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The Deadest Duck

Posted on June 19, 2020 by

We had a little mini-poll out with Panelbase this week, readers. Given that the SNP are currently still insisting that they need ANOTHER mandate at the ballot box to secure a second independence referendum (by our count that would be the tenth), we thought we’d see how many people believed this cunning plan would work.

The results, we suspect, will not amaze you.

Scottish voters, it turns out, aren’t completely stupid.

Barely over a quarter of voters thought that the result of next year’s Holyrood election would have any impact on the UK government’s refusal to grant a new Section 30 order. And it wasn’t even washing with the SNP’s own voters, who by almost two to one thought we’d simply get told to scuttle off again even if more than 50% of Scots voted for pro-indy parties.

Plan A is dead, folks. It’s turned up its toes. It is an ex-plan. It has ceased to be. It’s pining for the fjords. And we’re gonna need a bigger boat.

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    1. 19 06 20 16:56

      The Deadest Duck | speymouth

    121 to “The Deadest Duck”

    1. Andy Ellis says:

      Presumably the only person this will come as a surprise to is Pete Wishart?

    2. Breastplate says:

      But f we ask really nicely they will have to allow….ah fcuk, never mind.

    3. Muscleguy says:

      EVen if the S30 court case is successful (and assuming it doesn’t get appealed to hell and back) I’m not sure cautious Sturgeon and her unionist advisers will call a referendum. After all absent a campaign the polls aren’t at the magical 60% yet. A nice Catch 22 for Sturgeon there.

      I suspect that death by a thousand cuts such as the realities of Brexit, the US trade deal meaning our protected trade names will be given up to the Yanks etc etc will in a boil the frog slowly manner not move the polls as the Brexit vote only did momentarily.

      If a miracle happens I’m quite sure we can get the polls to the high 50’s at least with at minimum a year long campaign. Unless we hit inevitable in folk’s minds and then it will be game on as nobody other than the No Surrender bunch wants not to be able to say they voted for the Independence. That might move the polls up there. Be interesting, if we ever get the chance.

      Also who’se betting we will need a different campaign vehicle not bothered by the woke brigade? I’m just waiting until RIC demands a pledge of woke allegiance. Then I would be offski looking for another berth. Maybe the ISP could bunch up with someone else and do a Moderate IC. Considering the number of women in the local RIC branch that split may well happen.

    4. Mist001 says:

      “Scottish voters, it turns out, aren’t completely stupid.”

      It turns out that Mrs. Murrell disagrees with you. She thinks they’re completely thick, having said this due to a slight alteration in basic wording today:

      “admitted that following and understanding the rules will be even harder for Scots now they have changed.”!!

      So, she thinks the rules were hard for Scottish people to understand in the first place and now they’re even harder for Scots to understand!!

      That woman is utterly ridiculous, enjoying her power trip. The sooner Scotland gets an alternative to SNP, the better. She’s only there because there’s no choice and she knows it.

    5. Joemcg says:

      Bring this up on social media and you get torn apart for showing dissent to the party and Nicola. Are yes supporters brainwashed blindly supporting a party that seem to have no intention of pursuing the primary goal?

    6. robertknight says:

      Muscleguy

      What court case?

      Even if, and it’s a big IF, the UKSC compelled the UK Govt. to introduce a Bill in the HoC to facilitate an Order in Council, under Section 30 of the Scotland Act, to permit Holyrood to hold a referendum – as per IndyRef1 – Boris can allow a free vote among his backbenchers and they’ll kill off any such Bill…

      The UKSC can compel a Government, but it CANNOT compel Parliament.

      The only recourse left to an SNP Government at Holyrood would be to hold a “consultative referendum”, and only if the courts don’t determine that it strays beyond Holyrood’s competence and into the realms of the (UK) Constitution.

    7. Andy Ellis says:

      @ Muscleguy 4.31pm

      The Sturgeonites must be praying the case fails, because if it won they have nowhere to hide. If it fails we might as well resign ourselves to no indyref2 for a “real” generation, because absent some political earthquake Scots voters appear set to give the SNP a majority in 2021 on their own.

      From what I’ve seen so far I have my doubts the ISP are capable of providing the kind of leadership required: it’s going to take the defection of big hitters like Joanna Cherry to make any impact on the SNP, and I’m not sure I see that happening.

      Few peoples in history appear as capable as the Scots of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

    8. Dan says:

      Today, still wanted by the government which survives as a hostage to fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire… the A-Team(2.0)

      Doo doo doo doo, doo doo doo…

    9. David says:

      The virus and its aftermath and financial implications are all that matters right now nothing else and why has the rev not asked Alec Salmond why he agreed to something like a section 30 order being created in the first place .
      There again its easy to take potshots where is this Wings party you keep threatening to form will it be based in Scotland .
      And this website should be based in Scotland controlled from Scotland edited in Scotland does any of that happen and the only subject for comment should be the virus .Thousands of jobs are under threat any views on how to handle that .

    10. robertknight says:

      How’s the weather under your bridge, David?

    11. Merkin Scot says:

      There is more chance of Mr Blackford protecting us from chlorinated chicken than the current Wokeist Tendency getting us Independence.

    12. johnj says:

      It’s going to come to UDI eventually, it’s just a matter of when. FWIW I think Nicola Sturgeon knows that, but she will want to wait until the full effects of Brexit are apparent, and enough of the waverers come round to the same opinion. I’m thinking the winter/spring 2021/2.

    13. Papko says:

      There are plenty of things need remedied in Scotland (not least after the post-covid decimation of the econony).
      So many on here are stuck on the 2014 model for a campaign. As if indyref2 is going to be the sAmerican slow meandereply then the sudden surge for Yes.

      No two games are ever the same no matter how often the same opponents play each other.

      And this galvanising of the popular vote with the arguments of 14 is gone forever.

    14. Bonnar says:

      Sick of the drip feed and selective release of polling data. Just get it out and let us see the other questions.

    15. David says:

      robertknight at 506pm overcast threatening to thunder no bridge though what about you haha

    16. MightyS says:

      The court case (Forward as One for anyone wishing to find it on FB)will only tell us whether we MUST have WM’s permission before we hold another indyref. Martin Keating and his counsel don’t think we do. It won’t force NS to actually hold one, should it be successful.

      I think indyrefs are soooo 2014 anyway. Unless NS suddenly commissions the Ethereum Block Chain voting system (she won’t) any pencil and paper indyref will be too easy to rig and the SNP can ill afford a trip to Nandos never mind another indyref.

      We really need a complete change at the top for the SNP, or we need to wait another 5-10 yrs for another iParty to establish.

      Quite depressing actually.

    17. Bryan Weir says:

      It doesn’t really matter what the people who were polled think. They have no say in this.

    18. robertknight says:

      IndyRef2, via a S30, will never happen…

      Any legislation at Westminster won’t get past its First Reading.

      A “Consultative Referendum” at Holyrood is highly unlikely – even a blind man, let alone the UKSC, can see it falls under matters Constitutional.

      Therefore all that will be left for the SNP, assuming it has the stomach for a fight, is for all SNP MPs and MSPs to resign their seat and stand for re-election on a single issue ticket of Indy.

      Such a move would not require any consent from WM nor would it concern the rules regarding the dissolution of a sitting administration at Holyrood.

      A resounding return of all candidates by the electorate would give the SNP the legitimacy to enter into negotiations with WM to repeal the Act of Union.

    19. Vinny says:

      Sturgeon’s Plan C is slow slow slow slow slow.

      I read up a bit on this absolutely brilliant english army general called Montgomery.

      It turns out, if you do a little digging, that he was a total tosser

      He was over cautious and frightened of his own shadow.

      It was the American generals who over ruled him and pushed on from the beaches of Normandy.

      If it had been up to Montgomery the english army would still be stuck on the beaches of Normandy.

      Why mention Montgomery???

      Well it’s easy, his fear to move off the beaches reminds me so much of Sturgeon’s fear to move for Independence.

      She has no fire in her belly and it will take somene else who has that fire, to get us moving off of the beaches.

    20. Neil Mackenzie says:

      Any answer to a question asking what people think of a supposedly democratic government simply overruling democracy whenever the Prime Minister thinks his fans would like him to say “Nah”?

    21. Dan says:

      Andy Ellis says: at 4:48 pm

      From what I’ve seen so far I have my doubts the ISP are capable of providing the kind of leadership required: it’s going to take the defection of big hitters like Joanna Cherry to make any impact on the SNP, and I’m not sure I see that happening.

      Few peoples in history appear as capable as the Scots of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

      First point, one wonders, have the ISP reached out to all the different YES groups around Scotland to begin the process of identifying potential candidates to stand in specific Regional List areas, or is up to YES groups and individuals to contact the ISP?
      Local knowledge will play a very significant and important part in identifying and selecting good worthy candidates.

      Second point, indeed from my recent conversations with switched on Indy players, I have been somewhat taken aback at the rather blinkered approach they have on moving us forward.
      They highlight issues with nearly every pro Indy idea and person, I then ask are their concerns with these ideas and folk so significant they would not work with any of them on principle and stay under the yoke of London Rule…

      Scotland, the only country that thought tactics was a type of mint…

    22. Alec Lomax says:

      Mist: Time to start another party. What’s the delay? Where’s the beef?

    23. twathater says:

      @ Brian Weir 5.24pm

      Bryan Weir says:

      19 June, 2020 at 5:24 pm

      It doesn’t really matter what the people who were polled think. They have no say in this.

      Unfortunately it appears that that also applies to the whole of the electorate in Scotland , subjugated , colonised and ignored not only by the WM circus but by our own SG

    24. Proud Cybernat says:

      Let WM kill of all routes to an agreed (S30) IndyRef2. Let them do it. Then, blocked from that route, to exercise our democratic will we:

      1) Hold a consultative IndyRef without S30 and dare WM to challenge. If they don’t challenge then IR2 gets HMQ’s Royal Assent and becomes law i.e. a legal IndyRef (which the BritNats can then boycott to their little heart’s content). If WM challenges and lose then same as above. If WM challenges WINS then:

      2) We hold a plebiscite vote on straight independence during SE2021 whereby a majority of seats AND popular vote won by the SNP instructs them to negotiate Scotland’s withdrawal from the Union. (If SE2021 is too soon then another Scottish Election can be engineered at a more suitable time).

      Point is – we, as sovereign Scots, call all the shots. When WM blocks one route, we simply adopt the next. If WM were wise they would agree to S30 referendum route as I think this will be easier for them to control the narrative and potentially win.

      One way or another, a vote on our constitutional future within the UK / EU WILL happen–and I have a sneaking suspicion that it’ll happen out of the blue and faster than anyone presently imagines.

    25. Beaker says:

      @Vinny says:
      19 June, 2020 at 5:33 pm
      Sturgeon’s Plan C is slow slow slow slow slow.
      “I read up a bit on this absolutely brilliant english army general called Montgomery. It turns out, if you do a little digging, that he was a total tosser.”

      Eisenhower hated him, but was too professional a soldier to ever voice these concerns or sideline Montgomery. He only mentioned these points in post-war interviews.

      Market Garden (of A Bridge too Far fame) was a total fuck up. The intelligence was there and he ignored it. The Dutch Prince Bernhard is quoted as saying “My country can never again afford the luxury of another Montgomery success”.

      Most war historians consider Montgomery as a tactically weak. The German high command certainly did.

    26. Republicofscotland says:

      Plan A’s dead, long live Plan B, of which has been mentioned, a good poll question would be.

      A. Should next years Scottish elections, if won by a majority of independence parties, represent a independence referendum.

      Or similar wording could be used bearing in mind the above results of your mini poll.

    27. Doug says:

      Dear SNP/SG,

      Action, please, not words. Independence first and foremost.

      Yours etc etc

      PS. Find some guts.

    28. robertknight says:

      PC @ 5:47

      Agree with ‘2’.

      Regarding ‘1’, I think it’ll be Holyrood’s combined Yoonery who would drag any “Consultative Referendum” all the way through to the UKSC. WM wouldn’t be daft enough to turn it into a WM vs HR fight and why would they need to when their proxies in HR can do all the legal nasties on WM’s behalf!

    29. To those who blindly follow the SNP like I did expecting them to deliver independence and failing to do so I ask you when does loyalty end and stupidity begin???

    30. twathater says:

      @ Dan 5.39pm Re contacting all the YES groups for poss candidates and interaction you would think that would be a no brainer

      TBH I think ANY new party trying to gain acceptance and co-operation from SNP members is bound to fail , due to the constrictions and conditions that that membership would insist upon for co-operation and votes
      I went on to Barrheadboy website to check out his blog re the ISP and the comments from some alleged SNP members were SO defeatist , basically it appeared that some ONLY wanted independence if it were won by the SNP and only on their terms

    31. CmonIndy says:

      Strange timing. Just as the FM has been eviscerating the Scot Unionists, winning hearts and minds, showing the gaping contrast in capability between two neighbouring nations, saving lives (since deconnecting from Westminster) then we get another ‘look at me’ post from he who burns his supporters’ donations.
      I have been gobsmacked by the support for FM from diehard Tory supporters locally.

    32. robertknight says:

      Cmonindy @ 6:07

      “I have been gobsmacked by the support for FM from diehard Tory supporters locally.”

      You don’t do irony, do you…

    33. B Griffiths says:

      When are you coming back to Twitter Stu? You’re missed!

    34. Proud Cybernat says:

      @robertknight 19 June, 2020 at 5:57 pm

      “Regarding ‘1’, I think it’ll be Holyrood’s combined Yoonery who would drag any “Consultative Referendum” all the way through to the UKSC.”

      They might but I think it’s in their interest to actually opt for the IndyRef route rather than SE2021 win for indy parties. They will know (and we should make a point of broadcasting it loud and clear) that if the Referendum route is blocked then we will opt for a straight win in SE2021 for Indy parties (seats & pop. vote) as the trigger to negotiate the termination of the Treaty of Union. If the BritNats were smart they would not block the Referendum route as it’s by far the beast chance they will have of stopping Scotland leaving the Union. They can’t stop SE2021 (or UK GE if it comes to it) and in those votes the BritNat parties can hardly boycott them. The BritNat parties will be in the difficult and unenviable position of telling us how great the Union is (I know, I know) and, at the same time, trying to defend how undemocratic the Union has been in thwarting Scotland’s political aspirations re the EU/Brexit etc, etc.

    35. Shug says:

      Well the farmers and fisherman are toast, the whisky industry is facing tarrifs all round.
      The unionists are sure killing their supporters.
      All these wallydugs that shout about a ref now need to hold fast.
      The wave in our direction will be unstopable

    36. jfngw says:

      We are never going to able to have a fair referendum whilst still in the UK, they will interfere as they did last time, despite the ‘it is a decision for Scotland’ statements made by the then UK PM.

      We should be voting for independence at the next election with a confirmatory referendum run purely from Holyrood and only involving Scottish based politicians. Immediate Scottish media regulations should be put in place and broadcasting from a foreign country during any referendum should be banned. It sounds a bit draconian but we know what we are dealing when it comes to WM.

    37. Julia Gibb says:

      Why have the famed freedom fighters not started that new party yet?
      I keep hearing how bad the SNP is. How little is being done to drive Independence. I’m still reading post after post on what is wrong with the SNP.

      It is becoming an endless empty winge session. I get abuse like other members for sticking to the SNP as my only choice at present because I dread the alternative that would emerge to run Scotland on a daily basis at Holyrood. Deny them a Westminster vote and the Unionist chorus will be Independence is dead.

      Winge after winge and not ONE alternative other than DON’T vote SNP. Recovering control of the Party is a far more practical and speedier solution in comparison to the empty dreams of the most vocal on this site.

      What are you going to do to bring about Independence. Every accusation made about the SNP could be equally applied to they empty demands posted daily on here.

      I’m still waiting for the alternative option. I know I will get another attack for asking. Stop telling me what is wrong with everybody else. Stop listing the mistakes you perceive. I know who you don’t want. I know who you won’t vote for. Is that PLAN A.

      In 5 years I will still be reading about how bad the SNP is. I bet I still won’t have an alternative. (Not on the list, in my constituency).

    38. Dan says:

      @twathater

      I wouldn’t be so certain some SNP members are so wedded to the SNP that they wouldn’t consider making alternative use of their second votes.
      The concept of a Pro-Indy list party doesn’t require all SNP second votes.
      Numpties gonna numpty, nowt you can do about that, they are what I call The Fuckin’ Magnolias where everything looks a shade of beige to them as they’ve got their heads stuck in the sand or up their asses!

      A few days ago I posted the stats for two regions which combined only managed to return 1 supposedly pro indy msp.

      YES Groups and individuals are a long way from being made up of just SNP worshipers, and they have been working for years in their specific areas and imo have been building more political education amongst the electorate than the SNP has with their “Both Votes SNP” pens, which made heehaw use of second votes in most regional areas.
      That point, especially with current SNP Constituency polling numbers, begs the question, why would anyone in most of the regions stand as an SNP candidate on the Regional list if they actually wanted to get into Holyrood…

    39. Craig says:

      I will be honest here.

      I really couldn’t give a rats arse anymore, I am sick to the back teeth of everything and I am done.

      More power to you that still campaign, I think it’s just a futile waste of time.

      Nothing will change, we will still be under Westminster rule for the next 100 years, the media and Westminster will see to that.

      Nicola, at first was so fuckin promising, now, I couldn’t give two shits.

      Fool me once, shame on you, fool me again, shame on me.

      Well, I ain’t being fooled anymore.

    40. Julia Gibb says:

      Dan 6:39

      Amateurs talk objectives.
      Professionals talk logistics.

      Apart from “somebody needs to do something” I don’t here anything else. I do not disagree with all the criticism of the SNP. However empty noise, no matter how loud, is less effective than the efforts of those trying to win the Party back.

    41. Arthur Martin says:

      But mibbess if we say pretty please with a big sugared plum on top wrapped up with a big pink ribbon they might just say yes? It’s time that a few feet were getting held to the fire.

    42. Doug says:

      @CmonIndy 6:07pm

      “I have been gobsmacked by the support for FM from diehard Tory supporters locally.”

      That’s good. How many will now vote Yes?

    43. Andy Ellis says:

      @ Julia Gibb 6.30pm

      What a disingenuous response! People have suggested alternatives, so either you’re not listening or you just don’t care? Many of us (including former SNP members like me) will probably hold our noses and vote for the SNP in our constituencies in the 2021 Holyrood elections, not because we think they’re doing a great job, or because we agree with their recent policy positions, but SOLELY to ensure we maintain a pro-indy majority. There is no realistic alternative with only a year to go.

      There IS a realistic alternative for our constituency votes. Folk can vote Green, RISE/SSP, ISP and possibly for other new “list only parties”. Time will tell. Like many others, I’ll NEVER give my 2nd vote to the Greens or SNP due to their stance on GRA and what we see as a weak response to progressing #indyref2.

      The alternative to meekly accepting a British nationalist veto has been clearly stated many times, by many people, including Stu Campbell on here: plebiscitary elections. The fact that the SNP refuses to have that as a Plan B to the inevitable “now is not the time” response from Westminster is a huge indictment of the SNP. the question is why haven’t all those party loyalists telling us to “wheesht for indy” done anything about it?

      Last I saw, they were booing the very suggestion of Plan B at their party conference. Save us your histrionics and get back to us when you muck out the Augean stable at SNP HQ!

    44. Bob Mack says:

      A cunning plan conceived by General Melchett and carried out by Baldrick would have an infinitely greater chance of success than those devised at SNP HQ.

    45. Dan says:

      @Julia Gibb at 6:48 pm

      Yawn, I shouldn’t bite but:
      Do you really think just because someone is paid they have more of a clue than someone who isn’t.
      Do you really think my activity on here is all I do and have done.

      Here’s some Friday night information to digest. Keep on scrollin’ don’t stop now.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Scottish_Parliament_election

      https://www.parliament.scot/mspfinder/index.html?region

    46. mountain shadow says:

      Where’s Perthshire Pete for his opinion?

    47. defo says:

      Not so bad really, at least we appear to know what’s what.
      Warming the electorate to the need for a ‘plan b’, would then seem to be the logical next step.

    48. Famous15 says:

      Out in the wide world for daily recreation I eavesdrop a conversation which due to social distancing I cannot join ,much as I was tempted.

      Woman of about age 45 “Nicola Sturgeon is doing a great job in this crisis, We should all be thankful she is First Minister.”

      Woman about age of 70 “Aye but she still wants Independence. Cannae afford it. The coal mines are closed and the oil has run out. Aw.”

      Woman of about age 45 “ Aye but ah don’t know but she is good but”

      I did not scream but was tempted but also it told me the Independence movement should get off its arse and do some obvious convincing to the point that what is obvious to me that Independence is the only destiny for Scotland and create the majority which cannot be ignored.

    49. Ron Maclean says:

      86 years (the wilderness years) of SNP lockdown and no plan to reach independence.

      5 years of shielded inaction and Nicola Sturgeon shows no movement toward independence.

      Have any of her flower girls read the SNP’s constitution?

    50. Capella says:

      Yes. But the consequences of that will be that the Scottish Government will gain immense leverage, not least in the international community, specifically in the EU.

      Alex Salmond once said “There is more than one way to skin a cat”. What do you suppose he meant?

    51. Beaker says:

      Some good news from Twitter – Katie Hopkins has been permanently banned.

    52. terence callachan says:

      as we see U.K. govt regularly refuse to agree to Scotland having another independence referendum
      It is generally agreed that Scotland has to get the agreement of other countries if it is to declare independence without a U.K. govt S30 agreement.
      Other countries will only agree with Scotland declaring independence without. S30 if they can show that a majority of people in Scotland want it and if Scotland has exhausted all possible ways of getting England’s cooperation.

      Other countries already have brexit to deal with
      They don’t really want to deal with Scotland and England and possibly wales all separating with discord and disagreement within each country

    53. Ian R Murray says:

      Last week somebody on here posted a link to a Craig Murray cam post which from around the 11.30 point dealt specifically with how we get independence.
      As best I remember we do not need Westminsters permission!
      We need to be recognised as a country by the UN and basically that is it, because no country can be stopped from doing what it votes for by another.
      UN law overrides any agreement between countries such the Act of the Union
      Perhaps a re post of that link would be in order
      He made perfect sense It made me wonder why we have not gone down that road instead of playing Yahtse with referendum mandates

    54. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Capella’s comment copied from the last thread, and my reply:

      Capella says:
      19 June, 2020 at 6:55 pm
      @ twathater – to explain – I admire Nicola Sturgeon for a great many things. She is, by far, the most competent politician in the UK. She is on top her brief, every day.

      I despise her stand on the GRA. But, I can understand how so many younger women, who have never had the struggle us old guard had, see no problem with men declaring themselves women. They want to be kind and inclusive. They have been hypnotised by woke ideology. I regard it as gross ignorance. I wish they would educate themselves on the history of feminism. I wish they would stop listening to the silver tongued arguments of the trans lobby and start to think rationally and scientifically.

      But that doesn’t make her a monster.

      I know there are people here who believe she is responsible for the arrest and trial of Alex Salmond. I DON’T KNOW and nobody commenting on here knows either. Stu and Craig Murray say they have conclusive evidence. But I haven’t seen it.

      Innocent till proven guilty is a maxim I respect. I believed Alex Salmond to be innocent (although, again, I couldn’t KNOW that).

      I have no doubt that there are highly placed actors in the Scottish Government determined to bring down Alex Salmond and destroy the independence movement. But who? I can’t believe that it is Nicola Sturgeon. I may be wrong.

      Finally, people frame their perceptions according to their beliefs. People who are biased against independence describe Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond in the most insulting and degrading ways possible. Some people seem to think that, if only Alex Salmond were back in charge, the independence movement would forge ahead. They forget recent history.

      I think I’ve said enough for now.

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      19 June, 2020 at 7:36 pm
      @Capella –

      Isn’t it possible to admire and respect someone whilst acknowledging that they’re in the wrong job?

      I honestly cannot remember the last time NS said anything about independence which wasn’t couched in caveats. You’re honest enough to admit that you just don’t know the full background to her recent behaviour, and neither do we. Many of us now fear that she could justify spinning Covid/Brexit-shaped plates for the next year and possibly much longer.

      ‘Now is not the time’ was Theresa May’s phrase but it’s becoming Nicola’s and that is not acceptable.

      SNP/Yes/Indy supporters almost pulled it off in 2014 by being disciplined and united. That was possible because we had a solid target, a date to aim for, and plenty of time to develop our strategies and arguments. No-one involved in that great effort deserves the shabby, disrespectful treatment we’ve been getting from those we elected to represent our aims (e.g. Pete Wishart’s recent appalling performances on Twitter).

      I don’t know NS (or any SNP high heid yins for that matter) and dislike the personal attacks on her as much as anyone else – all they do is detract from the validity of the cold, hard facts piling up against her. She may be a great woman, character, debater, intellect, ambassador, and heaven only knows whatever else, but she’s not doing the job she was elected to do and has exhausted all possible excuses.

      She has to go eventually, so why not now?

      I’m not asking that as a wind-up and if you feel you’ve said enough, fair do’s. But I really would like someone, anyone, to come here and give us one good reason why she shouldn’t step down, pursue her career elsewhere, and let us get on with the job she will not (or can not?) do.

    55. Capella says:

      @ Ian R Murray – because it has to be demonstrably the will of the Scottish people. Not quite there yet.

    56. Dogbiscuit says:

      Julia Gibb ‘Independence IS dead’ .

    57. Capella says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood – I don’t think NS is in the wrong job. She is the best person for the job IMO. You seem to forget the fact that she intended to have a referendum in September this year. We are in the middle of a pandemic. I know you don’t believe the corona virus is as deadly as people say it is. Nevertheless, campaigning during a pandemic would be idiotic.

      Had she resigned last year, Derek Mackay would certainly have been elected leader. That would have played straight into unionist hands. Unionists expected to get rid of her in April after the Alex Salmond trial. Alex was found not guilty. The inquiry is still to come.

      The pandemic has hampered their plans but they will return to it eventually. These people mean to get their way and they play a long game. I’m patient enough to wait till next spring. Then – OK if the SNP don’t move and/or Nicola Sturgeon proves to have been involved on the Alex Salmond stitch up – then, fair enough, it’ll be time to go.

      But the SNP vote will sink like a stone in those circumstances.

    58. Ian R Murray says:

      Agreed Capella
      He pointed to the 2021 elections as an opportunity to frame those elections as a single issue manifesto

    59. ahundredthidiot says:

      Beaker 7:57

      How is banning people from speaking a good thing?

      Disagree, fine, debate/dispute, fine, but any sort of banning is exactly what is going wrong with this World. God forbid offending anyone, ever!

      And while on the theme of banning things we don’t agree with – soon we will be banning people from receiving medical facilities for not wearing a face-mask……..oh, wait, what’s that?? – we are already!

    60. Dogbiscuit says:

      Capella have you seen the nightmare scenario being forced on Scottish schoolchildren by that corrupt crew at Holyrood? Sturgeon drunk on what little powered is devolved to her. Children in UK are about to be dehumanised by insane social distancing. Wearing masks to depersonalise them. I don’t think you realise quite what’s going on.

    61. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      As far as I understand the situation…

      International recognition of a nation’s declaration of independence is paramount. The internal law of a “parent” state has no relevance – it is international recognition of the desire for self-determination of a “nation” that counts.

      But…

      It must be demonstrated that a majority of that nation’s population/voters are in favour of independence.

      That can be demonstrated by,

      a) A majority in a referendum (actually rare, historically)
      or
      b) A party or parties having in their manifesto that if they achieve a majority of seats/votes, then that is taken as a mandate to start independence negotiations with the “parent” state.

      I think that we Scots must now be looking at option (b). Whether our elected representatives see it the same way, remains to be seen…

    62. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Capella –

      I appreciate the reply but it seems we won’t agree.

      Very few in the indy movement (so far as I’m aware anyway) ever believed a referendum was going to happen this year, bug or no bug. You seem to believe that NS genuinely expected one to take place. That’s fair enough, but I don’t believe for a nanosecond that the SNP has *ever* been on indyref2 footing.

      So, ultimately, it becomes a question of ‘faith’ – unfortunately, when it comes to NS being the right person to lead the Scottish independence movement, mine has long since vanished.

    63. Beaker says:

      @Ian Brotherhood says:
      19 June, 2020 at 7:36 pm
      “SNP/Yes/Indy supporters almost pulled it off in 2014 by being disciplined and united.”

      That is the most accurate comment yet.

      Discipline is a problem for all political parties.

      The SNP have been in power for many years, and with no real opposition likely to be so for more. Part of the problem is that power corrupts, but familiarity breeds contempt and is more dangerous politically. There have been two incidents recently, where the sitting MP/MSP behaved with contempt to their constituents.

      Now the First Minister cannot be expected to micro-manage her MPs/MSPs, but there should be the confidence and trust in her ministers and high profile MPs/MSPs. If they fuck up – kick them out of the party (after proper consideration of course). There are many talented candidates who could replace them. If anything, it would send the message that nobody is bigger than the party and the cause.

    64. Dogbiscuit says:

      This people are sleep walking into a very bad dream. Johnson and Sturgeon share an agenda They want tightly managed population a form of communism for the masses and cronie capitalism for the bosses. We’re being made sick while Government pushes drugs for pharmaceutical companies.
      You really should watch UK Column News and don’t say you haven’t been warned folks.

    65. Graeme McAllan says:

      The old well known Scottish tactic, Deny,Deny,Deny – alright then, OK 😉

    66. Capella says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood – OK I can agree to disagree 🙂 I do wonder who you think should lead the independence movement and/or the SNP?

      I would certainly vote for the ISP on the list in 2021. The Greens are even more wokey than the SNP so that rules out supporting them. The ISP could sharpen the minds of indy voters and focus on the main goal. Getting rid of the unionist drones is a high priority.
      They are most likely aware of that. Hence the ramping up of unionist propaganda in the media.

    67. robbo says:

      So many geniuses on here you’d thought we should have plan A,B,C,D _all the way to Z ,but naw same auld whinging all through it.

      Some others are getting on with the task.The court case should sort wheat from the chaff and a firm plan ahead.
      Brought by less than 2000 of us.

      Anti Nicola brigade can carry on giving the ammo to yoons- fill yir boots!

    68. Capella says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood – it’s not just a matter of “belief” BTW. The SNP put the Referendum framework bill through Holyrood, which got Royal Assent, and referred the question to the Electoral Commission. If the structure is in place the campaign is easily organised. They always said they wanted a short campaign.

    69. velofello says:

      Note the tone of Nicola Sturgeon’s description of Brexit – lunacy? – so maybe, just maybe, the desire of the Scots to remain as EU citizens – 62% wasn’t it? – is the mandate to declare that Scotland is not prepared to leave the EU and so challenge this assumed authority of Westminster and it’s unwritten constitution.

      Justification – 62% voted to remain in the EU.
      Scotland’s absolute exclusion from Brexit negotiations.

    70. Joe says:

      Im not even sure i want indy at this moment. Sturgeons Scotland would have biased/unjust courts, vague hate speech laws with 7 year sentences, a mosque on every corner, bearded non menstruating people showering with wee lassies, us all on our knees begging forgiveness from non white people while much of our autonomy gets handed back over to a different group of incompetent assholes – only in Brussels

    71. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Capella –

      I used the word ‘faith’, not ‘belief’. The difference isn’t worth arguing over but it’s real nonetheless – my belief that indy is inevitable is as strong as it ever was but I have no faith in this current leadership.

      As to alternatives? Well, it won’t happen, but everyone’s allowed a dream-team so, FWIW, mine would be (SNP-wise) Joanna Cherry as FM, Angus MacNeil as deputy. For the indyref2 team, Alex Salmond in the Blair Jenkins’ role (Chief Executive), Tommy Sheridan as Campaign Manager, and Lesley Riddoch to oversee/coordinate anything BBC-related!

      There – that’s my team!

      😉

    72. Joe says:

      In fact id say that if the SNP get their way the penny would drop with the electorate and a possible scenario is a mass petition to Westminster begging them to step in and take some power away. Scotland then becomes the only nation to start leaving Britain who needed them to come back. This looks like trolling. Its not. Its a possible future.

    73. Vinny says:

      Beaker

      The english also made heroes out of Churchill and Montgomery,,, telling anyone who would listen that those two single handedly won the War

      And we still here it from the english right up to the present day

      Along with Vera Lynne and the Battle of Britain.

      The english just love re writing history to suit their own deluded egos.

    74. Capella says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood – point taken ( re faith/belief – one for the semantics). Your dream team sounds absolutely brilliant. Of course, the forces of evil will move in to destroy their reputations and destroy their credibility as always.

      Should this dream team materialise we will all be challenged to maintain our support in the face of implacable opposition. Who will turn and flee?

      Re Alex Salmond – I’ve always respected his opinion. He told us in 2014 after the referendum to join something. He would prefer if we joined the SNP but if not, join anything. I joined the SNP.

      He asked us to support The National as the only independence supporting newspaper. I subscribed and still do.

      He endorsed Nicola Sturgeon as party leader and First Minister. I still respect that judgement.

      Now Alex is very committed to independence. The dream shall never die. He will do whatever is necessary to achieve that goal. I am happy to follow his lead.

    75. Vinny says:

      Usual dreamers hanging about.

      The Sturgeon Ra Ra Club

      Give us an S
      Give us a T
      Give us a U
      Give us a …

      Ask not what your country can do for you,
      Ask what you can do for your country

      Ok, I want to do something for my country

      I want to help kick out the comotose leader of the SNP

      Who has compromised our right to have a referendum on Scottish Independence.

      Why has she done this?

      No one knows why,,,she just has.

    76. stonefree says:

      @Ian Brotherhood at 9:27 pm

      The team? That’s more than likely the best
      Sheridan should always be a main player, under Sturgeon’s SNP followers will try to scupper TS. The party don’t like anyone outside the party

    77. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Capella –

      ‘Of course, the forces of evil will move in to destroy their reputations and destroy their credibility as always.’

      The only person I mentioned who *isn’t* somehow tainted already (deservedly or not) is Joanna Cherry – all of the others have blotted copybooks. And that, to my mind anyway, makes them more credible. (Unless they’ve been up to further mischief since they were originally rumbled!)

    78. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Capella –

      Maybe not fair to ask this given that you’ve openly stated your reasons for supporting NS, but what if she *did* chuck it, tomorrow, for whatever reason?

      Who would you see as a replacement? Bookies favourite right now is Humza.

      And what about the indyref2 campaign team?

      Genuinely curious.

    79. Capella says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood – We can’t underestimate the ferocity of the British state. They are capable of anything. The current vilification of Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon is most likely their work.

      “Vinny” quotes JFK “Ask not what your country can do for you…”

      JFK was murdered by the CIA under Allen Dulles because he challenged the power of the corporations, the military industrial complex. That’s what happens to people who challenge the power of the corporations aka fascists. I don’t want to sound over dramatic. But politics is the art of the possible and that isn’t easy because you have to stay alive to achieve anything.

    80. Capella says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood – sorry missed your last post. If NS resigned I would like to see someone from the rational wing of the party to take over. If Joanna Cherry is elected then she would be grand. Otherwise Ash Denholm, Marie Gougeon ?, Ruth Maguire, Jeanne Freeman, Ivan McKee, maybe Humza Yousaf depending on what happens with the Hate Crime Bill.

      Campaign team – I’d like Alex Salmond, Tommy Sheridan, Craig Murray and Lesley Riddoch in there. There will be many others capable of moving the campaign forward.

    81. Alasdair Galloway says:

      But, you’re asking the wrong people the wrong question. It is NOT the voters who will grant a S30, but the Tory govt at WM. I dare say you would get a no more encouraging response down there, though. Perhaps the question should be (something like) “would you commit to non-violent action to put pressure on the UK govt to grant a s30 order?”

    82. Capella says:

      Joan McAlpine too!

    83. Lorna Campbell says:

      So long as we keep insisting on a referendum – any referendum – and a large majority, we are going nowhere. We have boxed ourselves into a cul-de-sac by insisting that only a referendum will do. It is, quite literally, absolute ordure. No UN law or anything else exists that insists on a pre independence referendum. No country seeking independence needs to hold a pre independence referendum.

      We have the Treaty. 50% + 1 of three consecutive polls or a majority of seats/votes or a mandate from the electorate or a sweep of the Holyrood seats are all enough in themselves to bring a case to resile the Treaty. If we don’t, any independence negotiations, if we ever take independence, that is, will be hi-jacked, just as the Union was, by England-as-the-UK, and they will use the Treaty against us. Don’t believe it if you choose, but Cameron gave their game away in 2013.

      They will strip every asset and resource from us and if we are too spineless to get back those 6000 square miles of our waters, we can donate at least 50% of all fisheries and oil/gas fields/any mineral deposits, etc. to England-as-the-UK’s retirement fund for its long-term stay in the US rone pipe as a parasitic squatter.

      That is why they wanted jurisdiction over a chunk of our seas with almost no fish and almost no oil or gas deposits. If someone doesn’t start to use their brain and pre-empt this situation, Scotland will, quite literally, be a region of a Greater England with no rights at all, no resources and no assets.

      Stop pandering to bloody NO voters and start using international law. We have had a majority for independence for over decade, but, no, a one-time referendum that they fixed so that they could thwart independence is keeping us in thrall to a bunch of psychopaths and fascists, imperialist/colonialists and men with heads considerably smaller than their necks. Resiling the Treaty is democratic. Resiling the Treaty is legal. Keep on petitioning the SG till either they do it or explain why they won’t do it. Threaten their seats.

      Every excuse under the sun is used now to avoid telling the flat earthers and anti evolutionists to F off. The woke, right-on brigade is destroying the party and will destroy independence.

    84. Ian Brotherhood says:

      I’ve commented enough on this thread already but just want to say, Lorna Campbell (10.56) – hear hear hear!!!

      And, Capella – Joan McAlpine? Great shout. Our ‘dream teams’ are almost identical.

      😉

    85. Neil H says:

      Seen Jack Deeth’s Pinned tweet? “Vote for whoever you want to see represented in Holyrood. But if you want a pro-indy majority, it should be (#)BothVotesSNP.

      What use is Deeth’s pro-Indy majority if it gets us SNP who seem anything but’pro-indy’?

    86. Capella says:

      Me too. Nite nite everyone. Sweet dreams.

    87. Alec Lomax says:

      Joe: you do slaver a lot of pish.

    88. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Capella –

      Same to you, and thanks for the gab, appreciated.

      😉

    89. mark whittet says:

      19 Jun 2020

      OFFICIAL: SNP’s Plan-A for Scottish Independence is dead – even if SNP win 70 MSPs / 70 MPs!

      https://tinyurl.com/y7nnhyl4

      So here’s Plan-B: Here’s how
      https://tinyurl.com/yc7my6qm

      Read. Learn. Support. Join. Retweet
      http://www.SIRP.Scot

    90. Ruglonian says:

      Dan @5.39pm

      “Scotland, the only country that thought tactics was a type of mint…”

      I’ve never heard that line before – it’s brilliant 😀 😀 😀

    91. CameronB Brodie says:

      “Disagree, fine, debate/dispute, fine, but any sort of banning is exactly what is going wrong with this World. God forbid offending anyone, ever!”

      It would appear ahundredthidiot is not in favour of social order supported through the rule-of-law. Not that I’m a bit surprised, frankly.

      Exploring legal discourse: a sociosemiotic (re)construction
      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10350330.2019.1587841

    92. yesbot says:

      Totally agree Lorna, so good you are posting here again.

      We are in such a dire situation, complete totalitarian impasse @ SNP.

      The question: can the party actually be reclaimed ?

    93. Vinny says:

      Boris is planning a Brexit BritNat blitz around the globe

      He plans to sell Team engerland to the world, and I mean Team engerland.

      Any company who is going to be crazy enough to invest in Team engerland is going to be ordered by Boris to build their factory in engerland. Well more precisely, in the South East of Engerland.

      Scotland will not get a look in when it comes to any new companies being set up in Brexit engerland.

    94. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Feeling slightly chuffed – I’ve been quoted on the Friends Of Wings Twitter feed.

      Strange in a way, as nobody here thought it was worth a response…

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-deadest-duck/comment-page-1/#comment-2540937

    95. mr thms says:

      A new bill was announced yesterday.

      https://beta.parliament.scot/bills/uk-withdrawal-from-the-european-union-continuity-scotland-bill-2020

      “This Bill aims to make sure that Scottish law can continue to align with EU law after 31 December 2020.

      This Bill will help Scottish law keep up with future developments in EU law after 31 December. It will also allow changes to be made to EU laws which are already operating in Scotland. This could apply to areas that are devolved to Scotland, like the environment, agriculture and fisheries.

      This Bill does 3 main things. It:

      gives Scottish Ministers power to keep devolved laws similar to EU laws

      ensures Scottish Ministers and public bodies pay attention to environmental principles when they make policies

      sets up a new organisation to replace the oversight of environmental law provided by the EU”

      Does it also mean the UK government and the Scottish government would need to agree changes to EU laws that apply to devolved areas such as agriculture and fisheries?

    96. Beaker says:

      @Vinny says:
      19 June, 2020 at 9:42 pm
      Beaker
      “Along with Vera Lynne and the Battle of Britain.
      The english just love re writing history to suit their own deluded egos.”

      Bit unfair about Vera Lynn. She had the guts to travel to Burma.

      @Vinny says:
      20 June, 2020 at 12:50 am
      “Boris is planning a Brexit BritNat blitz around the globe”

      Boris will be gone by the end of the year. The total clusterfuck of the handling of COVID-19 will be fully exposed. Despite his majority, I think his own party will kick him out of office.

    97. Breeks says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      19 June, 2020 at 8:39 pm

      …..That can be demonstrated by,

      a) A majority in a referendum (actually rare, historically)
      or
      b) A party or parties having in their manifesto that if they achieve a majority of seats/votes, then that is taken as a mandate to start independence negotiations with the “parent” state.

      I maintain there is a third option which is to defend a pre-existing constitutional situation being overruled by an act of colonial subjugation contrary to International law.

      If someone steals your wallet, your ownership of the wallet and your right to have it returned are protected by the law and legal principle, not being able to demonstrate a majority in public opinion.

      Scotland’s Constitutional Rights are being usurped by a colonial aggressor, and the law can be used to defeat that subjugation irrespective of public opinion or democratic mandate.

      Furthermore, using the law to determine that the Treaty of Union is breached puts all the onus for breaching the Treaty onto the reckless infidelity of Westminster, which puts Scotland in a much stronger bargaining position than Scotland electing to leave the Union.

    98. twathater says:

      @ Julia Gibb 6.30pm , Julia you have complained that people are not proposing alternatives to the current shit fest , I and MANY others have exhorted and pleaded with the SNP membership to get a grip of the party

      Currently ONLY the membership can sort out the situation and from what I have read on here ,other blogs and twatter many people have tried but are being ignored

      The ONLY way us non members can address the situation is by NOT voting for the SNP in any forthcoming elections , BUT that means shooting ourselves in the foot as that may let in a lunatic yoonatic SG , which NS knows and is using against us

      So back to you Julia what are the SNP membership willing to do to TAKE BACK CONTROL OF THE PARTY

    99. twathater says:

      BrianDTT and Breeks @ 3.54am what you have STATED repeatedly Breeks is the educated simplistic route , so much so that it defies logic why it has not been done , Scots voted overwhelmingly 62% to 38% to REMAIN in the EU yet the FM of our government which we ELECTED to act in our benefit is allowing the WM snake pit to force us out of the EU without even so much as a legal challenge to our sovereignty , again we have to ask just who is she working for us or them

    100. Stoker says:

      @ Lorna Campbell on 19 June, 2020 at 10:56 pm:

      Thank you for your refreshing input above. You said:

      “Stop pandering to bloody NO voters and start using international law. We have had a majority for independence for over decade, but, no, a one-time referendum that they fixed so that they could thwart independence is keeping us in thrall to a bunch of psychopaths and fascists, imperialist/colonialists and men with heads considerably smaller than their necks. Resiling the Treaty is democratic. Resiling the Treaty is legal. Keep on petitioning the SG till either they do it or explain why they won’t do it. Threaten their seats.”

      Would you, since you appear to know exactly what you’re talking about, consider setting up an official parliament (Holyrood) petition asking Sturgeon &/or ScotGov to change their tactics to “Resiling The Treaty” or explain their reasons for refusing?

      I’m sure if you did and every single one of us got behind you and helped promote that petition via every outlet possible for, say, 2-months to get us through the worst of this pandemic we could get considerable numbers behind it.

      You would know the exact wording & explanation(s) etc to put on this petition, most of us wouldn’t have a clue where to even begin. If it’s as simple as you say then i for one am all for getting behind you and working to promote it.

      Either way we can be no worse off than we are at present but we’d (hopefully) be far further through this pandemic than we are at present and into a zone where Sturgeon can no longer hide.

      So with all this in mind i seriously ask & plead with you to consider taking on this task and i’m sure most of us will support you and the petition. And are there any real legal experts among the WOS readership willing to team up with Lorna throughout the petition creation and campaign?

      Please! I’ve had about all i can take with all this Sturgeon stalling and being forced to endure living in what is increasingly becoming The DominiCum Republic.

      Hey! Maybe someday you could write a book on all this Lorna? We’ve already had ‘London Calling’ about the bbc part in our fight for indy, maybe your book could be called ‘Surgeon Stalling’. 🙂

    101. Stoker says:

      ‘Sturgeon Stalling’ even! 🙂

    102. Stoker says:

      BTW, folks, i’m still seeing a minority referring to this magical 60%. Who official has stated that exact number? Please don’t directly link me to the evidence as i can look for it my self.

      Who’s responsible for saying 60% is the green light?

    103. Stoker says:

      And here’s another thing, i’m still seeing folk *wrongly* repeating the mantra “permission” when referring to an S30.

      WOS has already taught us in various articles that it is *not* about permission. We don’t need anyone’s permission to hold a referendum. We can have them every day of the week were we so inclined, and if we could financially afford to of course.

      An S30 is all about getting the UKGov to agree to accept and abide by the result of any referendum. There’s a world of difference. We need no permission from anyone but we do need Westminster to accept any result. If they don’t things *could* get very ugly very quickly.

    104. Willie says:

      Quite frankly, you’d have more chance believing that the Tooth Fairy will bring us independence than the the current SNP policies. – and the voters know it.

      Must keep looking under my pillow every morning!

    105. robbo says:

      Maybe if folk keep upto date with current affairs instead of blabbin aboot in forums they would see that there’s already a movement taking the bull by the horns.

      Forward as one. Near 2000 started it,what have you done? Ask yourself’s

    106. Sensibledave says:

      Vinny 9.42

      You wrote “The english also made heroes out of Churchill and Montgomery,,, telling anyone who would listen that those two single handedly won the War“

      … total BS. They are revered and appreciated.

      “And we still here it from the english right up to the present day“

      … No you don’t.

      “Along with Vera Lynne and the Battle of Britain.“

      … not worthy of a comment.

      “The english just love re writing history to suit their own deluded egos.“

      … So if I wrote “the Scots are so mean spirited, so desperate for independence that they just make s*** up and create straw man arguments to vilify all folk From England because Scots are so stupid that they think that it will be attractive to other SCOTS voters that they have not won over to the cause” … is that ok?

      Vinny, you are up there with Cammy with your stereotyping and bigotry.

    107. Capella says:

      @ BDTT – I saw your comment last night and meant to add – I agree. Can’t put it better than what you said. 🙂

    108. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sensibledave
      I backed up my assertions with social science, where as you only have your own self-conceit to support your opinion.

      Do you believe Britain is one nation? If not do you believe in the principles of limited government and equality in law? I understand how liberal constitutionalism is supposed to work, where as you appear to be a typical Tory bigot. Prove me wrong, and I don’t mean by carrying on making cheap, unsubstantiated, accusation.

    109. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sensibledave
      If you are able to intellectually refute this, I’ll accept I’m a pseudo-intellectual and cultural bigot. If not, then I ask you to accept your cultural bias and lack of respect for Scotland as a nation distinct from England.

      Yuri Lotman on metaphors and culture as
      self-referential semiospheres

      Abstract
      Yuri Lotman describes metaphors and culture as semiospheres or ‘semiotic spaces.’ This account of metaphors is self-referential insofar as it is itself expressed in the form of a metaphor. Moreover, according to Lotman, cultures in general are self-referential systems insofar as they tend to define themselves and evince isomorphic semiotic spaces at mutually inclusive levels and metalevels.

      Lotman describes semiospheres on the basis of dualisms, levels, stratifications, and spatial opposites that exemplify the Tartu semiotician’s theory of the duality of the discreteness of semiotic spaces and their verbal representations versus the continuity of physical space and
      of pictorial representation.

      Keywords:
      semiosphere; metaphor; self-reference; culture; mental space.

      https://philarchive.org/archive/NTHYLOv1

    110. Sensibledave says:

      Cammy

      Please try and get this through your incredibly dense skull.

      Just because somebody wrote down their opinion and used long words … it doesn’t make what they have written the definitive truth! It is their opinion … and, generally speaking, social scientists get it completely wrong eg GRA.

    111. John says:

      Wings is great. And it has put up some telling polls

      But does anyone feel like one too many polls have been sanctioned lately? Wee bit of a waste?

    112. Robert Louis says:

      Regarding the subject of the article by RevSTU, and the complete and utter failure of ‘Plan A’. I find it breathtaking, the conceited nature of Pete Wishart’s comments on this subject.

      Given that it is totally obvious Westminster will not grant a section 30, I can only conclude that the SNP continuance of the plan A, is either

      1. Because they imagine that by repeatedly asking, eventually Boris will one day say, ‘you know, those Scots are right, let’s give them a section 30’. Of course nobody apart from Nicola Sturgeon and Pete Wishart believe that.

      2. The SNP leadership know full well that a section 30 will not be granted, so use its denial as an excuse to do nothing for the cause of independence.

      I believe it is the latter. The SNP are duds. They have no fight in them, no desire to achieve independence, all they want is to get re-elected, to spend another five years doing sweet f all for Scotland.

      I said this last year, and have decided to stick to it. Come the next Scots elections, I will actively work against the SNP. Some folk will say that is crazy, since they are our only chance for independence, but I don’t think they are. You are now as likely to get independence by voting Tory in Scotland, as you are by voting SNP. It is abundantly clear they have zero intention of even trying a different approach.

      So, I will give my second vote to a political party aiming for independence – which isn’t the SNP btw, and my first vote will go unused.

      I have no respect for the SNP leadership. They have utterly betrayed the indy supporters in Scotland. Do they care?? Nope, not a bit. Their arrogance on this topic beggars belief, just look at Pete Wishart’s latest conceited nonsense as proof.

      No, the SNP is rotten to the core, and only a period OUT of office will lead to the changes required. Voting for them again, will achieve nothing, except prolong the political careers of a bunch of charlatans who have taken the indy vote for granted. The SNP ARE ‘new’ Scottish Labour. Their fate shall hopefully be the same.

      Independence, for now, in Scotland is dead. Thanks to Nicola Sturgeon and her wokeist cabal.

    113. Robert Louis says:

      Breeks at 0354am,

      Yet another excellent post.

    114. Robert Louis says:

      Lorna Campbell at 1056pm,

      An excellent post, and I totally agree. A referendum is NOT essential, and in the case of most independent countries was not even attempted. One point you made is worth repeating, so I’ll quote it here

      ” Resiling the Treaty is democratic. Resiling the Treaty is legal. Keep on petitioning the SG till either they do it or explain why they won’t do it. Threaten their seats.”

      This is the point, a democratic mandate can be an electoral result. Many countries go on much less. The second the result is in, the treaty is ended, then and only then, do we start discussing things with England.

    115. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sensibledave
      Thank for confirming you are rather narrow minded and a bit full of yourself, which epitomises English Torydum, frankly. You need to remember, I can do this all day. 🙂

      The Moral Ties That Bind . . . Even to Out-Groups: The Interactive Effect of Moral Identity and the Binding Moral Foundations

      Abstract
      Throughout history, principles such as obedience, loyalty, and purity have been instrumental in binding people together and helping them thrive as groups, tribes, and nations. However, these same principles have also led to in-group favoritism, war, and even genocide. Does adhering to the binding moral foundations that underlie such principles unavoidably lead to the derogation of out-group members?

      We demonstrated that for people with a strong moral identity, the answer is “no,” because they are more likely than those with a weak moral identity to extend moral concern to people belonging to a perceived out-group.

      Across three studies, strongly endorsing the binding moral foundations indeed predicted support for the torture of out-group members (Studies 1a and 1b) and withholding of necessary help from out-group members (Study 2), but this relationship was attenuated among participants who also had a strong moral identity.

      Keywords
      moral identity, moral-foundations theory, binding foundations, circle of moral regard

      http://sites.nd.edu/lapseylab/files/2016/09/Moral-Ties-that-Bind.pdf

    116. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. It’s not the social scientists who’ve gotten it wrong, though things did go a bit strange in the 1980 & ’90s. It’s the politicians who don’t understand the significance of respecting the biological differences between the sexes, who have it profoundly wrong.

      It is ellements of the medical establishment that appears to be rejecting the bioecosocial model of health, in favoure of a fully constructavist model. It is the Scottish legal establishment that appears happy to conflate sex with gender, thereby legally endorsing and consolidating cultural misogyny. So don’t go blaming those of us who are trying to sort out the mess created in the past.

      Gender Trouble in Social Psychology: How Can Butler’s Work Inform Experimental Social Psychologists’ Conceptualization of Gender?

      Abstract
      A quarter of a century ago, philosopher Judith Butler (1990) called upon society to create “gender trouble” by disrupting the binary view of sex, gender, and sexuality. She argued that gender, rather than being an essential quality following from biological sex, or an inherent identity, is an act which grows out of, reinforces, and is reinforced by, societal norms and creates the illusion of binary sex.

      Despite the fact that Butler’s philosophical approach to understanding gender has many resonances with a large body of gender research being conducted by social psychologists, little theorizing and research within experimental social psychology has drawn directly on Butler’s ideas. In this paper, we will discuss how Butler’s ideas can add to experimental social psychologists’ understanding of gender.

      We describe the Butler’s ideas from Gender Trouble and discuss the ways in which they fit with current conceptualizations of gender in experimental social psychology. We then propose a series of new research questions that arise from this integration of Butler’s work and the social psychological literature. Finally, we suggest a number of concrete ways in which experimental social psychologists can incorporate notions of gender performativity and gender trouble into the ways in which they research gender.

      Keywords:
      gender trouble, gender, gender performativity, social psychology, non-binary gender, genderqueer, Judith Butler

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6072877/

    117. susan says:

      @Robert Louis, I too am scunnered with the SNP and unless I get confirmation from my MSP that he will NOT be supporting any science-denying gender shit,I too will spoil my first vote. It breaks my heart to say that but this nonsense must be stopped in it’s tracks, the SNP cleared out and independence put top of the agenda.

    118. Andrew (Andy) Crow says:

      I wonder what the divorce rate would be if abused partners needed the permission of abusive partners to sue/file for divorce……..

      Did any country ever become independent by asking permission?

    119. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Julia Gibb,

      You say that too many folk are whinging and taking shots at the SNP. You write that this is all there is. Whinge. You ask why no other YES party has been formed. I get it. I understand your frustration and that of the majority who comment here.

      But.

      We all seem to forget at times of the finest First Minister Scotland ever had. He is still around. Our King from across the sea.

      Julia, I promise you and everyone here and beyond…

      THERE IS A POLITICAL TSUNAMI COMING THIS WAY AND WILL HIT SCOTLAND LIKE A YOON-VAPOURISING ASTEROID.

      THAT book will be a catalyst to electrify and re-energise the country.

      ONCE COVID-19 IS AMELIORATED BY A VACCINE OR FULL COCKTAIL OF MEDICATION INCLUDING DEXAMETHASONE, THEN BONNIE DUNDEE AND HIS BUNNET WILL RETURN.

      Julia, I just watched Alex Salmond, ever the statesman, always the towering politician, give one of the finest speeches of his life.

      After being put through an abuse of the judicial system by Police Scotland at the behest of McWoke fifth columnist SNP High Command – to Hell and back, his instinct was to PROTECT the very media who try their utmost TO DESTROY HIM AND HIS LEGACY EVERY DAY.

      The reason we do NOT have any other political party just now is because of Covid-19. in the name of the wee man…

      IT AIN’T SAFE.

      But.

      When it is safe, can you imagine what every voter in Scotland, including the Yoons and those SNP die-hards that cannot see past St Nicola will feel when the word is out, when that book is published?

      The revulsion of the entire YES movement and a large tranche of the NOs when those amateur office managing gossipy amadan alphabet groupies are outed (they don’t need to be named).

      A redacted fake-rape alleger is just as disgusting as a named one.

      Everyone will know these people are reptiles whether they are called Jane Doe or Susie McGubbins fae the scheme.

      All men should dread the fake-rape women. The Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned brigade.

      Whilst those who have experienced or have had to counsel those through rape get OUTRAGED at how much damage the fake-rape-allegers do to genuine rape victims.

      Both of these groups will have a LOT to say (and vote upon).

      When the SNP senior people with their fingerprints all over this have to explain their sleekit affront to ALL things just, decent, honest and fair, their erses will be booted oot the door.

      Nicola Sturgeon’s proximity to those who thought it a politically wise STUNT to get a former First Minister JAILED for many years on trumped-up charges just to get Eck out of her political way, will have consequences, the truth will see Nicola Sturgeon as popular in the SNP as Tony Blair is to Labour.

      On letting one of my YES voting friends, currently working in France know the state of affairs here when he thought Nicola came over very well during the Covid press updates, I sent him one of Stuart Campbell’s links…

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-betrayer/

      His reply?

      “Get that Dreghorn bin7 tae fu** , the manky wee lying ingrate reptile.

      He was a fan of Nicola. Now, not so much.

      Julie, if you have any doubt about what a real First Minister looks like, here is a video showing all of us the media, ignoring safe distancing and being saved from themselves by a man that has every reason to wish them harm. But he is a towering human being who keeps his promises, looks after ALL Scots and who will, one way or another, get us to become an Independent nation…

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LJFqgZTeLew

    120. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Sick of the drip feed and selective release of polling data. Just get it out and let us see the other questions.”

      By now you’ve hopefully realised that this poll was a joint one commissioned by several different organisations, so I had no more idea of what the other results were than you did, and even if I had they wouldn’t have been mine to release. But hey, congratulations on the tone. Really persuasive.



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