The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland

Counting With Jamie Greene

Posted on February 14, 2019 by

In this site’s view, the proposed new employee-parking levy which the 2019 budget will enable local authorities to implement if they choose to  – but which is in no sense being imposed on anyone by the SNP, who don’t have a majority on a single Scottish council – is a pretty rotten idea, which will do nothing to combat climate change or congestion and will punish ordinary workers purely to make Greens feel important, but that’s neither here nor there. Councils can answer to voters if they use it.

What we’re a lot more worried about is the rampant Zimbabwe-style hyper-inflation that’s apparently running wild across Scotland, at least if you listen to Olympic-grade imbecile Jamie Greene MSP.

That was at 10.18 yesterday morning. But by halfway through lunchtime the situation had become far more serious.

Just three-and-a-quarter hours after his original tweet, the eternally hapless Greene had hiked the supposed cost of the charge by a whopping 25%, from £400 to £500. (Evidently not having bothered to check his own party’s press release before honking his face off as usual.)

At that rate of growth, in just a single month the annual bill for the tax would rise to an eye-watering £323,117 a year per employee, a sum which even Greene’s well-heeled Holyrood colleague Sir Edward Mountain might wince momentarily at.

Mere common-or-garden idiots would at least have had the wit to delete the original tweet to cover their embarrassment, but there’s a reason Jamie Greene is the seven-time champion of our Thickest Politician In Scotland rankings. As we write this more than 24 hours later, the two tweets still sit jarringly side-by-side flatly contradicting each other on his timeline.

That’s the sort of dedicated dum-dummery that’s just rocketed poor Jamie right back to the top of the charts again. Our congratulations as ever.

Print Friendly, PDF & Email

1 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. 14 02 19 17:56

    Counting With Jamie Greene | speymouth

447 to “Counting With Jamie Greene”

  1. bobajock says:

    The moronic unionists will as ever blame the SNP.


  2. Iain 2 says:

    You don’t have to be thick to be a unionist, but it certainly helps.

  3. I had to laugh when Murdo The Queen’s Eleven Fraser, the biggest political failure in Holyrood (7 times rejected by the People of Scotland) bemoaned the fate of Health Centre cleaners on minimum wage being forced to pay to park their cars at work.
    What fucking planet does this idiot live on?
    The one of course where he gets a lease Car with the job, and petrol mileage allowance, and £1200 a week plus expenses (free lunches)which may be the reason why he hasn’t a notion how much a car costs, to buy and maintain, plus petrol, insurance including business insurance if you are using it to work, road tax, and petrol.
    Fraser and Greene are perfect examples of the dunderheads left Up Here in the Brit Nat Branch Offices.
    I’m sure that they’ll all be campaigning hard to stay in their ‘precious union’ when the time comes.
    Where else can a body be an abject failure and still be forced on the public who rejected them?
    Tick fucking tock .

  4. Clootie says:

    One more time. There is no cost unless Tory/Labour councillors vote for it ( or sometimes suspended Aberdeen Labour councillors) vote for it.
    If for example a Labour led council vote it through then it I’d their political choice.
    Having a power and using a power a very different Jamie.

  5. Robert Louis says:

    The car parking levy, is a thoroughly daft idea, borne from the dogmatic ‘car-hater’ mindset, which dominates green politics. Many low paid workers (nurses and hospital staff are just one example) operate on shifts, when their are simply NO BUSES available, and adding some to the schedule would make no sense. So, the opposition are right, the car park tax is a DAFT idea. IF IT IS EVER IMPLEMENTED.

    And that is the point, it will be up to councillors to decide to use the power to impose a workplace parking levy. That is, Tory, Labour Green and SNP councillors.

    So, given the outright hostility from both the Tory and Labour party on this matter, and the fact it is a green party policy, with little enthusiasm in the SNP, people can be confident it will NEVER be implemented – unless the green party have an unparalleled success at the next council elections – something which is considerably less likely than Theresa May negotiating a ‘better deal’ on brexit.

    On the subject of anti car policies in general it must be said, little forethought is being given to the fact that in ten or twenty years almost all vehicles will be electric, near silent and with zero emissions (and in independent Scotland the electricity will almost exclusively be from renewable sources). Why would their entry into cities then need to be restricted? Perhaps the greens will think up a new reason to hate cars, like ‘they have four wheels’, or they are ‘just not bikes’. (I should point out I live in obsessively car-hating Edinburgh council-land, where much of the congestion has been generated by a clear sequential policy of closing roads and restricting roads, forcing vehicles to travel via ever more restrictive routes. Go take a look at Dublin Street, charlotte or St.Andrew’s square, to see clear examples of how available road space has been artificially made non-usable by traffic via bollards and obstructions – and for no good reason). Roads like Princes street (and their are many others) sit almost completely empty, while nearby Queen Street is congested. In Edinburgh, the council has turned the creation of congestion for no good reason, into an artform).

  6. Corrado Mella says:

    Save and print all the faux outrage tweets from the newfound defenders of our wallets, to roll up in a neat bundle and shove them up where the sun doesn’t shine as soon as a Tory Max / Tory Lite coalition in a godforsaken Scottish Council introduces the Car Park Tax.

    Because it will happen.

  7. Skip_NC says:

    I think I see where the different figures are coming from. I believe if the employer pays the charge, it is treated as taxable income to the employee and grossed up. Grossing up would mean more than $500 in most cases, of course.

    If I am right about the grossing up, his argument is still nonsense because the cost to the “hard-working Scots hit with an annual bill of #500 just for parking their car at work,” is, of course, only the tax cost of the benefit-in-kind because the employee will not actually have to fork over the #400 that the employer chooses to pay.

  8. Peter Macbeastie says:

    And he’s allowed out in public without a carer?

    Tories really are specially thick.

  9. John Alexander Ferguson says:

    Trust. We trust our health professionals, Tailors and candlestick makers every hour every day year in year out. Strange is it not that the ones who have the most influence in our lives are the ones we trust least, politicians.

  10. £8.00 a week to park your car in a City centre? I’ll take it.
    But not if I’m a cleaner on a minimum wage zero hour contract.

  11. Hamish100 says:

    If you take the bus, walk, cycle or other forms of transport it will cost nothing.Of course the local council may decide not to charge.

  12. Hamish100 says:

    I got told the msp concerned parks free of charge on the street. Only allowed 2 hrs though

  13. Scottish Steve says:

    Tories yet again pretending to be the champions of the working class. No one is fooled, Jamie. This is just another typical SNP Bad whinge.

    If the SNP had not given local councils this power, he’d be whining that the SNP are centralising power and not empowering local councils enough.

    The SNP are damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

  14. Gary45% says:

    Its a TORY!!!
    Nuff Said.

  15. Artyhetty says:

    Once again Britnats’ faux outrage as if they give one iota of concern or care for the ‘workers’. Do thy hell.

    As has been pointed out given that this potential charge is by choice, ie a council can implement it or not, the councils who are outraged can just, er not impose it.

    Let’s see just how many Britnat councils implement this charge eh. We are watching you Tory/red Tory Britnat councils! Just because you have the daily right wing rage covering your backs and printing your lies at will, doesn’t mean everyone in Scotland is foolish enough to believe you!

    Oh and far as I know, it’s free to charge electric cars in Scotland, and there are a good number of charging points now, it’s NOT free in England.

  16. Clootie says:

    Watching parliament live – SNP amendment 3 month extension to art 50. Labour MPs not even. Voting. The refusal once again to support anything the SNP table.

  17. geeo says:

    It is pretty straightforward stuff.

    Holyrood gives councils the powers they claim to want to raise revenue, councils baulk at using the powers, as THEY might be seen as responsible for the extra bill to the electorate.

    Which is pretty much what WM do, every time they slash the Holyrood budget then shout about the BAD SNP cut council budgets/hospital budgets/etc…

    This is a wee bit of payback imo.

    “You wanted the powers, use them” but if they do, the voters will blame the council.

  18. Socrates MacSporran says:

    93-315: there we have it, the Bain Principle there for all to see.

  19. thomas brotherston says:

    i have no party allegiance whatsoever however one thing that this issue does raise is the absolutely untenable issue of the use private cars. If it has been the Greens who have raised the profile of it then all power to them. Sooner or later we will ALL have to consider what is to be done. The environment is already critically damaged and a serious contributor is our love affair with the private car. imagine how much worse it will become when billions of working Chinese,Indians,Africans and Latin Americans all demand their right to the”thrill of the open road”
    Will we have the moral right to deny them their “easy rider” experience. what price the environment then? Lets not blur the issue. It is not about whether can we arrive at a eco friendly fuel’ it is about the inescapable fact that a car occupies physical “real estate” whether it is being driven or not. Watch from any motorway bridge to see the caravan of cars containing single passengers. Witness them fuming for hours in the traffic jams caused by their addiction to lone travel. the car has now become an obstacle to free movement. Ask anyone who ever went to a rock concert.

    Millions of cars are used for about 2 hours a day on average which to accomodate their use, we set aside millions of square feet of city centre high value property, hectares of fertile country side blanketed under flood creating tarmac, beauty spots defiled and destroyed by creating such easy access to them that they ere no longer beauty spots.

    Of course people are right to react to the fact that working people are being made to pay for the anarchy produced by the agencies who market this soon to be impossible dream. To simply respond with a crude tax is like a neanderthal man trying to repair a computer with a club. We need a long term plan for a PUBLICLY OWNED, FREE, INTEGRATED TRANSPORT SYSTEM CAPABLE OF MOVING PEOPLE QUICKLY AND COMFORTABLY WHENEVER AND WHEREVER THEY WISH TO GO. Imagine roads emptied of private cars where driverless taxis can safely achieve this type of freedom to move around. no drink driving. no carnage on the roads. safe for the cyclist

    BNFL in Hunterston used to bus their 800 strong workforce. it can be done if we have the will and the wit to do it. kinda rules the tories out doesn’t it? But lets not throw the baby out with the bath water. the greens have raised an important issue so lets see the Scots taking a world lead on this issue

  20. Peter Marjoram says:

    I take it (forgive me if I am mistaken) that this cost is only for “employee” parking spaces, by which I understand as “employee only” parking spaces. So if there are parking spaces at a place of work, which are not dedicated as “staff only”, and are available to anybody visiting a place, as at mine, then there would be no penalty.

  21. Jbp101 says:

    Put a stop to that SNP parking tax. The Tories had the opportunity to do that in the budget negotiations but instead chose to grandstand about a referendum that may or may not be called and would almost certainly be refused until it was politically untenable to resist.

  22. Davy says:


    I am sure Ruth Davidson will soon come charging to the rescue on the back of a buffalo, ready to save Scotland from the evil parking tax.

    With her sprog under one arm and Jamie Greene under the other, why “Jamie Greene”, well you never know when she may need a spare tit.

  23. Greannach says:

    After Ross Thompson’s failed attempt at groping for fame, I wonder if Jamie-Lee is trying to wrest the Crown of Twitter Twat from the now unfashionably-bearded member (ooh, matron!) from Aberdeen South.

  24. defo says:

    They’re dead, it’s nearly over, and they really do know it.
    This is just headless chicken material.

    Workplace parking tax (if it’s ever implemented) will hit the less well off most.
    He should be bigging it up!

  25. Tom says:

    Can I just point out, if the tories didn’t want this then they could have backed the Scottish budget and then the SNP wouldn’t have had to make a deal with the Greens to introduce this.

    Also I believe Doctors and nurses are to be exempt. But I could be wrong, so don’t shout at me if they’re not.

  26. Osirisja says:

    Probably worth pointing out that the WPL was introduced in England in the Transport Act, 2000, by the Labour Party. It was only enforced by Nottingham council in 2012. In Scotland, it has only be introduced this month for consultation, by the Greens. In both cases, it is a power that is proposed to be passed to local authorities.

  27. Macart says:

    @Socratese and Clootie

    Pretty much as expected then.

    Just so people are crystal clear. The amendment was to extend article 50 and the amendment was defeated.

    Still feeling strong and stable folks?

    On the subject of Mr Greene… 🙄

  28. Illy says:

    @thomas brotherston:

    The problem with your attitude is that sometimes you need a private car.

    I have a hobby which takes me to remote areas across Europe, with the equivalent of 5-7 large, heavy suitcases of stuff, on random weekends. The other people who join me come from all over Europe as well.

    Public transport is totally the wrong solution to my transport needs. If it could handle me and my group, then it would be completely overkill for normal use.

    Depending on how often people in my hobby travel, the choice is between owning a car and renting one for specific trips. Public transport, with changeovers, is just not a realistic option.

  29. Gerry says:


    Kevin Scofield on twitter just now…

    “If you think the Tories are at war now, just wait till you see the story breaking at 8pm. #staytuned”

  30. Brian Powell says:


    Hospitals are exempt, entirely. Everywhere else it is up to the Council, they are not obliged to do it.

  31. Wee Alex says:

    Ruthie is keeping a very low profile. Being groomed as Westminster leader behind the scenes?

    Whatever option she takes, she will be under scrutiny that she has never seen before and I don’t mean the fawning Sky and BBC news.

    If she watched today in Westminster I guess an extended maternity leave is on the cards.

  32. Ronin Italia says:

    I’m not in Scotland so won’t be directly affected, so weigh my opinions appropriately. I don’t see the point in getting worked up over a tax that is unlikely to be implemented by anyone barring perhaps any Labour or Tory councils, and if they do it’ll count against them. Sounds like giving plenty rope to me. Whatever, it’s a relatively small thing in the overall issue.

  33. Capella says:

    He is “electioneering”. But he’s not in the same class as his Westminster disaster management team. So his message is about to be drowned out by the gales of outrage over BREXIT.

    Poor Jamie. Too slow witted for the B team.

  34. yesindyref2 says:

    Perhaps more to the point is this from his tweet:

    Nicola Sturgeon’s unfair workplace parking levy

    which is an outright lie. The guy is a liar, he lies.

    We shouldn’t become so used to lies from Unionists and the anti-SNP mob that we don’t even notice them any more.

  35. cynicalHighlander says:

    Just realised there is no Deputy PM. wonder why.

  36. Effijy says:

    Not at all bad news!
    It yet again shows how Pathetic the Tories leading lights are!
    You just know that a Red and Blue Tory run council will try to apply the tax.
    The Voters who NEED a car to do their job will just vote SNP and dump Green 2nd vote.

    Just an unimportant snipped on the BBC news.
    Tory controlled NHS England has had its worst ever
    A & E waiting times since records began.

    Not even 85% of patients were treated in three agreed times
    While the target was set at 95%.

    This among one of the mildest winters ever.
    Can you imagine their shambolic performance
    If the streets were covered in I ice and a Flu epidemic broke out?

    Don’t worry the BBC promise the Tories that caused it are going to look at it? lol

    Back to major important news concerning pigeon droppings?

    SNP Please announce your superior figures, confirm that you pay our Nurses more
    Than Englad’s, how we have never forced our Doctors to go on strike nor impose
    Unfair contracts on them.

    Might want to add how foreign NHS workers were made to feel unwelcome by Westminster
    And new applications by EU medical workers fell by 90%.

    Nothing more important than your health and nothing better than an SNP Government to protect it.

  37. Republicofscotland says:

    Maybe the dummy Greene, thinks everyone else is also a dummy. Greene’s political career so far has also been, like his Tweets, one big exaggeration.

  38. Breeks says:

    On the subject of counting, how does 1 EU Nation wanting to extend Article 50 achieve it unilaterally, when such an extension is actually the prerogative of the other 27 Nations, each with a sovereign veto?

  39. HandandShrimp says:

    Labour abstaining on A50 extension looks more like Corbyn aiming to land the Tories with the blame for a no deal Brexit than specifically anti-SNP. 43 rebels in a whipped abstain would suggest there is disquiet about Corbyn’s slash and burn politics.

  40. HandandShrimp says:

    Is Kate Hoey now in the DUP?

  41. CameronB Brodie says:

    I like to look for good in bad, so perhaps this is simply an indication of his ethical approach to open governance. Full disclosure of the evolution of his values and reasoning. The lad needs praise, or was that guidance?

  42. Ghillie says:

    Could those rebel Labour MPs be a crack in the dam?

    As for Mr Greene. He is just full of spite and not much else.

  43. Alasdair Galloway says:

    In fairness Jamie Green is so not the only one. One zoomer had it in a letter in the Sunday Herald and the Scottish Conservative Twitter account has been putting it about as well. If the employer charges employees then VAT would be added, which would take the bill to the employee to £480 – perhaps another example of “almost”?

  44. frogesque says:

    8.00pm watershed now past.

    C’mon, spill it!

  45. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Oh dear, it’s hard to know where to start with this pathetic wee storm in a teacup thimble. If the BritNats were even halfway honest, they would call it a Green car tax. But what’s new?

    Some enterprising journo or researcher should be asking every BritNat-dominated council what their actual intentions are over this. Then we would really know something closer to the whole truth.

    Meantime, thanks to the utterly conflicted BritNats in the House of the Living Dead, UKGov suffers another humiliating defeat, thus rendering Dis-May’s next visit to the Continent entirely useless before she even sets out. As Hala Gorani on CNN called it tonight, the UKGov “strategy” is just “I’m going to keep punching myself in the face until you agree to what I want”. While the intransigent hardliners keep stalling everything, knowing full well that with Conficted Corbyn in so-called “opposition”, they can win if they just keep doing that.

    And thus we are all pitchforked one lurch closer to the precipice.

  46. Nana says:

    The big reveal!

    website won’t load, must be very busy

  47. Dan says:

    @ Illy
    It’s not clear if you own and use a car to commute to work as well as / or only for your hobby. If it’s the latter then a hire car or access to vehicle from a car pool could be an option to look into.
    I think Thomas’s point was that we need to make considerable changes in the way we live to have any significant impact.
    I used to have a motorsport hobby but now choose to get my wee adrenaline hit and exercise enjoying my right to roam around Scotland on a mountain bike.

    Burning fuel in cars and also to heat our poor housing stock is one thing. The ridiculous amounts of waste we create is another. It’s a damning indictment that a supposed advance society such as ours cannot adequately and properly process the waste that it generates.
    A couple of examples: 1) As individuals it is truly staggering just how much garbage people throw out of cars. I have collected car fulls of discarded waste along the B roads where I live. I got the place spotless then in 3 months I could see it building up so cleaned it again. Out of interest I audited what I collected the second time and in a 2 mile stretch after 90 days I managed to collect 16 carrier bags full averaging over 60 items per bag.
    2) I also duly noted and ultimately cleaned up the commercial waste BT / Openreach and their contractors had discarded as they installed broadband infrastructure in the area. Clearly they as an organisation failed to adhere to their own environmental policies.
    The local council apparently lack environmental assessment capabilities in the work permits they issue to these large utility companies.

    So many people don’t seem to consider the implications of the waste they discard. Field mice drowning in empty juice tins, horses and farm animals getting tangled in plastic pallet strapping, munching old food wrappers or having shattered glass fragments from discarded bottles in the field they graze or where our food grows.

    I’m actually thinking of lobbying all these energy drink companies to start putting even more sugar in the drinks they produce as it’s clear even with the current amount those quaffing it still don’t have enough energy to put the tin in a bin!

  48. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    HandandShrimp @ 19:36,

    Methinks she has always been there in spirit, if not in body.

  49. frogesque says:

    Kevin Schofield
    Kevin Schofield
    In an interview with
    , business minister Richard Harrington:
    * Says Tory eurosceptic MPs are ‘("Tractor" - Ed)s’ who should quit and join Nigel Farage’s new party.
    * Says the Malthouse Compromise is ‘fanciful nonsense’
    * Slams PM’s Brexit strategy

  50. frogesque says:

    Bit of a non- event

  51. Petra says:

    We make comparisons between what SLab politicians have to say, SNP gripe about, and Labour run Wales. Does anyone know anything about the situation in Tory run England in relation to employee parking levies?

  52. alexicon says:

    The SNP government should never have signed up to this green tax.

  53. alexicon says:

    Green Party tax.

  54. TonyH says:

    Signing up to the green tax was a price worth paying to get the budget through. The SG must get the message over that it’s at local councils discretion whether to implement the parking charges. It’s another PR war that must be won.

  55. Marie Clark says:

    Dumfries & Galloway council have already ruled this out. In all honesty, I can’t see too many councils who will be willing to implement this charge.

    Oh well, when they all start moaning about not having enough cash,we’ll be able to reply, newz the powers, mibbies in a wee whiny voice like they used to do. Step forward Dippity Dug.

  56. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    I’ll say it again in a different form:

    Will someone please demand of Jamie Green (ironic name, that) and all the other hysterical detractors, just who do they think will actually implement this levy?

  57. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    me at 20:25,

    Greene, not Green (except in political experience, that is).

  58. defo says:

    Well done. I sometimes carry an empty carrier when out wandering, but you really clean up!
    The American story teller David Sedaris is worth a google.
    A man with a black bag on a mission too. V funny.

  59. Fireproofjim says:

    Homage to Question Time

    Oor Billy left Pacific Quay,
    With blessings from the BBC.
    With sash and flute and orange coat
    Set off for Stranraer and the boat.
    July the 12th, it was the date
    And it was time to celebrate
    In Belfast by the River Lagan
    The Festival of Knuckle Draggin’

    And with him comrades Loyal and True.
    Defenders ‘gainst the Papist crew.
    From Coatbridge, Ayr and fair Larkhall
    They rallied to the sacred call.
    They were no ordinary team.
    They thought they were the Orange Cream.

    Their spirits rose as sea miles passed
    With Special Brew and sweet Buckfast,
    The hours flew by in song and jest
    And how King Billy was the best,
    While each compared their Loyal tattoos
    Till sleep descended, full of booze.

    Now at the dawn they proudly sat
    With banner flute and bowler hat.
    “Right lads, tak up yer flutes and drum.
    We’ll let them hear oor lodge has come.
    Right, Sandy, gie the drum a bash
    And doon the gangway tae The Sash!”

    So brave they marched along the Quay.
    The banners flew aloft and free,
    But something was a wee bit troublin’.
    A sign said “Welcome Friends to Dublin.”
    All looked around in doubt and fear.
    “Oh how the hell did we get here?”
    Cried Billy, of the orange coat.
    “Who bought the tickets for the boat?”

    A burly polis soon came by.
    “Now what’s all this? This hue and cry?
    Put down yer flags and flutes and beer.
    We’ll have none o’ this nonsense here.
    So step inside my big black van.
    We’re off to see the justice man.”

    And so into the court they trudge
    To stand before the local judge.
    “Now lads.” he says, “The Boyne, you know,
    It was three hundred years ago.
    But you’ll get time to have a look
    Into our Irish history book.
    Three months behind the bars and locks
    For breach of peace down at the docks.”

    But then a problem soon befell.
    They could not find a single cell.
    The governor of Dublin clink said
    “I’ll be damned if you should think
    I’ll take another Orange crew.
    I’ve just got rid of last year’s two.”
    They just need straw upon the floor
    And good strong locks upon the door.

    So if you go to Dublin City
    It really would be quite a pity
    To miss the latest thing on view
    In that fair city’s splendid zoo.
    For sulking in their fetid lairs
    Are Billy and the Orange Bears.

  60. Legerwood says:

    Petra says:
    14 February, 2019 at 8:13 pm
    We make comparisons between what SLab politicians have to say, SNP gripe about, and Labour run Wales. Does anyone know anything about the situation in Tory run England in relation to employee parking levies?


    As far as I am aware only one council in England has implemented the WPL – Nottingham.

  61. cynicalHighlander says:


    Very good.

  62. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Legerwood @ 20:48,

    So after all that local fake concern, the legislation already exists in England?

    Enacted by whom, perchance…?

  63. Legerwood says:

    Effijy @ 7.15 PM
    “”This among one of the mildest winters ever.
    Can you imagine their shambolic performance
    If the streets were covered in I ice and a Flu epidemic broke out?””

    It did say in one of the reports on the A&E figures for NHS England that the current figures were actually WORSE than the figures last winter when the ‘flu outbreak was at its height.

    This certainly shows how bad things have become – Brexit and all the doctors and nurses leaving won’t be helping

  64. Legerwood says:

    Robert J. Sutherland

    Legislation to allow Councils to use the levy originally brought in by the Labour Government. Left on the statute books by the Tories.

    Not sure of the composition of Nottingham Council.

    Lots of informative posts on this topic on a previous thread around the time the WPL was announced.

  65. stewartb says:

    This Workplace Parking levy (WPL) issue is getting blown up out of all proportion given where things stand at present.

    1) Its inclusion in the SG’s budget was a pragmatic move to get the budget approved – it was the Greens’ condition to support the budget: other parties did not engage except for the ludicrous LidDems condition of ditching support for indy for a period. This is what happens in mature parliaments elected by PR – telling me that Westminster and its FPTP system is an exemplar of the efficiency and effectiveness of governance would be a very hard sell!

    2) what the SG accepted has caused NO change EXCEPT giving LAs in Scotland a power (i.e. more power) to do something if they wish to use it – a power that Labour in Westminster gave to English LAs many years ago and one that, later, the Tories in government specifically chose not to remove because of support in principle for ‘localism’ (documented evidence available including via Hansard)

    3) as we know a WPL has only been introduced in one place so far in England – in Nottingham City by a Labour council. Labour won more seats on the Council at the election after its introduction. (Other LAs in England are considering using WPLs: London introduced a congestion charge to address similar issues.)

    4) I have read on twitter that the introduction of a WPL was in the manifestos of Labour for previous council elections in Glasgow and Edinburgh.

    5) It is my understanding that not only can an individual LA decide to introduce a levy or NOT but it can also, should it choose to introduce a levy, decide on: (i) the number of parking places at a work place that will be included in the levy scheme; (ii) the geographic area that will be covered; (iii) the scale of the charge; (iv) the nature/extent of exemptions – again, should any WPL be decided upon in the first place.

    6) Any LA opting to introduce a WPL – as Nottingham has done – has the power to decide how the revenue is spent, including hypothecated for spend on public transport.

    7) Any LA opting to introduce a WPL – as Nottingham has done – will face the electorate who can vote for a party that wishes to reverse the policy if they stand on such a platform.

    This series of policy on/policy off decisions faced now by LAs don’t involve the SG. Due to being in a minority government, the SG did a deal which (only) enabled enhanced powers for Scotland’s LAs. Another government in the UK- in Westminster – chose to achieve the majority needed to get its policies voted through by using a very different approach!!!

    Upon independence, we will all need to get used to dealing with trade-offs, with facing up to the challenges of change, without going into ‘over-drive’!

  66. Thepnr says:

    The ability to levy this tax by local councils was first introduced for England and Wales by the Labour government in 2000.

    No council chose to introduce it until Nottingham did in 2012, companies with more than 10 parking spaces had to pay this tax directly to the council. In Nottingham all NHS premises are exempt for their own employees parking spaces but schools and colleges are not. The cost of parking in schools in Nottingham has been passed to the teachers who use the spaces, same goes if you provide spaces for students!

    Bristol, Cambridge, Oxford and Reading are other councils considering introducing the charge but have yet to do so. I can’t see this being rushed out by a Scottish council anytime soon, the public will know who to point the finger at if they do and it will be their own council.

    Read somewhere else too that COSLA are fully in favour of councils in Scotland having this new power.

  67. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Legerwood @ 21:00,

    Many thanks. BritNat hypocrisy knows no bounds.

    But what’s new there then?! =cynical laugh=

  68. CameronB Brodie says:

    OT. re. the privatization of the BBC. Would that include the security service ‘handlers’ embedded in the organisation?

  69. Essexexile says:

    That’s the problem with being dependent on extreme political factions (DUP, Green, UKIP) to support your agenda.
    You’re always in danger of alienating your core voters.
    Still, this isn’t much of a story tbh and, as I predicted a week or two back (when others were frothing about the Greens) a small compromise and the budget got through.
    Politics in the real world.

  70. Robert Peffers says:

    @thomas brotherston says: 14 February, 2019 at 5:37 pm:

    ! … i have no party allegiance whatsoever however one thing that this issue does raise is the absolutely untenable issue of the use private cars.”

    Where you been for the last decade or two, Thomas?

    Almost all of Scottish electricity is already generated by renewable sources and those that are not are scheduled to at most, be only used as standby in the near future.

    To the extent that electric car charging is free in many places in Scotland. Here is a cut and paste I just copied from the web:-

    “At the start of 2018, Scotland had 10.3 gigawatts (GW) of installed renewable electricity capacity. Renewable electricity generation in Scotland was 24,936 GWh in 2017, making up 68% of gross electricity consumption. Scottish renewable generation makes up approximately 25% of total UK renewable generation (down from 32% in 2014). In 2014, Scotland exported over 24 per cent of generation.

    Have you got that Thomas? Scotland generates enough electricity that Scotland exported over 24% of the electricity generated and that means we not only generate enough for all Scotland’s needs but have enough left over to export just under 25%, (mainly to England).

    That renewable power of generated electricity is free for those with electric cars in Scotland and it is thus free of all harmful emissions. (It isn’t free to charge electric vehicles in England).

    The thing about renewables is the fuel to drive the generators makes its own way to the generator and not only is it emission free but there is no waste ash or other waste material to take away by road, sea or rail.

  71. Robert Peffers says:

    @Jbp101 says: 14 February, 2019 at 5:45 pm:

    ” … Put a stop to that SNP parking tax. The Tories had the opportunity to do that in the budget negotiations but instead chose to grandstand about a referendum that may or may not be called and would almost certainly be refused until it was politically untenable to resist.”

    Absolute balderdash. No one has the power to prevent a referendum in the United Kingdom. Referendums are not against any laws under either Scots or English law.

  72. Tackety Beets says:

    Well done Dan, I am always amazed when the grass cutter passes along the A96 & exposes the rubbish. Its horrific.

    A quick google , it looks like Labour introduced the WPL circa 2003

    “This note describes the Workplace Parking Levy (WPL), a policy introduced by the Labour Government that enables local authorities to charge businesses for every employee who parks in the area. It outlines the policy of successive governments and provides information on the only scheme currently in place, in Nottingham.

    Under the Transport Act 2000 local traffic authorities in England and Wales, outside London, may introduce a WPL to help tackle congestion in towns and cities. This far, Nottingham is
    the only local authority area to have sought and obtained approval for a scheme, which will begin on 1 April 2012. That may change as local authorities seek new streams of revenue to
    compensate for reductions in central government grants.”

  73. ahundredthidiot says:

    The Greens would make more sense if they asked for an initiative whereby households with an annual income over, say £75,000, had to get 100% of their electricity use from renewable sources via their supplier. (I accept policing this would be problematic)

    But no…..even the stupid greens are suggesting an attack on the average earning working man and woman…..and not one council will implement it so it is a great big waste of everybodys time and effort, achieving nothing – thats the Greens for you.

    100% renewable energy costs more, so its only fair the most wealthy lead the way…..that’s how society is supposed to work.

    Over time, renewable costs come down and then the earning figure can stay static (capturing more over time) or be lowered at a sensible rate.

    I don’t earn that much, but I do the renewable thing just for the smug factor.

  74. Robert Peffers says:

    What do Wingers make of this that I just had come up on YouTube on my bit where it says, “May be of interest to you”, where they choose stuff according to what you have watched in the recent past.

    If true it really is a shocker:-

    And I’m not very easy to shock.

  75. Lenny Hartley says:

    Fireproofjim Superb thanks

  76. Liz g says:

    Robert Peffers @ 9.29
    I’d be very wary of that lot Robert.
    UK colum are a pale imitation of Info Wars,they are, if not actually,certainly very sympathetic to UKIP.
    They see conspiracy everywhere!
    So unless and until this is confirmed by more credible sources I’d take it with a pinch of salt!-roll-

  77. Wow! How fundamundily impressive is that? Seven times champion in a competition that includes Kezia Dudgdale, Iain Gray, James Kelly and Ross “I can’t stand up for falling down” Thomson.

    I feel this competition needs elevating in stature to a full blown annual awards ceremony.

    Congratulations too, to Jamie’s surgeon.. those lobotomy scars are near invisible.

  78. cynicalHighlander says:

    Liz g


  79. Dan says:

    @ defo & Tackety Beets
    Aye, no half measures from me. Very few other people will do it because it is dirty and hard work raking through hedgerows and ditches collecting garbage.
    Also recently cleaned up a beach with the help of a pal in December. That was another car load of plastic rubbish taken to the recycling centre but most of it will have ended up in landfill as it can’t be processed properly with the facilities we currently have available.
    There will have been a significant calorific value to that plastic waste if it could have been harnessed.

    Made the beach tidy for loony dooking at new year though!

    There is an issue here that folk don’t care as much because they have less of an attachment to the land we live on.
    In Italy and I understand parts of Scandinavia for example people often have cabins in rural areas where they go for weekends and holidays. They have access and use the land so they have more respect for it.
    Where as here…hmm

    IIRC I’ve heard Lesley Riddoch highlighting that power is so centralised here that even with local councils based in towns, rural people feel powerless and disconnected in their abilities to get stuff dealt with.
    It is relevant to this article as the funds local authorities need are spent in ways that often aren’t efficient. A cold snap or snow and it’s guaranteed resources are put to use in the main population areas to grit and clear pavements as that is where the majority of people are.
    A couple of weeks back it snowed a bit in my wee village and was then minus 8, no sign of council workers for those couple of icy days. Then it became mild and forecast to rain. Out comes the council two days late and spreads grit which gets washed away the next day…
    It would be much better to have half a dozen local residents take on the task of clearing or gritting the small amounts of pavements we have as and when required. That would require a sea change in mentality of people though. They are currently happy to whinge that nobody has cleared their pavement, but ask them to help solve the issue and mumble mumble.

    Our local authority has started to charge for garden waste removal. Crazy really as we all have gardens where we can compost it ourselves but most folk can’t be bothered with that. So a large lorry burning fuel come to collect the waste and take it miles away for processing. I’m looking to see if we can get something sorted locally with our adjacent community farm project so it is kept local and made use of.

  80. Sarah says:

    O/T The petition to Westminster for Art 50 to be extended, brought to my attention by someone here yesterday, was at 56000 and is now at over 75000.

    I’ve been thinking that if a million people signed the petition it would get media attention on the popular mood being in favour of at the least NOT Exiting in March.

    I have shared the link with my local Yes group and hope other Wingers will spread the word.

  81. cynicalHighlander says:


    Get a wormery to process all your food waste as well providing rich compost and liquid fertilizer(worm pee).

  82. Essexexile says:

    You must watch some seriously hardcore political geekery to get that coming up in your recommendations Robert.
    I just get Giraffe Vs Crocodile, ships caught by monster waves and Top ten demolition fails!

  83. Iain mhor says:

    @Fireproofjim 8:36pm

    Ha! That was class, nice one.

  84. “An SNP amendment, backed by the Liberal Democrats and calling for Britain’s departure from the EU on 29 March to be delayed by three months, was defeated by 93 votes to 315 after most Labour MPs abstained.”
    What’s new?

  85. doug_bryce says:

    It is time for Labour and Tory MPs to wake up and see the Brexit reality staring them in the face.

    Which is that, after tonight’s demonstration that the government simply doesn’t have the votes to push through a Brexit plan of any description with simply its MPs and those of Northern Ireland’s DUP, all MPs face a simple choice.

    Forget the idea floated by Olly Robbins in a Brussels bar of a 21-month Brexit delay – which was overheard by my ITV News colleague Angus Walker. I cannot find a single senior serious person in or around the EU who thinks it is going to happen.

    Truthfully they regard it as an example of eccentric British humour.

    Second, there is literally no possibility of the backstop being time-limited or altered to give the UK a unilateral right of exit.

    After tonight’s voting debacle, no one in the EU thinks that she would secure a majority for her deal even if they were to give Theresa May everything she and the ERG Brexiters say they want and eviscerated the backstop.

    The EU has given up on Theresa May as the deliverer of any Brexit and is now pinning its hopes on MPs of all parties coalescing around a customs-union version of the long-term relationship between the UK and EU – which would turn the hated backstop into the bridge to a permanent solution that it was always designed to be.

    A customs-union Brexit as the only compromise deal on offer will test to breaking point the unity of Tory and Labour parties.

    But if it is not seized, then the default option of a no-deal Brexit becomes the vivid reality.

    There is an outside chance that as and when this reality bites, MPs will belatedly think it is all too hard for them and decide to put the choice back to us in a referendum.

    But that is a remote prospect, not least because proponents of a people’s vote are being hopelessly naive if they think the EU will role over like a lovestruck poodle and simply give us all the time we need, to prevaricate and dither for years yet to come.

    No this really is make your mind up time for MPs. Theresa May and the ERG Brexiters can say all they want that nothing is changed by tonight’s vote.

    They could not be more wrong.

  86. Lenny Hartley says:

    Dan re waste, I have recently been talking to Beach Buddies Isle of Man, a voluntary organisation who have worked miracles changing the mindset of their Nations adults and Kids.
    They started cleaning beaches around a decade back and have had thousands of volunteers turn up over the years, they give talks at Skools and now after about ten years estimate that litter has reduced by up to 90% . Thankfully the Manx people have bought into the concept of not littering whether it be beach, dale or town. Here on Arran , I walk Brodick Beach Daily with my dug, notwithstanding that part of the links used to be a rubbish tip the amount of plastic etc is incredible, I have been told that a lot of it comes from the Campbelltown Rubbish Tip, I dont know if that is true or not, but we have an enormous task in educating pScots in taking pride in their Country and that includes not littering. We have groups on Arran who really care for the environment and have great wee ideas, like in Whiting Bay a local cafe will give a free Coffee if you take in a bucket of beach waste. hopefully there will be a Beach Cleaning operation up and running fairly soon. There has been beach cleaning before but not a regular occurrence.

  87. Dr Jim says:

    I guess if I had a company with say 20 spaces for parking but maybe only ten employees I’d put up a sign reading parking all day for £5 and those ten would pay for any charge that might be imposed by the council and my own employees would still be free and other business drivers would get a better deal than a public car park or a meter

    The Tories would probably be objecting then to cheap parking for the poor

  88. Dan says:


    What is this food waste you speak of. Nowt goes to waste with me.
    I finally managed to get the last half dozen of my carrots out the ground yesterday after that cold spell. Made a fine soup and FYI I even trim round the very top of the carrot so none is wasted. I found out that the top leaves of carrots when youngish and fresh are actually very good eating to. Likewise beetroot leaves and stalks.
    I’ve got my own composts heaps on the go.
    Also collected huge bags of seaweed over festive break at the coast to bring home with me to put in this year’s tattie trenches.
    My car was reeking of a maritime theme for a week or so after that.

    When you get out and about to see it, we really do have an amazingly rich and diverse range of resources and fertile land that can be utilised.
    Winter is a bind though with the short dark and cold days. We really need to get the housing stock improved to an affordable and decent standard, and with affordable renewable energy for heating, life could be so much better for the many currently living in substandard conditions.

  89. Robert Peffers says:

    @Liz g says: 14 February, 2019 at 9:40 pm:

    ” … I’d be very wary of that lot Robert.”

    I am very wary of them, Liz g, but their clip says the article is lifted from the Sun.

    ” … So unless and until this is confirmed by more credible sources I’d take it with a pinch of salt!-roll-“

    That, is my point – I don’t trust the Sun either. Mind you they are quoting some really heavy people and that leaves them open to court actions.

  90. Liz g says:

    Way off topic…
    ‘re this story about the English girl who went to Syria and now wants to come back to England to “have her baby safely”??
    They keep sayin she’s heavily pregnant… I thought Heavily Pregnant women don’t Fly??
    Something’s no right!

  91. yesindyref2 says:

    Seaweed is good as a catalyst for a composter, use layers every so often. If you can get cheap wood lengths, get a stack of 3 foot long 6 to 9 inch wide planks. Jigsaw or carefully chisel an inch notch both sides and both ends about 3 to 6 inches from the end. Voila, you can make up your open composter in layers as you go along. Don’t put in too much grass cutting, or have a separate one, as grass is slow to compost, it’s more a mulch.

  92. Robert Louis says:

    I have just been watching Newsnight on the BBC propaganda channel, and BBC failings aside, listening to Anna Soubray talking of how ex UKIP extremists had taken over the Tory party makes the brexit catastrophe all the more scary. Labour taken over by extreme left loonies, and the Tories constituency associations taken over by ex-UKIP members.

    Westminster is on a one-way track to hard no-deal brexit by default. These are worrying times. Neither Labour or Tories are fit to govern.

    Honestly, we might not have time for a referendum to save Scotland. In the worst case scenario, the Scottish government might just have to take executive action, to ensure Scotland’s survival, and unilaterally temporarily suspend the union treaty.

    I never thought I’d ever see such an out of touch, out of control, dysfunctional government in London.

  93. yesindyref2 says:

    Activator, that’s the word, better than catalyst.

  94. ScottieDog says:

    Aye seaweed is supposed to be very good although we compost just about everything. Also we get free woodchip – tree surgeon dumps it as they otherwise have to dispose of it at a cost. Really good activator for the compost heap. Need a woody mix or you can end up with too much nitrogen.

    Woodchip itself is also good as mulch. We also pilfer cardboard from everywhere – and carpet!

  95. ronnie anderson says:


    The Marques of Bute wants the Scottish Tax Payers to fund the rebuilding of St Peters seminary because its a listed building , it wasn’t fit for purpose when it was constructed & certainley not fit for purpose now .

    Last week it was announced that the Scottish Gov would pay compensation to the abused victims of Smyllum Park some £ 10 million pounds ? is why is the Scottish Gov paying for what is the Catholic Church’s responsibility , the Diocese of Glasgow & the Vatican are responsible .

    Scottish Taxpayer have already payed Smyllum to care for those children which they abused .
    Scottish Taxpayers contributed to the building of St Peters .

    Enough is enough Scottish Gov have better to do with our money than give it away to the Catholic Church who have Billions in the Vatican Bank .

    (Dont look on this post as sectarian it is not meant to cause a sectarian devide )

  96. Tackety Beets says:

    Good man Dan, sounds like we are on same page.
    BTW, I plant my carrots on a dreel, like farmers do their neeps, so they are above ground level to defy carrot fly. Easy to keep from weeds etc but by far the best crop I ever had.

    I have argued since late 80s that UK Gvt should have taken a stance & made it policy that no plastic whatsoever should be in the UK except recycleable or biodegradeable.
    I could write all night about recycle Tax, which if implimented would force manufacturers to produce products that can be repaired or easily recycled.

  97. Petra says:

    So the bottom line is that Jamie Greene’s party, the Tories in England, have already agreed that the Councils in England can impose a employee-parking levy, so what’s the hypocritical simpleton going on about?

  98. geeo says:

    I wish folk would make up their minds.

    Parking levy: (FMQ’s).

    Jackson Carlaw: “This ESSENPEE BAD Gov has starved Councils of money, services being underfunded, etc”

    Nicola: “Have they used the new parking levy powers yet,or maybe the extra CT raising powers to bring in more money” ?

    Carlaw: “ummm..,..”

    The above completely neuters unionists banging on about lack of Local Authority cash.

    Another example of SNP doing feck all huh ? (Sarcasm, obviously).

  99. boris says:

    Yet again the USA, UK and France, under the umbrella of NATO, repeatedly violated international law in attacking a sovereign nation for no justifiable reason.

    Also dammed are the British created, “Oscar” winning, trained, financed and supported “White Helmets” who, time and time again staged spurious “fake news”, chemical attack reports serving the UK, USA and French military in their intent to bring about regime change inside Syria.

  100. Sarah says:

    @ Tackety beets: I thought one had to put barriers round carrots so carrot fly goes past over the top, not raise the crop up? Or do you then put barriers around as well?

    Spring is coming a bit too quick – should have got the seaweed, weeded, collected the dung, pruned, ordered the seeds etc by now!

  101. Legerwood says:

    Liz g says:
    14 February, 2019 at 10:55 pm
    Way off topic…
    ‘re this story about the English girl who went to Syria and now wants to come back to England to “have her baby safely”??
    They keep sayin she’s heavily pregnant… I thought Heavily Pregnant women don’t Fly??
    Something’s no right!””


    She does not need to fly. She could come overland from Syria – trains etc – or by sea. If she is going to be allowed back in of course.

  102. Lenny Hartley says:

    Yesindy2ref in the Aran Islands off Galway, its a little windblown so there is no soil, the have very small fields enclosed by a drystane dyke, the grow tatties in a mixture of seaweed and sand.

  103. Liz g says:

    Ledgerwood @ 11.26
    Yes of course she could,but that could still mean that she won’t be in the UK to give birth..
    It’s the emphasis on her being “Heavily” Pregnant that’s catching my attention..
    In the realm of what is the agenda of the media here,not the practicalities of her travel… It just seems strange!

  104. Bobp says:

    Corrado mella 4.44pm.Oh it will happen, and it will be all the fault of those bad essenpee who made them do it.

  105. Liz g says:

    Aw imagine that… Concentration Camps were originally only to feed people,sayith the mogg.
    And all of us with the benefit of hindsight don’t know why they were so necessary… Disgusting..
    More disgusting.. The question that wasn’t asked
    Are People in concentration camps to be given free food or should they have to do a bit of work for it?
    Because none of us can use the benefit of hindsight to work out the Tory answer to that…eh!

  106. Robert Peffers says:

    @Essexexile says: 14 February, 2019 at 10:11 pm:

    ” … You must watch some seriously hardcore political geekery to get that coming up in your recommendations Robert.”

    ” … I just get Giraffe Vs Crocodile, ships caught by monster waves and Top ten demolition fails!”

    Oh! I do get lots of dog rescue stuff too as I’ve been looking on-line to get a wee rescue Papillon to replace my wee four legged friend that died. It isn’t that I don’t really want a new pup as I have always trained my own dogs but at my age it wouldn’t be fair on a pup as I’d probably pop my clogs and a young dog would need rehomed.

    Then I get lots on computer gaming stuff as I’ve been into gaming for as long as there has been self programmed games like Pong – the first basic game supposedly tennis.

    Anyway I do not watch TV or go to the cinema so I get nothing of that sort. I’m subscribed to several News Agencies and of course the UK parliaments and several political blogs.

    When I was less ill & disabled I ran my own large website, (when you had to learn to hand write the HTML code yourself). I had hundreds of pages of my own works. Poems, short stories and Lowland Scots language stuff. Not to mention I made films and videos since I was a boy.

    One thing for sure – I’ve never suffered from boredom.

    Mind you I have a very long history in computers. As an apprentice with the MOD I did a spell in a then top secret computer. Back in the 1950s.

    It used thermionic valves, post office telephone exchange relays and electro-mechanical, Post Office exchange, uniselectors. It was massive and built into a couple of very large Aircraft style hangers. Yet it was actually hardly as powerful as a decent modern pocket calculator and well below the power of a modern mobile phone. So I also get loads of electronics and computer stuff.

  107. Bobp says:

    Liz g.11.39pm. I think the agenda of the britnat media here,is to stir up pro brexit hatred against any johnny furriner having the temerity to want to settle in engerland.

  108. Bobp says:

    Should have meant anti brexit hatred.apologies.

  109. Dan says:

    Yep, a plastic tax has been on my mind for a long time and even more so over the years I’ve been having to pick up the blasted stuff.
    Probably most of the 5.5 million people in Scotland use at least one plastic item per day like a food tray or cup.
    People will not stop buying a coffee, ready meal, or crisps because they are 1 pence dearer.
    1 pence tax per item at source of manufacture would generate £55,000 daily towards the setting up and running of reprocessing facilities.
    That doesn’t take into consideration the revenue or high embedded energy that could be recovered from the various grades of plastic being processed. You could probably power aspects of the plant from the processing of the raw materials.

    Currently it looks like it might fit under the remit of environmental policy which is devolved. Any future power grab by those crazies doon sooth may change that though.

    Some environmental stuff I do wonder about. The new V&A in Dundee and I understand Inverness Uni too, use vegware compostable plates and cups made out of plants. I find it hard to believe the costs and eco-credentials are better than using conventional plates and cutlery and industrial on site washing facilities.
    Have you ever worn out a conventional plate and stainless knife and fork?
    Think of how much of that vegware stuff is used daily and the constant need for trucks delivering boxes of new stock and collection of the used stuff which must go somewhere for processing.
    Fair enough using it at a one off event or festival over a long weekend, but at a venue with a permanent catering department serving meals, I’m not so sure.

  110. Bobp says:

    Up in socrates macsporrans turf at the moment visiting my yes converted big sis. Had a visit from one of her disabled friends.after listening to her rants about how she cannae staun yon sturgeon. Even after i pointed out scotlands benefits compared to england.prescription charges,tolls abolished,free university education,more social housing built,etc,etc,etc. She just stared blankly at me with a stupid bovine expression. Good luck Scotland in trying to enlighten (some) of these cretins.

  111. Tackety Beets says:

    Sarah @ 11.24

    Sorry nothing round carrots, just raised the soil up a good bit 9/10 inches & sew seeds along top.
    I have also had success in re-planting when thinning. Handy if you have a few blank bits. I can only suggest you experiment with a wee bit.
    Im not wanting pelters in Aug, smiley

  112. Liz g says:

    Robert Peffers @ 11.51
    If Pappions have stolen you heart I completely understand..
    Have you considered applying for an assistance dog?I
    They come in many sizes and you would be supported in your choices!
    Like Guide Dog’s these organisations always legally own the dog and should it ever need rehoming they are the one’s who deal with it… You infact cannot rehome or bequith the dog to anyone,they make the choices for the dog.
    Also if that’s not your cup of tea,and you are not committed to a small dog…. Retired racing greyhounds make wonderful pets…again the rescue agencies will work to match you and your dog… But also will take responsibility for the animal if you no longer can….
    Just a thought Robert,I hope you don’t mind my saying 🙂

  113. Bobp says:

    Should also say well done to the pensioners for independence stalls in argyll st today ie yesterday. Lovely folks.

  114. CameronB Brodie says:

    Robert Louis @11:06pm
    Piss-poor governance is an acceptable justification for self-determination, under international law.

  115. Az says:

    Funny that it rocketed him back like that.
    He is a rocket.

  116. chicmac says:

    In a separate but related incident, the Tory dominated Angus council has imposed car parking fees on previously free car parks throughout Angus.

    Here in Kirrie, the result has been:

    1. Empty car parks.

    2. A corresponding massive increase in traffic congestion as those who need to be in town park on the streets instead.

    3. A catastrophic drop in footfall in the town centre putting retail businesses at great risk, some having already gone to the wall.

  117. CameronB Brodie says:

    Having briefly experienced some very junior posts in the transport planning specter, more than simply a sandwich year, I’m not touching this one with a barge pole. Saying that, seeing as how there has been a bit of a South African theme about today/yesterday…


    Travel Demand Management Study
    Capricorn District Municipality

    14 DECEMBER 2010

  118. Breeks says:

    stewartb says:
    14 February, 2019 at 9:00 pm
    This Workplace Parking levy (WPL) issue is getting blown up out of all proportion given where things stand at present….


    Scotland has one of the most progressive governments in terms of Environmental policy; renewable energy, carbon capture, emission targets, etc… all promoted as good government and enlightened initiative.

    Suddenly, a green policy to incentivise a reduction in the use of cars is the work of the devil himself.

    See it for what it is. This is rank political opportunism from a wicked media which merely smells opportunity to attack, and do so by distorting the narrative accordingly. This is the Establishment media doing what it does best.

  119. yesindyref2 says:

    OT – defence
    This is pretty crazy, don’t know if it’s Brexit connected or just some silly UK National Shipbuilding Strategy madness.

    The engines would currently be made at GE in Rugby.

    The UK is a joke, and a bad one too.

  120. Ian R Murray says:

    Just a thought on the BBC rationale re The UKIP invitee with the season ticket to Question time.
    If you are seeking a diverse opinion for the program.
    Why is it the same bloke all the time ?
    If they can only find the one person with that particular opinion perhaps there are opinions with more support that they could include instead
    The Greens
    The Lib Dems
    The National
    Wings over Scotland
    Wee Ginger Dug
    Leslie Riddoch
    Church of Scotland rep

  121. Kangaroo says:

    BBC Producer verifies Douma chemical attack was STAGED.

    As if we didn’t know.

  122. Kangaroo says:

    Robert Peffers @9:29

    Fine to be wary as Lizg says but very likely true. There are just so many of these types of reports that some of them must be true. If this one is true then it could be regarded as Treason.

    Craig Murray has already done an excellent expose on the various dirty tricks that Westminster gets up to. Skripal poisoning, Trump dossier being examples. All about to come crashing down according to sources across the pond.

  123. Kangaroo says:

    Fireproofjim @8:36pm

    Choice poetry there. It’s a Keeper.

  124. Undeadshuan says:


    Whilst not doubting what you say about syria doume, zero hedge is not a reliable news source and i dont trust its content any more than i would trust bbc or daily mail content.

  125. Nana says:


    Westminster. The only place I know of where liars cannot be called to account. Because the liars created rules to protect themselves and their lies, from attack.

    The EU’s PGI (Protected Geographical Indication) system is vital in protecting the likes of Scotch Whisky, Scotch Beef and Scotch Lamb from counterfeits. My @theSNP colleague @DeidreBrock and I are calling on the UK Government to retain PGIs post #Brexit. Learn more below.

  126. Nana says:


    Simon Coveney
    ‘It is incredible, in my view, that the British parliament has allowed it come to this’

    TM is a dictator

    Six weeks tomorrow could mark the beginning of the end for the United Kingdom as we know it

  127. Nana says:

    Staff at French oil and gas giant Total have been told it is moving its trading operations from London to Geneva in September in a move affecting 200 jobs, Sky News understands.

    Brexit: the annals of emptiness

  128. Dorothy Devine says:

    Ronnie , totally agree about thon awful looking ‘award winning’ seminary.

    It is not the responsibility of the Scottish people or the Scottish Government it is the responsibility of the Catholic Church – if they want it ‘preserved’ then they preserve it.And who the hell slapped a preservation order on it anyway?

    Personally I think it is a hideous lump of concrete which scars lovely countryside – but then what do I know .

    Though I don’t wish to admit ,I have something in common with prince Charles and his view of ‘ carbuncle ‘ architecture.

  129. Kangaroo says:

    Undeadshaun @6:35am

    I have found zerohedge to be very reliable over a very long period of time.

    The item in question was also featured as a ticker on the Alex Salmond show last night, though no details were given. Zerohedge provided the details.

    BBC is a well known source of propaganda, why would anyone trust anything that it shows. They routinely obfuscate, mislead, deny, delete, fabricate and distort as well as fail to report. BBC Question time from Motherwell was a case in point. Never trust the Westminster establishment or its mouth pieces, which includes all TV and all Newspapers.

  130. starlaw says:

    For the benefit if gardeners Plant onions beside your carrots, keeps the carrot fly away.

  131. Nana says:

    A sexual misconduct complaint against Scottish Conservative MP Ross Thomson has been dismissed by Westminster’s standards commissioner, it is understood

    Video of chemical attack in #Syria’s #Douma was staged – BBC producer

  132. Kangaroo says:

    Robert Peffers and others

    Note that Google and Youtube have recently changed their search engines to deny access to the alternative media. This is how TRUTH is being denied.

    So you will get strange things happening when you request information.

    No doubt other popular search engines will have been subject to censorship too.

  133. Undeadshaun says:


    I disagree with you, but each to their own.

    The question I ask over trust would be am I willing to fund the site or organisation. If no then no trust.

  134. Starlaw
    If you plant carrots beside onions, does it keep onion fly away?
    We’ve had both. 😉

  135. Undeadshaun says:

    In addition look out for Cambridge analticas many tentacles or its Russian or Chinese counterparts.
    The Internet is full of them, trying to shape all of our options with disinformation.
    essence as moulder would say, trust no one…. Except yourself!

  136. Undeadshaun says:

    Watch some of Alan Curtis’s documentaries he foretold this years ago.

  137. starlaw says:

    Joe of the Coutts 8-18

    It might do . Ive never heard of Onion Fly.

  138. Tinto Chiel says:

    Kangaroo: “BBC is a well known source of propaganda, why would anyone trust anything that it shows. They routinely obfuscate, mislead, deny, delete, fabricate and distort as well as fail to report. BBC Question time from Motherwell was a case in point. Never trust the Westminster establishment or its mouth pieces, which includes all TV and all Newspapers.”

    And all lovingly delivered with a smirk by Jackie Bird, aka Tokyo Brose.

    Thanks for all the reading, Nana, although I suspect quite a lot of it will darken my mood on a beautiful morning.

  139. Abulhaq says:

    This Brexit ‘debate’ has been dominated by England and Ireland, Scotland’s case has effectively been relegated to the fringe. The lack of a constant, combative and very loud Scottish voice is a strategic blunder.
    The SNP, to my knowledge, does not have a dedicated ‘propaganda bureau’. Should the party leadership decide to take the war to the gates of Unionism and go on the offensive the creator of this blog ought to be consulted. The SNP’s official website is unexcitingly ‘wholesome’.

  140. Famous15 says:

    Abulcac I would trust you and Colin Alexander your twin more if you were more honest and say outright that you are a stirring or shaken British nationalist

  141. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I am continually surprised/annoyed by the London bubble media’s take on Brexit. Every day they lovingly report the latest shite-fest from Westminster, always from a two-dimensional basis of Tory v Labour.

    The Scottish dimension is never mentioned. It is as if they think: “We put the Sweaties back in their box in 2014, we have them tamed.”

    Ian Blackford’s weekly man of the match performances at PMQs and elsewhere are overlooked, the SNP are seen as a side show.

    Boy will the shite hit the fan, when, shortly, Nicola tugs the rug from under their feet. It will be carnage.

  142. Les Wilson says:

    There is an energy game changer for our many small islands and costal communities coming out of Edinburgh University.
    Cheaper and more reliable, a simple system , this could effect such communities across the world.
    Too wee, too poor, no, we still pull things off that can help our own, but many others too.

  143. Macart says:

    @Socratese MacSporran

    I’m guessing it’s no accident that the Scottish dimension is never mentioned. One part ignorance and one part arrogance to three parts demented fear.

    The ignorant and the arrogant I’d say do believe the sweaties are under a heel. The more astute (but still bastirts) are all too aware there might just be a bad day coming for them.

    They all went too far after 2014 and they know it. Now? Whatever happens, don’t mention that place in the north. It might go off on one.


    Mornin’ Nana. 🙂

    Good crop to start the day with.

  144. manandboy says:

    Independence for Scotland – in all things.

    “There are 2000 streets in Glasgow, and on only 2% of them is there a Catholic Church.”

    Yet those are the favoured streets for Orange Order Marches. You could be forgiven for thinking that the Orange Order must have a particular reason for ‘choosing/selecting /insisting and demanding’ that these streets be used for Orange Parades.
    This is also the case in at least some other towns in Scotland where Orange Parades are held.

    This piece is moderate, balanced and written in a responsible manner. And yet, at the same time, it’s contents are, or should be obvious. Except that the British Establishment don’t do ‘obvious’, and certainly not when it comes to Catholics and Irish. Why? Perhaps because they live in another’world’, a world in which hatred of Catholics and Ireland is fundamental and essential. Naw, surely not.

    So, on we go in ‘protestant’, sectarian/anti Catholic Scotland, where the Oradnge Orders are held to be exempt from the obvious disciplines of society by Unionist Councillors, by Unionist Police, and by a predominantly Unionist media, many of whom will themselves either be members of the Orange Orders, or be affiliated to, or in sympathy with them.

    An independent Scotland will be far better equipped to resolve these matters to the benefit of Scottish society as a whole.
    But even then, such a resolution will have to cast aside the euphemism ‘sectarianism’, and call it what it is specifically, viz. historic and endemic hatred of Catholics, and in addition, a widespread racial prejudice against Ireland.

    Let’s be honest, Independence will have to include elements of Scottish rehabilitation. Otherwise, Independence will itself just be a synonym for more of the same Unionist way of life. To hell wi’ that – as is they say in political circles.

  145. The ability of a council to use or not use the parking tax is a great way of countering the unionist councils when they complain of lack of funding,

    the unionist did the same to us when they allowed Scot Gov to adjust income tax (within constraints),

    as Stu said when it was proposed in the Daily Record Vow,

    raising tax (without full fiscal control) is a poisoned chalice as the unionists will always counter criticism of `Austerity agenda` with `you have the power to raise taxes why don`t you pay for it`.

  146. Abulhaq says:

    Independence means total makeover. The ingrained, unconscious bad Brit/Unionist habits must be purged from the system. We need to reclaim our history, vide Tom Divine, and strip out the alien accretions, just like any other former colonial possession.
    Many indie supporters think having embassies, a seat at the UN and EU membership is all we need; same old same old in effect. They are complacency personified.

  147. John Bell says:

    Renfrewshire Council charge their employees 500 a year to park at their HQ car park and it is fully suscribed. And that is despite being only a 5 minute walk from a mainline railway station and 10 mins from another. The HQ is well served by bus routes from Glasgow Johnstone Barrhead Linwood etc with a bus passing close by at less than every 5 minutes at peak times. The car park should be empty but people are addicted to their personal transport

  148. Tammytroot says:

    When I worked at Edinburgh Royal Infirmary, car parking charge was £7 per day. (Or night if you were on nights)
    Courtesy of Labours PFI contract.

  149. Dr Jim says:

    We’re sick of the DUP and they don’t represent us says Northern Irelands young people according to @Irish Central
    The publication goes on to say the DUP will pay a heavy price in any future elections in NI and reunification with Ireland is practically a foregone conclusion, as is Scottish Independence according to @Irish Central

    Looks like it’ll just be the Kingdom of E&W which sounds like


  150. Breeks says:

    I don’t do poetry, but you should always push yourselves out your comfort zone at lest once every 50 years.

    Here’s my Ode to Brexit.

    To our farmers and fishers, how will you fare?
    Feeding your beasts when your market’s not there?
    Will you cull them, or starve them, or sell them for pence?
    Will you breed more for next year? Or sit on your fence?

    To our teachers and tutors who fill our kids’ heads,
    Will you still teach them language to know what’s been said?
    What calling remains to teach French I fear,
    When sniggering ridicule’s all they will hear?

    To our makers and cakers, and factory folk,
    Who’ll buy your product with all of us broke?
    Ship all abroad to sell “over there”?
    Help me along here, please point out where???

    To our builders and craftsmen who wanted a trade,
    On scaffolds with hard hats, all stamped with a grade.
    Don’t you worry for health that the standards will slide?
    Once Government Safety is not on your side?

    To our nurses and doctors, those helping the weak,
    How will you manage without drugs that you seek?
    Will you manage their pain as you watch people die?
    Then hurry your shift to go home for a cry?

    To our Pakis and Poles, hush my racist wee tongue,
    I mean you no harm, I’m so glad you’ve come.
    I want you to stay, and make this place hame,
    But how can I welcome you into this shame?

    To our Polis and Army, and those in the Line,
    You’re just “us” in uniform, and trust me, that’s fine.
    But what will you do when it’s “us” in a mob?
    Will you beat us or shoot us, and call it your job?

    To our casuals and bams, and those we call neds,
    All those footie supporters with flags on their heads,
    Your fantasy football is straight out the past.
    You’ll miss a real struggle if you don’t tune in fast.

    To our Lawyers and bookworms, where have you been?
    I’m not talking killers, thieves or obscene,
    While Scots Law’s in trouble, you sleep at your post.
    Missing in action when needed the most.

    And so we come down to the governing few,
    The Champions or eejits depending on view.
    Can you lead us to Freedom? I pray that you try.
    Be bold. This is Scotland. The bar isn’t high.

    Yeah, I don’t do poetry. Now you know why. 😉

  151. Dr Jim says:

    We’re not a sectarian hate organisation says the Orange Lodge
    it’s just a coincidence that we insist on marching down the 2% of Scotlands streets that contain Catholc Churches

  152. Colin Alexander says:


    Your comment, like so many on here is clearly against the guidance which says: “play the ball, not the man”, when debating with someone.

    Why can’t you follow the example of Maria F etc?

    That commenter used my and others’ posts to address the issues raised and give their points of view in return, accepting some points, rejecting others and explaining how they have a different view where they reject my criticism of the SNP.

    They used their response in a positive way to promote the SNP and their point of view.

    And for the record, I am not a troll and I am not a supporter of the Union. I am and have always been pro-independence.

    As for devolution, that’s just buying off a generation of politicians. Comfortable lifestyles and a sense of achieving anything to take the fire out their bellies. That was the whole reason for devolution and it has worked.

    I would rather the SNP take legal action to uphold Scotland’s constitutional sovereignty. Testing it in court to halt Brexit.

    People are impressed with the SNP’s showing at WM. Nice speeches, aye. But I look at it at the SNP being sucked into the WM game, like Labour were a 100 years ago. They thought they would change things by the fine speeches etc. Now, they are part of that rotten Union Establishment.

    For me, that was when my heart sank. The dread. They’ve been assimilated into the British Establishment. Labour MkII.

    Thank goodness for the Tories and Labour for showing the SNP that they’ll always be scum to the British Establishment. That Scotland will always be second-class “equals”. For reminding the SNP that Scotland can NEVER have a strong voice or an equal say in the running of Scotland’s affairs, let alone UK-wide affairs, via UK Parliament.

  153. Lenny Hartley says:

    Ronnie @11.10 last night.
    Totally agree with you and Dorothy, its a carbuncle as chuck would have it, the Vatican has billions salted away, once on a visit to that incredible palace a mate and I sat in the Cistern Chapel at a choke pont and counted the number of folk who passed us in ten minutes, we worked out the were raking in over a billion euros a year just from admission money for the Vatican.
    They can afford to do it up, although I think a couple of kilo’s of semtex might be the best . We have other priorities for our pocket money from Westminster like alleviating Tory policies on the disabled and sick.
    I will put in a confirmation that im not anti Catholic as well, I dont like any of the organisations that believe in Talking snakes and invisible friends , they were designed by the Romans to keep the people in check by fear after the Collapse of the Roman Military Empire. And whilst there may be the odd Occasions they have been good for society as a whole worldwide they have been a disaster for Mankind.

  154. Effijy says:

    With only 6 weeks left until England’s fascist government pulls
    Scotland of an economic cliff edge against our will, I think it have
    A wonderful impact on SNP’s Indy Ref 2 announcement if we could
    Have 100,000 people march through Glasgow on a Saturday afternoon.

    We could provide stewards who could show the BBC how a Clicker works
    For counting the number of people present.

    We could even invite Murdo to address them to reassure they are not there and they don’t count!

    Could this be organised within 6 weeks?

  155. Proud Cybernat says:

    Have 100,000 people march through Glasgow on a Saturday afternoon… Could this be organised within 6 weeks?

    Sunday, 24th March, ‘Rally in Freedom Square’:

  156. Abulhaq says:

    @Lenny Hartley
    Im not antiCatholic/Jewish/Muslim but… many times have i heard that one.
    I’m a Catholic of MidEast origin so I have a finely tuned ear for camouflage speak.
    St Peter’s seminary was a find exemplar of modernist architecture when built, it remains so now, however derelict its current condition.

  157. Colin Alexander says:

    I called the 2014 YES campaign Indy-lite. It WAS parliamentary independence, not much more.

    It would have taken daily exercising of political sovereignty over Scotland away from UK Parliament and given it to Holyrood. That was the most important issue.

    Instead of a big book of polices, it could have been summed up in one two words: Sovereign Power.

    Now the SNP’s adviser is saying Indy-lite IS the way to go. Make it clear that what is being offered is Indy-lite not full independence.

    It recognises political sovereignty is the foundation for everything else.

    However, it would be fighting the 2014 campaign again with the right description, calling it “softest of soft independence” or as I call it: Indy-lite.

    However, the Unionists / Colonialsts have already and will ALWAYS reject cooperation, a confederation or indy-lite, or whatever tag you want to attach to such an arrangement.

    That means such a YES campaign of “soft-independence” is discredited from the start, as it requires mutual agreement and mutual consent and mutual trust. That is impossible when they are the Master or Empire and we are the indentured slaves of a colony.

    That’s why we should first establish or legal rights as a sovereign EQUAL within this Union.

    Whenever I raise this with Unionists / Colonialists they reply: “Independence by the back door”.

    They realise a Union where Scotland is one half of legal and political equals would never be accepted. This 1707- 2019 Union of GB: Master and Colony would be OVER.

    That is why we don’t even need to talk independence at all. We don’t need any indy-ref winner takes all gamble on who has sovereignty.

    We only have to legally establish Scotland’s people ALREADY HAVE political sovereignty and decide to exercise it at Holyrood.

    We only have to say Holyrood has the final say in representing Scotland’s interests. Scotland’s people will decide what’s devolved to the UK and what is reserved to Holyrood. We will block legislation that harms Scotland’s interests.

    We would have the power to block Brexit.

    The day that happens is the day the Union is over without the need to convert No voters to Yes voters.

    So, if it’s as simple as that, why haven’t the SNP even tried that to see if it could be done, when they’ll spend a fortune fighting Alex Salmond or UK Govt over the Sewel Convention?

    Part of the problem is WingsoverScotland. Or rather the angry abusive, aggressive zealots of the pro-indendence campaign, who think with their hearts instead of their brains, if there’s any suggestion of no indyref, or anything less than full independence immediately.

    Part of the reason being the SNP have got used to devolution, they love it. They want more of it, not less or zero devolution. It potentially gives them jobs for life. Some power with less responsibility and a continuing reason for the SNP to exist and for people to vote SNP.

  158. Giving Goose says:

    Re manandboy

    Every trade unionist and every politician in Scotland should sign a declaration condemning the Orange Order.

  159. hackalumpoff says:

    Excellent article by Alec Ross (Orkney News) well worth reading. See Nana’s links at 07:45

  160. Dr Jim says:

    I know what the SNP are secretly thinking says our resident phychic, sounding more like a combination of James Kelly and Murdo Fraser every day

    As long as he gets his SNP bad in that’s the important thing I guess

    Strangely enough I’m a psychic also and I predict the resident psychic will keep predicting this nonsense every day

  161. Robert Louis says:

    As mentioned above and from Nana’s excellent links this morning, this piece from orkney news is simply excellent.

    I too, cannot understand why we are still joining in with this utter charade in Westminster. It is abundantly clear, Scotland’s interests are not being served, on any level.

    Of course their was a time for holding on, and ‘waiting to see;, but is it not time to just accept that Westminster could not care less about Scotland. Look at last night, the Labour party didn’t support the SNP motion to take no deal off the table – something the Labour party say they demand. Idiots playing politics with Scotland well being and future.

    But, but, but, people say, what if there’s a ‘people’s vote’ on brexit, or what if their is an election once indyref is called? So what, neither matters on jot to Scotland. We already had a referendum on brexit and every single constituency voted against it, but our vote has been ignored, even sneered at by Westminster. So what then would be the relevance of a second vote on brexit to Scotland? None.

    If indyref is called but then a general election is called, it is really pretty simple, make the election the voice of the referendum (majority seats pro indy = indy) – and announce that at the time the referendum is called (nothing will scare unionists more).

    The country of Scotland is about to be forcibly dragged out of the EU wholly against its wishes, purely at the behest of political extremists in England. The time for ‘waiting to see’ is long gone. People are afraid, businesses are making long term decisions, EU citizens are literally terrified, so we need clarity. This simply cannot go on any longer. It is not a minor change.

    Their will NEVER be a ‘perfect time’ to call the indyreferendum, but it needs called (and preferably held) before brexit day.

    Use the freaking mandate the people of Scotland gave you, and call a referendum. With each passing day, more and more people are saying so.

  162. Effijy says:

    Proud Cybernat;

    Tommy is a great speaker but i wish an event like this was organised by a group like Wings.

    I fear many won’t go as they think Tommy too extreme, some because of his Court history.

    The March across the City when 90,000 turned up was awesome.
    Given all the more credibility with SNP officials among the ranks

    (Sorry BBC. Up to 200 turned up!)

  163. Dorothy Devine says:

    Lenny , some folks ears are looking for a retune – do not engage!

  164. Cubby says:

    Request to Little mix is ok but can I have more Skerrymore

  165. Breeks says:

    Things I don’t understand.

    1. How do you take No Deal off the table? It’s the default consequence of failure. It’s akin to saying we refuse to fail, as if the aspiration alone has some material impact over imminent, actual failure. It’s as if simply refusing to crash into the ground will bestow upon you the power of flight. Good luck with that.

    2. How do we propose to extend Article 50, when extension of Article 50 is prerogative of the EU 27? Why do we obfuscate the extension of Article 50 which we cannot deliver, with the revocation of Article 50 which we can deliver? – Perhaps even revoke unilaterally citing Scotland’s sovereign prerogative.

    3. In what way does a People’s vote, which practicably cannot possibly be held before the Article 50 deadline, influence the unfolding disaster of Brexit? It is surely much too late to serve as a functional escape strategy. It is a forlorn attempt to resuscitate an option who’s time has long since gone.

    4. Why are we contributing to the ongoing buoyancy of these fanciful delusions when we have only 6 weeks left to save our Nation from catastrophe, and all the time lying idle, we have established Constitutional mechanisms which are extant and potent, and could affect our salvation from said catastrophe?

    5. The Irish Backstop WILL impact on the final shape of Brexit as it emerges on March 29th. Why is there no Scottish Constitutional Backstop? The Irish Backstop has its origins in an International Peace Treaty. Good for Ireland. Scotland however has a greatly superior, water tight existential Constitutional precedence which can kill Scotland’s lawfully unconstitutional Brexit stone dead, yet we continue to flounder in denial that such a veto properly exists. We languish in a prison which only exists in our heads.

    6. What on Earth is really going on?

  166. orri says:

    Kind of a good news bad news thing this,
    [F131ATwo-thirds majority for Bills relating to a protected subject-matter
    If the Presiding Officer states under section 31(2A) that in his view any provision of a Bill relates to a protected subject-matter, the Bill is not passed unless the number of members voting in favour of it at the final stage is at least two-thirds of the total number of seats for members of the Parliament.]
    Annotations: Help about Annotation
    Amendments (Textual)

    S. 31A inserted (18.5.2017) by Scotland Act 2016 (c. 11), ss. 11(6), 72(4)(a); S.I. 2017/608, reg. 2(1)(i)

    Given that the lib dems and the rest of the unionist parties might be hoping that the SNP won’t have noticed. Their claim will be that as even a consultative referendum might impact the constitution then that clause applies.

    On the other hand the implication is that it doesn’t fucking matter that the Continuity Bill was technically scuppered by making it about reserved matters after the fact if it passed by 2/3.

    Further more if the intent was to scupper and undermine it fails given that any bill passed by that majority has passed even if it deals with a protected subject matter.

    We’ll leave it up to Labour and Lib Dems to oppose the result of an independence referendum if enacting it ever goes before Holyrood for enabling legislation.

  167. Contrary says:

    Thank you to CameronB Brodie that alerted TuS to this study:

    Being positive, leading to good mental health, will be needed to see us through, and help prevent falling for MSM hype and propaganda, and dampen hysterical reactions to tea-cup storms.

  168. Cubby says:

    Colin Alexander must have posted thousands of times and about 99.9% were all about SNP baaaaad. Never saw a post from him suggesting an alternative means of Scotland obtaining independence but through the SNP. What does that tell you ?

    Phoney independence supporter.

  169. Colin Alexander says:

    Dr Jim

    You don’t need to be psychic to read:

    Andrew Wilson, adviser to Nicola Sturgeon:

    “In the parlance of Brexit, we offer the softest of possible changes to the current arrangements, not the hardest. We recognise the level of integration and all the ties that have bound us for centuries. We create a platform that can unify a majority for progress that stands a chance of winning and winning big.”

  170. Legerwood says:


    This Week is ending. Andrew Neil is stepping down.

    Apologies if anyone has already mentioned it.

  171. Contrary says:

    Cubby – Yes.

    I am only starting out formulating a list of things to watch out for and the (maybe) best way of dealing with it, I have already started and ventured this:

    1. Distractions – one of the key techniques, trolling I believe it is called these days. Anyone picks up on an irrelevant point in what you’ve said and tries to turn it into an issue – ignore it, and either carry on with your actual, original, point or move on. In fact we need a list of what to look out for in general:

    2. Person claiming to support independence, but (caveats) – e.g. I’ll only support independence if I get free ice cream.

    3. Person claiming to support independence, but makes personal attacks on others. e.g. His version of independence is shite, mines better. He said the walls should be painted blue, we can’t have him speaking out for independence. (I will add this as an example:’Wings is part of the problem…’)

    4. Anyone that insults the person instead of debating the subject. E.g. You are an idiot, why don’t you shut up.

    5. Any comment that induces a feeling of anger. (That’s personal to each person so can’t really give an example, the purpose is to make you angry, so just don’t be. And yes, that IS possible)

    6. Anyone that confuses constitutional issues with party political or everyday issues. Eg. the NHS is shite! You can’t want independence!

    7. Plausible comments with unsubstantiated inferences that have a slightly sinister tone – there are some pretty clever comments online going about, these are harder to spot. In general people you actually talk to can’t pull this off, so it’s an online thing. People injecting themselves into conversations, not being bullying or offensive, but introducing subjects slightly off-key. I don’t know how much influence these have, but could lead up to arguments, discriminatory statements, distraction into non-relevant subjects.

    Best thing is to avoid any of these – just make no response if you feel in any way uncomfortable. Or at least not directly. Countering any misinformation is good, and can usually be done as a separate comment somewhere nearby but not in direct reply, and not making any reference to the original comment. In real-person interactions, choosing someone completely different nearby and discussing loudly a countering argument, but again not directly referencing the original statements. …‘Avoiding confrontation’ I guess!

    The difference between an actual paid agent provocateur and just some idiot stooge is irrelevant I reckon, though the former is likely going to be more persistent.

    Any thoughts on useful techniques and other items to look out for would be good. In general most folk on Wings are pretty good at countering any of the above, so it’s me seeking advice rather than giving any here.

  172. Lenny Hartley says:

    Dorothy, dont worry i wont respond my Pastarafarianism says turn the other cheek ??

  173. Camz says:

    It’s obvious. Someone more politically savvy (i.e. one of seven billion people on the planet), told Jamie to round up to a more jarring number, pin it on Nicola.

    The first tweet omitted who to blame, and to highlight ‘hard-working Scots’. Might as well up the amount while changing the tune.

    Supposedly, the less hard-working will be given a pass? Are the Tories advocating laziness?

  174. Dan says:

    Robert Louis, most of the businesses I’ve visited over the past few weeks have done very little or nothing at all in preparation for a no deal or whatever deal we might end up with.
    They have had numerous correspondences from the authorities relating to this subject but these businesses are just busy getting on with what they do.
    They have neither the time spare and as they are often practical people, they sometimes don’t have the legalistic nounce or depth of specific knowledge to work through the intricate and multifaceted mechanisms and variables being asked of them.

    One I spoke with briefly processes and sells meat, an other builds relatively complex lorry trailers, the former exporting and utilising nonUK EU Nationals for staff, the latter importing the components they require from multiple different EU member states.

    I sensed significant exasperation and resentment for what they are now having to endure. I think if they were given an opportunity to avoid all this hassle and regain some stability they would grasp it willingly.
    They need to see a straightforward tangible option though. In my view continual complex political manouevring often seems to obscure that choice and our path out of the current mire.
    The KISS acronym comes to mind.

  175. geeo says:

    Coco having a ‘lengthy diatribe’ phase today i see…!

    Just because you write an essay full of drivel, it does not make it any more drivelous, coco.

    Coco has entered the final stages of British Nationalist desperation, panic.

  176. Dr Jim says:

    OK First Andrew Wilson is not an adviser to the FM, he’s a man who was asked to write and wrote a prospectus and presented it to the SNP for consideration, it has been considered and nobody at any point in time ever on the planet has adopted it as policy, ever ever, because in order to do that the SNP would have to ask me and 130.000 other members to approve it then vote on it before it got anywhere near SNP policy (actual facts can be annoying)

    But you go right ahead with your magic brain and tell me what I’ve voted or not voted on in my party
    Invent imaginary crap all over the place and state it as fact
    Now I can forgive stupidity but malicious troublemaking I cannot

    This is not the start of one of you wee dialogues with somebody because I will not be entertaining you today

  177. Capella says:

    Mayday mayday – R 4 is broadcasting from Glasgow today! Yikes

  178. geeo says:

    Finally got my whitewash response to my QT complaint.

    As expected, nothing to see here.

    My complaint:

    On your Question Time Programme, there was a man in a Red jacket who was selected by Fiona Bruce to speak, who immediately launched into an aggressive anti SNP/Scottish independence tirade, uninterrupted by the Show Host, Fiona Bruce.

    I immediately identified the person as Billy Mitchell, who is a well known Orange Order Flute Band bigot and failed UKIP political candidate, who was previously on Question Time in 2016 wearing an Orange Jacket and again was ‘picked’ to launch into an almost identical aggressive rant during that programme.

    I am led to understand that it is near impossible to be randomly selected in the audience ballot for QT so it is extremely suspicious that someone, especially someone who was obviously a rampaging nutjob on his previous appearance, was invited back on a 2nd time.

    I put it to you that Billy Mitchell WAS INVITED by the show production team to perform his anti SNP/INDY diatribe and by doing so, the show and the BBC are guilty of bias. Also, this persons political activism was never disclosed as is Protocol on such programming, precisely to avoid claims of audiences being ‘planted’ by programmers.

    When discussing independence, EVERY selected contributor was vehemently anyi indy/SNP, it is quite a stretch to expect us to believe 4 contributors in a row would all share the exact same unionist bingo playbook views. That stinks of chosen bias.

    And finally, back to Billy Mitchell. I have a photo of your ‘random’ audience member (red jacket man) in private conversation beside the guest seats before or after the show, with fellow trolling guest, Michael Forsyth, clearly selected by the BBC to simply parrot SNP BAD no matter the topic.

    Perhaps you could give me an explanation why a clearly invited guest, returning from a previously disgusting performance on QT, was not only invited back to repeat his rant, but also was afforded a private audience with the only other guest who behaved outragously unchecked by the host ?

    This was the BBC ‘response’

    Does not address any of the issuew excrept to say ‘billy lied’ to get on the show, no mention of why he was chatting with Forsyth and others nor any other issues i mentioned.


    “Many thanks for getting in touch with us recently about the edition of Question Time from Motherwell broadcast on 7th February 2019.

    We were naturally concerned to learn that you were unhappy about the programme’s audience.

    Having received a range of feedback on this issue, keeping in mind pressures on our TV Licence fee resources this response seeks to address the key points raised. That said, we apologise in advance if your complaint has not been specifically addressed here, but we raised the main concerns with the programme team.

    We’d explain that Question Time receives tens of thousands of audience applications per year, and from those we welcome over 5,000 members of the public every year to our recordings and we are grateful for such a high level of interest.

    Audience selection is a significant undertaking and the process of selection is afforded the highest priority by the Question Time team. As such, we cannot agree with suggestions that the programme from Motherwell was not representative of a range of views.

    Our system for selection includes asking a detailed series of questions, sometimes by phone, whereby every potential audience member is spoken to individually. Data supplied by potential audience members is also routinely cross referenced and verified, and we regularly seek guidance on best practice in this area.

    Whilst we acknowledge that you may also have an opinion on one individual audience member, given the strict rules on Data Protection we’d clarify that we are not routinely able to talk about individual cases. We have taken the opportunity on this specific occasion to have clarified that an individual who attended this edition of the programme has previously supplied inaccurate information.

    Although there are no hard and fast rules about how many times someone can appear in a Question Time audience, we want to allow as many people as possible the chance to be part of the programme so we would not normally allocate a seat to someone if they had appeared recently. We continually review our systems and processes in this area.

    Many thanks once again for taking the time to get in touch with us. We welcome and greatly appreciate all audience feedback on our programmes, and it can help us shape future decisions. Please be assured that yours has been logged and circulated to senior executives across the BBC and the issues raised have been discussed directly with the Question Time team”.

    Kind Regards

    BBC Complaints Team


    Ofcom it is then. Another waste of time but oh well.

  179. Proud Cybernat says:

    Next time you’re on a march:

    We’re on the march wi’ Nicky’s army,
    ‘Cos we all know that indy’s fine.
    And we’ll shake Westminster up,
    When we get them a’ tae fuck,
    ‘Cos Scotland knows that now is indy time.

  180. Clootie says:

    It must be really nice to have a government that is competently managing the Brexit situation instead of Westminster chaos and lies.

    Irish Government Brexit Events
    Upcoming events
    18 February: Enterprise Ireland, Brexit Webinar
    20 February: Revenue, Brexit Customs Information Seminar, Dublin
    26 February: Enterprise Ireland, Essentials of Exporting, Galway
    26 February: Bord Bia, Regional Customs Training, Westmeath
    5 March: Brexit & Beyond – Strategies & Supports, Offaly
    7 March: Brexit Ready for Export Seminar, Local Enterprise Office, Limerick
    14 March: Enterprise Ireland, Essentials of Exporting, Monaghan

    Check out the Irish Government’s dedicated website for all Brexit information:

  181. Capella says:

    Well that was the usual BBC waste of air space. Mark Mardell in Glasgow speaks to Adam Tomkins, Douglas Alexander, Andrew Muscatelli, John Curtice, Sarah Smith, a couple pf businessmen, a couple of Polish cake makers who, amazingly, think stopping inward migration is a good thing,someone in the care sector and eventually, Mike Russell on the end of a dodgy phone line (probably prerecorded and edited).

    He is now interviewing somebody about the O2 venue so I switched off.

    The only interesting factor is how much he had to preload the “Scotland disnae want another referendum” message before allowing Mike Russel some limited airtime over the phone.


  182. ronnie anderson says:

    Ledgerwood This Week starts of as a comedy show ( not a good introduction for what was a serious political discussion programme ) so its not before time Andrew Neil hung up his wig but i suspect Profritta roll will take over presenting it .

  183. Bill says:

    Dear Seafarers

    You will be well aware that the UK notified the EU of its intention to leave under article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty in March 2017. This triggered a two-year period during which the terms of the UK’s exit are to be agreed. This period is due to end on the 29th March 2019.

    Subsequently, the UK and the EU agreed on guidelines for a proposed 21-month transitional period following the March 2019 exit date, during which time, most EU legislation would continue to apply. This proposed transitional period would end on 31st December 2020.

    However, following the defeat in Parliament of the proposed withdrawal agreement earlier this month, and with a little over two months to go until Brexit, the prospect of a ‘no deal’ Brexit whereby the UK leaves the EU with no transitional period remains a very real possibility.

    In this scenario, shipping – as a trans boundary industry – is likely to be disproportionately affected by any disruption caused by a no deal agreement. One particular area of concern to Nautilus members is the continued recognition of UK CoCs by EU member states, and the ability of UK seafarers to continue to work on EU flagged vessels post-Brexit.

    At present, every EU country recognises the certificates of competency issued to seafarers by other EU countries. The certificates must be accompanied by a ‘endorsement attesting recognition’ issued by the country recognising the certificate.

    In order for certificates issued by countries outside the EU to be recognised (third countries), a request must be submitted to the European Maritime Safety Agency (EMSA). This organisation will carry out an assessment of that countries training and certification processes which, if successful, will allow EU member states to recognise the certificates issued by it – should they choose to do so. The country making the request is permitted to recognise the certificates in question while the inspection process takes place.

    If the UK were to leave the EU without a deal, they would become a ‘third country’ and EU member states would be required to submit a request to EMSA to assess the UK’s training and certification before they would be permitted to issue new endorsements. This process can be long and arduous and, as has been recently indicated by the European Commission, the UK cannot expect any special treatment with regards to the timescale to carry out the inspection.

    Existing endorsements would continue to be valid until their expiration, but it will not be possible to issue new endorsements or transfer existing endorsements between EU flag states.

    Please be assured that Nautilus is working tirelessly in coordination with the UK, EU member state governments and, EU shipowner organisations to ensure that measures are put in place to prevent any disruption to UK seafarers working onboard EU flagged vessels in the event of a ‘no-deal’ Brexit.

    However, as there is still a high degree of uncertainty as to the eventual outcome of Brexit negotiations, Nautilus is advising those members who have endorsements on their CoCs from other EU member states, to renew those endorsements as soon as possible, so as to ensure the maximum period of validity post Brexit. In many instances this will require early revalidation of the UK CoC. Nautilus has been re-assured by the government that the MCA is sufficiently resourced to cope with this extra demand. You should also urge your employer to make contact with the Member State regulatory authority with a request that they continue to recognise UK CoCs after the UK leaves the EU.

    Further information can be found here: or by contacting your industrial organiser.

    Kind Regards

    David Appleton
    Professional & Technical Officer
    Nautilus International

  184. wull2 says:

    Because there is little smoke it does not mean the fire has gone out, the opposition is doing a good job putting plenty fuel on it for us.
    When a certain lady calls FIRE, that is the time for us to respond. YES

  185. Capella says:

    Sorry – Anton Muscatelli.

  186. Capella says:

    Sorry again! – missed out John Lamont. So a few Tory and Labour unionists, a few tame academic unionists, and a couple of business men and Polish immigrants who are anti immigration ( message is that Scotland isn’t really any different to England), and a few BBC unionists. For balance, Mike Russell on the end of a phone.

    BBC World at One, on holiday in Glasgow for an hour.

  187. starlaw says:

    Parking meters were installed in St Andres Square, George St, and Charlotte Square, Edinburgh during nineteen sixty four causing the office and shop workers no end of misery running to top these meters up every two hours or so. These meters were not installed by Either the SNP or Wendy Wood and her Nationalists but by Edinburgh Council who may well have been Tories at the time.

  188. yesindyref2 says:

    @Undeadshaun / @kangaroo
    Sources may be unreliable, RT clearly is as well as the BBC by the way. But an open mind should always take note and see some uncertainty perhaps.

    Around that time there were a lot of postings and commetns about this being staged, but even before seeing any of them I had my own doubts. The background is that in August of whatever year it is, Cameron tried to get a vote in the HoC and failed, the French guy didn’t bother, and Obama without the usual support from the UK and France didn’t go for action (bombings +).

    Putin then got agreement from Syria to get rid of chemical weapons and Syria apparently got rid of chemical weapons in stages, and acceded to the CWC on 9/12/13*

    This was a real Cold War proaganda coup for Putin, and the West don’t like that, not one single bit. Hence why my eyebrow rose without any reading of other people’s dounts, over such a well-photographed “transgression” of the CWC and apparent use of chemical weapons by Assad. Clearly it could be the West striking back in the propaganda stakes.

    I still keep an open mind, it is interesting that the reporter’s twitter is protected.

  189. Hamish100 says:

    How does data protection apply when the individual appears on television -freely gives up his privacy and staTes he was contacted by the BBC

    Where’s BBC WATCHDOG? who represents Scottish Interests? Why are they silent?

  190. galamcennalath says:

    “Here’s an A to Z list of Brexit lies”

    Hopefully the opportunity all this creates to achieve Indy will be a silver lining.

    However, the whole chaotic debacle of grown adults perpetuating fairytales as real world possibilities is incredibly sad.

  191. Cubby says:


    The Standard BBC response. A lot of words that say nothing to address the points raised. Perhaps if you are taking it further you should add in the fact that Orange man is claiming the BBC asked/contacted him. Also the facts that he has been on the show at least 4 previous occasions and why did they cut just Hyslops response and not his question when he was the one breaking the rules re contempt of court.

    The BBC is a propaganda broadcaster. The word bias is too mild for what they get up to. Thankfully we no longer hear from BBC apologists saying we just need a wee chat with them to explain our point of view.

    The media in Scotland is anti independence always has been and always will be until independence is delivered. Why is that? They are controlled from London – that’s why.

  192. yesindyref2 says:

    Looking at the dates of that, I remember posting in the Herald that the Syria action call was dodgy. Like I say I keep an open mind about that Hospital thing, but if forced to say one way or another, the whole thing was too convenient and relaxed to be credible.

  193. Ron Maclean says:

    Data protection is often used by complaint systems to shield the incompetent, the guilty and the liars within an organisation.

  194. Sorcha S. says:

    Can I just say I have been a long time lurker, almost since the start, so I have seen many posters come and go over the years?

    We are about to start up our Yes group again so I am collecting material and the above article is so useful as it is relevant and we can use it to easily counter and refute what comes up in questions at our stalls and on the doors.

    This is the bit I am dreading because I suspect I’ll get the usual angry mob descending.

    I really want to recommend the site to new people but the current bickering and aggressive put-downs are making it difficult. I come here for the articles which I print off and for Nana’s links but I am seriously considering warning new people to avoid the BTL comments. Recently, the more prolific posters pushing their views have dominated BTL on every article, no matter the relevance. They remind me very much of a certain Unionist who is fond of graphs and his arrogant put-downs of anyone who questions him. ‘Prove me wrong, you can’t can you? Therefore I am entitled to insult you, you stupid person’ – as if a battle on the doorsteps will be won that way.

    In my experience pedantic, argumentative hobbyists with strong views are entertaining but they are no substitute for persuasion with facts and goodwill.

    I appreciate this is a lifelong subject of interest for many here and they have very strong views but regarding the constitutional assertions made here could people put some links if they make claims about sovereignty and the law? I tend to refer the Indy curious to Andrew Tickell and Aileen McHarg’s twitter accounts and blog for measured and accurate information.

    Also, the constant witch hunt for Unionist moles is getting really tedious. Could we just appreciate for some people they are new to this and they could easily be put off for good?

  195. Breeks says:

    Here’s a wee question for all the troll hunters…

    Whether you’re quoting Sun Tzu’s Art of War, or quoting Napoleon Bonaparte quoting Sun Tzu’s Art of War, or whoever, you are all familiar with the expression “never interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake”.

    So if you’re all so absolutely sure that people criticising the SNP for its policy is evidence of disruption or malignant subversion of the pro independence movement, then why are they saying anything at all? If such people think the SNP are wrong or failing in some respect, I ask you the question, why would a legitimate “agitator” seek to interrupt an enemy making a mistake? Let the SNP make its mistakes and suffer the consequences, no?

    But, if there is a body of opinion that is confused or disillusioned about prevailing SNP policy, isn’t it better raised up for discussion and argued out constructively?

    You are all so very quick to draw the word “troll” like a gun, but maybe, just maybe you’re all getting a wee bit trigger happy. Don’t want to single you out Contrary, but that wee list of trollisms of yours above draws a passable identikit picture of our own Mr Peffers… not your intention I’m sure.

    I can’t speak for Colin Alexander, or Rock, or whoever else you consider “suspect”, but when I am critical of the SNP, and yes I know I can be very critical, it is the polar opposite of “not” interrupting my enemy making a mistake. If I think the SNP is making a mistake, it seems to me the very “wrongest” thing to do is to shut up and go along with it.

    When I am critical of SNP strategy, I am seeking an argument that will inform me how and why I am wrong, or, if I have raised a sound objection, I want it to perhaps inform others about how or why they are wrong. Isn’t that the whole point of constructive argument? We are both left stronger for the exchange.

    I’m not hostile to the SNP by prejudice, but I am thoroughly exasperated by seeking out some address to the acutely relevant issue of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty, yet since 2014, I have seen nothing to reassure my grave concerns that the way we regard democracy to be the superior of sovereignty is sheer folly.

    In 2014, we never addressed the issue of Constitutional Sovereignty at all. I remember arguing ad nauseam that what mattered wasn’t what everybody was vexed about, not what Scotland decided over ephemeral policies like currency or defence or whatever, but the constitutional principle and constant that it should be Scotland who made the decision. Sovereignty! How many times must it be said??? Well thousands hasn’t been enough.

    And when Scotland votes Remain, and the SNP adopts a Soft Brexit strategy, it evidently needs said again.

    When Scotland is gagged, and shut out the room when Brexit is being negotiated, it needs said again.

    When Scotland is betting all upon a democratic mandate from people indoctrinated by hostile news media, it needs said again.

    When England adopts the Scottish doctrine of popular sovereignty, and Holyrood adopts the English doctrine of Parliamentary Sovereignty, it clearly needs said again.

    Do you see? Do you see it yet?

    I’m sorry people if it gets up your nose, but until the penny drops that we have to build the case for Independence which has Constitutional Sovereignty at its core, then I’m afraid I’m going to raise the same subject again and again, as I have since before 2014.

    Check back too, the other runner on my pet hobby horse was the media. I was routinely scathing about our pitiful efforts to confound the Establishments propaganda and indoctrination. It took its time emerging, but thank heavens there is now a healthy cynicism for the deluge of crap from the BBC, but there is still a long way to go. I hope you all fully appreciate just what a fundamental difference has been made to our cause by Rev Stu, G A Ponsonby, Prof Robertson, and all of the London Calling stalwarts who have given Scotland a lifeline. They didn’t make friends doing it, they certainly didn’t get rich doing it, but they are all Scottish hero’s to a man. A wee bit more formal recognition wouldn’t have gone amiss… just sayin’.

    Am I angry and confrontational now? Yes I am. I’m bloody exasperated frankly. SNPbad? Not, really, but kinda… In six weeks, they’re going to take away my European Citizenship. I’m bloody livid about that. But I’m also profoundly annoyed that I still don’t know whether my Scottish Governments priority is a soft Brexit, a grievance Brexit to be pedalled for Indy down the line, a People’s Vote to potentially conflict with our 2016 Remain Vote, or a No Brexit option to negate our 2016 mandate altogether. What doesn’t seem to be on their agenda is the singular Constitutional Sovereignty argument that wins the day for Scotland and saves my EU Citizenship. How can I be anything but confused and disillusioned? SNPbad? Who cares? That’s so fkn irrelevant a thing to say I don’t think you’re even paying attention.

    There are six, …weeks, …left…

  196. yesindyref2 says:

    @Sorcha S
    If I was you I’d just caution people about btl on Wings, and be frank about it. Tell them there is value, and all the other things you said in your posting. New readers will then be aware and not put off.

  197. Bill says:

    Breeks, it’s a well known phenomenon that any critisim of SNP policy is taken very badly by Yes groups.

  198. yesindyref2 says:

    Anyways, I don’t think the Syria Hospital thing is actually OT at all, as it relates to International Relations. And that’s something Scotland can pursue a substantially different path to the rUK with. Scotland does have some world renowned IR people, some of them are or have been, a bit UK-centric. Which is no surprise I guess. But Scotland itself has proven to be quite different to the rUK over such as Iran, and even Afghanistan and Syria in the past. That’s the SNP and Greens, but also Labour, the LibDems and even Tories who aren’t as gung-ho as the Westminster ones. Once broken from the Westminster influence, even they might represent Scotland better.

    That’s encouraging. I do the defence stuff, and Scotland, as the Icelandic Institute said, will need shelter, an umbrella, we can’t just stand on our own. We have the GIUK which will be the GIS (Greenland Icceland Scotland Gap). Strategically in the northern seas and Arctic we are important.

    Most will remember the hard fought debate in the SNP over full memberhsip of NATO, a change from the previous Partners for Peace stance. The vote was won by 52% to 48%, 2 MSPs left the SNP but still voted with them in Holyrood. And a third stood down from the SNP next election rather than damage Indy and the SNP by doing it at the time, a principled stand.

    But what isn’t realised by many is that external action with NATO is voluntary. Germany for instance did not take part in Iraq, not until the ceasefire when it provided peacekeeping forces. Clearly Scotland could do the same.

    And as a moderate member, Scotland could provide influence within NATO.

  199. Macart says:

    @Sorcha S.

    Open forums are notorious for short tempers to be sure.

    As I’ve said many times to folks. If someone’s commentary doesn’t make you feel comfortable and you’re not the confrontational type? Scroll on by to a familiar and more friendly face or reception.

    Most importantly, don’t reply to folk whom you feel are attempting to bait you personally or attempting to use your commentary to derail a thread. Life’s too short and reading/communicating with new faces and points of view is supposed to be a pleasure. Folk need only apply their own filtres to enjoy the experience.

    Other than that? What yesindyref2 said. 🙂

  200. wull says:

    Keep saying it, Breeks at 2.48 pm. You have every right to do so. And on the key issue, you are absolutely correct. The key issue IS indeed the sovereignty of the people. The Scottish people are sovereign in Scotland. No one has the right to overrule them. full stop.

  201. geeo says:

    Question for you Breeks.

    What are the Scotsgov doing “off screen” ?

    The answer of course, is you do not know.

    Are you suggesting they are doing nothing at all, as you certainly seem to suggest that.

    How do you know they have not been laying the groundwork for exactly what you advocate, and are awaiting a suitable time to spring that Constitutional Sovereignty trap ?

    What make your timing the correct way to go about what you suggest ?

    And finally, how do you know the Scotsgov are not just going to put a last minute motion to Holyrood to dissolve the Treaty of Union, ending the union overnight, which could then be presented to International courts as Scotland expressing her people’s constitutional Sovereignty ?

    You present you solution as the ONLY solution, and that more than anything, possibly creates hostility to it.

    I do not dismiss the notion, i just think that the Scotsgov has a clear plan ready to deploy, because if they do not, they are probably finished.

    SNP delivered in 2014, WE let THEM down by voting No.

    Their job is to provide a vehicle for independence, it is OUR job to drive it over the line.

  202. Liz g says:

    Breeks @ 2.48
    Not a position,or an excuse,but rather an explanation!
    I think there’s a view,and I can’t say it’s wrong.
    That we have a mass media campaign to do any criticism and it’s never let up…Then there is the “Positive Case” for Indy hangover.
    So this translates into “why give them any ammunition here”.
    Your criticism of posters who will brook no dissent is valid,(and can I gently point out you don’t either when it comes to how you see Sovereignty) but this has become a space for “support” of Independence,even if that’s not how the Rev originally saw it and therein lies the problem, when it comes to any criticism,constructive or no.

    Poster’s have good reason to be wary,and we are ALL very frustrated at the pace of events.
    But just in general some things I would point out.

    Firstly… Nicola has always said Autumn 2018 or Spring 2019,well,it’s no yet Spring!

    Secondly… Nicola has indicated more than once she want/needs to hear the demand for Indy ref 2,so Mibbi it is time to start makin noise!!

    Thirdly… To caution that T.May could still find a way to delay Nicolas Spring decision.
    And lastly…
    I’m sure that when the push to Indy starts there will be many posters who will be back here on a regular basis,and the conversations will focus.But in the meantime we should be glad of everyone who has stayed the course BTL and kept this as an almost 24/7, 365 resource…even the Trolls and those who come to argue with them…because that’s ment there’s always been some where to go…
    Somewhere that in a way rivals 24h news!

  203. Colin Alexander says:

    Dr Jim

    That the SNP leadership have not distanced themselves from Mr Wilson’s and similar comments doesn’t register with you at all?

    Also, it’s branch delegates who vote to decide policy at conference, not individual members.

    So, you don’t have a direct vote unless you are a conference delegate.

    That’s how the SNP leadership exercise control, which enables them to have a “pro-independence” party and party conference with no debates about independence.

  204. CameronB Brodie says:

    British nationalism and anti-catholic sectarianism are different faces of the same beast. The two can’t exist without the other, as their symbiotic end-goal is the retention of power and social domination. There’s no better way to tame a people than to divide their “sense of self”.

  205. orri says:

    Shorter version of what I posted earlier,

    the impact of 31A added to the Scotland Act in 2016 is that either a future SNP Holyrood administration need to secure the post of Presiding Officer or risk any proposed referendum bill needing a minimum of 2/3 or 78 MSPs to vote in favour to pass.

    Even then there’s always the possibility that if it passes it will be opposed after the fact.

  206. Breeks says:

    geeo says:
    15 February, 2019 at 3:26 pm
    Question for you Breeks.

    What are the Scotsgov doing “off screen” ?

    The answer of course, is you do not know.

    Well if the SNP want credit for it, and expect to amass political capital from doing it, then don’t you think there’s a certain onus upon them to actually let folks know? There’s good number of us cynical types who don’t “do” blind faith, especially when it comes to politicians.

  207. Tatu3 says:

    I just think it’s sad we have wasted the opportunity to attract some big businesses who are leaving England mainly, (but Scotland too). Which if we had gone for Indy as soon as the majority in Scotland voted to remain in euref 16 instead of worrying about the rest of the UK, some might have moved north to us istead of to Ireland, or mainland europe.
    Would have attracted more people to Scotland for work, therefore more taxes, more construction work – business premises, houses, shops, schools for the influx of people.
    As I said – such a waste.

  208. Robert Peffers says:

    @Kangaroo says: 15 February, 2019 at 8:02 am:

    ” … Note that Google and Youtube have recently changed their search engines to deny access to the alternative media. This is how TRUTH is being denied.”

    You can always try the search engine that does NOT track your personal details or search history:-


  209. Cubby says:

    The SNP/Scotgov get criticised by:

    1. All the British Nationalist parties in Holyrood.

    2. All the British Nationalist parties in Westminster.

    3. All the British Nationalist councillors throughout Scotland.

    4. The British Nationalist controlled Unions.

    5. The British Nationalist controlled media throughout the UK.

    6. British Nationalists from all sectors of Scottish, N. Irish, English and Welsh society making up stories.

    7. British Nationalists on social media eg twitter and Facebook.

    8. Foreign heads of state put up to it by Westminster e.g. Obama.

    Is this not enough for some people? I repeat is this not enough?

    Let’s encourage independence supporters to all pile in as well. Is that it!!!!!!!!

    I am not an SNP member and I have often had questions or doubts about their strategy over past decades but I saw and still see no value in piling in with all of the above other than disproving that the SNP is not a cult.

    If I want to hear/ see people slagging off the SNP I just have to turn on the telly/ radio or pick up a newspaper. Why would I want to hear more of the same on Wings?

  210. orri says:

    Make that 86 ,
    So unless at least one unionist party is willing to accept the desire to hold a referendum it’s a near impossibility to “legally” hold one or implement the result if the assumption is made that it could affect a reserved matter.

    Basically almost anything Holyrood does can be stymied by a belligerent PO.

  211. CameronB Brodie says:

    You answered your own question.

    6. What on Earth is really going on?

    We languish in a prison which only exists in our heads.

    I agree wholeheartedly, the doctrine of international law exists for a purpose, i.e. to check totalitarian authoritarianism, such as Brexit. I woulnd’t know the best time to put the doctrine of law into effect though. That’s the burn.

  212. Dr Jim says:

    Billy the flute band man has a fan club and they dress in orange shirts just like their hero with haircuts the same and everything, I’ve just seen two of them outside Aldis


    On a lighter note Trump’s gone even madder than he normally is in a speech on the telly ranting like a twelve year old spoilt kid in a supermarket not getting a shot in the trolly

    Oh and Colin son don’t tell me about the rules of an organisation I’ve been a member and delegate of for more years than most folk have been alive, yer a pratt son and you keep proving it every time you tap your keyboard

  213. geeo says:


    Sorry, but that was a pathetic response.

    You want the SNP to potentially blow a strong strategy and years of planning, because you dont trust politicians and want to know their strategy, even if it potentially ruins the chances of Scotland becoming independent.

    Just wow!!

  214. Bill Hume says:

    Dear friend and fellow cairters…..”Haud back ’till ye draw forrit”

    We’re nearly there, have faith and stay strong. Strong will be required quite soon.

  215. Dr Jim says:

    Some of you may have seen on your travels the British Red Cross outside shops and the like looking for sign ups to direct debit money for Ambulances
    I stopped to question these people who informed me that all the money stays in Scotland, I said can you show me proof, but they could not they just kept insisting they were speaking the truth, and that’s OK up to a point until one of them slipped up and said “The Scottish government isn’t putting enough money into the health service for Ambulances so the Red Cross is having to step in” I replied that I’d have to check with the Health Minister that statement was correct to which they replied “It’s OK they know all about it”

    I then replied ” Tell me who the Scottish Health Minister is”……They had no idea!

    Now these people might be real but uninformed but you’d think if this was legitimate and cleared with the SG they’d surely know who Jeanne Freeman MSP Minister for Scottish NHS was…….don’t you think

  216. Robert Peffers says:

    @John Bell says: 15 February, 2019 at 10:16 am:

    ” The car park should be empty but people are addicted to their personal transport.”

    Typical claptrap from a typical short sighted illogical numptie.

    Your diatribe of the bus and train services exposes your personal agenda but also shows you to be totally illogical.

    What your argument shows is only the services close to the workplace. It makes no references to where the parked vehicles have come from. Is there conveniently timed train and bus services close by the homes of the employees?

    Secondly, many council employees must go out and deal with people in their jobs. Many councils allow their employees to use their own vehicles and pay a mileage allowance. This is usually set to be cheaper than providing official council vehicles and contracting out the garaging and maintenance of the council fleet of vehicles.

  217. Colin Alexander says:


    Just for you, who very wisely disassociates yourself from anything I say, even though we basically say the same stuff. (Except you tended to be more diplomatic about it).

    How the White Paper from 2014 addressed sovereignty:

    currently: “Constitution based on sovereignty of the Crown in Parliament, Her Majesty The Queen As Head of State.”

    future: “Constitution based on sovereignty of the people of Scotland, Her Majesty The Queen As Head of State

    So UK Parliament is sovereign over us because of the (English Crown) in Parliament. They missed that bit out.

    Lets put this another way: We are ruled by the Kingdom of England via UK Parliament. By sovereign power of the Queen of England, not by democracy.

    The white paper goes on:

    “A written constitution will be a significant step forward for an independent Scotland. It will replace the central principle of the UK constitution – the absolute sovereignty of the Westminster Parliament – with the sovereignty of the people of Scotland, which has been the central principle in the Scottish constitutional tradition”.

    Principle? Tradition?

    Why doesn’t it say by: The LAW of Scotland. The legal right of the people of Scotland.

    “What does “sovereignty of the people of Scotland” mean?
    It means that the people of Scotland have the right to choose
    freely their form of governance. In an independent Scotland,
    sovereignty would mean that the people of Scotland were the
    final authority and all state power and authority would be
    accountable to them.”

    No, that’s what the Labour led Constitutional Convention came up with. Sovereignty of the people means exactly that. We are the ultimate power NOW, not the English Crown in Westminster.

    “However, as part of the UK, the dominant constitutional rule is
    that Westminster can do anything it chooses, except bind its
    successors. Sovereignty in the UK is vested in ‘the Crown in
    Parliament’ and not in the people”.

    Rule, not law. Who made that rule??? Does a rule count more than Scots Law?

    “Following the election of the Conservative government in 1979,
    devolution, and the concept of the sovereignty of the Scottish
    people, was taken forward first by the Campaign for a Scottish
    Assembly, and then, from 1989, the Scottish Constitutional

    So, the White paper discusses Scottish sovereignty of the people as: a tradition and concept.

    Never a legal right. Never the law.

    To be fair, it dodges it again with UK sovereignty: “principle” and “rule”

    To summarise, just for you Breeks:

    The SNP being mealy mouthed didn’t just happen under Ms Sturgeon’s leadership, they were afraid to say Scotland’s people ARE legally sovereign back in 2014.

    Well, we know they all take an oath of allegiance to the Queen.

    MSPs: “I (Member’s Name), do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, Her Heirs and Successors, according to Law. So help me God.”

    The affirmation states: “I (Member’s Name), do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, Her Heirs and Successors, according to Law.”

    MPs: ” I… swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.”

    The SNP and all Scottish politicians the 21st Century version of the Rag man rolls swearing allegiance to the Crown of England.

    SNP politicians swear allegiance to English Crown rule over Scotland.

    Sinn Feinn know what that oath means. They refuse to swear allegiance to English Crown rule over Ireland.

  218. Breeks says:

    Liz g says:
    15 February, 2019 at 3:37 pm

    Firstly… Nicola has always said Autumn 2018 or Spring 2019,well,it’s no yet Spring!

    Secondly… Nicola has indicated more than once she want/needs to hear the demand for Indy ref 2,so Mibbi it is time to start makin noise!!

    Yes Liz, but Nicola said that in 2016, after sidestepping the Remain mandate that said loudly and proudly that we wanted to stay in Europe, then opted for a soft Brexit compromise to stay in the Customs Union. If you check back, you’ll find my quote on Wings which was appalled by Nicola’s “wait and see the details of Brexit” strategy not just because it confounded our sovereign expression of will, but because it immediately forfeited ALL the initiative to Theresa May, and that has bedevilled us every single day since. Even now, with 6 weeks to Brexit, we are still entirely dependent upon what Theresa May says or does next. I’m sorry to say, but this has been our inevitable destination since July 2016.

    Compare that to Mary Lou MacDonald. This time last week, I didn’t even know who she was, yet in a single speech, it was perfectly clear she had Theresa May bent double on the ropes, and huckled at every turn with treaties, agreements and protocols backed by the global community which May now breaks at her grave peril. I’m profoundly jealous that Scotland couldn’t use our strength to apply a body slam and Constitutional headlock of our own.

    Tell me something, anything, to alleviate my concerns and make me feel good about it?

    We’re going to extend Article 50??? Err, no we’re not.
    We’re backing the Peoples’ Vote. No Brexit! Oh jings…

  219. Liz g says:

    Breeks @ 4.01
    In the course of normal politics,yes I’d agree,I’m sick of politicians keeping us guessing about how they will respond to things.I’m all for transparency in government.
    But in this instance,I cannot agree.
    We are not governed normally,we are governed by a parliament in another country hostile to our representatives.

    There’s also a large element in our own Holyrood who are looking for any chink in the SNP to bring them down,not to replace them for as many terms of government as they can persuade the electorate of,but to destroy the party altogether,for the advantage of the foreign parliament even though the SNP are the Scottish people’s choice to govern.

    So therefore it would be fair to say that the SNP are probably quite right not to show too much,if anything at all of their plans… Plans that after all are about removing the power of the foreign parliament over our resources and our people ….don’t ye think?

  220. Cubby says:


    “SNP delivered in 2014, we let them down by voting no.”

    Well worth repeating. SNP the only Party that has come anywhere near ending the Treaty of Union – respect is due for that alone.

    We will find out eventually if we are now being led by the likes of Bruce or a bunch of Charlie’s. Until then as Proud Cybernat said “Hold”.

  221. Referendum1707 says:

    Undeadshawn 6.35

    Zerohedge does have what might be described as “libertarian” leanings and it shows but it’s nonsense to suggest that it’s on a par with bbc and daily mail.

  222. Jack Murphy says:

    It’s nearing the end of this Wing’s Thread so I’ll just pop in something Off-Topic.

    This morning Independence Live TV transmitted ‘The Norrie Hunter Show’ with Iain Lawson as the Studio Guest in a 3 hour broadcast

    Kevin also has a wee chat with the presenter closer to end of transmission.
    Don’t be distracted by the passing traffic out the window. [smile].

  223. Colin Alexander says:

    Dr Jim

    My mother waited FOUR HOURS for an ambulance for a serious head wound.

    After stitches at the then Western in Glasgow, it was a Red Cross ambulance who took her home. We were told, if she wanted to wait for a Scottish Ambulance Service ambulance, she might have to wait another few hours.

    So, good for the Red Cross. I’m no having a go at the NHS ambulance service.

    (The Scottish ambulance people were brilliant when they did arrive. They told us NHS24 are crap. That we should have ignored them and insisted it’s an emergency, as the ambulance crew’s morning had been wasted ferrying attention seekers anyway.)

  224. Cubby says:

    Liz g@4.42pm

    Spot on. You would have thought it was obvious to most people that if you have plans you do not go around telling everyone what they are, not even Breeks.

    Is it not also possible that the 2016 sect 30 call was all part of a plan rather than the mistake it was widely held to be. We do not know. There may well be no plan. Time will tell but what is to be gained at present by criticising the SNP – nothing.

    Picked up a copy of my local paper the Extra. Front page all about Jeggit and a storyline that implies independence supporters agree British soldiers in N. Ireland should be shot at. Carlaw smearing all of us. Why do we need criticism on Wings it is everywhere you look.

  225. Robert Peffers says:

    @Proud Cybernat says: 15 February, 2019 at 1:32 pm:

    ” … Next time you’re on a march:
    We’re on the march wi’ Nicky’s army,
    ‘Cos we all know that indy’s fine.
    And we’ll shake Westminster up,
    When we get them a’ tae fuck,
    ‘Cos Scotland knows that now is indy time.”

    We could also use a well known bit of music that almost everyone will recognise but many will not know the title or the lyrics:-

    “I wish I knew how it would feel to be free”.

    Here is the Nina Simone version with the lyrics on Screen:-

  226. Liz g says:

    Breeks @ 4.38
    Well Mibbi it was a mistake,not to run with it in 2016!
    I have no real way of knowing.
    We can’t call judgement on that, till we get an explanation of the decision,which won’t be forthcoming till Nicola has left office,which is the normal way of it.
    And even then only with the benefit of knowing how everything else had played out!

    But she didn’t and we are where we are,so it’s really just an academic discussion (for us) at this point that in time.

    And no I don’t envy N.Ireland their position,I’m glad they have their Treaty arrangements front and centre of their negotiations,but it could be argued it’s real strength comes from the Americans having underwritten it and that as one of their very few foreign policy successes,they are going to shield it…
    We don’t have that so it’s apples and oranges to compare and contrast the two.
    As to something to cheer ye… We’ll as far as I can see Nicola is a quick study and if the 2016 decision was a indeed a mistake,it’s one she’ll no likely make again!

  227. yesindyref2 says:

    Also, it’s branch delegates who vote to decide policy at conference, not individual members.

    Oh do shut up you blithering idiot. Even in my 3 years as am SNP member I could have been a delegate if I wanted – and therefore voted. I WAS a co-opted committee member, though I think that was to try to pressure me into pushing stupid leaflets into recycling bins via letter boxes. So you know nothing.

  228. orri says:

    Council places of work are exempt due to the fact that all they’d be doing is moving money from one account to another.
    If they decided to take money from their staff then that would be a deliberate act. Especially if doing so meant HMRC became due part of the transaction thus taking away from the council. Even more idiotic if they gave pay rises as a propaganda exercise. So rather than the council covering it their employees did.

  229. Dr Jim says:

    Really scraping the barrel now son, an incident that happened at least four years ago because the Western closed in 2015

    Then *you say* serious head injury, but didn’t inform anyone properly obviously

    Then *you say* it was NHS 24 so not 999 for an emergency head injury

    Then *you say* some gibberish unsubstantiated hearsay that *you say* was told to you by some third unidentified person

    Gosh I hope everyone reads this, I definitely believe everything you say, no! I really really do, honest!

  230. yesindyref2 says:

    The SNP criticism thing started really in 2012 with the emerging Referendum. All the media talked about Independence as though it was only an SNP thing, and tried to associate it only with the SNP. Many of us fought this “I’m non-aligned”.

    But the media attacked the SNP on every front to get at Independence, and even though non-aligned, Green, SSP or any other, a lot of us were basically forced to defend the SNP on all fronts, as an attack on the SNP was an attack on Independence.

    One of the things for instance was Salmond and Murdoch, another Salmond and Trump. It made life difficult.

    During the Ref with the various YES groups the “Independence = SNP” attack lost a bit of traction, and some of us, very few sadly, were able occasionally to actually criticise the SNP, same as others did. They’re not perfect and though normally it might be so minor you wouldn’t bother, it fought the new attack “The SNP are a mindless cult”.

    Nowadays, specially with the 6 Green MSPs, SNP = Independence has even less traction though many still try, so this really is a time where we should criticise the SNP a bit more, very carefully, but particualrly about relatively unimportant polices – like Named Person, or the Workplace Parking Levy though of course that isn’t an SNP policy.

    There is less comments about “SNP cult” than previously, though some still try to say that Sturgeon has thrown out a few carrots to please the mindless cult members. I think they make themselves look stupid, there are so many now actively disagreeing with the – apparent – SNP policies on Independence.

    The problem is that the attitude “an attack on the SNP is an attack on Independence” is still very ingrained in some people, who rush straight away to defend the SNP, even if there’s no or little need.

    mmmm, that was pretty boring, frankly.

  231. Liz g says:

    Chubby @ 4.59
    You might indeed be right and she was never really going to go for it in 2016.
    It certainly fits with the reasoning that we haven’t been dragged out of the EU till we have.
    It could also be a bit to do with the outcome of all the trips to Europe around that time.
    While I can see faults with the SNP ( I’m not a member) at this point in time I can only say that ….sometimes ye just have to have a bit of trust… As has been said the SNP did, in the very recent past arrange for us all to get out this bloody union,and we didn’t go.
    To get mad at them for no doing it again “quick” enough is a bit shitty… almost,but only almost as shitty as voting no the first time,which was, what ever the reason a shitty thing to do to yer country.

  232. gus1940 says:

    On a daily basis we are bombarded with the old ‘We cannot and do not comment on individual cases’

    Where did this excuse originate and is there any law backing up its use as a get out of commenting excuse.

  233. Clootie says:

    I see Colin had a very convenient story to tell at just the right time to deflect once again.

  234. Liz g says:

    So sorry about your name this auto correct hates me.
    Sorry I didn’t catch it… Last night (and I’m not sayin who) it actually changed someone’s name to perversion..
    Hammers for sure for that one I think,luckily I caught it 🙂

  235. Dr Jim says:


    It’s as you say everybody and anybody in the SNP gets a say whether at branch level or if you choose to be a delegate and are selected by the branch, you can also choose to email or write to the high heid yins and get a reply as I myself have done

    Everything isn’t always perfect, what ever is, but when you’re dealing with so many people so quickly after the 2014 influx the system creaks a bit at branch level in different areas, but as a political party there’s none other as democratic as the SNP try very hard to be, and of course there are things to be improved upon but in general the SNP is a fantastic party to be a member of if you’re going to be a member of anything, it’s like a family, sometimes there are rows fallouts misunderstandings but the end result is the desire for Independence for Scotland above all else and it runs through our DNA like brothers and sisters and like brothers and sisters we fight for our own when attacked

    Some folk don’t get that it’s taken us a long hard battle of putting up with every abuse that could be thrown at us and to be just a hop skip and a jump away from the goal we all want, for people to doubt us now is something all of us in the SNP just find crazy talk

  236. Cubby says:

    Liz g@5.18pm

    Sturgeon can now say that she tried to follow the Sec 30 route and has been waiting for 3 years.

    As you say we are still not definitely going to be leaving the EU. It is highly unlikely but not impossible that Article 50 is revoked. My forecast of no deal Brexit, united Ireland and independent Scotland is looking more likely as each day passes but no one knows for sure what will happen.

    PS. I did put on a small amount of weight over Xmas and New Year but far from Chubby. LOL

  237. Colin Alexander says:

    I forgot to mention, the SSP. They also knew they were being asked to swear allegiance to the English Crown.

    That’s why they crossed their fingers behind their backs and treated it as a joke.

    They made it clear their allegiance was to the sovereign people of Scotland, not to the sovereign Queen of England.

  238. yesindyref2 says:

    @Dr Jim
    I was savaqe I couldn’t manage it, other commitments probably work can’t remember. I really wanted to do the whole political party thing having taken the step of joining, never having been a member of any. Conference, the side shows, meeting and talking, listening to the debates – and voting. Savage. I nearly had joined back in the early 80s, kept running into the branch sec outside Hagans and blethering for hours, but decided I was more into pubs and parties but not that sort of party!

    Yeah, I said “co-opted”, I meant proposed, seconded and voted at the appropriate meeting. It’s community councils are more into co-opting.

  239. Cubby says:

    Proud Cybernat@1.32pm

    I applaud and agree with your motivation re a song to sing at marches. It was also discussed on Indy this morning. I do however have reservations about singing the f word. I don’t know about you but the marches I have been on included small children and even a woman with her baby in a pram. I don’t think it is an appropriate word to sing just for that reason alone.

  240. Liz g says:

    Cubby definitely Cubby 🙂 @ 5.34
    Yes exactly…. Three years ago May said now it not the time,and in THREE YEARS she hasn’t ever found the time to consider Scotland… It could be argued Nicola gave her time,she’s had her time…And now it’s Our time 🙂

  241. Colin Alexander says:


    So you could have been a delegate.

    It doesn’t change the fact, SNP policy is made by delegates at conference, not the one member one vote as implied by Dr Jim.

    Not all delegates are allocated by branch membership either.

    Also, if branch delegates don’t toe the party leadership line, the branch can be dissolved by the NEC.

    That’s one of the reasons I didn’t renew my membership. I thought the SNP was democratic, it’s not as democratic as I would have liked.

  242. Cubby says:

    Good for the kids re climate change protests.

    There is a national disaster in the USA it’s called Trump.

    There is a national disaster in the UK it’s called a Maybot.

  243. Cubby says:

    Dr Jim@5.13pm

    Wonder how long Mr Alexander will take to think up a reply to your post. Or will he just not bother?

  244. Capella says:

    @ Breeks – Mary Lou McDonald is an Irish politician representing Dublin. She is not beholden to Westminster or Theresa May for anything and can rely on the backing of the Irish Republic in her criticism of Theresa May.

    It is easier to speak freely when you are free to speak.

  245. Brian Powell says:

    Delegates form branches are not expected to follow the party line, they represent the membership of the branch. Anyone from the branch can be a delegate.

    The conditions for ‘dissolving’ a branch is very strict and that branch would simply join with another branch if, in extreme circumstances, that happened.

    A 125,000 members couldn’t vote on each resolution, that’s why branches send delegates.

  246. uno mas says:

    And today I believe striking school children in London were chanting “fuck Theresa May”

    Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings as the old saying goes!!

  247. Cubby says:

    The BBC news at 6 have just broadcast a report on disinformation and fake news – Russia of course and others but not the BBC. Full marks to the BBC for their brass neck. The BBC telling its viewers it is working to protect them from fake news.

    The BBC the grand masters of propaganda.

  248. Robert Peffers says:

    @Sorcha S. says: 15 February, 2019 at 2:47 pm:

    ” … I appreciate this is a lifelong subject of interest for many here and they have very strong views but regarding the constitutional assertions made here could people put some links if they make claims about sovereignty and the law?”

    Simple wee question, Sorcha S – Does, “The Declaration of Arbroath”, which is the basis of, “The Scottish Rule of Law”, and which clearly states the monarchy is NOT sovereign, under the independent Scottish Rule of Law and, “The Treaty of Union”, which is the currently active bipartite international treaty that constitutes the political union of kingdoms called, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”, qualify, (in your view), as proof positive that the Westminster Government is not being currently run as a bipartite union of two kingdoms?

    Could you indicate, with links if possible, what further proof you require to prove these points beyond any reasonable doubt?

    Just to be abundantly clear – The Treaty of Union clearly states both Scots Law and English Law must forever remain independent.

    Scottish law on sovereignty was affirmed by the international authority when it was submitted to them in 1320 as was the fact that the Scottish Kingdom was an independent kingdom. Especially that it was independent from the then Kingdom of England to the extent it specifically mentions only The Kingdom of England.

    The Treaty of Union is extant, if it were not there would be no United Kingdom. The Treaty of Union has only two signatory kingdoms and, in order to legally sign an international treaty, both parties must be equally sovereign.

    Thus under Scots law the people remain sovereign and, strangely enough, under the English law in 1688 the law of England stated that monarchs were legally sovereign but a sovereign, just by being sovereign, cannot give away their sovereignty because it legally belongs to the kingdom.

    Thus English monarchs either die as legal sovereign or they abdicate their sovereignty to the next in line. English law, in 1688, also ruled that the sovereigns, (there were two joint England monarchs in 1688), had to legally delegate the Parliament of England to exercise their sovereignty.

    However, there has been no parliament of England since April 1707 and Westminster is The United Kingdom Parliament not the elected as such Parliament of England and the Treaty of Union states both partner kingdoms Rule of Law must remain independent.

    You will note I link to both the Declaration of Arbroath and the Treaty of Union – no other links are needed to prove the argument.

    What there is not is any proof whatsoever, and no links whatsoever, to prove otherwise that Westminster or the Queen of England is also sovereign in the Kingdom of Scotland.

    When such links can be provided then, and only then is there a reasoned debate. Westminster claiming to be sovereign over Scotland has not ever been established with links to prove it as factual.

  249. Dr Jim says:


    You don’t mind folk getting something wrong, making a mistake or even at times blurting out a plie of nonsense, that’s human and normal, but this guy is such a malicious and compulsive liar who knows he’s unpopular yet persists and that says it all

  250. Sorcha S. says:

    @Robert Peffers

    Thank you for your restraint on this occasion. Your attempt to help has been noted.

  251. t42 says:

    O/T European Parliament slides further down the toilet bowl of history as it BANS a press conference by Carles Puigdemont and Quim Torra citing “security threats.”
    Spain’s three largest parties opposing Catalan independence had sent a letter to the parliament president, Antonio Tajani, urging him to prohibit the event.

  252. Gary45% says:

    uno mass@6.22
    Very proud of the youth voicing their opinions today.
    However the cynic in me says,recently the establishment have been blaming the “older generation” for the state of the union ” the young paying for the older generations pensions etc”.= BAAAD,
    I have a fear this is the “establishment” starting to cause friction “through the back door” between the masses.
    Peterhead Carbon Capture anyone? (Tories shame)
    We had climate change headlining in the media a few years ago, and all that happened was fossil fuels got taxed higher, and punters made to feel guilty.

    Climate Change? you cannot tax a volcano!!(speak to a Volcanologist, I have.)

    By the way, America has already FKD the planet, and will continue to do so.
    And before any “hemp wearing tree hugger” starts on me.
    We are FKing up the planet, but war has caused more destruction than any coal fire/ car engine.

  253. Colin Alexander says:

    Brian Powell

    Thank you for your explanations that confirm delegates, not individual members, vote to decide policy of the SNP.

    I remember being able to select preferred candidates for something or other online.

    If policy were also decided this way it would allow a greater participation of one member one vote.

    But that’s the last I’ll say on how the SNP do things.

    That’s for SNP members, I’m not part of the SNP. So, no my problem.

  254. Liz g says:

    Just saw the SNP party political broadcast with Mike Russell.
    Except it was a Yes/Indy broadcast.
    And it was good… so good to finally hear what I think, what looked and sounded like, the start of Indy Ref 2. Yay 🙂

  255. Nana says:

    @Feorlean and Elena Morozowa highlighting the vital contribution EU nationals make in Scotland’s Highlands and Islands and rural communities – and how only independence puts Scotland’s future in Scotland’s hands.

  256. Colin Alexander says:

    Dr Jim

    My comment was not even about the SNP, it was praise for the Scottish Ambulance Service and Red Cross ambulance service.

    The Red Cross helped my mother and they help others too. So, I’m merely sharing my anecdote about the Red Cross ambulances.

    They help our overworked and under-appreciated Scottish Ambulance Service, so they do a good job and deserve praise.

  257. Colin Alexander says:

    Robert Peffers

    Regarding your post above

    Do you accept SNP politicians swear allegiance to the monarch in Parliament, namely the Queen of England, the ENGLISH Crown?

    So in effect, committing treason against the sovereign people of Scotland by swearing their allegiance to the Queen of England?

  258. Liz g says:

    Gary 45% @ 7.04
    I agree that any and all issues are used by the political and media class to divide, rule and tax.
    While I’ve never hugged a tree and I thought they only make rope from Hemp…
    Nor am I a Green Party member .
    I do kinda like the notion of doing what we can to keep things as clean and pollutant free as possible.
    In my country and in my own location it just makes sense.
    Some of its a con I’ll grant you, but the idea of renewable energy and less rubbish about really appeals to me personally…. and when it comes to food, I could also get onboard with the organic stuff for everyone… It,for me,feels more like progression for the people and not ideology..
    Jist sayin

  259. Contrary says:

    Sorry, I should have said in this comment that it is just a small part of a draft overall strategy to get some mass conversions to independence, it isn’t relevant to chat amongst yourselves, it’s if you are going out or venturing forth to influence people, and the list was to indicate when there is little point in trying, I should have made that clear before

  260. Iain 2 says:

    I see mi 5 still places lots of authority on Wings judging by their agents panic stricken posts.

  261. galamcennalath says:

    Nana says:

    @Feorlean and Elena Morozowa highlighting the vital contribution EU nationals make

    Comments after are interesting. BritNats are bricking it. Not only because of the way they pile in, but also by the intemperate angry tone they adopt immediately.

    When did anyone last hear a positive and well constructed case FOR their Union? Never, because there is none and they know it.

  262. Iain 2 says:

    Robert Peffers the People of Scotland will owe you a big debt and I hope your contribution to Scottish freedom will not be forgotten.

  263. Gary45% says:

    Liz g@7.29
    I am a hemp wearing tree hugger,
    A hippy at heart, but well aware of the “corporate blinding of the populous”.

  264. Colin Alexander says:


    Colonialists don’t have to give a positive case for the Union.

    They just claim on the BBC the future would be worse under independence.

    Now, how do you prove or disprove some non-determined date in the future?

    How do you compare indy-Scotland v UK Scotland at this future date, as Scotland couldn’t be both at the same time, even if you had a time machine?

  265. yesindyref2 says:

    A lot of colon emissions going on tonight.

    Phewie 🙁

  266. Liz g says:

    Ronnie Anderson @ 7.55
    Eh NAW
    Either ma wee tablet is hivin a breakdown.
    Or you are and need an actual tablet…
    That’s a giant snake strangling a dug!!

  267. Liz g says:

    Gary 45% @ 7.58
    How Do ye wear a rope?
    And don’t say at a jonty angle 🙂

  268. heraldnomore says:

    Oh FFS there’s the oh-so-fragrant Ms Calman getting all excited about Scotland over on 5. Some of us remember how excited about Scotland you were just a few years ago; that and the green gnome. Off button, until The Cromson Rivers starts.

  269. ronnie anderson says:

    liz g go fur ah lie doon yer hallucinating lol

  270. Scott says:

    O/T I wonder if BBC will report on this as they were all over it at the time.

  271. Undeadshaun says:

    Off topic

    Watching secret Scotland on c5 and didn’t know that the wallace monument was built on 19th century equivalent of crowd funding with public donations.

    At what would be £1million in today’s money. Just shows even then clamour for independence was high.

  272. Tinto Chiel says:

    In case anyone missed a great article in Nana’s links this morning:

    Well worth a read.

  273. Undeadshaun says:

    Ps don’t feed the uionist trolls fae 77th brigade.

    They soond like complete numpty numb nuts bawheid bawbags tonicht.

  274. cynicalHighlander says:

    Liz g

    You need to get out into the wider environment and hug a few trees as it could save your sanity in this mad world we live in.

  275. Cubby says:

    Colin Alexander@7.27pm

    You don’t even say which parliament you refer to. Time waster.

    Britnats refer to Parliament. A dead give away. Britnats think there is only one Parliament.

    Independence supporters would say the UK parliament or the Scottish parliament

    You are nothing more than a smarter ” rock”

  276. Liz g says:

    Ronnie Anderson @ 8.15
    Ah don’t worry Ronnie the dug goat away…although it would have been freed a lot faster if the guy would have put the camera doon and helped… 🙂
    But honesty that link took me to a giant snake strangling a dug I’ve tried it twice….I now call it Britta V Scotia and while it’s scary fur a while there….Wee Scotia makes it in the end…nae thanks tae the media who just staun there right enough.
    But I’m guessing that’s no the message ye hid intended me tae see….?
    Otherwise I’ll need tae bring back up tae Dows 🙂

  277. Liz g says:

    Cynical Highlander @ 8.27
    Well I would but any time I’m near a tree ma dug is pishing up it,so it’s no going to be very calming… Nae giant snakes right enough so no aw stress 🙂

  278. ronnie anderson says:

    liz g


  279. Confused says:

    Susan Calman – WHO DAT?

    Getting a one hour prog on telly would seem to indicate something

    – why is a short, fat little toyboy wummin making facile and trivial remarks about Scotland, the elysian fields, the new atlantis, the throne room of the mountain gods …

    So I googled … turns out she is a comedian.

    It’s bad when someone has to TELL you that. Oh right … ah thought ye wur a model … for michelin man

    – here’s a classic from an alkie english ponce, now drinking with the angels

    the other thing I found was this bleating

    it’s oddly impressive to maintain a media career when you don’t look good and you aren’t even funny – and when you make a joke, people “want to kill you” (she said that, not really)

    a lesson for us all – succeed with talent and hard work? – no, just flatter the narratives of the powerful

  280. ronnie anderson says:

    Liz g fek it ah think ah need tae cleear oot me cache & run ah scan

  281. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Undeadshaun at 8:18 pm.

    You typed,

    “Watching secret Scotland on c5 and didn’t know that the wallace monument was built on 19th century equivalent of crowd funding with public donations.”

    To add to your knowledge of crowdfunders.

    The biggest memorial to Prince Albert, outside London, was built in Dundee, through ‘public subscription’, as The Albert Institute. It now forms the west wing of the McManus Galleries, as the original building, of the 1860s, was extended over the following thirty years or so.


    “The concept for the building was originally commissioned as a memorial to Prince Albert and intended to contain room for lectures, museum, picture gallery and a reference library for students by the British Association for the Advancement of Science.[1] It was agreed that the funding for the building should be provided by the inhabitants of Dundee. Although the city could not afford such a lavish memorial outright, it did contribute £300. A guaranteed fund of £4,205 15/- from 168 contributors was collected which included a munificent gift from the Baxter family which totalled £420.[1]

    The building was designed by the architect George Gilbert Scott, who was an expert for the restoration of mediaeval churches and advocate of the Gothic architectural style.

    Here’s a pic…

  282. Petra says:

    Spot on Cubby and I hope that you don’t mind me reposting your comments because they are well worth considering. If we want to see, hear and read about how bad Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP are we can watch the television, listen to the radio or read the newspapers, as you say. EVERY last one of them bar the National. The reason for the hellish bombardment of ”SNP Baad” in the Media is because THEY are seen to be the GREATEST threat to this Union. With that in mind ask yourself why certain individuals posting on this site have made a full time job out of attempting to discredit Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP at every turn.

    Cubby says at 4:05 pm …. ”The SNP/Scotgov get criticised by:

    1. All the British Nationalist parties in Holyrood.

    2. All the British Nationalist parties in Westminster.

    3. All the British Nationalist councillors throughout Scotland.

    4. The British Nationalist controlled Unions.

    5. The British Nationalist controlled media throughout the UK.

    6. British Nationalists from all sectors of Scottish, N. Irish, English and Welsh society making up stories.

    7. British Nationalists on social media eg twitter and Facebook.

    8. Foreign heads of state put up to it by Westminster e.g. Obama.

    Is this not enough for some people? I repeat is this not enough?

    Let’s encourage independence supporters to all pile in as well. Is that it!!!!!!!!

    I am not an SNP member and I have often had questions or doubts about their strategy over past decades but I saw and still see no value in piling in with all of the above other than disproving that the SNP is not a cult.

    If I want to hear/ see people slagging off the SNP I just have to turn on the telly/ radio or pick up a newspaper. Why would I want to hear more of the same on Wings?”

  283. Brian Doonthetoon says:


    For the first time ever, my comment, which I have just submitted, is returning the message,

    “Your comment is awaiting moderation.”

    Wonder where it went wrong? Must re-read.

  284. Liz g says:

    Ronnie Anderson @ 8.45
    Em whit ever floats yer boat Ronnie you go right ahead..
    We’ll say nay mair aboot it 🙂

  285. Petra says:

    @ yesindyref2 says at 8:09 pm …. ”A lot of colon emissions going on tonight. Phewie ?”

    With you contributing yesindyref2?

    ”Nowadays, specially with the 6 Green MSPs, SNP = Independence has even less traction though many still try, so this really is a time where we should criticise the SNP a bit more, very carefully, but particualrly about relatively unimportant polices – like Named Person, or the Workplace Parking Levy though of course that isn’t an SNP policy.”…

    ”The problem is that the attitude “an attack on the SNP is an attack on Independence” is still very ingrained in some people, who rush straight away to defend the SNP, even if there’s no or little need.”

  286. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Nah, it doesn’t include r-*-p-e.

    Onnyhoo, it was at 8.47. Maybe it’ll show up, maybe it won’t.

  287. Liz g says:

    Ronnie Anderson @ 8.45
    Ha Ha actually i wull say a wee bit mair
    I’ve just been informed it’s no a giant snake its an Annaconda….so you’re noo Ronnie Anaconda Anderson in this hoose 🙂

  288. cynicalHighlander says:

    Liz g

    What have you got a giant Bull Mastiff!!

  289. yesindyref2 says:

    QED …

  290. wull says:

    Don’t worry, Brian. It’s automatic, not personal. There must be a specific word in there which automatically sends the post to the moderator. Your post will come back again when it’s checked out and it will be seen that the way you are using the word is innocuous.

    It happened to me a couple of times too. The inconvenience is that – obviously – the moderator can’t work 24 hours a day, and it can take a little while before the post eventually appears. I suppose there is a sensitivity over some words that could be used in such an offensive way that it might verge on the criminal. Naturally, the site has to safeguard itself against anything like that appearing on it. It’s just a precaution.

    Knowing your posts, which I appreciate, there won’t be a problem.

  291. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Wull.

    It was only some info about a crowdfunder in Dundee in the 1860s, in response to Undeadshaun at 8:18 pm.

  292. Liz g says:

    Cynical Highlander @ 8.57
    Actually the slightly taller Spanish Mastiff…
    So you can see my predicament!:-)

  293. ronnie anderson says:

    Confused calman’s reward for supporting the union in 2014 presenting a couple of tv shows , she wiz shit as a quiz host an she’s shit at presenting that programme .

    Did U ken she’s ah friend of Ruthie’s.

  294. cynicalHighlander says:

    Liz g

    Stilts. 🙂

  295. Robert Peffers says:

    @Bill says: 15 February, 2019 at 3:00 pm:

    ” … Breeks, it’s a well known phenomenon that any critisim of SNP policy is taken very badly by Yes groups.”

    Just like Breeks, Bill, you, probably deliberately, totally miss the point.

    Firstly you make the mistake of classing the YES Group as if it were the SNP – it isn’t. Before going further the SNP is itself a broad church with a wide membership from across the political spectrum. The YES movement is even more of a broad church.

    In any case the criticism of anti-FM/SG/SNP is not about trolling – it is, as already stated, being harmful to the movement.

    Just like big families who constantly fight among themselves but never wash their dirty linen in public. The criticism is that those being criticised for their constant and corrosive criticisms of the FM/SG/SNP are doing so on an open forum to the obvious delight of the unionist/blue/red/orange Tories of Westminster. Note the many recent claims of a non-existent, “SNP Civil War”.

    Every persistent drip here on Wings is read by and gives heart to the unionist cause. This has been told to the likes of Breeks, Colin and various others – yet none of them, in spite of the explanations, have ceased to stop their constant attacks upon the movement they invariably claim to support.

    Complaining about them is hardly supportive – now is it? What is more it achieves nothing by way of changing anything the FM/SG/SNP does or attempts tp do.

    It has been explained many, many times that the SNP/FM and SG are a bottom up democratic organisation. Only the delegates sent by the rank & file to National Conference can change the party policies. It is in the party rules and not even Nicola Sturgeon herself can change party policies. Mind you she is so well supported and usually proven to be correct that her ideas and ideals are often followed by the rank & file. That, however, is only because she is usually right.

    Now here’s another wee observation by me that may open a few eyes. Quite suddenly, on this very thread, we have a concerted attack on what is being termed, “Troll Hunters”. Now this could just be a coincidence – but it is a damned convenient coincidence and reeks of coordination. Some of them are not exactly weel kent contributers. Why did they appear all at once and all with the same theme – note they all claim, “Troll Hunters”, yet much of the criticism levelled at the accused people they seek to defend have mentioned the words troll or trolled.

    Breeks makes a long attack but has not even got the courage to name who he attacks. Nothing that attacks the FM/SG or SNP on this forum will change the FM/SG/SNP and the offenders have been told if they want to affect change to take their complains to the FM/SG/SNP and these are all exceptionally approachable – both on-line, by website, by telephone or by text phone. Even on walkabout on the street. Unlike, for example The PM – who arrives in a convoy flanked by armed guards and leave the same way at speed.

    No one says not to criticise – just don’t do it where it cannot affect change or where it boosts the opposition.

  296. Petra says:

    Does anyone else on here not find it strange that not one Constitutional expert, of MANY, has advised Nicola Sturgeon about the ”Breeks Sovereignty Theory”, unless it’s to tell her to stay well away from it (at this particular time – maybe). There’s been absolutely no discussion amongst Constitutional experts online about the ”Breeks Sovereignty Theory” either and no books written about it. Not only that the person in question could have contacted any number of Constitutional experts over the last few years to get the theory corroborated, but hasn’t. Could have attended meetings and spoken to Joanna Cherry or contacted her on Twitter, but hasn’t. And so it goes on.

    As I said already. Strange.


    Tel: +44 (0)131-650-2070


    Phone: 01415483546


    Phone Number: +44 (0) 7758 329 876
    Email Address:


  297. Petra says:

    Does anyone else on here not find it strange that not one Constitutional expert, of MANY, has advised Nicola Sturgeon about the ”Breeks Sovereignty Theory”, unless it’s to tell her to stay well away from it (at this particular time – maybe). There’s been absolutely no discussion amongst Constitutional experts online about the ”Breeks Sovereignty Theory” either and no books written about it. Not only that the person in question could have contacted any number of Constitutional experts over the last few years to get the theory corroborated, but hasn’t. Could have attended meetings and spoken to Joanna Cherry or contacted her on Twitter, but hasn’t. And so it goes on.

    As I said already. Strange.

  298. Petra says:

    Constitutional Experts – phone numbers and email addresses.

    Tel: +44 (0)131-650-2070
    Email: s [dot] tierney [at] ed [dot] ac [dot] uk


    Phone: 01415483546
    Email: aileen [dot] mcharg [at] strath [dot] ac [dot] uk

  299. Petra says:

    Phone Number: +44 (0) 7758 329 876

    Email Address: m [dot] keating [at] abdn [dot] ac [dot] uk


  300. geeo says:


    You may want to review your whole philosophy now that coco has decided you are a spokesman for his rather dim-witted views (4.38pm).

    A crushing set back surely ?

  301. Liz g says:

    Cynical Highlander @ 9.25
    Picture this….
    Big Mastiff having a quiet pish against a tree…
    Me and ma stilts approach fur said tree hug..
    Mastiff suddenly sees a giant stick moving right in front of it.
    Can ye picture it Cynical Highlander…. Whit dae ye think happens next….
    No a quiet moment wi nature let me tell ya… 🙂

  302. Nana says:


    “Just saw the SNP party political broadcast with Mike Russell.
    Except it was a Yes/Indy broadcast.”

    See 7.14pm. Is that what you watched earlier?

  303. Petra says:

    Still up to their old tricks.

    Michael Keating: ‘Building the Union Again. The New Act of Union.’

    …” The last part of the bill, however goes in a very different direction. There is to be a single civil service, which seems intended to be a strong force for cohesion, as though the bureaucracy should provide a centripetal balance to the centrifugal tendencies of politics.

    Most strikingly of all, there is a clause that provides that nothing in the Act will affect the sovereignty of the UK Parliament, which even retains the power to amend or repeal the Act of Union itself. Such a clause has featured in every devolution bill since 1886, with the exception of one Scotland bill in the 1920s. It is the essential difference between devolution and the federal or confederal alternatives. It is also in glaring contradiction with the commitment to the sovereignty of the nations on which the earlier part of the proposal is based.”…

  304. Sarah says:

    O/T @Tackety Beets re carrot fly advice. I couldn’t do worse than last time I grew carrots – I had them in a bed next to parsnips and both crops were absolutely riddled with carrot fly [I presume] – nothing edible at all.

    The year before that I grew them in a bed with clear plastic walls – I thought that’ll keep the fly off. It probably would have if something else hadn’t got there first – slugs, mice I don’t know but the seedlings were wiped out overnight!

  305. yesindyref2 says:

    A 5 second gogle gives this:

    Instead, what is constitutionally significant about devolution is its basis in an explicit assertion of the sovereignty of the Scottish people (reinforced by popular consent through a referendum), and the platform it provides for the accentuation and proliferation of political, institutional, and policy difference, and the assertion of further autonomy claims.

  306. Robert Peffers says:

    @Colin Alexander says: 15 February, 2019 at 3:43 pm:

    ” … Also, it’s branch delegates who vote to decide policy at conference, not individual members.
    So, you don’t have a direct vote unless you are a conference delegate.”

    What pish! Branches debate and keep minutes and the members select the delegates. The delegates take branch decisions to conference and vote for the branch.

    ” … That’s how the SNP leadership exercise control, which enables them to have a “pro-independence” party and party conference with no debates about independence.”

    More pish! Did you watch the close debate and decision on NATO Membership? If the leadership were controlling that they were making a bloody bad job of it. If they had been do you imagine it would have been such a close run thing? Furthermore elected to Government people resigned from the party.

    Why if the leadership were controlling things were these people on the selection lists and then elected?

  307. Cubby says:

    Ronnie Anderson@9.19pm

    I always thought she might be truthless’s wee sister.

  308. cynicalHighlander says:

    Liz g

    Fair enough .

  309. yesindyref2 says:

    In six weeks, they’re going to take away my European Citizenship. I’m bloody livid about that.

    I’m personally getting a bit fed up with this. Not about what Breeks says, but the knee-jerk reaction to the wraparound for what is a simple message: “In six weeks, they’re going to take away my European Citizenship. I’m bloody livid about that.”.

    62% of Scotland voted Remain, it’s taking time to waken up, but the hope since June 2016 is that there’s an increasing number of Remainers who weren’t YES voters will be saying themselves:

    “In six weeks, they’re going to take away my European Citizenship. I’m bloody livid about that.”

    And if anyone bothers to pay attention to Mike Russell and half the SNP MPs in the House of Commons, the noisy ones, and even Nicola Sturgeon in a quiet oblique way, they are saying in different words:

    In six weeks, they’re going to take away my European Citizenship. I’m bloody livid about that.“.

    If this moves people over to YES, would someone mind telling me what is wrong with that attitude?

    Considering it’s Independence we want?

    A YES vote?

  310. Tinto Chiel says:

    @Petra 9.34: none of what you said there makes any sense, since you can’t know anything about these putative events, one way or the other. Strange you should make these comments, therefore.

    Breeks raises legitimate concerns in an intelligent way and, although I don’t agree with him all that often, he deserves a platform here as well as anyone. I would have been happy with the SG’s relentless campaign to remain in the CU and SM and agitate for a PV or extension if it had equally been screaming about Scottish citizens being pulled out of the EU after a 62% remain vote.

    To sum up: either NS and the SG have the best poker face ever, or the triple mandate is being frittered away trying to save England from itself.

    Time will tell. Not long to go now, one way or another.

    And before the predictable loyalist comments come flying in, I first voted SNP in 1974 and in every election since.

  311. Dr Jim says:

    When the *British* say they want *cohesion* they have a different definition in their dictionary

    Cohesion = The action or fact of forming a united whole = unity = togetherness, in the Yoon dictionary that means *Rule*

    Sounds the same to them *normally*

  312. CameronB Brodie says:

    Gosh. 🙂

  313. yesindyref2 says:

    In fact that is such a good strong fighting talk summary I’m going to use that exact quote elsewhere if Breeks doesn’t mind. I reserve the right to change “bloody” to “bloo[ming]”.

  314. Dorothy Devine says:

    The lady of whom you speak is daughter of the man after whom the Calman report was named.

    She took offense at those who decided she was an unfunny comedienne and ended up claiming that nasty cybernats had abused her on line unfortunately no-ne could find the nasty tweets and I’m sure her pals at the Beeb searched far and wide for infinitesimal evidence of nasty cybernat activity.

    She did indeed do an appalling quiz show – not all her fault as it was a crap idea for a show.

    And being very fair to her , she was a very enthusiastic contestant on the awful dancy show.

  315. Liz g says:

    Re Breeks..
    No one on here has any real idea of any agenda Breeks or anyone else does or doesn’t have.
    Up to and including myself..
    But I can say this..
    Breeks didn’t put his theory forward as a criticism of the SNP or Nicola to start with,that’s a very recent thing.
    So it could be argued that the criticism is not only genuine on his part,but that it is born of a growing frustration sincerely held.

    What I can say is that Breeks has held for years now that the way forward is to focus on Sovereignty.
    He focused in on this,because,it seems to me,he can see it so clearly he struggles to understand why others cannot!
    His arguments are IMO valid and well thought out.
    But as I have said to him directly in the past ” that’s not the road we are currently on “.

    He,as far as I can see, is just being tenacious in explaining the concept.
    While I could be wrong,of course I could, I’ve never read anything from him yet that says to me he’s trolling…
    And in this instance even if he is….he is laying out some very well suppressed knowledge around Scottish Sovereignty.

    Which is indeed written about extensively in academia…Neil Mac Cormick,Bogdanor being only two… While I can’t do links…
    I can tell ye in this instance Google is your friend…

    And then I’d say debate with the guy,explore the options,or ignore him… But don’t turn on him as he contributes well to the site…
    Otherwise I’ll insist on regularly updating everyone about my recently acquired lavvy pan…I shit ye not 🙂

  316. Cubby says:

    Robert Peffers@9.26pm

    “Troll Hunters” – the new Britnat phrase.

    Yep I noticed this and thought it was a concerted attack. I don’t go out my way to find phoney independence supporters on Wings but the words they post just jump out and I do not care for such people one little bit. They can call me a troll hunter or anything else they want. Been called a lot worse by Britnats for a long time and it won’t stop me calling out their postings for what they are when I want to. At least people like HYFUD were honest about who they are even if not honest about what they post.

    Robert Peffers@6.27pm

    On a more positive note I never fail to be impressed by your patience and resilience in posting the same basic info for people even though it has been posted on so many many occasions before on Wings.

  317. Liz g says:

    Nana 9.45
    Yes Nana thank you, that’s the one…
    It was really good,wasn’t it?

  318. Tackety Beets says:

    Sarah, sorry to hear that, dont give up.

    Mind you there are all sorts out there after carrots.
    My son had regular visits from a fox in middle o the night eating his.

  319. Hamish100 says:

    Davidson and Calman are never seen in the same room together although both are britnats. Weird

  320. cynicalHighlander says:

    Tinto Chiel says:
    15 February, 2019 at 10:21 pm

    I first voted SNP in 1974 and in every election since

    Ditto as that was the first time that the SNP were on the ballot paper here.

    I spoilt my ballot paper after the exspenses scandal but solid SNP since.

  321. Is there no Scottish families living in Ullapool anymore??

  322. Famous15 says:

    Visit the Royal Botanic Garden in Edinburgh and you will see a demonstration of growing carrots free from root fly damage. It is simply a raised bed. The height is over 60 cms and since the female fly does not fly at that height there are no eggs laid. A fine net at that height would also protect.

    Moving on I observe the madness of the UK Government and find the parallel with the madness of George III and the resultant independence of the USA quite spooky. US independence was until recently mostly a good thing.

  323. yesindyref2 says:

    I remember in 1974, with the SNP having 11 seats up from 1 in the previous GE (well, the proper one before that), working out that if the vote increased at that rate they’d have 33 seats in 1979. Probably why a Devo Ref was held and then the 40% fiddle put in.

    1979 Devo Ref was 51.6% YES but didn’t hit the 40% of dead people and non-existent people required.

    We had to wait 18 years till the next Devo Ref.

    Can you feel the anger I still have after all these years?

  324. Contrary says:

    CameronB Brodie,

    Cool eh? Your posts are read and appreciated 😉 (when I spot them, that is)

    (Feel free to debate the relative merits, or add to, John’s interpretation of course)

  325. cynicalHighlander says:


    I remeber those days and the Labour party claim that they are the party of Devolution,sic.

  326. Sarah says:

    @Tackety Beets, Famous 15 and other carrot fanciers: carrot rearing – who’d have thought what a “fruitful” conversation would arise! Fingers crossed mine do better this year – may try sowing between the onions tho’ my onions, red and white, are my most successful veg and I don’t want to upset them.

    @Mike Robertson: I must have missed whatever prompted your comment. The answer is, yes there’s plenty Scottish families in Ullapool and Lochbroom plus a goodly number of appreciative folk who originated elsewhere. And our vote in 2014 was 59% Yes so we’re doing something right!

  327. Tinto Chiel says:

    “Can you feel the anger I still have after all these years?”

    Easily, yesindyref2. I was actually swithering between voting SNP or Labour (well, I was an unkempt student in those days) as I approached the polling station. Fortunately, the wee SNP guy at the gate said simply, “Vote for your country, son.”

    Hit the spot, that one.

  328. CameronB Brodie says:

    Cheers, though I’m not sure if I’m up to that. I’m very rusty and out of touch. I’m also not online when in Edinburgh so can’t claim to being up to speed with your work. That will change.

    I’ll still keep banging away here, for the time-being, and your most welcome to use anything you think helpful.

  329. CameronB Brodie says:

    Most of my ‘creative’ stuff is done in Off Topic. I’m just getting into a bit of Citizenship Theory and Cultural Theory over there, in case you’re interested. 😉

  330. yesindyref2 says:

    Just read your comment, basically because CBB made me look, very good.

    @Tinto Chiel
    Changed days. Or are they!

  331. Dr Jim says:

    Beep Beep Beep News just in:

    Sky press preview says Trump has agreed in principle to a trade deal with the UK which will include American whisky to be sold in the UK as a brand of …..Scotch!

    Plus, oh yes we’re not done yet, a new reworked version of TTIP, Yes remember that, the thing the whole of Europe rejected

  332. Cubby says:

    Rees – mogg says that the death rate in Boer war concentration camps was the same as in Glasgow at the time. Better together what a joke. Some union dividend for Glasgow at that point in time then – same standard of living as per a concentration camp.

  333. Colin Alexander says:


    “Perhaps even more significantly, the recognition of the supreme authority of the Scottish electorate in matters of independence provides a means through which unilateral changes to the terms of the Union can be met by a claim to secession on the part of Scotland”.

  334. Dr Jim says:

    How long will it take for folk to wake up to the very nice and softly spoken Mr Jacob Rees Mogg and his chums

    They are the worst of mankind and we’ve seen them before

  335. Clootie says:

    I wonder when Colin will realise nobody reads his posts?

  336. yesindyref2 says:

    @Colin Alexander
    Yes Colin, that’s a very good find and everyone should read it.

  337. Contrary says:

    CameronB, ,, ‘creative’ – sounds interesting! I haven’t ventured into off-topic but will try to take a look, I’m fairly sporadic about reading comments on Wings too, so it’s hit or miss what I see or read. Citizenship theory sounds good though. You don’t have to be up-to-speed with anything, it’s all just opinion, I just try and learn enough of a bit of everything to give a broad understanding for any aspect that will be of use in debating independence. Learning how economies work (or should) has been the toughest, but it really does clarify a whole host of nonsense we are fed by media and politicians, ‘austerity’ being the biggest con of all, and the most harmful economically speaking – notice how the UK just keeps getting deeper into debt? We’ll never be able to keep feeding that beast. (maybe time to learn how harmful it is culturally too).

    I always try to reference anyone that I take information from, but it can be easy to get lost when scouring the Internet. A good variety of other viewpoints is they way to go, and never to settle single-mindedly on one.

  338. Sorcha S. says:

    Thank you to everyone posting links on the constitutional position, especially with the emphasis on Brexit – some excellent material for answering questions.

  339. yesindyref2 says:

    In this particular case, Colin has unearthed two very good papers, one from a guy at UCL and another via LSE which has a lot of international contibutors, both good sources and quite impartial mostly during Indy Ref 1.

    “Ronan McCrea is a Senior Lecturer in Law at University College London”

    “Sean Swan is a Lecturer in the Department of Political Science at Gonzaga University”

    I’d already read the second and largely disagreed with it, but the first which largely disagrees with it also is a good find.

  340. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’m approaching this from the perspective of a social scientist, so there’s an ethical approach to consider. I already bias anyone reading the material I post with most of my intros, which tend to be a bit leading. I’m cautious of limitations.

  341. Contrary says:


    Thank you, I also added this comment later

    ’15 February, 2019 at 7:30 pm
    Sorry, I should have said in this comment that it is just a small part of a draft overall strategy to get some mass conversions to independence, it isn’t relevant to chat amongst yourselves, it’s if you are going out or venturing forth to influence people, and the list was to indicate when there is little point in trying, I should have made that clear before’

    ,, a bit worried the original comment may have aggravated some people. I had just extracted from elsewhere and so it was out of context!

  342. yesindyref2 says:

    It’s grand, I read that second comment of yours before I commented. Both are good.

    Influencing people is an interesting one. The best way is to get close to them, and from that point of view, if you can emphasise with their criticisms I think, so much the better. If they can see we have our criticisms but are still firm in our belief in Independence, it can make it easier for them to weigh up the good, the bad, and the ugly!

  343. CameronB Brodie says:

    Sorry, I’m cautious of my limitations.

  344. yesindyref2 says:

    empathise, not emphasise!

  345. CameronB Brodie says:

    re. influencing people. Here’s some Cultural Theory.


    Influence Theories

    How Culture Influences Health

  346. Confused says:

    much ta, wingers-peeps re : info susan calman – I am better informed now. The depressing thing is – I could have GUESSED all you told me; predictable. Aye, the club is very small and you’re either in it or out.

    Her attitude annoyed me, delivered as if it was comedy – the undercurrent seemed to be – whit ur we like eh, wir aw dafties, runnin a country and all that … thats no fur the likes aye us

    I don’t like wasting time on eejits, but I did the obligatory wikipedia – turns out she was a glesga lawyer and did that exchange prog where they went to american prisons

    – she worked with prisoners on death row – thats a TOUGH crowd, but at least its a … (- bad joke, fill the blanks in yourself)

    -posh private school and indeed, a drinker from the furry cup
    -daddy is real high flier – chancellor of the yooni FFS – and chief medical officer scotland and england – “the report guy!”
    -gave up the law for comedy – maybe she had no clients left after her american sojourn
    – I wonder if she ever thought on stage “I am DYING out here … a bit like those north carolina bozos”
    – and she is also a hobbit

  347. yesindyref2 says:

    Thanks for that, I used it anyway, first comment in, couldn’t get my fingers moving fast enough. Phew!

    It’s so good it should be on billboards all over Scotland:

    In six weeks, they’re going to take away my European Citizenship. I’m bloo[ming] livid about that.

    Maybe with the word bloody, or just not in at all. “I’m livid about that”.

  348. cynicalHighlander says:

    only 12 people listening to ATM.

  349. Contrary says:

    Ha ha,,, CameronB and Indyref, now we are all worrying about being misunderstood!

    Good points, and all are helpful.

    CameronB, my background is in the hard sciences – biology and physics (and a small amount of psychology) – which is not much use to anyone. But it does make me very good at critical reading (that does not mean spotting typos! and you’ll be glad to hear I’ve given up being pedantic 😉 ) and okay at interpreting stats – I’m using that to get a better understanding of the world, however little my interest is in the subjects (financial stuff ugh) I need – social sciences I can at least take an interest in. I think you can be less cautious of your perceived limitations, it is all opinion after all and helping people to look at the same thing from a different perspective is very important.

  350. Contrary says:

    **yesindyref2, not just indyref, that was a typo…

  351. Colin Alexander says:

    Don’t forget: it’s all the Sovereignty of the Crown in Parliament crap that stopped Blair from being tried as a war criminal.

    Now, on that basis alone, can anyone say they agree with the idea of UK Parliamentary sovereignty?

    The UK Union prison walls are crumbling; it’s time to kick them down and assert the sovereignty of the people.

    As the song goes, all join in, led by Cactus:

    “The higher you build your barrier
    The taller I become
    The farther you take my rights away
    The faster I will run
    You can deny me
    You can decide to turn your face away
    No matter ’cause there’s,

    Something inside so strong
    I know that I can make it
    Though you’re doing me wrong so wrong
    You thought that my pride was gone, oh no
    There’s something inside so strong
    Something inside so strong…”

  352. yesindyref2 says:

    No worries, I knew who you meant.

    I can’t help feeling we’re really entering the endgame now, and it’s all happening at the zoo, I do believe it, I do believe it’s true.

  353. Contrary says:

    Yesindyref2, yes, it is feeling close – something will possibly happen soon – and it will most likely be messy – and maybe not the preferred option. Just need to be as prepared as possible, and as flexible as possible, and keep ducking and diving, roll with the punches, etc. Frustrating not knowing though.

    CameronB, thank you for those links! Excellent stuff, it will be useful for sure.

  354. Cubby says:

    Tinto Chiel@11.01pm

    “Vote for your country son”

    Yeh, it does hit the spot.

  355. CameronB Brodie says:

    More health related Theory.

    Conceptual considerations in studies of cultural influences on health behaviors

    Culture and Health Psychology: Insights from a Socio-Cultural Perspective

    Culture and Public Health

  356. Cubby says:

    Yesindyref2 10.45pm

    The same percentage figure in 1979 as per the UK exit referendum that is now called the will of the people. The will of the Scottish people disregarded in 1979. That is when the people of Scotland should have ditched the Labour Party not nearly 30 years later.

    Democracy and a decent constitution go hand in hand in my opinion.

    The UK makes up the rules as it goes along to suit Westminster.

  357. cynicalHighlander says:

    Down to 9 now nobody wants indy the current set up suits our purpose to a tee. gdnight.

  358. Thepnr says:


    You quoted Breeks from an earlier post at 2:28pm.

    “In six weeks, they’re going to take away my European Citizenship. I’m bloody livid about that.“

    Then asked the question yourself at 10:19pm.

    “If this moves people over to YES, would someone mind telling me what is wrong with that attitude?

    I’ll tell you what I see wrong with it, the full quote from Breeks at 2:28pm was this:

    “SNPbad? Not, really, but kinda… In six weeks, they’re going to take away my European Citizenship.

    Maybe he should be more careful in his choice of words else others get the wrong idea that he is blaming the SNP for taking away his EU citizenship because that’s exactly how I read it as it’s precisely what he said.

  359. yesindyref2 says:

    After Breeks’s “they’re”, the next part sentence is “But I’m also profoundly annoyed that I still don’t know whether my Scottish Governments priority” note the “my” in “my Scottish Government” – the same way most of us speak.

    Far be it for me to interpret Breeks’s meaning, same goes for you, but it seems to me that in that context “they’re” is very clearly the UK Government, as only they can take away Breeks’s European Citizenship.

  360. Thepnr says:


    It’s as clear as mud.

  361. Thepnr says:


    Can you be a bit more explicit as to who you believe will be responsible for taking “away my European Citizenship”

    Would help to clear up matters.

  362. Ghillie says:

    Just tuned in to Indylive Radio while I’m reading comments.

    Runrig 🙂

    Thanks for the reminder and link cynicalHighlander 12.22 am =)

  363. yesindyref2 says:

    Believe what you like. You’re looking for the bad in what Breeks says, not the good. And the reason I know this? Because you’ve done exactly the same to me, more than once.

    I forgive because it’s Independence that counts, but I don’t forget.

  364. Thepnr says:


    You’re wrong. I don’t look for “good or bad” in anyone’s posts because they are what they are.

    In this case Breeks has form in criticism of the SNP for all kinds of perceived slights and he’d be the first to admit it I’m sure.

    So here’s the rub why wouldn’t I think when he says now that he is not being critical of the SNP?:

    “SNP bad? Not, really, but kinda… In six weeks, they’re going to take away my European Citizenship.”

    I’m sure all will be made clear when Breeks reads this tomorrow. He is entitled to be critical as are you and Colin Alexander and everyone else that wants to be.

    I’d only ask why at this time would anyone choose to be, I’m not a great believer in doing the enemies job for them. The job of Independence supporters is to whip up support and not to demoralise the troops.

    On Wings there are plenty around that wish to demoralise the troops. Well forget that, if you have nothing positive to add then best say nothing. If you want to moan about the SNP or Nicola Sturgeon or Alex Salmond then there’s a place for you below the line on the Scotsman, the Herald and the Daily Mail articles.

    Here and especially now is NOT the place for that, there will be plenty time to be critical after we have Independence. Why some fail to see that beats me, but there you go, there are nowt so queer as folk.

  365. Colin Alexander says:

    Regarding the constitutional sovereignty debate.

    People power can delivered indyref1 via democratic mandate. What is democratic mandate? The people voted for it.

    It’s on the same basis people power can deliver indyref2.

    However,on that same basis:

    The same people power voted 62% Remain

    They also gave electoral mandates to the SNP ( and Greens), making a parliamentary majority, that Scotland’s voice should be respected over Brexit. That we should not be dragged out the EU against our will.

    Now in the 1950’s, in the McCormack case the judge in obiter commented about the alien idea to Scotland of UK Parliamentary sovereignty. It went no further, there were no case law. Also almost nobody was in a position to take court action to limit the power of UK Parliament over Scotland. The SNP was only Robert Peffers and few others and could not afford to take on the UK Govt in court.

    Also, as far as I know, in the 50’s there had NEVER been any referendums. What are referendums? The people deciding directly. People power.

    2014, even the Unionists say it: the people of Scotland decided. They exercised sovereignty.

    Now, in 2019, there is evidence to support a case in court that people power sovereignty trumps English Crown in Parliament sovereignty – in Scotland at least.

    The fact is: it’s NEVER been legally tested.

    The Claim of Right says the people do have the right to try or judge the monarch, cos the monarch is NOT sovereign, the people are.

    UK Parliamentary sovt. is based on the sovereignty of the (English) Crown in parliament- currently, the Queen.

    But, in Scotland, the Crown is NOT sovereign, the people are.

    But, despite this, UK Parliament is then regarded as sovereign over Scotland, when UK Parl sovt power is based on the sovt of the Queen, when she isn’t sovereign at all, the people of Scotland are.

    That simply does not make sense – in Scotland.

  366. yesindyref2 says:


  367. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’ll leave Breeks to defend himself but his posts don’t get my spydey-senses tingling. I don’t think he’s trying to demoralise the troops and I don’t think I’m guilty of looking for good in bad. I was only taking the piss out of Jamie-boy when I said that. A critical perspective is skeptical of accepted truths, by default. The trick is balancing this with Positive Psychology and stuff. 😉

  368. yesindyref2 says:

    The problem is there are far too many attacks on Independence supporters – by Independence supporters – because those Indy supporters don’t say exactly what the other Independence supporters think they should say. I’m not talking about obvious trolls, I’m talking about blatantly obvious Indy supporters, like Breeks for instance.

    Breeks is clearly really not wanting to leave the EU for Scotland to be dragged out of the EU in 6 weeks time. Well, plenty of people are like that. Me for one.

    And yet people are supposed to “defend” themselves against really stupid personal attacks. Well feck that for a game of silly toy soldiers.

    People don’t have the same view of how we achieve Independence. People don’t have the same view of what we do, and what we don’t do. NOBODY makes the rules, nobody. And people have different methods of trying to achieve the end goal – Independence.

    What plenty of people are NOT is exact clones of each other.

    Or, as Dolly might say:

    wait for it

    wait for it


    (look what happened to her)

  369. CameronB Brodie says:

    Mint sauce?

  370. yesindyref2 says:

    Mmm, and new potatoes and peas, and gravy. When the money starts coming in again …

  371. CameronB Brodie says:

    I coudn’t resist.

    Deconstructing Brexit: Eurosceptic Discourse and the Ideational Context of the United Kingdom’s Exit from the European Union

    Dr. Benjamin Hawkins (London School of Hygiene and tropical Medicine, UK).

    Paper presented at the ECPR General Conference, Hamburg, 23-25 August 2018

    **** This is a draft. Please to not cite or circulate without permission of the author ****

  372. Cactus says:

    Mornin’ Breeks wrote ~

    “To our farmers and fishers, how will you fare?
    Feeding your beasts when your market’s not there?
    Will you cull them, or starve them, or sell them for pence?
    Will you breed more for next year? Or sit on your fence?

    To our teachers and tutors who fill our kids’ heads,
    Will you still teach them language to know what’s been said?
    What calling remains to teach French I fear,
    When sniggering ridicule’s all they will hear?

    To our makers and cakers, and factory folk,
    Who’ll buy your product with all of us broke?
    Ship all abroad to sell “over there”?
    Help me along here, please point out where???

    To our builders and craftsmen who wanted a trade,
    On scaffolds with hard hats, all stamped with a grade.
    Don’t you worry for health that the standards will slide?
    Once Government Safety is not on your side?

    To our nurses and doctors, those helping the weak,
    How will you manage without drugs that you seek?
    Will you manage their pain as you watch people die?
    Then hurry your shift to go home for a cry?

    To our Pakis and Poles, hush my racist wee tongue,
    I mean you no harm, I’m so glad you’ve come.
    I want you to stay, and make this place hame,
    But how can I welcome you into this shame?

    To our Polis and Army, and those in the Line,
    You’re just “us” in uniform, and trust me, that’s fine.
    But what will you do when it’s “us” in a mob?
    Will you beat us or shoot us, and call it your job?

    To our casuals and bams, and those we call neds,
    All those footie supporters with flags on their heads,
    Your fantasy football is straight out the past.
    You’ll miss a real struggle if you don’t tune in fast.

    To our Lawyers and bookworms, where have you been?
    I’m not talking killers, thieves or obscene,
    While Scots Law’s in trouble, you sleep at your post.
    Missing in action when needed the most.

    And so we come down to the governing few,
    The Champions or eejits depending on view.
    Can you lead us to Freedom? I pray that you try.
    Be bold. This is Scotland. The bar isn’t high.”

    Enjoyed your Ode to Brexit, thx, lookin’ forward to Year 2069. 😉

    Cairnstoon could just be a round this corner…

  373. Breeks says:

    Sorry for the ambiguity.

    The “they” taking away my EU citizenship is of course the Westminster Government, and on the anger scale, that’s currently ranking about 12 or 13 out of ten. But yes, I’m also angry with Scotland’s government, which I perceive to be largely ineffectual in preventing the Brexit catastrophe from happening. Did I say angry? No, anger isn’t really the word. It doesn’t actually register on the anger scale, but it’s a good 6 or 7 out of 10 on the absolute frustration scale.

    If you look back over Westminster’s Brexit, and Brexit negotiations, and turn down the volume so you’re looking at events, not words, Scotland’s capacity to impact on Brexit is largely non existent. It’s only recently that the SNP narrative has changed from a soft Brexit access to the customs union to actually staying in the EU. A very welcome change of tac, but late in the day.

    The only material influence Scotland has secured regarding Brexit in my opinion has been the ECJ ruling that Article 50 could be revoked as the sovereign prerogative of the state that wants to change its mind. This had a material consequence whereby May couldn’t kill off the idea that Brexit had a kill switch.

    There was of course the Continuity Bill, and not withstanding the shameful and perfidious retrospective doctoring of the rules by the British Establishment, even if the action had been a success, it would only be success for a Soft Brexit contingency.

    All we’ve had for the last two and a half years is merely words, and yes diligent, sincere and honourable words that might be pleasing on the ear, but sadly for all of us, there just isn’t any weight to them. Westminster ignores us. Europe ignores us. Our influence barely registers at all. We have no Legal Personality. We have no interlocutor status. No criticism intended, just observation of fact.

    If I’m wrong in saying that, show me. We can’t even hold the media to account to curtail the onslaught of pernicious lies, distortions and malicious indoctrination. The BBC’s mouth runs as free and unchecked as it did in 2014, and all our protests have secured is a new channel to be run by the same Propagandists already at large. Pissing on us and calling it rain is the appropriate expression.

    I’m tired of being told it has to be like this. It doesn’t.

    Examine the Irish Backstop. It’s origins are in the Good Friday Agreement which removed the Irish Border as precondition of Peace. Brexit however will compel the Border to be reestablished and thereby contravene the binary black and white principle of an International Peace Treaty. The UK is trapped. It must either truncate it’s Brexit ambitions, or prepare itself for sanctions and withering condemnation as a treaty breaker and fire starter.

    But see it in dispassionate perspective. The Good Friday Agreement is the written Constitution of the Peace, and you cannot dismantle its interpretation just because it suits you. How is that essentially any different from Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty which is currently being dismantled by all sides simply because it suits them? Our Sovereignty is not merely an inconvenient truth to be negotiated, it’s the LAW of our Country!

    We could so easily ask one question of Westminster, and thereby create for ourselves a Scottish Backstop where Westminster is challenged to articulate how Brexit can overrule the sovereign will of Scotland which chose to Remain. How do you actually do that Theresa? How do you overrule another Nation’s Sovereignty? Like the Irish Backstop, the UK would be trapped. Obliged to concede that Scotland is sovereign or at least has a sovereign veto, or, Brexit regardless, and destroy the Union by colonial subjugation that invites sanctions and withering condemnation down upon a colonial aggressor and sovereignty usurper.

    We have every option, every empowerment, every instrument and mechanism to defend ourselves that Mary Lou MacDonald has. She simply sees it all more clearly. Here in Scotland, we shy away and convince ourselves these Constitutional rights are flawed, or forfeit, or both. We insist democracy will charge to the rescue, as if democracy is the only principle that matters.

    See this Constitutional conundrum we wrestle with, like Sisyphus condemned for a eternity to roll a boulder up a hill only to see it roll down again? Let’s give it to Theresa May.

    We’re sovereign Theresa, and we said no to Brexit, and that’s the bottom line you’re stuck with.

    Oh aye, and Michel Barnier? Guy Verhofstadt? We Scots said no to Brexit, and that’s the same bottom line that you’re stuck with too. Brexit isn’t an act of our leaving, it will register as our involuntary expulsion. Here’s our lawyers business card…

    If that’s the SNP’s Top Secret Plan Geeo, then that’s fine I’ll shut up. But when a plan depends upon the timely dissemination of pivotal knowledge Constitutional awareness, it seems reckless dangerous to heighten tensions by keeping schtum until the very end. We only have 6 weeks to change the whole damned scenario as it is. I am blind and too perplexed to figure out what we are waiting for.

  374. Nana says:

    After tonight’s excellent event in Penzance, we asked EU law specialist Professor Michael Dougan, about the frequent claim that remaining in the EU would mean getting involved in an “EU army”. He explained that this is yet another Brexiter scare story.

    Banned in 160 nations

  375. Nana says:

    Morning LizG, I enjoyed the video with Mike Russell and Elena, especially liked the look of the cake!

    Posting again for anyone who missed it
    video here

  376. Phronesis says:

    We should all applaud and share the sentiment of young people wanting to address climate change .They are well informed and understand the major health implications of it.They should also express that sentiment at the ballot box when they are able.
    We should also support the institutions that are ready to tackle climate change.

    ‘Climate change is projected to affect health through a myriad of different pathways. From the direct effect of heat and exposure to other extreme events, including floods and droughts, to effects on natural systems such as on vector-borne or water-borne diseases and undernutrition. Socially-mediated effects, such as migration and conflict are also estimated to have an impact…
    A new Lancet Planetary Health paper examines the risks posed by increasing heat exposure to the ability to work, as well as the exposure to very high levels of heat stress sustained over three days, sufficient to pose threats to survival of even young healthy people…
    The Paris Climate Agreement was a major political achievement but the commitments made by governments are currently insufficient to achieve the goal of keeping temperature increases to well below 2°C (and 1.5 °C if possible) above pre-industrial levels. They are likely to result in about 3°C warming of the planet by 2100 with further increases afterwards.   The original commitments to GHG emission cuts need to be roughly tripled for the 2°C goal and increased about fivefold to achieve the 1.5°C target.’

    ‘The targets were set by EU leaders in 2007 and enacted in legislation in 2009. They are also headline targets of the Europe 2020 strategy for smart, sustainable and inclusive growth.
    The EU is taking action in several areas to meet the targets’

    ‘The Climate Change (Scotland) Act 2009 places climate change duties on Scottish public bodies which are detailed in the guidance on public bodies’ climate change duties.
    Each year we submit our climate change duties report, detailing the climate change performance of our estate for that financial year, to the Scottish Sustainable Network. Find more information on our sustainable performance reports page’

  377. Cubby says:

    In the discussion whether or not criticism of the SNP/Scotgov/independence movement btl is helpful it is worth noting that I do not remember ever seeing above the line criticism from the site owner of Wings of the SNP/Scotgov/independence movement in any of his posts.

  378. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Nana at 9.07

    “especially liked the look of the cake!”……… and Elena. She’s a smashing lassie who’s developed a good Scotch accent very quickly and is a credit to a Scotland that has welcomed her (and her sense of humour)very warmly.

    And the cake in the Dunoon Burgh Hall is as good as it looks.

  379. K1 says:

    *packs bags….moves tae Dunoon*


  380. CameronB Brodie says:

    The choice is simple, do you support justice or are you a fascist. Do you support the rule of law or are you a fascist. Do you support Scotland’s constitution legitimacy of do you support English fascism.

  381. Tackety Beets says:

    Breeks @ 8.33 am

    Since the turn of the year the SNP MPs have been clearly saying as often as possible “Scotland or the Scottish Nation will NOT be taken out of the EU”

    I hate this 6 weeks sitting waiting for the “Statement/ Declaration” that will back the declared position of NOT being taken out of the EU

    I fully understand the SNP leadership are keeping their powder dry but like you the unknown is hellish. Hopeing all this “we will be Indy in 5 years ” etc is hopefully a red hearing to throw the establishment of the scent etc
    Like you I wish I knew for sure 100% they will deliver before March 29th but …….

    I have been doing my share on the streets etc & the response from many/most is very positive, but every now & then a Wullie Mitchell turns up. Grrrrr.

    We have to believe, hard as it is. Stay tuned its only another few weeks, allegedly.

  382. Nana says:

    @Dave 11.48am

    I’m on the way so best save me a slice 🙂

  383. Liz g says:

    Nana @ 9.07
    Afternoon Nana
    Thanks for reposting the link.
    It’s certainly well worth promoting as much as we can!
    It fairly did the heart good tae here Mike Russell sayin continually that Independence was the way.
    We haven’t had such a strong statement in this kind of broadcast since 2014, the whole tone of message felt totally different 🙂
    Hopefully this is the start…

  384. CameronB Brodie says:

    I can’t even get three lines correct. Sorry, Scotland’s constitutional legitimacy.

    Brexit is an English disease, the outcome of a prolonged right-wing, populist, propaganda campaign aimed at vilifying the EU. It worked, but that doesn’t mean the fascists seeking Brexit necessarily need to get their way. Does it?

  385. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    CameronB Brodie at 12 03

    That is the case that we have to me making right now.
    “So you will defy international law? So you will defy the UN Charter on the inalienable right of self determination of all peoples? You will behave like the fascist Spanish government? You were an original signatory on the UN Charter. You will stand in front of the world and deface it?”

  386. CameronB Brodie says:

    I forgot the link that was supposed to go with that.

    From Euroscepticism to outright populism: the evolution of British tabloids

  387. Petra says:

    @ Cubby says at 11:27 am …. ”In the discussion whether or not criticism of the SNP/Scotgov/independence movement btl is helpful it is worth noting that I do not remember ever seeing above the line criticism from the site owner of Wings of the SNP/Scotgov/independence movement in any of his posts.”

    Me neither Cubby and what if we took the lead from some on this site and we ALL decided to come on here and criticise Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP, on a daily basis, would that have any impact on us winning IndyRef2? Some seem to think not .. ”eyes rolling”.

  388. chicmac says:

    Those pork links were scary.

  389. Petra says:

    Thanks for the links Nana. Isn’t it just utterly gobsmacking or rather extremely scary that so many people are totally ignorant of the most basic of facts nearly 3 years on? And yet we are being told constantly that everyone was aware of the implications of Brexit prior to voting. The MSM has a lot to answer for in particular the BBC, imo.

    …”Recent surveys show that over 40% of the entire U.K. population think that No Deal Brexit means the status quo.

    Nearly 80% believe that as soon as this Withdrawal Act gets through Westminster that is the end of matters.

    They have no idea that there will be possibly 10 years of Trade talks before an agreement with the EU is reached.

    The non-political anoraks in the UK do not even realise this part of the negotiations with the EU is supposed to be the easy bit.”…


    Gavin Williamson seems to have scuppered the UK / Chinese trade deal talks and the situation in relation to UK / Japanese trade deals isn’t looking too good either. Liam Fox informed us all that the UK could replicate the 40 free trade agreements before we left the EU and yet with TWENTY, yes just TWENTY, normal Commons working days left until Brexit not one has been signed.

    …”On February 1st, the EU-Japan Economic Partnership Agreement (EPA) entered into force. Rightly described as a ‘mega-deal’, since it covers 27.8 per cent of the world economy and more than a third of global world trade, the event still received relatively little attention.”…

    ..”However, these deals may prove to be largely inconsequential; for Japan the real importance of the UK lies in its access to the EU market. Without free and open trade between the UK and the rest of the EU, Japanese companies will not be impressed by any UK-Japan trade deal.”


    But it’ll be alright there’s always the US of A. Just like Brexit very few people will have any idea of the repercussions of trading with them …. from their poisonous grub to the decimation of our NHS.

  390. Ron Maclean says:

    From “About us”

    ‘The site advocates Scottish independence, but is not affiliated or connected in any way to the SNP, and neither gives to or receives money from the party, nor indeed any other party. We have an inquiring mind, and welcome intelligent contributions from all sides of the political debate.

    Got something worthwhile to say about Scotland’s future? Try us.’

  391. Cubby says:

    Ron McLean@1.13pm

    Good post.

  392. Footsoldier says:

    I suggest one post per person per week as Wings is fast becoming a daily conversational forum for a couple of dozen people or so.

  393. Nana says:

    @LizG I’ve shared the link far and wide

    @chicmac Hope those links didn’t put you off your lunch!


    If everyone stopped commenting the forum would be dead and that would not be good for any of us. Got to keep Wings going 🙂

  394. Liz g says:

    Footsoilder @ 1.49
    Looking forward to reading your contribution next Saturday 🙂
    When you could mibbi speak to a word limit?

  395. Thepnr says:

    Criticism where it’s due. I absolutely agree with that sentiment, when it comes to the SNP though we all know that 95% of the criticism that they or it’s leaders receive is not due because it is usually about areas of governance they have no powers over.

    Personally I’m sick of reading about SNP bad and for Independence supporters to express such sentiments doesn’t make sense, at least to me. There’s a saying “hold your tongue” and when we are trying to win over others to support Independence then that makes sense to me.

    We’re nowhere near Independence yet and if we are to get there we will need the SNP. It really is that simple.

  396. CameronB Brodie says:

    Uncertainty leads to doubt, which is another killer as it also blocks action and only leads to frustration and stress.

    Tools for Dealing with Uncertainty, Ambiguity, and Paradox: Reflective Methods for Group Development

    Dialog and deliberation can become particularly challenging when the focal topic involves substantial complexity, uncertainty, ambiguity, or paradox, as is all too often the case. Complexity and uncertainty arise in part from the external situation, but also because human thinking and social processes, are so complex. Our focus is on methods designed to promote mutual understanding and open participants to more flexible understanding of multiple perspectives and interpretations that arise during dialog and deliberation. The traditional D&D goals of giving all parties a voice and finding common ground, while important, can result in a less than deep mutual understanding among participants. Our goal is to support D&D going deeper into learning, change, and transformational spaces.

    We will introduce several methods for helping groups grapple with such situations. These methods are particularly appropriate to contexts that allow rich dialog for small to medium sized groups with a commitment to working together.

  397. cirsium says:

    thanks for the links, Nana, especially the one on ractopamine.

  398. yesindyref2 says:

    Don’t you owe someone an apology?

    Do you have the integrity, decency, honesty and courage to offer one?

  399. Thepnr says:


    Why would I owe anyone an apology?

    If you’re talking of Breeks post I think you’ll find that he apologised “Sorry for the ambiguity.”

  400. yesindyref2 says:

    Ah, I see, the answer is no.

  401. Petra says:

    @ Thepnr says at 3:14 pm …. ”Personally I’m sick of reading about SNP bad and for Independence supporters to express such sentiments doesn’t make sense, at least to me. There’s a saying “hold your tongue” and when we are trying to win over others to support Independence then that makes sense to me. We’re nowhere near Independence yet and if we are to get there we will need the SNP. It really is that simple.”

    There are very few people posting on here that come across as being as thick as mince. Most seem to be very or indeed highly intelligent and know full well what you say is correct Thepnr. ”You don’t bite the hand that feeds you.” It’s such a basic premise that small kids understand that. So we have to ask ourselves why would anyone go out of their way to do so? Why would anyone come onto a site to post SNP Baad comments constantly, and / or encourage others to do so, when they know that this is the most influential PRO-independence site in the UK. In other words hundreds of thousands of people are visiting this site to glean information and in many cases visit to help them to decide who to support.

    All I can say is that if I were a BritNat that’s exactly what I would be doing right now …. in a very subtle way. Target such a site to do my damndest to disparage the Union’s greatest threat …. Nicola Sturgeon said by key Unionists to be ”the most dangerous woman in Britain. The woman who holds the future of the Union in her hands.” And when they know this and we know this we should be doing our utmost to protect and support her … not running her into the ground.

  402. yesindyref2 says:

    @Petra / @Thepnr
    Let’s look at Archie and Fiona. They have a shop in Tighna-hara which I hope doesn’t actually exist. In this shop with a part-time Polish helper so they can get some time off, AND get to the market on Wednesday, they sell some goods for locals, they do coffee and snacks, and they also sell some local made goods and art. They’re getting by.

    In their shop they get locals all year, barely enough to cover the bills in winter and sometimes not enough, but in season English tourists (about 50%), American and Canadian tourists, but a lot of Dutch, French, German, Italian and Spanish tourists, as well as Japanese and others.

    They haven’t really paid any attention to Brexit “It’ll get sorted”, and have voted Labour all their lives. They can’t stand that Sturgeon wummin, and as for Salmond, it verged on hatred. They were NO NO NO NO NO NO NO, we can’t stand the essenpee.

    But they’re increasingly reading that Brexit will cause a slump in the economy, less visitors from the EU, and with the economy slump, maybe even less from England and elsewhere. Their part-time Polish worker won’t get a visa and there’s no locals to employ. Their business is potentially doomed. What do we do?

    Along comes Indy Ref 2 and they’re thinking about it this time, and ask some campaigners what’s going for Indy, but they can’t stand that Sturgeon wummin.

    So what do YOU do, do you spend your time defending Sturgeon and the SNP, or do you say “Yeah, they’re not perfect”, and make a case for Independence, adding that Indy Scotland will vote for whatever party it wants and their party will have a new manifesto for Independent Scotland, and maybe the next Government will be a Labour / LibDem coalition?

    I’ve met hundreds of Archies and Fionas, and quite frankly, who cares about the SNP, they can look after themselves.

    It’s Independence Independence Independence and sod the rest of it. And if the campigners they talk to don’t really like the SNP themselves, they will feel MUCH closer to their point of view “They don’t like the SNP either but support Independence very strongly. Mmmm, that’s interesting – and refreshing”.

    So what’s important to you? The SNP – or – Independence?

  403. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 6.36
    That’s not the point that Thepnr and Petra were making!
    The attacks on Nicola personally and the SNP in particular are all across the bulk of the media.
    They,it seems to me,are saying “why bring the criticism here,that stuff has already got a platform”.
    Which is true,but, it leaves posters on here no space to explore concerns without it being exploited,and exploited it will be.
    There is no easy answer so ,pardon the pun – we’ll all just have to Wing it – and bear in mind that the “real” Trolls won’t be so obvious,or posters who recently appear.
    In fact I reckon we will all be shocked when,in the fullness of time they are unmasked!
    The one thing..
    The main thing…
    The best thing…
    Is when Nicola/SNP/Indy are attacked here they are defended.
    And defended well.
    It’s about all we can do because,we are never going to stop it and it’s a waste of our time to try Trolls gonna Troll!
    We do ok on here,all things considered!

  404. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    You’re a moderate. Here’s two comments, attacks on someone – me – who’s supported Independence heart and soul for 10 times the length of time they have. Here’s one snidey snotty comment, and there have been others:

    If you want to moan about the SNP or Nicola Sturgeon or Alex Salmond then there’s a place for you below the line on the Scotsman, the Herald and the Daily Mail articles.

    and here’s another oblique snidey snotty attack, and there have been others:

    All I can say is that if I were a BritNat that’s exactly what I would be doing right now …. in a very subtle way.

    How dare they attack an Independence supporter of 47 years standing, one who has watched the SNP go from 1 seat to 7 to 11, estimated 33 seats in 1979 (almost half of 72) only to see it go back to 2, then 1 (Alex Salmond), then up to 6 then up to the giddy heights of 56.

    Meanwhile arguing (successfully) with an SNP branch to support Devolution in 1979 “it’s a step on the way to Indy”, and (unsuccessfully) with Labour supporting shop stewards who thought it was a bad Bill and trusted Thatcher – a Tory – to come up with a better one. Meanwhile getting snotty snidey comments from anti-Independence people over the years – then the vast majority – you get used to it – when I mentioned that I supported Independence, as I did given half a chance, including when working in Holland, Germany and Sweden, and taking to people weekends tracelling in France, Italy and other countries.

    And those two are the worst of the posters for attacking fellow Independence supporters – us who are blatantly obviously Indy supporters.

  405. Petra says:

    @ yesindyref2 at 6:36pm … ”So what do YOU do, do you spend your time defending Sturgeon and the SNP, or do you say “Yeah, they’re not perfect”, and make a case for Independence, adding that Indy Scotland will vote for whatever party it wants and their party will have a new manifesto for Independent Scotland, and maybe the next Government will be a Labour / LibDem coalition? I’ve met hundreds of Archies and Fionas, and quite frankly, who cares about the SNP, they can look after themselves. It’s Independence Independence Independence and sod the rest of it. And if the campigners they talk to don’t really like the SNP themselves, they will feel MUCH closer to their point of view “They don’t like the SNP either but support Independence very strongly. Mmmm, that’s interesting – and refreshing”. So what’s important to you? The SNP – or – Independence?”

    What a load of old tommyrot. Firstly I was commenting about people visiting this site. About attempts being made on this very site to undermine the SNP. What’s that got to do with the ”Archie” and ”Fiona’s” of this world who probably haven’t even heard of WoS never mind visit it? In fact it’s clear that a number of people on this site are constantly trying to discredit the SNP now without the prompting of an Archie or Fiona coming on to complain about them . Why would that be?

    I use my own technique with people in the real world, without having to denounce the SNP, which has proven to be extremely effective. How do I know? As ONE example, because I give them my card and many who have taken it have contacted me again looking for further information to pass on to a partner or whatever. A number in fact have gone on to visit me at home.

    Some of what you have to say in your post is a REAL eyeopener such as, ”Quite frankly, who cares about the SNP, they can look after themselves.”

    That comment just beggars belief. This is the party that’s working their butts off for you and I, that is if you really want Independence. Cubby recently listed the opposition that they are having to contend with. The least, VERY least, that we can do is support them, rather than badmouth them.

    ”And if the campaigners they talk to don’t really like the SNP themselves, they will feel MUCH closer to their point of view.”

    I wonder how many of the individuals that you’ve spoken to will actually go on to vote for Independence? Mmmm?

    ”What’s important to me. Independence or the SNP?”

    In case you haven’t noticed we can’t get the former without the latter. They are joined at the hip at this moment in time. But you can’t see it?

  406. Petra says:

    @ yesindyref2 says at 7:31 pm … ”And here’s another oblique snidey snotty attack, and there have been others: “All I can say is that if I were a BritNat that’s exactly what I would be doing right now …. in a very subtle way.”

    I made that particular comment and I actually wasn’t referring to you. I wonder why you thought it was directed at you?

  407. Cubby says:

    Sorry yesindyref2 but Petra’s post@8.17pm must have hurt. As you would say ouch!

  408. yesindyref2 says:

    There you go, instead of reading and thinking and wondering if there IS room for different views and methods to yours in a grassroots numbering well over 100,000 from all political parties and none, all with the aim of Independence, representing close now to 1.8 million people with the current intention of voting YES, voting for all political parties and none, you continue splattering your snidey snotty comments all over the place

    Get a tissue!

  409. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’m with yesindyref2 on this, there’s a difference between constructive and malicious criticism. I’m pretty certain support for independence is well over 50%, and reaching it’s maximum potential before actually being achieved. It’s tribalism that has held this example of emotional reasoning in check. Folk aren’t rational, though education can help reduce the reliance in gut instinct, when making important, life changing, decisions. That’s why the BBC in Scotland tries to fill your head with mince and scare the shit out of you. So that bigoted tropes gain more political weight than science and reason.

    The BBC in not a liberal institution!

  410. yesindyref2 says:

    In your dreams. Or your jeans. One of the biggest potential sources of new YES voters is NO voters who are part of the 62% who voted Remain in the EU Ref, who may have been saying “We voted for the UK to stay in the EU, not Scotland”, but are now looking at the shambles of Westminster both Tory and Labour over Brexit, looking at the total disrespect and disregard of Scotland and the SNP representatives at Westminster, looking at what’s already happening with companies movng out of the UK with job losses, looking at the very poor growth figure of the UK, looking at an increasing disappearance of EU citizens filling vital jobs in the UK – and Scotland, and wondering what can be done about it?

    And for them, the chances are that of all the posters on Wings if they bother reading btl, Breeks is the one poster who speaks for most for them.

    And yet Breeks is being criticised – constantly “has form” even, for criticising the SNP.

    Well, who do you think those previous NO voters are most likely to be persuaded by – Breeks or those who knee-jerk defend every single thing the SNP do, even if it’s a policy on how to correctly fold a piece of A4 paper?

    I know which I think is likely to be more succecssful to attract those 100,000 or 200,000 voters to switch from NO to YES, and it ain’t the knee-jerk SNP defenders, because that 1 or 2 hundred thousand new YES voters are, almost by definition, Labour, LibDem or even Tory voters.

    And all you have to do is actually read the columns of the MSM in Scotland, to see that many of them are having their doubts as well. Including those who hate the SNP.

  411. yesindyref2 says:

    @CBB “I’m pretty certain support for independence is well over 50%

    Given Brexit actually happens and is a no-deal or even bad deal one, I totally agree – once Indy Ref 2 is on the table rather than being a theoretical one in Andrew Wilson’s 50 years time.

    Anyways, that’s me for this thread, finito presto agitato!

  412. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh, just one last thing.

    If Brexit does happen on 29th March, there’s going to be some very surprising high profile movers to YES, and I can already guess some of them.

    Welcome to YES, we’re all inclusive (well, most of us are).

  413. Petra says:

    @ yesindyref2 says at 8:43 pm …. ”Petra – There you go, instead of reading and thinking and wondering if there IS room for different views and methods to yours in a grassroots numbering well over 100,000 from all political parties and none, all with the aim of Independence, representing close now to 1.8 million people with the current intention of voting YES, voting for all political parties and none, you continue splattering your snidey snotty comments all over the place. Get a tissue!”

    Don’t be so presumptuous! Of course I know and accept that there is room for different views and methods to mine. And by the way you have absolutely NO idea of the differing methods that I actually use in an attempt to convert people, in particular with a background in psychology. Do you? I’m off to a party with people of all political parties and none. Time for you to calm down and get a life, never mind a tissue, as you’re beginning to protest too much.

  414. Cubby says:


    Don’t think I have ever criticised Breeks.

    I’m pretty sure I have criticised posters who I think are phoney Independence supporters like Mr Alexander.

    Time will tell if the SNP are on the case or not I just do not personally indulge any concerns I have on Wings not now or in the past that is my decision. Neither do I go around defending everything they do. I am not a member of the SNP.

    You make good points about no voters looking around re problems but telling them it is the SNPs fault instead of it being Westminster’s fault doesn’t cut it for me.

  415. Sorcha S. says:

    The criticism of the SNP here is very mild compared to what I’ve seen elsewhere – why are some so angry about it here? This place used to be open to disagreement, now there are angry posters dominating BTL, telling others off for daring to speak out.

    Why has it become such an SNP fortress, it never used to be?
    And before anyone comes piling in asking ‘who are you?’, I have been here supporting this site at least as long as most of you causing the stooshies.

    YesindyRef2 is a decent poster who has contributed a lot to this site and beyond.

    There is a worrying paranoia here about the motives of others. What are you so afraid of? That the Unionists will see disagreement – so what? People disagree and then come together when it counts. Better getting it all out now than in the campaign proper. What is more worrying is that the hardliners here drive people away from the site altogether.

    I have never seen one single person come here and change from Yes to No, but as Yesindyref2 says there will be many coming from No and what will they see here – intolerance and snidy comments about people’s Indy credentials and commitment if they don’t toe the line of the self appointed guardians who are more like angry bouncers?

  416. Thepnr says:

    @Sorcha S.

    Where is this anger btl you speak of? I seem to have missed it, care to provide some examples.

  417. Sorcha S. says:


    Haven’t you and your gang done enough tonight?
    Not biting.

  418. Thepnr says:

    @Sorcha S.

    Not good enough, give one example of the “anger” btl. By the way which gang is that you speak of? I’m sure those who don’t know they are members of a “gang” would love to know.

    Let’s see you provide some answers starting with the angry posts.

  419. yesindyref2 says:

    @Sorcha S
    Thanks, and agreed.

  420. Cubby says:

    Thepnr@9.55 pm

    Methinks you are wasting your time. Don’t you just love people who dip in Wings criticise people for criticising others but are happy to post criticisms themselves thereby doing exactly what they are criticising others for doing. Then they do a runner.

  421. Cubby says:


    I am not surprised at you agreeing the bit when Sorcha S praised your contribution. I am happy to do so as well. However, you must have been blinded by the praise to miss all the rest of the post.
    For example, on the one hand he complains that Wings was a place where people could disagree then he complains about people disagreeing.

  422. Liz g says:

    Thepnr @ 9.55
    There’s a Gang!!
    Can I be in it 🙂

  423. Thepnr says:


    The thing is I wasn’t criticising anyone just commenting on another’s post that I disagreed with.

    That turned into a disagreement between myself and yesindyref2 over the interpretation of a statement in a post by Breeks:

    “SNP bad? Not, really, but kinda… In six weeks, they’re going to take away my European Citizenship.”

    I thought naw they’re no, nothing to do with the SNP.

    Turns out he didn’t mean the SNP at all but Westminster and he apologised for the ambiguity.

    As for the anger, intolerance and snidey comments claimed by Sorcha S. that supposedly infest this thread then I have failed to see them, and so far he/she has failed to provide even a single example of such.

    I’m sticking with my opinion and that is if you feel it necessary to criticise the SNP or Nicola Sturgeon then now is not the best time to do it and Wings is not the best place either.

    We have a referendum to win and slagging off the party of Independence and it’s leader won’t help in the slightest. I would have thought that much would be obvious. Others might think differently.

  424. Liz g says:

    Cubby @ 10.56
    I think Sorcha means Claire..
    Jist Sayin 🙂

  425. Cubby says:

    Liz g @11.08pm

    Thanks for the tip off.

  426. CameronB Brodie says:

    Can folk not have a disagreement in opinion without it turning in to a witch-hunt? Well, that’s the thing about debate over matters concerning identity and representation, they often become paranoid. Especially when conducted by a community held under colonial domination. This saps energy better directed towards the oppressor. That’s me with my critical, post-colonial, feminist hat on, deal with it.

    The reflexive habitus: Critical realist and Bourdieusian social action

    Julian Go’s Post-Positivist, Postcolonial Realism

    Introducing Postcolonialism in International Relations Theory

  427. Thepnr says:


    Be careful what you say, some might think you’re part of a gang.

  428. Cubby says:


    Yesindyref2 seems to me a bit grumpy at the moment.

    Surely there is plenty of material at present to slag off Westminster so why do people feel the need to slag off the SNP. They will never be perfect and they will never meet everyone’s expectations but what is to be gained by trashing the only vehicle for independence there is.

    As you say others think differently and that is their right.

  429. Cubby says:

    CameronB Brodie@11.15pm

    There is certainly a real witch hunt going on in Spain at present.

  430. Cubby says:


    Part of a gang LOL

    I used to be a lurker perhaps more people should post their opinions and accept other people ‘s comments.

    On the other hand I am sure there are some on Wings who wish I would go back to lurkingLOL

  431. Liz g says:

    Cameron B Brodie @ 11.15
    I think it’s the waiting for the Campaign to officially start,that’s getting on our last nerves.
    I’m pretty sure it will all swing together and soon.. 🙂

  432. CameronB Brodie says:

    Liz g
    I’m sure it will as well Liz. I’ve never been the most patient individual but some things are worth waiting for, though that doesn’t make waiting any easier.

  433. CameronB Brodie says:

    There are lots of cultural similarities between Britain and Spain.

Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.

↑ Top