that is the prime basis for the independent Scottish Rule of Law – This part:-

      “Yet if he should give up what he has begun, seeking to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own right and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King; for, as long as a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be subjected to the lordship of the English. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.

      In that paragraph it was made clear to the Pope, (who was then the supreme international leader of all Christendom), that King Robert was not a sovereign monarch. As the people of Scotland could sack him and appoint someone else as their appointed protector of the people’s sovereignty it was clear the people had to be sovereign to do so. The Pope accepted the Declaration and it became established as the independent rule of law of Scotland and it still is so.

      There is absolutely no doubt that under Scots law the people, and neither the monarch nor the parliament were.

      Whereas in the three country Kingdom of England, (by the Glorious Revolution of 1688), the Monarch of England remained sovereign but had to legally, (that is by English law), delegate the royal sovereignty to the Parliament of England.

      Westminster is NOT the legal parliament of England. No Parliament of England has been elected since the last one wound itself up on the last day of April 1707 and it is recorded thus in Hansard.

    308. Breeks says:

      heedtracker says:
      18 September, 2017 at 9:36 am

      “What a twat:D”

      How constructive. An articulate Scotsman speaks up for the defence of his sovereign birthright, something the SNP steadfastly refuses to do, and he gets called a twat for his trouble.

      I was half joking a few days ago when I said the SNP risks being outmanoeuvred on Sovereignty by a Scottish UKIP style, single issue, breakaway group which stands up for the fundamental issue of Scotland’s sovereignty the way UKIP muscled in on the Westminster Tories to get their way over a Brexit referendum.

      I am absolutely no fan or advocate of UKIP in any respect, but the SNP’s lacklustre indifference towards Scottish Sovereignty bears striking similarities to the hubris of the Tories as they failed to either satisfy or contain their Euroskeptic dissenters, and eventually forfeited the initiative over a Brexit referendum to the more radical fundamentalists.

      The most thought provoking response you get from the SNP is an ill-tempered “who else you gonna vote for if you want Independence eh?”

      The great “tell” in the SNP’s hand in this game of constitutional poker, is that the CORRECT handling of Scotland’s legitimate Sovereignty would be successful in securing our Sovereign credentials, but critically, it would NOT be dependent on, or hostage to, anybody voting for anybody else.

      Handled correctly, Sovereignty would transform a dubious democratic referendum which we all know will be manipulated by voting irregularities, unchecked propaganda, illicit mismanagement of the Independence narrative, and transform the present day scenario into a new reality where our Sovereignty was properly enshrined at the centre of our Constitution where it belongs, and the democracy of the people respected in a subsequent ratification plebiscite. Our Sovereignty would given sacrosanct primacy, with our Democracy being the lesser instrument through which our sovereignty was exercised.

      In any run up to any such ratification plebiscite, you probably wouldn’t squeeze a cigarette paper between me and the SNP Policy. BUT! Without first making safe our Sovereignty, then I cannot endorse the SNP’s strategy, simply because it is illogical, reckless and wrong.

      If the SNP cannot start getting sovereignty “right”, or at worst, properly explain their reluctance to stand up for our sovereignty, then I’m sorry, far from being the only party who can deliver Scottish Independence, to my mind, they are sailing dangerously close to being the front running political party most likely to screw the whole thing up.

      I want nothing better than the pro Independence movement to be 100% behind the SNP in voting to ratify our sovereign Independence in the coming months, just like it was in 2014, but instead, the SNP seems hellbent on creating this great division between political idealists putting all their faith in democracy, leaflets, and doorstepping voters, and the sovereign fundamentalists like myself who are absolutely horrified and appalled that the sanctity and primacy of Scottish Sovereignty is being left hostage to an ephemeral democratic mandate. An ephemeral democratic mandate that is itself left hostage to hostile propagandists and media manipulators.

      Now you can dismiss these comments as SNPBad, and chunter on about poor wee Nicola this, and poor wee Alex Salmond that, but be clear, the SNP made a big constitutional mistake in not defending Scotland’s sovereign vote to remain in Europe, and unless and until that blunder has been corrected, then they have made a rod for their own backs.

      Please, I appeal to all SNP members and supporters, do not miss the last opportunity to correct this situation at your Autumn Conference; embrace Scotland’s sovereign authority by honouring our EU Remain Vote, not just to keep Scotland in Europe, but more importantly, to ratify the potency of our sovereignty.

    309. heedtracker says:

      Breeks says:
      18 September, 2017 at 10:52 am
      heedtracker says:
      18 September, 2017 at 9:36 am

      “What a twat:D”

      Lochside can dish out, so he can certainly take it right back.

      Wet farts like that aside, Breeks, you guys keep going on and on about sovereignty but why not just save us all a lot of time and say what you really mean, that you want UDI declared today?

      So this kind of hoohaa might be fun to type Breeks,

      “An ephemeral democratic mandate that is itself left hostage to hostile propagandists and media manipulators.

      Now you can dismiss these comments as SNPBad, and chunter on about poor wee Nicola this, and poor wee Alex Salmond that, but be clear, the SNP made a big constitutional mistake in not defending Scotland’s sovereign vote to remain in Europe, and unless and until that blunder has been corrected, then they have made a rod for their own backs”

      but as we all know, Scotland voted NO in 2014. That’s not the end of it ofcourse but its only going to be through a referendum
      like 2014 that Scotland will become a nation state again.

      Hope this helps.

      If you do want UDI, why not start up your own UDI for Scotland party Breeks?

    310. Daisy Walker says:

      Some random thoughts.

      Firstly big thanks to Nana for the links. I really look forward to them and learn a lot. Your a star.

      And on the subject of one of them – sad to see a continuing ‘distancing’ by the Canary re fair reporting of Scotland’s situation. Ever since Corbyn found his pulse, they’ve dropped us like a hot stone… not needed now.

      Which brings me to a long held feeling, now formed into a thought. I found many English sympathisers for Scottish Indy – just as keen to keep Scotland shackled – they just had a nice veneer of ‘socialism’ over the top.

      The use of the term British Nationalism – instead of yoons, etc. Absolutely. But beyond that, and if circumstances call for, I’m very fed up with English Nationalism wrapping itself up in a Union Jack and Stamping the word British on the label, to water down their sins and appropriate other countries good stuff. British Nationalism is English Nationalism – that was what the structure was built and designed for. That’s its whole purpose.

      Missed opportunities re timing of calling this and that… maybe, but I think its more like trying to get a large ship to change direction. And it is moving.

      There are things I would like to see the SNP do, but fair do’s to them, what they are achieving in Government just now is bloody good considering. In Indy Ref 1, they had to play catch up with the YES movement. The same is going to happen here. Let them be good at their job and us be good at ours. ‘mon the grass roots.

      That’ll do the noo. Cheerie.

    311. Breeks says:

      “…. you guys keep going on and on about sovereignty but why not just save us all a lot of time and say what you really mean, that you want UDI declared….”

      Why don’t you save us repeating ourselves and actually listen?

      When you say UDI, you clearly imagine a Rhodesia type scenario which falters and fails through lack of legitimacy and absence of international recognition.

      When I say UDI,… err,… em, Oh yeah, that’s right, I don’t advocate a UDI, nor indeed a Civil War.

      I am advocating that we adhere to the principles of our existing sovereignty, whereby the sovereign will of the people as expressed in Scotland’s remain vote, is respected and upheld AS sovereign. We do not have to initiate any forlorn misadventure, raise the clans, agitate rebellion or provoke hostility in the streets. All we do is refer Westminster to the letter of the Law – Scots Law. They are not sovereign, the Scottish people are, and hence Scotland remains in Europe by sovereign edict of the people.

      All we have to do is present Westminster’s Brexit misadventure with the immoveable roadblock of Scotland’s sovereign decision to remain in Europe.
      Since Westminster cannot reconcile the end of the UK with Scotland remaining in Europe, it should properly be Westminster with Hobson’s choice of cancelling Brexit to respect Scottish Sovereignty and preserve the Union, or to proceed with Brexit knowing that it has no sovereign jurisdiction or mandate to overrule Scotland’s sovereign decision to remain.

      If Westminster chose to abandon Brexit through deference to Scottish sovereignty, then the United Kingdom would have to reconcile that Westminster had no such thing as Parliamentary Sovereignty over Scotland, and the UK could only then survive as a confederal union between two sovereign countries. Good luck with that can of worms, but don’t completely rule it out either.

      If however Westminster decided to proceed with Brexit despite being fully aware it had no constitutional mandate to overrule the Sovereign choice of Scotland to remain, then the end of the Union would be a de facto consequence of Westminster’s actions, where the rest of the UK was responsible for tearing itself away from the EU, the EU which incuded Scotland, rather than indulge the inflammatory rhetoric of Scotland provoking the constitutional crisis.

      If the SNP wants to play the waiting game, then so be it. But FFS make constructive use of the time to make certain every country in the UN, EU, every man, woman and child throughout Europe and Scotland is fully briefed and understands the constitutional status of Scotland’s inalienable sovereignty.

      Right now however, the SNP is doing the polar opposite. Instead of defending the constitutional principle of sovereignty, it sets it aside, belittles its significance, and panders to, and thus gives more credence to, Westminster’s arguments about Parliamentary sovereignty. That is a catastrophic error that needs to be corrected.

      To portray Scotland’s options as merely a UDI doomed to failure and civil disorder is very narrow minded, unimaginative, and frankly disingenuous.

    312. Petra says:

      Oh my goodness I see that we’ve moved on again and that a number of people have posted a message to me on here. I don’t have the time to reply to everyone, sorry, however I’ll respond to Lochside’s ‘Petra come Stalin’ post, lol.

      Lochside: ”Now … a Stalinist approach common to some zealots on here.”

      A Stalinistic type of fanatic in other words! Ha, ha, ha. FGS Lochside get real. Suffice to say I don’t think that I’ve changed at all from the day that I joined this site. I want Scotland to be Independent, end of, and to do that as I see it I (we, imo) have to support the SNP, warts and all, until such time as we get our Independence and then vote for / support whomever I (you) like.

      The Britnat Establishment has identified THE greatest threat to the Union as being Nicola Sturgeon / the SNP (not the Greens or the grassroots) and that’s why they’ve made HER and HER Government a KEY target. The last thing that we need is for Independence supporters doing likewise on here, making her / the SNP a KEY target, as undermining support for her / her Government is one of their clear objectives to scuppering our plans.

      ”The SG should appeal to the UN on grounds of our sovereignty and democratic rights being suborned.”

      Well who’s to say that Nicola Sturgeon’s not planning to do just that, Lochside? We don’t know if our sovereignty and democratic rights have been breached yet (other than what’s been going on for over 300 years). For all we know Westminster could decide to stay in the single market / Customs Union or for that matter to remain in the EU (however unlikely). She’d be seen as being a bit of a numpty appealing to the UN right now, as things stand, don’t you think? Additionally she’s already stated that as soon as the Brexit situation is made clear, by next autumn, she’ll make a move in relation to calling for another Referendum. She’s also indicated, that if T May continues with her ”now is not the time”, she has other avenues to pursue (and maybe even in conjunction with). ‘Avenues’ that she’s obviously not going to outline to the Westminster Government or the MSM. That in turn of course means that we are, unfortunately, kept in the dark also. She may have been in talks, tentative discussions, with UN officials already, unbenownst to all, and if her track record is anything to go by I’m sure that’s exactly what she’s been doing.

      ”What surprises me and disappoints is the constant refusal to accept any dissent on here because it might supposedly give succour to the Brits.”

      Constant refusal to accept any dissent? If by that you mean people like me being totally scunnered by ever increasing numbers of people coming on here to castigate the SNP constantly, well yes you’re correct. How exactly is that going to help us to get our Independence? That’s precisely what the BritNat establishment want, FGS it’s basic knowledge, and people like you are falling right into their trap, imo. As far as I know this is the ONLY pro-Independence site, of it’s type, on the Internet and for that very reason the one that BritNats zero in on. It’s one that thousands of people visit on a weekly basis. To my mind this site is all about rebutting Unionists lies, in particular the MSM lies, educating ourselves and getting some facts out there in an attempt to influence opinion: push up the stats in our favour. How does running the SNP down, and harping on about sovereignty constantly, help our cause? It doesn’t. Far from it.

      ”The 50% who have not moved to Indy, only read and hear that media, they are not interested in the internecine disagreements on this site.”

      If that’s the case this site has become pointess, redundant, don’t you think? And if anyone does happen to venture on here the ‘internecine disagreements’ will no doubt repulse them. Another Unionist strategy that seems to be working.

      ” My criticism of AS is one of regret, but also of frustration at the dilettantism of someone who should be leading not pontificating on a radio show.”

      I don’t know how often I’ve heard people on here saying that they would like to see some pro-Independence politicians having access to Media outlets, in particular one that can influence a large number of people, and both reflect and shape prevailing currents of thought. And now that we have one such person, ideal person, people like you are still griping. More, much more, than just griping. I don’t get it. Your comments about Alex Salmond in fact aren’t dissimilar to those that were posted on the LBC site prior to Alex Salmond’s programme being broadcast and every last one of the posts were from nasty BritNats. That’s the people who want to undermine Alex Salmond and the Independence movement. Strange one, eh?

      As to pontificating on a radio show? Did you actually listen to the three hour programme yesterday, note the subjects that were covered and the individuals who phoned in including experts / politicians from the UK, US, Spain, Burma etc? The programme was absolutely EXCELLENT and to my mind there’s more than one way to skin a cat, such as by turning the tables on the Westminster establishment whenever you get the chance. Maybe that’s Alex, the dillettante, way of thinking too.



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