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Down with democracy

Posted on June 21, 2020 by

So, the good news today is that independence polling is finally back to where it was almost exactly four years ago – 26 June 2016, to be precise. Although we couldn’t help notice that The National’s front-page splash on the latest (re)surge was taking second billing in its readership stats to a day-old story about the First Minister’s haircut.

Now, as we noted earlier this month, that might just be down to people getting weary of false dawns. But it might also indicate that a measure of realism is belatedly beginning to dawn on the Yes movement about the lack of connection between nice poll numbers and actually securing another referendum.

Westminster fixture Pete Wishart MP was quick with his usual insistence that growing support in polls will somehow magically translate to the UK government giving in.

When challenged about the subject on Twitter by people quite reasonably pointing out that the “Just say No” tactic seems to have been working pretty well for the Tories since 2016, Wishart never actually explains how this supposedly “coming” referendum will transpire, other than a sudden and rather uncharacteristic outbreak of morality on Boris Johnson’s part. (Usually he just blocks them.)

But try as we might, we cannot think of a single reason why Johnson would – or indeed, from his perspective, should – do such a thing. And to try to understand that, we asked a couple of questions of our own in the same poll.

We already know that hardly anyone believes Wishart’s view that next year’s Holyrood election will provoke a U-turn from London, no matter the outcome.

That’s worrying because it suggests there’s NO democratic route available to Scottish voters to bring about another indyref. And in our last poll, just a few weeks ago, we discovered a finding that seemed to back that up, contradicting numerous previous polls that suggested people thought it should be for the Scottish Parliament to decide.

Only 36% of respondents apparently believing there should be a democratic route to another vote, with 45% against, disturbed us, so we asked the old question again:

Well, that’s confusing. Once again, if asked directly whose decision a second indyref should be, a hefty 24-point majority of Scots (the same as the Remain vote in the Brexit referendum) think it should be up to Holyrood. Yet we also know that they don’t think a majority of seats OR a majority of votes in that Parliament should be enough for it to actually happen.

So in an attempt to dig deeper into this apparent paradox, we decided to do something we hadn’t done before – probe a little deeper into that 38% who don’t want Scottish decisions to be taken in or by Scotland. What’s actually going on in their minds?

The results were eye-opening.

Now, our bias might have been showing a little bit in the wording of those options, but we can’t think how else to express the bizarre desire to have another country run your affairs for you. (We did ask a few neutral people if they could think of an option we’d missed out, but nobody came up with anything. The one that’s closest to a democratic answer is the second-last one, which got just 5%.)

Nevertheless, the outcome was overwhelming – almost 70% of people who wanted to leave the decision at Westminster were willing to openly and explicitly admit that it was because they wanted democracy to be over with forever so far as Scotland’s constitutional question was concerned.

And we did quite deliberately phrase that option very bluntly and starkly – “no matter what Scotland votes for or what future circumstances might be”. Russian invasion? Zombie plague? Asteroid strike? A full-on military coup led by Nigel Farage and Tommy Robinson? Nope – for the vast majority of Unionists, NOTHING can ever be permitted to give Scotland a second shot at choosing independence. No matter what.

And that’s the mindset we have to address when considering what Boris Johnson, or any other Prime Minister, might do when faced with a consistent Yes poll lead.

The group of people Johnson is chiefly beholden to is Tory voters. Tories in Scotland have risen to a firmly consolidated second place by dint of taking an ultra-hardline stance on independence (to the extent of basically having no other policies at all) while Labour have flapped and vacillated. In so far as they have anything meaningful to lose, backing down on it would be suicidal to the party’s electoral prospects north of the border, and do it no favours in England either.

Simply, clearly, obviously, Johnson has everything to lose and nothing to gain from conceding another referendum in Scotland. Refusal strengthens his own and his party’s position, it doesn’t weaken it. Nobody that matters to him is going to be the least bit offended that it’s “undemocratic”. Indeed, the exact opposite is true.

Labour are signalling their own intention to go even more super-ultra-Unionist in an attempt to win back the votes they’ve lost to the Tories – apparently having given up on the far larger number they’ve lost to the SNP, because the one thing we must always keep in mind when discussing these matters is that Scottish Labour are absolutely mindbogglingly, almost inconceivably stupid and hate-blinded. Any retreat by Johnson would simply throw Labour a lifebelt and turn his own supporters against him.

(Tory voters were the most vehement on both questions, and spectacularly so on the matter of which Parliament should have the decision. Strikingly, nearly 60% of Labour voters wanted it to be up to Holyrood, compared to just 12% of Tories.)

But nobody should be fainting with surprise at this development. Unionist politicians on all sides have been saying it increasingly openly for some time. Ian Murray perhaps put it most explicitly this January:

But he was only echoing a position Unionist leaders have been making clear to anyone who’d actually listen for years.

The conclusion has long been inescapable: Unionists do not believe democracy applies to the Scottish constitution. The idea that a string of opinion polls showing that the exact outcome they most fear would come about will change their minds has never been more farcical.

It’s beginning to look like a majority of Scots really do want independence. But turning that into actual independence is no small matter. What we can say with something close to absolute certainty, from these and all other polls, is that Plan A will never work. Anyone telling you it will is lying to you, and taking you for a fool.

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    1. 21 06 20 12:56

      Down with democracy | speymouth

    236 to “Down with democracy”

    1. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Plebiscite election for Holyrood required ASAP.

    2. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Slowly moving in the right direction. Very slowly.

      Can you imagine where we would be if the SNP really started to campaign for independence.

      We need to declare independence based on an independence parties win at the next election, followed by a confirmatory vote.

      In fairness no U.K. government of any colour is going to assist the Scottish Nation to get out of the Union. They cannot afford to lose all the dosh they have been stealing from us.

      If we got independence England would collapse we would be hit by English refugees in higher numbers than we are currently receiving.

    3. Merkin Scot says:

      It is increasingly clear that Scotland will be free despite the attacks on those who want independence – attacks from the Tories, Labour and the SNP.

    4. gordoz says:

      Can’t disagree with anything in this.
      Is twitter gone from Wings arsenal forever ? Oohh err just read that again 🙂

    5. Jill Sharpe says:

      All they need do is put any GRA reforms on hold along with the hate-speech bill and make the region/list vote a plebiscite on independence – a vote for any independence party is a vote for independence.

    6. gordoz says:

      Pretty much on where we all expected we actually are. But thanks anyway for making it very clear.
      Personally I believe Unionists are deliberately suggesting no peaceful route for Scotland.
      As they did to every other former occupied territory. (Sadly)

    7. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “It is increasingly clear that Scotland will be free despite the attacks on those who want independence”

      I don’t think you read the article.

    8. Heaver says:

      So is there any alternative to UDI ?

    9. AnneDon says:

      We absolutely need a plebiscitary election next year. It’s the only way to break this Westminster deadlock. Hopefully the emergence of the ISP will wake up the SNP on the subject.

    10. McHaggis69 says:

      Nail. Hammer. Head.

      I respect your stance on sex and gender, but feel really sad stuff like *this* will be missing from Twitter exposure cos you chose that hill.

      I will tweet to my somewhat limited number of followers.

    11. Gary45% says:

      Jason Smoothpiece@12.44
      There is no such thing as an English refugee.
      I think the term is Ex-Pat;)).
      If the SNP hadn’t dropped the “Indy baton” we would be over 60% by now.IMHO.
      I agree that next years Scottish election should be a “majority vote for Indy parties and its game over for the union”, no more “begging bowl” mandates.And Scotland will dictate the terms for leaving.
      I suppose 54% is better than SweetFA in the current climate.

    12. Republicofscotland says:

      This would be more appropriate in here.

      What I take from this new Panelbase poll, and I’m sure others do to, is that independence in now constantly looking above the 50% mark.

      This should be seen as a marker by Sturgeon to use next years Scottish elections as a independence referendum, for it is very unlikely that Johnson will agree to a S30 order.

      Of course the real crux of the matter isn’t Johnson, its Sturgeon she’s reluctant to pursue any other avenue than that of the gold standard, (if she wants independence at all),due to that being the route to international recognition.

      However it’s Catch 22 of sorts, Johnson won’t agree to a S30 Order, so that route is blocked, to use next years elections as a independence referendum, on victory that route is blocked be cause Sturgeon, and the international community won’t see it as a good standard referendum.

      So what are our options, we could wait until Johnson is ousted from 10 Downing Street, which could be at least another five years, and whose to say the new incumbent won’t carry on where Johnson left off and deny the S30 Order. Or we could attempt to curry favour with an already sympathetic EU, and other nations, to see next years elections if independence supporting parties carry the day as a independence referendum.

      I see no other routes that aren’t fraught with potholes, the next best route I think would be declaring UDI, and that has its own difficulties, though I’m not against it, as I’d imagine the problems it would create could be overcome in a short period of time, if there’s no outside interference that is.

      Any other plausable suggestions to independence are welcome, let’s hear them please.

    13. red sunset says:

      Not entirely off topic :
      A friend of the family has decided to take redundancy from BA. She’s from near Heathrow. She is going to move and open a B&B in Inverness.

      This is a textbook case of white settler. There is no chance whatsoever that she will support Scottish independence. She sees her future income coming from tourists from the south of England.

      That’s one more vote against Independence.

    14. MWS says:

      The respondent answers to Q10 are truly mind boggling. 17% of union supporting ‘Scots’ reckon Scotland is England’s property? Who ARE these people??? Oh and I love the description of Wishart as ‘Westminster fixture’. That made me snort.

    15. Tom Halliday says:

      Pete Wishart advertising his ‘new’ blog on plan B, he omits to explain what plan A is or how plan A is going to bring about independence or another referendum for that matter. with this 54% in favour of yes, I fully expect (just joking) a statement from the SNP on when they intend having the indyref.

    16. JayR says:

      2 things that will get us independence.

      1. A plebiscitary election next May.

      2. The SNP finally getting its arse in gear and following the plans in Common Weal’s How To Start A New Country. Sorts the currency question out and leaves us not relying on Westminster for favours.

    17. Bob Mack says:

      It’s quite the “Hare and Tortoise” scenario. Whilst Indy supporters are living at 100 mph, the only party that can facilitate that choice is stopping to munch cabbage leaves at leisure.

      Sadly this isn’t a fable and there are no extra tortoises to fool the hare. Unless we are led by someone determined to take on Westminster we might as well pack up our Indy paraphernalia indefinitely.

      Someone please step up.

    18. Mike d says:

      Sadly this and events like George square will ensure that Scotland will never peacefully be given its freedom.

    19. Neil Mackenzie says:

      Has Boris ever overruled any decisions made in Westminster under E.V.E.L.? Is it even possible for him to do that as he has with the Scottish democratic mandate?

    20. Vinny says:

      Has Sturgeon actually came out and used the “Mandate” word regarding next year’s Hollyrood elections?

      She surely hasn’t got the neck to use that word again on us,,,has she?

      Do you know what?, I actually think she has got the neck to use the “Mandate” word on us again.

    21. Mike d says:

      MWS 1.12pm. I think we all know who the 17% of those ‘people ‘ are.

    22. Al-Stuart says:

      Spot on Stuart.

      If only there was someone in the wings (small “w”) who could rescue us from this Groundhog Day where the Tory-Democracy-Denying-Unionist-Zoomers chronically ignore our legal rights and national sovereignty?

      Oh, perhaps someone with political intelligence, ability, and does what he promises to do: hold an independence referendum OR find a way for UDI that carries the World (excluding Boris) with us.

      A proper statesman/statesperson to represent Scotland…

      P.S. Is it just me or can YOU hear someone Covid-coughing in the MSM Press Corpse (sic) whilst all they Unionist hacks ignore social distancing?

    23. Vinny says:

      Watch your Ps and Qs ladies and gentlemen,,, Pedantic Bob is watching.

    24. Norrie says:

      Send Nicholas south to renegotiate the treaty of union, just as Thatcher, Cameron et al did with the various treaties of the EU. When England refuses to negotiate or will not accept our new terms withdraw from the Treaty and Bob’s your uncle.

    25. susan says:

      Just more proof that the SNP have lost touch with the grassroots and are floating off into devolved generwoowoo land.

    26. Bob Mack says:


      Your forgiven___ after all schools out for summer.

    27. Gary45% says:

      red sunset@1.08
      Before retiring I had a few customers who had done exactly that, but a few voted no, then sold up, found the grass wasn’t as green back home in the shires, then moved back up north.
      Even now with the total embarrassment of Westminster, they will vote No at the next Indy vote, I can guarantee that.
      Welcome to a “modern day Highland Clearances”, because a shed costs more in the shires than a 5 bedroom house in the highlands.
      Indy has to come soon or Scotland is finished as a nation.

    28. robertknight says:

      Pete Wishy-washout would be an excellent snake oil liniment salesman. Talk about having blind faith in the crap that spouts from your own mouth…

      Westminster can’t keep saying “No”.

      Really? Why’s that Pete?

      Oh, look! A squirrel!

      He’s just a less rotund version of Blackford, who also thinks we button up the back of the head…

      We will not allow Scotland to be dragged blah-blah-blah…

      They both need an embrocation for an uncontrollable case of excreting from the mouth.

    29. Vinny says:

      Bob Mack

      You being the site Pedant does you no favours.

      You could actually be trying snobbishly to correct someone who is dislexic or who has difficulties with grammar.

      Then it makes you out to be an ignorant bully

      So watch who you try to correct in any of your future posts.

      You could be just making an unwanted rod for your own back.

      You don’t come across as a very nice person Bob.

      A bit too snobby for your average punter.

      This is not an English class Bob

      And you are certainly not the teacher.

      So be careful who you pull up about their grammar in the future Bob,,,or is it Nob?

      Pedants never last long on Wings.

    30. Bob Mack says:


      Aw diddums, Iv’e hurt your feelings. Sorry Vinny.

      I had no idea you were dyslexic. I will make allowances for you in future.Be happy.

    31. Al-Stuart says:


      You are, thank goodness getting us all to where we need to be. Including nudging many of us to look for and find answers.

      I have never seen Alex Salmond cry.


      Upon reviewing what WILL be coming down the line to evict the alphabet coven of McWokeist witches and squatters from Bute House, I was MOVED WITH THE GLIMMER OF HOPE AHEAD to watch our former First Minister speak in a way that I suspect he wishes he would never have had to. A way which will become the new normal.

      1.55 minutes/seconds in and 2.22 minutes/seconds reveal the raw emotion from Alex Salmond. Anyone who knows Alec will understand THERE IS NO WAY ON EARTH THIS INJUSTICE WILL BE ALLOWED TO CONTINUE.

      For those in any doubt about whether Scotland will become independent, PLEASE WATCH THE ALEX SALMOND VIDEO, then amplify that historic video clip by 10,000 and it gives you an idea of the power of what is about to clean the dross out of Bute House and get us back on track towards getting our Independence from this shite state of affairs (Tommy) where England governs Scotland.

      Stuart Campbell’s work in this and all of the other articles prove the factual ridiculousness of our state of affairs.

      Alex Salmond will return soon enough.

      The factual ridicule will transform into actual democracy and thence to Scottish Independence.

      After seeing that prescient video clip and the passion our finest First Minister, Alex Salmond has for his country, I am in no doubt we have hope. More than that, it is a certainty that Scotland will become independent.

    32. Vinny says:

      Bob Mack

      I never said I was dislexic

      Please read what I actually wrote

      I was referring to people who might be dislexic or who have problems with grammar.

      They should not be out of posting their opinions by pedantic snobs like you.

      And every snobby answer you give just confirms my opinion of you.

      What a fuckin snob you are.

    33. Jill Sharpe says:

      If Scotland were a small, poor and stupid country that needed subsidies then asking The English elite for permission to have a referendum would make sense as they would certainly oblige – We are not so why continue letting them laugh at us?

    34. JayR says:

      Has Al-Stuart been buzzing glue?

    35. Bob Mack says:


      Keeps you off everybody else’s back. I’m fine with that.

      Mutual disdain is ok.In fact I approve.

    36. Bob Mack says:

      ( Dyslexic) Like my son.

    37. Vinny says:

      Bob Mack

      As you can see, computers sometimes complete sentences for you that has nothing to do with what you were actually going to write.

      But you being the snobby pedant will see that as a weakness.

      I bet you whipped your kids to within an inch of their life for one spelling mistake.

    38. Capella says:

      We all know that Tories are anti democratic. Fortunately, international organisations such as the EU are pro democracy or at least pro the constitutional reality of the country in question.

      If Westminster refuses to co-operate in a reasonable manner, well then we will just have to use the next election as a plebiscite. We will have done everything possible to meet our treaty obligations. Our European partners will be all too aware of the problem.

    39. Vinny says:

      Bob Mack

      Site Pedant

      Sharpen up on that spelling folks.

      Or you will be CRUSHED by Pedantic Bob.

    40. Vinny says:

      In sneaks Bob’s back up Capella

    41. Vinny says:

      The Sturgeon Ra Ra Club are in the immediate area

    42. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “What I take from this new Panelbase poll, and I’m sure others do to, is that independence in now constantly looking above the 50% mark.”

      It’s much too early to say that. This is still only the second time in four years that we’ve had two Yes majorities in a row, and these are polls very close together from the same company. It’s good but it’s a long way from conclusive.

    43. robbo says:

      Vinny says:
      21 June, 2020 at 1:49 pm
      Bob Mack

      You being the site Pedant does you no favours.

      Pedants never last long on Wings.


      Might be just you.Hi millenium,how u doing?

    44. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      Bob and Vinny: that’s enough.

      Oh, and let’s not hear the phrase “white settlers” here again, eh?

    45. Vinny says:

      This site is filled with self styled gangsters.

      If you don’t tow the Sturgeon line then
      “yer gettin it”

      We will gang up on you and force you off the site.

    46. Vinny says:

      Ok Rev

    47. Stoker says:

      Thanks, Rev, another brilliant article. Particularly liked this quoted paragraph from you and I stress that some folk really need to read and re-read it and grasp the true veracity of it:

      “Simply, clearly, obviously, Johnson has everything to lose and nothing to gain from conceding another referendum in Scotland. Denying one strengthens his own and his party’s position, it doesn’t weaken it. Nobody that matters to him is going to be the least bit offended that it’s “undemocratic”. Indeed, the exact opposite is true.”

      And as a little side to that quote i’ll take those of you back who have forgotten about the tactics of the Tory branch office in Scotland prior to the pandemic distraction. Not a single policy did they produce on a single leaflet other than, sometimes, referring to local issues when in fact it was a national (either UK or Scottish) general election.

      And they do it because they can. Because they have a totally complicit and obliging “media” on their side who will not *ever* hold them to account for the public to see what liars & tricksters they are. But yet there are still those on here only too willing to promote that very “media” at the drop of a hat for any and all pathetic reasons.

      We also have the ‘Queen Nic’ fan club who wax lyrical about anything Sturgeon but run a mile when challenged with honest and polite questions. Now in my opinion there is nothing wrong with anyone choosing to support whoever they like but if they’re going to do so then at least stop berating those who don’t support your preferences if you can’t answer their questions.

      Once again thanks for another good honest article as is befitting of Wings. Makes a real difference to reading sycophantic drivel that contributes to holding us back in the clutches of a minority group of unelected self-serving liars representing the medieval cesspit that is London.

    48. Bob Mack says:

      Calm down Vinny. My son managed very well with his Dyslexia and has never been punished for it.
      Neither does he like many I know with the condition ,seek sympathy or allowances for his condition from anybody.

      Ps. He is very successful.

    49. Liam Garvey says:

      As an outsider (Irish, resident in Germany) what do you all think of the following strategy – new Independence Party (ISP?) stands on the manifesto pledge that it will support the SNP on condition that they immediately petition for a S30, and on refusal of that, that they will declare a UDI.

      If nothing else it would flush out the SNP leadership. If they don’t accept, it will be clear that they don’t want independence.

    50. Vinny says:

      Bob Mack

      Were you not told by the REAL boss of the site to “drop it” ?

      Couldn’t care less about your son.

    51. deerhill says:

      I am from the lowlands but worked up above the highland line for a few years, when younger.

      The “white settlers” as the locals called them, bought houses locally after visiting as tourists in June and July.

      Two winters usually convinced them to return to the warmer climes of S. England! Perhaps the incomers in Moray will not last until next years election? (smiley face thing)

    52. Vinny says:


      Is Sturgeon still leader?

      Why are we not hearing from any of our many SNP MPs.

      Have they been told by Sturgeon to keep their mouths shut?

    53. David says:

      If these polls are online they are useless and no one asked me .
      The next Holyrood election will be dominated by the virus and its aftermath .To get an Indy ref you have to ask for one Boris did a simple thing he just said no .How are you going to cope with that and the Holyrood election should be about issues affecting Holyrood only not an unofficial Indy ref.

    54. deerhill says:

      Sorry Rev. Typed and posted above before I saw your admonition. (I’m a one finger typist)

    55. red sunset says:

      “Oh, and let’s not hear the phrase “***” here again, eh?”


    56. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’ve been posting here for years, and neither Bob or Capella strike me as bullies. Just the opposite.

    57. red sunset says:

      ” and the Holyrood election should be about issues affecting Holyrood only not an unofficial Indy ref.”

      Ok, so why not make it about the powers which Holyrood SHOULD have, in order to take the sort of actions about the Corona Virus which Holyrood could not do due to ‘reserved powers’.

      Like, say, ALL the powers. Financial. Economic. Border control. PPE supplies. For example.
      Would that be a problem for you, David ?

    58. Bob Mack says:


      Just let it go Cameron. You would have more success of rationality when talking to a vase. With flowers of course!!

    59. defo says:

      No fash, we’re told we won’t be leaving the EU against the majority will.

    60. hatchetface says:

      Incredibly Sturgeon still doesn’t have any answers to the big questions that lost the last indyref. The campaign should be already underway, instead of trying to treat it like an election where you publish your manifesto weeks before the vote.

      I think she’s keeping everyone in a holding pattern until 2024 so she can say a decade / generation has passed since the last indyref, taking a decent hit at one of the main arguments against it.

      Johnson could be in power for another 9 years, maybe more! He and Starmer will never ever grant a S30. Corbyn was the most likely to do so, but that’s now gone.

      UDI will unleash chaos and anger on the streets, along with judicial review after judicial review for years. It will be condemned internationally and legitimately risks the parliament being shut down using emergency powers. The UDI law would never get in front of the queen to sign, as Westminster would block it, so would also need to include a defacto declaration of a Republic – however appetising that would be, it would unleash utter chaos.

      Referendum election – Won’t be accepted internationally as the gold standard would still require a specific referendum.

      Advisory Scottish referendum – The only viable option, using the new referendum act, recently enacted by the scottish parliament. It will be mass boycotted, but if it gets over 50% for Yes then there would be a stronger argument for negotiating a real, UK mandated referendum. HOWEVER we’d need to have a Scottish advisory referendum about something else FIRST, and get that decision enacted by the scottish parliament, to clearly demonstrate the democratic legitimacy of it.

    61. galamcennalath says:

      In Pete Wishart’s blog today, he highlights reality in stark terms ….

      “There are only two ways to pursue independence, one is with the participation of the UK state, the other is through a unilateral declaration. “

      Somewhat unclearly, and incoherently, Pete appears to think independence will come with the “participation of the UK state”. As Rev Stu very clearly points out, the UK state will not cooperate in this process. Why should they? What has any ideologically driven British/English nationalist got to gain? They do no more democracy than they need to!

      So that leaves independence by “unilateral declaration”. I have always assumed that UDI with a clear democratic mandate was the only likely end game.

      Can anyone imagine independence negotiations going smoothly? (If we ever got them to actually negotiate). Look at the way Brexit has been handled. They would not negotiate in good faith and they would try to spin it out indefinitely.

      A country becomes independent when it democratically proves its citizens wish self determination AND when the international community recognise independence.

      Democratic mandate -> Declaration and formation of new state -> Negotiations with rUK on divvying up commonly owned assets

    62. Baxter1967 says:

      I’d like to see a party committed to Scottish Independence that was left of centre on economics and a maybe slightly right of centre on the social/cultural side. A party that was pro business, concentrating on growing an economy that could fund a strong welfare state.
      I think this is where the majority of the Scottish people are.
      It is most certainly not where the SNP are.

    63. CameronB Brodie says:

      Bob Mack
      Just looking to help smooth over unnecessary friction. 😉

    64. Derick fae Yell says:

      I know it’s only a third of 7% but WHO are these SNP voters who never ever ever ever want another indyref?!

      Good God.

    65. CameronB Brodie says:

      The British state is actually required to assist Scotland become independent if we choose to do so, though that is international law, which is a subjective concern for Westminster, apparently (see the Right to Development). As is natural law and legal realism.

    66. Joseph says:

      I wonder if Nicola Sturgeon is shielded from the news of the growing split in the Yes Movement?

    67. Republicofscotland says:

      “It’s much too early to say that. This is still only the second time in four years that we’ve had two Yes majorities in a row, and these are polls very close together from the same company. It’s good but it’s a long way from conclusive”

      Probably not, a small leap of faith is required I think, you yourself said that the magical unicorn figure of 60% seems unachievable, therefore, hoping for a increase, and not a slight decrease seems unrealistic in my book.

      We’ve still got four years of Johnson to go, I suggest the main objective now should be finding someone who can get the message across to Sturgeon that next years Scottish elections must be, if a majority is won by independence minded parties, also a independence referendum as well.

      But and it’s a big but, will Sturgeon act on it, if her track record on independence as FM is anything to go by, the answer must surely be no.

    68. Josef Ó Luain says:

      My barber, an Iraqi immigrant with no-dog-in-fight, assumes Scottish independence to be unachievable due to the number of English people who live here, occupy influential positions, vote for Unionist Parties and favour the status quo. That’s only common sense, in any final analysis, really. The problem is, of course,: my barber’s ethnic origins allow him to apply his common sense and freely arrive at and express a commonsensical conclusion, without being accused of racism or blood and soil nationalism.

    69. robertknight says:

      Capella @ 2:06

      “Fortunately, international organisations such as the EU are pro democracy”

      Didn’t see the EU do much when the Guardia Civil were cracking skulls outside polling stations in Barcelona. Be careful of placing any faith in that or similar organisations.

    70. Bob Mack says:

      It’s bad enough when it’s Boris Johnson neutralising our route to Independence, but it is inconceivable to think it’s the party of Independence who are helping him directly ,or by inaction ,to construct these blocks.

      Through the looking glass.

    71. Stoker says:

      galamcennalath wrote @ 2:52 PM:

      “Can anyone imagine independence negotiations going smoothly? (If we ever got them to actually negotiate). Look at the way Brexit has been handled. They would not negotiate in good faith and they would try to spin it out indefinitely.”

      Of course they won’t negotiate like grown-ups and yes they will attempt to drag it out indefinitely. That’s one of the major problems here, a lot of us already know & see this as a likely scenario away further down the line so you’d expect our politicians to know it also. But i’d wager, under Sturgeon, we’d be taken for a ride as she’d allow them to control the negotiations when it is, in fact, us who hold *all* the ace cards. I’ve no confidence in her whatsoever.

      That’s exactly why we need folk at the helm who are wise to London tactics and above all else brave. Brave enough to say: “Right, here’s the position – this is our position – what’s yours?” Then when they say &/or demand the outright silly we turn around and say: “OK! There’s the door now GTF, we don’t need your agreement on this or on X, Y or Z.” Sturgeon is neither wise nor brave and that’s been proven numerous times over the previous 6-years or so. I’ve no confidence in her whatsoever.

      She talks a good game and she’s an excellent figurehead but as for leader and tactician? Never in my book. And we all know what the Sex Pistols said about the figurehead. Westminsters? Very likely imo!

    72. Capella says:

      @ robertknight – I said pro democracy or at least pro the constitutional reality of the country in question
      The Catalans signed up to the Spanish constitution, albeit under duress, so the EU can point to the constitutional reality of the sovereign state, Spain, and stand back.

      We, on the other hand have signed a Treaty. The terms of that treaty are broken. Scotland, as a sovereign country, is perfectly entitled to walk away from a broken treaty.

    73. CameronB Brodie says:

      If folk want the SNP to actually defend Scotland from Berxit, they will need to reclaim the party from those that believe in magical unicorns and the introduction of gender-ideology into Scots law. It is essential that this is done promptly, as Scotland’s legal establishment appear to be a bunch of reactionary Tories, so can not be relied upon to defend the rule-of-law from British nationalism.

      Psychological Functions of Semiotic Borders in Sense-Making: Liminality of Narrative Processes

    74. Proud Cybernat says:

      Bottom line – if WM continues to behave irresponsibly and refuses ever to recognise Scotland’s independence (should we vote for it in a consultative ref, plebiscite vote or even UDI) then it will only end in blood and tears. Is that what WM wants right on its doorstep–N.I. style troubles?


    75. Capella says:

      In fact, we are perfectly entitled to walk away from a treaty even if the partner state hasn’t broken the terms. The EU has accepted the UK decision to leave. The only proof needed is that it is the democratic will of the people.
      Getting there.

    76. iain mhor says:

      If an hypothetical 60% (or other arbitary figure) were to consistently materialise in polling, what would the SNP’s approach be, I wonder.
      Their Plan A would require more than ‘Can we have a referendum now?’ Not a ‘Plan B’ but a concrete means to effect the Plan A referendum in the face of Westminster refusal – So far, so obvious.

      What that really amounts to, is a unilateral referendum and crucially; the backing of Holyrood legislation and Scots Law to do so. There may be some other political means to achieving the ‘gold standard’ we are not savvy to (or anyone else for that matter) but, fundamentally that’s what it would entail. Note – that is not a PlanB in itself, it is required as a fundamental of Plan A.

      There is no bar to such legislation being in place at any point to my mind; the question is why it’s not (apparently) being pursued, or not already in place at the moment.
      The possible excuse, that they are waiting on majority population support to drive home such legislation, is thin. No Government requires polling majority population support for a piece of legislation to be enacted.

      Nor does it require some hypothetical majority population support, from a legal standpoint. If it did, then were such legislation to fail solely because of that; then it could equally be pursued again if the requisite, ethereal quorum was reached. If it were to fail on other principles; then at least the rules of the game would have been established.

      The legal challenge of holding an unilateral referendum, is also not a Plan B. It is a fundametal of Plan A. The various constitutional arguments put forward as Plan B’s, are no such thing. They are fundamentals of the right to hold a referendum.
      Beyond that, we’re into ‘ways to skin cats’ and actual ‘Plan B’s’ etc. If it falls within the scope of ability to hold a referendum, then it is part of a Plan A – I just want to reiterate that.

      Much as I enjoy the various musings on potential Plan B’s, most are not. That includes anything along the lines of ‘estabishing a right to declare independence by other democratic means without a referendum’ For if that right is estabished, it contains within it, the right to hold an unilateral referendum.

      I am.laboiring a point; but in a way, the mantra of ‘There is no Plan B’ is effectivy correct. If you have no democratic right to hold an unilateral referendum, then what right exists to declare by any other democratic means?
      I’m open to suggestions, but it’s a secret no-one is telling, far less the SNP. Possibly because we’re not genetically programmed to understand the nuances of democracy and political decision making.

    77. Stoker says:

      @ Josef Ó Luain on 21 June, 2020 at 3:13 pm

      Your barber is a very wise man because they are one of the biggest, if not the biggest opposition groups. I’ve always said that’s what i believe and until proven differently i’ll continue to believe that. And i’ll call anyone out for accusations of racism just for me believing that to be the case.

    78. callmedave says:

      Catching up… but saw The National when I got my paper 54%.

      More Labour deserters opting for Independence.

      17% of those in Wings poll Q think England own us for what was done in 1707.

      2012 election should / will have a commitment in the manifesto to hold a referendum within a year if an SNP Government is returned with a majority.

      Once upon a time in the UKGE, it was good enough for Thatcher, to have independence if a majority of SNP MPs was achieved.
      Let them in WM take that to court.

      The UK will be skint after the virus is past of course and there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth in the MSM of how dreadful prospects are for poor wee Scotland…the calls to, “best stay with UK nurse for fear of something worse” a BBC favourite.

      The same old song…..many will be have doubts and falter but enough is enough surely.

      Weekend numbers:

      Scotland …….today…….00…….Total…..2472…*SUN
      N. Ireland……today…….00…….Total……545…*SUN

    79. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I am more and more coming to the conclusion – the more the pro-Independence lobby in Scotland grows; the more seats the SNP wins at Holyrood, even to the extent of having a clear majority – the less-likely it is that Westminster will ever agree to Indyref2.

      Indeed, I am certain, if we do end up with an SNP overall majority after the 2021 Holyrood Election, then the more-likely it that this Tory Government at Westminster will manufacture a reason to close Holyrood and impose direct Westminster rule.

      We have to go down the legal/constitutional route, it offers our best chance of beating them. Even then, they will fight us all the way.

      Indeed, I firmly believe, shortly after we do achieve Independence, the wilder elements within the Orange Order will initiate a Northern Ireland-style, Scottish version of the Troubles, in an effort to prevent Independence ever working. They are that stupid and desperate.

    80. Old Pete says:

      Independence parties polling a total of over 50% of constituency votes, then the first minister should phone BoJo informing him that Scotland is leaving the union and negotiations will start on Monday. Only non-violent choice available.

    81. dakk says:

      Capella said
      ‘or at least pro the constitutional reality of the country in question’

      That is what I am hoping Michel Barnier was alluding to when he said EU were open to discussing an extension to Brexit specifically for Scotland, so long as it didn’t breach the UK constitutional legalities.

    82. Breeks says:

      I’m going to build myself a rocket car so if I bang my head against a brick wall that somebody will listen.

      1] Scotland’s forced Brexit is a colonial violation of both the Sovereign Scottish Constitution, and the Treaty of Union. Do you understand? It’s NOT lawful. It subjugates sovereign laws!

      2] Scotland could, and should, declare it has a Constitutional Backstop, backed up by the principle of International Law, that Brexit is unlawful without Scotland’s consent, and Scotland has not given that consent.

      3] With that backstop in place, Westminster can thus and then be given a binary ultimatum. If you abort Brexit, you avoid the subjugation of Scotland and the Union thus survives, (but you lose Brexit), OR, you proceed with Brexit, and the consequence of Scotland’s unconstitutional subjugation is that the Treaty of Union is breached and at an end.

      Item 3, Scotland’s Ultimatum, means Westminster destroys the Union by Brexit, or destroys the Union by recognising Scotland has a sovereign veto. Westminster must toss a double headed coin that favours Scotland. How many of those have we seen in the last 300 years? Carpe Diem.

      NO UDI Do you hear that? NO UDI.

      No Referendum required. The democratic box has been ticked.

      No culpability on Scotland for terminating the Union Treaty which Westminster flagrantly, arbitrarily, and UNILATERALLY breached.

      Why should Scotland choke itself on a UDI but apparently it’s fine and dandy if Westminster is unilaterally subjugating Scotland in direct violation of the Union Treaty??? What empowers their UDI?

      All Scotland requires is a fkg backbone and a modicum of leadership.

      Cue some SNP whelk to chip in “meh, but what would you do eh?”

      I’d deliver a Constitutional Scottish Independence which Scotland’s angry Unionists could only properly blame on Westminster’s arrogant incompetence. What the fk are you gonna do SNP?


      Now write the fkg letter.

    83. Capella says:

      @ dakk – the EU have said on numerous occasions that it is up to us to decide. But they also stress reflecting the constitutional setup. I don’t think they could have made it more explicit.
      The UK doesn’t have a written constitution, only a Treaty.
      The Scottish people voted to remain in the EU. There’s now only one way to do that. Ditch the treaty.

    84. Lorna Campbell says:

      “…for the vast majority of Unionists, NOTHING can ever be permitted to give Scotland a second shot at choosing independence. No matter what.

      And that’s the mindset we have to address when considering what Boris Johnson, or any other Prime Minister, might do when faced with a consistent Yes poll lead…”

      Have been saying this since 2014 and the NO vote. That conclusion was precisely what the result showed in 2014 – that mindset. It has only hardened over time. It is wanting a second referendum – any referendum – that allows these fascists to get away with it. Many will be just too stupid to appreciate the implications of what they are saying, but others will be well aware and use that for their own ends.

      The answer? No fckng referendum of any kind. That was always the trap and it has allowed these fascists to call the tune at every turn. They will never, ever let us go willingly, and just too many up here are Vichy Scots, salivating and grovelling and back-stabbing. There can be no persuading of these people – not dyed-in-the-wool Labourites, not selfish, me-ist Tories, not Tory Lite Lib Dems and not the bulk of rUK voters, who voted overwhelmingly in 2014 against independence. It is not racist to say so. It is the unvarnished truth.

      That is the reality. It will never work Go straight to international law and break the Treaty. Resiling the Treaty would be democratic, legal and legitimate after a string of polls showing we favour independence. What we must do is stop handing the naysayers the right to decide our future. Just stop it. Now.

    85. ahundredthidiot says:

      Only just found out that King Robert Bruce statue spray painted with ‘BLM’ and ‘Racist King’.

    86. robertknight says:

      Capella @ 3:21

      “We, on the other hand have signed a Treaty.”

      Indeed. But have you read it?

      Allow me to point out a part of it which may cause a few, local difficulties shall we say?

      “I. ‘That the two Kingdoms of Scotland and England, shall, upon the first Day of May next ensuing the Date hereof, and for ever after, be united into one Kingdom by the Name of Great-Britain,” (My emphasis)

      If we go down the road of trying to get out of an international Treaty, (without an IndyRef2 and the tacit approval of the UK Parliament), we need to be careful of what our parcel of rogues signed up to.

      The Treaty has in its first article an unequivocal statement of permanency.

      Without the agreement of both signatories, it could prove problematic to reconcile the terms of that specific Article.

      There was no get-out clause in the Treaty which could provide us with an escape route today, sadly.

    87. Bob Mack says:


      Of course Unionists might just do that as well. Creating impressions is one of their specialities.

    88. A Person says:


      Sorry but Robert Knight is right.

      We can’t place our faith in and abstract and well-intentioned “international community”. Look at how the world kowtows to the Saudis, or how the US behaved over that poor English kid run over by an American spy.

      We have to make it in others’ interests to recognise us.

    89. Sarah says:

      @robertknight at 4.22: Robert Peffers would say that the Treaty talks about one kingdom, not one country. The two countries retained their separate and very different laws and legal system i.e. the two separate countries continued to exist, and still do – otherwise they wouldn’t have needed a law to remove 6000 square miles of seabed from Scotland to England in 1997.

    90. Capella says:

      @ robertknight – The Treaty of Union is a contract like any other. If one of the parties breaks the terms of the contract then the other is entitled to declare it null and void. Think of a divorce. There is no requirement to obtain the consent of the other party.

      @ A Person – I’m not suggesting we place our faith in anyone. Simply rely on the rule of law and assert our right to the protection of UN.

    91. Sensibledave says:

      RepublicofScotland 3.07

      You wrote “ We’ve still got four years of Johnson to go, I suggest the main objective now should be finding someone who can get the message across to Sturgeon that next years Scottish elections must be, if a majority is won by independence minded parties, also a independence referendum as well.”

      Genuine question. If a majority isn’t won, does it also count as a referendum?

    92. ahundredthidiot says:

      Bob Mack @ 16:24

      Surely you are not serious? – are you suggesting that orange order loyalist types spray painted his monument? – really?

      I am going to go with the woke scumbag commies behind BLM, hellbent on anarchy and bringing down the West. Spineless cowards hiding behind what originated as a noble cause.

      Are you making excuses for them?

    93. Morgatron says:

      Great article Stu. Westminster fixture – spat my afternoon beer all over the floor.

    94. Bryan Weir says:

      “So, the good news today is that independence polling is finally back to where it was almost exactly four years ago – 26 June 2016, to be precise.”


      “It’s beginning to look like a majority of Scots really do want independence. ”


    95. Breeks says:

      robertknight says:
      21 June, 2020 at 4:22 pm

      Allow me to point out a part of it which may cause a few, local difficulties shall we say?

      “I. ‘That the two Kingdoms of Scotland and England, shall, upon the first Day of May next ensuing the Date hereof, and for ever after, be united into one Kingdom by the Name of Great-Britain,” (My emphasis).

      Nope. That’s part of the Treaty, and if the Treaty is breached, the Treaty doesn’t exist anymore and it’s “for ever after” is gone with it.

    96. liz says:

      Breeks it’s not us that require a backbone but the current admin in the SNP.

      If they have gerrymandered selection for Holyrood 2021, to exclude Joanna Cherry, we know where they stand, for the status quo.

      Wishart does my nut in, he doesn’t want indy, that’s obvious. I’ll never forget NS backed him for the Speaker position, so read into that what you will.

      I hope Alex S doesn’t wait too much longer.
      We need strong people at the top, not ditherers

    97. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brexit requires a rejection of authentic history and a partisan interpretation of the British constitution, resulting in the constitutional privileging of English cultural values. This is not the agreement Scotland entered into in law. Neither is it coherent or compatible with international law.

      International Journal of Constitutional Law, Volume 12, Issue 1, January 2014, Pages 35–60
      Human rights and the belief in a just world

    98. Ian McCubbin says:

      One thing is sure the SNP needs to unite at senior level and get in place a team of committed independence minded MSPs and MPs to take plan B to fruition.
      It is a fraught route with media and Westminster traps and lies in its path

      Rejection of certain SNP MPs will also be needed.

    99. robertknight says:


      I’m as much an armchair expert as the next, and Mr Peffers had a particular take on matters constitutional which I confess I often found myself unable to agree with.

      The continuation of separate legal systems and jurisdictions were specified in Article 19. Both Article 1 and Article 19 stand as part of the same Treaty, so I’m afraid I don’t quite see your point, forgive me.


      We have laws which deal with contracts, marriage and divorce. We do not have any law which deals with a signatory to the Acts & Articles of Union, be that 1707 or 1800, wishing to secede from that Union.

      The Government of Ireland Act (1920), promptly followed by the Anglo-Irish Treaty (1921), modified the 1800 Act of Union between Ireland and Great Britain. But Ireland (Southern) didn’t simply pick up the ball and walk away.

    100. Alec Lomax says:

      ahundredidiot; you’re well named.

    101. Auld Rock says:

      This is getting to be beyond ridiculous. Will somebody set-out for me and others just how you plan to run a campaign while we are still dealing with Covid-19. I even fear of being able to run the 2021 Holyrood election unless we are back to near normality – schools back, pubs, restaurants, tourism, etc. Covid-19 is doing the yoons work for them, wake-up and smell the Quislings!!!

    102. robertknight says:


      On plenty of occasions the Treaty has been modified, through legislative Acts of the Parliament of Great Britain then by the Parliament of the United Kingdom, all of which received Royal Assent. But “breached”? How so?

    103. Sarah says:

      @ Breeks, liz, capella: I would like to be wrong but… if it was a simple matter of “the Treaty has been breached, so we can go”, don’t you think Joanna Cherry and others would be saying so?

      I’m no legal academic expert [or any kind of expert] but it has been said to me that the pattern of behaviour since 1707 i.e. accepting Westminster system despite all the breaches, means that the terms of the Treaty could be said to have been changed and so it is thought by some in the SNP high heid group that a legal challenge is not likely to be won by us.

      On the other hand, as my comment at 4.35 says, Scotland and England are still two distinct entities as we have our separate laws and legal systems. As a layperson I’d have thought we had an arguable case.

      However my preference is, following a democratic event of any kind that produces a Yes majority, to announce our nation state existence. The quickest such event would be a vote in Holyrood, as I suggested here a few days ago.

      It would be good if a Constitutional Convention were already in existence and gathering consensus on various issues. I don’t like this waiting until May 2021 – who knows what Westminster will do while we are still saying “now is not the time”? I very much fear that the various systems in embryo have not been formed despite having 6 years to have done it. I hope that I am wrong.

    104. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. the Treaty. It is part of international law, so stands above national law, which can not legally be used to remove EU rights from those living in Scotland. Not if one respects socioeconomic law and Natural Law, that is.

      Brexit is simply authoritarian English nationalism enabled through abusive constitutional majoritarianism. Yet Scotland’s judiciary appear ambivalent to the fact. No surprise there really.

      The Union and the Law

      On the 300th anniversary of the 1707 Union, an argument that its legal basis is often misunderstood and that its reconsideration would be far from simple

      A true treaty

      The proper understanding of the legal nature of the Union is that it was an agreement made in 1706-07, not by the parliaments of Scotland and England, but by commissioners appointed by the heads of the executive of the independent states of Scotland and England (both of which offices were then vested in Queen Anne but acting in different capacities).

      The agreement was stated in 25 articles, signed and sealed by almost all of each set of commissioners, with a copy being presented by each set to Queen Anne and accepted by her with warm thanks, in both her capacities.

      That it was a treaty in international law is amply evidenced by the terms of preceding legislation (e.g. Treaty with England Act, APS XI, 295, c 50), by the fact that Queen Anne twice visited the negotiations and enquired for progress with “the Treaty” (D Defoe, History of the Union (1709), Part 2, pp 47, 88), the fact that the Articles themselves (e.g. articles XIV, XV, XVIII, XXII) refer repeatedly to “this Treaty”, and that it is so referred to in other related legislation.

      The word “article” is the proper technical term for a part of a Treaty, whereas “section” is proper for a part of an Act in domestic law. The agreement conformed to all requisites for a treaty in international law (Lord McNair, Law of Treaties (1961), 40; also T B Smith, “The Union of 1707 as Fundamental Law” [1957] Public Law 99, reprinted in his Studies Critical and Comparative, 1; Walker Trs v Lord Advocate 1912 SC (HL) 12). Neither parliament had participated in discussing the terms and conditions of the agreement. It was not given Royal Assent.

    105. susan says:

      My fear also @Sarah. They appear to have done NOTHING since 2014 to move independence on, just prevaricate.

    106. jimbo says:

      Why are you not sharing the results of the other question asked in the poll? Instead of votes/seats on whether opinion polling would see a shift?

    107. chossy says:

      Would you consider that if a a poll climbed to 60+ % the UK government simply couldn’t ignore that and when the vote is cast and we leave it will be spun in a way which reflects well on both countries, The UK can see that one of it’s members wishes to leave and will gracefully let it move on and Scotland can take charge of it’s destiny. This plays out well for both and assures good trade and relationships between the two going forward opposed to a rough departure. That’s the game.

    108. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’d suggest the rule-of-law is a positive and beneficial force, which doesn’t work if folk choose when to support it or a 60% ‘gold standard’. It’s an all or nothing kind of deal, as with human rights, which are inter-related and belong to the individual. Brexit denies Scots have a legally defensible identity, so Westminster does not consider those living in Scotland have a legal right to legal rights. I’m just not happy with that in the slightest.

    109. Andrew Morton says:

      Gordon at 12:42 says, ‘Personally I believe Unionists are deliberately suggesting no peaceful route for Scotland.
      As they did to every other former occupied territory. (Sadly)’

      Not so, where a territory was no longer showing a profit they were very glad to get rid of it.

    110. A Person says:


      With all due respect you have missed the point of the article.

      The SNP leadership insist that we can only gain our independence via a referendum authorised by Westminster.

      No Tory PM has anything to gain from granting an indyref. The only outcome would be that they would lose the support of the third or so of the Scottish population who vote for them solely to stop independence.

      How does the percentage in favour of Indy change this? It doesn’t. “They simply couldn’t ignore that”- why couldn’t they?

    111. Republicofscotland says:

      “This is getting to be beyond ridiculous. Will somebody set-out for me and others just how you plan to run a campaign while we are still dealing with Covid-19. I even fear of being able to run the 2021 Holyrood election unless we are back to near normality – schools back, pubs, restaurants, tourism, etc. Covid-19 is doing the yoons work for them, wake-up and smell the Quislings!!!”

      Auld Rock.

      I don’t know if you’ve noticed or not but Johnson hasn’t stopped paused or delayed in any way the post Brexit deal talks with the EU.

      Come May next year it should perfectly feasible (masks if required) to hold a Scottish election. Currently we see thousands of people pass through hundreds of supermarkets everyday in Scotland, even though the virus is still active, yet thankfully the death rates are reducing, I’m sure some sort of social distancing or the one or two metre rule, if still needed can be implemented.

      The real worry is how is Sturgeon going to play out next years elections with Scottish independence in mind. I personally think she’ll get again make promises that she won’t keep on independence.

    112. robertknight says:

      It’s such a shame that in appointing Commissioners to act on behalf of the Parliament of Scotland, Her Grace, Anne, Queen of Scots, didn’t include an individual with the foresight to slip in an ‘EU/Brexit style Article 50’ among the other 25 Articles.

      Life some three centuries later would’ve been so much simpler.

    113. Mike d says:

      Joseph O luain 3.13pm. Well I hold an Irish passport and I agree with your Iraqi barber

    114. Republicofscotland says:

      Dan@ 6.33pm.

      Thanks Dan for the link, I vaguely recall a country holding an election, though, I couldn’t remember which one it was.

    115. Joseph says:

      I have never known an independence Party to be so quite on the subject of Independence.

      Why should a virus shut down all debate on Scottish Independence?

      Why can’t Sturgeon get herself in front of a camera (queen Lizzie style) and broadcast a speech on how an independent Scotland can manage her own way out of this economic crisis which would involve applying for membership of the EU.

      About how England will hold us back and actually destroy our economy.

      Anything will do, but at least keep the subject of Independence relevant.

    116. Serbians started casting ballots on Sunday in the first national elections in the European continent since the outbreak of the COVID-19 pandemic,

      in total, 6,584,376 people are eligible to vote at the 12th parliamentary elections since the establishment of the multi-party system in Serbia, which were previously scheduled for April 26 but were postponed due to the COVID-19 pandemic.

    117. Breeks says:

      I don’t know why we’re at this stage of proceedings, yet still unsure about where we stand constitutionally. It’s inexcusable really. I say it repeatedly, we are putting off til last the things we ought to have done first.

      I know it’s the “big one”, and a Constitutional death of the Union might be unpalatable to some, but a Nations Constitution stands for something, or it doesn’t.

      People shy away from the Courts, but Joanna Cherry has twice steered a Scots Law Action through UK Legislation, sidestepped the UK Supreme Court, and had Westminster bound to respect the jurisdiction of Scots Law.

      That doesn’t happen by random chance. It happens because Scotland has a Constitution which is extant and retains potency in law even if that potency is doubted by ‘adopted convention’. Isn’t that the very essence of the Union Treaty itself?

      Ask yourself a question. Why does the Union offer protection to Scots Law and Religion? Because it has to, or else articulate how the sovereignty of Scotland was subjugated. It cannot do that because it never was subjugated, but instead was mired in sophistry and shored up by bribery and corruption and expedient ad-hoc conventions made up to negotiate the awkward details.

      The provisions made in the Articles are no different in essence from the ‘convention’ of Westminster Parliamentary Sovereignty. They are necessary “workarounds” which enable the Union to function while avoiding the nitty-gritty Constitutional Absolutes which are not compatible with Union but which cannot be done away with because they are Constitutional Absolutes that cannot be undone.

      My faith in Joanna Cherry stems from the fact she has successfully steered these two ‘pilot’ actions through the Courts, and won both of them. Perhaps the reason she hasn’t gone further is because she’s been told not to… I don’t know. In fairness, it’s not for the faint hearted because it would be a big scary court case too… Especially if you’re surrounded by doubters and naysayers.

      But for the life of me, I cannot fathom what the SNP is playing at. Catalonia would give their eye teeth to have a famous and internationally respected written Constitution like the Declaration of Arbroath and the provenance and celebrity of a Nation like Scotland, yet here in Scotland we regard it as an irrelevant curiosity we’re not even prepared to test. It’s ludicrous.

    118. Republicofscotland says:

      How the masses can get the point across to Sturgeon that we want next years Scottish elections to act as a independence referendum if the independence minded parties win a majority of seats.

      It would appear that only Angus B. Mac Neil and Chris McEleny, one a SNP MP, the other a councillor have voiced a Plan B continuously. SNP Ministers and SNP MSPs have been very quiet on the subject of pushing a Plan B. Sturgeon herself has totally rejected it, hoping for the magical unicorn 60% and a belief that a man of Johnson’s character will somehow come around to agreeing to a independence referendum in the end, he won’t.

      One form of action that gives us a voice is the AUOB marches, placards and chanting that we want next years Scottish elections to count as a independence referendum will at least get our message across. Another route is demos between now and May next year outside Bute House, and Holyrood, again calling for the elections to represent a referendum. E-mailing or writing a letter to your local MSP is another.

      We elected the SNP not just on the premise of good governance, but also that they would lead us to independence, if that means we need to get proactive by using the above then so be it. Independence won’t fall onto our lap, we need to go out and get it.

    119. Lorna Campbell says:

      Breeks: “I. ‘That the two Kingdoms of Scotland and England, shall, upon the first Day of May next ensuing the Date hereof, and for ever after, be united into one Kingdom by the Name of Great-Britain,” (My emphasis)

      That form of enforcement is null nd void I today’s world, Breeks, and our case would be based o the breaching of the Treaty terms themselves by England and, then. by England-as-the-UK. We would also have the backing of the UN Charter on self-determination an on human rights. International law is also, to a vast extent, on our side in relation to resources within our territorial waters and on our land area.

      Let’s think about it like this: had the EU suddenly and without warning decided that the UK should have no voice whatsoever on any agreement reached with the other members, then I’d like to bet that you’d call that onerous, as would I, and most reasonable people. But that is not what Brexit is about, is it? The EU has never done to the UK what England-as-the-UK does to us on a tediously regular basis. Yet, you don’t believe the Treaty can be overturned.

      The late Professor David Walker, constitutional expert, said that England’s MPs had totally misinterpreted the spirit and rules of the Treaty itself by claiming that the Acts (translating the Treaty into domestic law) superseded the Treaty. Any lawyer will tell you that primary legislation (Treaty) cannot be superseded by secondary legislation (Acts). Even devolution, according to the Treaty terms is null and void because, as a partner and original authority to the Treaty and Union, Scotland cannot devolve itself from itself. David Cameron let the cat out of the bag on the partnership aspect of the Treaty by commissioning the Crawford and Boyle Report.

      No extant Treaty, no commission possible. No subsumption of Scotland by a Greater England, the Treaty remains as is. The Treaty remains as is, Scotland is a full partner with England. Scotland is a full partner with England, England cannot force through Brexit – at least, not for us, nor can we be voiceless, nor can we be denied a referendum, if we choose. Hold a ratifying/confirmatory one AFTER independence, after the Treaty has beeb resiled on the grounds of England’s outrageous breaching and totally ultra vires behaviour for over 300 years.

      Don’t listen to the siren voices. They are mistaken and credulous at best, lying through their ivories, at worst. Me, I’d plump for the second. They are lying now, and they have always lied about the reality of both the Union and the Treaty. Have the Treaty ‘sound’ in law, and you will find out just how much you have been duped and for how long. One thing is certain, however we get independence, England-as-the-UK will try to use that Treaty against us in order to get its sticky paws on every resource we have. So, move on it now or we will regret it as we have never regretted anything, not even that fckng NO vote of 2014. Excuse my French.

    120. robbo says:

      @ Breeks 6.52

      So what is your thoughts on the Forward As One case currently going through the courts?

    121. robbo says:

      And the same to Lorna Campbell?

      What’s your thoughts?

    122. Republicofscotland says:

      “My faith in Joanna Cherry stems from the fact she has successfully steered these two ‘pilot’ actions through the Courts, and won both of them. Perhaps the reason she hasn’t gone further is because she’s been told not to… I don’t know. In fairness, it’s not for the faint hearted because it would be a big scary court case too… Especially if you’re surrounded by doubters and naysayers.”


      The final say on Scotland, and independence if you like, cannot not be taken down the judicial route that leads to the Supreme court in England, for that would leave us at mercy of English law makers, no the final say must be ours and ours alone.

      We must persuade Sturgeon that next years election are the equivalent of a independence referendum, for once Sturgeon gets her feet back under the table of Bute House again next year, she’ll without doubt become once again disinterested in Scottish independence until the elections come around again in 2025.

      As for Scots laws I recall Sir Walter Scott, if memory serves, campaigned and saved it and the Scottish pound, he also rediscovered Scotland’s honours which were hidden away in Scotland.

    123. Robert Louis says:

      But, but, but, hang on a second, Pete Wishart has assured us all, that London WILL grant a section 30, sometime…soon. And let’s face it, Pete Wishart is right, and ALWAYS right. Indeed, so RIGHT is Pete Wishart, that if anybody dares to question his nonsense on twitter, no matter how nicely worded, he immediately blocks them. That’s how very right, Pete is.

      And THAT is the freaking problem. The SNP’s longest serving MP, simply refuses to even consider re-examining his own ‘logic’ or bizarre beliefs.

      So, next week the polls could show 60 or 70% in favour of independence, and we still could NEVER be independent according to Pete Wishart, unless we have a section 30. And NOBODY in Scotland, apart from Pete Wishart thinks that will ever happen.

      So, tell me then, just what would be the point in voting SNP next year. If they win a majority of seats, then we are exactly where we are now, waiting for a section 30, which will never arrive. According to the SNP leadership, their is no other way. So, voting SNP next year is pointless, unless you happen to like some of their other policies.

      Until the SNP leadership change their stance and look at other democratic means to assert Scotland’s sovereignty, we are quite literally stuck. Following the SNP’s and Pete Wishart’s own ‘logic’, even if every single Scot demands independence, it cannot happen because London says no to a section 30. That is how stupid their current position is.

      It is patent nonsense, of the very highest order. In reality, this p*sh about needing a section 30, is just a tawdry excuse for the SNP to do nothing for independence, until a time of their own choosing. What the people of Scotland want matters not one jot, and in that light, they are no better than the Tories in London.

      Can the SNP even see the stupidity of their position? Meanwhile, the Tories just laugh at them, knowing they need to simply do nothing.

    124. bipod says:

      We had a heat wave in may that saw thousands flock outdoors and to the beaches and massive BLM protests earlier this month, if the second wave doomsday fanatics are to be believed you would think we would seen the second wave by now,, still nothing.

      I also see that Spain has decided to reopen its economy to tourists. Meanwhile in Scotland nicola is very nonchalant about her policies strangling of the economy and is still desperately trying to disguise her dithering as caution. Time to end the lockdown now nicola.

    125. Robert Louis says:

      Joseph at 303pm,

      Either Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t care about indy supporters or she, as leader of the SNP, is beyond incompetent.

      The anger will continue to grow. In my opinion, her position as leader of the SNP is simply untenable. She is now a hindrance to independence. Six years, and she has done not one thing to move independence forward.

    126. Ron Maclean says:

      ‘Unionists do not believe democracy applies to the Scottish constitution ‘ – Rev. Stuart Campbell today.

      As good a starting point as any after three hundred years of unionist rule.

      The 2016 UK Brexit referendum resulted in 51.9% of votes cast being in favour of leaving the European Union. Scotland voted in favour of the UK staying in the EU by 62% to 38% with all 32 council areas backing remain. In just over six months time we will be taken out of the EU.

      Nicola Sturgeon said Scotland had delivered a “strong unequivocal vote” to remain in the EU. At a news conference in Edinburgh, Ms Sturgeon also said: “It is, therefore, a statement of the obvious that a second referendum must be on the table, and it is on the table” – BBC 24 June 2016.

      It is worth recalling that before becoming Prime Minister Theresa May said in a speech to the Scottish Conservative Conference held in Troon on 24 March 2012 “A future in which Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England continue to flourish side-by-side as equal partners.” To my knowledge that statement has not been contradicted. Unfortunately it has not been honoured.

      In the foreword to ‘Scotland’s Place in Europe’ ( – 20 Dec 2016) First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said
      ‘… we are determined to maintain Scotland’s current position in the European Single Market.’
      ‘The Scottish Government was elected in May (2016) on a manifesto which said in relation to independence:
      “The Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum […] if there is a significant and material change in circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.”
      “There is no question , therefore, about the legitimacy of the Scottish Parliament and the people of Scotland considering the question of independence in these circumstances.”

      As we will leave the EU at the end of this year it seems fair to ask what has changed and why have we surrendered to the Westminster government?

      Surely being taken out of the EU against our will is sufficient reason to withdraw from the Union and declare independence. That would allow us to seek membership of the EU in a capacity acceptable to the Scottish people and the EU.

      Craig Murray explained the procedure in his blog of17.12.18). B Dtt gave some necessary, but surmountable, caveats in a recent post.

      I know Ms Sturgeon is very busy, and currently doing very well, dealing with Covid 19. That’s reaction. To progress toward independence we need action and, if we don’t already have one, an action plan. Time is short. She could enlist the services of her underemployed MPs. Perhaps Joanna Cherry and Angus Brendan Macneil, with the help of Chris McEleny would be willing to help her achieve the primary aim of the SNP’s Constitution.

      What is she waiting for?

    127. Armitage Shanks says:

      red sunset says:
      21 June, 2020 at 1:08 pm
      Hi Red,

      I’m English, lived and brought up my family in rural Scotland for around 20 years.

      Worked paid my taxes, my children and other ‘settlers’ helped keep the local primary school and pub open, (both closed now).

      I would vote Yes for Scottish Independence given the chance.

      We are not all from the Shires pockets stuffed with money.

      Im back across the Border for now, for work, needs must.

    128. liz says:

      I know some have said they thought NS is a plant, MI5 etc, I don’t believe she is.

      It’s become apparent with her handling of Covid, that she is so risk averse as to be almost comatose.
      We have in total NINE patients in ICU with suspected Covid in the whole of Scotland and she will not deviate one iota from her plan.

      Mike Russell saying WM must – no they don’t- extend furlough until October – give us a break!

      I believe she would love to get us indy, her legacy would be assured for ever, but she wants someone to hand it to her on a plate.
      She wants to make an omelette without breaking eggs.

    129. Robert Louis says:

      Agree with breeks and others. A treaty between two countries is just that, an agreement. It can be ended by either party. Thnking that somehow Scotland cannot do so, is part of the unionist mindset, that somehow Scotland is subservient to England;s wishes.

      Many international treaties have been ended. Of course, sometimes, one or more of the interested parties is unhappy, but that does NOT mean they can BLOCK one partner from leaving. It doesn’t matter what a treaty says. Of course some treaties might say, just like in business agreements, that early termination means charges are due, but luckily for Scotland, their are no such terms in the union with England treaty.

      Once you understand that, and stop thinking Scotland is magically the only country in the world that signed a treaty, which it can never, ever, ever end, then independence becomes straightforward. In other words, stop thinking like unionists. Scotland OR indeed England could end the union treaty whenever it wanted, and if it were England doing so, it most certainly would not spend six freaking years begging Scotland’s permission.

    130. Robert Louis says:

      Liz at 750pm,

      Totally agree with your last paragraph. For the reasons you state, NS will not be the person to lead Scotland to independence. Not in a million years.

    131. robbo says:

      bipod says:
      21 June, 2020 at 7:38 pm
      We had a heat wave in may that saw thousands flock outdoors and to the beaches and massive BLM protests earlier this month, if the second wave doomsday fanatics are to be believed you would think we would seen the second wave by now,


      Seems you still don’t understand what the term second wave means.

      To prevent a second wave is not the same as a surge in first wave.We’re still in the first wave,it hasn’t gone away.
      You must suppress the first wave down as far as you can so if a second wave does appear you have systems in place to control it.

      America ,Brazil are prime examples of countries that haven’t got a grip of first wave yet and cases are exploding again at same time as their relaxing restrictions too early.

      A balance needs to be found between economy and health. The two are interlinked,its not a competition.

      I think NS is well aware of the economic damage ,but values health of the nation just as much as economy.

      Patience is a virtue,treasure it ,or you will have no people to run a economy. An economy needs healthy people, not dead and sick people.

    132. Robert Louis says:

      Ron McLean at 742pm,

      An excellent post.

    133. John Digsby says:

      I can’t understand the endless sophistry by some trying to make a pseudo-legal argument about the Treaty being violated, or Scots sovereignty being violated because of the act of Brexit.

      Scotland didn’t cast a vote on staying in the EU as Scotland. The populace of the entity known as the UK (which includes Scitland) was asked if the *UNITED KINGDOM* should remain or leave. The vote was cast, the result is that the UK leaves. All legitimate even if we disagree in our particular part of the island.

      It would indeed be a democratic outrage if we’d been asked if Scotland wanted to be in the EU rather than the UK and Westminster had gone ‘nah’. But that didn’t happen – so where is the violation?

      And beware trying to make the argument that Acts of the Westminster Parliament aren’t enforceable in any way because the treaty comes first – that’s how we lose Holyrood, which in its current form exists only because of the Scotland Act. And if the Treaty is above that, well…the Treaty is pretty clear that there’s o Scottish Parliament, right?

    134. Breeks says:

      robbo says:
      21 June, 2020 at 7:19 pm
      @ Breeks 6.52

      So what is your thoughts on the Forward As One case currently going through the courts

      I support Martin Keatings, 100%. He’s doing the right thing by what he believes, but I myself think focussing on Section 30 of the devolved constitution of the Scotland Act is relevant to a referendum, but I don’t see how a referendum can now save us in time. To be blunt, I don’t care about empowering Holyrood. Holyrood seems to be powering it’s way toward subservience below the Palace of Westminster, with precious little regard for the issue of sovereignty.

      Nevertheless, the test case such as it is, could spark a chain reaction of constitutional ramifications, (as I hoped Joanna Cherry’s actions also might), and the Union end up in trouble that way, but I think it’s a safe bet UK Courts are not going to let that happen, and only answer the specific questions they’re asked.

      I also don’t want to fight the UK using the UK’s law or Tony Blair’s Supreme Court. I think Scotland would fare much better with unadulterated Scots Law in a non-UK Court, either at the UN or Europe, like Joanna Cherry testing whether Article 50 could be revoked.

      Brexit gives such vitality to the Constitutional question it is thoroughly inexcusable that we seem to be letting Brexit wash over us before we begin to fight. That seems utterly crazy.

      Scotland should be fighting for it’s life across all theatres of Union involvement, no quarter asked or given, but instead we’re dithering like sheep with no initiative or drive, and distilling Independence down to one vote on one day with an ephemeral electorate which is thoroughly indoctrinated by UK Propaganda and don’t really know what they’re voting for. Martin Keatings is at least trying to open up a second theatre of operations, and for that he should be applauded.

    135. Lothianlad says:

      Surely now, I mean Now, an SNP leader, and SNP SG Fm would be shouting Independence from the rooftops. ??

      People need to understand. Sturgeon was helped to where she is by the brit secret service. She was young and passionate, then ruthless in pursuit of power.

      The brit secret service saw this and groomed her for the role so they could own her.

      Be under no.illusions, the brit secret service infiltrated and influences All its threats and enemies.

      Look at the irish struggle from independence from British rule.

      Powerful.people working for or owned by the british state are at work within the SNP.

      Ask yourself how it could possibly be the case with 9 mandates of staggeringly large proportions, an EU remain mandate in Scotland, an consistently high pulling for independence not be seized upon and advanced by an SNP FM???

      The way Alex has beed treated and the stranglehold sturgeaonists have control of local branches mean that removing her will be very hard.

      Nature deniers and careerists pollute a noble independence cause and must be removed from influencing policy.

      The first casualty of the current strategy is Independence!!

      It’s no surprise we are where we are, but the brit secret service own sturgeon and many others in the SG

      Sturgeon is the darling of the brit media because they know she is the unions safest bet!!

      Time to wake the troops, our biggest enemy is Within!

    136. Stoker says:

      @ Auld Rock on 21 June, 2020 at 5:25 pm:

      Since you believe it’s fine to call me and others ‘("Quizmaster" - Ed)s’ then you’ll not mind when i tell you to get yerself tae fuck yah muppet. You are correct though, it is getting beyond ridiculous.

      It has gone way beyond ridiculous with The Sturgeon Crevice Society pumping the Covid-19 mantra whilst always ignoring the fact she’s had 6-years to do something that would propel us closer to our goal. She has done absolutely nothing.

      And do you not realise that by pumping the Covid-19 or Brexit mantra you are admitting Sturgeon is a one trick pony? If all she can do is focus on one thing at a time she needs binned. Every single country on this planet have had to deal with the same problems whilst taking care of business.

      And btw, as far as I know not one single person has said or is truly expecting a referendum to be in progress at this very moment in time. But there is absolutely no reason whatsoever, other than prolonging ones reign, why Sturgeon & Co should not be using the current situation to show more reasons why we’re better off away from London.

      Lots of us are very angry about Sturgeons seemingly apathetic approach to our cause using and abusing our support and votes for her own ends. We expect something in return and that something has to be about progress towards taking back our right of self-determination.

      And PLEASE don’t give me utter shit about “Oh i could just see it if she were to promote indy just now during Covid-19 the media would have a field day and would be so against her and us and the the farmers’ animals and our Scottish statues and they’d really go to town on the clothes she wears and and and but but but. They would absolutely hammer us blah blah blah.”

      NEWSFLASH: Where have you been for the past ten years? HIBERFUCKINNATION? They are already against us and they regularly destroy us and all things Scotland on a daily basis 24/7. All who now support Scotland taking back our right of self-determination these days know all about the media thanks mainly to WOS, Prof Robertson and that other fella GAPonsonby who wrote the book London Calling. Although not just for his book but his online efforts on NewsNet, his Twitter feed and elsewhere.

      We all collectively and individually now have the ability to counter and mock that media. Never forget the world is always watching and they’ll see it too. It’s not nineteen canteen anymore. We can destroy the media faster than they can put the lies together. We have far more support from outwith Scotland than a lot of Indy supporters realise.

      So you’ll forgive us if we have no desire to become members of The Sturgeon Crevice Society but we’re just a tad miffed at being taken for pure mugs by Queen Nic & her Wokeratie. Sitting on several democratically achieved mandates, and against all the odds too, whilst not progressing the cause OR not keeping those who gave her those mandates in the loop is a miracle she’s still in post. In some other countries around the world she’d be lynched by now, and rightly so.

      Now if you expect me to be more civil towards you in future then please readjust your own blind rantings and desist from calling other indy supporters “("Quizmaster" - Ed)s” just because we want nothing to do with your way of thinking.

    137. robbo says:

      Breeks says:
      21 June, 2020 at 8:08 pm

      robbo says:
      21 June, 2020 at 7:19 pm
      @ Breeks 6.52

      So what is your thoughts on the Forward As One case currently going through the courts


      Thanks for the reply.It certainly will expose the positions of both Scot Gov and UK gov(albeit we already know UK’s position)

      Interesting times.I don’t care what route we go down,everyone is fraught with danger. The more pincer moves we have on the go the better.They need to be worn into the ground. The Irish never gave in.

      They the rUK can can have their English brexit,we’ll have our Independence, thanks very much.

    138. Joseph says:

      Well said

      Surely, but surely some SNP MP is reading this site and is passing on the word to Sturgeon that the natives are getting very very restless.

    139. bipod says:

      There you go again with the dooms day rhetoric robbo. For the vast overwhelming majority of economically active people this virus is no more dangerous than the flu, this was established months ago. It still doesn’t stop the lockdown fanatics from pretending like this is the second coming of the spanish flu though. And you still haven’t acknowledged the substance of my post if the second wave/peak is real then why haven’t we seen it with the increased public activity. Could it be that lockdowns don’t actually suppress the virus.

      When can we say that the first wave has ended. We are now well below what is considered epidemic levels of a virus. Second wave, second peak, second peak of the first wave, call it whatever you like it is just made up jargon that nicola is using to extend the lockdown. Nicola doesn’t want to admit that she made a mistake, overreacted and strangled the economy and ruined thousands of lives because that would damage her political image thats why we are being subjected to this glacially slow easing of lockdown and farcical social distancing/”bubbling” rules that almost no one follows.

      I don’t think nicola has a clear grasp on the economic damage she is doing to Scotland, she thinks that furlough and extending for as long as possible is the answer to all of our problems. The magic furlough money is being borrowed against all of our futures and there will be a reckoning when it inevitable does end.

    140. Lorna Campbell says:

      Robbo: my take is that, any case that remains in the domestic legal sphere will be lost because of parliamentary sovereignty and the uselessness of Sewel. The Scotland Act is not worth the paper it was written on as far as opposing anything at all the UKG decides to do. I could well be wrong. We’ll see. I wouldn’t get my hopes up. Once this pandemic is under some kind of control, a new Treaty of Union is coming down the tracks, courtesy of the HoL, to meet us – this time, a domestic law one that will ensure that Westminster’s sticky paws remain in control of the UK. All kinds of under-the-radar perfidy is being readied.

    141. robertknight says:

      Lorna Campbell @ 7;16

      For over nine decades there have existed political parties in Scotland who have sought to restore to our country the status of an independent, sovereign State.

      In all that time, and despite the relevant documentation being freely available to the best legal minds in the country for over three generations, I’m not aware of a single definitive and widely accepted interpretation of the Articles of the Act of Union in relation to any supposed or actual breech, any proposed dissolution or any proposed repeal.

      Where have all the legal experts gone?

      Where have all the constitutional lawyers and international treaty specialists disappeared to?

      (No offence to anyone here – but they’re not to be found on Wings)

      Surely, at some point over the past 92 years, a learned someone would have picked over the bones of the Treaty and identified a concrete means whereby Scotland can walk away and, what is more, would have let all those wanting to know, know.

      Q) Where is the route map out of the Treaty that our pro-Indy politicians and sympathetic legal and constitutional experts have had 92 years to plot?

      A) It doesn’t exist – because identifying an ‘escape route’ via the Treaty is simply a red-herring.

    142. Ron Maclean says:

      For those relying on international law or any other law to get us out of the Union:

      Linked in today – Forum – ‘Foreign Office quietly rejects International Court ruling to hand back Chagos Islands’.

    143. CameronB Brodie says:

      Scotland’s information environment is strictly controlled to support a yoon perspective, so how can you be certain such legal insight has not been arrived at? I had it pretty well worked out over a quarter of a century ago.

      The Treaty was agreed between two equal, sovereign, states. Subsequently, a respect for Natural Law indicates that the ‘national law’ of this new state, can not favour either nation while remaining coherent with the obligations of Treaty law. Brexit breaks these obligations and the Treaty.


    144. Colin Alexander says:


      It can be argued the reason how the Treaty of Union made special provisions for Presbyterianism and Scots Law was not for constitutional reasons but practical ones. Divide and conquer by buying off the ruling elite.

      They bought off the two most powerful institutions in Scotland outside parliament with ultimately worthless guarantees that the UK Imperial Parliament would not interfere with their prestigious status and immense power in Scottish society.

      Just as they have bought off many of Scotland’s politicians with careers as colonial administrators at Holyrood.

    145. ben madigan says:

      I don’t know if anyone has already cited this analysis of the various plans A, B C etc. The writer’s conclusion will surprise!

      He does not refer in any way to Breek’s ideas (3.40) about resiling from the Treaty by means o , Scotland’s Ultimatum, “Westminster destroys the Union by Brexit, or destroys the Union by recognising Scotland has a sovereign veto. Westminster must toss a double headed coin that favours Scotland. How many of those have we seen in the last 300 years? Carpe Diem”.

      Which may mean the idea is not spreading and being discussed, so maybe we should all make an effort to bring it to people’s notice.

    146. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ron Maclean
      This is where we are at, a stand-off with an international pariah, a.k.a. Westminster. Scotland is not the Chagos Islands though.

      I was listening to the PM announce this earlier, and he could sell his granny without blushing. Linking overseas development with foreign policy is a great way of promoting an ethical foreign policy, but only if you respect international law and human rights. Which Westminster considers itself to be above. So Scotland really must resist Brexit, or be prepared to contribute to the weakening of the international order and the rule-of-law.

    147. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Angus MacNeil is becoming more vocal in his criticism of Pete Wishart.

      Praying to all known gods that this could be the start of the split which will spark a serious and open leadership debate.

    148. Bob Mack says:

      Was it not Joann Cherry who recently stated that after Civic was over the people would be ready for radical change in Scotland, and the WHO had to be ready to meet that change.

      She was of course criticised by the usual suspects for promoting Indy during the pandemic, including Pamela Nash and some SNP.

      Personally I think she is the type of person we need to keep Indy to the fore, and a potential formidable leader.

    149. Bob Mack says:

      Sorry Covid.

    150. Bob Mack says:

      Wife’s bloody tablet playing silly beggars with my words.

      Hopefully my own will re charge very quickly.

    151. Stoker says:

      CameronB Brodie Wrote on 21 June, 2020 at 5:46 pm:

      “re. the Treaty. It is part of international law, so stands above national law, which can not legally be used to remove EU rights from those living in Scotland.”

      Firstly, to see if I’m understanding this correctly, what you are teaching us here is that we (Scotland), due to Brexit vote, are currently being held in an illegal position by Westminster?

      Secondly, do you have a link where it shows, as fact, that this is indeed the case. A modern one, not one written in nineteen-canteen in a manor most of us can’t understand &/or find off-putting?

      And thirdly, are you trained and qualified in matters pertaining to this area of law?

      These are genuine questions of interest so please if you answer, Cammy, keep it understandable in basic laypersons terms as I struggle to understand your level of babble. 🙂

    152. Bob Mack says:

      International law cannot be enforced because although it can make a ruling there is no common executive to enforce that ruling. Domestic National law does have that facility.

    153. shug says:

      Nicola is playing blinder just now
      Her aim is not to win over wingers and yessers. Her aim is to win over no and waverers.
      If she talks about indy she will be attacked for exploiting the virus so she says nothing and Carlaw does and looks like a diddy!
      I hope she crashes the Scottish government before the end of the year and calls an election on Brexit before we exit. If not indy must be on the manifesto page 1 or she is out
      Of course she might resign before the end of the year!!

    154. Stoker says:

      @ Joseph on 21 June, 2020 at 8:38 pm

      Don’t go holding your breath. For about 3 or 4 weeks now Angus MacNeil has been having a pop, very publicly, at various SNP colleagues and the dilly-dally current tactics.

      A few of us have asked him if he’d be interested in the leadership but of course he was never going to answer was he?

      I think that’s as close as we get but you never know, more often than not it only takes the right word at the right time to start the ball rolling. Or a swift kick to the correct balls. lol 😉

    155. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi shug at 9:40 pm.

      Your comment got me wondering…

      Who would come out the winner if Nicola Sturgeon and Rev Stu were playing poker?

    156. Stoker says:

      @ Shug

      Apologies for not responding to your tweet a couple of topics ago. It was very late on when i seen it the next day so assumed you’d be gone and didn’t bother. Just so you know I wasn’t deliberately ignoring you.

      BTW, your post there at 9:40 pm, thanks for the laugh regarding your first sentence. More wishful thinking than factual. I’ll gladly put my hands up if i’m wrong but time will tell.

    157. Dan says:

      Soz for length of post, it eh developed. 🙂

      I’ve been doing an inventory check of the tool box. That’s oor all too often ignored and rarely opened dusty Saltired tool box sitting in the corner, not the shiny yin on the table with the Master’s tools in it that folk seem so attracted to and hypnotised by like moths to light n’ flies roon shite.
      We’ve certainly got a lot of tools… of that there is no doubt. Some aren’t the sharpest, and some are no longer fit for purpose and are akin to those astutely described in the lesser played Madonna B side – I’m an Imperial Spanner in a Metric World.

      For some reason nae individual cunt seems able to lift the mucklest of muckle ‘hings in oor box… So that Humongous Sovereignty Spanner remains firmly embedded doon in the darkest chamber for noo, a wee bity likes when yon Merlin stuck Excalibur to an anvil on boulder with the first prototype tube of Superglue that only Art had a solvent to dissolve and thus lift the sword*.
      *Disclaimer 1. I done geography at school so I cannot claim historically this to be 100% accurate fact.
      To be honest, the inability of a solitary Scot out of 5.5 million Scots lifting the HSS may in fact be no bad thing, coz you can bet yer hoose that 5.499,999 million other Scots would manage to muster up 5.499,999 million pathetically tedious reasons for the individual not to have the sword.
      Sigh, Such a Parcel o’ Muppets in a Nation…

      But I digress, where was I goin’ with this… Aye, that’s it, seeing as the “great discussion” a few weeks back re. the seemingly ethereal Regional List Party concept has all but dried up like a drought ravaged desert, or confirmed shags on a covid affected dating site, the impetus to exert leverage on the SNP to wise the fuck up just doesn’t feel like pressure is being maintained.

      We know that individuals directing questions to the SNP at various levels will produce the equivalent level of response from them as one can expect from farting at the olfactorily challenged to gain their attention. = >Nadda.
      So I again look to people power, but this time rather than trying to herd an entire Nation of Wildcat avec Muppet DNA strands, with all their individual idiosyncrasies, we break it down into more manageable numbers defined by the borders of the Regional List Areas.
      In each specific Region, all the YES groups with their bespoke local knowledge and connections could work together to produce the bones of a strategy ready to be implemented behind whatever Pro-Indy Regional List Party best suits their areas.*

      *Disclaimer 2. Of course this suggestion only works if the YES Groups aren’t filled with TFM SNP Beigeists who would smother and stifle such a plan, so they could continue to use the magnificently useless campaigning strategy (in most regions) of punting “Both Votes SNP” pens and pissing away based on current polling the best part of a million second votes for just a few seats.

    158. CameronB Brodie says:

      What Bod Mack said. 😉

      I don’t have legal qualifications but I do have a training in critical legal theory, as well as public law, constitutional law, international law, and international human rights law. That was a very long time ago though. So all I can do is point folk in the direction of legal principles, in the hope it might help sway their judgement.

      I believe Westminster has overstepped its’ legal authority regards Brexit. No equal partner can FORCE another to follow a course of action that is against their own best interests.

      The relationship between international law and national law in the case of Kosovo: A constitutional perspective

    159. robbo says:

      Lorna Campbell says:
      21 June, 2020 at 8:40 pm

      Thanks for the reply. You do mention one of my biggest worries in that we get our independence in name only, but of a baron wasteland if we let them take anymore assets and tie them up in well i don’t what would call it.


      Look at the state of this palaver for starters,

    160. robbo says:

      Oil Gas and Energy lobby.

    161. Ian Brotherhood says:

      In recent days the Young Scots for Independence group in Highlands & Islands has appointed two folk who are fully-fledged wokies. Wishart has already met them.

      They’re doubling-down on what looks, to a lot of us, like entryism in the face of ever-growing dissent – if they’re not actually trying to provoke a split then they’re certainly behaving affy like they do.

      One thing’s for sure – the women/girls groups who’ve organised over the past two years are not going to disappear. They’ve shown themselves to be open, accountable, with reps who are prepared to debate the issues. The TRA lobby within the SNP, by contrast, are averse to any form of discussion which requires them to present spokespeople, especially for ‘live’ debate.

      They have – literally – no-one who is prepared to represent them in normal ‘democratic’ discourse. ‘No Debate!’ ??? That’s an untenable position for any senior politician to associate themselves with.

    162. CameronB Brodie says:

      This is only seven years old, so represents a pretty current picture of the current nature and intention of international law.


      Vilnius, Lithuania
      5 September 2013


    163. Colin Alexander says:

      ben madigan

      This blog does give an excellent summary of the various options. However, I think it gets it very slightly wrong regarding UDI.

      If Scotland declared itself independent / sovereign, then the actions of the Scottish Parliament are no longer bound by UK legislation such as The Scotland Act, or UK constitutional practices.

      As an independent sovereign state it would be for Scotland to decide what are the powers and practices of its parliament.

      As the blog points out, if option A ( UK Parliamentary approval) continues to be a no-goer, the other options face the risk that the UK will reject, ignore or attempt to block.

      If that happened, that’s when legal denunciation of the Union / a declaration of Scottish national sovereignty / UDI becomes the only viable option left.

    164. crazycat says:

      @ Dan at 9.57

      the seemingly ethereal Regional List Party concept has all but dried up like a drought ravaged desert

      Has it? The ISP now has a website (which I confess I have not yet looked at), where people can join, and they are expanding their policies.

      There are certainly people who hope it’s dried up!

    165. robertknight says:

      Robbo @ 10:12

      Been saying for months to any who would listen that once Brexit is “done” Boris is done.

      The Tory old-guard and blue-rinse brigade can’t stand him…

      Bumbling, bungling oaf. An adulterer with another Bastard to his name and his mistress, now fiance, ensconced in #10. Tory family values my arse – hardly the idyllic Cameron family Xmas card is it?

      The blonde bombshell and Mayoral investigation haven’t gone away either.

      The Cummings affair and now the paint job at public expense for Brit Farce One, in the midst of a pandemic, might just have tipped the balance against him…

      Thanks for getting Brexit done Boris – don’t let the door to No.10 hit your fat arse on the way out!

    166. Dan says:


      Now now, you’ve cropped the start of my sentence, that’s not all I wrote is it.
      I’ll refer to a previous post from a couple of days back.

    167. Joseph says:

      Not being a member of the SNP at the moment, can I ask who are these Wokes and when did they start to dominate policy changes.

      Being serious here, are they a bunch of young gay radicals or what?

      I haven’t got a looby loo who they are or where they came from.

      Why didn’t they start their own Party.

      Is this the results of the actions of Derek Mackay?

      Concerned Indy supporter…

    168. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brexit re-imagines Britain in the image of English Toydum. As such, it expresses exclusionary paternalism and is divorced from authentic history and Natural Law. So contemporary British nationalism should really be considered a form of totalitarianism. This is a very easy state to fall into if one plays silly buggers with cultural aesthetics and cognitive linguistics.

      Liverpool Law Review volume 38, pages 1–10 (2017)
      Introduction to the Special Issue on Reimagining Justice: Aesthetics and Law

    169. crazycat says:

      @ Dan

      Apologies! I read your post wrongly. Very nice of you to point that out kindly 🙂

    170. Girvan Harris says:

      Q10 is pretty weird – if you are actually trying to obtain views from Unionists, shouldnt you have had an option relating to the concept of a British identity – i.e that Westminster is the expression of democracy for the UK and Unionists are often view themselves as ‘British and Scottish’ .

      Your questions are akin to the old ‘when did you stop beating your dog’ type question – i.e they only allow for answers that make the respondents look illogical or stupid.

      Aside from manners, the main reason to avoid bias in questions is that you end up getting misleading bias in your results.

      But i guess you know all this anyway.

    171. terence callachan says:

      Armitage shanks said

      I’m English, lived and brought up my family in rural Scotland for around 20 years.

      Worked paid my taxes, my children and other ‘settlers’ helped keep the local primary school and pub open, (both closed now).

      I would vote Yes for Scottish Independence given the chance.

      We are not all from the Shires pockets stuffed with money.

      Im back across the Border for now, for work, needs must “

      Hi armitage….just joking…

      I see what you’re saying but

      I’ve lived in many many countries including England
      NOT for a minute do I think that it gives me the right to vote on the future independence of those countries
      I’m not English
      I’m not Maltese
      I’m not Libyan
      I’m not German
      I’m not Irish
      Etc etc etc

    172. terence callachan says:

      Statues statues statues…come on people don’t give them more importance than they deserve
      They’re only bits of rock shaped to look like someone from long ago
      They’re not important

      OK we don’t want people spray painting them but let’s not get it out of proportion
      I would be sad upset that a pavement was spray painted as I would a statue or monument but only because it makes the place look untidy

      We can replace pavements and rocks
      We CANNOT replace people

      People are more important than statues and monuments more valuable

    173. CameronB Brodie says:

      This is a tricky one. Disenfranchising elements of the population along ethnic lines, is exactly what Brexit does, so I can’t support it. However, I kind of like the idea of a minimum length of residency to improve the quality of democratic participation.

      On the limits of constitutional liberalism: in
      search of a constitutional reflexivity,%20M_Limits%20of%20constitutional%20liberalism_Wilkinson_LImits%20of%20constitutional%20liberalism_2015.pdf

    174. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi robbo at 10:12 pm.

      Here’s that eventual link archived…

    175. robbo says:

      bipod says:
      21 June, 2020 at 8:40 pm

      Over 80% don’t agree with you, maybe more actually.Mostly only hard core yoons are raging for obvious reasons.

      In meantime

    176. A2 says:

      I’m afraid doing away with the monarchy will be easier, which of course, isn’t happening either. Although it might be a bit closer if/when charles inherits. No crown = no union, what’s the chances of dissolving one of them? thought not.

      So the only solution is if public opinion down south is in favour of getting rid of us AND they vote for a party/parties that also want rid of us, that’s not happening either. We are stuck, possibly forever.

    177. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Fresh one to slap George Square-obsessed Yoons with:

      ‘Yer Da guards statues’

      🙂 🙂 🙂

    178. CameronB Brodie says:

      The Tories want to impose England’s Parliamentary sovereignty over Scotland’s popular sovereignty, so as to empower right-wing populism and (white) English/British exceptionalism. That’s just not going to happen, if Scots choose to support the rule-of-law rather than nationalist tradition and authoritarian legal practice.

      Authoritarianism and the Rule of Law

    179. Al-Stuart says:


      I actually thought you talked sense. Some of your posts are logical and fairly well reasoned. Then you become an abusive incontinent troll. Pity.

      JayR no, I do not buzz glue. If you bothered to watch the video of Alex Salmond, you would be see how emotional he is about the injustice. From a previous occupation where I was trained in spotting miscreants (and lifting glue buzzers) it is quite difficult to fake that.

      Anyone who knows Alex Salmond will realise he is writing up a political storm.

      I once watched Alex’ chief of staff Geoff Aberdeen describe how the then First Minister, sickened with Nicol Stephen’s LibDem hypocrisy, prepared the rejoinder for next FM question time. It was akin to watching Alex disembowel the squalid LibDem leader in the public chamber.

      Alex Salmond finished his roast of Stephen off with a “Merry Christmas” that was so barbed it would cut through glass.

      My point?

      You watch that video. Alex Salmond is raging so badly he can barely keep it together. Yet, ever the statesman he does.

      That Coven of fake-rape allegers are in for one helluva dose of kharma and I would reckon one or two may end up with jail time. There will also be an inquiry into alleged misconduct by Police Scotland. But here is neither the time nor the place.

      Meanwhile, it starts…

      Now JayR, you go back under the wee bridge where all the cowardly ANONYMOUS keyboard warrior trolls hide,

    180. Al-Stuart says:


      For those wet-wipes and 77th Brigade newbies that keep opening new accounts on Wings Over Scotland, here is a reminder of what happens when you piss off one of the most erudite politicians in the history of Scotland.

      Just a wee sample of what WILL be coming the way of the McWoke fifth columnists and the overpromoted Dreghorn IndyBlocker…

      What are the odds of Alex Salmond just leaving things settle with the publication of his book: “When Your Apprentice Backstabs You & Betrays Scottish Independence.”

      Or would anyone take a bet on…

      Alex Salmond standing in the 2021 Holyrood elections?

      A big question is whether Eck would be ON the SNP ticket or possibly ON another ballot segment. For example: We Promise A Second Independence Referendum For Scotland Party.

      At least that way we have a YES party that actually works towards independence and not the current bunch of Pete Wishart house Jocks. Still cannae get over the ex-Runrig band member wanting to stay in London and devote his time as SPEAKER of the House of Commons. FFS Pete, when did you lose your Indy credentials.

    181. Breeks says:

      ben madigan says:
      21 June, 2020 at 9:08 pm

      I don’t know if anyone has already cited this analysis of the various plans A, B C etc. The writer’s conclusion will surprise!
      ….Which may mean the idea is not spreading and being discussed, so maybe we should all make an effort to bring it to people’s notice.

      Two points Ben.

      First, having the Union come crashing down under Westminster’s steam is just the start, not the end. Scotland would need to elect a new Sovereign Government, or adopt / adapt an devolved one. On current trajectory, I’d want an election. There would also need to be a plebiscite for what Scotland would do next, and either the plebiscite or the election would need to be construed as a ratification process for a ‘rough and ready’ Independence. So my ideas don’t conflict, it’s just the order events are dealt with.

      That leads onto the second point… Brexit is the black powder for this constitutional standoff, and apart from a Backstop/Constitutional Ultimatum, I don’t believe there is time for any democratic process before the end of the year and before the Brexit guillotine drops. Frankly, if talks collapse, that guillotine might even fall sooner.

      The Constitutional Ultimatum is an immediate stick in the spokes of Brexit, and transfers all the initiative and authority away from Westminster and puts Scotland in charge, and it would, I feel sure, see every Nation in Europe backing Scotland’s corner and providing Scotland with essential International Recognition.

      These are tremendous advantages for Scotland, but we are currently on course to squander them for no return. That is not just dumb acquiescence to something unlawful, but demonstrates criminally negligent ‘leadership’ in my opinion.

    182. Paul K says:

      @ Bob Mack

      1. It ain’t gonna happen,because the First Minister wants it done her way. Spacing
      2. Farages posters on vans. Apos
      3. Brexit.Windrush. Spacing
      4. this( England). Oh dear
      5. Your thinking of SNP Indy supporters. Cringe
      6. Clear cut. Hyphen
      7. In al! those scenarios. !!!!!!!!!!!
      8. Only one officer was convicted ,but received a suspended sentence. The spacing howler is bad enough but the sentence makes no sense. Shocking
      9. Bye bye. Hyphen
      10. Living at 100 mph. 100mph
      11. I will make allowances for you in future.Be happy. Spacing
      12. Mutual disdain is ok.In fact I approve. Spacing
      13. Calm down Vinny. Comma
      14. My son managed very well with his Dyslexia. Dyslexia isn’t capped
      15. Neither does he like many I know with the condition ,seek sympathy or allowances for his condition from anybody. Utter state of this. Spacing is fecked and the sentence needs a total rewrite
      16. Ps. Cap ‘s’
      17. Just let it go Cameron. Comma
      18. You would have more success of rationality when talking to a vase. Jesus wept
      19 Joann Cherry. Joanna. She’s the best we’ve got so please make the effort to get her name right
      20. Personally I.Urgh
      21. Hopefully my own will re charge. Recharge. Arguably could take a hyphen if you’re still living in 1872. Maybe you are. Hard to tell.

      21 howlers in your last 21 posts but you’re desperate to jump on other people’s mistakes. Vinny deserves an apology.

    183. Oneliner says:

      @ Armitage Shanks

      Haste ye back.

    184. Robert Louis says:

      I’ve just looked, and it seems, that Pete Wishart’s obsession with a section 30, is because he is afraid that if Scotland does anything else, like say using an election to decide on indy, England would not ‘allow’ it.

      He likens Scotland to Catalonia, yet in every single way, Scotland is not remotely like Catalonia. Scotlamnd as a country is in a voluntary treaty fo union with England, it is NOT part of England. It is shocking that somebody from the SNP seems to have zero knowledge of the constitution of Scotland.

      I’m really sorry, but this is an especially cringing mimndset by Pete Wishart. Of course England will not want Scotland to be independent. The simple reality is that Scotland needs tyo act democratically, but that does NOT mean begging London’s approval.

      Seriously SNP, do you really honestly think these lying barstewards in London are going to turn around and say, ‘oh well now the polls show a majority in favour of independence, we’ll let you have a referendum’. I mean, seriously???? Are you all deluded???

      It has always been clear, Scotland must act democratically, but simply cannot sit back and wait for those who have imprisoned us for over three hundred fecking years, to give is the go ahead.

      Wake up to the real world, Mr Wishart and the SNP. London is NOT going to hand you independence on a silver platter. It just is NOT going to happen. David Cameron only went along with it, because he was under the impression he would win.

      So, here’s the reality, either the SNP sit back and wait for a section 30, which will NOT happen, or they decide to get on with it.

      The clock is ticking. No deal brexit happens in a matter of months. Stop ditehring, FFS.

      As an aside, I note that a debate was offered to Pete Wishart by some in the SNP and indy movement, but he declined. Quelle surprise!

    185. call me dave says:

      Shortbread radio there telling us that a ‘virual’ committee in Holyrood to start work today on the Alex Salmond enquiry.

      So it begins.


      Robbie Neilson back as manager of Hearts. 🙂

    186. F J Lynch says:

      OK Stu. We’re not going to be granted a referendum, let alone independence. What’s your Plan B, bar constantly carping from the sidelines?

    187. Andy Ellis says:

      @ F J Lynch

      It’s not a sin to be ignorant my friend, but it IS a sin to advertise your ignorance quite as publicly as you do. Stu and many others, including many on this very site, have been advocating alternatives to the doomed Oliver Twist style “Please Sir, can I have some more referendum” approach so beloved of mediocre no-marks like Pete Wishart.

      The question is, are you just too lazy to do your own homework or are you just regurgitating the usual SNP ultra-loyalist schtick for comic effect? Neither is a good look in any environment, but don’t expect to come on here trolling without being directed to the nearest underpass OK?

    188. Armitage Shanks says:

      @ terence callachan at 11:47 pm
      Hi Terence,
      Its a difficult one and I agree with what you say,
      (I’m more of a lurker here because of it)
      but if you lived ten or twenty years somewhere, integrated, participated and contributed and brought your children up in that place it might count for something, but how you square that I dont know. Take Care.

      @ Oneliner Im never far away!

    189. Capella says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood – what the TRA lobby do is agree to a debate only on condition that no gender critical women are there. TERFS (as they call us) must be deplatformed or the “debate” cancelled. This has happened in academia in many well documented instances.

      I started to listen to a “debate” on RScotland on Sunday morning. It promised a discussion on the issue with special reference to the JK Rowling intervention. However, the only people debating were a Transwoman, a spokesperson for Engender (trans ally group) and a female journalist who clearly wasn’t up to speed.

      JK Rowling wasn’t there, nor anyone else with a grasp of the detail. The Engender person misrepresented the Equality Act 2010 and lied about the incidence of attacks on women and girls in safe spaces as a result of open access.

      I switched off after the first section when the two biological females were sent off to get a cup of coffee while the male presenter and the transwoman discussed matters further.

    190. Bob Mack says:

      @Paul K,

      I have dyslexia.

    191. Socrates MacSporran says:

      The George Square statues

      There are 13 statues or monuments in George Square:

      The Glasgow War Memorial
      Sir Walter Scott
      Queen Victoria
      Prince Albert
      Robert Burns
      Thomas Campbell
      James Watt
      Thomas Graham
      Sir John Moore
      Lord Clyde
      William Gladstone
      Robert Peel
      James Oswald

      Come Independence, and the Square being renamed Independence Square – what happens?

      Victoria and Albert, Gladstone and Peel – well I don’t think they’d be missed; they could safely be moved, melted down or broken up, since they are hardly Scottish.

      Moore and Clyde, definitely Scottish, but, their military exploits, which earned them their statues, were mainly in the service of “Mother England,” while Moore’s anti-Independence campaign in Ireland and Clyde’s exploits in India also, I feel, qualify them for melting-down, breaking-up.

      Of the rest, James Oswald had links to the cotton trade and to India, which might go against him.

      So, we could probably get rid of six of the current statues without offending anyone outside the Orange Order – but, by whom might they be replaced?

      I would suggest:

      Lord Fraser of Allander
      Jimmy Reid,
      Jock Stein,
      Alex Ferguson,
      Billy Connolly,
      Stanley Baxter
      Mary Barbour

      are all up for consideration, while I would maybe move Donald Dewar to somewhere in the West End and put a statue of Sir Alexander Gibson up there outside the RCH.

      However, any discussion on statues should be parked on the back burner, until we get the most-important matter sorted – winning Independence.

    192. Andrew (Andy) Crow says:

      For as long as the question has to be asked the answer will be ‘no’.

    193. Breeks says:

      robertknight says:
      21 June, 2020 at 11:03 pm
      Robbo @ 10:12

      Been saying for months to any who would listen that once Brexit is “done” Boris is done….

      Given where we stood in 2014, betrayed by the Vow, conned and disadvantaged as usual, the only ‘material’ commitment made was that if circumstances changed, Scotland would be mandated to hold another referendum.

      SNP Membership was going through the roof, and on YES momentum, both Holyrood and Westminster boasted emphatic SNP majorities armed with powerful mandates.

      With those words about a changed circumstance mandate still reverberating in the air, up pops the Brexit Referendum, and Scotland not only has it’s material change of circumstance with Brexit itself, but even better, with an emphatic pro-Europe result, it has a full blown Constitutional Stand-off with the Sovereign voters of Scotland saying No, and the rest of the U.K. voting for Brexit.

      Wait a generation? Dream on. Game on! We didn’t even have time to put away the saltires.

      That “change of circumstance” box was ticked, and reinforced with a pristine Constitutional stand-off we Independence supporters could only have dreamed about.

      In the opposition corner, we had the utterly dismal over-promoted and under-liked Theresa May being as welcome in Europe as a fart in a lift. Then she was replaced by everybody’s joke candidate, the living satire himself, Boris Johnson.

      There’s been your list of clangers Robertknight, and a lot more besides. His water cannon, his bridge to nowhere, his toe curling cringe on a zip line… Can you imagine ANY statesman On the planet higher than the rank of office boy carrying out such a stunt? Judgement??? He has NONE. He thinks he’s Winston Churchill but he’s more accident prone than Frank Spencer, Some Mother’s do have’ em.

      So I’m finally getting to my point… against this backdrop of farcical calamity for UK Government, how is it possible that Nicola Sturgeon’s only accolade is presiding over an unlawful Conspiracy to smear Scotland’s ex First Minister.

      You know that 5000 ton crane which keeled over in Germany? Even that wasn’t a big enough crane to reach the crossbar of the open goal which Scotland has been limply staring at since 2016 as the opposition fell over themselves in every direction like a Monty Python sketch.

      At this rate, England is going to vote for it’s Independence long before we do. The UK is falling around our ears, the Treaty of Union is in shreds, Democratic Scotland wants to stay in Europe and Democratic Europe is keeping our seat warm. And yet our ‘leadership’ dithers.

      Remember years ago when Spitting image had the 100% grey John Major trying to eat peas with a knife while boring his wife Norma to tears, and the only colour on the screen was one lonely green pea on the plate? Utter greyness with a merest suggestion of Green… Wouldn’t you know it? That’s been Nicola Sturgeon’s Independence Campaign Strategy this last 6 years.

      The only success on Theresa May’s Prime Ministerial Report Card is not losing Scotland.
      The only success on Boris Johnson’s is in danger of being the same.

      Tell me again how “brilliant” Scotland’s First Minister is, because, how can I be kind, I’m having a serious degree of difficulty seeing it that way. I actually feel sorry for Nicola Sturgeon, because she’s not old, and has many decades to look back on what she hasn’t achieved with power at her fingertips.

      You can still redeem this Nicola. Present Westminster with a Constitutional Backstop, an ultimatum which defeats either Brexit or the Union, and don’t budge an inch.

    194. Stuart MacKay says:

      Robert Loius @6:56am

      The whole comparison thing with Catalonia is really tiresome and just illustrates peoples’ ignorance. Perhaps a much better analogy would be the “union” between Norway and Denmark – apart from the war in 1814 part. Their divorce turned out to be a good thing, in the long run, for both.

      So rather than let others frame the debate with mental images of people in court being tried for sedition, police baton charging protestors and beating old women with Lisa Nandy cheering while watching on TV how about images of a trillion dollar sovereign wealth fund, and decent bacon.

    195. Gary45% says:

      Ian Brotherhood@12.40
      Nice One.

    196. @Socrates MacSporran,

      I met a traveller from an antique land,
      Who said— “Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
      Stand in the desert.

      Near them, on the sand,
      Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
      And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
      Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
      Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
      The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;

      And on the pedestal, these words appear:
      My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
      Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!

      Nothing beside remains.

      Round the decay of that colossal wreck,
      boundless and bare the lone and level sands stretch far away.”

    197. jfngw says:

      The BBC in Scotland is going to attack on two fronts this week, the polls can’t be ignored and they have given their orders.

      First they will go on relentlessly and interview those that don’t care how many die (Tories effectively) that the two metre rule should be reduced to one metre as in England.

      They have another ‘special’ on the new Glasgow hospital. As the recent report didn’t give the result they wanted it will be reimagined to give the impression it did.

      To maintain the pretence of a successful union they will continue to lie for England and distort the truth to make England look better and Scotland worse.

      They are no different from Lab/Tory/LibDem, financed from another country, they Are the the British Broadcasting Corp in Scotland, the voice of England.

    198. jfngw says:

      As there is a Friends of Wings twitter account, maybe we need a Friends of the Union account where we can retweet SNP politician’s that seem more interested in retaining their seats than independence.

      Maybe the thought of actually running a country puts fear into some of them, all that extra responsibility for just the same remuneration, ‘why bother when I can just make inane points at Westminster for the same income’.

    199. Gary45% says:

      Ian Brotherhood@12.40
      A wee add on.
      The big diddy drum, with ” Defenders of the Statues, Govan Division”.

    200. Dogbiscuit says:

      ‘ Gold standard’ is a self imposed standard a severe Sturgeon imposed restriction on our democratic options. It’s a bogus standard an unnecessary block on any progress. A lot of people still chasing their tails on here.

    201. Dogbiscuit says:

      The alternative to hope is action. Hope is an emotional swindle.

    202. Bob Mack says:


      Excellent summary of where we currently stand.

    203. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Al-Stuart, 4.11.

      Thanks for posting that footage of Alex salmond eviscerating Nicol Stephen, which is now in my faves.

      The timing of “Happy Christmas!” was perfect 🙂


    204. F J Lynch says:

      @Andy Ellis

      Yes, I’m an SNP member; but I don’t agree with everything the party say; and certainly little of which Wishart advocates. And I’ve read WOS for years: the plan B I seek from the Rev, is not an alternative to the Plan A which Wishart punts. But the Rev’s posts recently state that even if 100% of Scotland’s voters demanded a referendum, we won’t get it, let alone independence.

      The Rev’s most recent offering seems to be to back a party he is setting up, the result of which would be to split the vote, turf the SNP out of power, and let the unionists back into power. So, what’s left? Broken heads a la Catalonia? The Rev doesn’t think much of Wishart’s prescription; neither do I. But his nihilism seems to suggest we down swords and disappear back into the long grass. Or is it something else Rev?

    205. Dogbiscuit says:

      Robbo the economy is run by healthy young people .Youre still fear mongering on behalf of corrupt Sturgeon. 1st wave 2nd wave blah blah blah blah blah. Fuck off with that obvious bullshit you idiot.

    206. Dogbiscuit says:

      FJ Lynch repeating hackneyed SNP propaganda.

    207. Mist001 says:

      I think with Corona, we have just passed the so called ‘2nd wave’. Lots and lots of people, including myself, have claimed to have been struck by a mystery flu like illness towards the end of last year, but nobody knew about Corona then. I suspect that was the first wave.

      We’ve just been through the 2nd wave and anything, if anything, happens now, then it’ll be small, localised outbreaks or clusters lasting just a couple of weeks.

      Fuck the Mrs. Murrell/Project Fear rhetoric. Just look around you and what’s happened, then make your own judgement, which after the Cummings affair made clear, everyone is fully entitled to do.

    208. Dan says:

      “Both Votes SNP!” was shouted out around most parts of Scotland by those that would prefer to waste their votes rather than split their votes…

      FFS, Johann Lamont micht o’ been richt after aw… 🙁


      I ken Muppet Lives Matter, but can folk really not be bothered to at least take a cursory look as to why lazily using the term “splitting the vote” is not at all helpful.
      If you truly want to implement change then it might just be an idea to educate the electorate on how to use the democratic tools they have available to affect political change.

    209. shug says:

      watching morning TV shows is very interesting. There is an underlying theme of great we can go on holiday

      Not a thought about viruses on the flight, being close to people or going to an area where there is infection.

      England is bound to get a second wave and I think we might get it as a result of them heading this way

    210. Andy Ellis says:

      @ F J Lynch 10.49am

      Way to prove my point! I’m a former SNP member. I left in disgust at their shabby treatment of Gareth Wardell, but everything I’ve seen since demonstrates it was the right decision. The party may be necessary, but it has lost its way not just on the indyref issue but on GRA and Woko Haram entryism and the failure to deal with the abuse dealt out to the likes of Joanna Cherry and others.

      The Rev is right, and you and the party are wrong. It’s that simple. The Westminster government have nothing to gain from “granting” #indyref2 so they simply won’t do so. Since your position involves meekly accepting the British nationalist veto, the % support level for the SNP or indy supporting parties is irrelevant: future British PM’s simply have to say “now is not the time” ad infinitum. We will to all intents and purposes be prisoners within the UK, much as Catalans are within Spain, because we will have accepted that self-determination is not our right, it is something that English voters hae to “allow”. What kind of democrat, let alone supporter of Scottish nationalism, accepts that?

      You aren’t offering any alternative. Supporters of Plan B, a list only party and plebiscitary elections ARE offering an alternative. All you can come up with is the already debunked “wheesht for indy” and “you’ll split the vote” pish. Get back to us when you grow a pair.

      Sooner a nihilist than tholed house jock like you and those who think like you!

    211. Bob Mack says:


      We are looking around. At Germany and China!.

    212. Vinny says:

      Paul K 4.52am. Brilliant!!!


      You got your arse well and truly skelped you loser.

      I told you that trying to be the smart arse Site Pedant would come back and bite you right in the arse.

      It happens every time.

      As soon as you get somebody who thinks they know better than everybody else, they take a massive crash.

      And the brilliant post by Paul K certainly found you out sunshine. As Paul K pointed out, your grammar is terrible, lol.

      I bet it’s the last time you try to pull anybody for their grammar.

      So BOB MACK, I think you owe the whole site an apology.

      In fact, we don’t need your apology,,,

      We will just all laugh at you.

      Folks, take a look at the Paul K post at 4.52am, it’s a reminder of not to be pedantic with any other poster’s grammar.

      The end Full Stop!!!

    213. Dan says:

      Mist001 says: at 11:14 am

      …Lots and lots of people, including myself, have claimed to have been struck by a mystery flu like illness towards the end of last year…

      I’m qualified in the capacity of holding a First Aider Certificate and Bronze Lifesaving Medallion (both expired) so take my medical input as you see fit, but with the symptoms you describe of “a mystery flu like illness”, it might have been just a regular flu youse aw had…

      Don’t rush out and order an “I Survived Covid” T-shirt just yet coz nobody likes a bullshitter. 😉

    214. Willie says:

      On a change of tack it seems that incompetence or more likely cost saving has cost the lives of three individuals in Reading on Saturday night.

      Not of course as the Authorities would like you to have it as they today trumpet that the security services have already this year successfully thwarted 17 terror attacks.

      And of this attack, well it seems the Lydia refugee was well known to police and the security services. In his five years here the Individual who could not be deported because of his human rights, has already been jailed for eight months for assault and other offences. Spat at the judge when being tried.

      Recently having been held by the security services for being an individual who was at risk of carrying out an terrorist outrage, and an individual who had to be medicated to try to control hostility and anger, he was thereafter released 16 days by the security services to remain on their radar

      So what can we say now. What does Clown Johnson have to say. What does the Home Secretary have to say …… than another job well done. The relatives of the deceased have, like all those who died through the botched COVID crisis have big question to be answered. But they’ll never get answers.

      The bull shit press releases today by government to say that the police and security serviced have been doing a great job thwarting multiple attacks more than tells you that.

      Free to slaughter this known madman was released into the environment!. Just like the virus!!

    215. Bob Mack says:


      Good morning Vinny.

    216. Bob Mack says:

      Worryingly enough I am hearing that the German outbreak is centred on a meat processing factory. This also happened somewhere in the UK recently.

      Could livestock be carrying Covid?

    217. Andy Ellis says:

      Some of you may already have seen this, but a couple of interesting graphs: game on fellow cybernats?

    218. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Q10 is pretty weird – if you are actually trying to obtain views from Unionists, shouldnt you have had an option relating to the concept of a British identity – i.e that Westminster is the expression of democracy for the UK and Unionists are often view themselves as ‘British and Scottish’.”

      That’s a pretty stupid idea, since the entire basis of the question is “what happens when Scotland’s TWO governments are in conflict with each other?” Your suggestion would just be reminding people that Scotland has two governments – which they already know – without offering any answer.

    219. Clapper57 says:

      Pete Wishart seems to think that Indy Plan B will put us in a “H**lish Limbo”……so from limbo (currently) to h**lish limbo (Pete’s prophecy)….we are then… kinda getting lost in limbo ……who knew….

      Time for a limbo dance then – a dance where the aim is to pass forwards under a low bar without falling…..THE AIM…..TO PASS FORWARDS…UNDER A LOW BAR….WITHOUT FALLING….why that could be Plan C….. 😉 …….Fail to plan ..Plan to fail…..Plan A being an example….No ?

      Getting pretty sick of this actually so much so that if something constructive , re Indy, does not happen soon then I will be dragged down into the depths of apathy…..

      Can someone tell Pete and his colleagues that some of us have a life we want to live….and that we do not want to feel compelled, via anger and frustration, to spend an extreme amount of our PRECIOUS time posting the same f**king posts on a pro Indy blog day after day, month after month….and f**king year after year…..where frankly that itself feels like living in a H**lish f**king LIMBO….no disrespect meant to owner of this site..obvs

    220. robbo says:

      Meat plants

      I mentioned this a few days ago Bob. It’s kinda worrying and if this gets into food chain,it’s a different ball game right enough.

      Not enough for Mist001 & The Dug as the class clowns are immortal don’t yi ken. As well as being top world infectious disease virologists ,they’re also blessed with amazing foresight !

    221. MaggieC says:

      CallmeDave @ 8.15 am

      Re committee meeting regarding Scot Gov handling of complaints about Alex , it is live on Scot Parliament Tv at 2.00 pm at following link but this will be the only meeting before the Scot Parl finishes for recess this Friday and Scot Parl doesn’t open again till 10th August .

      Also interesting on Bbc Parliament channel just now live is the “ Future of journalism “ committee ,
      I don’t know if this is a new committee or not as I don’t remember hearing about this committee before .

    222. robbo says:

      Dan says:
      22 June, 2020 at 11:39 am
      Mist001 says: at 11:14 am

      “…Lots and lots of people, including myself, have claimed to have been struck by a mystery flu like illness towards the end of last year…”


      Mystery stupid like illness more like.

    223. Gary45% says:

      ” passed the so called 2nd wave”
      What planet are you on? you certainly don’t live in the UK if that’s your belief.
      We are not even half way through the first, Johnson &Co have made a total mess of this, believe who you want regarding the evidence.

    224. Republicofscotland says:

      I’ve just read Pete Wisharts scaremongering blog article in the National newspaper. No offence to the good people of Catalonia, but Scotland has been a country in its own right since around 845AD, infact if memory serves its the elder of the two countries in this horrendous union. How Wishart can compare Scotland’s position to that of Catalonia is beyond me.

      Wishart conveniently omits that Westminster has no intentions of issuing a S30 order. Wishart adds as his advice, to come up with some sort of concrete proposal for a Plan B, well Pete, isn’t that why we the people elected you and your clique?

      We do have a concrete Plan B, use next years Scottish elections as a independence referendum, if independence minded parties win a majority, then we can start negotiations to leave this terrible union and never look back.

      Wishart goes on that the referendum (which would run concurrent with the elections) would immediately be ruled illegal, who by Westminster? Which refuses to issue a S30 order, isn’t that undemocratic, isn’t that what you’d call illegal.

      Wishart wants the SNP to, on returning to power in 2021, to draw up some sort of Plan B, of course once Sturgeon gets her feet under the desk at Bute House again until 2025, the notion of independence will be kicked into the long grass until late 2024, when it will be wheeled out again in time for re-election.

      Wishart ends with the time for Plan B has not come yet, to me that says, Wishart isn’t interested in Scottish independence, he and his cronies in the party are quite happy to string their gradualism out for decades, why push for independence when your party can govern for years to come, on a few competent policies, and when things go bad, and they most certainly will as Westminster exposes Scotland to all kinds of poor trade deals, and sell offs such as the NHS.

      They can always point the finger at Westminster and blame them for this and that, and the unaware loyal masses will love Sturgeon for it.

    225. Mialuci says:

      Politics bore me rigid, When an election comes around I cast my vote for independence, to me its that simple.
      The Individuals steering the boat do not matter as long as the course remains the same and we reach our destination

    226. Breastplate says:

      You are quite correct. Any announcement from the SNP to make a stand for independence would rally the whole Yes movement behind them no matter who was in charge.
      Unfortunately the people that are in charge have made no rally cry nor are they likely to.
      It is the very people in charge who have facilitated the difference of opinion in the effectiveness of the party of independence or as other people call it, the split.

      Nicola Sturgeon and co have been at the helm of a rudderless ship that they’ve damaged themselves for longer than is comfortable for some of us who want self determination for our country.

      It’s similar to being up shit creek without a paddle but thinking about it, I’m not even sure we have a boat anymore.

    227. Breastplate says:

      I also meant to add that voting another Independence Party on the list might act as a catalyst for the SNP to do something constructive about independence.
      I think it’s a political boot up their arses they really need and deserve.
      All in my humble opinion of course.

    228. mark whittet says:

      More ‘massive surges’ for SNP + mandate after mandate – but still NO ACTION on achieving Scottish Independence.

      Here’s how Plan-B will deliver Scottish Independence

      Stop moaning (about Brexit, Tories, Labour, flu, weather, BBC…), forward this + join

    229. CameronB Brodie says:

      If the SNP are going to come up with an effective plan of action to defend Scotland from authoritarian English nationalism, they’ll need to edumicate themselves out of their lack of rationality and their profound legal parochialism, which is the source of their legal subservience.

      Practical Knowledge: Selected Essays
      Intention, Plans, and Ethical Rationalism

    230. Capella says:

      @ Bob Mack – there was an item on the radio at lunchtime saying meat processing plants rely on refrigeration and the virus likes a cold environment.
      I guess the men don’t bother wearing sissy masks either but that’s just my bias.

    231. robbo says:

      Great story.Brings a tear to a glass eye as they say.

    232. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Why are you not sharing the results of the other question asked in the poll? Instead of votes/seats on whether opinion polling would see a shift?”

      Because they’re incomprehensible due to a hurriedly-drafted question. We’re asking again in the next few days.

    233. Polly says:

      Good lord some of those answers are worse than I imagined they could be. I’m glad I’m a good few days late to these posts for they make me seeth enough now. I know some unionists have been forced to shift more rightward and loyalist since brexit, but now with corona virus pathetic response in England seems like they’re all being forced into the orange order or full on fascist camp just to keep clear water between them and us.

      The stuff in George Square and papers trying to show ‘two opposing groups’ false equivalence is all of a piece. Independence will be good for unionist too since it might mean they can again condemn these type of people which I’m sure most would be glad to do but for fear of aiding the independence cause. Whether independence supporters can so easily forget what unionist are prepared to be silent on in their desperation to hang on to the union at all costs is another matter. Speaking for myself, I can no longer regard a unionist I know in the same light after seeing what they persistently shut their eyes to and what they refuse to make any comment on.

    234. Pretty much getting to the stage now where I believe, at least with the current decorticated social worker shower in control of the SNP, that the chimera of another indyref is like “The South’s gonna rise again” in the American South, where they believe that that part of the country will resurrect itself from the defeat inflicted on them during the Civil War and flourish once again. Of course, it’s nothing more than a sustaining myth of that part of the populace rising proud and phoenix-like from the historical indignity and poverty of their lives. But, more and more, to me, the parallels are very clear, and I am very, very tired of the cynicism of the (ostensible) SNP in ceaselessly promoting it for a pay packet.

      Hell, I’m just tired, full stop. I don’t read Scottish political coverage anymore. Daily ‘indignant’ whining about marginalisation in Westminster on The National just makes me want to vomit. The self-abasement levels people will stoop to for a tidy pay packet, eh? Nothing like the rest of the Scottish population being laughed at, and spat on, by proxy, through the treatment of our elected representatives. But some of us are by no means masochists, and are angry at, and indeed despise, our spineless SNP serfs pols for giving the Tories to spit on and the lube to shaft them with.

      Fuck it.

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