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Wings Over Scotland

Counting With The Scottish Media #2

Posted on February 13, 2019 by

In today’s Daily Record:

Half, you say?

What the YouGov poll actually predicted was Labour losing FIVE of their current SEVEN seats to the SNP, holding onto only Edinburgh South and East Lothian.

And, y’know, call us sticklers but we’re pretty sure five is quite a bit more than half of seven. (It’s actually 71%, to save you checking.)

Alert readers may recall that the Scottish media has previously denoted figures as low as 38% to represent “almost half”, so the definition of “half” in the Scottish press now ranges from 38% to 71%, which is a wide spread of 33 percentage points (or if you’re a Scottish political hack, roughly seven-eighths).

Still, just this once we’ll forgive the Record, on the grounds of this excellent zinger right at the end of their article:

But all the same: always check the sums yourselves, folks.

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  1. 13 02 19 13:56

    Counting With The Scottish Media #2 | speymouth

385 to “Counting With The Scottish Media #2”

  1. handclapping says:

    Amazing that YouGov dont have Thomson losing in Aberdeen even though his Tory nickname is SNP Gain?

  2. geeo says:

    The article says labour will lose 5 seats to the SNP, so does that mean we will be losing a seat to the lib dems or tories ?

    A 5 seat gain from kabour would give us 40 seats but the forecaster is for 39 SNP seats.

  3. Tom kelly says:

    They also said, “And the Scottish results could play a pivotal role in giving the Tories a working majority at Westminster.”

    More Daily Record lies. Seats moving from Labour to SNP do not increase Tory majority.

  4. geeo says:

    *labour, not kabour…ffs. Apologies.

  5. Cactus says:

    Afternoon Rev ~

    “What the YouGov poll actually predicted was Labour losing FIVE of their current SEVEN seats to the SNP, holding onto only Edinburgh South and East Lothian.”

    Then that’s where Indy’19 campaigning should be concentrated on.

    Occupy them areas with billboards etc and us.

  6. Fran says:

    Ate they showing the Tories increasing their seats?

  7. Street Andrew says:

    geeo says:

    “*labour, not kabour…ffs. Apologies.”

    kabour sounds like caber; freudian slip ? I guess you were thinking tossers. πŸ™‚

  8. geeo says:

    @street Andrew.

    Nah, just an accidental hit of next over button on phone keypad.

  9. Dorothy Devine says:

    Street Andrew , on the ball there sir!

  10. Luigi says:

    What puzzles me is that so many people in Scotland still intend to vote blue tory. After all that’s happened during the past two years. Simply defies logic. Surely shum mistake! What is going on here?

    Utterly baffled. πŸ™

  11. Ian McCubbin says:

    With current downward spiral of UK and Wesmonster and rise of YES and SNP activism it is time for call for independce

  12. Arbroath1320 says:


    Looks like wee Jackie Baillie has handed over the BBC calculator to the Daily Record (on loan) here. πŸ˜€

    handclapping says:
    13 February, 2019 at 1:05 pm
    Amazing that YouGov dont have Thomson losing in Aberdeen even though his Tory nickname is SNP Gain?

    Surely his nickname is now “drunk as a skunk SNP Gain” HC? πŸ˜‰

  13. Shug says:

    Head the bbc this morning banging on about a carparking place tax being bad
    That was the default the snp tax is bad
    Had to switch it off

  14. galamcennalath says:

    BritNats have their own arithmetical, mathematical, logical, and statistical systems to give them apparent outcomes with suit their agenda. No aspect of reality is beyond twisting for them.

    The estimated result appears to be showing Pete Wishart’s seat going to the Tories!

    To be honest, I expect the SNP to take back Tory seats, not lose more to them!

    The likes of Luke Graham can’t be secure.

    If there is a snap GE, the YES movement needs to mobilise and give a 2015 type result, not a 2017 one!

  15. Clootie says:

    Same old, same old!

    Unionist MSM in Scotland trying to sell the line that only votes for Labour branch office can give victory to Corbyn. At the same time the English editions are attacking Labour and Corbyn and suggesting that the SNP tail will wag the Labour dog.

    The reality is that the SNP and Labour total combined seats will remain unchanged. However the SNP MPs will actually be standing up for the people of Scotland.

    I have to be honest that I never dreamt of the massive switch from Labour to the SNP in such a short time. I also never imagined so many Labour voters tactical voting for the Tories as at the last GE.

    I only hope the remaining Labour voters realise that their loyalty to Labour is misplaced and that the anger generated towards the SNP is not on political ideology but due to their leaders being denied a long stint at the feeding trough.

    The three shades of Tory in Scotland are holding us back. They all work together to protect the Union first not YOU.
    Turns each by Red and Blue Tories will never benefit Scotland.

    If only we had a truly Scottish Labour Party who actually cared about the people of Scotland.

  16. galamcennalath says:

    Cactus says:

    Occupy them areas with billboards etc and us.

    Indeed. I’m most impressed with the billboard campaign being run by the Led By Donkeys group.

    They specialise on putting tweets from Brexiteers highlighting their U-Turns on billboards.

    We have some crackers to deploy from Davidson, Mundell, Dugdale, etc where they say things on which they have U-turned. Obviously we need to focus on Scotland and Indy and leave the Brexit specific fight to others. I’d certainly be up for crowdfunding some billboards highlighting the perfidy and deceit of BritNat politicians.

  17. Clootie says:

    It is quite simple – never ever trust data from the BBC or the so called “Scottish media”.

  18. Dr Jim says:

    It’s coming right down to it now Tory British Nationalsts V Scotland’s Independence because the Labour Scottish branch have shot themselves in both feet with bad decisions for Scotland and servile Unionism to England

    What will England do with this situation

    Attempt to appease us AGAIN?! or attempt to subjugate us AGAIN?! Or…agree to our referendum without argument or delay and then interfere and cheat and lie their way to another victory

    I believe it’ll be the third thing and I also believe this time Scotland will defeat them

    Come at us Westminster, see what happens!

  19. Artyhetty says:

    The makey uppy of numbers is very fashionable these days. I guess in the days of no internet and therefore a free rein to tell the biggest porkies day in day out, people had no choice then.

    People have a choice now, not to believe the bulls**t that comes out of the daily right wing rags via Labour. Remember these rags were pretendy lefty for the workers at one time, drumming up support for the massive following that UK Labour and their Scottish branch enjoyed so much.

    Re; Tom Kelly@1.10pm

    That is exactly their purpose Tom, to keep the myth going, ‘aye but yous let the Tories in!’. My have the Labour fools dined out on that for a long time.

    It’s to drum up anti Scottish feeling in England, they are fooled into believing that it’s Scotland ‘letting the Tories in’. Ha! Maybe we could play that up then they will definitely want Scotland to be set adrift, win win!

  20. Proud Cybernat says:

    What does Dianne Abbott think about these polls?

    Or, for that matter, Fiona Bruce?

  21. Geordie says:

    Stu, as suggested above, how about a WoS billboard campaign, especially in key or marginal seats? I’m utterly sick of getting a constant kicking from the BBC and co, would be great to kick back. I would definitely contribute to a crowdfund.

  22. HandandShrimp says:

    I saw that article, the tone struck me that The Record is a bit fed up with SLab. No doubt they still hate the SNP but they are a ship adrift at the moment as indeed Labour increasingly seem to be in the UK.

    Never has an opposition failed to take advantage of such a useless, unpleasant government so spectacularly as Corbyn’s crew. They should bev10 points clear, not 5 behind.

  23. Alan Johnston says:

    The You Gov poll shows SNP vote at 48%, Con at 25, Lab 16 with LD 9.
    The poll did not have enough respondents to predict constituencies so the guess for constituencies is all those they reckon have a 50% or more chance of changing from the general trend.
    If the Scottish pattern is different (which is the case) the predictions could be a bit out to say the least.

  24. HandandShrimp says:


    Did anyone read Daisley’s weird piece in the Spectator “Who does Sturgeon think she is?” Basically a “down with devolution the natives are getting ideas above their station”. Surprised the Spectator ran such an abject 1970s Unionist piece of drivel. Suppose it warmed the cockles of Donald Findlay’s heart though πŸ™‚

  25. I always try to avoid reading polls they are not always good for confidence building.

    Though I’m not convinced by this poll, I read, can’t remember where,it was suggested that the SNP, Libdems and Tories would each win four seats making the up total of 12 seats that Labour would lose.

  26. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    I don’t believe there will be another UKGE until after E-Day, so this is all somewhat moot. And since turnout is crucial, as we saw in 2017, if we have ended up trapped in a Brexited UK next time we go to the polls, I reckon 2017 will seem like a high water mark. People have to have a reason for voting, a feeling that putting their mark down can make a difference.

    Still, the upside is that Labour aren’t going to be our saviours, and it’s getting visible to everyone, including those who might be tempted to trust them just one more time, or the young ones who have never voted before. Maybe even the DR is getting the message.

  27. Ghillie says:

    Cactus @ 1.14 pm =)

    Good idea πŸ™‚

  28. Colin Alexander says:

    What did the SNP achieve with 56 MPs?


    As much as they achieved with 6.


    That’s the bitter truth.

  29. Clootie says:

    The resident idiot troll has crawled out to spew

  30. Abulhaq says:

    Remember the time when the SNP had all but 3 of the Westminster seats and 50% of the popular vote? Remember the dream ticket of an SNP gov in Edinburgh and a Tory gov in London? Remember how Brexit and Scotland’s forced exit from the EU was flagged as the last straw for the UK? Is independence under Sturgeon becoming a β€˜jam tomorrow, but not today’ hypothesis?
    When will the SNP leadership stop playing us for suckers?
    Diss me how you will guys but at the moment Scottish independence looks about as plausible as our winning the Six Nations and Nicola NOT landing a wee job with some international .org outfit based in NYC.

  31. Mark Fletcher says:

    What did the SNP achieve with 56 MPs?


    It made EVERYONE in politics sit up straight. It strengthened me and the whole YES movement.

    It made you miserable, I assume.

    Incalculable benefits.

  32. Undeadshaun says:

    What did the SNP achieve with 56 MPs?

    Gave me motivation!
    Became 3rd uk party, which gained a question at pmqs which gained more tv and media coverage.

    Even BBC r4 has the question on news feeds as does shortbread.

  33. Bob Mack says:

    Whether you have 6 MPS or 59 MPS means nothing when you have over another 500 determined Unionists intentionally trying to give you no ground whatsoever.

    What MPS do indicate however is that people are electing them and therefore reflect the mood and will of the nation. That, they cannot ignore indefinitely.

  34. Clootie says:

    I see Colin logged in to his other account pretty quickly πŸ™‚

  35. Colin Alexander says:

    It initially gave me a huge lift too. The Red Tories, NO Campaign’s Fifth Column out the game.

    The SNP were going to ensure the indyref campaign promises were kept – Devo-max.

    50% of the popular vote. A sovereign mandate to do so.

    So did they achieve devo-max?

    Well, did they?

    Did they achieve, “all countries must agree for Brexit to go ahead”, with their sovereign mandate with 50%?

    Well, did they?

    aye or no?

  36. Hamish100 says:

    CA calm down dear

  37. Effijy says:

    The Billboard companies previously rejected attempts
    To post facts that showed the BBC as corrupt propagandist.

    Now if SNP would take this up with their own fund raiser.
    Would these companies declare that they cannot allow
    Political awareness campaigns with irrefutable facts paid
    For by Scotland’s duly elected majority?

    We can really expose UK corruption by this means
    Or at least prove how freedom of speech is not permitted
    In Scotland.

  38. Proud Cybernat says:

    Concern trolls (you know who you are) – this one’s just for you:

  39. Liz g says:

    Mark Fletcher @ 3.32
    Well said Mark!
    What it also did was show that it was doable..
    Scotland can elect the SNP in every seat if she is minded to.
    And should the SNP put dissolving the Treaty of the Union in their manifesto,then it will be done.
    This demonstrated that subverting a referendum would be futile as Scotland can and will vote on it’s Treaty arrangements one way or another,any time we want to..

  40. and The Herald Britland leads with Ruth Davidson as the next FM.
    No wonder these rags are going bust.

  41. Chris Kilby says:


  42. orri says:

    Polls. The idea that they are a tool to manipulate might not be paranoid enough. If a regime is corrupt enough they can be used to guide perception of the result in order to disguise manipulation.

    Q.V. encouraging postal voting and not holding exit polls.

  43. Breeks says:

    You’re missing the point.

    What didn’t the SNP do with 56 MP’s? Or, let’s be kinder… What couldn’t the SNP do with 56 MP’s?

    Trying to observe objective neutrality, and without any hint of SNPbad, the indisputable fact is wall to wall SNP representation was demonstrably inadequate to securing Scottish Independence.

    It thus prompts a completely valid question… when 56 of 59 isn’t enough, then please elaborate, what is enough?Where does the tipping point occur? Where is the β€œin-zone”? How can you win anything when you have no criteria for victory?

    We are floundering with the abstract philosophy of democracy because the vast majority of us are Constitutionally illiterate and do not understand the vital essence of sovereignty. What is inexcusable however is the number amongst us who willfully misunderstand, because it take choice out of their hands.

    If only more of us had the same decisive clarity as the Irish, and especially Mary Lou MacDonald. She makes it look effortless, and has both Europe and the International community backing her to the hilt.

    Well heads up. Scotland’s Sovereignty is as potent in international law as the Good Friday Agreement. The difference between Scotland and Ireland is that we allow ourselves to be muddle headed and indoctrinated into contemptible submissiveness. The Irish can see their winning post.

  44. Referendum1707 says:

    Re billboard companies refusing to put up pro indy billboards, that doesn’t apply right across the spectrum. A while back the bbc misreporting Scotland billboards went ahead ok. Can’t remember the name of the company though.

    However some have tried to get something like that off the ground on here since but apart from the above mentioned campaign nothing ever seems to come of it. I think it’s complacency derived from the “and we haven’t even started campaigning yet” mentality.

    What is it now, something like 41 days till brexit? What’s the plan? Wait till it’s 41 minutes?

  45. Proud Cybernat says:

    “It thus prompts a completely valid question… when 56 of 59 isn’t enough, then please elaborate, what is enough?”

    I think we need a little reminder here, Breeks, that in the 2015 GE the SNP asked Scottish Labour voters to “Lend them their vote” in order to “Hold WM feet to the Fire” i.e. to deliver on Smith. Those weren’t natural SNP voters but Labour voters that loaned the SNP their vote. The SNP did not go into that GE asking Labour voters to lend their vote to then go on and demand independence – that would have totally disrespected the 2014 referendum result.

    Next GE though, imo, that is exactly what the SNP should do – ask all voters of whatever party in Scotland to lend SNP their vote in order to win a majority of MPs and also 50%+1 of the popular vote to then go to WM a commence negotiations on Scotland’s withdrawal from the Treaty of Union.

  46. Macart says:

    Heh! Meeja calculators. 😎

    The SNP are detested in Westminster by both Tory and Labour alike. Spoils their day apparently and pisses them off something rotten (shrugs).

    They’re there under Westminster’s own rules and must be given the same weight of recognition and acceptance as any other member. You’d think the usual two suspects, given their dominance of the chamber, would feel quite comfy. They’re not though and don’t they and the media like to get loud about that discomfort at every opportunity.

    Wonder why? πŸ˜‰

  47. Legerwood says:

    Jack collatin says:
    13 February, 2019 at 4:30 pm
    and The Herald Britland leads with Ruth Davidson as the next FM.
    No wonder these rags are going bust.””

    From this I take it that Ms Davidson is due back at work sometime soon so they are just reminding us who she isin case we have forgotten.

  48. Cubby says:


    “If only we had a truly Scottish Labour Party that actually cared about the people of Scotland”.
    I doubt there has ever been one and I doubt there ever will be one.

    At the 2017 GE I was astonished when a friend who had always voted labour and was second generation from Irish parents voted Tory for the first time to save the union. Truthless told him she would save the union. After the events in recent years re leaving the EU he does not have a lot to say for himself now. A tad confused I think.

  49. Dr Jim says:

    Mary Lou McDonald is indeed strong and positive for her case, but she has also something else, she carries the basis of the threat of violence which Nicola Sturgeon does not and would not because that would plunge Scotland into the same endless mire that Northern Ireland has suffered

    One other difference should be noted, when all is said and done Northern Ireland as far as *the British* are concerned is disposable because strategically and financially they unfortunately have nothing and are at this moment in time subsidised by Scotlands subsidy of the UK, whereas Scotland is not disposable because without Scotland England can’t afford to susidise Northern Ireland and Wales by themselves

    Scotland is the key to the entire British Isles with regards to location strategics assets and finances

    Without Scotland there is no United Kingdom, Scotland is at the moment a partner IN the United Kingdom, not a partner OF The United Kingdom

  50. Sarah says:

    Billboards are definitely a good idea, as Cactus and many others have said. Also Glasgow underground ads, as the Rev tried in 2014.

    Effijy says billboard companies won’t allow political posters. But surely anybody can become a billboard company? [I have often suggested this to the SNP.]

    I, like others, would donate to a fundraiser – I’d love to see Chris Cairns cartoons on hoardings all over Scotland. He did one in 2013 which is extremely apposite right now – John Bull sawing a branch off a tree labelled EU. JB and Hamish, who is looking very fed up, are the wrong side of the cut and JB is saying “See. I told you we’re Better Together”.

    We see political posters in election campaigns plus these Lead by Donkeys ones – so it is possible. And our own houses, gardens and cars can have posters of course.

  51. Cactus says:

    Fuck May and her Tories…

    That is all.

    Et Love.

  52. Sinky says:

    More Scotland In Union News. Gina Davidson who previously worked for Labour Party at Holyrood including writing speeches has been appointed deputy political editor for Scotsman.

  53. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Cubby @ 17:13,

    You have to scratch your head in puzzlement at the process by which people of relatively recent Irish origin like your friend could arrive at voting Tory “to save the Union”. And I don’t believe he was alone by any means.

    Partly it can be blamed, as Stu has maintained, by Kezia’s virtual endorsement of the Tories at the last UKGE, but that can’t be the whole story. The slow-mo self-destruction of NorthBritLab has certainly much to do with it; people desperately seeking to keep the old ball game in play and get back to “the good old days”, even if it means consorting with the auld enemy to do it. And it hasn’t served them any better that their Faustian bargain in Better Together and SiU. But a tipping point is surely coming, when folks realise that the old days are gone, and there’s no spoon long enough to sup with the Devil.

    I’m not at all convinced that future injunctions to vote Tory to keep the SNP at bay will work at all well, with or without Tank Commander, especially if the SNP get some fire in their belly and get their own support out.

    Personally though, all this poring over the entrails of another UKGE is a pointless distraction in anything except a helpful “sign of the times”. I don’t want to have to vote in another UKGE. Ever. If we have to do this, we’ll have waited too long.

  54. geeo says:

    galamcennalathΒ says:

    If there is a snap GE, the YES movement needs to mobilise and give a 2015 type result, not a 2017 one!

    What was wrong with the 2017 GE result ?

    SNP won more seats (11) than ALL OTHER parties COMBINED.

    SNP won 22 MORE seats than the tories.

    SNP won 28 MORE seats than labour.

    SNP won 31 MORE seats than the lib dems.

    SNP won 60% of ALL seats they contested.

    In contrast, the Tories won just 48.8% of ALL seats they contested.

    Pro rata, the SNP have a HUGELY larger mandate from the electorate than the WM Government do.

    It is purile to judge the 2017 GE result against THE most incredible GE election involving multi party democracy EVER KNOWN.

    WM elections are about winning most seats. Full stop.

    And in 2017 we won 60% of those seats. That is a landslide, and is certainly not depleted by judging it against 2015.

    For the SNP to win ANY majority of Scottish seats (30 or more) is an unbelievable achievement of huge magnitude.

    Before 2015, try answer this:

    Question: How many WM GE’s did it take for the SNP to win a total of 35 seats ?

    Answer: Including By Elections, it took from 1983 to 2010 General elections (inclusive) for the SNP to win 35 seats IN TOTAL.

    Question: How many WM GE seats have the SNP won since Winnie Ewing’s famous By – Election victory, up until and including the 2010 GE ?

    Answer : 57 seats (Including By-Election wins)

    How is that for perspective on the 2015 and 2017 results ?

    Now tell me the 2017 result was not that great.

  55. Cactus says:

    LOVE Scotland.

    FUCK Westminster.


  56. manandboy says:

    Very funny, very anti-British. Watch for a laugh.

  57. wull2 says:

    What I want to know, in this time of political correctness, is buying a black and white TV licence classed as a racial action.

    All people in Scotland should not buy one just in case.

  58. Maria F says:

    Colin Alexander says:
    13 February, 2019 at 3:52 pm

    “The SNP were going to ensure the indyref campaign promises were kept – Devo-max”

    Actually, Colin Alexander, it was the PM of the UK, the Deputy PM of the UK and the leader of HM Opposition who stood in front of us with all their pomp and ceremony and told us solemnly that the “vow will be delivered”.

    It was Gordon Brown, one of the most well known labour politicians and an ex PM of the UK who told us solemnly during purdah that Scotland would get Devo Max, as close to federalism as you can get with a neighbour country the size of England.

    It was the PM of the UK, David Cameron who told us that Scotland would become “the most devolved nation in the world”.

    It is not the SNP who has to ensure those promises are delivered. It is the PM of the UK, the Deputy PM of the UK, ex UK PMs and the leader of HM Opposition, in other words the English establishment, who should have ensured this was the case, if they valued their word, their dignity, their political ethics and their reputation. Doesn’t look they actually value themselves at all, don’t you agree?

    Not delivering those promises has told us all that the word of the UK PM, the word of UK ex-PMs, the word of the UK Deputy PM and the word of the UK Leader of HM Opposition is more worthless than a burnt car tyre. Not delivering what they promised makes them liars of the highest order, and that level of eye-watering dishonesty, Colin Alexander, is not something you can simply “pass on” to the SNP like a virus hoping the English establishment will look less ill and infected by comparison.

    What you are doing is trying to ping the blame for the dishonesty of the English establishment on the SNP and that Colin is dishonest and frankly futile. Attempting to clear the name, word and trustworth of the UK figures of “PM”, “ex-PM” “Deputy PM” and “Leader of HM opposition”is hopeless as it is now beyond repair. The day the most senior UK figures of “PM” “Deputy PM”, “ex-PM” and “Leader of HM Opposition” reneged on their promises, they rendered their word and those political figures worthless, powerless, untrustworthy, unreliable, weak and frankly, laughable.

    The English establishment has rendered its most senior political figures as powerless, untrustworthy and unreliable. All for the sake of retaining control of Scotland’s assets. Do you think it was worth it? For how long is this sustainable?

    I am very glad you have brought Devo Max into the discussion, actually. As you clearly acknowledge, that was indeed part of the Status Quo Scotland voted for in 2014. Not just devo max, mind. We actually voted, in agreement with the promises of the PM of the UK, to become the “most devolved nation in the world”, a “union of equals” and to “lead the UK, not leave the UK”.

    Where are we now?

    Well, we are not the most devolved nation in the world. Looking at the Faroe Islands’devolved powers tells us exactly what powers we own thanks to the 2014 vote that the English establishment is refusing to give us back and by doing so, reneging on the vote the people of Scotland cast in 2014 and reneging in what the people of Scotland actually voted for: Devo Max and to become the most devolved nation in the world.

    Nations in Spain have had devolved broadcasting for 3 decades. We voted to become the most devolved nation in the world, so broadcasting in Scotland belongs to us, not to Westminster. Where is it? Not devolving broadcasting to Scotland is simply the English establishment reneging on our 2014 vote and reneging on the status quo the people of Scotland actually voted for.

    We don’t have to look very far to realise that the English establishment and its 3 political arms in the form of Labour, Tories and LIbdems have reneged on the vote the people of Scotland cast in 2014. We just need to look within the UK itself. NI, the smallest nation of the UK, has more devolved powers than we do. Civil service for instance, is devolved in NI. As we are the most devolved nation in the world, control of the civil service belongs to us. So what is exactly Westminster waiting to devolve it to us?

    We could go one by one through every single nation in the entire world and make a list with all the powers they have devolved. That list is the list of powers Scotland must have if the English establishment, its 3 political arms and all the sycophants circling around, including those in the HoL and those with imperial titles, stop reneging on the vote and bring themselves to accept what the people of Scotland actually voted for in 2014.

    In conclusion, Westminster is in borrowed time. It is retaining a whole bunch of powers that actually belong in Scotland, in line with the PM of the UK promises of becoming the most devolved nation in the world and in line with our vote in 2014. Those are powers the people of Scotland expected to get and voted to get. Not devolving those powers equals to refusing to accept what the people of Scotland voted for in 2014 and reneging on the vote. So it is actually incredibly ironic that the same English establishment, its 3 political arms, its Propaganda mouthpieces and the sycophants circling around it like vultures waiting for a bauble or a seat in the Hol are the ones telling us that the SNP and the Yes supporters did not accept the vote. Hilarious, don’t you think? I do.

    The English establishment, its 3 political arms, its propaganda mouthpieces and its sycophants are reneging on our vote, that is the reality. They started to renege on the vote the day after the referendum with EVEL and they have done it day in day out ever since.

    I think it is not true what you say that the SNP did not achieve Devo Max for us. As you well know, it was never in the power of the SNP, with 8% representation in Westminster to DELIVER Devo Max. But the truth is that The Yes campaign, of which the SNP was part, actually ACHIEVED for us Devo Max, to become the most devolved nation in the world and to be a union of equals where Scotland leads the UK rather than leaves the UK. Achieving and Delivering are very different things, Colin Alexander.

    The SNP achieved Devo Max because those promises were part of the status quo we voted for in 2014 and the people of Scotland voted for that status quo. We expected to get that and you know very well that in politics, like in retail, it is not the expectations of the seller what marks how much the product is worth, but the expectations of the buyer. Value equals to expectations. Since 2014 Devo Max/being the most devolved nation in the world has become the expectation of the voter, the baseline of any future offer the English establishment will have to make to be given any value. Offering to the people of Scotland anything less than Devo Max/being the most devolved nation in the world will be a total and complete waste of their time and the best part of it all is that the English establishment knows this. They know that if they come to us with anything less than Devo Max we will laugh at their faces. So yeah, Colin, the SNP and YES indeed have achieved Devo Max.They have brought Devo Max from a fantasy dimension into a very real one. They have transformed Devo max from being an impossibility and an illusion into being what we should already have if the English establishment had kept its word.

    The problem Colin is that Devo Max is just the baseline, and while it may have been sufficient in 2014 to entice the people of Scotland to remain in the UK, it may not longer be enough in 2019. That is what dishonesty does, Colin, it transforms a good, valuable, perfectly reasonable, generous offer into worthless deceit. Offering Devo Max is not the problem for the English establishment. Their problem is that, after what they have done, we will never believe their offer is genuine.

    “Did they achieve, β€œall countries must agree for Brexit to go ahead”

    Well, take a look at the current situation, Colin Alexander. Take a look at the support for independence in Scotland. Take a look at the support for remaining in the EU in Scotland and NI. Take a look at the support for reunification in Ireland.
    What do you see? Do you see Scotland and NI taking happily the English brexit pill? Do you see them taking well the idea of their democratic will being overruled by England MPs? Or you see Scotland and NI kicking and screaming at the top of their lungs demanding their will to be respected?
    Do you see the interventions of the SNP in Westminster? Well I suggest you take a look: you will never see the PM freezing, shocked, uncomfortable and rambling with labour interventions in the way she does when she is trying to justify herself in front of Ian Blackford. He really is rattling her cage and she does not like it.

    If you take your fingers out of your ears you will be able to hear it, Colin. I heard it loud and clear.

  59. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    manandboy@ 5.52pm.

    Funny very funny. We should hire him as a speech writer for the Yes movement.

  60. Cactus says:

    To reiterate in a different kinda special way…

    FUCK ra Tories & Labour + LD.

    LOVE Scotland.


  61. Patrick Roden says:

    Re: Article in the Herald saying Ruth Davidson will be the next first minister is by Jackson Carlaw the Tories deputy leader! Not exactly a balanced article.

    Noticed that ‘zinger’ at the end of the Record article, and wondered if this is a reflection of Clegg being in the Kezia/Blairite camp and if it shows his contempt for Dick Leonard.

    The Labour Party seems to be bitterly divided between between a right-wing New Labour faction, and the left-wing Corbynite faction, so I suppose some of the journalists like Clegg will also fall into one of these camps.

    I’ve certainly noticed some very critical articles about Labour in the Record over the past year or so.

  62. yesindyref2 says:

    Actually I thought for some time that’s something the Independence campaign should use when the Ref’s on.

    We had the feeble 40 Labour MPs, who did nothing for Scotland, then we had the futile 56 SNP MPs who tried and tried but were able to achieve nothing for Scotland as they just got outvoed by Tories and Labour.

    Clearly Westminster doesn’t work for Scotland whatever political party supplies MPs from Scotland so vote YES for Independence.

    It would need the SNP to be self-effacing and support the idea.

  63. jezza says:


    You forgot to say, Fuck all the Little Englanders as well.

  64. Cactus says:

    Aweright jezza dude.

    Just Westminster, not England.

    Keep posting dude… πŸ™‚

  65. jezza says:

    The Proud Scot Buts have held us back long enough.

    Their minority standing is getting smaller by the day.

  66. jezza says:

    Little Englanders are the racist bastards who dream of Empire2.

    Where Engurland rooled the wurld.

  67. sandycraig says:

    Colin Alexander 3.22.
    The bitter truth as you say, is that people are more aware of what is happening in Westminster, because we have more representatives who are capable of making excellent speeches and taking part in committees which put government ministers under extreme pressure to come up with plausible answers, check out Joanna Cherry. Unlike all the labour and tory reps we had before who were only interested in doing their party masters wishes.

    You may think they achieved nothing but I think they brought to life a HOC with their concise comments to a government that didn’t give a shit, and still doesn’t about Scotland.

    Perhaps you should be asking yourself, how can I help those 56 MPs progress us to independence instead of carping from the sidelines. What do you suggest, that they don’t bother turning up to debates and just sit in their offices and do bugger all. That would get us far wouldn’t it?

    Perhaps if Mr Bercow listened a bit more to the disgraceful language of the other MPs when SNP members are speaking, and handed out a suspension or two that would aid us a bit, but do not ridicule our elected members when they are in a lions den.

    Remember if you do not try against the odds, you will never win.
    History has proven that the underdog can win.

  68. Dorothy Devine says:

    Did anyone have the misfortune to view the Scottish Labour Party

    Political broadcast?

    Central casting sprang to mind .However should that not be the case I would love to know the names of those involved – they shouldn’t be shy after all .

    My experience of the Scottish National Health Service is viewed through the experience of my husband and I can only say they have been fantastic and I am tired of the attacks on them.

  69. galamcennalath says:

    geeo says:

    Now tell me the 2017 result was not that great.

    By recent standards is was good, but not great. FPTP results in seats masks the popular support.

    2011 902,915, 45.4%

    (2014 1,617,989, 44.70%)

    2015 1,454,436, 50.0%

    2016 1,059,897, 46.5%

    2017 977,569 votes, 36.9%

    WM and Holyrood Constituency votes. So essentially all FPTP. With IndyRef1.

    Turnouts are different, so it’s those percentages of popular support which show where voters’ loyalties lay.

    Comparing 2015 and 2017 the SNP lost around 500k votes. 300k stayed at home, 200k went to Labour. (200k went from Lab to Tory).

    IMO 2017 shows the fragility of SNP support. Many Scots traditionally voted SNP at Holyrood and Labour at WM. This trend returned for ~200k voters.

    In 2015 voters rallied to the SNP in a way they didn’t in 2017. With IndyRef2 hopefully not far away we need SNP numbers well over 40% in any vote, whatever type of election.

    Imagine the disaster which will befall Scotland if the SNP drop to 40% in Holyrood 2021!

  70. Colin Alexander says:

    Maria F

    I agree that it was NOT the SNP who broke the promises of Devo-max.

    But, you appear to suggest there was nothing the SNP could do about it, except protest about it.

    As I said, they had the sovereign mandate of 50% of the vote and democratic mandate that Devo-max should be delivered. Holding the UK Govt’s feet to the fire, as they called it.

    That should have been when the SNP walked away from Smith and used that 50% sovereignty to trigger popular sovereignty to declare Holyrood a devo-max parliament.

    But, that’s old news.

    Currently, we face Brexit. Again, no attempt to enforce the popular sovereignty of Scotland despite the SNP voted in on 50% in 2015 that Scotland’s vote must be respected and that EU-Ref result was Remain at 62%.

    Instead we recently had the SNP standing shoulder to shoulder with Tories campaigning for a no-strings-attached second UK-wide People’s vote. A People’s vote that would have all but guaranteed there would be no indyref2.

    In England, Parliament is sovereign, not the people. And a UK-wide vote would have again actively prevented Scotland’s people from exercising popular sovereignty regarding the EU, cos their future would again be decided by England’s votes outnumbering them 10-1.

    For me, protest speeches don’t go far enough.

    So, at what point do you get cheesed off with the SNP: No indyref before Brexit? No halt on Brexit?
    What’s your cut off point where you stop giving the SNP unqualified support?

  71. Cactus says:

    Aye SO Love Scotland.

    Yer aweright jezza.

    Show me.

  72. ronnie anderson says:

    Dorothy Devine Central casting agency doon Dobbie’s Loan lol

    Ah kin dey Sad Bad Teary Mad Demented Gies ah joab .

    One things for sure those jobbing actresses & actors will not be using that in their CVs in their next joab interviews.

  73. Cactus says:

    The way.

    Ahm on location…

    Keep listening to Indy Live Fuckin’ Radio.

    They got the beat.


  74. Dorothy Devine says:

    Ronnie , you’d be the bee’s knees! I’d certainly believe in you rather than the tumshies on that PPB.

  75. Clootie says:

    Labour hits another new low with their Party Political Broadcast tonight. The one thing they are very good at is misleading voters by distorting data.

  76. Tam fae somewhere says:

    Labour (Scottish branch) just did a party political broadcast running down the Scottish NHS under the SNP.

    Did no-one point out to them how badly they run the Welsh NHS (as per earlier article on this site)?

  77. Proud Cybernat says:

    CA give it up. Wee see you. And it’s no’ gonnae work. Ever.

  78. Does anyone know if the recommended Parliamentary boundary changes will/have gone ahead,

    they want to reduce Parliament from 650 to 600 constituencies,

    which would mean 53 seats in Scotland instead of 59.

  79. Brian Powell says:

    Labour want to be the SNP and have its success, but it’s not, Labour is Wales.

  80. mr thms says:

    The Party Political Broadcast by the Labour Party in Scotland just now is not my experience of NHS Scotland in the past year. In fact, it was a disgrace.

    Apparently, the Labour Party in Scotland are going to invest more in NHS Scotland. It did not say by how much. I suspect it will barely scratch the surface of the PFI debt they landed Scottish taxpayers with.

    Investment in NHS Scotland and Social Care is at the highest it has ever been. There are better contracts for surgeries, and higher pay for doctors and nurses compared to the NHS in other parts of the UK.

    If the poor performance of the Labour Party in Wales, and the Labour Party’s involvement in the system now used in England, that established an NHS Commissioning Board (which was renamed NHS England) to commission services from private companies, is anything to go by, they cannot be trusted with one penny of the budget of the best NHS in the UK.

  81. GORDON FORREST says:

    Dont be fooled for a single moment The record will come down on Labour till the week before polling day. Then try and hammer the SNP with everything its got saying “the only way of keeping the Tories out is a Labour victory” and just one more time vote labour! The sad truth is many will! cos their Mammy and Daddy voted Labour and “they are for the working man” The only remedy is for everyone who is fit and able to get out knock doors now persaude as many as possible to switch and get them out knocking doors.

  82. Cactus says:

    It’s 7.5.

  83. Iain 2 says:

    My experience with the Scottish Nhs, I had kidney cancer and without the Scottish Nhs and their wonderful staff I would be dead.
    In 2010 with Jack Mc Connels labour Nhs there were flocks of pigeons in the corridors and the whole ward and the staff caught the Norma virus.
    If a party doesn’t care lying is easy.
    Labour does not care.

  84. Dr Jim says:

    Labour PPB

    AT the beginning of the PPB it reads the parts are portrayed by actors but the story is *real* what does that mean then? *real*

    Yes those people were definitely out of work actors or soon to be out of work actors, but more likely they were Labour members who describe themselves as actors, and if that’s the case Equity the actors union should be asked if they were involved at any stage, and you know what, I bet they weren’t, because when *actors* go on Telly draped in stethoscopes surrounded by medical equipment telling the public they can’t do their job because of a political party preventing them and emphasising the point with tears one would have to think accuracy to the Nth degree would be a legal requirement

    As for the story being true, well they plonked a whole series of numbers all over the screen to impress the impressionable but did they disseminate those numbers truthfully or factually, well no I don’t think they did and I hope some clever clogs takes that video frame by frame and rips a big hole in the entire lying broadcast so the FM has some terrific ammunition for tommorows FMQs

    Who knows? but this video may be actionable on several levels, more than me will have noticed this and I’m only a retired old nobody clever clogs

  85. ronnie anderson says:

    Dorothy Devine As a recipient of SNHS treatments over the last few years especially I cant praise our Health Services Workers enough , my own doctors surgery missed a appointment on Frid Podiatry called in appointment on Tues job done .

    Having full bloods done & ECG done this Frid Doctors treating it as precautionary just because Podiatry found I had a abnormal pulse in my foot & this is the 2nd time Brilliant Staff at Wellwynd Surgery .

  86. Dr Jim says:

    I’m moderated Rev, is that the word that begins with D and ends in D ?

  87. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Maria F @ 18:05,

    If Gordo Broon was a standup guy and an honest man, he would not only recognise that everything that he promised and promoted back in 2014 has been trashed and traduced, and moreover he would come out and say so in public loud and proud.

    While he wouldn’t be telling we indy supporters anything we didn’t already know, he would be performing a decent public service for the uninformed. The act of an honourable person.

    A cynical serial liar, or a once-respected figure whose hopes and promises were deviously misused? His current silence (for whatever reason) is deafening, and unambigously defines the man.

    Toom Tabard #2

  88. geeo says:

    Still dribbling, coco, I see.

    “That should have been when the SNP walked away from Smith and used that 50% sovereignty to trigger popular sovereignty to declare Holyrood a devo-max parliament”.

    Do you even read the utter drivel you post ?

    But not to outdo yourself, you come out with this:

    Coco says: “In England, Parliament is sovereign, not the people”.Β 

    Which English Parliament are you referring to there, coco ?

    There is no English Parliament and has not been one since a certain day in 1707.

    So again, what ENGLISH parliament is sovereign, the non existant made up one in your head pethaps ?

  89. Cactus says:

    Like Rev said on the previous thread…

    Tis a slow news day, SO…

    It’s ’19.


    Anyone interested in signing this petition… already stands on 56,000+ gone up by 280votes whilst I wrote this post.

    it is asking Parliament to REVOKE ARTICLE 50 if there is no BREXIT plan by Feb 25th. 2018.

    I think there is enough stuff has happened that we still have grounds to go ahead with Indy ref 2 even if Article 50 was revoked because their attitude toward us has been disgraceful.

    Certainly think there has been enough to constitute a material change of circumstances – taking the Scottish Government to court; refusing to accept our 62% remain vote; refusing us the Scottish Continuity Bill; overriding our LCM – a long tome ago- with the get out clause in the Sewel Convention and loads more.

  91. Cactus says:

    Prison Break ’19…

    Gretchen via Self has just killed ‘Jugs’.

    Ken whitta mean.


  92. Dorothy Devine says:

    Ronnie , I think my husband has been pampered and cosseted by the NHS – incredible bunch in different disciplines.

    Dr Jim , gie’s a clue – DiamonD ?,DrivelleD? DebateD? DribbleD?

  93. geeo says:

    @galamcennalathΒ says: “By recent standards is was good, but not great. FPTP results in seats masks the popular support”.

    Good grief. What a load of utter crap.

    I produced hard evidence of how it took the SNP 27 YEARS to win 35 WM seats and you reckon winning 35 seats IN ONE ELECTION in 2017 is “good by recent standards” !!!

    As for your FPTP assertions, utter mince. A WM election has ALWAYS AND ONLY ever been about SEATS WON.

    Handily, i also posted irrefutable facts about the 2017 GE on that as well.

    Wondering if you actually read my earlier post.

  94. Republicofscotland says:

    Losing most of their seats in no more than the London branch office of Labour in Scotland deserves.

    People have seen through their lies and deceptions, and their complete and utter contempt for the people of Scotland. Good riddance I say.

  95. starlaw says:


    You are right about the Record they have form on this. At a time when SNP were doing well the Record appeared to be onside until the morning of the vote then it was Vote Labour filling their front page.
    lets just leave the record to die.

  96. Cactus says:

    Season fa fa fa fa fa five.

    Tis February ’19.

    Days to go…

  97. Colin Alexander says:


    England’s Parliament continued in all but name.

    Black Rod and House of Lords etc. England’s Parliamentary traditions.

    They didn’t even bother to hold fresh elections for the English MPs for UK Parliament.

  98. Maria F says:

    Colin Alexander says:
    13 February, 2019 at 6:50 pm

    “you appear to suggest there was nothing the SNP could do about it, except protest about it”
    That is right.

    “they had the sovereign mandate of 50% of the vote and democratic mandate that Devo-max should be delivered”

    That is right. And how do you suggest they could use it to enforce delivery of Devo Max if 90% of the UK Parliament refused to do so, the UK gov refused to do so and the main opposition party in the UK refused to do so and the English supreme court refused to enforce it?

    “Holding the UK Govt’s feet to the fire”

    If not by highlighting it and making the people of Scotland aware of it, how could have they done otherwise? They have demonstrated to us that 9% of the seats in Westminster come to absolutely nothing when it comes to enforce anything in the UK. They have highlighted to us what the “UK parliament” actually is: England’s parliament.

    “Currently, we face Brexit”
    among other things. We are also facing the collapse of the 3 political arms of the English establishment in Scotland.

    “Again, no attempt to enforce the popular sovereignty of Scotland despite the SNP voted in on 50% in 2015 that Scotland’s vote must be respected and that EU-Ref result was Remain at 62%”

    I must admit that I would have much preferred to see a legal challenge of the Scottish gov in an international court against the UK government for having one of the equal partners of the UK forced its will over the other against its own will, for breaching our Claim of Right, for breaching the treaty of union and for breaching of the status quo we voted for in 2014, invalidating our vote. But I do think it is incredibly unfair to say that the SNP did not attempt to enforce the popular sovereignty when they prepared document after document with proposals for Scotland to remain in the EU, to remain in the Single Market and Customs Union, and when they prepared and PUBLISHED their own impact assessments. I don’t remember LibDems doing anything remotely similar, do you? Also, didn’t SNP MSPs, MP and MEP take to the ECJ the case of the revoking of A50? I don’t remember a single Labour or LIbdem MP growing the balls to do so, do you?Did you see the Scottish gov buckling like labour did in Wales in the case of the continuity bill? Did you see the SNP buckling like the LibDems, SLab and STories did with regards to brexit if the only way Scotland can remain in the EU is by leaving the UK? Did you see, apart ofthe SNP MPs, any other Scottish MP protesting that England MPs did not allow access to Scotland’s MP to the Brexit negotiating table? Hasn’t the SNP supported a people’s vote? Isn’t the SNP currently supporting an extension of A50? Didn’t the Scottish gov achieved a mandate for indyref to protect us? Didn’t you see the FM, the SNP MSPs and our SNP MPs constantly working to stop brexit or to find a way for Scotland to remain in the single market or customs union? I do not remember seeing anything remotely similar from Slab, Stories or SLibdems. Didn’t the SNP presented a motion of no confidence against the government?

    “Instead we recently had the SNP standing shoulder to shoulder with Tories campaigning for a no-strings-attached second UK-wide People’s vote”

    Err, let me stop you for a moment right there. A UK wide people’s vote where the option to remain in the EU is included. Please do not forget that bit, because that is the most important part of the whole vote. While I am not a fan of the people’s vote myself because I consider it a blatant dereliction of duty by the England MPs that appear to be more worried for protecting their seats than for protecting the UK, even I can see that by the SNP supporting that vote they have beautifully exposed Labour, and Corbyn in particular, for the monumentally deceiving, cowards and 2-faced hypocrites they are, so only from that perspective, the SNP supporting that vote has been worth it. Of course the last drop in the glass of hypocrisy, deception and inaction from Labour was Corbyn’s Benny hill act of calling a motion of no confidence on the PM. The SNP exposed them again at that time for the farce party they are. The SNP exposed them again for the cowards they are and for how they are letting down their own supporters when served them with a proper motion of no confidence on the UK government, the coward Corbyn and labour refused to rise to the challenge. In every single one of those occasions, we saw the SNP fighting against brexit and fighting against the tories whilst they were exposing labour for the useless opposition they are and for their collusion with the tories on brexit simultaneously. You cannot say they were not protecting our vote, from where I am standing they were and fiercely.

    “A People’s vote that would have all but guaranteed there would be no indyref2”

    Sorry, but that is complete bllcks, Colin Alexander. If it had guaranteed that there would not be indyref2 the hypocrites and cowards in labour, libdems and tories would have been falling over themselves running to have that people’s vote. No, Colin, should the English establishment and its 3 political arms have capitulated and accepted that people’s vote and they would no longer be in any credible position whatsoever to deny another referendum to Scotland ever again.

    “In England, Parliament is sovereign, not the people”
    Yes, that is right.

    “And a UK-wide vote would have again actively prevented Scotland’s people from exercising popular sovereignty regarding the EU, cos their future would again be decided by England’s votes outnumbering them 10-1”

    That is correct, but, also:
    1. it would have reinforced not only to Scotland, but also to the rest of the world just how different Scotland and England are politically and how pointless is the union
    2. It would have justified the referendum because England wants to follow a different path even after knowing the consequences of a brexit vote.
    3. It would have left the English establishment and its 3 political arms without any argument whatsoever to deny a referendum to Scotland ever again.

    “For me, protest speeches don’t go far enough”
    Absolutely, but when protest speeches is what you have, you have to use them wisely and give them in the right places at the right time. Joanna Cherry has this mastered down to a T. One thing is obvious: labour, tories and libdems are nothing but cowards that only survive politically thanks to deception and the protection of the broadcasters and MSM. Throw an intense light on that deception and the sand foundations where labour, libdems and tories stand will collapse. Actually, they already are.

    “What’s your cut off point where you stop giving the SNP unqualified support?”

    1. When they have delivered independence for Scotland
    2. When another pro independence Scottish political party (party, not branch) emerges that presents a convincing plan to deliver independence sooner than the SNP.

    Until that time, my support and my vote is for the SNP.

  99. starlaw says:

    Reports are coming in on Facebook that Labour used the same PPB in Northern England but with Norther English accents.

  100. jezza says:

    By law, the Brexit default position is No Deal.

    That is what Westminster voted for when they triggered Article 50.

    So when they tell us that it is either Teresa’s Deal or an extension to Article 50, they are lying.

    For Article 50 and Brexit to be extended needs Westminster AND all the other EU Nations to vote on it and agree an extension.

    Which a number of EU Nations have already told Treeza they ain’t gonna do.

  101. ronnie anderson says:

    Noo we ken everybudy rubs up wee Boaby but theres always exceptions tae the rule Fek aff Thomson .

  102. Ian Blackford on magnificent form today absolutely blistering in his accusations towards T May of running the clock down.

    Seems she ‘inadvertently mislead’ the house again today by saying that for Indy Ref 2014 there was no document from the SNP explaining the way forward after the vote.
    Unfortunatley Ian blackford managed to get hold of a copy of the actual SNP white paper form 2014 to show everyone in the H of C.

    several interesting video clips on this site.

  103. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    starlaw @ 20:06,

    And is the background Welsh again, by any chance? =grin=

  104. Cactus says:

    Vibrate Scotland ’19… oui god.

    Fa fa fa fa 4.

    Ah c’mon.

  105. Anybody think SLabour has lied in their PPB tonight?

    Maybe the standards committee should be notified?

    I’m sure Nicola will pick up on it tomorrow if there is an FMQ’s.

  106. Dorothy Devine says:

    Starlaw , it would not surprise me as I think some of the eejits in the labour party aren’t all that sure abut what is devolved and what is not and perhaps that PPB was a wee money saver used to spread gloom in a splatter gun attempt to win some other eejits.

  107. Cactus says:

    Come in Winger William Wallace…

    Tis never too early dude.

    Gretchen Love S4.

  108. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Just put up a Twitter poll asking if people believe Ruthy D will ever be FM.

    Almost 1,300 votes cast since 7-ish this evening.

    What % do you think have said ‘Yes’?

    Go on – have a stab, and nae Buster Keaton!

    I shall post link and results at 9.


  109. Dr Jim says:

    @Dorothy Devine

    It was a word describing something worn around the shoulders or could be curtains in America unfortunately I think the middle four letters of the word is the offending part which spells that of someone being assaulted in a sexual manner

    I think someone else got moderated for the same accidental thing, of course I could be wrong and it could be I just wrote some tripe the Rev thought was rubbish

  110. Iain mhor says:

    @MariaF 8:04pm

    Very good points. Well said.
    If I may add to that and wander into the esoteric realms of Sun-Tzu on the art of war – one of a few related tenets addresses this concept:

    “When you surround an army, leave an outlet free”

    This at its simplest, means a cornered beast is the most dangerous. The philosophy works both ways.
    If attacking allow the enemy room to flee, lest they fight to the death.
    If defending, ensure your troops have nowhere to flee, thus ensuring they will fight to the death.

    In short – WM are desperate and in fear and fighting on several fronts. You do not want them to focus all their desperation on attacking you. Give them a way out. The SNP keep dangling those carrots, they may bite at one.
    Conversely, where the enemy is slamming every exit route shut, your own troops will have no option but to take the only measure left available.
    The SNP are pointing to all the exits knowing WM will either succumb to one or slam them all shut, That is being held up by the SNP publically “See – this way is barred to you”
    That will eventually leave only one course of action left for the troops. They will not be able to hope or imagine that there is some vague, alternative political escape route.

    Of course that could all be so much horseshit and the SNP are as useless as CA & Rock (and others) say they are, or it could be actual strategy. For better or worse – one thing is for sure – absolutely no-one else is standing up for Scotland.

  111. galamcennalath says:

    geeo says:

    A WM election has ALWAYS AND ONLY ever been about SEATS WON.

    That is how the results are assessed and that is how WM works. It’s a shit system where a party can form a government at WM with 35% of votes cast.

    But evidence for how voters behave and move around is how you make plans. In real political decision making percentages matter, and changes in them.

    Comparing 2015 to 2017 there is a lot to be learnt.

    A couple of thousand 2015 SNP voters were surveyed. That’s a big sample. 23% didn’t vote in 2017.

    ~330k stayed at home. THAT MATTERS!

    Of those 2015 SNP voters who did vote in 2017 they were …

    SNP 71%
    Labour 15%
    Tory 11%
    LibDem 2%

    The 71% figure equates to the 977,569

    YouGov give results to the nearest whole number. So extrapolated figures can only be approximate.

    So voters left the SNP (2015-2017) to …

    Labour ~210k
    Tory ~150k
    LibDem ~25k

    It’s not hard to find data and extrapolate. Those are important underlying trends.

    There are two votes we must win, IndyRef2 and possibly Holyrood2021. Both of those will require pro Indy votes of greater than 50%. With the fluidity and fragility exposed by comparing the two GEs there are some trends which need tackling.

    IMO the SNP took a hit in 2017 which is masked by FPTP. Too many weren’t motivated to go and vote. And too many switched to BritNat parties.

    That concerns me and I suspect concerns the SNP leadership too.

  112. Dr Jim says:

    Tonight Yoonworld is leading with *We know it’s going to be bad and we don’t care but Nicola Sturgeon’s worse*

    The intellect of the Yoon soars above us all

  113. Ian Brotherhood says:

    ‘Do you believe that Ruth Davidson will ever be Scotland’s FM?’

    1705 votes cast ( since 6.50)

    No 95%
    Yes 5%

  114. Marcia says:


    You also need to examine the media during that period. The BBC seemed to be fighting a Holyrood election running a negative spin on anything the SNP did there when it should have been fought on Westminster issues. That was a deliberate tactic. Hopefully the SNP won’t fall into that trap again. Also the campaign in general was boring and a lot stayed home on a very very wet day as there was no motivation for many to turnout.

  115. Phronesis says:

    Whose democracy, governance and ideological beliefs should the newly independent Scotland adhere to? WM has abandoned democracy, time for Scotland to abandon WM.

    β€˜If we are going to address the dominance of corporate power in driving inequality, marginalisation and poverty – here in the UK and around the world – then now is the time to mobilise together to get rid of corporate courts once and for all. These courts, known officially as Investor-State Dispute Settlement or ISDS, enable big business to sue governments for making decisions that threaten their profits. These special powers are exclusive to global investors and allow big business to bypass national courts and get their cases heard in a corporate-friendly court where the law is tailored to their interests. ..As trade secretary Liam Fox discusses trade deals behind closed doors with countries including the US, we are fighting for parliament to have powers to scrutinise and approve trade deals’

    β€˜An incoming Labour government after Brexit would therefore have little room to carry out its agenda. Absent tax increasesβ€”which would depress activity yet further in such circumstancesβ€”there would be fewer resources to spend. Without drastic cuts elsewhere (and everything has been cut since 2008) there would be less money even for favoured sectors. Much as he might hate it, Corbyn might have to run down further the National Health Service, possibly leading to its demise in the form in which we have known it…a UK economy inside the EU is much more likely to be a growing economy and have a smaller deficit’

    β€˜The aim of the oil fund is to ensure responsible and long-term management of revenue from Norway’s oil and gas resources in the North Sea so that this wealth benefits both current and future generations. The fund’s formal name is the Government Pension Fund Global…Norges Bank Investment Management, as a financial investor, expects multinational enterprises to exhibit appropriate, prudent and transparent tax behaviour. We have developed a set of expectations towards companies with regards to tax…As a financial investor, we expect companies to work against corruption in all its forms. We have developed a set of expectations towards companies with regards to anti-corruption’

  116. I haven’t seen the Scottish Labour Party Broadcast yet.

    I remember watching them when I was younger as they were often powerful and persuasive. I’d watch them, hoping they weren’t too damaging to the independence cause.

    I’ll probably catch tonight’s on Youtube at some stage. Long gone are the days of watching in trepidation, though. It will be a doom-ridden rant with comedic qualities.

    If the Labour Party was your dog, you’d be looking at it now and having a difficult conversation about having it put down.

  117. Haggishunter says:

    I’m guessing the Brit establishment is using their propaganda machine to promote the Tories at Labours expense, then move on to β€˜ulstercise’ Scotland between Scot Indy and Brit Nat

  118. Robert Peffers says:

    @HandandShrimp says: 13 February, 2019 at 2:33 pm:

    ” … as indeed Labour increasingly seem to be in the UK.
    Never has an opposition failed to take advantage of such a useless, unpleasant government so spectacularly as Corbyn’s crew. They should bev10 points clear, not 5 behind.”

    Your just not getting to the truth, HandandShrimp.

    Westminster has always been a confidence trick Establishment. The party system was never for the benefit of the people – it was fir the politicians but the originals were the Whigs and the Tories but before too long the same old masters and serf divide surfaced again and Westminster became the same old elite the leaders had always been.

    Tory, Labour, Libdem all the same which is why they all retire to the same retirement home at the Lords.

    They are, and have always been The Unionist Establishment.

    Just like the SNP have a wide spread across the political spectrum but they all have the same basic overall goal – independence. The Party cannot survive actually gaining independent and will factionalise after gaining independence.

    Thing is that the SNP makes no bones about it and it is only independence that keeps them together while Westminster pretends to be three parties but unionism keeps them together.

  119. Maria F says:

    jezza says:
    13 February, 2019 at 8:06 pm

    “By law, the Brexit default position is No Deal”
    How is that? And under what law exactly? Because from where I am standing, A50 was triggered illegitimately without the consent of one of the only 2 equal partners of this union. So by law, the actual default position must be no brexit.

    “That is what Westminster voted for when they triggered Article 50”

    I don’t think so. When you say “Westminster” what you really mean is England MPs who do not hold the mandate of a single vote from Scotland, do not represent Scotland and do not speak for Scotland. As a matter of fact, the legitimate representatives of Scotland in the form of 58 of 59 Scottish MPs voted against triggering A50. As did an overwhelming majority of MSPs in Holyrood. That in my books means that Scotland has not given consent for the UK to give up its EU membership.

    Recently, when the ex-pats took the UK gov to court claiming that the vote should be invalid because of Vote leave breaking electoral law, if my memory does not fail me, the ruling was that the vote could not be declared null by the court because the referendum was only advisory and not legally binding. So if it is not legally binding enough to enforce electoral law in a court of law, how can it be legally binding to enforce that “law” that you talk about?

    “So when they tell us that it is either Teresa’s Deal or an extension to Article 50, they are lying”

    Yes, they are. Revoking A50 is the most obvious and rational option.

    “For Article 50 and Brexit to be extended needs Westminster AND all the other EU Nations to vote on it and agree an extension”

    However, to revoke A50 and stop brexit, consent of the 27 EU members is not required at all.

    “Which a number of EU Nations have already told Treeza they ain’t gonna do”

    Even more reason for revoking A50 rather than simply extending it, don’t you agree?

  120. Cageybee says:

    RE PPB
    The one broadcast in Scotland is a shorter slightly doctored version of the one here presumably broadcast elsewhere and the tories are the villians not the SNP. Same scenethough so I guess shot at the same time

    I feel dirty having linked to this

  121. Tatu3 says:

    If the Labour party broadcast in Scotland was putting down the SNHS under SNP and the London channels were criticising the (E)NHS under the Tories, as they did on the north of England channels.
    What did the Labour party broadcast do/say in Wales I wonder??

  122. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 20:45,

    Your points are well made. It’s popular support that (rightly) exercises the SNP leadership. FPTP managed to hide some damn close-run things in 2017. (Just ask Pete Wishart.)

    However, 2015 and 2017 were both anomalous, though for different reasons. Thus difficult to meaningfully compare.

    2015 was all about buyers’ regret. It involved many people who voted “no” the year before and felt somewhat ashamed at their own timidity and letting a beautiful dream wither, combined with the realisation that we in Scotland had become the put-upon again.

    But if that year’s election signifies anything, it surely reveals how many people are willing to be convinced if only we can reach and inspire them. If it also created inflated expectations for subsequent elections in which dirty tactics would inevitably be deployed by an opposition whose only weapon was fear. The slow grind of incessant negativity in the interregnum.

    2017 came unexpectedly right in the wake of a invigorated SNP who had passed the preparatory legislation for S.30 and looked ready to make The Big Move. With Brexit yet but a small dark cloud on the distant horizon, the BritNats were able to lead almost monomaniacally as a near-unified force with a full-on scare of the indy-unknown, represented very forcefullly by Ruthie with the ever-willing assistance of the media. This was peak indy fear, and it was deployed at just the right moment for them. They were offering the hesitant and insecure an excuse to bury their head in the sand and put off the “evil hour” of actually having to choose a future.

    Ironically, just as in 2014, it did the non-Tory BritNats no favours. By exclusively attacking the SNP, Labour and LibDem had to watch as the Tory gains, some at their own expense as with Gordon, kept them from power in London.

    The SNP, on the other hand, fumbled the ball, as is well recognised by all except perhaps the zealots. From the heady heights in March of being on the point of launching IR2, instead they had reverted to being “better managers of devo” again. Instead of following-through and confronting the opposition head-on, they ducked the challenge and resorted to the old strategy of trying to rally across a wide spectrum, including those voters who liked their competence but didn’t necessarily support indy. Except the latter had been scared off by Ruthie & Co. and the pro-indy base was discouraged by the loss of direction and force.

    Now we have a different situation again. Brexit is a roaring threat that is becoming increasingly difficult for anyone to ignore, no matter how normally disengaged. Real personal prosperity is at stake, and many who were once prepared to give the old parties one last go are now detached and up for conversion.

    Very soon now it will be peak Brexit fear. If we are to learn any lesson from the little corporal, that is exactly the time to act.

    Though it won’t be in a UKGE. That’s one of the spoils of the hoped-for Tory Brexit victory that they are reserving for afterwards.

  123. Cactus says:

    Prison Break 2019.

    Let’s get a rammy a gaun.

    Tis S4 E17.



  124. Clootie says:

    Trust the Daily Record!

    I would NEVER trust that rag. They are in the same club as the Herald and Scotsman but with a veneer of Tartan which is insulting.

    No matter what claims they make this is a bastion of Unionism.

  125. Robert Peffers says:

    @ Colin Alexander says: 13 February, 2019 at 3:22 pm:

    ” … Answer:
    As much as they achieved with 6.
    That’s the bitter truth.”

    Well it certainly is bitter, Colin, but it sure as hell is not the truth. You are really a snivelling, small minded unionist at heart, Colin.

    They built a great many more new homes than their predecessors, built the new Forth Crossing and duelled the A9. Increased the number of police on the streets and built the new Glasgow Hospital, (I can’t remember it’s name for some reason), they did these things and more without a PPP/PFI Scheme and brought them all in within time. They improved the SNHS, Scottish Education and they provided free prescriptions, built new rail links, free home care for the elderly and froze the Council Tax for years and a damned sight more too.

    Your just a bitter and twisted anti-indy numptie Colin and the more the SNP do the more bitter and twisted you get.

  126. Cactus says:

    Love Scotland Colin.

    RP knows.


  127. Robert Peffers says:

    @Abulhaq says: 13 February, 2019 at 3:30 pm:

    ” … Remember the time when the SNP had all but 3 of the Westminster seats and 50% of the popular vote?”

    The union trolls are really getting desperate. I’m always heartened when I see them out in numbers – it means we are really getting closer and their worried attacks expose their fear abject fear of the looming certainty of independence.

  128. Cactus says:


  129. jezza says:

    Maria F

    Quite agree with the revoking,,,,but but but,,,that will never happen.

    The word from Westminster is that it’s Treezas Deal or an extension,,,which is a lie, because No Deal is the default option.

    But I completely understand what you are saying when you say Scotland is not listened to.

    But no matter how much we scream and shout Westminster will not listen.

    And the more fucked up Brexit is, the more Scots we get voting for Independence.

  130. Hamish100 says:

    ge ee us a brek luv

  131. Cactus says:

    Aweright jezza bud…

    Are ye game for Wings Over Dow’s.

    Wood B cool 2 meet cha!


  132. Cactus says:

    Aweright Hammish100.

    Well whit wud ye like me tae gie ye a break frae baby?

    Are you the original Kit-Kat boaby?

    Aye smell bacon Love πŸ™‚

  133. Robert Peffers says:

    @Breeks says: 13 February, 2019 at 4:43 pm:

    ” … You’re missing the point.”

    Aiblins it maun bi ye an the ither unionist trolls wha dinna get the point.

  134. geeo says:

    Coco dribbled: “England’s Parliament continued in all but name”.

    Nope, it was put into PERMANENT RECESS.

    Which part of that are you struggling with ?

  135. Cactus says:

    Hey Indy Live Radio.

    You just keep on getting better…

    Fucking High.


  136. Cactus says:

    Somebuddy Has Got To Do It.


  137. Hamish100 says:

    Labours Political Broadcast.

    The English version is online via BBC Website. Can’t find a Welsh version but would be interesting to compare. Some different actors compared to the NHS Scotland one and accents!!. How come the NHS facilities look the same. Cringingly bad.

    Dear Labour supporter please see the lies being told. The NHS is not safe in you or your tory pals hands.

  138. Cactus says:

    Here jezza, whit dae ye think about this Hamish100 here fellar?

    Ah think he’s aweright but ee’s ah bit gally.

    Ah just made ‘gally’ up Dr Jim.

    Fuckin’ Scotland!

  139. Hamish100 says:

    Cactii & jEEZO- 2 of the same. Divert from any discussion on Scots independence by constant drivel. nae iq.

  140. cynicalHighlander says:

    Cactus says:
    13 February, 2019 at 10:22 pm

    Hey Indy Live Radio.

    You just keep on getting better…

    why are only 15 of us listening?

  141. Cactus says:

    Ditto denied H100 dude.

  142. Cactus says:

    Hey cynicalHighlander…

    Progress takes time.

    Big moves in small steps.

    We are gaun thru da change.

  143. Hamish100 says:

    Welsh Labour PB takes a different tack than their Scots and English broadcasts.

    It appears they don’t wish to mention their role in damaging the NHS in Wales

    Maybe Leonard will raise it tomorrow at FMQ’s

  144. Cactus says:

    Eagles NOW playing on Indy Live Radio.

    We’re Takin’ it…

    Are U?

  145. Thepnr says:

    It’s just my opinion of course but I’d say an extension to Article 50 isn’t just likely but a certainty I know that puts me on polar opposites with those that believe it’s an impossibility but I don’t mind that as we each have our own views LOL.

    Hands up all those that believe Olly Robbins inadvertently blurted out that the UK would end up accepting May’s deal or “a long extension to Article 50” within earshot of an ITV reporter in a Brussels bar was an mistake. Maybe due to too many bevvies and it kind of slipped out hahaha.

    That’s too ridiculous for words if you were to believe that, you’re talking of someone who is still a young man at 43 years of age and yet in his short career has been Principal Private Secretary to Tony Blair before he resigned as prime Minister.

    When Brown took ever he moved on to become “Director of Intelligence, Security and Resilience – in the Cabinet Office” until 2010 when Cameron took over and in pretty much the same role but now known as Deputy National Security Advisor.

    On it goes until May is appointed and he immediately becomes her “head of the European and Global Issues Secretariat, advising the Prime Minister on the EU and to oversee Britain’s exit from the European Union”.

    So last night he gets pished in a bar and blabs to the world May’s secret plan hahaha.

    The question is though who was the message for, I think it was for a few groups, the EU for starters and is a big hint to them to watch out we will be seeking an extension to article 50 and we wan’t a long one. It was a message to Rees-Mogg and his ERG lot, in short two fingers.

    Also a message to the public to soften the blow when it does happen that an extension is coming.

    What May wants and is probably desperate for is a reason to ask for that extension, she does not want it to be laid at her door so it has to come from the opposition, a they made me do it” and they will. That’s what this charade of can kicking is all about, her being seen to be forced into a corner, left with no choice but it wasn’t her fault.

    That’s my view anyway, feel free to tear it to shreds πŸ™‚

  146. Cactus says:

    Wings Over Scotland


    Indy Live Radio.




  147. Cageybee says:

    can’t watch the Wesh one without signing in to the EBC feck that fir a game o sodjurs

  148. Thepnr says:

    Labour PBB I don’t think anyone has linked to the Scottish broadcast yet for those that don’t watch telly here it is.

    A really cringe inducing effort but the comments are worth a read πŸ™‚

  149. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Thepnr @ 22:50,

    I’m getting to think the same way, actually. Nothing will be ready by 29.Mar, not even UK measures for a no-deal exit.

    But even so, I can’t see EU patience lasting beyond the beginning of the merrie month of May and their elections. And given the increasing fragility of the process, there is always the potential for something unplanned coming along to upset things.

    (Maybe even indyref2, perhaps…? =grin=)

  150. jezza says:


    The Rev will sort out any site bullies.

  151. jezza says:


    As somebody posted earlier,,,,play “Lion Ayes” by the Eagles .


  152. off topic

    We are at the beginning of the soft launch of Indy Live Radio.

    We are re-building the temp website that is there at the moment. The new website will inculde a chat box next to the radio player for listners to talk amongst themselves. The crowdfunding comment on the site I cant do anything about as I dont have access.

    We have not sorted out the daily schedule for music and it is mainly coming from one music track group. BIG JOB but we will get round to it.

    We have capabilities to easily run podcasts from anybody. Also we can get people to run LIVE shows from anywhere. We can run audio from livestreams to radio. We have iOS and Android v1 apps developed.

    Getting there. If you have complaints, please send to our complaints department at the BBC or get behind us.

    Kevin Gibney Independence Live/Indy Live Radio

  153. Cageybee says:

    Just found a survey from YouGov in my inbox asking me if I thought the BBC were being good for the people of Scotland and whether I trusted them etc. sadly I could onlyfill in the enswers once

  154. Cageybee says:

    Answers doh

  155. Cactus says:

    Well said Nicola ohn ra LIVE television…

    Did u see it on a guest tv.

    Aye did.

  156. Thepnr says:

    Check the state of this headline tonight by Cleggy of the Record.

    Nicola Sturgeon puts brakes on IndyRef2 with delay threatening to split Yes movement

    In comments likely to split the Yes movement, the First Minister insisted she still needs more clarity on the UK’s relationship with the EU before committing to another vote on Scotland’s future.

    The issue of if and when to call a second independence referendum has been the subject of fierce debate among Scottish nationalists in recent weeks.

    Someone else got there and archived before me, cheers.

    There’s a reason of course that they keep on pushing this dross. It’s SNP civil war all over again but the time it’s the whole Yes movement and not just the SNP. Don’t fall for their guff.

  157. Cactus says:

    Aye agree jezza.

    Gaun play me yer favourite YT tune…

    Dedicate 2 me dude.

  158. Thepnr says:

    Tonight’s update on project “Extend Article 50” Stage 2:

    “More than 40 former British ambassadors and high commissioners have written to Theresa May warning her that Brexit has turned into a β€œnational crisis” and urging her to delay proceedings until the government has greater clarity about Britain’s likely future relationship with Europe.

    The letter, signed by many of the most senior diplomats of the last 20 years, underlines concerns that British influence in the world will wane if the country leaves Europe’s trading and foreign policy bloc.”

  159. Thepnr says:

    Oops, I missed a bit.

    In a joint statement they write: β€œAs former diplomats who have served around the world we have a clear understanding of what contributes to Britain’s influence in the world. Our advice to Theresa May today is clear: we should not leave the EU when we have no clarity about our final destination. Instead we must use the mechanisms at our disposal, above all we must seek to extend the article 50 negotiating period.”

  160. Cactus says:

    Hey Yvette Cooper, yer a trouper…

    Peston aint it like.

    Honda guest tv.

  161. jezza says:


    The floor is yours mate.

    Play whatever takes yer fancy .

    Treeza May”s song of the moment has to be,

    “Who’s sorry now”

  162. Morgatron says:

    Interesting to see the letter in the P&J defending Billy (Quad) Hilters comments / rant last week on QT by Pauline Eggerton from Inverness, oh her of SIU fame, it appears she to likes a wee flute number.

  163. Cactus says:

    Don’t mind if aye do j, aye have ideas and notions and soon..

  164. Morgatron says:

    Cactus, hotta be , Rip it Up & Star Again as Theresa hot tune for ra night.

  165. Dr Jim says:

    David Clegg gets his news from WOS don’t you David
    At least pitch in a couple of quid at the fundraiser for the free up to date latest information so you can twist it round on your populist magazine

    Ever thought about Journalism Mr Clegg I heard you work for a newspaper or is it still The Daily Record

  166. Kangaroo says:

    Ian Mohr @ 8:45

    You must have been reading the Runes.

    A correct Sun Tzu position, which is precisely why the 29th March is the optimum date.

    I fear that we are going to be overtaken by events from across the pond. Although there have been some delays to the timetable, sources suggest(not providing a link) that this weekend could be big.

  167. yesindyref2 says:

    Instead we must use the mechanisms at our disposal, above all we must seek to extend the article 50 negotiating period

    Interesting turn of diplomatic phrase. Considering that Article 50 can be revoked, but “in good faith”, a little twisted diplomacy says

    “Well, EU-27, give us an extension, or we revoke Article 50 in “good faith” but nothing to stop us invoking it again, maybe even days after, who knows? Up yours EU-27.”.

  168. Cubby says:

    Dr Jim @12.00am

    I hope we get independence before Ireland is reunited because the last thing Scotland needs is more people like Clegg coming over. What a horrible person.

    Sick of N Ireland bringing its sectarian views to Scotland.

  169. Thepnr says:

    There is no such thing as Theresa may’s deal, nor will there be a modified May’s deal with Corbyns input.

    No matter what happens now if there is ever to be any kind of deal then it will be the EU’s deal that they have offered the UK.

    A take it or leave it deal, and that’s exactly where we are now.

  170. Thepnr says:


    β€œWell, EU-27, give us an extension, or we revoke Article 50 in β€œgood faith” but nothing to stop us invoking it again, maybe even days after, who knows? Up yours EU-27.”

    Good point.

    An “extension” of Article 50 is always possible even if any of the EU 27 say NO. The UK can unilaterally revoke it anytime they choose up until 29th march for the moment and if they ever got their shit together one day, decided they wanted to leave then invoke it again if they were so inclined.

    Oh me oh my… This could go on for a while yet.

  171. Cactus says:

    That’s me just moved up tae the guest loft, Winger jezza…

    Ahm aboot tae watch a new DVD, called “Sully”

    It’s a Hudson fluid ‘new waters’ movie…

    Ye seen it dude?

    Thepnr kens.

  172. Kangaroo says:

    Re Extending A50

    May : We demand to extend A50
    EU : Oh really, why is that?
    May : We can’t get agreement on the Backstop, so we need time
    EU : Hell can be quite hot at times, enjoy

  173. yesindyref2 says:

    The thing is that May does it in “good faith” but some senior bod has one too many Belgian beers in a bar in Brussels and spills the beans that it can be invoked again.

    May calls a GE, the people are so grateful the can’s kicked further down the road, she blames Cameron for not having a plan and the ERG for making it all impossible, they get deselected, Corbyn does, well, nothing, the Tories already ahead in the polls go further ahead, she gets an overall majority doesn’t need the DUP, the ERG are mostly gone, and she retires and goes hill-walking in Wales.


  174. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    It’s intomorrows Nationa tha the BBC actually edited out most of Fiona Hyslops reply to the ranter. He got a minute and twenty seconds and she was edited down to seven seconds.
    We must not let this one go.

    Very much in favour of notice boards like the ones that use to sit outside newsagents. Got a printer that would knock up posters immediately for them as well.

  175. Cactus says:

    Dedicating it to ye jezza dude:

    Fucking Glasgow!

    Fuckin’ Scotland!

    Fuckin’ X!

    We are No.1!

  176. Kangaroo says:

    Re Negotiations after a No Deal exit

    May : We need to discuss a Free Trade Deal
    EU : not until we have agreed i) EU citizens rights ii) the Irish Backstop and iii) we are in receipt of Β£39billion

  177. Cactus says:

    Gaun then jezza, ye tempted may:

    Whit’s yer next flavour dude?

    Check out the chorus…


  178. Shug says:

    Dave at 12.33
    Bbc is on a war footig where all and any tactics are ok
    Worse will be to follow haud oan ta yer breeks
    Next indy parade must pass the bbc with we dont believe you signs

  179. Colin Alexander says:


    According to this website you are wrong. It says:

    “The English Parliament was prorogued”, not abolished.

    Wikipedia says this:

    “All of the traditions, procedures, and standing orders of the English parliament were retained, as were the incumbent officers, and members representing England comprised the overwhelming majority of the new body. It was not even considered necessary to hold a new general election”.

    See also:

    “It was not immediately clear, for the purposes of the 1694 Triennial Act, whether the First Parliament of Great Britain would count as a “new” parliament or as a continuation of the current English parliament that had already sat for two years. Some (e.g. Harley) argued that it was a continuation, as it was not summoned by fresh writs, and thus expected its term would expire 14 June 1708, and it would have to be dissolved and new elections called before the deadline.”

  180. manandboy says:

    For the record.
    What happened to England with the EURef in 2016, Colonial England did to colony Scotland in Indy14. Now remainers know how it feels.

  181. Gary says:

    I’ve noted a small trend. There seems to be a VERY begrudged acceptance that SNP are, in fact, doing a good job AND that holding the view that Scotland should be independent IS a legitimate viewpoint. The tide is ever so SLIGHTLY turning.

    Articles like this, inaccurate as they are, the STV coverage of the repression of Catalonian aspirations of independence and the political prisoners (because that is LITERALLY what they are) being put up for a show trial and even The Scotsman reporting in a less than COMPLETELY negative way in regard to such matters.

    The cynic in me says that they are reporting these stories differently in order to lull us into a false sense of security so that they can ‘manage’ the effect they have on us but ultimately there has been a small but significant shift.

    That is everywhere EXCEPT the BBC, which is throwing out challenges to prove they have broken their guidelines.

    However, it is so discredited in the eyes of any who watch it that it is only the unthinking who swallow their propaganda now. Sadly it’s these few who need to be reached to secure our future.

    They think that criticising Labour (for not being Blairite enough) and the Tories (for wanting Brexit) means they are balanced. It doesn’t, it simply betrays them as Blairite Labour supporters who are anti Brexit and fail to respect any view that falls outwith those parameters.

    Even RT is less biased these days…

  182. Cactus says:

    Here we go Morgatron ~

    It’s a song about RESET:

    Currently… 2,604,239 Wings readers views

  183. Cactus says:

    They played this song last night on Indy Live Radio…

    Ah couldnae believe it!

    Is it 43 days NOW?

  184. Colin Alexander says:

    Robert Peffers

    Please don’t be so presumptious to tell me what and who I am. There’s no need for that.

    I treat you with respect, sir. Even though you are senior to me, I politely request that you show me the same respect too, like civilised Scots, when debating with me.

    I am not a Unionist. One of the reasons I so strongly favour Scottish independence is a desire to have Scottish Govts we can hold to account and vote OUT, as well as vote in.

    A Supreme Parliament that is accountable to the sovereign people and held accountable in law. So, NOT an English / UK type sovereign parliament
    that rules over the people and over the law.

    The achievements you quoted were devolved areas under the Scottish Parliament, not the achievements of SNP MPs at Westminster.

  185. Cactus says:

    Rock hard, Rock heavy, Rock animal…

    Krusher’s Kosmos – What Am I Doing:

    A tune fae the loft:

    Love U.

  186. chicmac says:

    Only thing wrong with your post is the ‘given’ that the BBC are anti Brexit. I see no evidence of that on view.

    From the ubiquitous presence of Farage to the salting of BBC QT audiences with Brexit supporters.

    To me they appear fully on board members of neo Nazi cabal which permeates and threatens to destroy democracy in England.

  187. Cactus says:

    To find IT!

  188. sandy says:

    Rule Britannia, Britannia wavies the rules.

  189. Cactus says:

    To say that: “These are the eyes of disarray”

    Scott Weiland knew.

    As did Freddy.

  190. Cactus says:

    Fuckin’ Happy Valentines Day all you beautiful Scottish people!

    It’s the 14th of February 2019.

    Love if U can.

  191. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    yesindyref2 @ 00:31,

    No, no, no, that’s just not credible.

    First off, to Thepnr‘s point @ 00:25, the UK couldn’t ditch A.50 now with the intention of re-invoking it a little ways down the road. The reputational damage of turning back now as a negotiating manoevre would be massive, both throughout the world at large and within the UK in particular. Brown’s latterday “march them up to the top of the hill then… ” non-election fiasco would be nothing compared to this.

    Secondly, to your point, May’s calculus would be all wrong. She has promised not to lead the Tories into the next UKGE, so she would have created a new mess for someone else to fix, just like Cameron. The people would not thank her for creating such an open-ended mess, they would not forgive her or her party, and most incandescent of all woud be her own hardline Brexiteers, who have a considerable degree of support within the party. It would be the moderates who would be deselected en masse, not the hardliners.

    I guess that’s why she’s so determined to keep on going. Because turning back would be political suicide.

    If she is to get a delay, it will have to be with the agreement of the EU27, who might well concede a short one (but nothing else), if only in order to minimise the fallout of a looming no-deal exit.

  192. Cactus says:

    And if yer single, like me Scotland, like you…

    Smile and fuck it!

    Of choice.

  193. Cactus says:


    How ye doin mes amigos Wingers Juan and Pedro ~

    Shout out to Winger dakk too…

    U are a BBC licence holder no more.

    Cool as fuck. πŸ™‚

    Honda ’51.

  194. Thepnr says:

    Robert J. Sutherland

    “the UK couldn’t ditch A.50 now with the intention of re-invoking it a little ways down the road. The reputational damage of turning back now as a negotiating manoevre would be massive”

    Of course you are quite simply wrong here Robert. Absolutely nothing in law is stopping the UK from revoking Article 50 now and invoking it again at a date of their choosing.

    As to the damage to the UK’s international reputation by invoking it again? What difference will that make? The UK governments handling of the negotiations so far have made them a laughing stock, not just in the EU but worldwide.

    Their reputation hahaha, that ship has already sailed and it’s leaking below the waterline. Nothing left now for Scotland but to man the lifeboats. Their reputation stinks.

  195. Cactus says:

    Just noticed there be a shortage of smilies on this thread…

    πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰

    And ah feel it… as does she…

  196. Dr Jim says:

    How do we know Oily Bobbins didn’t want to be overheard in a crowded bar making sure there were plenty of people to hear him making his *terrible* confession

  197. Cactus says:

    Is there a max… let’s to find oot it…

    πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ :);) πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚

    We good.

  198. Cactus says:

    =roll= =roll=

  199. Cactus says:

    Help me oot K1 ~

    Whit did a do wrang wae the rollio there?

    Your stage…

  200. Thepnr says:


    Get some zzzzz’s.

  201. Cactus says:

    Is it making use of yer colon perhaps…

    Let’s try that again…

    πŸ™„ πŸ™„

  202. Cactus says:

    Cheers n thanks Thepnr…

    Ahm burnin’ the oil thru the night:

    Who ken’s what’ll happen by the morn:
    125,780,056 current lookings dude.

    Independence waits for no man…

    Ahm 25/8.

  203. Cactus says:

    Mornin’ Thepnr ~

    You would like me to do some zzzzz’s…

    You got it:

    Love ‘TIME’.

  204. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Thepnr @ 01:53,

    You are right about the first part. Legally speaking there is no obstacle. But you’re not about the reputational part, even granted that the UK’s standing in the world is already seriously diminished.

    In terms of internal reputation, there are still a large number of people across the UK who are giving May some residue of the doubt. Some are neutral, some are ardent Brexiteers. I think my analogy with El Gordo’s election misfire holds up well with them both (if for different reasons). It would be Black Monday for the Tories all over again, and split the party into the bargain.

    But you’re dead right about us and the lifeboats. Whatever happens. I just wish we would get on now with swinging out the davits.

  205. yesindyref2 says:

    It’s a technical and legal possibility. What the probability is, nobody knows. But then back in 2016/17 it was being said that on invocation of Article 50 there would be 18 months to negotiate, and 6 months for everyone to ratify the agreement. Instead of that if it happens, it’s last minute even a couple of days before the deadline. Who would have predicted that?

    That’s the problem, nobody knows what’s going to happen, and it’s precisely why Sturgeon is having to take it to the wire – if that’s what she’s doing.

  206. Cactus says:

    Thereafter the 29th March 2019, THIS YEAR.

    A50 can’t be revoked.

    Lisbon Treaty.



  207. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    me @ 02:23,

    Or to extend that closing analogy a tad further, I just wish we would get on now with swinging out the davits, before the slope in the deck gets too steep to launch.

  208. geeo says:

    Oh dear coco, the English Parliament was put into recess not prorogued you blithering fool.

    The Scottish parliament was prorogued.

    You are not quoting historical fact, you are quoting utter gibberish.

    You get more ridiculous by the day.

    The Daily Express says nobody in Scotland wants an indyref yet it is an absolute fact the people of Scotland mandated one in 2016, perhaps if you quote the express, indy will simply go away huh ?

    You are entitled to your own opinion coco, but not your own facts.

    The English Parliament was recessed permanantly. 100% fact.

    Anything else is wrong opinion, wherever you quote it from .

    Deary me….whit ye like .

  209. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    yesindyref2 @ 02:24,

    There are uncertainties, yes, some more plausible and likely now than others, but we must be careful not to over-think this, and thereby paralyse ourselves from any meaningful action.

    At some point, if we are to win through, we really have to take the initiative and set our own agenda, and do it so forcefully that it dominates, despite the inevitable off-stage static.

  210. geeo says:

    Read coco’s link, where he claims English 1707 parliament was merely prorogued not recessed.

    Maybe coco should have read it himself, or more likely he did his usual, left rather important stuff out.

    The article states English parliament was prorogued FOR 6 DAYS (24th April to 30th April) when it was then replaced with the NEW united Kingdom parly.

    Always rely on coco to perform his own personal circus act.

    Oh dear.

  211. Gerry says:

    @Robert 1:39

    I believe what May actually said is that she would not lead the tories in the next SCHEDULED election.

  212. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Oh, and my last wee thought for the night. If Dis-May were to climb down soon, this would be so utterly humiliating for her that it would probably be the best possible circumstance ever for us to launch.

    (But I’m sure no-one realises that better than her, which is why she is so determined to see this business through. It’s that desperate. It’s a very high stakes play, this.)

  213. yesindyref2 says:

    The thing is if Sturgeon calls Indy Ref 2 then May revokes Article 50, Sturgeon is gazumped and looks silly.

    But as Sturgeon has said, even if Brexit is delayed, she can still call Indy Ref 2. Better she does that after any revocation of A50, then she gazumps May.

    It’s all timing.

  214. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Gerry @ 02:45,

    heh, heh. An interesting hair-split that!

    I continue to expect though she will climb down once Brexit is achieved, since that is the paramount political (and personal) objective. And I can’t see another UKGE until afterwards, to profit from the “win” and leave on a high.

  215. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    yesindyref2 @ 02:56:

    The thing is if Sturgeon calls Indy Ref 2 then May revokes Article 50, Sturgeon is gazumped and looks silly

    No, no, not at all. I understand the general principle you articulate, but we mustn’t let ourselves be cowed over this, because UKGov does not hold all the cards, and it depends on the situation. That’s what I’m trying to get over. In such a circumstance as we are considering, it’s May who will look incompetent, indecisive and silly, and in her weakness and humiliation provide us with exactly the right moment to cut loose.

  216. Fireproofjim says:

    PLEASE reduce your output of incoherent ramblings. They contribute nothing to an independence discussion and are likely to put off visitors to WOS. Thanks.

  217. Cactus says:

    Mornin’ Fireproofjim ~

    Yer fine, yer fine, yer fine…

    Ah’ll share ah secret wae ye one day dude…

    To learnio, yer aweright.

    Back 2 Sully.

  218. yesindyref2 says:

    It’s not being cowed, it’s playing it carefully.

    Scenario 1. Sturgeon calls Indy Ref 2, May gets up in the HoC and says she’s forced to cancel Brexit because of the Indy Ref. Perhaps she waves a bit of legal advice saying the UK can’t then exit the EU in terms of its constitution as per A50. The right wing media is incensed, and that upsets the Leave voters in Scotland. The Remain voters see no reason to vote YES as Brexit is cancelled anyway. Result – Indy Ref 2 gets less than 45% YES, maybe less than 40% YES. We’re fsked.

    Scenario 2. Brexit is to go ahead whether bad deal or no deal. Sturgeon calls Indy Ref 2 last minute on 29th March. Relief in Scotland, YES vote increases.

    Scenario 3. May cancels Brexit at the last minute. Sturgeon waits a bit, while the media does its nut, and then calls Indy Ref 2 at say end of May for a September vote. Grounds? We’re going to have to go through this all over again, and look at the economic damage it caused last time. YES vote increases.

    That’s the way I see it.

  219. yesindyref2 says:

    I forgot to use the word “brinkmanship”. Or brinkwomanship πŸ™‚

  220. Gerry says:


    I agree. Whoever makes the first move loses. May has the problem of an impending deadline, before which she has to make some kind of decision on brexit timescale. The FM would be daft to relieve that pressure for her by moving first.

  221. Cactus says:

    Sully survived.

    This is for me Daisy xx.

    Ra 80’s were most excellent!

    It’s been a while.

  222. Gerry says:

    Cactus, something 80s altogether more mellow for this early hour for you.
    A Celtic Medley watch?v=KrlpFA5BbuU

  223. Cactus says:

    Excellent Gerry πŸ™‚

    Here’s a final one for me Daisy:

    Played this tune here 4/5 years ago.

    Stille Nacht Feb ’19.

    A Leg Up.

  224. Cactus says:

    Hey Scotland ~

    Love Her, Love Him, Love whatever…

    Happy Valentines Day 2019.

    Everybuddy is SO fucking beautiful!

    Love something.

  225. yesindyref2 says:

    What gets me is the number of times May replies about Indy Ref 1 or Independence, whenever the SNP ask a question or make a statement. She’s getting the ground ready I think. The answer is not to let her choose the battleground.

  226. Cactus says:

    Stille here.

    Do ye ever feel like ah…:

    Ye guid furra tune yesindyref2 bud.

    It’s Love day ’19.

  227. Cactus says:

    This appears appropriate as a following…:

    The band are always IN season.

    111,000,429 views says SO.

    Nature is a whore.

  228. Cactus says:

    Aye give NOW an excellent dedication to me Smallaxe.

    “It’s only natural”

    He know.


  229. Cactus says:

    Dedication to a Lovely lady a coming up next…
    (Checkin in at 14,556,725 views)

    Love you Nana.

    Merry Valentines Day ’19 mwah xx.

  230. Cactus says:

    Next song after that one on the player:

    It was worth it Funky C.M.

    Had tae.

  231. Daisy Walker says:

    I put this on the other thread, but it’ll do here too.

    Thanks for all the links Nana and all.

    I’m not buying Olly’s loose lipped β€˜slip’ – I still think No Deal is the real goal. His β€˜slip’ is more likely to re-assure MP’s that there can or will be an extension.

    Really interesting the censorship being deployed on Another Angry Voice blog site, and all because he was impressed with Ian Blackford’s parliamentary speech and tried to put the video of it on Facebook!

    Its almost as if they don’t want the English public to see Scottish MPs’ speaking sense in parliament – so much harder to demonise them and Scotland thereafter.

    I was well aware of their censorship and bias up here in Scotland, but clearly they’ve been very actively erasing all things Scottish down south too. The β€˜othering’ of Scotland begins.

    I am getting frightened, and I don’t mind admitting it.

  232. Dr Jim says:

    The Great English Brexit breakfast can’t work if there’s no Scotland to pay for it
    They’ll let NI go because it costs money to keep it, no Scotland no money

    It’s all about the money and Scotland has the assets, what’s the first thing the Tories did, make a big issue over the fish why? EU needs it, Scotland’s got it, what are they selling right now, oil leases because everybody needs that and who’s got it? Scotland’s got it

    Why is England fracking all over the place? they’ve not got enough energy, Scotland’s got it, why are they sticking Union flags over every bit of produce they can lay their hands on? who’s produce is world famous and in favour at the moment? Scotland’s got it

    Who’s doubling its population with tourists every year? Scotland’s got it
    Who’s got the North Atlantic and North sea strategically desired by everybody? Scotland’s got it
    Who’s Britains most popular politician world wide? Scotland’s got her

    What’s England got post dogs breakfast Brexit? Hmmn? let me think… no! can’t come up with any advantages at all

    Morning all

  233. Tatu3 says:

    So true, Dr Jim @ 6.43, but there are some out there that just don’t want to/can’t see it!

  234. Petra says:

    @ Fireproofjim says at 3:18 am … ”Cactus. PLEASE reduce your output of incoherent ramblings. They contribute nothing to an independence discussion and are likely to put off visitors to WOS. Thanks.”

    Absolutely h*llish coming on here and having to scroll through all of this cr*p. What I don’t get is that some people are being / have been hounded off of this site for behaving, dribbling, just like this, that is if they’re not part of the clique.


    Let’s leave the EU to regain our Sovereignty. Aye right!

    ‘Brexit: Theresa May plans to lift 21-day delay to ram through EU withdrawal by 29 March.’

    ”Theresa May is planning to bypass laws setting out how long new international treaties are debated for to push Brexit through by 29 March. The prime minister will seek to lift the requirement for a 21-day delay before any vote to approve an international treaty, so that if a new deal is struck with the EU it can be ratified immediately before the deadline to leave the EU.”


    That’s Labour just lost even mair votes.

    ‘Winston Churchill was a ‘villain’ says John McDonnell.’

  235. mr thms says:

    I wonder why this BBC Scotland article does not state which party or parties runs Midlothian Council?

    “Music tuition saved as Midlothian council hikes tax nearly 5%”

    “Schoolchildren, teachers and parents took part in a protest outside Midlothian Council’s Dalkeith headquarters as the plans came under discussion.

    Many had musical instruments with them as they objected to the proposed cuts.

    Council leader Derek Milligan went out to deliver the news to protestors that music tuition had been saved.

    The council agreed to reduce some services to save money, including cutting back the school transport budget and increasing car parking charges.

    It will also close Vogrie golf course in Gorebridge, cut back on landscaping, reduce cleaning in council buildings except schools, stop its taxi card scheme and end healthy lifestyle development and community safety teams’ funding. Senior management will also be reduced.

    It will receive extra funding from the Scottish government and will find savings in addition to the tax hike.”

  236. ann says:


    I did, but thought it was still the news at first, but it seemed a wee bit too long.

    Then as the broadcast progressed, I thought NHS / SNP bad = Scottish Labour.

    Then I thought. Where has this all been filmed?

    Where are the NHS logos.

    would liked to have seen names, positions, hospitals they worked in

    All very fishy.

    ….and of course Scottish branch shoot themselves in the foot, because all that has to be said is Wales.

  237. Giving Goose says:

    Re the story that Labour Westminster could see frontbench rebellion over a 2nd EU referendum (or not) – what is the split in opinion in Scotland among MPs & MSPs etc?
    And does the cult of Brit Unionism trump (no pun intended) all EU scenarios?
    Anyone know?

  238. Nana says:


    First Minister of Scotland @NicolaSturgeon tells @Peston that it is β€˜frankly incredible’ we are discussing the possibility of food and medicine shortages in a prosperous country.

  239. Nana says:

    Lots of facts here

    “Mrs May and the Tory government have no plan.”
    Sinn FΓ©in leader @MaryLouMcDonald says if there is a Brexit “calamity” the question of Irish unity should be put to the people.

    Brexit is national crisis, former diplomats tell Theresa May

  240. Sinky says:

    Sensational revelations in The National that Bbc Question Time edited Fiona Hyslop’s detailed response to Billy Mitchell rant to a mere nine seconds.

    Good article by Alison Rowan in Herald

  241. Nana says:

    Morning Sinky, here’s the article from the herald

    Alison Rowat: So much for the Question Time queries, where are the answers?

  242. Les Wilson says:

    The problem with Slab is that their ghosts hang on to them, as new nightmares appear.The circle of lies go around and around and roun…….

  243. Dorothy Devine says:

    Good morning Nana. I have just watched the Peston clip and followed ny making the mistake of reading the twitterers .

    I am seriously concerned about the ignorance pervading the comments and am beginning to wonder if the government has put some sort of additive in the water to make folk thicker , less analytical and generally bovine.

    As for the wee ‘difficulty’ facing the Aberdeen South MP , words fail. He should be out on his ear , feet not touching ground .

  244. Nana says:

    Plaid Cymru’s Liz Saville Roberts says people feel “Westminster is failing them”

    Government must provide concrete detail on access to insulin in event of no-deal Brexit, say leading diabetes charities: In a joint statement, Diabetes UK and JDRF have said that, without more detail, they cannot say a no-deal Brexit would be safe for people reliant on insulin.

    Robinson Bang to rights

  245. jezza says:

    I see our resident DJ and all round philosopher Cactus has been keeping you all entertained through the wee small hours.

    And he does it all for free!!!

    How lucky are we to have guys like Cactus on our side.

    Keep up the good work Cactus, you are appreciated here on Wings by all.

  246. Nana says:

    Morning Dorothy. I tend to not read the comments below as I know the haters will fill the comments which makes me rage and raises my BP πŸ™

  247. Macart says:


    The ramping up of SNP exclusion and demonisation recently is pretty telling to be sure. They’re barely mentioned, consulted or referenced in the news anywhere else in the UK. They’re roundly insulted and abused in Commons (2nd largest party by membership and third largest by representation). When they are mentioned at all in any broadcast or the vast majority of UK publications, it’s invariably in the negative. And as for Scotland’s media? Oh Jings!

    That really should tell people something and not that the Essenpee are that bad, but that’s almost historically improbable. It should also tell people that the usual binary choice of Westminster are worried beyond belief. They are literally trying to eject a mandated representation from Westminster and UK politics. Why is that?

    Given the historic nature of Westminster governments and the creatures they have and are willing to deal with on a daily basis? Given the appalling uses to which they’ve put their mandates and used the public’s votes? That should also tell people something. Why would you attempt to erase from the body politic, a party that hasn’t started any wars, crashed economies, legislated with intent to harm its own population or acted illegally whilst participating within a given democracy?

    Pretty sure the SNP don’t want to be there tbf, but whilst the UK survives as a ‘democracy’? You’d think it would be fairly reasonable to talk to/include/give a fair hearing to folks who represent a fair sized chunk of the population of your ‘partner’. Apparently not. Apparently what you do is you attempt to delegitimise and marginalise said party whilst they have perfectly legitimate and legal rights to represent their constituencies concerns.

    Spooky. Not exactly what was on the bill of goods back in September 2014.

    Also? If the SNP have no representation at Westminster. How much easier is it to deny those they represent? How much easier is it to do quite a lot of things to Scotland’s population?

    Worth a thought.

  248. Dorothy Devine says:

    Morning Macart , how’s the man flu? Self medication working??

    I’m sure Westminster would like nothing better than the SNP MPS vacating the premises – they could then shout that they were not representing Scotland or their constituency ( not that that has stopped them from inventing such comments)

    I remain astonished at the Scottish Tory’s happily lapping up the insults as though they do not apply to them and I am looking forward to them scrabbling about trying to save a Tory seat defending the indefensible in Ross Thompson.

  249. Iain mhor says:

    Not appreciated by all, nor his enablers.

  250. Nana says:

    Morning Macart, I recall how many of us here on Wings warned about the shysters ‘bill of goods’ in 2014.

    “the most powerful devolved parliament”
    “equal partners”

    I’m sure other wingers will be able to recall a few more.

    The current shower of unionists in Westminster have taken contempt to a whole new level. Surely there can not be many no voters still believing they are anything close to being “equal partners” in this union.

    I honestly don’t know how the SNP MPs keep their cool, you have to admire their tenacity but my goodness they must be stressed to the max.

  251. Thepnr says:


    It looks to me that in recent weeks when the SNP are being reported on it’s because they are becoming more vocal in attacking their critics.

    Take Ian Blackford and his accusations about May being a liar in Westminster, I almost thought he wanted to be ordered to leave the chamber.

    Today we have Keith Brown in the National looking for answers from the BBC over the QT bias (see Nana’s links).

    Don’t know about you but I see this as all very encouraging, if going on a rant against your political enemies is what it takes to be noticed then doing that more often has to be a good thing.

  252. Doug_Bryce says:

    Ian Murray on radio this morning saying he would vote against SNP amendment to cancel brexit. His reason… Because it doesnt yet have majority in parliament. WTF

  253. Robert Peffers says:

    @Colin Alexander says: 14 February, 2019 at 1:13 am:

    ” … Please don’t be so presumptious to tell me what and who I am. There’s no need for that.”

    That’ll be in your humble opinion, will it Colin?

    ” … I treat you with respect, sir. Even though you are senior to me, I politely request that you show me the same respect too, like civilised Scots, when debating with me.”

    No, Colin, you do not treat me, or the indy movement, with respect. you accuse, abuse and oppose the FM/SG and SNP. I support them and fair criticism is fine – you do not fairly criticise and you lie, exaggerate and accuse.

    You asked a question – What have the SNP done – That’s fine and I answered you with just a few of the things they have done. For example Since I was a child, way back in the late 1940’s, my family always toured Scotland. There was a war on and thus no European holidays. The then Great North Road had single track segments, (Like the infamous Devil’s Elbow). the A9/A90 was a disgrace. 70 years of unionism saw very few upgrades.

    The SNP changed that. On those Highland tours we used the Queensferry ferryboats until the Forth Road Bridge was built. It was done on the cheap and paid for with tolls. The Forth Road Bridge & M90 were built while I travelled daily to my work at Rosyth. Both were skimped and badly designed.

    The M90 is even yet hardly more than a dual carriageway and the stretch from Rosyth to beyond Milnathort was badly designed and built. It was plagued by flooding problems. We had former Council houses sink into a vast flooded cavern caused by the M90 cutting west of Kelty bisecting 5 live burns that had previously been culverted under Kelty and drained into Lochore Meadows and down to the Forth. They didn’t provide a new path for the water. Those 5 live burns ran into the Kelty M90 cutting and then down the M90 and into Loch Fitty.

    They had to after-build a drainage system down beneath the M90 central reservation as the sides of the, “Motorway”, had become quagmires. – “But they don’t want you to Know that”.

    Yet here on Wings you accuse the SNP of having done nothing and expect us to believe you are not anti-indy and thus are pro-unionist. You cannot be both.

  254. Macart says:


    Doing fine Dorothy. πŸ™‚

    Also? Tories and hypocrisy are longstanding chooms. Westminster governments of ANY stripe have committed appalling acts using the public vote to undersign those actions. All that stuff the Essenpee haven’t done I mentioned above? That.

    Westminster governments have abused public trust on countless occasions. By ANY standard, the binary choice stewardship/politics of the UK is a hypocritical clusterf… of epic proportions. Yet somehow, a party of the UK (as it stands) that has not come even close to those historic levels of incompetence, criminality or venality are the bad guy.

    Go figure (shrugs).

  255. Petra says:

    Thanks for the links Nana.

    I see (7:57am) that there are concerns about widespread abandonment of land if there is a No Deal Brexit with the wealthy from here and abroad ready and waiting to move in, no doubt, to swallow it up. Lots of ”goodies” awaiting them one way or another.


    BBC credibility is really going right down the stank now. People like manipulative liar Andrew Neil (7:59am) should be sacked and Question Time (8:08 am) should be binned. Sad, or scary, to say it’s the same corrupt crew that have the contract to produce the new BBC Scotland programme due to be broadcast this month. First up a two part programme about IndyRef1.


    Dr. Mark McNaught blacklisted by the BBC too.

  256. Thepnr says:

    This Tory government has succeeded in forcing China to cancel planned trade talks between the Chinese Vice Premier and Phillip Hammond that were due to take place this weekend.

    All of course due to Gavin Williamson’s sabre rattling about sending aircraft carriers to the Pacific. You really couldn’t make this up without being laughed out of the room.

  257. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    galamcennalath at 8.45

    It is really very simple. A party formed to achieve independence strenthened by 100,000 new members wanting to fight for independence ran an election campaign that didn’t mention independence presumably under the fallacious notion that if we didn’t mention independence our opponents wouldn’t either.
    This is our problem. We appear to have lots of clever people who have never been over the course determining our tactics.

    Actually you’d need to be utterly blind not to have noticed that the unionist parties fought a LOCAL GOVERNMENT campaign before the “Snap” General Election that majored on “No second independence referendum” and to have imagined that they wouldn’t do exactly the same for the GE.

    They were coordinated behind the scenes targetting the most efficent anti SNP vote and this had been planned for months. In some seats the voters got avalanched with Tory mailing in others with LibDem mailing,all exactly the same in content – “no second independence referendum” for a never “snap”election which had been planned for months.
    I got 13 posted to my home while with huge membership in this area we couldn’t get the utterly useless SNP leaflets out. I have never in my 60 years in the SNP seen a worse campaign – a massive misjudgement which I sincerely hope we will never repeat.

    BTW I don’t think many SNP supporters moved to the Tories. SNP supporters stayed at home. I think what the figures represent was LibDem voters movement to the Tories. There was however a moderate Corbyn bounce which was significantly effective in some of the seats we lost to the Tories as a couple of thousand Labour voters for Corbyn who would normally have voted SNP as the best anti Tory vote may well in the final analysis have cost us dearly indeed and this has not been noted.
    In Argyll and Bute quite the worst candidate I have ever seen anywhere added about 2000 votes to the Labour vote and nearly cost us this seat.

    I believe it is time for all SNP branches and CAs to get togther their own independence campaigns and start running with them all the time. That is what we are for. Don’t wait for HQ.

  258. Nana says:

    Morning Petra.

    I am going to miss the Ponsonby Indyref2 site, they kept us informed of all the carry on at the bbc especially for those of us who do not watch or listen.

    Hoping someone steps up to take it over

  259. Macart says:


    Pretty much. A case of the more noise the Tories and Labour make, the more people should ask the question… why? πŸ™‚

  260. Petra says:

    @ Nana says at 9:59 am …. ”Morning Petra. I am going to miss the Ponsonby Indyref2 site, they kept us informed of all the carry on at the bbc especially for those of us who do not watch or listen. Hoping someone steps up to take it over.”

    Yeah it’ll be absolutely tragic if we lose this fabulous site Nana. I wonder if lack of money features in this? A need to employ more staff? If so, they should let us know (PLEASE let us know) and we’ll hold a massive fundraiser to keep them going. Additionally this will be right up the BBC’s street, of course. One down, how many more to go?

  261. Nana says:

    Alex Salmond begins a series looking at #Brexit from a European perspective. In this week’s @AlexSalmondShow he talks to some of Britain’s Brexiteers in Europe. There’s disillusionment with @theresa_may’s #Brexit & a determination to start a new party if their cause is betrayed.

    To mark #WorldRadioDay, we’re resharing some of our best @IrishTimesAudio Podcasts from the past year: Fintan O’Toole (@fotoole) on The Unfolding Tragedy of Brexit
    listen here

    That’s all folks

  262. Nana says:

    I’m not sure what the reasons are. I did a lot of work on the InformScotland website archiving every one of GAP’s articles as well as Newsnets.
    I imagine if the site folds that will also have an effect on InformScotlands site

    Perhaps Cadogan will let us know?

  263. Colin Alexander says:

    Robert Peffers

    You bang on about Scotland’s popular sovereignty. So, why don’t you, as an SNP member, ask the FM to exercise it: Scotland voted Remain 62%, a clear sovereign decison to Remain in the EU but, unlawfully(?) trumped by Crown sovereignty in UK Parliament when MPs voted for A50.

    We don’t become sovereign by voting YES to indy in an advisory indyref. We ARE sovereign.

    It seems too late for Indyref2 to stop Scotland’s EU exit, but upholding in court our democratic, by 62% to 38%, sovereign decision to Remain could.

  264. mountain shadow says:

    I was quick to lambast Fiona Hyslop’s Question Time performance and now it turns out that her answers were edited to suit the Unionist agenda.

    So, humble apologies from me.

  265. Republicofscotland says:

    “The leader of the Scottish Tory Council group, refuses to explain where a Β£100,000 pounds donation came from, even after an official request.”

    Tory dark money I say.

  266. Dr Jim says:

    The reason for a plebiscite on the proposition on Independence isn’t to prove or approve sovereignty to anyone, it’s an expression of actual will of the people to demonstrate to the UN the EU and any other interested parties that Scotland intends to trade and work with, that Scotlands sovereign people took a legal and fair decision on the proposition and agreed to it, then the transition to full membership of the aforesaid bodies will be smooth unlike the clowns in Westminster who just keep shouting *We’re British and we demand* and expect people to listen to them

    For God sake everybody in the world accommodates the English as it is by speaking their language because they can’t speak anybody else’s languages and even have difficulty speaking their own language half of the time

  267. Petra says:

    @ Nana says at 10:20 am …. ”Petra, I’m not sure what the reasons are. I did a lot of work on the InformScotland website archiving every one of GAP’s articles as well as Newsnets. I imagine if the site folds that will also have an effect on InformScotlands site. Perhaps Cadogan will let us know?”

    Well Nana let’s hope that this doesn’t lead to us losing another pro-Indy site … ”sigh”.


    @ mountain shadow says at 10:24 am …. ”I was quick to lambast Fiona Hyslop’s Question Time performance and now it turns out that her answers were edited to suit the Unionist agenda. So, humble apologies from me.”

    A wee bit of insight into how the Media is working in this country mountain shadow? It makes me laugh when I hear people talking about how ineffective the SNP are: ”They should say this and they should say that”. They’re lucky to be heard at all and even then their responses are being edited to suit the Britnat agenda. RT doesn’t have a look in when it comes to this lot and then you hear that Ofcom is worse than useless too, that’s Ofcom that hounds RT, just another Establishment lackey. A small part of the massive Establishment network.

  268. Petra says:

    Ooops – ”SNP is” not ”are”.

  269. Cactus says:

    A fine marnin’ to ye jezza for yer kind words and a Loving message to all of the other easily offended ones (for whatever reasons ye’s manifest in yer cerebral cortexes)… MWAH!

    Valentines Day FMQ’s at 12pm noon.

    Listen to it.

    Watch it.

    Do it.

  270. Let me say first of all I’m not defending the BBC, they are an utter disgrace and the TV tax should be scrapped, then lets see how many people pay to watch the BBC.

    But I believe the reason Fiona Hyslop’s answer was edited Was because the orange UKIP bigot was shouting at her to Give an answer about the allegations made against Alex salmond.

  271. Capella says:

    @ Thepnr – ha ha Gavin Spoilt Brat Williamson strikes again – with his boomerang. He is like a Beano character – a bad one.

    @ Nana – Plaid Cymru’s Liz Saville Roberts says people feel β€œWestminster is failing them”

    Liz Saville Roberts is spot on as usual. She seems to be wearing an SNP badge or is Plaid Cymru’s badge similar?
    Unfortunately, there then follows a tirade by the truly Toxic Theresa May. What a nasty piece of work is TM who once pointed out that the Tories were “the Nasty Party”.

  272. Capella says:

    @ Peter McCulloch – in that case orange Billy’s initial rant should also have been edited out. Who is to say that he didn’t deliberately mention AS knowing that could not be broadcast?

    It is a scandal and the BBC are fully responsible for this propaganda outrage.

    Alison Rowat’s Herald article is really a plea to stop criticising the BBC and asks us to wait and see how the new channel works out. No. There are far too many documented instances of anti-SNP broadcasting to guarantee that any “new” channel will be just as bad as the old channels. The same company “Mentorn” is in charge!

  273. Nana says:

    Morning Capella, I think the yellow ribbon badge is for the Catalan ministers in prison. I noticed it has a black outline but I’m not sure.
    The Plaid Cymru badge is a daffodil on a white backgound.

    Some info here re the two parties

    The SNP retains close links with Plaid Cymru, its counterpart in Wales. MPs from both parties co-operate closely with each other and work as a single parliamentary group within the House of Commons. The SNP and Plaid Cymru were involved in joint campaigning during the 2005 General Election campaign. Both the SNP and Plaid Cymru, along with Mebyon Kernow from Cornwall, are members of the European Free Alliance (EFA), a European political party comprising regionalist political parties. The EFA co-operates with the larger European Green Party to form The Greens–European Free Alliance (Greens/EFA) group in the European Parliament.

  274. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Capella.
    “Liz Saville Roberts is spot on as usual. She seems to be wearing an SNP badge or is Plaid Cymru’s badge similar?”

    It may be a Cancer UK pin badge.

  275. Sorcha S. says:

    OFF Topic

    A long time lurker here.

    Can I just ask what is the protocol for posting here on topics? I see a lot of posts especially late at night that appear OFF-topic and some that are just downright bizarre and seem to be in-jokes between posters.

    It is off-putting if, like me, you have not many real-life acquaintances interested in Independence and want to take part in conversations that relate to the topic above the line or something new that has cropped up politically.

    Also, I joined the SNP a few years back but am not an active member, mainly because the meetings were always taken over by people pushing their own agenda, no matter the topic. They were quite aggressive in their put-downs of others they regarded as less informed or not as committed.

    There is a sense of that here recently.

    Ironically, I am pushing my own agenda here. I suppose what I want to say is that with a push for Indy2 coming, isn’t it time to perhaps inject a bit of discipline AND tolerance here to encourage more people to engage?

  276. galamcennalath says:

    Brexit is much much scarier than this!

  277. Nana says:

    Dutch PM on Brexit: UK is a waning country too small to stand alone

    That really is all for now

  278. jezza says:

    Is the badge not a Yellow Ribbon?

    As in ,we will not forget about you regarding the Catalan officials who are in jail in Spain.

    Ian Blackford mentioned them yesterday at PMQs.

    It was the first words out of his mouth.

    As the song went, “Tie a yellow ribbon round the old oak tree”

  279. Fireproofjim says:


    I am not offended by what you write.
    There is just far too much of it to the detriment of the site.
    It’s a bit self indulgent and has become very boring. Try to cut down a bit. Thanks

  280. jezza says:

    A&E figures for England are some of the worst ever recorded.

    84% seen within four hours, with a 95% target number.

    Don’t hear the mass calls for the English health secretary to resign.

  281. Essexexile says:

    With 6 weeks to go I think we’re all agreed it’s too late for a ref, so Scotland’s route to indy is going to need to be more ‘direct’. Which would be out of character for NS to say the least.
    Still, needs must….
    Her announcement of indy intentions is much anticipated.

  282. Stravaiger says:

    Re: Nana’s link above about possible large scale land abandonment, I can think of three times that this has happened in the past, in Europe.

    1. When the Black Death wiped out a large part of the population of Europe.

    2. When the Roman Empire collapsed.

    3. At the end of the Bronze Age when society collapsed, possibly due to climate change.

    We live in interesting times.

  283. Bill McLean says:

    Alison Rowat’s pitiful apology for the dishonest BBC is absolutely awful! What happened to impartiality and that great British value of fairness? Alison may like to work that little lot out! Never been true and is worse now than ever. Can’t believe people can be so stupid – or is it like BBC impartiality, an act!

  284. Capella says:

    @ Nana @ BDTT @ jezza – thx – I’m not clued up on badges. However, I am impressed with Liz Saville Roberts. Every time she speaks she sounds well informed, incisive, calm, measured and radiates integrity. These qualities are in short supply at Westminster, (except for the SNP MPs and one or two other exceptions).

  285. geeo says:

    Ian Murray, the Tories man in Labour, has just stood up and told the commons that the SNP has “Quadrupled Austerity in Scotland” allowing his tory chum, Andrea Loathsome, to join in with a wed bit “SNP BAD” herself.

    I detest Murray more than any tory. He is absolutely everything that is wrong with the labour party in Scotland.

  286. Cactus says:

    Afternoon Fireproofjim, aye note your comments with interest and wonderment, thx.

    All will be revealed one day dude:

    Until then…

    Aye tip my hat to ye.

  287. Dr Jim says:

    Lib Dems have lawyers who say Scotland can’t have a referendum because referendums on self dermination are only for oppressed peoples and Scotland’s not oppressed because we’re *allowed* a vote

    But we’re only allowed a vote on what the oppressors allow us to vote on
    so not allowing Scotland a vote on what it want’s to vote on surely is oppressive is it not

    Lawyers are a funny bunch

  288. yesindyref2 says:

    It might be too late to hold a Ref, but not too late to announce it before Brexit, which might do the job – Sturgeon and co should know whether that counts or not.

  289. Cactus says:

    Does anybuddy know if #fmqs is on today?

    Not appearing on:

  290. Capella says:

    Nana says:
    14 February, 2019 at 11:28 am
    Dutch PM on Brexit: UK is a waning country too small to stand alone

    I think Britain was once described in a Dutch geography book as “a small group of islands off the coast of Holland”.

  291. Dr Jim says:

    Why am I not getting FMQs on my rotten BBC telly

  292. HandandShrimp says:

    I find it hard to believe that the production team couldn’t have cut Orange Billy’s mike while Fiona was talking. It smacks of a pre-agreed strategy between the BBC and Billy. We know they were in cahoots before the show.

    This has utterly blown away any pretence towards trustworthiness. I won’t be watching Billy on the new channel in couple of weeks. In fact I won’t be watching much of anything on the BBC ever.

  293. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill says: 14 February, 2019 at 9:51 am:
    … It is really very simple. A party formed to achieve independence strenthened by 100,000 new members wanting to fight for independence ran an election campaign that didn’t mention independence presumably under the fallacious notion that if we didn’t mention independence our opponents wouldn’t either.”

    Oh! Stop with the very apparent unionist bullshit, Dave. Admittedly you did claim it to be a presumption but the presumption is entirely yours and not that of the SNP.

    You presume quite wrongly and the evidence is there for all to see and the absolute truth is this – By your own admission you are referring to a “GENERAL eLECTION”.

    There is only one purpose for holding a “GENERAL ELECTION.” I quote the Dictionary:-

    “noun: general election; plural noun: general elections.

    The election of representatives to a legislature (in the UK, to the House of Commons) from constituencies throughout the country.”

    You can spout as much utter crap as you like but to presume anything other than that the election campaign was wrongly fought by the SNP is to juxtapose the victims and the criminally corrupt wrongdoing unionist campaign.

    It is, without doubt a criminally intent action for the entire Westminster Establishment and their accounting units in Scotland, aided by the criminally bias SMSM and Westminster funded broadcasters to fight a general eletion as a local election.

    The SNP were factually the only political party in the entire, (so called), United Kingdom to actually fight the General election as a General Election. Everyone else, apparently including you, fought it, or thinks it was correct to fight is as a local election or as a form of independence referendum/independence vote.

    Now let’s all see you attempt to wriggle out of that one, Dave?

    You simply cannot deny that you just accused the only party in the, (so called), United Kingdom to fight a general election and furthermore you here postulate the view the SMP were wrong to be right.

    Like several others who comment here on Wings you are being far too clever and this expose your anti-independence views that are certainly counter productive for the ultimate victory of Scottish Independence.

  294. Lanarkist says:

    Is Holyrood not sitting today, not on radio nor online at Parliament TV?

  295. Nana says:

    No FMQ’s today as Holyrood is in recess

  296. Cactus says:

    Thanks Nana xx

    Fmq’s day off… all the more time for People to Love.


  297. Dr Jim says:

    Damn! I look forward to FMQs on the BBC, and Attenborough of course, the rest of it can turn its toes up and shrivel

  298. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert Peffers “Oh! Stop with the very apparent unionist bullshit, Dave

    Calm down laddie! Dave runs the Forward shop in Dunoon.

  299. Cactus says:

    THIS is what an independent Scotland looks like:

    International subtitles provided.

    You may ascend.

  300. Tom Busza says:

    Oops, sorry Nana. Beat me to it.

  301. ronnie anderson says:

    Dr Jim [
    Dr Jim says:
    14 February, 2019 at 12:14 pm
    Damn! I look forward to FMQs on the BBC, and Attenborough of course, the rest of it can turn its toes up and shrivel ]

    You’ve over medicated lol.

  302. ronnie anderson says:

    Robert Peffers I replied to a post on F/B by DmcH he’s joined in the clamour for Nicola to call Indyref2 .

  303. mountain shadow says:

    An SNP amendment has been chosen by Speaker Bercow to be voted on today. The amendment seeks to extend the EU leave date by 3 months.

    We know the blue Scottish Torys will vote against what about the Red ones?

  304. Legerwood says:

    We know about the recent shenanigans on BBC Question Time thanks in very large part to the Rev and this site.

    But is this happening only on QT editions from Scotland? Why would the production team confine this sort of behaviour just to QT episodes filmed in Scotland?

    Odds on they do it elsewhere too but without any English/Irish/Welsh equivalent to WoS who is there to monitor and identify such behaviour which, I suspect, is far more widespread throughout the QT series than has hitherto been identified.

    Should there be an investigation now of this programme and its production values?

  305. Nana says:

    I’m away to get a job as Town crier! Anybody got a big bell?

    BREAKING: SNP amendment was selected by the Speaker and will be voted on after 5pm. It requires the UK Government to begin immediate negotiations for an extension of Article 50, so we can avoid the Brexit cliff edge.

    For those on twitter

  306. Patrick Roden says:

    Re: BBC,

    I understand that then BBC is claiming that it cut most of Fiona’s response to ‘Black Shirt Billy’ because as she was answering he began to rant about the Alex Salmond case.

    Well BBC, you should have cut the whole exchange, rather than make it look like she would not or could not answer Black Shirt Bills questions.

    I can also assume that since he was ranting while people were answering as well as breaking the law while doing so, you will be able to assure all viewers that he will never be invited onto any BBC shows in future.

    The Staunch Unionist Herald have an online poll for its readers where it asked three questions about the BBC, in response to the storm about Billy being invited onto the show.

    Responses at the time I filled it out:

    1. I will continue to watch BBC QT: 12%
    2. I will now stop watching BBC QT: 50%
    3. I never watch BBC QT: 38%

    And that’s in a Unionist supporting Rag!

  307. Breeks says:

    Remember Wull’s very eloquent post several months ago about Theresa May adopting the Scottish doctrine that the people were sovereign, and Nicola Sturgeon adopting the English doctrine that parliament might overrule the people?

    Well, Theresa May is being taken to court over adopting the Brexit referendum result as a sovereign edict, which it wasn’t….

    ”A strong argument is extant that suggests that Theresa May should not have decided to leave the EU and/or notify the EU of the UK’s intention to do so on the basis of an unlawful mandate. Put differently, the decision still had to be made in line with public law and constitutional principles, regardless of the outcome of the referendum. The silence in the EURA regarding implementation did not give the Prime Minister or Executive free reign to implement the result on the erroneous understanding that it somehow bound Parliament in any way other than politically. Nothing binds Parliament – it is sovereign: the principle of Parliamentary Sovereignty prevents any Parliament binding successive Parliaments.”

    So the U.K. PM is in hot water for observing the Scottish doctrine of popular sovereignty of the people….

    As for the Scottish FM adopting the English doctrine that Parliament might overrule the will of the people… Ssssh! Be quiet Scottish people! You’re not Constitutionally Sovereign until we say you are…

  308. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    ronnie anderson at 12.37

    Not quite, Ronnie. I’m calling for an immediate and continuous independence campaign rather than a date. When the “right time” comes we have to be ready to jump through the open door. The right time doesn’t just happen. You make it happen.

  309. Nana says:

    A little poetry for Valentine’s day
    Listen to Pete Wishart

  310. jfngw says:

    Presumably the judiciary will be interested in the Billy the Bigot Alex Salmond rant, after all he was making these statements in an area exposed to numerous potential jurors. I’m sure the BBC/Mentorn will be passing these potential sub judice comments to the authorities if requested.

  311. Robert Peffers says:

    @Colin Alexander says: 14 February, 2019 at 10:21 am:

    ” … You bang on about Scotland’s popular sovereignty.”

    Oh! Give your unionist crap propaganda a rest Colin. You simply have lost the argument long ago and this bullshit is just more of the same crap.

    I do NOT bang on about Scotland’s Popular sovereignty, Colin. That phrase exposes your Unionist views. There is no such thing as a Scottish Popular Sovereignty – that concept is pure Westminster Establishment propaganda.

    The people of Scotland’s sovereignty is an integral part of the independent Scottish Rule of Law. This has been publicly stated by Scottish Law Lords. The concept of Royal Sovereignty has no place in Scots law. Westminster’s claim to overall sovereignty over both partner kingdoms in the United Kingdom is directly dependent upon the change in the independent English Rule of Law made during the English parliamentarian rebellion against the monarchy of England during the English Glorious Revolution of 1688. It may have escaped your notice but 1688 was before there was a United Kingdom Government in 1707. What is more there has been no legally elected Parliament of England since 1 May 1707.

    Those are irrefutable facts, Colin. Why are you denying them?

    So, why don’t you, as an SNP member, ask the FM to exercise it:

    The FM, SG and SNP do exercise it.

    Go here:-

    Now I’m sure you will attempt to correct me, (even if I am not wrong), but the FM, SNP elected to office MPs, MSPs and MEPs have stated for a considerable time now that, “If Westminster attempts to drag Scotland out of the European Union against the people of Scotland’s wishes that the SG, ” … will hold an Independence Referendum”.

    Now that is not if, when or maybe – it is a direct statement of fact, “WILL HOLD”, no if’s but’s or maybe’s. It has been said by Nicola both in Scotland, Ireland and England. It has been said in the House of Commons by the leader of the SNP faction there. It has been said in Holyrood and in just about every anti-indy publication or broadcast medium in Scotland, England and in many foreign countries and I quote you one such instance within the past few days.

    Don’t you understand basic English, Colin?

    The FM, SG and SNP all say There will be a Scottish Referendum if Westminster attempts to drag Scotland out of the EU AGAINST THE WISHES OF THE PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND. Not If, not but and not perhaps and under the independent Rule of Law of Scotland, (stated in the Treaty of Union as having to remain independent forever), The Treaty of Union can, and will be, negated if Westminster attempt to claim overall sovereignty it never actually has ever been granted by the legally sovereign people of Scotland.

    Colin, unlike you, I am not claiming anything that is not expressly stated in legally binding documents some of which are recognised International Treaties and recognised International Treaties are considered to be the property of the international courts – Like, for example, The Good Friday Agreement.

    I’m talking documented evidence while you are attempting to quote Westminster propaganda – Where is this popular sovereignty documented as law, Colin?

  312. Nana says:


    China cancels trade talks with Britain after warship threat by UK defense secretary – reports

  313. I remember when I used to watch question time, when it was broadcast from cities or constituencies in England.

    If you went to the texts to read what viewers were saying you would read people complaining about not recognising or hearing the accent anyone in the audience from their area.

    So I would say the BBC probably doing this for a very long time

  314. Iain mhor says:

    Re: Land

    The pursuit of land by specifically driving smaller farms out and concentrating agriculture in “superfarms” has been policy for quite some time in England.
    The pursuit of Rentier Capitalism has been an embedded ideology even longer and in Scotland, which is the embodiment of prime real estate, a few hundred souls “own” half of it. It is no unhappy coincidence that land will become ‘abandoned’ to any managed farming, homes and economic development, but certainly not abandoned from portfolios. Acquisitions is the term. It is also no coincidence that the occasional pushes on land reform are met with howls of protest.
    Feudalism dies hard. I wonder if the devolved powers being grabbed by Westminster (Agriculture, Environment and Land use among them) will intersect with Scotland’s ability to continue land reform? I’m sure I have no idea.

  315. Dr Jim says:

    Billy the flute band man is moaning his head off about death threats and abuse from SNP people, I wonder are they pointing out they are SNP people before they death threat and abuse him because I’ve usually found that from the SNP side of things SNP people are highly likely be a tad more intelligent than to advertise who they are before they commit a crime, that’s usually the modus operandi of Billy the flute band man’s crew who actually might be just a little angry at him for making the rest of them look even more stupid than they already are

    So Billy son if you really are being threatened (which I seriously doubt) it’s more likely that you’re going to get slammed by a big drum or have somebody else’s flute stuck up yer Arse because all of our lot are angry with the BBC but we’re laughing and laughing at you, yer a gift of a zoomer for us, if there’s anybody out there thinking of biffing Billy please don’t hit him in the mouth we really really want the guy to keep talking

    Let’s get Billy on the big news, start a campaign

  316. @Capella 14 February, 2019 at 11:07 am

    I agree with you 100%,I believe the recording of the programme should have been paused and the bigot given the choice of either shutting up or being ejected, then Fiona should have been allowed to continue with her answer.

  317. Jeff says:

    From earlier re crowdfunding for Billboards – bring it on. We need them in Dumfries and Galloway, please, and lots of them.

  318. Jeff says:

    I wonder what tune Billy’s flute would play when lodged up his arse?

  319. raineach says:

    I’m sure that’s how God Save the Queen should be played

  320. Clootie says:

    BBC one o’clock news. The fishing company business manager I reviewed was Jimmy Buchan. Is that the same Jimmy Buchan who was twice the Tory candidate for the area?

    If it was then perhaps for he sake of balance the BBC should have mentioned. Anyone know if it was the Tory candidates?

    The BBC line “all fisherman opposed remaining in the EU”. Perhaps they should talk to the West coast shellfish fleet.

  321. Jack Murphy says:

    Patrick Roden began his post at 12:55 pm:

    “Re: BBC,

    I understand that then BBC is claiming that it cut most of Fiona’s response to β€˜Black Shirt Billy’ because as she was answering he began to rant about the Alex Salmond case.

    Well BBC, you should have cut the whole exchange, rather than make it look like she would not or could not answer Black Shirt Bills questions…”

    Here’s the link for folk who don’t know what it’s all about..
    Pals at work put me on to it.

  322. mike cassidy says:

    And perhaps Mitchell’s Salmond rant was prearranged

    Thereby giving them the excuse to make the cut.

    Just a thought!

  323. Lenny Hartley says:

    Clootie yes that was Jimmy Buchan the failed Tory candidate, they did interview a lady from Clyde Fishing assoc but i was not listening so dont know what she said.

  324. Robert Kerr says:

    “From Billy’s arse came the strangest of noise,,,, the old orange flute playing “the protestant boys””

  325. orri says:

    Billy the Flute moaning about intimidation from followers of the majority party in Scotland. My ironometer just blew a fuse.

  326. Robert Peffers says:

    @Essexexile says: 14 February, 2019 at 11:39 am@

    ” … With 6 weeks to go I think we’re all agreed it’s too late for a ref,”

    Methinks you presume too much.

    … so Scotland’s route to indy is going to need to be more β€˜direct’. Which would be out of character for NS to say the least.”

    Rubbish! In the first place Nicola, the SG at Holyrood and the SNP group at Westminster have been very specific, “If Westminster attempts to drag Scotland out of the EU against the wishes, (of the legally sovereign), people of Scotland there WILL be an independence Referendum. Not if, not but. “Will be”.

    Not only that but it is clear that as the United Kingdom remains legally a two partner KINGDOM and nowhere has it ever been legally a unified country of four, still individual countries.

    Even less so a, “four country”, country with only England being run directly by Westminster and thus devolving English rule to three dominion countries.

    ” … Still, needs must….”

    Who says so?

    Her announcement of indy intentions is much anticipated.

    How more explicitly could the FM be, Essexexile?

    What part of, “If Westminster attempts to drag Scotland out of the EU against the people of Scotland’s Expressed will there will be an independence referendum”, is it that you do not understand?

    So there it is – Brexit is called and there will be an independence referendum and, if the legally sovereign people of Scotland vote for independence the Kingdom of Scotland ends the United Kingdom by revoking the breached bipartite Treaty of Union. A Treaty of Union that is, like the Good Friday Agreement, An international treaty. As such it automatically falls to the International courts to decide upon.

    In the Treaty of Union it states that the only two signatory kingdom partners legal systems must remain forever independent to each other. (they are basically irreconcilable because of their different sovereignty laws).

    English Kingdom Law states that the Queen of the Kingdom of England is legally sovereign but must legally delegate her sovereignty to THE Parliament of England. The Kingdom of Scotland law states that neither the monarch nor the parliament are sovereign as the people are.

    The problem Westminster faces is that Westminster’s fast time as the Parliament of England was on 30 April — 1707.

    Westminster has not been the legal parliament of England since 1 May 1707. It not only runs in practice as the de facto parliament of England but claims to be both the United Kingdom Parliament but also claims to be the parliament of Britain.

    Got it now?

    It is legally the United Kingdom Parliament. Thus when one of the only two signatory kingdoms withdraws from the union both, equally sovereign kingdoms, revert to, “The Status Quo Ante”, as what they were on 30th April 1707 and there is no, elected as such, parliament of the Kingdom of England. Westminster is NOT the continued parliament of the Kingdom of England.

  327. Thepnr says:


    I didn’t see the news but I’d guess it is the same Jimmy Buchan who two weeks ago was reported :

    “Some firms could go bust, according to Jimmy Buchan, chief executive of processors’ group the Scottish Seafood Association.”

    But they have concerns about what a no-deal Brexit could mean for the United Kingdom’s fish exports which, including processed fish, are worth around 1.9 billion pounds a year.

    β€œMy market for posh prawns is not the UK,” said Buchan, who is worried about routes to the French market.

    β€œI do feel that at this late stage we don’t know enough about planning. Unless someone puts on a ferry route or guarantees the French will not impede the free flow of traffic, what are we supposed to do?”


    His mate Bertie Armstrong also got in on the act, he now thinks that we might need to catch less fish if we cant export them and that the smaller fishermen might need baling out with public cash because of Brexit:

    The Scottish Fishermen’s Federation (SFF) said temporary disruption is worth it if it means Britain can quickly rid itself of EU fishing rules.

    β€œWe are less scared than other industries,” said Bertie Armstrong, the SFF’s chief executive.

    β€œThe first solution is to temporarily fish less. You don’t want to land it ashore for it to rot or not go anywhere,” he said.

    β€œSecondly there are some smaller outfits running small boats in remote places which may indeed need some (financial) help to survive that period before new markets are opened.”

    The scale of such support from the public coffers is likely to depend on the duration of any hit to the industry.

    Why wasn’t this news all over the front pages of the Scottish papers two weeks ago? For the same reason it wasn’t on BBC or STV I’d guess.

  328. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dr Jim says: 14 February, 2019 at 12:02 pm:

    ” … Lawyers are a funny bunch.”

    So why are we not all laughing, Dr Jim.

  329. Davy S says:

    Love the billboards idea. Directing soft yes/noers to news they will not hear or see in the msm should pay great dividends. Actually, given last night’s pathetic attempt by SLAB to worry those with genuine need for care and demoralise the SNHS, by using a bunch of actors, maybe next SNP ppb should concentrate on britnat media bias and the need to look elsewhere to allow a balanced judgement to be made. Wow, there are so many examples maybe we will need a documentary series but I guess that will have to wait a few years.

  330. Maria F says:

    Breeks says:
    14 February, 2019 at 12:57 pm

    Very interesting article, but left me wanting more.

    “Nothing binds Parliament – it is sovereign: the principle of Parliamentary Sovereignty prevents any Parliament binding successive Parliaments.”

    This assertion brings a few problems of its own:

    If parliament is sovereign, Westminster is sovereign but so is Holyrood, which is the parliament of Scotland, elected 100% by the people of Scotland and that operates under Scots law. Please lets note that the elections for the UK parliament are totally separate from the Holyrood elections and when the UK parliament is dissolved, Holyrood is not, so as a matter of fact, they are independent parliaments. Holyrood is not bound to a particular UK Parliament. We have the clear example of May calling elections in 2017. This did not affect at all HOlyrood. It continued with is legislature.

    Therefore, in the event the principle of Parliamentary sovereignty was being forced over Scotland, as this principle prevents any Parliament binding other parliaments, then by logic, the ruling of the Supreme court with regards to the Continuity bill is unlawful because Westminster cannot bind Holyrood’s bill nor any other bills passed in Holyrood. Westminster, a separate parliament, cannot bind anything Holyrood does.

    Westminster and Holyrood are separate parliaments and elected by different electorates (the electorate for Holyrood is not the same than for UK parliament) following different rules and at different times. You cannot use one to bind the other.

    The same happens with brexit. Holyrood voted against brexit by an overwhelming majority. Westminster, another parliament, voted differently but cannot bind Holyrood’s vote. If the principle of parliamentary sovereignty is applied to Scotland too, then the actions of Theresa May triggering A50, stealing 24 powers from Holyrood and declaring, retrospectively, unlawful a part of our Continuity bill are simply unlawful because she used the UK parliament to bind a separate parliament: Holyrood.

    But we know that the principle of “parliamentary sovereignty” only applies to English law, not Scots law. We are also aware of our Claim of Right. So if Parliament is not sovereign for Scotland, the actions of the UK gov and Uk parliament towards Scotland have been unlawful too.

    In other words, it seems to me that no matter if Parliament is Sovereign or if its is not, the UK gov and the UK parliament went ultra vires the minute they forced A50 without the mandate and consent of the people of Scotland and forced its will over the separate Parliament of Holyrood.

    The article says:
    “is a lawful, free and fair vote one of the constitutional requirements of the UK to leave the EU?”

    Besides the rationale exposed in the article regarding breaking electoral law, this question brings a series of other questions with regards to Scotland:
    1. lawful: was it lawful? No, it wasn’t, because Scotland never gave consent for such a referendum to take place. In other words, it was forced upon us.

    2. free: was it really free? No, it wasn’t. The sections of the population that had the biggest stake on the result were purposely left out of the vote: the EU citizens in the UK, the ex-pats in the EU and the 16-18 year old. Let’s remember here that at least the EU citizens and the 16-18 year olds are part of the electorate of the Parliament of Scotland. If parliament is sovereign, Holyrood is as sovereign as Westminster is for the matters it deals with. In the matter of the decision of Scotland to leave the eU or not, you can argue that it is in fact Holyrood, because it is elected 100% by the people of Scotland, who should be establishing the rules of who in Scotland and who should not vote in such referendum.

    3. fair: Was it fair? No, it wasn’t. Scotland was not given a properly democratic vote, but rather was forced to vote as England colony.

    I am glad this EU ref is being challenged. I just wish it was challenged also from the perspective of Scotland and from the perspective that the violation of our Claim of Right, the violation of the Treaty of Union and the violation of the only status quo the people of Scotland agreed for the union to continue on in 2014 without Scotland’s consent made the triggering of A50 and any subsequent actions of the UK gov and UK parliament in the name of brexit, unlawful.

  331. Pentlander says:

    Thought for today:
    β€œ If a nation values anything more than freedom, it will lose its freedom; and the irony of it is that if it is comfort or money that it values more, it will lose that too.
    W Somerset Maugham

  332. Petra says:

    @ Nana at 1:09pm ….. “China pulling out of trade talks.”

    Ha ha ha. Big galoot Williamson has just stymied another trade deal with one of the biggest markets in the world. Fox isn’t having much luck either. Williamson the fire salesman, come Minister of Defence, should have stuck to selling fire surrounds. If this wasn’t so serious it would be hilarious. Westminster couldn’t run a local fete without ending up owing money and they’ve got the cheek to complain about Holyrood.


    ThePnr at 2:25pm ……..

    “We are less scared than other industries”, said Bertie Armstrong. Right enough Bertie, so strange that BBC Scotland seem loathe to interview them, the other industries, no doubt because the Scottish Tories have been pretending to support the fishing industry.

    They, BBC, were in Aberdeen this morning at the fish market where they were saying that 80% of their catch went to the EU. Bertie must have forgotten to tell them that if they voted for Brexit they may have to limit their quotas if not we’d witness rotten fish piling up. When this all backfires on them will Buchan and Armstrong have to do a runner (in case they get strung up) leaving the Scottish Government to mitigate the loss?

  333. Colin Alexander says:

    Dave McEwan Hill

    I like what you’ve been saying recently.

    Constructive criticism of SNP strategy is more helpful than dishonest flattery.

    Well done.

  334. Essexexile says:

    Mr Peffers @14.25
    Thanks for the reply. A well argued case you make.
    There seem to be quite a lot of challengeable points in the route to indy you give. In your opinion, how long is the whole thing likely to get tied up in the legal system, bearing in mind the establishment will challenge every single detail of any attempt Scotland makes to become independent.
    As we’ve seen over and over in the last few years, apparently simple processes in theory become very complex once they are being played out for real.

  335. winifred mccartney says:

    Surely if we have learned anything since indy its not to trust the MSM and the BBC – the clue is in the name British ie Unionist broadcasting corporation or as I call it the blatantly biased and corrupt corporation and mouthpiece of the uk govt.

    It would have been easy for any sound engineer to cut out orange mans rant and allowed us to hear Fiona Hyslop or take out the whole section and remove him if his behaviour was abusive towards FH but that would not have made good TV-the bbc can never again say it is impartial because they just make themselves out to be liars as well as everything else. Every politics show has an uneven panel wether you are talking about Brexit or Indy 4:1 for indy on QT is the norm and it is not fair or balanced and the audiences in Dundee and Kilmarnock were neither fair nor balanced.

  336. yesindyref2 says:

    Kind of OT
    Got an email from someone wanting to know if I was interested selling something, checked out website and facebook and that was OK, just seemed to me to be Indy supporters somehow.

    Arranged for him to visit and he duly turned up with a YES sticker on his car, and even an SNP one. I think it’s something in the language used, maybe even the positive attitude to Scotland and Scottish products. I’ve found the same before as well, in person. You can kind of guess.

  337. CameronB Brodie says:

    re. Gavin Williamson and the cancellation of planned trade talks with the Chinese Vice Premier. Tories are bad, mk. Neo-liberalism is bad, mk.


    The Arc of Neoliberalism
    prepared for the Annual Review of Sociology

    Theorising feminist foreign policy

  338. yesindyref2 says:

    @Essexexile “bearing in mind the establishment will challenge every single detail of any attempt Scotland makes to become independent

    Big presumption there, “bearing in mind” that I disagree with you. There will be negotations of course, but not obstruction.

  339. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I do not normally bother reading the deranged writings of Brian Monteith in The Hootsmon, but today, since the headline was suggesting Nicola Sutrgeon’s jaiket was on a shoogly nail, I held my nose and weighed-in.

    Now, we all on here now, Monteith is an erse-hole. And we all know what comes out of erse-holes. But, boy, even by his low standards, this was poor stuff.

    When you read what he wrote, and him supposedly one of the leading thinkers in the Conservative and Unionist Party (North British branch) – and no tittering at the back there at the notion of a Tory thinker.

    Them British Nationalists really are shiting themselves at the thought of Indyref2 and losing their Scottish milch cow.

  340. Essexexile says:

    I’m not trying to be inflammatory here but, really!!!?
    The same establishment that has overruled Holyrood on anything it likes and repeatedly ignored Scotland’s wishes to be involved in negotiating its own future.
    You honestly think that establishment is just going to say ‘ Oh, well if you guys want to leave the Union and take your resources with you, who are we to try and stop you?’
    There’s a real issue here, somewhere between hope and naivety. Playing these things out in on line forums with no opposition gives a massively false sense of security imo.
    I reckon Corbyn has experienced the same thing in recent years. After decades of obscurity, in a small room of people who all agree with him he’s bewildered when his brand of politics makes little impact in the real world.
    I think we should concentrate less on theoretical clean breaks from the Union and more on the acceptable cost of independence. Because there will be a price to pay to an increasingly desperate partner for Scotland’s freedom.

  341. Cubby says:


    Essexexile punting the Britnat line that as Brexit is a nightmare independence will be more of the same.

  342. Proud Cybernat says:

    Roses are red,
    Violets are blue,
    Dohar don’t get the Flintsones,
    But Abu Dhabi do.

  343. Scott says:

    RE Fishing both Buchan and Armstrong are Tories and this quote made me laugh.

    Scottish fishermen plan to reduce their catches if Britain exits the European Union on March 29 without a transition deal, in order to avoid potential losses, industry officials said.

    Knowing some fishermen no way will they cut their catches.

  344. Robert Peffers says:

    @yesindyref2 says: 14 February, 2019 at 12:03 pm:

    ” … It might be too late to hold a Ref, but not too late to announce it before Brexit, which might do the job – Sturgeon and co should know whether that counts or not.”

    Now far from it for me to even dream about outguessing the FM but what if the whole concept of holding a referendum on Scottish Independence is just the FM’s way of diverting the unionists from what she really has got planned?

    I can think of more than one way of gaining independence by legal means that uses actual existing legal agreements and laws that fit with reality and not with perceptions of reality that are simply nothing more than the long established propaganda emanating from Westminster.

    I just highlighted one such bit of Westminster propaganda used upthread by Colin Alexander. The long established notion that just does not hold water promulgated by Westminster for centuries. i.e. The notion that the actual long established and provable legal tenet of The Scottish People’s legal sovereignty is merely, “a popular held belief”.

    If it were a popular, but non-exixtent belief, then there are several well proven parts of Scots law that couldn’t stand up to legal examination if challenged in a court of law.

    There is no, English style, law of trespass under Scots law and there are several well documented cases where the sovereignty of the people is upheld. Way back in the 1950 or 60s Lord Roseberry tried to prevent people walking through his South Queensferry Estate between Cramond Village and Queensferry. The case headlined in both the Scotsman and Evening News for some weeks. It ended with the aristocrat defeated in court and having to pay his own and the defendants massive costs.

    Mind you he did win damages from the defendants for damage caused to the estate – the goodly some of 1 penny, (pre-decimal). The judgement was that the people of Scotland have legal right to roam – except in close proximity to any dwelling.

    Being legally sovereign the people own Scotland and cannot trespass on what they own. Trespass is an offence but only on the grounds of the safety of the individual – as on rail lines or MOD ranges.

    The same law was used to thwart Dame Ann Heron Gloag DBE (nΓ©e Souter), from banning people from her Perthshire Estate. The court ruled she could only prevent access to the dwelling and attached paddocks. Not to Mention Prince Charles who attempted to prevent access to the Queen’s Royal Estate of Balmoral.

    Another indicator is that, unlike in The Kingdom of England, no civilian person can clamp, or tow away a vehicle parked on private land and demand a fine or payment to release it back to the owners. Furthermore, leading Scottish Law Officials have stated that the concept of Royal or state sovereignty is unknown under Scots law.

    In The English Kingdom the concept that the Monarch of England is sovereign was altered during the English Glorious Revolution, (1688), that did not involve the still independent Kingdom of Scotland. On deposing their monarch and inviting in King Billy & Queen Mary English law forced the royals to delegate their sovereignty to the, still independent, Parliament of England.

    It cannot, without the express agreement of the sovereign people of Scotland, be retrospectively applied to Scotland on both the grounds that Westminster became the United Kingdom Government in 1707 – not the continued Parliament of England.

    Not only that but the Treaty of Union itself states that the two kingdoms legal systems must always remain independent and Westminster is not the legal parliament of England since 1707.

    All it needs is for the EU to rule that The UK is a two partner Kingdom and Scotland is the successor member state and for Nicola to State the Union is over and it is all over bar the Westminster shouts of, It’s a foul Ref and Theresa to be sent off for dissent.

  345. yesindyref2 says:

    During the Referendum campaign the “establishment” will throw everything in, pots, pans, the kitchen sink as well as the usual BBC and complicit media.

    After a YES vote it will be very different. And Alex Salmond would agree with that.

    Apparently so. Brexit {is not equal to} Scottish Independence. But Unionists are happy to punt that line for all its worth. “Oh, it will be SO difficult”. Garbage.

  346. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert Peffers
    Shhhh, don’t tell them your name Peffers πŸ™‚

    Yes, there are more than one ways of skinning a cat oops getting Independence.

  347. Proud Cybernat says:

    Brexit {is not equal to} Scottish Independence. But Unionists are happy to punt that line for all its worth. β€œOh, it will be SO difficult”.

    It’s like thinking that you should just stay with the abusive partner who’s been beating the living crap out of you since your wedding day. What’s wrong with these people FFS?

    It might be a hard thing to do but it’s absolutely the right thing to do – in ANY abusive relationship.

  348. yesindyref2 says:

    @Proud Cybernat
    I think the negotations will go quite smoothly in broad principles, and precise details as long as there’s broad agreement, can continue for years after Independence Day.

    I also personally think it can happen a lot quicker than 18 months.

    The key thing is it’s one on one, very much unlike Brexit.

  349. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Scott @ 3:57,

    In normal times, your supposition would be plausible, but what even the deluded fishing mentalists of the NE are slowly coming to realise is that one of the immmediate consequences of Brexit is that they won’t have a functional market for their catches. Much of the fish will rot unsold.

    The big producers expect they will have the resources to weather the storm, but the small fishers will go bust and get swallowed up. “For whosoever hath, to him will be given”, as the Bible has it (if in a different context entirely).

    Disaster capitalism is what “taking control” is all about, doncha know?

  350. Robert Peffers says:

    @yesindyref2 says: 14 February, 2019 at 12:15 pm:

    ” … Calm down laddie! Dave runs the Forward shop in Dunoon.”

    First of all It takes a lot more than politics to get me other than calm. Secondly it doesn’t matter if Dave runs in the Grande National without a horse. It doesn’t mean his points are valid. To validate views requires that there is either proof positive or a logical argument.

    You don’t win a debate, or rather you shouldn’t win a debate, if you just state something without proof or without logic.

    That’s the famous Westminster Gambit of, “Just because we say so”, or even often simply, “Just because”. That’s why we all love Rev Stu. He never makes an argument without a proof and a logical conclusion.

    It is also why Rev Stu has so many media and politician target hits. Both lots leave a lot to be desired. Look at the difference between Theresa and Nicola. Nicola calmly states her case logically and if needed she proves it. Theresa makes a statement and defies the audience to challenge it with a, “because I say so”, statement as if it were fact.

  351. Golfnut says:

    @ RP and Yesindyref2

    It’s understandable I think that so many people don’t understand how the Union should work. Hundreds of years of Westminster not being held to account has bred the idea that it is untouchable.

    The reality of course is somewhat different, the UK gov, the civil service, security services, the military and organizations such as the bbc etc are all subject to Scots law whether they are based in Scotland or not.

    I think Westminster knows full well its limitations.

  352. gus1940 says:

    It’s QT night again folks.

    Another opportunity to play Spot The Plant(s).

    I see Rees Mogg is on the panel so no doubt his fan club will be present in force.

  353. Petra says:

    @ yesindyref2 at 3:28pm …….”You can kind of guess.”

    I thought so too yesindyref2 until earlier today. I’ve lived in this area for 18 years now and know the neighbours fairly well. There’s a couple who are very outgoing, intelligent and heavily involved in the community. I’ve never discussed politics with them (surprise, surprise, lol), but reckoned that they were Tories. I walked up the hill past their house today (dead end) and low and behold the Saltire was flying high. YES!!!


    @ Proud Cybernat at 4:26pm …. “Abusive marital relationship.”

    I reckon it’s more like a marriage from the 19th Century PC, whereby the poor fly man marries the rich heiress, doesn’t really love her, beats her up, steals and squanders her fortune and gets custody of the kids. There was nowhere to turn for help for many women who found themselves in that hellish position.. We’ve got choices.

  354. CameronB Brodie says:

    IMHO, Scotland’s lack of political agency, at a time when democracy and universal rights are the norm, is a serious cause for concern re. the mental health of the nation. Remember, only about 20% of us are yoons. It is not rational to be led by neurotic narcissists and cultists. Contemporary British nationalism is an expansionist form of English nationalism, simples.

    Understanding the Dynamics of Abusive Relationships
    Kiss me, kill me, kiss me again β€” the dynamics of abusive relationships.

    An abuser is morbidly insecure. S/he (yes, potentially she) has little sense of his/her own social value and makes an effort to gain or regain some semblance of that value through domination and control. The fear that feeds this insecurity has two fronts: fear of not being lovable, and fear of appearing weak. The paradox here is that the abuser is, in fact, weak, which is why s/he abuses in the first place β€” to maintain a sense of control. The perceived inconsistency on the part of the abuser by the victim is that the victim is not submitting to the abuser’s domination.

    The victim is also morbidly insecure, and for surprisingly similar reasons. S/he also has little sense of his/her own social value, but makes an effort to establish that value by losing him/herself to the demand for submission. The fear that feeds this insecurity is also about not being lovable or loved, and there is a willingness to accept the inconsistency of the abuser’s attention for the sake of being loved.

    The pathological need to control on the part of the abuser and the pathological need for attention on the part of the victim is a match made in heaven. We are all just a bunch of neurotic habits that tend to find a fit with our opposite to create a psychosocial balance. Abusive relationships are one of the most extreme cases of this dynamic.

  355. CameronB Brodie says:

    I look forward to the day when a Scottish franchise of postcolonial studies emerges, as that will only happen following independence.

    Irish Cultural Studies and Postcolonial Theory

    Postcolonialism, feminism and development: intersections and dilemmas

    Feminism, Postcolonial Legal Theory and Transitional Justice: A Critique of Current Trends,Feminism,_Postcolonial_Legal_Theory_and_Transitional_Justice,_A_Critique_of_Current_Trends.docx

  356. Bill McLean says:

    Great to read these threads and the variety of opinions therein. I’m always fascinated at the number of people who maintain that there are a number of ways of Scotland achieving its rightful independence. If this is the case, and I don’t know enough to argue, why didn’t Alex do it instead of holding a referendum?

  357. Essexexile says:

    Cubby @3.55pm
    Not even remotely what I was saying.
    But when did your bizarre interpretation of the world around you ever allow you to actually read what somebody says eh?
    Like the knuckle draggers who blame all their problems on immigrants, without understanding the word, your answer to everything is Britnat just because it makes a complex situation digestible for your little brain to understand.
    Cubby is Billy Mitchell with a Yes badge.

  358. Colin Alexander says:

    Robert Peffers

    Popular sovereignty: Scottish /UK constitutional law:

    Claim of Right 1689

    Re-affirmed Claim of Right 1989

  359. Cubby says:


    More personal abuse. Ignoring the site owners warning about personal abuse for a second time. Your words speak for themselves.

    Phoney independence supporter. Only Britnats don’t like the term Britnat.

  360. t42 says:

    Indy campaigns around the world today:
    In a political show trial prosecutors call holding a Catalan referendum without permission a crime “like sexual rape”.
    Another prosecutor says it was “a waste of taxpayers money”, despite no taxpayers money actually paying for it.
    Another prosecutor blamed the violent scenes on “human barricades throwing themselves towards police truncheons.”

    Kurdish Independence supporter Leyla Guven MP, reaches day 99 of her hunger strike and refuses hospital treatment.
    People peacefully marching in honor of Leyla are beaten by Turkish police truncheons.

  361. Cubby says:

    Bill McLean@6.26pm

    It is SNP policy to obtain independence through a referendum. That does not mean of course that there are not other possible ways. SNP policy is set by the members not the leader (Salmond).

  362. Essexexile says:

    So says the man who makes up childish abusive nicknames for fellow commenters.
    One of the many reasons I look forward to independence is that I can stop being on the same side of a debate as you.
    Cubby is Billy Mitchell with a Yes badge.

  363. yesindyref2 says:

    What you said in your posting “I think we should concentrate less on theoretical clean breaks from the Union and more on the acceptable cost of independence. Because there will be a price to pay to an increasingly desperate partner for Scotland’s freedom.

    is the biggest stinky pile of hogwash you’ll ever see outside of a pig farm.

  364. Cubby says:


    If you keep posting comments that a British Nationalist would post then why be surprised if you are thought to be a Britnat.

    You can post all your abusive comments that you want it won’t change the fact that you post Britnat comments. It may be a debate to you but to me it is far far more important.

    Your comments stink of Britnattery.

  365. Essexexile says:

    Ok, a difference of opinion, fair enough.
    But, there is a really glaring dichotomy often repeated on these pages. On the one hand a strong belief that the establishment will use every twist and turn (legal shenanigans, dark money, blah blah…) to retain the status quo, and on the other hand a strange belief that the word ‘sovereignty’ will somehow dispel all that heinous shit (film ref – anyone?).
    One comment it’s a nasty fist fight to the death, the next it’s a walk in the park.
    Don’t believe for a second that Scotland’s route to indy will be any easier than it has been for the last four years. It will be a mix of good days and bad days and a whole load of stuff none of us will have seen coming. That’s what happens in the real world. I’m sure everyone here has the stomach for it. But what about the undecideds who are sick of politics already. That’s going to be a hard sell.

  366. CameronB Brodie says:

    Bill McLean
    Just a guess but even legal means to self-determination would still require ratification by the public. Circumstances have not supported such an approach, until now.

  367. Bill McLean says:

    Cameron & Cubby – thanks for response. Picture still not clear then! If we are sovereign and the majority want independence surely we just declare it! YES/NO. It seems that many believe that Westminster have the whip hand if that is the case then we are not in a union and Scots are not sovereign. Why over the years has no one, except Robert, attempted to clear this up for the punters? Ian Blackford often says that Scotland will stay in EU/CU/single market, implying that there is some action Scotland could take without a referendum.

  368. Cubby says:


    Here’s another dichotomy for you.

    Cubby = independence supporter and Essexexile = Britnat concern troll.

  369. Essexexile says:

    Or Essexexile = soft Yes supporter with an understandable distaste for the extremists on his side of the debate.
    Cubby = Billy Mitchell with a YES badge.

  370. Bit late in the day for my contribution. Only just got home.

    There was a great discussion about QT on the John Beattie show over lunchtime.

    Basic decision was that if the BBC had to lose Fiona Hyslop’s answer because Billy was ranting about Alex Salmond over the top, then they should have lost the question as well.

    All AGREED that it was a poor editorial decision and one that allows an allegation of political bias against the BBC – and this on a BBC programme!!!
    PLUS the amazing statistic that since 2000 the BBC has broadcast 8% of QT shows from Scotland…. let that sink in …. in 18 years only 8% of the programmes have been from Scotland.

    Apparently, if you take out theC salary i.e. Dimbleby/Bruce the remaining 70% of the budget goes towards the programme.

    Because this programme travels around the country and rarely broadcasts from London, it classes as a Regional programme and as such it can be allocated a ‘Regional’ home base, in this case Scotland so that it counts towards proving that a required % of BBC programmes are made outside London.
    QT is made in Scotland so it is funded by the money provided for BBC Scotland yet ONLY 8% of the shows have been made in Scotland in the last 18 years.

    I quote from the broadcast:

    “Something stinks at the BBC”

    BBC says he applied, Billy says he was invited onto the programme – who do we believe?

  371. …take out the Chairman’s salary – Dimbleby/Bruce….


  372. Cubby says:

    Essexexile @9.26pm

    Heard all the insults from Britnats like you plenty of times. Water off a ducks back. No face paint ( that’s a popular one from Britnats) no yes badge either.

    Soft yes – ha ha. I have a distaste for phoney independence supporters who post nothing but Britnat concern troll postings. Dr Doom right enough.

    Nothing extreme about me. It’s normal for a country to be independent. What is extreme is people posing as something they are not for maelovent reasons.

  373. Thepnr says:

    @Meg merrilees

    As Scotland has 8.9% of the UK population, having 8% of shows being made here does sound about right to me.

  374. yesindyref2 says:

    OT kind of
    I think Billy Mitchell is becoming a bit of a hero of the Indy Movement πŸ™‚

    He’s taking on the whole BBC single-handed – and winning.

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