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Wings Over Scotland

The compromise

Posted on December 09, 2017 by
(It’s nearly Christmas! Buy cartoon books for your friends, unless you’re a vile monster.)
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    95 to “The compromise”

    1. Dorothy Devine says:

      Love it!

    2. Giving Goose says:

      Ha! Brilliant.

      Just listening to LBC radio, which is a useful litmus test of what people are thinking.

      Martin, a Scot Brexiteer, phones in furious.
      People voted leave due to immigration but “we ain’t seen nothing yet”. Not voting SNP or anyone really. Shame. My heart bleeds.

    3. Macart says:

      Ayup! Quite the masterstroke of negotiation and diplomacy right enough. 😀 LOL

    4. Tackety Beets says:

      Excellent as always Chris.

      To think this is the “high” watermark, unless something drastic happens shortly, it can only descend further in the weeks & months ahead.

      Red & Blue Torys squirrel away for themselves and can not see farther than their nose for the rest of us.

      Keep on message folks.

    5. Athanasius says:

      Cold, man. Definitely freeeeeezing.

    6. Nana says:

      I’m pleased to see Juncker has relieved Theresa of that heavy necklace, it’s been weighing her down so much her shoulders are sagging.
      I hope he found a matching pair of earrings whilst rifling through her handbag or maybe he was just looking for some change.

      I can almost hear him singing ‘gotta pick a pocket or two’

    7. Highland Wifie says:

      Thankfully we can’t see what other items of clothing have been removed other than the shirt off her back.

    8. Lowlander says:

      Farage says this deal is a humiliation.

      Well, if anyone would know about humiliation, it’s the guy who’s spent twenty odd years bouncing around England trying to get elected to the House of Commons.

      Every time he fails restores just a little bit of my faith in humanity.

    9. galamcennalath says:

      Situation caught perfectly, Chris. Shirt off her back!

      There were only ever three options …

      Cancel Brexit
      Walk way with nothing agreed
      Do what the EU wants with little actual negotiation

      … so far, it’s gone as we would expect.

      What did the EU concede? Oh yes, allowed an extension of a couple of days to fall into line.

      The hard line nuttier Brexiteers must be furious at the Phase One outcome. Just wait till they see what the EU puts on the table next!

    10. wull2 says:

      The only thing left is a spare of pants, as she had to leave to change them last time.

    11. Hamish100 says:

      Another cracker. No not May!– but thank goodness the podium is in the right place.
      Of course hidden underneath out of sight are the right wing extremists plotting below undermining their leader.
      Hell hath no fury as a right wing tory scorned.

      Davidson putting Scotland first? No. Little Miss Angry has burn her cakes and its the snp’s fault. Another day closer to our independence referendum.
      Oh to be as powerful as the Republic of Ireland.

    12. auld highlander says:

      He should take those stupid beads of hers and shove them one by one up her …. ten she would find out just how strong and stable she is.

    13. Terence callachan says:

      In response to giving goose above, I say that Scot brexiteers are not going to vote for Scottish independence because they see the chances of strict immigration control being more likely if Scotland remains inUK.
      Again I also point to the 800,000 English people who voted NO to Scottish independence last time and will vote NO to Scottish independence next time this group includes remainers and brexiteers their NO to Scottish independence is unaffected by Brexit because Scotland being under the control of Westminster is power to their elbow for as long as they live in Scotland, nearly all of them are living in Scotland temporarily to work and will one day return to live in England.
      2 million people voted against Scottish independence last time, this group of 800,000 English people made up 40% of the NO voters that’s a sizeable chunk of certainty that Ruth Davidson and Englands Westminster can rely on to continue the colonialist imperialism England holds around Scotland like a straight jacket.

    14. Grouse Beater says:

      A neat treat for the festive season, Chris – Theresa May capitulates to the inevitable compromise, common sense and justice.

      I hope next year brings you lucrative commissions and the rest of us real autonomy. Time is running out. The Tories are rearranging British society in their image.

      Your essential weekend reading:

      Scotland leased to the Scots:
      A review of ‘Disaster Artist’:

    15. geeo says:

      Terence callaghan…poor effort kiddo.

      Must try harder.

    16. John H. says:

      At least he’s left her with her bra…for now.

      Giving Goose. I heard Martin this morning saying he couldn’t vote UKIP “because nobody votes for them up here”. How does he think political parties grow? You can be sure he will vote in a referendum, unfortunately.

    17. Muscleguy says:

      It could well be that the reports of a possible 10 year transition period would be agreed to by the EU with an eye on a change of government in Westminster, a second referendum and the UK deciding to stay In and the transition smoothing the way.

      Losing both Scotland and NI may well make English and Welsh Brexiters view the future somewhat differently. Not to mention the retirement from life of older Brexiters and the coming to the voting franchise of youngsters annoyed at having their future options constrained. Not to mention those whose jobs have gone to Ireland.

    18. Ken500 says:

      UKIP has contracted

      Gove wants another GE. To lose. To get out of the mess.

      Who wants the poison chalice.

    19. Clydebuilt says:

      BBC Shortbread . . . Shareen Nanjiani’s prog. Kirsty Strickland introduced as from Commonspace, but she’s got a column in the National.

    20. Valerie says:

      Oui, oui Jean Claude, that necklace suits you, sir!

      So next up, EU agreeing what their trade priorities are, and access to Scottish fisheries will be right up at the top.

      It’s why the power grab. EU have also proven their techniques are winners. Hang together, principles, keep hammering your same points.

      The whole thing is shameful.

      Not in the EU, but controlled by the EU. No say, just doing what’s required.

      The EU must be celebrating this weekend as to how strong and stable they look. Don’t blame them one bit.

      Meantime Tories are no doubt plotting how to crown JRM as king.

    21. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Strange looking through the assorted newspapers this morning ranging all the way from idiotic hyperbolic ecstasy in the Express and the Mail to this rather more damning verdict strangely in the Sun.

      “Theresa May agreed to keep the whole country sticking by the rules of the customs union and the single market – as the price of leaving the customs union and the single market.
      We will have to follow the rules, but no longer get to make them and we are paying billions for the chance to negotiate a trade deal with Europe worse than the one we presently have.”


    22. Dan Huil says:

      Never mind a Norwegian or Canada-type deal, May is going for a Brazilian.

    23. Tom says:

      Hi all, long time lurker here.
      Always enjoy this site ( especially the cartoons ).
      Perhaps someone here can provide a link to the text of this “brexit breakthrough”?
      I’m fed up trying to wade through the MSM pish about our glorious leader’s magnificent victory over the perfidious foreigners, and would like to know what has actually been agreed.
      It looks to me as if the UK government have agreed:
      1. Alignment of standards with EU.
      2. Freedom of movement.
      3. Ongoing payments (without refunds).
      4. EUCJ rulings.
      Now, if at any point, UK says we don’t want to comply, the EU can play the Norn Iron card and insist on a hard border.
      Have I got it all wrong? Wasn’t the problem with last Monday’s proposal that NI was to be a special case? The dup didn’t want this, so I presume that points 1 to 4 above now apply to whole of UK?
      Judging by the MSM output UK have really put one over on the EU.
      Not the way I see it, but as I said, can’t find an (unfiltered) text of the agreement for myself.
      Anyway hi again!

    24. jfngw says:

      It looks like WM will be a bit like Scotland, having to obey the regulations of another country but with little say in these regulations. Maybe the DUP/Sinn Fein will stand up for the UK as they are likely to be the only voices with any input.

      I see he didn’t obviously fancy the shoes. The EU see they have acquired a new poodle, just reward it by telling it how wonderful it is, you are such a clever poodle.

    25. heedtracker says:

      Good one! Its not like it wasnt going to happen like this either, Strong, Stable, Brexit means Brexit wise. Not since 2014 has our beeb gimp network grafted so hard at tory propaganda either.

      But chillax, says this ghastly little creep frae Aeberdeen.

      The environment secretary praised Theresa May’s “tenacity and skill” in securing a last-minute deal to end phase one negotiations on Friday.
      But, writing in the Daily Telegraph, he said if British people “dislike the arrangement”, they can change it.

    26. Chick McGregor says:

      And to President Trump, I would like to request, despite whatever you may have been hearing, that you do not move the American embassy from London to Belfast.

    27. Jock McDonnell says:

      I think the view in the prospect article Nana posted is wrong. The UK will be outside the SM & CU and will diverge slowly from EU practice. All Westminster is doing is managing. They don’t need a destination, its all about the UK establishment retaining power. 5 years, 10 years, 100 years, what does it matter how long a transition is, as long as Westminster gets to keep its authority.
      They have accepted NI is lost and it doesn’t really matter to them, they have given effective control to the people of NI, who can now choose how the balance of their borders with the EU & UK should be set. Over time that will evolve.
      Scotland however, the great bounty, is held fast. We really need to wise up.

    28. ronnie anderson says:

      Gove unleashed to further confuddle the confuddled , the electorate will get a chance to vote on the Brexit negotiations LoL , small matter of Brexit is March 2019 , next GE 2022 roll on tomorrow , what’s the betting Gove will be on Marr on sunday .

    29. Calum McKay says:

      When the opposing side in a negotiation are praising you, it’s time to resign, but we know Mrs May can’t!

      It’s time for Holyrood to vote aginst the repatriation of EU powers bill!

      Would the tories hesitate about sticking the boot into independence, no they wouldn’t, we shouldn’t hesitate about sticking the boot into the tories

    30. heedtracker says:

      what’s the betting Gove will be on Marr on sunday .

      Pretty good, but its Fuhrage at 2/1, for the rest of beeb gimp lives.

      Vote for me Scotch Brits, I’m Mike Gove, I got private school fees paid by Aberdeen tax payers, Gordons, then I got my Oxbridge fees paid by the UK taxpayers, then I got a job at Neo Fascist Voice of the North Press and Journal…then I got into politics and scrapped all of the above advantages and life chances I took for granted, because I am a tory, a British tory!

    31. call me dave says:

      Hope wee Hamish is getting rescued from that bag…but?

      @Jock McDonnell

      You may not be too far out with what you are saying.

      The whole thing seems to be able to be interpreted in a way that can reflect which ever view the person wants to support.

      Weekend popcorn unopened in cupboard until the situation is clearer. 🙁

    32. cearc says:


      Nice one!

    33. I bought the book the other day at a talk given by Chris and Greg. Chris was kind enough to sign it for me. (I got it for Munguin.)

      We couldn’t put it down. The drawings are incredible and the text which accompanies each cartoon is clever, witty and bang on the nail. It’s a complete joy.

      For those into the season’s greetings thing, it would make an excellent Xmas present.

    34. Les Wilson says:

      I am a bit doubtful over this agreement, the wording is wooly and some important bits could be messed about with resulting in a different scenario.

      What it has done, is to give Westminster more time to form the fudge, remember here please just who we are talking about and truth is not their policy, while deviousness certainly is.

      For my twopence worth I think that not so far down the road, a we are leaving the EU now statement will be made.

      What will determine this is just how trade talks will turn out. If the UK gets a great deal (as brexiteers say we will) then they will muddle on bitching all the time.

      The catalyst will be if no good deal is struck, which I feel will be how it goes. Then their true self will appear and the will say we now do have other options, we leave tomorrow and no fees will be paid to the EU.

      They will then be hero’s having saved the UK from the EU, in the eyes of brexiteers anyway. Then the public will once more be attacked with a huge propaganda program, telling them we should be proud the UK is free, and look at all the worldwide trade deals we will amass. Be proud people we are British, yaday yaday ya!

      The whole of the people of the UK will be conned again, and Scotland, oh yea, I used to remember something named like that.
      Ireland er ask the DUP. I would put my money on a hard Brexit.

    35. Valerie says:

      It wasn’t shown much on any channel, but it was hilarious and summed it up.

      At the excruciating news conference yesterday, when Barnier was at the podium taking questions;

      Mr Barnier, what concessions have you given UK?

      ‘We have not asked them to pay removal costs for our agencies’


    36. Andy-B says:

      Good one Chris.

      What will be taken from Scotland? We must leave this union.

    37. Jock Scot says:

      Thank goodness for that podium, no artist should ever have to go there. Also seems that these ‘dimwits’ believe that losing is the new winning. Can’t wait until there are no more MSM headlines to write. The days are fair drawing in.

    38. Abulhaq says:

      If only some broadcasting medium would have the nerve to hold a discussion on the merits of the Union, its rationale, its alleged benefits and importantly, the overall winners and losers.
      Scottish Unionists should be required to give an intelligent and reasoned account, free of the customary romantic and emotive ‘kith & kin bluster, that is the naked truth, about their allegiance to this culturally anglocentric, supranational entity.

    39. Valerie says:

      @ Les Wilson

      You are right of course. This has every chance of falling apart.

      One description of the deal is.

      We have an agreement to work on an agreement. That’s all it is. May was under the cosh of 14 Dec looming, imposed by EU, and its why she had to capitulate.

      The DUP are not celebrating, they have said they had input, and expressed some concerns, but it was ultimately the PMs decision.

      In other words, they are creating enough distance.

      I’m following a number of Irish commentators, because not everything happening on that side is being reported.


    40. heedtracker says:

      The whole of the people of the UK will be conned again, and Scotland, oh yea, I used to remember something named like that.
      Ireland er ask the DUP. I would put my money on a hard Brexit.”

      It is clear that we lucky lucky Brits have lost our EU passports citizenship, rights, privileges etc. But and as usual, real power lies with tory donors, the City etc. So they will Remain, everyone else is out.

      And SLabour and Labour are mute, because why would you your oar, in its not how the red tory creep show rolls.

      First up, removing that EU flag from our driving licences, its just below the big union jack on my licence.

    41. Brian McHugh says:

      Terrence Callaghan. I’m guessing troll, but I personally know 2 English people who voted yes in 2014.

    42. Nana says:

      I’ve posted the article in the herald by Kirsty hughes on previous thread.

    43. Bob Mack says:

      Question . Am I wrong in thinking that this could break the law ?. All citizens of the UK are entitled to be treated equally ,therefore although the Supreme Court in this country might find in favour of the government regarding N Ireland for political reasons ,we would still have the option of appealing to the European Courts for the next several years.

      Popcorn anyone?

    44. Croompenstein says:

      @Tom 10:49

      Nice to see a long time lurker posting. I agree we can’t see the wood for the trees everyone has a different opinion on what has been agreed..

      Actually boaked at the cartoon Chris got a mental image of TM behind the lectern 🙁

    45. Does no `Hard Border` mean no immigration or trade checks into UK on the Ireland/UK border ?

      and what `rights` are being protected when they say “the rights of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU will be protected”.

      `rights` is just a word,what are the specifics ?

    46. Arthur's Seat says:

      @Chick McGregor 11:28

      It would stir things up here though if he moved the embassy from London to Edinburgh.

    47. Breeks says:

      Valerie says:
      9 December, 2017 at 12:23 pm
      @ Les Wilson

      You are right of course. This has every chance of falling apart.

      If what Michel Barnier told the Holyrood Committee is true, then a Trade Deal is highly unlikely to happen in the first place.

      The EU will agree a Trade Deal with a non EU affiliated country only where the EU is in control to legislate over the terms of that deal, and where that 3rd country is working towards convergence with EU criteria. Barnier is highly sceptical of a UK Trade Deal where the UK sticks two fingers up to the European Court of Justice, and is actively seeking to diverge UK standards away from EU standards.

      All of Westminster’s haste to write itself out of ECJ jurisdiction, – the “Great Repeal Bill” they were so keen and vocal to celebrate, is going to haunt them, because the European Court of Justice will remain the sovereign legislator.

      If the UK wants a Trade Deal with Europe, then the EU will require the UK to respect every aspect of EU control applicable to Membership, plus some modifier to make sure a third party Trade Deal is inferior to a Membership Deal. I imagine inferior by some degree too. Ironically, Europe will have its cake and eat it; the UK bound to respect the 4 Freedoms or no Deal, but with EU legislating over the terms of trade and standards. By contrast, the UK will have forfeited the benefits of EU Membership, but gained absolutely nothing in return, and probably paying more for access to the Single Market but of course without the UK rebate.

      If the UK capitulates to all the EU demands, (and they will have to for a Trade Deal), then the Brexiteers in the UK will be frothing at the mouth. Bring it on!

      Please step forward messers Farage, Johnson and Gove, and take a bow for your Brexit victory. Your audience awaits.

      Come out of the shadows Redwood and Fox, your contrived collapse of UK trade and the English NHS has almost come to fruition and is ready for asset stripping and Dickensian exploitation.

    48. Artyhetty says:

      Daft question probably but is the power grab off then?

      Here EU27, have £50billion, we can’t think of anything to spend it on in the UKOK. What was that? People dying because we took their measly £70 a week a way, oh well nevermind.

    49. I personally know 12 english people who voted no ask have said before in ref.,2 no Incomers should be allowed to vote on Scotland’s future it is not their country only those who were born and live in Scotland have right to vote for the future of THEIR country no one else what’s wrong with that??? And no postal votes should be allowed they are wide open to fraud remember Ruthie on telly kowing the results before the count ?i have written to the SNP and told them of my concerns about this because we will never gain our freedom without these safe guards in place remember we are dealing with the masters of dirty tricks the Brit Nats

    50. ben madigan says:

      this is a political agreement on how to proceed -setting out lines of action. Mr verhofstadt and his colleagues on the EU parliament Brexit Steering Committee said it indicates “sufficient progress” has been made but several details still have to be settled on citizens’ rights , ireland etc.

      The really significant document is the forthcoming Withdrawal Agreement (expected autumn 2018) which will be an international treaty. What’s written in that will be binding for the UK and EU.

      That’s why ireland insisted the Border issue continue to be discussed right up to the end. It’s important to get it right for everyone on the island of ireland. I think the DUP will get short shrift from M barnier and 27 EU countries

    51. Capella says:

      They (Tories) obviously plan to stay in the single market and customs union for two years after March 2019. That gives them 4 years to wail against a second independence referendum, claiming it’s not necessary as we’re staying in the single market.

      They will undermine the Scottish Government at every turn by
      denigrating their achievements e.g. the Queensferry Crossing:
      blocking progressive legislation e.g. the Named Person bill:
      manipulating the legislative process to make it appear that those brilliant 13 Tory MPs are working miracles for Scotland e.g. removing Police VAT.

      They plan to devolve some of the repatriated powers at the report stage thus giving credit to the 13 glorious Tory MPs who can achieve so much more for Scotland than that harridan Nicola Sturgeon.

      They cut billions from the Scottish budget and rely on SLab to blame the Scottish Government for austerity.

      Aided and abetted by their lackeys in the media they will keep up a constant whine about Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Salmond, the Scottish Government and all its works, except when they completely airbrush Scotland out of history.

      They will be planning to get rid of the SNP in the next round of elections for Westminster and Holyrood.

      Their only problem is – we experience every day the benefits of living in a country where a progressive, left of centre government delivers the services we want and expect. In spite of the efforts of SLab, the Lib Dems and the Tories, direct experience trumps their fake news.

      Of course, blogs such as WoS are crucial to exposing the lies and mendacity. 2018 is going to be as dull as Stu predicted this year would be.

    52. Proud Cybernat says:

      Excellent ‘toon Chris – as ever.

      There is simply no way I can see how the Scottish Parliament can vote through this WM power grab – powers that, by right (i.e. as agreed in the Devolution Settlement), should be returned to the people of Scotland (from the EU).

      The WM Tory Government will then have to over-rule the expressed will of the Scottish Parliament for their power grab to take place.

      And it is THEN that the Scottish Government can go to the people of Scotland and legitimately tell them that devolution is dead; that the only way that the will of the people of Scotland can be properly safeguarded is to end this corrupt union and return to our former status as a sovereign nation of the world.

      When WM over-rules the will of our Scottish Parliament then they are over-ruling the will of the people of Scotland and that moment will crystalise in many people’s minds. They will then see devolution for the constitutional sham that it actually is and will see then that there truly is only one way forward for Scotland.

      Bring it on!

    53. Dan Huil says:

      Long way to go on talks. Don’t forget britnats propensity for infighting. Lots of opportunity to come.

      I really don’t see, however, why Holyrood should patiently wait. A wee bit of stirring wouldn’t go amiss.

    54. galamcennalath says:

      @Capella at 1:47pm

      Completely agree. Their plan is try to make it to Holyrood 2021 and hope for an anti Indy majority.

      In the meantime (as you say) the anti SG continues full throttle from ever source.

      IMO the survival of the UK / Union is more important than Brexit. They will not compromise UKOK for the sake of Brexit. Maintaining a business as usual transition is key to their aims.

      It wouldn’t surprise me if they keep up the cherrypicking ‘have cake and eat it’ approach to negotiations for as long as possible to give the illusion that Brexit will have low impact.

      Our three big threats to Indy are …

      Pretending Brexit will be super soft
      Losing a pro Indy majority in 2021
      A general election with a Labour win

    55. Capella says:

      @ galamcennalath – I even believe that they will usher in a Labour government if it will avert Scottish independence and maybe even solve their BREXIT mess. Better red than dead.

    56. Dr Jim says:

      I lived in Spain didn’t vote on anything because I never intended to be there the rest of my life nor did I feel it was really my business to interfere in another country’s constitution
      If I lived in India or Pakistan or any where I wouldn’t feel it was my right to interfere there either

      Half my family are English on my Mums side and live in and around Birmingham they all feel they have every right to vote on Scotlands constitution because they’re “British” and Scotland belongs to them so what makes people think that just because English folk vote live in Scotland they have somehow changed their minds about Englands ownership of Scotland

      I would like to hope that just because certain people have the right to vote they might excercise some manners and restraint and decide that just because we were owned by the country which they came from the point is we don’t want to continue to be owned by that country and it’s not a personal insult to ordinary people it’s an insult to the unconstitutional way Scotland has been governed by that country and even if you don’t agree try thinking about someone moving into your street then complaining to the council about the colour of your house because in the last place they lived the houses were white and yours is cream
      and they’re just not having it even though they may not be intending to spend their lives there and move back to their country of origin a couple of years later

      Every other person in the world when they change countries is called an immigrant and they don’t mind so why are folk from England accorded the different status of the fancy pre empire term of Ex pats wherever they go and what kind of country applies as many different names to itself in order to exceptionalise itself, The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, big long title to cover the fact that the only part that counts is England which funnily enough they don’t tend to mention that much do they,
      one wonders why

      The very term *Ex pat* implies an elevation of position and right more than others

      Ex Patriot, when you see the full wording of that what does it make you think and if you can’t bring yourself to refer to yourself as an immigrant and not an Ex Patriot then you should never be allowed a vote anywhere ever

      And I think you should know why not


    57. Dan Huil says:

      Indyref2 will be before the next Holyrood election and before the next Westminster election, unless the Westminster tories call another sneak one. If the tories did, might be worth holding indyref2 on same day?

    58. galamcennalath says:

      Capella says:

      Better red than dead.

      I genuinely thought they were trying to throw the last GE. They didn’t try very hard and had policies which seemed to be designed to offend their core vote! And they almost lost.

      Yes, the Tories would hand over to Labour if that was the price they felt they needed to pay to save their UKOK.

    59. geeo says:

      Well well..lookie-see this…!

      The EU and Japan have signed a huge trade deal.

      Equates to 30% of Global GDP.

      This came about because of Trump cancelling a trade deal on day one after becoming president. So much for the Tory hopes of a favourable trade deal with their U.S. chums.

      (Not archiving properly)

      Taken from Article…

      “Japan had been one of the signatories to the planned Trans-Pacific Partnership, a massive 12-nation trade alliance that Trump ditched on his first day in office. Abe said a “new era” would now start for the EU and Japan”.

    60. Les Wilson says:

      Ref English voters, yes, most will vote no, but by no means all.
      Enforced to me yesterday.
      I was looking for some kennels that would take my two dogs, but also an old cat. just for a few days so that we could get away a wee break after a very busy year.

      The place I wanted to see is not far from my house in South Lanarkshire, it is run by a English lady on her own who also takes in strays. She certainly has her hands full, she has her own cat, dog, chickens, ducks, parrot and more and a fair few dogs in kennels to look after.

      When I went into her small office I was surprised to see YES badges and Yes stickers around the office. I obviously did have a chat with her about the present Scottish issues.
      She informed me she could not wait for Independence and was well informed re BBC and the rest of their media pals.

      So yes, most of English origin will vote no, my area is full of them and the wealthy farmer creed. I do believe we need to address that in time for Indy, however I do worry that deserving people like this may not get a vote but also think that the lose of some votes to prevent an awful lot more voting no, is still a necessity for the bigger picture.

      I think this lady would take solace in the fact that she MAY be deprived in voting terms, but will be more than happy with the result being YES and Independence in place.

    61. geeo says:

      Not sure why folk think a labour gov at WM would mean an end to indyref2.

      Labour have no more intention of stopping brexit than the tories.

      They may want a softer brexit, but again, they have shown zero attitude for that, not going by brexit related voting records.

      And if they think they can even win the election, to achieve a softer brexit, they will need to have Staying IN the CU and SM as an integral part of their manifesto.

      This would let loose the rabid, predominantly right wing media on labour, making winning very difficult.

      However, even if labour win and declare soft brexit, so what ?

      Last i checked, OUR mandate was “being dragged out THE EU against our will”

      Out the EU.

      NOT the Currency Union, NOT the Single Market, The EU.

      A labour win changes nothing as far as indyref goes, not unless they campaign to cancel brexit completely.

    62. TheItalianJob says:

      Agree with most of the posters here that the Union has to be saved at all costs.

      Getting the Red Tories in under JC is certainly one way in achieving that.

      JC is seen by many of the naive Scots electorate (including many of the young) as the saviour from right wing Toryism. Unfortunately they are too young to understand and see that Blue Labour are part of the WM establishment that continuously closes rank to protect the so called “British Establishment” at all costs.

      They the Red Tories have fooled the Scottish people and Scotland into believing that they represent the working man and the ordinary man in the street when the opposite was the case.

      How any Scottish Labour MP or MSP hold their heads high is a complete and utter disgrace. They do not give a hoots for Scotland or its people and need to be brought to account for what they really believe in i.e. the WM establishment and all the corruption that it brings with it including the unelected House of Lords with 800++ scrounges living off us ordinary folk who want some sense of democracy that the present corrupt UK will never allow.

    63. Proud Cybernat says:

      The Tories are the fist in your face. Labour are the glove.

    64. bjsalba says:

      @Tom 9 December, 2017 at 10:49 am

      You said:

      It looks to me as if the UK government have agreed:
      1. Alignment of standards with EU.
      2. Freedom of movement.
      3. Ongoing payments (without refunds).
      4. EUCJ rulings.

      Now, if at any point, UK says we don’t want to comply, the EU can play the Norn Iron card and insist on a hard border.

      You got it pretty well right. Thing is that was always the way it was going to be, because what the Leave Campaign spewed out was a load of crap.

      Let us, as so many like to do, compare it to membership of a golf club.When you are a member of a club, you agree to abide by the rules of the club.

      The club has taken on on a plan to improve and expand their facilities with a five year investment plan. You vote for this. After 1 year you decide it is not for you and resign from the club. However, you insist that you must have the reduced price for playing golf rounds on the club course that the membership enjoy. You insist that you have the reduced price for lessons in golf that the membership enjoy. You insist that you have the discount for golfing equipment that the membership enjoy. Would you be surprised if the golf club told you where to go?

      And it is the Golf Club that has the upper hand.

      That is the situation in a nutshell.

    65. Valerie says:

      @ geeo

      Saw that Japan trade deal recently.

      Again, there is no beating the trade intelligence in the EU. Since the Brexit vote in 2016 the EU sped up all their on going trade talks.

      Now Oz and NZ are locked in to EU. They were languishing, as no rush to complete them. EU has cut off trade avenues for UK, whilst the Tories ran through their clown show.

      Now, there is NO way UK can get a trade deal that is better than EU terms.

      It’s so pitiful. Whilst the UK were beating their chest, the EU machine just smoothly cranked into action.

    66. galamcennalath says:

      I was aware the Japan EU Deal was ticking away in the background. The truth is, there has been very little coverage in UK media … wonder why!?

      The EU must have all the best trade deals sown up. Or close to it, Oz and NZ next possibly.

      Well, that does depend on how you assess a trade deal. The hard Brexiteers think a good deal is where the other party has loads of cheap dodgy food to dump at low prices on the UK. Looking back there was never much chance a US EU trade deal would be struck. Only the UK would be daft enough.

      Only the shear clout and negotiating skills of the EU can achieve such a comprehensive set of trade deals. The UK, out on its own with amateur skills, is going to get ripped off by commercial predators!

    67. bjsalba says:

      In case anyone has not noticed – the EU has beenn working on legisl and months.

      Euro-clearing is moving onto mainland Europe. As is contract processing. That has been a substantial part of the City of London processing (and UK tax receipts). No more.

      Time to go independent folks.

    68. Angry Weegie says:

      Brexit is all about preserving rich folks wealth. Thad’s so important, they’re deploying the royals.

    69. Robert Peffers says:

      @heedtracker says: 9 December, 2017 at 11:24 am:

      “The environment secretary praised Theresa May’s “tenacity and skill” in securing a last-minute deal to end phase one negotiations on Friday.
      But, writing in the Daily Telegraph, he said if British people “dislike the arrangement”, they can change it.”

      Aye! Richt!

      It may take a wee puckle longer but the electorate can, and probably will, also change the Westminster, Holyrood, Cardiff and Stormont legislations and, with a bit of hard work, make Westminster once more the real parliament of only the Kingdom of England instead of a de facto one.

    70. Mike d says:

      Dr.jim 2.37pm. Excellently put.

    71. Robert Peffers says:

      @Chick McGregor says: 9 December, 2017 at 11:28 am:

      “And to President Trump, I would like to request, despite whatever you may have been hearing, that you do not move the American embassy from London to Belfast.”

      After the above Cairns Cartoon that’s the next best laugh of the week, Chick.

    72. Mike d says:

      Les Wilson 3.02pm. Agree with your post les.

    73. Valerie says:

      For those catching up, or wanting detail.

      Alyn Smith has excellent comment, and includes links to good reading.

      Remember, Alyn is a lawyer too. Knows what he is talking about.

    74. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dave McEwan Hill @ 10:44,

      When I went in to the newsagent today to get my copy of The National, I noticed that orgasmic headline in the Express and this time couldn’t help but laugh out loud. What a comic. (Who the hell buys that cretinous rubbish?)

      Meanwhile, on the lunchtime R4 news, the British Brainwashing Corp. was proudly telling us that Iain Duncan-Smith claims the very opposite of the reality that Chris’s great cartoon illustrates.

      Oh, to preserve a shred of decency, the programme did slide a brief contrary view into the main report from some unknown bod, but happily “topped and tailed” the prog with IDS’s triumphant view alone.

      Desperately spinning a fake line in the hope that it will register with the gullible.

      For once, the Sun’s view is a dead-accurate summary of the reality. It’s what I’ve been saying for ages about any and all versions of Brexit-Lite. They are all “cake and eat it” frauds.

    75. Andy-B says:


      I can’t see how Prince Harry’s beau Megan Markle can gain access permanently to the UK, she’s a unemployed foreigner, the Home Office must surely decline her attempt at citizenship, as they’ve done with countless others, some living and working here for decades.

    76. Robert Peffers says:

      @Blair Paterson says:9 December, 2017 at 1:32 pm:

      ” … no Incomers should be allowed to vote on Scotland’s future it is not their country only those who were born and live in Scotland have right to vote for the future of THEIR country no one else what’s wrong with that???”

      Nothing’s wrong with it if you are judging it by the standards of pure unadulterated utter pish – and you are judging it by the standards of pure unadulterated utter pish.

      I’d bet a tenner to a pinch of shit that your own family line is not !00% pure Scots. Remember, according to the history taught in our schools for centuries, the Scots are, allegedly, Irish immigrants.

      Perhaps it is time we sent all those immigrant Scots back to Ireland. A guy I went to school with way back in the 1940s was called Michael Macallie. Now his family name is a French surname but no one in the family could trace any French connections and in fact they spelled the name MacAllie and the family had been in Leith for as long as anyone knew.

      Jesus was reputedly born in a stable, more likely it was a byre, but that doesn’t make him a horse, cow, ass or whatever. So take your racist bullshit and shove it in a very dark place. Scotland has no want nor need of it.

    77. Bill McLean says:

      Dr Jim @2.37. Agree completely with your post. I also have relatives in the Birmingham area and they are as brainwashed as we are demeaned and robbed. I fear that the UK move to have the Brexit interim pushed back to 2021 could mean the end of independence for Scotland. We could lose the indy majority and then a unionist Scottish government would do exactly as their masters in London want. We must make a move in the next year or two. I’ve lived in a number of places abroad, some as colonies and some as ex-colonies. “Ex-pat” is used universally by Brits abroad and is an abbreviation for “ex-patriate” – which if my Latin memory is right means something like “away from native country”. You are correct in deducing that it is used to denote exceptionalism and superiority and of course to keep the natives firmly in their place! “Immigrant” implies a supplicant of some sort – not to be used by the imperialist! Embarrassing!!!

    78. jfngw says:

      It is said that you can only be sure of two things death and taxes. Of course in Scotland there is the third, any Ruth Davidson comment will be carried unquestioningly by BBC Scotland.

      Even if the comment is 180 deg from the one uttered just 24 hours earlier, it will be reported as the latest statement of infallibility.

    79. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dan Huil says: 9 December, 2017 at 2:02 pm:

      “Long way to go on talks. Don’t forget britnats propensity for infighting. Lots of opportunity to come.
      I really don’t see, however, why Holyrood should patiently wait. A wee bit of stirring wouldn’t go amiss.”

      Oh! Get real! The SNP Westminster contingent have never stopped, “Stirring it”, as you put it. If you followed the actual parliament and didn’t believe the events according to the Westminster Propaganda machine then you would know that and then stop doing Westminster’s work for them.

      Here are some examples for you:-

      Now, if the Rev Stu will just indulge these half dozen links, on this one occasion, I believe they make the serious point that the SNP are doing far, far more, “Stirring”, than you seem to believe. I could pull out far, far more examples without even needing to search too vigorously.

      Just because you personally don’t know the truth does it not make it false.

    80. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 17:07,

      Oh, the distraction that keeps on recirculating like a bad penny. (Wonder why?) As if the natives are all resolute for independence to a man, woman and babe. =sigh=

      And not a one of the usual promoters can say just how their wishful thinking can actually be effectively implemented. As if it hasn’t ever been considered in depth. Just one example: if all English residents of Scotland can somehow be excluded, how can the reasonable claim of non-resident Scots then be ignored? You can be sure that a large proportion of those who are well established in England would vote “no”.

      There may be a grain of justification in their thinking, but there’s no practical way to address it without opening up a whole proverbial can of worms.

      Very rigorous enforcement of residency requirements for registration is likely the best that can be done, and that is certainly essential.

      But with this failure of a UKGov staggering from one abject humiliation to another in the name of “taking back control”, this non-issue is a total diversion right now.

    81. ScotsRenewables says:

      I’m sick of all the crap on here that regularly re-surfaces about only native-born Scots getting the vote in the next referendum. For starters at least six SNP MPs would be denied a vote. I was born in England myself, but I have lived in Scotland continuously for 50 years, considerably longer than many of those who spout this racist pish.

      It’s divisive, it’s ignorant and it is fundamentally anti-Scottish, anti everything 99% of the independence movement believes, so stop spouting this drivel on here.

      Anyone permanently resident here who intends Scotland to be their home gets a vote, end of.

    82. Glamaig says:

      9 December, 2017 at 6:31 pm

      Well said. Thank you.

    83. Tinto Chiel says:

      I see we have one new name and one older, more familiar one spouting the anti-English stuff on this thread, and, as Terence callachan (wot, no capital, unlike COLIN ALEXANDER?), late on the previous one.

      As Robert Peffers said,”So take your racist bullshit and shove it in a very dark place. Scotland has no want nor need of it.”

      I listened to Ian Smithson Dunk like Robert J Sutherland on Pravdasound4 and was astounded by his mendacity (or was it his sheer delusion?) when he said the EU had been brought to the negotiating table by their fear of losing access to the UK market and all the wonderful things we have Europeans can’t live without, all dutifully spouted by the state propagandist at 10 on the dial.

      Well, there’s some truth in that, but unfortunately for rUK most of it is produced in Scotland: high quality beef, lamb, game, fish and seafood, whisky, gin, oil, seed potatoes und so weiter.

      We’re the real Jewel in the Crown and without us the Tories and the other Yoons are totally Carmichaeled.

      PSBs: wake up, FFS!

    84. ronnie anderson says:

      As reported on CH4 news a Afghani Interpreter was held for 60days in a detention centre as a illegal immigrant , this is his payment for service to the British Gov & the same with other interpretations to be served notices of deportation , used and abused is the British way .

    85. Jock McDonnell says:

      @Capella & others, yup, hanging on to Scotland is more important than Brexit. Its an existential threat to them and all they identify with.

      I do think some of Scotland’s diehard yoons are struggling with contradictions and misunderstandings, its what makes them so angry. They are obsessed with maintaining the UK, but I think that’s not really the focus of NI yoons, their main aim is not being Irish.
      Scotland’s yoons are dupes. While NI yoons are looking after their own communities’ wishes, Scotland’s yoons are selling their country out for someone else’s agenda. John Buchan is a long time dead.

    86. Tinto Chiel says:

      Somehow forgot our renewables, which the Tories want to kill off by removing the subsidy.

      Think I’m sensing a pattern.

      Classic Roman Imperial behaviour as it retreats: salt the fields, poison the wells.

      Not long now to 410.

    87. Jock McDonnell says:

      And as for Alyn Smith et al, thanks for the running commentary but you have delivered nothing. I’d love to be wrong, maybe its behind the scenes, but I for one, as a humble foot soldier, would like a little more sustenance, maybe its all in hand. I hope so.
      I can think of 1, maybe 2 foreign powers we might, just might, get a shove from & the EU isn’t one of them.
      But in my experience, we need to do it all ourselves. All of it.

    88. heedtracker says:

      Anyone permanently resident here who intends Scotland to be their home gets a vote, end of.

      Absolutely, but then again, how to interpret what intending to live here permanently actually means?

      Also, you cant be racist to the English in Scotland and vice versa because there is no such a thing as the English race. A fair few countries as we know have considered themselves a separate race from everyone else. Or at the very least, a chunk of the population of those countries, ahem…Germany.

      Call it what for it is, bigotry and not racism.

    89. Robert Peffers says:

      @Jock McDonnell says: 9 December, 2017 at 7:27 pm:

      And as for Alyn Smith et al, thanks for the running commentary but you have delivered nothing.”

      Of course you have a far greater intellect than Alyn Smith, et al.

      ” … I’d love to be wrong”

      And you sure as hell are wrong about that particular matter.

      There is a veritable mountain of evidence that there isn’t a former independent and free sovereign legislature in the entire World that did not, (and not just in my own personal opinion but in the entire World history), that did not have to do it for themselves. Scotland will not be the exception.

      ” … I can think of 1, maybe 2 foreign powers we might, just might, get a shove from & the EU isn’t one of them.”

      Ignoring the very obvious point that the EU is NOT, “a foreign power”, because we Scots have been EU citizens since the day the EU came into existence and that means we are as much part of the EU as every other country that is in the EU.

      It also seems to have slipped your personal notice that the EU member state that we we are part of is not a single country but is a united kingdom that contains 4 countries and is legally a rather strained political union of only two, equally sovereign, kingdoms.

      A point made well by Alyn Smith :-

      While we are about it here is another I have no doubt you also imagine did nothing except behind the scenes:-

      I have no idea who those couple of non-EU countries are you fondly imagine we will have helping us to remain as EU Members and citizens but I doubt they are outside the EU.

      Seems, like may others, you depend upon what the Westminster propaganda machine tells you to believe and have no real idea of the sheer unending good work the elected SNP people have done over many years.

      Just to show what some of the voters of Scotland rejected on their Westminster masters orders see this:-

      These examples are not behind the scenes, Jock, they are in the European Parliament and in the laughably titled, “Mother of Parliaments”. A totally lying claim. The truth being that the actual Mother of Parliaments last sat on the last day of April 1707 and has not convened ever since as it was the Parliament of the Kingdom of England and what sits at Westminster ever since is the Parliament of the bipartite United Kingdom of which the Kingdom of Scotland is legally a fully and equally sovereign partner kingdom.

    90. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 21:12,

      Also worth adding that the EU isn’t a “foreign power” in any other sense either, except in wild Leaver fantasies, it is a voluntary grouping of separate sovereign nation states, each with its own choices and priorities but co-operating for mutual benefit.

      One of them being the Republic of Ireland, which at the moment is demonstrating very clearly what can be achieved thereby if you have a modicum of good sense and sufficient will.

      A lesson for us all here, if we’re willing to learn it.

    91. Jock McDonnell says:

      @Robert Peffers, whatever.

      Nothing you have said refutes my point. There is hee haw pressure from Europe in support of Scottish Independence, apart from the odd compliment, we have heard hee haw. We are on our own, time we accepted that & got on with the job ourselves.

    92. heedtracker says:

      There is hee haw pressure from Europe in support of Scottish Independence, apart from the odd compliment, we have heard hee haw. We are on our own, time we accepted that & got on with the job ourselves.”

      There was heehaw support for the EU in the farce Brexit referendum, from the EU itself, unless I missed the EU’s own version of UKOK ProjectFear beeb gimp fury, inflicted on all Scotland. I probably didn’t though.

      Its clearly not part of the EU rules. Although some are very creepy over Catalan, very creepy. But then the EU is the elected reps of over 330 million people.

      I do realise that beeb gimp Project Fearing didn’t end 19th Sept 2014, it just altered a bit.

    93. heedtracker says:

      Anyway its the global powers wot won it, or are losing it, for our tory imperial master baiters say stinky old Graun before they head up to their Scotland region, to slime all over Scottish democracy again.

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