The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland


Loving the jailer

Posted on June 22, 2020 by

On the face of it, this finding from our latest Panelbase poll isn’t very surprising:

But then again, maybe it is.

Because we bet you wouldn’t have predicted this breakdown of the numbers:

Because by a notable margin, it’s SNP voters and Yes voters who most want to use public money to bail out the very same newspapers who uniformly spend all their time bitterly attacking the SNP and independence.

We should note that both groups are still against the idea overall. But for Yessers the margin is a fairly tight 16 points, whereas No voters oppose it by a crushing 40 points.

And while SNP voters were the most in favour of the idea, by an even closer 12 points, it was Tories – the overwhelming main beneficiaries of UK and Scottish media bias – who were utterly against, by a huge 64 points.

It’s traditionally Unionists who get accused of Stockholm Syndrome in Scotland. But SNP/Yes supporters’ defence of the people who despise and mistreat them seems here to be edging from admirable fair-mindedness towards plain self-harm.

It may be that the phrasing of the question has led them to reflexively and instinctively defend the actions of the Scottish Government. And it could also be that the SNP’s pathological subservience to the mainstream press and reluctance to attack it has just rubbed off on voters. We don’t know. Readers can make of it what they will.

Print Friendly

    1 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

    1. 22 06 20 12:56

      Loving the jailer | speymouth

    313 to “Loving the jailer”

    1. Andy Ellis says:

      I think the likeliest explanation is that most Yessers see themselves as progressive, communitarian, in favour of free speech, a free press and *wish* they had a mainstream media very different from what they actually have.

      Few can really be unaware that what we have have isn’t what we deserve or need….but perhaps mad as it may seem their desire to “work as though they live in the early years of a better nation” deserves at least some credit…?

    2. Ron Maclean says:

      ‘Fools and their money…’

    3. Wulls says:

      Christ on a bike…….
      There is no excuse for that…..

    4. Rob says:

      Taking a lead from your closing paragraph, might the Tory/No/Lab etc. also have an element of “SNP/Scot gov. doing it, therefore baaaad.”

    5. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Sounds to me a bit like hoping against hope.

      The SNP/YES know the print media is attacking them but maybe, just maybe, if we throw some money at them to keep them alive, they’ll suddenly start to be a bit nicer to us with better news.

      You can call it Stockholm Syndrome or wimpering delusions or whatever.

    6. Edward Andrews says:

      I was one of the people who got asked for the poll. I took the line of why should we subsidise the very rich owners. However I was aware of the counter argument that there is the odd local paper which is still independent.
      I also took the line that it is the Unionist propaganda machine.
      In an independent Scotland we will have to rediscover an independent media as no doubt even the most benign government will have to be held to account. There is a difference between newspapers and propaganda media. Unfortunately the British state no longer believes that.

    7. Johnny says:

      Most points taken as read.

      I think Tories generally think “sink or swim” about everything.

      Also think the more delusional believe they are hard done to in media.

      Some of them, as a mirror of those reflexively defending the SG, will also hate it just because “Sturgeon did it”.

    8. MightyS says:

      If the SNP are going to persist in denying Scotland a sensible progression to independence, then they’re gonna need the MSM to protect them when their ex-voters start protesting against them. That’s why they got that wee kindly donation. Nothing to do with jobs etc.

      And these rags will happily support the SNP once they know they’ve morphed into the Devolution Party and won’t agitate for independence.

    9. Andrew F says:

      What an incredible (as in – very difficult to believe) coincidence!

      Just today here in Australia our version of the BBC (ours is ABC – and has also fallen roughly the same distance downward in respect) was suggesting our tax dollars should be used to bail out these warmongering ultra-free-market propagandists too by making the purchase price a tax deduction!

      Headline: “Proposal to treat media as a type of charity to save local and suburban journalists”

    10. Republicofscotland says:

      I really don’t know what to make of it, I’m astonished, to see a such fair amount of yessers and SNP supporters think that it’s a good idea to save unionist newspapers that have actively bent over backwards to maintain the status quo and thwart Scottish independence at every turn.

      Stockholm Syndrome indeed.

    11. lothianlad says:

      correct, its the SNP pathological subservience to the mainstream press which has rubbed of on voters.

    12. Stoker says:

      Thick as shit in the neck of a bottle. But what can we truly expect when almost all SNP representatives on Twatter at some point post direct links to those very same BUM rags. Hardly setting a good example.

      Always reminds me of when both Salmond & Sturgeon spoke fondly of the bbc and encouraged us not to worry about it or bother with it. Aye! If it wasn’t so fricken serious i would laugh my arse off. Truly mindboggling!

    13. Thomas Dunlop says:

      Sounds a bit like love thy enemies spirit of early Christians, trying to win converts, even amongst the heathens

    14. Vivian O'Blivion says:

      If the favourability towards bailing out the MSM expressed by SNP supporters is reflexive of support for the Scottish Government (which seems the most reasonable explanation to me) it puts followers of this (and other blogs) in an inferred minority.
      The seemingly odd position of Tory voters can be explained by the AIPAC syndrome where an all powerful lobby are pathologically set on seeing themselves as a put upon victim in all circumstances (no, don’t laugh that’s their perspective on the world). In terms of exercising raw political power this deluded position is actually highly effective. The wet liberals (a description that covers the present leadership of the SNP) bend over backward to be “reasonable” and to “accommodate the opinions of others” and gets fundamentally shafted as a result.

    15. Thomas Dunlop says:

      As for the core No. Well it just shows that they are essentially the ultra conservative, misanthropic element of society that hates everything

    16. gerry says:

      I think the mention of coronavirus pandemic is important, a feeling that public sector support is important for all at such a time..

    17. jfngw says:

      Hardly a surprising result from the Tory voters, they don’t think anything should be subsidised unless it happens to be their business or something to their advantage. Also as most are unionist they would quite happily see Scottish papers disappear and have us consume the English version.

      Difficult to see the reason for the SNP support, unless they dislike the idea of people losing their jobs, there is more than journalists in this mix. The same argument could be used for the BBC licence fee, there are independence supporters that work there, maybe not in important positions but it is their livelihood.

    18. Effijy says:

      We are dealing with life and death circumstances and we
      Do have a duty of care to inform all members of the public
      About how they must control the virus from spreading and
      Any symptoms they must look out for.

      If someone doesn’t use TV but buys a newspaper then we
      Have got to inform through that medium.

      UK media are a real nasty piece of work happy to lie, distort
      and bury any story that suits their Unionist agenda.
      I’ll be happy to see them go but the rich will then direct their bile
      On TV and Internet.

    19. Auld Rock says:

      At last in Andy Ellis, we have somebody showing writing some sense. Once we are Independent we will need a free democratic Press and they’ll quickly change their tune when they find that their yoon rubbish does not sell papers. Once Ireland settled down after 1922 the former yoon metro-centric press started paying attention to the Politics and the affairs of the Republic and I’ll bet the same will happen in Scotland – even the Hootsmon and Record are not the stupid.

    20. Neil Mackenzie says:

      I can’t help but wonder and wonder some more if there’s any connection between the media slurring of Alex Salmond, the disparaging of his aquittal on all charges and this 3 million quid bung.

    21. Gary45% says:

      I don’t pay the TV licence and don’t buy news?papers.
      So I better not comment.

    22. MaggieC says:

      I had just posted this on previous thread

      Also interesting on Bbc Parliament channel just now live is the “ Future of journalism “ committee ,
      I don’t know if this is a new committee or not as I don’t remember hearing about this committee before .

      Ps . Just found out that it’s the “ Communication Committee “ asking the questions to various journalists

    23. defo says:

      Something dodgy afoote this £.

    24. JP says:

      There is an FBPEU-ification of large chunks of the Yes movement / SNP supporter base. For all the passion about overturning some orthodoxies they also instinctively rally to what are perceived as ‘Sensible’ mainstream voices on a whole range of issues. And now that an increasing number of Scottish journos are acting like the FM’s own personal praetorian guard, that also has an obvious effect on how her supporters perceive their publications.

    25. Breeks says:

      I’m not that surprised.

      Back in 2014, even in the midst of the Indy Campaign, apart from some very notable exceptions, there was neither the appetite nor the perceived necessity to contest the skewed narrative and Unionist propaganda on TV. I distinctly remember both Blair Jenkins, and yes a certain Mr Salmond too, asserting there was no bias at the BBC.

      Things have improved tremendously. Thanks to London Calling and Prof John Robertson and other kindred cynics, I would say cynicism and suspicion about the BBC and it’s motives is much more widespread now, (or at least it seems so amongst the people who are paying attention).

      However that leads to the same issues about where people get their information; online, lively and interactive, or, unchallenged and unqualified propaganda on your TV and in your “newspaper”.

      It’s very dangerous for us to be losing blogs and on-line commentaries, because the BritNat Propaganda and Indoctrination is stronger than ever.

      So, in conclusion, I’m not surprised people outside the bubble support their familiar newspapers being “saved”, but why it’s the SNP doing the saving is just another bizarre departure from reason which only the SNP can explain… but won’t.

      If there is a body of the Scottish public still blinkered about the BritNat Media, then I’m sorry to say it’s another indictment of the time that’s been wasted these past few years. We should never, ever, have taken our foot off the gas.

    26. Ron Maclean says:

      One of these days, you never know, we just might, if circumstances and Boris Johnson permit, think about planning an independence campaign. Here’s a load of money so you and your billionaire owners can make sure it fails.

    27. Dogbiscuit says:

      SNP and Yes respondents are perhaps brainwashed because they believe Sturgeon is infallible. I thought the Scots were politically astute but perhaps it’s only the 3 year old Scots who appear in SNP Sturgeon worshiping adverts. It’s a reflection of piss poor leadership from Sturgeon that people like myself who are hot for Independence are trolling our own side. I believe the ‘lockdown’ and the general attitude of the mainly ‘Indy’ Scots given out to anyone who dared question the policy. You do realise you still don’t have any civic rights or freedoms . Right now we’re living by a series of permissions from the state?

    28. A Person says:

      Is it possible that these answers are being over-thought? Isn’t it that subsidising firms with problems to save jobs is a left-wing policy and most Yes supporters are left-leaning. Whereas Tories don’t believe in government intervention so that’s why they’re against it?

      I’m just not convinced this is a Yes/No issue?

    29. Muscleguy says:

      Agreed there will be a lot of SNP/Yes tribalism over Scotgov good regardless. Just like there is over ‘both votes SNP’ even when the List vote will be utterly wasted and will better be given to the ISP to keep Unionist bums off Holyrood seats and present an absolute rock solid Yes majority at Holyrood to Westminster indicating that Scotland is doubling down on wanting out of this septic union.

    30. Dogbiscuit says:

      My previous post unfinished. The supine attitude displayed by many so called ‘ Independistas’ their compliant behaviour and undemocratic response to questions is a great weakness in a movement and an ill omen. What we attempted in 2014 was revolutionary. I don’t see much rebellion in Scotland.
      Is it not ironic that the ordinary Unionist has more regard for democracy than SNPers who are happy for Sturgeon to lock them up and throw the key away with a set of instituted rules to regulate every aspect of our lives for the nice pharmaceutical companies . The BBC is the sheepdog that herded you into house arrest on behalf of crony capitalists like Bill Gates and Professor Neil Ferguson. The Tories have a financial interest in ‘pushing drugs onto a frightened and vulnerable public.

    31. Muscleguy says:

      Also most of the Scottish media are Remain supporting which will of course rile Tory supporters so they will oppose it on that basis.

    32. Ian McCubbin says:

      I think it is insane, and yes Stockholm syndrome. Many I feel that if SNP funds the press it will be less biased.
      Words fail me ????

    33. dakk says:

      ‘It’s traditionally Unionists who get accused of Stockholm Syndrome in Scotland.’

      A novel strain of this condition may have mutated from the original Stockholm outbreak.

      Wisharty Washarty Syndrome 20 appears to be endemic in Scotland.

      It never rains but pours on Scotland.

    34. Dogbiscuit says:

      Neil Mackenzie may have struck a golden ratio. It makes sense.

    35. Dogbiscuit says:

      Wisharty Pisharty syndrome.

    36. robertknight says:

      Rev Stu writes…

      “It may be that the phrasing of the question has led them to reflexively and instinctively defend the actions of the Scottish Government.”

      The knee-jerk reaction is the most likely I’d suggest. I’ll even admit to suffering the same condition from time to time. Then I remind myself of the following, and the feeling goes away…

      The greatest trick the Murrells ever pulled was convincing the SNP they supported independence.

      There… sorted.

    37. Dogbiscuit says:

      Auld Rock only good honest copy gets an audience/ readership.

    38. Dogbiscuit says:

      No matter what the format.

    39. Scozzie says:

      Are there any other private industries that the Scottish Government subsidises to the tune of millions that’s owned by billionaires and overseas media corps ….just asking?

    40. Geordie says:

      Someone else asked if it is possible these answers are being overthought. Not just utterly overthought but tortured.The same applies to the questions. These surveys are now pointless. There will be numerous unknown nuances that influence seemingly counter-intuitive results. The highly subjective interpretations serve only to allow a confirmation bias against the SNP.

      I can’t influence anything at Government level beyond my vote. So until there is a better option I’ll just keep voting SNP, attending Yes marches and spreading the word about Scotland’s potential as an Independent nation.

    41. Dan says:

      @Scozzie

      I recall Raytheon may have recieved funding from the Scottish Government Administration to help them diversify out of weapons component manufacturing.
      Quick google and link.

      https://www.theyworkforyou.com/sp/?id=2019-01-31.15.0

    42. Papko says:

      @ Bono

      2″t’s a reflection of piss poor leadership from Sturgeon that people like myself who are hot for Independence are trolling our own side” Lol

    43. robbo says:

      Oh do cheer up folks,not all is lost.

      robbo says:
      22 June, 2020 at 12:21 pm
      One you may want to look at Rev Stu, if not already done so.

      https://www.drg.global/wp-content/uploads/W15277-Scottish-Omnibus-tables-for-publication-v1-190620.pdf

      Posted this on other thread b4 seen this thread.

    44. robbo says:

      Papko says:
      22 June, 2020 at 1:56 pm
      @ Bono

      2?t’s a reflection of piss poor leadership from Sturgeon that people like myself who are hot for Independence are trolling our own side” Lol

      ———-

      Comedy gold ain’t it! “HOT for independence are trolling our own side” LOL

      For the love of NS.

    45. Robert graham says:

      Oh it’s ok Pete Wishart is on the ball he was probably behind this stupidity , Pete doesn’t believe a plan B is required as Plan A is on coarse and is headed to its planned destination
      A DEAD END ! .

    46. Proud Cybernat says:

      Hard core NO voters won’t ever see the SNP as doing ANY good for ANYONE, including helping the MSM. SNPBAD all the way with them. That’s possibly your answer.

    47. robbo says:

      Listen to https://indylive.radio/shows/tnt-show-special/

      Martin Keatings on now talking about,

      Forward as one.

    48. iain mhor says:

      I think a mixture of the juxtoposition of ‘Scottish Government’ & ‘Advertising’ (belief it’s for promoting the Scottish Government) & liking the Local papers.
      There are plenty of Indy/Yes voters I know of (mostly older, not all) who would be quite irate at the thought of the Local Paper’s demise – I’d have that as the #1 reason.

      No matter how many social media feeds there are; there is no doubt the ‘local’ still holds #1 for Births/deaths/ marriages/ obituaries/Sheriff Court roundups, the Toon’s sports results, local gossip and interest.
      There’s no doubting I do receive much news of immediate import, 2nd & 3rd hand, which originated in ‘The Paper’

      The ‘Nationals’ can kiss ma hoop though and no doubt that’s where all the dosh will go. It’s not beyond reason that ‘certain interested parties’ have identified healthy local print circulation & popularity, against declining national print media and realised they need to have ‘presence’ there.
      Are not BBC *ahem ‘Local Democracy Journos’ being seconded to them on the back of such subsidies, or do I have the wrong end of the shitty stick?

    49. Dan says:

      Struggling wee weapons companies Lockheed Martin and Thales also got a few quid bung.

      https://theferret.scot/arms-firm-uk-government-egypt-torture-children/

    50. liz says:

      I agree with dogbiscuit, There are many loyal NS supporters, who think she can do no wrong – as previously discussed and there are many who think the SNP get so much criticism,they don’t like to think they’re joining in.

      The Alex S video on the previous thread when he kicks Nicol Stevens arse into next week, is what we’ve been missing.
      Righteous anger and passion.

      Now that the official inquiry is underway, there is no need for Alex to hold back

    51. Republicofscotland says:

      If you pay the BBC licence tax, then your money £8 million pounds of it (licence fees) is already funding unionist journalism. When the Scottish government dishes out £3 million more pounds of your hard earned taxes to the unionist press that mocks and derides not just independence but Scotland, you have to ask yourself why are they doing it.

      Why fund unionist newspapers that vehmently oppose Scottish independence? When you are supposed to be the party of independence, or so we thought.

      http://archive.is/DQzb2

    52. Julia Gibb says:

      I accept the data. I don’t understand it. I find it completely at odds with logic!

    53. callmedave says:

      Jings!

      Lots of SNP yes folk support a subsidy to the press.
      Some post actual links to them

      PS: For older music fans:
      FM there in a response to a press question about why no outside areas serving drinks almost said…almost…

      ‘I never promised you a beer garden?’ 🙂

      PS:
      Figures:

      Scotland……today…..00……….Total……2472…BBC
      N. Ireland….today…..00……….Total…….545…BBC
      Wales………today…..01……….Total……1478…BBC
      England…….today….*20……….Total….no data..*SUN
      ==========================================================
      UK…………today…no data…….Total…..*42652..*SUN

      PPS:
      Big Auntie now telling us all that Boris is definitely going from the 2M rule to 1M darn sarf!

    54. Dan says:

      A wee reminder of where oor scran is heading afore ya’ll tuck intae yer tea. 🙁

      https://theorkneynews.scot/2020/06/20/driving-with-the-brakes-on/

    55. Terry says:

      Great to see Gordon Ross of In D Car joining ISP. Hope he stands on the list for holyrood. His heart is in the right place, he’s committed to independence and has the public profile to get elected. A good guy. I’d vote for him.

    56. Robert Louis says:

      Despite what newspaper owners may like to publicly tell people, the reality is that none of them are in it to make a profit. Oh, of course, if they can make a profit, then that is good, but the super-rich owners of newspapers are in the business for one reason, manipulating public opinion.

      Imagine you have seventy million in the back. Very, very little of that money is actually guaranteed, so if, say an extreme left wing government were to come to power, you might suddenly find yourself and your money, persona non grata. New taxes and charges on the super rich overnight, with massive investment in catching and JAILING ANY who try to avoid it. It has happened in the past elsewhere.

      You see, if the sh*t hits the fan, your seventy mill, can be wiped out in a matter of seconds. Normal savings up to around 80k are guaranteed by the government, but the rest isn’t. So, to some super rich people, ensuring they cannot one day find themselves back slumming it in Ryanair etc.. they need to ensure no radical governments are EVER elected. Oh, of course they wouldn’t be ‘poor’ in the normal sense of the word, but their horror at going from seventy to maybe 1 million, would be too much for them to imagine.

      Have you never wondered why the media react with such horror to tax rises of any kind??? The super rich see it as the thin end of the wedge, they simply don’t want regular people on average incomes starting to like better public services, whilst they themselves get taxed to the hilt to fund them.

      And so, we come to Scotland. The reason the press are so hostile to independence, is simply that their rich owners worry on the impact such a change might have for their wealth and investments. The status quo suits them just fine, and, after all, most ‘scottishy’ newspaper owners don’t even live here – probably never even been here.

      So, they and their rich owners have every interest in keeping things just as they are. The BBC is different, it is simply biased propaganda, dancing to Number 10’s tune. It is, after all the chancellor (and NOT the license fee) which funds the BBC. As the old saying goes, he who pays the piper, calls the tune.

      As to why the SNP decided to give taxpayers hard earned money towards some extremely wealthy individuals who own newspapers in Scotland which are completely hostile to the SNP, Scotland and independence, is beyond any reasoning. Just like their absurd position on section 30.

      Maybe Pete Wishart told them it was a good idea, and that the newspapers hostility to independence was simply untenable in the long term…

      Yet another reason for not voting for the SNP. I mean they aren’t going to go for independence, are they, so why vote for them?

    57. Robert Louis says:

      Breeks at 108pm,

      Yes, but I do recall, Mr Salmond expressing the regret that he hadn’t anticipated the outrageous extent of blatant bias that was exhibited by the BBC. I remember in the last couple of weeks they went into propaganda overload at the BBC, much like the state media of North Korea. Many of those responsible, still work there and pump out anti Scotland propaganda night after night.

    58. Robert Louis says:

      Neil Mackenzie at 1249pm,

      Indeed. A very pertinent question that popped into my brain also.

    59. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Let’s not forget the infamous ‘he didn’t answer’ episode featuring Nick Robinson – AS had a dig at BBC ‘impartiality/objectivity’ and received a hearty round of applause from the international media – wouldn’t it be reasonable to assume that many foreign media people know more about the BBC than we do?

    60. Dan Watt says:

      Stu take a wee break from attacking SNP voters and yes people and look at the other side of the coin.

      The people that stand to gain the most from unionist media continuing to exist are the tories and their voters – they were most against this money being spent on their propaganda arm. If anything, it is them that would be cutting their noses off to spite their face.

      Of course, Labour and Liberal voters aren’t far behind their wee blue pals. If anything, this question goes to show that, regardless of who you vote for, “Scotland’s” print media isn’t valued by anyone right now.

    61. Dogbiscuit says:

      Hey people. You really need to watch today’s UK Column News to learn who makes Sturgeon tick.

    62. jfngw says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Just as likely the international reporters were as sick of the BBC arrogance that they were trying to dominate what was supposed to be a press conference for international outlets.

      BBC reporters have the same attitude to other countries reporters as Westminster has to other countries. They just ooze arrogance and self importance. If you want to see this dripping arrogance have a look on Thursday night to their Coronavirus Newscast, it’s an ego stroking love in.

    63. Pete Barton says:

      @ Dan- thank you for the Orkney article, have shared it around.

      Knowledge is power, we need to know what is happening and not turn a blind eye.

      Gove, Johnson and co. are proven liars.

      People of Scotland, are you happy with what is being done without your consent?

      Are you??

    64. CameronB Brodie says:

      Andy Ellis
      I think this does possibly point to where fair-mindedness resides in relation to Scotland’s political spectrum. 😉

      What does it Mean to be a Fair-Minded Person?
      Justice as Fairness Gained Through Wisdom, Truth and Knowledge

      https://www.ethicssage.com/2016/12/what-does-it-mean-to-be-a-fair-minded-person.html

    65. Dogbiscuit says:

      Geordie when is the next Yes March?

    66. Famous15 says:

      Let us pretend we want a YES march this weekend just to givethe movement a bad name .

      Aye,right.

    67. CameronB Brodie says:

      Some may have felt I have been unduly hostile to the opinion of others, and so unhelpful to the cause. I’ve actually been trying to put specialist knowledge into practice, in the aim of defending Scotland’s democracy. I’m very rusty though, and hadn’t actually developed much sophistication in my technique, when in practice. So I’m sorry for stepping on any toes that didn’t need stepping on.

      Between Facts and Norms
      Contributions to a Discourse Theory
      of Law and Democracy

      http://blogs.unpad.ac.id/teddykw/files/2012/07/J%25C3%25BCrgen-Habermas-Between-Facts-and-Norms.pdf

    68. Dogbiscuit says:

      Famous 15 sarcasm not your thing?

    69. Dogbiscuit says:

      A bit of political agitation on behalf of Yes might keep the idea of Independence alive we have little else after all.

    70. Dan says:

      @Pete Barton

      Nae bother, just happy this stuff is getting out there.
      I’ll tack this on as sort of related with KSTB responding to one of one of Maj’s Trade Commissioners.

      https://twitter.com/keepScotBrand/status/1275040198049574912

    71. Beaker says:

      Might it be that most people get their news online nowadays? The only hard copy I buy is Private Eye. Problem with online is that some of the media demand a subscription, and few people want to pay.

      Still need printed media however. Not everyone has access to the Internet.

    72. Dogbiscuit says:

      What does the corrupt Clinton Foundation have to do with Scottish Government?The health advisor to Nicola Sturgeon is the conduit between Sturgeon and Hillary Clinton.
      Lionel Nation conducts a very good interview with a certain Charles Ortel exposing the Clinton Foundation as a giant slush political slush fund.
      Sturgeon seems desperately keen to take health advisors orders.

    73. Dogbiscuit says:

      Bill Gates is also backing Sturgeon.
      There is a genuine fear in the pit of my stomach at this association. Mandatory Vaccines anyone?
      My spirit warns me from the pit of my stomach.

    74. Pete Barton says:

      @ Dan – shared that too.

      I do despair sometimes that our ‘news’ outlets aren’t doing the job our people need them to do.

      So you love Scotland?

      Open your eyes people, see what is being done.

      Feel the love, spot the lies…

    75. CameronB Brodie says:

      Dogbiscuit
      Propagating fear eh? I see you.

      Journal of Cognitive Semiotics Vol. 4 No. 1
      The Intersubjectivity of Embodiment

      http://pure.au.dk/portal/files/47918899/issue4.1_final.pdf

    76. Mike d says:

      Robbo 1.57pm I see in that poll excluding undecideds, females over 55yrs 39% would vote yes for independence 61% would vote no. Males over 55 57% would vote no, 43% would vote yes. They are obviously not bothered about their pension age increasing up to 70 etc. Younger people voted in favour of indy. So there you have it boris, push their state pension age up to say 75, and the stupid older f***s will still vote no.

    77. Dan says:

      Yep Pete, it’s absolutely outrageous this sort of stuff isn’t being reported or highlighted on the telly news.
      Imagine for a moment a feisty TV reporter “getting richt intae” these individuals who through their Party’s antics are negatively impacting numerous aspects of our society.
      But no, we get a completely filtered news feed with anything deemed “hostile” to those in power moderated out.

      I haven’t had a telly since 2005. I’d hope to use the volume of the room where the TV was for other things, but the ever increasing pile of fifteen year’s worth of endless letters demanding that I pay the license fee have put paid to that! 🙁
      On the plus side, if they keep it up with the letters for another few years I’ll probably inadvertently become a global player in the paper industry with the stock I’ll have. 🙂

    78. Joe says:

      This is of absolutely no surprise.

    79. Bill Hume. says:

      Conflation ( I think that’s the right word). WTF has coronavirus got to do with this?
      If you had asked should we subsidise newspapers because of their falling circulation, I suspect you would have had a different response.

    80. Joe says:

      @Dog biscuit

      Good info. I said something similar a wee while ago. Sturgeon and probably the rest of the senior SNP will go down politically if not legally due to her background globalist contacts. A large portion of the British establishment are in for shit also

    81. Michael says:

      There’s another explanation, independence supporters value journalism and the media generally (rather than specifically the e.g. BBC and unionist papers that you have in mind), and are more in favour of state support. Whereas tories are more in favour of laissez-faire and burning books

    82. CameronB Brodie says:

      Folk should remember that the right-wing populist is determined to re-write history, and to claim rational credibility while doing so.

      A World Beside Itself
      Jakob von Uexküll, Charles S.Peirce, and the Genesis of a Biosemiotic Hypothesis

      https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/158371852.pdf

    83. robbo says:

      Mike d @ 5.47

      That age range baffle us all,but then you think of mentality of mankie jakit man his side kicks,their age range.It then makes a wee bit of sense.

    84. David says:

      Have not heard of any bail out plan but once we get out again paper sales will pick up. Especially local papers hopefully Stv news Alec Salmond and Nicola will give evidence to Holyrood in August probably

    85. robbo says:

      Been thinking for a wee while now.where has that STV Colin McKay gone? Haven’t seen him around in ages.

    86. callmedave says:

      @Robbo

      Well when he, (Colin McKay), appeared via his internet connection on the news at his home my Granddaughter noticed behind him on his bookcase shelf a nice unicorn.

      Probably explains it! 🙁

    87. Marshall Adair says:

      Dan … 2005, me too. I took the tv to the dump, along with the video-recorder and about two hundred three-hour video tapes built up over the previous twenty years. I hesitated but then chucked them all in the skip (no separate skips then). It was one of the best things I’ve ever done! So liberating! And yes, then the accusing, threatening letters started, often quite poorly written, at least one a month, sometimes two.

      It wouldn’t surprise me now, of course, but back then it was an eye-opener to see cuddly, lovable Auntie Beeb, everyone’s favourite, sending out such nasty material. Sadly, they have toned down their language in recent times, to the extent that the letters have gone from being hilarious to merely dull.

    88. Bet that was a shock when you first seen/saw the poll result,

      but i think you are correct in that loyalty to SNP/Nicola and by association Scot Gov has influenced SNP voters,

      also hatred of SNP/Nicola and by association Scot Gov has influenced the Tory voters.

      There is a lesson to be learned here , not sure what it is but deffo a lesson.

    89. Capella says:

      Isn’t state subsidy of newspapers standard practice in Europe? Along with some rules about diversity of opinion.

      I’d rather not subsidise them because I hate the unionist rags and subscribe myself to The National. But I can see how people answering a poll question might take the moral high ground.

    90. Effijy says:

      On holiday in Florida some years back an American guy down there
      On vacation told me about his small town high street where they had
      All the independent stores, butcher, baker and candle stick maker.

      Walmart, who own Asda, opened a store on the edge of town.
      They opened with unique discounted prices that were very much cheaper
      than the independents could get near and so they began to close down and
      This pretty little high street and community meeting place is now a ghost town.

      I’m sure you are ahead of me here but yes Walmart then upped all the prices to
      A level where you would have to drive 40 miles to the nearest competitor supermarket
      To make a small saving that wouldn’t pay for your petrol never mind your lost time.

      Initially when Trumpland takes control of Borisland the disgusting unhealthy American
      Imported food will be more expensive so sales will be negligible.

      As soon as the trade tariffs are gone, it will sell at break even costs until all of the competition is
      Gone, and they will be gone for good, your choice will be Chlorinated Chicken at a high cost or you
      Are not eating Chicken, or Steroid beef or non GM grown crops.

      I can see Boris and Gove on TV making yum, yum noises as they pretend to be eating US produce.

      Hope they buy plenty of shares in the American companies who will rape this new market and keep
      The profits in one of Reece Mogg’s tax free Cayman Island accounts.

    91. robbo says:

      robbo says:
      22 June, 2020 at 6:59 pm
      Great story.Brings a tear to a glass eye as they say.

      https://twitter.com/MisterSalesman/status/1273995283081420801

    92. Dr Jim says:

      Can you not hear the whistling Nah only Fido can hear it

      A couple of hundred countries in the world and most of them have newspapers of one kind or another, perhaps respondants used their brains and decided that left wing facism is just as bad as right wing facism so better to keep newspapers and try to improve the content rather than replace them with TV screens in the town squares delivering messaging from the day’s ideological populist internet complainers

    93. McDuff says:

      Why on earth would you subsidise these trash whose sole purpace in life is to publicise anti independence venom and lies.
      Unless of course you actually didn’t want infependence oil which case they would suit your purpose.

    94. Capella says:

      Besides, if it’s advertising spend during the pandemic then it could send a positive message about the Scottish Government which will be a welcome change.
      Look on the bright side 🙂

    95. mike cassidy says:

      Dan

      You are joking about keeping 15 years of licence letters.

      Aren’t you?

      Asks a man who never keeps more than the most recent monthly bank statement.

      Meanwhile, in the real world

      Some serious analysis of Trump’s Tulsa crowd fiasco.

      https://twitter.com/cameronesposito/status/1274499517270732800

    96. bipod says:

      @cameron

      Its no different to the massive amount of fear that was and still is being generated by nicola sturgeon. Considering that nicola is now micromanaging every aspect of our lives I don’t think it is outrageous to suggest that they might attempt to bring in some form of mandatory vaccination.

    97. robbo says:

      Aye Mike I watched it .I guessed around 10,000 at time.Seems I was wrong- how bad of me..

      Joe will tell you it was all those very bad people outside that stopped them coming lol. I did say Houdini couldnae get him (trump)oot of it .

    98. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’ve no time for authoritarians of either political wing.

      RHETORIC, ARGUMENTATION AND DIALOGIC ANALYSIS OF DISCOURSE
      http://www.rasaneh.org/Images/News/AtachFile/27-3-1391/FILE634754469767402343.pdf

    99. Beaker says:

      I’d be buggered without my TV, or at least my DVDs.

      Good England team football tonight on STV – Euro 96 vs Germany. At least tune into the happy ending 🙂

    100. CameronB Brodie says:

      bipod
      Care to remind us what your knowledge background is, so we can assess your judgement, and decide whether your opinion is reasonable or not?

      Disinformation and propaganda – impact on the functioning of the rule of law in the EU and its Member States
      https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2019/608864/IPOL_STU(2019)608864_EN.pdf

    101. Pete Barton says:

      @ Bipod.
      Sorry, I cannot see how your comments contribute anything pal.

      I’ve lived with that fear like many have for the past 3 months.

      I consider the scientific advice to be worthwhile.

      I’m alive.

      I won’t abuse your point of view, everybody has one; no matter if I think you’re way wrong, you still have a valid opinion.

      Unless, of course you have a darker motive, in which case go bile yer Heid.

    102. MaggieC says:

      Can I just say that I’ve never bought any unionist papers for many years and now I only occasionally buy the National depending on who the columnists are on particular days eg Wee Ginger Dug etc who actually support Independence .

      Why would any Independence supporter buy any of these papers especially after this from Stuart .

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/at-midnight-all-the-agents/

    103. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s were a bit of post-structuralism comes in handy. 🙂

      Identity and Discourse in Critical Geopolitics: A Framework for Analysis

      Abstract
      The paper discusses the methodology of critical geopolitics in the part related to critical discourse analysis and the use of this methodology to explore the relationship of identity and discourse in critical geopolitics.

      Through the presentation of the basic postulates of critical discourse analysis as the main method of analysis in critical geopolitics, the relationship of discourse and identity was studied through a critical discourse analysis, which focuses on the political and social context in which identities arise and develop. The critical discourse analysis has no unified approach or method. It is a broad set of methods, adjusted to each critical approach.

      Identity as a dynamic phenomenon is inseparable from the social and historical context. It is the result of a continuous interaction between a community and the space occupied by that community. The scientific knowledge about the depth and nature of the relationship and the relationship between the territorial identity and discourse in contemporary critical geopolitical considerations are also discussed in this paper.

      Key words:
      critical geopolitics, critical discourse analysis, identity, geopolitical discourses, poststructuralism.

      https://bib.irb.hr/datoteka/794654.Identity_and_Discourse_in_Critical_Geopolitics_-_paper_Kurecic_final.pdf

    104. mike cassidy says:

      They may take our lives

      But they will never take our lawnmowers

      https://twitter.com/_youhadonejob1/status/1274102856694497284/photo/1

    105. bipod says:

      More gate keeping cameron? Do you deny the empirical data that the median age of death for covid is 85 years and that working people are as likely to die from covid as they are the flu.

      Nicola continues to hype this virus up and scare the public senseless, she never provides a balanced perspective that for the majority of people they have nothing to worry about from this. This will go down as the mildest “pandemic” in history.

    106. Dogbiscuit says:

      Hey folks go on google punch in three random numbers then ‘new cases and watch the results. Hurry before it’s taken down

    107. Dan says:

      @Marshall Adair at 6:51 pm

      Indeed, it was liberating as you say. Freeing oneself from the matrix took a little bit of adjustment but since then I’ve been marginally more productive and hugely better informed!
      No more losing hours of my weekend watching the procession that Formula 1 had become, no more groundhog day of Seb Loeb winning WRC rallies, and Beckham scoring free kicks. Don’t get me wrong, I like a well struck free kick but after about 300 identical kicks the tolerance builds up and the euphoria diminishes to the point it doesn’t dull out the numb arse from sitting on the couch for 90mins.
      Marble racing is way better anyway!

      Oh, keep on posting by the way.

      @mike cassidy at 7.28pm

      What can I say, I’m an aspiring Mr Trebus from The Life of Grime!
      I like to think of the stacks of alternating tri-colour demand letters as my very own poundshop Jackson Pollack installation.
      Plus it’s mounting evidence in a long term harassment case I’m building. 😉

    108. Dogbiscuit says:

      You folks should check out Carl Vernon on YouTube for covid chats.

    109. Dogbiscuit says:

      Pete Barton the British and Scottish Governments are pulling your wire. It scrubbers me because the gullible are dragging the rest of us to Hell.

    110. Dogbiscuit says:

      Scunners .

    111. robbo says:

      Pete Barton says:
      22 June, 2020 at 7:48 pm
      @ Bipod.

      This will be the new spin when a vaccine comes- oh no!

      The anti vaxers will be out in force screaming “their trying to take our liberty” blah,blah,blah

      Nutjobs. Haven’t complained over the years when their mammy took them to the doctors for various jabs that have saved their lives to this day.

      Maybe a bit o time in the cluncky will ease their minds when there done for manslaughter/murder, just like some folk with the Aids virus did.

    112. CameronB Brodie says:

      bipod
      I deny nothing, where as you appear to deny the practical and ethical logic of the precautionary principle. You also appear to have absolutely no appreciation of public health practice. We have managed to avoid higher death-tolls by adhering to lock-down.

      You’ve denied there was any threat, right from the start. So I’m sorry, but my training leads me to believe you’re a bit of a zoomer.

      Social Semiotics Volume 25, 2015 – Issue 1
      Peddling a semiotics of fear: a critical examination of scare tactics and commercial strategies in public health promotion

      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10350330.2014.988920

    113. Dogbiscuit says:

      Robbo you insult people because you have no argument. A n in tested vaccine rushed into a captive market could have catastrophic consequences. After Thalidomide we should trust the pharmaceutical industry? You really are a numbskull hammerhead.

    114. Beaker says:

      @mike cassidy says:
      22 June, 2020 at 8:06 pm
      “They may take our lives
      But they will never take our lawnmowers”

      I’m going to need one for my hair…

    115. Dogbiscuit says:

      Untested vaccine is what you’re getting from Mr Gates. Plenty of ‘emergency’ profits for him.

    116. Dogbiscuit says:

      The ‘mildest pandemic in history’ is the poorest excuse for a fascist corporate take over.

    117. Dogbiscuit says:

      Hello Lurkers. Comrades we have work to do. Stolen freedom is never handed back.

    118. Dogbiscuit says:

      Our politicians voted our rights and freedoms out of existence even that nice Joanna Cherrybum.

    119. Dogbiscuit says:

      Are they worth voting for again? Robbo is excused from answering by virtue of him being an imbecile.

    120. Pete Barton says:

      @ dogbiscuit

      Well, you run the show then

      If you’ve so much negative criticism of not just politicians but medics too, go run the show yourself.

      We’re sure you’ll hit the ground with your feet moving.

      Aye right.

      See you on the telly, this could be your big moment.

    121. Joe says:

      Interesting documentary on Bill Gates and some history

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSvhPnUgyz8

    122. Dogbiscuit says:

      When the full effects of hard Brexit begin to be felt by the public Governments are going to want to know where everyone is and who they are with .That way un wanted demonstrations and political meetings can be nipped in the bud. Governments spying on their political enemies ,us.

    123. Pete Barton says:

      @Robbo

      Fair comment.

      As a kid I spent 2 weeks in perfect isolation with Scarlet fever, it was a dreadful time.

      But I survived.

      Same here with covid; I’m still alive.

      There are people all over the world trying and in some cases managing to control and even eradicate some horrible things.

      Providing the safeguards are followed correctly many souls will be able to live a full and proper life.

      Some out there will deny that to their fellow human beings..

    124. Dogbiscuit says:

      Pete Barton if I ran the show you wouldn’t be under house arrest. No one would be but Nicola Sturgeon and her crew would be under arrest for various crimes against humanity. I don’t think those are strong enough words really.
      Oh SNP programmed idiots your leader is scamming us.
      Emotional blackmail as an argument is propaganda.

    125. Dogbiscuit says:

      ‘A full and proper life’ in the ‘New Normal’? Are you high Peepee?

    126. CameronB Brodie says:

      We appear to be up to our elbows in crocogators again.

      SEL for SDGs: Why Social and Emotional Learning is necessary to achieve the Sustainable Development Goals
      https://mgiep.unesco.org/article/sel-for-sdgs-why-social-and-emotional-learning-is-necessary-to-achieve-the-sustainable-development-goals

    127. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I suggest that Dogbiscuit should retire to a dark corner and self-procreate.

      He/She has become boring over the past month or so that I now just scroll past.

      What’s the point to her/his negativity?

      OK, I obviously read at least one of the comments but it was crap. So, I ignored the rest.

    128. bipod says:

      We have managed to avoid higher death-tolls by adhering to lock-down.

      Thats the big claim. As I pointed out in another thread over the past month and a bit we have had increased public activity. A heat wave in May, massive protests, but no corresponding increase of the virus.

      What does the precautionary principle say about the real and obvious costs of lockdown vs the imaginary and unproven benefits of it?

      Interestingly the original advice from SAGE was that all vulnerable people (the elderly etc…) should be shielded and the rest of the population should carry working albeit with additional hygiene practices and more caution, but then there was a massive media frenzy and public backlash.

    129. Pete Barton says:

      @Dogbiscuit

      I actually quite enjoyed ‘house arrest’ for a bit..

      Couldn’t breathe properly when I had to go shopping.

      Go ask the approximately 400 thousand poor souls worldwide if they’d rather their freedom was curtailed for a while, or a cold early grave.

      Sacrifices have to be made sometimes.

      I’d rather the containment of a very infectious and insidious virus to the free for all you seem to suggest.

      Have nice evening.

    130. Stoker says:

      For those who haven’t seen it, I’ve no idea if this should be laughed at or cried at. Seriously! It’s that bad even the lunatics have fucked off from the asylum. Jeeeeeez! https://twitter.com/Liberal_Leigh/status/1275108161394008065

    131. Willie says:

      £3 m would be better setting up a new Scottish newspaper – online.jkurnal.

      Or could have been better spent supporting Bella Caledonia ( ugh! ) and or Common Weal and or Grouse Beater and or the Ferret. A little would go a long way with these type of journals.

      Or what even of a Scottish online radio news service. Half volunteer, half grant supported, half punter supported and maybe another half from limited commercial enterprise. Together the four halves could deliver, in conjunction with maybe some of the online journals, a very worthwhile media platform.

      The Craig Murray Monday Round Up. Tuesday Late Call with the Reverend Stu. Country Matters from The Grouse Beater. Thursday Round Up with Nicola, Friday Comedy with Carlaw and Saturday Remember our Yesterday’s with Richard, and Sunday Confessions of Sinner. The options are scintillating. But joking aside, £3m seed money could do a lot and we have a lot of embryonic talent out there.

      But instead the SG squanders £3m on hostile dinosaur owned media who will spit in their faces.

      Why? It’s insanity. Building their own scaffold, brining their own rope.

    132. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Brexit and The Bug are important, aye, but we must pay attention to what the Wokesters are up to.

      The Friends of Wings Twitter account @FOWingsScot is keeping an eye on what’s happening and will be highlighting relevant tweets and links as they appear.

    133. robbo says:

      Pete B & Brian

      This fool has been polluting the site for months along with a few others. They never ever post anything remotely positive to the indy cause. Some of us have some convo’s on the indy way forward and can debate and disagree, but these lot only mildly give us some entertainment at times as we’re quite perplexed as to why they spend their time on an indy site spouting absolute dribble.

    134. bipod says:

      Nicola follows a very predictable pattern. England, Wales and N.I ease there lockdown measures. Nicola slams her fists and calls it reckless and it will lead to a catastrophic second wave. Nothing happens and she does the very same thing 3 weeks later.

      That is not leadership its dithering while this country is on its knees.

    135. CameronB Brodie says:

      bipod
      You really are hard work. Covid-19 is a new disease we have no protection against. So treating it like a flu just wasn’t adequate to the task of preventing a pandemic with a potential for catastrophic consequences. We are lucky it hasn’t, so far, but the sock-puppet of a PM might yet achieve notoriety.

      Much of the social and economic cost of the lock-down, could have been avoided if more prompt action had been taken when the threat was first identified. Unfortunately, the Tories are ideologically opposed to the precautionary principle, which is largely why we are leaving the EU, IMHO. Hostility to ethical reason is also why we will need to remain in lock=down for longer than we would have, if the PM wasn’t wearing clown-shows.

      Ethical and Legal Considerations in Mitigating Pandemic Disease: Workshop Summary.
      3 Strategies for Disease Containment

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK54163/

    136. robbo says:

      bipod says:
      22 June, 2020 at 9:41 pm
      Nicola knows you.

      Have you not got work do in parliament tomorrow Ruth?
      Get aff that phone,feed that wean and get tae bed.

    137. Effijy says:

      I just read an e-mail from Peter Murrell, SNP, to take part in a survey
      That asks how much I’d be willing to pay for self development courses
      Were I’d have a better understanding of branch organisation, political
      Fund raising, public speaking, and preparing to be a council candidate?

    138. Stoker says:

      Dan wrote on 22 June, 2020 at 2:53 pm:

      “A wee reminder of where oor scran is heading afore ya’ll tuck intae yer tea. https://theorkneynews.scot/2020/06/20/driving-with-the-brakes-on/

      Thank you very much for this link, brilliant article. Strangely the very last episode (repeat) I watched of Father Ted, seen all the others too more than once. Great stuff! I’m away to spread this on my bit of Twatter. Thanks again! 😉

    139. Dogbiscuit says:

      Has anyone typed in a three digit number with ‘ latest cases’ You’ll see an algorithm tailors the news to the number you put in .There is something very fishy about that. Has anyone tried it yet? Example 486 latest cases. Watch the result.

    140. Dogbiscuit says:

      Any three digit number you like.

    141. Pete Barton says:

      @ Robbi

      Thanks, man..I couldn’t have put it better.

      If they were paid to do it, then they’re not good enough.

      If they’re not paid, what a waste of a life.

    142. Dogbiscuit says:

      There’s nothing positive that can be said for the cause under the current leadership.

    143. Dogbiscuit says:

      Pete Barton. I have a job lot of crash helmets for sale .A cautious chap like yourself could probably use one.

    144. Pete Barton says:

      @dog biscuit..

      I trust you are familiar with Marvin the paranoid Android?

    145. Dogbiscuit says:

      You’re really not taking note of the information I try to impart to you . Your responses are driven by bile and prejudice. Have you gone to any of the sites I’ve advised?
      You defend a hopeless position.Its obvious to anyone with brains that our Governments have another agenda.
      Matt Hancock has eyes like Reinhardt Heydrich.

    146. Pete Barton says:

      @dog biscuit.PMSL.

      Thank you, my first smile tonight!

    147. Dogbiscuit says:

      No Pete I draw from life experience and a familiarity with oppressive regimes also a certain amount of historical knowledge.

    148. Pete Barton says:

      We have similar backgrounds then, Mr. Biscuit.

      Perhaps you could be a bit more..constructive, and dare I ask, less aggressive in your fashion.

      Thank you kindly.

    149. Gary45% says:

      Dan@ 2.11
      Local authorities also invest in the arms trade.
      Highland Council have a portion of the pension portfolio invested in General Dynamics( a company which makes weapons that are used to kill Palestinian children and also dropped on children in Yemen). It goes against their own ethical investment policy. There is a campaign trying to get Highland Council to divest away from General Dynamics, but so far money means more than humanity.
      Sadly war makes money for the greedy.

    150. Pete Barton says:

      Shift end..

      Nice of you to contribute such positivity tonight, Mr. Biscuit and co.

      We welcome all who do.

    151. Stoker says:

      Can this “Witnesses inquiry” come up with a finding of “Not Proven”? Or other wording meaning exactly that? If so that’s where my money is going.

      Now before some wannabe Petrocelli starts spouting about ‘Not Proven’ being one of three possible court case findings and this isn’t a court case etc etc etc I will inform you that I already know that hence the reason for adding “Or other wording meaning exactly that.”

      I’m also aware it is not a court case, that it’s an inquiry. I also know it’s purpose is to determined if anyone lied or acted inappropriately throughout the Salmond investigations but what I’m not so clear on is the procedures at the conclusion of this “inquiry”.

      EG: If anyone is found to have lied, acted inappropriately or broken any laws are the details etc sent to the Procurator Fiscals Office for consideration of prosecution or is there another route by which they are dealt with? Would Salmond be able to use their findings to raise private prosecutions against them also, separately?

    152. deerhill says:

      Are dogbiscuit and bipod the same person? Or it just that they are on the same shift with brigade 77?

    153. Joe says:

      Its amusing that the people questioning covid official narrative are the ‘brigade 77′ and the ones doing the accusing dont seem to have 1 single issue with the official line. Funny considering that ’77’ are officially on duty to push the official covid line. Its like dads army, except you need a laptop and a list of basic instructions on how to try to make a show of debunking alternative thoughts

    154. Joe says:

      Anyway – the differences emerging in our society now are quite rapidly becoming the divide people who try to think and those who dont.

      Its not about left or right, or even indy v non indy. Its about some who can see through the bullshit and those who cant

    155. Famous15 says:

      Joe dogwhistle does not do irony as well as you. As you were,soldier!

    156. Beaker says:

      @Dogbiscuit says:
      22 June, 2020 at 10:24 pm
      “Any three digit number you like.”

      Did you type in 666?

    157. Fireproofjim says:

      Whatever dogbiscuit is, I usually scroll by him, bit noticed a crazed diatribe about vaccines being some sort of conspiracy by Bill Gates.
      The utter ignorance displayed in his post is breathtaking.
      Before vaccination millions died every year from diseases that are now all but forgotten thanks to vaccines.
      Smallpox is extinct. Polio would be but for ignorant religious zealots in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
      Typhoid, scarlet fever, diphtheria, cholera, measles, mumps, yellow fever, TB and a host of other disease are now almost unknown or treatable thanks to vaccination.
      I dare say dogbiscuit would rather they were still raging. And Bill Gates has nothing to do with any of them.

    158. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s a useful perspective that covers a lot of bases.

      Doing the right thing: Ethical dilemmas in public policy making

      Abstract
      Ethical dilemmas in public policy making arise because resources are inadequate to meet all demands, and because people are committed to different values and ideas.

      How ought the state allocate resources and determine ‘trade off’ between conflicting priorities? By empirical analysis of ‘the evidence’ and ‘what works’? By calculating ‘the greatest good for the greatest number’? Or some kind of ‘co-production’ (collaborative governance) that factors in critical reflection and public deliberation on purpose, values and emotions?

      If the latter, how might we proceed in public policy making when people disagree on the priority of basic moral principles and the requirements of justice? This paper draws on Rawls, Sen, Nussbaum and Schattschneider to frame a set of questions to guide deliberation on ‘doing the right thing’ in public policy making, and notes competancies required for both elected and appointed officials in a co-production approach to policy making.

      Key words
      Public policy; ethical issues; evidence-based policy; utilitarianism; cost-benefit analysis; co-production

      https://digitalcommons.lsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1640&context=gradschool_theses

    159. Joe says:

      Its interesting watching how the divisions between people are emblematic of the era. Not the fake media pushed divisions. The real natural ones. At one point it was indy. A lot of the time its collectivism v individualism. Right now the division thats materialising is between those who try to think for themselves and those who wont or cant. This is the age where mass decentralised communication tips the scale

    160. cynicalHighlander says:

      Joe

      You have missed one .

    161. Joe says:

      Politicians and business leaders are still working by the 20th century rule book, much of the population still are too. As unveiling of the obvious crimes and dishonesty of powerful figures catch them unprepared for such scrutiny so much of the public are caught unprepared to handle the ugly truths that were not so long ago mostly hidden from view. This new reality tests the character more than intelligence

    162. Dan says:

      Well that was a trip round some random retro pre Indyref stuff. Still makes for interesting reading to see the stance and views back then.

      The Legislative Competence To Hold a Referendum on Separation.

      https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmscotaf/542/54205.htm

      How Would Separation affect jobs in the Scottish defence industry (39 Page PDF)

      https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmscotaf/957/957.pdf

    163. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      Please stop posing as something your narrative does not support as being your true position.

      Why is there truth? Foucault in the age of post?truth politics
      https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1467-8675.12396

    164. Joe says:

      It should be of no surprise that the very characters who would benefit from the 20th century level of communication should attempt to throw money on to preserve it. The attempts to ban free thinkers on social media is just more arranging of the furniture on the Titanic. Its slow going but its happening and the establishment fucking hate it. So do the ones who arent wired to think. As we see here.

    165. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      You’d need to go to bed before getting up, if you want to get a step ahead of me.

      Post-Truth, Postmodernism and Alternative Facts
      https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/2336825X1802600302

    166. CameronB Brodie says:

      ….get up before going to bed, even. ;(

    167. Robert graham says:

      Christ I always thought ” Gunfight at the OK coral ” was a Movie , then I looked in on the comments on the real Bleedn Wild West , are some of you folks on something ? , if you are you really should give it up , if you aren’t fk me seek some help .

      As nuts Mr Biscuits is he has Mr Microsofts number exactly, I suggest anyone who Questions Mr Biscuits comments just have a look at what Mr Microsoft and his dear wife are involved in , starting with who’s foundation bankrolls the World Health organisation , its like a giant spiders web this apparent philanthropic foundation , even encapsulating various Fact checking organisations just to make sure the mugs receive the correct information , THEIRS ! Mr Biscuits might be nuts but every so often he does make sense , Mr Biscuits that’s not a endorsement just in case you think I am defending you .but on Mr Microsoft you are right .this guy and his family are Evil .

    168. Joe says:

      The situation in UK politics sums it up nicely. Anyone who looks at it with a genuine effort to contain their bias realises 1 obvious thing – they are all totally unworthy of the job they are in, and as information trickles out and more importantly highlighted by people like WOS, the more ludicrous the situation proves to be. How long will people accept this situation?

    169. Dan says:

      One last one (29 page pdf)

      The Referendum on Separation for Scotland: The proposed section 30 Order—Can a player also be the referee?

      https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmscotaf/863/863.pdf

    170. Big Jock says:

      The Scots are a curious nation.

      Sigmund Freud would have never succeeded in psychoanalysis, had he been a Scot. He would have been too fucked up!

    171. CameronB Brodie says:

      Yes, philanthropists are often dodgy as hell, and there is a web of connection between supporters of eugenics and many of the institutional think-tanks, but mass vaccination is generally a positive, pro-social action. A lot has been learnt from previous medical mistakes.

      Here’s a peek at the ethics of vaccine development.

      Should Participation in Vaccine Clinical Trials be Mandated?
      Few would argue with Bill Gates when he describes vaccination as “the most effective and cost effective health tool ever invented” [1]. To date vaccination has saved many lives and has the potential to save millions more, especially if vaccines are developed against the “big three”: malaria, HIV, and TB [2-5]. Vaccine development, however, comes at a price that is not only financial but societal.

      The lack of animal models that can reliably predict vaccine efficacy means that development still unavoidably relies on testing of novel vaccines in healthy individuals. Given the often unquantifiable risks to the recipients of vaccines in early stages of development, clinical trials have traditionally relied on informed and consenting volunteers who appreciate the potential risks but still choose to participate for altruistic reasons [6, 7].

      But relying on altruism alone to facilitate clinical trials is potentially unsustainable and ethically contentious. In recent decades there has been a distressing decline in the numbers of healthy volunteers who participate in clinical trials [7], a decline that has the potential to become a key rate-limiting factor in vaccine development. Reasons for this decline are unclear but are likely to be multifaceted.

      One familiar problem is the payment of volunteers [8]. To date, the relatively meagre compensation that participants often receive could be seen to belittle and undervalue the contribution of these individuals to global health. The modest financial remuneration commonly provided often means that students and the unemployed make up the bulk of volunteers [6, 8, 9]. As a result, the risks of developing a health intervention that would benefit the whole population are carried disproportionately by some of society’s most poor and vulnerable.

      This is a situation few would judge to be fair or ethical. However it is hard to increase volunteer payment without creating financial incentives. “Danger money” is frowned upon as an inducement that inevitably clouds an individual’s appreciation of risk, limiting the likelihood that consent is informed [6, 7]. As a result, consensus has generally dictated that payment for volunteers’ trial involvement be modest and limited to compensation for travel, time, and inconvenience only….

      https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/should-participation-vaccine-clinical-trials-be-mandated/2012-01

    172. twathater says:

      Talking of jailers they come in many forms , an interesting read and a blog to keep up with

      https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2020/06/22/land-reform-crucial-to-scotland/

    173. Chic McGregor says:

      Why interrupt an enemy while they are making mistakes? Keep them afloat, they are doing far more for indy than they are for the union even if they do not themselves realise that.

    174. mr thms says:

      Did the Scottish Government pay for newspaper advertising to provide public health announcements on coronavirus?

      If they have, there should have been a third option in the poll.

      “This is a good use of public money – it’s important to find how you, your family and the public can stay safe.”

    175. susan says:

      I see the woke entryists are trying to slide themselves into constituency seats. As the English govt rein in the genderists, in Scotland they cling on tight.

    176. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      I like Edward Andrews. As one of the people who took part in this poll, his clarification is very helpful.

      Stu., had Panelbase telephoned me, I would probably have answered in a similar way to Edward.

      Whilst I despise the Daily Mail, the Sun and all of those other disgusting purveyors of calumny, our local newspaper is one of the best I have ever read. It is called the Arran Banner.

      The Arran Banner is remarkable in that it holds several records, including the fact of having the highest readership percentage with 97% of islanders reading the newspaper. It also has a very healthy ex-pat and offshore readership. Even so, margins are tight and any of that £3,000,000 in government advertising that can make its way to the Arran Banner would help.

      I suspect Edward may have answered the enigma in your article.

      Though Stuart, you really do have a fine, forensics way of proper journalism yourself. This is a great piece of reporting. Thankyou.

      My only question is this: will Wings Over Scotland be receiving a fair share of that £3,000,000 from the Scottish Government?

      Answers on a postcard….

    177. Stuart MacKay says:

      twathater @1:34am

      Thanks for the link. Very interesting, but too short.

      Good to see that there are people pushing alternatives to the large estate / community buyout duopoly that consume all the air in the land reform debate.

      Also good to see someone else point the finger at the government as being an active roadblock on land reform and, by inference, wildlife crime too.

      So many problems could be well on the road to solution if only there was not so much pandering and foot-dragging.

    178. stookie1967 says:

      Stockbridge syndrome surely….

    179. Breeks says:

      There are 190 days left of the Brexit Transition period. Maybe less, if the talks between the EU and the Westminster government collapse in acrimony.

      The option of an emergency constitutional backstop to prevent Scotland’s unlawful Brexit could in my opinion throw Brexit into uncertainty, and prevent the guillotine which finalises Brexit and Scotland’s subjugation.

      When forced to confront the mere possibility that Scotland’s Brexit is unlawful, given the EU Bureaucracy is a stickler for the law, I believe Brexit will be unable to proceed until it’s lawful legitimacy over it’s treatment of Scotland has been proved one way or the other.

      The ONLY way the UK and EU could proceed with Brexit, would see the Scottish component of Brexit held in a type of stasis, something similar to Northern Ireland, pending the conclusion of Constitutional arguments of Scottish Sovereignty and unlawful subjugation… That’s at minimum. Personally, I hope such an action would provoke the constitutional collapse of the UK Union, but we should take one step at a time…

      We NEED a Constitutional Backstop, and we need one urgently, yet nobody is even discussing the possibility.

      I have this horrible feeling, we’ve been playing this match so long beyond when the whistle should have blown, and it’s down to injury time, but victory is still possible. We’ve been playing a team with an extra man, because the referee is on their team. Worse yet however, I fear there’s an unknown element in our team which has taken a bung and wants to throw the whole match. Up front, we scream for the ball,… but it never comes.

      Nicola Sturgeon’s despicable capitulation on 31st January was a slap in the face for every one of us. I know I was utterly stunned by it. Whatever faith I had in Nicola Sturgeon, and that was never much, but it died that day.

      Scotland, if we don’t want to find ourselves in that same situation on 31st December 2020, we must act now to prevent it. Whether the SNP will back it or do nothing, we must see it done regardless. Scotland needs us. We must strive to construct a Constitutional Backstop and affect some kind of interdict on being steamrollered out of Europe against our will with our devolved leadership’s supine complicity. We have 190 days, though properly, we have many fewer days to act.

      I would ask everybody to write to Joanna Cherry, and lobby her to take out a private test case disputing Scotland’s subjugation and putting the brakes on Brexit. If Joanna won’t do it, then we find someone else. Maybe the Martin Keatings team…

    180. Breeks says:

      I forgot to add… the Orkney Times article posted above ought to be an eye opener about the de-regulation heading our way.

      A Constitutional Backstop which throws doubt on the legality of Scotland’s subjugation might yet be a defensive force field we can throw up around Scotland’s industry and production facilities which are faced with imminent deregulation.

    181. Capella says:

      @ stookie1967 – Ha ha – clever and very apt 🙂

      @ twahater – me too – I thought that was a very interesting read. The lack of action by the Scottish Government on land reform and wildlife protection, as Stuart MacKay points out, is scandalous. We waited a long time for the Werrity Report which AFAIK mainly suggests waiting a few more years – for what?

      Roseanna Cunningham can’t be too busy with Covid 19 to take action. However, Fergus Ewing is most likely the barrier to progress on this issue. Now Holyrood is going on recess. There is a huge backlog of pressing issues that desperately need attention.

      I can understand that many things are on hold so that independence isn’t compromised by unnecessary rabid headlines in the yellow press. Also, who knew that BREXIT was going to take four long years in the making. It was supposed to be all over in 2018. So more delay, and delay. Obviously, many people are frustrated by the long series of delays. Now covid has added further delay.

      Next session will be frantic on every front. There’s a campaign slogan – Frantic on Every Front.

      https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2020/06/22/land-reform-crucial-to-scotland/

    182. Bob Mack says:

      I watched a great documentary last night about the Black Panther movement and how the FBI considered them to be a public danger.

      J Edgar Hoover gave his agents the remit of destroying them by using the tactics of dusruption, derailing and redirection to cause friction in all the Panthers meetings and communication media. It worked.

      A bit like they do on here actually. You know who I mean.

    183. Republicofscotland says:

      Everyone should read Chris McEleny’s excellent article on why Plan B must be implemented at next year’s Holyrood elections.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/18534616.support-yes-middle-classes-switch-no-side/

    184. Sensibledave says:

      Breeks

      Whilst I have no view on whether Scotland becomes an Independent country or not, I certainly do have a view on the UK’s status on the EU. I didnt vote to Leave the EU but a majority of voters did ..so Leave we must. In fact, we already have.

      You wrote “When forced to confront the mere possibility that Scotland’s Brexit is unlawful, given the EU Bureaucracy is a stickler for the law, I believe Brexit will be unable to proceed until it’s lawful legitimacy over it’s treatment of Scotland has been proved one way or the other.”

      The Parliament of the member State, Westminster, passed the laws to carry out the result of the free and fair referendum of the citzens of the UK. The other member states will never stand together to attempt to impose imprisonment on the UK. It is as simple as that.

      I understand that you wish it was otherwise and that you feel that Scotland is being taken out of the UK unwillingly but there is absolutely no way that the EU could or would try to use Scotland as some means to prevent the UK from leaving. Whilst you, understandably, have concerns about the due course of democracy with respect to Scotland, the EU will/must also know that to attempt to frustrate the UK majority is a complete non starter. I am happy to try and “game” the process through with you but its starts with the fact that the UK has left the EU already, that the UK wont pay any additional monies to the UK (beyond that we have already agreed after 31st December 2020) and that the majority of UK voters chose to Leave.

    185. Sensibledave says:

      Breeks

      … wont pay additional monies to the EU!

    186. Vinny says:

      Bob Mack 9.13am

      The grammar in your last post is absolutely terrible.

      A five year old kid would have done better.

      Must try harder!!!

    187. Famous15 says:

      Vinny is that your doin called disruption so!?

    188. Ottomanboi says:

      Question:
      The SNP is classed as a constitutionalist party, ie a party electing to operate within a given, established legal framework, with reference to the history of independence movements elsewhere is adherence to constitutionalism a help or a hinderance in pursuit of its aims?

    189. Republicofscotland says:

      Oh look Ireland is set to follow Scotland, which followed Finland on Baby Boxes. Of course as we all know, well our unionist MSPs and the unionist media told us so it must be true, that none of those Baby Boxes are as good as England’s Baby Boxes.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/18533248.ireland-set-follow-scotlands-lead-baby-boxes-new-parents/

    190. Vinny says:

      An english MP called Brandon Lewis is the Secretary of State for N Ireland.

      He is the MP for Great Yarmouth, which is not in N Ireland, it is in England.

      He is on telly this morning telling viewers if they want a fantastic holiday then come to Great Yarmouth.

      He is meant to be SoS for N Ireland, he is meant to be looking after the interests of the people of N Ireland, including the hotel and holiday sectors.

      But here he is blatantly ignoring the people of N Ireland and telling people to Holiday in Great Yarmouth, because that is where he is from.

      This is just another example of the english empire being alive and kicking within the UK.

      Another example is Scotland’s Under Secretary of State, he is Iain Stewart who is the MP for Milton Keynes,,,,in england.

      He will be another colonialist who when it comes to the local economy, will put the interests of Milton Keynes ahead of any town in Scotland.

    191. On land reform,

      i wonder how much lobbying is going on behind the scenes by the big landowners and shooting estates,

      how transparent is Scottish Gov in finding out who ministers have been lobbied/influenced by,

      lot of these big estates are owned by very rich foriegn companies and individuals who are very good at getting what they want `By any means necessary`.

    192. Vinny says:

      Famous15

      You contribute nothing to the debate.

      You are an A Hole

      You have never contributed anything to the debate.

      You remind me of the Micheal Cane send up of the nosey old bastard who stood peeking out her living room window all day, waiting to see if she could spot anything out of the ordinary was happening.

      You are a nosey neighbour!!!

      Then you get the knitting needles out and you and all the other nosey neighbours have a right good gossip about all those terrible people that are out there.

      Get back to your knitting hen and leave all this thinking stuff to the grown ups

    193. Vinny says:

      I remember when Sturgeon became leader of the SNP.

      It was going to be the big push for Independence and Land Reform.

      That was the two most important issues I wanted at the forefront of her policies.

      And to date, these two issues have been kicked into the long grass, somewhere up in the Highlands, probably owned by some englishman.

    194. Effijy says:

      Baby Boxes- Do the Irish not know the Westminster and UK media reveal
      That if you put a blow lamp on these boxes they can catch fire?

      There is 70 years of irrefutable evidence from Finland to show that these
      Boxes can save lives and give new arrivals a better start in life and yet
      The Westminster Parties are Happy to see infant mortality increase here
      If it gives them a cheap shot at political point scoring.

      Despicable Unionists at their best!

    195. stookie1967 says:

      Vinny 9:33am

      Not only is Gt Yarmouth in England but you couldn’t get a point on the Yookania mainland further east from the north of Ireland. Reminds me of when i worked in Belfast and a mgr from london was seconded to our office for a stint. He called me asking if he needed his passport and if they took Sterling!

    196. Republicofscotland says:

      “The Parliament of the member State, Westminster, passed the laws to carry out the result of the free and fair referendum”

      Sensible Dave.

      Free and fair you say. Using antiquated Henry VIII laws, to get your way,proroguing parliament, lying about money that would be better off used in our NHS, lying about immigrants that head to the UK and that’s just the stuff I recall off the top of my head.

      There’s nothing free and fair about this or any Tory government, even as I type this the Tory Social Care minister Helen Whately has decided that the Tories have no plans to backdate grants to student nurses, who cut short their training to help out with the Covid-19 crisis.

      IDOX the body used during voting processes is managed by an ex-Tory Peter Lilley I think.

    197. Effijy says:

      Just.a reminder that when Labour’s Ian Murray fell out with Corbyn
      It was an English Geordie MP Labour made the Shadow Scottish Secretary.

      So Labour have Englishmen as North Accounting Unit Leader and Shadow Secretary roles
      But that will be because we are too wee and stupid to do anything for ourselves.

      God bless the photo copy Tory Party in the North North.

    198. Capella says:

      @ Scot Finlayson – answer – a great deal. The Werrity Report was delayed for a year because of the pressure from the land lobby.

      Their greatest resource used to be the House of Lords. They could always insert the word “not” here and there in bills which threatened their power.
      The other resource is the civil service. Place persons everywhere, Scottish Natural Heritage is the orgnisation charged with protecting wildlife. I won’t go into the numerous disastrous decisions made in the past few years. Current Chair is Dr Mike Cantlay OBE, who used to Chair the Tourist Board. Nuff said.

      https://www.nature.scot/about-snh/board-directors-and-committees/our-board/board-members

    199. Dogbiscuit says:

      Robert Grahame I’m trying to ‘defend ‘you lot.
      The enemies of the people are our crazy politicians.

    200. Dogbiscuit says:

      Beaker. You’re an idiot. Scotland needs intelligent people not you.

    201. Dogbiscuit says:

      Famous15 crawl back into Sturgeons handbag you fool.

    202. Allium says:

      @Susan 6.39

      Yes, there is a concerted, organised push underway by the woke to be adopted as candidates. They are throwing everything at this, all the usual names seem to have announced themselves overnight. Utterly ruinous. Apart from their oddball, unelectable views, they are some of the stupidest hangers-on in politics – albeit tenacious troughers. Goodbye to indy if they succeed.

    203. Dogbiscuit says:

      Teachers in this country lack courage. They could do with a decent education themselves.

    204. Dogbiscuit says:

      My thoughts on land reform. Balmoral would make a nice Artillery range . No?

    205. Dogbiscuit says:

      Baby boxes fucking yee ha

    206. Capella says:

      The choice of candidate is for the Branch to make. As long as members are aware of this issue there should be no problem. Each candidate is vetted, then there are hustings. One question to ask every candidate – do you accept that biological sex is real and that the rights of women and girls must be protected?

      If a Branch chooses a candidate who prevaricates on that question they deserve the ignominy they will reap in an election.

    207. jfngw says:

      BritNat: “You only want independence because you are a Nationalist and hate the English”

      IndyPerson: “No it’s because I want democracy”

      BritNat: “We are a democracy”

      IndyPerson: “Every country should be governed and their policies reflect the wishes of its voters”

      BrirNat: “So it’s back to hating the English then”

      IndyPerson: “I am English”

      BritNat: “Traitor”

    208. jfngw says:

      @Dogbiscuit

      You should try and stay off the alcohol till at least lunchtime.

    209. Dogbiscuit says:

      Sturgeon is not interested in Independence for Scotland. She is a globalist in the Blair mould. Witness her support for jihadi invaders in Syria. How did Al Nusra get ambulances with ‘Lothian and Borders’ as part of their paint scheme?

    210. Vinny says:

      Stoolie 9.47am

      England’s empire has been reduced to them being masters over only three Nations now.

      The three nations of Scotland, Wales and N Ireland are what England have got left to Rule over.

      That is why we get the “Devolved Nations” label. It gives England the feeling of being superior to the other three Nations.

      I suppose we should be grateful, because up until very recently these three Devolved Nations where known as “Regions” and were inhabited by Jocks, Taffs and Paddies.

      Oh how I detest this english empire we are are stuck in.

    211. Dogbiscuit says:

      Witness also Sturgeons links with Atlantic Council Hillary Clinton .Why are we still locked up?
      I know these pages are followed avidly by the SNP sex dwarves who work for Sturgeon. Your leader is not who she claims to be . She is another cypher of global corporate power brokers. She is a willing slave of the same people who fucked the economy in 2008 and who are still being baked out .
      I have a close relative who ran a formerly busy pub in the centre of Edinburgh. I have advised her that the pub will be put out of business by Holyrood due to the restrictions soon to be imposed. The council wants bar staff to clips on their customers. You will also need to book a place in advance the implications being a highly controlled population requiring official permissions in order to live your life. You might have your miserable lives but only as prisoners.
      Fools.

    212. Dogbiscuit says:

      Grass on their customers if the customer is suspected to have virus.
      A STASI society.
      Can some of you really not see it?
      What sheltered little snowflakes.

    213. Sensibledave says:

      RepublicofScotland

      You wrote “Using antiquated Henry VIII laws, to get your way,proroguing parliament, lying about money that would be better off used in our NHS, lying about immigrants that head to the UK and that’s just the stuff I recall off the top of my head.”

      Firstly, you are doing the “identity poitics” thing. It isn’t “my way”. I didnt vote to Leave. Nor did 16m other folk in the UK – but 17.4m did. So I was outvoted. As I may of mentioned, I live in South Oxfordhire, a Tory “shire”, and the majority of my fellow constituents voted by a substantial majority to Remain – just like in Scotland overall. But it wasnt a constituency vote was it. Having voted to stay in the UK, Scottish voters retained exactly the same rights to be treated, and counted, as every other UK citizen. One person, one vote. We lost the vote.

      Moving bto the subject of the UK government, there was afree and fair General ELection in the United Kingdom where every registered voter had an exactly equal opportunity to consider who they wanted to represent them at Westminster. You know the result of that free and fair election.

      Cherry picking “facts” that you argue were lies in the referendum or a GE is just silly. I absolutely know that in the Independence referendum, the majority of votes were cast in favour of Scotland staying in the UK. Do those Scots not have any rights? Should you have the right to overturn the result because you have decided that they were stupid or were lied to?

      You know the answer to most of the issues here on Wings recently. NS has not pushed for indyref2 because she does not believe she can win it at this time. There is way too much ammunition for Project Fear 2 – she judges that the “floaters” will take the safer “not now” option and will want to wait and see how Brexit, Oil, Borrowing, the economy, etc, pans out before they will swing behind independence.

      As usual, because you can’t convince your fellow Scots that you are right, you chose to blame me and other Englsh folk for denying your freedom. Scots are the only folk in the UK, in recent times, that have had the opportunity to express their opinion on being in the UK or not and you know the outcome.

      You need to look closer to home and assess why it is that the majority of Scots do not want SCotland to be an Independent country?

    214. Dogbiscuit says:

      jfngw you have a damned cheek boasting about being a democracy when your First Minister has removed all your rights and freedoms.What a dumbass you are. I would call you a horses arse but a horse is an intelligent animal even its arse compared to you.
      Are you nutters still enjoying house arrest?

    215. One_Scot says:

      Lol, some amount of Dogshit on here.

    216. Breeks says:

      Ottomanboi says:
      23 June, 2020 at 9:28 am
      Question:
      The SNP is classed as a constitutionalist party, ie a party electing to operate within a given, established legal framework, with reference to the history of independence movements elsewhere is adherence to constitutionalism a help or a hinderance in pursuit of its aims?

      The SNP talk the talk about Scottish Sovereignty and defend the Claim of Right, but do it as if they don’t know what the words mean. When presented with a genuine Constitutional dispute, even a vitally important constitutional dispute like Scotland’s Colonial Subjugation via Brexit, the SNP roll over and capitulate without a fight.

      You call them constitutionalists? Well, maybe they are “token” constitutionalists, but I’m going to call them hypocrites.

      I’ll repeat the important distinction…the notorious Section 30 which implies the Scottish people are not sovereign, is Section 30 of the Scotland Act; the constitution (small ‘c’) of a devolved Assembly. It didn’t exist before 1998.

      The Constitution of the Scottish Nation is 700 years old and unequivocally states the Scottish people are Sovereign, and thus our involuntary Brexit is unlawful colonial subjugation where the will of one Nation is overruled by a different Nation.

      If Holyrood won’t defend Scotland’s National integrity, then Holyrood is …”Giving up what he has begun, and agreeing to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English”.

      We should exert ourselves at once to drive him Holyrood out as our enemy and a subverter of his own rights and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King; for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule.”

      What are those “on any conditions” if not the conditions of the 1998 Scotland Act and it’s bullshit Section 30?

    217. Andy Ellis says:

      @ Capella 10.26am

      I wouldn’t have much faith in rank and file members in SNP branches identifying and excluding Woko Haram extremists. I’ve seen zero evidence of branches taking meaningful action against TRA extremism, or in getting the party hierarchy to rein in the worst excesses of the wokerati which appears to be eating the party from within. None of those participating in the project have been disciplined, still less ejected from the party and yet those accused of wrong-think like Gareth Wardell, Grace Finlay, Neale Hanvey etc are subject to almost instant action.

      Why is that do you think? Could it be because the party is institutionally corrupt?

      Why do those advancing TRA extremists views, seeking to de-platform and silence anyone who disagrees with them, abusing party members and office holders, and insisting “there is no debate” appear to be untouchable? I suspect the answer is that they know very well they have the ear of the leadership, and their tacit (and in many cases active) support.

      The party leadership will continue to facilitate this either because they are fully on board (when have you ever heard Sturgeon or her team condemn TRA extremism, or indeed be questioned about it by our supine media?), or because many of them simply lack the moral courage to put their heads above the parapet and call the woke Stasi out for what they are.

      The MPs, MSPs, councillors and activists who fail to defend Joanna Cherry and Joan McAlpine, those supporting attacks on LGB Alliance and lining up with the “there is no debate” flat earthers should hang their heads in shame.

    218. boris says:

      The demise of Corbyn and a return to power of the Zionist supporting “New Labour” brings with it an opportunity to bring the Scottish Branch to heel.

      And in this respect, the Party has Ian Murray “champing at the bit” ready to “clear out” any party officer refusing to commit to total adherence to the Unionist policies espoused by the English based leadership.

      But Murray is no longer a “one-man-band” he is backed by a phoney Zionist organization, operating out of Glasgow University, ably led by Baroness Smith, one of MI5s’ finest agents.

      https://caltonjock.com/2020/06/23/new-labour-back-in-control-no-place-for-scottish-lefties-under-ian-benito-murray/

    219. Beaker says:

      @Dogbiscuit says:
      23 June, 2020 at 10:12 am
      “Beaker. You’re an idiot. Scotland needs intelligent people not you.”

      Pot. Kettle. Black.

    220. callmedave says:

      As I said on the last thread where there was four reported corona virus outbreaks in the UK food industry (not Scotland so far)

      Maybe a pattern emerging.

      Coronavirus: Germany outbreak sparks fresh local lockdown,1300 workers and 360,000 in the local area.

      http://archive.vn/M1krc

    221. Prasad says:

      It could be explained by the right wing unionists believing in free market above content.
      And the average Yes, SNP voters still don’t yet understand the media is biased and often lying.
      It looks like the likes of TUS, Wings, GrouseBeater, Wee Ginger Dog and Colin Dunn etc are still working in a bubble.
      It is shocking but at the same time gives some hope. If people still believe the media is unbiased and we are still in the 52-54% realm then we just need to wake people up.
      Next question has to be. ‘Do you think the Scottish Media is biased?’

    222. cynicalHighlander says:

      The National

      http://archive.is/BZXhg

    223. Vinny says:

      O/T

      Just as a throw away stat, Sky News just reported that 88 (eighty eight) Black African Americans have been shot dead in America,,,,,,,,,this year.

      Jesus fuckin hell,,,no wonder they are fighting back.

      Anywhere else in the world the UN and NATO would have been called in.

      There is something seriously wrong here,(understatement) lol.

      And we are still only in June.

    224. Republicofscotland says:

      “Firstly, you are doing the “identity poitics” thing.”

      Sensible Dave.

      That’s what the Tories do that’s why they won the Brexit vote that’s why the won the GE, why else would Labours Red Belt an area destroyed by Thatcher, now vote for Johnson.

      “Cherry picking “facts” ”

      Isn’t that what counts facts, facts that Johnson and Farage were short on, shouldn’t facts and not lies and propaganda be the way votes are conducted?

      . “I absolutely know that in the Independence referendum, the majority of votes were cast in favour of Scotland staying in the UK”

      Indeed but why, must be the question lies and deception must be the answer.

      Well did you know that Lord George Robertson said on unionist TV as all the following was that Scottish independence would lead to the Balkanisation of Western Europe. Or that Scots were lied to that they’d lose their pensions on independence, or they wouldn’t receive the BBC (a bonus I think) or that England would need to bomb our airports, or that we’d be open to attack from outer space, or that we couldn’t use the pound of which Alistair Darling declared we couldve used it after no won.

      This again is just the tip of a very big unionist iceberg of lies and deceit that was wheeled out in 2014.

      “You know the answer to most of the issues here on Wings recently. NS has not pushed for indyref2 because she does not believe she can win it at this time”

      Now that’s rubbish, Sturgeon isn’t pushing for indyref 2 because she’s comfortable in government, and she knows right now her stock is high. If she get her finger out and I have serious doubts that she will and uses next years elections as a independence referendum, then I’m very confident that yes would win.

      “As usual, because you can’t convince your fellow Scots that you are right, you chose to blame me and other Englsh folk for denying your freedom”

      First of all it’s not my fellow Scots that are denying Scotland the democratic right to choose its future it’s the
      Westminster government, and it’s English head Johnson. On saying that there are Scottish gatekeepers happy with the status quo because they’re doing well out of this horrible one-sided union, so yes I suppose your right in that aspect.

    225. Republicofscotland says:

      “The demise of Corbyn and a return to power of the Zionist supporting “New Labour” brings with it an opportunity to bring the Scottish Branch to heel.”

      Boris.

      I find Labour now even more of an embarrassment to socialism, with a millionaire knight of the realm at its head. At least Corbyn espoused socialist tendencies, and that’s why the massive anti-Corbyn campaign was rolled out to make sure he had to go.

      With Starmer at the helm, they’ve went from the sublime to the ridiculous, with socialism in mind.

    226. Papko says:

      If this Stockholm syndrome exists, it would be hard to believe that it only affects “Yoons”(bit like Covid-19 affecting only those with certain political view points) or any other frailty in the human condition.

      Could it not be that many YES supporters just like being Yes supporters. Forever the uncompromising, talented, young,rock-star rebels.
      And the prospect of actually enacting their beliefs fills them with a dread an anxiety and a pining for things just as they are.

      Please note that YES was sweeping the boards prior to the week before the vote, and then the first poll showed a YES majority.
      It then waned as if many YES voters realised they could not go through with it for whatever reason.

    227. CameronB Brodie says:

      Either Sensibledave is on the wide-up, or he is truly a fascist, IMHO.

    228. A Person says:

      -Dogbiscuit-

      A Stasi society? Puh-lease! One of the reasons that I am (now) in favour of ending the lockdown is that most people I know have been flouting it for the last three weeks. Dinner parties, house parties, a relative of mine has been down to the south of England three times to visit his girlfriend. The track and trace app failed because people were too stubborn about privacy to download it (quite rightly IMO). Utterly farcical nonsense of politicians saying “you can now meet up with six people” when people have been doing it for weeks.

      I have a sneaking suspicion that the Cummings incident was manufactured by Johnson deliberately to break public support for the lockdown- in which case it worked.

      As soon as pubs etc reopen these schemes will collapse.

    229. iain mhor says:

      @callmedave 11:22am

      Always would be a hotspot and predicted ages ago (not that it did much good) and it’s the first industry out the blocks, with a couple more to come.

      How do you best preserve a virus – Refrigerate it or Heat it?
      How do you condense your breath – Cool it, or heat it.

      Blend the above with the fact that those specifically are intensive production lines, with many people travelling to, from and working, in close proximity.
      Anywhere working in refrigeration /food services (including local supermarket chills etc) will see this to a degree, depending on conditions. One factor is R0.

      If Covid did not exist, how many people working in such conditions will come down with seasonal flu?
      Very many and they do. The industry has the highest prevalence of seasonal flu amongst workers and that is well known in the food industry.
      That includes the general food service industry. Kitchens, serving staff etc. Not least because of the culture of not taking time off sick (ask a chef, or serving staff if they take many sick days)

      Anyone interested should have a search for UK studies; but
      here is a CDC report from 2014 (U.S 2009-2010 Flu season) reiterating prior findings. A quick search on t’internet will throw up plenty of more digestible articles.

      https://bit.ly/3etlXlZ

      Precis:

      “During the 2009–10 influenza season, when a global pandemic of novel influenza A (H1N1) was under way, both the prevalence of influenza-like illness in the prior month and the cumulative incidence of seasonal and 2009 pandemic H1N1 influenza (pH1N1) vaccination varied significantly by employment status and among workers in different industry and occupation groups. The highest prevalence of influenza-like illness symptoms was reported by those employed in the industry groups “Real estate and rental and leasing” (10.5%) and “Accommodation and food services” (10.1%), and in the occupation groups “Food preparation and serving related” (10.9%) and “Community and social services” (8.3%). These groups of workers had relatively low levels of both seasonal
      and pH1N1 influenza vaccination coverage”

    230. Vinny says:

      Those 88 black deaths in America were from law enforcement officers only.

    231. Iain More says:

      Propping up the Yoon Propaganda machinery illustrates just how far the SNP has sunk. Giving money to the Foreign owned and controlled Fascist Press and Media is just a no-no.

    232. CameronB Brodie says:

      Despite much effort to educate Sensibledave’s narrow cultural chauvinism, he is a Tory at heart, so is not prepared to acknowledge international law or the principle of universal human rights.

      The Supremacy of International Law? – Part Two
      Written by Sir Daniel Bethlehem KCMG QC

      Editor’s Note: This is the text of the 2nd Annual British Embassy (The Hague) International Law Lecture, delivered on 23 May 2016 (part two of two). Part one is available here.

      https://www.ejiltalk.org/the-supremacy-of-international-law-part-two/

    233. Stuart MacKay says:

      Scot Finlayson, Capella – behind the scenes. You can bet there’s a lot of it going on.

      Scottish National Heritage have an interesting relationship with landowners. See for example, https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2018/04/20/snh-issues-licence-for-mass-raven-cull-in-5-year-experiment/ There was a huge outcry over this and, eventually, the license was suspended (note: it was not revoked).

      And yet, shortly afterwards, this happened, https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2019/07/11/police-investigate-as-100-dead-birds-found-in-loch-freuchie-in-strathbraan-raven-cull-area/

      So Scottish Natural Heritage don’t appear to able to fill their legal obligations and the Scottish Government does not seem inclined to hold their feet to the fire over it either.

      Incidentally, Ruth Tingay has done a massive amount of good work on exposing wildlife crime in Scotland. If you want to see the scale of Scotland’s embarrassment on the international stage you should follow her blog, https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/

    234. Ottomanboi says:

      BREEKS 11:30
      I believe the actions of the SNP indicate it is British constitutionalist. It sticks to the ‘rule of law’ mantra seemingly without questioning ‘whose law?’.
      Scared of its own shadow? Troubled by the enormity of the task set before it? At ease in its comfy devolved armchair? However popular among the masses the purpose has become pixelated.
      Being an efficient subsidiary legislature in a quasi federal structure is not its purpose.
      Raising a storm to wreck the worm eaten Unionist boat, is.
      At the moment the boat has fair weather.

    235. iain mhor says:

      @Repupblicofscotland 9:14am

      All well and good. The thing is, as I posted previously, alternatives to ‘Plan A’ are difficult to fathom (for me) Most include within their premise, the inherent powers – the inherited ability – to unilaterally hold a referendum. So if you can, why wouldn’t you? Any ‘Plan B’ has to be quite interesting to avoid that conclusion.

      I understand ‘Plan B’ is possibly just some shorthand meaning, either ‘Don’t ask Westminster’, or ‘Don’t have a referendum (?)
      But I just take a more logical view – based on what is the ternative to ‘Plan A’ meaning a referendum (undefined) whatever the machinery used to achieve it.
      I can’t quite fathom any ‘democratic’ alternative, which doesn’t also allow for Scotland to hold a referendum if it chose to.
      Am I missing something everyone else seems to know?

    236. Capella says:

      @ Stuart MacKay – yes that’s one of the indefensible decisions made by SNH. It seems to me that the chair made it on his own authority and he is not an expert in wildlife. The previous chair failed to enforce the rules on deer culling and also, as we know, the illegal killing of raptors and winter hares is allowed to continue without enforcing the law.

      These are ministerial appointments. However, what choice the minister has is questionable.

    237. Capella says:

      Radio Scotland has now broadcast Boris Johnston’s announcements for England instead of Nicola Sturgeon’s update for Scotland. They are now attempting to confuse the public as much as possible and stir up trouble for the Scottish Government. Appalling propaganda tool.

    238. CameronB Brodie says:

      Scots, including many of our politicians, tend to internalise a sense of learned helplessness (the ‘cringe’). This is not good, as it sustains Scotland’s deprivation, in terms of our constrained access to democratic justice.

      Learned Helplessness and Students with Emotional or Behavioral Disorders: Deprivation in the Classroom
      https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/019874290402900208

    239. Famous15 says:

      Scotland is being gaslighted.

      We are clearly being made to feel unworthy.

      Just listen to the press questions at the FM briefing.I find them insulting.

    240. CameronB Brodie says:

      Fortunately, there is a lot of practical knowledge on how to challenge learned helplessness, so it is not an insurmountable social disorder.

      What Is Learned Helplessness and Why Does it Happen?
      https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-learned-helplessness-2795326

    241. jfngw says:

      @Dogbiscuit

      I bow to your intellect, such a way with words. I’ve forwarded your comments to the Nobel committee for literature, no one should miss these words of wisdom. You are Scotland’s Solzhenitsyn (if you are Scottish), I await ‘A day in the life of dogbiscuit’ with anticipation.

    242. Bob Mack says:

      @jfngw,

      Now now. Don’t be ruff on him.

    243. jfngw says:

      Publicans are reassuring those in England their pubs will be safe for one metre and their customers health is their utmost priority. Anyone visiting the gents toilet in most pubs will be thinking they must have gone to a different establishment from the one being described.

    244. Capella says:

      R4 lunch time news, after the fanfare or wheyhey the pubs are opening, got round to asking somebody who knows something about infectious disease. A very worried scientist, who has advised the SAGE committee, thinks Boris Johnstone’s announcement means that lives will be lost as a consequence.

      BJ has caved in to commercial pressure. “And if a few pensioners die, too bad.”

    245. Alec Lomax says:

      Stasi Scotland ! It’s the way you tell ’em, dogbiscuit !

    246. Capella says:

      R Scotland have already rescheduled to cut off the start of Nicola Sturgeon’s daily update to go to “the news where you are”. She always announces the latest figures first, so we now miss that completely.

      Today, however, they went to Westminster after “the news where you are” to hear what Boris Johnston has to say for England. Then over to NS for the tail end of the press questions. Then cut away from that before the end.

      I guess that Dominic Cummings has thought of a clever wheeze. Get Boris to make announcements at 12.30 and that means that he can upstage Nicola Sturgeon. After all, his much fanfared changes won’t happen till July 4th. Hardly imminent.

      Remember when they rushed out the announcement of the “world beating app” a week before it was due to start because NS was announcing the start of Scotland’s track trace and isolate programme. Now their app has been binned.

      What a pathetic bunch of buffoons they are. The BBC is complicit in their spin operations.

    247. Pete says:

      Capella
      You talk so much rubbish.
      Sturgeons full statement was on BBC1 whilst Boris was on BBC2.
      In addition Boris was clear that his statement was only for England and the other nations would be doing there own thing.
      Anyway, looks like the SG is already starting to backtrack and I would imagine we’ll be doing the same as England but probably a week later.
      Also, Swinney is now being pressured to get schools back to normal.
      What an idiot that man is!
      The whole thing is a nonsense, complete and utter.

    248. Dan says:

      Not sure if anyone clicked on the few retro links I posted around midnight.
      Reading through them again so many aspects make you roll your eyes when we consider how things panned out during the IndyRef campaign and with many events since.
      The IndyRef must be seen to adhere to so many high standards so the result is valid… Then you think how Better Together with Project Fear kicked in, and then how the EU Ref was run…
      Westminster insisting everything requires to be legal to uphold sound democratic practices because that is how the Mother of all Parliaments does things… But Boris proroguing Parliament, Well eh, we’ll just move swiftly on from that incident if you don’t mind…

      This text caught my attention in 23. with regard to Gold Standard shiz:

      https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmscotaf/542/54205.htm

      An adjustment of legislative competence under Section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998 would enable the Scottish Parliament to legislate for a referendum on the basis set out above. If the UK Government is unwilling to agree to such an adjustment without dictating unacceptable conditions, the Scottish Government will have the option of a referendum on the basis set out in paragraph 1.5. [i.e. a question like their 2010 draft which was designed to be within the limitations of existing legislative competence.][16]

      There are so many other matters covered that appear to be open to interpretation and influence which just allows all sorts of sophistry to develop.

      C’mon, wakey wakey Scotland, why would you cede the most significant powers to control and influence your destiny to be part of an archaic quagmire of a Union that does not allow you to have an equal say in how those powers are exercised.

    249. CameronB Brodie says:

      Without a respect for international law (see the Treat of Union), the British constitution simply articulates authoritarian English nationalism. As Brexit rejects the Natural Law, Brexitania can not be considered a social democracy. So either the Scottish government starts to respect international law, or they will be complicit in its’ harm.

      National law can not be used to remove the EU rights of citizens, against their will. Not in a democracy anyway.

      THE IMPACT OF INTERNATIONAL LAW UPON NATIONAL
      LAW: A POLlCY-ORIENTED PERSPECTIVE

      http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3562&context=fss_papers;The

    250. Dan says:

      Dr Craig Dalzell appears aligned with my view that perpetual mandate farming may not be the most prudent way to progress matters.

      https://thecommongreen.scot/2020/06/20/the-road-to-independence-part-one-a-democratic-event/

    251. Capella says:

      @ Pete – you clearly don’t read. I was talking about RADIO SCOTLAND AND RADIO 4. OK? Got that?

      I was talking about the difference between a public service broadcaster and a state broadcaster.

      I don’t pay the TV tax so never watch BBC television. I listen to radio updates about the corona virus. I expect the broadcaster to give me important information, not Boris Johnston’s spin doctor’s baloney.

    252. Sensibledave says:

      Republicofscotland 11:43 am

      You wrote “That’s what the Tories do that’s why they won the Brexit vote that’s why the won the GE, why else would Labours Red Belt an area destroyed by Thatcher, now vote for Johnson.

      No RoS, its what ALL political parties do! The press and politicians (and here on Wings) were constantly putting out the scare stories about Nissan, Honda, and thousands of other firms fleeing .. as fact. It wasnt a “fact” then, its not now, and, to be honest, from what we have seen recently, most of the stories are actually the other way round. I give that as an example of lies and deceit spread by the Remain grouping.

      You underestimate voters. Voters listen to the various arguments (knowing that politicians seem to lie or exagerate all of the time) and then make a decision. It simply doent wash that one side was responsible for deceit whilst the other were as pure as the driven snow (I voted Remain by the way).

      You wrote “Indeed but why, must be the question lies and deception must be the answer.”

      Why “must” it be? You choose to believe that – but the GE result would suggest, four years later, and with all the water under the bridge in that time, that nothing had changed and the “Red Wall” still knew what they wanted.

      You wrote “Well did you know that Lord George Robertson said on unionist TV as all the following was that Scottish independence would lead to the Balkanisation of Western Europe. Or that Scots were lied to that they’d lose their pensions on independence, or they wouldn’t receive the BBC (a bonus I think) or that England would need to bomb our airports, or that we’d be open to attack from outer space, or that we couldn’t use the pound of which Alistair Darling declared we couldve used it after no won.”

      … those issues are just the cut and thrust of politics and both sides were equally guilty. I note that you choose not to mention the lies from the Remainers.

      You wrote “This again is just the tip of a very big unionist iceberg of lies and deceit that was wheeled out in 2014.

      I know you wont like to hear this, but folk in england do not spend their time thinking about how they can pee off the Scots in referenda and GEs. Contrary to the oft mentioned trope on here, folk in England, do not consider themselves to be “Unionists” and do not vote in referenda and GEs on anything to do with “Unionism”. I think that is a big problem for some pro indy folk because you simply do not understand that. Were you conerned about the issues being faced by my in South Oxfordhire when you voted for the SNP in the GE?

      You wrote “Now that’s rubbish, Sturgeon isn’t pushing for indyref 2 because she’s comfortable in government, and she knows right now her stock is high. If she get her finger out and I have serious doubts that she will and uses next years elections as a independence referendum, then I’m very confident that yes would win.

      OK… lets go with your proposition and let me pretend for a minute that I am involved in the Holyrood election campaign. Here are just a few of the Project Fear 2 headlines I might use:

      “They wanted a referendum. You gave then your decision. They said it would be once in a generation. Now they want to verturn your decision. Dont vote SNP!”

      “If you want to wait for a referendum to decide Scotland’s future DONT VOTE FOR THE SNP”

      “Dont let the SNP overrule the Independence referendum result – they are trying to hijack democracy”

      “The SNP will say the Election is a referenda – right up until the moment they dont receive a majority of all the votes – then they will seemlessly revert back to banging on about a referendum because they dont listen to the anyone else in SCotland other than Independence voters. They do not care about the “people” of Scotland … they only care about their supporters .. and most of them are nuts!

      “If you want out of the EU … and out of the UK… and have no trade deals with anyone and be left on the sidelines – vote SNP”

      “The SNP will create a situation, when oil prices are on the floor, when the world’s economy is at very low ebb and national borrowing is at historic high level – where Scotland isnt in the UK, isnt in the EU, and doesnt have any trade deals with anyone”

      …. That took about 5 mins to think up.

      In addition, the campaign would be focusing on “not now” too! Wait until CV 19 is over, wait until we can see how Brexit works out. Wait until we see how economies go. etc. Just wait another year or two … you know it makes sense.

      NS knows that is the sort of thing that would be part of the campaign and, in my view, she judges that beause of those factors that apply at this time … It cant be won.

      You wrote “”First of all it’s not my fellow Scots that are denying Scotland the democratic right to choose its future it’s the Westminster government”.

      The MPS representing all constituencies at Westminster in the UK voted by a huge majority for Scotland to have a referendum on Independence just a few years ago. So that is just not true is it.

      What you really mean is that you dont like the result of the last referendum and , like the EU, if you get a result you dont like, make people do it again until they give the “right” answer.

      Please do not misinterpret my responses above. Like most people I know down here, I am of the view that whatever the majority of Scottish voters want, then they should get … including Indpendence. Most peole are “cool” with that.

      Let me ask you a question (I asked it on a previous thread) if the next Holyrood Election are held and the SNP have a policy to say that they are working on the basis that it is a quasi referendum on Indpendence, are you going to accept the result (whatever it may be? …. Project Fear 2 will then almost certainly be fought in your election and, again, for what it is worth, it is my judgement (together with Ms Sturgeon) that that would produce a bad outcome that woulod set back the cause for many years.

    253. Joe says:

      @vinny

      By demographic the people who kill most blacks in the US are blacks. The people who kill the most whites are blacks. The people who kill the most asians are blacks . The most robberies and rapes by far as a % are black. In Chicago recently nearly 20 blacks were murdered by other blacks in 24 hours

    254. Joe says:

      @vinny

      By demographic the people who kill most blacks in the US are blacks. The people who kill the most whites are blacks. The people who kill the most asians are blacks . The most robberies and r*pes by far as a % are black. In Chicago recently nearly 20 blacks were murdered by other blacks in 24 hours

    255. Joe says:

      During the Ferguson riots a little black girl doing her homework was killed by a stray bullet from a drive-by shooting (blacks) and nobody gave it attention while focusing on the useless criminal who got rightfully dropped by the cop he tried to assault. Black lives only matter when theees political points to score

    256. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ask yourselves this. Why would someone who professes no interest in Scotland’s constitutional decisions, spend years punting British nationalism on a site that supports Scotland’s self-determination?

      Papers on Social Representations Volume 22, pages 16.1-16.32 (2013)
      Creating Sign Hierarchies: Social Representation In Its Dynamic Context

      http://psr.iscte-iul.pt/index.php/PSR/article/download/304/265/

    257. callmedave says:

      WM Gov announces that no more daily updates to be given as from tomorrow.

      Figures from BBC colonial websites are in and the SUN reporting ‘official’ figures for England only daily number and the UK total.

      Scotland…………today……04……..Total…2476….BBC
      Wales……………today……05……..Total…1483….BBC
      N. Ireland……….today……01……..Total….546….BBC
      England………….today…..*46……..Total..no data..*SUN
      ==============================================================
      UK………………today…no data……Total..*42693…*SUN

    258. Republicofscotland says:

      “During the Ferguson riots a little black girl doing her homework was killed by a stray bullet from a drive-by shooting (blacks) and nobody gave it attention while focusing on the useless criminal who got rightfully dropped by the cop he tried to assault. Black lives only matter when theees political points to score”

      Joe.

      A truly shortsighted post, what about the hundreds of years of oppression, slavery and murder the black man has faced long before the Ferguson riots in America? Do they count for nothing, should they be committed to the dustbin of history because of this drive by shooting by black folk?

      Of course not only narrow minded folk, or people with ulterior motives or racist tendencies would think so, not that I’m in any way saying you fit that criteria.

      I find it difficult to comprehend how hard it must be for a young black child growing up in poverty in the USA, not only does that child have a tough time of trying to live correctly, get a job etc, but he also faces the added stigma of racism too boot, in what is essentially the uneven playing field of life.

      It’s not hard to understand why African- America people are angry, and riot given their second class citizen status in the USA.

    259. Robert graham says:

      I am watching something on u/tube just now and on in the background is The Chamber in Holyrood and the usual pantomime is underway.

      3 Foreign based Unionist political Parties whose MSPs are mostly gifted their place ,not by the voting Public but by their own party, this is the De Fucked up system at work , not in theory but how it actually works in the real world , Murdo being just one example a 5 time rejected failure

      What other Country in the world would allow any politician to comment, vote, or have any involvement in that Parliaments administrative procedures , who haven’t first been voted for and accepted by the voting public as responsible respected people ?

      Answer OURS WOULD as far as I know the only country on the Planet that accepts this Shite .

      Anyway my whole point was I don’t understand why SNP government ministers take the questions from these imposters seriously ,Why don’t they just rip the Pish out of them. Get a fn Grip .

    260. Robert graham says:

      I get the feeling JOE is trying to make a point , I wonder what it is please remind us JOE most of us didn’t get it the first 5 – 10 – 15 times , aye you can’t keep a persistent fkr down eh .

    261. Pete says:

      Vinny
      I was about to challenge you but I see that Joe has beaten me to it.
      Anyway, if we look at the UK, most murders are black on black, especially in London.
      As a percentage of the population the most crime is carried out by blacks.
      Therefore the prison population is predominantly black as a percentage.
      Are you listening?
      Or, as I suspect, your brain is so addled with woke ideas that you can’t see the wood from the trees.
      I would imagine you have ‘taken the knee’ and have probably criticised the guys who organised the ‘white lives matter’ banner.
      What a great wheeze that was. Had the BBC in full meltdown mode.

    262. Liz g says:

      Joe @ 2.40
      OR…..mostly “blacks” are caught and convicted for these crimes??
      Most rapes aren’t even reported!
      You say nothing about unsolved murders!
      As for robberies… You make no comparison with other countries,which may show that it is poverty not race that indicates the propensity to be included in the figures for robberies!
      Try Scotland,if it really was only “blacks” we’d see that here..Aye?

      You also say nothing about corporate crime,with its much greater financial gain and much lower conviction rate,are we to ignore the “whiteness” of it?
      I guess what I’m really sayin Joe, is that your regurgitating one of the mantras of social control utilising race, also known as talking shite.
      Think man!

    263. CameronB Brodie says:

      I known a bit about how to spot a racist, and we have a few btl, posing as being fair-minded. Just saying. 😉

      Racial Discrimination, Ethnic-Racial Socialization, and Crime: A Micro-sociological Model of Risk and Resilience
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3777442/

    264. Vinny says:

      Joe 2.40

      I am not taking sides Joe.

      I just thought the figure of 88 black Deaths this year alone by law enforcement officers in America was extraordinary.

    265. Republicofscotland says:

      “No RoS, its what ALL political parties do! The press and politicians (and here on Wings) were constantly putting out the scare stories about Nissan, Honda, and thousands of other firms fleeing .. as fact. It wasnt a “fact” then, its not now,”

      Sensible Dave.

      There are too many pages to links on Google on the companies moving business one way or another out of the UK due to Brexit, I shalnt post them all just this one. Oh and Dave, expect anothe exodus of companies if it’s a no deal.

      https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-companies-leaving-uk-list-job-cuts-eu-no-deal-customs-union-a8792296.html

      “You underestimate voters. Voters listen to the various arguments (knowing that politicians seem to lie or exagerate all of the time) and then make a decision. It simply doent wash that one side was responsible for deceit whilst the other were as pure as the driven snow (I voted Remain by the way).”

      Actually Dave, it comes down to money, in this case Tory dark money, they spent far more on advertising their lies than the other parties put together, they paid for and received more airtime than the other parties, Johnson dodged Andrew Neil, and the ever Tory friendly BBC didn’t bat an eye lid. Nigel Farage had a safe seat on Question Time, even though he never was a MP. The state propaganda machine and the Tory government was geared towards leaving the EU from day one.

      “I know you wont like to hear this, but folk in england do not spend their time thinking about how they can pee off the Scots in referenda and GEs. ”

      Dave, you’ve been commenting in here for how long?, Years I presume and you still don’t get it do you? It’s not about the people of England, nor hating them, it’s the Westminster government that’s the focal point of our anger. I and I’m sure most of the Scottish independence supports have no I’ll will towards English folk, infact there’s even a English folk for Scottish independence movement in Scotland.

      “That took about 5 mins to think up.”

      And it shows Dave it really shows, that’s how convincing it sounds.

      “The MPS representing all constituencies at Westminster in the UK voted by a huge majority for Scotland to have a referendum on Independence just a few years ago. So that is just not true is it.”

      “What you really mean is that you dont like the result of the last referendum and , like the EU, if you get a result you dont like, make people do it again until they give the “right” answer.”

      Your first paragraph is correct, however Johnson is denying our democratic right as a sovereign people to hold a second referendum by denying consent. Do you think it’s right Dave that just because we lost the first referendum that there shouldn’t be another one when the Scottish people want it?

      As for your second paragraph of course I didn’t like the results of the first referendum or the Brexit result, the latter saw 62% of my fellow country women/men feel the same way. This is one reason why this dreadful union must end.

      “Let me ask you a question (I asked it on a previous thread) if the next Holyrood Election are held and the SNP have a policy to say that they are working on the basis that it is a quasi referendum on Indpendence, are you going to accept the result (whatever it may be? …. Project Fear 2 will then almost certainly be fought in your election and, again, for what it is worth, it is my judgement (together with Ms Sturgeon) that that would produce a bad outcome that woulod set back the cause for many years.”

      You’re describing Plan B, Dave, which is a damn sight better than waiting for Johnson to give his consent, as for accepting the result, yes I would, as long as it’s all above board I’m confident that yes would win this time around, and consign this horrid union to the annuls of history forever.

    266. CameronB Brodie says:

      Racism is tightly bound-up with the authoritarian resistance to social change. Both of these social characteristics are integral to British nationalism.

      Racism, Resistance and Social Change
      https://manchesteruniversitypress.co.uk/series/racism-resistance-and-social-change/

    267. jfngw says:

      @Joe

      A lot of claims there but no links to prove it, unless you can backup these stats then I will take them with a pinch of salt.

    268. ahundredthidiot says:

      I would be wary of the second wave for covid, had there been a first wave.

      There wasn’t. Not in Pandemic terms. Just doesn’t register.

      Before anyone gets all uppity, the ‘first wave’ – despite changes to registration meaning no deaths were reported for 5 days causing backlogs to mortuary space and funeral arrangements – was handled within BAU capacity.

      That is simply a statement of FACT.

      Pandemic my arse……more like the Aussie flu we were told to expect way back last summer.

      Still, the wee covid nazis and their bed-wetting buddies keep banging on about this and quite frankly, seem to be enjoying it.

      I need a pint!

    269. jfngw says:

      Now that Westminster has effectively declared everything is back to normal from the 4th July in England I expect independence now to return to the SNP table. I remained a member despite my misgiving, it’s time to end the jaw,jaw and get on with independence.

    270. John D says:

      @ CBB re that Tory Dave. Just file him under fascist Tory and you’ve covered the racism , dishonesty and deviant behaviour that come with it . Remember most people in England aren’t Tory . We have a bent voting system to go with the other bent pillars of UK empire. The greatest pillage the world has seen . A plundering pirate escapade that has had some good times for many along the way . Unfortunately for the vast majority who encountered it in the past and now it is only for the benefit of those born deserving according to an English God defended by a divinely appointed monarch .
      When hunts like that Dave chat their shite just remember their massive victories they bang on about for Brexit and the last GE were achieved with support of 40% and <30% of the electorate. So much is their disconnect from democracy.

    271. jfngw says:

      Anybody who has recently seen Ian Macwhirter pieces must wonder what his position is, it looks like he is after Ton Gordon’s job. He is now 100% Herald property, it’s amazing what the threat to your bank balance can do to your backbone.

    272. Republicofscotland says:

      Ian@ 12.55pm.

      Sorry Ian I missed your post, this is the link I intended.

      The Chris McEleny link.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/18534617.chris-mceleny-holyrood-2021-seek-mandate-independence/

      However to get back to your comment, of course all referenda are fraught with shall we say Murphy’s Law.

      If Johnson continues to ignore our pleas for a S30 order, and he probably will, saying no costs him nothing, then I see Plan B as using next years Scottish elections also as a independence referendum, and a pro-independence majority’s as a cue to declare independence and springboard to negotiating our exit from this nasty union.

      Of course Ian, there’s a sticking point as usual, more than one I might add, is Sturgeon committed to such a bold and brave move unlikely, as the SNP coffers are empty, and Sturgeon appears comfortable governing on competent policies that’s kept her in office. Then there’s the International community would we really need to get them onside? Well, I suppose it would depend on Westminsters reaction to our independence. Johnson has been denying us our democratic right as a sovereign people, so a international court might look favourably on our actions.

      One thing I know for sure Ian is to doing nothing leaves us stuck in this hellish limbo, at the mercy of Westminster and whatever it sees fit for Scots.

    273. CameronB Brodie says:

      John D
      He does his best to disguise his true identity, but I had him clocked a long time ago. As with a few others. 😉

      MANAGING DIVERSITY AND CULTURAL DIFFERENCES
      https://philippepierre.com/website/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Managing-Diversity-and-Cultural-Differences-From-Resistance-to-Recognition-by-Companies.pdf

    274. jfngw says:

      @ahundrethidiot

      Those 42,000 (confirmed with test) people that died in the UK of nothing are going to be mightily pissed off they hadn’t consulted you first. Just imagine you could still be alive if they had followed the idiots advice.

    275. John D says:

      @ dogbiscuit . I get your frustration and agree on may levels that this near global governmental restrictions do not bare scrutiny according to the deaths suffered. If people are actually concerned about life of folk then look at just some comparisons this year
      Cause of death. Total

      Covid 19. < 500,000
      Hunger. 5,350,000
      AIDS / HIV. 804,000
      Malaria. 469,000
      Smoking. 2,300,000
      Alcohol 1,196,000
      Suicides. 513,000
      Water related diseases. 402,000
      Abortions. 20,345,000

      So I get why this global experiment offers many questions

    276. CameronB Brodie says:

      John D
      I take your point, but none of those causes of death have the potential to overwhelm the global health system. We have no protection against covid-19, yet, and our societies still need time to restructure, if we hope for adequate compliance with the needs of public health. That’s my take on things anyway.

    277. Joe says:

      @Republicofscotland
      I think its less to do with slavery and racism and more to gang/hip-hop culture coupled with victim narrative being injected into the brains of the young

      @Jfngw
      Take it with salt, pepper and ketchup if you please.

    278. Joe says:

      @Liz g

      At one point in Scotland everyone new that Glaswegians were the bams of the nation. Was that some genetic trait? Or was it Glaswegian hardman culture and social conditions? Was it wrong to say that its a fact? Change the race though and it would be a taboo/racist subject

    279. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      I see you, and know exactly how to boot your nads, metaphorically speaking.

      White Men Write Now: Deconstructed and Reconstructed Borders of Identity in Contemporary American Literature by White Men
      https://edoc.ub.uni-muenchen.de/5859/1/Manson_Richard.pdf

    280. Joe says:

      Everybody tiptoes around the facts and so the problems continue. When my wife worked in the US in a restaurant ordinary black americans would tip her regularly tip the equivilent of 3 or 4 days wages in her home country. A white country. You dont see her parents burning shit because communists kept them in total societal and economic subjegation

    281. John D says:

      @CBB
      That’s a big BUT after getting my point. Just look at those figures and tell me why the near 6,000,000 deaths due to hunger and lack of access to safe drinking water isn’t a concern that should match that of Covid 19 . If not then please explain in simple terms cos I am really struggling to differentiate if concern for lives is THE reason behind these unprecedented restrictions on individual liberty by nearly all governments.
      I can understand it has been embraced by many regimes as a convenient experiment that we are as yet to know the upshot of . I think many governments and people have been surprised at how compliant most people have been. Though others knew better and it’s why they talk of herds .

    282. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      Do us all a favour and simply be honest about who you really are.

      Liminal and Hybrid Aspects of Intersemiotics

      Foreword
      Studying society (i.e. people and their culture as a whole) from an intersemiotic approach raises several intriguing questions that emerge from the specific meaning ascribed to the particle “inter”.

      In this respect, reference to the whole – or all the cultural categories combined – and the conceptual and organizational schemata that lie beneath the constitution of society and its production, implies a certain conception of limit. The latter can be defined either in terms of “border” (which only divides), or of “threshold” (which both divides and connects).

      The aim of this article is to explore the question of intersemiotics from the theoretical perspectives opened up by two closely-related key concepts, that characterize different historical cultural climates: liminality and hybridity….

      https://www.inst.at/trans/16Nr/01_2/schechter16.htm

    283. CameronB Brodie says:

      John D
      I agree with you completely, there is little moral logic in view. I really don’t think this is an experiment though, governments aren’t that competent or cooperative. Apart from possibly Mongolia. 🙂

    284. Sensibledave says:

      RoS 3.47

      You wrote “ You’re describing Plan B, Dave, which is a damn sight better than waiting for Johnson to give his consent, as for accepting the result, yes I would, as long as it’s all above board I’m confident that yes would win this time around, and consign this horrid union to the annuls of history forever.”

      Two things, in the paragraph before the quote above, you talked about not allowing “the people of Scotland their sovereign right, or words to that effect. Firstly, who appointed you, or indeed anyone else, the right to say what the “people of Scotland” want. As is argued regularly here on Wings, not even some declared Indy supporters want an independence referendum at this time. I am therefore reasonably sure that there is unlikely to be a majority of Scots voters that do want an indyref now. So claiming you “know” otherwise, takes us back to the fibbing that goes on in campaigns.

      On to second point, in your quote above, your stated position is somewhat different to many others here. They make the point that “the people of Scotland” should be able to hold referenda as often as they wish. I have some sympathy with that … except it is only the side that represent those that lost the last referendum vote that claim to speak for “the people of Scotland”. There is no ballot box evidence of what the “people of Scotland” want. Those Scots that voted No have rights too and it is very clear that many here on Wings give no credence to that notion.

      There is lots of talk about oppression of the sovereign rights of the “people of Scotland”. Providing, it seems, they are people of Scotland that you agree with.

    285. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sensibledave
      You’re just like a mangy tomcat marking his territory.

      Holding on to place
      Spatialities of resistance in Israel and Palestine: the cases of Hebron, Silwan and al-Araqib

      https://cadmus.eui.eu/bitstream/handle/1814/38905/Lecoquierre_2016.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y

    286. ahundredthidiot says:

      imbecile at 4:20

      they died of a bad strain of flu – but feel free to be scammed in live in fear.

      people do die you know – or is your gig to live forever?

      good luck with that – mug

    287. CameronB Brodie says:

      ahundredthidiot
      You’d be mildly amusing in other circumstances.

      Beyond Health Care: The Role of Social Determinants in Promoting Health and Health Equity
      https://www.kff.org/disparities-policy/issue-brief/beyond-health-care-the-role-of-social-determinants-in-promoting-health-and-health-equity/

    288. Liz g says:

      Joe @ 4.48
      Firstly.there are as far as I’m concerned no taboo subjects!

      But mainly,you’re argument makes no sense,you’re comparing a city to a country and a snap shot of time to a few centuries.
      What I asked was, if being “black” was really a predisposition to violence and crime ( which is what you seemed to say the figures showed ) why doesn’t it show up that way in Scotland ?

    289. deerhill says:

      Has the Brigadier called for maximum effort this week?
      Seems like a lot of “Newbury Fruits” are working flat out to “stir up the Jocks” on here.

      Is something about to happen that we need to be distracted from?
      Is Bawjaws about to anounce that, as EU talks have broken down, we will be leaving without a deal at the end of the month?

      Wouldn’t put it past him, or Cummings.

    290. Sensibledave says:

      CBB

      … How rude. More like the king of the jungle devouring those that are pseudo intellectuals without the ability of independent thought, that relies upon nerdy, verbose nobody’s to try and make a pathetic argument for them … and constantly failing.

    291. Sensibledave says:

      Deer hill

      …. nope we report direct to M. She gets bored sometimes … and playful. The agent that can get CBB to cite 3 boring, irrelevant and useless articles written by someone no one has ever heard of and whose opinion is about as useful as a turd in a swimming pool … gets a Mars Bar.

      Our weekly incentive is based around getting ex NS Fans to write that she is a useless British Agent. I am winning that one.

    292. Joe says:

      @Liz g

      Im just writing what the figures say. If they suggest anything to you then thats not down to me

    293. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sensibledave
      Your bigoted arrogance is only eclipsed by your resistance to enlightenment. You are the very model of a Tory, I’ll give you that. 😉

    294. Sensibledave says:

      CBB

      Let’s have a competition where we cite each other’s quotes as examples of blatant bigotry.

      You start …

    295. Sensibledave says:

      CBB

      … the I’ll do 20 of your blatant examples!

    296. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sensibledave
      When you start respecting the principles of liberal constitutionalism instead of English Torydum’s interpretation of constitutional justice, then we can start deconstructing the more blatant characteristics of your cultural prejudices. OK?

      Constitutions and
      International Law

      https://www.idea.int/sites/default/files/publications/constitutions-and-international-law.pdf

    297. Liz g says:

      Joe @ 8.48
      Don’t be obtuse Joe,we both know perfectly well what you were trying to show,and so, I suspect, do the other’s!

    298. Sensibledave says:

      CBB

      … everyone will note that you have ducked my challenge.

      You are just a blow hard, pseudo intellectual empty vessel of a bigot.

    299. Joe says:

      @Liz g

      You’re another who has me figured out then? Id say pointing out crime stats from today that happen to show a demographic trend is less racist than thinking an entire race of people should get on their knees and apologise for the crimes of a few over 150 years ago. Like you did

    300. Alex says:

      Or, you know, SNP people are more likely to value local Scottish news?

    301. Joe says:

      But then I have difficulty knowing when you are playing at being obtuse for some vague argumentative end or are just being your naturally uninspiring self.

      Now stop this theatrical progressive pearl clutching and go and find someone to apologise to on behalf of all caucasians

    302. Joe says:

      Can you take the time to address this in light of current discussion. Its an easy task to bemuddle yourself with, depending on your veracity and elegance. Of course in modernity the left hand does not trifle with the menagerie

      https://humwp.ucsc.edu/cwh/bananas/Site/Modern%20History%20of%20the%20Banana.html

    303. Joe says:

      Last post for CBB

    304. Liz g says:

      Joe @ 10.37
      Your difficulty is no ma issue why don’t you answer the question?
      It’s ok to say you can’t and that you didn’t really understand what those numbers were suggesting.
      That if you did you were wrong!
      Or are you once again going to scramble for a reason to end the conversation?

    305. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sensibledave
      I’m not interested in your silly games, I’m concerned with defending my human rights from bigots like you.

      Literature Review
      The role of cultural practitioners in managing
      memories of disputed territories
      January 2020

      https://www.disterrmem.eu/s/Literature-Review-WP4_Cultural-practitioners_2_The-Relationship-between-Memory-Territoriality-and-Cu.pdf

      Joe
      The same applies to you.

    306. Sensibledave says:

      CBB

      its not a silly game … its about truth!

      You accuse me of bigotry and fascism without any evidence … whilst spouting yourpoisoness r***** S***.

      Would you like me start then?

      Perhaps Ill save it for another thread that has got some life in it.

    307. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sensibledave
      If you refuse to consider the evidence I supply you with, of course your ignorance and bigotry will remain pristine. Now, jog on.

    308. Joe says:

      @Liz g

      Im sorry liz but I find you to be someone with a very low ability to understand and reason. Im not even sure what you are getting at or where the comparison is. Why dont we save time and chalk all this down to me being a mindless racist while you are a masterclass of nimble wits and broad knowledge fighting for racial justice. 🙂

    309. Liz g says:

      Joe @ 12.17
      Your still avoiding giving an answer Joe

    310. WhoRattledYourCage says:

      Jesus Christ. Is there a thinking, critical, rational brain left in this bloody befuddled country? I am seriously beginning to think not.



    Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.




    ↑ Top