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Easy come, easy go

Posted on December 09, 2017 by

Another then-and-now classic.

(Source 1, source 2)

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    155 to “Easy come, easy go”

    1. If the cost of independence really was £117/month, that sounds like a bargain.

      Where are the papers I need to sign up to this deal?

    2. Bill Hume says:

      Eexie Peexie then……apart from the oil money and the hundred other things the UK government (for want of a better word) have stolen from Scotland.

    3. call me dave says:

      Now you see it then you don’t… voila!

      Sleight of hand is no problem to UK Westminster and the MSM.

      It’s magic… Init!

    4. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Nicely spotted, Stu.

      With Brexit, the lying BT chickens of 2014 are all coming home to roost with a vengeance now.

    5. Ruglonian says:

      If I’m not mistaken, the next line is “will you let me go?” and then ensues the battle culminating in a devil getting put aside for somebody – What are you getting at Stu? 😉

    6. Bob Mack says:

      Old age is catching up with me I think. Now what drawer did I put that money in ?

      How lucky are we to have such riches bestowed on us just for being a Scot.

    7. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      The money this costing the country is a disgrace. We have a royal wedding to pay for you know.

      You would think we had a magic money tree. Oh wait we could borrow some cash from our bitter together friends in the DUP.

      Thank goodness we are better together.

    8. Les Wilson says:

      Well for those who were concerned and voted no in Indy1, in case it hurt their income.There is the reason right there to vote Yes in Indy2.

    9. Croompenstein says:

      Funny how they have dropped the ‘UK Dividend’ and replaced it with ‘UK Single Market’.. same sewer same pish..

    10. Scottish Steve says:

      @Croompenstein

      I love how unionists prattle on about the mythical UK single market as if it was an actual, tangible thing that existed like the EU single market. The UK is a unitary state. There is no single market here! Scotland and England are currently one state. But they all think we button up the back like them. Going about how we must stay in the UK because we apparently sell more to England than we do to the EU. So? Will England stop buying Scottish exports out of spite post-indy? That would make them look like a right bunch of fannies, wouldn’t it?

      Also, I should correct myself. Scotland does not export anything to England since, as I said, we’re currently one state. A nation-state cannot export something to itself.

    11. Bobp says:

      Well thats certainly not fake news. IS it, you lying bunch of msm unionist charlatans?.

    12. ScottieDog says:

      Yep £40bn and counting. No word of financial black holes, soaring cost of ‘borrowing’, for the uk in the press. Of course anyone that understands the fiat economy knows that’s a pile of pish anyway.
      The brexit bill could be £100bn and it wouldn’t affect the solvency of the uk. Neoliberal economics should be getting hauled over the coals.

      Of course any ‘debt’ incurred by Scotland is a different matter since, unlike the Govt in WM, we don’t own a bank that issues our currency.

    13. defo says:

      Some fandango !
      “We will not let you go…”

    14. Capella says:

      Imagine. This tedious rubbish is never-ending. Unless we are independent and free to lead normal lives in a functioning country.

    15. Highland Wifie says:

      I’m sure the broad shoulders of the UK will manage to take on our share of the bill when the time comes.
      After all we’re such a burden it’ll be a relief for them to be shot of us. Won’t it?

    16. artyhetty says:

      Ah well, what’s £1400 eh, and is that every year for now into eternity. It’s what Britnat MPs can sometimes forget and claim in expenses by mistake. Oops, goodness, sorry plebs, not!

      Of course the cost is far higher to Scotland due to ‘UK Gov for Scotland’ siphoning away even more revenues from our lucrative resources. Also anyone in the UK who will be put out of work and told to do workfare or starve, might feel a wee bit peeved at losing out in many more ways than one.

      The tories must be rubbing their dirty scheming hands together in glee. That was a close one eh, May. Don’t count your chickens though May and your Tory pals, blue Labour, Scotland will see this Brexit facade for what it is and none but a few Britnats in Scotland can be fooled now.

      We need another list of what they said and what has actually happened, oh yeh, a wee book, but what colour, what colour are massive lies? :-/

    17. Macart says:

      Seems them ‘broad shoulders’ were in fact cheap shoulder pads.

      Who knew?

    18. stewartb says:

      Is this an equivalence tho? Is it not much worse?

      The figure given for Brexit is ONLY the divorce bill divided by the population size. It does not take any account of the additional negatives forecast for the Scottish and UK economies post Brexit.

    19. Macart says:

      @artyhetty

      “what colour are massive lies?”

      Brown.

    20. Donald anderson says:

      So why do they want to hang on to us.

    21. farnorthdavie says:

      GOV.UK story – we have no chance if they think that ‘from 2016 to 2017’ is ‘over the 20 years’!!

    22. stewartb says:

      Donald anderson @ 7:51 pm

      You ask “So why do they want to hang on to us.” Ironically perhaps?

      Its Saturday night and I should be doing other things, but quickly, consider (just) this one out of many reasons which is one of ‘issues’ that I keep returning to.

      Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/503852/OGA_production_projections_-_February_2016.pdf
      ?
      This indicates UK import dependency at 2016 for oil was 36% . It forecasts UK import dependency at 2025 for oil will be 52% and then rising.

      Now assume that Scotland becomes independent and then consider the impact of this on the rUK’s oil import dependency – both immediately and into the future. Quite simply, it rises to almost 100% .

      So whilst the impacts of oil price on tax take and on employment are of course economically important, the ongoing negative impact on Greater England’s balance of payments post Scottish independence, already a major problem, and on Greater England’s energy security, following the loss of oil from Scottish waters is another strategically crucial reason why the union with Scotland is so ‘precious’ to the Westminster government.

    23. TheItalianJob says:

      @stewartb

      And here is an oil analyst on Bloomberg emphasising to two idiot interviewers what the effect of Scotland leaving the U.K. and the effect the lost oil will have on England.

      http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2017-03-28/jim-rogers-asks-if-scotland-pushes-pound-to-0-80-video

    24. `Scottish people will be £1,400 better off as part of the UK analysis shows

      From:HM Treasury, Office of the Secretary of State for Scotland, and The Rt Hon Danny Alexander`

      the ginger rodent got well rewarded for that piece of manufactured fake betrayal,

      he is now a Sir and vice president of Chinese run international bank `Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank` which the UK is a member,

      I think it gives `infrastructure` loans at massive interest to countries that America and World Bank won`t touch,

      Brutish Values en aw that ken.

    25. ian murray says:

      The EU high heedyins are rubbung their hands with glee for so many reasons but one more to think about is the predicted departure of countries from the EU not going to happen now I think.
      Westminster are begging the EU not to transfer all their dealings out of the UK and Westminster are now experiencing the removal van at the country’s door emptying the house and driving away leaving them with a kettle nothing to sit on and oh shit they took the cups as well.
      I think this is just the beginning

    26. Les Wilson says:

      TheItalianJob says:

      Jim Rodgers is not an oil analyst, but he is a billionaire investor. He invests in lots of things including, oil, gold/silver and lots of commodities. He deviates when he sees a good opportunity.
      He certainly knows his stuff. Good to see the clip again, the two reporters? could not handle what he had to say, he quietly made them squirm.

      George Soros made a billion or more shorting the pound some time ago.I guess many will be eyeing that trade again.

      On another financial note, when attending a committee Mark Cairney was questioned about the value of the Scottish GDP he looked down and quietly said ” over a trillion”.

      I had the video clip of that bookmarked, but when searching for it, it was gone! Went to google and cannot now find the clip, it was on youtube and was very short.
      Have never seen or heard anyone pick him up on what he said either.

    27. TheItalianJob says:

      @Les Wilson

      Thanks for the correction. I did note my error but great to have such knowledgeable wingers to keep us all on line.

      Pity regarding the Mark Carney quote and now can’t source but you’re right about no one picking up on these quotes.

    28. Golfnut says:

      @ les Wilson
      Re Carniey answer.
      I’m pretty certain he was asked what Scotlands financial assets were valued at, relunctantly he answered with ” north of a trillion “.

      You would think that was something our media might have thought worthy of passing on to the public. I was sure I had it saved, but can’t find it, will continue looking.

    29. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scottish Steve says: 9 December, 2017 at 6:41 pm:

      “Also, I should correct myself. Scotland does not export anything to England since, as I said, we’re currently one state. A nation-state cannot export something to itself.”

      A good point well made, Scottish Steve. However, it also exposes the fraudulent Westminster accounting systems that always cherry pick the statistics to defraud Scotland and Scots.

      Where Westminster considers it benefits England they account as exports from England produce and product from Scotland that leave the United Kingdom via English ports and airports as being English exports.

      Yet they impose an extra National Electricity Grid connection charge upon generators depending upon their distance from London but at the same time they subsidise the generators in and around London.

      Their figures are used wrongly to suit their propaganda. Oil & gas revenue is accounted as coming from United Kingdom, “Extraregio Territory”, and not as up to 98% from identifiable Scottish Territorial waters. Note the term, “Extraregio”, is defined as meaning, “Not from an identifiable region”, but most certainly does come from a very identifiable region.

      Yet year after year we are presented with the totally fake GERS figures designed to fool the natives of Scotland.

    30. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      RE:”north of a trillion“.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGpayte7KTE

    31. Les Wilson says:

      I do not have the link for this, but it was a sentence that Michel Barnier said. It was in the line of ” we have not yet considered the cost for the EU work on brexit”.

      Not word for word but that was basically what he said.
      If that were to happen, it would be another fortune to pay.

      I guess it would be fair enough, they were forced to do all that work, with the UK requesting Brexit in the first place, and of course it still has a long way to go….

    32. Croompenstein says:

      @Golfnut –

      That would be north of a trillion

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=WGpayte7KTE

      PS I see Stu is on the Frosty Jacks so the next person who mentions Stu saying 2017 would be dull could be in danger from the hammers 🙂

    33. Les Wilson says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Great, thanks Brian, proves I was not imagining it.

    34. TheItalianJob says:

      @Les Wilson
      @Golfnut

      Is this the clip of Mark Carney statement.

      youtube.com/watch?v=WGpayte7KTE&feature=youtu.be

    35. Dr Jim says:

      They screamed and threatened:

      2014 You’ll be OUT of the EU Scotland if you vote YES and you’ll be poverty stricken
      2017 You’ll be IN the EU Scotland if you vote YES and you’ll be poverty stricken

      See that’s it, in out it’ll be our choice not theirs!

      It’s not the lies so much it’s the consistant insult to our intelligence, well to those of us with some that is, but then again these lying pronouncements by a Government in another country who has every desperate reason on earth to hang on to Scotland, are not aimed at us, they’re aimed at their own racist bigoted brainwashed uneducated moron supporters who were brought up to think of nothing else but Rule Britannia and damn the rest of the world

      Let’s all sing Jerusalem, for London shall never surrender

      Eh, what about Scotland….. Shut up sweaties we’re singing

    36. Davie Oga says:

      Scottish assets north of a trillion.
      https://m.youtube.com/watchv=WGpayte7KTE&feature=youtu.be

    37. Fireproofjim says:

      Golfnut
      I had a look on the net and the quote which you are looking for may have been in January 2014, when Mark Carney said that the financial assets of the Royal Bank of Scotland in 2007 were briefly over £1 trillion. He was not in favour of Scotland sharing the pound. He said it would be too restricting for Scotland.
      He was giving a fairly neutral comment on the Inderef.

    38. Fireproofjim says:

      I stand corrected. Well done Davie Oga

    39. call me dave says:

      North of Trillion. I remember that.

      How did it all go wrong?

    40. Les Wilson says:

      TheItalianJob says:

      Thanks,you have to wonder why the SG never made capital out of this, long before now.

      There is also a graph going about, which shows Import and export
      categories across the UK. Again I do not have the link for this, I did save the graph as a JPG, but apparently it is not allowed on here. It shows Scotland is the only home nation that has an export surplus vis imports.

      England is the worst by a long way, imports vastly exceed exports. Scotland would be in a surplus with Independence and these figures prove it. Bear in mind all our exports will not be included either, which would make the figures even better.

    41. Colin55 says:

      2017
      -2016
      —-
      0001

      So what’s this 20 years all about?

    42. Marcia says:

      So we are £1400 better off either way which makes it nil. Figures plucked out of a dodgy calculator.

    43. Bob Mack says:

      I suppose when it is you who compiles the accounts you can say whatever you wish to say without the inconvenience of somebody proving it wrong.

      We are now supposed to believe that Westminster is a more trustworthy and efficient manager of finances than Scotland.

      These past few months have put that nonsense to bed permanently. I would rather take a risk of living in a Scotland who may make bad decisions, than live under the governance of Westminster with the certainty that they would.

    44. birnie says:

      Extract from Radio Times, Saturday 9th December:

      “7.00 David Starkey’s monarchy: How England grew to become Great Britain under the reigns of William, Mary and Anne.”

      Can we look forward to “How Great Britain shrank to become England under the influence of Theresa and Arlene.”?

    45. Cadogan Enright says:

      Got to read the revised UK v’s EU/Ireland settlement today following the DUP jolt to the hapless May on Monday.

      It is even stronger on commitments than the first document to no borders – and the only way this can be done is within a common trade area between Ireland and Britain functioning as an extension of the EU

      If Scotland declared independence in this context – these commitments would still apply and Ireland would have to agree to any English Brit-Nat removal of Scotland from Ireland’s common trade area – most improbable

      An independent Scotland would then be trading freely in the EU cul-de-sac that would be the Irish/British free trade area – and could apply for full EU status at its leisure

    46. Golfnut says:

      @Fireproofing
      Briandoonthetoon posted the video just a few comments up the thread, the question was ‘Scottish financial assets’ if it had just been RBS domicile assets, Scotland should be swimming in cash. Aberdeen Asset Management being one of the biggest in Europe. Anyway it’s good to remind ourselves just how well off Scotland should be.

    47. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Dr Jim at 9.44

      Exactly. I call it the “half-wit factor” in Scottish politics but some folk don’t like me saying so.
      But it is a fact the whole Better Together campaign was aimed unerringly at the stupid and the uninformed.

      We have to deal with sections of the population beyond reason. There are those who have an emotional attachment to the union which is their right. We have those who have a vested interest in the continuance of the union and who will always vote in self interest. Some of them will move when they feel their self interest is better saved by independence.

      Our biggest challenge however is those who believe stupid distortions and insults about Scotland being too small and too stupid and too poor. They are moved, not by accusing them of being stupid, but by establishing that much of what they believe is lies and untrue. This happens when figures or agencies they can relate to and understand and respect exposes the lies. They are not usually moved by SNP politicians on the “well they would say that wouldn’t they” basis.

      We have to sharpen up how we talk to the non politically aware or motivated section of our population.

    48. Les Wilson says:

      Golfnut says:

      If it were not for the fact we are being daily robbed, in biblical proportions we would be very rich already!

    49. Croompenstein says:

      Stu said 2017 would be boring and pish 🙂 😀

    50. Robert Peffers says:

      @Macart says: 9 December, 2017 at 7:46 pm:

      “Brown.”

      Cough! That’s a right load of shit, Macart!

      I’ll get my coat.

    51. Robert Peffers says:

      @TheItalianJob says: 9 December, 2017 at 8:27 pm:

      “And here is an oil analyst on Bloomberg emphasising to two idiot interviewers what the effect of Scotland leaving the U.K. and the effect the lost oil will have on England.”

      http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2017-03-28/jim-rogers-asks-if-scotland-pushes-pound-to-0-80-video

      The, (for want of a better description), “Lady”, in red went immediately into flannel mode. Red flannel mode.

    52. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Check out this link @Les Wilson says at 9:52 pm

      “Scotland is the only home nation that has an export surplus vis imports.”

      https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/RTS/Pages/default.aspx

      And for 2016:

      http://archive.is/feYUG

      Scotland has a regular trade surplus of £5 Billion (this is without Oil and Gas as “United Kingdom figures include trade that cannot be allocated to a region”).

    53. Capella says:

      @ Croompenstein – you’re for the hammers now. Looking forward to the 2018 prediction. 🙂

    54. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Also graphs available via ONS:

      https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/bulletins/uktrade/october2017

      “UK trade: October 2017 – Total value of UK imports and exports of goods together with indices of volume and price, including an early monthly estimate of the value of trade in services.”

    55. Macart says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Seems about right. 😀

    56. Jock McDonnell says:

      @Dr Jim

      Well said, cut through the crap.

    57. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Robert Peffers link no worky

    58. Robert Peffers says:

      @Jockanese Wind Talker says: 9 December, 2017 at 10:57 pm:

      “Check out this link @Les Wilson says at 9:52 pm
      “Scotland is the only home nation that has an export surplus vis imports.”
      https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/RTS/Pages/default.aspx
      And for 2016:
      http://archive.is/feYUG
      Scotland has a regular trade surplus of £5 Billion (this is without Oil and Gas as “United Kingdom figures include trade that cannot be allocated to a region”).”

      Indeed, Jockanese Wind Talker. I’ve been telling that fact since ever I began commenting on wings. The way I put it goes :-

      Scotland is a net exporter of food, fuel and power while the rest of the UK are net importers of all three.

      I have also always made the point that the Scottish Per Capita GDP is usually higher than that of the United Kingdom of with Scotland is part and I explain that per capita GDP is the total revenue raised by any particular area divided by the population of that area.

      I occasionally also point out that if anyone is quoting per capita GDP then if they do not use equivalent areas then the figures cannot be a true comparison. i.e. you can compare a country with a country but it is misleading to compare a country, (like Scotland), with a regional area of England/UK as Scotland is a country and also a kingdom but no other UK individual country is a separate kingdom.

      Yet we regularly have the UK per capita GDP compared to that of Scotland or often they relegate both the Kingdom and country of Scotland in such comparisons as if Scotland were a region of England or the Kingdom of England, (rest of the UK).

      Even when they use such figures it is a scam because the creative accountancy used.

    59. TheItalianJob says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Correct Robert.

      She didn’t know how to respond. Totally lost her argument. Although she didn’t have one in the first place. Kept turning to her colleague for help but she was just as incompetent as the “lady” in red.

      Both clueless about anything concerning Scotland’s economic influence on the U.K.

    60. Robert Peffers says:

      RE that clip of Cairny at the commons committee.

      This is the YouTube clip of the complete Committee meeting:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfqukMtQF_c

      The first 1.5 minutes has the sound not operating as it is before the meeting started – the clip is hours long.

    61. Meg merrilees says:

      Davie Oga @9.45

      Your link has vanished – the page is unavailable!!!Wonder when that happened?

    62. mike cassidy says:

      Its well past the watershed.

      So I think its okay to draw attention to Theresa May having a Frosty Jack’s moment!

      http://archive.is/kEr9S

    63. heedtracker says:

      We Scots really are just simple rubes, to be fleeced. Welcome to the UKOK single market, rubes.

    64. Dr Jim says:

      How to spot a Unionist in a crowd :

      When in a group, any group anywhere anytime somebody might make an innocent mention of something Scottish and BOOM! the Unionist inmmediately pipes up really sudden and anxious something like “Don’t talk aboot politics for God sake it always starts an argument ah jist take care o masel it’s the best way an leave politics oot, don’t waant tae know”

      From that moment it’s best you make your excuses and run for it because the rumbling contained pressure inside you could kill you if you’re of a certain age
      You have checked the hands and yes it’s there that thing you knew probably would be and wrongly spelled is the giveaway accompanied sometimes by the class or club ring which confirms all that you dreaded but suspected on first glance but were prepared to overlook because they were a friend of a friend and you wanted to be polite although from the start your every instinct was oh God

      YOON!!

      From that moment the “YOON” adopts a defensive posture suspecting everybody of being “The Scum” that’s us by the way, and he too wants to go but knows in his heart that if he does “The Scum” will think they’ve won, so he stays defending his area like a ready to anger badly trained dog not knowing who to growl at or bite

      Yes, the British state created that in our country to keep the people The Disunited Kingdom just like they did throughout their entire Empire
      Nearly all of that empire is gone now because people educated themselves and threw them out of their countries

      Let’s throw them out of ours and celebrate Scotlands Independence day just the same as the rest of the formerly known British empire countries do now
      I wont list them, even Yoons must have enough fingers and toes between around 6 or 7 of them to count that number on

    65. Still Positive says:

      Well said Dr Jim @ 12.51

      I have waited 50 years for Scottish Independence. It cannae come soon enough.

    66. Scottish Steve says:

      @Robert Peffers

      I am amazed how so many Scots have put up with this BS for so long. After 800 years the Irish finally got rid of Westminster rule. Scotland has been under that same rule for less than half of that time, yet many here seem far more content with it. Are Scots so easily cajoled and domesticated? It seems the Irish have more of a backbone than we do.

    67. Dr Jim says:

      So it’s a good morning from me and a good morning from John Cleese in Edinburgh on SKY news, and well good old John Cleese blames rough sleeping and homelessness on a lack of policy in *limiting childbirth* and the Catholic Church

      So good old John Cleese opens his mouth and once again pours out offensive drivel on wanting a policy for the few and not the many in that only the folk with money should have kids so no need for more housing then eh

      One wonders how on earth this man became successful and who are his friends if any and are they allowed to breed under good old John Cleese programme for the world order

      Maybe he doesn’t know that Scotland is about 32 thousand square miles of land with only 5.4 million people in it so most of it’s empty and if it wasn’t for his elitist Tory pals both blue and red we’d have a hell of a lot more people and homes instead of his chums coming up once a year to shoot burdys and drain Scotlands economy by not allowing it to grow

      Arse of a man, you could stick another million people in Scotland and nobody would hardly notice they were there

    68. Breeks says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      9 December, 2017 at 10:08 pm
      Dr Jim at 9.44

      Exactly. I call it the “half-wit factor” in Scottish politics but some folk don’t like me saying so……

      …Our biggest challenge however is those who believe stupid distortions and insults about Scotland being too small and too stupid and too poor. They are moved, not by accusing them of being stupid, but by establishing that much of what they believe is lies and untrue. This happens when figures or agencies they can relate to and understand and respect exposes the lies. They are not usually moved by SNP politicians on the “well they would say that wouldn’t they” basis.

      We have to sharpen up how we talk to the non politically aware or motivated section of our population….”

      I agree with that observation Dave, but I would maybe risk splitting hairs between belief and misguided perspective. Many people are of one single state of mind not necessarily because they believe it, but because they have no wider perspective to appreciate alternative perceptions.

      Look at European Trade Deals for example. All the UK rhetoric about negotiating a Free Trade Agreement with Europe isn’t just wishful thinking. It is wishful thinking with a dangerous lack of perspective and reality. The UK stumbles from crisis to crisis putting its faith in Europe being reasonable, and the archaic philosophy that money talks. If we dangle big enough carrots to the German car makers, they will oblige their politicians to agree an EU Trade Deal.

      It seems clear at the top level of UK government there is a fundamental lack of appreciation for what the EU is and how it actually functions, and for the life of me, I’m not sure I can recall a time when the EU ever was understood by the British. Antithesis towards the EU is a British phenomenon. I saw a chart a while ago declaring 70%+ of EU citizens are happy being EU citizens. It is only the British who will themselves to believe the EU is on the point of collapse.

      The EU doesn’t negotiate Trade Deals by bespoke concessions and tailored arrangement like the UK seems to believe. The EU dictates that all EU Trade respects the indivisible Four Freedoms and that protocols and standards are legislated by the EU Court of Justice. There is no opportunity or indeed occasion to make concessions. Once your Non-EU country acknowledges and accepts those ground rules, and demonstrates it can meet EU standards and respect the jurisdiction of the EUCJ, then, and only then, you can BEGIN to talk about a Trade Agreement. The UK is walking away from this, and wants a Trade Deal?…. emm…

      Why is it, after 40 years of EU Membership, a numbingly narrow minded Brexit referendum, and month after month of ill-informed conjecture, it is only now that some parts of the British establishment are finally waking up to what the EU actually is? Throughout its entire EEC / EU Membership, the United Kingdom has had its head stuck up its own arse, and blamed Europe for the funny smell.

      Sadly, I feel the same about Scottish Independence. Both YES campaigns and Better Together campaigns, “sheparatism” and unionism, are all matters of heated conjecture but neither of them are truly getting to grips with what Scottish Sovereign Independence actually means.

      We Scots seem to be so collectively “institutionalised” by the Union that we have difficulty getting our heads around the concept of sovereignty. We casually tolerate the paradox of believing we Scots are sovereign by birthright, but live in a Union where we are not sovereign but beneath Westminster. We live on both sides of the looking glass.

      The United Kingdom is quite literally Lewis Carroll’s Wonderland, where the worlds on either side of the looking glass, the real world and the fantasy world, both exist, and the population can only make sense of it all by suspending their deductive reasoning. “When we don’t understand something, we defer to the BBC to tell us what to think”. It is institutionalism.

      I hope Brexit in the UK is a gentle Westerly breeze which blows away the fog of UK delusion and we finally recognise the great leviathan of the European Union edifice right on our doorstep; the mighty international collective which we were fully part of, but where we behaved like a bunch of dicks. We were stupid enough to leave, and now we’re stupid enough to think they’ll want anything to do with us. Very soon, we’re going to be stupid enough to expect them to let us back in again.

      Scotland, for some of us, is just the same. We have sovereign Independence right there, in our grasp, the magic Constitutional “Get out of Jail Free” card which is there for the taking. Please, please, please, can this startling awareness of the Brexit reality transpose itself onto the same grasp of reality about Scottish Independence.

      Do we stay with the UK, and a life of subjugation, proxy xenophobia, bestail austerity, decay and underachievement all made tolerable by BBC hallucinogenics? Or do we brace ourselves for the scary and challenging responsibility of becoming the independent Nation of Scotland?

      With luck, because it seems reason won’t carry us, with luck, we might still hold on to the EU leviathan and save ourselves.

    69. Giving Goose says:

      This may have been posted previously.
      It’s a forum and group site for EU citizens resident in the UK.

      https://www.the3million.org.uk

    70. Les Wilson says:

      Breeks

      “I saw a chart a while ago declaring 70%+ of EU citizens are happy being EU citizens. It is only the British who will themselves to believe the EU is on the point of collapse”

      That may or may not be true, but there are other forces at work here.I read a lot of financial stuff, a lot of it from America.

      There is a never ending volume of ” Europe is collapsing, the smart money will be transferred out to America as it continues they say.

      Yes, America seems to be encouraging European collapse and they hope to clean up from it,in many ways. Beneficial trade deals, assets bought cheaply. etc etc.

      This is a momentum situation where a European collapse would hugely benefit the US. Something we should bear in mind and be watchful of as the UK is a main target. The elites in the UK will have shares in the American companies who will benefit most. Brexit suits them all quite well.

    71. Les Wilson says:

      Dr Jim says:
      Saw John Cleese having an anti Scottish rant around the last ref.
      He actually is an evil old man who makes obnoxious rants and has nasty views.
      Like you I wondered how he ever reached his celebrity status.
      I suppose all that is down to the BBC.

    72. Ken500 says:

      Scotland should not have to pay a penny for this fiasco. Scotland voted to remain. Once again Scotland paying for Westminster lunatic mistakes.

      The incompetent, ignorant, psycho bastard Tories. How anyone can vote for them in Scotland after Thatcher. Some auld screwed up gits who can’t even uses a computer, never mind count or read a balance sheet. Greedy millionaires robbing the public purse. Labour are no better just colluding. Lying sychophants. Frank Field ‘crocodile tears’ about universal credit. He supported it and caps on incomes. Increasing poverty. Complaining about the migration crisis they have caused. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion,

      The Eurozone is not in debt. They have to keep a ration to debt. The US/UK have the highest debt. ratio. The UK is one the most unequal countries in the world. With poverty rates increasing under the Tories and life expectancy flat lining. Although it is still those in poverty that die younger. Most of the EU countries are happier more equal and have better lifestyles. The EU helps the poorer ones by development grants and invests in renewable projects etc. Making Europe more equal with better social Laws. It is the US/UK that are destroying the world with illegal wars etc. Destabilising people. 4 million in Syria. More in Iraq etc. Killing and maiming vulnerable people. The US spends half its revenues on the military. While people starve and die.

      Scotland can vote for Independebce. Stop this farce.

    73. Breeks says:

      Les Wilson says:
      10 December, 2017 at 9:10 am.

      Yes, America seems to be encouraging European collapse and they hope to clean up from it,in many ways. Beneficial trade deals, assets bought cheaply. etc etc.

      I agree Les. What’s more, considering your own sentence above, is the American attitude towards Europe fundamentally any different from the prevailing US attitude towards the Middle East?

      For me, it’s simple. I want Scotland to be part of the European project, give it a good chance of success, and see how that works for Scotland before I make any judgements heavily influenced by the BBC, UK xenophobia, and US/UK militarist solutions to problems. Personally, I think Scotland will go from strength to strength, and I don’t think we’ll ever look back.

      I very much appreciate Rev Stu’s twist on the argument. Even if you want out of Europe, would you want to exist Europe on the UK’s ticket of stupidity and xenophobia? I hope that idea resonates with Eurosceptics and gives them food for thought, but I would also like to see how Euroscepticism endures when it is no longer shored up by BBC propaganda.

    74. Robert Peffers says:

      @ronnie anderson says: 9 December, 2017 at 11:28 pm:

      “@ Robert Peffers link no worky.

      Which link, Ronnie?

    75. Willie says:

      The Brexit shambles goes on unabated as economic growth tumbles to the lowest in the EU, as living standards decline, and austerity continues all the while the super rich get richer.

      And now a £39,000,000,000 bill that many are saying will be £100,000,000,000 to leave the EU.

      I wonder how many hospitals will have to be closed to pay for that.

      The future looks like an absolute disaster in the making. It will destroy us economically and socially and we have no one to blame but ourselves. Don’t get sick folks, don’t become unemployed and try not to become a pensioner.

    76. Les Wilson says:

      Breeks says:

      America has the greatest amount of TOTAL debt than has ever been known. It is so big when taking everything in, that it is impossible to pay back, and at some point it will come home to roost and the whole fiat corrupt money system will collapse.

      So there is consequences for all their QE and manipulations. Every fiat currency has collapsed over time. When it happens, and it will, to America. The worlds system will have the biggest collapse ever.

      It takes no genius to see that America will do anything for money, It is the American way on stilts. We should all worry about this as it will effect us all. There is the possibility of civil war in the US also. Not much if anything said about it over here, but some knowledgeable commentators over there say the nation has never been this divided since the civil war.

      In regards to Brexit, to help America and gain kudos points, and of course make themselves a ton of money, may be the real reason the elites (lots do not stay here) are pushing Brexit so much.

      They care nothing for anyone else, they do not care what happens here, they will have their escape routes in place and still be able to influence and buy up UK assets cheap from anywhere in the world.

    77. TheItalianJob says:

      @Breeks at 9.55 am

      “Personally, I think Scotland will go from strength to strength, and I don’t think we will ever look back”

      Totally agree with your statement above. I know that within 5 years of our Independence the vast majority of Scots and EU residents in Scotland will wonder why we doubted our belief in our own destiny as an Independent country in Europe.

    78. Hamish100 says:

      I see Marr had the full bbc biased view on brexit lined up against Ian Blackford. How often have we seen Marr use the technique of prepared tv extracts to try and make a particular point? Rarely if at all.

      Leaving the EU meant leaving EFTA ETCETERA. Really? I am sure it wasn’t on the ballot paper.

      Just as folk said Voting No meant remaining in the EU.

      How did that go? Strangely no tv extracts from BBC londonium on this. Ian kept his cool and was fine. Marr was already prepared as an attack dog but was gumsy. Later he interviewed the Minister for Northern Ireland. Totally different in his approach.

      BBC Neutral? my erse.

    79. Iain mhor says:

      I don’t think the USA are encouraging a European collapse.
      Encouraging the far right yes, but not a collapse.
      The EU is if anything a construct of the US and was always the bulwark against the “Reds”. Their “Special relationship” was with Germany and remains so. How many US bases and personnel are in Germany?
      At last estimate 22% of US troops were based in Europe. They have pushed their interests further into Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania etc. and Europe’s direct Eastern borders. Defence spending as GDP has surged from millions to billions in those countries, again US influence. Anyone remember that prick Obama praising plucky Estonia’s Independence and telling us to fuck off, yes? – The US led Nato troops and tanks pushing through Europe recently?

      It’s a bit of a nightmare for them, as Europe “reeks of socialism” but they have to have it. So a Europe pushed to the right makes them a little more comfortable. The rise of ‘McArthyism’ and sales of War materiel is good for business naturally. Of course that is what actually endangers Europe, but they’re not the brightest when it comes to foreign policy. They do want a strong Europe, but one that dances to their tune. If they are endangering the structure of Europe it’s by accident rather than design in my opinion.

    80. Les Wilson says:

      Reading these links by Nana, it seems the UK are attempting to pull the wool over the EU’s eyes. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. Every word that came from the UK has to be checked and double checked, dealing with them count your fingers afterwards.

      I will reiterate what I said earlier, we are going to have a hard brexit, all this is a UK smokescreen they picked their wording carefully so everything can be turned around and we will be out.
      It may happen quicker than we think, but it will be at the best point for the brexiteers, you can count on that.

    81. Dan Huil says:

      Lies, deceit and an utter utter mess. That is the shit which Westminster delivers to Scotland. They get away with such britnat shit because of the shitty britnat media.

      For god’s sake! For Scotland’s sake! For all our sakes, we must get out of this shit-infected union with England! Now!

    82. heedtracker says:

      Great links Nana! well depressing as hell. Our civil rights are now going to be in the hands of assorted tory turds like Gove, Mogg, IDS, and on it goes. Still at the very least their beeb gimp network will tell us all how lucky we are to be British.

      See Gove’s tripped up Teresa again, with his “you know, you can always change or scrap Teresa’s Brexit deal at the ballot box.” You lucky Brits.

      19 hours ago – Michael Gove has said the British people could have their say on a Brexit deal with the EU via a general election. Writing in the Daily Telegraph, Mr Gove said: “The British people will be in control. If the British people dislike the agreement that we have negotiated with the EU …”

      Good olde teamGB, the great tory sneaky shit’s, sneaky shit paradise.

    83. Les Wilson says:

      Iain mhor says:

      I understand well what you said, I follow these things to, when the Berlin wall came down the Russians said, not an inch further.
      Well, we can see how the US has adhered to that. They are pushing Russia into a corner and clearly provoking them, you have to as yourself why.
      They are on the verge of nuclear war in other places to, they are deliberately causing tensions. World war 3, may not be far away.

      This is what failing states do and have done since time immemorial. Europe is a pawn in these games,as is NATO, fortress America is emerging and they will care only for things that suit their interests. So you think they will not sacrifice Europe to lesser, but not eliminate the threat to the US. Then I think you are wrong.

      From a financial view, yes they are spending billions on defense, but while all their people except their elites are suffering badly, discontent is growing quickly.

      America needs more money, needs more worthwhile assets, the UK gives the opportunity for them to have us tied to trade deals that will overwhelmingly be in their favour. They will infiltrate all our industries for profit, NHS, Financial Groups, energy companies, they will take all they can, because they need it. No holds barred I am afraid.

    84. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 10 December, 2017 at 8:26 am:

      ” … for the life of me, I’m not sure I can recall a time when the EU ever was understood by the British.”

      Ah! There it is – the usual great big flaw in the, “Breeks”, mantra. The usual misuse of the terms, “British”, and, “UK/United Kingdom”.

      The United Kingdom does not encompass all of Britain. While all things UK/United Kingdom are indeed, “British”, the United Kingdom is, “British”, but not, “The British”. The non-United Kingdom parts of the British Isles are also British.

      There is thus no such thing as, “The British”, unless they are being referred to as a geographic only whole. This has been the basis of the Westminster Establishment’s false propaganda since long before there even was a so called United Kingdom or even a so called Union of the Crowns.

      Thus all, and every, one of your wrong references to, “The British”, are misconceptions and only serve to confuse the issues you are trying to clarify.

      ” … Antithesis towards the EU is a British phenomenon.”.

      There it is again. What parts of a diverse Britain are you referring to in that statement?

      ” … It is only the British who will themselves to believe the EU is on the point of collapse.”

      Again?

      ” … The EU doesn’t negotiate Trade Deals by bespoke concessions and tailored arrangement like the UK seems to believe.”, Here is another fudge – what do you class as, “The UK in that statement? Do you mean the Westminster government or the devolved parliament of Northern Ireland or perhaps the Holyrood parliament or what exactly?

      ” … The UK is walking away from this, and wants a Trade Deal?…. emm…”

      The UK/United Kingdom means just what in that statement? Factually the UK is not walking away from anything – the Westminster Establishment may indeed be attempting to make the United Kingdom walk away but the cross party Scottish Parliament has voted otherwise. As also have other parts of the so called United Kingdom. Such sweeping generalisations make your arguments a farce.

      ” … Why is it, after 40 years of EU Membership, a numbingly narrow minded Brexit referendum, and month after month of ill-informed conjecture, it is only now that some parts of the British establishment are finally waking up to what the EU actually is?”

      Whoa! There! What do you think is this imaginary, “British Establishment”? There is no such entity. No single legislative body in the entire British Isles legally represents all of Britain. “A”, British government does not exist.

      There are eight distinct countries in Britain, three of them comprise the Kingdom of England. One of them, (Scotland), is also a kingdom in its own right and the only two legally equally sovereign Kingdoms form a bipartite United Kingdom that thus contains four individual countries but the United Kingdom is NOT a country – it plainly is, as it describes itself, a bipartite kingdom.

      Beside this four country/two kingdom United Kingdom there are another four, non-UK, countries that comprise this Britain that you seem so confused about.

      These four non-United Kingdom parts of Britain are The Republic of Ireland, The two Channel Island Bailiwicks and the Isle of Man. The latter three are Crown, (Not Westminster Parliament), dependencies.

      In short your arguments are totally confused and your statements thus only serve to further confuse others.

    85. heedtracker says:

      I will reiterate what I said earlier, we are going to have a hard brexit, all this is a UK smokescreen they picked their wording carefully so everything can be turned around and we will be out.
      It may happen quicker than we think, but it will be at the best point for the brexiteers, you can count on that.”

      I think its all going to be one giant tory fudge, squeezed out, dragged out for decades. NI deal is just the start.

      Selling it all as tory genius, is going to be one of the BBC’s greatest propaganda triumphs too, up there with their defeat of Scottish independence.

      All that will really happen is that we the people will lose our EU passport and work rights, sick, parenting, holiday pay, time off etc will get squeezed and scrapped wherever a tory turd can do it.

      But this is what Leave dopes wanted, take back control from the EU rotters.

    86. Bob Mack says:

      Interesting discussion on America in Europe. It is always worthwhile remembering that America relies on the Industrial/ military establishment to provide most of its income.

      Two major world wars lifted America out of recession through lend lease arrangements with allies and from subsequent reparations from defeated enemies. A bit like the recent oil thefts front Libya and Iraq.

      A major European conflict is to America, a business opportunity rather than a disaster.

    87. Daisy Walker says:

      Nana, thanks for the links. Very informative.

      A few thoughts.

      Friday’s deal is not workable, not when you try and see it working in the round,

      One of the main drivers for Brexit was to allow the very rich to carve up UK public services, especially the NHS. No wonder dark moneys from the US appear involved.

      I think its becoming increasingly clear that just as important for them – and the main driver to coming out of the ECJ ‘take back control of our own laws’ – is the EU drive to sort out the Tax Dodgers. This would undo 20 years of legislation to allow for their daylight robbery, and it is worth trillions. If anyone hasn’t seen the film The Spiders Web its worth seeing.

      And lastly, they really can’t afford to lose Scotland. We’re the cash cow.

      I wonder if it would be in the public interest for MP’s to have to declare if they currently have off shore tax dodging accounts – if they do, there is potentially a clear conflict of interest. I wonder if there is some way of forcing this issue in the House of Commons. Not that it would get reported.

      Nothing about Brexit makes any kind of economic sense, until you consider the above, and the total selfishness of the Brexiteers.

    88. Clydebuilt says:

      The target of all the lies is always the SNP. Rubbishing their record on Government. When the opposite is the truth. On just about every measure our Scottish Government is doing much better than other parts of the U.K.

      The SNP have always said they have to demonstrate competence in Government. Our Unionist media are working to make people think they are incompetent.

      Instead of seeing our parliamentary vehicle to independence being diminished daily

      The YES movement need to counter the lies and set the record straight.

      Irrespective of how soon Indyref2 is we need a national campaign to counter the medias lies. Many benefits will flow from this.

    89. ronnie anderson says:

      http://www.facebook.com/james.dwyer.1029/posts/1513063822076009

      Scottish Gov need to call this planned development i .

    90. Lies,propaganda and misinformation by the controversial BBC is the only thing stopping the dam on Independence from busting through,

      the controversial BBC hold the power over the soft NO`s,

      the other media speak for the loony left and the far right which both being two cheeks of the same arse we don`t need and will never get,

      the controversial BBC need to be attacked by SNP for every lie,fake news, biased opinion,pro union output from them,

      forget the rest,waste of effort and time.

    91. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      We need also to challenge the SNP’s flawed assumption that governing Scotland well will bring us to independence.

      The SNP Government HAS to govern well,but it will not ever get full credit for that.

      We win independence by campaigning for independence and portraying the vision of a better country that will become possible when we get there.

      To do so we have to understand that getting mired in complicated arguments about economy, currency, social provision based on our present constitutional situation is exactly what our opponents want us to do.

    92. Sinky says:

      Typical BBC kid gloves treatment of Scots Tories on Radio 5 Pinear’s Politics when Scots Tory MP guest was asked to comment on how wonderful Ruth Davidson was rather than why despite the hype the Tories have fallen to third place in latest polls in Scotland?

    93. Bobp says:

      Scottish Steve 2.07am.”it seems the irish have more of a backbone than we do”.You got that right in one Steve, the Irish dont do a**elicking and forelock tugging.

    94. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Aye it is all a Tory Boy game @heedtracker says at 11:11 am

      “Michael Gove has said the British people could have their say on a Brexit deal with the EU via a general election. Writing in the Daily Telegraph, Mr Gove said: “The British people will be in control. If the British people dislike the agreement that we have negotiated with the EU …”

      Like David Davis saying this morning that May’s Triumphant Deal of Friday isn’t binding:

      http://archive.is/MCJt6

      Remember that:

      The next general election in the United Kingdom is scheduled to be held on 5 May 2022 under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011.

      But the next Scottish Parliament election is due to be held on Thursday 6 May 2021.

      So Holyrood 1st then UK GE.

      The BritNats are now in full rear-guard action to delay/defeat Scottish Independence before they leave the EU and can ride roughshod over the Devolution Settlement with impunity.

      Anyone who thinks the Eurosceptic Tory Brexiteers will allow the UK Electorate to overturn the EU Referendum Result has a head that buttons up the back.

      These f*ckers will be fighting to the last man/woman to prevent England becoming a 3rd World Economy with a massive unserviceable national debt when they are able to plunder Scotland’s resources.

    95. heedtracker says:

      Tories have fallen to third place in latest polls in Scotland?

      Bobp says:
      10 December, 2017 at 12:19 pm
      Scottish Steve 2.07am.”it seems the irish have more of a backbone than we do”.You got that right in one Steve, the Irish dont do a**elicking and forelock tugging.

      Arise Sir Bob, of Boom Town Ratshire.

      Tongue wedged in deep and hard too, like a true teen spirit rebel. And vote NO or else Scots baiter Sir Bob, kept his Irish/EU passport too.

      How frightfully rebellious.

    96. heedtracker says:

      These f*ckers will be fighting to the last man/woman to prevent England becoming a 3rd World Economy with a massive unserviceable national debt when they are able to plunder Scotland’s resources.”

      Tory creeps are on the road to UKOK hell. If they dont get the UK back to their core vote pre EU fantasy state, a post war 50’s UK, they’re going to lose big next GE.

      Yet Brexit means every last corp that can, is going to up sticks and flit to the EU mainland. If they’re not doing it now, they’re planning it.

      Catastrofuck’s on this scale are great opportunities for Govian chancers, carpetbaggers and spivs though.

      Just get used to having a lot less money in your pockets, paying much higher tax, working much longer hours for it, to buy much more expensive everything, food, fuel, clothes, stuff. Even the comfortably well off down those leafy Scottish drives might start squeaking.

      This the bottom line, for the rest of our Rule Britfackintannia lives.

    97. Les Wilson says:

      Bob Mack says:

      You are right, that is where we are.

    98. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Me @ at 12:30 pm Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “when they are UNABLE to plunder Scotland’s resources.”

    99. Dr Jim says:

      Who are the British:

      Well it’s certainly not me, and not because I do or don’t want to be, that’s immaterial, because I live in Scotland and time after time my vote and my position has never been respected as a so called British citizen by the “British” in the big land of the real “British” which is England

      Those who claim to be British and proud haven’t seemed to have clocked on to the fact that if they live in Scotland like me they’re not considered either, so why do the British and proud folk still cling to the idea or hope that one day they might be as equal in status as the actual British who live in England where votes actually count at a majority of about 11 to one against Scotland every single time anything is ever voted on

      Did the British and proud folk not get the memo from the ruling country that they’re only British when it comes to taking stuff from them and not giving anything back because they live in the land of the Scottish underclass and that renders all opinion invalid to the “British” in England where votes actually do count

      Why don’t people just call themselves English and proud I can respect that because that’s an actual country but this claim to be “British” is like comparing yourself to Bitcoin
      the floating invisible currency that nobody knows how to access because it’s really just a big fabrication that means nothing to ordinary people and you’ll never benefit from it but you’re still told it exists and is important

      Honest!

    100. John says:

      What we need is a ‘Wee Red White and Blue Book Of Bullshit’.

    101. Robert Peffers says:

      @Clydebuilt says: 10 December, 2017 at 11:33 am:

      “The YES movement need to counter the lies and set the record straight. Irrespective of how soon Indyref2 is we need a national campaign to counter the medias lies. Many benefits will flow from this.”

      Thing is, Clydebuilt, that the SG, SNP and YES movement have done the best they can in the past to do just that but you cannot force the,non-interested in politics, general public to listen, read and view political content – even if the indy movement could get such content into the Westminster Establishment’s controlled and compliant media outlets in the first place.

      Yesterday I posted a bunch of links to actual parliamentary proceedings where the SG and Westminster SNP contingent were very active in rubbishing the Establishment’s totally anti-Scottish actions. None of this actual parliamentary SNP great hard work made it onto the Mainstream media.

      To the extent that the very best of the SNP Westminster contingent were defeated in the last General Election. Such as Alex Salmond and Angus Robertson were defeated by the combined actions of the unionist parties, the Westminster controlled media and the hidden money of the shadowy figures of wealthy extreme right wing, (mainly), non-UK resident financial interests.

      The SNP are doing their job well in both parliaments but their efforts go unreported, misreported or downright lied about. The foot soldiers of the SNP and larger YES movement worked very, very hard but, like taking horses to water, you can direct them to the true news but you cannot make them read, hear or view it. Especially, though, you cannot make them believe it.

      Thing is, Clydebuilt, we did counter the lies and did set the record straight but the intended audiences just did not even want to receive the message much less absorb or believe the so very obvious lessons of the facts.

      I’ve seen this effect all my life. When a party political item comes on there is a Scotland wide major switch of channels, radio stations and websites.

      The general public would rather watch, listen or read about the totally mind numbing, “Great British dance off”, than get the truth from the people they elected to represent them.

      Not to mention the simple fact that many of the electorate are still of the beliefs they were led to believe in when they were in their teens and believed that there were actual differences between the unionist political parties.

      Imagine a mind-set that still thinks the Labour Party in Scotland ever actually ever represented the so called working class. Many of whom have never done an honest day’s toil in their miserable existence. Which is why Scotland has a drink & drugs problem. out of work provides opportunity for idle hands to become totally discouraged and drink and drugs are made readily available and exploited by those who have the financial clout to buy and distribute alcohol; and drugs for profit.

      Organised crime has no conscience.

    102. heedtracker says:

      Nice display of stinky old tory The Graun selling Brexit. Thousands of words but in precis, our imperial masters, politicos, UKOK hackdom, have not the faintest idea what’s happening, or going to happen.

      http://archive.is/cRauj

      Note just another total blackout of anything Scotland or stuff like how the whole of the UK gov freakshow have done no economic impact research or planning. BetterTogether couldn’t be much worse.

    103. wull2 says:

      With independence, Scotland can take the credit of things, along with the bad things that is only get reported now .
      Tell your friends vote YES next time.

    104. Col says:

      Is there a government minister somewhere in England and Wales that the BBC is going to be hounded out of office because of the snow? Just wondering. Maybe it’s just Scotland where that happens.

    105. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. Brexit, Davis and “You know that deal we both signed two days ago? We’ve decided we don’t need to honour it.”.

      Tory policy tends to lack ethical reflection, or essentially, Tory practice likes to follow a pragmatic approach that is free from moral bounds. Unfortunately for us all, pragmatism without ethical reflection, generally leads to social exclusion and marginalisation of the poor. Such an appraoch to government is also unable to give due consideration to the needs of future generations.

      Pragmatism, Critical Theory and Business Ethics: Converging Lines

      Abstract

      There is a “Pragmatist turn” visible in the field of organization science today, resulting from a renewed interest in the work of Pragmatist philosophers like Dewey, Mead, Peirce, James and others, and in its implications for the study of organizations. Following Wicks and Freeman (1998), in the past decade Pragmatism has also entered the field of business ethics, which, however, has not been uniformly applauded in that field. Some (Critical) scholars fear that Pragmatism may enhance already existing positivist and managerialist tendencies in current business ethics, while others see more emancipatory potential in Pragmatism, arguing that it complements and supports stakeholder theory.

      In this paper, a comparison of the philosophical underpinnings of Pragmatist and Critical conceptions of business ethics is offered, concentrating on the Pragmatism of John Dewey and the Critical theory of the Frankfurt School, in particular of Axel Honneth. It is argued that these two developed along two converging lines. Along the first line, Dewey was far more skeptical and critical of capitalism than is often thought. Along the second line, the reactions to Pragmatism of Frankfurt School Critical theorists developed over time from generally hostile (Horkheimer, Marcuse), to partially inclusive (Habermas), to more fully integrative (Honneth). At the crossroads of these converging lines a Pragmatist Critical perspective is developed and exemplified, and its implications for business ethics are outlined.

      https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10551-017-3564-9

      What Is and What Should Pragmatic Ethics Be? Some Remarks on Recent Scholarship

      Abstract. The aim of this paper is twofold. First, it offers a summary compilation of the main achievements in recent scholarship on the issue of pragmatic ethics—underlining the lack of consensus, but also showing basic agreement about the key features of the ethical philosophy of pragmatism. Second, it focus on two strands of pragmatism: the one spearheaded by Charles S. Peirce, which stresses the importance of habits, and the tendency of things (including human beings) to become habit-governed as the key to the development of ‘concrete reasonableness’, the ultimate end by which human action ought to be guided; and the one led by John Dewey, which stresses the importance of deliberative activity—a ‘dramatic rehearsal’ of the possible consequences of every course of action—and the central role of educational work in developing the ‘growth’ of human nature, in itself the highest ethical ideal—an ideal that manifests itself in the ‘reconstruction’ of a new and more democratic society.

      http://lnx.journalofpragmatism.eu/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/SERRA.pdf

      What is PRAGMATIC ETHICS? What does PRAGMATIC ETHICS mean? PRAGMATIC ETHICS meaning & explanation
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U27iZRfZwVU

    106. Robert Peffers says:

      I note the usual suspects are out in force today and in total agreement with their never-ending SNP BAAD! mantra. Unionist infiltrators each and every one of them.

      The SNP fight tooth and nail in both parliaments but have no control over the lies and omissions of the shadowy wealthy far right controlled Westminster Establishment and their propaganda machinery in the media.

      These people, if they were genuine Scottish Nationalists, would be better served in NOT blaming the SNP or the larger YES movement. I have posted many links to the actual parliamentary events that show, beyond any doubt, that the SNP contingent at Westminster, the SG at Holyrood and the SNP Councillors are doing their parts well and consistently.

      The SNP and YES Movement not only run Scotland well but constantly expose the underhand actions of the opposition and their compliant media. Their work just isn’t reported by the media. In point of fact this part of the indy movement should be done by the rank & file and is the job these sheeple should be doing instead of doing the Westminster Establishment’s work for the Union.

      If these people were genuine they would NOT be constantly yelling SNP BAAAD but would instead be working to disseminate the real facts. They shame the SNP and YES movement by their never ending BAAAAD bleating like the sheeple they are.

      Here’s just one link that shows the SNP Westminster contingent disrespecting the Westminster Establishment yet there has been several commenters on Wings complaining the the SNP needs to show Westminster disrespect. They do and always have done so.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i57sjfsdfBo

      So tell me, just who is right and who is wrong?

      Am I wrong to claim these complainers don’t know the truth or am I right in telling them they are wrong?

    107. Valerie says:

      @ Dr Jim

      I agree and would even extend that to Ulster Unionists. Yes, the DUP have enjoyed a moment in the sun, but they are being used, and the Brits will shit on them or lie to them as necessary.

      I hope for the sake of the future, young people in NI see their future lies in reunification.

    108. Clydebuilt says:

      Dave McEwan Hill

      Surely the bedrock of an independence campaign has to be folk realising the Scottish Gov. Are competent.

      Simple messages that demonstrate Scotland is in a much better place than the rest of the UK. There’s bucket loads of data demonstrating this over at https://www.scoop.it/t/talking-up-scotland
      eg NHS A&E performance, train punctuality , no need to go near Currency, constitution.

    109. CameronB Brodie says:

      We know the Brexit decision lacked ethical reflection as there were no impact assessments carried out. Simples.

      Pragmatic Ethics
      http://www.hughlafollette.com/papers/pragmatic_ethics.pdf

    110. Clydebuilt says:

      I’m thinking we need to fire up the YES band wagon and run a short focused campaign to disabuse voters of the notion that the SNP are incompetent, being pumped out daily.

      Undermine it once , undermined for life. . . . an imunisation programme

    111. colin alexander says:

      Thank you Alex Neil for speaking out (Mesh Implants Story). Thank you also for (previously)speaking out against the unfit for purpose SPSO, who often perform a similar function as those civil servants you criticised: they cover up the truth and try to deprive complainants of justice.

      On another matter, I’ve written to Shona Robison and got a fob off referring me back to the SPSO. The Justice Secretary (Michaels Matheson) couldn’t find the time to reply – right enough, that’s understandable with the state of things under his oversight of Police Scotland etc.

      The SNP came into power promising a new type of government. Open, transparent, reforming.

      They certainly aren’t open and it’s transparent that the they treat the Scottish public with the same contempt as those that have gone before.

      Cover-ups, denials, obstruction of justice, prolonging the suffering of those affected.

      Disgraceful and disgusting.

      Shame on you, Scottish Government.

    112. heedtracker says:

      Shame on you, Scottish Government.

      But you’re still 1 million percent YES for Scotland, right Colin.

    113. Jack Murphy says:

      BREXIT MEANS BREXIT!

      A 2 minute FILM for Newbies and Weekenders. Welcome. 🙂

      Published earlier this year.

      https://tinyurl.com/kwjlt8e

    114. Capella says:

      @ ronnie anderson – thx for the clip on Culloden development proposal. I was surprised to hear that the Scottish government had overturned the Highland council’s refusal to allow a housing development on a site next to Culloden Moor.
      https://www.facebook.com/james.dwyer.1029/posts/1513063822076009

      Does anyone know who makes such decisions?

    115. CameronB Brodie says:

      colin alexander
      Very good Colin, that a compelling story you have there. Now, here’s something for you to consider. I’m sure you wouldn’t want to be misleading or condescending to folk, would you?

      Exploring symbolic violence in the everyday: misrecognition, condescension, consent and complicity

      Abstract

      In this article, we draw on Pierre Bourdieu’s concepts of ‘misrecognition’, ‘condescension’ and ‘consent and complicity’ to demonstrate how domination and violence are reproduced in everyday interactions, social practices, institutional processes and dispositions. Importantly, this constitutes symbolic violence, which removes the victim’s agency and voice. Indeed, we argue that as symbolic violence is impervious, insidious and invisible it also simultaneously legitimises and sustains other forms of violence as well. Understanding symbolic violence together with traditional discourses of violence is important because it provides a richer insight into the ‘workings’ of violence, provides new ways of conceptualising violence across a number of social fields and new strategies for intervention.

      Symbolic violence is a valuable tool for understanding contentious debates on the disclosure of violence, women leaving or staying in abusive relationships or returning to their abusers. Whilst we focus only on violence against women, we recognise that the gendered nature of violence produces its own sets of vulnerabilities against men and marginalised groups, such as LGBT. The paper draws on empirical research conducted in Sweden in 2003 by the second-author. Sweden is an interesting case study because despite its progressive gender equality policies, there has been no marked decrease in the violence towards women by men.

      https://research-repository.st-andrews.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/10023/10214/Sanghera_2016_FR_SymbolicViolence_AM.pdf?sequence=1

    116. colin alexander says:

      The sooner we get independence, the better, so we can get rid of the rubbish SNP devolution Westminster puppet government and their Unionist opposition ( puppets of the UK Govt) counterparts which prevents proper governance of Scotland.

      Scotland does not have accountable government in Scotland or UK.

      The SNP came into power promising their versions of Perestroika and Glasnost. Democratic reform and open accountable government.

      From power being concentrated in the hands of a Labour few, it’s now concentrated in the hands of an SNP few.

      It’s nigh on impossible to vote out rotten MSP’s if they lick enough party bosses airses, to get on the party list too.

      And it remains government by quangos who remain largely unaccountable on a day to day basis.

      Only some of the most serious scandals or abuses ever come to light and it takes weeks of media pressure, it’s not from the government or government party MSPs, before anything is done.

      Because protecting political reputations matters more, image is everything.

      The victims of the injustices, the wrongs, are just problems to be concealed, so things look good.

      Do I blame the SNP? Aye, they are in power. They could have tried to change things, but have adopted the same mentality and working practices as the previous Labour administration. Also, the same culture operates throughout the civil service, quangos, and other political parties. The regulatory bodies are unfit for purpose. The whole system is rotten.

      Good afternoon Wingers. Keep warm and keep fighting for not only an independent Scotland, but one that’s less corrupt and more accountable to the public, than we have under these SNP and Tory governments.

    117. colin alexander says:

      Good afternoon, Heedtracker.

      Correct. My criticism of the current Scottish Government, is criticism of a Mickey Mouse devolution set-up that are just glorified administrators of Westminster Govt – The Holyrood Branch Office,if you like – operating on a begging bowl principle of servility to London and the UK ruling Establishment.

    118. Iain mhor says:

      @Les Wilson
      @Bob Mack
      You both make similar and fair points. I did allude to war being good for business and their “Red Mist”. I just think their primary concern is war-business. Not that their primary focus is deliberate destabilisation or fracturing of Europe, just that whatever happens to Europe will be collateral.
      Unless the argument is that actually destabilising Europe would lead to war. I don’t think they need that, they’re perfectly capable of starting one in an empty room.

      The only place to look at the moment for any evidence of that would be Ukraine. Europe doesn’t really want to know and neither does the US. Yes, via war-business the US is swinging to an interest and possible supply of arms to Kiev – at present it’s sanctions and let Ukraine get on with it.

      Their referendum is another interesting “illegal” one. With accusations of mass propaganda (Russian) control of media etc etc. But hey presto, it’s been accepted. In that it’s accepted Russia now has Crimea. But I think it’s a stretch (though not impossible) to say the US caused the destabilisation of Crimea in order to foment war with Russia/War in Europe, but that’s a really hard sell.
      If they had wanted that, they could have folded Ukraine into Nato and/or the EU a while ago – bingo. Russia invades a Nato member/EU state – job done. Of course they may well profit from the current situation but I doubt it was shenanigans by the US or shady Greystone/ Blackwater types which initiated it.

      Its origins are a pretty straightforward seeming timeline:
      Post soviet initial collapse, recovery, global finance crash, Russian finance collapse, Russian trade terms against Ukraine, further financial collapse. Solution = Pro-Russian
      or Pro-European. Yanukovych took the Russian $15bn dollar bung instead of a European one and that ostensibly led to the country finally fracturing.
      Now Kiev is being offered the same by US/Europe to shore up and stabilise Ukraine’s economy. Not allow further destabilisation. Nato gets to rumble some tanks to European borders, the US gets to engage in some war materiel sales and play it’s favourite game of poking the Russian Bear with a pointy stick.
      Still, politics eh? Who the he really knows what’s going on. Not me for sure. Just an opinion.

    119. Ken500 says:

      Lower student fees, less student debt, social care, prescriptions, bus passes. Houses, roads, railways, ships built. Higher employment. No bedroom tax, welfare cuts mitigated, increased funds for the homeless etc, etc. SNP Gov standing up for Scotland.

      Another Independence Ref soon. Just needs 5%.

    120. Famous15 says:

      Let’s not get distracted by minor irritations,Take a lesson from the hardworking Unionist Colin Alexander. He never lets up on painting the Scottish Government as shite even though the world and his auntie know the SG is the most competent Government this side of the China Sea.

      He never lets his focus shift from backstabbing Scotland in support of the British Empire. He is relenless and that trait is to be admired if not imitated in one so young.

      Scotland awake. Independence is in our grasp!

    121. galamcennalath says:

      Valerie says:

      I hope for the sake of the future, young people in NI see their future lies in reunification.

      Latest opinion poll puts reunification at ~50:50, but I wonder how the age demographic splits.

      In both IndyRef and EURef we saw big differences in the way old and young vote.

      People should vote for what is best for the generations to come, not as a homage to the generations which have passed. Younger people seem to get that more. Do young people in NI look forward, or backward?

    122. CameronB Brodie says:

      colin alexander
      The limitations of Holyrood and the culture of governance, were defined by Unionist parties. I doubt it can be structurally reformed before we are independent. Anyway, such effort would obviously detract from the SNP’s stated aim, i.e. self-determination for Scotland. Then we can do thing better. Anyway, I’m not sure if your opinion is backed up with empirical or qualitative evidence?

    123. heedtracker says:

      colin alexander says:
      10 December, 2017 at 2:29 pm
      The sooner we get independence, the better,

      Tis true. There’s not much bigger and important Scots gov policy than that is there Colin?

      I mind you now Colin, you’re the one who kept raging at us to stop voting SNP, for Scots indy ref2, for a long time, then went all quiet, because that was the way forwards for Scottish democracy.

      Hey ho Colin, takes all sorts. You’re not the nuttiest of nuts around, are you:D

    124. Ken500 says:

      Ukraine wanted a loan from the EU. Merkel refused. The President went to the Russians for support. It was unpopular move. It all kicked off. The President was removed. A new President was imposed. A multibillionaire who had misappropriated public money. The Russian needed payment for their gas supplied to Ukraine. Russia threatened to cut off supplies for non payment. The US supplied the loans which were paid to the Russian by Ukraine. Crimea was originally Russian territory. Voted 90% to stay under Russian influence. Russian speakers on the border were being denied equal representation rights in Ukraine. Dependant on Russian economically.

    125. colin alexander says:

      Famous 15

      Are you suggesting the SNP govt at Holyrood are an independent Scotland Govt? So, I’m attacking Scottish indy?

      Or, do they run a devolution set-up designed and implemented to try and prevent independence being achieved? So,that politicians here get to play at a limited, glorified community council type of government with Mega-sized political salaries designed to appease the politicians and keep the restless natives pacified.

      The UK Govt can take us to war, take us out the EU etc, they decide if we are allowed to decide our constitutional future, but hey, we get universal non-charged for prescriptions at the chemist ( we pay for them through taxation etc, so they aren’t free). Hooray for small mercies.

    126. jfngw says:

      The DUP should remember the Tories have long memories, once their vote is no longer required I suspect vengeance will be somewhere down the line. They were willing to destroy the UK mining industry to teach the workers and unions a lesson, don’t mess with the UK establishment.

    127. Davy says:

      Ok who’s been feeding the “colin alexander”, have you seen the shite he’s producing.

      Nae mare, its a Sunday.

    128. Famous15 says:

      Colin Alexander is a wee “divide and rule “ monkey.

      He is good though.Look at how he diverts and disrupts every thread yet he is “on your side”

      He will vanish like a puff of smoke on Independence Day!

    129. CameronB Brodie says:

      colin alexander
      So what do you recommend, UDI?

    130. Chick McGregor says:

      Breeks
      “America has the greatest amount of TOTAL debt than has ever been known. It is so big when taking everything in, that it is impossible to pay back, and at some point it will come home to roost and the whole fiat corrupt money system will collapse.”

      America has the biggest, but the next biggest, at more than half the American total, is the UK.

      However, when you take into account that America has 5 times the UK population, the pro rata total debt for the UK is much, much, worse.

      The following Wall St analysis is about 5 years old now but it does show how the Total Debt breaks down.

      https://www.dropbox.com/s/2yirz62mabcczel/World20debt20to20GDP.jpg?dl=0

    131. heedtracker says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      10 December, 2017 at 3:07 pm
      colin alexander
      So what do you recommend, UDI?

      A therapist. They can work wonders these days:D

      But maybe he’s right, if he can just get the SNP out, then he can begin campaigning for indy ref2, by er, well, voting for the other Scottish parties that want Scotland to hold indy ref2.

      He’s a genius, is our Co.

    132. colin alexander says:

      The SNP already have the political mandate via the 2016 election result and the vote at Holyrood.

      Bring on indyref. Let’s see what “no compromise” May says. If she says NO, bring it on anyway and we can declare, not UDI, but dissolution of the Union treaty and we get rid of purring Betty too, while we are at it, and declare The Kingdom of Scotland has become the Republic of Scotland.

    133. heedtracker says:

      Bring on indyref. Let’s see what “no compromise” May says.

      Think she’ll block it Co?

    134. CameronB Brodie says:

      Who will dissolve the Acts of Union and declare indi for Colin, HMG? On what authority?

    135. Phronesis says:

      The Turing test as applied to language- the ‘imitation’ principle

      The Turing test in AI asks what constitutes as truly human and how might we be able to program a computer to mimic our human qualities in a language to make our personal and cultural beliefs maximally public and minimally ambiguous.

      http://www.turing.org.uk/scrapbook/test.html

      The language that signals Brexit would not pass the Turing test- it is not intelligent. Brexit means staying in the EU, using EU ‘foreigners’ as bargaining chips means that EU nationals will have their rights preserved, taking back our powers means staying under the jurisdiction of the ECJ, and trade deals with the rest world will not offset the loss of market access to the EU.
      And after all of that, UKOK will be out of pocket to the tune of at least £50 billion.

      Congratulations to N. Ireland for gaining their independence in the EU and being the catalyst to a united Ireland. It is fitting that re-unification is made through commerce and trade deals and not using bombs and bullets.

      Scotland’s relationship with the EU as an independent country should be made maximally public and minimally ambiguous.

    136. colin alexander says:

      @Heedtracker

      If support for YES is within 10% of NO, the likelihood of the UK Govt giving loaned constitutional powers to the Scot Govt to hold a legally binding referendum that would empower the devolved assembly to declare independence is close to zero, in my opinion.

      The likelihood of the SNP standing up to the UK Govt on that issue is about the same odds.

    137. Peter says:

      The trolls clocked on at his desk is he paid to do this. must be the Sunday afternoon shift. Can’t believe people here are daft enough to feed it.

    138. heedtracker says:

      The likelihood of the SNP standing up to the UK Govt on that issue is about the same odds.

      You are being dishonest with your WoS btl readership Co. You are a unionist, you’re cunning plan to get the SNP out of government and thereby cancelling indy ref2, is neatly matched by the endless SNP bad stuff, pouring of Pacific Quay alone.

      But despite all that, Teresa is not going to block indy ref2. She knows that blocking indy ref2 might buy her BBC Scotland creep show a little more time to get the SNP out but its likely they will be able to do it, even in the next Scottish and UK GE’s. No one trusts the BBC now, just like red tory SLabour, their reputation, integrity, honour and probity were all sacrificed for the UKOK zone, 2014.

      Teresa may have been a high stakes tory gambler like Cammers, before her catastrophic snap GE, but the result has clearly shaken the super confident, “my bbc will save me” tory gambler in her, let alone her aghast shire tory bankbench inbred freak show.

      She knows that a block on indy ref2 by our imperial masters in London, say in 2019, will only make the SNP vote bigger and deeper.

      And it wont make any difference how much SNP bad pressure BBC Scotland gimps try to inflict on Scots.

      Surprised to see you creep back in to WoS btl though, and with exact same cunning unionist ploy as last time. Are you not bored of it? Your mental as anything unionist pal Rock, also parrots the exact same unionist nonsense over and over right enough and he’s a liar YES too.

      Anyway, it is on Co!

    139. Iain mhor says:

      The perennial referendum legality, section 30 stuff etc. Always crops up and is always a contentious issue.
      The sad fact is, no-one here can be certain they are correct in their opinions. The UK constitution, where it remotely exists is a mess. Both the UK and Scot gov’s prod and skirt the issue for reasons.
      The UK government does not know what legislation applies. It thinks it does and believes it does, but it does not know. It has never been tested.
      It’s why every piece of paper relating to referendums, the Scottish Parliament, powers, everything to do with Independence, the “Constitution” and the “Union”, includes the phrase “The UK government believes…” (Look for it)
      It doesn’t know. Nor can it. If it did, the specifics would be laid bare. It just wraps everything in blind certainty that such things are and leaves you to believe it is true.
      It does not even know if the Supreme Court has the competency to rule on such matters.
      As simply as I could put it, if what the UK government believes is law was correct; then it had no obligation whatsoever, to allow the first Scottish referendum to be held. Because it believes all matters of the Union are solely reserved and only in the purview of the UK government.
      The upshot of that is, in order to legally dissolve the “Union” you would have to be the UK government. Ie: vanishingly impossible. So it begs the question “Why did it?”

      All UK referendums are advisory and would have to be passed into law (or explicitly set into law beforehand) Which is why there is a stooshie over Brexit. It’s argued it was never correctly passed into law after the referendum.
      One answer is that the UK government would always negotiate the issue because it is in mortal fear of having the matter dragged into courts. It can maintain a moral integrity (ha) via negotiation and fudges rather than having its ‘legal’ edifice torn to pieces.

      One of the better and more accesible summaries can be found below. I recommend reading every link and document within it and digesting it fully as best one can.
      Having studied many aspects of Scotland’s aim of independence (certainly not unique in that) I wouldn’t deign to suggest I had a definite answer.
      The only personal conclusion I can come to is it is indeed an unholy mess and anyone can do anything. The final outcome is anyone’s guess. History is on the side of nations grabbing independence that’s about it.

      https://fullfact.org/law/can-scotland-legally-hold-another-referendum/

    140. heedtracker says:

      One answer is that the UK government would always negotiate the issue because it is in mortal fear of having the matter dragged into courts. It can maintain a moral integrity (ha) via negotiation and fudges rather than having its ‘legal’ edifice torn to pieces.”

      Add to this though, elections. Look at how Labour have not yet really taken a Brexit stand at all. They’re presumably dodging committing either way to keep Labour vote from UKIP again.

      Same with the tories, they have the Telegraph, bbc, all the gutter press screaming for Brexit, with tory backbenchers.

      Either way, England wants out of the EU and they’re going to vote who ever gets them out.

      Look at the DUP joy, at losing last week. Its entirely possible Teresa doesn’t make it to the next Brexit round in the spring.

      https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/politics/ian-paisley-boasts-weve-done-varadkar-brexit-deal/

    141. colin alexander says:

      I’ve yet to see anything from the SNP since 2014 that indicates they have the desire to go for independence.

      Even the 2014 version was Indy-lite. Independence with only half the independence powers.

      Scotland wouldn’t have had to worry about fiscal policies, the UK Govt and Bank of England would have done that with the shared Sterling

      We wouldn’t have had to worry about fisheries, agriculture and a whole lot more, cos the UK, Germans, French etc would have decided that for us too by means of the EU.

      Since then? A not-according-to-law, shambolic Named Person scheme anyone? A minority SNP Govt that’s going to be in an even smaller minority come the next election when the media give it laldy about the SNP’s wasted years in power.

      Where does that leave the indy supporters, now that all the eggs have gone into the devolutionist SNP’s basket and will sit there till they’ve gone rotten?

      Out the EU and out the game.

    142. heedtracker says:

      Where does that leave the indy supporters, now that all the eggs have gone into the devolutionist SNP’s basket and will sit there till they’ve gone rotten?

      Out the EU and out the game.

      Latest polls in Scotland have YES at 47% Colin. In the face of all the last 3 years long years of anti indy propaganda all the UK media can muster, and it is a lot.

      Is that not higher than in 2014 Colin?

      You seem so flat too, is this why?

    143. colin alexander says:

      @Heedtracker

      If support for indy is so high, do you really think the UK Govt will allow an indyref? They got their fingers burned with the EU-ref and it took all the dirty tricks to win indyref.

      The only need to drag things out till 2021 and the SNP cease to be a threat.

    144. CameronB Brodie says:

      I think being forcibly stripped of our EU citizenship, probably constitutes molestation by the British state, that is likely to injury Scotland’s social fabric and public health. I can’t be certain though as there haven’t been any impact assessments conducted.

      On Liberty, by John Stuart Mill

      Chapter 4
      Of the Limits to the Authority of Society over the Individual

      WHAT, then, is the rightful limit to the sovereignty of the individual over himself? Where does the authority of society begin? How much of human life should be assigned to individuality, and how much to society?

      Each will receive its proper share, if each has that which more particularly concerns it. To individuality should belong the part of life in which it is chiefly the individual that is interested; to society, the part which chiefly interests society.

      Though society is not founded on a contract, and though no good purpose is answered by inventing a contract in order to deduce social obligations from it, every one who receives the protection of society owes a return for the benefit, and the fact of living in society renders it indispensable that each should be bound to observe a certain line of conduct towards the rest. This conduct consists, first, in not injuring the interests of one another; or rather certain interests, which, either by express legal provision or by tacit understanding, ought to be considered as rights; and secondly, in each person’s bearing his share (to be fixed on some equitable principle) of the labors and sacrifices incurred for defending the society or its members from injury and molestation….

      https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/m/mill/john_stuart/m645o/chapter4.html

      How We Think
      Chapter 8: Judgment: the Interpretation of Facts

      I. The Three Factors of Judging

      A MAN of good judgment in a given set of affairs is a man in so far educated, trained, whatever may be his literacy. And if our schools turn out their pupils in that attitude of mind which is conducive to good judgment in any department of affairs in which the pupils are placed, they have done more than if they sent out their pupils merely possessed of vast stores of information, or high degrees of skill in specialized branches. To know what is good judgment we need first to know what judgment is.

      Judgment and inference

      That there is an intimate connection between judgment and inference is obvious enough. The aim of inference is to terminate itself in an adequate judgment of a situation, and the course of inference goes on through a series of partial and tentative judgments. What are these units, these terms of inference when we examine them on their own account? Their significant traits may be readily gathered from a consideration of the operations to which the word judgment was originally applied : namely, the authoritative decision of matters in legal controversy ? the procedure of the judge on the bench. There are three such features : (I) a controversy, consisting of opposite claims regarding the same objective situation; (2) a process of defining and elaborating these claims and of sifting the facts adduced to (102) support them; (3) a final decision, or sentence, closing the particular matter in dispute and also serving as a rule or principle for deciding future cases….

      https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1910a/Dewey_1910_h.html

      Transforming the Personal, Political, Historical and Sacred in Theory and Practice: Personal, Political, Historical, and Sacred

      Abstract

      The eminent political scientist Manfred Halpern viewed politics as belonging to each of us, as part of the nature of being human. In _A Comprehensive Philosophy of Transformation_, his magnum opus, Halpern elucidates the interconnected “four faces of our being”: the political, personal, historical, and sacred. This momentous volume identifies several modes of political activity, warns against the dangers of leaving politics to professional politicians, and urges us to build networks of compassion that include everyone in a just society. Overall, Halpern calls for a transformative politics achieved through enhanced participation and understanding

      https://philpapers.org/rec/ABATTP

    145. heedtracker says:

      If support for indy is so high, do you really think the UK Govt will allow an indyref? They got their fingers burned with the EU-ref and it took all the dirty tricks to win indyref.

      Be the change Co! Or in your case, Be not the Change:D



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