Wings Over Scotland

Johnson will be getting canned tonight.

Again..

Seriously though, surviving a no confidence vote with a substantial amount voting against him and talking afterwards of moving on. Guess it’s more of the same, sheer incompetence and totally out of touch with the reality of ordinary people.

Republicofscotland says:

“He (Craig Murray) states that the conditions for a fair indyref in Scotland simply do not exist and have not existed at all.”

I agree entirely with that assessment too, Republic of Scotland.

The history here is also quite interesting.

link to en.wikipedia.org

, McLeod noticed that the unicorn is chained, having chains runs around its body, McLeod pointed out that it represented Scotland’s place in the union chained to it, he tried to climb the pylon and remove the chain but was chased by the police he got away and the chain remains around the unicorn to this day.

There are different interpretations of the chain, whether it denotes bondage, or denotes the opposite of bondage, because the Unicorn cannot be chained. Sometimes the chain is broken, or not attached. Sometimes it’s interpreted as the Scottish crown asserting itself on the Scottish people. But whatever, it predates the Union, when Scotland’s emblem had 2 unicorns.

Incidentally, in terms of heraldic oneupmanship, the “Royal” emblem of the lion and the unicorn is Scotland’s pre – Union emblem with a lion added to it.

The weird thing, is that the chain is affixed to a crown around unicorns neck, not a collar which denotes slavery or servitude. You have Mayors wearing chains too, as jewellery of office.

What confuses the matter is unicorns appearing in other cultures, and presumptions made that every theory must be accurate.

In my own humble opinion, it’s heraldic jewellery, a bit of pomp. If you put a crown on the head of unicorn, it clashes with the horn, but without some bling, your unicorn might be mistaken for an ordinary horse. Thus I think the heraldic craftspeople tried to be a little creative, put the crown that couldn’t fit on his head around the neck, and embellished the significance of a Unicorn chained or not chained.

But what you can say for definite, it ISN’T denoting Scotland chained in Union. The chain was there a long time before, since 12th century King William 1, (who was incidentally taken captive by the English… so perhaps it does make some original reference to captivity).

It’s a great pity that nobody shall ever know what Scotland lost when Edward 1 stole Scotland’s records, which were then lost at sea. The loss is unknown and sadly incalculable, although in fairness, I don’t suppose Edward 1 was particularly pleased about losing the documents either. What an archive that must have been…

One thing that really does get under my skin is why the decades Scotland defended itself from invasion and colonial aggression from England is referred to as the wars of Scottish Independence. Scotland was expelling a foreign colonial invader. That is not a war of independence. Expelling the German from France in WW2 wasn’t a battle of French Independence was it?

@Breeks says:7 June, 2022 at 6:35 am

“Scotland was expelling a foreign colonial invader. That is not a war of independence.”

Naw. Colonialism as an idea surfaced around 1500. You’re talking about events 200 years or so earlier.

Lots of people nowadays insist on re-interpreting history to suit modern narratives. Try to resist that urge.

Breeks @ 6.35

“One thing that really does get under my skin is why the decades Scotland defended itself from invasion and colonial aggression from England is referred to as the wars of Scottish Independence. Scotland was expelling a foreign colonial invader. That is not a war of independence. Expelling the German from France in WW2 wasn’t a battle of French Independence was it?”

Yes, the historical narrative of a colony is always distorted; this is perhaps where an oppressed people begin to realise they are not an independence movement but rather a liberation movement, the latter holding recognised status in international law.

BREEKS.
06:35
If you wish to destroy a nation first destroy its historic artifacts. Religious foundations were the original state archives. As you know they were often the subject of attack both local and in particular foreign. What the Viking and English invaders didn’t get the Calvinist zealots did.
History is precious, truly, when its physical elements are taken away it’s lost.
The English managed to keep a little more but not that much more as the destruction of the monasteries was catastrophic. However, with a good measure of imagination and the imperial project they have reconstructed elements of their history à la oxbridge school.
Many Scots, seem to neglect or feel uncomfortable with the cultural patrimony aspect, not a sound idea.

Andy Ellis says:
6 June, 2022 at 8:41 pm

My wife, like others not born here, is entitled to a vote.

That makes your wife a Scottish voter. I would question your wife’s sanity if she told me in her English accent that she was Scottish born & bred in England to English parent as Ruth Wishart has suggested.

Last time around during the ‘IndyRef Dress Rehearsal’ having dual British-Scottish nationality was of more interest than it is now.

twathater says:
7 June, 2022 at 3:05 am

Ellis again quoting the revs words , so what Stuart Campbell has a different opinion from some of us re the franchise , I’ll bet he also has different opinions from others regarding his food dishes or his enjoyment of keeping rats as pets , so Andy being the perpetual crawling sycophant do you also keep rats as pets and do you eat the same food as Stu or do you dress the same as Stu

And there’s his views on Gaelic. From what I remember the Rev hates the Gaelic more importantly there’s the Rev’s swearing or Tourette’s as Andy might call it.

“Who supports Craig’s cunning plan then?”

Ellis.

Probably a lot more folk than you think, however with Sturgeon behind the wheel it will never see the light of day. Like Craig Murray says it will be impossible to hold a fair indyref in Scotland the bias of the foreign media that broadcasts into every Scottish home puts paid to that.

“He’s effectively advocating a tartan Tooting Popular Front”

I find the above offensive to Scots, and it clearly shows your colours to me. Craig Murray spent time in prison to bring us the fit up of Alex Salmond, without his reporting on the kangaroo court case we’d still be in most part in the dark.

So when Craig who has been an ambassador for the UK for many years, and has a wealth of experience puts forward the idea of an assembly or Scottish MPs and MSPs at Holyrood to declare Scottish independence we should listen to what he says, for unlike you he has Scotland’s interests at heart.

It can be done, we just need the right FM in place.

Saffron Robe 11.16pm.

Yes I think there’s many folk who would agree that Craig’s route is the most likely way out of this rancid union. To be quite honest I don’t want Sturgeon anywhere near the helm when the time comes to exit this union, especially not organising a a botched indyref next year.

@twatbynametwatbynature 3.05 am

1) “…so what Stuart Campbell has a different opinion from some of us re the franchise”
The point of re-iterating Stu Campbell’s fisking of what passes for the nativist argument, and reminding regressive ethnic nationalists about it regularly, is that you and your unsavoury cabal insist on coming on to his blog – the most influential in Scottish independence circles – spreading your blut und boden poison, despite the fact that his position is the mainstream civic nationalist view held by the overwhelming majority of pro-independence folk and by EVERY SINGLE pro independence party.

Your deeply regressive world view has the support of precisely no influential figures within the movement, just a bunch of fringe cranks. That’s why it’s important to keep reminding people of the fact that you’re fluffing a narrative which quite apart from being morally wrong and politically ruinous, enjoys negligible popular support.

2) “WHAT is the point of a referendum we already had one and we know what the outcome was..”
Surely sovereign Scots get to have as many referendums as they like, whenever they like, on whatever terms they like? No true nationalist could believe otherwise. Just because we lost in 2014 doesn’t mean we give up: that a unionist narrative. there’s certainly little prospect of the current SNP delivering a referendum any time soon, but that’s a different matter.

As many others, including Stu Campbell, have observed the Scottish Government should have put the matter of whether Holyrood had the legal competence to hold a non-S30 sanctioned referendum beyond legal doubt several years ago. The fact they didn’t was a hug tell about their lack of appetite for the fight. The logic of the 2014 franchise is quite clear. It’s progressive, widely accepted and supported and conforms with legal, constitutional and historical precedent: yet you and your nativist ilk want to endanger the civic nationalist nature of the whole movement in a fit of pique against non-native Scots for voting the wrong way.

3)”STU has been extremely vociferous and radical in his objections to this legislation as I have , are you as vociferous and radical Andy..”
I’m just as opposed to GRA as Stu and many other in here, and lost my twitter account for denying that TWAW. I don’t owe you or any other regressive ethnic nationalists any other explanation, nor is the matter at all relevant to this issue. the reason you’re trying to divert the conversation on to it is because you know you’re losing the franchise restriction argument.

As per usual, neither you nor any of the other ethnic nationalists can marshal a coherent counter to Stu Campbell’s original twitter monstering of the nativist position. Unsurprisingly you fall back on othering the opposition as closet unionists, Sturgeonites and not “real” Scots at all. That kind of thing turns the stomachs of the vast majority of people in the movement.

3) “You maintain you are a civic minded nationalist who insists that anyone from anywhere has a right to vote on Scotland’s independence YET you are totally and viscerally opposed to the GRA and the civic compassion extended by the FM to all people’s from anywhere to relocate to Scotland and create a safe and secure trans haven.”
I am a civic nationalist. You and those like you advocating the disenfranchisement of 20% of Scots voters on the basis of birth are not. That’s in line with the values and wishes of the overwhelming majority of the movement and of right thinking people. Similarly, I am like Stu and many others viscerally opposed to the current proposals to “reform” GRA, and the agenda of TRA’s more generally, because I believe they are fundamentally illiberal, mysoginistic and a danger not just to women’s rights but to civil liberties in general. Again my views represent those of the overwhelming majority. I’m not the one who is out of step. I’m not the one promoting a profoundly regressive narrative.

Unsurprisingly you’re all over the place logically here, trying to forge some spurious linkage between my opposition to the regressive nativism inherent in franchise restriction, and my support for gender critical views. Your argument, much like most of your contribution is incoherent.

@Tourette’s Ruby 8.36 am

“I though I knew what being a Scottish woman was but now I haven’t a clue. I’ve been robbed on two counts. Basically anyone can be Scottish & anyone can be a woman.”

I think we can all heartily concur that you haven’t a clue Ruby. Anyone reading your output can quickly ascertain that. So tell us, what’s your hot take on who counts as sufficiently Scottish to be “allowed” to vote then Ruby? Is it:

a) the same franchise as 2014;
b) only people born in Scotland;
c) only people who can prove residence for a minimum period of “X” years;
d) only people who can prove their ancestors have lived here for say 2 generations and produce proof like a tartan Ahnenpaß?

Also, if you’re so keen on restricting rights to the ethnically entitled, would you support Scots born people abroad being able to register to vote?

After all, they would be entitled to cliam Scottish citizenship post independence, so don’t they deserve a say?

@ Andy Ellis

This franchise thing has been done to death, but something which you pretty much always fail to mention when quoting Stu, is that he also stated btl on a ScotGoesPop article that he had no significant issue with looking at tightening up the qualifying residency criteria with regard to temporary residents such as transient workers and students.
If you are a “permanent resident” which is something many of the franchises from elsewhere that you have linked to that support your position, then things like your driving license, passport, vehicle registration document, car / house insurance declarations should all be at that Scottish address and prove that you are at actually living in Scotland as your primary residence.

@Republicofscotland 10:38pm
We have a Scottish broadcast media that supports the FM in office. Another example being on May 4th 7:27 I relayed the evidence on this blog that the flagship policy of Minimum Pricing Policy had failed. Reported this morning on the BBC Radio Scotland when the gaze was elsewhere. They neglected to mention the price tag of 270 million picked up by the Scottish economy. I am packing for my annual holiday. D Ross has done more flip flops than I put in my baggage. Great time to go on holiday. More SNP media contortions coming up later this week. However I think the 20million will be well spent. We need clarity on these legal issues. I have my attention on delays and cancellations now, a feature of travel these days.

Breeks says: 7 June, 2022 at 9:03 am

Scotland’s strategic location once again pivotal.

Iceland’s was more pivotal in the ferry route for the B-17s coming to the Western Theatre – so much so that it was invaded by the US and UK in WW2, and the Icelandics never forgave either for it (much of the venom of the Cod Wars revolved around people wanting to settle a score as much as dealing with the blind stupidity of other nations towards fishing stock levels).

Once Fascist Portugal finally found a legal excuse to give Britain aid by leasing airbases (bought and paid by the US, but under British control as per terms) and aircraft could fly the shorter and safer Azores – St Mawgan route, the need for the “North Atlantic Route” declined (except, ironically, during the winter).

If you ever feel the need for amusement, the many ways “neutral” Ireland, Portugal and Sweden managed to have their cake and eat it during WW2 are always worth reading about.

@Mark Boyle 11.29 am

“If you ever feel the need for amusement, the many ways “neutral” Ireland, Portugal and Sweden managed to have their cake and eat it during WW2 are always worth reading about.”

I suppose the Swedes were in a pretty difficult position. They’d watched the Finns fight off the Russians in the Winter War with no support from Britain and France, then seen the Finns join the Germans as co-belligerents when the Germans invaded Russia.

I had a Swedish colleague whose father was in the Swedish armed forces during WW2 in the north guarding the Norwegian border. According to her, all Swedes at the time were anti-German and helped Norwegian refugees and resistance fighters as far as they could, often at considerable personal risk. Her own father couldn’t stand Germans because of what he saw happen to people trying to escape in to Sweden, oftentimes being captured or killed in sight of the Swedish border.

According to my friend, and some other Swedish people I’ve talked to since, the Swedes were under few illusions that if they’d fought the Germans they’d have lost – even if they would have extracted a relatively high price from the Germans compared with their relatively easy take over in Denmark, and the failed Anglo-French attempt to help Norway. In the end however, it would only have resulted in one outcome, which would doubtless have been much worse for Swedes and many of those who took shelter there during the war, including 90% of Denmark’s Jews who were protected by the Danes until they were given refuge in Sweden in 1943.

Doubtless the Swedes are no more perfect than any other people, but I think the compromises they had to make with respect to iron ore supplies, troops transporting across their territory etc. were probably the minimum they could get away with. They played a bad hand pretty well.

George Ferguson @11.16am.

Enjoy your holiday.

Andy Ellis says: 7 June, 2022 at 12:29 pm

I suppose the Swedes were in a pretty difficult position. They’d watched the Finns fight off the Russians in the Winter War with no support from Britain and France, then seen the Finns join the Germans as co-belligerents when the Germans invaded Russia.

The Swedes often get it in the neck owing to them selling iron ore and timber to the Nazis. They were also the one surefire escape route for Jews from both Hitler and (until they were useful to him) Stalin.

An appreciable number of Swedish volunteers fought and died in the two Winter Wars, but also volunteered when the Nazi divisions refused to leave Finnish territory upon it dropping out of the war (the so-called Lapland War, where the Finns outnumbered three to one sent the Nazis packing). Their solidarity towards their fellow Scandinavians is pretty admirable.

Only the Scots should vote in in an election for Scottish independence.

To avoid bias,
To avoid British Colonialism.
To avoid influence.
To avoid distrust of our neighbour.
To avoid racism.

@George Ferguson says:7 June, 2022 at 10:29 am

That all seems quite sensible to me, and exactly the sort of “gradualist” approach needed when Indy support is stuck at 45%

Of course, given that the vast majority of Scots want to know what’s in it for them, the lack of clarity on the currency question will be what kills it.

Oh well, they can’t say nobody told them.

@Vlad’s ding-a-ling 12.43 pm

“I’m not commenting in here to convince the likes of you, however when a half arsed indyref doesn’t materialise next year folk might begin to say wait a minute this S30 route is non starter.”

Just as well, because you’re not very convincing as the lack of support for your shilling for the aggressors in the current war, and for the bonkers UDI plans adequately attest. The dogs in the street know there will be no indyref in 2023. It’s evident to all but the most blinkered of Sturgeonite cultists. The issue is what happens when the scales fall from their eyes.

Will they depose Sturgeon and her cabal and change policy, or just get rid of her but bimble along much as before insisting there is no alternative to a Gold Standard S30 sanctioned referendum?

Will they actually take the matter to court when BoJo says: “You’ve have had your referendum: once in a generation and all that, get back to us in 2039”, and get a definitive judgement as to whether Holyrood has the competence to hold referendums on independence.

If the court’s answer is no, will the SNP (whoever is leading it at that point) change tack and advocate for plebiscitary elections? It would seem logical, but who knows?

UDI is an instrument of last resort. It’s a weapon available to any people when it comes to self determination, but using it is never easy as precedent shows. Even when it works, as it has up to a point in Kosovo, it’s in response to a level of violence and repression that places like Scotland and Catalonia just can’t demonstrate.

The international community won’t recognise UDI’s unless in exceptional circumstances. Places trying it without sufficient cause or powerful external support fail to gain recognition: Northern Cyprus, Transnistria, North Ossetia, Abkhazia, Somaliland. Interestingly of course quite a few of these are pretendy countries fluffed by your mate Vlad to weaken surrounding countries so he can re-establish a neo Russian Empire. Strange that someone who purports to be a supporter of Scottish nationalism and self determination is content to be a shill for an imperialist like Vlad.

The political difference between Scotland and Catalonia is recognised Sovereignty of the Scots by the British Parliament and all politicians.

It is a shame Catalonian’s people were never recognised as people with a right to sovereignty through the right of self determination the by the UN.

The political starting point of Scotland and Catalonia people diffirenciate this aspect,
However union lovers usually try tie these two Groups of people together in a parallel universe.

@Breeks 4.12 pm

Wouldn’t £2 billion be better spent upgrading rail links between Scotland’s major cities and upgrading other infrastructure?

Yes i think people born in Scotland may Scottish would be viable for a vote.

You and I andy, I think not,

If England wanted a vote on only English related issues only, they would seldom see the likes of windrush drama citizens as English or even british, even for those born second generation.

This is happening to other migrational people being shipped abroad right now by the british government

The uk government removed other migrational people from Scotland.
This british standard of judging who is and who is not a migrational people apparently is either by place of birth for up to two generations.

If i do not get to vote during Scottish independence I would consider this fair democracy in light of the above standard.

Equality in treatment towards migrational people, or selective processing,

However your daughter is the same position as my son more or less.

My son was born here, second generation to the rest of his uncles and aunties and has children, lived here most of his life, and latterly move abroad.

We cant have different standards for different people just because it puts our noses out of joint,
Scots are Scots as race of people,

Any forced intrusion to satisfy ourselves appears colonial to say the least.

Andy,
Sorry I missed answering the last part of you’re question, my apologies.

The residence criteria would be up to the Scots, its their vote, in their country and it is they that hold sovereignty to choose.

James Che. says: 7 June, 2022 at 1:58 pm

To avoid bias,
To avoid British Colonialism.
To avoid influence.
To avoid distrust of our neighbour.
To avoid racism.

1. How does that guarantee avoiding bias? What about those people who were told days before the election by their employers in meetings “It’s like this, if Yes wins, we’ll be looking at moving the business down south … no pressure!” – as Ian Blackford should know VERY WELL!

2. What about if they’re “‘Ra People” right up to their knees in it (and other substances) as their, ahem “Culture” staunchly demands?

3. See Point 1 again.

4 & 5. Whom, no matter how the vote goes, are going to be mightily peed off with Scotland and the Scottish for decades to come. What happens when in places some Labour or Tory decides two can play that game when their canvassers tell them their main opponent is heavily reliant on Scottish immigrant votes to keep their seat? Past events have shown once that djinn’s out of the bottle, there’s a great difficulty in getting it back in.

In the 1970s the National Front got quite a bit of mileage out of demanding immigrants were removed from the electorate register, then claiming they’d have won a particular council/Parliamentary seat if all the immigrants had been debarred from voting. “To avoid racism”? It would be chucking petrol onto a bonfire.

The 77th brigade Intel group are fair churning out the propoganda this weather they are here 24/7 churning out their negativity , if you look they have SWAMPED the comments section for weeks with only their normal rest days off , they feel so unsuccessful in their attempts at turning indy supporters against independence they are having to bring in extra personnel and create additional hijacking with an even greater amount of negativity

Keeping the uk union safe requires constant vigilance and even greater legends

Twathater@5.38pm.

Well said and well noticed.

@Tourette’s Ruby 5.37 pm

I doubt I’m the only one who thinks that Scots who don’t think Scotland should be an independent country aren’t really Scottish they’re actually British, because they don’t have enough belief in their own country as a “real” country, it’s just a glorified county of the United Kingdom with a colourful history that really ought to be satisfied with its status as North Britain, and give up any pretensions to being anything more, in much the same way as Bavarians are mostly content to be just Germans despite the conceit of “Freistaat Bayern”, the funny accent and the attachment to their own branded CSU conservative party.

Doubtless we all know some convinced “Proud Scot but….” types who will ostentatiously decline to become Scottish citizens post independence. So be it. Let them retain their UK passport and citizenship and live here without the rights of full citizens, but as any other foreign nationals amongst us. I see no need to apologise for holding the view that such people are British, not Scottish. As Derek Bateman said in the Wee Black Book:

“It is only here in Scotland that we pirouette on the head of a pin over patriotism and nationalism. Who else have you ever met who boasted:

‘I love my country but don’t want it to govern itself. I much prefer it to be in a minority in another parliament where it can always be outvoted and where parties we don’t support will dictate our budget and policies. I don’t think my country should have independence because it really wouldn’t be able to do the job properly.’

Most foreign listeners would reply: ‘Then it’s not your country at all. You can’t care enough about it to call it your nation. You may call yourself Scottish but you are in fact British. Britain is your country.’ ”

Quite!

I very much doubt I’m the only one who thinks it is entirely reasonable that post independence people make a choice: either they are Scottish citizens, or they are not. If enough of the “Proud Scot but…” brigade elect not to take Scottish citizenship, then so much the better as far as I’m concerned.

@Tourette’s Ruby 6.17 pm

1) “Do you believe that everyone born in Scotland are all the same race/ethnicity?”
No.

2) “Do you believe everyone born in Scotland considers themselves Scottish?”
No, obviously not. Many consider themselves British. They don’t accept that Scotland is, could or should ever be an independent country.

3) “Just trying to figure out how everyone born in Scotland could be classed as a blood & soil nationalist.”
Everyone born here isn’t classed that way. It’s an ideological choice to be a regressive ethnic nationalist. Only those buying in to the nativist conceit that only those born here actually qualify as “real” Scots are blood and soil nationalists.

4) “Is Scotland a multi-cultural society?”
Up to a point, yes.

Andy Ellis says:
7 June, 2022 at 6:30 pm

@Tourette’s Ruby 6.17 pm

1) “Do you believe that everyone born in Scotland are all the same race/ethnicity?”
No.

2) “Do you believe everyone born in Scotland considers themselves Scottish?”
No, obviously not. Many consider themselves British. They don’t accept that Scotland is, could or should ever be an independent country.

3) “Just trying to figure out how everyone born in Scotland could be classed as a blood & soil nationalist.”
Everyone born here isn’t classed that way. It’s an ideological choice to be a regressive ethnic nationalist. Only those buying in to the nativist conceit that only those born here actually qualify as “real” Scots are blood and soil nationalists.

4) “Is Scotland a multi-cultural society?”
Up to a point, yes.

So what’s the problem with restricting the vote to only residents born here?

@twatbynametwatbynature 5.38 pm

Surely if you and your nativist compadres were so sure of yourselves, you wouldn’t feel the need to hide behind that cloak of anonymity would you?

I mean, if you represent the silent majority, surely you’d feel empowered to tell us all who you were, to proudly own your regressive nativism and shilling for Vlad and his nice bunch of lads protecting us from nazism and militarism?

No…? Strange that. One might almost think you were too chicken shit to own your own regressive and deeply unpopular world view.

The light is an unwelcome friend to those on the darker fringes of the independence movement of course.

@Dan 6.45 pm

Wind your neck in you hypocrite. You WERE being snarky and disingenuous. I don’t believe there should be any change in the 2014 franchise. I’m firmly of the opinion that remains the mainstream view of the vast majority of the movement. Regressive nativists are free to screech in to the void all they like that I’m wrong.

I previously said I’d be open to persuasion that the introduction of a residence criteria of no more than 24 months would be acceptable. The fact you can’t remember it is hardly my fault. Hence the claim that you are being disingenuous.

I note you don’t seem to take issue with the moonhowlers constantly othering me and others, their “cunt calling”, or the reptitive accusations of being britnats, agents of the British state etc. Is that just because you’re intellectually lazy or on their side Dan? Neither is a particularly good look.

Who is the snowflake now?

Walter Mitty says:
7 June, 2022 at 6:58 pm

Who is the snowflake now?
—

You are.

Andy Ellis says:
7 June, 2022 at 6:52 pm

Good grief. Have you been on the Buckie and Meths cocktails again?

Nah! I ditched the Buckie when the SNP introduced minimum pricing.

Andy Ellis says: at 6:58 pm

“You WERE being snarky and disingenuous.”

Oh no I wasn’t!

And how the fuck can you categorically state what is in my head. YOU ARE WRONG, I’m just genuinely pissed off with your incessant attempts to tar reasonable folk and discussion in a negative light.
You are a fuckin loon ball mate. Like a dug returning tae its oan spew, you’re triggered by the smallest thing btl on a blog you said you’re leaving because it is dying and lost all relevance in the wider Indy movement of which you know and speak for.

But it begs the question, if all that is left of this place is no mark / skidmark roasters that nobody listens to, then why the fuck do you spend so much time on here. Surely your superior skillset would be of better use where your efforts have more reach.
Someone stated never argue with idiots, yet here you are…

@ Andy Ellis says:7 June, 2022 at 4:21 pm

“Wouldn’t £2 billion be better spent upgrading rail links between Scotland’s major cities and upgrading other infrastructure?”

Careful Andy!!!

I gently took CrapMan to task for his claim that Scotland has a “first world infrastructure” and he went full carpet-biting mode on me and has not yet recovered after 2 weeks.

Accept CrapMan’s assessment if you want a quiet life. Scotland has a first-world infrastructure. That £2 bill can be spent elsewhere.

@Dan 7.13 pm

The fact you think these are reasonable folk tells me everything i need to know about you. Don’t bother responding. I’m just going to ignore you in future.

“The problem with the ‘2014 IndyRef Dress Rehearsal franchise’ is that it was totally open to abuse.”

Ruby.

As will the next one be, don’t forget we are dealing with Perfidious Albion here, that has honed its nefarious activities in these quarters around the Third world for decades.

Currently the circumstances for a fair and unbiased indyref do not exist in Scotland and are unlikely to do so, that’s why UDI is the only route out of the union.

@ Vlad’s ding-a-ling 7.15 pm

“However we all know what you represent, and its nothing to do with Scottish independence.”

I’m not the snivelling anonymous online coward though am I? I’ll keep bringing it up as long as you remain behind your cosy blanket of anonymity. There are folk who know who I am. I post under my own name. I’m an Alba member in Edinburgh Central.

You’re just an anonymous online troll too feart to own their own opinions because you know they’re about as palatable as a pint of cold sick. You could be anyone: a bot farm in Omsk spouting Vlad’s latest agitprop, a britnat false flag, or yer actual fringe nativist moonhowler on the outer fringes of the independence movement with about as much traction or support as Siol nan Gaidheal.

If you’ve nothing to hide, tell us who you really are. Waht have you to lose?

*cue tumbleweed*

A UDI isn’t the right kinda chat in my opinion.

A UDI is a unilateral Declaration of Independence, but while it might sound pedantic, there are UDI’s and UDI’s.

Scotland, a Sovereign Nation with a Constitution, (yes we do have a Constitution), has the power to end the Treaty of Union unilaterally, as Craig Murray describes. Is it unilateral? Yes. Is it a Declaration of Independence? Well, yes kinda.

So why does every get up tight about a UDI?

Because some UDI’s are nothing like that. Some are half baked, sometimes a bunch of revolutionaries will have a coup in the morning and expect their UDI to secure International Recognition by the afternoon. The world doesn’t know if they’re terrorists, murderers, or mercenaries. The country they want to be recognised has no border, or worse disputed borders, no government, no recognised authority, disputed authority, no legal personality and a million consequences such as trade deals and peace treaties which are suddenly up in the air… And the new “government” has just set itself against the background where there already was a country which had a border, had a government, had recognised authority, legal personality etc…

That kind of UDI is spectacularly problematic for the International Community to deal with, because it basically destroys a status quo and replaces it with chaos.

It’s not impossible to secure International recognition, but it’s mightily difficult, will require lengthy negotiations and agreements, and probably extended court cases to settle the question of it’s legitimacy and legality.

Sometimes UDI’s are controversial for other reasons, such as Crimea, Donbas and Luhansk… Not even sure there were UDI’s, but you get the point.

Scotland has a recognised border, largely undisputed, Scottish territorial waters, Scottish land mass, separate institutions, arguably a Scottish government, a degree of autonomy, (which might actually complicate the process rather than smooth it), and has held a historically recognised Nation status and sovereignty, which has never (correctly) ceased to exist.

Scotland WILL NOT be a seceding state, breaking away from a mother country and demanding it’s share of the flesh and blood of mother country. Scotland and England will keep their stuff, and negotiate over the shared stuff. When the Union breaks, Scotland and England will part as Constitutional equals. No seceding state, no Continuer state. Equals. It could be messy, it could be a quickie divorce.

Now Rhodesia / Zimbabwe is the archetypal “bad” UDI, which had a hell of a job securing recognition, but was excellent at securing trade embargo’s and sanctions instead. The British I believe pulled strings at the UN to keep Nations on side, and new government in Zimbabwe was widely perceived as terrorist led. Apologies that I’m not an expert on Zimbabwe, but their UDI and journey to Independence was how “not” to do it.

Were Scotland to unilaterally declare the Union to be at an end, there wouldn’t be gun battles between racist white farmers and a native underclass, there wouldn’t be civil war, there would be an orderly process of negotiations and an orderly transfer of power and appropriate negotiations to resolve common interests and standing commitments.

That isn’t to say Westminster wouldn’t dispute Scotland’s Independence, but Scotland has a very strong case for Recognition, and again, as Christine Grahame so eloquently put it in 2014 in a divorce, when one party sees the marriage is over, the marriage is at an end and the detail is in the negotiations.

So when people seize upon a UDI to beat you about the head with it, that’s a Rhodesian style UDI, which has practically no relevance to Scotland ending a political treaty with England, unilaterally or otherwise.

So don’t crumple at the knees whenever a Unionist rolls their eyes and licks their lips to speak the letters U…D… I… in a Hannibal Lecter accent…

Only thing we have make sure of is that Sturgeon isn’t in charge of the negotiations. That shouldn’t be a problem. We’ll tell her it’s a Constitutional matter and she’ll be happy to wait outside in corridor, keekin’ through the keyhole, just like Brexit.

As a native Scot, roaster, zoomer, moon howler, nativist etc, blah, blah, blah … , I know that my views will attract only abuse from the brainwashed minions of the colonial services. I’m finding it increasingly difficult not to suspect that anti-nativism – aka knock the jock – is a pseudo ideology invented by zealots to discriminate and give additional voting power to prejudiced and gullible racists. That makes it easier to keep those propagandists who cause our current difficulties – unionism, Westminster, Brexit, food banks, poverty, shortages etc – in positions where they can continue lining their pockets.

This idea that Ellis has that iScotland should only permit single nationality just to punish the ‘BritNat Buts’ is bonkers.
These guys are going to be waving the Union Jack, support Rangers, playing their flute and singing ‘God Save the Kings'(Billy & Charles) no matter what.

It would seem Westminster wouldn’t want these guys having British nationality even after all their flag waving & loyalty so we are probably stuck with them.

He hasn’t given a though to foreign nationals who would want to retain their nationality & be able to pass it on to their children as well as having Scottish nationality.
Who cares about the ‘BritNat Buts’ they are not going to open businesses or make any positive contribution to Scotland.

Breeks @7.38pm.

Nicely put and very true, Scotland is a stable country that would be returning to its prior status before the union.

Anyway your comment @7.38pm will surely upset a few of the shill in here….good.

Testing

snivelling anonymous online coward

@Tourette’s Ruby 7.59 pm

Just because you think it’s bonkers doesn’t make it so. Indeed given your general level of reasoning and MO, the fact you consider it bonkers is probably a recommendation. Lots of countries don’t allow dual nationality.

Why is it unreasonable for Scotland to be one of them?

Surely it’s an advantage making people choose where their loyalties lie? I’d have absolutely no issue seeing britnats and yoons and LoL knuckle draggers opting to retain their britnat passports and citizenship.

I have given a thought to the groups you identify: they get a choice too, either Scottish citizenship or retaining their foreign citizenship and abiding by whatever residence criteria an independent Scotland elects to have for foreign nationals.

@Vlad’s ding-a-ling

You said @ 7.15 pm

“That may well be for now, until folk realise that there’s no other way out of this ghastly union.”

So you’re admitting that there’s not the necessary support for UDI or “cunning plans for indy” now (although your hero Craig Murray is saying we should do it now….). So when will be the right time?

Will there be a crisis sufficient to increase support for UDI to the necessary level before the next Holyrood elections in 2026?

Will the SNP have changed leaders and embraced this radical alternative?

Would you like to buy this bridge I own?

Andy Ellis says: 7 June, 2022 at 7:30 pm

You’re just an anonymous online troll too feart to own their own opinions because you know they’re about as palatable as a pint of cold sick. You could be anyone: a bot farm in Omsk spouting Vlad’s latest agitprop, a britnat false flag, or yer actual fringe nativist moonhowler on the outer fringes of the independence movement with about as much traction or support as Siol nan Gaidheal.

To be fair to Siol nan Gaidheal, they may have been a ragtag bunch ranging from eccentric to downright dangerous (and their silly belief that they were the Black Chapter of the Knights Templer smacked of those who never outgrew forming wee secret gangs as kids …), but I’ll always give them their due for three things, without which arguably Scottish nationalism wouldn’t have ever got this close to independence as it is now:

1. Operation Dark Harvest. No matter how the SNP and the British state try to rewrite the history of that one, that was their doing, it was an open secret in the Glasgow radical bookshops, the only ones who didn’t seem to know were the Daily Record and George Outram’s Funny Handshake Press.

2. Niall Aslen’s “The Great Obfuscation” damning autopsy on the GERS report of August 29, 2008, which went viral on the web. Aslen was a forensic accountant to trade, and his open missive showing his talents with fact after damning fact about how much of Scotland’s actual wealth was hidden by “creative accountancy” has been the blueprint for just about every serious economic study on the viability of an independent Scotland since.

3. SnG pulled the SNP and Scottish nationalism’s backsides out of the fire post 1979 into the early 80s when the party was just about finished, running countless joint socials for fundraising when local SNP branches were struggling to get enough scunnered off members to attend their own, and keeping motivation going at a time the party was a laughing stock. Their own leaflet drives as well tended to be a lot harder hitting than their political contemporaries, and you’d find neighbours or folk on the train on their way to work or uni talking to one another about it – that just didn’t happen with any other organisation in apathetic Scotland, not even CND when they were banner news thanks to Polaris and Trident.

I may not have liked too many of their members’ beliefs (though I understood why some felt as they did, particularly those from the crofting areas …), and some were downright liabilities, but I always thought credit ought to have been shown where credit was due – and it never was I’d say. If Scottish Nationalism had been left to bumbling Gordon Wilson and his ilk, it would have died a death long before what was left of the SNP were forced to readmit Alex Salmond or anyone else out of necessity.

Andy Ellis says:
7 June, 2022 at 8:22 pm

@Tourette’s Ruby 7.59 pm

I have given a thought to the groups you identify: they get a choice too, either Scottish citizenship or retaining their foreign citizenship

Just like in China

Always remember the UK is NOT a country, its a political union between countries nothing more.

link to pbs.twimg.com

What’s with all the name-calling?

How childish. Give it a rest, eh?

Republicofscotland says:

“Always remember the UK is NOT a country, it’s a political union between countries nothing more.”

Indeed, Republic of Scotland. The United Kingdom is a political construction, not a country. Scotland is a country.

Derek.

Totally agree.

I don’t trust the SNP on this legal advice. As far as the eye can see.

And I smell rotting carrots!

I eagerly await the political commentary from sources I trust like Wings on this legal advice.

I want Independence. What’s the hold up Nicola?

link to archive.ph

Way to go Alf!

I can’t believe I’m wrong here, but this potential is MASSIVE. I mean, think what the Channel Tunnel did for London. I think this has much, much greater potential, because the whole European West Coast sea board can draw benefit from Scotland’s strategic position and deep water channels which can accommodate the biggest ships afloat.

Scapa Flow, could potentially be handling a massive volume of European through trade, taking bulk containers off and on board mega Container ships, and sending smaller cargos in smaller ships to and from Europe, and easing congestion to the whole of Western Europe.

But that is just the start… There was talk about a tunnel to Orkney, £100m quoted in 2004, but that means Scottish produce mainlining EU trade routes. Screw HS2, Scotland’s primary arteries could be focussed in the North.

Still think you were told the whole story about Brexit?

Still think Scotland needs it’s priorities set by London?

WAKE UP SCOTLAND!!! Stop drifting through life in a stupor and a daze. Scotland should rightfully be beating heart at the centre of global and European trade, dedicating ourselves to clean and sustainable Scottish industries and their seamless integration with Europe.

In a decade or two, it is not inconceivable that Scotland might boast some of the biggest gantry cranes on the planet and fastest ferries on the seas. Getting to Europe might not be as fast as the Eurotunnel, but you could pick your destination.

We’ve seen what the UK plans for Scotland. A nationwide retirement village for silver haired NO voting settlers who tie up all their wealth in property and price your children out of a home, with a canny eye on Scotland’s free NHS. And that’s it.

Scotland’s ports are owned by hedge funds. There isn’t a ferry link to Europe.

THEY ARE TAKING THE PISS.

Sturgeon has time on her side eh? Just GO! Resign! Get out the bloody way and let Scotland rise. 300 years of induced coma is enough without a debilitating fixation on a feckless idiot.

Way to go Alf!

Alf on fire here… Hopefully it will come through moderation… I used an ‘s’ word which maybe landed myself in bother. Sorry Rev Stu.

@Brian 11.10 pm

Thanks for your input. I’ll give it all the consideration it merits. I give monikers to those who have been particularly abusive: if you haven’t seen the “cunt calling”, allegations of being a britnat agent and not a “real” independence supporter you obviously haven’t been paying attention, or your just as ill intentioned as they are.

Typically of course those doing it are anonymous trolls, because they don’t have the courage of their convictions to post publicly. I couldn’t give a toss if you have eyeballed Dan and or if he’s your BFF and you think he deserves a medal, I’ll judge folk by what they say and advocate for on here. If folk are promoting policies and concepts I feel are damaging I’ll call them out for it. If I think they’re harming the movement – and I believe many of the pieces of work posting BTL on here ARE doing so – I’ll call that out too.

I type this as a founder member of Alba too, Brian: I joined on the first day. This isn’t who has the lowest membership number top trumps. I’ve never claimed to know everything about posters on here, so let’s put that straw man to bed right away huh? What we learn from their anonymous rantings has invariably been enough to show that I’d have no desire to know any more about them than their rantings on here.

Ruby says:
8 June, 2022 at 8:42 am

That worked Breeks
The article was a difficult to read because of all the ads.
It worked better with 12ft Ladder fewer ads.

Yeah I noticed Archive has started plastering ads over stuff, and annoying ones which jump in front of the text.

I might need to take Archive off speed dial…

Breeks says:
8 June, 2022 at 9:02 am

Ruby says:
8 June, 2022 at 8:42 am

That worked Breeks
The article was a difficult to read because of all the ads.
It worked better with 12ft Ladder fewer ads.

Yeah I noticed Archive has started plastering ads over stuff, and annoying ones which jump in front of the text.

I might need to take Archive off speed dial…

It might depend on which newspaper you archive. Some are OK
An archived copy with ads might be better than no archived copy.

Chas says:
8 June, 2022 at 9:29 am

Seems to me that there are lots of weird and wonderful ways being proposed to enable Scotland to gain Independence.
It is unfortunate however that none of them concern convincing the populace to place an X, on the ‘Yes’ box, in a ballot paper!
Probably too much like hard work for the SNP.
Any one who is unfamiliar with ‘Wings’, visiting the site for the first time. must think ‘what a collection of oddballs populate the site’. They would be mostly correct in their assumption.

Do you consider yourself an oddball Chas?
What about Main, Ellis & Boyle are they also oddballs?

Ruby

Thanks for reading my post!
No, I do not consider myself an odd ball. Just realistic, educated and honest.
Main, Ellis and Boyle seem to share the same traits as me, but I have never met them, or probably ever will, therefore difficult to fully assess. I give them the benefit of any doubt.
You, on the other hand fit the oddball category perfectly. Maybe it is the effects of the B.S.E?

Oops sorry. Should be

I did this & it worked well.

Sorry for all typos. I touch type quickly on a laptop with sticky keys.

I should type slower and edit text before posting but hey ‘life if too short to stuff a mushroom’

Life is too short to stuff a mushroom & to read anymore of Ellis’s guff.

RIP Andy Ellis.

Walter Mitty says:
8 June, 2022 at 9:59 am

No, I do not consider myself an odd ball. Just realistic, educated and honest.
Mitty, Mitty and Mitty seem to share the same traits as me, but I have never met them, or probably ever will.

—

Try jumping through the mirror, ya crackpot.

What a sad life it must be, to exist just to be petulant.

Thanks for letting us know, Ruby.

The world has lost a petulant cunt.

Let us play.

Chas says:
8 June, 2022 at 9:59 am

Thanks for reading my post!
No, I do not consider myself an odd ball. Just realistic, educated and honest.

Online, reading so many comments, not reading so many more, I confess I’m a little like Pete Wishart in his “good guy / wank” philosophy.

I don’t see it as good guy / wank however. If you really want to know, I “see” people a bit like i-Robot type automatons. Some have a light on, (it’s green by the way, not red), and some others don’t. If your light is on, there’s a 95-100% chance I’ll read what you say. No light on, I’d guess its a 3-4% chance,…. on a good day.

It’s very rare, but not impossible, for light turned off to go back on, but there is no depth to off. No hatred, no animosity, no negativity or grudge, there is only “Off”.

Breeks 11.06

Wow-that was really deep and meaningful. Just a bit unfortunate that it makes no sense.
Best if you simply stick to your usual mince about 300 year old Treaties, Grand Scottish Assemblies, Sovereignty, Colonialism etc.
You have some converts in the Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade who will happily lap it all up!

@Chas 11.07 am

Scut has form as a deeply creepy, obsessive stalker. He’s the all mouth and trousers type. I can imagine him and his carer on a day trip to Edinburgh from Dundee I think he said he was from right enough. His contributions are up there with James Che’s, although even Scut thinks James’ contributions are unreadable. Imagine walking in to any pub him and his responsible adult were in for them to act in the same way he purports himself in here. It’d be almost worth it to see him getting chucked out.

As you say, it’s a sad end for this place that the unreasoning ranters have set up camp BTL. At least back in the day their “contributions” were somewhat diluted, but then even some folk that used to seem half reasonable seem to have been triggered by the pandemic and gone off piste into conspiracy theory cloud-cuckoo land. Perhaps that’s just what living in interesting times results in?

Meanwhile, back in the real world nobody normal thinks that way or gives their extremist positions the time of day.

‘By levying or Keeping on foot a standing army in tyme of Peace without Consent of Parliament which army did exact localitie free and dry quarters’

James VII was sacked by the Scots for many reasons, via Claim of Right Act 1689.

Scotland doesn’t need a military model as now. Scotland has consistently stood against UK aggression in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya…a defence force, yes. But they can integrated into society while waiting to actually use a weapon, rather than leave the army as know-it-all, always-looking-to-challengethe civystreetersaroundeverybush-because-they-couldnaesincetakingtheboab-eh?

Costa Rica manages and it’s in Central America….c’mon, if they can, we can.

@ Breeks at 11.06: same here. My commitment and desire is for Scotland to be itself again – its culture, languages, abilities and assets all restored under the sovereign people of Scotland. So that is what I wish to read about and assist in doing.

@Scutt 1.27pm

The fact you did presumably live here at the time doesn’t make your hot take authoritative still less definitive. I wouldn’t trust your word about how “the streets” spoke or that you represented them either.

Scots views on Iraq/Afghanistan/Libya/Syria don’t necessarily have a lot to with their views on future defence spending or whether we should be totally demilitarised as you’d like, or follow the example of our neighbours.

I see you’re still dong that other thing you do, othering folk who better you in argument and calling them names. Sassenach this time, is it? That’s a new one even by the barking standards of the moonhowling fraternity in here.

Did your carer give you the wrong meds or something?

The National

Blackfords brilliant performance during PMQs oh fk aye right.

Johnson almost gave the game away , pointing at Blackford he said he wished he would stay in position because he was the union’s greatest asset , he should have said his government’s No one asset Princess Nicola was also playing the game north of the border.

Thatcher has been quoted as saying after being asked what in her opinion was her greatest achievement of her premiership her reply apparently was Mr Tony Blair and the total destruction of the Labour Party as a opposition to the Tory party in this country.

The establishment learn from previous mistakes and adjust their plans to suit current circumstances, once the independence movement was something to really cause concern and was a real threat to the Union that was before Sturgeon was named as FM , and Johnson’s comments directed at Blackford gave the game away.

The four clowns who have set up camp on this site are just another part of the plan and their aim is to make the site unusable to people who might just have ideas how to take back control from sturgeon and her band of weirdos who have managed to find places for the Greens in government on the back of SNP votes, a totally fraudulent move but normal for sturgeon and the rest of the nodding donkeys that sit behind her in Hollywood, no it wasn’t a typo it’s all theatrical and that talking shop is full of fkn liars.

Oh almost forgot

Aye fk off Ellis the games up you and the rest of the clowns were rumbled long ago

You have a nice day now yah tosser

Republicofscotland.

Thank you for sending link.

Will go watch.

I’m not terribly rigid about what I would like to see posted on Wings. I don’t mind the odd joke, gardening tip, recipe, comments on topical issues that are not about independence.

ie football, Eurovisions song contest, jubilee, Boris etc.

I really like when links to interesting articles/videos are posted. ie the link just posted by ROS.

I dislike it when the same thing is posted 24/7 non stop for weeks on end.

ie Uk_raine war, Covid, Moonhowlers.

I don’t know what The Rev. feels about ‘moonhowlers’ but he seems to agree with me re Uk-raine war & Covid.

Hence the new words that trigger moderation & his treat that anyone fighting about Covid would result in an immediate ban.

Here y’are; another one.

link to nation.cymru