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A rose by any other name

Posted on February 16, 2019 by

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    1. 16 02 19 07:56

      A rose by any other name | speymouth

    154 to “A rose by any other name”

    1. Gullaneno4 says:

      Got to love the HoC.
      It is against protocol to tell another MP that they are a liar even when they are telling outrageous porkies.

    2. Ian McCubbin says:

      So bored with HoC politics and if it were n’t for Ian Blackford and the SNP team it would totally have lost all credibility.

    3. mike cassidy says:

      Liar. Liar.

      Pants on fire.

      Nose as long as a telephone wire.

      May is not alone in answering to that description.

    4. starlaw says:

      Westminster, the Mother of all parliaments, what a joke. Its like something out of Alice in Wonderland. Men with swords some with wigs, where lies are truth, and truth is false.

      Who in their right mind would set up a parliament like it.

    5. Hamish100 says:

      As subtle as ever.

      could add in the BBC an other brit nats and groups as well. Liars all. Where’s I will resign Mundell and Davidson ? hiding behind the benches

    6. Capella says:

      Economical with the truth ?

    7. Les Wilson says:

      Excellent Chris,
      Westminster has shown up just what the establishment can happily inflict on people if it serves it’s purpose.
      Hardly the Mother of all Parliaments,it is now seen as a shambles, the people won’t forget this debacle.

    8. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Capella @ 8.18am

      I fear, Economics, like responsible government, is something the Tories simply do not do.

    9. Fairliered says:

      Hits the nail on the head. Deserves a wider audience.

    10. Muscleguy says:

      @Socrates MacSporran

      Time was the Tories in govt could warn people that voting for Labour would be irresponsible and people listened. They have squandered that in spades. Only in the UK is it orthodox that you respond to credit crunch with historically low interest rates with austerity (which further reduces money in the economy). In that situation you borrow to invest in infrastructure and other measures where the govt is spending money in the economy.

      The rest of the world knows this, did this and they all look at the UK with Austerity and think we’ve lost our minds. So the idiocy of Brexit and the clusterfuck around managing it is not really a surprise to the rest of the world, except in so far as it is a doubling down on stupidity and incompetence instead of getting our shit together.

      We so need to get out of this septic union. We do not need to be shackled to such a system for any longer than we absolutely have to be and after a Yes vote ScotGov will have to get stern about things in the negotiation period. Like the instant devolution of all social welfare and necessary funding.

      I have a new job tutoring the long term unemployed in Employment Skills and Wellbeing and the effects on mental health are legion and disturbing.

    11. Abulhaq says:

      Awa wi 3e! Thow glaikit gowkit queyn!

    12. Robert Louis says:

      Aside from Theresa May being a contemptible, Scotland-hating, lying piece of Tory filth, this cartoon nails another important point. Nobody else in the mainstream media is calling out her blatant daily barrage of lies, and no other politicians are either.

      It is Ian Blackford and the SNP who have relentlessly pointed out her lies. Labour won’t point it out, because brexiteer Corbyn does the same.

      This, however is why the UK is in the mess it is in. Journalists are simply NOT doing what they piously claim their role is. Instead of tackling Theresa May’s compulsive lying, they brush it aside, instead pretending it isn’t even happening. No other Prime Minister I have ever experienced has been allowed to blatantly lie so often on such important matters as Theresa Liar May.

    13. Clootie says:

      How about…”all of the above!”

      Sadly she is doing the job the establishment want. All she has to do is run down the clock for a few more weeks. She is not attempting to resolve division at Westminster, her task is to keep it perfectly balanced and split. Once article 50 was triggered by the sheep the final destination was certain.

      It is a simple choice now
      a) An Independent forward thinking inclusive Nation, OR
      b) A narrow, inward looking right wing UK stronghold for the wealthy elite., OR
      c) Leave the UK, If you can afford to (doesn’t help the grand kids)

      Corbyn is not listed in the options as that comes under b) with the puppet masters still in charge.

    14. Capella says:

      @ Socrates MacSporran – I was quoting Burke!

      “Falsehood and delusion are allowed in no case whatsoever: But, as in the exercise of all the virtues, there is an economy of truth.”

      Which indicates that it is OK to call out lies and delusions in parliament, in spite of the Speaker’s objections.

      Those of you of my vintage will also remember Alan Clark’s “economical with the actualitie” and Robert Armstrong in the spycatcher trial:

      Lawyer: What is the difference between a misleading impression and a lie?
      Armstrong: A lie is a straight untruth.
      Lawyer: What is a misleading impression – a sort of bent untruth?
      Armstrong: As one person said, it is perhaps being “economical with the truth”.

      https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/127700.html

    15. Pacman says:

      Muscleguy says 16 February, 2019 at 8:45 am

      @Socrates MacSporran

      Time was the Tories in govt could warn people that voting for Labour would be irresponsible and people listened. They have squandered that in spades. Only in the UK is it orthodox that you respond to credit crunch with historically low interest rates with austerity (which further reduces money in the economy). In that situation you borrow to invest in infrastructure and other measures where the govt is spending money in the economy.

      A bit of hindsight, yes, but it was obvious even early on that the UK austerity program was an ideological rather than economic answer to the late 200’s economic crisis and resulting credit crunch. In fact, the credit crunch was a god-send to the Tories in order to repackage and continue Thatcherist dogma long after it was discredited.

      Both Labour and the Tories are bereft of ideas and the Westminster system allows that to continue as it is a continuous cycle of Labour getting in, the Tories waiting in the wings for them to wreck the economy. The Tories then get in and Labour wait in the wings for them to wreck the economy so they can it and so forth. This is aided and abetted by a complacent media who also have a vested interest in this.

      It is the most powerful reason for ordinary Scots to want independence but there are too many powerful elements in society that benefits from this two party system for this message to get out.

      The only way independence is going to be serious option that can’t be ignored is with a perfect storm of the two party system becoming unviable.

      Brexit is this perfect storm and the indy movement needs to tread carefully so not to muck it up. People say that Sturgeon and the SNP are being timid to grasp this opportunity but Westminster is seriously weakened at the moment, it is still a dangerous and powerful beast.

      The indy movement needs to bid its time and strike at the best moment. However, that doesn’t mean, it can’t prod and poke the Westminster beast in the meantime in order to pile on pressure, not to mention give a wee morale boost to the footsoldiers on the ground, so to speak.

    16. Tom Halliday says:

      They have fucked the country and are dancing around the funeral pyre, buried beneath that is a powder keg and they are about to light the touch paper, the SNP seem to be the only group with ant concept that provides a way out of this excuse of a democracy.

    17. Pacman says:

      Robert Louis says @ 16 February, 2019 at 8:51 am

      This, however is why the UK is in the mess it is in. Journalists are simply NOT doing what they piously claim their role is. Instead of tackling Theresa May’s compulsive lying, they brush it aside, instead pretending it isn’t even happening. No other Prime Minister I have ever experienced has been allowed to blatantly lie so often on such important matters as Theresa Liar May.

      Most of these journalists at the top are on £100k+ a year. They benefit from the tax dodging policies of the Tory government. Those journalists below them aspire to such positions. They aren’t going to rock the boat which will disadvantage them.

      The UK has a perfect system to keep this in place. Despite all this talk about the UK being a caring, classless society, it is still a class based ‘Gordon Gecko/Greed is good’ one. Even the charity sector is on it with their well paid bureaucratic/consultant layers.

    18. Pacman says:

      Another thing. I have heard a lot from people I know who feel sorry for May because of the abuse she gets and impossible position she had been put in. Her husband is loaded and so she will be when she leaves 10 Downing streets with the guaranteed directorships, not to mention tour circuit payouts that every ex-PM gets.

      I know my posts this morning is laced with cynical venom but hey-ho.

    19. HandandShrimp says:

      Talking of obfuscators I see the BBC newspaper round up has something about a Salmond letter as the main story. However, only the Hootsmon is running with that (par for the course). An accurate round up would be Jihadi brides, kids climate strike and the Alesha murder trial.

      The BBC as trustworthy as an untrustworthy thing.

    20. Rick H Johnston says:

      Or if ye juist skelped her ower the heid wi a 600 page buik it wadna be sair. No if it did a exist onywey.

    21. Rick H Johnston says:

      Oops, shuid hae read as didna exist onywey!

    22. Truth says:

      Ha ha, love the Pinocchio nose.

    23. Macart says:

      Ayup. Westminster’s code of conduct.

      A load of hypocritical equine fecal matter. 😎

    24. Ken Clark says:

      Another cracker, Chris.

      Mother of all parliaments. That’s an Americanism, isn’t it?

    25. Kangaroo says:

      If she falls over with that conk she’ll get stuck in the cobblestones outside number 10.

    26. Dr Jim says:

      Mrs May is a charming loving and gentle natured lady

      See how easy it is to tell lies and insult them with sarcasm maybe Ian should use that instead of allowing himself the luxury of anger

      England only understands two things, power and sleekitness
      Let’s sleekit them to death by making the public fools of them that they are

    27. Capella says:

      The BBC doesn’t appear to have heard about the children’s revolt. Should we email them and let them know?

    28. galamcennalath says:

      Superb image. Liars in public life have lied so much it has become the norm. iScotland can do better.

      Ken Clark says:

      Mother of all parliaments.

      Google tells me ….

      “The mother of parliaments” is a phrase coined by the British politician and reformer John Bright in a speech at Birmingham on 18 January 1865. It was a reference to England. His actual words were: “England is the mother of parliaments”. This was reported in The Times on the following day.

      … which I didn’t know. Interestingly it was originally used NOT to describe WM but to suggest England invented parliamentary democracy. I hae ma doots on that one! Lies from another era!?

    29. Legerwood says:

      HandandShrimp says:
      16 February, 2019 at 9:30 am
      “”Talking of obfuscators I see the BBC newspaper round up has something about a Salmond letter as the main story. However, only the Hootsmon is running with that (par for the course). An accurate round up would be Jihadi brides, kids climate strike and the Alesha murder trial.

      The BBC as trustworthy as an untrustworthy thing.””

      ……….

      The Herald has the letter story as well, but on the inside pages.

      On the subject of austerity which some have raised above, it is indeed a political decision to keep to these policies. The economic case for austerity was based on a paper by Rheinhart & Rogoff published in 2010. The conclusions they drew and recommendations they made with regard to austerity were later shown to be incorrect.

      The UK Government’s decision to continue with austerity policies in the light of the criticism of the original paper was purely a political choice not a soundly based economic choice.

      You can read more here:
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_in_a_Time_of_Debt

      On topic:
      Great cartoon. High time politicians in Parliament were called out then and there when they lie.

    30. Dr Jim says:

      @Capella 10:10am… We don’t need no edukayshun

      BBC Scotland today going with Scotlands renewable energy isn’t any good
      There’ll be a Sir Ian Wood clone along any minute to confirm like oil our wind sea and water power will run out by two weeks on Tuesday if Scotland becomes Independent

    31. Nana says:

      Quite frankly I doubt the woman would recognise truth if it hit her on her hook schnozzle.

      Re ‘the letter’

      https://inews.co.uk/news/scotland/scottish-government-block-release-of-nicola-sturgeon-letter-about-alex-salmond/

      More links on previous thread.

    32. Artyhetty says:

      Excellent Chris. These tory troughers just see red when the SNP MP’s enter through that commons door don’t they, they bloody hate the fact Scotland has so many SNP MP’s holding them to account, taking no nonsense and calling them out for their lies.

      The English parliament run by a cabal of public schoolboys, who just voted to remove human rights from the people of their country, and from what they consider their colony, ie Scotland.

      The have’s and the takers, stepping on and over the people they plunge into poverty. How they sleep at night is surely a mystery to any decent human being.

      The kids protesting yesterday, good, it’s their future that these troughers are making decisions about. Instead of school, lets have a kids parliament, where they are wholly involved in any decisions being made about the economy and the environment etc. School is past its sell by date, its not compulsory, (education is) nor are exams compulsory. It needs brought up to date, where kuds are not just fed stuff that is often irrelevant. What matters is how they will be able to negotiate their way around an ever growing problem of adult humans’ designed destruction on and of the planet.

      Nuclear waste being one mahoosive legacy that will burden them, forever!

    33. ronnie anderson says:

      Great Toon Chris but you missed oot Nebulous

    34. Cubby says:

      The Maybot has been lying at PMQ’s for a very long time. The question is why has Blackford chosen to call her out now.?

    35. Cubby says:

      Galamcennalath@10.18am

      Very similar to the more modern example of “footballs coming home” where England has managed to convince the world including a lot of Scots that England invented football. It was of course Scots under the description of British that morphed into England that invented football.

      One thing the Britnats are good at is lying and propaganda.

    36. defo says:

      Breugaire !

    37. ronnie anderson says:

      Cubby 11.am Ever heard the expression [ given enough rope ]

      excuses

      1 economical with the truth
      2 wee white lie
      & any other variation thereof

      Ian Blackford played Tereza like ah fiddle by calling her a lier , the look on her face was priceless as she turned to the Speaker for support Ian Blackford has went through the Hansard with a fine tooth come lol.

    38. Ghillie says:

      The ‘L’ word may be banned but it doesn’t half bring about a great deal of tremendous entertainment 🙂

      Ian Blackford is, quite simply, brilliant =)

      So are you Chris =)

    39. Legerwood says:

      Dr Jim @ 10.21 am

      Interesting that the BBC’s hot topic today is Scotland’s renewable energy sector. It is also the subject of Kevin McKenna’s column in today’s Herald.

      Coincidence?

    40. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Time to move!
      They think we are not going to.

    41. Ghillie says:

      Ken Clark @ 9.56 am

      ”Mother of all Parliaments.’ That’s an Americanism isn’t it?” 🙂

      Does the Americanism ‘Mother of all…’ mean the scariest worst ever? For example ‘Catriona was the Mother of all storms!’?

      THAT would fit.

      Or is it a polite American abbreviation for ‘Mother Fucker of all Parliaments’?

      That would fit too.

    42. Davy S says:

      Definition of a liar: We won’t have a GE in 2017 (oh yeah) No such thing as a magic money tree ( except when DUP need to be bribed for support) Only choice is my deal or no deal ( oh wait a minute I’ll go back and renegotiate my deal) and best of all Scotland’s place is best served as part of the UK (zzzz!)

    43. Effijy says:

      Billy Bunter lookalike Daisley in the daily hail
      Talking about the non existent SNP Parking Tax
      and how Scotland is the most taxed area in the UK.

      If you are rich, don’t pay England’s high council tax, pay for prescriptions, road and bridge tolls,
      London congestion charges, your kids University fees, and don’t take the Scottish over 60s travel benefits?
      In profile Dastardly just might be a very rotund Akfred Hichcock?
      You can obviously eat well when selling fictitious stories against your country.

    44. Giving Goose says:

      May gets away with lies and lies are acceptable to BritNats because the emotional price they would have to pay to accept the truth is just too high for them. The cost in lost esteem and pride would bankrupt them.

      The concept of “British” = “diminished, poor, has-been, laughing stock, small, powerless”
      The rest of the world knows this. BritNats just don’t want to.

    45. Ghillie says:

      How come does the ‘Mother of all Parliaments’ have a rule about not calling another ‘honourable’ member of said parliament a ‘liar’…

      But don’t seem to have a rule about not telling lies?

    46. Dr Jim says:

      Right now in Westminster meetings and discussions are being held by Members of the HOL previous Secs of State previous heads of civil service in Scotland as to how post Brexit the UK can “Make devolution work better” is how they like to put it

      Lord Jack McConnell thinks that in the *territory* of Scotland a new council of ministers made up of people like him (whether elected or not) is the best way to run the country with a deputy Prime Minister of the UK basically in resident control to facilitate easier working relationships within the UK

      Now that all sounds quite lovely from the Unionist point of view but from my point of view all I can hear is

      !!Take back control!!

      These meeting are being chaired by Pete Wishart, of whom I am not the biggest fan, in fact I’d quite happily exchange the back of his head with the front of his face for the servile way in which he conducts these sessions, but then again I’m not a fan

      Baroness Liddle thinks things are much more difficult now that Labour’s not in charge in Scotland, well she would say that anyway wouldn’t she, but her Lords and Ladies and chums agree with her

      See they don’t care who’s in charge in Scotland as long as it’s NOT the SNP because well they’re just tiresome, and Pete Wishart smiles but does not resist or object or take exception

      Oh and Ross Thompson of the fidgety face the gropey hands the black staring eyes and the wipey nose is on that commission along with Christine Jardine John Lamont and various other small amphibians (wee toads) saving grace Tommy Shepherd is on it

    47. Grouse Beater says:

      Well, Chris, nicely timed. I have a few liars snapping at my heels. A crowd funder is in process – see below:

      Your essential weekend readings:

      A great Scot ignored: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-nnO
      Zapping the liars: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-nq8

    48. chicmac says:

      British Nationalists have ever been more economical with the truth than truthful about the economy.

      Especially in regard to the Scottish aspiration and right, for normal levels of self determination.

    49. ronnie anderson says:

      Gillie another anomaly of the Mother of all Parliaments is addressing another MP as Honourable , one week your out there chapping doors Lying your arse off ( Tories/Slab/Libdems/Ukip ) to get elected once elected & take the oath tae Lizzy your then have to be addressed as the Honourable , thats a magical transformation like being hit with the rhythm stick lol.

    50. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The poster we have put in the Forward Shop window describing QT as “an insult to Scotland’s intelligence” is gathering huge interest. We have photo of BUM (Billy Unionist Mitchell) accompanying it with some supporting text.

    51. Hamish100 says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      16 February, 2019 at 1:02 pm
      The poster we have put in the Forward Shop window describing QT as “an insult to Scotland’s intelligence” is gathering huge interest. We have photo of BUM (Billy Unionist Mitchell) accompanying it with some supporting text.

      Maybe WoS could publish it on Twitter?

    52. Petra says:

      Brilliant Chris and as a substitute for the word liar we could consider the word misleader … ”May the Mis-Leader”.

      One of the best examples yet, imo, is of her trying to rewrite history with the straight face of a bare-faced liar.

      VIDEO: ”During a heated Commons debate, Ian Blackford said: “Sometimes I think the PM must live in a parallel universe. We’ve just heard from the Prime Minister that she wanted this concluded in December. Mr Speaker, talk about rewriting history, it was the Prime Minister that denied us the right to have a meaningful vote. And to try and rewrite history, and she sits there laughing. You know sometimes you should be honest with yourself, never mind being honest with the people of the United Kingdom.”

      http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/ian-blackford-calls-theresa-may-a-liar-in-the-house-of-commons-1-5888872

    53. Auld Rock says:

      Starlaw – In answer to your question – The English, though I suspect you meant it as a rhetorical one?

    54. ronnie anderson says:

      OH am shaking aw the wie doon tae ma tootsies , anither threatening letter sumbudies gonny be visiting me .

      Dont pay the BBC Licence Fee .

      Capita acting as collection agents for Bbc in England have ah double dunt payment

      1 getting people to pay up on the doorstep

      2 securing convictions for non payment courts sentencing to Satellite Tag Orders

      Corruption at every level in this Tory Gov & if Capita dont get you G4s get the money to imprison you .

    55. Cubby says:

      Grouse Beater @12.41pm

      Only 142 people have donated to the crowd funder. Cmon guys and gals. We need to stop this attack on independence supporters/bloggers.

      Douglas Fir – David Douglas another Scot whose work is claimed by some English scribes.

    56. starlaw says:

      auld rock 1;22

      yup, and I meant to add . . . round the corner for the mad ermines tea party.

    57. msean says:

      There are many words that can be used to describe this situation,but you can’t use the most apt.

    58. Cassandra says:

      A great illustration of how ludicrous it all is.

      The assumption of ‘Honour’ is an anachronism that should be done away with. Make the HoC like a courtroom subject to the laws of the land

    59. galamcennalath says:

      Why are Members of Parliament not allowed to call each other liars in the House of Commons, when we all know this is a prerequisite of the job?

      THE QUESTION answers itself: an MP is not allowed to call another MP a liar because he would thereby be telling the truth, thus contravening parliamentary etiquette.

      http://archive.is/0WSAI

    60. Tinto Chiel says:

      @galamcennalath 1018: you have to laugh at all that mother of parliament tosh, don’t you?

      Iceland is normally regarded as the site of the oldest parliament, at a time when England had barely united into the country we recognise today:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Althing

    61. galamcennalath says:

      Talking of those who speak with forked tongues ….

      “No Brexit deal is better than a bad deal, a leading Democratic Unionist MP has told his party conference. “

      https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/no-brexit-deal-better-than-bad-deal-says-dup-1.3796699

      The DUP opposed the GFA. They want NI politically close to mainland UK and as separated from the rest of Ireland as possible. The ‘backstop’ means the opposite if it kicks in because the Tories negotiate a hard Brexit down the line.

      The biggest lie of all, regarding NI at the moment, is that the DUP speaks for the majority.

    62. Scottish Steve says:

      I prefer lying old bitch myself.

    63. yesindyref2 says:

      Put 5 economists in a room, get 6 different opinions.

      Put 1 Theresa May in a room, what opinion do you want?

    64. Terence callachan says:

      Well said muscleguy 8.45am

    65. robbo says:

      Dr Jim says:
      16 February, 2019 at 12:37 pm

      Aye just watched that Dr Jim.

      Some interesting stuff. But we all know unionists never wanted devolution in any shape or form good or bad.

      What struck me was the tory MP’s carping on continuously about how divisive the the relationships were during the pre indy ref plans more so than whats happening with brexit like now!. If fact i think were they were told in a round about way NAW it wasn’t really but without those unionist old timers not specifically saying brexit is worse cause it pains them to say so.

    66. defo says:

      YIR2
      Sir Graham Bradys?

    67. Iain mhor says:

      @Robbo 3:27pm

      I’m not sure about ‘Unionists’ not wanting Devolution, I suppose it depends on how you define Unionists. If it just means those who don’t want any devolution then yes. Other than that, it’s possible many in the Unionist Parties, and certainly the majority, but not all, Tory voters don’t back devolution, but they are the minority in Scotland.
      Coincidentally I was just double checking some of the Wings Polls and they back that up, as do other more recent polls from Wings and others.
      This Wings article way back in Nov. 2014 pretty much covers it and little has changed in the intervening years.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-meaning-of-devo-max/

    68. Foonurt says:

      Fibbin basturt, jist fine.

      Alang agane, wae thae erses oan Radio Union. Yoan Hayley Millar ithurr moarnin [(?} 15th (7-40am)] wae Ian Blackford, wis goad-awfae.

      Shae aye bawls, ett SNP folk, tae gee ah “Aye urr naw.” answer.

      Fuckin laughs, wae thae ‘Daily Mail’ yins fortae meenits efturr.

    69. t42 says:

      O/T Other indy news from around the world.

      Spain – In the middle of Europes biggest political show trial against Catalonia MPs, spanish prime minister bizarrely calls a snap general election, and calls for the exhumation of dictator General Franco. Its unlikely Franco will be able to give evidence, but the way things are going who knows..

      Turkey – Kurdish independence supporter Leyla Guven MP reaches day 100 on hunger strike, refuses hospital treatment. Peaceful protesters marching in support are beaten by police truncheons and banned.
      Turkish policeman tries to create violence by slide tackling an MP who spoke in support of Leyla.
      https://twitter.com/MAturkce/status/1096340583507988480

    70. jezza says:

      The English media love nothing better than having a diversionary story away from Brexit.

      This time it’s about some pregnant English bird who visited Syria.

      And they are wringing the life out of it, to the point of utter boredom.

      If it wasn’t her it would have been Trump or Putin.

    71. twathater says:

      At least this example of the corrupt fetid union will drive us Scots to DEMAND that when we reassert our self determination by dissolving the union we will not accept ANY members or associates of our representatives to blatantly lie or obfuscate to the electorate

      The slogan ” they work for us ” unfortunately does not apply to these amoral, imbecilic VULTURES whose only intention is to feed off the bones of the ordinary peoples corpses

      If civil unrest breaks out I wonder who the public will hold responsible

      Great cartoon as usual Chris especially the dishonourable maybot

    72. ronnie anderson says:

      https://www.facebook.com/groups/215556435841901/permalink/369660017098208/

      Noo they would do ah better joab if the were Sleeping Police .

    73. robbo says:

      Iain mhor says:
      16 February, 2019 at 3:58 pm
      @Robbo 3:27pm

      Aye Iain. Think I was more allaying to the tory unionist when i was thinking/writing that.

      Never seen that article back in 2014 as wasn’t around WOS then – thanks for the link! Some interesting figures there = we never got the elusive devo max, we got the devious maximus in the end. . Think this point should have been pushed more since but seems not to have been.

    74. Robert Peffers says:

      @Gullaneno4 says: 16 February, 2019 at 7:18 am:

      ” … Got to love the HoC.
      It is against protocol to tell another MP that they are a liar even when they are telling outrageous porkies.”

      Yes and I’m old enough to remember Winston S. Churchill telling another, Honourable Member that he was, using a, “Terminological inexactitude”, and getting cheered loudly for doing so.

      ye! But! He was not only a Tory but an American-English one at that.

      That’s the best cartoon on Wings this week, Chris.

      RADFC:(Runs and dives for cover).

    75. The reason the unionists. Lie is simple the honest truth proves them wrong also I once heard that Scotland had a King and a parliament while England had 7kings if that is true how can Westminster claim to be the mother of all parliaments ???

    76. geeo says:

      It slightly bugs me when people state that “we never got the promised devo max/most powerful devolved parly ever in the world” stuff.

      Neither of those things were on the 2014 indyref ballot.

      It was Yes = indy or No = Status Quo.

      All and every promise/vow of more powers, was a breach of the terms of the indyref.

      That is what invalidated the result.

    77. Cubby says:

      Grouse Beater@12.41

      Now up to 166 people having donated to the crowd funder. Cmon guys and gals.

      We need to put an end to this attack on independence supporters. My local free newspaper front page has an attack on another independence supporter/ blogger (Jeggit) with Jackson Carlaw trying to smear the whole yes movement.

    78. Phydaux says:

      Thank you Chris. I can almost smell the whiff coming from T.May and it ain’t the sweet smell of roses. Lying is part of the Westminster skill set and is one way of controlling others or compensating for a sense of inferiority.

      Your cartoons should be on giant fucking billboards all over Scotland, as well as others with the truth about Scotland and our vast potential and resources. The Yes Elgin billboards drove the British Nationalists nuts so deffo hitting the right sweet spots. You can pack quite a lot into a slogan. We have a multitude of creative talent and ideas to do this effectively and I am happy to donate to costs.

    79. Cubby says:

      Geeo@5.03pm

      Whilst it does not bug me that people complain about the Vow not being delivered. You are spot on with the rest of your post.

      What bugs me is Britnats saying the 2014 referendum was a fair, legal and honest referendum. The Vow destroyed the referendums credibility. What it does show is that Britnats will do anything to win. Britannia waives the rules when it suits them.

      It also bugs me when people from other countries hold the referendum in 2014 as an example/high standard for other countries to aspire to. It was nothing of the sort.

    80. Giving Goose says:

      Tinto Cheil

      Dingwall must be in with a shout for that honour based on the origin of the name 🙂

    81. Undeadshuan says:

      We may be witnessing the end of a functioning government in the uk, if this is an example.

      “Philip Hammond is not going to China this weekend for trade talks, following reports that Beijing scuppered advanced preparations for a meeting after the defence secretary, Gavin Williamson, threatened to deploy a warship in the Pacific.”

      https://archive.is/vkUZ8

      We are really having the country run by Alan Patridge alikes.

    82. galamcennalath says:

      Phydaux says:

      You can pack quite a lot into a slogan.

      Indeed. There’s a lot of evidence slogans and oft repeated sound bites have a lot of influence.

      The Take Back Control of Leave, for instance. Or, the Tories one Labour isn’t working.

      The advertising industry has been successful with catchy slogans for decades.

      People turn off from reasoned arguments with lots of figures and graphs. They shouldn’t but they do. Also, when two sides start “yes it is, no it isn’t” type debating, that too is a turn off.

      YES needs some good slogans. Being short doesn’t mean they can’t be true and on-the-nail.

      We need both positive and negatives ones. The attractions of self government based in Scotland for Scotland, versus the obvious failings of ‘London rule’.

    83. Iain mhor says:

      @robbo 4:25pm

      Aye, there are a lot of good old, but still relevent posts and even the “Reference” section gets overlooked (I know a couple of people who read Wings didn’t know it existed!)

      Scotland is a weird place, the majority want their own Government and a Union of Parliaments, but ended up with the exact opposite.

    84. hackalumpoff says:

      O/T
      “Joanna Cherry at odds with ‘softly softly’ Indy move”, how very dare she …

      https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1096682608061280256

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFcmNu4KdGI

    85. Essexexile says:

      Primo flore botrus Cubby?

    86. Colin Alexander says:

      Grouse Beater

      I enjoyed your article about David Douglas. Thanks for that.

      Regarding your proposed defamation law suit.

      Don’t.

      Even if you win, Only if you want gut wrenching worry, sleepless nights and a sense of “it wasn’t worth the damage to my relationship and my family and used up years of precious time that I will never get back” , go ahead and do it.

      If you’re as articulate and studious as you seem, could you try Simple Procedure?

      But remember it’s likely your opponent will still probably have the best solicitor money can buy, and you probably won’t. And are expenses capped for defamation in Simple Procedure? If over £3k I don’t think expenses are capped anyway.

      The very cheapest solicitor is £200/ hour.

      If someone asked my opinion, as an individual, I’d say ignore it. Life is too short. Focus on your family and fighting for Scotland’s freedom.

      Or write and ask for a retraction and apology by recorded delivery and keep a copy of the letter/s.

      If they apologise and withdraw the comments. Let it go.

      That’s what I would say.

      People will slag you even more anyway, the bampots and bigots etc as you’ll attract even more publicity if taking legal action.

      If you want to sue, be prepared to lose EVERYTHING. Not just financial. Your happiness too.

      Only if you feel you have no other option, that it will destroy you if you don’t, would I encourage you or someone else to sue for defamation.

      The only winners will be the solicitors. And the MSM getting you for more free stories.

    87. Robert Peffers says:

      @Tom Halliday says: 16 February, 2019 at 9:19 am:

      ” … They have fucked the country and are dancing around the funeral pyre, buried beneath that is a powder keg and they are about to light the touch paper, the SNP seem to be the only group with ant concept that provides a way out of this excuse of a democracy.”

      What country is it you speak of, Tom? The Westminster Parliament is not the legislature of, “A”, country: It is the legislature of a United Kingdom.

      The clue is in the name and the name is, “Her Majesty’s Parliament of Her United Kingdom”, and the, “Units”, that make up that, “United Kingdom”, are two Kingdoms.

      One of those kingdoms contains three individual countries. The other is both a unitary kingdom in its own right and a unitary country in its own right.

    88. geeo says:

      @hackalumpoff 5.53pm

      Thanks for that reminder why i do not do twitter.

      The format alone gives me a headache, never mind a simple statement going from simple to fully insane in no time.

      Some folk would be great to play poker against, or easily beat in any other game of tactics.

      If the SNP/Scotsgov did not have a sound plan, they would be finished politically. And they are not exactly stupid, they know this.

      So the options are:

      1. They have a carefully crafted and cunning plan for moving independence forward, which, due to strong party discipline (all moving in same direction) has not been leaked (can you imagine labour of the tory parties keeping a plan under the radar)!!

      2. They have no plan at all and are bumbling along to presenting Scotland with a tory government at Holyrood in 2021.

      It’s a toughie huh ?

    89. Colin Alexander says:

      Geeo

      Hope it’s 1.

      If I had to bet my shirt on it, I’d go with 2.

    90. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ken Clark says: 16 February, 2019 at 9:56 am:

      ” … Another cracker, Chris.
      Mother of all parliaments. That’s an Americanism, isn’t it?”

      Yes it is – The English equivalent is, “‘Tis pity she’s a whore”, (written by John Ford).

    91. geeo says:

      Coco says: “If someone asked my opinion”

      Yeah, that’s never happened, nor likely to.

    92. Cubby says:

      The Britnats have come out to play.

      The Britnats answer to everything – “just lie down and accept the kicking that us Britnats will give you. You know you want to it’s much easier just to accept our lies, deceit and theft of your resources.”

      Britnats the scum of the island called Great Britain – there is nothing great about Britnats. Britnats masquerading as independence supporters – the scum on top of the scum.

    93. geeo says:

      Coco gibbers: “If I had to bet my shirt on it, I’d go with 2”
      ……..

      Then you are an even bigger fool than you continually prove to everyone on an almost daily basis. A shirtless fool at that.

    94. sandy says:

      Blair Paterson.

      Please, for God’s sake, download “Grammarly”,

    95. Thepnr says:

      Only 5 more Cairns Toons to go before Brexit or is it?

      Thanks again for another Saturday morning Chris cracker 🙂

    96. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Giving Goose 5.15 re Dingwall. Same meaning as you say but the Icelandic one has age and continuity going for it, I think.

      Just gave a wee donation to Grouse Beater’s worthy appeal and will give more next month. Come on, Wingers, shake those sofas and see what change falls out. This guy’s getting harried for nothing other than his outspoken support for independence.

    97. Maria F says:

      geeo says:
      16 February, 2019 at 5:03 pm
      “It was Yes = indy or No = Status Quo”

      Yes, geeo, and what exactly was the “Status Quo” the people of Scotland voted for?

      Because if I remember correctly, that “Status Quo” included a UK holding EU membership, a Parliament of Scotland based on a devolution settlement under which that parliament could pass bills and under which all powers that were not reserved in 2014 were devolved.

      Furthermore, Mr Brown, a former PM of the UK, added to that Status Quo the concept of Devo Max and the actual PM of the UK at the time, Mr Cameron, added to that status quo the fact of becoming the most devolved nation of the world. We will never know how important those promises were for the result of the referendum, but what we certainly know is that Cameron refused initially to put devo max in the ballot because the cretin knew exactly what would happen if he did: Devo Max would win, so he kept it as a get-out of jail card to use just in case. And the time to use it came when he had to use it to stop the tide when the polls indicated that Indy was actually in course to win. So don’t give us that crap, please.

      You know what really annoys me? It is precisely that, the bending over, the tugging your forelock and the acceptance of defeat because those who were defeated are telling us they won.

      It really annoys me to see and hear people dismissing the real importance and the transcendence of those promises, to dismiss the real influence they had in the vote.

      It annoys me that people leaves self-serving individuals like Brown, like Cameron, like Davidson, like Alistair Darling off the hook. Well, I for one refuse to do so. Those cretins included Devo Max/most devolved country in the world in the fckng status quo because they knew that they would lose otherwise so now, as far as I am concerned, it is time for the chickens to come home to roost.

      For as long as the PM, ex-PMs, the uK Parliament and HM Opposition refuse to deliver on that fckng status quo, they will be reneging on the vote and actually rejecting it. The people of Scotland did not vote for any Status quo. The people of Scotland voted for a particular Status Quo, one that included EU membership, one that included as Holyrood powers all powers that were not reserved in 2014, one that included for HOlyrood the power to pass bills regarding those devolved powers without interference from Westminster, one that included for Holyrood its permanence and, of course, as a late offer from the powers that be in their desperation to stop Scotland dissolving the union devo max. Until that devo max is not delivered, they have not delivered the vote. They UK state has procrastinated enough. 4 years is long enough and it is now time to deliver on our vote, this time in full.

      I laugh every time I read or hear the idiots in Westminster and in Holyrood in the benches of labour, LibDems and tories bragging that “Scotland voted in 2014”. Well, damn right we voted. We most certainly did not vote for the fckng mess they are now pushing down our throats. We voted for a Status quo that these hypocrite arseholes are refusing to deliver and that are changing illegitimately without our consent as we speak. Well, not on my name. I will keep shouting from the rooftops that these people reneged on our vote until they deliver our Status Quo in full.

      I may be the only one, but I am certainly not settling it for a lie and most certainly will not be tugging my forelock any time soon. The UK PMs, the UK ex-PMs, the UK parliament, the English Supreme court, Labour, LibDems and Tories have failed us and done so spectacularly. They have failed/refused to deliver on the only status quo the people of Scotland actually gave consent for the union to continue on and that to me means only one thing:
      they are refusing to accept that vote. They are refusing to accept what the people of Scotland actually voted for. And the thing is that if you delegitimise the only status quo the people of Scotland gave consent for the union to continue on, you are delegitimising that vote too and the union itself.

      You say that Devo Max was not in the ballot. I say, hell yes it was, it was in the status quo we voted for. By the way, perhaps you could kindly point to me as to where exactly in the ballot paper was giving consent for the theft of our powers by England MPs? Where exactly in the ballot was our consent for Scotland’s powers being illegitimately transferred without our consent to England MPs? Where exactly in that ballot was our consent for England MPs to overrule our expressed democratic will to remain in the EU? Where in the ballot we renounced to our Claim of Right and our right to elect the government we consider fit for our country? Where in the ballot exactly we renounced to our right of being represented by our legitimate representatives (MSPs, 59 MPs and MEPs) in the negotiations involving our country? Where exactly in that ballot was our consent for the Treaty of Union to be breached by using English law to crush Scots law? Would you also please point out to where exactly in that ballot was our consent for England MPs and English political parties to change the status quo we voted for without our mandate and explicit consent?

      Because, frankly, I do not remember anything of the sort being included in the ballot either.

    98. Fireproofjim says:

      Maria F
      Good post. That concisely spells out the 2014 lies.

    99. Colin Alexander says:

      Gaun yersel Maria F.

      That’s when instead of holding feet to the fire, the SNP should have said:

      Broken covenant with the sovereign people. Time to activate ultimate sovereignty of the people: Claim of Right.

      And sought a mandate to implement Devo-max at Holyrood along with future indy vote to follow.

      They still could and for Brexit too.

      But, I wouldn’t bet on it.

    100. Ken Clark says:

      @ galamcennalath, 10:18, Ghillie, 11:57, Robert Peffers, 6:25.

      I was going for motherfucker, although Robert’s version has a certain elegance.

      Sticking with Americanisms, would Ian Blackford get away with, “shyster”, or is that German for something that stinks?

    101. Nana says:

      O/T

      Brexit bites

      Flybmi goes into administration – all flights cancelled
      http://archive.is/Cnjjg

    102. Fireproofjim says:

      Robert Peffers
      There have been some other witty ripostes in the HoC
      My favourite was a 19th Century politician informing the PM that he was a scoundrel who would “end up on the gallows or with the pox”.
      “That Sir” he replied, “depends on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress.”
      Wish I could remember who it was.

    103. Fireproofjim says:

      OK.I googled it. It was Disraeli.

    104. robbo says:

      Cubby and Geeo

      It should concern you that devo max as promised wasn’t/hasn’t been delivered as it was a fecking lie! What’s happened since has proved that has it not.

      By them lot Cameron,Darling, Brown etc coming up here and promising that(devo max) put a spanner in the works a few days b4 the vote. That persuaded IMHO(in my humble opinion) around 1 million status quo votes that could have otherwise been for YES. I really feel that. There is no way 2 million die hard orange order knuckledragging butcher’s apron lovers up here. A lot of people voted just tae keep the peace as we say a lot up here- cos i know quite a few who thought along these lines.Aye but their geeing us devo max -we can run our own affairs we dont need a full split.

      So what Maria F said @ 6.58 i agree with. If we had devo max the next only solution forward imho after would have been full independence after we had proved to people, that with FFA (full fiscal autonomy) we can do it ourselves , so would have been a win win situation.

      We won 56/59 MP’s just over six months later and should pushed and pushed this fact while they had the chance. Where’s our devo max where’s our devo max.

      Now because of the snap election a year later after that
      Let in 13 fecking tories who are not delivering for Scotland who do not want any sort of devo max or full independence.

    105. Cubby says:

      Maria F@6.58pm

      Great post.

      Scotland votes in 2014 – Scotlands vote ignored.

      Scotland votes in 2016 – Scotlands vote ignored.

      Of course Britnats will just dismiss it all as losers sour grapes and that’s why we need to be an independent country instead of being controlled by a dictatorship at Westminster.

    106. geeo says:

      That is nothing more than passive aggressive pash, Maria F.

      The terms of the Edinburgh Agreement was that the referendum was to be a simple Yes or No to independence.

      Yes = Indy

      No = status quo.

      If you recall, as i am sure you do, Cameron fought tooth and nail to NOT HAVE DEVO MAX on the ballot paper.

      If i recall he said that he will not have the SNP rewarded for trying to break up the Uk.
      ……

      I never said nor even implied that WM/BT/etc never shafted Scotland during indyref1, in fact, i am pretty sure i said this:
      ……..

      “All and every promise/vow of more powers, was a breach of the terms of the indyref.

      That is what invalidated the result”.
      ……….

      Now, if i am saying that the indyref was invalidated BECAUSE of interference, illegal interference, which is specific to the deviation from the agreed meaning of Yes and No votes in the Edinburgh Agreement, why on earth would you go on a complete paddy and rant at me ?

      You need to get a grip of your self.

    107. mike cassidy says:

      “The mother of parliaments” is a phrase coined by the British politician and reformer John Bright in a speech at Birmingham on 18 January 1865.

      It was a reference to England. His actual words were: “England is the mother of parliaments”. This was reported in The Times on the following day

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_mother_of_parliaments_(expression)

    108. Essexexile says:

      Cubby @5.11pm
      In all seriousness Cubby, I think you need to just stop and remind yourself how a’democratic’ referendum / election is run in many parts of the world.
      The running of 2014 wasn’t faultless but, as you indicated, it was still a positive example to others.

    109. Cubby says:

      Robbo@7.37pm

      Robbo, while some Britnats did say Geeo and I are the same person I can assure you that is not true. I think you are wrong in your comment that I am not concerned about devomax not being delivered. I said I did not agree with Geeo s comment and have often posted that non delivery of the Vow is a reason for indyref2 on its own.

    110. mike cassidy says:

      Fireproofjim 7.27

      Sadly, it may be that no individual actually said it.

      Though the Earl Of Sandwich seems to have been favourite for the ‘straight man’ role!

      http://archive.is/IIeeR

    111. geeo says:

      No, robbo, it is you who is wrong.

      Why on earth would i give credibility (and legitimacy) to the lies of the BT campaign ?

      If you accept that devo-super-doopermax as a genuine offer to vore No, then you are stating loud and clear that you ACCEPTING the indyref was legitimate, and your grievance then becomes with the non delivery of shite like ‘the vow’ rather than the illegal changing of the meaning of a No vote.

      By doing that, you are legitimising the LIES of the No campaign.

      The indyref was not delegitimised by not delivering ‘the vow’.

      The indyref was delegitimised BECAUSE THE VOW EVEN EXISTED in the first place.

      Why is that hard to comprehend, that you are falling for the Unionist narrative ?

    112. Terence Callachan says:

      Well said Maria F 6.58pm

    113. geeo says:

      @cubby.

      What have i told you about disagreeing with yourself…(lol)

    114. Fireproofjim says:

      Mike Cassidy
      Unfortunately many of these legendary ripostes have been embroidered with time.
      One that is true, however, is the following.
      Lady Astor to Churchill “ If you were my husband I would poison your coffee.”
      Churchill, “If I were your husband I would drink it.”
      I can think up cutting remarks too. Unfortunately it is usually several hours/days after the event.

    115. Maria F says:

      geeo says:
      16 February, 2019 at 7:40 pm
      “That is nothing more than passive aggressive pash, Maria F”

      At least I do not do forelock tugging, while crushing my hat, polishing the boots of England MPs Scotland did not vote for and saying “yes master” with your head down as you appear to do. I rather be passive aggressive than a sheep.

      “The terms of the Edinburgh Agreement was that the referendum was to be a simple Yes or No to independence”

      Bollocks, Geeo, more smokescreen and crap is not going to take you out of this. Brown and Cameron are in record, in videos, in newspapers indicating that a no vote would equal to devo max/being the most devolved nation in the world. Sorry, I am no lawyer and your “Edinburgh agreement” nonsense means to me as much as a toilet paper roll. Now those videos, newspaper articles etc with the arseholes Brown and Cameron promising us Devo Max/to be the most devolved nation of the world, mean to me an awful lot, they mean a part of the status quo I voted for and they mean the concession the English establishment had to make in order to save face and not losing Scotland.

      “Yes = Indy; No = status quo”

      Not just “status quo”, mind, what we voted for was “THE” status quo we had in front of us in 2014 which included Devo Max, Eu Membership and many more things.

      “If you recall, as i am sure you do, Cameron fought tooth and nail to NOT HAVE DEVO MAX on the ballot paper”

      Precisely, because the idiot:
      1. thought that he could win handsomely without it
      2. Wanted to use it as a get out of jail card just in case.

      May I remind you how desperately they resourced to include Devo Max, The most devolved country in the world in our Status Quo A WEEK before the vote? I am sure you remember. It was precisely at the time that the polls were giving victory to a Yes vote. If No vote were not haemorrhaging votes like a broken pipe, they would not dare to offer it.

      “If i recall he said that he will not have the SNP rewarded for trying to break up the Uk”

      “break”? You mean DISSOLVE the UK. Dissolve the UK is the right terminology to use here. Cameron is a coward and a compulsive liar. He did not want to include it in the vote because he knew most people in Scotland would support Devo Max, it is as simple as that.

      The hypocrites in Labour, LibDems, Tories, the UK PM, the English government, the UK Parliament etc keep telling us “you lost, get over it. You had a chance of voting and you lost” But the reality here is that we did not lose. We won before we even approached the polling places. Why? Because Mr Salmond and Ms Sturgeon are such amazing politicians that they got the English establishment on their fckng knees offering us Devo Max even before we approached the ballots and even before we voted because it was too late for Devo Max to be included in the ballot. We did not even need to vote yes for that or put a cross in the ballot, Devo Max was made the default, the status quo by English establishment puppets Cameron and Brown in pure raw desperation. What does that tell you? The English establishment knew that unless they included Devo Max in the bargain, the UK was over. That geeo is not losing. That is winning and winning big. So I refuse to be called a loser by the actual losers. Scotland won a battle that day and I am darn proud of it.

      Labour, Tories, Libdems, The UK PM, ex-PMs, the UK parliament, HM opposition and the English supreme court are reneging on our vote, are refusing to accept the status quo WE voted for in 2014 and therefore are invalidating the vote we cast in 2014. It is as simple as that.

      By changing without our consent the only status quo we gave consent for the union to continue on in 2014, these monumental idiots have delegitimised the vote, in other words, they threw the baby out with the bath water. And that is how it is.

    116. geeo says:

      You know what maria F, you just keep on posting utter shite, in your desperate attempt to attack my facts of the matter.

      You are so desperate that you try to attribute a CAMERON QUOTE (“If i recall he said that he will not have the SNP rewarded for trying to break up the Uk”)

      I was quoting what CAMERON SAID, not me, you blithering idiot.

      Of course the phrase SHOULD have been “dissolve” but that is OUR terminology NOT WHAT CAMERON SAID.

      I shall be ignoring your pig ignorant self indulgant shite from now on, you clearly are not as balanced where you need to be.

      If you want to legitimise the Vow by accepting it as a genuine offer despite being NOT ON THE BALLOT, rather than the reason we were robbed of independence illegally, then fill yer boots.

      If ypu order independence from amazon, and they offer chips at the last minute instead, and deliver fuck all, do you demand where your independence is, or demand where your chips are ?

      Apparently you want the chips.

      Good for you.

    117. Cubby says:

      Geeo@7.54pm

      “The indyref was delegitimised because the Vow even existed in the first place”

      I agree with this comment and this has always been my position. It does not mean as I said previously that the fact the Vow was not honoured is not a reason to invalidate the referendum as well.

      The Vow invalidated the Edinburgh Agreement and demonstrated perfidious Albion at its worst. The subsequent approach to implementing the Vow then showed perfidious Albion all over again.

      I think you and Maria F are both making excellent points and having a bit of a pointless spat tbh.

    118. Essexexile says:

      It’s all gone a bit Bowyer Vs Dyer.

    119. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Maria F at 6.58

      The reason Devo Max was not on the ballot paper was that it was undefined and it cannot be defined – unless of course it means independence – which is the only logical meaning for it. It was a slogan without meaning.

      The devolution we have at the moment is about as far as it can go before it becomes unsustainable in a unitary state and very obviously providing irreconcilible complications that would militate against sensible and coherent government.

    120. Cubby says:

      Geeo@8.16pm

      Perhaps we should have it on the ballot paper for indyref2.

      Independence with chips – yes or no. LOL

    121. OS trying to buy domaims with .scot unavailable mmmm

    122. Cubby says:

      Dave McEwan Hill@8.44pm

      If devo max or any other additional devolution was put on the ballot paper as an option it would have had to be clearly defined and that’s what should have happened instead of the deceitful Vow.

      To say indyref1 was fair, honest and legal is just more Britnat lies.

      Just another example of Westminster pockling things. They cannot be trusted. They have no integrity. The whole world knew this. The whole world as a result of U.K. Exit from the EU now thinks Westminster is a laughing stock as well.

    123. Pete says:

      God, what a lot of zoomers on here.
      Geeo, are you the nutter who used to talk continuous crap on the Onef football forum?
      Fortunately, you exploded and packed in.

    124. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Cubby at 8.53

      Made no suggestion that indyref1 was fair or honest or whatever. Made no suggestion about it whatsoever.

      O/T

      Much talk about us getting a good marching song. Why don’t we just steal this one (with our own words,of course)

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0K1qKFRJrA

      Always puzzled about the dislike and lack of respect a section of the Scottish people have for our Irish cousins.]
      Is it actully shame that our wee mice are afflicted with or jealousy.

    125. robbo says:

      Geeo

      Am wrong eh . Oh right that’s gonnae help me persuade my no voting buddies that their fuds It’s about getting smarter not even. You ain’t gonnae persuade soft no voters,guys who probably thought devo max when they went into the booths that day by saying their a bunch of arses .

      The press should have been made to deliver the devo max promise made-call them out on it.

      This legitimising de- legitimising thinghy is just mince and doesn’t wash with them .

      Now a couple have said they would be yes next time but a few are pissed off the devo max point wasn’t pressed by MP’s in parliament because they weren’t fully convinced we could go alone without proving it.

    126. Cubby

      it happens all the time – English claiming the kudos.Not for this one though!

      Re Douglas Fir

      The Giant Redwood tree or Sequoiadendron was introduced into the British Isles in August 1853 by Patrick Matthews whose son, John, was travelling in California and sent some seeds home to his father’s nursery in Perth. The father grew these on and they spread rapidly around all the estates and parklands in Scotland as everyone wanted one.

      An English plant hunter, William Lobb sent the seeds home to England in December 1853 and his seeds and plants were widespread in Europe. But you’ll often read that England introduce this tree.

    127. Iain 2 says:

      Independence, what is the problem with Scotland becoming a normal country like every other normal country on planet earth.
      Who could have a problem with that.
      The uk has gone past its sell by date and no longer suits the vast majority of Scots
      England will get along fine without us and they will still be pals.
      What is the problem?

    128. Colin Alexander says:

      I’ve always preferred elections with a detailed manifesto to indyref.

      Darling said we won’t hand Scotland the cheque book.

      Indyref1 handed the UK state a book of blank cheques.

      All that is on the cheques is:

      Account holder: Scotland

      Payee: UK State
      and the word NO

      The UK fills in the blank space when they cash them in:

      NO: equal MPs if they come from Scotland;

      NO: EU membership;

      NO: Devo max;

      NO: respect for devolution and the Sewel Convention;

      NO: respect for Scottish democracy etc

      NO: fairness for Scotland

      NO: respect for Scotland

      How many blank cheques are left?

    129. robbo says:

      Geeo

      Am wrong eh . Oh right that’s gonnae help me persuade my no voting buddies that their fuds It’s about getting smarter not even. You ain’t gonnae persuade soft no voters,guys who probably thought devo max when they went into the booths that day by saying their a bunch of arses .

      The press should have been made to deliver the devo max promise made-call them out on it.One step closer whether you like it or not.

      This legitimising de- legitimising thinghy on the yes or no ballot thing is just mince and doesn’t wash with them .They listened to the bullshit- why do you think taht is/
      So it’s about being smarter next time

      Now a couple have said they would be yes next time but a few are pissed off the devo max point wasn’t pressed by MP’s in parliament because they weren’t fully convinced we could go alone without proving it.They’re not hard no voters and it’s these types of people you need to convince, not me.
      So by basically saying their chumps ain’t gonnae persuade them. They’ve said why was the case not pressed by MP’s in parliament for a year or so?

    130. Cubby says:

      Dave McEwan Hill@9.01pm

      A misunderstanding. Never meant it to come across that your post said that. It was just a statement by me.

    131. Iain 2 says:

      Devo max, I think things have moved on a little past this.
      Who wants pink American slime in their burgers, which apparently will be legal according to the American department of agricultures latest ruling.
      This was reported on Sky news.

    132. Maria F says:

      geeo says:
      16 February, 2019 at 8:16 pm
      “You know what you just keep on posting utter shite, in your desperate attempt to attack my facts of the matter”

      Your insults are not going to make me stop.

      “You are so desperate”
      Desperate? For what? I am no politician concerned that is going to lose a seat they do not deserve. I am just a voter that had her eyes open in 2014 and I has kept them open ever since. I am a voter that is disgusted at what Labour, lIbdems and Tories are doing to Scotland and utterly disgusted at the institutions in this union that are allowing this disrespect to democracy and to the international treaty that keeps this union going to happen.
      If that makes me desperate, then so be it.

      ” that you try to attribute a CAMERON QUOTE”

      Cameron told us that we will become the most devolved nation of the world should we voted no. We voted no, so time to deliver and make Scotland the most devolved nation in the world.

      “I was quoting what CAMERON SAID, not me, you blithering idiot”

      Keep insulting if that is how you unwind, as I said above that is not going to make me shut up nor intimidate me, quite the opposite in fact, it is making me thing that you are losing your cool because you have realised that you have simply lost your argument. You want to make me shut up? Then use your brain and bring something worth while reading. That will make me shut up.

      By the way, why are you so obsessed in defending Cameron? Cameron was the negligent idiot that gambled the UK EU membership because he did not have the balls to stand up to the bullies in his own party as a leader. Cameron is the coward that couldn’t think in anything better to do than drop a crocodile tear or two and run with his tail between his legs while he threw the bombshell of brexshit over everybody else. It was so easy, he just had to stand in front of parliament and say, “sorry folks, this was a bad idea and at the end of the day the referendum was only advisory and Scotland has not given consent to give up EU membership”. But as I said, the idiot did not have the balls and rather covered his backside and leave swiftly the scene of the political crime (metaphorically speaking) he had just committed leaving an absolutely tool in charge than acting like a man with a backbone, staying and salvage what he could. He may have the looks and the stature but he certainly does not have the balls or charisma.

      So, some role figure you have chosen, geeo. Way to go.

      “Of course the phrase SHOULD have been “dissolve” but that is OUR terminology NOT WHAT CAMERON SAID”

      And? Since when Cameron is the messiah and we have to take his word as gospel? If he is wrong is wrong, and if the correct word to use is “dissolve” that is what we should use, instead of indulging in their lies.

      “I shall be ignoring your pig ignorant self indulgant shite from now on, you clearly are not as balanced where you need to be”

      Keep pressing the accelerator geeo, so you can crush the credibility you have left just a little bit faster.

      “If you want to legitimise the Vow by accepting it as a genuine offer”

      It was a genuine offer. It was published, it was announced, it was offered during Purdah and signed by the 3 most senior political figures of the UK: the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime MInister and the Leader of HM Opposition. Are you implying that the figures and the signatures of the 3 most senior political and government figures of the UK are totally worthless? Does that mean that any law the PM of the UK and the Leader of HM Opposition sign are also worthless?

      “despite being NOT ON THE BALLOT”

      Where exactly was in the ballot our consent for England MPs that do not hold the mandate of a single vote from Scotland to change the only status quo we gave consent for the union to continue on, WITHOUT our consent? What is good for the geese is good for the gander.

      “rather than the reason we were robbed of independence”

      You are putting the cart before the horses. For better or for worse, we did not vote for independence but sure as hell we voted for THE Status quo we had in front of us in 2014 that also included the vow, Devo Max/becoming the most devolved nation in the world, an union of equals, leading not leaving the UK and EU membership. For as long as the UK PM, the UK ex-PMs, the UK Parliament, the UK gov, the Supreme Court and Labour, Tories and LibDems refuse to deliver that Status quo we are indeed being robbed of it.

      “then fill yer boots”
      My boots are full only when I am wearing them and I like it that way.

      Westminster is in borrowed time geeo and you know this as well as I do. For as long as Scotland does not have as many devolved powers as the Faroe Islands, the vote we cast in 2014 has not been respected. For as long as the PM of the UK, the Deputy PM of the UK, the ex-PMs of the UK, the Leader of HM Opposition, the UK parliament, the English Supreme Court, Labour, Tories and Libdems refuse to accept what the people of Scotland actually voted for in 2014 and that the only status quo we gave consent for the union to continue on was the one we had in front of us in 2014, they are reneging on our vote and ilegitimising our consent to keep the union going.

      “If ypu order independence from amazon”
      The concept never crossed my mind. I rather order independence via referendum, thank you.

      “and deliver fuck all”
      My customer rights mean that if the goods I have paid for have not been delivered, are faulty, are not fit for purpose or they do not fit the description the vendor made of the goods, I am entitled to a replacement or to demand my money back. In this instance, due to breach of contract, due to that the status quo we got is not what we voted for, the people of Scotland can demand its 2014 vote back. And that is exactly what I am doing, unless the English establishment and its puppet institutions deliver the status quo what was in that contract in 2014, I demand my vote back.

      “Apparently you want the chips”
      No, actually, I want the whole lot.

      “Good for you”
      Thank you.

    133. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Went to see my niece competing in a swimming ‘meet’ this afternoon in Irvine’s replacement for the Magnum Centre (forget the name). Very busy and exciting and noisy, hundreds of weans and parents all milling about. Spanking venue, feels really fresh and clean.

      We were there for hours, the niece did well, abody was happy.

      Then we come out and there’s the OO plodding through the town centre, holding up the traffic, banging their big drums.

      Hard to put into words what that feeling is like – from a real high to total scunnery in seconds.

      🙁 🙁 🙁

    134. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Dave McEwan Hill at 9:01 pm.

      You typed,

      “Much talk about us getting a good marching song.”

      OK, I know it’s definitely NOT a slow march but if this was the march musicians and mp3 players had been featuring during the procession down the Royal Mile, the whole shebang would have taken around half an hour to reach the end!

      Everyone striding out, ‘with mah best gal bah mah side’!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCptMS8IZvA

    135. yesindyref2 says:

      And now for something completely different.

      Saw a reference to Gavin Williamson, or Gung-Ho Gavin (GHG) as I call him. Well, when he came in bright and visible, a mooted future PM, he was a breath of fresh air after Fallon. There were talks of cutting 1,000 Royal Marines and flogging off Albion and Bulwark (amphib support ships). He soon put a stop to use that, and got more budget to do so. Fine, a hero, the UK is a maritime “nation”, pretty damn stupid to cut marines who have done so much.

      Then the QE carrier, and all the talk is about it being a deterrent. Also fine, if there’s an ability to strike back with a well (barely) defended carrier strike group it’s clearly a deterrent in the first place.

      But then GHG starts going the Hague way and goes for the posturing. The QE will sail for the South China Seas and see off those dastardly Chinese and Russians. Strangely enough they didn’t like that and responded in a naturally hostile fashion.

      The daft thing is the QE’s first deployment was long planned to be in – the South China Seas. So GHG said nothing new, just the way he put it.

      Ho hum.

    136. geeo says:

      Cubby @8.33pm

      At least someone can read what is written rather than what they want it to mean.

      Apparently i am now a cameron apologist for QUOTING HIM ffs !

      Too many on the saturday night sauce methinks.

      Now i find i ‘exploded’ on a football forum!!!

      I remember simpler times, when i was accused of just being you, Cubby!

      I don’t half get around i guess, deary me !

      As for you, robbo, when did i insult anyone who voted No because of the illegal ‘vow’ ?

      Quote me ?

    137. Rock says:

      Gullaneno4 says:
      16 February, 2019 at 7:18 am

      “Got to love the HoC.
      It is against protocol to tell another MP that they are a liar even when they are telling outrageous porkies.”

      Same protocol in the devolved Scottish parliament.

    138. yesindyref2 says:

      In other headline news from the Herald just to slip this in.

      “Brexit hit Flybmi plunges into administration as all flights cancelled”

      “Ian Murray says Jeremy Corbyn’s stance on Brexit pushing pro-Remain Labour MPs ‘to the brink'”

      “Is Rees-Mogg’s claim that the death rate in Glasgow was the same as Boer War concentration camps true?”

      (the conclusion being – no – the Boer War camp deaths were “more than 10 times that of Glasgow at the time”).

      All very interesting. Sad about Flybmi all the same, hope nobody here affected by that.

    139. Cubby says:

      I do find it strange that posters who post criticisms about others posting criticisms do not seem to realise that they are just doing what they are complaining about.

    140. Cubby says:

      Yesindyref2@10.05pm

      Is there any explanation as to why Rees – Mogg picked Glasgow for the comparison? Or is just a bit of casual English superiority? Why not Newcastle or Birmingham? Or was it just another Britnat lying off the top of his head.

    141. Cubby says:

      An observation.

      There is a comment on what you understand to be what happened re the indyref1. This should not be confused with what may well be the best way to describe it to different potential yes voters as this will vary with who you are speaking to if you want them to vote yes next time.

      Two different things.

    142. K1 says:

      Nana posted a link about Flybi going into administration at 7.25pm Yiref2, just in case anyone missed it 🙂

      http://archive.is/Cnjjg

    143. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Brian Doonthetoon at 9.45

      Written By “Johnny” Lord Bannerman, Ray Michie’s father and a member of both the Liberal Party and the SNP (of which he was a founder member) when you could be in both parties.

    144. yesindyref2 says:

      @K1
      Thanks, I was otherwise busy 🙂

      For me the important thing is this: “The British company, which flew 17 regional jet aircraft on routes to 25 European cities, says Brexit has been a major factor in its demise.” which the Herald actually put in its main page heading title thing.

      Brexit is starting to hit in an obvious way, and hit big.

      Won’t be long now.

    145. stewartb says:

      Been catching up on today’s thread. IMHO it has been polluted by some abusive language that detracts from this site and its BTL discussions.

      I hope that the many Yes groups running street stalls today didn’t convince anyone undecided about Indy to visit Wings this evening and read BTL: they may have been disappointed to say the least at the abusive aggressive tone of some of the exchange. Whatever the merits or otherwise of an argument, the abusive language is unnecessary and counterproductive.

    146. Colin Alexander says:

      Iain 2 says:
      16 February, 2019 at 9:27 pm
      “Devo max, I think things have moved on a little past this”.

      Devo-max would be the starting point, not the finish line.
      Devo-max is what the people have already voted for in 2014.

      The people also voted for indyref2 so binding referendums would also be reserved to Holyrood too. Let UK Parliament do the non-binding ones with their sovereign Queen in Parliament and non-sovereign people of the rest of the UK.

      Also, if food standards and agriculture is reserved to Holyrood, we can ban pink slime burgers.

    147. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “..food standards and agriculture is reserved to Holyrood, we can ban pink slime burgers.” @Colin Alexander says 16 February, 2019 at 11:56 pm

      More disinformation from the ‘Man at C&A’

      The whole reason the Scottish Parliaments EU Continuity Bill was gazumped by Westminster (with PO Ken Macintosh’s help) was so Westminster can retain Environmental(too allow Fracking), Food Standards (to allow these to be lowered to allow US Imports), Agriculture, Fisheries, Forestry (resources) and Food Labelling (to ensure Union Jackery to conform with WTO rules).

      So no, after 29th March Holyrood CANNOT ban “pink slime burgers” or any other import (that’ll be up to Michael Gove)

      But you knew this, didn’t you ‘Man at C&A’?

    148. Thepnr says:

      @stewartb

      “Been catching up on today’s thread. IMHO it has been polluted by some abusive language that detracts from this site and its BTL discussions.”

      Really, can you show me where the language is so offensive?

    149. Liz g says:

      Well when all is said and done..
      Cult’s are always on the same page.
      Gangs tolerate no dissent.
      I think we’ve all just demonstrated,Wings is neither.
      Yay us….
      Not one media source can debate or insult like we can,thanks Rev for makin it so.
      All in real time too…

      So when posters claim people will be put off..well I’m not so sure.
      Jeremy Vile
      Big Brother
      Humiliating X factor auditioning
      All this is popular. People are not put off by the exposure of human ….
      :: Fill in yer own word ::…(Cameron I’m lookin at you,for more than just a word)
      The Soaps too.
      Eastenders and the rest, all following the curtain twitching of Coronation Street.
      Part of the fall of the MSM in MHOP is that those who want to express a different point of view are stymied?
      Here the ONLY rule seems to be don’t get personal!
      So
      I wouldn’t be so sure that the (shall we say) robust arguments put people off… “if ” I’m remembering right only a small portion of readers actually comment.
      Therefore,it could be argued that,all these lovely,crazy,Wingers,are the most honest representatives of the Yes movement! We tell it like it is… readers like that and the reader stats seem to bear that out.
      Also
      I’m minded to ask!
      If not here then where?
      This site is unique… Let’s not make it main streem..Aye? 🙂

    150. Maria F says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      16 February, 2019 at 8:44 pm
      Maria F at 6.58

      “The reason Devo Max was not on the ballot paper was that it was undefined and it cannot be defined”

      Sorry, I do not agree with that. Devo Max is even specifically defined for Scotland in Google:

      “Devo max is short for ‘devolution max’ . The term has come to mean a transfer of powers from Westminster to Holyrood which would result in the Scottish Government having control over everything except foreign affairs and defence.”

      That above is the first entry you get when you search for “Devo max”.

      In my view Devo Max was not inlcuded in the ballot because the English establishment knew a majority of the electorate would go for that option and they know as well as we do that the seeking of autonomy is a continuous process that would not stop with devolution, devo max, federalism. Sooner or later the thirst of Scotland for autonomy will only be quenched with independence.

      In 2013 support for the union was over 75%. Cameron’s arrogance never for a second allowed him to think Mr Salmond and Ms Sturgeon would ever be capable of turning that vote around. But they did and the English establishment started to panic when those polls a week before the vote showed a win for the Yes vote.

      “unless of course it means independence”
      Independence is the natural progression of Devo Max. Devo Max is useful when the population wants more autonomy but they are still insecure, and that insecurity is what the English establishment has been exploiting for 300 years to keep control of Scotland’s assets. Devo Max would have helped to rid of that insecurity.

      “The devolution we have at the moment is about as far as it can go before it becomes unsustainable in a unitary state”

      While you may be totally correct, the English establishment still included Devo Max in the status quo we voted for in 2014 therefore they are now bound to deliver it or declare the vote we cast in 2014 null, because you cannot have both.

      It is not Scotland’s fault that the English establishment offered Devo Max. It was not wrong for Scotland to accept Devo Max when it was put at our doors. It was wrong for the English establishment to offer it in the first place when they did not intend to deliver it, therefore it is now for the English establishment to solve the problem they created, not for us to let them out the hook without delivering what they promised.

      If you go to a car dealer and they offer you a Mercedes for the price of Fiat Panda because they are desperate to keep you as a customer, it is not you who is to blame here for accepting the bargain, it is the seller who is to blame for offering what they cannot/will not deliver.

      “providing irreconcilible complications that would militate against sensible and coherent government”

      I completely disagree. Those “irreconcilable complications” would be very easily solved by proper federalisation of the UK and by having 4 parliaments with the exact same powers instead of the stupid asymmetric “devolution” the English establishment insist in having now.

      It is not because of Scotland that England does not have its own Parliament. it is because the English establishment knows that the moment England has its own parliament and has to abide by limited block grants like Scotland is today and the moment Scotland’s vote counts as much as England’s vote, their control over the UK (and Scotland’s assets) is gone.

      In business you have to be ruthless, and I am sorry but running a political union is business. Scotland did not do anything wrong by accepting Devo Max. The English establishment should have thought twice before sending its useful idiots to offer it when it had no intention whatsoever to deliver it.

      Devo Max is not the main goal, it never wasa. But Devo max is what we achieved in 2014 and therefore would be the starting line in indyref2. By demanding it to be delivered we are not jeopardising the search for independence. We are ensuring that these arseholes in the English establishment do not fool us again by offering what they do not intend to deliver.

      We should be moving forward, not backwards. Renouncing to what we won in 2014 is moving backwards, not forwards.

    151. Cubby says:

      Lizg@3.01am

      Very well said. Too often people complain about some disagreements amongst posters when the vast majority are in fact people agreeing.

    152. Cubby says:

      Maria F@10.24am

      Excellent post with which I agree with the vast majority.

      With regards to asymmetrical devolution in the U.K. as at present. I find that most people who have thought about it assume that the devolution across the U.K. is the same ie symmetrical.

    153. Cactus says:

      Or-dah! Or-dah! Division! Clear the lobby, merdey May has done a jobby.

      Liar!:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUdA54Xk8cg

      She’s a Jackass:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgmfV5VLHvs

      Use your lips:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51x532yW1lY

      And all Theresa May ever wanted was to be a real boy.

    154. Cactus says:

      How to tell if Theresa is lying to you…

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inCrfLE6jFw
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28JhyDR8-5M

      Watch out for yer Yahtzee Unionist mental neighbour:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3s4QiK4MSM

      Ian Blackford is a groovy cool dude.

      The PM smells of Pooh.



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