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Standing up for falling down

Posted on November 02, 2015 by

Here’s Kezia Dugdale back in August:

“Too many people in Scotland tell us that they just don’t know what Labour stands for anymore. Under my leadership there will be no doubt what we stand for and who we stand with.”

So thank goodness that’s all been cleared up.

Dugdale’s first party conference as leader oversaw a debate which established that the UK party conference is for the renewal of Trident, the Scottish party conference is against, the Scottish leader is for, the UK leader is against, the UK shadow cabinet is for, and the only Scottish Labour MP is against but will probably abstain.

Frankly we don’t know how you could have any less doubt than that over what Labour stands for with regard to nuclear weapons. We congratulate Kezia Dugdale on so comprehensively eliminating any uncertainty.

But incredibly, the party’s position is even more comical than that.

jbmsp1

jbmsp2

jbmsp3

jbmsp4

Amusingly, the Scottish Labour shadow cabinet doesn’t actually have a spokesperson for defence in it, because defence is reserved to Westminster and therefore essentially none of Scottish Labour’s business. But the de facto one is Jackie Baillie, MSP for the Dumbarton constituency where the Faslane submarine base is located.

At the weekend Baillie was one of those who gave a speech in favour of renewing Trident in the debate at conference, saying that abandoning the nuclear “deterrent” would make the entire base unsustainable. Yet at the same time, the MSP dutifully espoused Labour’s standard claim that it’s actually AGAINST nuclear weapons, but believes that disarmament must be multilateral rather than unilateral.

So let’s walk through that. Labour’s goal, we’re told, is multilateral nuclear disarmament. That must mean that they ultimately DO want to close Faslane and lose the 13,000 jobs they claim depend on Trident, since their de facto spokesperson has just told us that it can’t survive as a normal naval base without the Vanguard subs. When everyone has multilaterally disarmed, it’s bye-bye Faslane.

We’re also told that we have to renew Trident in order to have bargaining chips in these notional multilateral disarmament talks. (And also to protect us from invasion by North Korea or space aliens in the intervening time, but let’s not get into THAT box of madness right now.)

In other words, Labour’s OFFICIAL POSITION is that the UK must spend £167 billion on nuclear weapons it doesn’t want and will never use, so that it can then as soon as possible spend billions more on scrapping them and lose all the jobs that allegedly depend on them.

(The real cost of decommissioning is in fact very likely far less, but remember we’re talking about Labour’s position here. And again, if we’re going to pull apart ALL the holes in its arguments we’ll be here until Christmas.)

You can, at least, see why they can’t manage to all agree on it.

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    119 to “Standing up for falling down”

    1. Mr Joseph Robinson says:

      Just to clear something up. Faslane submarine base is located between Rhu and Garelochead in Argyl and bute, NOT Dumbarton which is West Dunbartonshire.

    2. Irene says:

      Cor, lummie.

    3. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Ideal point for the SNP to remind us that Faslane/Coulport will be the HQ of an independent Scottish defence force and harbour for a Scottish navy (which it will build onthe Clyde)

    4. Tackety Beets says:

      Now let me clear ………..

      Repitition of “Let me be clear ….. ” is always followed by bla bla bla …… muddy waffle !

    5. skozra says:

      ASCII Picard Facepalm for good old Labour lol

    6. One_Scot says:

      Given that it is transparently clear that ‘Scottish’ Labour could not run a bath never mind a country, why on earth would anyone vote for them next May.

    7. MajorBloodnok says:

      What I have gathered from all this is that the “Scottish” Labour Party has concluded that, like the “UK” Labour Party, the only chance it thinks it’s got of gaining any votes is to adopt the polices of whichever party happens to be in Government.

      It’s remarkable how they think that no-one will notice their unprincipled and mendacious tactics in trying to hoodwink the public into voting for them again.

    8. Paul D says:

      Would it not save a lot of time if Labour was to collectively put pants on their heads, shove pencils up their noses and repeatedly say “wibble”?

    9. Doug Daniel says:

      During the referendum, Jackie Baillie was claiming 11,000 jobs would go from Faslane if we became independent. Where did these extra 2,000 jobs suddenly come from? And what about the 19,000 that the UK Government was claiming last year?

      These Trident-fetishists really need to get their numbers straight, or people will start thinking they’re just plucking them out of the air – which I’m sure Jackie Baillie would never DREAM of doing, such is her unwavering commitment to the truth.

    10. Usual nonsensical rubbish from Labour, which will still be spun by their compliant M.S.M into the greatest thing since sliced bread.

    11. Mosstrooper says:

      So… have I got this. Jackie Baillie wont diet because of all the job Greggs the bakers will lose even though all her friends say she should diet but she will diet if every one else diets. Is that it?

    12. DerekM says:

      its incredulous,its mind boggling,its i am going to say it astonishing.

      Absolutely ridiculous position ,you know how we have been saying they were stupid did we underestimate that?

    13. David says:

      AND the ANSWER is FIVE HUNDRED and TWENTY OOOOOH ERRR

    14. creag an tuirc says:

      So SLAB want their comrades all over the UK and all over the world to lose their nuclear related jobs? Yet just Fastlane is a disaster. Idiots!

    15. karmanaut says:

      Scottish labour spent years campaigning to make sure that Scotland could not make decisions about Trident. And only now that they’ve made sure that any vote they take on Trident is utterly irrelevant, do they take a vote on Trident.

      Sometimes I just wish we could just put them in a corner, give them some colouring in books, and let them get on with it.

    16. Ian Brotherhood says:

      JB will set us all straight on this, nae danger, and do it in her inimitable style, with a cheeky wee smile.

      Probably this lunchtime…

    17. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Please remember, SLAB’s diminishing core vote is largely made-up of those few voters who still buy and read the Daily Record.

      These bozos can be told – Craig Whyte’s wealth was “off the radar”; that an Old Etonian, an Old Westminster, a leader of the UK Labour Party and a back-bench Fife Labour MP can be trusted to deliver a Vow to the people of Scotland; that, even after the Vow has been kicked into the long grass, it has been delivered.

      They are not exactly appealing to the intellectual elite of Scotland. Give them two good Old Firm stories per day and the Retard’s core readership is happy.

      Scotland has moved on, it’s just that SLAB an their tribunes on the Record don’t want Scotland to move on. Hence the calls to come home.

    18. donald anderson says:

      Jackie Baillie has been twinned with Trident and promised alms for the poor in Dunbartonshire schemes with the billions saved after multilateral thinking.

    19. Graham MacLure says:

      It is made perfectly clear beyond any shadow of doubt that Labour are totally bankrupt.
      No policies, no ambition, no foresight,no competence. no hope and no credibility.
      It is perfectly clear that Labour are the leading No party in Scotland

    20. Eric Dodd says:

      The STUC/SCND report ‘Trident & Jobs’ – published in April this year – gives the total number of civilian jobs at Faslane/Coulport as 3,185.

      The sources are the MOD and all the companies with employees at Faslane/Coulport, and includes everything from cleaners to senior scientists.

      Baillie would therefore have us believe there are 10,000 military personnel based at the Clyde Submarine Base, but even if they do exist, only the Vanguard crews/support staff and 520 civilian employees are at risk.

      CSB is also ‘home’ to the 780 Royal Marines of 43 Commando RM, the crews of all the other non-Trident submarines, a dozen minesweepers and other surface ships, and their support staff – an absolute maximum of 4,000 jobs.

      Let’s be generous and make it a total of 7,500 jobs – jobs that will not be affected by the loss of Trident !!

    21. Macart says:

      They have of course blown the whole issue of better togetherness out of the water with that vote. They do realise that don’t they?

      The whole devolution journey and Scotland bill debates/votes trashed. The idea of federalism binned and of course the fallacy that was no difference politically north to south.

      I mean they do, don’t they?

    22. robert graham says:

      the dire position Labour in scotland are in even with all the media covering up and parroting anything and everything they spout as true would come tumbling down if even a few would have the backbone to question all this guff we get day and daily , that is why control over broadcasting will be resisted till the bitter end , take away this shield and its goodby Labour .

    23. heedtracker says:

      SLab stuff’s a lot like EVEL, buried, but Torygraph conartists give it a spin

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11968638/Victory-for-Corbyn-as-Scottish-Labour-opposes-Trident.html

      So from last ever SLab MP

      “Ian Murray, the Shadow Scottish Secretary, said that because it got more than two-third support it was now officially Scottish Labour policy and should be included in its 2016 Holyrood election manifesto.

      To whatever this dude thinks he’s doing

      “Neil Findlay MSP, Mr Corbyn’s closest ally in Scotland, said: “The workforce is key, and we have to give reassurance to the engineers, the technicians, the fabricators and the small business owners that we have a real and genuine plan to create jobs for every worker.”

      Vote YES and lose nukes, vote SLab and lose nukes. Simples.

    24. Swami Backverandah says:

      So BritLab want Trident, but BritLab leader doesn’t, and ScotBranchLab don’t want Trident but ScotLabbranchmanager does.
      As well as the more obvious irrelevance of ScotLab policy, there’s another conclusion to be drawn.
      Dugdale’s positioning herself for a future shot at Westminster.

    25. DerekM says:

      @ Macart

      i dont think they do and i dont think they know they just handed a mandate to the Scottish government to stop Trident renewal any way they can,so the only way they can do that is to declare independence if Trident is renewed in Westminster, or another referendum though on this occasion i dont think we will need one.

      Remember oor Eck saying there is many roads to independence well the Trident road just became unblocked ,thanks Slabbers even though you havnt got a clue lol

    26. mike cassidy says:

      Now if only Kezia and Jeremy could swop jobs….

    27. msean says:

      So trident just got magically 67% more expensive in the last few weeks,they still want it even though the country is suffering austerity with more to come. Buying something you canny afford is living without your means.

    28. Peter Craig says:

      @Paul D
      The fragrant Ms Dugdale is in an impossible position.

      Her grasp on reality is tenuous at best.

      She’s not even on speaking terms with the truth.

      Slab has a talent pool so shallow it qualifies as condensation.

      At this point repeatedly saying ” Wibble” seems as good a plan as anything thats been said before.

    29. Bob Mack says:

      “Confusion of goals,but perfection of means,seems in my opinion, to characterise our age” ——–Albert Einstein.

    30. Author_Al says:

      In July 2012, SNP announced what would happen to Faslane, post Independence. SNP defence spokesman – Angus Robertson MP – said Scotland would continue as a member of Nato but Faslane would be decommissioned as a nuclear submarine base and turned into the country’s main naval headquarters.

      Thus guaranteeing local jobs and probably creating more, plus saving 167 billion. Might be good if SNP reiterated this point.

    31. Charles mc says:

      520 jobs.

    32. Jim Mitchell says:

      May just be my ageing memory here but didn’t Labour use to say it was 20,000 jobs?

    33. muttley79 says:

      I am reasonably sure that during the referendum campaign the MoD confirmed that only just over 500 jobs were dependent at Faslane on Trident. Of course Scottish Labour have lied quite a lot about this, with Jackie Baillie being the worst for this.

    34. Nana says:

      The party’s over

      RadioGuyGlasgow ?@RadioGuyGlasgow · 3h3 hours ago
      Just been told under 180 attended the SCOTTISH Labour Party conference! (From an attendee). Classic!

      Also some of the people running the stands said the scotlab conf was a complete waste of time and money.

    35. Charles mc says:

      I’m going to bet the final budget hits 300 billion

    36. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Eric Dodd at 11.24

      Good post. Faslane /Coulport is essentially a conventional naval base – and seriously underutilised as that as all the big ships have been moved to the South of England. It will be the HQ of the Scottish Defence Force and a base for the navy we will have to build (on the Clyde) when we are independent,
      Scotland is the only maritime nation without an armed fleet in its waters,
      Another union dividend. We have no ships giving us conventional protection but we will be blown to smithereens if some lunatic starts a nuclear war.

    37. Simon says:

      I really don’t see what the problem is.

      If we don’t have nuclear weapons then how are we going to make the world a safer place by getting rid of our nuclear weapons?

      Surely the more these weapons cost the better it is, we have our international reputation to think of.

    38. GrahamB says:

      They have been hiding behind multilateralism for years.
      Multilateralism means not having to do anything as it depends on everyone agreeing to disarm at the same time. That would include rogue states like North Korea and Israel so that’s never going to happen. It’s a cop out.

    39. terry says:

      @Peter 11.42

      “Slab has a talent pool so shallow it qualifies as condensation.”

      Love that!

      The journalism on this site is head and shoulders above the MSM and well worth the monthly debit. Thanks Rev – and all you smart Wingers.

    40. heedtracker says:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-34694101

      Its ok, BBC shyster says its just “exposed” a rift in a union so its no big deal really, usual stuff.

      Down at the bottom of Glen’s BBC spin

      “The Scottish Labour vote does not change the position of the wider Labour party, let alone the position of the UK government.”

      BBC Scotland UKOK fraud on Scotland trips happily along.

    41. Brian Powell says:

      The SLabour plan is this: they know the SG is running Scotland well but, with the help of ‘Scottish press’ and BBC they hope to persuade us this not so, then we would vote for them.

      The press and the BBC would stop reporting ‘everything is bad’, Labour would bask in the glory and all would be well for SLabour ever after.

      They think.

    42. Andrew McLean says:

      I think John McTernan had it spot on when discussing this issue this morning with Elaine Smith MSP on Good Morning Scotland,
      Elaine stated the Scottish branch policy under autonomy is “vote for us and we will do everything possible to persuade our colleagues elsewhere what we want”
      John in reply stated the following, discussing devolved matters for Westminster “its irrelevant” – “nothing to do with Scottish labour” – “shows the stupidity of Scottish Labour under Kezia Dugdale” and then finishes with the new clarion cry for Scottish Labour – “Scottish Labour better for middle class Scotland”

      I think that best sums up their true Autonomy on trident and their policy on anything really and Labour in Westminsters policy on Scottish branch politics.

      If you read this Kezia, here is a backing track you will find relevant.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzTeLePbB08

    43. Angra Mainyu says:

      Funny post, Rev., but only if you take what Labour Loons say about multilateral disarmament seriously, which very few do.

      Interestingly enough, in one of the TV debates last year a guy stood up and made the same point — if you believe in multilateral disarmament then what about the jobs and local economy in Helensburgh? Nobody in the audience or any of the politicians seemed to understand what he was saying and you were left with the impression that the guy was a bit nuts.

      But he wasn’t. If he was nuts it was because he took the multilateralism crud seriously and it’s more or less a given that multilateralism doesn’t mean you believe in disarmament at all — it actually means you believe in having/retaining nukes.

      Interesting how these politicians and news commentators get so emotional about jobs when it’s Trident and the arms industry we are discussing. The very same people have devoted the last 40 years to exporting jobs to places like China and Eastern Europe; in actual fact, when you look at the role of the WTO and Britain’s hand in it, along with international trade and relations generally, everything is geared towards exporting production overseas and making sure they can do so.

    44. Tamson says:

      Should the article title not be something like “We could be diving for pearls?”

    45. Dave Hansell says:

      “We’ll be here till Christmas.”

      What year?

    46. Proud Cybernat says:

      What a cynical and morally bankrupt ‘position’ to take.

      “Oh, we can’t scrap any concentration camps as it’ll put the guards out of work. If the others shut down their concentration camps, then we’ll cnsider shutting ours.”

      That is effectively what these buffoons are saying.

      SNP YES/YES SE2016

    47. AnneDon says:

      What Jackie Baillie said is, for once, consistent.

      Claiming to be a multi-lateralist has always been an excuse for doing nothing about disarmament.

      #HappyToHelp

    48. Andrew McLean says:

      Mosstrooper says: at 11:02 am
      So… have I got this. Jackie Baillie wont diet because of all the job Greggs the bakers will lose even though all her friends say she should diet but she will diet if every one else diets. Is that it?
      Actually I am with her on this policy of unilateral belly disbursement!

    49. Nana says:

      @Jim Mitchell

      Article archived

      https://archive.is/9j3ry

    50. Jim McIntosh says:

      Why has no one asked these MPs for a breakdown of jobs directly related to Trident. Surely if they can quote figures of 15K, 13K, 20K or whatever, these figures must come from somewhere?

    51. One_Scot says:

      Seriously, I would not be surprised if ‘Scottish’ Labour came out in the next few months and said they were in favour of Independence.

      Muppets does not even come close.

    52. Ian Brotherhood says:

      That’s the first half hour of John Beattie’s show gone, and no mention of all this Trident-related Slabaramadingdong…

      Perhaps JB was held-up en route to PQ?

    53. Kelpie says:

      Eric Dodd at 11.24

      If you follow the link to the Gaurdian article it says:
      There is a vast infrastructure supporting Trident: there are several thousand naval and civilian staff at its base at Faslane and its warhead base at nearby Coulport; 6,500 staff and contractors are employed testing, building and maintaining its warheads at AWE Aldermaston and Burghfield in Berkshire and hundreds more at the Rolls-Royce nuclear reactor design centre in Derby and the Vulcan reactor testing centre at Dounreay, on the northern coast of Scotland.

      Suggesting that the majority of the jobs (claimed) will be lost in England.
      Although with only 200 warheads I find it hard to believe it requires around 33 people in full time employment per warhead too look after them from a distance.

    54. Valerie says:

      Nana@11.49

      I said yesterday that I thought the applause had been dubbed in on the Slab footage of Kez speech.

      I’m still wondering given attendance at 180.

    55. Auld Rock says:

      Like many of you who know what Perth Concert Hall and Foyer look like when there are 1,200+ Delegates at a Conference. When the TV cameras gave a very brief view inside the Hall it looked awfy, awfy empty to me which might explain why SLAB love to give their results as a percentage. So how many Delegates actually voted to scrap Trident? I recall the great NATO debate at SNP Conference where the result was given as VOTES cast not a percentage. I believe SLAB are feart to tell Scotland just how poorly attended the ‘GREAT DEBATE’ was!!!!

      Auld Rock

    56. mealer says:

      On the previous thread I asked for a bit of help in ascertaining which Scottish shadow cabinet members are anti trident and which are pro.I think it’s important we know who are for and who are against.

      Kezia Dugdale pro
      Jenny Marra pro
      Jackie Baillie pro
      Ken MacIntosh pro
      Sarah Boyack anti
      Alex Rowley anti

      I haven’t found out how the following stand on the issue
      Iain Gray
      Graeme Pearson
      Claire Baker
      Mary Fee
      James Kelly
      Neil Bibby

      Some of the above have abstained in votes on Trident but I don’t have statements from them saying if they’re for,against or neutral.Can anyone help?

    57. Camie McCulloch says:

      When did jobs become the moral reason for keeping and maintaining weapons of mass destruction?

      Is bailley suggesting chemical weapons should be developed as the provide high paid jobs for chemists?

      It’s over 10000 KM between Scotland and North Korea. China, Russia, multiple Asian countries and the whole of Europe are on the flight path of any potential or theoretical missile.

      We can discount Iran now that its nuclear ambitions are to be civil and monitored by the EU, US, Russia, China and the UN.

      Russia? Not unless the west continues to agitate on Russia’s borders, so its down to us.

      The only state that endangers Scotland with nuclear weapons, err, that’ll be the uk at a cost of one hundred and seventy billion pounds!

      labour appear to have adopted this policy after having seen the SNP plough a lone furrow on it for years, then gaining popularity on the basis of its stance. I suppose that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

    58. DavJar says:

      Mr Joseph Robinson, just to emphasise your point – HMNB Clyde (Faslane and Coulport etc) was/were geographically moved to Argyll & Bute (as part of strategically moving Helensburgh) because West Dunbartonshire (where they were at the time) declared themselves a Nuclear Free Zone. That was done by the incumbent Labour councillors who, along with the TGWU hierarchy in Glasgow, continually organized marches and Rallies to ‘Ban the Bomb’. The Labour Party/TGWU didn’t have any problem with their members losing their jobs at that time.

    59. Ruby says:

      ‘And again, if we’re going to pull apart ALL the holes in its arguments we’ll be here until Christmas.’

      That sounds good! It’s getting very cold & dark we need a few laughs on top of that pulling apart the holes in Labour’s arguments could inspire a good few Christmas Cracker jokes.

      I do like a good Christmas Cracker joke and evidence would suggest that there are a lot of very witty people reading Wings.

      Re Greggs: The Greggs I usually go to on a Sunday has closed. Greggs are closing shops all over the place. Are you sure Jackie Baillie is not on the ‘Cabbage Soup Diet’?

    60. Janet says:

      The UK has something like a 90% debt to GDP ratio. And it wants to reinvest in nukes?

      Affordability would seem problematic! Hence why it desperately needs to get its hands on Chinese wealth, if only to keep its head above water.

      And the “UK” Labour Party does not stand in Northern Ireland, so it can’t be “UK”.

    61. Effijy says:

      McTernan on Radio “S….” this morning clearly stated that
      that the SLAB members had No Right to cast their anti-trident vote as Scotland has no control over defence or nuclear weapons?

      It isn’t devolved so they have been stupid to vote in such a manner!

      There was me thinking that Scots had to pay toward having them, and store these missiles, and become a target for foreign missiles?

      He makes it clear, politics is just about getting labour into power. The People, morality, and the cost mean nothing if they control the UK from Westminster.

      Just pay up and shut up and carry out your UK Master’s wishes!

    62. David McDowell says:

      “Under my leadership there will be no doubt what we stand for and who we stand with.”

      Or, as British Labour in Scotland’s flashy new party political video put it:
      “Under my leadership no one will be in any doubt about who we stand for and who we stand with”.

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/god-save-your-mad-parade/#more-77685
      (See 00:10 – 00:16)

      Yes, that’s right. The idiots even managed to balls up Kez’s single most important political soundbite.

      Of course, we already know WHO British Labour in Scotland stand for, and it ain’t the Scottish people.

    63. galamcennalath says:

      Multilateral global disarmament is total bucket off pish!

      There is absolutely no way Israel will every give up nukes. India and Pakistan facing each other with China also manoeuvring for Asian power. Sixty odd years of US/Russian competition. And it has to be said, the US is so overwhelmingly powerful militarily, who can blame any country which feels threatened by them wanting ‘a deterrent”

      So, what sort of idiot thinks those disparate nations in the nuclear club could possibly agree to all set aside all their nukes at once. IMO the best we can hope for is that no one uses them, and meantime take the moral high ground of having nothing to do with them, like New Zealand.

      The UK wants to pretend to be a world power. Part of that is their nukes. It’s a matter of status and prestige.

      As for this insane argument about WMD job creation! Anyone serious thinking along those lines needs to be certified!

      Scotland needs to get out of this mess!

      Perhaps it may all become ‘a trigger’.

    64. muttley79 says:

      @Macart

      They have of course blown the whole issue of better togetherness out of the water with that vote. They do realise that don’t they?

      The whole devolution journey and Scotland bill debates/votes trashed. The idea of federalism binned and of course the fallacy that was no difference politically north to south.

      I mean they do, don’t they?

      *Snigger, snigger.* No, I don’t think they realise that they have just made the argument for independence in regards to Trident, and they are supposed to be on the other side! 😀 😀

      There is no way the British Labour PLP is going to vote against Trident renewal. The so-called newly found autonomy of Scottish Labour will soon be proved to be an illusion yet again. They have just shafted themselves again.

    65. heedtracker says:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGUAEb1EYvE

      Elvis knows. As does socialist worker Tristram, SNP is a cult say UKOK bootboys and Labour’s a sect, say poshboys.

      http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/nov/02/labour-is-in-the-shit-tristram-hunt

      Better vote BetterTogether Ruthie Babes, just please please stop voting SNP, says progressive liberal The Guardian, over and over and over.

    66. Jo says:

      I don’t suppose any of these Labour MPs / MSPs have considered asking their constituents how they feel about nuclear weapons? Aren’t they supposed to represent the views of the people? Or am I just opening yet another can of worms?

    67. Haggis Hunter says:

      So is 13k jobs accurate? I’ve heard variations between 22k(Iain Bloody Davidson)and 450 local jobs.

      We could invest all that cash in something that actually turns a profit, like say renewables, and it helps the world to be a safer place.

      Labour are shite, real shite, their strategy, their goals, their message, all wishy washy, lies and negativity.

      Yet they have so much support in Scotland from the ‘media’ which is really their campaign managers.

    68. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Beattie’s show is nearly done,
      But mention of Trident there was none!

      Did JB get stuck in a taxi?

    69. MrsF says:

      Why are labour (or any other party) allowed to put reserved matters in their manifesto for a Holyrood election? There should be “manifesto police” …

    70. Breastplate says:

      I think Mrs Creosote should have just one wafer thin mint.

    71. peekay says:

      muttley79 says:
      I am reasonably sure that during the referendum campaign the MoD confirmed that only just over 500 jobs were dependent at Faslane on Trident. Of course Scottish Labour have lied quite a lot about this, with Jackie Baillie being the worst for this.

      Yeah, it was about that, 700 is my memory. I was speaking to a pal that has worked at Faslane for many years during the IndyRef. He said that the number given by the MOD also includes a substantial amount of US workers stationed there for intermediate servicing of the missiles. There’s a mini-MOT done on them at the end of every active patrol(This is the bit the US workers do at Faslane) and every so often during the training cycle of a sub it will head over to Kings Bay(Georgia, US) to swap it’s complement over for a fully-MOT’d set

    72. Doug McG says:

      Let’s get this straight and simple , JaBa wants re-elected by the workers and their families. Kez is tooking for a bigger job at Westminster and doesn’t want to blot her copybook meantime and the Labour tribe want a counter to the SNP position . Everybody gets what they want , happy days .

    73. ahundredthidiot says:

      You put your left leg in, your left leg out……..

    74. Macart says:

      @muttley 79

      Stunning isn’t it?

      Defence a reserved issue. Their stance during the referendum, Smith Commission and Scotland bill debates to retain Westminster sovereignty over the issue of defence and now?

      FUBAR!

      You can’t get rid unless your parliament has the power to do so and you can’t make policy unless the whole party agrees with you.

      Just incredible.

    75. ArtyHetty says:

      Might not be totally relevant here, but do people in England know what labour of ukok even stands for? Does the pretendy lefty grauniad even care what labour stands for, no, they just keep telling their pretendy lefty readership to believe them with SNP baaad. What does the grauniad stand for.

    76. Grouse Beater says:

      Ian: Beattie’s show is nearly done, mention of Trident there was none!

      Westminster claims Scottish Bill delivers great powers for Scotland, failing to add, and helps keep Scotland the nation it is – North Britain

    77. HandandShrimp says:

      Multilateralism is just a fig leaf. There is no serious expectation of disarming but it salves a troubled conscience.

      By the same dint the NRA in the US are multilateralists – show them that no criminals have guns and they will consider gun control (maybe).

    78. Sinky says:

      Nana says: @1.09 Good article by Ponsonby and amazing that Labour’s tax credits plans have not been challenged.

      Just watched recording of Sunday’s Politics Show. Just compare and contrast Gordon Brewer’s kid gloves treatment of Ian Murray compared to the hectoring of Angela Constance as the reply did not suit the BBC.s narrative on educational inequality.

      Broadcasters and journalists should read this article in TES formerly known as Times Educational Supplement dated 30 October 2015.

      https://www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/scotlands-record-sending-poorer-teenagers-university-improving

      Scotland is doing a comparatively good job of sending poorer students to university, according to new analysis.
      Within the UK only Northern Ireland, London and the West Midlands perform better at minimising the impact that poverty has on a pupil’s chance of accessing higher education …………and concludes that “current criticism of [Scotland’s] higher education system is unfounded”.

      The proportion of 18-year-olds from Scotland’s most disadvantaged areas getting into university has risen to 15 per cent in 2014 from 7.2 per cent in 2004. But that still leaves Scotland behind Northern Ireland (25.7 per cent), England (20.7 per cent) and Wales (18.2 per cent).
      “Scotland’s inequality of access does seem to be the highest of any UK nation, but over the past decade it has come down the most,”

      Also “Latest Student Loans Company figures published in June 2015 also show that average student loan debt in Scotland is the lowest in the UK,

    79. SonOfAGunn says:

      Watching “highlights” of Slab Confirm. Kezia says 6000 children leave school unable to read properly?

      Really dreary performance by Ken!

    80. Angra Mainyu says:

      Just thought I’d point out to everyone currently embroiled in the Trident discussion that “jobs” is code for profits.

      You can more or less apply that across the board, thus increasing the minimum wage will cost us jobs, not renewing trident will cost us jobs, curtailing the arms industry will cost us jobs…. and so on.

      Hope that helps.

    81. Cadogan Enright says:

      @ Paul D 11.42

      I felt your post at 10.53 was a far more comprehensive way of dealing with this

    82. BenInsular says:

      @Kelpie at 12.37 pm

      I don’t find it hard to believe the “33 jobs per warhead” figure if you factor all the supporting roles in – we’re talking the MoD here!

      Anyway, if you include everything that hinges on ANY job, down to childminding/dogwalking/lorry drivers servicing the supermarkets people shop in or whatever, you can come up with pretty large figures! The implication is that such supporting service jobs would totally disappear, rather than the firms adapting to change and finding other markets, as all companies have to do in such circumstances. Who has a job for life guaranteed nowadays?

      We’re also funneling a hell of a lot of money to America, via Lockheed Martin etc.: http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jul/30/trident-bases-run-private-companies

      A lot of the Faslane blue-collar civilian workforce is either bussed/ferried in or drives in every day from considerable distances (if you’ve ever been at Faslane or Coulport at shift change, you’ll have seen evidence of this), from Dumbarton, Port Glasgow, Greenock etc., with a comparatively small number living in the immediate locality of the base. Contractors and base naval personnel may live in the area for varying periods (many of the single navy personnel are actually quartered in the base nowadays – there’s been a massive building programme in the last ten years, cramming high-rise blocks close together on-site), but only a small proportion choose to stay in the area after retirement or redundancy as their roots and extended families are often elsewhere. With contractorization and associated cutbacks, such adjustments have already been happening as jobs have been pruned or people have bailed out as they didn’t like the new working conditions over the years.

      Labour snuck in a resolution saying that building “Trident” subs would support the Scottish steel industry the day before it voted to do away with the weapons that would be deployed on them. Aside from the question of whether the facilities have ever existed in Scotland to produce the specialist metals required, already there’s obfuscation there – scrapping Trident is one thing, but it’s got a finite lifespan anyway, and the more pressing issue at the moment in terms of the weekend’s resolutions is the replacement, whatever it’ll be called. That’s on top of Baillie trying to confuse the issue by claiming that Trident is the be-all and end-all of employment at Faslane.

      It’s not as if all this is new – back in the 1980s, the Alternative Employment Study Group in Dumbartion identified the jobs that directly relied on Trident at Faslane/Coulport, and the figures weren’t much different then. There was some discussion with the base unions about conversion to peaceful uses at the time, but over the years they’ve done very little but pay occasional lip service to the issue, which seems like a dereliction of duty. Any decommissioning programme is also going to create jobs over a considerable period anyway, but those who use employment as an excuse to retain nukes never include mitigating factors like that.

      As happened with the Chevaline update to Polaris, the MoD and its contractors have had to call on specifically skilled workers who’d already retired to service the warheads as nowadays nobody has the training and experience required – so some of the jobs they’re talking about “safeguarding” are ones that had already gone for a Burton then been resurrected. And I’m talking about old guys you’d be worried if they were to cross the road on their own in some cases.

      A few years ago, Helensburgh CND was holding its Hiroshima Day lantern floating at the pier, and one old Labour hack for some reason invited Jackie Baillie to attend. Her contribution to the sensitive commemoration of the atrocity was to say “We all want to get rid of nuclear weapons, we just disagree about how to do it.” This was greeted by a silence that rivalled the one that followed Dugdale’s remarks on Question Time last week.

      She’s a shocker, and gets a hell of an easy ride in the local press, which is generally dreggy. I sincerely hope she loses her seat next year, though she’ll no doubt somehow sneak in on the list if that happens.

    83. Nana says:

      @Angra Mainyu agree with what you say, also I wonder who might have shares in the arms industry. We all know some politicians have shares in private health providers so it would be interesting to find out where else shares are being held and by whom.

      I remember a while ago seeing an article which detailed pension schemes linked to arms manufacture. Sadly I can’t find it now.

      Anyway I posted this link a while back…

      http://www.politico.eu/article/uk-trident-nuclear-program/

    84. Caroline Corfield says:

      For those looking to confirm the job numbers dependent on Trident at Faslane…

      http://www.nuclearinfo.org/article/uk-trident-operational-berths/ministry-defence-reveals-just-520-faslane-jobs-depend-trident

      This article uses the information given, in response to a Freedom of Information request, by the Ministry of Defence. One presumes Ms Baillie doesn’t believe the Ministry of Defence, which is her prerogative, but it does make what she says simply an ill-informed, barely logical opinion that ought not to be repeated by anyone who wants to be considered well informed, or indeed vaguely intelligent. {members of the press I’m looking at you}

    85. Lesley-Anne says:

      Aha … the good old Multilateralism approach by wee Jackie.

      Call me cynical if you like, and know a lot of folks will and continually do 😉 , but wee Jackie can spout all she likes but at the end of the day all this guff about Multilateralism is just that … GUFF!

      If we ignore the non permanent, nuke weapon holding, members of the U.N. security council for now then we have Russia, China, America, France and some other country whose name slips my mind for now. Just taking these five countries I can not see them all agreeing together, all at once, at the same time multilaterally to dispose of all their nukes. Therefore, in my view, multilateralism can never be achieved.

      If you add to this mix the other nuke weapon holding countries that we know about, North Korea, India, Pakistan and Israel (strongly suspected) then it is a definitive gimme that multilateralism can NEVER happen.

      Therefore all this GUFF from oor wee Jackie, and others, about multilateralism is is just that … GUFF and a non starter from the word GO!

    86. TD says:

      I’m surprised that the issue of jobs at Faslane gets so much air time. If the UK government had built a concentration camp at Faslane with gas chambers for exterminating some unfortunate group, would we be asking if it should stay open in order to preserve the jobs of the people who operated tha gas chambers? I think not.

      Arguably, Trident is as obscene as the scenario I describe, but we keep getting hung up on the jobs it provides. Would we really keep Trident to protect 500 or so jobs?

    87. One_Scot says:

      Kezia – ‘Ask not what the problem is – but how you can solve it’

      If she actually said that, then I am genuinely worried that there is something very wrong with how our political system works.

    88. Col says:

      Why doesn’t the Scottish government just say that we are going to renegotiate the terms of our union with England plus other parts of the UK.
      Say here’s our terms and when Westminster inevitably turns round and says no on things like trident, control of our taxes, oil, welfare etc then hold ref 2 so that everyone is in no doubt the only way for Scots to get what we wish is to take control of all these things through independence.
      The EU can beg us to stay also if they wish, we have a strong hand within Europe also Incase anyone needs to be reminded

    89. Jack Murphy says:

      Nana said at 1:09pm:-
      http://ponsonbypost.com/index.php/news/49-why-the-media-will-push-dugdale-s-tax-credit-con
      This is essential reading regarding the Press and Broadcasters’ tactics in the run-up to May’s Scottish election. 🙁

      Mr Ponsonby closes his article:-
      “But she will be protected from scrutiny by a media machine intent on denying the SNP a majority of MSPs next year.
      Newspapers and broadcasters are going to push Dugdale’s tax credit con for all it’s worth for one simple reason. It’s all they and Labour have.” 🙁

    90. Nana says:

      @Caroline Corfield

      Well informed, intelligent members of the press are thin on the ground. Actually seeing some of the comments from some of them makes me wonder if some have gone over to the dark side or perhaps they never actually left.

      https://twitter.com/iainmacwhirter/status/661134167720202240

    91. muttley79 says:

      @Macart

      Stunning isn’t it?

      Defence a reserved issue. Their stance during the referendum, Smith Commission and Scotland bill debates to retain Westminster sovereignty over the issue of defence and now?

      FUBAR!

      You can’t get rid unless your parliament has the power to do so and you can’t make policy unless the whole party agrees with you.

      Just incredible.

      Yes, it is stunning but not in a good way, or at least not for the Labour Party! 😀 The Brit nats in SLAB have just made a major pro-independence intervention, because there is no way on earth that British Labour are going to vote to scrap the renewal of Trident. A few in the PLP might, but the vast majority would never countenance it imo.

      I have read somewhere that the SNP have secured a debate in the Commons before the end of the year on the issue of Trident. The Tories may well bring forward a vote on it because they know British Labour are now going to be exposed in a major way on this issue.

      All that the SNP and Yes supporters need to do from now on in is to remind Labour supporters in Scotland that without independence, Trident is going to remain at Faslane. The bonus is we did not even have to lift a finger! 😀

    92. Peter Craig says:

      As empty gestures go SLABs vote on Trident is right up there with Hitlers Non Aggression pact with the USSR.

      I really cant see Ian Murray having a Tianamen Square moment at Westminster as SLABs single representative and turing the tanks of the Pro Trident lobby.

    93. Angra Mainyu says:

      Nana, thanks for the link to that; it was an interesting read.

      I’ve noticed recently a lot of talk that suggests the Americans would actually prefer if the UK did not upgrade Trident and instead invested in conventional/NATO forces; the idea is that they would prefer we spent 2% of GDP on conventional forces in line with commitments made within NATO, with the US providing us all with a Nuclear umbrella.

      I don’t really believe any of it and assumed all along that it was just spin.

      Actually, one of the reasons I think they cloak all defence and military policy in seriousness (note the big serious faces that end up in the top jobs, etc.) is because it’s really all based on absurdities.

      This and all other debates on nuclear defence are just absurd to me and I struggle to get past that here and everywhere.

    94. peekay says:

      Caroline Corfield says:

      2 November, 2015 at 2:20 pm

      For those looking to confirm the job numbers dependent on Trident at Faslane…

      http://www.nuclearinfo.org/article/uk-trident-operational-berths/ministry-defence-reveals-just-520-faslane-jobs-depend-trident

      That’ll be about right. I bet those 107 Lockheed-Martin UK Division jobs are the American boys’n’girls who do the mini-MOTs on the missiles my pal was talking about

    95. Muscleguy says:

      @galamcennalath

      Helping to elect the Fourth Labour government in NZ which ushered in the Nuclear Free policy is one of my proudest political moments. It made me proud to be a New Zealander. It took the foreign policy essentially to Non Aligned.

      During singing of the NZ national anthem it is customary to shout just after ‘God Defend New Zealand’: ‘Cause no other bugger will! And expression of realpolitik subsequent to being abandoned by our supposed ‘allies’ over the Rainbow Warrior Affair which happened as a result of that Nuclear Free policy. In response NZ sent a navy frigate to the Mururoa test site in protest. Telling the French that sinking one ship did not mean no presence.

      Note though that the vast majority of Kiwis hold no animus for the French people. It is recognised that a rogue element of the French Government was responsible.

    96. Onwards says:

      Labour’s position is a farce, and so is the fig leaf of multilateral nuclear disarmament.

      They aren’t going to go away, and no nuclear armed nation is going to trust others who say they have disarmed.

      The only realistic thing that can happen to minimise them as far as possible with shared defence alliances such as NATO or a future European defence alliance.

      It is a recipe for disaster for every single nation to have independent nuclear bombs, for the same deterrent reasons given by Trident supporters.
      If the pro-nuclear crowd believed that, they would support giving the bomb to every country so we could have world peace tomorrow.

    97. Ruby says:

      ‘Head of Better Together Alistair Darling said: “I think these retired officers are making the point that, ironically, Nato is a nuclear alliance which the Nationalists now want to be in, and Trident is an important part of that. Herald’

      If SLAB are going with the anti-Trident stance then they will have to explain their views on Nato. Will they say all the info we were given during the IndyRef re Nato was all just scaremongering/lies or will they say they will be happy for the UK to be out of Nato.

      Same applies to Faslane jobs vis a vis Indy Ref.

      Perhaps we could hear Jeremy Corbyn’s views on Nato & Faslane jobs.

      Oh Hang on! I might be getting mixed up ‘Is Jeremy Corbyn pro or anti-Trident?

    98. manandboy says:

      Every man, woman and child in the UK wakes up every day to the ongoing battle to save the British Establishment.

      Fatally wounded by the Establishment’s own bankers in the financial crash in 2008, and with the added threat of the Independence movement in Scotland, which would prove decisive in the demise of the Establishment, the UK is now on a permanent war footing.

      Everything that takes place in the UK has to be understood in that context if the population, upon waking each day, is to avoid living in a dream, and completely misunderstanding the events surrounding them.

      The Union is nearing it’s end. Everyone in the UK will have to adjust to that. Thus far, some are doing so better than others. Then there is Kezia Dugdale and the Labour Party branch office in Scotland.

    99. galamcennalath says:

      Onwards says:

      “a rogue element of the French Government was responsible.”

      Does that imply parts of the French government aren’t rogue? Lucky French!

      The present WM Tory government seems rogue throughout!

    100. Calum McKay says:

      But shadow defence secretary Maria Eagle told the BBC the vote was no more than a CONTRIBUTION to the debate.

      She said: “This is an INPUT from Scottish Labour into the policy-making process.

      “This DOES NOT CHANGE OUR POLICY. Defence is not a devolved matter and Labour party policy has to be set at a UK level.

      “I am conducting a review that will be a SERIOUS ONE, that will be based on evidence, it will have extensive consultation and will be taking views from across the Labour movement and Labour voters.”

      In other words we will do what we want and FECK SCOTLAND!

    101. galamcennalath says:

      IDS has announced Scotland will have the power to reverse tax credit cuts. No, we will have the power to compensate people effected using money we have to find from elsewhere, like raising taxes.

      Money from elsewhere … Hmmm …. Here’s an idea. How about some real devolution where we use our share of Trident renewal on health, state pensions and benefits?

    102. Free Scotland says:

      On Friday, the pictures from the party conference showed a lot of empty seats, but quite a few people in balcony seats. By Saturday, the people sitting upstairs were ordered downstairs to help fill the main auditorium, and the BBC altered the camera angle to cut out the view of the empty upstairs seats. No wonder they’ve been trying to keep “Scottish” labour’s membership numbers top secret! If I were a member of their party (which I never have been and never will be), I’d want to keep it secret too.

    103. Nana says:

      @Angra Mainyu

      I’ve seen stuff online alluding to what the US want the UK to do,[they are the puppeteers after all] and actually linked to some of it on here.

      If you cast your mind back to when Cameron had Obama sing for his supper in stating how much Better together we were and Big Brian appeared on our screens with a pre printed leaflet saying just that, well apparently a 10yr deal had already been struck for trident. So that means the Uk is committed to trident until 2024.

      I don’t know if the person who has stated this on twitter has concrete proof but he/she seems very well informed on a lot of political matters. I don’t recall reading anything at the time re a deal having been done but let’s face it No10 are all about dirty dealing.

    104. AlbertaScot says:

      What’s surprising is nobody has mentioned the “A” word yet. Although McTernan kinda does.

      Apparently there are 30,000 energized, enthused, engaged members of the Scottish Labour Party (Kezzia’s hype and figures, not mine.)

      Yet according to the Scotsman’s token lefty Leslie Riddoch the vote was 70 for, 30 against when the noses were counted in Perth.

      As Stu so vividly pointed out the hall was half empty even when the wheeled out dismal Corbyn – who was supposed to be their star.

      I’m not sure if any of the lazy jurnos ever produced an official delegate count.

      Any old school editor I ever worked for would have kicked their asses around the newsroom for not doing one, but that’s another story.

      So I guess Leslie’s number is the gold standard unless someone proves otherwise.

      Where was everyone? In the pub? Did they hit the A9 early.

      Or did they ABSTAIN!!

      With only 70 yessers out of the mythical 30,000 the legitimacy of the vote can be challenged anytime, anywhere, anyhow.

    105. Iain More says:

      I guess the miserly number of 70 odd SLAB members voting against Trident Renewal was just enough for the Daily Heil to proclaim SLAB BAD and not SNP BAD today. It seems most of the rest of the Brit BS Press and Media couldn’t be bothered with Trident vote at all.

    106. yesindyref2 says:

      OT
      I think Tom Gordon should join the National and be dispassionate to give balance. Paul Hutcheon it’s a shame, he used to be good quite often, uncomfortable, but that’s what an investigative reporter should be, now I don’t even think the DM would give him a job.

    107. I suppose it is also a lie that Jackie baille and Dianne Abbott are to front a feed the world campaigne I mean ?

    108. Clootie says:

      …It was the same at the end of the Spanish inquisition. All those torture skills lost, no re-training for the rack makers, cut backs in (red hot) coal sales.

      That sums up Jackie Baillie’s logic

    109. louis.b.argyll says:

      The first thing intelligent governments do when there’s a financial crash, is to help re-tool industrial infrastructure to be able to adapt quicker than our competitors to shifts in markets and government austerity.

      A global defence windfall tax..will make war too expensive.

      ..can’t fool all of the people, all of the time.

    110. North chiel says:

      “Nana” let’s hope that if the “Scotland” bill falls short of “Smith” that the
      SNP government vote it down .I smell a rat with this so called “Devo mundell”
      especially over the ” timing” as regards Holyrood 2016.
      Perhaps it would suit the “unionists” for Dugdale to be able to run on
      a “Devo max” (Mundell) ticket ? Could this allow Nicola to run with
      Full fiscal autonomy ( on our terms) with a subsequent referendum
      on trident ( location/ expenditure ).
      Hopefully John Swinney and Nicola Sturgeon are closely observing
      the Scotland bill timing as well as content .Any detriment to Scotland,
      send it back to London.
      Perhaps the “gloves will come off” next spring ??

    111. Nana says:

      North chiel absolutely agree and hoping the gloves come off soon. Here’s the nonsense from Mundell…

      https://www.gov.uk/government/news/scottish-secretary-scotland-wins-if-holyrood-uses-new-powers-well

    112. Robert Louis says:

      I fully expect that at the next labour in Scotland branch office shindig, a vote will be taken for Labour in Scotland to ‘support’ Scottish independence, but Iain Murray will disagree. Corbyn will say he is in favour, but will never make it happen, even if he becomes PM, and the UK Labour shadow cabinet will oppose it. Jackie Ballie will bemoan the job losses at Faslane.

      Coming soon to your local red tory MSP, pretendy policies, by a pretendy ‘Scottish’ party.

      The Scottish branch office of Labour really is becoming a parody of itself. Quite, quite, surreal.

    113. Dave the Squirrel says:

      The more slab try to “disambiguate” the situation, the more they reveal themselves to be utterly impotent and at the heel of the UK Diet Tories.

      Carry on. Please, I insist. You can stop after i put a wee cross next to the yellow ‘n’ black ribbon.

    114. Bill Fraser says:

      Now we all understand what the Labor party stands for!Agreeing almost any thing the Tories decide to do in Westminster

    115. Sandy Henderson says:

      OT – Just watched Scotland 2015.
      Mudndell; Who in their right mind voted this sycophant in.
      Had there been more than one tory MP been voted in, in Scotland, he would be making the tea.
      If he were to take elocution lessons, he might get to serve it.

    116. willie says:

      And so Jackie Baillie has just voted with the Tories.

      I wonder if like Alisdair Darling she’ll be attending the Tory Party conferences too.

      Iain Duncan Smith and Gideon Osborne – Jackie:s soul mates. What a swell party – the Labour Party.



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