The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland

Let’s clear something up

Posted on October 30, 2015 by

Asking the question is the easy bit: “If the all-new, super-autonomous Scottish Labour decides to oppose the renewal of Trident, and UK Labour continues to support it, which way do Scottish Labour MPs at Westminster vote on it?”

The answer, unsurprisingly, was a lot more difficult to ascertain.

The only person who currently IS a Scottish Labour MP, Ian Murray, today told Good Morning Scotland that “I take the whip from the UK Labour party”. But he’s also stated categorically several times that he’d never vote for Trident renewal, which immediately makes that impossible under current party policy – he’d have to rebel.

(Good Morning Scotland, BBC Radio Scotland, 30 October 2015)

What we know is that no party in the UK can, self-evidently, stand on two conflicting manifestos at the same time. And as “Scottish Labour” is legally only a subdivision of UK Labour, that would seem to rule out any idea of the Scottish branch office and UK HQ having two different policies on any UK issue.

Brian Taylor of the BBC put that to Kezia Dugdale today, and this is what happened.

Dugdale’s answer – clearly honed somewhat since a trainwreck of an interview with STV’s Rona Dougall last night – was that in the event of such a policy conflict, Labour would have a procedure by which the two entities would arrive at a common position, and that would become the one in the manifesto.

(The procedure is as yet undefined, but we strongly suspect that in practice it would amount to the UK party telling the Scottish branch office to sit down and shut up.)

In other words, despite her protestations – and what Ian Murray said in the full GMS interview, when he told Gary Robertson that Scottish Labour could “have a different position on anything it wants” – what we’ve been saying all year IS the case: Scottish Labour CANNOT have a different policy on any issue that’s reserved to Westminster.

At best, Scottish Labour MPs (we’ll be generous and use the plural here) could reject the whip and abstain, but the vastly higher number of UK Labour MPs would vote for the official position. And of course, it’s always been possible for individual MPs to defy the whip, so such a scenario wouldn’t represent any kind of new “autonomy”.

Dugdale cited comments from Buzzfeed reporter Jamie Ross in defence of her argument that this site’s assertions were incorrect:


But that’s not news – we featured it in our original article on the subject, which quoted the Commission saying The Electoral Commission does not regulate the content of campaign material.” 

The EC indeed doesn’t regulate campaign material, and it’s not the campaign material that would be the problem. That would only arise when someone lodged a challenge against a “Scottish Labour” candidate – should Labour have attempted to campaign on two manifestos that contradicted each other – on the grounds that they couldn’t be representing Labour as they were opposing the policy of the only legal Labour Party.

And we now know that Kezia Dugdale knows that as well as we do, because she’s told us that such a thing won’t be allowed to happen. There will be no “autonomy” on any reserved issues, because there can’t be. Labour will campaign on a single agreed policy platform on both sides of the border, just like it does now.

So that’s that all sorted. Phew!

Print Friendly

    2 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

    1. 30 10 15 17:30

      Let's clear something up | Politics Scotland | ...

    2. 30 10 15 17:43

      Let’s clear something up | Speymouth

    151 to “Let’s clear something up”

    1. bobby mckail says:

      Better you than me mate. ;O)

    2. Iain More says:

      So SLAB will continue to get its arse skelpit by the bosses in London, whatever the BBC and the other MSM and Press says.

    3. Donald MacKenzie says:

      Once someone works out what she said in that interview with Brian Taylor, could you let me know.

    4. Itchybiscuit says:

      Kezia: ‘Thanks Brian, you could have made that interview very uncomfortable for me but you let me off the hook on several occasions’.

      Brian: ‘Any time Kezia doll, SNPBAD!’

    5. Gillian_Ruglonian says:

      Sorry Stu, but I feel that this may rumble on considerably further – to around May next year, perhaps?!

      The whole thing is such a mess, last nights QT audience basically sending Kezia to Coventry is my personal ‘best bit’, but they have nothing else in the tank, and everyone knows it!

    6. X_Sticks says:

      So it that like autonomy on slitts?

    7. Alastair says:

      Unless my luggs are clogged I thought I heard Corburn say in his Scottish Labour Conference speech 1M people in Scotland are living in fuel poverty. with our population of 5.3 ish M is this true?

    8. jimnarlene says:

      Automatons, more like.

    9. macnakamura says:

      Murray never ever says that he would vote against Trident renewal.
      He says and Kezia repeats for him, when it suits, that he will not vote for it.

    10. Capella says:

      Well I’m glad that’s all been cleared up.
      The Labour Conference must be a delight. Unfortunately, I’ve missed it so far.
      Looking forward to the Trident debate though.

      “A trident is a three-pronged spear. It is used for spear fishing and historically as a polearm. The trident is the weapon of Poseidon, or Neptune, the god of the sea in classical mythology. In Hindu mythology it is the weapon of Shiva, known as trishula (Sanskrit for “triple-spear”).


    11. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Sorry Stu, but I feel that this may rumble on considerably further – to around May next year, perhaps?!”

      Well, no, because Dugdale’s told us how it’d going to be dealt with – the idea of “autonomy” on reserved issues is a charade. Where Scottish and UK Labour disagree, they’ll get together and decide that they agree after all before the manifesto is produced.

    12. Brian Powell says:

      Weird, the stuff coming from Corbyn makes me wonder if he knows he is in the country where Scots live, and Scots can hear what he is saying.

      Perhaps he has taken advice from Slab, though it cost them all but 1 of their MPs, that it doesn’t matter what Lab says the MSM will put the ‘right’ message out.

    13. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Murray never ever says that he would vote against Trident renewal.
      He says and Kezia repeats for him, when it suits, that he will not vote for it.”

      Indeed, which is why we phrase it that way in the post.

    14. AndyH says:

      Taylor interviewed her like she was a high school kid getting asked about Politics.

    15. Inbhir Anainn says:

      So Kezia Dugdale in her infinite wisdom (ha ha) doesn’t consider Wings Over Scotland to be a particularly reputable website. More fool her.

    16. West_Lothian_Questioner says:

      I have to take a moment to applaud Rev. Stuart for outstanding shows of patience and perseverance. How many times has this same round of SLAB crap been debunked on WoS now? It’s getting beyond tedious by now, but still Rev. Stuart comes by and slaps it down every time.

      Rev. Stuart, I/we applaud you sir…….

    17. galamcennalath says:

      If SLab dare to vote for policies they aren’t actually allowed to have, then run in May pushing those policies … they are presenting us with clubs to beat them with! Evidence, because it is still needed, that the lie habitually.

    18. Jon D says:

      This really highlights the extent to which Slab have been protected by the Scottish media for so long.

      When probed, Slab have nothing.

      And for the Scottish media, themselves on the rack, to retain at least a modicum of credibility they have to start asking the most basic of questions that matter.

      What goes around comes around…

      Slab; (don’t) R.I.P.

    19. Robert Louis says:

      The current position by Labour is just daft, with people like dugdale wittering on about ‘autonomy’. Everybody in Scotland and their grannies knows that it is hogwash.

      Can Kezia seriously imagine a scenario where the 230 non Scotland Labour MP’s have a policy they like, but Iain Murray disagrees, so they then decide to all change their minds?

      I simply find it hard to believe that journalists are not just laughing their socks off at this. It is truly the most absurd piece of nonsense ever to come from the Scottish branch office of the Labour party.

      Here’s how it REALLY works, Kezia does what she’s told by London Labour. The end.

      I think come May, Nicola and the entire SNP team will run and run with this. It is like a big open goal.

    20. Angra Mainyu says:

      Is this what the Scottish labour Party is reduced to? Is this what they are offering voters? “we’ll agree to abstain” in key policy areas where we can’t find agreement…

      “Vote for us and we’ll abstain, hip, hip, hooray…”

      A complete ad utter effing joke of a position to take.

    21. Sinky says:

      On GMS this morning Ian Murray was incredibly clear that he was quite clear that things were perfectly clear. It’s very clear he will abstain as usual over Trident.

      Corbyn does not appear to know much about the main founder of the Labour Party, the Scot Keir Hardie.

      His first parliamentary by-election was in 1888 in Mid Lanark. His advocacy for Scottish home rule (or independence) drew the backing of the newly formed Scottish Home Rule Association. Its secretary was Ramsay MacDonald, who was associated with Hardie for the rest of the latter’s life. In 1898, the two went to Birmingham to cheer for Scotland as its football team beat England. More importantly, MacDonald was to become the first Labour Prime Minister. They made a formidable pair in regard to home rule.

      Hardie wrote in 1889: “I believe the people of Scotland desire a Parliament of their own and it will be for them to send to the House of Commons a body of men pledged to obtain it.” The following month he called a meeting in Glasgow that went on to form the Scottish Labour Party, which soon merged into the Independent Labour Party.

      Keir Hardie’s first manifesto for the Scottish Labour party famously had three key aims: home rule, a minimum wage, and temperance. Corbyn only supports one of these!

    22. Lollysmum says:

      O/T a bit

      Storify from SNP about Branch Labour in Scotland & UK Labour & Trident. Posted 3hrs ago.

    23. osakisushi says:

      I think the most important thing to come out of the past week has been WoS now being mentioned by MSM rather than airbrushed away.
      Not sure it’s a good thing as RSC is just one bloke.

    24. Tîm Criced i Gymru says:

      BTW, happened to miss QT last night (1st time in ages – away for a couple of days’ break). Could someone tell me around about how far into the prog did the audience go AWOL on Kez the Scottish Red Kestrel (she hunts alone!)? It’ll save me some trawling (not trolling!) Diolch / tapadh leat / thanks.

    25. Chitterinlicht says:

      Good to here Wings mentioned on the telly.

      Gary Robertson was very good this morning. Ian Murray was not.

      Total shambles is what Scottish Labour are.

      Bit cheap Kezia calling you disreputable.

      Quite funny Brian Taylor acknowledging you as source.

      Dont think you are disreputable though hard to tell through internet. Dont care to be honest.

      What i do know is i do not need to read between lines with your writing as you usually provide sources.

    26. craig sheridan says:

      What Dugdale and Murray describe is actually heteronomy which is the polar opposite of autonomy.

      Everything they do is clearly influenced by London. They can suggest what they like but have no power to implement it. That’s the same power any individual in any party already has.

      Do what your told and eat your cereal Scottish Labour Accounting Unit.

    27. Proud Cybernat says:

      Vote SLabour. Our Scottish MPs will vote against official UK Laour Party policy and vote down Trident. It’ll be a blast!

      Even if SLAB had all 59 Scottish MPs they’d still get gubbed by the much larger UK Labour Party in any theoretical WM vote.

      Se, eh, what’s the point in voting SLab? If SLabour MPs want rid of Trident there is only ONE WAY that can be surely be done. It’s to be TRULY ‘autonomous’ from UK Labour i.e. independent.

    28. Marcia says:

      At least she confirmed that there is no ‘Scottish Labour’ Party but a branch of the UK party.

    29. Fiona says:

      We should be fair. According to that, where SLAB disagrees with the UK LAB party and they cannot reach agreement, they are all going to abstain. Some of you seem sceptical about that, but I am not, cos it seems to me this must have been happening quite a lot lately, both in the Lords and the Commons. Abstained on welfare and on tax credits. I was puzzled as to why, but now I know. Only remaining Q is which branch wanted what, to lead to that outcome

    30. Hugh Kirk says:

      As a result of watching the Brain Taylor interviewing The Dug is that I won’t be voting for SLAB with it’s woeful leadership any time soon, if ever.

    31. Scots Wa Hey says:

      Paul Sinclair ex spin doctor and Johann was surprisingly honest on the big debate on Radio Scotland today, I remember his comments during indy ref as frankly disgusting.
      Today he said party had a strategy to fight a SNP safe seat in Aberdeen but London refused to fund and there in shatters the myth of autonomy
      For it relies on London.

    32. Murray McCallum says:

      “Well we are a separate Accounting Unit” Kezia Dugdale

      Well there’s your inspiration right there. To the barricades! There will be a flood of Yes voters back to Labour.

    33. donald anderson says:

      Whatshisbane, the only Labour MP in S******d gets unlimited air and meejah time. If the SBP had only one MP would they be allowed the same time?

      Answerers on an unstamped PC TO EBC londonshire.

    34. Quakeawake says:

      So just in the past few weeks, Kezia Dugdale lies, WoS catches her out with referenced proof.

      Then, Kezia Dugdale lies, WoS catches her out with referenced proof.

      After that, Kezia Dugdale lies, WoS catches her out with referenced proof.

      Finally, Kezia Dugdale lies, WoS catches her out with referenced proof.

      Who would you say is the most reputable?

      Away, Dugdale, and stick your head back up Corbyn’s arse and give us all some peace, FFS.

    35. Murray McCallum says:

      I don’t know, maybe aspirational socialism is all about having your very own Accounting Unit these days.


    36. Grouse Beater says:

      “No man can be servant of twa maisters”

      … old proverb, but apposite to Labour’s clunky contrived attempt at presenting a split personality.

      I recall a good comedy film of a similar disposition: ‘The Man With Two Brains’ starring Steve Martin. His riven character had scenes arguing with himself and then trying to walk off in two opposing directions simultaneously in the huff. Inevitably one half hated the other half, and soon came to mutual blows with the expected result…

      … there was no winner!

    37. Garrion says:

      Classic Labour bait and switch. they are fighting for the right to appear to oppose trident without any danger ever of that opposition having any feckin impact at all.

      *See last 35 years of Scottish Labour policy under Thatcher. Professional carping from the sidelines, this time for ever.

    38. Callum says:

      The election court is going to busy this year, once finished with Mr Carmichael.

    39. yesindyref2 says:

      Two things really. The House of Lords having won its two votes on the tax credits highlights in discussion that the HoL wouldn’t (or shouldn’t) veto legislation that is a financial bill, nor should it veto legislation that is manifesto legislation.

      That highlights the absolute importance in constitutional terms of the manifesto. Which means, indeed, that you just can’t have two different contradictory policies in the single manifesto, nor can you have multiple manifestoes for a single party.

      Which brings us to the second thing. The only way indeed that Scottish Labour can have different policies in a manifesto, is to be a separate party, with a separate whip and a separate manifesto. Then it would be the Government party of the two which would enjoy that House of Commons privilege, not the secondary one. As seen with the LibDems, the HoC constitutional advantage doesn’t apply the same way to a Coalition, such as would be the rUK Labour Party with the legal entity Scottish Labour.

      What’s interesting is that some Labour people in Scotland seem to not only recognise this but do so publicly and perhaps welcome it, which brings me to the conclusion that they want it to happen – i.e. there are Labour people really really want Scottish Labour to indeed become Scottish Labour. In my opinion, they’re the sensible ones who understand that Scottish Labour will not survive unless it becomes its own completely independent party.

    40. Wuffing Dug says:

      Autonomous my arse.

      Corbyn is also starting to freak me out, WTF is he all about?
      A danger to national security? Thought that particular statement was ridiculous at the time but now….

      O/T in reply to Chic McGregor in ‘Why we love Twitter @12.06

      Hi Chic,

      Thanks for all the info. on energy demographics, I was being belligerent as usual as am still beeling about our current situation and goings on etc.

      Sometimes it’s hard to be objective, you just want to breenge in and vent.

      Would concur that something along those lines is happening though.

      Was interesting to read your ‘executive summary’ there – I guess Europe’s current energy / demand situation is quite diverse – you’ve inspired me to do some digging on line so I can gain further understanding.

      Do you work in the energy sector?

      I worked for a temporary power supplier for 6 years before being lured back to Oil & Gas – I really enjoyed it. Remember working on ‘peak lopping’ jobs and stuff like that – all > 1MW gen units.

      Am trying to ‘broaden the horizons’ a bit more – I’m beginning to suffer from the blinkered O & G industry perspective that I criticize a lot of other people for.

      As for nuclear, the French situation is interesting – maybe cold feet because of Fukushima? Not good to hear regulatory authorities are uncovering design issues and safety concerns with new developments. BTW used to work in pressure vessel design also, mainly low pressure but ‘lethal service’. Sod signing off on one of those things….

      The rest of the world is moving away from nuclear generation and the British are embracing it….

      From what you have said it would seem that onshore wind is being unfairly penalised to ensure development of offshore wind in the South of England to keep the NIMBY’s happy.

      As for the ludicrous connection charges, that’s another loaded die that needs to be exposed and smashed.

      I just hate seeing innovative companies (especially in Scotland) going to the wall due to Westminster’s mental agenda. Many clever wind / wave generation designs will never see the light of day – Pelamis out of the game and now a wave generation project in real trouble. 🙁 rrrr

    41. gillie says:

      Scottish Labour’s “Mibbee Aye, Mibbee Naw” strategy is a disaster.

    42. Aileen Kane says:

      This ‘party’ is becoming seriously boring. Kudos to you. I would have given up trying to explain this monmmental clusterfeck a long time ago. The Hard of Thinking Party.

    43. Murray McCallum says:

      Labour members of the UK unite!

      You have nothing to lose but submitting your own set of accounts.

    44. mike cassidy says:

      Shooting fish in a barrel.

      At this rate, the Tories are going to come second next year.

      O me miserum!

    45. george says:

      well done.

    46. yesindyref2 says:

      @Wuffing Dug
      OT – interesting posting. Energy is a bit aggrekovating,

    47. Schrödinger's cat says:

      What all of this means is….

      Slab will campaign in the holyrood and scottish council elections on a ticket of Not renewing trident. The next uk election is 5 years away, they can have a different manifesto until then

      Ian Murray can then abstain if London labour tells Ian Murray to eff off

      It is called having your cake and eating it

      Don’t expect bbc or stv to ever raise the issue again. Snp bad

    48. AlbertaScot says:

      What I noticed about the geography teacher’s speech in Perth today – other than his asshole attempt to toss Scotland in with Liverpool as some kind of deprived region plus his charisma of a carrot – was the large chunks that were skilfully crafted by Big Fat Blair or some other Labour operator.

      Which I’m sure hasn’t been lost on the SNP brainstrust.

      Kids who can’t read and hospitals you can’t get into, the debunked 14,000 MIA college places and the rest of the made-up false FMQ shite.

      That folks, in a nutshell, is the SLab manifesto for next spring’s vote.

      Nik should have no problem swatting that away like a pesky mosquito.

    49. Effijy says:

      You misunderstand Rev,

      The North British Labour Accounting Unit, can say that they are
      anti-trident, they can put up candidates supporting this, and once anyone stupid enough to vote for them, who gives them a seat on the Westmister Gray Train again, can expect to find out that just as soon as every nuclear weapon in the world is decommissioned, they will follow their lead.
      That’s what we meant you Silly Billy

      If the Westminster Tories want to vote for wasting £167 Billion
      on Trident, the North British Accounting Unit’s Red Tories can be allowed to use their 2nd favourite weapon on your behalf, abstention.

      So if you are Scottish and anti-trident, vote for the North British Accounting Unit anti-trident policy, and get Westminster Trident.

      It shouldn’t cost Scotland much more than £14,000,000,000.

      That money would only go to waste on keeping you Healthy, Educating the next generation, transport infrastructure, job creation, giving the working classes a better standard of living,

      No point in all that when you can buy a big bomb for your back yard, that the Americans can call their own.

    50. heedtracker says:

      She keeps saying its going to be “just like what federal parties do across Europe” but, is it even worth mentioning just how far away red/blue tory is from say federal Germany for example? Probably not. Sounds great though Kezbot2000.

      Who’s that website she doesn’t consider reputable again:D

    51. donald says:

      What is she saying? It’s jibberish.

    52. caz-m says:

      Scottish Labour MPs gathered outside the Conference Hall in Perth today for a team photograph, or as it’s called today,
      a “selfie”.

    53. mealer says:

      Kezia Dugdale is the answer.

    54. Schrodingers cat says:

      Upshot is…

      Slab can campaign for the next 4 years on not renewing trident

      The electoral commission won’t be called to adjudicate until 2020 ge

      Until then kez can say anything she wants

      Nothing to stop her

      No amount of frothing at the mouth will change that.

      Who else except stu will hold her to task?

      Watch the unionist trolls take an anti trident stance from now on. They will just steal our arguements…eg…only 520 jobs in Scotland etc, Jacky bailie will just change her mind or just deny she ever said 11000. who will pick her up on it? The daily record? The bbc? Dream on. The unionists broke the vow within minutes of the ref result, sadly people still believe them and vote for them, 50% in May.

      The cat punches hole in wall

    55. Clootie says:

      A “Pick and Mix” manifesto from Labour…except when you open the bag later it has all the flavours you don’t like.

      They really do think we are stupid enough to buy this transparent piece of spin. Kezia you should hang your head in shame for spouting this blatant lie.

    56. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh dear. From the Herald:

      “Labour scraps contest to find Holyrood 2016 Sturgeon challenger amid concerns over shortlist

      LABOUR’S plans to challenge Nicola Sturgeon in next year’s Scottish election are in disarray after it scrapped the contest to select its candidate over concerns about its shortlist.

      Party members across Glasgow have been told applications have re-opened for the selection of its contender for the city’s South Side seat, just days after revelations of the frontrunner’s business affairs and the withdrawal of another potential candidate from the race. “

    57. yesindyref2 says:

      Interesting though. The H seems to be getting as hard on Labour as it is on the SNP, which would be balanced if it was as hard on the Tories. LibDems don’t really count.

      Could be the Herald is switching its readership to target Conservatives in Scotland.

    58. I was at an SNP branch meeting last night and was enthused by the determination and hard work being carried out by members of the party to make sure that our SNP candidate gets elected.
      This afternoon I was speaking to a friend who is a labour supporter. He is totally disheartened and dejected by the party he has been a member of for over 30 years. He said there is no direction or cohesion from the leadership and fears the worse for the election next year.
      I am still working on his conversion to the SNP.

    59. Macart says:

      This autonomy nonsense is now beyond farce and the media have been of absolutely zero help throughout.

      Is it any wonder Ms Dugdale’s wee speech in front of the QT audience last night was greeted with rolling tumbleweed and silence?

      We have a Labour leader in Mr Corbyn, whose party solidly backs Trident renewal and who has publicly stated that he himself couldn’t put his finger on the button. Admirable as his personal stance may be, Labour would therefore support £167bn worth of expenditure on a weapon system the Scottish electorate have quite clearly rejected at the ballot already. The capper of course being that a Labour party already considered weak and unelectable by the UK public, now have presented themselves as weaker and more riven with division than at any time in recent history.

      Even if Labour replaced Mr Corbyn in the name of stability and by replaced I mean undermine, stab in the back and remove, there is little doubt how this would play to the UKs electorate at large and those ever precious marginals in particular. They would still have a mountain to climb in rebuilding electoral confidence with the public.

      The conservatives would literally have to start axe murdering their own constituents to become unelectable themselves. I think we’re fairly clear on where this is now headed come 2020.

      So, can Scotland stand another decade of Conservative ideology and austerity economics?

    60. bookie from hell says:

      You join the Labour Party knowing its Unionist

      The Scottish bit is for the non member Public

      What’s the point of voting discussing reserved matters?(time/effort with division exposed)

      It’s not possible to out Scottish the SNP on reserved matters(fact)

      They need to be honest and just call themselves the Labour Party in Scotland(would get more respect)

    61. BigDavid says:

      But Jez? Didn’t labour tell us we would be Better Together? Why hasn’t all this poverty disappeared?

    62. K1 says:

      Could be the Herald is switching its readership to target Conservatives in Scotland.

      Makes sense, certainly won’t be to target SNP in Scotland.

    63. Paula Rose says:

      All this autuonomy would make whipping very difficult.

    64. No doubt this accounting unit is registered offshore because their collective brains are.

    65. Wuffing Dug says:

      yesindyref2 @6.30

      It sure is 😉

    66. dakk says:

      Just watched the Brian Taylor interview with Kezia.

      She is a fly,fake of a woman-the forced laughter to try deflect attention from answering the questions.

      It really saddens me that we have such Scots working so hard to con the people of Scotland out of proper democratic representation.Unfortunately they are legion.

      Slowly but surely however,they are being exposed and shamed for what they are.Due largely to the very Reverend Stuart Campbell and Wings over Scotland, which continues to be increasingly influential in Scotland’s future despite the attempted smears by Scotland’s enemies.

    67. yesindyref2 says:

      Whipping? Autonomy? Ah, I’ve got it, they’re confusing autonomy with auto-erotic.

    68. Bawheid Bragg says:

      OT slightly…does anyone know who the Angry Dude was in the Question Time audience?

    69. mogabee says:

      But what does John McTernan think?


    70. sinky says:

      KI says at 7.14

      I may be wrong but traditionally the Herald was a protestant Tory supporting newspaper and the Scotsman Liberal pro devolution paper.

      How times have changed

    71. yesindyref2 says:

      OT – sport
      Try of the tournament? Wow, and there’s a couple missing as well.
      Player of the tournament – obviously – Greig Laidlaw, not just as player but captain.

    72. john king says:

      Mealer says
      “Kezia Dugdale is the answer.”

      What the hell was the question?
      Who is THE most pointless person in Scotland?

    73. Murray McCallum says:

      “They may take our lives, but they’ll never take our interpretation of SSAP 21 Accounting for leases and hire purchase contracts”.

      It’s difficult to know where this autonomy will end.

    74. heedtracker says:

      And so it begins, the Vow Fraud 2.

      BBC soft soap analysis by Brian Taylor, BBC Scotland political editor

      “The audience seemed unconcerned at the economic dog that declined to bark in Mr Corbyn’s speech.

      They loved his insistence that the Scottish party will have relative autonomy over their own affairs, while remaining in the wider Labour family. To be clear, his speech went down very well in the hall” and then reams of BBC Vote SLabour waffle.

      Relative autonomy, run your own affairs, stay in the safe secure UK family. Well it did seem to dupe enough voters 18 Sep 2014, so why not try in on again, they;ve nothing left to lose.

      Expected more of JC though, really thought he’d have some semblance of integrity and decency.

    75. Iain says:

      What will Kezia do for a job after May. Does anyone need Jim Murphy on helium to boost their business?

    76. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Bawheid Bragg 7.28 The guy in the tartan shirt wie the scowl oan his puss ,ah thought it wiz Dr Dr Scott.

    77. galamcennalath says:

      This MPs abstaining business really annoys me. What does that say to their constituencies? “I don’t give a f**k about that issue? What to they stand on at elections! Do they say, “I am for xyz, I am against abd, and I couldn’t care less about klm?

      I have never seen a manifesto which lets voters know what subject that party couldn’t give a toss about!

      WM should work say Mon-Wed and part Thurs and Firday (travelling allowed for) they should be in their constituencies meeting voters … Or something like that. As with the rest of us, a sense from work should need a ‘sick note’. Not turning up for votes on a whim shouldn’t be tolerated.

      They should turn up for every vote, and they should say yes or no.

      OK perhaps MPs for devolved nations should avoid genuine English matters, but that’s a trivial matter in the wider picture.

      Abstaining shouldn’t be an option.

      Rant over 🙂

    78. woosie says:

      I heard Murray on GMS this morning. The amount of times he said “incredibly” was – incredible! Does he assume that by saying “incredibly” we won’t doubt his answer? I hope not, because he couldn’t give the truthful answer to the slab/uklab conflict question; that there is no answer!

      O/T; got my response from my complaint to the ebc about Oor Andra’s using the wrong sums live on telly. They’ve consulted AN, and it turns out he was right all along!

    79. Crisiscult says:

      Since we now know kezia reads wings can we ask her if she thinks her own brain and mouth are credible sources? I’d really like to know if her brain agrees with her mouth actually.

    80. jimbo says:

      It looks and sounds like a damage limitation exercise by the BBC on behalf of London Labour’s Scottish branch office.

    81. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Iain ( what job should kezia do after Mays election )
      open ah Chip shoppee The Fryed Scotswoman.

    82. Jim Mitchell says:

      I think there may be even more fun to come from this statement of intent in the future.

    83. Lollysmum says:

      @ Wuffing Dug

      Think you’ll find that Scotgov saved Pelamis last year.Might go by a different name now though. Couldn’t afford to save all the jobs but saved some, the research & the technology for Scotland. That’s what I call a forward thinking & progressive government.

    84. David McDowell says:

      Wings reported last week’s Sunday Times quoting an “insider” at a meeting of Labour’s Westminster parliamentary party: “this divisive plan would make Labour look ridiculous by having different policies depending on where you are in the country.”

      Here we are on Friday, and Jez and Kez are trying to sell the ridiculous idea of Labour having different policies depending on where you are in the country.

      It’s getting hard to keep track of the bull.

      We’ve often seen two-faced Labour telling a different story to voters on both sides of the border.

      But do they really believe the Scottish public will accept it as official Labour party policy?

    85. CameronB Brodie says:

      So this is how British Labour are trying to sell English imperialism to Scotland in the 21st century? Ha, ha ha,ha ha, ha. Ha, ha ha …..

      Imperialism can be defined as a system of power, political economic ascendancy and cultural subordination, envisioned from the centre of expanding nation-states and differentially operationalized in colonized spaces throughout the world. Definitions are always fraught with difficulties, of course, and it is important to recognize the complexities of the terms empire, imperial and imperialism, which have been shown to have connoted different historical cultural meanings and political realities through time (Loomba, 1998).

      Imperialism is defined as “an unequal human and territorial relationship, usually in the form of an empire, based on ideas of superiority and practices of dominance, and involving the extension of authority and control of one state or people over another.”[2] Imperialism is a process and ideology that does not only focus on political dominance, but rather, conquest over expansion. Imperialism is particularly focused on the control that one group, often a state power, has on another group of people.[5] There are “formal” or “informal” imperialism. “Formal imperialism” is, “the physical control or full-fledged colonial rule”.[5] “Informal control” is less direct, however; it is still a powerful form of dominance.[5]

    86. Jim Mitchell says:

      heedtracker: I have said this before, I do hope Kez & Co take their lead from Jeremy and start calling themselves ” The Relatively Independent Party”, it will look great on their campaign literature, but I wonder what they would use as a symbol?

    87. Free Scotland says:

      The more I listen to Kezia Dugdale, the more I am convinced that her words are the result of the random movement of atoms.

    88. Angra Mainyu says:

      We are all victims of Unionist fracking. It’s been going on for years, decades even. They pump hot air and toxic gas into our country and, through a process of politico-economc pressurisation, they extract our oil and other resources.

      Kezia hopes to convince us that she’s not fracking us on behalf of the Union itself but is doing so autonomously of her own accord.

      Do they have no idea how insulting this bitch is to the Scottish electorate? Last week she was talking of her 3 immediate goals (to bring clarity to what they stand for, to win trust, and to show us they are independent of London HQ). She broke all three of those pledges in one sentence lastnight.

      Notice to SLAB: We see through your lies and you’ll never be trusted again.


      I’m so looking forward to seeing Dugdale resign, roll on May (if she lasts that long)

    89. skozra says:

      If ‘Scottish’ Labour say they’ll oppose Trident renewal and UK Labour are for renewing Trident, then Murray will abstain but say he voted against renewal. That’s what’ll be all over the ‘news’papers up here i’d guess.

      Someone mentioned Jim Murphy above, i’d forgotten all about him but now I remember just how much he destroyed my love of Irn Bru 🙁

    90. Free Scotland says:

      @Jim Mitchell at 8:33 pm

      How about a ball-and-chain?

    91. ArtyHetty says:

      Kez, you had me lost a few seconds in, no idea what you ae saying really. As for ‘reputable’, WoS has zillions more integrity than any establishment rag or programme which pays you a few quid to waffle on. Yawn.

      Christ, why are these people like her doing down their own country and people day in day out?
      I mean ffs trident, why is her beloved labour party not absolutely disgusted that this is even being considered an acceptable way to spend the peoples money?

      The obvious immorality of their abstinence on the matter will resonate for generations, if the kids and grandkids get a chance to live their lives that is.

      She disgusts me with her pretences.

    92. “Let’s clear something up”.

      There was a vote on Trident in January 2015. 35 MPs voted to end the nuke nonsense, at a time when there were just 6 SNP MPs — so do the maths, and look at the list of those who voted for sanity. The proposer was Angus Robertson, who started:
      “It is a pleasure to move the motion, which stands in my name and those of my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Scottish National party, Plaid Cymru—the party of Wales—and the Green party. I am also pleased that the motion is supported by other Members, such as the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), who has a long-standing, principled position on this issue.”

      After that, the SNP contribution came from Aonghas Brianan MacNèill, and amounted to: that an independent Scotland, with an SNP government, would join a nuke-toting NATO, and would “fulfil our full NATO obligations as a non-nuclear member of NATO. About 90% of its members have no difficulty with that”. [My emphasis]

      It occurs to me that there’s been a re-writing of SNP policy (or it it just the interpretation of SNiPpers here present?) since then. And certainly a re-appraisal of Jeremy Corbyn since he became Labour leader — and not to his advantage.

      So what changed?

    93. DerekM says:

      How many times are they going to try and con people into thinking they are not controlled by the PLP.

      Eh Kez i was in Labour before you were born lassie and i can tell you at no time has the Scottish branch ever been autonomous,the PLP and the unions decide not you,you are not even in control of the Scottish branch,you need to remember lassie that most of us are EX Labour and we have forgotten more about Labour than you have ever learned.

      And i will vote SNP/SNP to get rid of a party i was once a member before it was hi-jacked by a bunch of Tories and sold out its principles for a part of the establishment.

      Your party is a disgrace and i am ashamed to have ever been a part of it.

    94. John Moss says:

      I saw her hairdo. I knew she was mad.

      I listened to her talk. I definetly know she’s mad.

      More women in politics and in the boardroom..?


    95. finnmacollie says:

      Being “more” autonomous is a bit like being “more” pregnant.

      You either ARE or you ARE NOT.

    96. Free Scotland says:

      Voting Labour and admitting it is the rough equivalent of having “Total Duff-Heid” tattooed on your forehead.

    97. Chic McGregor says:

      @Wuffing Dug

      I’m retired. My main career was as a device physicist in the semiconductor industry starting in the 70’s when large scale integration was just in its infancy.

      However I do try to keep abreast of all aspects of physics with a particular interest in energy production and of course, especially as in how it relates to Scotland.

    98. heedtracker says:

      it will look great on their campaign literature, but I wonder what they would use as a symbol?

      Switch this girl’s countdown with Kez, coz she’s so into indy for SLab and SLab nukes too. Parts of SLabour Scotland look devastated anyway, except future Lord Murray of Morningside’s patch say.

      or maybe a shaky old guy’s finger on a big red button.

    99. Someone’s got a flatulence problem.

    100. caz-m says:

      Jeremy knows that nobody in Engerland will be watching the annual Scottish branch meeting, so he can say what he likes up here.

      His grand plan must be for Scottish Labour to win in Scotland on an anti Trident ticket, then take that forward to their next London Labour annual conference and get it passed by the English mob.

      Fantasy politics or what?

    101. ArtyHetty says:


      John, I do hope that you are just joking. This site does not do sexist crap.

    102. John Moss @ 8:49 pm:

      Why not go for the full-octane sexist rant? The kind of thing that @jessphillips has been getting.

      You know you want to. You know you need to. And it’s not too far off what is usually acceptable in these parts.

    103. Iain says:

      Totally agree !

    104. AlbertaScot says:

      Just to set the record straight, but is this the first time Kez has turned up at a political shindig wearing a – wait for it – skirt?

      She’s usually kitted out in that trousers and jacket rig like she’s working the parts desk down at the Ford dealership.

      I sense a make-over. Will the part-down-the-middle hair cut be the next to bite the dust?

      They really are going all out.

    105. Platinum says:

      Why is there no similar hoo-ha going on in the Scottish Lib Dems? They’ve also got a massive hole to drag themselves out of, but they’re not currently trying to assert their autonomy, to federalise their party – even though they supposedly support federalism for the UK. Labour appear to be wanting to federalise the party but not the UK. None of it makes any sense whatsoever. All I know is that they can’t both be right.

    106. donald says:

      O/T LiverpoolEcho carrying story of Labour MP charged with assault on Yesser
      Might be worth a wee share as the media haven’t reported it at all here. If an SNP MP was up on an assault charge against a No campaigner we all know it would lead every news programme for a month. Clear example of very biased unionist media manipulation.

    107. ArtyHetty says:

      Re; Chic McGregor@8.56

      Interesting, do you know about, I have come across a few interesting sites and blogs re oil and gas, as I am keen on learning about Scotland’s fascinating geology for my art work. When I remember which and where I bookmarked will let you know.

    108. caz-m says:

      London Labour leader DOESN’T want Trident, but the London Party members do.

      Scottish Labour leader DOES want Trident, but Scottish Party members don’t.

      The thought of the Tories becoming the leading opposition Party in Scotland is not so far fetched.

    109. AuldGranny says:

      Kezia keeps insisting that “this is what happens in more federalised European countries”.

      However, federalised EU countries are obviously subject to different rules than those imposed by the Electoral Commission in the UK.

      She just keeps making it up as she goes along. Very silly lassie if she thinks that the population of Scotland are going to let Labour off the hook on this one.

    110. HandandShrimp says:

      None of it makes any sense whatsoever.


      I am not convinced it makes any sense to most Labour MPs. The position seems incoherent to me.

      Autonomy on policy but they will have to toe the national manifesto line at a general election? How does that work? How can it work?

    111. Thomas Valentine says:

      So what exactly are the repercussions if they do just go ahead campaigning for policies in Scotland that might win them a few seats, then when they arrived in London they flush their Scottish manifestos down the toilet?

      What stops them?

    112. sinky says:

      Donald @ 9.18
      Trial postponed again I suspect Establishment closing ranks again as in Chilcott enquiry.

    113. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      Rev Stu,

      Malcolm Redfellow is a really offensive and warped person.

      Time to block him please.

    114. David McDowell says:

      Thomas Valentine at 9.36pm

      I think the “repercussions” would be the total extinction of British Labour in Scotland within five years, followed by a landslide vote for Scottish independence at a second referendum, so here’s hoping British Labour push ahead with this ridiculous “tell what they want to hear” policy!

    115. Wuffing Dug says:

      Hi Chic and Lollysmum

      Chic, must have been something else to witness the advances in semiconductor design and processing power from within the industry.

      Lollysmum, Thanks – will see what I can find out about Pelamis. Job losses not good. Sounds as if they can carry on at least. I think it’s a tidal power company that’s in trouble now.

      The SG can’t keep bailing them out though.

      I hope these smaller companies have safeguards to protect their intellectual property from larger predatory companies.

      We need to keep the IP here. If a particular design can be proven it could be sold or licensed for manufacture all over the world.

      But we need the revenue stream to flow back here.

    116. Bob Mack says:

      @Malcolm Redfellow.
      Let us try it slowly then.

      1.We do not want nuclear weapons
      2 We probably do not have the manpower to forcibly dissarm NATO by ourselves.

      We do believe in protecting our country without killing all mankind to achieve it.

      What you suggest is akin to saying do not talk to policemen or soldiers because they carry guns ad you do not.

    117. Effijy says:

      Some scary Halloween outfits coming around the neighbourhood tonight.

      I jumped out of my skin when a wee girls with a Max Wall Hair do
      wearing a Kez “First Minister” Badge came to my door!

      I’ve put the lights out and I’m sitting behind the sofa.

      I’ll have nightmares tonight.
      Can you imagine Dipity in Holyrood and Boris in Westminster?
      Give me a mad chainsaw murderer in the bedroom any day!

    118. Grouse Beater says:

      Bedfellow: “Why not go for the full-octane sexist rant?”

      That’s rich coming from a fat-heated misogynist prat like you who talks of ‘tit-sucking’ instead of teat-sucking.

    119. Wuffing Dug says:

      @ArtyHetty @9.23

      I don’t think that sites been updated for a while.

      Would urge caution there, don’t want to be a wet blanket but Scotland’s oil industry needs some serious investment to maintain it’s future viability in the global market.

      As for geology – syncline, anticline, erm erm.
      I do know about platforms, rigs, vessels and subsea structures though….

    120. Graeme Doig says:

      Corbyn flies up from London to reinforce how autonomous Slab are. Love it. I’m convinced.

    121. Grouse Beater says:

      Heedtracker: Scotland can never be like Norway, too small Norway

      Heard similar on Radio 4. We can’t ever emulate Norway because it’s too small, small population (almost same as Scotland) and is a country rich in resources and oil. Each person is technically a millionaire many times over. The reason we can’t be like Norway. Apparently £5 for a pint. So it’s all down to the price of booze.

    122. Wuffing Dug says:

      Having to fall back on the phone tonight, BT broadband bag of shite.

      Just as well the 4g’s good here.

      Anybody else in Aberdeen having problems?

    123. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Malcolm Redfellow.

      I don’t really, usually, address commenters whom I could perceive as ‘trolls’ but, for this once, I will offer a comment.

      I wondered WHY you were here, on ‘Wings Over Scotland’, a web site whose raison d’etre is ‘a (mainly) Scottish political media digest and monitor, which also offers its own commentary.’. Then I had a look at your blogs – on blogspot and wordpress.

      I see you’re lucky if you get more than half a dozen comments to your web input.

      Is that why you’re here? A London based retiree, with a lack of support for your web input, looking for recognition, and a bit of company?

      Have you tried ‘Digital Spy’?

    124. Tam Jardine says:

      Brian really put Kezia through the ringer, eh! He may as well have been holding her hand. Shades of Sarah Smith, nodding in agreement, guiding her slab comrades gently through.

      I wonder what all the journos will do when slab get hollowed out in May coming in a dismal third? Brian may be still holding the slab hand but its going limp.

      Its all gone a bit ‘weekend at Bernies’ for the corpsemedia in Scotland.

      Nicola must be laughing her heed off.

      Stu and the cybernats are doing so much of the running now- is it time for the SNP to get into the game and start landing some series blows? Or do they just sit back and watch the opposition destroy itself?

    125. Paul Beck says:

      “We are a separate accounting unit!” … reminds me of the spine-tingling revolutionary slogan behind which the Association of University Teachers took to the streets some years ago: “RECTIFY THE ANOMALY!”

    126. Grouse Beater says:

      “Shades of Sarah Smith”

      Don’t see much of her these days. Has she been quietly eased out of presenting the most coveted political show in terrestrial broadcasting, or has she asked to be repatriated to BBC England?

    127. Lou Nisbet says:

      @Inbhir Anainn She must be the most inept leader of any political party ever. She mentions Wings on national television – Like giving a free advert on TV and then goes on further to give a character reference ‘not the most reputable web site’.

      This from Kezia is very high praise indeed the stupid eejit that she is.

    128. Lesley-Anne says:

      That website is not a particularly reputable website says oor wee Kez.

    129. Simon Curran says:

      It really is bizarre. Surely all this muddled announcement will mean a lack of confidence in Labour, not just in Scotland but in England as well. How could English voters support a multilateralist position on nuclear weapons knowing that it might not pass if Scots Labour MPs abstained. Absolutely bonkers.

    130. Stoker says:

      caz-m wrote:
      “Scottish Labour MPs gathered outside the Conference Hall in Perth today for a team photograph, or as it’s called today, a “selfie”.”

      Cheers, caz-m, after a very long and tiring day i needed that.
      “a selfie” – LLF – hilarious!

    131. Mojo says:

      If Kezia is the answer – its the wrong question…

    132. Chic McGregor says:

      @Wuffing Dug

      “Chic, must have been something else to witness the advances in semiconductor design and processing power from within the industry.”

      Yes indeed. I feel very privileged and proud to have been part of that industry. It was what I wanted to do and I counted myself very fortunate to get into it.

      I think most of us in the industry at that time understood the vision of what the industry could become whilst realising that generally the rest of the world as yet did not, which was a heady and exciting mix.

      When I started, we still referred to the manufacturing area as ‘the lab’ rather than the later ‘the fab’.

      To give an illustration at that time the high temperature processes (Jargon:diffusion) consisted of a large quartz tube, a bit like a giant test tube around which there were heating coils. The silicon wafers/slices were pushed into them and a ‘recipe’ of gases were introduced at one end and extracted at the other to achieve the desired effect.

      That might have been to grow an oxide on the silicon or to diffuse a dopant atom into the silicon or to anneal or alloy depending on the stage of the process.

      We would construct what we called ‘jungles’ out of a mixture of ground glass jointed pipework, beaker bubblers and solenoid valves etc. to do this, just like in a chem lab or Hammer horror movie.

      The timing sequence for switching gas flows etc, was controlled by a bank of electro mechanical clocks which switched the solenoid valves at the appropriate time.

      Temperature control was done by the engineer measuring the temperature along the tube with a thermocouple and adjusting the power to the heating coils.

      Photolithography at that time was the simplest possible. The wafers/slices were spun with a film of photoresist and then they were aligned and brought into physical contact with pre-prepared masks through which UV lamps exposed the resist. The wafers then were washed in developer chemical which removed the resist from some areas. Oxide (later nitride) was then etched off with acids so that a subsequent diffusion or implant process could take place. Photolithography was also used to define and etch the conducting tracks in deposited Aluminium film (and later in polysilicon).

      ‘Implant’ was the process of using a linear particle accelerator to dose the wafers with a dopant. It had the advantages of delivering a precise dose and burying it to a desired depth.
      The first one I worked on used a mechanical stack of disks with cams at appropriate points to operate a bank of microswitches, a bit like a musical box, that is what controlled the timing sequence for the operation.

      Several ‘layers’ were processed alternating between lithography and diffusion/implant/deposition.

      Metal deposition was by evaporation in these days. Basically the wafers were put in a large metal bell jar which was evacuated with vacuum pumps, An electron beam generated by an electron gun similar to that in an old crt TV was directed, by magnets onto an Aluminium/copper mix in a crucible. The resultant Al/Cu vapour was then deposited on to the wafers. Because the beam was apt to ‘wander’ over time, a porthole existed in the bell jar to allow the operator to tweak the magnet controls and keep it playing on the melt.

      Later we had stainless steel ‘jungles’ which no longer looked much like a jungle but which retained the name, we had projection aligners for lithography which no longer contacted the wafers we had plasma generate deposition where Aluminium was deposited from a disk of Aluminium on to one wafer at a time we had plasma etching rather than acids and we had more powerful microcomputer controlled implanters.

      In fact, the sunbsequent ubiquity of computer control in the semiconductor industry is a pretty clear and modern example of the old chicken and egg conundrum.

      Sorry to wax on so but I found this post quite cathartic.

    133. K1 says:

      Jeez Chic, could you put the accounting unit into a vacuum so’s to cause ‘Labour deposition’ thus causing them to evaporate? The resultant vapours would have to be released through some sort of ‘funnelling’ device ensuring the toxic elements are delivered into the outer solar atmosphere, to ensure none of the population is infected.

      I understand the ‘beam’ might wander but I’m quite sure we could find some volunteers who would be more than happy to ‘tweak’ the magnet controls to ensure the ‘melt…down’ wis successful.

      I’m partial to a bit of porthole gazing masel, happy to assist. 🙂

    134. Jamie says:

      I love that deadpan answer from Brian Taylor there:

      KD: “I think some of those people have been reading Wings Over Scotland.”

      BT: “Quite probably.”

    135. Petra says:

      ”Dugdale’s answer – clearly honed somewhat since a trainwreck of an interview with STV’s Rona Dougall last night – was that in the event of such a policy conflict, Labour would have a procedure by which the two entities would arrive at a common position, and that would become the one in the manifesto.”

      Forget about trainwreck, Kezia was basically slaughtered from all sides at Question Time this week by Dimbleby, the audience and all panel members (especially brilliant Brown SNP) other than Bragg.

      She is a lousy actress and consummate liar and they all know it. As crafty and as big a liar than Baillie? Well I don’t know. Seems like Baillie is far smarter than her and that is even more worrying for Labour in Scotland. Next Leader? Naw she wants to earn her money for doing nothing at all other than a lying her yap off now and again. Kezia has been set up by people like Murphy and Baillie (and the Daily Record). Just ask your so-called pal Johann, Kezia.

      Am I just daft or bl**dy well naive? Let’s say that Westminster wants to bomb Syria (is doing so already behind our backs) and go to war … send our ground troops in there. Labour supporters in Scotland say no. Kezia says no. Murray says no. The Labour Party at Westminster says yes as they DID in relation to the Iraq war. Corbyn says no but is forced to change his view if not his Cabinet will walk out on him / or is over-rided by his Cabinet and Party votes anyway.

      What happens next?

      Oh right Kezia and Murray are going to turn it all around and influence Westminster not to send Scots to War (the backbone of UK forces forever in the past and currently – with no public acknowledgement of that – youtube videos to that effect now removed). Scottish troops wont go to War (maybe even another illegal War) because Kezia Dugdale says so.

      I’m totally sick and tired of wee Blairite Dugdale trying to dupe the Scots and Keir Hardy Corbyn known liar now …. on public record (totally confused and usurped by his own cabinet) also. Not that Corbyn can’t see right through her (Blairite) but has to use her now to get the Scots off his back.

      Additionally Labour (and Corbyn) have now realised how much the Scottish vote meant to the Labour Party over the last hundred years or so. Brown knew full well and that’s why he went to an all time low by threatening transplant patients and the elderly etc etc.

      Get real Labour supporters in Scotland this ‘autonomous’ story is just a sham. Do you really think that any Labour Politician in Scotland such as Dozy Dugdale has any real say at all UK wide? Not in Scotland right now and never ever even if the tables turned and she was in a position of real power in Scotland. England with over 10 times the number of politicians will always have the final say. And it’s clear that the vast majority of Labour politicians like Kezia are Blairites who are not in atune with the Scots at all.

      The Scots have been ruled by the Tories for decades now. A party that we detest and didn’t ever vote for over the last 50 years or so. Now and again Labour Politicians have held sway in the Country. Ask yourself what did they do for us Scots? Wilson hid the McCrone Report that outlined that Scotland could have been the richest country in the World (as rich as Switzerland) with no debt and lending to England. By God no wonder Labour and the Tories (Thatcher) hid that document from us.

      Donald Dewar made an agreement in 1999, the night before our Scottish Parliament was (re) founded, with Blair to hand over 6000 sq mls of Scottish Seas and 7 of our oil fields.

      Check out the history of all First Ministers of Scotland over time! Dismal to say the least.

      Tony Blair became Prime Minister and is beyond talking about. This one wee Scotsman (sad to say Scot) has contributed to the decimation of this planet and untold misery.

      Gordon Brown brought the county to it’s financial knees. Stole from pensioners pension pots and then had the brass neck to frighten Scottish pensioners with his ‘pension’ lies.

      Anyone thinking of voting for them? Open your eyes and see the light FGS.

    136. Robert Peffers says:

      @Rev. Stuart Campbell says: 30 October, 2015 at 5:25 pm:

      “Well, no, because Dugdale’s told us how it’d going to be dealt with – the idea of “autonomy” on reserved issues is a charade.”

      Yes, Rev Stu, I have long referred to, “Her Majesty’s Parliament of Her United Kingdom”, as the de facto parliament of England as the numbers of MPs is 533 English, 59 Scots, 40 Welsh and 18 N. Irish. That works out as 533 English members and a total of 117 other MPs. A clear English majority of 416 over all other UK countries. No matter what any other UK country wants, if the English do not want it, the others cannot have it.

      So what labour is now claiming as autonomy is, on at least two levels, utter lies. First of all you cannot have more or less autonomy. Like death, where you are either dead or you are alive, you can either be autonomous or subservient. There are no degrees of autonomy. You either are or you ain’t.

      So without doubt the Scottish accounting unit of the UK Labour Party are in fact still the de facto Labour Party of England.

      They seem bent upon fooling no one but themselves – self delusion has long been the stock in trade of Scottish Labour.

    137. R-type Grunt says:

      Kezia Dugdale is a self-serving lying shitebag!

    138. Brian Doonthetoon at 10:24 pm

      Since you employ the first-person singular at least seven times in that post, and are ad-hom throughout, I’ll respond in like manner.

      1. If the info says I’m London-based, it’s some years out of date. Try reading the text a bit closer.

      2. To correct outrageous errors of fact (e.g. citing Angus Robertson’s declaration of the SNP line as recently as January 2015, and comparing it with mis-interpretations here) is not “trolling”.

      3. This site’s persistent and explicit sexism is unacceptable. Indeed I think my first post here was a shock-reaction to reading that Kezia Dugdale would be “killed”. Even as a metaphor, that is beyond the norms of political language. It is even worse than that tolerated by the likes of Paul Staines (by name and nature), where I also post for ritual flaying by the ignorant.

      4. To be explicitly personal, I signed up for James Connolly’s socialist republic around the time I left school, and haven’t wavered much since. I joined the original CND march in Edinburgh en route to Dunoon, and so was canoeing around the Holy Loch/An Loch Sianta and USS Proteus in the summer of 1961 (with a night in the cells of Gourock nick for my efforts). I had the pleasure and honour to know and be gently tutored by the last of the Red Clydesiders, Manny Shinwell (then in his 80s and 90s). I gently suggest that such longevity gives me some small yapping whelp in this fight.

      5. I see I disturb the even tenor of your curious ways here, enough for a demand that I be banned. Now that really would sum up the SNiPper attitude to free speech. “SNiPper” because the SNP proper has decently disavowed you and all your works.

      A! Fredome is a noble thing!
      Fredome mays man to haiff liking;
      Freedom all solace to man giffis:
      He levys at es that rely levys!
      A noble hart may haiff nane es,
      Na ellis niche that may him ples,
      Gaff fredome failyhe; for fre liking
      Is yharnyt our all other thing.
      [John Barbour, c.1320-1395]

    139. Fred says:

      Would that be Lord Shinwell, dyke jumper of the first rank!

    140. Anagach says:

      R-type Grunt says:

      Kezia Dugdale is a self-serving lying sh*****!

      Very possibly, but it serves not the comments to just vent the anger.

    141. “Fred says:
      31 October, 2015 at 11:37 am
      Would that be Lord Shinwell, dyke jumper of the first rank!”

      Perhaps just a wee bit more than that. But definitely a Scot of the first rank.

      Organiser of clothing workers in Glasgow, then of the seamen (rising to be national organiser). So prominent in the Glasgow 40 hours movement that he was gaoled for five months — is it the current fashion, among these reconstructed SNiPpers, to deplore direct action, as George Square? ILP MP for Linlithgow in 1922 and 1929. Supporter of the Spanish Popular Front, to the extent that he slapped the face of an insulting, anti-semitic, xenophobic English Tory on the floor of the Commons. Nationalised the coal-mines (and was certainly not responsible for the 1947 fuel crisis — the former coal-owners and war-time rail had run both industries into decrepitude).

      And victor over Ramsay MacDonald, a far more reprehensible “dyke jumper” (or is that another WOS sexist imputation?) at Seaham in 1924.

    142. Brian Doonthetoon says:


      “One particular vile toad is the “Rev. Stuart Campbell“: reverend simply because he is self-ordained (it’s one of those American mail-order jobs). Campbell’s Scottish connection is a quarter-century past: his present is in that Caledonian idyll more usually recognised as Bath, Avon, England.

      Anyone who hasn’t encountered his festering swamp, Wings Over Scotland, is well-advised to stay away: it’s declared off-limits by the politburo of the SNP. Think Guido Fawkes without its occasional sources, or even the most basic wit. The Wings-over-Scotland window-licking commenters exceed any bounds set by Fawkes or the Daily Mail.”

      (I added a paragraph break to the quote, to avoid the hammers.)

      Could the above quote be regarded as an even-handed, impersonal critique of this web site? Why have you entered this “festering swamp”, rather than following your own advice to stay away?

    143. Ah! “Brian Doonthetoon” at 12:28pm. Any relation to “Andrew McLean, October 30, 2015 at 4:25 pm”, who made a similar point elsewhere? Or do I now have two stalkers?

      Anyhoo, I see the stat-porn already benefits thereby.

      Do the basics about the proprietor of this establishment not ring true? If so, you have bigger WWW issues to address than me and mine.

      Is WOS now A-OK with the SNP? If so, since when? Last I heard, WOS were personae planissime non gratae. Or is that just for public consumption?

      Do you wish to exonerate WOS commenters from the comparisons with those two other cess-pits of prejudice? If so, show where WOS comments rise above that retardation, and are not too often abusive, sexist and negative — as in “Kezia Dugdale is a self-serving lying shitebag!”, above.

      I note your point about paragraphing. I will take it up with my models, including George Buchanan, Thomas Carlyle, David Hume, George Mackay Brown et al. (you may have heard of them).

      I pay attention to WOS on the basis of Noam Chomsky’s injunction:
      If we insist on creating more swamps, there will be more mosquitoes, with awesome capacity for destruction.

      If we devote our resources to draining the swamps, addressing the roots of the “campaigns of hatred”, we can not only reduce the threats we face but also live up to ideals that we profess and that are not beyond reach if we choose to take them seriously.

    144. K1 says:

      Oh Brian, why, why indulge it? Snearing condescending snobbery of the highest rank permeates its every utterance.

      It thinks its a saviour, it thinks it knows by virtue of study, it feels proud to name others that by association give it credence and insight.

      Its ego is fat with superiority and its fancy word dance does not disguise its sole intent; to look down on others its decided are less than it.

      Dinnae encourage it.

    145. Hamish100 says:

      Red fellow,

      I think you have mistaken a swamp with a cess-pit which is of your own making. It must be hard these days being in a minority. Please swim along!

    146. Bawheid Bragg says:

      ronnie anderson says:
      @ Bawheid Bragg 7.28 The guy in the tartan shirt wie the scowl oan his puss ,ah thought it wiz Dr Dr Scott.

      Thanks Ronnie,wondered if it was himself.

    147. gus1940 says:

      A regular member of the band of morons who write to and comment on that alleged newspaper calling itself The Scotsman goes under the name Martin Redfern.

      I wonder if that recently appeared troll calling himself Malcolm Redfellow is in any way connected to the above named moron.

    148. mac says:

      Good god this can be encapsulated in a simple statement…”She is talking nonsense”…honestly no matter how many ways you twist the conversation Labour is a UK party that must conform to the UK Whip,the woman is a complete gift for for the SNP!!!

    Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.

    ↑ Top