But not yet, Lord
The SNP have been all over the place since Wednesday’s judgement of the Supreme Court. Astonishingly, the party hadn’t prepared an agreed line in the event of the Court ruling against it, with the result that various party figures had popped up with all sorts of different versions of what a supposed plebiscite election would mean.
The closest things to an “official” position were when the SNP’s Policy Development Convener Toni Giugliano, and former Glasgow city councillor and Nicola Sturgeon’s mouthpiece Mhairi Hunter (who’d dismissed the whole idea of a plebiscite election as “impossible” earlier this year), both suggested that a victory in a plebiscite general election would simply amount to another mandate to demand a Section 30 order.
The party’s Depute Leader Keith Brown, on the other hand, had claimed that winning such an election would produce independence by itself. But lest any Yes supporters get over-excited, on TV this afternoon Brown declared that the matter would have to wait at least a couple of years.
Why? Because apparently the SNP can’t be bothered with the paperwork.
Brown told the BBC’s Sunday Show that conducting an immediate Holyrood election as a plebiscite – something which is both entirely legal and easily achieved – wasn’t going to happen because “Then you’d go through all sorts of other processes, by electing another First Minister. We’re in the middle of the cost-of-living crisis”.
But what sort of pathetic excuse is that? It’s ONE process – the FM resigns, pro-indy MSPs block any replacement and a general election is thereby triggered. It takes a maximum of 28 days. It could be done by Christmas. And we seem to remember somebody or other saying quite recently that the cost of living crisis was a reason to get a move on with independence, not to procrastinate for two years while inflation spirals and people struggle to pay their bills.
(Also, since Holyrood controls almost no economic levers, using the cost of living crisis as an excuse not to disrupt it is a complete red herring anyway. And there’ll always be SOME kind of crisis – Brexit, COVID, Ukraine, the economy – to use as an excuse.)
Brown also claimed that the SNP couldn’t even get together to TALK about its next steps for several months because “we’ve already said the principles which will apply, but there are more details to be worked out”.
More details? The SNP has had more than SIX YEARS since the Brexit vote to work out all the details of what it would do if a Section 30 order was refused and the Supreme Court backed the UK government’s interpretation of the Scotland Act.
It’s had FOUR MONTHS since the decision was referred to the court in early July in which to prepare for a discussion about its ruling, and now it’s telling us it needs several months more just to arrange a meeting.
What’s more, even though the meeting is yet to be scheduled it appears to have been predetermined that whatever the outcome of it might be, it WON’T be to do the thing that represents by far the best chance of success.
The SNP, in short, is running away in terror. Anyone who’s still swallowing the party’s public pronouncements at this point probably needs a full-time carer, but at the very least medical professionals ought to be monitoring them for symptoms of carotenemia.
THE LAW SOCIETY OF SCOTLAND.
THE UNION AND THE LAW.
Where do the SNP stand in a devolved government that breeches the treaty of union of one parliament?
The SNP.
Leaderless.
Clueless.
Hopeless.
Rudderless.
Ruthless.
WHERE does Westminster Parliament stand legally for creating more than one parliament in Britain, devolved or otherwise,
It is noted as the Scottish parliament in the Scotland acts which breech the treaty of the union.
Let’s be realistic here, ruling out a Holyrood election means independence is off the table now for at least another decade unless by some miracle happens and there is a significant change in the party before country, SNP leadership. KB’s disgraceful comments are a gift to the unionists and a massive insult to the 500,000+ 16-17 year / EEA / non EEA family member people in Scotland who have been patiently waiting to vote for independence.
Just think of all the complex processes involved in setting up an independent country – and the SNP can’t really be bothered with a basic parliamentary procedure. These folk just aren’t serious about this.
I wonder if they can even be bothered to schedule this conference before the next General Election.
My goodness, what a pathetic, I mean really, really pathetic bunch the SNP have become. Delay, delay, delay, over and over and over again.
Oh, we can’t do it until we have another mandate, Oh we can’t do it until we ask for a section 30, oh we can’t do it until brexit is voted on, oh we can’t do it until brexit happens, oh we can’t do it until we see the effects of brexit, oh we can’t do it until covid is over, oh we can’t do it until the economy recovers, oh we can’t do it until we get a section 30 (again), oh we can’t do it until the supreme court ruling, oh we can’t do it until next year, oh we can’t decide until we have another meeting, oh we can’t do it until 2024, oh we can’t do it until we have a fresh mandate…..rinse and repeat ad infinitum.
The SNP, a party of can’ts.
(intentional pun)
Do something useful today, join the ALBA party
link to albaparty.org
I’m waiting for the National to tell us to get ready for “indy”. As in indycision.
The Rev’s salary fundraiser was about “scaring” them a lot, well now they are fkg terrified because of their own incompetence and, best of all, the big beast of Bath is back.
Sharper than ever, willing and able to get them on the run. 🙂 NS and the rest of the cowards are desperate, the ring is closing so go and get them Rev.
If the SNP were just inept
You could say
Come on, guys. get your act together!
But its not ineptness
Its deliberate
Blatant can-kicking presented as careful consideration of the issue
We’re all Proustians now
Searching for lost time
So utterly depressing. And still, and still the snp faithful maintain their belief in the god like Sturgeon.
” We’re all Proustians now
Searching for lost time ”
Quite , Mike . Though it may now be not so much ” À la recherche du temps perdu ” as ” à la recherche de plus de façons de perdre du temps ”
In search of more ways to waste time
Stu. I’m not getting yer blog to inbox. Twatter Gremlins?
FOR ANYONE WHO HASN’T SEEN THIS VERY IMPORTANT ALBA PARTY ANNOUNCEMENT:
‘Alba Party to hold independence conference next week’
“Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh, the chairwoman for the Alba Party, said “going cap in hand” to the Supreme Court “was never a sensible tactic”.”
“It is now imperative that Scotland’s future be placed back in Scotland’s hands. Alba Party have a plan to ensure that this happens,” she added.”
“However, we know that the independence movement is bigger than any one political party, that is why we are calling on the entire independence movement to attend our event, listen to our vision for the way forward and contribute their own ideas.”
“Scotland right now needs a combination of popular action on the streets and a clear plan to take the country forward if we are to bend Westminster to our democratic will.”
The key part: “that is why we are calling on the entire independence movement to attend our event,”
Sounds like a call to action, folks.
Good post Stoker.
It does ideed seem to be a call to the entire indy movement. Interesting times. Perhaps we just need to bypass the utterly inept and complacent SNP government, since they now have zero interest in independence.
The full article about the ALBA Partys call to action: link to archive.ph
“However, we know that the independence movement is bigger than any one political party, that is why we are calling on the entire independence movement to attend our event, listen to our vision for the way forward and contribute their own ideas.”
Y’know it would be laughable if it wasn’t so serious, but remember when the US and UK blasted into Iraq, on the pretext of clearing out the terrorists and just happened to effect regime change by accident while they were there ?
Remember what chaos they caused when it became clear that no-one had bothered to even consider what the plan was AFTER they had totally blitzed the infrastructure, logistics, government, health service, police, military, power stations, roads, bridges….you get the gist.
So, Nicola and the Posse of Brainless Wonders must have had a pretty good idea their court case might fail, but never once sat down and said “Look folks, I think we have an iron clad argument, even though our top notch Law person thinks it’s pish, so can we just think about what Plan “Oooops We Did it Again” is so we don’t look like total morons if we lose ?”
I posted on Tweeter last night pointing out that NS is a con merchant and the abuse I had from SNP folk was divine – I’m a yoon, a unionist, never was an independence supporter, a divisive idiot, stupid, a half wit yada yada yada. There are still folk out there who think she has it all in hand, that there is a secret plan in her knicker drawer and anyone who thinks otherwise is obviously not fit to vote YES.
When will it all end ?
Why is Giugliano still involved?? Why does he even have an opinion on this when it is his fault SNP lost a majority on the last 2 Holyrood elections. He ran for Edinburgh West after running a disgusting campaign against Colin Keir who had a 2700 majority. He managed to fuck that up by ripping up the, Manifesto and just talking about mental health and himself. He gifted the seat to Alex CH who walked off with a 300 majority. Last election in another nasty selection he stood for the Dumbarton constituency and yet again he decided to go off script and make the whole campaign about his sensuality and his mental health. Jackie Bailey expected to lose that seat but againt yet aguan he lost the seat. Now he is the policy development convener where no doubt the ,an policies will be about himself. He also brags about his policy, strategy and policy experience which has won him fuck all. Remind him of any of this then the thin skinned arsehole blocks quicker than Bruce Lee. If Indy has a chance then him and all his gender extremists friends should all fuck off and join the greens where they will be more than welcome. Nobody has done more harm to our Indy prospects than this gimp.
This must be read by all, it gives a clear picture on the great theft of Scottish assets, and how we’ve been lied to, also ignorance has played it part as well.
“It sets out the evidence that Scotland while in a political and economic Union was never in a territorial Union.”
link to yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com
If anyone still thinks the SNP career MP’s at Westminster and the SNP career MSP’s at Holyrood believe in Scottish Independence, please get in touch as I’ve got a bridge I’d like to sell you.
Nicola Sturgeon’s SNP have sold Scotland and the Independence movement down the river. Such a parcel of rogues in a nation.
If this latest can-kicking doesn’t wake the Nicophants up then they truly are a lost cause. Does Sturgeon have to come round their doors and slay their first-borns or something before it dawns on them?
Anyone care to wager how long it’s going to take one of the hard of thinking to hove in to view to tell us we’re wring and we need a 2/3 majority in Holyrood? 🙂
Neale Hanvey wasn’t pulling any punches on the SNP’s disinterest in independence on the prism show today worth a watch
Orangenes may also possess a significant symbolic significance – so does yellowness…
Republic of Scotland: some of us have been saying for years now that it is to the Treaty that we must look to build a case in international law against the continuation of the Union. The Treaty created the Union and the Treaty will end the Union. That is the legal side. The political side is that, as the Rev says, we need to create the conditions under which we can move quickly and seamlessly to independence. I really do not think that a GE is the way, but, rather, that an extraordinary SE must be the way forward. The SC of the UK’s recent ruling, basically making any route off-limits, even international law routes, which it has no jurisdiction to rule on, should have been the catalyst to call a SE. If the SNP tries to pull another fast one with their “wait, I have a better plan” (I know, unlikely, because they have no plan whatsoever) they are going to implode because the pressure will simply increase to unbearable levels. Did they really think they could get away with another mandate or another referendum for a referendum for a referendum to set up a referendum. Pre independence referendums are totally, utterly unnecessary in international law. Ratifying referendums, following a declaration of independence, are the norm.
Do you think Murdo Fraser was involved with Arlene Foster getting involved in the Independence debate…I wonder what they have in common?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FihN_6XXgAgvXg1?format=jpg&name=900×900
@Republicofscotland
Is this the big exposé promised by adherents of cunning plans for indy during the week?
Can anyone enlighten me as to what the “Scottish National Congress” is, who formed it, who leads it and who funds it?
How about the Scottish Liberation Movement?
Are these the bodies that are supposed to be representing Scots in front of the international courts when Salvo get the 100,000 signatures?
Which courts are they going to?
On whose authority?
Will the courts they chose recognise them as having any standing to bring a case?
I think some folk might want answers before they take these bodies seriously. Have they had any advice from legal and constitutional experts that their proposed way forward holds any water?
Lorna Campbell.
I totally agree, there’s no route out of this prison like union that leads through Westminster, it must be organised and implemented by ourselves via Holyrood.
Salvo and Liberation are working hard on the Treaty side, and my link @3.27pm in which both have done a tremendous amount of work in unravelling and decoding information about the treaty that we need to spread far and wide, for unawareness and ignorance have played a very big part in the sustaining of this union.
Salvo/ Liberation are planning on approaching the UN with this eye opening new information.
Misprint surely by the Alba party – shouldn’t it read conference next year? Also a conference! – shouldn’t it read a meeting to discuss…? And no mention at all about all the paperwork.
Meanwhile in comparison, the SNP jn government, will “definitely” hold a meeting next year to discuss the sneakiest way to dig itself out of a hole of it’s own making. And there’s the paperwork as Keith Brown laments – bereft of civil servants , admin staff, “special advisers” to help manage.
And there is the urgency of the GRA business for the SNP to attend to.
Alas, woe is the SNP.
For all those still hoping that independence will be delivered by the SNP through a Plebs Biscuity election, Garrick Ollivander has a sale on in Diagon Alley – two wands for the price of one.
They have to go – not just Sturgeon, the whole rotten bunch of them, before any progress can be made. They will stand in the way of any and all initiatives by real independence supporters.
It is going to take longer than many people thought because the SNP are the immediate danger which needs to be addressed, as well as the main battle with Westmonster, and they won’t go quickly or quietly, so bed prepare to dig in.
There are positive signs on a number of fronts which indicate the SNP’s grip is being loosened. Keep up the pressure and we will be free of the manacles of the SNP and ready to take on the real fight.
How did the SNP find themselves in this position when the UKSC deliberated?. I don’t believe they didn’t game plan the outcome. In fact the MSM told us beforehand they had spent a lot of resource on this issue. Sturgeon has been hoist by her own petard. Her time as FM is over. A shoogly peg waiting to be flicked off the wall by a few SNP backbenchers whether they be SNP MSPs or MPs. Do it now or be humiliated by the electorate.
People are starting to notice that Westminster isn’t running the country the SNP is and to keep saying its Westminster fault isn’t going to win you any votes when everyone can see its the SNP denying us democracy.
I just wonder how long the deaf, dumb and blind are going to put up with this carry on film that has no end in sight.
I must be in the twilight zone and someone keeps turning back the clock.
Does the SNP really believe if they lose another referendum people will keep voting for them?
Andy Ellis @4.13pm.
I’d tell you to go over to Yours For Scotland and ask Iain Lawson all about it, but if I’m not mistaken, I think you’ve made a bit of stink of yourself over there.
“Garrion says:
27 November, 2022 at 2:50 pm
I’m waiting for the National to tell us to get ready for “indy”. As in indycision.”
Brilliant. I’m stealing this. Hope you don’t mind.
”
Confused.com says:
27 November, 2022 at 3:54 pm
Orangenes may also possess a significant symbolic significance – so does yellowness…”
Well said, Confused. Like many I am sick of the cowardice of the present nuSNP MPs and MSPs. Utterly useless. They are actively aiding Sturgeon and Westmonster’s attempt to shove Scots back in their boxes.
I think I am suspicious of Mr Ellis.
Everything he asks has been answered in the article he has clearly read. Because if he hadn’t read it how does he know what it was all about.
@ Merganser
There are positive signs on a number of fronts which indicate the SNP’s grip is being loosened.
Really? what are these positive signs you see?
It is going to take longer than many people thought because the SNP are the immediate danger which needs to be addressed,…
OK…so how long do you think, and what is going to bring about the SNP’s fall…? Presumably it’s linked to the positive signs yu insist are there?
@Republicofscotland
I’d tell you to go over to Yours For Scotland and ask Iain Lawson all about it, but if I’m not mistaken, I think you’ve made a bit of stink of yourself over there.
Well, in the past Mr Lawson has seen fit to delete comments of mine that (politely) disagreed with him. Alert readers will recall he did the same to comments from Rev Stu. It’s not as if I repetitively called him a cunt or anything, so I’m not sure why he’s so keen to suppress alternative views on his blog.
Perhaps he’s not very confident of his argument, or he’s just a control freak that doesn’t like to be questioned?
I’m not inclined to waste my time on folk who who won’t engage.
Perhaps Rev Stu would have more luck? Or maybe not…?
The question is, why is Mr Lawson afraid of debate?
@ Republicofscotland
Ignore him he’s a plant
Republicofscotland.
Lorna Campbell.
Many of us have been saying for years, “It is to the treaty of union that we must look for our salvation and Scotlands independence,”
I am blue in the face suggesting it, but I have not given up.
Living in hope that one day someone will also take a more serious and careful study on the old english parliament continuing its session in Westminster parliament until 1708.
But the Scottish parliament ending its legal identity session in 1707 by Agreeing to the treaty of the union.
I had questioned the legality of monarchy, rights to land, Crown assets under my treasure trove conversation on Wings a while ago as a metal detectorist,
Indeed It is to the treaty we must look for answers,
So Ellis pops up with his usual negativity, how long will it take for the usual mercenary “show us the money” clique to show up with their negativity , ye cannae dae this or ye cannae dae that
ALL Ellis repeats apart from moonhowlers and nativists is plebiscite, plebiscite, as if he’s the only one to have ever thought about it, BREAKING NEWS we were discussing it on here when you were still in your english stronghold and NOT thinking of indy
Yer pal schroedingers cat from PayPal Paul site used to mention it continuously but just like YOU he had no answer how to FORCE sturgeon to listen or obey , I have asked you every time you mention PLEBISCITE and you still have no answer
So when people are attempting to suggest or do ANYTHING that will move these arsehole politicians to do SOMETHING stop being so fucking negative
Believe you me most of us know that a plebiscite would work but as SC and the rest of us know as he is highlighting a REAL plebiscite election is NOT what is being offered
Stuart I have asked you on a couple of occasions what your opinion is in relation to SSRG , SALVO and Liberation.Scot, are they workable , are they credible ,it would be helpful to know your opinion , NOT that it would change my opinion but it might shut Ellis up from his constant denigration and negativity, independence is in a dire state just now we don’t need the likes of Ellis undermining and rubbishing people’s attempts to do SOMETHING , ANYTHING to get us out of this lunatic asylum
100%Yes says:27 November, 2022 at 4:35 pm
People are starting to notice that Westminster isn’t running the country the SNP is and to keep saying its Westminster fault isn’t going to win you any votes when everyone can see its the SNP denying us democracy.
I just wonder how long the deaf, dumb and blind are going to put up with this carry on film that has no end in sight.
I must be in the twilight zone and someone keeps turning back the clock.
Does the SNP really believe if they lose another referendum people will keep voting for them?
………………………………………………
Indeed, the SNP don’t want another Referendum at this time they made that clear some time ago and why link to heraldscotland.com
WM too has made clear what is required to get another Referendum yet this still doesn’t sink in with those with “cunning plans” they just invented themselves.So where is the 60% over a sustained period ? ”
“If you consistently saw 60 percent of the population wanting a referendum — not wanting independence but wanting a referendum [to take place] — and that was sustained over a reasonably long period, then I would acknowledge that there was a desire for a referendum,” Jack said. “Anyone can see that.” link to politico.eu
“
Spot on Twathater
I telt ye all already. Scot Gov have all their personal Xmas plans made, they are looking forwards to spending some quality time with their families and money, and they ain’t about to disrupt that for some annoying Indy stuff.
But, lest I get accused of negativity by TH, I remain persuaded by Peter Bell’s UDI approach he outlined a few threads ago. We could start in January, and have iScotland up and running by October 2023, subject to a Yes vote winning the referendum held after the T’s & C’s of iScotland’s constitution, economics and political system have been thrashed out.
We can’t delay, for the demographic reasons I outlined earlier today.
We’re in the middle of the cost-of-living crisis
Who is this WE he is talking about. Certainly not him or any other Holyrood MSP. Naw. No sitting in the dark, cold, hungry and fearful. Politicians are and always have been the problem
Andy Ellis says:27 November, 2022 at 4:51 pm
Well, in the past Mr Lawson has seen fit to delete comments of mine that (politely) disagreed with him. Alert readers will recall he did the same to comments from Rev Stu.
Perhaps he’s not very confident of his argument, or he’s just a control freak that doesn’t like to be questioned?
The question is, what is Mr Lawson afraid of.
——————————————
Being exposed that he has no actual real knowledge and is happier filling the usual moonhowler’s heads with what they want to hear instead ie “Scotlands being robbed” or Scotlands a colony” the usual simple stuff to fill their heads with so they can avoid thinking and having to really understand the more complicated stuff instead because they might get bored otherwise and stop worshipping him. Barrhead Boys Blog is much the same nowadays just little clubs for people who don’t want to think too hard for themselves or disagree with the Blogs owners. Control Freaks they both are. Any comments that don’t agree with the guff they write just doesn’t get ever published.
By saying SNP will use the 2024 GE as de-facto election on Independence means our people will have to endure 2 winters worrying about the cost of heating their homes and feeding their families. Is that the best Sturgeon can do after 8 years of wasted opportunity. I’ll give her 7 out of 10 as FM and a big fat 0 out of 10 as the leader of the Independence movement. Go on hen, prove me wrong.
If 50% + 1 vote for ‘pro independence party’…
the chamber still needs 2/3 in favour to effect change on reserved matters
Those punting plebiscitary election for Holyrood as a route to independence are selling shite. UKSC has said the tail can’t wag the dug unless it agrees. The ruling was only on HMA submission, SNP intervention was froth that fell and has no effect. Scotland Act cannot provide a route out, without express consent from the monarch & Privy Council.
But, the dug will have to agree with a ruling of the Court of Session, the ultimo arbiter of the status of Union with England Act 1707, its purpose and effects. WM don’t own it, the Scots do.
Seeking repeal of said law is the quickest route to independence.
Andy Ellis @ 4.44. ‘Positive signs’ ‘How long’
You don’t need me to tell you who the people are from which the positive signs are coming. They are all the good, genuine independence seekers who post on here and whom you so regularly
disparage. The SNP’s monopoly on independence is being eroded. Not as fast as I would like, but surely and steadily.
They are also the people I talk to who say ‘never again’ spontaneously when the SNP are mentioned; and those others who when they are told patiently what is happening, come to an acceptance that the SNP is an obstacle not the answer.
It’s not scientific analysis I can give you but I do sense a ‘wind of change’ starting to blow a bit harder. What do you find when you speak to people?
As for how long, I can only answer that question in this way:
Not as long as if it is left to the SNP.
Trying again to post a comment stu
“Those punting plebiscitary election for Holyrood as a route to independence are selling shite. UKSC has said the tail can’t wag the dug unless it agrees.”
Scott.
Maybe the notion hasn’t crossed your mind, but in order to exit this prison of a union, Holyrood will have to break UKSC laws, how on earth do you think the scores of nations that have since WWII stuck two-fingers up to English laws have become independent.
@twatbynametwatbynature 5.01 pm
BREAKING NEWS we were discussing it on here when you were still in your english stronghold and NOT thinking of indy …
Naw ye wurnae….I’ve supported indy for decades, longer than most of the nativists and moonhowlers in here certainly. hth/yw
@John Main 5:19pm
I agree with your first paragraph. However I don’t favour an UDI route. The demographic profile is actually in favour of Independence. If you want a quick solution to Independence then it’s replacing Sturgeon as FM. The single most effective way of restoring the power of the Independence movement. I have a chance to vote this Thursday, local Council by-election. It’s anybody but the SNP on my ballot.
” Any comments that don’t agree with the guff they write just doesn’t get ever published. ”
Utter pish . On almost every post of both B.B and YFS there are comments from people disagreeing with the O/P .
What neither of them want is entire threads being bogged-down by people just disagreeing for the sake of it , asking stupid questions , finding petty points to nit-pick with , attempting to divert from the O/P or flogging repetitive iterations of their own idée fixe .
They’re not intended as fckn debating societies . They are both giving their own time and energy in an attempt to further the cause of Independence . Not provide a venue for people who are too lazy to create their own blogs to hijack and poison with endless negativity .
@James Caithness 4.46 pm
I think I am suspicious of Mr Ellis.
Everything he asks has been answered in the article he has clearly read. Because if he hadn’t read it how does he know what it was all about.
Are you really? Why is that? Because I disagree with your worldview? Aw….wee scone….someone disagrees with you. However will you cope?
I haven’t read the latest multipage output from some self appointed interest group, because….stun us with another…. I actually have a life. Today was mostly spent watching seals at St Abbs and yomping about.
I might read the latest screed when I need some light relief. I expect to be about as impressed by its slam-dunk logic as Roddy Dunlop who has regularly been tearing Iain Lawson and other “cunning plans for indy” acolytes new ones on twitter over the past few days.
That’s what happens when amateurs whose mouths can’t cash the cheques their brains write come up against the kind of people very much like Roddy Dunlop who will be judging their cases in the unlikely event they ever see the light of day in front of an “international court”.
I’m wondering if the Sturgeon and Mone articles might have been combined since they are both on the same sort of theme, and they’re actually two very similar personality types when you think about it.
It seems like the SNP are all over the place but I presume they’re just backing down in the face of pressure brought to bear by the Unionist MSM. The message from London is pretty clear; tone down the plebiscitary election talk or the gloves come off.
We got a little taste of what the ‘gloves coming off’ means when Salmond was invited onto mainstream TV to discuss where Sturgeon went wrong in an interview that lasted about 20 minutes — that’s probably more air-time than Alba has had on mainstream TV in its whole life as a party.
The behaviour described as “all over the place” is Nicola’s predictable response to MSM pressure. She’s telling them not to worry, she’s got this, the plebiscitary election stuff won’t lead anywhere worth worrying about, that it’s all harmless bullshit intended to placate the rabble, nothing more…
She’s probably done enough to convince them and normal service will resume soon enough, but maybe not. The plebiscitary election idea is out there now, planted like a seed in the minds of the bewildered herd. It is an option, a possible way out of this dire Union, one that didn’t really exist before, and it can’t be undone.
Team Fleece-Scotland can’t be happy about any of this.
Republicofscotland says:
27 November, 2022 at 5:45 pm
“Those punting plebiscitary election for Holyrood as a route to independence are selling shite. UKSC has said the tail can’t wag the dug unless it agrees.”
Scott.
Maybe the notion hasn’t crossed your mind, but in order to exit this prison of a union, Holyrood will have to break UKSC laws,
—
Will it, aye? Good luck punting that strategy. Legislative Consent Motions say what?
Union with England Act 1707 is the only glue that binds Scotland to England.
We, the Scots, own that piece of legislation. WM doesn’t. Holyrood doesn’t.
You want it repealed?
Prosecute a case in the Court of Session.
The end.
Keith Brown was supposed to be running the SNP’s Rebuttal Unit, but has scarcely got beyond Homer’s rather basic response:
link to youtube.com
What has his RU done since 2016? The square root of Gove.
I have to admit, Stu, since your return, you’ve got the upper echelons of the SNP really pooping their pants and much quicker than I expected.
I wonder which rat will be the first to jump ship and commit an indiscretion?
@twatbynametwatbynature
Stuart I have asked you on a couple of occasions what your opinion is in relation to SSRG , SALVO and Liberation.Scot, are they workable ,…
Hmmnn…I wonder if Stu just doesn’t want to touch this with a ten foot pole, or if like most folks he just wants to know why nobody who seems to know what they are talking about like Roddy Dunlop thinks this has any legs?
Yeah, that’ll probably be it. I can only imagine the gnashing and wailing of teeth if Rev Stu does one of his forensic analyses of Salvo’s over egged Claim of Rights magical thinking pieces. There’s not enough popcorn in the world for THAT! 🙂
Anyone know anything about how the UN decide if a country is a colony?
Who approaches the UN the colonised or the coloniser?
Has the SNP approched the UN to establish if Scotland is a colony or did they just ask the coloniser?
I was suprised to read that Gibraltar was a colony and so are The Falkland Islands.
UN say Gibraltar is a colony and the UK objects to that description.
link to un.org
link to archive.ph
UK objects to description of Gibraltar as ‘British colony’ in EU law
@”Scott” 6.04 pm
You want it repealed?
Prosecute a case in the Court of Session.
The end.
If you’re going to convince anyone other than the voices in your head this has any validity at all, have you asked anyone who really knows their stuff?
I know you keep hiding behind the fact that you can’t do it yourself because *reasons*, but somebody else should DEFINITELY do it…..but has anyone who actually knows their stuff said they think your plan is a heartbreaking work of staggering genius?
No…?
Imagine our surprise.
Scott @ 5.36
It seems to me you are confusing things.
The Supreme Court ruled on the powers of Holyrood in respect of reserved matters, it didn’t rule on what parties could stand for in elections to Holyrood or on matters and courses of action that are extraneous to the business of a Holyrood. And frankly it couldn’t.
Mind for balance Andy there was a response to RD’s opinion.
link to yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com
Aye, all those fookin seals shagging like fook and spreading down the coast, effectively stopping folk accessing the land because “seal sanctuary” at Pettico Wick bay and other areas.
Seal lives matter! And fuck the fish due to the volume of them getting chomped by seals.
I used to enjoy getting a pollock off the Crocodiles Back.
At least storm Arwin knocked the numbers back a bit.
Mind you, the seals probably get a vote these days in NuScotland…
“You want it repealed?
Prosecute a case in the Court of Session.”
Scott.
A possibility, however, look at what happened when a private citizen (Martin Keatings) took his case to the Court of Session and that was for a lesser point on the need for an S30, and we had the Scottish Government and the Lord Advocate do everything in their powers to thwart it.
How does it work in a UK general election for overseas voters?
Can they just pick whatever candidate they want?
Could every overseas voter vote against Scottish independence in ‘Sturgeon Magical Mystery Referendum’?
A few things spring to mind reading the comments here.
The SNP leadership seem to have deliberately kept support for independence at 50/50 something that even James Kelly seems to agree with – nit-picking on 3-4%.
Wings own analysis suggests any movement one way is cancelled out by movement in the other direction and what small movement there is to Yes may well be demographic i.e. more young people getting the vote and older No voters no longer here.
The likes of Iain Lawson and Barrheid Boy seem to believe that research showing that those born in Scotland narrowly voted Yes in the 2014 ref means all we need is a cunning plan to restrict the franchise.
Is everyone happy to base independence on 50% + 1 – I’d of thought at this stage we should be riding the crest of a wave for independence not squabbling on how best to to get independence with 50% + 1 – thoughts?
I heard that the wages and pension plan in an independent Scotland will be much bigger than in Westminster, pass it on
Republicofscotland says:
27 November, 2022 at 6:18 pm
“You want it repealed?
Prosecute a case in the Court of Session.”
Scott.
A possibility, however, look at what happened when a private citizen (Martin Keatings) took his case to the Court of Session and that was for a lesser point…
—
Are you a practising idiot or the genetically programmed variant?
Fuck off with your gibberish. I don’t play.
Hatuey,
That is pretty much it in a nutshell.
Because the devolved government is Under the english Westminster parliament Domestic legislation,
That is why no one in the devolved government ( Snp) will push for Scottish independence from that platform.
They swore an oath to the crown that sits in the devolved government and Westminster,
They could be accused of treason.
Even although that very Devolved parliament Domestic legislation from Westminster breeches the treaty of the union articles and ratified acts.
Ruby.
I would presume the Country that feels oppressed by a possible Coloniser.
Ruby,
We supposedly have a treaty of union with England, but the treaty itself has fallen under Colonialism
You would think that wouldn’t you?
Maybe Scotland doesn’t have the right to even ask the UN.
velofello says on 27 November 2022 at 4:22 pm: “Misprint surely by the Alba party – shouldn’t it read conference next year?”
Article states it’s to be held on 10 December. I take that to mean this coming December, (2022). link to archive.ph
“The party led by former first minister Alex Salmond will host a special conference next month to plot the “way forward” for the independence cause. Alba said on Sunday they will convene a special national assembly in Perth on December 10, which will be open to any member of the public and will be addressed by Mr Salmond.”
Just when you thought the comments section was coming good the usual blowhard blockheads are back at it showing everyone how clever they think they are. God get a hobby and give us some peace.
I’m hoping the Alba Party initiative on 10th December will be very well attended. Here’s hoping Stuart and many others can all attend. It’s come at a ridiculously awkward time of year but that’s not of Alba’s making. Events have dictated play and i suppose if we want indy bad enough we have to go that extra mile, and then some more.
Please note, i’m not asking anyone on here (Stuart or otherwise) to declare if they’re going to be attending, that’s not a very wise (or nice) thing to do. Merely hoping aloud that as many folk possible attends, especially our big hitters, to put on a meaningful united show of strength.
Not just for the watching BritNats but equally important as much for those who would have us all believe they live and breathe indy. Not pointing at anyone in particular, Mr & Mrs Murrell. 😉
Saw Keith Brown on STV news.
Maybe it is just me but the distinct impression I had got from him is that he wants us to vote SNP at the next Westminster election so the SNP can go to Westminster and ask for a S30.
It was the same strategy for the last Westminster election so how is anything going to be different now?
It seems to be vote SNP at the next Westminster for the SNP only and not to further the constitutional argument in any way whatsoever.
Dan
There was a time, not so long ago, when the seas were hoaching with fish. And it didn’t matter how much of them the seals ate.
Like everything else, humans fucked that up.
I don’t have much sympathy for anybody who believes the only purpose of the wild world is to serve humanity. There’s 8 billion of us already, and another 2 billion expected in the lifetime of some readers on here. Like everything else natural, seals, if they survive at all, really will be a protected species by then. For all the good that will do them.
If you google
‘Alba Party to hold independence conference in December’
You’ll see quite a few newspapers have printed this story even the Shropshire Star!
I was checking to see what date was on the articles.
It would seem they don’t have a date at the moment just the time if was published ie 6 hours ago.
It states it’s a independence conference not to be confused with a party conference.
“It is now imperative that Scotland’s future be placed back in Scotland’s hands. Alba Party have a plan to ensure that this happens, Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh
Interesting!
I wonder if the SNP for Perth will be there!
@PacMan 7:17pm
I am not even going to vote SNP this Thursday never mind the next GE. Same old from the SNP. If Keith Brown wants to be the next SNP leader he needs to act now. He is an ex combat service veteran from the Falklands. Ditto for me, but Northern Ireland. He has an MBA, so do I. He spent his life in politics, I spent mine in Engineering. But I can’t believe how weak he is. Keith press the Sturgeon eject button now.
“Are you a practising idiot or the genetically programmed variant?
Fuck off with your gibberish. I don’t play.”
Scott.
It would appear you play the man and not the ball, why am I not surprised.
@Dan 6:16
That’s a great link, thanks. Two things jumped out when I read it:
1) A Scottish UDI is one of the valid routes to Indy. As it says, domestic legality or illegality is irrelevant when actions are being judged under international law.
2) The CoR states that no government has the authority to deny, rescind or alter any right of the Scottish people.
Just imagine how much further forwards we might have been today if we Scots had defended our Right to Roam during the Covid years. But, having let them away with trampling on the CoR then, it is so much more difficult to regain that lost ground now.
Maybes we will be smarter from now on.
@stoker
Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh, the chairwoman for the Alba Party
You are kidding me on?
Is that Tasmina having completed the Full House now of Party membership?
In addition to my last post, I have spent a fair amount of time going through the comments on WGD, and have been surprised at the number of sensible, well thought out posts by people who are openly critical of the SNP ‘strategy’. (Amongst the expected adulation of Nicola)
Instead of blanket ‘SNP is wonderful and the only way’, people are being allowed to say why they are not wonderful, and why. I never expected to read this. If you have the time, have a read.
There certainly seems to be something blowing through there. Whilst it lasts
O/T. Sorry, had a couple of drinks this evening. When I first read the Rev’s main article above, I could have sworn the word ‘Carotenemia actually read ‘Carrot Enema’! either way, the SNP can stick their carrots up their arse 🙂
So, indy conference open to all, on Saturday 10th December 2022, at 11am.
link to belfasttelegraph.co.uk
link to thenational.scot
So, if you want something done, get to this gathering. It is open to ALL in the indy movement regardless of any party or none.
This is exactly what the indy movement needs.
Keith Brown is a dithering fuckwit of immense proportions. Also he runs the most corrupt prison system in Europe.
Andy Ellis says:27 November, 2022 at 6:10 pm
Stuart I have asked you on a couple of occasions what your opinion is in relation to SSRG , SALVO and Liberation.Scot, are they workable ,…
Hmmnn…I wonder if Stu just doesn’t want to touch this with a ten foot pole, or if like most folks he just wants to know why nobody who seems to know what they are talking about like Roddy Dunlop thinks this has any legs?
Yeah, that’ll probably be it. I can only imagine the gnashing and wailing of teeth if Rev Stu does one of his forensic analyses of Salvo’s over egged Claim of Rights magical thinking pieces. There’s not enough popcorn in the world for THAT! ?
———————————————————-
Would anyone who isn’t mentally insane get engaged with Lawsons latest stuff , its all hugely embarrassing. Perhaps by setting the bar at 100K for Signatures He is hoping that he doesn’t actually have to engage with the EU and be found wanting. link to barrheadboy.com
Tinto Chiel at 607pm,
Exactly. It is nice to see the SNP wastrels finally getting called out on their inaction. This is why Scotland needs actual journalists like Rev Stu and wings.
Desimond
It might be an education for you to watch the whole of this video but I suggest you listen from 21 mins when Tasmina is asked about her political party history. link to youtube.com Since the conception of Alba she has worked all out for the cause of independence, second only to Alex for Wee Alba Book attendances. She is one of many women working all out for Alba, Womens Rights and for Scottish Independence. All this and a mother of 4! NO KIDDING…That Tasmina?
Meanwhile the Alba Party are not hanging about and are having a National Assembly in Perth on Saturday 10th December to discuss a way forward.
All are invited. Here is the link to register. Please share and promote.
link to albaparty.org
KT Lorimer
I’m in favour of the franchise following International best practice. It’s not normal to have an open vote regards constitutional matters.
& as it’s been demonstrated, if an indyref ever does go ahead, it would lose again because it’s open to abuse if it’s just a free for all.
Transients don’t get to decide a Nations fate.
We see that BS in action with the GRA. Sturgeon thought she was the First Lady of fecking everywhere & threw open a GR consultation *worldwide* so worldwide get to make our policy & soon to be laws even tho they probably couldn’t point to us on a map!public backlash forced them to re-run it but
Last I read – they kept the latest consultation (& who responded) a secret this time. Shona wasn’t for revealing it.
So no, it’s not to try win the Independence vote for me, it’s to make sure it’s fair & not open to abuse. Only the ppl who live here full time & for x amount of yrs. If we’re lucky enough to get indyref2 it’d be bloody stupid to throw it away just so part timers can have a wee vote too!
As an aside, do you all see the Good Law Project is riding into Scotland to cover English cases? Say what?
Regards Alba – they kicked into gear the moment the verdict came out along with barrhead boys emergency panel podcast.
They weren’t hanging about.
SNP were still looking for thier baffies FFS!
My one chuckle on Judgement day was Phil Boswell telling the cry babies (SNP yoof) to GTF!
*They felt threatened*
Boswell – WTF are you doing in a revolution? Get out the way!
LOLZ!
@Geri
I’m in favour of the franchise following International best practice. It’s not normal to have an open vote regards constitutional matters.
& as it’s been demonstrated, if an indyref ever does go ahead, it would lose again because it’s open to abuse if it’s just a free for all.
Transients don’t get to decide a Nations fate.
The franchise used in 2014 followed best practice. Self determination referendums use residence criteria, not putative citizenship criteria. The votes aren’t open, they follow the franchise decided and widely accepted by the movement. That’s what civic nationalism is. What you’re proposing isn’t civic nationalism.
Neither you or anyone else has demonstrated that that a subsequent indyref would be lost because of what you assert is abuse, and what others see as inclusive nationalism. Folk can’t just rock up and vote when they’re on holiday, or because they flew across Scotland once.
Get a grip.
Twathater
LOLZ *PayPal Paul*
@Geri 9:31pm
As far as GRR is concerned you are right. A cause that put Independence possibly beyond our reach. What for? Some paedophile can get access to our girls? So don’t vote SNP and vote for any party that
commits to repeal the legislation. Some of us have been here before re named person. A lot of resource then to defeat that legislation. Same difference, They want to get to the bairns and they will try anything. The SNP the paedophile party.
They get a vote if they’re a student, a short term worker/ renter, military & if they have a holiday home.
5 yrs + is International best practice. Some countries don’t even ask thier population to confirm jack shit.
We’re a colony now. They have an entirely different criteria. One I favour actually – no external interference. There goes Better Together & the BBC unless they register here.
@Andy Ellis 5.59
Roddy Dunlop makes a fool of himself in public far too often for somebody supposedly so intelligent.
He made a right fud of himself on Wednesday after the UKSC judgement, specifically re the gratuitous and offensive opinion expressed re colony or not colony.
He failed to see the opinion’s contradictions, or pretended to, and ended up flouncing off after declaring you should believe a SC justice’s opinion over your own eyes.
He’s not a fraction of the operator he thinks he is.
George.
Aye. A sure fire way to piss off yer core support & to backup the Unionist vote with The nonce party in charge of a Country? No chance!
St Nicola just had her knuckles rapped by a UN rapporteur who she couldn’t even name. There goes her retirement gig!
Anyway. As it’s proving so hard to get indyref2, if we do eventually get one it would be silly to repeat failure. rUK voted naw. They get thier own way everyday of the week. We don’t. It’s too important & will probably be our last.
@ Andy Ellis et al
Franchise can be lawfully restricted to those whose birth is registered in Scotland. To argue otherwise is just stoopid.
See Venice Commision’s CODE OF GOOD PRACTICE ON REFERENDUMS
1.2. Electoral registers
Fulfilment of the following criteria is essential if electoral registers are to be reliable:
i. electoral registers must be permanent or refer to a register that is constantly updated (population register or register of births, marriages and deaths)
ii. ….
link to venice.coe.int(2007)008rev-cor-e
However, for any referendum held via an Act of the Scottish Parliament, the franchise is already known.
Referendums (Scotland) Act 2020
link to legislation.gov.uk
But, for any referendum on Scotland’s unique status, you can expect a challenge to the franchise on grounds of proportionality (and lack of standing of the newbies v the born here). Each case turns on its own merits, notwithstanding legislation and ‘precedent’.
yw,hth
@Geri 10:35pm
It’s a sore one for me. Stu nailed it a couple of posts ago. My late Mum and all her effort has gone to waste and that includes Gordon Wilson, 80 years of effort and not 8 years. Stu with a tiger in his tank and Chris back on the scene, the best money I have ever spent. And an ex combat service veteran giving fealty to an impostor. Keith Brown honestly? What’s the expression. Yer tea is oot.
FFS I see english ellis now doesn’t only think he runs WOS he is also answering for Stuart Campbell
TBQH english ellis as I wrote in my comment it doesn’t matter to me what Stuart’s views are I still believe in SSRG , SALVO and Liberation.Scot at least they don’t say they will actively work against independence if their wives or husbands from outwith Scotland don’t get a vote
@”Scott”
you’ve come out with the Venice Convention bullshit before. It still doesn’t answer the fact that international best practice, as the ill-informed or just ill-intentioned nativists keep banging on about, is for a franchise based on residence, not ethnicity, blood lines or putative citizenship criteria which *might* apply post independence if Scots ever find the political balls to vote for it.
Doubtless you’ll then change tack to the failed comparison with non-self governing territories like Gibraltar and New Caledonia, despite it being demonstrated beyond any doubt – and now confirmed by the Supreme Court – that it doesn’t apply in the case of Scotland.
By all means, hitch your creaking and ramshackle intellectual cart to the Salvo wagon….but then you’re going to have to show how this much vaunted appeal to some international court which they can’t identify, on behalf (they assure us) of 100,000 signatures they don’t have yet, presented by two bodies virtually nobody in Scotland elected or appears to have heard of, whose funding and appointment processes are entirely opaque.
So much for open democracy, eh?
@Geri 10.02 pm
5 yrs + is International best practice. Some countries don’t even ask thier population to confirm jack shit.
No it isn’t. Posting what you *wish was true* as fact, doesn’t somehow render it true. International best practice for self determination referendums is a residence based franchise. Most have imposed no residence criteria at all. A couple have imposed 24 months residence criterias.
Some have had franchises MORE liberal than the one used in Scotland in 2014. Catalonia allowed Catalans abroad who registered a vote, as well as citizens from all EEA countries and Switzerland.
Banging on about what the citizenship criteria used by already independent countries just makes you look ill-informed or intellectually dishonest: which is it in your case?
@twatbynametwatbynature 2.28 am
I see you can’t resist scratching the regressive nativist itch to use “English Ellis” as a form of abuse, following on from the baleful example of the regressive nativist in chief Gareth Wardell? I wonder how that looks to all those undecided voters out there, and to those from the rest of the UK who will have a vote in the next referendum or plebiscitary election, you know…the folk we need to convert to achieve a majority?
I wonder if you substituted another descriptor instead of “English” if people would find that acceptable? Asian perhaps…? Or Black? Muslim?
Othering people like that is never a good look. Thankfully, regressive nativists like you don’t represent the majority of the movement, and none of the pro-independence parties share your blood and soil obsession.
I enjoyed watching Gareth Wardell’s face when both Alex Salmond and Tasmina Ahmed Sheik poured cold water on the shameful nativist prospectus at the Edinburgh Wee Alba Book meeting: he looked like a bulldog that had just chewed on a wasp. 🙂
I neither think, nor have I ever said i aspired to run WoS, or to represent Rev Stu’s views. I do like pointing out where he’s publicly said something that triggers regressive nativists though, particularly because it appears to drive them nuts, even as they insist that while he is central to the movement but he’s wrong about this issue.
Nobody is stopping you believing that everything SSRG, Salvo and Liberation is gospel truth. You’re not being silenced, you’re just being challenged to back up your nativists positions with evidence, in much the same way Rev Stu forensically analyses issues.
So far you and the other nativists are coming up empty, as the posts by Ger and “Scott” up thread amply demonstrate. yw/hth as “Scott” always says.
I see Andy’s back on the franchise matter again.
I’ve rested my neck overnight but he never did answer my question about whether he’d accept a policy change for “the movement” that resulted in a net gain of Scots for YES.
He tries to find fault with nearly suggestion or discussion that might help make Scots more receptive to returning Scotland to self-governance. It’s almost as if he is working to keep things at 50 / 50…
link to wingsoverscotland.com
The SNP will never deliver independence, Sturgeon will put every barrier in our way for her colonial masters. She cannot be trust, 8 years of nothing 6 mandates of in action while she erodeds our nation from the inside out. She could have withdraw our MPs straight after the Supreme courts sham ruling taking this opportunity to highligh the hypocrisy of Democracy in the UK to the World. Or resign and put their UK,Ok state in turmoil. Why didn’t she because the UK government already knew they would have no consequences for their subversion of our democracy. Quite plainly they have her in their pocket and they set the agenda. She delivers the sound bite for the sheep to keep them on side and the sham of anindependence party in the form of the SNP keeps going for as long as the game lasts pouring billions of pounds into the UK failed state.
@Dan 8.44 am
I’m back on it because people insist on positing disinformation or factually incorrect statements about it. That isn’t going to change: as long as the nativists keep doing it, I’ll keep pointing out the inaccuracies.
I didn’t see your point last night because I got bored with you.
I’m as entitled as you or anyone else to say what I think the views of “the movement” are. I’m not claiming to speak on behalf of anyone but myself, you’re just desperately straw manning to prop up the desperately thin gruel that passes for an argument in your head.
All the things you posit in your earlier post are hypothetical. It is of course possible that the nativist prospectus will be wildly popular with Scottish voters and lead to a nett gain in votes. The opposite is also possible.
As I pointed out before, how do you or any other nativist know what the impact would have been if “the movement” had tried to hold indyref1 on a nativist franchise? Even assuming the britnats had agreed to a S30 Order on that basis (which is highly doubtful) how do you know that a socially and politically regressive anti civic nationalist franchise wouldn’t have LOST us votes in 2014? You don’t of course, but it’s certainly arguable.
In general I’d support any change or policy position that enjoys majority, unless it was something that I felt was against my principles. I imagine that would be most folks position. As I already said, if “the movement” via its parties and the elected Scottish government elected to change the franchise to address issues like excluding temporary residents, or ensuring that those with second homes only had one vote to use, or possibly even asking for a minimum residence criteria of 24 months in line with precedents elsewhere, I’d support it.
If the movement abandoned civic nationalism and tried to e.g. restrict the franchise to native born Scots, or impose a 10 year residence criteria, I’d oppose it, campaign against it and refuse to vote for it. I don’t give a shit if nativist moonhowlers aren’t happy about it, or thing that’s wrong because just because they’re prepared to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Principles are important. Civic nationalism is important. Rev Stu’s original points fisking the nativist prospectus still stands. I can’t help it if regressive nativists greet about it. Cry harder.
The Covid excuse has disappeared, so they’re now clinging onto the cost of living ! Can’t even call them spineless….. they’re worse than that.
@ Andy
That’s the whole point of having and allowing discussion to be had on the subject though. Yes, it may all be hypothetical but that’s the point. You say it doesn’t really matter because we may be years away from it being relevant, but tactically it is far better to know and plan accordingly. It would therefore be better to find out what Scots actually think on the subject.
Always being reactive to events and situations is why “the movement” is so often caught on the back foot and squanders time and energy reserves fighting rear guard actions. It’s inefficient us of time. And it’s getting rather tedious constantly having to work with folk that can’t seem to apply themselves tactically in the longer term to what we are up against.
#ProperPlanningPreventsPissPoorPerformance.
There are many different ways of campaigning and canvassing what folk think. I do spend a lot of time interacting with folk face to face so it’s far easier to have informal chats to ascertain where they are at, rather than internet site bubble conversations, or polling question answers.
@ Dan
That’s the whole point of having and allowing discussion to be had on the subject though.
Nobody is being silenced, nor are they saying discussion isn’t allowed or is pointless. Rev Stu said as much in his original demolition of what passes for the nativist case over a year ago. As an issue it may not be pressing because none of “us” in here really believe indyref2 is going to happen any time soon.
I actually agree that the issue is still relevant though, and should be discussed, as it has been at length in here on numerous occasions, much to the chagrin of some.
Nobody is stopping supporters of franchise restriction stating their case. To date however, nary a one has effectively answered any of Rev Stu’s original points. Don’t you find that odd? Instead they come out with the same arguments over and over again: we wuz robbed, no other country would allow this, best practice in other countries excludes these voters.
Even the few who are honest enough to admit that such a change IS contrary to best practice and precedent, still insist that it’s necessary because it’s the only way we can win, ignoring the alternatives of both trying to increase turnout and of just persuading more voters to switch.
Such is the inchoate rage of the moonhowlers that anyone suggesting that they may be on the wrong tack is othered as “English” or a “tractor” / MI5 plant / Sturgeonite / not a “real” independence supporter….yadda, yadda, yadda.
I don’t recall you remonstrating with the worst abusers and those othering me and others, but you’re certainly keen on calling me out for what you regard as my intemperate language. I don’t regard you as a good faith actor in this. I’ve seen your MO and I wouldn’t trust you any further than most of the usual suspects.
You have zero self awareness.
You throw insults around then go crying when it’s returned.
Who is allowed to take part in UK General elections & referendums? Why don’t they allow a free for all?
Hang on folks it was hard enough getting folk to register to vote last time around – how on earth would this franchise idea be set up, I can’t see a practical way of doing it until we are a normal country.
@Geri
The franchise for indyref1 was agreed by the parties to the Edinburgh Agreement. the Yes movement didn’t query it and held it up as a positive sign of civic nationalism in action. The franchise is a residence based one used for elections.
That is the kind of franchise used in virtually all self determination referendums since World War 2, yet you and other nativists still harp on about it being a free for all, or misrepresent it as allowing anyone here on a day trip, or who ever at a fried Mars Bar being allowed the vote.
It doesn’t appear to matter how often you are corrected about your factual errors, you return to it again and a gain like a dog to its own vomit. It’s tiresome. Whether you do it because you don’t know any better, or just because you’re being disingenuous is a matter for yourself.
You’ll also note that unlike the usual suspects in here having a go at me or anyone else who dares to disagree with them, I’m not accusing you of being a plant, or playing for the other side or calling you a tractor*.
That’s the real difference between the two sides of the debate. Regressive nativist is as regressive nativist does I suppose?
Sad I’m no longer getting these great Wings posts to my email. Anyone else having the same?
Andy.
You didn’t answer the question.
If it’s so great & widely accepted – why doesn’t England? Barbara fae Manchester now living in Benidorm could brexit & they weren’t a resident.
The franchise was accepted because it favoured the UK government who could count on the rUK voters to vote ‘British’ ‘Rule Britannia!’ Just as they screwed the Welsh vote on Brexshit.
@Geri
What question? It wasn’t clear to me what the question was.
Why doesn’t England what….?
That not why the franchise was accepted. It was accepted because nobody proposed an alternative or thought it was feasible or politically expedient or indeed morally right to propose excluding some random group of New Scots because a hard core of regressive nationalists thought it was a gold look or the right thing to do.
Cameron and the britnats caved in to most of Salmond’s demands for indyref1, whether because their hubris told them they’d win comfortably or just because they thought the terms were generally acceptable is really neither here nor there. That might have been rather different if the Yes movement had tried to exclude 10% of the electorate (in direct contravention of precedent in other self determination referendums) on the basis they weren’t Scottish enough.
@ Andy
There have actually been quite a lot of suggestions and justifications put forward to both counter and agree with different aspects of what Stu has said on the subject though, should you actually have bothered to take them on board instead of continually stating nobody has come up with anything.
And with respect to Stu, and to an extent your views, these proffered opinions on the franchise have come from folk that live and have actively campaigned in communities and on the streets face to face with Scots, which is a significantly different way of picking up the general vibe compared to internet chatter and polling.
As for your: “I don’t recall you remonstrating with the worst abusers and those othering me and others, but you’re certainly keen on calling me out for what you regard as my intemperate language.”
You get what you give is all on that score. And I really only call you out with your continual modus of constantly grouping anonymous folk into your derogatory groupings, which is effectively trolling / goading folk to respond which just perpetuates discord. Whilst it also tries to create the impression to the less engaged readership that btl is full of extreme nasties.
You look to create hostility. Just the other day you couldn’t help but “stick your neck in” to an interaction between John Main and I where I asked if we could resolve the ongoing btl discord by simply naming all these EU sycophants he claims are btl on this site, because he was falling into the modus of what you do by creating some mythical group that in reality may not actually exist.
You can’t justify it as too much effort to name folk as there really aren’t that many regular btl commenters that I can think of who are absolutely committed to Scotland rejoining the EU, as many now think the compromise position of EFTA or EEA may be more appropriate. John and I managed to reach pretty much that position so there isn’t the need to continue to perpetuate the idea and discord of there being nothing but polarised extreme views on that subject.
“Yomping”, now let me think … where have I heard that fucking word before?
Talking Heads (1980): Remain in Light: The Great Curve:
“…She is moving by remote control
To move the world – To move the world
Hands that move her are invisible…
A world of light
She’s gonna open our eyes up…”:
link to tinyurl.com
@Dan
…should you actually have bothered to take them on board instead of continually stating nobody has come up with anything.
That simply isn’t true. There hasn’t been anything that answers Stu’s original fisking. The counter arguments have been almost entirely without merit. Even those that *might* potentially gain some traction like dealing with students having two votes or ensuring those with two properties only have one vote, or having a limited residence criteria, still fail to provide any cogent rationale for changing the existing franchise on the grounds of the original objections in Stu’s thread: the game isn’t worth the candle, it’s morally indefensible and could easily be an electoral liability.
You look to create hostility. Just the other day you couldn’t help but “stick your neck in” to an interaction between John Main and I where I asked if we could resolve the ongoing btl discord by simply naming all these EU sycophants..
Not so. I respond to those abusing me and sometimes I respond to obvious falsehoods. I’m not the one constantly cunt calling, or insisting other posters are enemy agents etc. I supported John Main’s point because I thought he was right and you were wrong.
From your MO I wouldn’t trust anything much you said.
You can’t justify it as too much effort to name folk as there really aren’t that many regular btl commenters …
You just answered your own question. Everyone knows who the usual suspects were and are. Since there aren’t that many, by your own admission, it is simply nugatory effort constantly referring to the unthinking claque individually.
They don’t have to be identified individually on every occasion. We can absolutely justify not having to name folk: some of them are better remaining nameless.
yw/hth as one of them often signs off.
I don’t understand the argument about the EU – surely whatever our views about the EU at the time of the EUref we can all now see that membership of the EFTA would benefit Scotland and can be virtually instantaneous – possible membership of the EU can and would have to wait anyway.
@KT Lorimer
Exactly so. Since an independent Scotland will be outside the EU, it makes sense to go for EFTA membership which it appears would be relatively straightforward. Opponents of the EU like John Main ca’t reconcile themselves to the fact that its overwhelmingly likely Scottish public opinion will still support full EU membership in due course.
Again, it’s vanishingly unlikely that the EU will do anything other than fast track Scotland’s membership should we apply. Finland went from application to full membership in 24 months from memory, and it had none of the history of being. member that Scotland has.
Few Scots share the brexiteer fixation that being in the EU means we’d only have “pretendy” independence. Hundreds of millions of European citizens from the 28 member states think that’s a spurious argument.
I would look forward to a proper informed debate about membership – seems to me that the EU has become more of a political entity rather than just a trade one since the UK left e.g. taking a clear side in the Ukraine/Russia conflict.
I would also be very wary of extra pressure being put on new members to join a currency that I certainly do not see as being in Scotland’s interest.
@ Andy
You start with:
“That simply isn’t true. There hasn’t been anything that answers Stu’s original fisking.”
And just who elected you to be the judge and jury and dismiss all of the valid input and experiences of many long term activists on the matter.
Your utter dismissal of any views that don’t align with your own shows how unsuited you are to helping build any semblance of unity.
You may want to consider being a little more receptive to the views of folk that actually have pounded the streets campaigning, as jist maybe they have more relevance and are in tune with wider society than distanced and impersonal internet campaigning and polling.
And I note you sneakily clipped off the part “…that I can think of” to twist what I said to suit your attempt to deflect from naming these supposed EU sycophants.
“that I can think of” means it is in my head, so how could the wider lurking readership know who I am thinking of… or is this you yet again knowing what every reader thinks and is aligned with my thoughts…
And tbh I am actually struggling to think of any regular btl commenter that is hard line for Scotland rejoining the EU, especially with recent actions with regard to country 404, and also when the future membership terms for an Indy Scotland are not even known.
That is why it is inappropriate to group un-named folk, and especially without there also being definitions to these created groups. eg. Is someone that thinks it is a no brainer to tighten up the franchise to deal with transient workers, 2nd homes, and students a “nativist”, or are they jist “semi-nativists”…
The rest of your post whining about being abused is really none of my concern and out of my hands as you throw plenty of flack about yourself, and we are all grown ups who should be able to behave and defend ourselves on such matters. Plus Stu, who you agree with so much has also stated multiple times for folks to give it a rest on that front.
@Dan
You may want to consider being a little more receptive to the views of folk that actually have pounded the streets campaigning, ..
Oh do give it a rest with the sanctimonious “man of the people” stuff trying to make out you have some special insight. We hear it all the time from those that think posting a few leaflets or being an activist means they are privy to arcane knowledge, or that the path to a majority is having a group hug or putting up with roasters spouting regressive shit and acting like they have a valid point of view, even if we disagree with them. Sometimes they’re just spouting regressive shit.
As for the rest: self justificatory verbiage. You’re even more tiresome than I thought originally. I don’t care enough about your opinions to engage any further.
@ Andy
I note you’re playing the man rather than the ball again…
You actually completely disregarded the valid input of many different people.
And your pathetic rant proves you have zero idea of just how much time and effort many activists have committed to the cause of returning Scotland to self-governing status.
Alastair says:28 November, 2022 at 10:18 am
The SNP will never deliver independence, Sturgeon will put every barrier in our way for her colonial masters.Quite plainly they have her in their pocket and they set the agenda. She delivers the sound bite for the sheep to keep them on side and the sham of anindependence party in the form of the SNP keeps going for as long as the game lasts pouring billions of pounds into the UK failed state.
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FFS Scotland’s 5 million tax payers don’t fund the other 65 million in the UK FFS (just think about it) , learn some real tough truths and start properly campaigning on economic realities instead of invented and misinformed fantasies, its no wonder the Yes movement is going round the U bend with the same continual whinging utter drivel. link to fullfact.org
Dan says:28 November, 2022 at 8:48 pm
@ Andy
I note you’re playing the man rather than the ball again…
You actually completely disregarded the valid input of many different people.
And your pathetic rant proves you have zero idea of just
Dan says:
28 November, 2022 at 8:48 pm
@ Andy
I note you’re playing the man rather than the ball again…
You actually completely disregarded the valid input of many different people.
And your pathetic rant proves you have zero idea of just how much time and effort many activists have committed to the cause of returning Scotland to self-governing status. to the cause of returning Scotland to self-governing status.
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No He really isn’t and the fact that you only endlessly choose to project yourself as some sort of victim due to your own lack of factual knowledge says much. “how much time and effort many activists have committed” chasing pointless rainbows is no-ones fault but their own when they don’t appear to understand the actual real issues involved and go off chasing rainbows they will never catch. The hard of thinking though are easily manipulated by others who appear to get a kick out of being able to do get them to do their bidding “for the cause” it gives them a feeling of importance. The Grand Old Duke of York apparently used to do the same sort of thing and the foot soldiers never questioned him either.
Jesus H. Cunt says:27 November, 2022 at 10:05 pm
@Andy Ellis 5.59
Roddy Dunlop makes a fool of himself in public far too often for somebody supposedly so intelligent.
He made a right fud of himself on Wednesday after the UKSC judgement, specifically re the gratuitous and offensive opinion expressed re colony or not colony.
He failed to see the opinion’s contradictions, or pretended to, and ended up flouncing off after declaring you should believe a SC justice’s opinion over your own eyes.
He’s not a fraction of the operator he thinks he is.
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Wow another of the clueless who thinks Scotland’s top Advocate in the Law doesn’t know as much about the law as he has “because He has eyes” I’m pretty sure sure the top legal heads from all parts of the UK who make up the Supreme Court have better knowledge of the actual law better than you do as well. If you wanted to know if “matters of the constitution” are reserved or not all you have to read is the Scotland Act 2016. The Scotland Act that Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon put their names to. Sturgeon knows whats in the Scotland Act and knew its law ,she deliberately chose to ignore it for political reasons but knew all along Her pretendy ref would fail but others would get the blame for that instead of Her. Try opening those eyes.
Given Gordon Ross of Indycar Gordon, revealed that he was approached by MI5 , you start to wonder how many SNP MP/MSP so called independence supporters have also been approached and took up the offer.
Given Gordon Ross of Indycar Gordon, revealed that he was approached by MI5 , you start to wonder how many SNP MP/MSP so called independence supporters have also been approached and took up the offer.
The work of activists shouldn’t be derided. They do stellar work..
FFS they’re the ones standing on street stalls in all weathers & chapping doors. Some getting a warm welcome – others spat at & told to GTF! Or attend counts & polling stations. Of course they’ll have a wealth of knowledge & feedback. *Word on the street is..* is invaluable.
They can make or break politicians too. I hear SNP have lost all thier best ones.
So drop yer stuffing leaflets slurs. They know more & do more than you do which seems to be just arguing on the internet.
Hi Geri.
“The word on the street”…
As somebody types in the comments, this must be one of the best plot devices ever.
link to youtube.com