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Wings Over Scotland

A Pyrrhic Suicide

Posted on January 29, 2019 by

One thing that pretty much everyone agrees on is that an independent Scotland, like almost every nation on Earth, would face financial challenges. Like almost every nation on Earth, it would probably have to run a deficit. And the main reason for that is the decades of stupendous mismanagement of its oil resources by Westminster.

Had the UK managed North Sea Oil as well as Norway handled a very similar amount in the same period, it would be currently sitting on a sovereign wealth fund in the region of £750 billion, generating many billions of pounds in investment earnings in most years – in 2017 alone Norway’s fund returned a staggering £100 billion, over three times the Scottish Government’s entire annual budget.

Even with Scotland sharing that money with the entire UK, that would have meant around £9bn extra in Holyrood’s coffers for a single year – by coincidence roughly the size of the so-called “fiscal transfer” that Unionists insist is a gift from the generous UK, even though it’s actually a loan Scotland has to pay back – and a rainy-day fund of close to £70 billion for years when times were bad.

(For perspective on how much £9bn a year is, the most optimistic estimate of the extra money that would be raised by hiking top-rate income tax to 50p is about £0.1bn.)

All of that, of course, is now spilt milk. But there are decades of oil left in the North Sea yet, with huge new finds still being made, and an independent Scotland would have the opportunity to show that it could do a much better job of shepherding its precious wealth, and in particular hopefully investing it in harvesting the nation’s near-limitless potential for clean renewable energy.

And yet there are those who would throw it all away for an empty gesture.

Let’s be clear: this site does not for a moment dispute the reality of man-made climate change or its potentially disastrous consequences for life on the planet. But what’s even more unarguable is that Scotland can’t do anything meaningful about it.

The UK doesn’t even make the top 20 of the world’s oil-producing nations. It sneaks in at No.21, pumping out a little over 1% of global oil production, the large bulk of which comes from Scotland.

If all those numbers are just a blur and you’d prefer something more visual, here’s a map showing the world’s oil producers resized to match their remaining reserves:

Were Scotland to become independent tomorrow and announce an immediate ban on oil extraction, the planet would still be producing and burning 99% of the oil it is now. Climate scientists suggest we need to cut fossil-fuel emissions by almost half in the next decade or thereabouts, so 1% is a total waste of time.

It would take a complete stop by the USA and Russia and Saudia Arabia and Iraq and Iran to achieve a reduction of half, and readers, we don’t think we’re revealing any big spoilers when we say that just ain’t happening. (If it does, by all means get back to us.)

In the meantime, Scotland would be depriving itself of potentially billions of pounds of desperately-needed revenue every year – money which could not only be invested in renewables and thereby reduce fossil emissions in a profitable way, but also help to pay for all the positive social spending that the people advocating leaving oil in the ground constantly demand but which there currently simply aren’t the funds for.

(These are also, incidentally, all of the same people who would demand the immediate removal of Trident from Scottish waters on independence rather than temporarily renting out Faslane while the rUK made alternative arrangements for it, depriving the economy of potentially billions more pounds every year and once more putting empty, meaningless ideological gestures ahead of actually fighting poverty and inequality.)

We’ll be honest with you, readers: we struggle to understand why people seeking independence for Scotland would want to tie lead weights around its neck the moment it was achieved. It’s a level of masochistic, Calvinist self-denial that the most pious Wee Free minister in the Hebrides would look on with sanctimonious approval.

The point of independence is to be able to do things differently and better. But you can’t do that with both your hands tied behind your back and your wallet in a locked cupboard. If we’re to get voters to believe the (entirely true) assertion that a well-run independent Scotland would be in rude economic health, it’s probably best not to tell them that we’d start by sawing our own legs off.

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  1. 29 01 19 19:56

    A Pyrrhic Suicide | speymouth

248 to “A Pyrrhic Suicide”

  1. K1 says:

    Yes, ideology from whatever stream of political thinking you resonate with even in Scotland, does seem to have a nasty habit of trumping practical and realistic thinking about our future.

    Anyone could be forgiven for thinking that people really don’t want independence except for the ‘brand’ they ‘agree’ with.

    Tired of all this shite…so tired of it.

  2. alexicon says:

    Even in these days.

    Glengorm the biggest UK gas find since Culzean and the Culzean hasn’t even
    started producing yet.

    Anger doesn’t even discribe how I feel about hardcore unionist frittering away
    our resources.
    As for Ian wood ?

  3. Artyhetty says:

    Yep, well said Stuart. I had a couple friends say, in 2014, re Scotland’s oil making Scotland a wee bit richer if independent, ‘ah but it’s dirty stuff’.

    So it’s dirty if an independent Scotland were to use the revenues, but I don’t recall these people having chained themselves to an oil ship anytime to stop BP and others, taking the oil away from Scotland for the £billions of revenues to keep rUK afloat.

    Scotland’s oil has been stolen and the revenues squandered by the Britnats at WM. They kept Scotland poor and begging at the same time.

    I was only just reading this in fact. Interesting indeed.
    Hope it’s OK to post it here.

  4. Bill Hume says:

    Ah, but dear old ‘Green Harvey’ would object.

  5. alexicon says:

    Should have said giving away our resources.

  6. robin says:

    yeah but no but yeah but no
    think of all the extra jobs we would be creating in the horse and cart industries
    you just not seeing the bigger picture (sic)

  7. Heaver says:

    Independence first. We will fix all the rest of the many things that need to be fixed after we have regained sovereignty.

  8. Arbroath1320 says:

    I think you’ve been hitting the bottle a wee bit early there Stu haven’t you? 😉

    I mean we all know that come the independence referendum, whenever that may happen, we all know that Scotland’s oil will quite naturally have run out completely. Well that will be the case put forward by Feartie’s party and Feartie’s little helpers (a.k.a. Labour party) 😀

  9. Dr Jim says:

    Thoat yeez wur aw fur gawn green, noo yeez jist want tae get the British oil like yeez huv always waantit

    That’s slightly paraphrased but I read that today on Twitter from a headcase Britnat who five minutes ago was claiming Scotland had no oil and it was worthless anyway and it wasn’t ours in the first place

    Three arguments opposing himself in one when all he needed to say was *No Surrender*, and that’s what we’re dealing with, not reasoned discussion with humans, these people are a sub species of something crawly

  10. Monica Worley says:

    I read the other day that due to the quality of Scotland’s oil, much (most?) of it wasn’t used for fuel but was instead used for manufacturing things like plastics…

  11. Ghillie says:

    Frankly my dear, I don’t give a flying fuck.

    As soon as Scotland takes Independence, SCOTLAND will decide.

    And everything will, at that point be taken into consideration and decided by THE PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND.

    THAT is when we, the people of Scotland, not some other neighbouring land that helped themselves to the resourses of other’s as is their wont, will decide how to use this country’s resourses.

    Big shock for the deceased empire of the british state.

  12. Confused says:

    we need to start a new game – whenever some twat comes out with some cringey, whiney, eeyore-spying-heffalumps, dreary bullshit which lacks logic or is in contradiction …


    Line 30, inside the second graphic. I win.

    Mike Small, eh? I feel that somewhere, some secondary school is missing a Modern Studies teacher.

  13. Garrion says:

    Biggest risk to achieving independence, IMO, is the conflation of “independence” with “whatever I want to happen”. I’m expecting the usual suspects to crawl out of the woodwork to be unwitting (or witting) opportunists, spanner throwers and noise merchants as we approach criticality. For example, be prepared for a sudden rise in prominence of Orkney sovereigntists in the media.

  14. Donald anderson says:

    Whit does Belly Caledonia ken?

  15. Welsh Sion says:

    From before Indy Ref1, so apologies if a few references are a little dated. The overall message, is, I believe, still valid, however.

    37. (of 60.) The Scott family trunk

    Jack Union was an inveterate gambler. As often as not, he was to be seen in one of the many casinos in town. He was seldom seen in these places without his bosom pal, Sam Washington.

    Like most gamblers, Jack Union lost more money than he won. But that did not stop his addiction to roulette, blackjack or slot machines.

    On the contrary, the more he lost, the more he would stake in the (often erroneous) belief that this outward appearance of riches would influence the roulette wheel or the card dealer and he would recoup (and with interest) his initial ante. Most of the croupiers had by now got wind of this piece of ostentatious bravado on the part of Jack Union, had seen it for the pretence of power or sham that it really was, and had happily arranged matters so that Jack Union would continue to lose money at their casinos. So it was then that Jack Union, and egged on by Sam Washington, could be seen squandering his money on the throw of a die or on the turn of a card night after night.

    In fact, it would be charitable to say that Jack Union was throwing his own money about on the gaming tables and elsewhere. One might have allowed Jack Union the personal choice of frittering away his money. Maybe one might have suggested, very tactfully of course, that he seek counselling for his addiction. But, if rebuffed, a likely scenario as not, one could shrug one’s shoulders, withdraw and walk on by. To each their own.

    What was more pernicious however was that in fact, Jack Union was gambling away money that he held on trust for others. In so doing, he was not only breaking legal principles but also his moral obligations towards those others.

    Some time previously, Jack Union’s neighbours, the Scott family, had fallen on hard times. In order to raise some revenue they had been obliged to sell an old trunk which had been in the family for centuries and was considered to be a valuable heirloom. The trunk was therefore sold to the brokers, Purcell O. Rogues on Cabal Street in town. The sum realised was a meagre £17.07.

    Rogues had then sold the trunk on to Jack Union at a healthy profit to themselves, with the (and as it turned out, unenforceable) caveat that he, Jack Union, would look after the Scotts in any business dealings involving the trunk.

    Now the trunk also came with a large amount of a thick, black and unpalatable liquid which was held in a vast number of bottles. Jack Union quickly seized the opportunity afforded to him by this and began to sell off the bottles of black liquid, thus making a big profit for himself. Obviously, monies accruing from the sales of this commodity were then “invested” in the casinos – not transferred to the Scotts as detailed under the trust deed. Thus, the profits fed Jack Union’s gambling addiction and also underlined his illegal and immoral conduct as the Scotts’ trustee and guarantor.

    Naturally, the Scotts were not best pleased at Jack Union’s behaviour. What they considered to be their birthright was being sold off in order to finance Jack Union’s gambling lust. So they gathered together, decided to enlist the support of their friends, notably Jacob Ite and his dashing young lieutenant, Charlie Stewart, to petition Jack Union for the return of the trunk. To no avail. Redcotes, Jack Union’s butler, refused them entry and gave Jacob Ite a bloody nose on the doorstep of Culloden House. Charlie Stewart was forced to flee for his life when Redcotes called for the enforcer, Butcher-Cumberland. (This last was known in town for his savagery and ferocity. Butcher-Cumberland was not a man to be trifled with nor crossed.)

    Having dismissed Jacob Ite’s petition out of hand, Jack Union reinforced his position and continued to act with impunity. When the trunk was not in use, he had it securely padlocked.

    Redcotes acted the dutiful retainer. A private army was maintained under Marshal-Wade to crush any future attempt by the Scotts to regain the historic trunk. In the legal domain, Messrs. Darling, Lamont, Davidson and Davidson (Solicitors and Commissioners for Oaths – the last named partner was well-known for administering oaths) spun legal principles in order to maintain Jack Union’s authority over the Scotts, deprive them of the historic trunk and protect him from being sued for breach of the trust deed. (The other partner in this legal practice was said to be on sick leave. Contrary to popular belief, Rennies give you indigestion – not relieve you of it).

    Jack Union therefore felt secure that nothing could hinder his progress to further profits and his enjoyment of gambling.


    But as is often the case, nemesis is to be found to be a close companion of hubris. One evening, Jack Union lost a much larger sum than normal at the Iraq Venture casino. At his side, as was usual, was his best friend, Sam Washington. Now, subsequently, and although the link between the two was not proven, a few weeks later Jack Union was barred from the AAA Club. In private, he was furious at this slight to his seemingly invincible self-confidence.

    In public however, Jack Union insisted that there would be no change in his outward behaviour. He had to keep up appearances. He would continue to squ- – errmm – invest the monies earned from the sale of the bottles of the black liquid in other casinos.

    The Scotts, quite naturally, were appalled by the man’s brazenness. There had to be a way of reclaiming their historic trunk. They had to shock Jack Union into realising what he was doing and that like all gamblers and cheats he would ultimately be left all alone with no friends or money. Not that they felt any pity for him, of course – it had gone too far for that.

    Yes. That was it. They, the Scotts, had to take matters into their own hands. They would have take the trunk back themselves. They would also get a Salmond key from Jenkins’s the locksmiths on h-Aye Street in town. This key would serve as a skeleton key, opening any lock, removing any obstacle to their acquiring the trunk, and most importantly opening the padlock to the trunk itself which Jack Union had placed on it, once it had been returned home. The regaining of the Scott family trunk then would quite literally be in their hands.

    Next, a date for the planned day for liberating the trunk from Jack Union’s house had to be agreed upon. It was then unanimously accepted that 18 September was ideal – most of Jack Union’s private army would be away on leave or square bashing at their annual muster in Aldershot or Brighton or Blackpool or wherever at that time. (It did not really matter where – it was enough to know that most of the Praetorian Guard as it were would be away then). The Scotts and their followers would then be able to rush on Jack Union’s house, seize the trunk and return both it and the bottles of black liquid back to their rightful owners.

    An element of surprise was vital – Jack Union and his cohorts would not (nor indeed, should not) expect an attack. In order to avoid being seen by either Redcotes or Butcher-Cumberland or indeed PC Cameron, it was decided that the action to liberate the historic trunk had to occur at night. (They took their cue from the actions of a previous generation who had successfully carried off the Stone of Destiny just before eight o’clock – ten to eight or 19.50 to be exact – one Christmas Night). The date, 18 September had been fixed. Watches were to be synchronised for a little before a quarter past eight, 20.14, on that evening.

    Will the Scotts be successful in winning back their old family heirloom, their historic birthright and talisman as represented by the trunk and the bottles of black liquid? Will the trunk once more have pride of place in their home – its proper home?

    The family know that it is tantalisingly close to their grasp. They also know that if they fail that the retribution of Jack Union and his associates will be harsh and unmitigating.

    They also know that if they succeed that they will be depriving Jack Union of his money making schemes at their expense. On learning of the loss of the trunk and the bottles of black unpalatable liquid, Jack Union will find he will no longer have the means of funding his once lavish and extravagant lifestyle. He will expire a bitter and twisted man. Jack Union’s downfall and demise will not be lamented in the Scott household.

    Parables for the New Politics

  16. Ken MacColl says:

    I recall a Glasgow by-election in the distant past where the Labour Party candidate was Willie Small.
    His posters read


    or it could have been


    Either fitted and, in those halcyon days, he won!

  17. Hamish100 says:

    Most of my Green supporter friends have wood burners at home stinking out the neighbourhood, 4 wheel drives (urban use) using oil derivatives and go several holidays abroad each year by flying / cruises.

    Still they love the planet.

  18. Socrates MacSporran says:

    There are four ways of doing anything:

    1.The easy way.
    2.The hard way.
    3.The stupid way.
    4.The Scottish way.

    It will be the same with independence, with getting an Independent Scotland’s economy working properly, and with handling our oil riches.

    Given this supposedly easy national income, we will make hard work of harvesting it, we will make stupid decisions along the way, but, we work, we will make it eventually – that’s the Scottish way.

  19. ScottieDog says:

    Firstly Scotland is not dependent on oil exports to be a successful independent country – caveat – if we choose sterling or the euro then exports revenue will become much more important and therefore so will oil price.

    Issuing our own currency, reducing our fossil fuel use and perhaps using what we need in our waters to transition to cleaner energy is the way to to.

    Personally I think it’s too late for the biosphere but that doesn’t make we want to light the fires and play the violin. “Yeah son, we are fucked anyway so I bought a Humvee”.

    I’d actually wave the climate card right now at the UK and demand they stop extracting our oil today.
    Yes because of emissions but also becase we don’t benefit from it. Additionally they are so keen on telling us it’s not worth much, then so be it. Cease operations – AND pay for the cleanup from the treasury coffers. That might set the cat amongst the pigeons.

    Of course we can’t make that decision so we have to endure the wrecking of our kids future with no financial gain.

  20. AlbertaScot says:

    Agreed. I’ve always felt that little poison dwarf Green turd was going to be a mega problem.

    Maybe worse that Theresa and the DUP.

    Drill Baby Drill!!! But keep the royalty.

  21. Thomas William Dunlop says:

    “want to tie lead weights around its neck the moment it was achieved”

    That was traditionally done by the departing colonial administrations.

  22. Golfnut says:

    I can just see Harvey threatening to vote against the budget if we dont bin the oil, but the council’s have to get more money.

  23. Bill Purves says:

    An Independent Scottish Government would Set all taxes, collect all taxes and spend all taxes for the benefits of the Scottish people.
    Regarding the Westminster national debt, Scotland would take its share, but as Westminster’s world assets must be bigger than its debts, otherwise the world bank would deem it bankrupt, Scotland would receive its share of the surplus assets after deduction of its debt.

  24. Bill Purves says:

    Regarding oil, fuel and tar are what is left after the removal of all other chemicals.

  25. Fireproofjim says:

    No need to worry about “Orkney sovereignists” or Shetland for that matter.
    These island groups, if they were somehow detached from Scotland, would, by International Law, be treated as enclaves within the 200 mile economic zone of Scottish waters and would be entitled to only a twelve mile marine zone around them. (Like the Channel Islands and France)
    There are NO oilfields within twelve miles of either group.

  26. ephemeraldeception says:

    The Scottish electorate are essentially mushrooms. Content just to sit in the dark and fed a regular diet of shite.

    If we had just managed to get indy we would now be in a very strong position with rUK. All the resources under our Governance and in // companies HQs in London moving to other parts of Europe as Rump Brexit implodes. Popcorn sales would bset records all over Scotlabd. 🙂

    There are still tens of thousands of jobs directly and indirectly linkrd to the “UK” (LOL) oil sector, supply chain, and support services eg insurance, based in and around London.

    Will the oil last forever – ofcourse not. However Westminster incompetence, deception, and contempt for Scotland is almost perpetual and arguably self-sustaining.

    We must get out of this shambolic Union asap.

  27. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Ian Blackford’s amendment, to extend Article 50, falls by 39 votes to 327.

    The Bain Principle is alive and well.

  28. galamcennalath says:

    The SNP amendment has been defeated by 327 votes to 39.

    Don’t you just feel the love!?

  29. Mark Russell says:

    If ever there was an apposite moment for the Scottish people to grasp independence, it was surely a few minutes ago @ 7.27pm following the result of Blackford’s amendment to the government’s EU withdrawal bill.

    What else do we need to know before we lose all our self respect?

  30. ben madigan says:

    The SNP amendment has been defeated by 327 votes to 39 – a majority of 288

    One more for the series – you don’t count and we don’t care!

  31. Iain mhor says:

    Hmm so let me get the straight – they’d be happy to vote for Independence as the best chance of keeping it in the ground? Sweet, thanks for voting.
    Or is it, ‘Yah, I’ll vote Indy only if there is a Vow to keep it in the ground” Sweet, here’s a “Vow” thanks for your vote.
    Or perhaps its really “I have absolutely no intention of voting Indy, but it’s such a good topic of conversation over a glass of Chateau Lafite.

    Yeah, the latter, always the latter.

    *Oh and hands off my old Landrover, 75%+ recycled parts and 100% bio from reclaimed waste. Greener than a Prius. It’s also so easily bio-degradeable it’s a full time job stopping the bugger doing it…Gargh!

  32. Clootie says:

    Do the Scottish Greens have any chance of EVER getting Westminster to leave the Oil in the ground – NO!

    Could the influence the long term production of an Independent Scotland – YES!

    I would support a long term plan that used an Oil fund to develop alternative energy but not the grubby foot stamping Green threat.

  33. ronnie anderson says:

    Another nail in the coffin of Bella & the Leftist/Greenist movement

  34. sandy says:

    Does Patrick Harvey realise how many hundreds uses there are for the by-products of hydrocarbons?
    The man is becoming a pain in the rectum. Does he have a hitching rail for his horse at Holywood or does he take his bike into the lobby?

  35. call me dave says:

    If the ‘not Scottish oil’ black stuff that’s no good was in Pandora’s box I would certainly want Scotland to be in charge of the key. Who else would anyone suggest?

    It’s a no brainer! Independence first then all else follows.

  36. Robert Louis says:

    Given the fact that all the sensible amendments have been defeated tonight, that Theresa May is lying like a good un again, and that the SNP amendment was defeated, the position is clear.

    Their is no longer any point in waiting. Time for indyref.

  37. Gary45% says:

    SNP walk out of Westminster tomorrow.

  38. IZZIE says:

    Does anyone know did Labour abstain on Blackfords amendment?

  39. admiral says:

    Well, all the amendments designed to prevent a no deal Brexit are being lost due to the warring Tory factions coming together, aided and abetted by their Red Tory friends.

  40. Essexexile says:

    No deal now highly likely if not almost certain.
    I’m still of the thinking that there’s some time to go before NS calls the ref but, I’m having increasing sympathy with the view of ‘if not now, when?’

  41. chicmac says:

    “I read the other day that due to the quality of Scotland’s oil, much (most?) of it wasn’t used for fuel but was instead used for manufacturing things like plastics…”

    That is the opposite of the truth. Brent crude is one of the lightest native oils in the World beaten only by West Texas deposits and is largely used to produce gasoline.

  42. Sinky says:

    Even without a sovereign wealth fund, as George Kerevan wrote in The National just after the last GERS figures were published, if a Scottish Government taxed North Sea oil companies at UK 2010 levels it would produce £6 billion this year and wipe out 50% of the deficit. Then you deduct the £3.5billion we are charged for UK national debt which leaves a very negligible deficit. The Yes movement need to get this message over.

  43. Rock says:

    The 5% soft Yes voters who would have tipped the balance in the favour of Yes in 2014 were scared to death by the likes of Asda into voting No.

    The same will happen next time, whenever in the future it might be (not for a very long time in my humble opinion).

    I have warned many times before of the stupidity in trying to convert the hard Nos to Yes.

    Instead of protecting relatively well off No voters from Tory cuts, the SNP should have done much more for the have nots in Scottish society and made them into hard Yes.

  44. ScotsRenewables says:

    IZZIE says:
    29 January, 2019 at 8:12 pm
    Does anyone know did Labour abstain on Blackfords amendment?

    Yes, they did.

  45. robbo says:

    I fecking hate the DUP.

  46. Armitage Shanks says:

    I could see the oil and gas being exploited if independent and out of the EU but the carbon reduction targets the EU jas set may scupper or reduce the future potential of Scottish gas and oil. I think an all-out push exploiting energy from renewables would be a better strategy.

  47. Ian says:

    It’s not just North Sea oil revenues that were wasted

    – Marshall Aid – UK received $3.3b Germany $1.5b

    – Privatisation of public assets (A total of £26.4 billion was made in 2015 through privatisations, beating by almost £6 million the previous record set in 1987, according to analysis by the Press Association).

    Then debt was the solution –

    – UK National debt in 2008 – £0.45 trillion (39% of GDP), in 2019 – £1.78 trillion (88% of GDP)

    PFI’s – Taxpayers will be forced to hand over nearly £200bn to contractors under private finance deals for at least 25 years, according to a report by Whitehall’s spending watchdog.

    The UK has been mismanaged for decades. And as if the long list of waste and stupidity wasn’t enough, now we have Brexit as hopefully the definitive proof that it’s time to make our own decisions. All of them.

  48. robbo says:

    The twat that said we should go to the chippy was Wilson OR Paisley – two of the most bigoted men in Ireland!

  49. Meg merrilees says:

    Flippin’ heck – even the BBC is getting confused now.

    The Breaking news headline has just stated that MP’s have rejected the Plan to prevent the UK leaving the Eu without a deal when in fact the vote has just been carried by 8 votes.

    Have now properly adjusted it to MP’s reject no-deal Brexit.

  50. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Confused @ 18:05,

    Very well observed there. But then that crew don’t want to even try for independence for another three years, and that’s probably a moving target anyway. Anything to confuse, divide and delay, it would seem.

    (You might wonder what their thinking is. And even who’s paying them.)

  51. call me dave says:

    BBC says:
    MPs reject no-deal Brexit by 318 to 310 in non-binding vote
    3 minutes ago

    Anyhoo! A chance to give the UK it’s chips coming soon.

  52. Haggishunter says:

    I worked in Norway, and every person has the same work / living conditions and time off, the gap in wages isn’t huge between different trades, they have a far superior work ethic, and their engineering projects make the UKs laughable.

    In the ‘UK’ sector, 60% of the rig does very little work, while the service hands, drillers and catering staff are under pressure to do more work, they tend to be treated like shit, have crap living conditions, the time off shore varies from 2 weeks on 3 weeks off for oil company people, or 2 on 2 off (or 3 and 3) for drillers and catering staff, to around 3 weeks on 1 week off for service hands.

    A friend of mine was on a vessel that sailed from Aberdeen, to work in Stavanger, and strict Norwegian laws applied; their wages went from £16k per annum to £45k, while the oil company reps and ships hierarchy wages went from between £90k-£200k to between £50k-£90k. They all received the same time off and there were no shite cabins for ‘peasants’ and great cabins for the ‘Lords’. Unlike the U.K. the Norwegians provided a phone and internet and a toilet in a single person cabin, while this is available to oil company hands, the further you go down the accommodation levels the worse it gets, to shared shower rooms, 4 man cabins, one telephone per 50 people and no internet.
    When I first started, all the oil companies had their own lounges, and it was nearly unheard of for a Scot to be in a position of management. Apparteit!
    Scotland holds a ba hair short of 100% of the oil that the U.K. takes, and something like 72% of the gas.
    I know, I used to operate the tools that survey the wells.

  53. geeo says:

    Sinky @8.21pm

    Assuming you accept the GERS fantasy figures, of course…..hmm!

  54. Essexexile

    Nicola may have to wait until Feb 24th/28th.

    If T May’s deal goes through tonight apparently, she will go to Brussels and try to get the EU to re-open the withdrawal agreement. She then plans to return to WM to discuss things further and the plan is to give MP’s another vote in late February- (can’t remember the date off the top of my head).

    So up until that point, T May could extend/ cancel ARTICLE 50 or call a GE. Each of these would seriously affect aNy indyref called before that time so we may have to sit it out.

    At least since the Spellman amendment has passed then there should now be no ‘No Deal’.

  55. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Essexexile @ 20:20,

    I suppose if the Brady amendment passes, it will indicate that English exceptionalism lives, magical thinking persists, and thus no-deal becomes that more likely…

  56. Lenny Hartley says:

    Meg not only the BBC that are getting confused, multiple news outlets reporting Coopers amendment rejected which means that MP’s have not rejected no deal brexit, or am i the one getting confused ?

  57. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    me @ 20:36

    … that much more likely…

  58. admiral says:

    @Ian The UK has been mismanaged for decades

    I think actually the neo-liberals have efficiently managed the transfer of vast amounts of public wealth from the hands of the many to the grasping hands of the very, very few.

    Aided and abetted by the blue, red and yellow Tories.

  59. Confused says:

    good point fireproofjim about maritime zones, but garrion brought the point up re: orkney
    – for robbo :

  60. geeo says:

    @meg merrilees

    The statement is due 13th Feb with a vote on 14th Feb.

    Valentines day massacre.

  61. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Lenny Hartley @ 20:37,

    Which all goes to prove that the entire process is nothing more than a farce.

  62. ScottishPsyche says:

    The Brady amendment – which the EU has explicitly rejected as of 12 midday- has passed in the HoC.

    We are f**cked. Brexit shopping online tonight.

  63. Meg merrilees says:

    Cooper’s amendment was rejected. ( 15of her own Labour colleagues voted against her)

    But Spellman’s passed with 8 votes. This is not legally binding but it shows T May, apparently, that the House has a majority to defeat her at the next vote – should they so choose, and could force her to rule out no Deal should the EU refuse to change the Withdrawal DEAL.

    All confusing because everyone agreed, she seems to be running the clock down.

    Now giving some speech to MP’s about how there is a majority for a deal and she will deliver Brexit.

    Heaven help England and let’s het those lifeboats ready to launch.

  64. Republicofscotland says:

    I couldn’t agree more, rent out Faslane for £10 billion a year until the MoD finds an alternative site outside Scotland.

    As for North sea oil, milk it for all its worth and then some.

  65. Mark Russell says:

    Where is Angus Robertson (or Alex Salmond) when you need him? So, after a good kick in the balls, Blackford stands up for Ireland.


  66. Thepnr says:

    Tonight’s debate a complete waste of time. May says she is going back to the EU to renegotiate the Withdrawal Agreement.

    Donald Tusk has just said forget it:

    Immediate response from Tusk – ‘ Withdrawal agreement is and remains the best and only way to ensure an orderly withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union. The backstop is part of the Withdrawal Agreement, and the Withdrawal Agreement is not open for re-negotiation’

    The another amendment that was agreed was Caroline Spelman’s ‘no-deal’ amendment which as it says on the tin seeks to avoid a no-deal Brexit.

    Despite being passed by parliament, it is not enforceable in any way and May can choose to ignore it completely if she wants.

  67. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Donald Tusk has apparently just reiterated that May’s “deal” is not renegotiable. So her “Brady upgrade” is dead on arrival. Dead on departure, even.

    Tick tock. Yet more talking down the clock…

  68. Thepnr says:

    Here is the full text of the Donald Tusk statement made on behalf of all 27 EU members.

    The short version is “you’re avin a larf”.

  69. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Mark Russell at 8.53

    What utter rubbish. Blackford was first class. Who are you?

  70. schrodingers cat says:

    BRENT crude, API = 38

    an extrapolation/mixure of the various types of oil from the 5 oil bearing formations in the brent field

    the formations are


    brent crude isnt an actual thing, it is a created standard by which we can measure and evaluate the numerous types of oil produced by the numerous different oil bearing formations in the northsea.

    some formation produce very heavy oils (lots of long chain hydocarbons) which are used to make tar or are processed (cracked etc) to produce plastics. some formations produce very light oils, used to make aviation fuel etc. (light oils tend to be more valuble)

    replacing our HC power stations with renewable alternatives and electrifying cars and trains, would reduce our HC consumption by 95%. effectively solving the co2 problem.

  71. John Jones says:

    Willie Small! A case for deed poll I think!

  72. robbo says:

    As Wallace said at the “Battle of Stirling” “Hold,” “Hold,” “Hold”

    The EU must Hold fast and not give in!

  73. Unusually I have to disagree with this post of yours, Stu. That’s because it’s based on the false premise that there is considerable oil wealth to be derived from the North Sea.

    That’s simply not true.

    In 2014, Alistair Darling said the oil would run out “as early as late 2017”, and I don’t think you get to be The Right Honourable the Lord Darling of Roulanish without being very clever and knowing about these things.

  74. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Confused at 6.05

    No idea why the Sunday National gives Small/Bella Caledonia and space at all. Divisionists

  75. Cubby says:

    May just wasting time again.

    My forecast of no deal Brexit/united Ireland/independent Scotland still has legs. Britnats eat your heart out.

    Of course a Brexit deal agreed/ united ireland/independent Scotland is still possible but probable?

  76. IZZIE says:

    Thanks ScotsRenewables@ 8.23 Just goes to show Labour hate the SNP more than the Tories. They are willing to sacrifice Scottish interests on the altar of the precioussss union

  77. John Jones says @ 9:09 pm
    Willie Small! A case for deed poll I think!

    Yep, he should have changed it to Dick.

  78. Auld Rock says:

    To all Wingers, relax the EU has emphatically stated, the ‘BACKSTOP’ and its associated Withdrawal Agreement are not open for renegotiation. So hopefully May is pissing into the wind.

    As an Engineer I know that advances in technology can happen at an amazing rate but I also know that from discovery to a practical and safe use can be many, many years except in a ‘war’ situation where corners are cut, chances are taken, safety goes out the window and innocent lives are lost. So we are very unlikely to see a battery or some other non polluting fuel powering an A380 sized air-liner non-stop to Australia with 400+ passengers and crew.

    As for Scotland’s oil/gas reserves there are fields West of Shetland and all down the Hebrides that will make the North Sea look like a child’s paddling-pool. So I’ll advocate Scotland giving-up its 1 or 2% when the other 98/99% does likewise.

    Oh, look there is a squadron of pigs flying over Edinburgh!!!

  79. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Posted a poll on Twitter just after 9, asking…

    ‘Do you feel SNP MPs should leave the Commons?’

    By the time I post this it’ll be approx 200 votes cast, and the breaksdown right now is:

    Yes 68%
    No 4%
    Not yet 28%

    As ever, would be grateful if someone could share this link to other platforms.


  80. Mark Russell says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill – Excellent – really? Afraid I think he’s little more than a useful idiot – in much the same vein as Charlie Kennedy, but without the wit – or intelligence. That was an embarrassing performance tonight, but I acknowledge we probably have a different perspective.

  81. Thepnr says:

    @Auld Rock

    So too now has Irish Prime Minister Varadkar. Tories typically once again are whistling in the wind. Arses.

    The EU position on the withdrawal agreement, including the backstop, is set out in the conclusions of the December meeting of the European Council. It has not changed.

    The withdrawal agreement is not open for re-negotiation.

    The agreement is a carefully negotiated compromise, which balances the UK position on customs and the single market with avoiding a hard border and protecting the integrity of the EU customs union and single market.

    The best way to ensure an orderly withdrawal is to ratify this agreement.

    We have consistently said that we want the closest possible future relationship between the EU and the UK. A change in the UK red lines could lead to a change in the political Declaration on the framework for the future relationship, and a better overall outcome.

    We will continue our preparations for all outcomes, including for a no-deal scenario.

  82. Cubby says:


    There is no Scottish deficit or debt.

  83. chicmac says:

    Brent crude is indeed an international standard based on more than a dozen North Sea oil field products, many of them sourced in the Norwegian sector.

    However that standard average is classified both light and sweet (low sulphur content) similar to the older West Texas Intermediate standard and has effectively taken over as the main standard for the time being at least.

    That means it needs less refining than most and therefore is used primarily for generating fuels and has a barrel price premium.

  84. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Dave McEwan Hill @ 21:10,


    I wouldn’t mind if they were genuinely representative of a significant segment of opinion within the independence movement. But they aren’t. They represent only themselves.

    (Maybe that’s why they want indy postponed for n years, where n is a large integer. They hope the SNP will burn out due to public frustration in the meantime so they can supposedly take over. And that’s the most charitable interpretation.)

  85. Rock says:

    Dave McEwan Hill says:
    29 January, 2019 at 9:10 pm

    “No idea why the Sunday National gives Small/Bella Caledonia and space at all. Divisionists”

    As a once diehard supporter of The National, have you started questioning it?

    Rock (8th February 2016 – “Why beggars will be losers”):

    “I am no fan of phoney supporters of independence.

    The National will do its best to split the SNP vote by heavily promoting RISE as it has already been doing.

    Vote SNP+SNP for independence.”

  86. Macart says:

    Neatly done Rev and well said.

    Also? For the purists out there? Probably worth noting that a vote for independence and self government isn’t conditional on… fill in as appropriate. The principle of having a working democracy where you can have your voice and your rights respected isn’t a serving suggestion.

  87. Majestic12 says:

    I, for one, do dispute the reality of man-made climate change.

  88. mike cassidy says:


    There’s a vote in favour of no ‘no-deal’.

    But it doesn’t mean anything because nobody is obliged to adhere to it.

    So we’re still down the rabbit hole with Alice.

    May dreams of renegotiating a non-renegotiatable agreement.

    The extreme Brexiteers dream of a no-deal Brexit.

    And people like this dream that they were on active duty in World War 2 when they weren’t even born.

    Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.

    Calling occupants of interplanetary craft!

  89. ScottieDog says:

    @schrodingers cat.
    I switched off at around 12:30. They guy doesn’t understand climate change.
    “Fewer cold deaths”

    That’s utter unsubstantiated pish I’m afraid.

    Look around and you’ll see there are more frequent ‘extremes’ due to the waviness of the jet stream – due to a reduced temperature differential between the equator and the poles.

    That means more prolonged periods of severe weather – heat AND cold. Look at North America just now for example.

  90. Thought Ian Blackford was awesome,

    speaking the truth when heckled by nearly 600 rabid Brutish Nationalists and their red,blue and yellow Uncle Tam gimps,

    no true Scottish person could watch that and not feel anger at the contempt the Brutish parliament have for Scotland.

  91. Craig Murray says:

    I thought Blackford did fine, with an appropriate passion. But I thought Joanne Cherry made the best speech of the debate. I was also very impressed by Liz Saville Roberts of Plaid Cymru.

  92. galamcennalath says:

    From WoS Twitter this morning ….

    “Brexit has been 18 months of watching someone trying to haggle on prices with the automatic scanning machine at a Tesco checkout. “

    … and now WM has just told TMay to go and haggle a bit more!

    What is this all about?

    It looks suspiciously like running the clock down further to engineer a ‘no deal’ with the bonus that the EU can be blamed for not doing as the Mother of Parliaments tells them!

  93. Dr Jim says:

    You can always spot a Lib Dem

  94. Pogmothon says:

    With ref to


    29 January, 2019 at 5:54 pm

    “we all know that Scotland’s oil will quite naturally have run out completely.”

    Project Fear is stepping up it’s efforts
    with an article from Nathalie Thomas the FT energy correspondent.(using photos from the GoM to illustrate platforms to be scrapped)
    Apparently UK taxpayers are likely to pay £24bn for scrapping oil rigs. because the companies will run away one way or another without properly funding the decommissioning of the platforms and infrastructures.
    The obvious inference is that this bill would fall to an independent Scotland.
    Well here’s a news flash the oil companies have been at this for the last 15 to 20 years, don’t you remember the sale of the Forties field and various other North Sea assets even Grangemouth.
    Try to remember it’s Jock Tamson’s bairns yer trying tae fear. If we’re goney get stuck with the bill for decommissioning with a questionable income from the tax revenue. We’d be as well to “reap our own harvest and ring our own tills” and just nationalise the lot.
    There’s more than enough talent and experience here to run the lot, from exploration drilling rigs to production platforms and shipment to point of sale. For the last fifty years Jocks have been commuting all over the planet to service and run oil installations of all kinds.
    So its one of two options “lets have a party” or “get stuck right intae it/him”.
    We might even let you choose easy or hard cos an Independent Scotland would make a good friend, but a bad B***ard of and enemy. Do you feel lucky Nathalie.

  95. Artyhetty says:

    Monica Worley@5.58pm

    You are correct and I think there was a plastics factory on the Firth of Forth, of some kind. You just have to look at National Library of Scotland ‘moving image’ the films, ( some not available online) are an eye opener to behold in terms of Scotland’s industry and well, everything really.

    Click on ‘genre’ or ‘subject’ and if you have spare few hours, a week, month or year start watching! In fact Scotland has been known to have oil since at least the 1950’s, probably before, when I think it was, a pipeline was taken from Glasgow, yes, oil in the west coast, to Firth of Forth to be ‘exported’ ie taken out of Scotland bye bye oil, bye bye revenues!

    Also the Firth of Forth was dredged for shale oil, that’s why they want to frack it to kingdom come!

    Plenty regions of England had industries, but Scotland was awash with so much by way of natural resources, land, sea and a workforce, it made some people very very rich. Still does, but the riches leave these shores, sorry, are taken from these shores. Someone’s onto a winner. Not Scotland though.

    Ps the films at National Library are in copyright you can watch lots of them online but cannot share. It’s a fantastic resources though if you want to know what Scotland was like since late 1800’s.

  96. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    RE: Climate Change.

    22 ice ages have been documented from ice cores in the Arctic and ocean-bed cores taken from the Pacific.

    They go back 2 and 1/2 million years. Each ice age lasted around 100,000 years, with an interglacial period of around 10,000 years.

    We are, currently, 11,500 years into the current interglacial period. Previous ice ages were triggered when the atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration exceeded around 110 parts per million.

    From those cores, it was also seen that in the 50-odd years prior to the onset of glaciation, there was a rise in volcanic eruptions, tsunamis, wildfires, hurricanes and so on, ie, extreme weather.

    The planet is on borrowed time…

    A quote from the link below:-

    “When we clear forests, we remove a dense growth of plants that had stored carbon in wood, stems, and leaves—biomass.
    By removing a forest, we eliminate plants that would otherwise take carbon out of the atmosphere as they grow. We tend to replace the dense growth with crops or pasture, which store less carbon. We also expose soil that vents carbon from decayed plant matter into the atmosphere.
    Humans are currently emitting just under a billion tons of carbon into the atmosphere per year through land use changes.”

    See also:-

  97. ronnie anderson says:

    Ian Brotherhood shared LVSS/Scot2 scot/The Spider/English scots for yes

  98. velofello says:

    No negotiation over Trident, it goes out of Scotland upon independence. Allowing Perfidious Albion any foothold in an independent Scotland would be a major error.

    Any agreement for Trident to leave in 2, 5, 7 years or whatever would enable Perfidious Albion to prevaricate add nausium.

    Concerning crude oil distillation, it’s been a long time since I was involved, and I’m not a Chemical Engineer – essentially crude oil is fed into a fractionating column, and heated by steam. The heated, vaporised oil rise up through resistance trays (bubble caps) and at various levels of the column product can be drawn off – heavy oil, light oil etc, and gas exits the top exit, tar exits from the bottom. At various levels the product can be drawn of, reheated, via reboilers and fed back into the column.

  99. Artyhetty says:

    You definitely cannot access the film, ‘Interview with secretary of state for Scotland on oil’ 1973, made by STV, though you can get details and buy it, via nls image archive.

    ‘An interview with Gordon Campbell, Secretary of State for Scotland on what opportunities the oil boom may present for Scotland whilst attempting to address certain environmental concerns which have arisen from this boom’.

    Boom boom Basil!

    What boom you may ask.

  100. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    I have ITV News on in the background.

    Just heard someone saying negotiations with the EU were “deadlocked”.

    Eh? I thought that the EU take on it was that negotiations were concluded?

  101. Hamish100 says:

    mark Russell -divide and rule tonight is it?

  102. ScottishPsyche says:

    I thought Blackford was excellent. I have been critical in the past as I felt he sometimes left himself open to obvious shutdown comments from the Tories but he handled all the pathetic interventions really well tonight.

    I agree Joanna Cherry did well but she is always on top of her game and can adapt so quickly to ongoing events.

    It is almost unbearable what they have to put up with and tonight was one of the worst. It brings back the memory of all those hideous nights of the Scotland Act 2016 with defeat after defeat by drunk Tories coming back from the Westminster bar.

  103. Daisy Walker says:

    Prior to being granted drilling rights the companies concerned have to agree a fee for the decommissioning.

    In 2014 Jim Sillars put this figure at £5 million’s worth of decommissioning work, that an Independent Scottish Government could negotiate tax breaks on – so the work would come here, rather than go to india or other such sunny climes.

    I did my own research – probably Oil and Gas Uk / one of the Wood Reports – sorry can’t recall source – and found the figure of £15 million. That’s a lot of decommissioning work / apprenticeships that could come our way.

    Since then, of course, the wonderful Prof Robertson’s Talking Up Scotland – has published reports that Germany is heavily involved in looking to utilising decommissioned oil rigs for storing Hydrogen. Which would come in very handy, given that Scotland’s been the first to utilise tidal power, to split H2O into Hydrogen and Oxygen in a one step process up in Orkney.

    Meanwhile in Texas – Dallas theme tune Cactus! – Oil state Texas has worked out its yearly average of wind power and sun power, and for any new business looking to move to the state, they sit down and have a nice wee chat about that companies likely power needs. Then they offer them a power discount, calculated on what they can generate from renewables.

    And the nice thing – renewable energy jobs, tend to be quite involved, and quite well paid… really good for the local economy.

    incidentally California is the State in USA which is REALLY into renewables in a big way.

    Meanwhile, back on the ranch… I had a conversation with 2 very stout former No voters today, both deeply, deeply worried about Brexit, and now conceding certain facts about the way Westminster is running things and Scotland’s real economic strengths (in 2014 these things met closed ears) – and that! is nothing short of miraculous.

    I wonder if by the time they come round to Yes, there will be enough time for them to realise, they are going to have to fight for it – hopefully in the peaceful sense of the word. It’s very likely not going to be enough for them just to come round to Yes.

    I do hope we hear from NS soon. We are running out of time.

  104. Daisy Walker says:

    Sorry the Decommissioning work should read Billions not millions.

  105. Petra says:

    Well no one other than people like us saw Ian Blackford speak. No one other than us know that the SNP’s amendment suffered a humiliating defeat as no other Scottish MP’s supported them. Plus the Labour Party .. the one that says that it cares about the people. The BBC, as an example, saying nought. Keeping the Scots in the dark as usual, as they claw in £320 million from us every year.

    Meanwhile Queenie / the Establishment sent Willie and Kate to Scotland in an attempt to con us all. Feart that support for Independence is rising. A kick in the teeth in fact when you think of the £millions the number one UK benefit scroungers receive every year. The BBC broadcast their wee visit of course. Oooo, aaaa …. all so very concerned about the Michelin redundancies in Scotland, in the main created by Brexit, that Queenie seemingly supports. No redundancies in England? Next up a visit from Harry, Meghan and the wean.

  106. jfngw says:

    Liz Truss on Newsnight claiming victory for the Tories and more importantly declaring a majority is a majority in a parliamentary vote. I hope they take this on board and the triple parliamentary majority that Scotland has achieved in three elections and a parliamentary vote at Holyrood.

  107. mike cassidy says:


    Radio Scotland did mention the defeat of the SNP amendment. And played the sound of that vote being announced.

    The question is

    Did the BBC broadcast this to subversively say this is how they treat Scotland

    Or as a big ‘feck you’ to the independence community?

  108. Artyhetty says:

    Brian Doonthetoon@10,23pm

    Indeed, watched a great youtube vid of a scientist guy who sealed himself in a plastic tent, with a few plants, to measure human functioning according to rising CO2. The levels of carbon dioxide for normal functioning I think were around 400ppm, ( don’t qoute me on that climate experts) but it’s gone up in the general environment, and is going up far too fast. Apparently humans cognitive ability reduces as CO2 rises, even by a small amount. So, not long before the guy was struggling to think and speak. It was a controlled experiment he was OK!

    I can’t understand why ‘The Flow Country’ Europe’s biggest blanket bog, up in Caithness, is still not a world heritage site. It’s reliant on er, ‘UKgov approval’. Now, have a look at what is worthy of W H status, re the UK, it’s all online. The Flow Country has been trying since 2012 for world heritage status it’s a long process, but if you look at what it does for the planet, it should be automatic! Mind you it was also drained in parts, in the 1970/80’s to er plant pine trees. Devastating.

    I wonder if that was same Britnat & royals’ tree planting scheme in Scotland, in order to offset tax that happened in
    D & G as well, about then! It’s having to be felled now, in order to restore the bog it’s costly and time consuming.

    Have a look, it’s one of many blanket bogs in Scotland, but is huge and very deep so stores tons and tons of co2 and supports some unique and amazing flora and fauna.

  109. Corrado Mella says:

    Whatever kind of oil Scotland has, fuel is not the only product we get from it.

    We rely heavily on oil for many other by-products we cannot do without.

    Up to 40% of crude oil is not converted into fuels and has close to no carbon footprint, as is not burnt or released into the atmosphere but remains in solid form – eg tar for tarmac (asphalt) or vaseline.

    We also have enormous natural gas reserves. The climate impact of gas is negligible, when used properly.

    The O&G industry has many decades of life left with negligible to no impact to climate and pollution.

  110. Cactus says:

    2 months remaining to go until no-deal Br UKexit begins.

    Welcome back to the eleventh hour.

    Think forwards.

  111. Contrary says:

    No no no, a deficit is GOOD, for a fiscally autonomous, money-printing government. All governments (using fiat currency) run a deficit, but they can’t seem to admit that it’s a necessary thing. Within reason of course. A government’s deficit is its citizens surplus.

    Economies do not run the same as a household budget. As long as the government continually invests in infrastructure, and collects taxes, it will run a deficit, and the economy is healthy.

    Debt is bad.

    But yes, we need to keep extracting oil until we can get things up and running – they’ve just found a huge gas field too, which is even better – hopefully taxing it at premium rate. Lots a stuff to build – maybe invest in some superconducting (no voltage loss) cables for the national grid, maybe ensure the highland and islands are as well provisioned as the central belt. Once you have a top class electricity grid you can really consider renewables, efficiency etc. I have a fabulous idea for a wall-like structure down at the borders too – a big long series of towers, flats, bridges, shopping malls, gates, water features, soaring sculptures – it would keep architects and builders and artists employed for years, increase the number of affordable homes, create jobs, be a tourist attraction and handily be an efficient customs check area.

  112. Phronesis says:

    The malignant UK tax mechanism- fleecing Scotland.
    Norway – not fleecing Norway.

    ‘the $1tn Norwegian Oil Fund is composed of AGR in the form of oil rents. Just one strand of Annual Ground Rent, the equivalent of which has been sucked out of Scotland to London and the South East within the toxic mechanism called the UK Idea…That mechanism could be mended: an AGR/LVT version of the UK would be one in which each member nation or location (e.g. The North) was treated equally. In such a union the returns on investments from each region (taxes invested in amenities) would be returned to their producers…Such is not the case in the UK today; instead people and resources are sucked out of the periphery and deposited at the economic centre (London and the South East).

    This socially corrosive process, by which wealth that is produced by others is extracted, unearned, is called Rent Seeking… The devastating compound effects of the malignant UK tax mechanism, from decades and centuries spent draining wealth form the economic periphery, can be seen all around the UK margin in 2019’

  113. Liz g says:

    Well…. My vote for Scotland’s Independence is absolutely unconditional.

    I can see the value of the oil and I would like for it to be used wisely.
    It’s a resource to be sure,and mindful of the Environment,we do need to think about the best way to strike a balance with it that’s tilted towards being cleaner and greener.

    But the Neuks, for me, are a different story.
    My Indy vote doesn’t EVER depend on getting them gone,and anyway without Independence the conversation isn’t even ours to have!

    But there is No price the British Nationalists could pay that would convince me to rent that Base to them.
    I don’t trust them to handle them safely right now….

    The Moral rights and wrongs of Westminster having Neuks in the first place is a different argument for another day.
    nevertheless they should not be on the Clyde…. They are not far enough away from the population.
    Yes, when it comes to the Neuks, I am an unapologetic NIMBY!
    Everyone and Everything that matters to me is in the Blast Zone of an Accident with those thing’s.
    IMHO the whole of this Island isn’t big enough to be having them,but I have very little say over it!!!

    One of the things, I’m hoping Independence gives me… Is enough influence over my Government to get those things away from my City,and off our roads as soon as possible.
    I understand the Clyde Base’s rental potential but the risk is too great.
    We have enough resources to make it without whoring out that Base.

    I would also point out two thing’s more.
    Firstly… If we allow Westminster to keep the Base as Sovereign Territory…Will we ever get rid of them as tennants?
    Would an international TREATY be enough?
    Because they don’t seem to mind too much breaking the terms and conditions of the last one we made with them!
    It’s also taking 27 other Countries best efforts to hold them to The Good Friday Agreement.
    If you add to this that Scotland Act that they have just wrecked,and the Vow that wasn’t…. Then I’m no minded to make an agreement over the Clyde Base…

    Even without our Oil and the Base,Westminster has always, since the Treaty of Union,tried to keep control of Scotland.
    This,I’d say, is because they do not want any competition for London.Quite a fair position in fact, for any Government to take.
    To follow that thru… It’s not beyond imagination,that an “Accidentally” on “Purpose” accident would lose us our Base and any resources in that area.
    As a purely altruistic move … Tis a thought!
    Could they,would they, be wargaming that right now?
    A “managed” incident?
    Fantasy perhaps…. But they would have the means and the opportunity to do it..
    So the question is Should Scotland trust them enough to rent that Base to them?
    A Government that’s falling apart and enthralled to a Right Wing cabal,and were going to choose to let them keep Neuks on our land.
    Money’s no everything,and ye canny put a price on Glasgow,we’re no for sale.

    So,Rev, naw they canny afford Faslaned Coleport and we canny afford to let them try to!

  114. potter says:

    According to HMRC regional trade stats the second largest export from London was Mineral Fuel. Wonder where that came from?

  115. Lanarkist says:

    James Patrick’s thread from 1st Oct 18 seems very prescient now!

  116. Colin Alexander says:

    “If our First Minister calls for a Section 30, based on democracy, then this house must respect the will of the Scottish people.”

    This is like a soap opera where the storyline is dragged out so much that it’s just pissing everyone off.

    SNP, just request the s30, get on with getting it refused and say whether you’re holding indyref without one or not at some point. Please.

    The SNP might think this is making it exciting and engaging people. It’s not. Everyone is just getting fed up with it.

    The SNP are nearly as bad as the Tory Govt at causing “voter fatigue” as the politicians call it.

    Normal people call it being bored with politics.

  117. geeo says:

    @Liz-g 11.12pm

    Not sure a post indy WM could even afford the Trident system, never mind a stout rental charge.

  118. Dr Jim says:

    Aye the EU will cave in at the eleventh hour and England will walk all over Ireland and Scotland and assert their rightful God given authority to rule in this Brexican standoff


    Theresa May will be lucky to get a polite cup of tea but she’ll be successful in running the clock down another couple of weeks till the Tories blame the EU for everything by doing what they’ve intended doing all along which is importantly anything to hold their party together and F..k everybody else as long as they win the following GE, which they probably will with promises of huge benevolence for all that’ll never happen but who cares as long as they win eh

  119. geeo says:

    Trying to talk for everyone again huh, coco ?

    When people, including previous No voters talk to me, and demand to know why indyref2 has not been called yet, i simply tell them why not.

    And guess what, coco ?

    The accept that, and they also get 10 minutes of how Scots like them are being lied to by WM.

    Easy convertion method.

  120. Legerwood says:

    Artyhetty @ 10.21 PM

    I don’t think it was the Firth of Forth that was dredged for shale oil. West Lothian was the place where shale oil was extracted from the 1850s onwards. You can still see the bings particularly from the train going into Edinburgh.

    The extraction of the shale oil meant that Scotland, for a few years at least, was the largest oil-producer in the World.

    The bings have become important structures in their own right especially the ecology of the sites

  121. Thepnr says:

    UK politics are now into the Twilight Zone. Really they are 🙂

  122. Shug says:

    Despite everything i still come across people saying “I am British first” and i just cant getmy head around it

  123. chicmac says:

    “I don’t think it was the Firth of Forth that was dredged for shale oil. West Lothian was the place where shale oil was extracted from the 1850s onwards. You can still see the bings particularly from the train going into Edinburgh.”

    Correct. It was underground coal seams which were mined out under the Firth of Forth.

    The ‘fracking’ they want to do in Scotland is actually extraction from Scotland’s historic and massive coal seam system across much of the Central belt. ‘Fracking’ is in apostrophes because although the techniques used are very similar to shale rock fracking, it is not fracking per se.

    The coal seam extraction, while cheaper to do, is far dirtier environmentally, largely because of the high sulphur content in coal deposits. Not to mention the huge potential for subsidence.

    Scotland’s historic shale oil industry, after ‘Paraffin’ Young’s ingenuity, is a played out thing of the past although it did give birth to the petro-chemical industry.

  124. crazycat says:


    If anyone is swithering about whether to go to Airdrie tomorrow to hear Jason McCann, it should be well worth it.

    He’s just given a talk to us in Kilmarnock – standing room only – well-presented, interesting, and thought-provoking.

    I’m sure the rest of his tour (not just Airdrie) will be equally rewarding. So if you are near one of his venues, I’d recommend going if you can.

  125. crazycat says:

    ps – Jason’s talk in Airdire is now of course later today, Wednesday.

  126. defo says:

    Liz g
    Fife has a nice wee Neuk 🙂

  127. boris says:

    I am wondering if the Tory party is ready to be led by an “unmarried mother !!!! given the historic and current condemnation of such mothers by senior members of the party.

    Time for a look back to Tory Party leaders pronouncements against unmarried mothers and Party policies directed at punishing unfortunate young woman who had babies out of wedlock.

  128. Liz g says:

    geeo @ 11.29
    Well I bloody well hope so,but I do worry they would let their population starve to fund them… May be we shouldn’t be the enablers of that either?
    Defo @ 12.15
    Ehm… Well,,, Lucky old Fife… “I think”..
    Do tell

  129. TJenny says:

    crazycat – I hivnea a clue who Jason McCann is. I googled and refs are he’s a serial killer ‘Jason McCann was the character played by Justin Bieber on CSI: Las Vegas’,

    A wee bit background would be helpful.

  130. Colin Alexander says:


    It’s Mr Alexander to you.

    “Why not?” I can tell you my theory why the SNP haven’t yet called indyref2.

    The SNP had no intentions of calling indyref2 at any time during 2016-21. It was never planned or expected to happen.

    Indyref2 in the manifesto was a token gesture. The SNP put conditions to it that they never expected to come to pass, such as EU Leave win where Scotland votes Remain. The SNP had adopted a gradualism view to Scottish sovereignty. That we’d be permitted to exercise our sovereignty a little bit more over the years through growing devolution powers.

    They never campaigned for indy. Never prepared the groundwork for indy. One token discussion paper in four years – another sop to those who want a real Scottish Govt instead of a UK colonial one.

    The UK Govt have electronic surveillance, spies and infiltration of the SNP and Scot Govt. UK Govt knew the SNP were unprepared and not really wanting another indyref and all the indyref talk was hot air.

    The SNP are now desperately scrambling to try and prepare something credible, if they can’t hold back the YES supporters’ tide for indyref2, especially when No Deal Brexit looks more and more likely with every passing day.

    The SNP expected growing devolution, growing power and influence at Holyrood and WM for the SNP. Instead that’s all been blown away. Killed stone dead by EVEL, the Continuity Bill being killed off by the unelected Lords, devolution power grab and Brexit.

    The SNP have found out their Holyrood devolution stronghold was built on unionist sand; unsure foundations that could come crashing down any time the UK want them to, just like many other of the building projects under Tony Blair’s Labour Govt.

    Devolution promises turned out to be as fake as the Iraq War dossier promoting the case for war.

    The FM knows, if she does not call indyref 2 or deliver something better, support for the SNP and her as leader will crash. The pro-indy movement will split from the SNP who are led and controlled by the NS faction of “creeping devolution first”.

  131. Thepnr says:


    His full name is Jason Michael McCann or @Jeggit as he’s known on twitter.

  132. Thepnr says:

    “The FM knows, if she does not call indyref 2 or deliver something better, support for the SNP and her as leader will crash. The pro-indy movement will split from the SNP who are led and controlled by the NS faction of “creeping devolution first”.”

    That’s a pure belter Colin, probably one of your best yet, I don’t see you I smell you first. You’re shitin yourself hahaha.

  133. All the frustration of waiting on the starting gun for indyref2, combined with all the madness of Brexit to endure. It’s tough.

    If you’re thinking of having a dram to ease your woes, who could blame you. Just make sure it’s not a Glenfiddich.

    £200,000 to Better Together

  134. ronnie anderson says:

    Thepnr what ah load of convoluted shit from that tosser .

  135. msdidi says:

    Here is a link to Jasons blog (Nana often links to him)…..this one is where he explains why he has decided to tour Scotland to spread the YES message.

  136. ronnie anderson says:

    crazycat did yous hiv free Tea/Coffee n Biscuits like we wull hiv in Airdrie lol ( ah only shop at Aldi ) an they kin eat them or go without lol

  137. Thepnr says:

    @ronnie anderson

    Sure is and it pure stinks so it does. Smelly Colin.

  138. Colin Alexander says:


    I’m disappointed about the wasted years between 2014 till now.

    Still hoping that the people of Scotland will lead us – dragging the SNP – to independence.

    Forget White Papers with a million and one policies about how an indy Scotland could be.

    It’s really comes down to a basic principle:

    Should Scotland’s people run Scotland


    Should Scotland be controlled by the House of Lords and others who don’t care about Scotland and her people and who the people of Scotland don’t elect and cannot un-elect.

  139. Colin Alexander says:

    I think Alex / Thepnr has already downed the Glenfiddich along with Ronnie Anderson.

    Both have resorted to childish insults. Converting the unionists to YES with childish gutter talk? hahaha. Pathetic.

    What an embarrassment to the indy movement when you resort to such childish behaviour. How can people take other stuff you say seriously when you talk like big weans at times.

    Grow up. It’s still possible, even at your advanced years.

    I’m out of the Wings school playground. The school bullies can keep it. Goodnight.

  140. Dr Jim says:

    I bet he comes back in a minute

  141. Heart of Galloway says:

    For people so opposed to legalizing mind altering drugs, Tory MPs tonight appeared to have taken copious amounts. How else to explain being told at 12 pm by Michel Barnier that ‘negotiations are finished’ then vote to attempt, eh, to reopen negotiations with the man who had just told you he’d be doing no such thing.
    The EU bent over backwards to help May secure her precious deal, you know, the ‘It’s this deal or no deal’ one, only for her to stick two fingers in their eyes and demand that self-same deal be ripped up.
    Yet the BBC somehow managed to portray May’s sordid arrangement with the ERG to get the Brady amendment over the line as a ‘victory’. Which was of course as entirely deliberate as it was loathsome. The state broadcaster is complicit in portraying the EU as the bad guys, when in the real world everyone with more than two functioning brain cells knows Europe has been open and honest from the start.
    It has been May and her squalid succession of Brexit bully boys who have deceived and lied from day 1 – perfidious Albion writ large indeed.
    Not long now before Scotland fights to take her place in the world. And I believe we will have a fair wind from Europe behind us.

  142. TJenny says:

    Thepnr, I am aware of @Jeggit on twitter, but even there his bio states he’s Jason Michael, which might have rung a bell, but not the McCann name. Anyhoo, sure it’ll be a worthwhile gig.

  143. msdidi says:

    Jason will be the guest speaker at an event titled ‘Re-Energising The YES Campaign to be held by YES Perth City, in the Grampian Hotel, on the 14th March. 7.00pm Free Admission

  144. Dr Jim says:

    Why on earth would any country agree to negotiate with the UK Prime Minister when she wholeheartedly agreed to the Backstop with the EU then argued black was white for it in parliament shouting down any opposition from that position then because she’s in danger of breaking up her own party completely reverses her position on the Backstop within weeks of agreeing to it

    It’s the perfect example of why the world does not trust the UK on anything they say, they lie and cheat on every agreement they’ve ever made with anybody and now I sincerely hope the EU together with the Republic of Ireland put their collective foot down hard in Theresa May’s face and do it very publicly and let’s see if the *British* press will show that on our TV screens

    These Brits need their arrogant Empire attitude slapped right off their faces then we’ll see what happens around three weeks from now

  145. Thepnr says:

    @Colin Alexander

    The only reason you come on this site is in the hope of depressing those that do support Independence. You’re comments are never positive in any way, you absolutely reek of negativity.

    In other words you and your posts positively stink!

  146. Dr Jim says:


    When you see yer man’s name it’s *Awww Naww no him again*

  147. Cubby says:

    Rock @9.41

    Hey Nostrabamus – missed you – not. What happened to your forecast of a snap Brexit that would catch out Sturgeon. In fact have any of your forecasts ever been correct. Oh thats right most of them were hundreds of years in the future.

  148. Dr Jim says:

    Robin McAlpine says we need a ten year plan for Independence

    When I said five years ago I didn’t care for this guy everybody had a go at me, I said the same thing about Bella Caledonia, if people aren’t going to be persuaded soon we’ll have nothing left worth persuading them over

    If we allow the Tories to carry on Scotland’ll be like Mad Max country in ten years time

  149. Liz g says:

    Ronnie Anderson @ 12.45
    Aye bit, yer no givin oot the post code Ronnie???
    They tea and biscuits wull no be really pit tae the test unless and until I have checked them oot…
    Crazycat and I wull then compare notes at the night oot.
    Dae ye dare post that post code Ronnie…well dae ye???

  150. Dr Jim says:

    I think most of us know in terms of journalism in Westminster Faisal Islam is a reasonable reporter so remember when he said on SKY TV “The only person with a plan is Nicola Sturgeon First Minister of Scotland* and the Lady news reporter said “I don’t know what to say to that” and went to the adverts

    Faisal’s still saying it and he’s still right and they’re still going to the adverts

  151. Confused says:

    bella, to me – is the cringe in its essence

    – they are trying to peddle a brand of scottish nationalism which is acceptable to english liberals who read the guardian and every article is some kind of problem, some kind of self flagellation – anxiety inducing – and the positive side of things is always some vague folderol – give us independence oh lord, but not yet …

    – I was watching that youtube vid about Norway’s coastal infrastructure program – $47B they are spending … I will think on that this summer when I am pootering about the single track roads in Applecross or waiting for the ferry to Eriskay …
    – no reason why we couldn’t have “nice things”

    If Robin McAlpine was a Bolshevik in 1918 he would shout

    “ALL POWER TO THE SOVIETS … in around 1925 or 26, once we get a solid movement together …”

  152. yesindyref2 says:

    In the next thrilling instalment Boudicca – Boudicca herself – appears in the House of Commons urging them all to fight off the Romans. Bercow has her escorted out the chamber.

  153. carjamtic says:

    As is normal a well balanced,thought out post from the Rev.

    We all probably agree that something needs to be done,however in order to put a plan in place,first Scotland needs it’s Independence.

    To allow the upsucking finances to be directed into renewables etc.

    “Every 2 minutes the Energy reaching the Earth from the Sun is equivalent to the annual usage of all Humanity”

    There is no time to lose.

  154. schrodingers cat says:

    Brian Doonthetoon says:
    RE: Climate Change.

    I’m alright jack

    i live in a top flat 🙂

  155. jockmcx says:

    Moridura…”this channel does not exist”…what happened?

  156. Rod Cameron says:

    PLEASE – don’t let postal votes be counted in england, again!

  157. Breeks says:

    Maybe we should just give up on Europe. The way things are going I’m going to be too embarrassed to show my face there anyway.

    The UK doesn’t have a government, it has a cosmic gravitational black hole that is sucking everything positive, creative and ambitious out of the UK and when it’s finished there will nothing left but a barren grey moonscape of despair and misery where everybody hates everybody else just for breathing.

    Scotland had its chance to escape, but instead of dignified rebellion like an aggrieved and long put upon Nation, choosing life and liberty, head held high and a warm smile on its face, it rebelled like a minor nonessential department in a Corporate HQ, and faltered when too few swelled to the insipid beige flags of the Mouse Revolution.

    58 days.

    Good title for a book. I wonder if it will be about the rebirth of a Nation or the death of one.

    Have a heart eh? Revoke Article 50. At least fucking try.

  158. Petra says:

    Spot on Liz g at 11:12pm ……

    My “red lines” are Trident and fracking. There’s been hundreds of accidents at Faslane / Coulport over the last few years. The ones that they tell us about that is. How bad is it going to get when following Brexit the MoD budget gets cut again? I’m also wondering where the 1000 defence workers, who are heading to Scotland, will be located?

  159. Iain says:

    So it is a hard brexit, the torys will get rebuffed by Europe and the uk will run down the clock.
    Then we can get Scotland independant as England slides into chaos.

  160. Petra says:

    De Gaulle knew them so well. And if anyone out there still supports the Labour Party, think again.

    WGD: ‘The Red, White and Blue Unicorn Tattoo.’

  161. Heart of Galloway says:

    Breaks, normally I read your posts with alacrity but increasingly ‘stuck record’ springs to mind. Like almost everyone on here I am ill with anticipation waiting for the chance to ‘put it to the test.’ This time we must win and we can only do that if the British state is so stripped of credibility and reason that it’s default position of an arrogant bully harking back to an imperial past is exposed for all to see.
    That is happening right now and it is a very ugly sight. On the other hand, the Scottish Government’s position of holding close to the EU to secure our place there through IR2 has slowly but surely won over the former no voters we need to win. Now is not the time for throwing the toys out of the pram.

  162. Giving Goose says:

    Watching the reactions from EU politicians this morning made me feel all warm and glowing.

    The British are the bullys in this and the EU are telling the bully where to go!

  163. Sinky says:

    Still no mention on BBC or MSM that all Labour and Lib Dem Mps voted against the SNP amendment pointing out that Scotland voted remain and opposing Brexit.

    This is what the Indy movement is up against.

  164. Dorothy Devine says:

    I hope that everyone on here has NEVER stopped promoting independence , NEVER stopped chatting at bus stops , NEVER stopped informing folk – the ‘gun’ to start was fired years ago.

    I get cheesed off reading ‘c’mon Nicola’ ‘ we’re bored waiting’ ‘SNP missing the bus’ – remember SOVREIGN people!

  165. Petra says:

    The BBC is focusing on the impact of Brexit on NIreland, as Scotland never gets a look in. I’ve also been reading of a couple of cases whereby English people living in Scotland had gone to Court complaining of racial discrimination.

    Meanwhile the Scots, a minority race in the UK, as a whole are being discriminated against by the English Government / Establishment, including Queenie.

  166. Sinky says:

    Brexit being discussed on BBC Radio Scotland Morning Call at 9 a.m. Could point out that Tory Labour and Lib Dems failed to support SNP amendment extending Article 50 and pointing out Scotland voted Remain and that Scotland should not be taken out of the EU against our will.

    Contact details

    Phone 0500 92 95 00

    Sms 80295



    Twitter @bbcradioscot

  167. Macart says:

    So yeah, yesterday was all about theatre and more can kicking. Oh, and Ms May reneged on her own withdrawal agreement. It was also farcical and embarrassing. The end result? Another fortnight to cut a new, nu, noo-er plan with the EU, that they couldn’t do over a two year period.

    No. I’d be fairly sceptical too.

    Reaction from the EU so far? Well, naturally less than impressed.

    And yes, the SNP amendment – ‘the government to seek an extension to Article 50, rule out a no deal Brexit and not take the people of Scotland out of the EU against their will.’ -was rejected out of hand.

    WHEN we get the opportunity? I think Scotland’s electorate should thank the folk behind what was Better Together appropriately.

  168. Iain mhor says:

    @Dorothy Devine
    You’re bang on there Dorothy. I don’t stop conversing or campaigning, but during this Brexit crap, if I hear “UK wide” vote one more time I might go spare.
    There is a big difference between UK wide and UK – A UK wide vote means a majority in the UK, means an English vote (same as every GE) A UK vote was a draw.
    I plug away at that and had a few grudging acknowledgements, at least it easily leads into a conversation about what the UK is – but jeez it’s a sair fecht.
    As for Hard No voters – definitely do not waste your time. I’ve heard all the twisted logic, denials of reality and fruit-loopery I can take in a lifetime. There are some lucid NO voters out there, but by far the majority have their door key on a string around their neck.

  169. Robert Louis says:

    It is all very good to talk of folk should be campaigning for independence, but that has NOT been the focus of the SNP. You will not get the momentum required for substantial indy polling changes until a referendum is called.

    People on here watch politics closely, but ordinary folk miss most of it. So far as they are concerned independence is NOT on the agenda at present. It is a theoretical thing which the SNP talk about – on rare occasions. Once a referendum is actually called, I and others like me would work to help us win. But it needs the referendum called. Then and only then will the public start to really notice.

    Scotland is currently, and has been for the last two years been treated like a piece of sh** on Theresa May’s shoe, yet still the SNP leadership are waiting for what they euphamistically call ‘clarity’. Things could NOT be clearer, Scotland will in a matter of weeks be forcibly dragged out of the EU, wholly against its clear wishes. How much clearer does it need to be?? Seriously.

    Westminster is an utter joke right now, and the SNP should be capitalising on it. Instead I see people like Stephen Gethins still talking of how the SNP needs to work with other parties to help get a brexit deal. Those are the same parties that yesterday couldn’t be bothered even listening to the SNP leader in the HoC. Perhaps Mr Gethins has been in the Westminster bubble too long. His focus should be independence for Scotland, not saving England from its own stupidity.

    None of this will end on brexit day, none of this will become clear, their will be continual wrangling for at least the next ten years, maybe longer. In that context, their is no ‘perfect’ time for calling indyref2, their will be no period of ‘stability’, or when things are settled.

    You say the ‘gun’ to start was fired years ago, well, all I can say is somebody needs to tell the First Minister. Call the referendum, for heavens sake. People are crying out for hope, so if not now, then when? WHEN??

  170. Dorothy Devine says:

    Iain Mhor, aye it can get frustrating and the desire to put a fist in a mooth can get awfy strong , but non violence is best!

    My TV is no longer in danger as I stopped watching BBBC Scotland , STV and any and all political output by same!

  171. wull2 says:

    There is no point of the SNP standing up for Scotland in WM, time for them not to sit there.

  172. Les Wilson says:

    For me, our oil needs to be drilled and profits maximised.
    We need to use that profit wisely, and yes a fund for the future. The money has so far sustained another country of 55 million people for 40 odd years. Scotland with only around 5.5 million would have huge funds available. Plus our profits from traditional industries.

    With that we need a plan for the benefit of our people way into the future. Money for our NHS to make it the best available anywhere,infrastructure across the board including our ports and our roads and bridges.More house building of all kinds. Better pensions for all, and effective social services, more money for councils for services,

    Developement of future industries along with innovative green ways of power generation and reduce energy costs for our population. Increase our arts and sports, open Scotland to increase trade and have the facilities to cope with that.
    Trident needs to go, nuclear power stations need to go, we will not need them.

    We are a very rich nation, all these things are possible we will have the money and the will, to do, all these things if we are independent and in control of our own world. Without the devious albatros of Westminster hanging round our neck.

    Well all that would be my idea of how a free Scotland can be, my only concern is when,

  173. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Brexit being discussed on BBC Radio Scotland Morning Call at 9 a.m.

    Could point out that Sovereign will of Scottish Electorate has been consistently ignored by Westminster constituting a Breach of the Treaty of Union.

    It’ll be the usual BritNat EssEnnPeeBaaad fest I presume.

  174. Colin Alexander says:

    @ Thepnr

    There has been little to be positive about re the SNP “leadership” these last four years if we are talking about promoting independence.

    Yet, support for independence has remained at least as high as in 2014, despite the unkept promise of an SNP campaign to promote it from summer 2016 onwards.

    Support for independence is definitely high enough that the UK Govt fear they could lose an indyref2, so will refuse a S30. Everybody and their dug knows that, so why the delay in formally requesting it and getting it refused???

    The people of Scotland give me hope because despite -or rather, because of – the ongoing abuses of power and broken promises by UK Parliament against Scotland, the desire for independence has not been crushed, instead it’s growing.

    Thank goodness for the Brexiteers, Tories and Labour for demonstrating to previous No voters how this union is so unfair, undemocratic and politically and economically bad for Scotland.

    Well done the UK Govt, UK Tories and UK Labour for demonstrating that they are much more incompetent than the SNP has ever been.

  175. Sinky says:

    Call Kaye still ignoring the Scottish Brexit dimension but then that’s what BBC Scotland does on a regular basis.

  176. Abulhaq says:

    Totally irrelevant in this English/N.Irish melée. Would a union with Yorkshire help? Possibly Scotland might then receive more attention.
    On the European mainland there has always been a certain perception of the English which is best summed up by shoulders shrugged and eyes rolling. Brexit has added a new one, throttling hands.

  177. Macart says:

    On the SNP and Mr Blackford’s speech in general? Whatever folk might think of the SNP, they are the third party of the UK, (by numbers), in the HoC. They are the largest party representing Scotland’s interests on the Scottish benches. They are the second largest party of the UK by membership and the only other signatory of the treaty which creates the entity known as the UK. You’d think that whilst you may not agree with that party. Might not want to hear what they have to say. Might not even like or respect the individuals. It’s pretty much your ‘day job’ to listen to their POV and concerns. Apparently not.

    That the party leadership of both the government and official opposition walked out because they couldn’t be arsed listening to Mr Blackford’s speech is beyond arrogant and ignorant. It’s condescending, patronising, dismissive and insulting. Not just to our representation, but to those who put them there to act as our voice. This is a house that supposedly prides itself on archaic tradition and propriety, by the by. A place where you get told off for clapping or using inappropriate language such as ‘liar’. But, y’know, it’s apparently okay to act like an arrogant twat towards those you deem lesser mortals.

    Still, one listens very carefully and the other is supposedly about kinder more honest politics. Uh huh!

    Mibbies me, but I’m not seeing the whole ‘lead with us’, ‘family of nations’, ‘respect agenda’ thing happening …. at all.

  178. Macart says:

    Should have appeared above as:

    ‘and they represent the only other signatory of the treaty which creates the entity known as the UK’.

    Fingers goin’ faster than wossiname. :blush:

  179. Petra says:

    Here we go again. Another day of SNP Baad.


    @ Robert Louis at 8:42am ………

    Why on earth are you waiting for Nicola Sturgeon to call IndyRef2 before you start campaigning, RL? Thousands of us across Scotland haven’t stopped doing so since 2014, and before of course.

    And I don’t know how you can say that the Scots don’t know that the SNP’s plan is to hold another referendum. Every time that Nicola Sturgeon has been “afforded” a few minutes airtime she’s stated categorically that she will be announcing news to that effect in the very near future.

    You say that, “Things could NOT be clearer.” Really? This situation changes on practically a daily basis, so, IMO, is still totally UNCLEAR. One thing that is CLEAR, is that if she had followed the advice of some on here, who have been spouting tommyrot since 2016, we would have lost the vote.

  180. Robert Peffers says:

    @ephemeraldeception says: 29 January, 2019 at 7:25 pm:

    ” … If we had just managed to get indy we would now be in a very strong position with rUK”

    What rUK would that be, ephemeraldeception?

    The United KINGDOM, is a bipartite union of KINGDOMS. As such when that UNION ends there is no rUnited Kingdom because it has just disunited.

    In any case the Treaty Of Union that begat the United Kingdom is, by definition, a treaty of equally sovereign kingdoms. That is, in able to legally sign an international treaty together, both the signatories must be equally sovereign. so the daft term rUK could just as well be applied to the Kingdom of Scotland.

    What Westminster legally is, the clue is in the name, is the United Kingdom Parliament. What Westminster legally becomes post the union ending is an illegal, not elected as such, Parliament of the Kingdom of England. The Kingdom of England signed the Treaty of union – not a United Kingdom of any sort. Neither Wales or Ireland were in a treaty with England in 1707. They were both just defeated in war and annexed by England under the rule of law of, “Divine Right of Kings”. A centuries long attempted fate that England attempted to inflict upon the Kingdom of Scotland – and failed.

  181. Luigi says:

    Petra says:

    30 January, 2019 at 9:38 am

    You say that, “Things could NOT be clearer.” Really? This situation changes on practically a daily basis, so, IMO, is still totally UNCLEAR. One thing that is CLEAR, is that if she had followed the advice of some on here, who have been spouting tommyrot since 2016, we would have lost the vote.

    Indeed. An indy campaign, if started now, would be completely swamped in the Brexit mayhem. FACT. And the BritNats would ramp things up further during an indy campaign. Fog of war.

    The Brexit dust has to settle first.

  182. Famous15 says:

    Easy peasy to sow alarm and despondency within the ranks on Wings.

    First kid on you support independence and try to sneak in some racism and hint of violence or some other nasty in your reason for support,

    Second shout out how ineffective the SG and NS is in gaining your pretendy goal.

    Third Job done.Back to the 77th Brigade for lunch. Eh Colin?

  183. Bob Mack says:


    I agree. Brexit is far from over at this moment. I think Nicola has to face them down tI’ll she sees the whites of their eyes.

    Going to the electorate and saying you honestly tried everything in the book to make Brexit a success for Scotland is much different than saying you just want indy.

    Brexit in all its probable no deal glory will really focus minds. The groundwork is being laid and the field of battle being selected. We have the high ground.

  184. mike cassidy says:

    For the impatient.

    After 2014 there was no chance of an indyref2 for years.

    Maybe even decades.

    It’s the result of the Brexit referendum that has created the opportunity for a possible indyref2.

  185. Nana says:

    Apologies, not many links this morning.

    From across the pond

    Spain to insist on excluding Gibraltar from any Brexit deal: sources

    A senior EU source has told @rtenews that during a phone call at 12pm Brussels time Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker told Theresa May there would be no reopening of the Irish backstop or the Withdrawal Agreement.

  186. Nana says:

    Sinn Féin leader @MaryLouMcDonald has said that the Taoiseach must remain absolutely firm & that there cannot be any renegotiation of the backstop.

    European Union refuses the UK government plans to remove it replace the Irish backstop. The European Parliament will veto the deal if London tries to dilute the agreement.

  187. mike cassidy says:


    Big fingers. Small phone.

    Nicola Sturgeon has had no choice but to take the politically cautious approach in order to reveal the extent of the ‘significant change in circumstances’.

    People using this site would have a referendum or a legal challenge every week.

    But out in the real world….

  188. K1 says:

    They’d have rushed through either a ge or extension of A50 if Nicola had called for ref before now.

    Make no mistake, as much as the smoke and mirrors are about ‘backstop’ and that is the narrative that is dominating the ongoing fudge, they know that any concessions they make toward keeping NI in the cu and sm, they will have an almighty battle wi Scotland as if NI can be an exception why not Scotland. Politcally ‘optics’ wise they haven’t an answer for that yet.

    In essence they are fucked if they do and fucked if they don’t find a solution to the ‘backstop’ wrt to Scotland. Hold, hold, hold.

  189. Capella says:

    Theresa May could revoke Article 50 any time up until 28th March. The Tories are keeping the fog thick and impenetrable for as long as possible.

    But as Ian Blackford spelt out, they have just threatened to break the Good Friday Agreement, which suits the DUP who welcome a hard BREXIT and a hard border with Ireland. They have just voted down Theresa May’s Withdrawal Agreement, negotiated over the last 2 years.

    Those above who assert that the path ahead is clear has far greater insight than me. Please do explain how the next two months will develop.

  190. Colin Alexander says:

    Robert Peffers

    Whether it would be rUK or England is not fact. You make a very good case asserting UK would revert to England / Scotland; UK Govt assert rUK / Scotland.

    It was taken to court for future reference whether Art 50 could be unilaterlly revoked. It could have been taken to court any time over the last four years or more about what would be the status of the UK /England / Scotland if Scotland declared independence / UK union dissolved.

    Does it matter? Aye, because UK Govt argues that Scotland becomes a “new state” breaking away from rUK, so rUK maintains the UK’s asset and political rights and Scotland disnae.

    It was a central theme of Project Fear in indyref1.

    So, instead of this having been settled, it’s still left to yourself and others to argue the toss about this.

  191. Nana says:

    Documents show UK govt was “in charge not just of the overall strategy of RBS GRG but also of decision-making on a day-to-day basis”

    How the truth and reality of ‘Theresa’s Triumph’ is being reported elsewhere; Germany is being told: ‘May has no strategy, she’s completely lost control and is playing for time using futile manoeuvres like those seen this evening’

  192. NorthSeaTowser says:

    I can’t believe those figures are accurate – there are North Sea installations, each producing hundreds of thousands of barrels, every day !

  193. geeo says:

    Do you practice being wrong, coco ?

    When Scotland DISSOLVES the treaty of Union, we ALSO dissolve the United Kingdom, as you cannot have a one signatory United Kingdom, as who the feck are you United WITH ??

    Even you can grasp such a simple reality.

    When the Treaty of Union is dissolved, the pre 1707 treaty statuses of Scotland and England will prevail.

    The Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England, shall revert to being INDEPENDENT entities.

    So YES, coco, it absolutely IS clarified, with ZERO requirement for further clarification today.

    You then state this and treat it as fact: “UK Govt argues that Scotland becomes a “new state” breaking away from rUK”.

    Utter pish gibbering at every level.

    For one, you seperate Uk and Scotland by saying this: “UK Govt argues that Scotland…”

    By doing this, you ignore the fact that Scotland IS AS MUCH the Uk as England (legally equal partners) so it is impossible for the ‘uk gov’ to argue against Scotland, as the Scottish equal share of the Uk would then be arguing against itself.

    Scotland cannot ‘break away’ from the uk as we would be breaking away from ourselves, since we are EQUAL uk forming partners with England.

    You END a Treaty, not break away from it.

    As usual, you show your British Nationalist colours, coco, you ignore established legal fact (Treaty of Union as the ACTUAL UK constitution) and actively present WM unionist propoganda as the font of factual wisdom, without question.

    Robert and others, are not ‘arguing the toss’ on this issue, he (and others) are STATING THE FACTS to educate people and highlighting the utter gibbering pish from folk like yourself, is exactly that.

  194. yesindyref2 says:

    Brexit is as clear as an east coast haar.

  195. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Colin Alexander

    I think you will find, post-Independence, England, rather like Miss Havisham in Great Expectations, continuing to wear her wedding dress of deference to Royalty, Trident submarines and imperial delusions, living in her ruined mansion.

    Or, maybe Scotland will have to, like Mr Rochester, keep her former spouse – England – under lock and key in the attic, to save the deluded creature from herself.

    It would suit England to try to have Scotland viewed as a new state and to insist that England still mattered.

    I fear, sans Empire, friends – apart from the Donald, and with waning influence, our departure will hit England very hard indeed.

    And you know what – Hell mend them.

  196. Colin Alexander says:


    It must be fact, cos you said it on Wings???

    If you say on here the moon is nade of porridge, it becomes a fact?

    Nothing is a legal fact until it’s accepted to be so by all parties or a court rules it to be so.

  197. robbo says:

    I’m with Wallace “Hold” “Hold” “Hold”

    The EU must “Hold” – do not trust the British Nationalists!

  198. yesindyref2 says:

    Seems a good time to put this out again:

    Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: It is nice to have something on which to disagree with the noble Lord. In 1603, we had the union of the Crowns. In 1707, we had the union of the Parliaments. The kingdom of Scotland and the kingdom of England ceased to exist in 1707 because the United Kingdom was created. Therefore, it is illiterate as well as misleading to suggest that there would still be a United Kingdom. If Scotland were to leave the United Kingdom, the United Kingdom would cease to exist. Whether or not the monarch went on to become the head of Scotland as head of state, the relationship would be similar to that enjoyed by Canada and Australia, but it would certainly not mean that the United Kingdom continues. For many people this may seem a kind of historical fact, but it is very important that we understand this, particularly when we have people in high office who seem determined to mislead people. I repeat that if Scotland leaves the United Kingdom, there will be no United Kingdom. I do not know what a kingdom represented by England, Ireland and Wales would be called.

    Forsyth is an ex-SOS for Scotland, and a Unionist to boot. But he is precise and insisits on preciseness.

  199. sassenach says:

    “Colin Alexander says:
    30 January, 2019 at 12:26 am

    It’s Mr Alexander to you.”

    So, our Britnat stooge requires us to be more formal in addressing him, and I’m sure we all understand and feel his pain – give coco the clown the respect he deserves!

  200. Colin Alexander says:


    Ta for that. Again an interesting OPINION.

    I’m no saying it’s wrong. That’s for a court to rule on.

    Here’s a thought: There is only UK govt. so who does the negotiating if UK Govt and devolved UK Scot govt cease to exist bacause the union is declared dissolved?

  201. Kangaroo says:

    For those of you still wondering what is happening.

    NS said months ago that we are now entering the ‘End Game’.

    We are now DEEP in the end game. The mystical indyref2 will be called very soon. Expect to be voting before 29 Mar 19 because that is the date of Maximum Pressure, both on Westminster and on Scottish voters. This is very important to bear in mind as a read through Sun Tzu “The Art of War” would soon tell you.

    So footsoldiers better campaign for real as this one is going to be very short and sharp. Again helps to maximise the pressure.

    Everything will appear obvious in the next few days as it is for me already, hence the above comments.


  202. yesindyref2 says:

    It’s Mr yesindyref2 to you.

  203. Breeks says:

    mike cassidy says:
    30 January, 2019 at 10:03 am
    For the impatient.

    After 2014 there was no chance of an indyref2 for years.

    Maybe even decades.

    It’s the result of the Brexit referendum that has created the opportunity for a possible indyref2.

    Correct Mike. But that’s the water colour version.

    The in-your-face graffiti tag on the wall version is that Brexit doesn’t just create an opportunity to hold a pleasant and orderly referendum, overruling Scotland’s Remain Majority constitutes a flagrant attempt to subjugate the will of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereign… the people.

    We “ought” to be fighting that tooth and nail with reckless ferocity and tenacity, ignoring warnings we risk going too far rather than fretting and getting uptight about warnings for doing do little, and running out of time to do anything.

    I don’t meant we run about the streets waving Claymores and pitchforks, but that we give an almighty bloody nose in the law courts to anybody who dares to overrule or compromise our Constitutional Sovereignty.

    Even if such an action failed, although be confident and assured it wouldn’t fail, bringing the case alone would be a lightning conductor for disseminating the knowledge and realisation that Scotland has strength, potency, and Constitutional legitimacy, which our cradle to grave “British” indoctrination has tried to suppress for generations.

    Our Country is currently fighting for it’s life as surely as if there were tanks and planes assaulting our beaches. It’s just another form of subjugation, but ultimately subjugation just the same.

  204. Auld Rock says:

    Artyhetty. There was no pipeline from Glasgow to the Forth, the pipeline ran from the specially constructed deep-water terminal on the shore of Long Long on the Firth of Clyde at Finnart and piped to Grangemouth. Pipeline is still there and I believe still in use. Reason for Finnart was it was a very deep Fjord where the biggest tankers could dock, whereas the Forth is shallow by comparison.

  205. Liz g says:

    Well I’m just wondering if the SNP have sneaked one in under the wire…
    Up until last night we have been told that leaving the EU was a UK wide vote in a non binding Referendum,and that was the top and bottom of it because we voted to be a part of the UK.

    But now what we have is the Westminster Parliament having voted on the Actual question, “Scotland shouldn’t be taken out of the EU without it’s consent”?
    It could be argued that we are now being taken out of the EU against our will by a vote of the UK Parliament.
    UK Parliament voted are binding ( while we are part of the Union),and last night’s question wasn’t vague,it was explicit!
    It said We shouldn’t be taken out of the EU against our will.
    And the UK Parliament voted that yes we should.
    Has a vote that so Directly tells Scotland Westminster will act against our will ever happened before?

  206. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    I thought the same thing. It’s now on record 🙂

    It was a three-parter I think, so “sneaked one in” is quite likely.

  207. Craig P says:

    The mad bit is the Greens don’t go for the UK government, the ones who are actually extracting the oil *right now*.

    Garrion says:
    29 January, 2019 at 6:09 pm>

    be prepared for a sudden rise in prominence of Orkney sovereigntists in the media.

    We could always false flag the false flaggers. Set up an astroturf fascist party (Orkney Dawn) and start banging on about repatriating Europeans, remaining in the Precious Union, and constructing an air base at Dounby to repel the Russians. If the media go for it, maybe tout a wee invasion of Faroe.

  208. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 10.57
    I’ve also heard Forsyth,caution not to hold the EU referendum.
    He said “If the UK leave the EU, Scotland will go”!
    Only time I ever agreed with the man.

  209. Clydebuilt says:

    “We struggle to understand why people seeking independence for Scotland would want to tie lead weights around its neck the moment it was achieved”

    Sounds as if these people don’t really want independence for Scotland. They might as well be employed by Westminister.
    A bunch of them invaded Holyrood last week , claiming that by setting a zero carbon date for Scotland at 2050 that meant the Scot Gov were allowing oil to be extracted up until 2050. As if the Scot Gov. Has any control over oil extraction.

    This focus on Scotlands oil looks like a new attack line on Scottish independence.

  210. mountain shadow says:

    Does anyone know exactly what the First Minister is waiting on before pulling the Indyref2 trigger?

    Things cannot get worse than this surely? The hard line Tory Brexiteers and their DUP masters have won.

    Get on with it!

  211. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    He may be on the other side but is astute and has said a few interesting things. Maybe he could be weaned over to a YES vote 🙂

  212. Ian Brotherhood says:

    ‘Should SNP MPs now leave the Commons?’

    Yes 65%
    No 7%
    Not yet 28%

    That’s after 2,194 votes. Remains open until Friday midnight but probably won’t shift much unless something pure mental happens…

  213. yesindyref2 says:

    @mountain shadow
    I think most of us know what the FM is waiting for, because we’re still in a position where the UK could:

    1). Cancel Brexit completely by revoking Article 50
    2). Go to a GE, Corbyn hasn’t ruled that out, and apart from making things uncertain, it would get in the way of Indy Ref 2
    3). Get a delay to the Brexit date of March 29th for some reason

    Any of those would leave the FM with egg on her face, and she knows it fine.

  214. Kangaroo says:

    mountain shadow @ 11:27am

    Yes I do know what NS is waiting on and why.

    See my post at 11:08.

  215. Famous15 says:



  216. Kangaroo says:

    Apologies for being so vague. I would rather just blurt it out, but then that would not be good given the mixture of people who read WoS.

  217. mountain shadow says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    30 January, 2019 at 11:31 am
    @mountain shadow
    I think most of us know what the FM is waiting for, because we’re still in a position where the UK could:

    1). Cancel Brexit completely by revoking Article 50
    2). Go to a GE, Corbyn hasn’t ruled that out, and apart from making things uncertain, it would get in the way of Indy Ref 2
    3). Get a delay to the Brexit date of March 29th for some reason

    Any of those would leave the FM with egg on her face, and she knows it fine.
    But time is up.

    The time has come.

  218. galamcennalath says:

    @Liz g

    I agree that the SNP amendment appears to be a setup to get WM to explicitly vote against the will of the Scottish people.

    Another observation. In the past two weeks SNP politicians, in the context of Brexit, have reiterated that Scotland may need to chose our own alternative future. Nothing new, but the concentration of statements all saying the same thing appears to be intentional.

    I sense pieces are being moved into position.

  219. Golfnut says:

    @ Clyde built.

    ‘ The focus on Scotland’s oil…..

    I tend to agree with that assessment, but I would perhaps add that there is also an element of trying to be relevant.

  220. So the greens are continuing to refuse to budge from their position of not supporting the Scottish Government’s budget.

    Unless their demands are met,they are increasingly beginning to sound and behave more like Tory and Labour Brexiteers, who are demanding the EU accede to their demands.

    If the greens continue to refuse to support the Scottish Government’s budget and it results in an election, I hope they are electorally wiped out.

    Meanwhile as for the shenanigans at Westminster, what more can be said,I am impatient too for indy ref2, but I believe the current situation has to be played out.

    Because there will be people in Scotland who may still
    Believe that Westminster can pull a rabbit out of a hat, and things won’t be as bad as has been predicted.

  221. HandandShrimp says:

    On the Indy radio thing. I have one of those Alexa thingies still in its box from when I retired. I understand I can’t get the Indy radio on my dab radio but can I get it on the Alexa gizmo and if so how?

  222. call me dave says:


    They call me ‘Mr yesindyref2’ 🙂 I like that.
    But lots of Joe public folk darn Sarf on radio 5 saying that the 27 are bluffing and it’ll be OK.

    Irish red herring etc. etc. and F*@k Scotland!

  223. Golfnut says:

    @ Colin Alexander.

    Who negotiates.

    The Monarch can always appoint commissioners, after all that’s what happened ‘re the Treaty of Union.

    The problem really isn’t who negotiates for Scotland, Holyrood is the reconvened Parliament of Scotland, Westminster isn’t the Parliament of England however and it would be for Scotland to decide whether to recognise Westminster competence to negotiate on England’s behalf. Ironic or what.

  224. geeo says:

    Mr coco says: “Nothing is a legal fact until it’s accepted to be so by all parties or a court rules it to be so”

    Unless it is an internationally recognised Treaty which FORMED a new political entity…!!!

    The treaty of Union is a LEGAL FACT.

    The legal equality of the biparate partners of the Treaty, is a LEGAL FACT.

    As for court decisions, they get reversed all the time.

    The treaty of Union remains a stone cold legal fact.

    Poor effort (Mr) coco. Must try harder.

  225. Liz g says:

    galamacennalath @ 10.50
    Wouldn’t it be nice if Ian Blackford stood up today at PMQs namesake up with that we will not put…And walked out..LOL

  226. geeo says:

    @call me dave 11.54am

    Which just highlights the difference in public awareness of political machinations between Scotland and ‘dan sarf’.

  227. Liz g says:

    and said…duh

  228. galamcennalath says:

    De Volkskrant newspaper, Netherlands … “The MPs are unable to agree about much and were making more noise than the proponents and opponents of Brexit who were protesting outside. The Scots do not want a Brexit at all, Labour wants to keep one leg in the EU, the Brexiteers want to go into battle against the EU like Don Quixote, and the Northern Irish unionists want to drag as much money out of London as possible.”

    Everybody is aware of the Scottish situation in all this mess. Let’s all hope that when the critical time comes our ‘friends’ across the EU back up up!

  229. yesindyref2 says:

    Ah! Ahura Mazda and Zoroastrianism. Sorry I was slow, got a real bad bed-bound bug.

  230. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 11.22
    Wouldn’t go that far 🙂

  231. Colin Alexander says:

    Formally asking for an S30 is completelty different from actually announcing a date for indyref2.

  232. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Yesterday’s WGD in the National will be kept as will today’s offering from Kevin McKenna. McKenna,whose article last week described independence as an “absolute necessity” this week lays waste the Labour Party. “Labour prove their complete hopelessness at every turn” is as he heads it and he doesn’t miss and hit the wall as he contnues in the same vein. Daily Record chips in with “Corbyn’s utter failure as a opposition leader.”

    Mail and Express on a different planet of course and obviously written for halfwits.

    I have worked out why much of the mainstream media treats its audience as halfwits. That’s because they are.
    Had a short conversation with a gent with his Daily Mail under his arm as I collected my papers this morn.
    He was gloating, (Is that a good Scots Word?) “She’s done it ” he crowed. “She’s got her deal through.”
    “No ” I said “She hasn’t. That one’s dead in Parliament. She’s away to Europe to try to persuade them to change the deal to try to save her own skin. They’ve already told her they won’t. You are being deceived.”

    He just looked at me. Like many he has absolutely no idea about any of it.

  233. John Wood says:

    I am sorry to see this anti-Green tirade and the nasty, ad hominem comments posted about Patrick Hardie and the SGP.
    We Greens support Scottish independence. It does not depend on oil and gas to be successful. Our future depends on moving away from dependence oil and gas right now. Scotland could simply sit on and bank its resources and let others squander theirs. In time, when Scottish oil is all that’s left and the price is sky high, but there will still be demand for specialist chemical industry uses (assuming there is anyone left to buy it) it will be an investment worth having.
    Meanwhile, we have massive capacity for climate friendly renewables and that is where the smart investment is going at the moment. In the US investment in solar has outstripped investment in oil.

    We can lead by example. We can build up enormous international respect and we can build an export market in renewable technology.

    To say that if we don’t flog off our oil someone else will just fill the gap is exactly the same argument as is always put forward for the arms trade. It doesn’t wash. Let others provide Israel and Saudi Arabia and Burma with weapons. ‘Money doesn’t talk, it swears’ (Bob Dylan).

    Oil is a noose around our neck, just as it is for poor Venezuela, Iraq, Iran, etc. It is the main reason why the UK and its US master will never allow us our independence because they wants it, preciousss

  234. Golfnut says:

    @ John Wood.

    Doesn’t appear to be a noose round Norway’s neck.

  235. K1 says:

    So basically Corbyn is ‘now’ going to argue with May for what the SNP has argued for since the start, cu and sm?

    I mean do they not see that we ‘see’ them?

  236. Marie Clark says:

    John Wood, it’s a shame “we green supporters” cannae get Patrick Harvie’s name right. Might help.

  237. crazycat says:

    @ TJenny

    Sorry for not being more explicit about Jason’s talk – a link had been posted several times to the Airdrie event, and I was too lazy to look for it to include in my post.

    It’s been posted again now, and other people have completed my missing explanation.

    @ Ronnie

    Of course we had free tea, coffee and cakes. The cakes were home-made; no need for us to go to Aldi. (There are some left.)

  238. geeo says:

    @john wood.

    Just for clarity.

    You are sad to see attacks on the Greens for forwarding action which could bring down the Scottish Government, at a time of monumental importance for the independence cause you state that the Greens support ?

    Is that the argument you are putting forward here, and appealing for people to stop being angry about, seriously ?

    Good luck with that.

  239. Referendum1707 says:

    John Wood 12.47

    “It is the main reason why the UK and its US master will never allow us our independence because they wants it, preciousss” (my bold)

    Yeh dream on pal.

  240. bittie45 says:

    My next door neighbour who works in a Norwegian oilfield told me the other day that had Scotland been in charge of the oil resources in the 1970’s, we would today have a larger oil fund than the Norwegians!

    As for the argument that the oil industry is no longer needed in the face of renewable energy, that is plainly wrong as we do not need to burn the oil, but can use it for other purposes such as plastics, and if used wisely will keep us going indefinitely.

    And before anyone moans about the evils of plastic, and how our oceans are full of degraded plastic particles, may I just note that is entirely up to our politicians to fix (but up to us to instruct them). It is totally inefficient for each and every household to wash and sort waste plastics into the appropriate bin. Just how much hot water and detergent (and time) is being wasted in this so-called green measure, as well as unwashed or wrongly sorted plastics messing up the entire concept.

    One solution would be heavy fines or jail for anyone found polluting rivers/ seas with plastic, coupled with one or two massive but efficient NATIONAL recycling centres which industrially wash and sort plastics. The remaining mixed plastics being reconstituted back into oil through high pressure and microwave (the technology has been around for years). Such centres being very expensive initially to set up, but so what! – we are protecting our environment. And with such processing plants becoming cheaper as experience and technology improves over time, who knows – they might even turn a profit. Rubbish is currently a wasted resource.

    What we need is planning at a national level, something which it sadly appears can only happen once Scotland gains her independence!

  241. Graeme Attkins says:

    Easiest thing to do is put 10% of annual profits aside as a prize to the first company that comes up with a cheap, effective renewable energy that works in all environments.

    It needs to be cheap for developing countries to take it up, eg India, where they are about to start building coal-powered power plants.

  242. Muscleguy says:

    Instead of leaving what we incontrovertibly know is there we could follow New Zealand’s recent lead and ban further exploration. Leaving the hypothetic and possible reserves in the ground for future generations who might well have different and better things to do with it than to burn it for fuel due to better technologies. If instead we go on to extract every last drop of the stuff what are we bequeathing to future generations and what example are we showing to them.

  243. geeo says:


    There is a temptation to leave the majority of the remaining oil in the ground (once we remove enough to benefit our newly independent Scotland by using it to drive towards 100% renewable energy and much needed infrastructure bonanza) just to wave it in WM’s face, at a time when WM are fiscally demolished by the loss of Scottish revenues.

    However, that would be petty, and not practical either.

    If you leave the oil untapped until some future time, presumably years and years later, then by the time you want to extract the resource, there are no oil companies operating in Scotland and the hardware infrastructure, will have denigrated beyond useable safety standards unless there has been a maintainence program over those years.

    That aside, it would be foolish to turn away from oil revenues which will secure the long term future of Scotland long after the oil has gone, it may be boring, but look at Norway.

    Oil production could stop tomorrow in Norway, and their Oil Fund will still provide all Norwegian needs for centuries to come.

    Why would we, after 40 years of being denied such vast revenues, fighting for independence to provide a better, fairer, more prosperous Scotland for future generations, cut off the best opportunity to do such things ?

    Why are we bothering if cutting off a massive wealth fund was the first priority post Indy ?

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