Polls Don’t Mean Prizes
If you were to poll us on which of the two signs below we preferred, we’d definitely vote for the one on the left. It’s a lot more eye-catching, it’s easier to read and the strong use of red makes it much clearer that a prohibition is in place.
But here’s the thing: we wouldn’t go to jail over the choice.
Indeed, if you asked us to even write a short email to our MP demanding one be used over the other, we probably wouldn’t. We’ve got other more important stuff to do in the five minutes it would take to find their email address, sit down and type something.
And also, we actually don’t mind ball games. Scotland, and indeed the rest of the UK, is infested with such signs, and mostly they’re just mean-spirited killjoyery. (Obviously in a minority of cases they have a valid safety purpose but in the main they’re just for the benefit of people who hate the sound of anyone younger than them being happy.)
Generally speaking the world would probably be a nicer place, there’d be far less child obesity, and Scotland would definitely have a better football team, if kids were allowed to kick a ball around in the street a lot more.
But that isn’t what the poll asked. It just asked which one was the better sign, and that question is both easy and painless to answer. It takes one second to have an opinion on it, and that’s all we’re being asked for. People mostly quite enjoy expressing their opinions about stuff, but they don’t like being given chores to do.
Which brings us, with infinite weariness, back to this garbage.
We posted our instant reaction to it last night, and having now read the entire piece in The National we want to go back and put our entire instant reaction in giant red bold capital letters with triple underlining and exclamation marks. But nonetheless, Wings readers deserve and have come to expect analysis based on the full facts, so let’s step through the entire “11-point plan” in detail.
In a worrying start, the first five points aren’t points at all.
The entirety of that passage is a extremely padded-out recap on stuff that’s already been done and which has no practical meaningful effect at all on anything. At the very best it’s ONE point – “We did some stuff in the past”.
(For the love of the wee man, how is Point 4 part of a “plan”? It says “we stopped work 10 months ago to do something else”. THAT ISN’T WHAT A PLAN IS.)
It details some past preparatory work. Now, it’s all very nice being prepared for things. But it’s a bit like building a new shelf in your house to hold all your Nobel Prizes in case you should ever win any – it’s pointless unless and until you have a realistic plan to win a Nobel Prize. Indeed, it’s a counter-productive waste of time that you should have actually been spending on doing whatever it was that you wanted to win a prize for, or alternatively on fixing the broken window in the kitchen that the wind’s howling through.
So let’s see if it gets any better from Point 6.
Now, in the absolute strictest semantic sense, points 6 and 8 ARE a “plan”, at least in so far as they identify a couple of actions to be taken in the future. But specifically, it’s a plan to do something that’s already been tried twice and failed both times, and which we know will fail again.
The UK government is managing to “sustain” its position on the subject just fine, and has been doing so for almost four years, since a Section 30 order was first requested and refused in March 2017.
Again, points 6 to 8 really just amount to a recap of what’s already been done, and a promise to do it again, but with no suggestion of what might bring about a different outcome. So we still don’t have an actual “plan” in any sense of anything we didn’t already know, and we’re already on point 9 of 11. This isn’t looking good.
That’s literally just points 5 and 6 again.
And so finally we come to the actual “plan”, and it’s just what had already been said in 13 words in last night’s strapline – we’ll hold a referendum without permission from Westminster (something, let’s remember, that Nicola Sturgeon repeatedly promised she WOULDN’T do) and dare them to stop us.
And we dealt with that last night – it’s a total non-starter. Without the permission of Westminster or a clear legal ruling that a referendum is within Holyrood’s powers, councils will refuse to co-operate and there’s not one thing the Scottish Government can do to make them. The UK government won’t need to make a legal challenge, because there’ll be nothing happening TO challenge. It’ll fall at the first hurdle.
(Martin Keatings has already pointed out that during his current court case seeking to establish that exact legal ruling, the Scottish Government’s representative – the Lord Advocate, who is a minister in Nicola Sturgeon’s cabinet – has literally spent the last two days of his life arguing the exact opposite to what the SNP are telling us now. Either he was lying to the court or the SNP are lying to you now.)
So it’s all come down to point 11. It better be an absolute belter.
Oh. “If there’s a referendum we’ll campaign in it.” Great.
So there is in fact no “11-point plan” at all. At the most generous assessment possible – and it’s a very generous one indeed – there’s a ONE-point plan, which is the same as it’s always been: beg Westminster for another Section 30 and then sulk and stamp our feet a bit when they say no.
But we told you that last night. What does it have to do with ball games?
The irredeemably gullible among the SNP’s support – the fanclub squadron of “I’M WITH NICOLA” doughnuts currently running around on social media frantically trying to convince themselves and anyone else willing to listen that the “11-point plan” isn’t just the same stinky old turd spraypainted a different colour – have an answer ready to the question “What do we actually DO when the UK says no?”
Absurdly, that answer is apparently “civil disobedience”. Nobody’s ever very clear on what it actually means, but they appear to dream of some sort of vague peaceful mass protest where everyone stops paying their taxes or something and the UK government crawls sobbing on its hands and knees begging Scotland to stop and just caves in.
But the last time there was anything CLOSE to a campaign of mass civil disobedience in Scotland was over the Poll Tax, more than 30 years ago. Public opposition to the tax was overwhelming, encompassing voters of every party except the Tories, and there were large and violent demonstrations
But even then, the highest estimate for those who refused to pay the tax was around 20%, and there is no “No Indyref Tax”. So the only possible way to lodge a protest of a similar nature would be to withhold ALL your taxes, and most people don’t have that option because their taxes are deducted from their wages at source.
So immediately your mass civil disobedience movement is down to the 15% of the adult population who are self-employed, and statistically roughly half of those will be Unionists, so really maybe 8% max – just over a third of the number who withheld their Poll Tax payments.
But – and here’s, finally, where that NO BALL GAMES sign comes in – how many of those people actually care enough to go through the incalculable, exhausting misery and struggle of being chased by HMRC for years on end and dragged to court and having their assets seized and their businesses destroyed?
(Even that’s really a moot point, because unlike with the Poll Tax there’s no possible way to credibly distinguish non-payers on political grounds from people who just aren’t paying because they don’t want to or can’t afford to, so the whole thing is completely useless as a political protest anyway.)
If you’re reading Wings Over Scotland, the chances are that you care MASSIVELY about Scottish independence, like we do. But not everyone does. A sizeable chunk of the population will pick one option or the other if you specifically ask them about it in a poll, but they’re not really all that bothered.
The constitution regularly comes way down the list of voter priorities. One poll last year, commissioned by two pro-independence former SNP figures, found that just one in seven Scots even ranked it among in their top three priorities.
So the idea of a mass uprising against the injustice of a refusal of indyref2 just isn’t a remotely realistic one. To most Scots independence is a fairly abstract proposition, whereas the Poll Tax hit people in their pockets in a direct and identifiable way. They’re not going to take to the streets with pitchforks and flaming torches just for the chance to put themselves through ANOTHER political campaign. Most of them are pretty fed up of elections and referendums after a decade packed solid with them.
(Since 2011 we’ve had three UK general elections, two Scottish general elections, two European elections, two Scottish council elections, two UK-wide referendums and a Scottish referendum that went on for three years by itself and has never really stopped since. 12 major campaigns in 10 years. Normal people are sick to death of politics.)
The 11-point plan isn’t even really a one-point plan. It’s no plan at all, because it isn’t designed to succeed. Its only true purposes are to try to placate the dumber elements of the SNP’s membership over five wasted years of total inaction on independence, and draw attention away from the unfolding disaster of the Salmond inquiries.
(The latter of those explains the extraordinary timing, whereby the “new” “plan” has been revealed one day before the SNP’s National Assembly, which was supposed to be discussing and debating indyref strategy but has now been presented with a fait accompli – the result announced before the game even kicks off.)
So we can pile up as many polls as we want. We can win over former No voters by the thousand. But none of it will count for anything unless we do something concrete to make independence happen. And folks, this ain’t it.
I got up, went back to bed again. What the hell is happening with this lot in charge.
Suckers!
Shelves are for mugs anyway.
“if kids were allowed to kick a ball around in the street a lot more.”
…from the guy who opposed the roll-out of residential 20-mph zones.
…from the guy who opposed the roll-out of residential 20-mph zones.”
A street with cars driving down it even at 20mph is clearly not one suitable for playing football in.
If I were an ordinary SNP member I would be feeling both handled and patronised rt now.
The more we ignore you, the greater we get!
Westminster would just laugh at us if they even cared enough to recognise us.
Pitiful stuff all in really..its all just fading away like someone doing well on X-Factor audition and by the end stages no one is even paying them any attention.
What exactly is the point of The National as I dont see any actual journalism there.
I didn’t even read the article in the National, that’s how bad it is getting with me. I read through you article just posted without bothering to look at the points set out in the article.
This shite is making me ill. We desperately need NS, Murrell, Ruddick out of the SNP and hopefully the bogus equality agendists will follow saving the next leader (if we get one from outside the clique that is) the job of expelling this cult.
You are in the know. Is there any chance of NS standing down?
“You are in the know. Is there any chance of NS standing down?”
Nothing is certain, but it’s still my view that the probability is she’ll be forced to resign, most likely by the Hamilton inquiry findings.
So is that it Stuart the finnish the end now never to happen?
I’ll give their eleven point plan ( in the finest Eurovision spirit) Nil Point! What kind of eejits do they take us for?
Stuart,
Nice demolition of the squadron of squirrels. However what alternative(s) do you suggest?
Kev
Sums things up perfectly.
I think the whole thing smacks of desperation. They fucked up over Brexit, in the end betting everything on a No Deal, when anyone with half a brain knew there would be a deal, even if it was shit.
Add in other pressures and this seems just to be a distraction. All talk no action.
“If you dont set your own life plan then inevitably you will fall into a life plan set by someone else. Guess what they have in store for you ? ___Not much”. Rohn.
Turning those points up to ELEVEN…Nicola Tufnel, Mike St. Hubbins, and Pete Smalls.
I’m still trying to work out Mike Russell’s role in this.
Is he with the Murrells?
“Nice demolition of the squadron of squirrels. However what alternative(s) do you suggest?”
There’s LITERALLY A LINK IN THE LAST PARAGRAPH.
“Turning those points up to ELEVEN…Nicola Tufnel, Mike St. Hubbins, and Pete Smalls.”
Even Murdo Fraser was making Spinal Tap jokes last night within minutes of the front page being revealed. Such an easy gift shot for the opposition.
Just to reiterate without my name at the end, because fearful of hammers. What is your alternative(s)? It’s right and proper that you should dismantle the latest bollocks from the Junta, but an alternative needs to emerge. What’s yours?
@Kev,
Highlighted in blue last paragraph.
Ok got it, thank you. It’s bold, that’s why they won’t go for it. We’re likely to struggle to get a mandate at this election due to the aftermath of both Inquiries. So then what happens?
I don’t expect you to be a soothsayer. Perhaps as a new leadership emerges so to will a new style and approach but by that stage it’ll be sometime before the next meaningful election. It’s a bleak outlook.
Bottom line if the SNP wants independence it will call a plebiscite on independence. The fact it won’t do that tells us everything we need to know. End of – they just want 5 more years of power on the gravy train….eat your carrot rabbits!
So we’re going to ask for a Section 30 again. That’s it? Good to know. There’s a chance that the weather might be nice on election day so I’ll just work in the garden.
(We had a No Ball Games sign in the park in the street where I grew up. It served nicely as one of the goalposts much to the amusement of the neighbours except the old bat in No. 14.)
‘Without the permission of Westminster or a clear legal ruling that a referendum is within Holyrood’s powers, councils will refuse to co-operate and there’s not one thing the Scottish Government can do to make them.’
If Holyrood passes a referendum bill without Westminster’s ‘permission’ but it receives Royal Assent absent a ‘clear legal ruling’ then the bill becomes law. That law will include statutory obligations for councils and legal penalties for not obeying them – prison and/or fines.
Ed, you clearly don’t want to discuss the 11 point ‘plan’, so why are you here?
Can you please get off your arse then Rev and help get rid of Sturgeon. I’ve been reading your blog for ages and it’s notable for you taking a back seat on all of this.
Is the only hope a leadership contest with indy strategy at the front of it?
@Rev Stu,
There are many who now accept the decline of the SNP leadership into something base and self serving. Certainly there remain many Nicola “loyalists”, unmoved or even unconcerned by events.
I have joined the ISP as a means of at least doing something.
We have a growing army but we need leadership. High profile leadership who have strategic ability. It has to be sooner rather than later. At the moment things feel un cordinated but good .
The SNP seem to have specialised in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Can I ask your opinion Stu, which I respect enormously given your history in punditry. When is it going to be too late to reverse the damage done? Is there going to be a date ,event month or year when the situation becomes irrevocable ?
SNP = Still No Plan
I read this morning’s Daily Telegraph article, the way it stands at the moment is that if the Lord Advocate agrees the release of full legal transcripts/WhatsApp messages etc, then Peter Murrell could conceivably be charged with perjury. I don’t know if I am getting ahead of myself here, but lying under oath amounts to perjury, doesn’t it?
At the end of Watergate, 30-40No US Government officials spent time in prison. There could conceivably be that number involved here too. A quick change at the top is all that conceivably works and that would have to be carried-out very, very quickly.
This is all very good news for Pete Wishart.
He’ll be able to invest in those new comfy slippers he’s been looking at, full in the knowledge they’ll get some good use.
Off topic but regarding the intelligence services and Margo McDonald’s
claims of infiltration.
My mum’s sister married an English army officer whom she met while working as a teacher on a base in Germany in the late 1960’s. He started Royal Signals, into signals intelligence etc. (four tours in NI, Falklands, Iraq 1), a Colonel when he retired.
He died in 2012 and while I was
attending his funeral I met some interesting people from a world that doesn’t exist. From an Independence perspective, the most interesting being xxxx. He was David Dinsmore’s (1990’s tartan terrorist/SNLA) handler and arranged to introduce me to David. We met at xxxx’s house in Fitzrovia, and had a few drinks with a bit of political craic.
At that time they were running websites using gay, Brazilian prostitutes for blackmail/coercion purposes. Exploiting homosexuality is an important part of the craft. There is a spiritual connection between people who have sex with one another plus it can place people in compromising positions, especially if someone is in a marriage of convenience.
I would go as far as saying that being homosexual gives someone a definite advantage if they were looking for employment in this field, in The UK at least.
They were also running the old SSG/SNLA website that used to lure people into extremism in order to damage the independence movement. (Anyone remember Andrew McIntosh/ Scottish Parliament opening, hung in cell a few days later, or a 15 year old boy from Falkirk?)
XXXX also offered me a job. What he wanted me to do was to go to Balochistan (area of Pakistan seeking independence/ home of Al Qaeda) in order to meet with their political representatives. I went along with him for a bit to see where it would lead to – buy the ticket/take the ride as Hunter Thompson said. I got as far as meeting with two Pakistani ISI officers at XXXX’s home in Fitzrovia.
I had a story, and I was quite prepared to tell the tale in a much more detailed manner than the bits I’ve put here. These people were trying to set me up in order generate “Scottish Nationalists Al Qaeda Link” headlines in the likes of News of The Screws.
I approached an editor of what I considered a “friendly” publication. He was very keen. Told me to submit it but to change my writing style so it reads more like straight journalism.
Within 36 hours, I had been incentivised
into making some big life changing decisions. By the time my fractures healed, I was an English teacher in Valencia and that editor never acknowledged any communication from me ever again.
The SNP is riddled with the influence of the security services. The only reason there was a referendum in 2014 was because they thought there was no chance we could win. There will never be another agreed referendum.
It gives me hope that people are waking up to difficulty of the task at hand. Only by acknowledging the problem, can one find a solution.
I’ve seen a number of people starting to say that they are getting angry. Good. I was very angry for a long time. Uncontrolled rage. I’m not angry. I own my feelings and emotions and I accept the scale of the task at hand.
So long as a hundred of us remain alive.
What I want to know is why is it an 11-point plan? Why not a 10-point or an 18-point plan? Is it just a random-point plan or a zero-point plan? Or no plan at all? And as Stuart says, if it is not a concrete plan then it must just be an abstract plan. Abstract as in no purpose to it except to distract.
“It’s bold, that’s why they won’t go for it. We’re likely to struggle to get a mandate at this election due to the aftermath of both Inquiries. So then what happens?”
I’ve answered that many times. If we go into this election with only Plan A, because Sturgeon is in charge, then independence is dead. Fucked. Over. Not the slightest chance for an absolute minimum of five years, but really not even that because there’s no way the movement will be sustained for five more years after such a betrayal.
Our only chance at this point is to be rid of her and conduct the election as a plebiscite. There’s no time for anything else.
The “after the pandemic” stipulation in No 7 is really what gives the game away. The same pandemic that is raging through our country in a more deadly second wave and that we are told daily at briefings is unpredictable. But now suddenly we can talk about after its over. Is there anbody in the world that could put a timeline on that and what does “over” mean and look like.
I have committed time and money to this cause as have thousands of others if Plan B using HR elections in May is not a plebiscite along lines of Craig Murray’s 4 point plan we can all forget.
If we can’t win it in 2021, forget it.
On a positive but slightly related note, I just did my tax return this week, it took 9 months to get the motivation to do it and 39 minutes to actually do. good luck on that civil disobedience idea.
I have now passed the bottle of champagne I bought in 2014 to the bairn with instructions, with any luck, if she has children, they might open it, Just as well I don’t actually like the stuff.
So Russell’s 11 point plan is shown up as just an 11 point sham after getting the Rev Stu treatment.
“if the Lord Advocate agrees the release of full legal transcripts/WhatsApp messages etc”
I have identified the flaw in your theory.
“Can you please get off your arse then Rev and help get rid of Sturgeon. I’ve been reading your blog for ages and it’s notable for you taking a back seat on all of this.”
Um… what?
If May 6th is not made into a plebiscite Election and also if Martin Keatings doesn’t win our case (and subsequent appeal) we are stuffed!
There’s just been something on the radio news about using the upcoming election as a mandate for a referendum; I wasn’t really listening so didn’t get the details. Off for a look-see…
Sorry Rev, forgot the sarcy emoticon.
Sturgeon is in trouble and is trying to deflect from her failings as leader and also her and her husband involvement in the trial and stitch up of Mr Salmond and lets not forget she been lying to the general public since she taken office about independence and the EU. The deflection is orchestrated onto the believe that a vote for the SNP is a vote to hold a legal and bending referendum which its not its designed for her to keep control of the SNP. The character of the woman is here for all to see and she isn’t fit to look after a chip shop never mind a country and we now find ourselves with the true facts that she has no intention of putting husband or party, never mind country before her own interest. Scotland has a long and awkward journey still travel but how far is our country going to need to travel before the democracy denier decides to give in and at what cost to the YES movement. If Sturgeon or Mike Russel where genuine about Indyref2 then they would be putting a hand of friendship and cooperation out to ISP in order to capsulize on biggest majority of seats for Pro-Independence parties and removing the as many unionist as possible who in my opinion have no right to be there at all. I read The article and thought nothing I’ve heard all this before, moving on.
Stuart Said:
“I’ve answered that many times. If we go into this election with only Plan A, because Sturgeon is in charge, then independence is dead. Fucked. Over. Not the slightest chance for an absolute minimum of five years, but really not even that because there’s no way the movement will be sustained for five more years after such a betrayal.
Our only chance at this point is to be rid of her and conduct the election as a plebiscite. There’s no time for anything else.”
It’s in cold storage, it’s not dead. It’s a strategic defeat, but not necessarily terminal. The current urgency is correct, but I really can’t see this playing out any other way than the FM
Having to go, that undermining an Indy vote and as a result dribbling over the line to SNP victory.
@Kev,
It will be the same cold storage as the mortuary, because you can bet your life Westminster wil! move to make it impossible to choose again.
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
23 January, 2021 at 1:42 pm
“Nice demolition of the squadron of squirrels. However what alternative(s) do you suggest?”
There’s LITERALLY A LINK IN THE LAST PARAGRAPH.
Blame my failing eyesight and non-techie ways, but I too missed the link. Maybe now is a good time to repost the essential paragraphs as a stand alone post for newcomers or to refresh memories.
Huge respect for the day by day shift you’re putting in.
Bob Mack – the rationale for Independence will remain. I can understand the urgency but not the defeatism. It’s all what IF at the moment. However the continuities remain.
@Kev,
The rationale will remain. The means will not.
@Rev – Yes…..the Lord Advocate will not agree to the further release of legal transcripts/WhatsApp messages because it could endanger the future liberty of the FM’s husband.
Soon, that will become clear to all thinking members of the Scottish proletariat who do not have half of their brain missing (I am a member, by the way….or at least I think I am)
Then new means will have to be found. Like I say I don’t accept the all or nothing aspect of the present moment and hence the defeatism.
I can’t disagree with any of this.
.
.
If the MSPs don’t say something soon they are going to lose their seats. Members are furious.
.
The wokeratti appear to be the only ones defending Nicola now. To all MSPs SPEAK UP, DEFEND OUR RIGHTS OR LOSE YOUR JOB.
Those of us unable to influence events are suffering from ‘analysis paralysis’. The outcome of our analyses is always the same – delay. We only wait. We never act because we can’t.
it looks as if those who are able to influence events have much the same problem. They never act because they won’t.
We have a goal but there’s no plan if we discount making lots of money for corrupt cringers. I don’t think yet another grovelling request for a section 30 counts as a plan. We all know what the answer will be. Something even more fatuous than ‘now is not the time’.
We’re caught in this impasse quite simply because of poor leadership. An ineffective leader accused of being up to her neck in a burach of sleaze, corruption, fraud, malice and unbelievable, unbelieved ‘explanations’, who is being supported by a group of equally incompetent, unquestioning charlatans who seem to think ‘Yes, Minister’ is their Code of Conduct.
We’re stuck with them for now but we will not achieve independence or even make progress towards it until they are replaced with credible, principled successors who have a plan. They don’t even have to make a plan – Rev Stu did one for them.
Where are the credible, principled successors?
Just out of curiosity, would SNP ran councils refuse to participate as well, in a no Westminster sanctioned indyref?
What a lot of words, Stu.
I agree with you Rev Stu on this, there’s little of substance in the plan. As you say in the last paragraph, if SNP win a majority in May’s election then that should be all that is required to declare independence and start process of re-joining the EU. The Westminster parties are never going to agree to another referendum – they know they’d lose. Despite what Pete Wishart says there is no alternative.
@Kev,
Are you aware that Westminster are in the early throes of planning,writing and proposing a new Act of Union?
You can put your mortgage on it that it will involve making a Scottish bids for Independence null and void in perpetuity.
There will be a majority at Westminster to accept. End of story. This is not a drill!!
I used to think civil disobedience could work, basically on the results of the poll tax issue, but I accept your analysis as fact based, although I still wonder what would happen if folks held the councils to task re: allowing a ref, by not paying the council tax, however as you say with around 8% of “activists” it’s not likely people would enact it.
Fare comment.
On the subject of the National article, so reminiscent of “The Vow” blatant use of media control. Timing, sensationalism etc.
The SNP truly have become just the same as WM
“Just out of curiosity, would SNP ran councils refuse to participate as well, in a no Westminster sanctioned indyref?”
There are no SNP-run councils. They’re on the ruling coalitions in a few, but their coalition partners would not countenance supporting them over a wildcat referendum.
Can’t we go down the Kosovo Serbia route to independence, a route that even the Westminster can’t deny as they helped draft it.
@Jack Collatin,
If you’ve escaped from the “kennel” you might see daylight.
Davie Oga:
!
Helluva read
how many of those people actually care enough to go through the incalculable, exhausting misery and struggle of being chased by HMRC for years on end and dragged to court and having their assets seized and their businesses destroyed?
As someone who’s job involves dealing with HMRC and people who are being pursued by them for debt, I can tell you that they won’t take years to take action. Under normal legislation they will take you to court in order to gain a Decree for sequestration for £3K of debt. They will not entertain any payment plans. They will not care whether you claim you are not paying for political reasons, moral reasons, or just because you don’t like paying. If you try to stop them by entering into a debt payment plan (in Scotland this is a Debt Arrangement Scheme, run by the Accountant in Bankruptcy under legislation from the Scottish Government) they will take every opportunity to object to it. They will even take action to gain Decree for sequestration where they are perfectly aware you have no assets to be seized
In short, you take the risk with HMRC at your peril.
Note: under current temporary legislation, in place until April 2021 but potentially longer, the debt level required for a creditor, or a group of creditors, to pursue sequestration of you in court is £10,000.
“What a lot of words, Stu.”
It’s about twice the average post, a lot longer than I like doing. But I don’t want anyone accusing me of a superficial dismissal of this piss-poor “plan”. If you want a short one, last night’s is about a third of the length of this one.
The U.N. Committee for Decolonization (C-24) is waiting to hear from Scotland. They’re doubtless puzzled that they haven’t been approached. If the SG had gone to them in 2017 after Theresa May’s rebuff then indyref2, with Westminster agreement and international observers, could well have been arranged by now. Or at least in the process of negotiation between all interested parties.
However, doing such a positive thing to gain freedom is the hallmark of real nationalists, and so of no interest to Sturgeon and pals.
It’s maybe worth pointing out Stu, that the things that matter most to people; the economy, jobs, health etc are going to be directly affected by Brexit and that screw will be tightened as the year goes on. We are heading into a period of mass unemployment and there is going to be mass discontent. The reason that Brexit has happened to Scotland; that we are ruled from Westminster, should make independence front and centre for those concerned about the well being of Scotland and their own pocket. What we have to do next, is make those arguments. There is a way through this, but the SNP need to commit to it and right now they’re not.
Professor Richard Murphy writes in the National newspaper today on independence, it was legal for Kosovo to declare independence in 2008 from Serbia without consent, precisely because there was no chance that Serbia would ever recognise Kosovo’s right to do so.
Change out Serbia for England and Kosovo for Scotland.
Can anyone, and includes you Stu, suggest any possible way we can begin to plan a road to Independence. The SNP hierarchy have totally lost the ball and are running around creating pretend rules for an imaginary game.
I despair and now think at 68 this year I won’t see Scottish Independence in my life time.
Off topic (but i think it is OK if not the first few comments).
I wrote to Severin Carrell about the last 3 words of this line in the Guardian article.
‘leak of allegations that Salmond had sexually harassed two civil servants – allegations he denies’
link to theguardian.com
I was accusatory so he was fine to block me and but look at his other comments. Nothing surprising but good to see some honesty.
‘I’m now blocking all your emails. You are wrong on a number of counts.
It was not all female jury; he was not found not guilty on all counts – he was found not proven on one and a charge was withdrawn, leaving a technical acquittal. And each of the jury verdicts were majority verdicts: we do not know how many women jurors voted which way.
The civil allegations against him as those levelled through the Scottish government internal inquiry are separate from the criminal case. It was the government investigation which was thrown out by the court; not the allegations.
Find someone else to abuse.
Severin Carrell’
Luckily the Guardian readers are sharp enough to uncode all that from 3 words, eh.
Oh, well I fell.for the ‘didn’t refresh page gaffe’ and ended up commenting two posts back (Ha! Be more alert!)
Ach, my tuppenceworth is here if anyone cares.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
That SNP “Plan” in the article today, is just PPERA lite (as set out in the Edinburgh Agreement) and amounts to “How we will implement one if we can get it” – not “how we actually get it”, nor even “how we make it stick”
The real question is; “How do you get the referendum to be binding anyway, it’s a subversion of UK representative democracy, parliamentary process and sovereignty.
A referendum in the UK is and always has been a Plan B in relation to representative democracy in Scotland and the UK as a whole. I’ve heard not a peep about how the SNP propose to make it stick” far less get it.
All we hear is ‘It will be difficult for the UK Govt to refuse a referendum and it will be difficult for the UK Govt not to be bound by it”
Yeah, difficult.
Thanks for the reply. we really need Hamilton to be honest. I have less faith in the other one given theChariman’s press releases
‘Our only chance at this point is to be rid of her and conduct the election as a plebiscite. There’s no time for anything else.’
What if Alec, Kenny, Cherry etc. publicly announced/supported that the May election is a ‘de facto peoples plebiscite’ despite the SNP wokes, could that do it for us ?
To enact the plan not only has NS to be removed but a competent leader installed and it has to be done before the election or the can will be kicked down the road another four or five years.
If Joanna Cherry became leader then its possible but if Angus Robertson got the gig then I reckon we’d be in for years more of the same old shite. Is there any polling to indicate SNP members preference for a replacement leader?
We could possibly draw some comparisons of our plight from this. We must continually highlight Westminster’s reluctance to extend the democratic process of a plebiscite to Scotland. Difficult to do when your FM doesn’t actually want Scottish independence.
link to cilj.co.uk
These are interesting and relate to self determination.
link to treaties.un.org
link to ohchr.org
link to un.org
JIC you weren’t pissed off enough…
“The document goes on to say that if it has a parliamentary majority it will introduce and pass a bill allowing a referendum to take place after the pandemic”
link to bbc.co.uk
FFS Raith just scored.
Pass the prozac!
The low priority nature of independence is a measure of how serviceable the SNP, by down playing the thing itself, has been to Unionism.
Scotland will not become a sovereign state again by playing legal footsie, by being nicely constitutional. There is no Scottish exception in this matter. This is not a game played according to Queensbury rules. The sooner the ‘patrician set’ realise that the better.
Golden boot winner Scotland has been announced.
Anybody know a player called Tavpen.?
It is still the Plan A BS however you package it. I am in the dark place again.
What is known here is not known to the majority of Scots.
It not what the people know that causes the problem it’s what they think they know.
How i’d love to see full page newspaper adverts defining the word Colony.
The McCrone report made top secret as it showed fabulous wealth for an independent Scotland
6,000 square miles of Scottish Maritime waters stolen for England the night before Holyrood opened
List how the indy ref Purda was broken and list every Vow broken.
How about reminding them that a 100% Remain vote in Scotland still sees us ripped out of the EU.
Then we have all the devolved powers being stolen from Holyrood.
The new act of the Union to enslave Scotland further.
I’d guarantee at least 90% of our population don’t know about half of this and
No one in the SNP cares to mention it.
We need to take some kind of action ourselves to fight back and take our country back!
Aberdeen fan favours red and white sign shock
This time next year Rodney, we’ll have a referendum.
“This time next year Rodney, we’ll have a referendum.”
Only difference is the Trotters actually DID become millionaires in the end.
Nicola Sturgeon never had any intention in delivering independence, just to remain in power. All what she is prepared to do is to put obstacles to independence.
This 11 points of stinking garbage, which frankly is an insult to the intelligence of those of us who voted for these lying sacs of sht in 2016 expecting a referendum, proves it.
Sturgeon’s SNP has at all practical effects, willingly or unwillingly become a tool of the British state aiming to stop our right to self determination and so are all those who are willing to go along with this disgraceful attempt to deceive yes voters.
Politically, this woman is terminally wounded so I do not think she is in any position to offer anything. This 11 points of crap is nothing but a smokescreen from the inquiry and also as Stu says, a way of cutting the National Assembly at the knees.
This bit:
“And would be enacted if an SNP Scottish Government is re-elected with a majority to do so”
Comes across as disgusting blackmailing. What are they trying to tell us with those words? Are they telling us that if another pro indy party forms government and decides to go along and enact that bill, the SNP will oppose? Is that what they are telling us?
If an SNP Scottish Government is “re-elected”. Ministers in the current cabinet will be standing down in the next election – Sturgeon herself and the Lord Advocate may, with a bit of luck be ousted too. It will not be a “re-election” of an SNP Scottish government. It will be the election of a brand new Scottish government.
It is interesting they say “majority SNP Scottish government”, not a majority of seats, which is what you would expect to hear. I have the gut feeling these deceivers are expecting to lose the election. In other words, they are lying to us. The do not have any intention to enact that bill and even less to deliver independence.
I think under these circumstances we should refuse them our vote. Either May is a plebiscite on independence or they can stick their 11 points of regurgitated garbage where the sun does not shine.
Some people are screaming for a plebicite election, the SNP are screaming for an electoral mandate. The worshippers at the Church of Nicola will allow themselves to believe these are interchangeable terms, they clearly are not. The former is action, the latter inaction.
The 11-point “plan” is a really long-winded way of saying “vote SNP 1 and 2.
I don’t think you’ve the awfulness of the plan. The SNP have no intention of actually calling the referendum.
There is no chance of SNP asking councils to hold a referendum that is not legal.
The plan is to put the bill through Holyrood, any bill that becomes law passed by the Scottish Parliament is Legal.
But to become law it must have royal assent, and the Scotland Act states that the competency of any bill can be challenged between being passed by Holyrood and royal assent. By more or less anyone
So, the bill will be challenged and they have given WM a couple of years at least to ensure the challenge will succeed.
At that point the whole strategy collapses.
Until 2025 where there will no doubt be another carrot sorry cunning plan.
The plebiscite election is our absolute only chance. A massive pro-indy vote doesn’t mean we are independent, we still have to get the UK government to the negotiating table. But we are in a much stronger position, we could declare independence and hope some one recognizes us. In which case if UK hasn’t negotiate we have no share of debt. I am not saying we should do that but we have that option.
Republicofscotland says: 2.46.
Westminster would no doubt say that they let us have a referendum in 2014 and we voted no.I think it was rigged against us, but that is probably what they would say.
Has anyone in the SNP high echelons uttered a squeak about the half million Indy Fund? No? Didn’t think so.
One way to break the leadership impass may be to follow the money? After all, Al Capone was jailed for financial irregularities.
Perhaps SNP members could start asking questions?
For a long time the FM has told us that a Plan B undermines Plan A.
Now, for no plausible reason given, she announces Plan B and thus, by her own reckoning, is undermining Plan A.
The announcement comes immediately after the Holyrood committee inquiring into the FM’s conduct has made a legal bid to receive documents withheld from them that are supposed to be damning evidence of her conduct.
If the real reason for announcing Plan B is deflection from this threat to her personal interest then she is undermining her Plan A indyref strategy for the sake of that personal interest.
kapelmeister @ 2:40
“The U.N. Committee for Decolonization (C-24)”
That’s where an SNP FM serious about independence would have sent her Constitutional Affairs Minister several years ago, instead of Downing St. To speak to folks who can help our liberation, not maintain our oppression.
The other option to bring about independence is the same as it always has been, by a majority decision of Scotland’s sovereign national representatives, as Republicofscotland says @ 2:46.
Though Scotland’s withdrawal from the UK union/Treaty alliance is arguably not UDI. The UK did not UDI from the EU; a majority of MP’s decided to withdraw from the EU Treaty alliance.
However the definition of ‘a people’ seeking self-determination would be the same as in the case of Kosovo and elsewhere, and the ‘Scottish people’ readily press all the buttons on that score.
“The 11-point “plan” is a really long-winded way of saying “vote SNP 1 and 2”
It is a way of saying “vote SNP 1 and 2 and expect nothing in return, just as we delivered in the last 5 years”
Well they can eat their 11 point plan. I am having none of it. Either May 2021 is a plebiscite election or the SNP can fvck off because they are not getting my votes.
The SNP’s official twitter makes zero mention of the National Assembly. Democracy being moribund in the party under Sturgeon, they didn’t see any need to even allude to it.
Errr . . . isn’t the facetious definition of madness (or is it stupidity?) doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome each time? Or perhaps if we ask for a S30 Order often enough we really will eventually get one – what do you think?
Its interesting to note that Kosovo’s declaration of independence in 2008, in which some citizens boycotted it DIDN’T violate International Law. Serbia thought it to be illegal but the ICJ ruled it wasn’t.
Again its a pity that we don’t have an FM with the courage to test this out in Scotland. No plebiscite required just amass all Scotland’s MP’s and MSP’s in the Holyrood chamber, put it to the vote and declare independence there and then if there’s a majority for it.
Then sit back and see what route Westminster decides to take, it would most likely act in the same way Serbia did, when Kosovo declared independence and claim that the declaration broke the UK’s constitutional laws.
However the International community on seeing the resolve of Kosovo on remaining independent managed to get the two nations around the table to talk it out, a route open to Westminster as well, needless to say Kosovo’s bold act of self-determination paid off, but again I reiterate we need an independence minded FM made of stern stuff.
Kosovo has shown it can be done, where there’s a will there’s a way.
Forget the National Assembly – Mike Russell has withdrawn the ability of ordinary grass roots SNP members to discuss and agree the way forward, by telling them what’s going to be done anyway whether they like it or not! new definition of democracy?)
John. H @3.338pm.
John.
A lot has changed since 2014, the Vow wasn’t fulfilled as promised, and we have been dragged out of Europe, to name but a few things.
“Errr . . . isn’t the facetious definition of madness (or is it stupidity?) doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome each time?”
I think you find it is neither stupidity nor madness nor they expect a different outcome. They WANT the same outcome. It is deception and abuse of our trust. They are taking the voters for idiots. They have absolutely no intention in deliver independence and they never did.
The takeover of the SNP by the British state appears to be now complete. You cannot distinguish Sturgeon’s SNP from Blair’s New Labour with regards to devolution and independence.
I did wonder in 2017 when they took the seat away from Mr Salmond (I am convinced it was a concerted act to stop him going back to Westminster) what the British state would do to stop the delivery of indyref. Now I know the answer: they put an asset in control of the SNP.
Independence is most certainly an abstract idea, but without an abstract idea there can be no concrete action. Within the present context, making the idea of independence into a concrete reality would require the type of political leadership that is totally absent within the Scottish National Party.
Russell’s 11 point plan is, therefore, nothing more than cynical, disingenuous tripe.
As for The National — well … even the Unionists have stopped hiding that.
More on Kosovo’s independence.
This is what the ICJ said of it.
“The court delivered its advisory opinion on 22 July 2010; by a vote of 10 to 4, it declared that “the declaration of independence of the 17th of February 2008 did not violate general international law because international law contains no ‘prohibition on declarations of independence’.”
I’m sure Craig Murray wrote an article advising us to go down this route, for there’s no other way to independence that Westminster will agree upon ever.
@deerhill. We have asked questions. We got the lie from the last treasurer that he had emailed everyone, not will but had.
No one I know got any emails.
It’s how HQ deal with things, ignore it & hope it goes away.
The Rev said he sent an email to the current treasurer, so we will see what transpires.
I truly despair at where we are today, with such corruption at the heart of Scot Gov, & the so called GOOD PEOPLE in the party, standing by saying & doing NOTHING.. They are the ones that could have put a stop all of this mess. Just by Speaking up, telling the truth as they saw it from within.
& the members should be withdrawing their memberships & funds to the “corruption Party” Because the members no longer count in the party under this leadership ( as has been the case & still is, as none of them were consulted on this 11 point FIASCO) best thing we can do is leave the careerists with No careers.
We need to be backing INDY Fighters ONLY, then we can root out the bad from the good politicians (IF there are any left in The SNP) And hopefully that good will come together with the good from other parties & we will have the ONE INDY party under rainbow colours, taking the Country forward to our natural position, an INDEPENDENT Nation once again.. FREE of WM Rule..Ach! Well, one can still dream at least.. as it is about all we are allowed to do in this police state nation we find ourselves living in today…
Imagine you’d paid six quid to attend the National Assembly tomorrow
My 2- point plan :
1. Send a written request now for a section 30 agreement ( on our terms ) . Make it unequivocally clear if refused the Holyrood government will resign immediately and call a plebiscitary election , on a single issue mandate for independence.
2. Declare Independence if a majority in favour .
This puts an altogether different light on SNP MPs being jeered at Westminster. When the shit hits the fan as it surely will they may find the same treatment when they return to Scotland. Time for those with some honour left to stick their head above the parapet and distance themselves from actions of the SNP ruling elite or become permanently damaged by association.
Well done you for dissecting the blah blah. I read the first 2 and lost the will.
But what jumped out was they’ve past one Holyrood referendum bill, which couldn’t have been up to much, cause then they passed another, and it can’t be much better, cause you know what, they’re going to pass a third one …. soon.
It’s not ‘neverendums’ we have to worry about it’s the ‘neveragainims’ … the Scottish Neveragainims Party.
The SNPWG, as you all know, forced a vote in the HoC on whether or not the people of Scotland are sovereign, and the vote was in our favour.
However, it is clear that Sturgeon’s gov’t do not believe this themselves and intend to push through the GRA and HCB without listening to our voices or concerns. Both of these bills remove sovereignty from the people with the female population to the largest hit. They are acts of political violence against the populace.
One way to protect our current rights is to demand a referendum on each of these bills, thus setting a precedent that any future Bill or Act that removes rights from any part of the populace requires our explicit consent. I freely admit that I am not the person to set up such a campaign as I have no relevant experiences.
Would the ISP be interested in campaigning on this? You would have much support from women’s groups and organisations that are concerned about both these policies, as well as a level of support from many individuals across our nation (regardless of political divide). It could be a way of ramping up your public profile, increasing electoral, financial and boots-on-ground support.
It would be interesting to see how Sturgeon’s gov’t would react to such a challenge to their perceived authority. They would either have to give it serious consideration, abandon their hated policies, or fight against it tooth and nail. They would have to show their true faces, and I suspect we would see snarling disregard for the opinions of the people.
If, on the other hand, they simply dismissed it with “referendums are not within the competency of Holyrood” then we would know that their Referendum Bill and all talk of an independence referendum/draft Bill are weasel words used as ongoing electoral campaigning.
I am sure Wings Over Scotland and readership could put you in contact with many of the right people.
‘4. Work on that bill and on other independence-related tasks was suspended on March 16, 2020 as a result of the need to deploy as many civil servants as possible to work on Scotland’s response to the pandemic.’
The Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill was introduced to Parliament on 23 April 2020 by the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and seems to have progressed unimpeded since then.
Presumably Humza has been doing all of the admin himself since 16 March 2020 or perhaps, some Bills are more equal than others.
The pandemic? Brexit carried on. American elections went ahead. Scotland, pandemic bound, cannot move?
Republic of Scotland says
Its interesting to note that Kosovo’s declaration of independence in 2008, in which some citizens boycotted it DIDN’T violate International Law. Serbia thought it to be illegal but the ICJ ruled it wasn’t.
I pushed this on twitter for 2 years and wS shouted down by the NS fan club
TBH it is the only way, but we need real leaders with tenacity, resolve and a true vision.
Only 3 I see near this are McNeil, Cherry and McElwy.
Incidentally on Kosovo’s independence, several politicians in its parliamentary chamber boycotted the vote on independence, a situation that would surely happen at Holyrood, but undeterred the vote went ahead as it should.
Also there were sporadic out breaks of violence in Kosovo from those who opposed the vote, again that would be something that would happen in Scotland, but that is to be expected after 300 years of propaganda filled unionism, ours will not be a velvet like divorce, the reward however of independence would surely be worth it as it was to Kosovo, I see no other route to independence, but first Sturgeon must be removed and replaced with a leader of substance.
I know Alex salmond has a lot on his plate.I and I’m fully behind him btw.I am starting to get really annoyed about his silence about this election coming up,he could at least give his opinion on the validity of how get a super indie majority and about using the election as a plebiscite. At the very least his views on the subjects might weaken up those who have put to sleep.
Incidentally, how long has that been with no answe from mr Chapmn, re the financial question.
If the speculation turns out correct that the tAsk Force will ‘employ’ its regulars (calling Angus Robertson) to staff it up and the missing 1/2 million will be cough ‘accounted’ for in that way, then mr chapman will be complicit.
The fact they has not produce any clarification in time for this weekends SNP conference is a very poor sign.
The SNP stables are going to get cleaned out one way or another, seems increasingly likely May and the voters will be the broom.
Starting to not give a 4xxxx if this shower of barstewards are voted out in may. And i never ever thought the day would come i said this. If it comes to cutting my nose off to spite my face, i’ll do it unless there’s a drastic change come the may election.
Kosovo is recognised by 97 states. Down from 117. Serbia has been campaigning to delegitimise it. Albeit some very small states most have never heard of. Most of the big ones that count do but not all eg. China, Russia, India
5 EU states including Spain, Cyprus, Greece, Romania and Slovakia still do not recognise it despite pressure from the EU.
Most of the new Asian states that broke from the USSR don’t recognise it due to ethnic struggles within these countries.
It doesn’t have a seat at the UN.
It’s got a long fight still ahead.
The rUK would most probably attempt to influence others not to recognise us and those same EU countries would support them. Spain does not want Catalonia to see this as a way out.
UDI has its own problems. Not to say that they are insurmountable as no two sets of circumstance are identical. But it has real risks and could prevent easy accession to the EU.
Alf Baird says:
23 January, 2021 at 3:48 pm
kapelmeister @ 2:40
“The U.N. Committee for Decolonization (C-24)”
That’s where an SNP FM serious about independence would have sent her Constitutional Affairs Minister several years ago, instead of Downing St. To speak to folks who can help our liberation, not maintain our oppression.
I agree.
Prior to Devolution, there was a Scottish UN Committee working behind the scenes lobbying the UN and Council of Europe.
link to electricscotland.com.
It is my firm conviction Scotland should right now be adopting a similar strategy with Independence, and in particular, making the case for Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty, and making sure the rest of the World recognises the 1707 Treaty of Union as a bilateral Treaty between sovereign entities. We should have been doing this all along, keeping up the pressure without respite.
That this isn’t already happening is a disgrace. Just imagine prior to our subjugation and Brexit that Scotland had secured a Constitutional Backstop, and issue of Scotland’s sovereignty being subjugated was a red line for the International Community which was fully versed and literate over Scotland’s Constitutional status.
Instead, Sturgeons inaction and capitulation meant Scotland’s winning hand was squandered, and Scotland was sold down the river.
First – congrats on the best political blog i have seen in these islands – absolutely compelling reading
Second – clarification of position – im English, living in London, 100% behind the right of Scots to determine their destiny and if I were Scottish I would vote yes. So I hope you don’t mind some friendly comments from the smoke…
Third – awkward truth time. Indy supporters absolutely have to ask themselves why around 40% of Scots still support being ruled by a different country. I think that progress depends on getting that figure down considerably, by argument and persuasion. One of the problems is surely that indy must mean change and short term difficulty, and the truth about this must be told so the people on board. For example the awkward question of the currency. I watched Alistair Darling’s forensic demolition of Alex Salmond’s evasion on this point in 2014, and I’m sure that must have swing a lot of votes.
Four – lessons from Catalunya. They lost because they could never get pro-independence forces much about 50%. In particular, the independence movement was identified with a specifically Catalan cultural identity, and they had much less to say to the third of Catalans who are the descendants of immigrants fleeing the poverty of Andalucia in the 1950s and 196s. The repression could not have been sustained so easily had the independence forces counted on 75%
Good luck anyway
Ian @4.32pm.
Yes Ian I 100% agree with you, it looks like there’s no other way that Scotland can become independent, a majority of Scots want to see Scotland become independent, they even want this years election to be a plebiscite, as the Rev has clearly pointed out it won’t be, nor will there be an indyref any time soon.
Westminster will never ever agree to us holding an indyref, so that leaves only one route open to us, one route that doesn’t involve Westminster at all, its bold its audacious and its our right as a sovereign people to travel down this route, but as you say and the rest of us know, albeit the Sturgeon faithful still aren’t aware yet, or they refuse to see, we need Sturgeon gone and brave new leader to take us down the road to independence via this one and only route available to us.
Why don’t we all learn French, go to the French courts and ask for Dual citizenship for every Scot who can prove they have Scottish parentage before 1906 and then reapply for EU citizenship as Scots with French citizenship?
I know it sounds a bit left field but why not? It solves a lot of problems regaining entry into the EU and a lot better than going up of the blind alley of the SNP.
Stephen P @ 4.39pm.
Yes Stephen Kosovo still has hurdles to clear in the future, in this global political world they’ll always be countries that won’t recognise newly independent countries sovereignty for their own economic and political reasons, that’s now just a fact of life.
But nonetheless Kosovo is an independent nation in the eyes of its people, as for Scotland Stephen what do you suggest? should we wait until the twelfth of never for Westminster’s consent, and by then God only knows what powers Holyrood will still have left, very little I think, If it exists at all, or should we once again return to an independent nation state pre-1707, and take our rightful place in the world, as one of Europe’s oldest nations.
This is realistically the only route to Scottish independence, if anyone has a better route I’m all eyes and ears.
For those despairing of seeing independence in their lifetime, just make sure your kids know the meaning of “Try, try, and try again.”
We will lose battles, but we will not be defeated.
I laughed at the suggestion that the UK govt might cave in to “moral justification” What f*****g morals?
Craig Murray has a 4 point plan:
1. Canvass international support.
2. Win election on Independence platform.
3. Declare independence.
4. Apply to UN for recognition.
I presume 1. is not a requirement to be successful before 2. and that 2. is a plebiscite election.
@ Rev: a question about your SNP Manifesto: you suggest that only the constituency vote be the plebiscite. Would it matter if the whole election vote was the plebiscite?
I would maybe add however, that given the uphill struggle and inertia there has been trying to raise awareness of Scotland’s Constitutional status, I would suggest that a reinvented Scottish UN Committee would be well advised to include Scotland itself as a Nation which badly needs to be educated about the Constitutional realities.
Nobody should be discussing Scottish Independence as an act of secession, or being a UDI. Pay attention! Nobody is going to recognise Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty if we can’t even recognise the Constitutional reality ourselves. We need EVERYBODY singing from the same hymnsheet, but we are a long way from that being the case.
The UK is not, and never has been our Mother country. Dissolution of the UK results in the resurrection of Scotland and England as Constitutionally sovereign EQUALS.
Dissolution of the UK would be an effective divorce or anullment of a marriage. There are always two entities within the Treaty which retain the capacity to ressurect their Independence and end the marriage unilaterally.
Scotland and England entered a Treaty. The didn’t merge into one single entity at a molecular level that was forevermore indivisible.The Union is a bilateral Treaty where both constituant components of that treaty are as separate as and robust as a husband and wife undergoing a divorce.
Sarah @5.06pm
Sarah.
Is say no to the plebiscite if its not held in May (the elections) for any future plebiscite will be boycotted by Civil servants, councils the police etc, amassing all our MSP’s and MP’s at Holyrood and voting bypasses all this, we already know a majority of Scots want independence, so a vote of yes to independence via UDI takes into account the will of the majority of the Scottish public.
PacMan says:
23 January, 2021 at 4:45 pm
Why don’t we all learn French, go to the French courts and ask for Dual citizenship for every Scot who can prove they have Scottish parentage before 1906 and then reapply for EU citizenship as Scots with French citizenship?
I know it sounds a bit left field but why not? It solves a lot of problems regaining entry into the EU and a lot better than going up of the blind alley of the SNP.
That’s not as daft as it sounds.
The original Auld Alliance granted dual citizenship in both countries and was only revoked by the French government in 1903.
“We need EVERYBODY singing from the same hymnsheet, but we are a long way from that being the case.”
Breeks.
The above is just wishful la la land thinking, they’ll be no sitting around the camp fires singing Kumbaya, Westminster has said no, and that’s the end of it, now the indy movement is fractured because some cannot take it in.
UDI and conversations with the international community is now the only way forward in my opinion.
Just caught the news there with Mike Russell saying that if the SNP are returned to government then “there can be no democratic reason” for refusing a second referendum.
Westminster will either be shaken to its foundations or just go ahead with an undemocratic one then. FFS they’re STILL cravenly asking for permission from the very folk that have the most to lose from our departure! Are these fkin yellow-bellies really the best we’ve got?
The National is effectively a Unionist paper masquerading a an Scottish Independence paper.
Just like the current SNP who are effectively a unionist devolution party as opposed to a Scottish Independence Party.
Power devolved is power retained. And that is how it works. Bought and sold for …….well we know the rest!
@ Republicofscotland: agreed this May election must be plebiscitary. [Pedantic point: our declaration isn’t UDI. We exist as a sovereign nation already – it has just got tangled up with another!]
Breeks @5:10
“Nobody is going to recognise Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty of we can’t even recognise the Constitutional reality ourselves.”
Exactly so. The SNP should have been raising awareness of all this since the EU ref result in 2016, as well as taking proper action on the international stage. Getting selected for candidacy in Sturgeon’s SNP should have required being well versed in matters of sovereignty. Instead, the opposite has been the case.
Sarah second point taken, I agree I shall rephrase it to dissolving the union.
@Republicofscotland says:
23 January, 2021 at 5:13 pm
“we already know a majority of Scots want independence,”
And what happens is a majority of Scots in May do NOT vote for the SNP / Indy parties?
Don’t go into battle thinking you’ve already won.
@Ian McCubbin 4.32pm
If we don’t get some “big hitters” coming out for the ISP or standing up another party, we’re stuck with hoping against hope that an SNP majority post #HR2021 doesn’t end up resulting in a stodgy gradualist compromise. I fear time is too short now, even if Sturgeon is politically defenestrated.
The laughable 11 Point Plan-less Plan will be laughed at by British nationalists and rejected by the international community. Gradualists know this, which is why they’ve suddenly undergone this Damascene conversion to “wildcat” referendums after years of stridently attacking anyone suggesting the very idea.
I’m particularly surprised – and not a little disappointed – at Joanna Cherry’s welcome for discussing the 11 Point indy suicide note. I’d hoped for better from her, but am beginning to think that when push comes to shove she’ll stay in the SNP and try to change it from within rather than leave and join any “fundie” alternative.
I honestly hope I’m wrong and that I’m being too pessimistic. I’d love to see the Sturgeonistas fall, and either the SNP to grow a pair and/or be reclaimed by ordinary members, or enough people leave to set up a viable alternative.
At this stage though, we have to accept that it’s looking more likely that we’re going to have 5 more years of gradualist no-marks warming their arses in Holyrood and Westminster achieving SFA.
If we can’t come up with an alternative by 2026 we probably don’t deserve to be independent: we might as well give up and just wait for the younger generation to deliver it in a few decades time.
What a sad indictment of the Scottish people.
Republicofscotland says: at 2:29 pm
“Just out of curiosity, would SNP ran councils refuse to participate as well, in a no Westminster sanctioned indyref?”
I effectively asked that question on the last thread by asking if non participation of councils would be down to them being controlled by unionist parties, but didn’t get a response.
I’ve also previously got grief btl for pointing that Indy folk not turning out to vote at council elections are doing the cause no favours because we need to control all our bases.
If Scottish local authority elections were FPTP like in England control of Scottish Councils would be very different.
The master’s tools will never dissemble the master’s hoose…
I’m at the point where I think the whole predicament Scotland finds itself in is because of the populations’ utter ignorance of the systems that create the walls that contain us.
SNP have done next to fuck all to educate the electorate on this and many other scores.
I tried informing members through the emails I sent whilst a Branch Organiser and PEO, but effectively got pushed out by the old hands that prefer to just send out superficial dumbed down pish.
IIRC the referendum bill stated it would be prefered to use the existing voting mechanisms already in place, but did elude to the possibility of utilising other systems.
Not sure whether Sturgeon is Salmond’s Brutus or Scotland’s Judas. Or both…
Bert takes to Twitter to query Stuart Campbell’s effectiveness as an indy campaigner.
Ten tweets later, Bert tweets the most complimentary conspiracy theory you will read today.
link to twitter.com
The old Labour Party man Brian Wilson was writing in The Scotsman today saying that anyone who has lied to the Fabiani Inquiry is (potentially) in for serious problems.
Dave Beveridge @5:22
Russell saying that there would be no democratic reason for indyref refusal.
Does Mike Russell think Boris Johnson is an impeccable democrat and of good character, and that he leads a party that doesn’t regard Scottish independence as anathema?
Well no, Russell can’t be that clueless. We know he isn’t.
The SNP leadership are just playing pathetic games with the people of Scotland.
Breeks says:23 January, 2021 at 5:16 pm
Thanks Breeks, coming from you that’s much appreciated.
Such a move of Scots claiming dual citizenship with France would send a strong message of an independent Scotland’s re-admittance to the EU that it isn’t as a newly independent nation admittance to the EU but as a nation with historical ties to an existing nation who is already in the EU.
In doing this, it would side-step, shall we say the anxieties, of a number of EU nations including France that Scotland’s re-admittance to the EU as an independent country. If a country like Scotland who was part of a former member wants to be admitted to the EU as a nation that has dual citizenship of a nation that is already a member and recognises in it’s entirety in it’s current form then how can that be equated to the likes of Catalonia?
If it sounds like abandoning Catalonia then untrue. An independent Scotland inside the EU would have influence to protect Catalonian’s in their struggle for self-determination.
It really is Realpolitik in the navigation of the bureaucracy of the EU.
Ultimately though, it revolves from the fact from where does the indy movement go from here. Do we try the blind alley of total independence or do we recognise that we are a small nation and need to make alliance but more importantly though compromises in order to achieve independence?
As I said in my last post, there needs to be a bit of chutzpah that despite our size, it doesn’t mean that we can’t think big. What is more bigger and bolder than wanting independence and re-admittance to one of the biggest political club in the world as dual citizens of a nation already in that club?
Just to add to my previous post, I know it sounds cynical to put on a beret, quaff French red and say oui oui but Brexit is a farce and it could turn out that the British government will end up having a more Laissez-faire approach to trade where it means trade from the EU is allowed in unhindered in order to reduce prices.
In doing that, why shouldn’t we refocus or attentions to the Auld Alliance as a road to independence. In short, while we may not be focused towards France now, given the distance, we may be more economically in the near future so why not refocus our cultural and political links as well?
Within the space of just a few days, the SNP have announced an Independence Task Person and an Indyref2 Point.
These are the sort big budget ideas you can afford, when you have over half a million quid in the kitty.
Pardon my ignorance but how do the council’s get a veto over any referendum?
Here in Oz there’s an Australian Electoral Commission that maintains the electoral roll and runs Federal Elections and each State has its own State Electoral Commission which runs State and Local Government elections. For convenience enrolling to vote or change of residence with the FEC is automatically notified to the relevant State EC to enable them to make the changes to their electoral roll. (Note: it is compulsory in Australia to enroll to vote and to vote in elections).
Thus between elections the chief role of the State EC is data processing of changes to the electoral roll electronically transmitted from the AEC, and consequently they operate with a skeleton staff. When State or local council elections are coming up they arrange for the hire of schools and church halls as polling stations and advertise for temporary staff to work as polling booth staff and returning officers. I believe civil servants are also seconded from other government departments. Elections are always held on a Saturday to enable most people to vote. This also helps in recruiting temporary staff for election day, since it doesn’t interfere with their regular jobs. Council’s have no role in elections other than renting out some facilities to the EC as polling stations.
The point is that it’s relatively easy to set up the machinery for a referendum with a cadre of civil servants and recruited temporary staff. All the SG has to do is legislate to set it up and bypass the councils altogether. And if you want to maximise voter turnout hold it on a Saturday.
Liz says:
23 January, 2021 at 4:13 pm
“@deerhill. We have asked questions. We got the lie from the last treasurer that he had emailed everyone, not will but had.
No one I know got any emails.
It’s how HQ deal with things, ignore it & hope it goes away.
The Rev said he sent an email to the current treasurer, so we will see what transpires.”
Liz, thanks for the reply. If you are getting the tin ear from the treasurer(s), go to the source. If you can obtain a printed copy of the balance sheet/ financial statement,somewhere in the preamble it will say audited by-
some firm of accountants name.
Write to these people* and say that you are unclear as to where the “ring fenced funds” for a referendum are held.
State that you are an SNP member and have donated to this fund. Can they advise?
Trust me, there is nothing an accountant hates more than having their veracity/competence questioned.
*Perhaps if you could get a good number of people to write separately, it woud be of more “weight
For those who don’t know, the giant turd pictured in the middle of the Rev’s posting is the hotel at the heart of the new St James Centre nearing completion at the east end of Edinburgh’s Princes Street.
Remarkably, its impact on the city skyline is even worse, much worse, than the old St James Centre it replaces. The view of it from George Street and across St Andrew Square is heartbreaking. James Craig, who drew up the plans for Edinburgh’s New Town, must be turning in his Greyfriars Kirkyard grave.
The view from North Bridge is equally horrific. The turd looms over Robert Adams’ ‘A’ Listed Register House and Edinburgh’s World Heritage district as if giving both the proverbial two fingers.
And this monstrosity at the heart of our capital city is brought to us courtesy of Edinburgh City Council and our very own Scottish Government, helped along by lashings of taxpayer cash.
It seems to me a perfect physical symbol of the degradation at the heart of our cicic and political life.
Perhaps, after all, we are just too stupid to do these things properly for ourselves. Or at least our civic leaders are.
Dave Beveridge@5.22pm
For anyone who has ever met Michael Russell they would soon have realised what a pompous self important individual he is.
Full of bullshit he is no committed independence merchant. More at home with the most right wing of Tories he is the man who wrote that every hospital, clinic and doctors surgery should be privatised and that citizens should be given health vouchers to allow them to buy health care.
He’s standing down as an MSP thankfully. Unfortunately there are too many other freeloading Guisers for Indy who are not standing down but rather like the brass monkey wheeshting for indy in the pursuit of another sessions pay and perks.
Scotland is currently a rogue state with a rotten and corrupt government, a corrupt police force, a corrupt prosecution service, more than suspect chief law officer.
Such behaviours do not get better of their own, they only get worse. And we would be mad to vote for more of this. So let’s vote out those who have allowed Scotland to become the rotten legal and administrative cess pit that it has become and let us vote in others who have honesty, integrity and the desire to deliver the independent Scotland that we desire.
Strathy says:
23 January, 2021 at 5:55
“Within the space of just a few days, the SNP have announced an Independence Task Person and an Indyref2 Point.”
Can’t help but suspect that the creation of new Task Persons is going to be the route to filling the SNP NEC with more of the “right type” of people.
Talking aboot ‘morals’ when it comes to Tories, in point 8! That actually made me laugh oot loud, underlining, as it does, the sniffy PC we-have-the-moral-high-ground dross this ineffectual government believe in (ramming down oor throats), versus the draconian cold-blooded reality of the butchers they are up against. Desperate, sad, and pathetic.
Beaker @5.27pm.
Beaker.
I think we can all agree that not everyone in the SNP is rotten, the likes of Angus B. MacNeil would make a formidable FM as would a few others, on the hope that Sturgeon is removed, that why I’ll give my constituency vote to the SNP and my list vote to the ISP.
Others probably feel the same, and of course you’ll have a plethora of Sturgeonistas voting for Sturgeon, hopefully she’ll be gone by May. So yes I see no reason why the SNP won’t do well come May, for one reason or another.
Well, after reading that I am left wondering why the National didn’t put a fake parchment on their front page and append pretendy signatures of the whole Scottish Cabinet.
Dan @5.31pm.
Dan.
I agree with your points that the SNP should’ve been more proactive in that department, and as you hint at the voting system in Scotland is designed to stop any party obtaining a majority.
The bigger picture though is to be focused on, removing Sturgeon and dissolving the union via our MP’s and MSP’s voting for it at Holyrood and bypassing Westminster altogether.
Ita amazing how in the space of a year unionists in online websites have gone from logthing WoS, to revelling in it!!
Rev. I’ve just read the linked article at the end of this post, The SNP Manifesto 2021. It’s a belter.
Weirdly, I can’t remember reading it back in October and I don’t miss many articles. Would it not be worth re posting it or even an updated version (you know folks often don’t press on the links) just to remind us all of what could actually be done.
Yin fae The Crucifucks fir the fucking fearties.
link to youtube.com
Holes poked in the plastic top
Air for us to breathe
Just enough light filters in
For Ernie, Eb and Steve
They say that when the top comes off
The light’s too bright to take
And what you see can frighten you
There’s been talk about a lake
And if you get to see too much
You’re lifted from the dirt
And ram right through the length of you
Some say that it hurts
So all the light pours out of you
Stay away from the light
Try to keep out of sight
The one on top died of fright
I sure hope the fish don’t bite
When the top comes off
The irony. All the time and effort they’ve spent trying to destroy Alex and they come up with what was essentially his main lever from 2014. If you say no, we’re doing it anyway so come ahead. Can’t see Boris shitting himself at the thought of that, he’ll just say “remember that time when….” as he pulls out a brown envelope from his desk drawer. Game over.
This is just typical of the SNP since Sturgeon took over. She saw the job as an opportunity to advance her own profile and causes rather than what the members wanted. They’ve spent years mitigating the effects of bad policies rather than addressing the cause, same as Labour did in devolved power.
She didn’t read the room still thinks she can placate us with this shite. Proof to me that she’s not up to the job and her personal success isn’t down to her own ability at all, she got there by hanging off Alex’s coat tail for years. What a roundabout way for a compliment!
A little bit more on Kosovo’s independence, and how Serbia reacted, the Serbian government issued arrest warrants for the Kosovo government ministers, Serbia even tried to have them removed from office, to no avail, it then complained to the (UNGA) United Nations General Assembly, there was a lot wailing and gnashing of teeth, as it will be expected of Westminster, when we eventually realise that the only way out of this union is to dissolve it at Holyrood.
The former royal family of Serbia also denounced Kosovo’s independence, something we can surely expect from Buckingham palace once Sturgeon is removed and a new bold leader has exhausted all the other deadend avenues and finally realises that dissolving the union has to be down at Holyrood.
The threats to Kosovo from Serbia will also surely be similar in nature from England to Scotland once we dissolve the union, its only to be expected, they’re losing assets and we’re retaking them back. Like Serbia England will be diminished by our exit and ergo they’ll act in a manner that’s aggressive towards us.
I don’t particularly like The Rev’s attitude as he’s a bit too full on for himself and I find some of these posts uncomfortable and sometimes excruciating to read. But the reason I keep my Medusa-like attraction to WOS: Because it’s the truth.
@Den Cairns,
Nobody ,but nobody on here feels any different than you. Believe me.
Surprised no one is picking up on this.
Leslie Evan telling us she can’t find the leak!
link to holyrood.com
@ Andy Ellis at 5.29 ref your disappointment with Joanna C’s reaction to this “plan”, I read it that she is trying diplomacy so that her chance of speaking won’t be blocked.
After all, they have tried that before.
@ Bob Mack: I dunno, I rather like the Rev’s cuddly bonhomie. 🙂
The Scottish Government a lot of controls on how much money councils have, which means it can penalise any council that refuses to engage with a referendum.
Realising their budget is going to be slashed will make councils think twice before heading that route.
Folk sometimes claim that there are still good people in the SNP and it’s not all “I’m With Nicola” Wokerati nutters.
I take it the “good people” are those who don’t frequent Twitter!
Can you get such a thing as s “Howling Roaster”?
I think I’ve spend the last 15 minutes reading their outpourings.
Oh FFS! What happened to the SNP?
@George Wood,
You realise that Westminster is proposing funding direct to councils ,cutting out Holyrood. ?
Another little detail ticked off
Prasad, Dame Humphrey Evans did a pretty good job of writing that letter. Not quite up to Nigel Hawthorne’s standards, of course, but good enough for those who choose not to read what she wrote.
If I was Nicola I’d try and muster a parliamentary majority for an immediate UDI.
Like Monday.
Might as well be hanged for a sheep than a lamb.
Shit or bust.
Then we are all subject to a Purdah period until May.
In reply to robertknight there are a lot of good people in the SNP still trying to take back control and get Indy back on track. if you judge a party or anything else only on what crops up on twitter you are either very foolish or as I suspect in your case a shit stirrer but hey ho it takes all types.
Joanna Cherry admitting in twitter that she is looking at the carefully thought out plan because she only just received it.
She is on the NEC !!!
James Kelly has released the Holyrood vote numbers from his poll. His poll by Survation is directly comparable with a survation poll January 2916
Constituency
January 2016 SNP 52%
January 2021 SNP 51%
List
January 2016 SNP 42%
January 2021 SNP 40%
Given the very poor indy strategy ,
The Salmond revelations to come.
GRA and Hate Crimes.
There’s a good chance that SNP might actually do worse than 2016
@ Dan at 5.31
I’m not clear whether you are advocating FPTP, or merely making an observation.
There used to be people on here arguing for an all-FPTP system for Holyrood, extrapolating from current voting percentages and predicting massive SNP majorities.
In vain did others point out that, had exclusively FPTP been used since 1999, the SNP would almost certainly (barring “events”) still be a minor opposition party and that using one system to your advantage, then switching to another for no better reason than to maintain/increase that advantage, has its drawbacks.
Council elections also used to be FPTP, and the SNP were mostly nowhere. Without the change to STV in 2007, Scottish councils might well be very different – they would probably still be Labour-dominated in the Central Belt and full of so-called independents (shy Tories) elsewhere!
I do, however, very much agree with you that turn-out in local elections is a disgrace. Councils probably have a more direct effect on people’s daily lives than any other level of government, and yet the elections to them attract the least interest. (Incidentally, it was even worse under FPTP, when quite a lot of seats were uncontested, something that hardly ever happens with proportional systems.)
Sky News plays an interesting part in this – early in November 2017 they were contacted (by whom?) about a story about Alex Salmond. They didn’t run with it at the time. I’m assuming this is the “killer heels” incident from 2008/9 time?
Also in early November 2017 Alex announced a potential move to take over the Scotsman newspaper in addition to his show on RT. So that would be two media fronts open to him. Plus there was the Mark McDonald situation. And of course the start of the frantic efforts to bring in this retrospective ill advised, (aye, even by Westminster) harrassment policy. Mia did a great outline of events on this.
I take it the Edinburgh airport/sky news one is the one that ended up on the charge sheet as breach of the peace? The ridiculous one that maybe kept the pot on the boil until they could rustle up more complainers? Anyway it was dropped. But now, like a drowning man clutching at any bit of flotsam they have grabbed at this nonsense again – it seems all so desperate.
However spin on and Sky News the other night revealed that 4 people had informed them of the change in transcript about the whole affair by a top aide. Someone who it seems cannot be named. Does that mean that realising that the shit is just about to hit the fan somebody has panicked and dropped one of the main players in it in a bid to distance themselves?
@Bob Mack 7.22pm
Westminster is not going to take over all the funding that Holyrood gives to the councils.
I was just making the point that the idea that Holyrood can do nothing to councils who refuse to engage in a referendum is false.
@George Wood,
Only the other day in an article on here there was a quote from an SNP Msp who basically said Westminster has the power to overule Holyrood on whatever it likes.
Given that quote what do you think Holyrood would do to prevent direct council funding from London?
I await with anticipation.
@George Wood,
Just to add that Aberdeen and Ayrshire Councils have already requested this move.
So it comes to this when I cast my vote
Vote SNP- I’ve kicked independence down the road for 5 years
Vote for someone else – I’ve prevented the SNP from fighting for independence.
Either way, no matter how I vote, we are stuffed if Nicola is still in charge.
@ Bob Mack at 8.02
Which Ayrshire council? There are 3.
@Crazycat,
North Ayrshire of course. Staunch you know.
@Bob Mack,
Assuming it is not just rhetoric from a SNP politician preaching to the converted, I think it unlikely that Westminster would do that considering it would boost support for Independence as the public like devolution.
We are going to need a referendum anyway at some point as a Plebiscitary election (PE – I fed up of trying to spell the ridiculous word) is nowhere near the status of a referendum. The same problem will arise with the councils then.
An PE which can mean multiple things to people is not the proper basis for declaring Independence. A single issue referendum is the only reasonable way to do this.
Sturgeon will resign, due to the stress of handling the COVID single handedly.
All investigations will then cease/be buried.
She’ll be lauded as a Saint and a mural of her will be installed in the debating chamber, so that all MSPs can share in her selfless grace.
Hailed as an elder stateswoman by the SNP her every utterance treated as sacred writ.
Meanwhile, the woke and true will rise with all their sins forgiven to greater power and Scotland will sink further into authoritarian statist control.
The above is my nightmare, I don’t just want her gone I want her and all those who supported her, actively or by being to afraid to speak up who had/ have power, to be exposed and removed.
———-
Re step 11 of the plan, how do the SNP plan to fund all the pro-Indy literature?
Will the funds be unwoven, by and by?
@Craig
If the SNP lose, then Nicola would surely go? Might give a chance for the SNP to regroup and win subsequently under new leadership. Fraught, but I’m flailing fir an answer
It’s not a pretty solution, but it is hard for parties to renew in government. Better if Nicola goes.
@George Wood,
I appreciate your thinking George, but time is of the essence. A plebescite on a manifesto by its own is a simple choice. It is also legal.
People have said that no country would recognise Scotland if such action was taken. Yet there are examples where countries just divided with no choices given . I refer you to the Soviet Union and the many satellites who are now Independent following decisions made in their own parlianments .
Many now members of the UN.
@ crazycat says: at 7:45 pm
“I’m not clear whether you are advocating FPTP, or merely making an observation.”
It’s mainly an observation in the context of the diverse variety of voting systems used in Scotland, and the lack of understanding of them across the wider less politically savy electorate.
In a different world the more proportionally representative systems used in Scotland for Holyrood and Local Authority elections would be a start in getting power closer to the people, if it weren’t for the huge elephant in the room that is all significant powers whilst we remain in the union reside at Westminster, which utilises FPTP.
So with the democratic deficit of The Kingdom of Scotland being outvoted by approximately 10 to 1 by The Kingdom of England that tends to hold a different political outlook, we get shafted.
But getting back to the subject of unionist controlled Councils not entertaining running what they deem as an illegal democratic event. Nobody has answered the question of whether that would be different if they were “pro-indy” SNP controlled, especially with the likes of Spear n Hunter who are so adherent to the current Party line that requires the gold standard.
From now on I’m going to refer to a Plebiscite Indy election as PIE.
SNP/Nicola loyalists can refer to it as PIE in the sky.
If they convert, it will be the first time politicians can have their fingers in the PIE without it being a bad thing.
If they don’t convert, children will run after them shouting, ‘who hate all the PIE’, I say run, but really more like hobble, given the lack of an NHS in the near future.
If ISP get their act together, it can be an oven ready PIE, and already the unionist can refer to it as half baked.
Hey ho. As long as it doesn’t have a soggy bottom.
Off topic here but you might be interested in this.
High consequence infectious diseases (HCID)
link to gov.uk
Bill Gates Admits COVID Vaccine Changes DNA
link to principia-scientific.com
Open Letter to the Swedish Prime Minister and Swedish Public Health Director
link to greenmedinfo.com
Anyone seen the seasonal flu same symptoms as covid1984? Next is covi/freedom ID pass, chinese social credit, cashless society, digital currency and surveillance. Has anyone asked themselves why the economy and business are being destroyed? Welcome to new world order the great reset. You will own nothing and you will be happy.
As LindyLoo2020 says in her early comment it is the “after the pandemic” stipulation in #7 that gives the game away. It seems to me this is a variation on the ‘post hoc ergo propter hoc’ fallacy.
The SNP will hold a referendum after the effects of Brexit are known…after the pandemic…after the economy recovers from Brexit…after the economy recovers from Brexit and the pandemic etc. etc.
They are putting the cart before the horse every time and the cart is themselves and the horse is independence. How can we expect the economy to recover for instance if we remain reliant on the cause of the problem to fix the problem? We can only fix the problem ourselves.
Bob Mack at 6.55 pm sorry but you are wrong there, not everyone on wings would agree with Den Cairns and you. I find Rev Stu’s attitude very typically Scottish, he makes me laugh even when the hammers come out (laugh in the nicest possible way, I should add before said hammers come out)and he just doesn’t suffer fools gladly. And why should he?
Stu probably did the most effective work for indy in the last indyref and beyond- the production of the WBB and the WBB were quite amazing achievements, and that whole process of publication and distribution built the enormous strength of the heart of the Yes movement which is still with us today. It gave us a focus. On top of that, his work in exposing the truth and delivering the vital questioning and analysis skills to all wingers was the very fertiliser for the Yes movement that gave us all the strength to pick ourselves back up and move forward again after that dreadful 19th september 2014.
Ok so no one would agree with every one of Stu’s views, but one thing that we can (or should be able to) see is his faultless integrity and pursuit of Truth! He isn’t perfect, no one is, – but then ‘perfection is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord’.
And I do enjoy his creative swearing.
Mia, @4.05
Correct. The british state put an asset at the head of the biggest threat to the union.
I read alot of guff in earlier posts about the british secret service not being involved in the implosion of the SNP.
Their work is all over this. They would be doing a pretty crap job of defending the realm if they didn’t try to discredit the SNP and indy politicians.
Sturgeon has been compromised in some way by the british security services. bribed most probably, and when compromised, then controlled.
People generally dont know how the brit secret service operates in these matters. Infiltration and influence is there plan .
Bribery, blackmail, threaten, and control politicians and/their loved ones to get them to do their bidding.
If the politician is compromised, they can be manipulated at any time, to do, say, act, or vote the way they are instructed.
If the politician agrees, they can be offered ‘protection, comfortable living, influence, limited power etc..
If the politician rebels, or refuses, they will be discredited, charged with offences , sexual preferences etc exposed. In other words their lives will be significantly more difficult than if they complied.
I’m not saying sturgeon is a spook who always worked for the brit state. However, her selfish ambition would have been recognised early, assessments would have been made to see if she could be ‘turned’
She will have been identified as an asset, not a threat. A threat cant be bought. Once, bought, she was controlled. Doors opened for her to get to the top of the SNP. she duely complied.
Alex Salmond was a threat to the British state. He couldn’t be bought. So they had him discredited.
I’m not saying the politicians and civil servants involved are spooks, I’m saying they are influenced. The british secret service, set the traps, stack the explosives, and light the fuse.
Maybe im wrong, but, those who are aware of the british secret services involvement
in psychological warfare in ireland will see very similar occurrences at what’s happening in the SNP.
This close to independence, majority support for independence, overwhelming support for the SNP and it’s about to implode. And some people still think the brit state had no hand in this??
This as been planned for and set up for years!
Why hasn’t Nicola Sturgeon resigned yet?
Replying to Republicofscotland
The UK government stated the following to the International court of justice at the time of Kosovo’ UDI
“As the United Kingdom stated in oral argument, international law contains no
prohibition against declarations of independence as such. Whether a declaration of independence leads to the creation of a new State by separation or secession depends
not on the fact of the declaration but on subsequent developments, notably recognition by other States. As a general matter, an act not prohibited by international law needs no authorization.”
So they would have some backtracking to do. No doubt that they would try do that though. They don’t seem to have the same regard for international law these days. Obviously they don’t have many friends now globally so I suspect that we would fare better than Kosovo but it would slow EU accession if Spain and others object. They don’t have a veto on it though.
Crucially though we are late in the day looking for international recognition. We should have been doing this since 2014
How does Margaret Ferrier feel about Nicola
Not resigning after wasting millions framing Salmond
and breaking both law and protocols?
Margaret made a stupid mistake alright but it does pale
in to insignificance by comparison.
@Fionan,
He supports Aberdeen for God sake!!!
@ Bob Mack at 8.23
Thanks – I wouldn’t have entirely put it past South Ayrshire, either. They do have a Lab/SNP “agreement”, but more councillors are Tory than from any other party (boot on the other foot from usual).
Slightly O/T
The leak to the Daily Record ( i.e. David Clegg ) Now editor of the Dundee Courier. Photographed in USA with SNP special favourites as exposed by the Rev.
Ahem!! Ms Evans can find no source of the leak????
Don’t have to search to deep.
P.S. A Cleg(g) Old Scots from the Norse. Many of the adults are bloodsuckers (Tabanidae e.g. Horsefly),
@ Dan at 8.49
Yes, I agree with your first two paragraphs.
As for the third – no idea. My own council has a minority SNP administration (no coalition, and as far as I know no less formal arrangements; they take it one vote at a time). I wouldn’t like to guess how many of them ever question the party line.
Stephen @8.58pm.
Good points Stephen, not only that, we have a huge advantage over Kosovo, because Scotland is in a union as a sovereign nation, we are not seeking our independence we’re seeking the dissolution of this union between two countries. If the UK can leave the EU I’m pretty sure Scotland can and will leave this union.
Also, I’m confident the majority of the international community when they realise our circumstances would be sympathetic towards Scotland leaving the union, but we must have conversations with them.
We must first remove Sturgeon hopefully via the inquiry, and it leads to her resignation, then replace her with someone who’ll carry out the task at hand. There’s no other way that we can dissolve this union we must recall our MP’s from Westminster when the time is right and hold a vote at Holyrood, Westminster is a dead end.
Westminster will never agree to allow a referendum on dissolving the union, we must dissolve it ourselves, and if we try and hold a referendum who knows which civil services would boycott it and the BritNat media would quickly spread the word not to vote, whereas dissolving the union at Holyrood, even if some MP’s and MSP’s refuse to participate as they did in Kosovo’s case wouldn’t stop the process.
@Mags,
The change DNA link is a social media myth. DNA and mRNA are two different things.
Sorry. For once I didn’t read all of Rev Stu’s article. It was just so dismal, more of the same. I’m sure he made a point, something like my dismal opinion.
How is independence so difficult for the Scots, old and new?
Oh, we’ve got this devolved parliament thingy – which enables us to go on a witch hunt against a perceived poitical rival. Not opposition MPs/MSPs, no, possible rivals in your own party.
In 2014 to 2016, Scotland was on the brink of modern independence. Scaredy cat stragetigal numbskul Sturgeon opted for “stopping Brexit” – not a very high horse democratic, the English voters voted for Brexit.
Ms Sturgeon should’ve pushed for Scottish independence since June 2016.
Here we are, late January 2021. The failed leader fighting for her position. Employing all the possible powers of state to protect herself.
Where is independence? The real cause? Not comfy MP or MSP seats and slippers bought on a promise, “This time, BoJo will agree and we’ll get a referendum, honest. Double honest.”
Yeah, right. The SNP and Scottish government under Ms Sturgeon has been very inept, strategigally idiotic, tactically worse. Maybe calling “Victim!” doesn’t work in the long run.
The SNP have portrayed themselves as the vehicle for independence. That’s a problem with the Scottish democracy. We need more independence parties, so that one party can’t hold voters captive.
@Breeks says:
23 January, 2021 at 5:16 pm
PacMan says:
23 January, 2021 at 4:45 pm
Why don’t we all learn French, go to the French courts and ask for Dual citizenship for every Scot who can prove they have Scottish parentage before 1906 and then reapply for EU citizenship as Scots with French citizenship?
I know it sounds a bit left field but why not? It solves a lot of problems regaining entry into the EU and a lot better than going up of the blind alley of the SNP.
That’s not as daft as it sounds.
The original Auld Alliance granted dual citizenship in both countries and was only revoked by the French government in 1903.
The downside that springs to mind is that they might want us to become a become a Departement (France Outre-Mer) – and we still wouldn’t be independent! Still, cheap red in the local Carrefour… and another language on road signs!
David Holden @7:42
David, if you read the post, you’d have deduced that my point was that none of the “good people” in the SNP appear to post on Twitter – at least none I saw during the 15 minutes I spent after followy the link posted by Joe M at 5:34.
So try RTFP before you start shooting from the hip about people being “foolish” or “shit stirrers”.
@ crazycat at 9.14pm
I’ve met a fair number of local councillors from a few political parties. Not aware of any of them who had a legal background, so I’d also question whether their views and authority on the question of the legality of “something” have any basis in reality.
We are after all talking about some folk with critical faculties that allow them to openly state a man can become a woman merely by saying so…
On dissolving the union at Holyrood once a suitable FM is in place, we’d be breaking UK laws, laws that would no longer apply to us, UK law is not immutable, just as the union isn’t immutable, the union only exists because of cooperation from both parties dissolving the union would in effect, dissolve laws between England and Scotland as I see it.
Mike Russel talks bollocks. ” enact a bill in our manifesto”? Just add it to uour manifesto. High faulting words to make it sound like the SNP are actually doing something about Independence.
High faluting.
@ Lothianlad
I was just reading through your post thinking “He’s describing exactly how the English recruited informants in Ireland during the 30 years Troubles!”
Then I got to the part where you said “those who are aware of the british secret services involvement
in psychological warfare in ireland will see very similar occurrences at what’s happening in the SNP”.
Here’s some info on “The Dirty War” in Ireland as it played out over 30 years
link to eurofree3.wordpress.com
link to eurofree3.wordpress.com
Daisy Walker says:
at 8:49 pm
“From now on I’m going to refer to a Plebiscite Indy election as PIE.
SNP/Nicola loyalists can refer to it as PIE in the sky.”
I wouldn’t use that acronym Daisy.
It’s been used already by the kiddy fiddling elites amongst us.
@Daisy Walker, 4.38pm
Mr Chapman accompanied Stewart McDonald on the visit to Ukraine so he would have been vetted by the UK’s security services. This visit was led by Neal Stewart, the SNP adviser who gave briefings at Integrity Initiative.
“The Integrity Initiative is just a small gear in a semi-covert military-intel & corporate backed op spanning Western govs, NGO’s & media. This propaganda machine was built to hype a new Cold War, ramp up military spending & undermine any politician or critic who gets in the way.“ (Max Blumenthal, December 2018). It is also against Scottish independence.
So in preparation for the National Assembly, there has been no announcement on the missing referendum fund but there has been a press release on the referendum plan which was going to be the topic for discussion at the National Assembly. “And so it goes” (Kurt Vonnegut)
“AMONGST US”?
Eh? What kind of peeps do you think Wingers are?
Poor comment…
The Brit Nats may think they can infiltrate and control.
But do they truly understand how many Scots are imbedded in their own backyard.
Playing the Northern Ireland cards, providing the mechanisms of divisions, together with all the other play book strategies to undermine democratic expression wasn’t exactly a rip roaring success in Northern Ireland. Good fun though for the military. Rip roaring fun. And they didn’t win either.
Scotland may be England’s last colony but it’s right on England’s doorstep. So watch well Brother Brit. The determination for Scottish independence hasn’t gone away and you will always need to be alert to that.
@LothianLad @ 8.54pm
I agree it’s British secret service. I think it’s psych-ops they have their operatives in the party, they get the confidence of the main players and whisper in their ears.
Sturgeon is insecure and narcissistic. I remember in a GE17 debate Kezia said that NS Used to be Liked by most voters whether they were indy or not, but now people really disliked her. NS was furious and reacted and made a rare mistake.
So the operative uses her insecurity and narcissism to poison her against Alex S. Telling her Alex says you blew the election, Alex doesn’t think you are up to the job, he is thinking SNP need new leadership, he’ll probably back Joanna Cherry.
From there it’s easy. Tell her about the Ms H false allegation
Use her desire to be totally woke – progressive, to persuade her into the whole Salmond smear. Be hands of but make sure to stear HR to the most disasterous route.
It will be someone non threatening who has her confidence
Poor choice of words maybe.
You know what i meant.
Don’t be a knob all your life.
In 7 years, that’s the first time I’ve been referred to as a “knob” on WOS.
Have I met you up a dark closie in Coatbridge? How else would you know of my physical prowess?
@fionan, 8.54
Well said
and the Poll Tax revolt had an inspiring leader in Tommy Sheridan. The SNP apparatchiks(far from leaders)tried to fit up our our only inspiring figure in an affront to what Scottish independence is all about…
-Truth For Dummies-
You make a number of excellent points.
First, the SNP’s polling position is not as strong as people would have you believe. 51% on the constituency means they’ll get bugger all on the list, especially with 42% of votes. So they’ll have to win almost every constituency seat to get a majority.
I think this is improbable. Many SNP supporters will be complacent whereas unionists will be motivated. Moreover, the SNP always under-perform their polling. The wildcard is voters who don’t actually care much about independence and are going to vote on other issues. Big Ideological Causes might excite us but it’s pedestrian stuff like covid business grants that actually decide elections. Look at what happened to Theresa May when she said she’d get people to sell their house to pay for care. Her poll support collapsed. I am convinced this will be repeated here.
As regards Sturgeon being an MI5 plant, it would be naive to think that the security services, sworn to defend Queen and Country, have not infiltrated the largest threat to the same. I too think that Sturgeon is an egomaniac who wants to be loved, hence the selfies, the “I’m With Nicola” campaigns, and yes, the daily press conferences. People like that are very easy to manipulate. Their narcissism is often rooted in insecurity. So for someone- **gosh, I wonder who that might be**- to drop poison in this insecure, egotistical person about her charismatic predecessor who against all odds nearly secured independence, would be fairly easy. The British security services are the best in the world at this.
Thanks Ben, Madigan. Interesting stuff.
Truth fir dummies. Yep its probibal that it happened as you describe.
Let’s not fall out Brian.
Enough division going on, especially over pronouns
“Us” meant Scotland/UK.
Defo
Btw. We met. Outside PQ.
Dornan is being slaughtered on twitter. He criticised Angus Mc Neil for ridiculing the 11 point plan.
I dk not think he was expecting the number of replies he got in return. I think more and more people are realising the truth.
Yes we could go to the UN with our colonial claim.
Yes we could force the constitution through the UK courts.
Yes we could force the S30 – one ask or go our own way.
Yes we could hold a plebicite HR vote.
Yes the few allies like J cherry could stand up and say
NO MORE
There are nine ways to skin a cat.
Many roads lead to Rome.
…….. etc. etc.
All that and more we could be doing/have done.
But we have an SNP/SG (with majorities and umpteen mandates) that refuses point blank to simply do something.
Nothing.
Open goals galore.
The Banana Kingdom of Vichy Scotland.
Hi Hugh Jarse.
I’m happy to accept that we misunderstood each other’s comments.
Sometimes I can be a tad pedantic…
It’s a Dundee PE.
“The original Auld Alliance granted dual citizenship in both countries and was only revoked by the French government in 1903.
The downside that springs to mind is that they might want us to become a become a Departement (France Outre-Mer) – and we still wouldn’t be independent! Still, cheap red in the local Carrefour… and another language on road signs!”
——————–
Pack your bags and nip over to Aubigny sur Nere for a couple of weeks and maybe they’ll help with a quickie citizenship..!
link to connexionfrance.com
link to scotiana.com
Fae Wallace’s.
Lothian @ 8.54
Nailed it in one!
This has been planned for a long time and the fishermen are slowly reeling in their catch.
They may get a salmon and a sturgeon and a few small fry as well but they know their job inside out and there are no holes in their net.
Hi Daisy Walker at 12:05 am.
You typed,
“Fae Wallace’s.”
Would that be a peh or a bridie?
I was taught this by my uncle when I was around 6.
?Big, fat, muckle bridie.?Sittin’ there, yi look right tidy.
?Bough’ oot o’ Davey Wahlusses,?
Fit tae be eaten beh keengs in palaces.
?No half sae dear as yon caviar,?
Eaten wie a pint, in onny bar.?
©Uncle Jim, 1958.?8=)
I may be getting ‘saft in the heed’ but given where we are we the options seem to be:
1) let her get on with her plan and her and her man if she fails and move on with a new leader
2) she resigns and we need a new leader before the election
3) she loses a vote of confidence and I guess we have a new election now with no time for a new leader
I have a few friend of varying orange and police backgrounds and the whisper is there was an incident which may have caused her to be compromised.
Option 3) is the least attractive
It looks like the conservatives are holding their fire, waiting for enough evidence for a vote of confidence close to the election, which would suit them best
In any case after indy we have to push for investigation and if necessary punishment of the conspirators. They have placed real complainants in a terrible position.
If she has been compromised she must realise they will not protect her indefinitely.
I wonder if she could pull some sort of sickie
WordPress has a habit of sticking in “?” when it cannot compute standard English typing.
@Daisy @Brian
Is it no a peh, a birdie ,an an unyin yin anaw.
@Bob Mack says:
23 January, 2021 at 11:13 pm
“Dornan is being slaughtered on twitter. He criticised Angus Mc Neil for ridiculing the 11 point plan.”
Yeah, and there are a lot of retweets of the exchange.
Glad to see that the SNP is a shining example of unity and discipline.
Fuck’s sake it’s Westminster vs Holyrood. Who needs the Tories when the SNP are in self destruct mode.
PEH it is… Plebiscite Election at Holyrood.
@ shutg, re they won’t protect her indefinitely.
Sadly, they probably will look at Tony Blair. Not that they will want to, but they have to be seen to reward those who have served. Think Kevin, or Jim Murphy – obviously they were not the chosen few and so never got the HOL, that was for the Darlings of their movement, not the oiks. Never the less, they did get rewarded with positions not avaialble to regular folks.
Pack your bags and nip over to Aubigny sur Nere for a couple of weeks and maybe they’ll help with a quickie citizenship..!
I have relatives near Bordeaux, various friends all over the place (mostly in Brittany and the north), and a girlfriend near Saint Etienne.
I remain an optimist!
https://plebiscite.scot
sign the petition at
link to change.org
https://plebiscite.scot
oops sorry double post
Effijy says:
23 January, 2021 at 3:23 pm
Quote
“How about reminding them that a 100% Remain vote in Scotland still sees us ripped out of the EU.”
Quite misleading wording there.
Still that’s your style.
Once again, can somebody enlighten me as to how the councils get a say in the holding of a referendum? In any case, is it Holyrood or Westminster that has jurisdiction over the councils?
I see a lot of people advocating resigning your SNP membership and joining the ISP. Surely this is a last resort and a better option would be to stay and fight to retake the SNP. There must be a lot of frustration in the branches and among the membership at large about the way they’re being ignored and gaslighted by NS & Co.
Why not organise a revolt by the membership? Tell the sitting members that unless they declare publically before the election that they will vote against the GRA and Hate Crimes bills then the members will actively campaign and vote against them. Put the fear of God into them. Is there time to stop the Wokerati from becoming SNP candidates or has the previous NEC nobbled that? For that matter can a sitting MSP be challenged for preselection? Nicola Sturgeon and Humza Youssef for instance?
I think this extract from the paywalled Times ‘Union in Crisis’ article is genuine, though it reads like a spoof… It’s hilariously misguided.
link to twitter.com
Marr will eviscerate Sturgeon in the morning.
However if not her who? who will lead us?
Remember Moses never got to see the promised land .
Nobody ever voted for a rabble , unite the tribes.
So show the lies of the Unionists again.
And as the lies are exposed, everyone tends to get angry with the people pointing out the lies,
rather than those who told them the lies in the first place.
Time will expose the liars .
.
Stuart,
As always excellent forensic destruction of the Sturgeonite pish.
Please can we do more?
Stuart, you had to suffer two years of intercinine warfare below the line here on Wings as the Sturgeonite McWokeists defended their leader. The Scottish version of Donald Trump in drag.
Now 99% of Sturgeonite McWokeist craptalkers are gone from this site.
The majority of us here GET IT. We understand the current SNP leadership have got more plants than Kew Gardens and more sleepers than Snow White and the double O sevens!
But rather than just echo in our BTL chamber, surely we can do more? If I understand the current position, there’s will be a binary outcome…
A). An Independent List Party will break through, ideally with some big names leading. They will get sufficient MSPs elected to Holyrood in May 2021 and hold the SNP’s feet to the fire to force a legal ruling to get IndyRef2.
B). Or they won’t.
The SNP look like winning sufficient MSPs to form a minority government in 3 months. That gets us 4 more years of Groundhog Day. Worse, Humza Orwell’s 1984 Act gets this site banned and Craig Murray banned etc. with all the “troublesome” websites banned, that means GAME OVER FOR INDY FOREVER.
WHEN the SNP win in May, it will be Sturgeon, or if she is given her jotters/falls on one of the stilettos she removed from Alex Salmond’s back, we get John Swinney. He then sells IndyRef2 for 30 pieces of silver to top up Pension Petes pension etc. Every SNP MP and MSP selfishly ingathers a quarter of a million pounds each in salaries whilst selling the gullible Sturgeonite McTrumpers down the river.
John Swinney keeps his leadership going with inspirational speeches on how to watch paint dry. Scotland as a whole enters national narcolepsy induced by Swinney droning on.
Result? We are all fucked for another 4 years, and that is the BEST result. The worst is NEVER EVER HAVING INDYREF2. That my friends is something nobody seems to realise. That is their penultimate plan.
Stu., this is a big ask as you already had the Wings Wars BTL with Sturgeonite McWokeist loyalists flouncing off of here in a huff to enjoy Spock Goes Plop and Wee Ginger Dogshit.
By “doing more” I would be game-on to send over hundreds of pounds in donations to print and publish…
WEE BLUE BOOK OF TRUTH
Strapline…
How Nicola Sold IndyRef2 For £6 Million U.K. Westminster Short Money.
& Nicola Gets All The Perks of Being First Minister For 15 Years.
Stuart, is it true you wrote the original Wee Blue Book in a long weekend?
Is it also true that the Wee Blue Book got us from 39% YES at IndyRef1 in 2014 to the actual 45% YES, such was the power of your words and the impact of Wingers joining the crowdfunding to print a million copies?
Surely we here and now on Wings can do SOMETHING?
Surely the time to do this is now?
Maybe every take a straw poll of your Wingers on this?
I am game-on to fundraise. I bet you many others here are too?
Stu., if you say yes to this idea, as well as an intial donation to support a print run of WBBOT, every time Pension Pete mentions Wings on his Twitter page, I will donate a further £25. Seems an elegant solution to the Honourable Member For Perth & Pete’s Slippers.
Buddy, surely you are BEST qualified to write the Wee Blue Book of Truth
By writing something we can send out to a say 250,000 households in Scotland and have a PDF version available on this website, we will start to get people in the SNP to realise they are being stitched up like a kipper. That they do have an alternative to Nicola’s fake promises.
burn the bastards down, ive been a patriot since i read nigiel trannters the wallace in 77, fuck the pocket stuffers,cowards, and labourites that infest S.N.P. give me a spartan party of patriots, like the origionals
The SNP as someone mentioned earlier, will Not achieve 50% plus in the Holyrood election. Even though it is attainable, they will not reach that self inflicted plan.
Gaining 50%plus in any election in a western democracy is a very high bar to jump, but the SNP have nearly done it on several occasions.
With 20 opinion polls reporting majority support for Independence, we have just started to see the small percentage drops in support for independence and the supposedly pro independence SNP. That’s before the shit hits the fan.
The coming election where the SNP do not reach the 50% plus position means they do not have to try and implement their 11 point plan.
It’s there in black and white, as Stu rightly points out, their plan is a red herring for the sturgeon loyalists and careerist politicians.
They can then blame the electorate for not giving them a mandate and independence is kicked down the road again.
The coming shit storm will stop SNP support. This means plan not implemented.
Strategy comes straight fro. The Russell, pishart, Murrell tactical hand book.
Again, Scotland pays the price!
-Lynne-
I read that and thought the same. I mean, we come on here to berate Sturgeon etc for their mendacity and ineptitude but that’s because it verges on sadistic to mock the British government. Who are these people? Have any of them ever been to Scotland? They’re unbelievable.
-Lothianlad-
You are quite right.
Just looking at that ludicrous photo of NS allegedly ” working on the final draft of S30 order ” , everything about is so obviously staged and screams ” BOGUS ” .
She looks , despite the formal dress ( who relaxs at home on their sofa dressed like that ? ) like she’s doing the Sun crossword and waiting for the butler Mr Murrell to ” pop his head round the door ” and ask milady if she’d like a nice cup of freshly slaughtered lamb’s blood .
It’s one of the many disappointing things about this SNP Management …..how avidly they took on all the insultingly stupid image cultivation tropes any even half-sussed person can see through in an instant .
For me the alarm bells started ringing with the cringe-inducing helicopter with NICOLA emblazoned across it , and things have only deteriorated since then
An object lesson in the pitfalls of placing too much ( in the current SNP’s case , everything ) on a single ” personality ”
When the facade starts to crack all that’s left is a hollow shell , fit only to be crushed and cast in the bin
-Robert Hughes-
If I’m not mistaken the picture is a few years old and it was explained at the time that it was a deliberate copy of a photo of Margaret Thatcher in the same pose, designed to show Sturgeon as a “strong female leader”. Apparently Sturgeon was motivated to enter politics by hatred of Thatcher’s policies so that’s a bit weird. It’s almost like she’s really motivated by power and attention rather than any deep-seated convictions.
It is indeed a sobering thought that vote Nicola and Yousaf and you are probably voting for closure of the Wings website.
Vote Ruth Davidson and you will not get the closure of the Wings website — and, as a bonus, you might get some unionist administration so awful that it increases the Yes vote. Because I have noticed that Sturgeon has not moved the polls one inch; Boris Johnson has (along with a lot of misunderstanding over regional differences in Covid territory).
I do wish the other (i.e. real) pro-indy parties would stand more constituency candidates. That is why a stronger grassroots Yes movement is needed, as it could hold an appeal for funds to pay the deposits of some of these parties. Dilute the yes vote? But there is nowhere for the Yes vote to go. No political party represented in Holyrood has independence as a priority.
Wee Monkey,
Can you qualify what is misleading?
If all the votes cast in Scotland were for Remain
the English votes for Brexit still gave them the majority.
We would still be ripped out of Europe with a 100% Remain vote for Scotland.
We have no democracy here!
For all the Bills passed in Westminster, the Scottish based MPs influence the outcome in 0.6
Occasions. Roughly 1 Bill in every 200 concluded.
Red Indians got beads and fire water for their resources from the English Traders of 1800’s
They got a better deal than Scotland with a vote so diluted it barely exists.
Marco Biagi is the “big name”???? Really??
A Person – yes , it appears to be from 2017 , though I never seen it at the time .
Indeed . More ambivalent/contradictory signalling , or more likely , confused
SNP shout start shouting about Covid in the lead up to the election.
They should have been holding the disastrous Tories to account for every disaster and death.
They ignored the Cygnus exercise that showed clearly we could cope with an Epidemic.
They chased away many EU doctors and Nurses with fees of £1,200.
They stopped training subsidies for nurses and wonder why they have shortages
The NHS pay cap seen Nurses with a 15% pay cut due to inflation
They didn’t head the warnings from Italy and Spain.
They allowed 10,000 Spanish Football Fans in to Liverpool while Covid raged among them.
They allowed 250,000 to congregate at the Cheltenham Race Festival.
They didn’t have the right quantity or type of PPE kit as emergency stock.
They failed to distribute the Kit they had.
They couldn’t find new PPE stocks when it ran out.
They killed medical staff who caught Covid when working without PPE Kit
They cancelled ventilator orders from G Tech that were ready to go and give it to Tory Dyson
They ignored offers of PPE kit from the EU
They ignored offers from many U.K. manufacturers who could diversify to produce PPE kit.
They did Lockdown too late twice
They gave no support to the recently self employed
They told us not to use masks and then you must use masks
Boris completely babbled contradictions that were guidelines
They instructed English PPE manufacturers not to sell to Scotland
They promised 100,000 Covid tests per day so posted 40,000 to bluff their figures.
The school kids don’t transfer Covid and then they do.
The vaccine protects 90% then 80% and now Israel says only 35%.
You need a second jab within 3 weeks and as they can’t do that, it will be 12 weeks.
Will we add Cummings Eye Test Lies in to the story of Tory Lies, deceit and incompetence?
£10 Billion worth of emergency none tender contracts given to Tory supporters.
Now do you want this English Tory Party headed up by Boris who has told you he hates Scots to
Continue ruling over your country and your children’s future?
A person above…
Sturgeon may well hate thatcher but she also hates scottish nationalists like me ( and Alex Salmond).
Without change the SNP as many commentators are saying is the guaranteed way to ensure Westminster rule.
These last years the SNP have delivered nothing. Not on Europe from which we were dragged out of against our will and not on independence. Nor have they delivered any policies that I can think of save GRA, the Hate Crime Bill and the illegal Named Person Act.
What however they were good at was pursuing political opponents in the independence movement through persecution by a rotten Police Scotland,,rotten COPFS and the other mechanisms of state. Truly the SNP are the anti Independence Party.
But having schemed, having taken the party down a cul de sac, a new party for the list together with either independents or selected other could deliver the change we need, keeping an independence majority whilst at the same time taking out the dross SNP candidates. That way, we could have our independence majority but less the SNP dross who have so wilfully abandoned independence. And for the sleeping members happily supping their pay and perks, they had better start dusting down job applications.
The SNP were going to hold the unionists feet to the fire. Well now we will hold their feet to the fire.
Effijy, 100% correct!
Sturgeon and the SNP should have been on the attack over covid, the EU referendum and all the things you lied.
The hush for independence strategy is very revealing and plays a dangerous game for Scotlands future.
Sturgeon needs to go and angus McNeil put in charge
Oh and one further comment this morning, how many readers looked at the 2017 set piece posing picture of Nicola Sturgeon sitting on a couch, dressed to the nines, allegedly putting the finishing touches to a draft to Theresa May.
Absolutely reeks of total and utter spin, which of course it is.
Well the image of Sturgeon is now in tatters. Not just tatters, but toxic, electorally toxic and that is why the SNP will not take a constituency majority – far from it.
I find people’s need for “big hitters” to emulate rather nauseating. NS at the Hydro was the classic example of this. Can’t we just get independence as ordinary folk?
Nicola on Marr this morning,
wonder what topics Marr chooses.
Congratulations to House Boy Glenn Campbell
For services against Scotland he has landed a job
on the Marr Show.
Who says crime doesn’t pay?
@Susan XX
Who do you see leading an alternative party then? I’m no fan of the current SNP leadership and its cult of personality, but there’s no denying surely that charismatic capable leaders do help. As polling shows – I think it was one of Stu’s in fact – the ISP would make a huge impact if Salmond was leading them. Imagine the impact the ISP (or indeed any other “new” party) could have made if it had Salmond, Cherry, MacAskill, MacNeil and others on board, putting the case forward for more radical action, plebiscitary elections, holding the SNP’s feet to the fire.
Of course the support and efforts of ordinary folk are important, but yu still need leaders and organisers. Also worth bearing in mind that its the ordinary members and supporters of the SNP who have allowed gender extremists and gradualists to render the party unfit to lead the movement, every bit as much as failures of leadership.
Setting aside disdain for point 7, point 6 makes sense if the indyref2 date is fixed in a manner that allows the pro Europeans to retain credibility – ie no later than, say, July if a later date cannot be agreed in advance. 🙂
susanXX says:
24 January, 2021 at 9:13 am
“I find people’s need for “big hitters” to emulate rather nauseating. NS at the Hydro was the classic example of this. Can’t we just get independence as ordinary folk?”
I agree, not into “celebrity culture” – but they promised a “big hitter” and we got what appears to be cronyism. Someone who couldn’t commit to the National Secretary Post because he needed to look for work suddenly becomes a “strategist” and bags a job with the SNP. I take it this post must be a paid one?
Soooo depressed. I thought I’d watch some live sport as a distraction and tuned into the Australian Big Bash cricket. The Sydney Sixers are playing. On their right shoulder is a flash that reads “What’s Your Plan B?” Hope they’re not expecting an answer.
Biagio couldn’t get selected as a MSP. I’m not really seeing his strategic genius here.
Who appointed him?
Where is the cash to pay him coming from?
He made a fuss about all the funds raised by Angus Robertson for his selection contest.
He pulled out of standing as the leadership candidate for national Secretary saying he needed to get a paid job.
And now they’ve given him a paid job.
They being Murrell and Sturgen
Maybe Baigio knows where bodies are buried.
Go Glenn on the Marr Show!
He just advised us that Scotland is 1 month behind
England on Rolling out 7 days a week vaccinations?
So did anyone ever hear of England doing 7 day week
Vaccinations before Xmas.
BBC – Bastards Bullshit Corruption.
I’m sorry Andy Ellis I don’t know the answer to that.
The damage sturgeon has done to the Indy cause, is immense. Far from being the leader that helped Scotland regain its freedom, she is no more than a very discredited administrator for the brit government.
She is a pawn who’s legacy will be akin to james mentieth the man who betrayed William Wallace.
It could have been so different for her if she wasnt so drunk on selfish ambition.
The unionist war machine has been organising covertly for years for the end game battle over independence.
Civil service buildings and staff to take over from holyrood, a brit nat press and media gearing up to explode the corruption in the Scottish government, and a prize asset at the pinicle of the SNP SG.
The Hush for indy brigade who casually took all the support for granted and lined their pockets in the bargain have dived with Scotlands future.
Is there no other MPs, MSPs who are prepared to come out and fight for independence???
The times we are living in are the times we have been closest to independence, yet it could all be squandered before our eyes.
We all laughed when george robertson said devolution would kill independence. I fear who may have the last laugh thanks to the careerists.
It may be dawning on sturgeon that those in the brit government who offered her power and protection In return for her subservience and selling Scotland out, may soon hang her out to dry !!
First three paragraphs of Mike Russell’s article in Sunday National pretty brutal take down of Nicola Sturgeon. He doesn’t mention her by name but he is obviously talking about her.
Effijy
Careful you don’t have a heart attack.
I just watched Glenn Campbell and he gave a very factual, non political account of the state of CoviD vaccination roll out in Scotland including the fact that we are concentrating first on care homes.
He also summarised the situation between Sturgeon and Salmond in a very lucid manner.
What do you object to ?
When you included England’s excess Civid Death Numbers
they alone now have over 100,000 Covid Deaths.
Does anyone else think this would make the headlines in every single news media outlet?
Heaven forbid but if Scotland’s Covid death tally reached a tenth of that, 10,000,
do you think it might be reported somewhere?
Sick to death living under the network of Westminster corruption suppressing my country!
Effijy 8.46am. “Now you want this english tory party headed up by boris who has told you he hates Scots to continue ruling over your country and your childrens future”.
Yes, it seems like half the uncle jocks in Scotland with the help of their collaborators are happy with that. And when i ask ‘proud scots’ what they think about all the hatred and bile that are spouted about them on public forums, not one of them can or has ever given me an answer.
Andy @ 9.22
It is indeed a vexed subject
Would there have been a Russian Revolution with Lenin , Civil Rights advance without MLK , end of apartheid without Mandela etc ?
Maybe true leaders emerge naturally from within any given movement , after having displayed genuine commitment and willingness to sacrifice for the cause , rather than simply being installed because they APPEAR to be the right person at the right time .
Obviously , there are advantages in having a well-known person fronting a movement in terms of profile and exposure , but unless – the single most important factor – the character of the person can be reliably ascertained , the mooted advantage often proves chimerical
Fuck me Marr is actually asking hard questions. But the answer? “I’m not going to answer you on this subject.”
Now he’s asking about Mr Murrell. Ooh, has Marr grown a pair?
She has stated that she did not lie and she will not resign.
As for Biagi, “strategic genius?” Aye right. One look at his background explains exactly why he has been selected.
H Scott says:
24 January, 2021 at 9:36 am
First three paragraphs of Mike Russell’s article in Sunday National pretty brutal take down of Nicola Sturgeon. He doesn’t mention her by name but he is obviously talking about her.
I can’t find this on the National’s website, any chance of a link?
I can’t stand Russell (I’ve met him, he’s an arrogant shite) but he is a bulldozer. If Nicola is in his sights she’s toast.
I thought Marr soft-pedalled a wee bit.
I noted, Sturgeon is still sticking-up for the Alphabet Sisters, regardless of the not guilty verdicts.
Maybe she should get a enw make-up artist. The Dusty Springfield tribute look around the eye shadow is not a good one for her.
She remains lukewarm on pushing for Independence.
Interesting tweet from Joanna Cherry on the miserable 11 point plan:
link to twitter.com
So this was concocted by who exactly? No input from MPs or MSPs, seems to conflict with the SG’s own case against Martin Keatings, and issued just before another one of their pointless National Assembly talking shops.
What the hell is going on in the SNP?
It would make Peoples Fronts in the former Warsaw Pact countries look open and accountable these days!
Marco Biagi has never held a job outside of politics in his life. Student politics at St.Andrew’s, dropped out of post grad at Oxford, on the gravy train with Keith Brown in 2007. Drops out of politics in 2016, allegedly still doing post grad at Yale. Zero leadership ability. Questions about mental health and alcohol abuse.
What’s his strategic input? How to get 50 or 60k a year with no real world work experience, a sketchy academic record and a track record of walking away from commitments?
Encapsulates just who gets ahead in the SNP.
Marr?
That is that.
Russell an arrogant shite?
If you want things done you have to have a pushy personality. That includes AS,NS K Mc etc etc.
I have experienced career threatening result just for insisting people did their jobs and with honesty.
Shite or not so long as it gets things done!
Sturgeon and her circle are part of a plan and it’s laid bare now for all to see and i belive the intention is to stop independence.
Firstly I don’t buy into this belief that the police have been put under pressure by the SG as they went after AS with enthusiasm leaving no stone unturned in their determination to find something , anything spending thousands of pounds on a fruitless investigation. Are we to be sold the idea that senior police chiefs with ever tight budgets were too afraid to stand up and refuse to be manipulated by the SG.
Then there is Craig Murray charged with contempt when others openly doing the same but left alone.
And Mike Hirst ambushed by the “Salmond team” of FIVE officers in what was a minor offence which of course turned out to be no offence at all. The five officers were there to burgle his home and their objective clearly was to find any scrap of evidence which could be used against independence.
I believe this campaign against those who have a profile and are vocal in their support of independence are being deliberately targeted by those at the highest level in the UK government and Sturgeon may or may not be a willing participant.
The police+ COPFS+ government.
@Andy Ellis
Here a threadreader link to Joanna’s tweet:
link to twitter.com
Just as well that we didn’t have Marco biaggi types populating Bruce’s army at bannockburn. We would have lost.
Is now a good time to remind the Independence supporting folk who desire Independence but do not want to vote for the SNP that to the best of my knowledge all the 19 recent positive polls do not include the 16-17 year old votes.
@McDuff – The UK Gov civil servants advised against the legislation which Sturgeon and Evans put in place in order to get Salmond.
This is Sturgeon’s doing. All the UK Gov are doing is ensuring a slow release to the public over a number of weeks so that, little by little, they will understand the complexities of the case.
It is Sturgeon that has caused the damage. The UK Gov will just maximize it before the election.
There was Marr giving Nicola her chance to say she didn’t break the ministerial code and she blew it.
Marr asked if she is found to have broken the ministerial code would she resign as expected?
Now if she hadn’t the very first thing she would have said would be “of course i would”. But she didn’t – more hedging and deflection. So that’s it she did- which all of us here already knew.
Sadly she will cling to her title of covid queen to weasel out of resigning – you know the stuff, extraordinary times, blah blah blah. Covid has been good for some eh? Sad to see this all being played out in Scotland and meantime the SNP members are paying £6 to go to a referendum assembly and the day before the already made “plan” is splashed on the front page of the national – just like the vow.
I tell you martin keatings who is a full time career for his mum has done ten times more than the snp for independence. It’s a disgrace the way the party has gaslighted us.
All the best Stu – keep up the amazing journalism and watch your back!
Wow… so there was zero consultation with any SNP MPs nor the NEC for the 11 point pile of pish.
Yeah so NS not acting like we have a presidential style system of governance in Scotland at all then.
It is pretty obvious Team Nicola has just had this nothing burger rubbish drawn up at the last moment to deflect attention away from the scandal currently engulfing her and her government and to garner much needed votes from the usual mugs who still believe this pish.
When you think of the collective experience, ideas and resources of all those MPs and MSPs and the NEC… but naw some Nicola drone arseholes at HQ know best.
Amongst all the other things I am so incredibly bored of Nicola Sturgeon.
The Notional shouting hurrah because of the 20th poll in a row showing a Yes lead. There could be 220, nay 2220 in a row showing a Yes majority and it would be of no use if the current SNP approach is maintained.
Marco Biagi doesn’t look like a strategist. I’d say he looks like someone who is the polar opposite of shrewd. OK, looks can decieve. But if they’d appointed someone to lead their task force who had a doctorate in mass psychology and who was also a chess grand master then I’d feel encouraged. But we know the project is just another Sturgeon/Murrell sham anyway.
Gullaneno4, @10:25am,
Is there a point to your statement?
Did anyone else notice the Israeli Minister say they were
following Pfizer’s advice and making the second inoculation
1 week after the first?
It started out as 3,weeks here and as the U.K. is incapable of that
they now say it’s 12 weeks?
Mac
Don’t forget The National being the biggest myopic Cheerleader for Team Nicola. How else can the SNP get away with cobbling this tosh together between Elevenses and Lunch and getting it splashed all over the front page?
What if Nicola had emailed them Peter’s shopping list for Waitrose by mistake? They’d likewise have probably splashed that without question.
I actually believe there were originally 12 points.
Problem being they couldn’t squeeze point 12 onto the back of the fag packet!
CY
Then how do you explain this apparant colusion at the highest levels between the police, COPFS and the government coordinated to destroy the independence movement.
I don’t believe Sturgeon has the ability to organise this on her own.There are others at work here and remember MI5 admitted in 2007 that it spied on the SNP so they have either stopped or upt the anti.
What do you believe.
Mike Russell article, Sun 24, Nat. –
link to archive.is
Socrates MacSporran says:
24 January, 2021 at 10:03 am
I thought Marr soft-pedalled a wee bit.
I noted, Sturgeon is still sticking-up for the Alphabet Sisters, regardless of the not guilty verdicts.
I agree. That was an easy ride with minimal cross examination. Decent enough lead questions, but no follow up or structure to the interrogation.
Her reference to Peter Murrell’s texts was utter tripe. There isn’t the slightest evidence emotions were simply running high, and the compounding of problems for Alex Salmond was the clear and unambiguous intention. Murrell’s explanation of the texts was lame in the extreme and thoroughly unconvincing.
I am also deeply curious why Sturgeon’s ‘defence’ cannot be articulated in any way before appearing at the Committee, when she doesn’t really know what questions the Inquiry Committee is going to ask. Any inquisition she doesn’t like, and down come the shutters. Why is ANY of her defence a secret or confidential?
And isn’t there an implicit risk that if she will only make her defence clear at the Inquiry, then surely, she is putting all her eggs in one basket that the Committee asks the right questions?
To me, that evasiveness resembles a strategy where you’re trying to limit your exposure to the frequency of searching interrogations so you have less to remember inbetween those investigations, and thus reduce the chances of contradicting yourself with inconsistencies between narratives. Standard investigative procedure has a suspect repeat their story again and again to reveal inconsistencies. The ‘truth’ in contrast is a story you can rattle off again and again like a machinegun and get it straight at every telling.
I actually wonder whether it’s a damage limitation exercise, and she is laying groundwork for a damaging cross examination, and afterwards complaining that the Inquiry didn’t ask the right questions to allow to establish her defence properly…
My only fresh thought on the Section 30 Agreement was to consider whether the Scottish Governments acceptance of a Section 30 veto on a referendum is in effect any LESS undemocratic than Westminster applying that veto.
This Section 30 “debate” is just a stitch up between two parties who would both merrily commute Scottish Democracy and Constitutional Sovereignty, but of the two, it is Westminster who is at least being honest about it.
Sturgeon pretty much then hollowed out the bottom of the SNP’s boat by then suggesting the Scottish Government might then do the very thing which Martin Keatings already is doing, test the veracity of Section 30 in Court, but he’s doing it in the teeth of determined obstruction coming from the shameless Scottish Government. Hypocrisy writ large yet again.
I suspect if Marr had briefed himself by listening to the Tommy Sheridan / Gordon Dangerfield Podcast, that Sturgeon’s interview would have been more of a revealing interrogation. Lets hope the Inquiry Committee are familiar with Tommy’s Podcast.
A recurring theme which keeps cropping up again and again seems to be that the Scottish Government’s Complaints Policy only screwed up because it made a couple of mistakes, when the Sheridan / Dangerfield conversation paints a thoroughly different landscape of incompetence, hubris, and gross misconduct which has already been established with Mr Salmond’s half million expenses.
A common feature of Nicola Sturgeon’s rhetoric seems to be a steadfast capacity to deny reality and simply make the awkward bits and conflicting truths just disappear. Maybe that’s a prerequistite for being a Wheesht-for-Indy Sturgeonista too.
I’m not reading any criticism of st Nicola in Mike Russell piece.
I think he’s having a pop at those who are not buying team snp/yet another mandate nonsense.
His phrase, that the non team players flounce off to start their own party, and use the phrase, I never left the party, the party left me, kind of points in that direction.
That’s my interpretation about it anyway.
I think he’s trying to spike the guns of anyone who defects from the snp today.
Davie Oga says: @ 24 January, 2021 at 10:06 am
‘Encapsulates just who gets ahead in the SNP’
Thanks, Davie, it took me 150 words as part of a previous rant to say just that: –
…Dogmas will be recited
Repeated and retweeted
And when truth and propaganda
Are headed for collision
Truth is the one
Taking the road to Perdition
Yes, sadly, we are ruled
By marionettes who scorn the truth
Enrolled and indoctrinated
From the time of their youth
They who join political parties
As soon as they leave school
Some perfect candidates
To be the Lord of Misrule
And whose total worldly experience
Is gained from a mobile screen
As they gleefully parrot soundbites
Sent by a research team
And believe that loyalty is to close their eyes
To those who drink and party and assume
That position makes it acceptable
To covertly groom
While naïve members from the farm
Do not see risk or harm
Ensuring schoolkids get their share
Shrewdly introduced to the unaware
By Flow or Blow, it’s all in the name
An enriching Job, claim the insane….
Effijy – FDA in the USA said stick to 3 weeks last time I looked. New Scientist 16 Jan has coverage of the issue.
Daisy Walker says:
24 January, 2021 at 11:15 am
I’m not reading any criticism of st Nicola in Mike Russell piece.
Me nether.
@ StuartM at 2:32 am
Consider these points
The councils answer to the Scottish Administration (the whole body not the party)
It’s exceedingly difficult IF the member ,is denied ANY OPPORTUNITY to speak out , conveners prohibit the chance AND the heid bummers do likewise, cutting all funding is a legitimate action….Remember where is your part of the half million?
One can’t fight if you have no VETO and NO VOICE
Why not orginise a revolt? Simply members are told that they can not speak against the Supreme Commander.
GRA and Hate Crime? the above applies there too,
To critise the likes of the Woke Master General and his Troops will get you thrown out the Brownies and a subsequent tirade
Plus the members are afraid, important that one
Is there time to stop the Wokerati from becoming SNP candidates or has the previous NEC nobbled that?
Eh No, you could petition to have them removed, I doubt that would work, remove all campaigning for the candidate
Again that will not work, the minute you say that .You’re gone You think I’m kidding ? from reading this site I’d have a guess there are at least 10 here
What can be done to deselect a Leader ? You can just say enough is enough and tell them to Bugger off.
Of course there in lies a sever problem.
You need to have the “bottle” to do it, and that is lacking
link to bbc.co.uk Blinky McBlinkyface blinking at 1000 nauts a minute AGAIN!11
Last observation too… Nicola Sturgeon ‘not’ revealing her all-conquering defence prior to the Inquiry Committee’s appearance, bears all the hallmarks of Nicola Sturgeon ‘not’ revealing her all-conquering strategy for winning Scottish Independence…
Also very good article from Iain Macwhirter, which Craig Murray has on his Twitter account.
It highlights Lord Advocate Wolfe part in the MALICIOUS Prosecution for which he is to public ally acknowledge and apologise for.
Why is he still in post?
Why is he not suspended, pending enquiry to have him debarred?
Why is this not subject to criminal enquiry, with a view to having the perpetrators convicted and jailed?
And why the hell, are our fine, upstanding, safe pair of hands/government, not shouting about this from the rooftops.
If Boris did this, would they be so quiet. Actually, scrub that, they probably wouldn’t say boo.
And from a tactical, let’s win over the no voters, point of view, how on earth does pursuing a Malicious Prosecution against RANGERS!!!!!!! Assist that in any way.
when the Unionists decide to cash in on this…. probably at the end of Feb May, the likes of Mike Russell are going to long for the hay on days, when the harshest thing former supporters said about them, was I never left the Party, the Party left me.
Spineless, unethical, unimaginative, incompetent, inept, inert, corrupt, useless, betraying, bastards.
And they’re doing it deliberately.
Highland Bill says:
24 January, 2021 at 11:26 am
link to bbc.co.uk Blinky McBlinkyface blinking at 1000 nauts a minute AGAIN!11
Yes, blink and you’ll miss it 🙂
“The UK Gov civil servants advised against the legislation which Sturgeon and Evans put in place in order to get Salmond”
Do we actually have evidence for that advice? The only thing I have found is an email from the UK gov cabinet to Hynd (sent on the 17 Nov) that says:
“Hi James
This feels very uncomfortable to be highlighting a process for complaints about Ministers and former Ministers.
[redacted] doing a quick review for Jeremy on whether our process have kept pace with developments/concerns – would it be possible to wait for this?
Is this process/guidance more than you have in place for complaints about current or former civil servants?
Happy to discuss if easier
[redacted]”
In this email it is clear the UK gov cabinet was going to review the procedure further. We don’t seem to have that review in the evidence. What is also missing is the response from Hynd to the UK Cabinet addressing their two questions:
1. would it be possible to wait for this?
2. Is this process/guidance more than you have in place for complaints about current or former civil servants?
Why hasn’t that email been submitted to the inquiry?
Was it because the FM and Evans were not prepared to wait for their review?
Was it because it puts the Scottish government under a very bad light or because it was given by phone?
I am actually astonished that the Committee has not sought to get this. This is a crucial point when, receiving that answer, any sensible person would be immediately apply the breaks to the procedure and seeking legal advice to cover their backs.
Let’s bear in mind that this was the 17 November 2017 and that policy did not get signed until December 2017. There was plenty of time. It was not until the 22 November that Sturgeon sent that letter to Evans asking her to proceed with the former ministers. Does that mean she read the “review” from the UK gov cabinet and did not think much of it? Does it mean the review was favourable? Or does this mean the review never arrived because the UK gov cabinet were told Sgov was going to press ahead with the procedure anyway?
Why aren’t we shown that exchange of information that is crucial to ascertain if the Sgov acted negligently?
The committee should get hold of that review.
This email from [Private Secretary 1] to Hynd is interesting:
“Oh dear, I did wonder if that would be their reaction. Not sure how long their review will take but FM and Perm Sec keen to resolve quickly and to discuss on Tuesday.
I suspect we don’t have a policy on former civil servants. But we are looking at this in the context of the overall review of policies and the justification for having something about
Ministers is the action that Parliament is taking in light of allegations about MSP conduct – which includes a recent SG Minister?
Might be worth getting Nicky’s take on the question about civil servants”
The response above from that private secretary is quite enlightening:
1. they already suspected the uK cabinet office was not going to like the procedure, but they carry on regardless – was this because somebody ensured to them the policy would never be contested in a court of law and they were safe?
2. It is evident that Sturgeon and Evans were the ones on a rush to release this new procedure. Why were they in such a rush to release the new procedure? What was this procedure aiming to stop?
3. It clearly didn’t even cross their minds that it is inconsistent and very odd to have such a complaints procedure designed specifically for ministers, never mind former ministers when you don’t have or you are not designing in parallel the equivalent procedure for civil servants, particularly when most of these people were in fact civil servants.
Were these people of the opinion that harassment only counts when a minister is responsible, but not when it is a civil servant who does it? This to me shows they were trying to use this procedure as a weapon to stitch up ministers/former ministers rather than actually tacking harassment in the workplace at all levels.
4.Nicky’s take on the equivalent policy for civil servants? – Did Nicky think this policy was not necessary because you do not need a weapon to stitch up politically civil servants?
Was a similar policy for civil servants ever considered, never mind started?
If I was in the committee for the inquiry I would have been over these private secretary 1, Hynd and this “Nicky” like a rash demanding to know if a similar procedure for civil servants was ever considered and initiated in parallel and if not, why not.
And it it was, where it is. I would also demand an answer to the question: clearly from that email this complaints procedure was initiated even before know with certainty if a similar procedure was designed/ was going to be designed for civil servants. So why was it considered that it was more important to have this procedure in place for ministers and former ministers quickly first but the same thought was not given to a parallel procedure for civil servants working in the SGov?
I think the Committee missed a couple of open goals there. Did they do so deliberately because this inquiry was never designed to be a thorough procedure and rather a whitewash for Sturgeon’s actions?
Ebok
Fantastic poem
Is Russell expecting defections following the recipe for Indy whipped up in a broom cupboard by someone ?. Nobody seems to know who did it or when. Sounds like another enquiry job.
A united Ireland is looking more likely than an independent Scotland, link to archive.is
That’s going to reflect badly on the
gradualistsfoot-draggers.The Frankfurt School had an eleven point plan too ,some points are the same as SNP and their aim was to wreck society.
link to tapnewswire.com
Great analysis Mia.
Why the great urgency, particularly in the face of WM doubts, particularly, given the complaints (and I don’t know if they officially existed at that time) the complaints were historic (very), and the alleged accuse was no longer within their working environment.
Pushing it through at great speed, would appear to have been more about attempting to scupper AS returning to the Indy playing field in the years leading up to Brexshit.
And for those still asking , but why? Look at how successful they have been in achieving that.
Does anyone think, that if Alex had not been out of play, and having to deal with all this, that if he had publicly, or indeed privately within the snp, said, it’s time to campaign for a PEH, that the whole world would not have stood up and listened.
PS st Nicola looked rough on tv today, positively hungov…. haggart. No doubt it’s all the worry of having to deal single handedly with COVID.
Looking forward to her speech though. All together now
Somewhere over the rainbow
Way up high
There’s an indyref awaiting
Somewhere where the pigs do fly.
Remember now, both votes for the Scottish Neverhavem Party… look at the polls, look at the polls.
Stuart MacKay @ 11:49 am
A united Ireland is looking more likely than an independent Scotland, link to archive.is
That’s going to reflect badly on the gradualists foot-draggers.
Aye, and where will all the nutters move to? Thousands of them, all with a vote, assuming of course they possess the intelligence to mark an X in a box of course.
Still, all the more reason the SNP need to get the finger out NOW.
I agree, along with other commentators, that Lothian’s synopsis is spot on regarding how Nicola Sturgeon has come to be influenced, coerced and controlled by agents of the British State. However, I think there is an additional factor at play – that of the problem of evil. Even the UK Government advised against changing the law retrospectively to frame former ministers and yet Nicola Sturgeon was adamant and continued with her vindictiveness. Such a person can only de described as evil. Black Sabbath’s “Evil Woman” springs to mind:
I see the look of evil in your eyes
You’ve been filling me all full of lies
Sorrow will not change your shameful deeds
Wickedness lies in your moistened lips
Evil woman, don’t you play your games with me
PS. And I agree with Daisy above. The followers of Nicola Sturgeon will eventually wake up and realise that there isn’t a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
Stuart Mackay @11:49
“ A united Ireland is looking more likely than an independent Scotland,”
And guess where the Yoon Prods will flock when that happens?
I have had it first hand from family members of that persuasion that they’ll be packing up and will be Glasgow-bound in the event of a United Ireland, and I’m sure the British Government will be only too happy to grease their path and their palms in order to provide the opportunity for them to “stay British”.
If that happens, I’ll be heading the other way!
“(and I don’t know if they officially existed at that time)”
The official complaints only arrived in January after the procedure was actually signed.
However, from the timeline updated on “6 December” (document CPhase1FN10/XX047) we know that there had already been at least contact with one of the complainants (Mrs A).
In that timeline there is an entry on the 5 November (2017) that reads:
“NR/JMack meet Mrs A. Sought views on draft policy- whether this have helped her at the time and how to put in place safeguards for the future”
Not only they already had a complainant coming forward, that this complainant was given access to the draft policy and asked opinion on how to change it. It is everybody’s guess how at that point any of them could have verified this lady was telling the truth, and was not just taking advantage of the situation to throw dirt on someone.
Now, in line with that timeline, this was a meeting. This means that the meeting would need to have been arranged before hand. The letter sent by Evans to the civil servants informing them of the new procedure was sent on the 2nd November. So sometime between the 2nd Nov and 5th contact was established by this complainant with the S Gov or via an intermediary (SnP?), unless they knew about this complaint before. Somebody put her in contact with NR/JMac and somebody arranged this meeting. Who?
To me the words “whether this have helped her at the time and how to put in place safeguards for the future” Are quite intriguing because if they mean “whether this WOULD have helped her at the time”, they clearly suggest that either this person was no longer working in the government or the person she was accusing did no longer work in government. But what they suggest too is that at that particular point there was no intention to go after former ministers.
So when did that change took place and what prompted it?
Why were Sturgeon and Evans so rushed to release this half baked procedure out?
Was this complaint seen as an opportunity to transform the complaints procedure into a weapon against Salmond to give weight to the Sky nonsense that was circulating at the time?
What was happening around those days? This was published in the Guardian on the 2nd November 2017:
“Alex Salmond joins bid to take control of anti-independence paper the Scotsman”
This was published in the Guardian on the 3rd Nov 2017
“Scotsman editor hits back at Alex Salmond over ‘ill-informed attack'”
This was published by the Scotsman on the 4th Nov 2017:
“Salmond claims time is ripe for second referendum push”
If you are to believe the submissions of a couple of civil servants to the inquiry, it was on the 6th Nov (one day after this complainant met NR/JMac) that the rumblings of SKY around civil servants started.
More recently, Sturgeon read out in an interview messages she exchanged with Mr Salmond, coincidentally on the week of the 5th November 2017, the day NR/JMac were meeting with Ms A:
“Around about the time I spoke to [Mr Salmond] about the Sky News query, I sent him a message on 5 November saying, ‘Hi, when you free to speak this morning?’ He replies saying ‘10am’.
“That’s when I asked him, ‘What is this Sky thing?’”
“I go back to him later that day to say, ‘Any developments?’
“The next day, I say, ‘You free for a word?’
“Later that week, incidentally, I messaged him to say, ‘No wonder you didn’t want to tell me’. “That’s just after I find out that he’s agreed to host a regular show on Russia Today, and it reflects my incredulity at that decision.”
My question: was the SkY thingy a cover up of the real reason why Sturgeon was contacting Salmond?
Published on the 9th November 2017:
“Alex Salmond to host talkshow for Russian broadcaster RT”
“Salmond under fire for signing TV show deal with Russia Today channel”
In this Herald article:
“SNP MEP Alyn Smith told the Herald: “What the f*** is he thinking?”
Sturgeon, of course waited until the 10th to issue publicly her criticism.
This was published on the 15 Nov 2017:
“David Cameron rejects Alex Salmond’s offer to be guest on RT show”
Clearly he had them all more than rattled with his RT programme.
And the question remains:
What was the real reason that transformed an innocuous complaints procedure into a weapon to stitch Mr Salmond?
@Davie Oga says:
24 January, 2021 at 10:06 am
Marco Biagi has never held a job outside of politics in his life.
I think, if I remember rightly, that he stood in the seat vacated by Michelle Thompson. I went to the hustings and his main tactic seemed to be to blame Labour (out of power for quite a while by then) whilst having no positive ideas of his own.
Look forward to biagio being front and centre of the next YES rally.
Mia, another forensic dissecting of the evidence. I agree the timescale seems entirely linked to neutering Alex, and nothing to do with proper complaints procedure.
Re Marco Biagi, one should not judge a book by its cover, but since he’S not a book… he looks like a thoroughly nice, compliant, gentle, do what he’s told type fella, without the ability to rock the boat, or have any kind of inspiring initiative about him in any way.
@ Derek at 1.12
No, that was not Marco Biagi. The SNP candidate in Edinburgh West in 2017 was Toni Gugliano, who has now shifted to Dumbarton in an attempt to unseat Jacki Baillie.
TG had already failed to hold Edinburgh Western in 2016, loising to Alex Cole-Hamilton.
Archived version of the Times article mentioned in a few posts above:
link to archive.fo
(Nice graphs!)
@ me at 6.29
That Times article also mentions the Keatings case, which is perhaps encouraging.
O/T.St Nicola’s recent insistence that there will be another referendum this year has me thinking. Maybe she’s been given a heads up from the court’s or copfs that Martin keatings s30 case will be successful,and will try and get on the right side of history for once.
What I, as a plebeian, thinks…
Originally, M Keatings was saying that Lady(?) Carmichael would deliver a judgement “in weeks”.
However, at the hearing, she said that she would deliver her judgement “in days, rather than weeks”.
To me, the fact that she mentioned that Sovereignty lies with the people of Scotland and, that she’s going to announce her judgement in the next few days, leads me to assume that, maybe, she had her mind made up and the two day hearing reinforced her view.
A bomb under the SNP coming?
***SOLIDARITY STATEMENT***
SNP HIERARCHY’S 11 POINT PLAN IS DOOMED TO FAIL!
The SNP hierarchy’s new Plan to pursue an Independence Referendum for Scotland is doomed to fail, and they know it.
The 11 point plan gives Indy supporters nothing new and is merely a repeat of previous promises.
After almost 7 years since the last referendum, the SNP hierarchy have attained no less than six mandates and made promises to hold IndyRef2 in 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, and now 2023!
Crucially in that time, they have refused to even discuss any other option, other that requesting permission from the UK Government, through a Section 30 Order.
Now, they are referring to their plan to hold a unilateral referendum as being “legal”, and are egging on the Tories to challenge them, which they inevitably will.
This is the latest in long line of unfulfilled promises and the independence movement is getting to the point of having enough.
Tommy Sheridan, Solidarity National Convener said: “Over the past six years, the SNP Government has attained no less than six mandates to pursue IndyRef2 and failed to act on any of them.
“They wasted four and a half years trying to stop Brexit in England & Wales, who’s people democratically voted for it, rather than use their mandates to pursue a Second Independence Referendum!
“Now they have come up with this so called “Road Map to a Referendum”. The people of Scotland don’t want a Road Map to a Referendum, they want a Road Map to Independence!
“Over half the population of Scotland now wants the forthcoming Scottish Parliament elections to be a plebiscite for independence.
“If the SNP hierarchy is serious about independence, they can simply recognise that, include it in their Election Manifesto, and if a majority vote for Independence supporting Parties, then independence can be declared and an application to the UN can be made for international recognition. It’s that simple”! “Anything less is not good enough”!
Ken Ross, Solidarity Assistant National Secretary said: “The warning signs of the SNP Hierarchy’s failure to commit to independence have been there for all to see for some time.
“They wasted four and a half years trying to stop Brexit in England & Wales; they prioritised pursing controversial GRA and Hate Crime Bills, rather than putting independence at the forefront of their agenda; and only a few months ago, at their virtual Conference, they blocked no less than 38 Motions seeking to discuss a Plan B alternative to asking permission from the UK Government.
“You would also think they would be pursuing every legal avenue possible, in pursuit of independence, yet they are opposing the current Court action by Martin Keatings, who is arguing that the Scottish Parliament does not need permission from the UK Government, through a Section 30 Order.
“If they were truly serious about trying to get independence then you would expect that that would have been an action they would have supported, if not raised themselves, instead of opposing it, in order to put the legality of a referendum proposal beyond doubt, before promising it ahead of the Scottish Parliament elections.
“The Tories will almost certainly challenge any such unilateral referendum in the courts, which could put back any progress towards independence, years. The SNP hierarchy must know this.
“Independence supporters are becoming more and more frustrated. The SNP hierarchy must pursue independence without any further delay instead of being concerned with maintaining power within Scotland, whilst promising “Jam Tomorrow”!
***STATEMENT ENDS***
John Park
Thanks for that. Its very clear that the Solidarity Party is committed to delivering independence at this May’s election. Which gives independence voters another positive option.
Now, at least, we have a newspaper that will actually print something independence related. Maybe when more of them realise that most of their readership is pro indy and they could seriously boost their circulation by reflecting public opinion instead of stifling it.
The SNP leadership can’t quell the rising feeling of the public. Barely 10 years ago only one in four would have voted for indy, now it’s holding steady at over half. By the time we can have a referendum support should be unassailable.
@crazycat says:
24 January, 2021 at 6:27 pm
@ Derek at 1.12
“No, that was not Marco Biagi. The SNP candidate in Edinburgh West in 2017 was Toni Gugliano, who has now shifted to Dumbarton in an attempt to unseat Jacki Baillie.
TG had already failed to hold Edinburgh Western in 2016, loising to Alex Cole-Hamilton.”
Thanks for that! He’s probably ontae plums through west, too…