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Wings Over Scotland


Everybody gets two

Posted on June 24, 2016 by

Chances, that is.

Yesterday the UK as a whole voted to leave the European Union, while Scotland voted to stay in. Unless something is done, Scotland will be dragged out of the EU against its clearly-expressed will – the margin for Remain was two and a half times the margin for No in 2014.

The temptations for Yes voters are almost overwhelming. The rage that many of them feel is genuine and fully justified. Scotland was lied to remorselessly and relentlessly throughout the indyref campaign, threatened and bullied and cowed into staying in a fantasy UK bearing no resemblance to the one we now find ourselves in.

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The sheer irony of the UK plunging into exactly the sort of calamitous uncertainty we were told would befall an independent Scotland would test the character of a saint.

And for everyone whose restraint is being stretched to the very limits of its endurance today, we have a two-word message: George Square.

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Remember how we all felt that day, as Loyalist thugs screamed and gestured and gloated across our TV screens? Did it make us more Unionist? Did it make us want to give up, get back in our box, eat our cereal and obey our Queen?

When David Cameron appeared outside Downing Street and started talking about English Votes For English Laws before the counting halls were even empty, did it make us vow to knuckle down and work for a better Union? Or did it make us redouble our determination to stick to our path?

Why would other people be any different?

Social media is already alive with people reporting No friends who now say they’ll vote Yes. If we treat them like Cameron treated Scots on the morning of 19th September 2014, any chance of winning them over will be lost. Venting your spleen in righteous fury will feel good, briefly, but the hangover will be deadly.

If and when – and it surely is “when” – a second indyref arrives, this site will be merciless to those who repeat the lies and threats of the first one. But we’ve just been given a second chance, and everybody else deserves one too. Sometimes the facts we based our decisions on simply change, never mind the enormous pressure that the British establishment and media exerted on Scottish voters.

So this isn’t the time for a shaken fist, a provocative salute or a raised middle finger, it’s time to reach out a hand. People have been cheated and robbed of something they were promised. If they want to join us in fighting for it now, then let’s welcome them warmly, not angrily berate them for being fooled before.

Because the past is done. But maybe that way, they won’t get fooled again.

And we won’t have to endure this a second time.

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    570 to “Everybody gets two”

    1. cearc says:

      schrodingers cat,

      cadogan enright said earlier that he’d been signing passport forms all day.

    2. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      stephen,

      Save the mindless pish. It gets us nowhere. Do you want indy to win, or just gratify yourself with a cheap jibe?

      Wise up, jokers. When it comes to indyref2,

      WE. WILL. NEED. EVERY. VOTE.

      Every gratuitous insult not only offends the intended, but likely many other potential converts too. (Maybe of course that’s the deliberate intention of some posting here.)

      Far better surely to respect the rev’s wise injunction?

    3. Balaaargh says:

      Was reading on euractiv tonight that the UK might not get the EU presidency as per the normal rota when it comes round next year.

      And there’s gonna be a big meetin’ o’ the high heid yins on Wednesday.

      Cameron’s no invited. He’d better get used tae that!

    4. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Rock –

      ‘I don’t care if you were a member of the SSP.’

      Oh really?

      Then why did you bring it up in the first place?

      All we get from you is an endless list of people and institutions who should not be trusted, who cannot bring ‘us’ what we want.

      Please consider, if you can – does the Yes movement want or need characters like you?

    5. Andrew McLean says:

      Rock,

      Ffs man, the national is not the enemy, until they decide to be, get with the program! Really you think the national is an issue not sellers, ? The arch unionist? Fuck of with the national when supposed support is actually.

      Cat bag and out.

    6. Andrew McLean says:

      Because Ian for all his faults, rock,apart from the national thing, has his heart, (if not his head) in the right place.

    7. Still Positive. says:

      Where have all the posts gone?

    8. Ananurhing says:

      Check out BBC24 The Papers. David Torrance…..WTF! Has he had some damascene epiphany or what? He skelps Toby Young’s pate, and seems to be relishing in Scotland’s new found perception as a distinctly separate country.

    9. Almannysbunnet says:

      The Daily Record coming out for indy2! Jakey making tentative moves in the right direction, various anecdotal stories of staunch no voters changing their minds? I’m thinking, aye right. Then today a woman in her 70’s who I have been at loggerheads with for the last two years on indie. Absolutely impossible to get through to. You know the type, “that Salmond wasting ah the oil money, ah them doctors going on strike because of Sturgeon” on and on, hasn’t got a clue. I gave up wasting my time on her months ago. Well blow me down if she didn’t just come up to me today and say “did you see Nicola (not that Sturgeon wumman). Wonderful speech. I hope she gets another referendum because you were right you cannae trust Westminster. I’m voting yes.” This EU out result has really touched a nerve with people we thought were a lost cause.
      Nicola said today something along the lines that she had been inundated with no voters now changing to yes after last nights EU vote. I wonder if it’s anyone we know.
      I’d just about given up on seeing a free Scotland in my lifetime, not anymore.

    10. Martin says:

      So why put up all those pictures that rekindle the hatred?

    11. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ananurhing,

      Torrance, eh? Maybe it’s a straw in the wind, a hint at the promised post-Brexit change in policy at The Herald. They surely must feel pretty “taken in” by BT now.

      If true, another rust hole below the waterline in the doomed ship that is the SS Ukok.

      Let’s welcome it if it happens.

    12. White Van Wummin says:

      See the Green Party are having a petition to keep Scotland in the EU, I thought we had just had a referendum where 1.6 million Scots had voted to stay in.

      Anyway I like the way they makes it sound as if without them no one would be bothering to find a way to keep us in the EU.

      The petition is here if you don’t have a life…
      https://greens.scot/keep-scotland-in-europe

      Fannies.

    13. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Almannysbunnet,

      Thank you for that. It has cheered me up no end. A lovely positive note with which to go dreaming tonight.

    14. Dr Jim says:

      Now that it’s happening our tellys and newspapers are going to fill up with previously NO voting so called worthies all demanding a piece of the Independence action and offering the FM and the SNP their pearls of wisdom and if they’re not consulted at every opportunity will threaten to go in the huff because, they’ll decide Independence should belong more to them than anybody else

      Such is the nature of human behaviour, especially right here in River City
      Glasgow particularly has this trait as part of it’s make up
      “If I’m not getting a shot I’ll break it” and unfortunately our politics is just as bad, and it’s part of the reason as to why low turnout for elections is the norm

      The level of cynicism in Glasgow is so high we’re even cynical about that and Scotlands so called Champion of the people Daily Record newspaper is a perfect example of that character and it survives against all the odds because for some strange reason Central Scotland enjoys self harming and watching the blood flow out then feel justified in complaining about it

      Anyone could be forgiven for thinking all of Scotlands “Journalists” must have learned their trade at some time on the Daily Record and then proceeded to infect the rest of the population with it’s wretched Lurgy

      Unfortunately it has been the training manual for the Labour party in Scotland and it’s definitely a reason as to why we’re burdoned with the low level standard of politicos that emanate from that party

      The flood of advice that’s coming with demands, threats and caveats included will be raked over by STV and derided by the BBC followed by credence in the Daily Record all to be laid before the SNP with attention demanded

      If I as a humble member of the party had one piece of advice to offer the FM it would be this

      Don’t listen to anyones advice including mine just do the things you know that need done while consulting everyone and then ignoring every word they say

    15. Ananurhing says:

      I woke up this morning after little sleep with an overwhelming feeling that we’ve actually already done it. Indyref2 is a formality.

      Today’s events have been astonishing and have reinforced what I felt this morning. There seems to be a tacit acceptance of Scotland as a completely separate entity, from all corners of Scottish society, and the UK media. In a way we’ve never seen before.

      I think we could learn from Norway’s journey to independence. They simply assumed their independence. They postured and behaved like an independent sovereign state to the point it became an accepted norm in the national mentality. And led to a 99.?% Yes vote in their independence referendum.

      I think today is a rock solid foundation upon which we can build an acceptable case for self government, but it hasn’t quite dawned on us yet.

      Astonishing.

    16. Iain More says:

      I forgot that Queenie will be pissed as well at losing all those EU subsidies – oh dear. I wonder how many of the above crew in the photos see the irony of that?

    17. mealer says:

      The UK Parliament is firmly Europhile.The UK will only be coming out of the EU a wee bit.Just enough to ensure a complete halt to EU expansionism.Not enough to see the EU crash and burn.

      If there is an indyref2,what will the No offer be? Will English back benchers fight tooth and nail to keep Scotland in the UK this time? Who,apart from the OO and the Scottish Tories,are going to be on the No side?

    18. Kevin Evans says:

      Every cloud has a silver lining and all that. Indyref2 can at least dump the dead weight like that complete fud Jim sillars.

    19. schrodingers cat says:

      They postured and behaved like an independent sovereign state to the point it became an accepted norm in the national mentality

      seeing nicola meeting up with the 27 presidents should help

      she should tell westminster to do one or send her foreign affairs minister to discuss the way forward with bojo

    20. ScotsCanuck says:

      I will never revoke my belief in Scottish Sovereignty and this Brexit only confirms my belief that this beautiful, wee country and the folk who bide in it should decide their collective future. We must now state our democratically will through our elected officials …. we are part of Europe !!!

    21. steph says:

      @ian, 8.11pm

      Sorry about your wee dog Alice. Can only recommend getting yourself down the nearest rescue centre, and see what happens… *hugs*

    22. Strathclyde Politics says:

      I am wondering if anyone who reads Stus excellent page could help me with a spare 5 mins to help with a quick #euref survey i am doing for university? Survey is here http://bit.ly/28SryR8

      It would take less than 5 mins and really need some remain supporters perspective

      Thanks in advance and great website

      survey is here http://bit.ly/28SryR8

    23. Ghillie says:

      Wow. What a night and a half. Still feeling disturbed by the choices our neighbours have made. But my feeling is that many had no idea what they signed up for.

      Scotland, pure gold! I am so proud of the people of Scotland = )

      I wonder if this Scottish instinct to do the right thing and return the Remain vote so resoundingly has helped shake off some of the Scottish cringe? And how decent and courageous of those to now admit, especially to themselves, that they may have made the wrong choice the first time round.

      Brilliant posts tonight = ) Andrew Mclean @ 12.03am ‘ it’s not where we’ve been, but where we are going’ 🙂
      To ere is human. To forgive is divine.

      Ahundredthidiot, Ian Brotherhood, Kestral, Almannysbunnet, Scots Canut and the rest of you = )

      Anarurhing @ 1.30am That is an amazing thought! I think you are right! Lets go for it = )

      Indiref2 Yes! I’m ready!

    24. Iain says:

      Sitting here in Portugal on holiday, it is inconceivable that Scotland will not be part of Europe. If little England wants to go and play on its own at being a small racist county, who are we to stop them. But make no mistake, they will not be allowed to drag us down to their isolated xenophobic little world. The people of Scotland are better than that,
      Freedom must be taken, we owe it to our children.

    25. Ken500 says:

      It is just unbelievable.

      They are like lemmings over a cliff. They just voted out of the EU to muck up the economy. Voted for the right wing politicians who are robbing them blind. Farague is a crook who has been funding a political party with public money for years. The Press is owned by tax evading non Doms. The migration crisis in Europe is caused by Westminster crooks, illegally bombing the Middle East to bits for years. Supporting apartheid states and absolute despot monarchies.

      The Tory/Unionists are complete crooks. They have been illegally and secretly taking the equivalent of £Billions from Scotland for years. Thatcher/McCrone Report kept it secret for thirty years under the Official Secrets Act.

      Scotland raises £54Billion in taxes more pro rata than the rest of the UK. The UK raises
      £515Billion. Take £54Billion from £515Billion = £461Billion. Divide by 11 = £44Billion. The rest of the UK borrows and spends £95Billion more. Scotland raises £54Billion without Oil revenues.

      Osbourne has ruined the Oil sector in Scotland taxing it at 60/80% when the price had fallen 75%. Costing Scotland £4Billion+ a year and losing thousands of jobs.

      The UK Union costs Scotland £10Billion+ a year which could be better spent. Trident/illegal wars, ‘loss leading’ drink, tax evasion, loan repayments Scotland doesn’t borrow or spend, lost Oil revenues etc.

      The EU cost nothing and brought benefits. Good social Laws, nearest biggest market etc.

      It is just beyond belief what the Tory/Unionists have done.

    26. Andrew McLean says:

      Gillis,
      Can’t sleep, tried alcohol but it just makes it worse,mi can’t explain the feeling I have, it’s like I have woken up, with a heavy heart, then remembered that my dog has been knocked down by my next door neighbor, I know he didn’t mean to do it, but every day I have to look at him and not say “what the fuck you blind bastard!” Instead just smile and say “good morning”.

      Sorry I am Scottish, this Pretend English foppish politeness hurts, ” what the fuck have you done you bunch of fucking Nazi racist fucking pricks, ok we were out anyway but you didn’t have to pish in the fuckng well before we left, you absolutely despicable wankers”! ” you are not gods gift, you are not the chosen few, you are a bunch of arse wipes, expected those who voted remain, who must be as sickened a I am!

      Honestly it’s like wakening up and realising you live next to Jimmy How’s about that boys and girls, let Jim fix you up? You just are fuckng ashamed, and wish you could pick up your house and move a thousand miles away from the prick!

    27. Andrew McLean says:

      If that wasn’t bad, my family’s nationalists, the bloody weans voted yes, now the leader of the second main fuckng political party in my country wants to slay them? Fuck right of you nasty fuckng bitch, you deserve jail, there’s actually people who have gotten a criminal record for exposing the same shot as you! You nasty nasty bitch!

    28. Ken500 says:

      The silver lining is there is now a golden opportunity to break free from the ‘psycho bastards’. Another Independence Ref which will win.

      Johnston and Gove will reap the backlash. Johnston is getting booed in London.

    29. Your montage could easily be stills from Ken Russell’s ‘The Devils’.
      It is difficult to imagine that this fascist ‘show of strength’ from ‘King Billy’s Loyal sons’ (and sadly daughters) was not in part inspiration for Baroness Davidson’s of the Mound rebranding of the Blue Tory Northern Colony as the Conservative and Unionist Party, and Professor Two Jobs WATP Tompkins, and The Queen’s Eleven Murdo Fraser hate filled soubriquets. (That’s now a ‘foreign’ word, Mags Curran.I guess this kiboshes your plans to open a tapas bar (drat, another ‘foreign’ word, Mags.)?
      These ‘foreign’ words are everywhere, taking over ideas and concepts from our good old Brit vocabulary, edging out good Brit standbys like, Kraut, Paddy, Wop, Froggie, Sweaty, and Taff.
      I refuse to be banished from Europe by the Far Right xenophobes of our southern neighbours and their Brownshirts, who have been described as the ‘conservative’ traditional Labour support.
      Labour do not have support of any significance Up Here; neither do the Con and Unionist Party.
      Holyrood is now de facto our only Parliament. If Dugdale or Davidson prattle on about fizzy drinks in tuck shops, or the SNP’s failure to repair cracked toilet seat is social housing, they should be consigned to the pages of the Great Almanac of totally utterly fucking useless poor excuses for politicians. (The Brit version now runs to 13 thousand page volumes.)
      Your photo montage is still chillingly frightening, Stu.
      There I go again with another ‘foreign’ word.
      WE must approach the Commission now, before England begin Article 50 horse trading.
      Thank god that you archive images of the 19th September Loyalist disgrace; unlike BBC on the night, your montage requires no further comment.

      ‘Do you wish Scotland to become an independent country and remain a member of the EU?’ Oui ou Non?

      I gasp for breath at the concept that we can be treated this way by our English neighbours.

    30. Breeks says:

      Strange. I’ve just woken up feeling more European than I’ve felt before. If Nicola said we all start driving on the right from tomorrow, I’d be out changing sign posts today and making such a happy fuss about it down at the Border and whistling La Marseillaise. Welcome to Europe.

      Welcome aboard JK Rowley, and all the other new faces who’ve finally had their own wee bolt of lightning to the head. Come on in. The water’s nice isn’t it? Doesn’t matter if you’re millionaire or a pauper, supporting Independence is the right thing to do and when you wear it, it fits like a glove, and for some unfathomable reason it makes the corners of your mouth turn upwards too. Magic.

    31. Kevin Evans says:

      I can’t sleep either Andrew. Am sorry about your dog. My dogs next to me just now and I’d be devastated if I lost my pooch.

      Been keeping a close eye on the EBC. They really dunno what to do do they. It’s like pin the tail on the donkey. The narrative defiantly seems to be “Scotland can’t have a referendum”!!! As I watched reporting Scotland on catch up there wheeling out that bastard Ian wood again to try and tell us not to vote yes. Kezia was disgusting comparing 1.6 million who voted remain to 2 million who voted no. She can’t compare to different election results.

      I have no interest what so ever being part of an England that is now working on a policy that mirrors the 1930’s of Germany. (Godwin’s law doesn’t count in this case). Labour to going to fragment and become the new Tories and the Tories are going to move so far right it’s going to become fascist. There basically discussing this at the moment. I am disgusted at how this vote has turned up. England is going to become embargoed by Europe and sit in Europe like North Korea sits annexed in Asia. I mean there advocating now we can trade with other commonwealth nations. So England is going to walk away from BMW and Audi but import yaks from India. Well done England.

      Scottish BBC has began project fear/misdirection/lies/bullshit already.

    32. Robert Peffers says:

      @T222Deracha says: 25 June, 2016 at 12:00 am:

      “… The Scots are looking for another referendum. Gideon has swallowed his underpants!”,

      Aye! T222Deracha, an thirs no been muckle lood soonds o purrin frae yon Buckinham Pailise airts aither.

    33. Liz Rannoch says:

      My sister and brother-in-law voted No in 2014. They were two of the scared Vow believers. Despite trying to show them what was really happening, they voted No.

      Yesterday morning I texted her with a bit of a dig and said “Happy Independence Day” … “You Yes Yet?”

      Imagine my surprise when I got back: “Ian says he’s going home tonight to join the SNP. It’s a very sad day for democracy in Scotland”.

      I’m still going to work on them to make sure they understand and it’s not just a knee jerk. Two more votes for Yes (?) Once I get them, guess where one of my WBBs is going?!

    34. frogesque says:

      Andrew McLean:

      So sorry about your dog. We have just got a new puppy and the difference in our lives is amazing. Nothing will take away the sadness and Poppy will still be a huge part of our memories.

      Life does move on though, your neighbour will probably feel like shit when he sees you as well. Grief is hard and you are entitled to deal with it in your own way.

      Hang in there, it will get better.

    35. Kevin Evans says:

      Listening to a few leavers on EBC – the penny’s starting to drop for some but still positive – they seem to think it’s going to be OK eventually but difficult to begin with. Lol muppets.

      I am more confident now more than ever that farage is going to be hunted down and hung.

      To add to my enjoyment – USA as told the uk they will join the back of the queue on a trade deal and in July the uk was due to have a turn having a president on the EU commission. I guess that’s not gonna happen now lol.

      Idiots.

    36. Robert Peffers says:

      @Kevin Evans says: 25 June, 2016 at 7:33 am:

      “Scottish BBC has began project fear/misdirection/lies/bullshit already.”

      Nah! Kevin, All the BBC, and not just BBC Scotland, have always been broadcasting project fear. Right from the very first day that they got their charter.

      Why else would any government grant a charter to a government funded independent company when the obvious best way to get broadcasting out to the general public was a free to competition open market?

      Westminster wanted a closed shop, Establishment controlled, propaganda wing and we still have that Government controlled Propaganda wing with us today.

      They were just a bit more subtle with it so that most Scots didn’t notice it. Now BBC Scotland has such a poor quality of frontmen & women and have entered into all out panic mode and they are right there in your face.

      Believe me, Kevin, they are going to get even more desperate in the very near future.

    37. Ken500 says:

      They import everything. Prices will go up. They don’t export anything except banking services. They have now mucked up every manufacturing sector because they want access to EU markets, which will be more difficult.

      They can trade with the rest of the world anyway, if they manufactured anything. They have a massive balance of payments deficit.

      Scotland imports and exports. Before 2008 Scotland imported £40Billion and exported £40Billion. So had no balance of trade deficit.

    38. Orri says:

      Anyone spotted that there’s nothing in article 50 about how a government officially gives notice? Or that it needn’t take the full two years? Or that it can be extended?

      Who knows, if Westminster does look like they intend to take the piss perhaps the EU can issue an official acknowledgment of the referendum result an reluctant recognition that the countdown has begun.

    39. scottieDog says:

      Just hope the scots can emulate the English in their rejection of project fear not that I agreed with their decision.
      We will need to reject the crap coming out of the political and media establishments but also the financial establishments too.

      I know snp are milking feedback from the ratings agencies or brexit but they are part of the neoliberal establishment and will be wheeled out against indyref 2.

    40. geeo says:

      Well….all I’m gonna say is that, if i am paying for this council funded OO walk in falkirk today, then i am away to get my money worth by going to shout stuff at it.

    41. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      File that one under “Advising a man being chased by a tiger to keep running”…

    42. fionan says:

      Andrew, so sorry about your dog, I understand how you are feeling, I am grieving also and the pain keeps me awake. It is even more painful when the death is premature and unexpected. I think if your neighbour is even half-decent he will be suffering pain and guilt also. But your anger is understandable and it is very strong of you to be able to remain civil.

      I didn’t get round to registering to vote this time, couldn’t make up my mind anyway after the way Greece was treated, and also the ‘looming in the shadows’ TTIP. I thought I would be inclined to vote Leave, but I was shocked and horrified to read the result yesterday morning. Goodbye pension, goodbye human rights in the UK.

      It was good to see Nicola take command of the situation and calmly but very firmly point the way ahead for Scotland. Time to order some WWBs.

      It was also comforting to read so many comments here about No voters now changing to YES, but tempered with the memory of many similar comments just before 18/9/14, where it seemed as though so many Nos were changing to YES and raising our hopes and dreams so far only to suffer the dreadful hammer blows throughout that black night.

    43. Breeks says:

      Just an important thought about the First Minister negotiating with European leaders; the Section 50 clause is a two year deadline beyond which EU membership lapses by default, and you are suddenly no longer discussing continued membership, but new membership. However we shouldn’t hang around. I reckon a Brexit 2 referendum is a racing certainty, and it too will have to be fitted from start to finish inside the same clause 50 timescale. We are both under the same starting gun…

      I suggest we move fast and don’t stop for a moment to keep the initiative with Holyrood. Get our YES 2 referendum on the calendar and ring fenced for Scotland. Do it today. Do it now.

    44. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      I wish I could be more surprised by the “1872” in your email address, John.

      Nobody’s proposing a “dictatorship”. If there’s a second referendum you can vote No in that one too, just like you did in the first one. Democracy will still exist. If more people vote No than Yes, Scotland will stay in the UK and be thrown out of Europe.

      And, um, people born in England but living in Scotland DID have a vote in the referendum last time, and will do next time.

      What people are proposing is another exercise of democracy in the light of changed events. It sounds to me like you’re scared of what the democratic outcome might be. The only person threatening a civil war here is you.

    45. Almannysbunnet says:

      @Dr Jim says:1:23 am
      “Now that it’s happening our tellys and newspapers are going to fill up with previously NO voting so called worthies all demanding a piece of the Independence action and offering the FM and the SNP their pearls of wisdom and if they’re not consulted at every opportunity will threaten to go in the huff because, they’ll decide Independence should belong more to them than anybody else”

      Don’t worry Jim, let them try. Let’s use them to our advantage. I’m sure Nicola will listen to them and nod her head sagely, one eye half closed, murmuring, “aha, mmh, I’ve never heard such wise words, ya think?” Tickle their collective tummies, pat them on the head.

      Like most spivs these worthies see which way the wind is blowing and fancy a piece of the action. The people will decide whether they can now be trusted, that’s democracy. I suspect most will disappear into obscurity. We want a brave new Scotland not a carbon copy of the old one.

      Keep in mind that after our independence there will be 59 MP’s heading back from Westminster, most of whom are 5 star representatives of the Scottish people. Some will go back to their previous careers having served Scotland brilliantly. The rest will continue serving our new country. I don’t think they will be easily fooled by the “worthies”. If they are we will keep them right.

      In the meantime the BBC has not gone away. We still have the fight of our life on our hands. The SNPbaad stories have never ceased. The volume goes up and down but it’s always there, in the background, constantly droning on.

    46. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      Because that’s how you make a point. You remind people of exactly what it is they probably don’t want to be.

    47. Gary45% says:

      So HMS Xenophobe has set sail,
      should we tell them they don’t have any life jackets?

    48. Legerwood says:

      Gary45% @ 8.41 am

      No don’t tell them. Let them find out for themselves what it is like to be without lifejackets – just like the refugees they so despise.

    49. Ken500 says:

      Everything that Scotland was told would happen if they vote YES, has happened because they voted NO.

      Out of the EU, prices will go up, credit ratings have fallen, the Oil sector has been destroyed by Westminster, £ has tanked, price of borrowing will go up. Right wing Tories are in Westminster. The EU has already told them to piss off.

      It is illegal for Councils to fund Orange Marches. Unequal, secret organisations, without open access.

    50. robertknight says:

      Doonthetoon @11:02 pm


      Hi peeps.

      “Scotland SCO Sticker Within Euro EU Stars”

      They’re cheaper on eBay…
      ……………..
      BU66ER!!!

      I could’ve saved £5!

      Bloody Amazon…

    51. Robert Peffers says:

      Yeah! News this am. is that the UK has had its Credit Rating downgraded to, “Negative”, by Moody’s. Moody’s said that the result would herald, “a prolonged period of uncertainty”.

      Then the EU is applying pressure upon Westminster to, “speed-up divorce talks”. Brussels says that exit negotiations should start immediately.

      EU head, Jean-Claude Junker, said it was not an amicable divorce”, but it was never a tight love affair anyway.

      This all looks good for the EU to favour any Scottish claims that, “as the United Kingdom is a bi-partite union of Kingdoms”, and has never actually been a unified country, (it has always just acted as if it were), then Scotland, which is both a kingdom & a country, should remain as the member country after the two parts of the bi-partite United Kingdom disunite.

      The thing about the EU is that their basic raison d’être is uniting European countries and thus they have no laws, rules or mechanisms to expel EU citizens from the EU.

      Now I’m going to draw your attention to something that is already being broadcast and printed by the MSM.

      You will notice that they studiously put things arse for elbow by deliberately talking about Scotland, “joining the EU”, and studiously omitting the actual fact that, as both a distinct country, (and an equally sovereign partner kingdom of the United Kingdom), then Scotland is already a fully paid-up member of the EU.

      Thus the legal position is that as there are no EU ways to exclude EU citizens against their will then Scots will remain EU citizens unless the EU makes an effort to exclude citizens and that would destroy the EUs basic raison d’être.

      Note that Nicola is starting talks with the EU right now. All it will take is for the SG to point out that the Treaty of Union formed a kingdom and thus the UK membership is not only a bi-partite union of kingdoms and that UK contains four distinct countries and two of the four do not want to leave.

      They may add that EU laws state that any identifiable European area of peoples has – a right to self-determination.

      In effect there already exists the rules and mechanisms for the EU to decide to allow Scotland & Northern Ireland to remain as EU members because the United Kingdom is legally a bi-partite union of two Kingdoms and contains four distinct and very long established European countries.

      In fact Scotland is one of the oldest, (if not the first), established European countries.

      The other irrefutable truth is that, as the Treaty of Union was only signed by the then only two existing KINGDOMS in the British Isles, then there cannot remain a United Kingdom of any sort when the two signatory Kingdoms divorce each other.

      To put that in context, imagine the laughable claims that when a married couple, (the most common example of a bi-partite union), divorce each other then only one party is no longer married to their former partner but the other is still married to the now unmarried partner.

      That, though, is exactly what the Westminster Establishment is claiming. They claim that as Scotland is, leaving, the marriage of the only two United Kingdom partnership then the remaining partner is still a married couple but Scotland is now a single kingdom.

    52. Katie says:

      Interesting….. As an immigrant in the EU (i not keen on the term ex pat). I applied for another job here in Italy. I was called this morning to say I was unsucessful due to not having the right skill set. Now that may well indeed be the case but I cant help but wonder if this has anything to do with recent events. Especially being informed on Saturday morning, the day after it all kicked off. Now if I want to look for a new job what should I do? Keep looking in Italy or another EU country as a British citizen and potentially wasting my time or come back to Scotland and end up with possibly a really dodgy contract which does no longer adhere to EU regulations? Advice welcome.

    53. Dr Jim says:

      Woke up this morning and went Jeez! England really did it
      An exhibition of racism and an embarrassment in one go, one half of their nation cowering under the duvet with shame at the other half
      Which of course was exactly the same as us in our referendum
      because this EU referendum wasn’t really anything to do with we Jocky people up here in nowhere land
      Sweaty socks the land where people don’t know what they’re doing

      Well England you’re going to have to live with this now, whereas we Ginger Jocks get to have another go and the folk who buggered it up last time are swearing their allegiance in their droves having realised what a shower of plonkers they were the first time

      There will be no other “GO” for good old England now, the nasty furriners they expressed their dislike for have ordered new locks for their doors and got big dogs to make sure England doesn’t get another chance “Non Non Non! Fuck off Sil Vous Plait” “Verboten” “Rouse” and after 40 years of being in the EU the English will still be asking “What are they saying”

      There’ll always be an England and England shall be…Well?

      And our grandchildren will read about it in “books” remember them

    54. robertknight says:

      Sorry Katie, from the employer’s point of view, without knowing what your status as a non-EU Citizen within the EU will be, I too would be reluctant to employ you. I suspect yours will not be the only instance of this job-hunting scenario in the months and years ahead.

      …………….

      An anti-Indy colleague of mine was quick today to harp on about a “hard border” that would exist between an iScotland within the EU and an rUK outwith. Talk of tariffs, increased costs to goods and services and barriers to free movement were all thrown in.

      I suspect those questions will have to wait to see what arrangements are put in place between N.Ireland and the RoI before such fear-mongering can be quashed.

      Prepare to open the biggest can of worms you can possibly imagine…

    55. Jack Murphy says:

      Where’s Gordon Brown when Scotland needs him?

    56. Big Jock says:

      Eu want article 50 triggered immediately. Article 50 is an open ended treaty. Eu can dictate this not the UK.They want the next Pm elected immediately. You see England you don’t dictate anymore!

      Sturgeon will be aware of the urgency as article 50 could start in the next week or two. Indi ref bill should be put through Holyrood immediately it is ready.

    57. Marcia says:

      Where’s Gordon Brown?

      Dreaming up a new vow to replace the old one.

    58. Jim McIntosh says:

      I might be paranoid but can see the following scenario.

      Over the next week or so the economy tanks, the pound tanks, the EU play hardball in every conceivable way and people start to worry that they’ve done the wrong thing. Labour call a vote of no confidence in the government. This is backed by EUrophile Tories and a general election is called.

      Remembering that the referendum is only advisory and must be ratified by the government, both Tory and Labour parties put in their manifesto that they will refuse to ratify the referendum.

      Scotland can’t then use this reason for Indy2, NI stays part of the U.K., and Gibraltar stays the same.

    59. north chiel says:

      re comment from Jim Mcintosh, not so sure as regards your initial comments
      as regards total financial collapse, however I would not rule out possible general election over this as you say. The possible break up of the U.K. is the real issue here , and the EU no doubt are very aware of this. I listened to a discussion this afternoon on BBC news 24 ( dateline London) where speculation of possible ” associate membership” of the EU was discussed ( what ever that might entail?), however any option to ” stymie” Nicola Sturgeon over this ( and simoultaneously include London& Northern Ireland ) in some type of ” partial membership fudge” should not be ruled out , as Westminster will be absolutely ” desperate” to prevent Independence for Scotland over this issue.Make no mistake any Westminster blue or “red Tory” government will do absolutely everything to ” hang on” to Scotland .

    60. yesindyref2 says:

      I’ve got to comment again on this – Rev, you the man.

      I’m noticing a better attitude in postings from Indy supporters already, and it’s what’s needed to persuade people.

      Some of the “people” who post on forums need to work out their priority, is it:

      1). Tell former NO voters what they are and get a self-satisfied smug kick out of it

      or

      2). Get Independence for Scotland.

      Answers on a postcard to:
      The PM of the United Kingdom
      House of Commons
      SW1A 0AA

    61. Alun Hewinson says:

      Those same fascists in George Square… they would have all been Leave voters

      You also voted Leave.

      In my view, that makes you an idiot.

      And you. You live in England. YOU helped England drag Scotland out of the EU against its will.

    62. Rock says:

      Ian Brotherhood,

      “Then why did you bring it up in the first place?”

      To expose your rank hypocrisy.

      An SSP member wanting to dictate what the SNP should or should not do.

      Then like Scottish Labour liars, you tried to change your comment from the “SNP” to “the Scottish government”.

      Anyone can demand what the Scottish government should or should not do.

      But only SNP members can demand what the SNP should or should not do.

      But it is beyond you to simply accept that either you were wrong or your comment was wrongly written.

    63. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers,

      “This all looks good for the EU to favour any Scottish claims that, “as the United Kingdom is a bi-partite union of Kingdoms”, and has never actually been a unified country, (it has always just acted as if it were), then Scotland, which is both a kingdom & a country, should remain as the member country after the two parts of the bi-partite United Kingdom disunite.”

      Your usual nonsense.

      The EU will never have Scotland as a member unless and until Scotland is a fully independent political state with ALL decisions being made in the Scottish parliament.

      As far as the EU is concerned, Scotland is neither a nation nor a country. It is a region of the UK.

    64. Song42 says:

      Ffsakes! Seeing these horrifying and heart breaking images took me right back to George Square apart from making my blood boil! Did it have an Impact? – Most certainly. A very good reminder albeit extremely uncomfortable. The hatred in their voices on the video and of course in the images themselves.
      On a light note… What idiot dares to wear some sort of gear that’s pretending to be a kilt come skirt with trousers on under it! Yeah, I even zoomed in on that one. Had to find something to laugh at amongst this lot. Get it right at least!

      I had to remind myself after a good growling session that at the square that evening started off happy, with songs, dance, face painting of the saltire and pipers. Slowly, ‘they’ started to descend, keeping in the background, across the street like the predator awaiting their prey. The atmosphere was changing and I was becoming fearful so I decided to leave… wasn’t planning to put my head in any Lions mouth!
      Even if we would have won our Independence ‘they’ would still have behaved the way they did, perhaps worse! As if that wasn’t aggressive enough!

      Yes, Very wise… definitely keep running (from the bear!)

    65. tarisgal says:

      I saw a pic on Facebook and unfortunately I don’t know the source, but wondered if it means anything of any significance? (I’ve asked the chat that passed it along if he knows where it originates) Does it mean what it seems to? I’d be really interested if anyone has any ideas as to its meaning: (I can’t put the pic up so I have to write it out – sorry…)

      “The role of the devolved legislatures in implementing the withdrawal agreement

      70. We asked Sir David whether he thought the Scottish parliament would have to give its consent to measures extinguishing the application of EU law in Scotland. He noted that such measures would entail amendment of section 29 of the Scotland Act 1998, which binds the Scottish parliament to act in a manner compatible with EU law, and he therefore believed that the Scottish parliament’s consent would be required. (83) He could envisage certain political advantages being drawn from not giving consent. (84)

      71. We note that the European Communities Act is also entrenched in the devolution settlements of Wales and Northern Ireland. Though we have taken no evidence on this specific point, we have no reasont o believe that the requirement for legislative consent for its repeal would not apply to all the devolved nations.”

      Sorry – that’s all there was. But enough to give cause for some speculation… is this one of those ‘options on the table’ that Nicola spoke of? It’s an interesting comment, whatever…

    66. tarisgal says:

      … Asked ‘the chap’ that passed it along, even! Sorry about that! Lol…

    67. yesindyref2 says:

      @Rock
      Actually you’re wrong, the EU does recognise regions within member states of the EU. Which is why they have this:

      http://cor.europa.eu/en/about/Pages/index.aspx

    68. yesindyref2 says:

      @Rock
      Oh sorry, that’s what you said, the EU thinks of Scotland as a region.

    69. tarisgal says:

      Just to say, found the source of that comment…

      http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201516/ldselect/ldeucom/138/138.pdf

      ‘House of Lords: European Committee – The Process of Withdrawing From the European Union.

      Page 19.

    70. Djmac says:

      Aye, the Anglos will be shitting themselves when their banking sector leaves London for Edinburgh in an Indy Scotland within the EU

    71. Mike says:

      The Tories aren’t acting any differently today than they have done over the last couple of hundred years so my gut is telling me to rage at these “Converts” from 2014 for not seeing what was so obvious and transparent back then as it is now but I agree with the Rev we cant rage at them we must welcome them and push the justifiable feelings of exasperation down and be thankful they finally see and have the will to acknowledge their mistakes.
      It takes courage to admit to mistakes and I have made so many myself so if you cant welcome them then at least leave them be and say nothing at all.



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