Cresting the rising tide
There’s been a running theme recently on Unionist social media.
It’s the claim that the No vote in 2014 was an anomaly – a rare victory of progressive, internationalist, inclusive politics over the anti-establishment, isolationist, separatist tone that won out in the EU referendum and now the election of Donald Trump.
This was the case back even before and just after the independence referendum, where the Yes movement was being compared to the far-right populist movements of England, France, and the Netherlands:
Of course, the alternative view is rather simpler – that perhaps the forces that won the EU referendum and 2016 presidency also won the independence referendum.
(WARNING: While I’m not going to reproduce any of the material or quotes from some of the individuals or groups listed below on the site, I will be including archived links. While I disagree with many of the views to the most profound degree, neither do I wish to pretend they do not exist: I also want to provide sources for my conclusion as to where they stand on any of the three campaigns. Keep this in mind before you click.)
Right to far-right: Gerry Gunster, (the US analyst who ran the Leave campaign); Arron Banks, (major UKIP donor & co-chair of Leave.EU); Donald Trump (US President-Elect); Nigel Farage (former UKIP leader); Andy Wigmore, (major UKIP donor & Director of Communications for Leave.eu); and Raheem Kassam, (UKIP leadership hopeful & Breitbart London Editor in Chief).
Let’s have a look at some of the individuals or organisations who were involved with, or supportive of, the winning side in the Scottish independence referendum, the EU referendum, and the Donald Trump presidential campaign.
Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE
Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE
Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE
Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE
Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE
Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE
Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE
Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE
Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE
Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE
Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE
Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE
Eddy Morrison (National Front/BNP/others)
Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump: SUPPORTIVE
Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE
Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE
Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE
Tommy Robinson (Former leader, EDL)
Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE
Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE
Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE
Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE
Scottish independence: NO
EU membership: LEAVE
Trump for President: SUPPORTIVE
Now, it’d be unfair to tarnish the anti-independence movement by association with the above organisations and individuals (not that such unfairness ever stopped No supporters from doing just that to Scottish independence supporters, of course).
After all, plenty of professed left-wing, socialist, anti-war folk supported No, Leave, and Trump – George Galloway being the most infamous example. Likewise, there are plenty of people who support only one or two of the above, and found themselves on the losing side of at least one referendum or election.
Of course not every No/Leave/Trump supporter is a racist, or fascist, any more than every Yes/Remain/Clinton supporter was uniquely saintly: the vast majority of people are reasonable, thinking, compassionate human beings who voted they way they did because they thought it was best for them, their family, and their future.
The key difference is that those people have no control over the direction of what happens next. We aren’t getting Super-Devo-Plus-Max, because the parties & individuals interested in such a settlement have no power or opportunity to deliver it. We’re not getting a “Lexit,” because the left-wing Leave advocates have no power in the UK or Scottish Governments. Even in his first few days as President Elect, the likelihood of a tempered Trump is dropping by the day.
(Which is not to say there are no anti-EU, pro-Trump individuals who also advocate Scottish independence: tons of Eurosceptics like Arron Banks, Paul Joseph Watson, and others seemed perfectly fine with it, even encouraging, when it was perceived as bad news for the EU or a perceived soft UK, or they just wanted rid of subsidy-junkie Scotland. On the other hand, I doubt Jim Sillars is a big Trump fan despite advocating a Leave vote.)
The people and organisations listed above are 3 for 3. They got every result they wanted. Look at the post-indyref UK Government: it sure isn’t the government Scotland or progressives in England, Wales, & Northern Ireland voted for. Look at the post-EUref UK cabinet: full of Brexiters and the most right-wing elements of the party. The US cabinet is the same story, amplified on an American scale.
Either Blair MacDougall, Ian Smart, and others really, truly believe that the movement for Scottish independence really is the same as the rhetoric which fuelled a Leave vote in the UK and Trump in the USA, or they don’t and just lie about it. And let’s be unflinchingly clear: even the “moderates” in the “mainstream” parties, not to mention the official No campaign, were not above using their dog-whistle language.
If Scotland wants to be independent they have the absolute right to do so. But I think nationalism is a mistake. And I am half Scots and feel it would divide me in half with a knife. The thought that my mother would suddenly be a foreigner would upset me very much.
– Tony Benn, 18th August 2012We’ve got friends and relations north and south of the border and we don’t want to make each other foreigners.
– Alistair Darling, 31st August 2012“I do not want my kids to be foreigners to each other” says Alan Cochrane. #bbbcqt #indyref
– Better Together’s official Twitter account, 18th October 2012We have the spectacle of a hard line nationalist saying ‘you will still be British after independence’. If you are no longer part of the UK how can you be British? Your friends in Wales, your family in England and your workmates from Northern Ireland will, effectively and overnight, become foreigners.
– Alistair Darling, 10th November 2012Alistair Darling will today accuse the SNP of attempting to ‘turn family into foreigners’ with its plan to break up Britain.
– The Times, 14th February 2013The Aberdeen schoolgirl said she and her friends were going to vote to remain part of the UK because they did not want their relatives in England to become foreigners.
– The Telegraph, April 2013The nature of my work means that I am based in London, like tens of thousands of Scots now facing the same prospect of becoming foreigners in our own land.
– Ian Taylor, 7th April 2013In simple terms, why make Sir Alex Ferguson a foreigner?
– Johann Lamont, May 2013My son, for example, who went to university in England, I think I’d be uncomfortable with the thought that he’s now a foreigner.
– Margaret Curran, 25th May 2013So says the lady whose policy would make all English people foreigners! Irony is obviously still allowed on Twitter
– George Foulkes, 25th May 2013Over 3 centuries we have lived together, worked together and frankly we’ve got together: getting married, having children, moving back and forward across our borders. Such is the fusion of our bloodlines that my surname goes back to the West Highlands and, by the way, I am as proud of my Scottish heritage as I am of my English or my Welsh heritage.
– David Cameron, 7th February 2014Do you wantonly break up a union of 307 years, splitting kith from kin and wounding a nation… They are NOT good reasons for the break-up of a strong, democratic nation in an uncertain world… Nor can we forget how fully the blood of us all is mixed in the families of our four nations, or how freely it has flowed, as one, in war. We are, in tradition and effect, one nation.
– Lt. Gen. Sir Norman Arthur, letter distributed by Better Together, March 2014A wonderful country and people in the grip of a narrow, divisive, arrogant, controlling and insular creed called Nationalism… My grandson in England, aged ten and quarter, looks utterly baffled and very sad at thought of his Grandparents being in danger of becoming foreigners. He keeps asking “Why Grandpa?”
– Dr Richard Marsh on Vote No Borders’ website, 21st June 2014How will independence affect the identity of Scots like me who feel both Scottish and British? With a home in Scotland can I no longer be British? Will I be stopped at the border every time that I travel between England and Scotland? What will happen to all those Scots who live and work south of the border? Will their place of birth still be their home, or will they become foreigners in their native land?
– The Earl of Glasgow, 24th June 2014I say to the noble Earl, Lord Glasgow, that yes, they will be made foreigners in their own country. Their own children and grandchildren will be disenfranchised of their birthright.
– Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, 24th June 2014I do not want my granddaughter to become a citizen in a foreignland, and she does not want her cousins—the children of my other son, who live in London—to be foreigners, with different passports.
– Lord Cormack, 24th June 2014As regards race, there are different races in the United Kingdom but the Scots do not make up a separate race. Otherwise, if we voted yes on the 18th, my brothers, my sister, my nephews and my nieces would not only become foreigners but would also be part of a different race, which is just unimaginable.
– Lord Maxton, 24th June 2014Like the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, I have two grandchildren living in Scotland with a Scottish mother and an English father, and two grandchildren living just outside Cambridge with a Scottish mother and an English father. One set of them will be foreigners. Whichever way we go, the family living in England are going to have foreign cousins and the family living in Scotland are going to have foreign cousins.
– Baroness Adams of Craigielea, 24th June 2014I don’t want my kids to feel like Scotland is going to become a foreign country.
– Ed Miliband, 4th July 2014However proud Scots may be of their heritage Scotland, by official definitions, is not a nation state. Moreover, the people of today’s Scotland are of the same mixed ethnicity as the rest of the UK… Not only do we share common and deeply integrated ethnicity in the UK, we share a universal culture and a common love of our different regional cultures.
– Tony Rush, 8th July 2014For sure, there must be change. We must have that, and we will, but not by tearing this country apart. We must stay as family, not become foreigners to each other.
– Harriet Harman, 10th September 2014Suddenly Scots who work next to us live next to us are our friends, our neighbours, our work mates suddenly become foreigners. Is that not an extraordinary proposition for a nation that had marched together?
– John Major, 10th September 2014But for me this is a question of the heart and the soul. I don’t want my parents to become foreigners to my children. I don’t want the example of tolerance, fairness and courage Britain has set to disappear. I don’t want our nation diminished.
– Michael Gove, 12th September 2014The process of separation and vilification is depressing to watch but familiar enough. Scottish nationalists are preparing a rarer trick, last seen in the dying days of Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia. They are trying to break up an existing multi-national state and turn neighbours into foreigners.
Hundreds of thousands of Scots meanwhile live in the rest of the UK and hundreds of thousands of English, Welsh and Irish people live in Scotland. They could become foreigners in their own country.
– Nick Cohen, 16th September 2014
Better Together preyed on fears of “kith and kin” becoming “foreigners”, appealed to shared “bloodlines” and “ethnicity”, and talked of the turmoil of “borders” and the loss of “our land”. Then their parties and papers continued it during the general election, with immigration mugs and endless poisonous headlines about refugees.
They used “foreign” as if it was a curse, an affliction, an undesirable trait – which is exactly what the far-right believes. And now they have the gall to act surprised at the results, and utterly fail to see the same forces at work across the ocean.
And even after the Brexit vote they haven’t learned a thing.
Twiterstorm (sic) tonight. Apparently many Nats don’t undersatand (sic) that “independence” would mean that their English realtives (sic) would be foreigners.
– Alex Gallagher, 6th October 2016enjoying SNP supporters on my timeline arguing that if we were independent, the English wouldn’t be foreigners
– The UK’s Greatest Economist, 6th October 2016SNP would turn English people living in Scotland into foreigners in their own country. Of course it’s uncomfortable for them
– Ruth Davidson’s favourite blogger, 15th October 2016
A No vote didn’t stop the forces who were victorious this year. In fact, in 2014 the No campaign rode that tide to victory – indeed, spurred it on with the evocation of its toxic language – because preserving the United Kingdom was worth any cost. Even if it meant turning a blind eye to the deluge looming darkly over the horizon.
Add the CPB and the CPGB.
Great Article Al.
Your very quick pointing out how they are trying to twist things…well done
Amazing post.
Smart et al may not be lying. They might simply fundamentally misunderstand the facts of the situation.
I’m being serious. It is incredible the amount of factual ignorance I have uncovered in talking to no voters.
Already read this excellent piece on Wilderness of Peace. Well done for publishing this on Wings. Thoroughly deserves to be aired widely. Well done Al.
What an excellent article. This really gets to the heart of what the BetterTogether, Leave and Trump campaigns had in common. Also how each one learned and how they fed off the other.
We have to use this for Indyref 2.
Spot on, Al. The No campaign was one of fear and misinformation. Let these britnat reactionaries carry on believing their own lies, it will make winning IndyRef2 that little bit easier. IndyRef2 will be won for Yes not because of fear but because of hope.
They seem to miss the point that Scots are already, and always have been, treated as foreigners, second class brits
Please feel free to make me a permanent foreigner if it breaks all ties with a Westminster who gave Scotland Food Banks, and put almost 1 in 4 Scottish Children into poverty
All this after stealing £3 Trillion worth of our oil money,
denying us access to information such as the McCrone Report, the Dunblane massacre, and a Brexit strategy,
I am not English, I do not wish to be British, I am Scottish.
Slandering YES Scots as Donald Trump voters aside, it just shows how tory MacDougal and SLab are. They still think they’re the established elite of Scotland with tory media dudes like Kenfarq are their enablers.
Socialist worker SLabour. Bliar MacDougal thinks he’s a member of the British ruling elite but he kept it very quiet running and developing Project Fear 2014.
And is Kenfarq a member of the UKOK elite too? more of a Murdoch running dog lackey really, a henchman.
What an excellent article. The better together campaign were the ones who helped fuel a lot of this that is now happening. Their cheap rhetoric, which they felt was a price worth paying, demonised ‘foreigners’.
And now we are where we are today. Those people, Brown, darling, the whole shabby bunch have an awful lot to answer for. Of course the destruction of Scotland at England’s Tory hands won’t affect them. The damage already being caused by brexit, will pass them by. They’re all doing just fine, with their ermine clad pensions, and after dinnner speech fees.
Champagne ‘socialists’, the whole damn lot.
As for Trump and his neo-fascist freak show, god help us all.
Al Harron wrote:
“Better Together preyed on fears….”
Blair McDougall (Head Poodle of Better Together) suggested:
“Scotland might have voted for independence in last week’s referendum if his campaign had made a positive case for the union, rather than scaremongering about economic risks.”
Source: The Wee Black Book (p65).
“We Would Have Struggled To Win Without Scaremongering”
(Blair McDougall in BuzzFeedNEWS)
Good job Al, this’ll help keep the wrath warm…
Priceless documentary evidence, and really quite shocking to see it gathered together.
McDougall, Smart, Darling and the rest of them have an awful lot to answer for.
Me:-
Yes
Remain
The internal affairs of other countries are their own business.
Read this on Al’s site but it deserves wider readership so really pleased it’s been reproduced on WoS.
Thanks Al for all your hard work in producing this. It’s amazing what half educated tenement Scots can do when they put their minds to it 🙂
Vote No was primarily right wing and reactionary. It had the support of Labour in Scotland but the money backing them was Conservative. There was nothing progressive or internationalist about the tone of their arguments. The UKOK campaign fed straight into the Leave campaign…as horrified as people like Brown might be about that in retrospect.
Good for you pointing out the beginnings of more potential deceit and lies by spurious association.
For me we all in Scotland should continue to act and believe we are independent.
We should support Scottish Gov in leading the way in foreign negotiating in relation to Scottish matters or matters affecting Scotland.
Support for other independent organisations by more of us will give us knowledge and confidence to challenge such nonsense.
Affiliation by more of us with true free press and media like your blog will inform us.
While being basically true this disregards the fact that the English are already foreigners in Scotland. If you doubt it you could only do so from the position of not being English. Being English with a Scottish accent in Scotland means I hear all the anti-English banter while people think they are among only “their own” – hearing other people referred to as “that English c*nt” for example.
Will the members, activists of Slab and the LibDems still campaign and support them?
Great work and research by Al.
I think the collected comments about independence causing our neighbours being ‘foreign’ just looks like collective stupidity, but it must have played well for some at least.
Just as an aside, I can’t quite believe how the media seems to have stepped up providing a platform for the more disgusting elements of UKIP.
Although nothing should surprise us anymore when Marr gave Le Pen a platform on Remembrance Sunday. His snivelling excuses for it, were even more of an affront.
2014, UKOK elitist Blair, almost certainly cooked up
“A No vote would lead to faster, fairer, safer and better change and that draft legislation for new powers for…”
Under UKOK elitists like ours, its certainly been faster change, with no new powers, and we’re no longer European citizens. None of that matters to elites like these guys though.
Ali
Sorry about that. Dont you tell folk your are English so you shame them into apologising or do you prefer to be a mole ?
A number of my family are Scots with English accents (its an armed forces thing).
The stories they tell. They are too conditioned to just smile at the comments made about the Jocks.
Mind you I got called a racist by an English neighbour during Indy ref1 for supporting indyref1. Shouted at the top of her voice too at the polling station until she was told off by 2 English folk who were Indy supporters.She called them ("Tractor" - Ed)s instead.
Classic elitist Blair tweet? holding back the Scottish barbarian at the UKOK elite gate, me:D
Better Together ? @UK_Together
What is process for removing our EU citizenship? Voting yes. #scotdecides
9:21 PM – 2 Sep 2014
Funny. I have family who are Americans and they are no less family than my family in Scotland or my South African born cousins, one of whom live in England now or even my own brother who now lives and works to a New Zealander who herself is an English immigrant to New Zealand.
Family is more than a border or a nation and it friendship is the same.
My girlfriend is English and we both live in Wales and this doesn’t make me less Scottish or her less English, although she support Wales anytime they are playing rugby against anyone but England but then she has lived here for many years.
@Ali,
Being called a c*#t is Scotland is almost a compliment. I have had mates say that to me many times along with many other expletives.. Hard to understand I know,but true.
The above passage is what happens when you forget to read back what you posted. Apologies for the diabolic English.
I meant to say my brother lives and works in New Zealand and is married to a New Zealander who’s family emigrated from England to New Zealand. Also I don’t think she sees her family in England as foreigners…just family.
@ Ali 7.14
Aye?
Did you address the racism you heard? You can call folk a c#nt without bringing their origins into the matter.
Easy enough to put them right.
Ali.
I know a lot of foreigners, a lot of them are English, I rather like them. It’s the LITTLE f*****g Englanders I don’t like.
Ali,
“Being English with a Scottish accent in Scotland means I hear all the anti-English banter while people think they are among only “their own” – hearing other people referred to as “that English c*nt” for example.”
I guess the Scots developed this mentality after being sold to England and remaining colonised and second class citizens for more than three hundred years.
Like the English developed the mentality that Scots are scroungers living on English money.
Totally deplorable.
Oh!
And also, I’m English.
@Ali
C#*t is just Scots for person.
Oh!
And I’m English.
‘Being English with a Scottish accent in Scotland means I hear all the anti-English banter while people think they are among only “their own”
Let’s replace English with Scottish/Welsh/American/Indian/Pakistani/Romanian/any other nationality ye can think of and let’s replace Scotland with England/Wesh/American/Indian/Pakistan/Romanian/any other nationality ye can think of.
Now let’s see if that way of speaking about other nationalities is more a ‘universal’ ‘human’ tendency to utilise the ‘defininning’ ”different from ‘us’ characteristic (this also of course extends to skin colour/gender/sexual orientation et al), in ‘casual but accepted’ forms of everyday ‘bigoted’ ‘racist’ ‘sexist’ conversational ‘norms’ (or ‘banter’ as you yourself referred to it) existent is all Nations?
We’re ‘aw’ foreigners outwith our ‘local’ geographical/cultural reference bases.
Whit’s yer point? That at the heart of it Scotland is somehow ‘intrinsically’ ‘anti-English’?
Yer ontae plumbs wi that ‘insinuation’. Nae mair the case than at the heart of it England is somehow ‘intrinsically’ ‘anti-Scottish’ because someone from England refers amongst their ‘ain’ tae ‘that Scottish cunt’.
Excellent article.
[…] Wings Over Scotland Cresting the rising tide There’s been a running theme recently on Unionist social media. It’s the claim […]
@Ali
This might be a revelation but there are unpleasant people everywhere. My husband in the Oil business heard all sorts about Scottish people but he has a neutral accent so they could not place hime. He was supposed to laugh along. He would put people right and the reactions varied. Some were embarrassed, some were even more hostile.. He never tarred every English person or every American with the same brush.
As far as calling people c*nts – well everybody is a c*nt in Scotland. Big c*nts, wee c*nts, red-haired c*nts, Edinburgh c*nts…
That was therapeutic.
like Brian McGrath my brother lives in NZ, he is married to a New Zealander, they have a son and daughter, Brian is my brother, Jane is my sister in-law, Emma is my niece and James is my nephew, I look upon them as FAMILY not Foreigners, these yoons should be given laxatives to ensure the shite comes out the correct end.
Syd
excellent piece and deserves a wider audience .
Will this information be covered or refered to by our media NOPE .
Lets face it a lot of our fellow countrymen are just plain stupid , and probably believe the VOW even now was delivered , you can see it when their eyes glaze over if the subject is raised then its fingers in the ears time it’s like talking to a wall , depressing but i suppose if people on wings and other sites didn’t care who would ? .
Onwards and Upwards as they say .
OT
Just received an E-mail from Douglas Ross, MSP, regarding the tenant farmer family on Arran currently being evicted.
It was so pathetic, a 99.9% attempt to gain political points. Little or nothing being done other than offer his sympathy & how he is trying his hardest to get things changed!
He refers to the family in Arran as “THE FAMILY(IES) IN ARRAN”, not by name.
PS. He is a football referee. When he books a player, does he take his name, no, he takes his number. What number has he given the Arran family?
This island was known as Britain long before the English appeared on the scene. They do not have a monopoly on the term British.
so if Maggs Currans son moved to France,Ireland,NZ,USA
she would
“be uncomfortable with the thought that he’s now a foreigner”.
bollocks.
Makes me quite angry reading all that.
Independence for me was all about democracy and responsibility not putting up borders and retracting into a wee Brigadoon bubble of ethnic ‘Scottishness’ because that place does not exist.
Grumpy and wee bit sad.
Rock
‘I guess the Scots developed this mentality after being sold to England and remaining colonised and second class citizens for more than three hundred years.’
Indeed,though the dominant Scots mentality is still unfortunately the cringe whereby most pander to England and the English at the expense of their own country.
Ali and his kinsmen are seen as demigods by those Scots.
Ali
Believe me, being English born with a Scots accent I have in the past called out some English c**t.
And Scottish, and American and Irish! Don’t take it personally…
I live in Denmark and I don’t consider people in the rest of Scandinavia as “real” foreigners.
The slur was first used in 1704 and became common currency.
Blair MacDougall and the Fear Campaign resurrected it.
See the paragraph highlighted in red: link to wp.me
Just have a look at the folk celebrating in George Square to see who ‘won’ the referendum.
I am English born, lived in Scotland for 50+ years. Moved to Scotland in my teens.
The only place I feel I am a foreigner is in England. In Scotland I am home, anywhere else apart from England, I am a welcomed visitor.
Brit mentality and attitude to Scotland is like the Russian one toward Ukraine: you’re no different, you’re part of us; but having said that, you’re a backward, village idiot type version of us. Anyway, you shouldn’t have your own country because people in your country who think like us should run it.
By the way, reading those nationalistic comments about blood and family makes my blood boil. So anyone in Scotland who doesn’t have family ties to England, Wales, or Northern Ireland, but does to Pakistan, France, Canada, or basically anywhere outside the UK, should read that as a ‘we’re not talking to you, just the properly racially developed, loyal people, not the mongrel types who mixed with foreigners’ I’m glad they’re not talking to me. You can keep your Brit exceptionalist inbred family.
Too many, think they do us a favour, by telling us what to do.
Heaven forbid should we have to make difficult decisions for ourselves.
We need to ACT INDEPENDENTLY on their mistakes, as lessons are already learned.
Great work Al that is a keeper going right into my files for future laying the smackdown on dumb ass yoons 🙂
Please do not reply to the troll guys its a deliberate attempt to railroad the thread in another direction.
link to caltonjock.com
I never fell for all that your families will be foreigners stuff,a lot of Scots have family abroad. Just think of the border changes in Europe alone over the last century,even over just the last few decades. It was all rubbish then,and it is now.
So they sowed the wind but won’t take the blame as the rest of us are left to reap their whirlwind.
Unfortunately for them most sensible and reasonable informed folk can joint the dots between the ‘Brexit’ and ‘Trump’ campaigns.
Especially with Faradge (no typo) trying to kiss arse for a new job from the Republican Party for when he stops collecting his MEP wage.
Thanks to this article from Al they can now join the dot between those two and the Right wing backers and supporters of ‘Better Together’.
Thank you, Al Harron, for this excellent, well-researched piece. I saw on Twitter that you even stumped Rev Stu to it! 😀
The past few years have been a rollercoaster of previously “unthinkable” political outcomes. The nasty right-wingers always win and Scotland’s 1st indyref was no exception.
What’s happening to our world?!
The election that bucked the trend is, of course, the UK GE in 2015, with LabLibTory all but wiped out in Scotland (under the unionist-preferred FPTP system) and Scotland finally represented by MPs with Scotland’s interest at heart. But UK media shills never mention that.
I just hope Scotland’s 2nd indyref will also buck the trend and be a win for decent people who’re worried, even horrified, about the rise of fascism in the UK (and the USA and France and other countries).
Come on, we have to fight back! Denigrated as lefty-greenies or “Scot-nazis” or whatever, but we’re the nice people here. We have to make our voice heard. We’ve got to take our message to the grassroots and talk to and listen to ordinary people, reassure them and not alienate former NO voters by calling them “yoons” or “Britnat zoomers” or whatever. Be a truly inclusive movement for self-determination.
I never thought back in 2011 or 2012 that things would turn out quite this way. It’s like we’re gone through the looking-glass and it’s a parallel universe. Only, we’re in the parallel universe and can’t get back to the real universe and slowly realise the parallel universe is the real universe…
Funnily enough where I come from (Strathearn) cunt is a term of endearment on occasion. Equally funny when I was growing up was that all the old timers stated that the Scots were mongrels and that there was no such thing as a Scottish race. I grew up to be an archaeologist and they were/are right. And if it wasn’t for foreigners I truly believe we would live such impoverished lives, after all like most I’m a bit partial to a curry, kebab, burger and chips and a roast beef lunch now and again. But then again I’m not a pig ignorant Unionist (apologies to pigs of course).
We’re all foreigners to somebody. Saying that, I feel like a foreigner in my own country of Scotland whenever I hear the bbc on the radio.
As it happens, I have relatives who are “foreigners”, ie. citizens (by birth) of states other than the UK. I also have English relatives. They are all family, and I love them all dearly and equally. On independence, the English ones could presumably become Scottish if they wanted to. But I wouldn’t love them any differently either way.
As the many quotations above reveal, which we all already well knew, this blut und bodem stuff was all on the BT side of the argument. The Yes campaign was as far away from this vile Trump/Farage-style “deport the aliens” rhetoric as it was possible to get. No-one suggested for a moment that English people living in Scotland would be made to take a hike (unlike what’s sometimes happening with EU citizens in England right now).
So this “rising tide” talk is mendacious or sadly self-deluded guff. Slanderous, even. Whistling in the dark. They probably sense though that there really is a tide rising, the inexorable one coming with indyref2 to finally wash them and their lies away.
ah, I see several of you Wings BTL commenters have raised the “foreigner” thing.
The way Britnats talk about it, being “foreign” is a BAD, BAD thing. Uhm… Isn’t that kind of fascist?
Yeah, Nordics don’t consider each other “foreign”, just degrees of the same. Well, Finns are a bit weird and different but still part of the family. Yeah, we’ve got our fierce rivalries (Finland and Sweden ice hockey is one of the big ones) but we don’t really actually hate each other.
To us, “foreign” countries are Germany, France, England… rest of the world. It’s not bad to be foreign. It’s interesting and exciting. We’re all foreigners outside our own country. Except the English, who, uniquely, are “ex-pats” and not foreigners or – gasp – immigrants – in a foreign country.
Go figure.
On the subject of foreigness.
The delusion of the Unionists and later of the Brexiteers is that foreigness is defined solely by passports. I have relatives on both sides of my family with passports different from those of mine. I have never thought of them as being foreigners.
As a Scot living abroad, I feel that this year even more than last England has become a place foreign to me. I don’t understand it any longer. A shared passport is of no consequence. Germany is a place far less foreign, as it’s ideas and political discourse are more inclusive that those of rUK. I just hope that Scotland can remain my home, and is not eventually engulfed by the same insanity that has befallen England.
O/T Super National front page to-morrow. Unionist Labour Party supporters must see it.
link to twitter.com
@Effijy says: 15 November, 2016 at 6:46 pm:
” … I am not English, I do not wish to be British, I am Scottish.”
So, Effijy, when we have become independent how do you propose we should move Scotland out of Britain or even out of Great Britain?
I’m British and I always will be as I live in Britain and I’m happy to do so. What I am that I do not want to be is in the United Kingdom. Furthermore, I do not want to leave the United Kingdom I want to end the United Kingdom as without Scotland there can be no united Kingdom.
Wales ceased to be a Kingdom in 1284 by the Statute of Rhuddlan after the Kingdom of England defeated the last native born Prince of Wales and claimed Wales under the laws of Divine Right of Kings and Ireland ceased to be a kingdom in 1542 under the Crown of Ireland Act after the Kingdom of England defeated the Irish King in Battle and annexed Ireland.
So there simply cannot be a United Kingdom with its only kingdom being the three country Kingdom of England.
The Status Quo Ante on Scottish independence is to return to the status on the last day of March 1707 when there was only two Kingdoms. Then, on 1 May 1707 there was a united Kingdom formed by the Treaty of Union.
I resent these Unionist attempting to rob me of my Britishness. By the way I am also a European and have been even before the United Kingdom, (Not Britain), became a member of the EC and then the EU.
The fact is Britain will always be part of Europe even when England leaves the EU. Britain has never been a member state of the EU. The member state is The United Kingdom and parts of Britain have never been members of the EU.
Now are you beginning to get why I keep harping on about the use of the correct terms? What would be a real skelp in the kisser for the Yoons is if every time they used the wrong term they were corrected and made to apologise. Think how they would lose face in the eyes of the World?
Strangely the so called Queen of Britain does not exist any more than the Parliament of Britain.
Great article Al. However, the problem as I see it is simply this–those on the Union side of this constitutional debate will simply never see or agree with ANY of what you place in front of them. They just won’t. They just don’t have the eyes to see beyond their own prejudices. They will continue to believe (and I mean they TRULY BELIEVE) that those of us who seek self-governance for Scotland and who wish to keep our position beside our EU friends are the fascists and isolationists.
It is so wrong and so totally fucked up and only those who can look beyond the sick press and BBC in this country will ever be able to discern the truth of the situation.
But a big thanks for shining a light and showing the way. I just hope come IndyRef#2 that our European friends here in Scotland who were terrorised into voting NO by the Better Together fascists who claimed that they would be kicked out of an Indy Scotland will now see the light and where the REAL threat to their future lies. It was NEVER with Indy Scotland but was ALWAYS with an inward-looking, anti-EU fascist England.
You would think that there would be a name for all those quoted by Al expressing fears such as their own children or other extended family becoming foreign in event of Scottish Independence.
There is a name for this of course. Xenophobia.
Xenophobia is derived from the Greek word ‘Xenos’ meaning “foreigner or stranger” and Phobos which means ‘morbid fear’. Xenophobia is the irrational sensation of fear experienced about a person or a group of persons as well as situations that are perceived as strange or foreign.
Funny old world innit.
More Misreporting Scotland from the BBC on Holyrood vote.
BBC fail to mention that Labour abstained while Lib Dems and Tories voted against the substantive SNP motion, which did not mention Indy Ref2, and was supported by the Greens..
Thanks again, all. I figure braving all these horrendous websites was well worth it!
I had CBP/SPGB on the anti-indy/anti-EU side, but didn’t know their stance on Trump.
As far as I’m aware, “foreign/foreigner” is a neutral term: it’s the context and intent that matters. When you say “I wouldn’t want my family to become foreigners,” it implies being foreign is something undesireable.
It was really tough to write. It’s not good for the soul going onto far-right, white supremacist, counter-jihadist websites when they are the antithesis of everything you believe in, and I even had to take a few breaks. But I think stuff like this is important, because just ignoring it lets it fester in the dark.
I agree in principle, unfortunately nuclear warheads from Mr Trump’s country, which require approval from said country in order to fire, are sailing past my window.
I know what it feels like to have people talking about you when they think their among “their own”: it’s upsetting and it’s completely unacceptable, be it anti-English “banter” in Scotland, or anti-Scottish “banter” in England. As I said above, most people are reasonable, compassionate human beings, but the people in power have to exercise justice & fairness – because doing the right thing is always hard work.
They’re the Guernsey Bobbies the Reverend alluded to on Remembrance Sunday: they’ll go along with anything the powerful and influential do, because they’re terrified of the repercussions. So we’ll keep seeing the Farages, le Pens, Kassams, and others because they’re pally with the president-elect of the US, and don’t want to upset him.
Amazing, thanks!
And we will, and we are. I know a lot of people gave the First Minister some criticism for backing Clinton, & I respect that people have issues with her. However, what distinguishes the FM from others is she isn’t going to let Trump’s election change her position. Unlike the invertebrate gastropods who are crawling to Trump & his preening cronies, the FM is sticking to her words – and she has to. The “moderates” of the UK will take on a tone of reconciliation, of just waiting to see what the President Elect does – and then presenting completely unacceptable “compromises.”
Trump: “All people called Joe shall have both legs cut off.”
Sane people: “No, leave the Joes alone, no leg amputation!”
Moderates: “How about we cut off *one* of their legs?”
It can seem like that, I know – but I’ve *seen* it happen. You never know what will cause that little lightbulb moment in someone who’s thought a certain way all their life, suddenly starting to reconsider everything. And it’s vital information to keep on hand in case someone undecided or a soft-No has worries about independence from that perspective.
Sinky says at 9:53 pm
O/T Super National front page to-morrow. Unionist Labour Party supporters must see it.
link to twitter.com
I am sure the BBC / Sky newspaper reviews will include this… not.
‘Either Blair MacDougall, Ian Smart, and others really, truly believe that the movement for Scottish independence really is the same as the rhetoric which fuelled a Leave vote in the UK and Trump in the USA, or they don’t and just lie about it.’
If they are not liars then they are extremely stupid!
lumilumi @ 21:38,
I believe that the Nordic countries also have their mutual pet hates and jokey stereotypes. We here eg. may think of the Danes as being broody and gloomy (à la Hamlet) but apparently within the Nordic countries they are regarded as being the most cheery and fun-loving!
However, you all have the estimable advantage of having full autonomy, so you are able to freely choose how much you are prepared to share between yourselves. If only Scotland were in the same happy position!
I see this strange alignment as a result of the different kind of nationalisms temporarily lining up – let me explain:
so Brit/English nationalism is supremacist – beggar-my-neighbour style one-upmanship. So English nats are pro Brexit and against Scots/Welsh/Irish indy.
Scots nats are fraternal/internationalist in outlook, want to join the club of nations. Similar to Irish nationalism. Don’t want to invade anyone etc.
Trump, if he’s an American nat, I would see as more like a Scots nat. He already said he wants to get out of other countries and keep to himself. Seems to care about all the people in America – despite what the media claims.
It’s a massive mistake by Alex/Nicola making an enemy of Trump. Big blind spot in SNP at moment. Also the point about Indyref I being too early is correct.
@ Proud Cybernat, above
But surely the trick is not to convince the unconvinceabls, the true blue unionists. They’ll never be turned.
The trick is to convince the soft no’s. Those who kind of liked the idea of indy but still voted NO for the “safe” option, in hope of a better deal (the Vow). They should know better by now. Unless they’re reliant on the BBC and the MSM for their news.
It is also an unfruitful and stupid strategy to tell former NO voters that they’re stupid and being duped (which they are) by the BBC and the MSM. Hey, these people might think they’re “politically aware”, telling them they’re stupid or just propaganda chumps won’t go down well. You’ve got to give them something so that they can preserve their personal pride and dignity, come to their own conclusion on the side of indy.
You’ll never win any former NO voters to the YES side by yelling at them and telling them how stupid they were.
Oh, and I have no patience for pro-indy groups criticising the SNP. They’re falling for the classic British imperialist trap: divide and rule. Unless ALL indy-minded people get behind the SNP, there won’t be indy. Conversations and debates of what indy Scotland should be like are kind of futile unless you help to ensure indy happens in the first place.
After indy, go for your own goals. The SNP will probably split along left-right lines. But it’s still the Scots Parliament, way nearer to Scots’ concerns and wishes than the Westminster parliament.
One of the things that struck me during the referendum was that an independent Scotland was going to be consigned to a special level of foreign-ness by rUK – even more foreign than those ‘foreign Johnnies’ on the Continent.
This was nowhere more obvious than the issue of building complex warships and the constant best from BT that the UK or rUK as it would be, did not get complex warships built in foreign shipyards thus no more orders for the Clyde.
That might have been true-ish but it does not stop foreign companies being involved in building quite important parts of these complex ships, very important parts such as the electrics for example. Thales UK is part of the Thales Group which is a French company and Thales UK has the contract for the electrics on the new carriers.
As I said, a really special level of foreign-ness for Indy Scotland
All this nonsense about the word foreigner being a bad thing again
When I lived in Spain I was a foreigner my documents said so (extranero) and it didn’t bother me, because I was a foreigner, so what!
If a Spaniard goes into France he’s still Spanish even if he lives there but I’ll tell you what he doesn’t do, he doesn’t lay claim to that country just because it happens to be on the same land mass as his or because he’s a “European” and feels he has some entitlement to own it, our own Christian Allard is a Frenchman who lives in Scotland and proud of who he is
They’re quite well mannered those nasty European foreigners
I think there are some folk becoming over sensitive again
and in the end, you own nothing you just get a wee shotty
Unless you’re an arrogant imperialist who’s gonnae come round my house and stick a flag I don’t want in my garden and claim it from me because I’m just an ignorant tenement dwelling half educated savage who’d rather spend my pound in Strathclyde and not in Croyden I’ve got no problem with you (see Boris would get it stuck on him) not because he’s English, because he’s an Arse who tells me I have no rights
Folk just need to be who they are and stop worrying about it, a change in a countries constitution won’t turn anybody purple overnight your kids’ll still go to school and your shoes’ll still fit the same as yesterday
so if they are calling yes far right why didnt the tory ukip support yes, I forgot you look at the headline and dont put your brain into gear. Should we boycot J K’s latest film loss of box office takings might stop her sounding off.
Kin is kin, the way unionists go on about foreigners says more about the state of main stream UK politics than it does about self determination.
My wife’s a foreigner.
I’ll miss her when Blair McDougall signs her extradition order.
Oh dear, so easily do they slip into crypto fascism.
The usual tossery from the Unionist English Nationalists and their Uncle Tom retainers.
My wife and eldest son actually are foreigners in that they hold different passports from my youngest son and I. It’s never been an issue until Brexit as we all have EU passports.
Thanks to Club Fuckmuppet, fronted by Gove/Farage/Johnson el al. and staffed by the ("Tractor" - Ed)ous Unionist Parties of Caledonia, it now seriously looks like my family truly will be split down the middle.
@Brian McGrath
I’m Scots born, English parents, eldest sister born Manchester, the other 3 of us Ayrshire. Emigrated to NZ aged 6 in ’72. Met and married an English girl in NZ, 2 kids born in NZ. Our families in NZ and Australia. One kid here in Scotland, one back in NZ, engaged to a Kiwi with Maori ancestry (Ngai Tahu).
People have trouble placing my accent: childhood Scots overlaid by NZ, educated, English accents at home. Very occasionally and never in a challenging manner when on the campaign trail my origins were questioned. Born Scotland, raised NZ ALWAYS accepted, no problem. Never been abused, meanest areas of Dundee etc.
If there has been anti English expressions in the past it could have something to do with the fact that most English moved up here for usually well paid jobs – think of the oil industry and academia. It isn’t exactly polish fruit picking or Latvian cleaning jobs is it?
A couple of English friends said to me they felt so welcome by the tone of the indyref they voted yes. As for myself – after brexit and trump I’ve applied for my Irish passport. That UK one feels shoddy now. Will still be door knocking and delivering leaflets though. Get yourself fit folks. May isn’t far away
Outstanding!
Murdo Fraser on the telly the nicht.You could see him panicking at the very thought of indyref2.And little wonder.Last time round No shipped a third of their support.
It’s very ironic all that foreigner shite above when I now actually feel IAM a foreigner in my own land getting a unionist agenda rammed down my throat 24:7 on all media platforms plus having to watch a Foreign country to me anyway playing football live on one of our main stations regularly. What other supposed nation would put up with that?
Great work Taranaich- dismantling a narrative some yoons were getting comfortable with.
Am gloomy after my IPSO appeal has been rejected on the Express’ make-believe “widespread outbreaks of violence”- some guy in london who watched something about the indyref on the news trying to tell me black is white. IPSO is lower than the Express- walking behind the cart with a shovel
It is the US and UK which are exceptionalists. Pathetic projection by McJonah.
But to use a Scottish expression, their bum is weel an’ truly oot the windae.
For me it throws into doubt again that our vote was kosher which I’ve never believed the outcome anyway. Two major anti-establishment votes since 2014 yet with our rebellious DNA we voted for the status quo? Nope. I don’t buy it.
Scottish and English are two very different worlds.
Scots in the main are left of centre and the English in the main are right wing and stretching further in the opposite direction to us.
People make Glasgow, and they make Scotland.
If someone needs help up here, they tend to get it.
Ask for some help in London, there is a slim chance of you making eye contact.
Whenever I see the results of a UK Fund Raiser, Scots are
the most generous, despite having lower incomes.
These give no reasons to dislike the English, they can take their country which ever way the like, but I do detest Westminster for dragging my country in a direction that is not of our choosing.
I’m also sick of every England Football Match being televised in Scotland, when we only get to see Scotland,
if they are playing England.
Just Folding my Spain Shirt away and putting it on top of my Slovakia Strip, which sits on my Slovenia Kit.
But may the team with a population and investment greater than every other team in their group, fair well?
To walk upon England’s Greedy unpleasant land.
I read this superb article earlier over on Al’s own site and completely agree with Al and his conclusions.
Well worth reading twice.:)
Right now the bad guys, and I do mean bad guys in the most literal sense, are three for three. I’d say its about time that winning streak was brought to a crashing halt.
BBC still describing the comfortable victory for the SNP in Parliament today as a “division ” in the Scottish Parliament while STV simply say it was a victory for the SNP.
Equally funny when I was growing up was that all the old timers stated that the Scots were mongrels and that there was no such thing as a Scottish race. I grew up to be an archaeologist and they were/are right.”
According to latest genetic research, they were/are wrong.
link to wellcome.ac.uk
Independent newspaper reports it thusly,
“One of the most intriguing signatures seen in the genetics of present-day English is the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons from southern Denmark and northern Germany after the end of Roman rule in 410AD. The DNA samples showed this migration involved intermarriage with the Romano-British Celts rather than wholesale ethnic cleansing, as some historians have suggested.
“The results give an answer to the question we had never previously thought we would be able to ask about the degree of British survival after the collapse of Roman Britain and the coming of the Saxons,” said Professor Mark Robinson, an archaeologist at Oxford University.
“This has allowed us to see what has happened. The established genetic makeup of the British Isles today is reflecting events that took place 1400 years ago,” Professor Robinson said.
Other major events in history, such as the Roman invasion and occupation between 43AD and 410AD, the large-scale invasion by the Viking Danes in 865AD and the subsequent establishment of Danelaw, as well as the Norman invasion of 1066, cannot be seen in the genetic profiles of Britons today.”
So the biggest change in the British archipelago since the last ice age was the arrival of the Angle and Saxon tribes. All the others cannot be seen, in your genes.
Otherwise genetically, we’re far from mongrels, although maybe not Crufts yet.
Scotland is an extremely distinct nation from England. Its a nation forged in 400 year war with the Roman Empire and one of the oldest nations in the world. What our ancestors would make of slobs like MacD and Kenfarq, is anyone’s guess.
There’s also tons of new archaeology going on that shows Scotland had many other distinct and differing things that had a huge impact on the why and how of Hadrians Wall too.
Some mongrels. Although you want to hear our chums in the south yelp, if any of the above ever crops up. Its England, England, England, all the way. Although they do like Romano Britain, it chimes with that grand old rule Britannia thingee, maybe.
We should sink this “our English market is worth four times our European market” nonsense because it includes lots of Scots goods passing through England before being exported from English ports.
But more to the point is the fact that they seem to imagine if we are independent from England we wont be buying Heinz soups and Mars Bars anymore as there will be a hard border (whatever that means). What infantile pish. By the same nonsense we wouldn’t be trading with Switzerland for Toblerone or buying Mazda cars and we wouldn’t be able to get Guinness
Thicko Murdo Fraser could only sputter out Fluffy Mundells words tonight in the face of Stephen Gethins answers and it looked like a wee sneaky “I’m John McKay” colluded with Stephen in making Murdo squirm and squeek “No Surrender No Referendum” poor soul it’s all he had left to dribble out of his lying rotten face
BTW Did Murdo get in on the list or did anybody actually vote for him
When I thought about the Holyrood vote today it struck me that most of the people who voted against Scotland were not actually elected
It’s no wonder the opposition sits in their seats smirking when they earn big chunks of dosh for not doing actually anything except smirking at their luck of free money
I live in England and it definitely feels like a foreign country. I’ve visited France, Italy, and Holland, and they seemed like foreign countries too. Weirdly it doesn’t feel like a big deal.
Dr Jim @ 00:47,
List MSPs were all elected, just from a wider catchment area than non-list MSPs. AMS is not my favourite electoral system by any means, not least because it invites invidious comparisons, jibes of “2nd class MSPs”, etc., etc., but ultimately they are all there because enough people voted in support of their position.
Don’t forget, most SNP MSPs used to be list members themselves not so very long ago. A few still are.
Just because some list MSP talks utter pish doesn’t make him/her a non-person. (Much though we might wish it.) The real answer is to convince more voters not to support their rubbish politics the very next chance they get. (Like next May, for example.)
Dave McEwan Hill at 12:27
It’s not just our goods getting re-exported through English outlets that get counted in this ‘four times’ market. Last week I was looking at prices of chickens in M&S and it occurred to me that these chickens, clearly labeled with their farm of origin in Perthshire, would be counted as an export from Scotland to England since M&S’s head office is down there somewhere when in fact they had only been ‘exported’ from Perthshire to Partick.
Does anyone know of a central source of information for trade between Scotland and England? Is it all extrapolated from individual firms’ returns using similar methodology as the GERS numbers or is it all just numbers invented by Murdo Fraser, Jackie Baillie, the BBC, etc.?
The biggest lie is that England, despite being in trade deficit with every other country in Europe, is, if you believe it, in trade surplus with Scotland. Despie Scotland being at the top of the resource to population ratio in Europe.
Be warned. Internal domestic UK accountancy can be fiddled.
But would they?
I guess we all know the answer to that.
The Britnat obsession about blue-covered passports just leaves me scraching my head.
My first passports were blue-covered as well. Only after my country joined the EU (1995) the cover became maroon. Even after that, there’s always been the Finnish Coat of Arms on the cover. A lion rampant facing right (west) standing on an eastern-style (Russian) scimitar/cureved sword, wielding a western-style straight sword, surrounded by all the roses of all the Finnish provinces. It says “Euroopan unioni/Europeiska unionen—- SUOMI : FINLAND.
It is one of the best passports because if you flip through the pages, you’ll se an “animation” of a gangly elk running. The “off-sides” are full of red squirrels, pine martens, volwerines, mountain hares, swans, woodpeckers, brown bears, wolves, hedgehogs, frogs, all kinds of typically Finnish animals. The back cover is embossed with several special snowflakes. The EU didn’t order us to make our passports boring and official, so we made them quirky and fun.
Next year, you’ll even be able to get the 100-year special edition Finnish passport. Full of the animals (and rumor says the gangling elk will be replaced by a trotting reindeer) and with some quotes from important Finnish writers. The back cover embossed with a “Finland 100 years” logo. All within EU/Shengen rules.
I am an Earthman who lives in Scotland.I have children grandchildren and
assorted relatives living in different parts of our Earth.
There can be no such entities as Foreigners.
Simples 🙂
Peace Always
Baaaad Blair McD: responsible actor or dangerously ignorant ideolog? Of course, the other alternative is he is a bit of a neo-fascist.
The World Today: Imagined Communities – On British Nationalism
link to youtube.com
@BlairMcDougall
Which of us is the reactionery nationalist?
WANK
link to un.org
lumilumi
I’m afraid I see the use of “yoon” as being a useful vehicle to highlight the difference between closed ideological minds and open rational minds. Not all No voters are yoons, only the ideologically driven nationalists.
I think it’s quite effective in drawing attention to the lack of rational humanity displayed by British nationalists, that’s only an opinion though.
Do you have access to your inalienable human rights? No!
Ignore ignorant/malicious ideologs such as TUBA-BOY, they view you as sub-human and beneath themselves! They are try to distract you from important stuff, like equality, human rights and sustainability.
Don’t let them frame the world for you to live in.
Put the master’s tools down.
The definition of foreign is having a trait or characteristic that is different from your own country.
In areas like language, there is a clear and unambiguous distinction.
In food and drink, the distinctions are less clear, with perceptions making the difference. One mans porridge is another mans owsianka.
However, despite different language and cultural identity, I find Europe’s disposition towards immigration, tolerance, inclusiveness and dignified respect for each other to be much more comfortable for me to live with that the Britnat frenzy to target, demonise, denigrate and segregate anything and everything that is non-British.
To say therefore that “Britishness” is increasingly foreign to me is quite literally the definitive truth.
In saying so I acknowledge that British is in fact a geographical term, but you know what? I don’t actually mind if we were change the name by deed poll, and let England keep the title if it’s so important to them. Britain, and the Caledonian Isles has a nice enough ring to it. If the English and Scottish Unionists are alarmed that I’m at risk of becoming foreign, then they are going to be disappointed. I can confirm that I already am, and furthermore, I am thoroughly relaxed about it. Come on in, the water is lovely.
Pure, unalloyed historical revisionist imaginings from that pair at the top of the article.
Doesn’t miss and hit the wall.
link to thenational.scot
link to thenational.scot
So are we clear yet on who is working for party politics and corporate interests and who is working for the population?
Great article Al – pot, kettle!
They are right to some extent in that there are similarities between Yes, Leave, and Trump – they were all anti-establishment votes. No, Leave and Trump were all anti-foreigner.
The worrying question is whether an anti-establishment campaign can win without also being racist.
There is a poster above who has experienced anti-English sentiment in Scotland. I don’t doubt it exists – but assuming someone is a Yes voter just because they talk like that is false. Look at the casual stereotypes in the Shuggie and Duggie cartoon for example in the Labour supporting, Unionist Daily Record.
People express an opinion of elections in which they have no vote. Some people try to scam £Millionaires.
The people in Scotland overwhelmingly voted to stay in the EU, with full EU rights.
The Tory/Unionist and green no Party are destroying the world economy and do not believe in Democracy. Green Tea Party. American Tea Party. The Americans dumped the tea in the water. The Green’s got Trump elected.
Dave McEwan Hill at 1227am,
Completely agree. It is clear as day, that many, many goods from Scotland pass through England on the way to the EU or worldwide, and as you say, get registered by companies with their head offices in England. So the illusion is created that England is our largest export market. I do not think it is.
The SNP and Scot Gov really need to nail this on the head, as a matter of priority.
As with the made up Scottish financial figures (GERS), these assertions about England being our largest export market are based on nothing but hot air. As others have pointed out, do we really expect Westminster to tell the truth about Scotland, since it has been lying against our country since well before the union in 1707.
To London, Scotland is just an expendable resource to be fleeced in much the same way they did with their other colonies.
As I say, this needs nailed by the Scot Gov/SNP at each and every opportunity.
Macart
I think this scholar adds weight to Mr. McKenna’s argument. Perhaps the original target of the thought-terminating cliche of “conspiracy theorist”. Better have some tinfoil handy. 😉
link to carrollquigley.net
The decent people of America voted.
Ken500
I know I suggested ambiguity is a powerful tool but are you perhaps stretching things a bit mate? 🙂
@CameronB Brodie
Rea’s review and the premise of Quigley’s book again don’t miss and hit the wall. 🙂
The price of production have to be deducted from any trade benefits, To realise the profit and calculate the total cost. Production costs do bring alternative benefit. Added in to the calculated the cost.
Other benefits from the EU have to be included. Grants. Investment from EU banks etc. Renewables etc. Tax situation as regards equality of production and costs has to be considered. The largest biggest market and investments. There is still world trade, as well. The two are not mutually exclusive. It’s not either or it’s both to benefit. It would benefit the rest of the U.K. If Scotland stayed in the EU. EU goods and services could be traded more easily through Scotland.
Good day Cameron. ?
Cameron the worst PM ever.
@ ? = ( : > )
The world has turned full circle. Spinning on it’s axial.
Left has become right. Right has become left.
Ken500
I think the scope of Scotland’s potential is unimaginable, at present. Our economy currently operates within a system that drains Scotland of our energies and is harmful to Scotland’s health and well-being (UK), which functions within a global marketplace that seeks the kind of opportunities provided by “difference”. Remove this ailment, liberate Scottish culture, and new practices and process will emerge. At least the “Semiotic Theory of Space and Place” tells us that, but that’s just contemporary science, not ideology. 😉
Links
link to welfareweekly.com
link to news.gov.scot
link to holyrood.com
link to snp.org
link to reprieve.org.uk
link to theconversation.com
link to politicshome.com
link to politics.co.uk
Theresa May dealt fresh blow
link to archive.is
Britain may borrow 100 billion pounds ($125 billion) more than previously forecast
link to archive.is
link to uk.businessinsider.com
The self-proclaimed government outsider is having trouble finding people to run the government.
link to archive.is
link to rt.com
link to france24.com
link to politico.eu
link to middleeasteye.net
Nana:
Good Morning Nana,Thank you for the links.Kettle’s on.
Who needs a morning paper when we’ve got Nana, eh?
Great set of links as usual! Thanks. 🙂
@ TUBA-BOY
Your next for the treatment. I doubt my skooling will have an effect in moving you from your bigoted position, there’s no money in it for you, but I might help others put tiered old perceptions to bed….
WANK
link to eolss.net
Didn’t actually watch Marr but have seen Laura Kuenssberg on the BBC since with a face like a well skelp arse. Think it’s one of these protesteth too much kind of things from those who have gone out of their way to aid and abet the rise of the far right in english speaking countries getting on their high horse when they extend their platform to a foreigner. Perhaps the problem wasn’t that it happened but that it did on a day where remembering not only the first world war a clear link to the extremes that kind of xenophobia can lead to wasn’t meant to happen.
Also remember the extremists didn’t actually win in Scotland, just as I’d like to believe that they didn’t win in Brexit or to some extent in the USA. What they do though is convince you they did and try to prevent any reconciliation between those they defeated and the moderates on their own side.
@ TUBA-BOY
While we’re on the subject, you might want to wind your neck in until such time as you understand what you are talking about. You are simply showing the world what an ignorant dick you are. Why not work to build a nation rather than work to bury a nation under ideology?
WANK
link to ecpr.eu
O/T
Just got round to watching this Q&A session after a showing of London calling.
link to youtube.com
@TUBA-BOY
As ideology does not require a link to reality, it provides an unsuitable base for the preparation of SUSTAINABLE strategies for national development. I reckon you are aware of that, so that suggests your dickish-ness is malicious.
WANK
link to gmu.edu
AFAIK, Scotland and England are a Union of 2 nations. to me that means Scots kids are born Scottish and English kids English. It doesn’t matter where they are born, it’s the nationality of their parents that count, or their own personal choice, when they reach their majority, to become a citizen of their chosen country.
I seem to remember in the past, my passport said BritScot.
It’s funny that the Scot unionists, all 3 of them, are feart of losing their jobs in Westminster and worried of no longer being entitled to be elevated to the Lords, while the SNP are quite happy to lose their jobs when we become independent and have never coveted the ermine.
All those Scottish lords and Dames will be out on their ear too, no more gravy train. They must be bricking it.
What will happen in Hollyrood come independence, will the Unionist parties have to be dissolved, as they are part of the main Westminster parties, with loyalty to London and not Scotland?
I suppose the Brexiters will still want to go abroad to the EU for holidays. I wonder how that works now that they have told them to fuck of.
@ TUBA-BOY
Stick with me kid and I’ll make sure your skooling is not based on misconceptions born out of ideology.
WANK
link to coe.int
orri says:
16 November, 2016 at 8:45 am
‘Think it’s one of these protesteth too much kind of things from those who have gone out of their way to aid and abet the rise of the far right’
And theyre still doing it – the French far right got about 15 mins uninterrupted on R4 Newsnight last night, and Farage was never off the airwaves for years, totally disproportionate to UKIPs (then) low support. Well done, BBC. I seem to remember far back there was a time when the far-right was actually explicitly excluded from the media because of historical lessons of the rise of Nazism and war and holocaust etc, but now changed days.
Then they seem surprised when Brexit wins, which encourages Trump, which helps who next?
@ TUBA-BOY
I’m nowhere near eleven yet but I hope you’re getting the picture? Wind your neck in, DICK, or it’ll be the full treatment next time.
WANK
O/t Call Kaye with a classic lie. the SN P MP is questioning the virtue of FOLOW ON milk for infants and She conflates this with FORMULA versus breastfeeding.
Follow on milk is a con formula is an acceptable alternative second best to breastfeeding.
The lie is disgusting,can anyone text her to make distinction.I failed to do so.
…oh and the decent, fair, social democratic, outward looking, progressive SNP are airbrushed from the UK political scene.
BBC Channel
UK’s Negotiating Objectives
Disaster
Can’t understand posters above even doubting the lie that the UK is our biggest market! There’s 700 miiion citizens in the EU and only 50 million over the border. Even on whisky sales alone that exposes it as a complete fabrication!
Just wow:
Nor can we forget how fully the blood of us all is mixed in the families of our four nations, how freely it has flowed, as one, in war.
Joemcg says:
16 November, 2016 at 9:58 am
Can’t understand posters above even doubting the lie that the UK is our biggest market! There’s 700 miiion citizens in the EU and only 50 million over the border. Even on whisky sales alone that exposes it as a complete fabrication!
Of course its bollocks, but our Unionist chums keep repeating it because it has a certain ‘truthiness’ and requires a little thought to see that its bollocks. Like, all trade is not going to cease because theres a border.
Scotland provides 50% of UK hydrocarbon needs. And the UK is not going to suddenly switch off the pipelines and buy its oil and gas in tankers from elsewhere.
The average voter unfortunately relies on heuristics, not thought, to form opinion, thats why the Unionists do vacuous soundbites on repeat, like how many times can Alistair Darling fit the word ‘pensions’ into one sentence. They know exactly what they are doing, attempting to deceive.
@ TUBA-BOY
I almost forgot this one. You do understand what ideology is, after all, that’s what British nationalism is DICK. You’re not making much of an effort to connect with AUTHENTIC Scotland, so you appear to be one of “them”, eh?
WANK
link to preserve.lehigh.edu
The world is spinning on it’s axial
The left is right, the right is left.
Ding dong the witch is dead.
What a total shambles
The Tories are destroying the world economy.
@ TUBA-BOY
Here’s another perspective for you, DICK. You’re dealing with someone who actually knows something about preparing strategies for sustainable nation development. You?
WANK
link to tandfonline.com
Who is Maurice Golden MSP
And you might well ask that question because he’s another one of those slimy underhanded list MSPs I have already mentioned
In a communication today from Maurice Golden MSP he gives the impression he is my MSP because he lives locally, he shows me pictures of places and people he is standing next to congratulating him he says on his work, he says
He shows me pictures of how he’s involved with Citizens advice in my area and indicates his help in providing those services to the thousands of people who need them, he further does work with the Woodland Trust he says and includes pictures to support that
What Maurice Golden MSP doesn’t say on his communication to me and probably thousands of others is which political party he belongs to
High and low back to front I’ve scanned this document but nada, zilch, nothing
Because even though I’m pretty clued up and know stuff I had to look him up to confirm what were my suspicions and *Bingo* turns out I was right he belongs to the
*Ruth Davidson no to another referendum party*
But he does say he’s working hard for me so thank God for another lying Tory too embarrassed to use their party name on a document, they must have learned that one from the Liable Dismocrats
There are 500million in the EU
62Million in the UK.
5.2Million in Scotland
The Scottish population has only increased, since 2000 Holyrood. From the 1707 Union. In 1707 the Scottish population was 1/4 of the British population. Westminster policies depopulated Scotland.
I forgot to say in my previous post that I was born in Germany, most of my siblings married foreigners, as I did. So what? To think otherwise is xenophobic. I’m an internationalist, who is very outlooking in my views. As soon as you leave your own country, you are a foreigner.
There is cetainly nothing wrong with being a foreigner. As I live in Germany, I am a foreigner, but I have always been made most welcome here.
Only small minded right wing bigots try to buy political points using the foreigner card.
@ TUBA-BOY
Though I indicated ideology does not require a link to reality, that does not mean it can not be strengthened through such a link. Scottish ‘nationalism’ is linked to landscape and culture, which means Scottish ideology can be fitted to the environment. British nationalism is linked to expansionist English nationalism and political ambition. It provides no hope for a sustainable future.
Sounding more and more like you’re one of “them”.
WANK
@ TUBA-BOY
I hope today’s lesson has taught you to that I appreciate the full nastiness of your being. I hope you also realise I intend planning you out of Scotland’s environment, through applied PRINCIPLES OF CONTEMPORARY SOCIAL SCIENCE. I tend to achieve what I set my mind on. You?
WANK
Undoubtedly just another UKOK Better Together lie @ Joemcg says at 9:58 am.
“Can’t understand posters above even doubting the lie that the UK is our biggest market! There’s 700 million citizens in the EU and only 50 million over the border. Even on whisky sales alone that exposes it as a complete fabrication!”
Whisky makes up ¼ of the UK’s food and drink revenue for a start.
Dr Dr Paul Monaghan MP (SNP MP for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) says on 14th November:
“UKGov told me today just 44% of Scottish manufacturing exports are to rest of the UK but don’t know how much of that is passported to EU.”
Also says:
“Interesting UKGov reply today on question of proportion of Scottish exports to RUK destined for EU. They don’t know. My figures suggest 75%.”
So the:
“Scotland exports 4 x more to rUK than EU and is important” fae JaBa and Murdo (TQ11) Fraser is complete Bullsh*t as we all suspect.
What Murdo and JaBA actually means is that the 3/4 of those Scottish exports to rUK that the rUK then exports to EU is the important bit (
As always it is Union First, the truth a lot further down the list as we have come to expect from BLiS and the Ruth Davidson ‘No surrender to referendums’ Party.
Fib Dems irrelevant.
The telling thing is the implication that being a ‘foreigner’ is a bad thing, when its actually a big so what. I live here, you live there, so what. It says volumes about the person using the word.
In any case as far as I know the independant Irish or New Zealanders arent called ‘foreign’, so why us?
Yet another vacuous soundbite, appealing to the xenophobic, and in the hope that some voters wont apply any thought to the matter.
@Joemcg
Exactly what I was thinking – I simply don’t accept that of Scotland’s exports to the EU, 90% are consumed by rUK.
To compare with Spain, just 18% of its total exports go to neighbouring France and 15% go to Germany:
link to tradingeconomics.com
CameronB Brodie says:
16 November, 2016 at 10:51 am
@ TUBA-BOY
He’s a merely a spin doctor really. Well not merely, its how our imperial masters operate from the bottom to the top of planet torboy.
Adam Tomkins MSP Retweeted
Blair McDougall ?@blairmcdougall Nov 13
The FM who campaigned for all welfare power to come to Scotland in March asks to delay devolution of welfare for yrs
Adam Tomkins MSP ?@ProfTomkins 21h21 hours ago
Adam Tomkins MSP Retweeted Philip Sim
No answers were forthcoming. Obfuscation, but no answers.Adam
Tomkins MSP added,
Philip Sim @BBCPhilipSim
.@ProfTomkins presses ScotGov for detail of “split competence” approach of devolving benefits – background here: http://www.bbc.britnat.central.com.
Adam Tomkins MSP ?@ProfTomkins 13h13 hours ago
This story now onto its 4th day; still no answers from SNP about when they want these powers
What’s really going on though? I have no idea because its a toryboy Scotland and we just live in it.
@Nana – surprisingly lots of empty seats at that Q&A.
They need to advertise the screenings more widely.
As for BlairMcD, I have no problem with someone having an opposite opinion on No/Yes.
My problem with him is he’s a bare faced liar.
When he posts some mince on twitter re GERS, someone like Dr Craig Dalzell will show him values that disputes what he is saying.
He then disappears and shows up on a different thread spouting the exact same rubbish that has already been dis-proven.
Jockanese
It isn’t just the politically motivated accounting fiddles.
In a post indy Scotland, the practise of exporting raw produce to England to import it back at 3 or 4 times the price will simply not be tenable. Within a very short period of time, Scottish entrepreneurs will be commercially driven to set up Scotland’s own packaging and distribution networks, just like a real country. Hey! And I don’t think ‘Brand Scotland’ would be a negative either.
As I keep saying, folk should concentrate on resources to population ratio. Fishing, Aquaculture and other food and drink, Timber, Energy, Manufacturing, Educational, Tourism, Bioscience, Software development, Heavy Engineering.
Jacob Rees-Mogg appears to be suffering from a touch of schizophrenia when it comes to Trump. First, he was very much supportive (link to bbc.co.uk).
At the height of the ‘pussy-gate’ furore he retracted his endorsement (link to theguardian.com)
Now he is back to saying what a jolly good thing Trump’s election is (link to bbc.co.uk).
In any case, a stellar and incisive article Al.
I don’t care if England is our biggest market.
This is how the Unionist media manipulate the agenda. What if England IS our biggest market, are you saying Independence destroys that market? If so, explain how and why. They don’t say that however, they let loose the argument and watch it scuttle about the floor trying to find a hiding place.
It might very be there is some adjustment to be made while the UK economy disentangles itself into separate Scottish and English economies, but isn’t that one of the fundamental points of the exercise? Scotland is an export led economy tied to U.K. economy with a pitiful balance of trade. Our economy is more robust and diversified, but remains so in spite of Westminster policy towards Scotland, certainly not because of it.
Westminster it seems to me has no “game plan” for Scotland beyond running down our infrastructure and commercial viability as some kind of cynical example for how we would fare in the world of cruel economics without the blessing of their divine insight and patronage.
Yes Westminster, you’ve made your point. Trust you with Scotland’s oil revenues for 40 years and watch you dismantle our heavy industry in return. Then tell us, ad nauseum, that it had to be this way, and ignore the blatant example of Norway who applied a much more intelligent philosophy towards farming a natural resource for the good of their population across generations to come, whereas Westminster’s philosophy has been to plunder and exploit somebody else’s resource for the maximum return on the bare minimum investment. McCrone got it right. You got it terribly, terribly wrong, and by rights you should be held to account for your wilful incompetence.
I really don’t know whether England is indeed our biggest market, nor the extent to which commerce between our respective nations will need to be adjusted. We have to sell our oil, whisky, energy, food, textiles, technology, and expertise to somebody who doesn’t have such things themselves. But we enter the transaction with things to sell, and apparently a customer who thinks they have a privileged right to buy.
I do know however that Westminster’s strategic policy towards the government of Scotland has been a disaster of cataclysmic proportions, and if bringing that tragic reality to a halt does damage commerce for a time, I trust that having faith in a Scottish government in tune with Scotland’s potential will be a worthy compensation which more than makes up for any interim shortfall.
If Scotland is as dependent upon England for our commerce as the Unionist arguments profess, then perhaps that’s a short term strategic imbalance that needs to be corrected rather than exacerbated.
heedtracker
Folk just need to highlight DICKS like ProfTomkins, who is unlikely to understand how the framework of social policy fits within the wider public policy framework, including an understanding of causal spatial factors involved and how they relate to each other. I doubt he’d even heard of post-modern critical social theory and “The Methodology of the Oppressed”, until it escaped into Scotland’s environment.
I’ll just keep blasting them out of the sky with principles of contemporary social science and my trusty solutions of synthesis. Nice. 🙂
Yes I’m simplifying it @ Chic McGregor says at 11:22 am but the arguments given by JaBa and Murdo TQ11 Fraser yesterday and repeated verbatim by MSM/BBC need challenged.
Aye, so many possibilities and as you say distribution networks (container ports spring immediately to mind).
There is already a massive Global awareness, respect and demand for ‘Brand Scotland’ already without Independence which continues to grow.
You are 100% correct about ‘resources to population ratio’ Scotland has a massive surplus across the board.
Adam Boulton program this morning
New report out by Labour MP David Lammy which shows in England and Wales more Black and Muslim people are now going to jail for longer than white counterparts for the same crime, also Gypsies and Travelling people arrests and incarceration has increased to record levels
Hate crime since Brexit vote has increased by 20% according to Mr Lammy and it’s now become commonplace for foreign looking and black people to be shouted at in the street to go back where they came from
In the light of this research by Mr Lammy he says he will be voting against the triggering of article 50 as he feels the need for the protection of the EU in Britain
What can you say?
Kev
Exactly. I`m down in England every other month and there is very little Scottish produce in the shops. In fact there is as much from the Rep if Ireland in supermarkets as there is Scottish and very little at that, and any clothes or hardware that is not foreign made is produced in England.
Scotland on the other hand is saturated with produce from England, just a quick look at the label confirms this, the reality is England exports far far more to Scotland than we do to England, its just the ongoing Unionist lies to convince a gullible public that we are totally dependent on England.
God how I ache for independence.
CameronB Brodie says:
16 November, 2016 at 11:37 am
heedtracker
Spin is everything though. Here’s Prof T explainerising for the UK in the Graun. I still have absolutely no idea what’s going on and as rancid The Graun will not say out loud, that’s the whole point, duh!
link to archive.is
The Scottish Conservatives’ welfare spokesman, Adam Tomkins, who previously argued that the SNP government would “rather complain about the DWP than get on with the day job of making social security devolution work as smoothly and as quickly as possible,” suggested that the confusion has been caused because ministers failed to share information with parliament.
He told the chamber that it was only after the DWP minister, Damian Green, had given evidence to Holyrood’s social security committee, on which Tomkins sits, were members of the committee given minutes of a meeting at which the “split competence approach” was discussed with UK ministers.”
Old MacDougal’s an old school spin doctor and he’ll enjoy this very much.
Well argued Breeks!should be a standard SNP script for rubbishing the ‘UK is our biggest and one and only market so don’t jeopardize yourselves daft Jocks by leaving us’ Unionist’latest wheeze for keeping us chained down.
@Liz
I wondered if perhaps some folks went home after the showing of London calling and did not wait for the Q&A. I’ve seen this happen at events especially if its late at night.
I get quite uncomfortable myself sitting on hard seats and just want to get home.
Would be good to hear from someone who was there on the night. I agree these events need to be publicised better and folks should take no voters with them otherwise we are just talking amongst ourselves.
Sinky said at 10:12pm last night:-
“More Misreporting Scotland from the BBC on Holyrood vote.
BBC fail to mention that Labour abstained while Lib Dems and Tories voted against the substantive SNP motion, which did not mention Indy Ref2, and was supported by the Greens.”
We saw it last night—and the omission jumped straight out at us—the BBC in Scotland no longer care if half the viewers know they are feeding less than the whole truth. AKA lies.
It’s so obvious—-have these news editors and reporters no shame?
Watch and share
S5M-02488 Single Market and Trade (European Union Referendum
link to youtube.com
@ Rev. Stuart Campbell
When you’re discussing the nature of personal deficiencies of others, it might be a good idea to stick with BBC approved taxonomy. As such, the correct technical term for the likes of @martinmcluskey is WANK.
Hope that helps. 😉
To sum up a grinning Andrew Neil on The Daily Politics a few minutes ago. If Donald Trump withdraws from Europe the Europeans will have to be nice to us because we’ve got Trident and troops already on the eastern borders of Europe.
So there!
John H. says:
16 November, 2016 at 12:13 pm
To sum up a grinning Andrew Neil on The Daily Politics
EU responds, not directly, on Facebook.
Guy Verhofstadt
4 hrs ·
Instead of whining about Trump’s victory, we should come up with a plan ourselves. We need to expand the European border and coast guard and also develop our own European security capability to keep us safe. If the Trans-Atlantic Partnership is dead, we should look for co-operation and opportunities from within Europe. Let’s not waste our time on a TTIP that the Trump administration will never agree to. Instead, the European Union should focus on completing its own single market.
It is time for unity in Europe.
It’s time to make Europe great again!
This perspective assumes that Scotland’s natural place in the world is bounded by the confines of contemporary English nationalism. The man is clearly an English COLONIAL WANK who see Westminster as the center of the universe. A One Nation perspective unlikely to find an understanding of the sustainability paradigm, even if you took him by the hand. Bless.
A One Nation perspective unlikely to find an understanding of the sustainability paradigm, even if you took him by the hand. Bless.
He’s an English tory, a high one, who believes that England owns Scotland. If they lose Scotland, England will be greatly diminished. And that’s just not going to happen.
Its one of those odd but fundamental UKOK dichotomies right now among high toryboys like Prof T. He was a very desperate Remain vote, not because Leaving the EU is probably going to be a very economic bad thing for the UK, but that its given Scots just one more huge reason for devo and independence.
In England, high tories rant away at how great England will be outside the EU, and rage at Scots to be quiet and accept UK democracy.
For what it’s worth I was in wilkinsons in Camberley last week and was told by a young girl customer to go back to where you belong you bloody foreingner to be fair she was told off by the staff who came to my defence the girl had heard my scots accent and did not like it but as I say she was young and so was I long ago
Hi liz.
There were around 150 at the actual screening, many of whom did not stay for the Q&A session.
Nana, thanks for the last link, excellent.
The essential thing to remember is that Labour didn’t have the guts to outright vote against Holyrood even attempting to remain part of the EU because the most obvious way that that might be achieved is via a real rather than pretend version of Devo Max. Such a move might be better for Scotland and the UK as a whole but would unpick some of the close integration that is used in order to portray independence as being too much bother to achieve. As such they couldn’t actually give a fuck about the increased employment opportunities and prosperity a thriving Scotland might afford if that meant independence might be as step closer.
RE: Adam Boulton programme
What Westminster government and the right wing media’s runaway narrative has unleashed on society. Its like watching a train wreck in slow motion.
The UKs sales pitch to rest of the world comes across as, ‘we like your money well enough, we like your trade, we even like some of your products. We’d rather you weren’t wandering round our streets is all’.
You could probably shorten that to something like ‘give us your business, now fuck off Johnny Foreigner’, but that might be seen as somewhat lacking in diplomacy.
The reality of HOW the UKs exit from the EU is being brought about is an object lesson in how not to do a thing.
Denigrating, demonising and scapegoating the international community you hope to retain or attract as customers over a period of decades and culminating in a summer and autumn of rising hate crime against said communities mibbies isn’t the greatest sales pitch ever.
Just sayin’ like.
Oh, and were I a UK national wealthy enough to be considering an overseas hol next year? I’d mibbies rethink that plan and look for a nice caravan park near Skeggy as an alternative. I don’t think 2016 has done the overseas rep any favours.
Well done UK gov and the meeja…etc.
Breeks
Re “our biggest market”- intriguing tweet from SNP Paul Monaghan this morning:
Interesting UKGov reply today on question of proportion of Scottish exports to RUK destined for EU. They don’t know. My figures suggest 75%
Excellent article Mr T. 🙂
To begin with, the use of the word ‘foreigner’ is negatively thrown about too freely by the Corporate Media. Why can’t being ‘foreign’ be a positive (good) thing?
Take the block-quoted comments above, below a certain Alex Ferguson’s picture statement (like all knee-benders, he’s no sir to me.)
Try replacing the word ‘Foreigner(s)’ with the word ‘Neighbour(s)’ and you should observe a distinct difference in understanding.
The thing is.. we’ve ALWAYS been ‘neighbours’ in Britain (geographically), but the Corporate Media want to paint the people of an independent Scotland as ‘foreigners,’ (politically) ~ THAT’S the difference.
Same goes if you go abroad.. you’re not a foreigner, you’re an international neighbour of the world. If you can’t love people, try to at least like them. Yule feel better for it. Save the hatred and loathing for Westminster and the Corporate Media, that’s more than valid.
For me, there will only ever be one foreigner.. and that person is Lou Gramm.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Head Games
link to youtube.com
doh- Jockanese posted this further up thread. Ignore me
Jockanese Wind Talker
I see you beat me too it. It would be fascinating to know how other EU countries’ exports break down as the 44% figure always struck me as ridiculous.
I wonder if Paul Monaghan can share his workings with us?
Cameron B Brodie @ 12.15
I hope I’m helping.
While as others will testify I am no prude.
The constant use of Wank and Dick in what you are trying to say risks you lessening the impact of the message.
Now even if it’s fair comment or not you may be accused of just using every excuse to tell them they are are Wank or a Dick.
That allows them to dismiss your overall message,and say to themselves and others you are only abusive.
You needn’t agree with me Cameron (of course you needn’t) and you certainly don’t need to justify it.
But I would be no kind of friend if I thought it but didn’t tell you.
Jist Sayin.
Really peed off at the politics right now. I suppose its just the tedious ping pong with shite.
Tried to watch PMQs, but the level of animal noises, and just trite repetition from May, made me get up and do something useful.
The only interesting snippet was an intervention from a favourite son of Scotland, Alberto Costa. I can’t stomach the arse licking toad, BUT, he had a go at May about his Italian parents, and not wanting to be asked to vote to remove their EU rights!!!!
WTF?? I’m pretty sure he would happily sell his parents for the Tory cause, and its taken from June for this issue to permeate his tiny brain?
I think he is the pasty for the internal Tory rebellion to begin.
Think we’ve already got a handle on that bit of exports via English ports being treated as trade with England rather than their ultimate destination. The obvious question then is whether England will refuse an independent Scotland passage through to our markets. Given they did prior to 1707 it’s not that far fetched.
@Tam Jardine,
It is the subject of ongoing academic study. No doubt we will hear more in the near future.
As for indyref 1 & 2 , we should not forget that 15% of the Scottish electorate are English born at any one time and has been the ongoing trend for many years. It is not my intention to demonise English people living in Scotland but indigenous Scots cannot ignore this extremely influential fact. This is a main factor why Scottish independence from the UK will never happen. I believe Scotland would have voted YES in indyref 1 if not for this weighty factor.
Hey there @Blair Paterson ~
Looks like this young girl customer was unknowingly a fan of the ‘Foreigner.’
How fitting, dig it..
link to youtube.com
Liz g
I’ve been trying to emphasis my utter contempt for these sorry sacks by using BBC approved humour, and to show them they are completely unable to impact on my psyche. Hopefully loosening some social capital in the process, as well, aiming to undermine their feeling of entitlement.
I’ll take your point on board though and try to be a bit more accessible in future. 😉
Nana, eternal gratitude for this link comprehensively debunking the ‘4 times more trade with rUK than the EU’ lie which got its diurnal airing via the loathsome abstainer Red Tory Jackie Baillie and the Queen’s Eleven sectarian bigot and SGE Constituency reject Murdo Fraser in the Holyrood Chamber yesterday.
Who put the ‘Rotter’ in the Rotterdam Syndrome?
In a nut shell there is no way to calculate the imports and exports to England and its colonies from Scotland.
Almost all whisky which we export to the EU, and the rest of the world, goes via English ports therefore is counted as Scots exports to England.
The same applies to timber beef fish IT products, and so on.
I’d venture that banking, finance, and service industry business conducted in Scotland/Edinburgh but with a brass plate and a post restans in London is considered rUK income and exports.
It is clear that UK companies do not break down their income, imports, exports by ‘regional; performance, and this is reflected in even the Bayonet of the Scots Iain Davidson’s Unionist packed Westminster Scottish Affairs Referendum Propaganda Paper at the time.
A Sainsbury store in Scotland buys eggs bacon and milk from Scottish producers, who sell on to Scottish consumers, the profit from which is calv culated as RUK income, from Scottish food and drink ‘exported’ to rUK without leaving our country, and served up at Scottish tables?
Oil exports of £37 billion, and a ‘missing £36 billion unaccounted for in their own footnotes, serve to expose the lies and misinformation peddled by the Red Blue and Yellow crypto Nationalist Tories, as vile and sinister propaganda as evil as Hitler’s Reich.
Fraser was on BBC last night, peddling this myth, unchallenged by the interviewer, a lass whose name escapes me.
He argued that Scotland would get the cold shoulder from England post self dtermination, because England would prefer to negotiate with Brazil, India and China, as ‘punishment’ presumably, for the temerity of exercising democracy and opting for Self Dteremination.
FRaser reminded me of Nixo during the Nixon Kennedy debates. He was perspiring badly, sported a five o’clock shadow, and black too much coffee rings under his eyes.
He should never play poker. He has two ‘tells’. He blinked constantly as he lied about exports to the Uk, and what confirmed that he was fibbing to me; he opened his mouth and spoke out loud.
Like the myth of Scotland’s Black Hole of £14.9 billion,(It is reported that RUK is to borrow an ADDITIONAL £100 billion this year. Black Holes in Blackburn Lancashire?) which the TV channels allow to go unchallenged, this latest tossery about our trade deficit with rUK is given maximum uninterrupted air time.
I call you a liar, Murdo Fraser. Prove me wrong. Show me your source documents that prove that we export more to England than the rest of the EU, and the Universe Beyond.
@Fred
It’s worth repeating
link to youtube.com
and how times change
link to youtube.com
Forgot to remove the https, waiting for the hammers to fall!
Liz g
Keep on the message. No distractions or comments that can be used against us all
‘This is a main factor why Scottish independence from the UK will never happen’
If I did not know any better I would say that you are John (I have no money to pay my bets) McTernan.
Scottish Independence from the UK will happen. There, that statement is no less valid than your one.
You cannot state facts that you clearly have no way of knowing. It just makes what you say look and sound like bollocks.
@ Cameron, remember there are ladies always present here, don’t be a tosser kid!
@heartsupwards
It is true that if only Scots born in Scotland and resident in Scotland had been allowed to vote the result would have been a very narrow YES.
It is also likely though that if people born in Scotland but living in England had been given the vote the result would have been an even bigger margin for NO.
So – messing with the franchise is not the answer. Hearts and minds dear boy, and banging on about irrelevant and divisive factors such as country of birth is really not helpful. You need to talk to people. We have a Frenchman living here long term who took a lot of persuading because he said it was not his business, but he voted YES in the end.
Fred
🙂
With references to our cross border trade with Yoonland, why oh why, is it ever scarcely or at all highlighted that WE, buy more from said Yoonland than they buy from us.
That is a fact, and by good measure. If they imposed hard borders, then they are going to have very many manufacturers there very angry. Then there are the thousands of jobs lost too.
This needs rammed down their throats. I understand the SNP are walking carefully towards our aim, but the public need to get this absorbed to, much more should be made of it.
Bliar McBloater has some bloody nerve, seems to be a unionist trait to lie and then pat yourself on the back at the good job you have done deceiving the more gullible in Scottish society!
Cameron B Brodie @ 1.26
The odd reminder of exactly what they are does no harm I think.
Just don’t want you to risk diluting the message.
Also giving them the excuse to be offended and tag you as just abusive,so therefore it’s legitimate to ignore you.
I am only suggesting a more selective use of the reminder of exactly what they are might have more impact.
I am not repeat not claiming that I am personally offended,or that you are being abusive.
It just the potential for them to spin it that way I am drawing your attention to.
Hamish100
You are correct on this occasion but you are neither my keeper nor confessor.
ScotsRenewables
The result showed that if only Scots had been voting there would have been a substantial Yes.
Hamish100
And if you have further criticism of my style and approach, please show me the common courtesy of addressing your concerns to me directly. TA.
Hamish 100 @ 1.31
Pretty much agree Hamish…in principle.
But I have no interest in stewarding other adults.
I felt I was offering Cameron some friendly advice that he is free to ignore.
Only with a view that it may enhance his message,his actual language I have no problem with.
Liz g
Not a problem Liz. I need to be more mindful it is the accommodation of difference that we seek. Efforts towards inclusion requires measures to reduce barriers to accessibility. It’s all coming back to me now. Lol. 😉
Obama just offering himself to the No campaign in indyref2:
“It starts looking different and disorienting. And there is no doubt that has produced populist movements, both from the left and the right,” he said.
He said Americans must guard against those trends during Trump’s presidency, and insisted he, too, would speak out against divisive language even after he leaves office.
“We are going to have to guard against a rise in a crude sort of nationalism or ethnic identity or tribalism that is built around an us and a them,” he said.
link to edition.cnn.com
We have to convince English born or educated citizens that a progressive welcoming Scotland is a better option than an isolationist Ukip lite Tory England.
Taking Montenegro as an example, the EU placed a 55% threshhold on their independence from Serbia referendum which was only narrowly surpassed despite having only 45% of the population that considered themselves as Montenegran and a mainly hostile Serbian population of 29%.
A lovely country (population of only 650,000) worth visiting which uses the Euro despite not being in the EU.
I see that BritLabour UK are sounding more and more like Brexiteers. One does wonder just exactly what the Labour position on anything actually is.
Anyone want a laugh, here’s Dugdale and her idiots party’s reasons for abstaining yesterday
link to archive.is
Cameron B Brodie
Sorry Cameron I seem to have opened the door for you to get some criticism.
I should have kept my big mouth shut.
I hope you can accept that was not what I intended.
So again Sorry,and I won’t take any further part in this conversation.
Which is way off topic anyway,which is where I thought originally I was commenting,cause that’s where I usually read your stuff.
So sorry to everyone else as well for not marking my post OT.
I’ll away and either shoot myself or drink….any preferences?
Liz g
I thought it was all dealt with. Stirrer. 😉
@Scottish Renewables
I agree. Whatever the math of the last referendum, whatever the demographics, whatever the stereotype and labelling, its about convincing people resident in Scotland that they are Scottish citizens.
Its about convincing them that Scottish politics doesn’t have to be the politics of Westminster. It can be the politics they choose it to be. Its about convincing people that as Scottish citizens they CAN have certain rights, a constitution which guarantees and protects those rights. Its about letting them know that being a Scottish citizen isn’t about simply an accident of birth, but a choice and an act of will.
IMV we need to let folks know that being a Scot is a state of mind as well as a matter of residential geography or ancestry. 🙂
The alternative is exclusion and watching the current societal car crash being enacted by Westminster, that should be a heads up as to how well that approach works out.
‘Course that means there is one very important decision folk have to make as a first port of call. Its there for them if they want it. All they have to do is …hold out their hand.
HandandShrimp,
It’s kinda eerie, BLiS and the FibDems seem to be slowly morphing into Tory Unionist Isolationists, as exemplified for example by that vote (or non-vote) in Holyrood the other day. I know we refer to them disparagingly as “Red Tories” and “Yellow Tories”, but they really seem to be taking it to heart.
I’m beginning to wonder how long it’s going to be before we end up with the United Unionists as opposition party.
Heartsupwards at 1.21
I understand your points and the concerns you raise. It is an issue that has to be dealt wit very carefully. Apart from electoral considerations the immigration of retired, well-off, non economically active people from the south is forcing native Scots out an inflated housing market and providing no children for our rural schools. These are however as you say not bad people. They are merely taking advantage of generous circumstances they are in as most of us would.
We must remember that many English in Scotland also voted YES, many of them the working ones and more from the further north in England they came from. We just have to work out how to get to the rest. They have to be reassured that they are safe and welcome even if they purchase the Mail (or the Express which is down to 15P again).
Some arrive among us with some of the same sort of misconceptions about Scotland and the Scots that the English entertained about what was a sophisticated society in India.
So far, 1,673,289 people have made their voice heard in the National Survey on Independence / Brexit.
Go to wwww.snp.org to take part by 30 November
“Our priority is jobs. The SNP’s priority is independence, whatever the cost.” – Kezia Dugdale.
And with ALL the levers that come with independence, Scotland will be able to control its own economy much more effectively than Westminster has ever done, creating new jobs and new opportunities and keeping our young people here in Scotland. Westminster prevents us from doing that, Ms Dugdale. Westminster is holding Scotland back, placing us in increasing debt (of THEIR making) and that you fail to see and understand that obvious truth simply beggars belief.
The UK is a failing state and with Brexit will become a failed state going cap-in-hand to the IMF (again – only Scottish oil revenue got them out of a hole last time round).
If your priority is jobs, Ms Dugdale, then your priority has to be independence for that is the ONLY sure way of getting what you apparently desire. Make your mind up time, Kez.
@Nana
Oh jings Nana! That is a catastrophic release by Dugdale and a complete refusal to accept what has brought us to this sorry constitutional and economic pass in the first place.
A consumate example of weasle worded scapegoating and revisionist denial if ever there was one. We’re well rid of them after all.
Who knew?
Nana says at 2:20 pm
So basically we abstained ‘cos SNP Baaaaaad 🙂
I particularly liked the comment:
“I lead the only party that doesn’t just believe in the United Kingdom for its own sake. We believe in it as the best way to redistribute power and wealth across these islands.”
She neglects to mention that this redistribution of power and wealth she talks of is to BLiSs financial backers/lobbyists/EX MPs/EX MSPs etc.
Cactus:
See me @ 2:32am 🙂
Peace Always
On Scotland’s exports to Europe and Labour’s spin on their abstention or Lib Dems unbelievable siding with the Hard Brexit Tories, more pro-indy supporters need to write on a regular basis to Unionist newspapers and BBC phone-ins to counter the yoon propaganda.
Wings is very informative but we need to persuade the undecideds many of whom buy Unionist papers out of habit but are subliminally influenced by the constant SNP bad narrative.
Macart
“Who knew?”
I did but apparently I’m a bit weird. 🙂
“retired, well-off, non economically active people from the south is forcing native Scots out an inflated housing market and providing no children for our rural schools.”
this garbage fuels the no campaign slogan:
too racist, too sexist, too xenophobic, too stupid, too poor, etc. (and too ageist now it seems!)
Nana says at 2.20 The motion that Labour abstained on makes no mention of Independence or Indy Ref 2.
Motion on Single Market 15 November 2015
That the Parliament recognises the overwhelming vote of the people of Scotland to remain in the EU; supports calls for clarity from the UK Government on its proposals to leave the EU, including whether it will seek continued membership of the single market; notes the reports of the Fraser of Allander Institute and the National Institute of Social and Economic Research regarding the negative impact that leaving the single market would have on the UK and Scottish economies; recognises the opportunities for business and citizens that come from a Europe-wide approach to trade, regulation and free movement and the importance of ensuring that the benefits of this are shared fairly across society; supports the Scottish Government’s efforts to assist businesses in Scotland to secure new international opportunities; believes that the UK Government should seek to maintain Scotland’s place in the single market, and, in the event that the UK Government cannot or will not secure that option, calls for Scotland’s place in the single market to be fully protected.
Apparently never heard of the McCrone Report that here own party commissioned then buried as deeply as possible. Before her time I suppose. 🙁
A neutral point of interest for anyone interested..
To re-familiarise, when CameronB refers to ‘BBC approved humour’, I believe he refers to this.. enjoy your trip down memory lane:
link to youtube.com
We Are Not Kidding!
I turned on the radio this morning to BBCs, and admit I heard only part of the conversation between P Harvey and Gary Robertson.
This was apparently about Council tax funding, Harvey going on about how the Councils need a better way to get funding.
Then Robertson got excited when he asked Harvey who would he work with to achieve his aim of getting the changes required. Harvey said he would work with any of the parties on the issue.
Well, Robertson was very happy about that, obviously a good chance to undermine the SNP using Harvey must have came to his mind.
What does that say about Harvey though?,and what really are his intentions. One thing is for sure he considers himself and the greens king makers in Holyrood.
@Macart
Catastrophic release just about sums up labour.
another link…
Alex talks about Trump & brexit
link to bloomberg.com
Labour illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasions. Wasting £Billions of Scottish money and lying about it. Starving the vulnerable to death, killing and maiming millions of innocent people. Giving taxpayers money to their wealthy associates. Greedy, selfish, lying, lazy murderers.
The only cushy jobs they care about their’s.They can’t count or read a balance sheet. Most of them should be in jail. Embezzling, tax evader criminals. Making the lives of the vulnerable even more difficult. Women and children have been disproportionately affect by the welfare cuts the Unionists have brought in. Wasting £Billions on Hinkley Point, HS2, Trident and Heathrow. Coarse liars. It is disgusting. Aiding London S/E. Increasing the North/South divide. Just wicked.
Tv on Brew ha ha political programme just watched Alberto Costa and Murray ganging up and shouting down Kirsty Blackmann. It was like two wee pencil case shifters ( wimps) in school bullying the intelligent girl in the class.
Quote from Murray “if SNP take Indy ref 2 of the table we can concentrate lazer like on Brexit.
WTF……….
@CameronB Brodie
You and me both then. 😀
Smallaxe ~ I likey likey, tis worth repeating..
Simples ?
Peace Always
Cactus
Thanks mate. I was beginning to think I might actually bit weird, innit. 😉
This is the part that has Kezia’s knickers in a twist,
“in the event that the UK Government cannot or will not secure that option, calls for Scotland’s place in the single market to be fully protected.”
Yes i suppose it would be frightening if you are a servant or a slave, that is fighting talk. You see the Labour party are Westminster first, if Scotland should ever get ahead, oh my God! Terrible just Terrible,
Like the use of capitals in the unsubstantiated “FOUR TIMES” you can tell what paper she reads. So her missive boils down to SCOTLAND KNOW YOUR PLACE.
And they wounder why only fools would vote labour now.