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Another 24 hours

Posted on June 16, 2016 by

Good grief. And we thought yesterday was grim.





The media still managed to drag the SNP in, of course.


Another week to the EU referendum yet, folks.

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    1. 17 06 16 20:05

      We Do Not Need It; We Will Not Use It | A Wilderness of Peace

    189 to “Another 24 hours”

    1. One_Scot says:

      Seriously, if Scotland cannot become Independent from this shit, then I despair for our future generations.

    2. Bugger (le Panda) says:

      The UK is poisoned.

      We need out

      Sorry if is this simplistic but, I think this sincerely.

      End of.

    3. jim watson says:

      Its hard to try to imagine just how low you have to be to try to make political capital out of a senseless killing of an MP….

      As for the england fans and UKIP, where does one even begin to try to understand that type of behaviour and genuine lack of humanity…

    4. RogueCoder says:

      Yeah, I’m just not doing this EU ref crap any more. I’m going to spend the next week packing boxes and pretending it’s for Christmas. The sooner this awful bloody referendum – this awful bloody year – is over, the better. With a bit of luck, maybe we’ll come out of 2016 with another shot at real democracy in Scotland.

    5. Ruglonian says:

      Shame on UK

    6. Luigi says:

      If the UK remains in Europe because of a large Scottish IN vote, in spite of a narrow English OUT vote, there will be hell to pay. Seriously, if the jocks get the blame for this, things could get very nasty.

      Careful what you wish for.

    7. Bob Mack says:

      The media in general and many politicians have good cause for self examination today.They have contributed to the state of the UK today.and the events that unfolded. For what? British values?

      They are a myth. There are people out there influenced by this garbage and who will act on what they perceive as the “facts”. We are all poorer after today. Poverty of tolerance, differences and compassion. The lassie was a good person, and her family were richer for having her.

      I cannot write any more.I need time to reflect on how we get away from lunatics hell bent on pushing their awful narrative, and all in the name of the UK.

    8. heedtracker says:

      To be smeared like this with such an awful tragedy in England is probably the lowest the UK media’s got, so far. Proto-fascism is an ever present threat almost everywhere though.

    9. Peter Macbeastie says:

      Regarding the terrible death of Jo Cox; the single most horrible event in a whole litany of misery.

      I am struck by one particular aspect of the news report I heard just before six this evening. The police announced that it was not related to terrorism.

      I expect most people thought that was a good thing. Probably is. I just wondered how this seemingly random attack on an individual, motivated by political bigotry, wasn’t terrorism when a seemingly random attack on an off duty soldier in London a couple of years ago was terrorism.

      I can only really arrive at one conclusion and I don’t really want to put it on screen.

    10. Iain More says:

      Christ another week of this. We need out of the UK and fast!

      What a poisonous shithole of a place the UK is!

    11. Papko says:

      RE the England fans and the kids drinking etc , Its only a newspaper article and as this site shows everyday, there are always two sides and multiple angles to every story.

      I would incline to think the England fans were drunk and boisterous, throwing money at street kids(which they then pocketed), has been going on for centuries.
      It was standard fare at every wedding I was at (in the 70’s) to have a “scoor-oot”.
      Usually by the best man and a load of loose change. there may well have been drunkeness there and who knows some guest may have said discouraging things about the young lads and myself who gathered round outside the church, waiting for it.

      Likewise the pint and the young lad, no doubt he was game for it.

      I do think the Journalist’s are taking harmless enough incidents and weaving a story, which denigrates the many thousands of English football fans travelling in France.

    12. Helpmaboab says:

      This is the ugly pinnacle of an ugly referendum campaign. A campaign that has brought the hate-filled dogma of British nationalism into the mainstream of public life.

      For decades almost every branch of the UK’s press and many branches of its political establishment have steadfastly preached xenophobia, racism, bigotry and social division. They probably thought that it suited their agendas.

      But today they’ve unleashed something beyond their control. Something intolerant, violent and cruel. Something quintessentially “British”.

      The last vestiges of respect for Britain have been driven out of my soul. Hell mend them.

    13. shiregirl says:

      What the hell is happening this week? It’s all gone mad.

      Awful, senseless taking of a young life – and it sounds like she was an incredibly talented and caring person. My thoughts are with her family.

      And still, there are some trying to capitalise on it and put down SNP. Disgusting behaviour – I am waiting to listen to the pod cast.

      But still, the ref will happen. Looking for opinions here. Do you think it’s better to vote ‘out’ (- it may make it more likely that there will be indy ref II?) or vote ‘remain’ and risk being saddled in the Union?

      I honestly am not sure. Part of me is thinking what is the point.

    14. Robert Peffers says:

      Many commenters on Wings have previously warned how things would get much worse the closer we got to the day of the actual EU vote.

      Looks very much like they were right but they cannot conceivably now get much worse – or can they?

    15. Papadox says:

      Can any dedicated committed yoon out there explain to me why they want to hold onto Scotland and prevent us from running our own wee country? are they so anti Scottish?
      Just simple positive reasoning would be interesting.

    16. HandandShrimp says:

      Absolutely shocking act of violence and murder, carried out on a very decent MP indeed. RIP Jo Cox.

      No idea who Fogarty is but in that quote she is clearly attempting to tar the SNP by association when I think most, if not all, of the few arrests for violent behaviour were of ultra unionist wing nuts. If she had genuinely wanted to compare the Scottish referendum to the EU one she should have made that quite clear.

    17. Brian McHugh says:

      Peter, don’t you know terrorism is only carried out by brown people? The BBC didn’t say it was terrorism… so it must not have been!

      Terrorism (?t?r?r?z?m)
      The unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

    18. heedtracker says:

      I honestly am not sure. Part of me is thinking what is the point.

      Vote In because history usually repeats itself. Fascism in Europe caused two world wars and we have UK fascists campaigning for Leave in England right now. If we leave the EU, far right England will be unstoppable. Our media is fascist and there are more than enough fascist MP’s and voters. If they can take Westminster, Scotland will pay a heavy price.

    19. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I would incline to think the England fans were drunk and boisterous, throwing money at street kids(which they then pocketed), has been going on for centuries.”

      Then you’d be wrong. There’s video footage and an eyewitness account from a Financial Times journalist.

    20. Paula Rose says:

      In this day and age I notice that electorates are split effectively 50/50 on progressive v scared/ contented – the vagaries of differing election systems distorts this.

    21. Juteman says:

      Are you a troll? HTF will voting ‘out’ make another referendum more likely?
      Vote ‘Remain’ if you want another referendum.

    22. As a committed Yesser and English expat, I am starting to get seriously worried about how England might go after Scottish independence.

    23. Taranaich says:

      I had thought the Shelagh Fogarty thing was blown out of proportion, that it must’ve been misheard.

      But no.

      “… you look at the Scottish referendum and we know there were some unfortunate ugly incidents and pleas by the SNP leaders for better behaviour from some of their members…”

      Once again, the false equivalence of the Yes campaign to the SNP. Once again, the complete omission of the many assaults made against Yes campaigners by No campaigners. And once again, the reinforcement of the idea that the indyref – an event that saw hundreds of thousands of Scots become engaged and politically aware – was actually a time of horrible division and dreadful misery for everyone involved.

      But we’re not going to play their game. Hatred is the weapon of the enemy. We do not need it. We will not use it. Our weapons are knowledge, trust, motivation, hope, and love. You can kill any one of us, but you cannot kill an idea.

    24. Orri says:

      Sometimes all you can do is show people a mirror so they can take a good fucking look at themselves. Farage and all the other pedlers of low grade pandering to xenophobia seeming to be about to win this referendum must be boosting the belief in the hardcore nutjobs that their day is comming and England, if not the whole of the UK, support them.

    25. Doug Daniel says:

      This is what happens when the media and politicians pander to and promote racism and the politics of hate. This entire referendum has been built on the back of years of the disgusting scapegoating that the likes of the Daily Mail have used to sell papers, and that politicians have used to avoid having to deal with the real issues facing society. They tell people immigration is a problem, let the likes of Britain First and the EDL fester, and then pretend to be surprised when it ends like this. And will they learn from this? No, of course they won’t. They’ll shed a few tears, tweet about how their “thoughts are with the victim’s family and friends”, and then carry on demonising immigrants.

      Contrast this with our referendum, which was inclusive and positive. The difference between ethnic and civic nationalism couldn’t be clearer. In over two years of debating, not a drop of blood was shed, and the only casualty was an egg. Let this be the end of the nonsense about the independence referendum being “divisive”, or whatever other insulting rubbish gets bandied about by exactly the kind of people who have helped create the conditions that have led to this tragedy, which now simply serves to highlight just how peaceful our referendum truly was.

      Politicians are patting themselves on the backs for cancelling an evening of campaigning. Just cancel the whole bloody thing instead.

    26. donald anderson says:

      Of all of the nations in all of the world to be ruled by Engerland does not amount to a hill of beans.

    27. Wullie says:

      Will Scotland vote in or out of the EU. I still wonder about those two million no voters form our own ref, will they scupper Scotland and vote out with their beloved Blighty .

    28. @Juteman i agree, if Scotland Votes to stay in and England votes us out we will get #IndyRef2, 🙂 but, could you imagine the uproar from englishlandshire if England voted out and we Kept them in… lol we would be kicked out of the UK just for the backlash from Englishlandshire no getting their way… Again … lol

    29. Taranaich says:

      But still, the ref will happen. Looking for opinions here. Do you think it’s better to vote ‘out’ (- it may make it more likely that there will be indy ref II?) or vote ‘remain’ and risk being saddled in the Union?

      Ever since I got involved in the EU campaign, I’ve become more and more determined to vote In, and would do the same if I lived in England, Wales, or Northern Ireland. Nearly every problem most people cite with the EU are actually problems with individual governments (particularly our own), not the EU in and of itself.

      While a “Scotland in, England Out, rUK Out” vote would certainly be a possible indyref2 trigger, the rest of the UK being outside of the EU will have its own great big heap of problems. At the same time, an In vote across the rUK need not jeopardise indyref2 at all: I have confidence that support for independence will rise even if every nation votes In.

    30. yesindyref2 says:

      @Taranaich ““… you look at the Scottish referendum and we know there were some unfortunate ugly incidents and pleas by the SNP leaders for better behaviour from some of their members…”.

      You missed out the last bit: ” … but this is on a different scale”.

      Talk about Unionist media being selective in its quotes.

    31. Grouse Beater says:

      How foreigners, refugees, and immigrants are treated, and intellectuals keen on equality and liberty, is it that different from how Scots, and Salmond in particular, were treated during the Referendum? Think about it.

      The issue isn’t that many English are fair-minded and tolerant, which they are. The issue is the prevailing mentality that England is a country that rules, others serve, or by their independence, are consequently poor.

      At the moment the tolerant and the equitable are not in the ascendancy. They don’t dominate the prevailing mood.

      If you believe you’re an exceptional nation, that is, above international law, above reproach, and superior to other nations, you see yourself not as a tyranny, or exercising unremitting suppression, but rather an enlightened force for teaching other peoples to be like you. Your think your nation owns all the virtues.

      Racism has many manifestations. Damned for not being English, and damned for not wanting to be British. In our case troublesome ‘whinging’ Scots should be driven back to the Highlands, “where they belong.”

      The answers are right: educate the young, teach tolerance, explore and address the sources of the evil, those goals have achieved a lot.

      But racism is far from eradicated, though not what it was not very long ago when the English king told his Secretary of State for Scotland to “Extirpate the lot”.

      I make these remarks filled with anger and sadness.

    32. oldnat says:

      To be fair, the “ugly incident” Fogarty refers to could be Murphy & squad marching through protesters, or possibly Cameron using the term “effing Tories”. Most likely bit of ugliness, however, was the Vow.

    33. Marco McGinty says:

      “Talk about Unionist media being selective in its quotes.”

      Personally, I would have included the entire quote, but the whole point is that there was no comparison to make between this atrocity, and the Yes campaign, so why mention it?

      A woman has just lost her life, a husband has lost his partner, and two young children will grow up with precious few memories of their mother, yet somehow these hacks manage to bring the SNP and the Yes campaign into the subject.

    34. Betty Boop says:

      I just don’t know what to say about this filthy, degenerate campaign to which we are being subjected. I know what I think and it’s depressing, but, I am at a loss when it comes to putting it into words. The bigotry brought to the fore by self-serving, stupid politicians with their Empire mentality is shown in all its nastiness here and in the cities of France.

      Here, we have an apparently decent human being murdered in the street and the self same promoters of discord, selfishness and hatred are all over the media wringing their hands.

      Just who are terrorists? They’d be the folks who metaphorically hand out the loaded guns and the script to justify mayhem and murder with their constant bleating and “othering” of anyone who doesn’t share their bigoted ideas. Reading about the man “held to be responsible”, just how did he come by the means?

      My sympathies lie with the Cox family and anyone else who suffers sudden and violent loss.

      Yes, we do need to get out of here.

    35. Robert Peffers says:

      @shiregirl says: 16 June, 2016 at 7:16 pm:

      ” … I honestly am not sure. Part of me is thinking what is the point.”

      There is a point, Shiregirl, that the Indyref is a cross-party and cross-class movement. Such movements will always ultimately succeed for, as a very wise person, Victor Hugo, who is often misquoted as saying, “Nothing succeeds like an idea whose time has come”.

      In fact what Victor Hugo actually said was, “All the forces in the world are not so powerful as an idea whose time has come.”

      There is no doubt in my mind that the idea of Scottish Independence has really finally arrived – I’ve been waiting for it coming for nigh on seventy years now. My only remaining ambition is to die in a free and proud independent Scotland.

      “Aiblins ma shrood is noo hingin oan a muckle shoogle caddle”.

      Owersettin intil the Inglis, “Perhaps my shroud is now hanging upon a rather shaky nail”.

    36. Derick fae Yell says:

      Simon Chadwick says:
      16 June, 2016 at 7:31 pm

      “As a committed Yesser and English expat, I am starting to get seriously worried about how England might go after Scottish independence.”

      You are not alone in that. Post Brexit, if it happens – who will be blamed when the EU is not the bogeyman?

    37. Graham H says:

      Too many hacks rushing to judgement re motivations and putting their feet firmly in their mouths to score points.

    38. Tinto Chiel says:

      It’s been a dreadful week. Terrible murders in USA and now the slaying of a compassionate young woman and mother.

      Dog-whistle politics and playing with the dangerous fire of demonising immigrants seem to be reaping a dreadful harvest.

      I’m disgusted with this dreadful referendum and the underlying racism of Farage, Johnston and Gove.

      We must get out of this Union.

      Well said, Taranaich. We need your voice of reason. I wish you would comment more often.

    39. Phronesis says:

      The poster for ‘Leave’ is a visual signifier of a race to the moral low ground deliberately invoking the language of Enoch Powell ‘overwhelmed and swept away if the tide of new immigrants continues to flow’- designed to appeal to the basest of fears.

      Of course there is an alternative narrative pervading UKOK politics- the narrative of Scotland’s (the mythological hero) transformation. It apparently happens in 17 stages.

      1. The Call to Adventure – Hero receives calling to the unknown
      2. Refusal of the Call – Obligations or fear prevent hero from starting the journey
      3. Supernatural Aid – Magical helper appears or becomes known
      4. Crossing the First Threshold – Hero leaves its known world and ventures into the unknown
      5. Belly of the Whale – Final stage of the separation from the known world
      6. The Road of Trials – Hero must pass a series of test to begin the transformation
      7. Meeting with the Goddess/Love – Hero experiences unconditional love
      8. Temptation – Hero face temptation that will distract from ultimate quest
      9. Atonement with the Hero’s Father – Hero must confront the person that holds ultimate power in their life
      10. Peace and Fulfillment Before the Hero’s Return – Hero moves to a state of divine knowledge (usually through some form of death)
      11. The Ultimate Boon – Achievement of goal
      12. Refusal of the Return – Having found bliss and enlightenment in the other world, hero may be reluctant to return
      13. Magic Flight – Sometimes the hero has to escape with the boon
      14. Rescue from Without – Sometimes the hero needs a rescuer
      15. Return – Retain wisdom gained on quest and the hero integrates wisdom in human society by sharing wisdom with the world
      16. Master of Two Worlds – Hero achieves balance between the material and spiritual (inner and outer world)
      17. Freedom to Live – Freedom from fear of death, causing hero to live in the moment and no concern for the future or regrets of the past

      The institution of UKOK is hopelessly stuck at stage 2 and soon to become fossilised in the political landscape. IndyRef 1 got us to stage 10,Indyref 2 will get us to the final stage- Scotland’s ultimate transformative change.

    40. Effijy says:

      My sincere condolences to the family and friends of Jo Cox.

      When I heard this tragic news, I wondered if there might be
      a terrorist connection.
      I felt sure that such an act would see England Exit in an attempt to stop anyone else entering the country.

      The name of the alleged attacker seems to be English, and there are no obvious links to terrorists?

      Result is still in the balance!

    41. Onwards says:

      No mention of the “Britain first” quote on the BBC.
      Maybe they are trying to verify it, or maybe its a time for tributes before politics, but this is going to open up a real shitstorm over the coming days.

      There were 2 witnesses who heard him shout it according to the Independent story, and the MP seems to have been a prominent campaigner in the Remain campaign.

      There are already idiots going on about a ‘false flag’ attack.

    42. Paula Rose says:

      @Taranaich that is one hell of a lot of worthwhile writing you do you lovely man –

    43. yesindyref2 says:

      @Marco McGinty
      I think her comment was stupid, unthinking, crass, out of place, unprofessional, but made to make the point that there was no comparison, that nothing like that happened in the Indy Ref, that this was a terrible incident. Thoughtless and weak journalism, in other words.

    44. Kevin Evans says:

      The media in the UK need to hold there heads in shame at what has happened.

      Project fear has now taken a life. What did they really expect to happen. BASTARDS.

      Image how they poor young kids are feeling tonight. Lost, confused and totally devastated. It’ll only be a matter of time for the media to start praying on they kids to get more juice out of this disaster.


      i said yesterday the themes fiasco made my day. This news has ruined my day.

      As far as vote in or out. If the UK votes out England will never allow Scotland independence and without the EU to support our right to govern ourselves any indyref2 will be declared null and void much like Spain and Catalonia. England’s new power of self worth in leaving the EU fuelled by England’s hate of Scottish scrounges and the Westminster make up of MPs (the 56 got voted down in every amendment of the Scotland bill) and with westminsters power to disband the Scottish Parliament. They will turn Scotland into a waste land.

    45. Rock says:

      Corrupt Westminster politicians (SNP and some others excluded), corrupt media and MI5 are to blame for what happened.

      Scotland must get out of this rotten to the core union as quickly as possible.

      “Democratically” this is unlikely to happen any time soon in my view.

      The establishment are experts at rigging.

    46. Tam Jardine says:

      The appalling behaviour of English fans highlighted is one thing (and indeed something hardly without precedent). Most I am sure are well behaved ordinary folk and a sizeable minority are abhorrent arseholes.

      Far right parties behaving and emulating far right parties is also not unusual. Sections of the media have been playing the same ‘rivers of blood’ card my whole life. It doesn’t shock me.

      The killing of a young labour MP is something else entirely. What a deplorable act- senseless and depraved. What that poor young woman’s family must be going through is beyond my comprehension. I can’t really believe this is where we are right now in the UK in the 21st century.

      Maybe I am alone in my paranoia- I cannot (and I feel ashamed conferring this to text) but worry that we have been expecting action from the UK government in the run up to the vote.

      It is impossible to understate: vast, vested commercial and political interests are at play. The UK government have had people assassinated before. I read quotes of ‘Britain First’ being heard and I cannot help thinking something is wrong here. Tell me I am wrong. Tell me I am paranoid. Tell me Westminster is incapable of murder for political and corporate gain.

      Let us not forget that such considerations have come before human lives in the past.

    47. Tam Jardine says:


      I guess that makes me an idiot- I really hope so

    48. Effijy says:

      RE Today’s Football Match.

      The English Commentators are again off to beat the world after their glorious team beat Wales 2/1 with an injury time winner.

      These games are taken to be on even terms, but can it ever be when a nation like England, with Football their number 1 sport and a population of around 54,000,000, take on one of their colonies who have Rugby as their number 1 sport and a population of only 3,000,000?

      The real winners over there are countries like Wales and Iceland, who have a population similar to Leicester, and N Ireland who are scoring goals and picking up points with Europe’s finest.

    49. Clapper57 says:

      Shelagh Fogarty’s inappropriate comparison and insensitive timing is unacceptable in a civilised society but unfortunately it is the nature of the beast that is the media .

      A young woman is murdered and Fogarty sees this as an opportunity to instigate a contentious and false statement.

      This tragedy is not for the media to generate political controversy and Fogarty had no right to try and gain a political point at a totally inopportune moment.

      Fogarty should own the shame she has inflicted upon herself and one hopes that she herself appreciates the backlash she is now receiving is due to her own making .

      Perhaps if people who work in the media appreciated more the ‘human’ factor in opinions they voice then they would surely refrain from continuously courting controversy and assume some responsibility and accept the consequences of their words .

      Today was about the murder of someone who should not have lost her life , someone who has a family who are now devastated, someone whose friends and colleagues are now both saddened and shocked ,someone whose constituents must also bear the sad loss of their MP and so the ‘human’ factor in this is obvious and there is no need for contrived negative sentiments from someone who must have been aware her remarks were both ill judged and ill timed as well as inaccurate in their pointless comparison.

      Our first instinct as a human being and our thoughts when hearing of this tragedy is total shock and then sadness at the loss of a woman who was , by all accounts, a good person.

      Thoughts with her family and friends, such a waste of life.

    50. Papko says:

      “””“As a committed Yesser and English expat, I am starting to get seriously worried about how England might go after Scottish independence.”

      You are not alone in that. Post Indy, if it happens – who will be blamed when Westminster is not the bogeyman? , who will be “sniffed out next”.””””

      This was a real fear for NO voters during the first ref, that Scotland was going to return to some kind of Red Clyde. as Sheridan and the loony left took control.

    51. Rock says:

      To mention the Scottish referendum in relation to this murder was deliberate and designed to put Scottish independence supporters in a bad light.

      The person who said this cannot be defended. She should be sacked.

    52. Artyhetty says:

      A can or worms has been opened, it was always there, but now, with this unecessary, dangerous referendum, the bigots have been given a license to voice their hatred and now this. The UK, well, it should be said, England is not going to be viewed well in light of what has happened. A very sad day indeed. I wonder if some intending to vote leave might think again, just a thought.


      Just received an email petition, to sign against the UK government trying to ban anyone from having a publicly owned bus service in england. Who needs ttip eh.

    53. Papko says:

      I beg to differ with you REV, the video is innocuous enough , the kids are having fun picking up the coins , the fans are drunk and throwing there money away, its a harmless past time.

      Similar plays out in every Scottish high street at lunchtime, as working class school children, throw their chips at passing seagulls.
      some very naughtily, in the paths of speeding traffic, the seagull swoops for the deep fried morsel and ……splatch .

    54. shiregirl says:


      Seriously? I am asking serious and real questions about the ref – questions that people are banding about at work and at home and you ask if I am a troll.

      Is that how you respond to people who ask questions?

      Sorry – I thought this was a forum for discussion and getting answers which would help decision making – I’m obviously wrong. So sorry I lack political knowledge and also that I thought I would get some answers about such questions here.

      I’d better watch what I say in future – and not dare ask questions.

    55. Tam Jardine says:


      Your comments on post-indy are ridiculous and offensive.

      Your comparison between begging children and seagulls is so offensive it makes me wonder if you are a human. Fuck yourself, do go. *blocked*

    56. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, don’t forget the wedding scramble here in Scotland.

    57. Peter says:

      Frankly , I am disgusted at the level this referendum campaign has sunk to. It would APPEAR that the murderer of Jo Cox was a man with serious mental health issues. It would also APPEAR that he was arguing with another man in the street and the attack took place when she intervened , which if true , would mean she was not a target and there was no political motivation .
      Now let me be absolutely clear before I continue , Britain First are racists of the highest order and I despise everything they stand for. However , within five minutes of the attack , HUNDREDS were on twitter calling it a ‘right wing assassination’ ‘Farage has blood on his hands’ ‘she was killed because she wanted us to remain’ etc etc….with NO evidence. Is this what we(the Indy movement) have become? Judge,jury and executioner? Based on a news report we decide the motive , the people ‘behind it’ and call for them to be ‘hung’?
      I’m very uncomfortable with the reactions of many to this , I expect Britain first /edl etc to behave in such a manner , I expect better of the Indy movement.
      Can we just pause and consider for a moment that the tragic death of Jo Cox had NOTHING to do with politics at all ?

    58. Onwards says:

      @Tam Jardine, Oh I believe the UK government are capable of all sorts of dirty goings on, politically speaking. But no-one is going to murder for them get put away for life unless they are pretty committed.
      The simplest explanation is usually right. If that quote is correct then it’s most likely to be some crazy bigot so worked up with hatred that they don’t even realize they are hurting their own cause.

    59. Tinto Chiel says:

      @ Tam Jardine: I suspect that so-called democratic governments are capable of anything in order to serve their narrow interests but we need to let the dust settle on this awful murder. Whether we’ll ever get to the bottom of this is another story, of course.

      I think we’d all be more paranoid if we really knew what the SS (security services) were really up to, day in, day out.

      For some reason I can’t cut and paste at the moment, but paragraph four of what Grouse Beater said @ 7.45pm seems spot-on to me. It’s really the BBC’s mission statement. And that organisation is our greatest enemy.

      My old cry: oh, how I wish to be foreign.

    60. CmonIndy says:

      Tamworth Jardine no you are not alone in your suspicions.

    61. Macart says:

      Nothing short of grim.

      This is the measure of the hatred and fear generated by thoughtless political narrative and elements within the media UK style. The result of unchecked othering, smear, demonisation and alienation.

      Politics as it is done…

    62. Tam Jardine says:


      “Can we just pause and consider for a moment that the tragic death of Jo Cox had NOTHING to do with politics at all ?”

      I think your comment is directed at me so I will answer it. Your analysis is almost certainly true. I expressed my reaction. No one else on this thread has suggested anything other than that this is the despicable act of a lunatic.

      I try and be honest in everything I write on here and I won’t change. Willie McCrae and Kelly left family too. We on here see the tip of an inverted iceberg and have to guess at the rest of the picture.

    63. yesindyref2 says:

      @Tam Jardine
      If it didn’t cross the mind of some people, many perhaps, even for a few moments, there’d be something wrong with us. And if we didn’t wonder if our Governments were capable of such things, and wonder if this had actually happened, then it probably would.

    64. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Luigi @ 19:06:

      If the UK remains in Europe because of a large Scottish IN vote, in spite of a narrow English OUT vote, there will be hell to pay. Seriously, if the jocks get the blame for this, things could get very nasty.

      So what’s your point exactly? That we should simply knuckle under and be chivvied into voting Leave, or what?

      The whole bl**dy point is to vote differently from England, then enough people in Scotland may finally wake up and realise that they have to abandon this doomed ship of fools. There is maybe even just a squeak of a possibility that the direct consequence could be an independence settlement without a second referendum.

      Throw away that chance and give in to BritNat bullying. Never!

    65. Brian McHugh says:

      Tam Jardine… Cui Bono?

    66. Tam Jardine says:

      Tinto Chiel 

      Absolutely. I cannot believe I even brought it up at all.

    67. Croompenstein says:

      Jo Cox’s maiden speech..


    68. Tam Jardine says:

      Brian McHugh

      Remain. The city of London. Every big business based in the UK. Cameron and Osborne…

    69. Big Jock says:

      The comparison with England first and the Scottish referendum is correct. The part that’s wrong is the group she compares it to. The loonies in George square on the unionist side are capable of violence not the yes side. The out voters and the Indi campaigners have nothing in common. Yes voters are inclusive. Out campaigners are bigoted and exclusive.

      Try and get an English Yoon to understand that is impossible. To them they are both nationalists. But yessers are actually trying to liberate Scotland from British nationalism which is something we abhor.

    70. Neil Ralley says:

      It’s time to make it the Untied Kingdom.

    71. Grouse Beater says:

      Posted before, but if anybody’s looking for a rationale:

    72. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Please, everyone, if you want to be taken seriously, drop this conspiracy theory speculation and wait to see what the facts are.

      One thing is certain, all atrocities such as this latest example are carried out by people with some kind of psychiatric imbalance. By definition. Some are purely self-initiated through serious mental illness and some are “validated” by others who should know better stoking up hatred via extreme political groupings and/or a complaisant media.

      Which this particular example turns out to be remains to be seen.

    73. Tam Jardine says:

      Neil Ralley

      You had me at “It’s time”. Can we meet privately to develop the themes you have raised today?

      Jesus H Christ – I thought my indy zeal was solid as a rock and now I’m having serious doubts.

    74. Tam Jardine says:

      Neil Ralley

      Scratch that last remark- I am drunk and did not read it properly. Maybe use capitals next time

      Yours, respectfully, etc etc

    75. Ghillie says:

      My heart is breaking for that poor young mum. May God rest her soul.

    76. Luigi says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:

      16 June, 2016 at 8:56 pm

      So what’s your point exactly? That we should simply knuckle under and be chivvied into voting Leave, or what?

      Not at all – my point is just be ready for anything – thanks to our wonderful media, this has the potential to get really nasty.

      The whole bl**dy point is to vote differently from England, then enough people in Scotland may finally wake up and realise that they have to abandon this doomed ship of fools. There is maybe even just a squeak of a possibility that the direct consequence could be an independence settlement without a second referendum.

      Throw away that chance and give in to BritNat bullying. Never!

      So you have it all worked out eh! No one is asking you to throw away anything, but if you think you can speculate what is going to happen in the next few weeks, good luck with that one! Forget the opinion polls, the soft NO voters don’t even know themselves how they will react until reality forces the issue. Be flexible and get ready for anything, and I mean anything. 🙂

    77. Croompenstein says:

      SNP to suspend campaigning tomorrow out of respect…

      Some utterly disgraceful comments below the line makes you sad to be human..

    78. Ghillie says:

      Shiregirl, never be afraid to ask questions. You got a fair and considered answer from Heedtracker @ 7.24pm thankgoodness.

      I think everyone is very upset and rattled today.

      I am famliar with your posts. They make good reading. You’re doing fine.

    79. Taranaich says:

      @yesindyref2: You missed out the last bit: ” … but this is on a different scale”.

      Talk about Unionist media being selective in its quotes.

      You’re quite right, I should’ve included the last part: far from repudiating the claim Fogarty made, it proves she does exactly what she says she didn’t. By saying “this is on a different scale,” she’s saying that the difference is one of degree. Not that they are two different things, but that one thing is a different size compared to the other.

      @Tinto Chiel: Well said, Taranaich. We need your voice of reason. I wish you would comment more often.

      Would if I could, Tinto, I love this place and everyone on it. 🙂

      @Paula Rose: @Taranaich that is one hell of a lot of worthwhile writing you do you lovely man –

      Cheers for the plug, I’m really proud of that piece.

    80. Dal Riata says:


      The stink off you is fucking abominable. So, do us all a favour and fuck right off back under the Bridge Over The Flowing Excrement, your normal place of abode.

    81. Valerie says:

      I don’t think the Fogarty thing can be explained away. A journalist that is so unprofessional, that a shooting she knows nothing about, should immediately be compared to Scotland’s referendum?

      If she was trying to backpeddle by saying they were nothing alike, then why say it? Why not wait and write a piece that compares conduct of two referenda?

      Alex Massie has written a piece which is pretty nasty, basically blaming Leave and Farage. Written around 6pm???? Is that showing judgement? Is that click bait? Is it fanning flames? The Spectator came out for Leave yesterday.

      Evening Times now reporting the shooter was born in Kilmarnock. However, local Yorkshire folks are saying he has lived there at least 30 years and had done a lot of work in their gardens.

      What a shitty world.

    82. Tam Jardine says:


      If you wonder ‘what is the point’ it is this. If we vote Remain which we will and England votes leave we are in the superhighway to independence with new allies in the EU, in business and the pro EU no voters on board.

      We are not going to vote leave in Scotland.

      So that leaves two possibilities. A remain vote in Scotland pulling the rest of the UK back into the EU which is a death sentence for the union albeit much messier.

      And a narrow remain vote in rUK which will almost certainly lead to a second EU referendum.

      The first option is quicker, cleaner and easier for everyone concerned.

      We need to be independent: option 1 should be UDI or snap referendum. option 2 involves Boris as PM, and option 3 leaves us with Cameron or Osborne and decades of instability.

    83. dramfineday says:

      1) Heartfelt commiserations to the Cox family for their devastating loss. If we had a way to take away the hurt and grief we would do it.

      2) What Betty Boop said. (Best regards Betty from the Drams).

    84. arthur thomson says:

      My heart is with the children, husbend and other family of Jo Cox. They have to waken tomorrow to the terrible finality of the death of their loved one. Such sadness for a whole lifetime.

    85. Valerie says:


      Quite apart from the fact of voting Remain to advance our cause, it’s good logic to vote Remain.

      Scotland gains more than is paid in at the moment. Scotland is in a strategically strong position to be a bigger player in the EU, by virtue of our seas and land mass.

      We currently sell wind power to Europe, as well as other stuff!

    86. arthur thomson says:

      Shelagh Fogarty and apologists for her should be utterly ashamed. She either speaks from a point of utter ignorance or malice. I genuinely hope it is ignorance. To be deliberately malicious in these circumstances would reflect very badly on her.

    87. yesindyref2 says:

      It wasn’t like you which is why I pulled you up on it. I would note she mentioned the SNP who asked supporters not to be abusive, but failed to mention Better Together who didn’t acknoeledge the abuse of their supporters, a meme of just about all the media. But Truth is in the eye of the beholder, and what was behind her remark will be seen differently by different people. What she meant by it only she knows.

      It is inevitable comparisons will be made between the two referendums, we, well, I anyway, have been doing it all the time with “Project Fear 2”. There were extreme people on both sides in the Indy Ref, but this today was, indeed, on a different scale.

      I endorse Ghillie’s comment, today has upset a lot of people. That someone so genuine, so committed, could be shot dead by a lunatic is beyond belief, and actually brought tears to my eyes, quite an unusual event these cynical days.

    88. Valerie says:

      There are some very good, readable articles on Business for Scotland.

      Also, the SG site gives some good short facts.

    89. Grouse Beater says:

      BBC’s Laura Kuenssberg (Caine Mountain) talking absolute rubbish on BBC News. Standard of media journalism just keeps plummeting.

    90. Tattie-boggle says:

      I really cant tell anymore if im seeing something thats there or not, anymore but WTF BBC Scotland

    91. Proud Cybernat says:

      Stop the world…

    92. Proud Cybernat says:

      We’re a democracy. The precedent has been set. Independence MUST be voted for by a majority of the people of Scotland. UDI will only take us down the road to civil war–real Ulsterisation of Scotland. To coin a phrase–NO Thanks. I am a democrat and I (and I’m sure I’m not alone) would never support such a proposition.

    93. Inverclyder says:

      Seems to be an influx of trolls lately from Troll Land. Perhaps they’ve just been let out for the EU vote.

      Remember folks. Don’t feed them as it only encourages them.

    94. heedtracker says:

      Great speech last week for graduates at Stamford Uni, USA, faced with the same hard core conservative nightmare that is Trump, another racist proto fascist who backs the UKOK Bojo, Farage racist tory Brexiteering. Tolerance, progressive liberal democracy and guts.

      Vote Remain.

    95. Robert Peffers says:

      Jeremy Clarkson tells David Cameron, “My gut tells me I feel European.” It’s a good job his gut tells him such things as his brain is addled.

      Michael Gove says, “We need to control the numbers.” Unfortunately he is not talking about the Austerity Measures but about the numbers of immigrants.

      Nothing like getting your priorities right – and that is nothing like getting your priorities right.

      Prof Curtice says there is now no favourite for the EU referendum now. He also says there is a, “Serious possibility we will vote to leave”.

      And that is the news where they are.

    96. Taranaich says:

      It wasn’t like you which is why I pulled you up on it. I would note she mentioned the SNP who asked supporters not to be abusive, but failed to mention Better Together who didn’t acknoeledge the abuse of their supporters, a meme of just about all the media. But Truth is in the eye of the beholder, and what was behind her remark will be seen differently by different people. What she meant by it only she knows.

      I initially left it out because I didn’t think it relevant to the point, which was that she directly compared (she’s technically correct in that she didn’t “equate” them, as in treat them as identical/equal) SNP supporter activities to this murder. But in retrospect, I think you were quite correct to point it out.

    97. Simon Curran says:

      Certainly down south the media seemed to be equating the Independence campaign with nastiness and anti-English racism. It was highly selective in its reporting both during and after the campaign. To my mind it was a very deliberate tactic. Whether journalists like Foghaty simple regurgitate what they think are facts or make them up I don’t know but those comments of hers are grossly unprofessional, she is either completely misinformed or is deliberately spinning what happened, either way she comes out of it poorly. I notice she doesn’t comment on unionist violence or the Labour politician who is still due in court for allegedly assaulting a kid.

    98. ewen says:

      I am so glad I’m not subjected to this crap. I am also apprehensive that Farage and a bunch of Engerlund knuckle draggers could vote away my EU citizenship.

      As I have lived outwith the UK for 21 years, I don’t get a vote. Can’t England just leave and Scotland can stay. Denmark is in the EU but the Faroes and Greenland aren’t.

      England can eff off and leave the rest of us in. They can then live in their little 1950s right wi g paradise and lea e the rest of us in the real world.

    99. muttley79 says:

      What an horrendous day in the political world. I was just looking at Lobster magazine twitter, and say this tweet:

      I have no idea if it is accurate and true.

    100. Thepnr says:

      We have all lost someone close to us and I feel for Jo Cox’s family tonight.

      One thing I do know for certain is that we know nothing. Let’s not speculate either, that’s not our business.

      Most of all I hope we all can be respectful.

    101. Onwards says:

      I remember being worried that someone could attack Salmond or Sturgeon during the Scottish referendum campaign. There were plenty of times they were just walking about the street or in town halls with little obvious security.

      And there was no doubt to me which side had the most nutters when it came to the potential for the bigoted, potentially violent, type of nationalism. If Scotland had gained independence that day, the scenes seen in George Square could have been far worse.
      Even though the YES side made a point of running a positive democracy based campaign where nations in Britain would work together afterwards within a common currency zone and within Europe.

      Yes we don’t know all the facts, but enough of a picture seems to be emerging that we can put 2 and 2 together. The guy was obviously mentally unstable, but is it really so hard to think that the anti-immigrant hysteria whipped up every day by the likes of the Daily Express could have no effect on such people?

    102. Sunniva says:

      I just keep thinking about how Jo Cox must have got up early this morning and hugged her two wee bairns on her houseboat on the Thames, brushed their hair and made their breakfast and then got cheerfully on her train to meet her constituents in Batley, only for her to be dead by lunchtime. So cruel. Why her? Such a lovely decent hard working woman, gone because of some crazy with a gun and a grudge. Heartbreaking, absolutely heartbreaking.

    103. Iain More says:

      Well the two things that struck me about todays brutal occurrence was who supplied him with the gun and who pressed his buttons? Somebody did!

    104. Papko says:

      “England can eff off and leave the rest of us in. They can then live in their little 1950s right wi g paradise and lea e the rest of us in the real world.”

      I see you are more a civic kind of nationalist , but even if there is a Brexit vote in England its likely to be 55-45 say . Its still sum 45% of English voters want to stay in .
      And we already know that some 30% of SNP voters want out .

      So Whats to happen to the English in England that want to stay and the Scots in Scotland that want out .

      I foresee that Smart phones are taking over our lives and there will soon be an app,that tweaks your “govt” , or the way you wish to be governed to your phone.
      Since all commerce , wages paid , shopping spent is all done on a phone and cash will soon be extinct , then likewise taxation can fixed so that you pay tax based on what you prefer (within reason), and you have no choice as all economic activity will be saved on your phone.

      So you want your tax to go on social progressive polices alleviating poverty at home or abroad , you make the choice , like wise you don’t and you want to keep more or your money say. and beggar the rest .

      well you can as well , but you cant pretend to vote for social justice etc and not chip in so to speak.

      Just as the internet transformed human interaction, in 20 years time , your every move will be monitored by phone.

    105. Brian McHugh says:

      Almost a carbon copy of Anna Lindh murder…

    106. Smallaxe says:

      My thoughts and heart are full of sorrow tonight for this innocent young lady and her family and also disgust for anyone who would use this tragic incident to score political points.

    107. ScottshPsyche says:

      @Onwards 11.23pm

      I remember after that poll came out thinking if Yes keeps increasing what will they do? I remember the unease as the rhetoric increased and the No side increased in ugliness.

      That feeling came back this week. I posted saying I felt it was all coming back to roost – the ramping up of fear by MSM.

      A Pandora’s box of hate recycled by CapX et al.

      It will be interesting to see the usual suspects in the Mail and Scotsman have any insight at all. Going by Massie’s contribution it seems unlikely.

      I didn’t know much of Jo Cox but it is heart sore to think of her family grieving tonight.

    108. Barbara McKenzie says:

      Voting for the EU is a vote for EU sanctions, that are approved against any country that is not a Western ally (China, Iran, Russia, Syria etc), and never against countries that are singularly oppressive and sponsor terrorism (Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Israel, Turkey) but are Western allies.

    109. Dr Jim says:

      I was watching Irish TV earlier and I wonder how many English “Leavers” would be happy to know that 600.000 Irish Republicans living in England have been mobilised to vote remain

      You could say a taste of their own medicine there but for the fact if Scotland gets another referendum the resident population of Irish republicans in Scotland are going to be mobilised to vote NO to that it seems

      Including the Tourist NO voters, the Settler NO voters and the Mental Ruth Davidson Mob if this is right

      I’m an Ethnic minority in the country I was born in and my country’s rigged against me making MY vote hardly worth shit

      I’m Scotshitting powerless

    110. Lynne says:

      @Iain More
      who supplied him with the gun and who pressed his buttons?

      Pretty convincing answer here:

      Sad day.

    111. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dr Jim said:

      …if Scotland gets another referendum the resident population of Irish republicans in Scotland are going to be mobilised to vote NO

      Sounds like yet another category of “no” voters to join the list of infamy! (You know, “infamy, infamy, they’ve all got it in fa me!”)

      I just don’t believe this one myself. I’m leery of all broad-brush generalisations anyway, but if anything I think those folk are more likely to have been “yes” voters. Some may possibly have opted for “no” because at the time they were still faithful Labourites and not because of their origins.

      In the event of a second referendum, who knows where all the previously Labour “noes” will go? Especially if there’s a Brexit.

      Personally I’m in favour of a 16-year full-time residence requirement (same as the legal voting age) for indyref2, irrespective of voters’ origin. Excludes the “carpetbaggers” while recognising the contribution and committment of all stayers.

    112. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland
      During the Ref for some odd reason I thought my wife wanted Scotland to remain in the UK, and I mentioned it once to her. She looked at me as though I was mad and said: “I’m Irish”.

    113. Petra says:

      England wants out of the EU, in the main it would seem, because THEIR Government has created a situation that they can no longer control. Long lines of ‘threatening’ refugees seeking, eh … just a refuge as the name implies. A situation that THEY, Westminster, set in motion.

      The English people should have been demonstrating in their millions when Westminster decided to invade Iraq, bomb Libya and more so more recently, and with a great deal of hindsight, decided to decimate Syria with the sole purpose of stealing their resources …. in turn destabilising these countries, enraging Millions of Muslims, leaving a void for Daesh to fill and creating a mass exodus of people fleeing the hell that we (Westminster) have created.

      Why didn’t they demonstrate? Apathy …. or ignorance through being duped by totally corrupt politicians, in league with arms lobbyists, and a Media prepared to back them up with their lies, such as the bl**dy BBC with their vice-Chairman Sir Roger Carr, Chairman of BAE Systems Defence Company, holding court. A man accused of arming dictatorships right across the globe. Lining his own pocket at our, and more so the rest of the planets, expense. Get real England. Time to see the light … or maybe not …. too late.

      Over the last few years (or many) there has been a concerted effort made, by Westminster politicians, civil servants and the media, to brainwash people in the UK in an attempt to divide (and conquer) Scotland and England (Scots a financial liability …. Scots who hate the English backed up by people like JKR); a drip, drip, drip of stirring up racist feelings in this country against Eastern Europeans; of shaping peoples beliefs which to my mind has encouraged dissention and violence and well sad, so very sad, to say it looks as though it has backfired on them and the chickens are coming home to roost. There is no doubt that this Government, along with other corrupt parliamentarians, have created another situation that will be totally outwith their control to deal with now … unless they call in the Army to patrol the streets, especially post EU Referendum.

      The leaders in this country such as Blair and Cameron have committed the most heinous of crimes against humanity and should be standing in the Hague, but no they’re standing (or flying high) free as birds in the UK and making a load of dough, pontificating about remaining in a Europe that they’ve now totally destabilised. Maybe even totally destroyed.

      How must the MANY MILLIONS of people in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria feel about this? Nobody cares, they don’t count, they don’t get a minutes silence every time 50 or so of their people …. MANY children and babies …. are blown to smithereens, on a DAILY basis, such as has happened in Paris or Orlando. This is the basis, formation, of Daesh, imo.

      More than anything one of the saddest things about all of this, that I have come across in travelling around England, is that many ‘Leave’ voters in England think that when we leave the EU they’ll get rid of the Muslims who live in their vicinity. EU migrants, such as Polish people, aren’t of the greatest concern for them at all. Just scapegoated, named constantly by the media, by Westminster because they don’t have the guts…. integrity to deal with the main concerning issue. In turn the ‘electorate’ don’t seem to realise that MANY of the Muslims they are concerned about are Commonwealth citizens …. in the main not from the EU and are here to stay. Ignorance is bliss? Or not? If there is a Brexit give it some time and wait for the sh*t to hit the fan.


      @ Taranaich says at 10:41 pm ….

      Anyone dragging the SNP (naming them) into this fray / situation is a propagandist. End of.


      @ Doug Daniel says at 7:37 pm …. ”This is what happens when the media and politicians pander to and promote racism and the politics of hate……”

      Great post Doug. Spot on.


      ‘Remembering Jo Cox MP: Her maiden speech.’ Just a year ago. RIP Jo.

    114. Gribble says:

      @ Barbara McKenzie at 1:12 am:

      I don’t disagree with that analysis, but voting leave will make any difference to that how? You think the UK Government is more constrained by moral or ethical considerations? The evidence would suggest otherwise, irrespective of which party has been in power.

    115. A. Graham says:

      “Luigi says:
      16 June, 2016 at 7:06 pm
      If the UK remains in Europe because of a large Scottish IN vote, in spite of a narrow English OUT vote, there will be hell to pay. Seriously, if the jocks get the blame for this, things could get very nasty.

      Careful what you wish for.”

      We wish for democracy.

    116. Anne Lawrie says:

      I read on another thread that the man in custody for Jo Cox’s murder was born in Scotland. Wonder how long it will take the MSM to link that to SNP?

    117. mealer says:

      Yesindyref2 3.24
      I’m thinking “if he’d done a basic background check he’d know his wife was Irish”.

    118. Only a week to go. Farage’s evil poster recalls the Tories’ ‘Labour’s Not Working’ poster depicting a queue of unemployed citizens outside the Employment Office.
      However this is different. It is appealing to the lowest of the low, and Farage, Gove, IDS, and BoJo know what they are doing.
      It is recorded that Scotland has ‘taken’ 400,000 English economic migrants, many from the SE of that country, which is fast developing into the Holy London Empire.
      I wonder what the reaction would have been if our Indyref campaign had produced a poster depicting English ‘refugees’ heading North on the M6/A1, with the ‘Breaking Point’ caption? Magnus Gardham and David Torrance would have had a field day. They’d never have been off the BBC condemning the BAD SNP racists. (What’s that you say? They’re never off the BBC anyhoo?)
      You may recall the stooshie over the ‘colonists’ and ‘settlers’ remarks by Alasdair Gray during Project Fear.
      England is in serious trouble.
      I fear that they will vote Leave, in such numbers that the Scotland, N Ireland, and Wales votes, will have little impact either way.
      God help us all if Boris, Nigel, Gove, IDS, aided and abetted by WATP Prof Two Jobs Tompkins, The Queen’s Eleven Murdo Fraser, Bronco Ruth, and Fluffy, nasty little Right Wing xenophobes that they are, take over.
      Scotland will suffer; if we stand by and do nothing, that is.
      2016 has been a shitty year so far.

    119. Ken500 says:

      There are 1.5Million unemployed. 3/4Million claimants. Where are the migrants taking jobs or claiming benefits?

      Is one person’s death worth a Referendum?

    120. Dr Jim says:

      @Robert j Sutherland

      True Robert,

      Irish TV covered the story from Canary Warf where various organisations were meeting for a big event to strategise and co-ordinate the plan
      Discussions were had on borders with the North or not and what was in the interests of the Republic with guest speakers and everything

      Which from their point of view you have to say they’re taking care of themselves but from the other side it does bring into question because Scotland is such a small Nation a few thousand votes here or there becomes important
      Strangely enough I did think Irish Republicans would have been in favour of Scottish Independence but these were business people and who can tell what motivates folk to do things

      I suppose if there were a complaint to make it might be folk influencing a country’s future out of financial self interest and not from concern around the indigenous population of that place

      A bit like the Americans did to the natives or the same sort of thing in Australia
      Still, maybe all the folk who believe it’s their right to affect another Nations future as long as it makes them money can apologise 200 years later and it’ll all be fine

      Oops! Still waiting for the English apology after 300 years
      Tut Tut They keep saying it’s all been a great success though

      I must be grumpy this morning, I’m off for a walk

    121. Breeks says:

      I dunno. Maybe we should have a bit of faith in old England.

      I remember thinking when the Task Force came back from the Falklands, there was such a frenzy of flag waving dilerium that I remember thinking this must be how the likes of Hitler came to power, on a wave of collective euphoria which dulled peoples sensibilities and swept aside all questions and criticism. But England stepped back from the brink, and pretty soon Thatcher’s roll in setting up the Falklands war was under close inspection.

      England gets there in the end, and hopefully there isn’t more damage done than she can endure or recover from in the meantime. Its a bit like watching a friend losing their marbles or having themselves a wee breakdown. You want to help, but its their own demons they’re fighting.

      But I have faith. If you shove politics, priviledge, and propaganda to one side, there are a lot of good people down there. They live under the same BBC jackboot we do. It’s not an affliction that’s easily diagnosed or treated. If anyone knows that it’s us, right?

      For all that, unless you lack the faculties, you still must feel the quiet tremour of the boundary trench currently opening up right along our common Border. This one’s not down to Baldrick and Time Team, this is the line in people’s heads where England stops and Scotland starts. Its been a bit obscure at times, but after YES, and now with Britnat Brexit, well, the lines seem clearer than they’ve been in a long time. When all this uncomfortable madness and unseemly outpouring of British emotion subsides, whatever happens next, that trench is going to seem wider than ever.

    122. starlaw says:

      Dr Jim
      I was in Ireland all last week, and never heard Brexit mentioned, not even once not on news progs. and not in pubs, and as for Mobilization .. you sound like Daily Mail

    123. IAB says:

      Let us be free of this.

    124. John Thomson says:

      Can Nicola Sturgeon not simply come out and promise that if Scotland is taken out of the EU against the majority of her peopl then she will declare independence and hold a second independence referrendum whilst the rest of the UK falls apart.

      This needs to happen now so that as a nation we know how to vote, l will be voting to remain on the understanding that a declaration of independence will be called by all MPs and MSPs led by Nicola Sturgeon on the morning of the 24th June 2016.

      We are all lost if this does not happen, particulary in light of recent events.

    125. Bob Mack says:

      Those people in public service endure many dangers. I once Had a client who told me that he and another young man were walking through Glasgow when they saw the Psychiatrist who had treated them initially on their admission to Mental Health Services. They followed him for about a mile as he walked,devising a plan to” get even.”

      As they approached the Clyde suspension bridge,they decide to throw him over the side. Their plan was only thwarted because of the number of policemen who were in the vicinity after leaving tthe nearby Sherrif Court. Make no mistake.They would have done it.

      Anger,resentment,illness, all fuelled by politicians and a media reinforcing and justifying your hatred can be a very powerful mechanism to justify your actions.

      I hope lessons have been learned. The public know who has a hand in this madness ,and who to point the finger at. I hope the Establishment has just as clear a vision.

      The politics of hate has only one outcome. People will hate too.

      This young woman’s death reinforces my desire to obtain our freedom from a country which uses all the above to maintain and preserve its control.

    126. heedtracker says:

      Lunatics have taken over the asylum. How to get from this

      To this

      UK news Opinion
      The mood is ugly, and an MP is dead
      Polly Toynbee
      Polly Toynbee

      It’s wrong to view the killing of Jo Cox in isolation. Hate has been whipped up against the political class”

    127. Brian Powell says:


      Maybe the Southern Poverty Law Centre in its HateWatch study should be looking at British newspapers, particularly the Daily Mail. It’s a prime source of hate creation.

    128. Juteman says:


      Apologies for calling you a troll. Of course folk can vote leave if they want to, but I just can’t see how that helps further the cause of Scottish independence.

    129. sinky says:

      The very valid points above should be given a wider airing in press and TV.

      Jo Cox senseless murder being discussed on BBC Radio Scotland Morning Call at 9 a.m.
      Call 0500 92 95 00. Text 80295.
      Email morningcallscotland [at] bbc [dot] co [dot] uk

    130. Capella says:

      @ Petra
      completely agree with your analysis of the root cause of the current hate-fest. And it appears that “the West” is only intent in ratcheting up the violence.

      But remember there were millions who marched against the Iraq war. The politicians ignored them. They ignored the UN. They ignored Hans Blix. Whose interests do they serve?

    131. Dr Jim says:


      Don’t be a dumpling, I’m reporting a TV program for God sake
      See this Faux outrage at nothing, it’s really tedious and as most regular folk on WOS know perfectly well I’m half bloody English so don’t Daily Mail at me with your racism shit

    132. Almannysbunnet says:

      The media and British nationalist politicians, under various guises, pander to xenophobia and racism. They are not blameless in the shameful death of Jo Cox.

      If you paddle about in the toxic stew of racism you will stir up the worst of human beings. If I was a mainland European I’d gladly pay for the “Great” Britain to be towed off into the Atlantic and sunk.
      Today they wring their hands and shed crocodile tears for Jo and her family, tomorrow it will be back to the business of hating. Britnats disgust me.

    133. Tinto Chiel says:

      “During the Ref for some odd reason I thought my wife wanted Scotland to remain in the UK, and I mentioned it once to her. She looked at me as though I was mad and said: “I’m Irish””

      But sadly it ain’t always the case, yesindyref2. My daughter knew an Irish couple who had got their degrees here (without fees) and set up their professional paractice in the Glasgow area. Both voted no, like many of the middle-class, presumably because they were scared of change and possible risk to their relatively wealthy lifestyle.

      Next time, we have to have the arguments to persuade these people. Some people are beyond rational reach, unfortunately, and we’ve all met them.

      The article heed tracker supplied by Polly Toynbee was actually good but I can’t forget her ill-informed anti-SNP tosh during the referendum: nuclear grade Grauniad bile. So much lofty pontification, so little actual knowledge of Scotland.

      Hoping we all have a better day today and something optimistic happens.

    134. Famous15 says:

      Broken hearted at the death of Jo Cox.

      Disgusted at the queue of Labour MP’s validateing their petty hurts. Ian Murray a sticker on your surgery office is not death.Anne Begg being called a fascist for being photographed with a person I am amazed she was unaware WAS a fascist is nothing compared with bein murdered etc etc sad sad

    135. Capella says:

      @ heedtracker
      Interesting Greenpeace article. But when it says “English” quotas does it mean “British” or does it only apply to England. Does anyone know?

      “Greenpeace launched the campaign ‘Our net gain’ in November last year with the shocking statistic that nearly half of the English quota is used by foreign industrial fishing corporations. While a meagre six per cent is given to local, low impact fishermen who fish sustainably and directly contribute to local economies.”

    136. Dr Jim says:

      And todays winner is…Anne Begg

      During the Scottish referendum “a website” published a picture of me with a member of the National front and I had no idea who he was, she said,

      Then went on to complain about the terrible abuse she suffered as a result of it and wants something done about the internet

      It’s all going to get silly by the end of the day

    137. Since the murder of Jo Cox there has been a concerted effort by politicians, for example and the left-liberal media to imply that the killing is linked to the leave side’s addressing of the immigration question. This is contemptible but par for the course with the politically correct.

      The MP was only attacked after she intervened in a dispute between the killer and another man, This suggests that the killer never intended to kill the MP before she intervened.

      The claim that the killer shouted “Britain First” is, according to media reports, based on only one witness, Graeme Howard. This is more than a little odd as a number of people were within earshot. Britain First have a video clip of an eye witness to the killing on video saying that he never heard a shout of Britain First – see . However, the clip does not make it clear whether this is Howard.

    138. crazycat says:

      This article by John Harris is interesting – though not exactly cheering.

      It only mentions Scotland in passing, but is still relevant, I think.

    139. Dr Jim says:

      @Tinto Chiel
      My sister, the eldest in the family was born in England but me and my brothers were all born and brought up in Glasgow but one brother joined the British army for 9 years
      When he came out he married and moved down south to Oxford did very well for 30 years, but when the referendum came up he went into a fury about the rest of us voting YES and complained he didn’t have a vote and if he could wangle it he would come back to Scotland just to vote NO and then go back again

      Some folk at the time suggested Scots worldwide should have had the vote and it might have been different, given my experience with my brother maybe not

      It’s funny though if you asked anybody anywhere they would say bombing people into submission’s a really bad thing
      But is voting people into submission by weight of numbers OK

      I’m just glad I’m not a politician with the job of having to sort these things out

    140. Andrew McLean says:

      I am still shocked at the mindless murder, but was heartened by Ian Murray’s statements this morning on Good morning Scotland, and his acceptance that social media stokes hatred and the deranged, and I look forward to the ending of the tacit approval of hate preachers.

      For too long have the SNP remained silent whilst the vilest and misogynistic terms have been used against our First Minister and MP’s and MSPs, the Scottish press need to take stock, recently I wrote to the CEO of Johnston press complaining about the level of debate in his newspaper, I make no definition between his publishing the newspaper and the publishing of third party comment. I didn’t receive a reply.

      I also have been heartened by wingers heartfelt shock and sadness at this horrific murder, and would ask anyone to take notice of the compassion shown on this site, and the juxtaposition of how Independent minded people are portrayed by the main stream press and minor celebrities, vile cybernats, really? whilst we have the likes of a grown man, darling of the press, anonymous blogger and friend of the glitterati and good, who’s vile comments on a young MP were laughed at by them, as I said tacit approval, I am not mentioning the nonentity by his pathetic pseudo name or his litigious friends.

      I wasn’t going to comment so soon, as decorum dictates, but some may try guilt by association as was shown on LBC. BUT we know who threatened to militarise Scotland in the event of a Yes vote, and that was no lone gunman but a terrorist organisation.
      As I said Tacit Approval.

    141. crazycat says:

      @ Capella

      They mean English.

      They say

      ….which holds 23% of the English quota (about 6% of the entire fishing quota for the UK)

      in this description of their campaign:

    142. galamcennalath says:

      Tinto Chiel says:

      “Next time, we have to have the arguments to persuade these people.”

      Indeed. We need to chip chip away at all the reasons why people voted NO. Clearly many of them simply didn’t get the vision of what Scotland could be and how it could a better place for all.

      IMO many were scared by the vision of a Workers Socialist Republic of Scotland. The colonial media knew this and gave far too much exposure to the fringe left. They will do the same again. The recent election showed how much backing they actually have. Yes, a more socially democratic Scotland than the UK could ever be, but not Cuba without the sun and palm trees. We just want to be a mainstream Northern European country!

      Talking of Northern European, it would also be a game changer if the intention was made clear to have iScotland’s state pension in line with best European ones. I am not beyond simply bribing wavering sections of society.

      Surveys show that both Yes and No voters put the NHS as a priority. Clearly some understood where the real risks lie, others didn’t. Pushing the NHS as safe and expanding under Indy, but being pressured within the Union, should be a focus. And to stop calling it the NHS would help!

    143. Bob Mack says:

      @Robert Henderson,

      The “other” man involved was a 77 year old man who was injured trying to protect the MP. He was taken to hospital.

      The guy who attacked the MP did so with acute ferocity. She was the target. He shot her three times, .kicked her,stabbed her whilst shouting at her. Not everybody heard.They were hiding.

      All the facts will eventually out,but there can be no disputing that he was after the MP

    144. Patrick Roden says:

      I wonder how the Unionist establishment in Scotland feel today about Margaret Currans comment that if Alex Salmond was to be killed by being run over by a bus, she (Margaret Curran) wouldn’t want to know who the driver was.

      So if anyone want’s to kill Alex, the Labour Party would turn a blind eye, eh Margaret?

      Or what do the now think about Johann Lamont describing people in Scotland who are Yes voters as a ‘Virus’

      Just the kind of language the Nazis used about the Jews to justify killing them, eh Johann?

      How about the description of Nicola as the most dangerous woman in the UK?

      I’m sure wingers could add a few more, but make no mistake about it, it has been Labour the MSM and the Britnat establishment who have been happy to foster the poisonous environment, in which people who already have their minds poisoned with white supremacy will be tipped over the edge.

      There’s not one shred of doubt in my mind that Labour and Scotland’s MSM, were hoping to tip some British Protestant Supremist over the edge during our referendum, in order to create a culture of fear within the population.

      This fear would, they hoped, cause the fragile among us to worry that a Yes vote would result in a violent backlash from these britnats that would sink Scotland into some sort of civil war.

      Labour/MSM hold your head in shame you disgusting cretins.

    145. Breeks says:

      Sorry, I don’t know how to do the archive thing with newspapers, but the Guardian has a decent article by Martin Kettle about the roll of the press muscling in on democracy. “The EU referendum is a battle of the press versus democracy”.

      It would be a great article if it wasn’t for mind bending screaming hypocrisy of appearing in the Guardian rag sheet which sold out its integrity to manipulate the narrative of Scotland’s Independence referendum.

      Congratulations Mr Kettle. As an example of a withering lack of self awareness, you raise some interesting questions. As an example of unhinged frothing at the mouth hypocrisy, your article and the Guardian generally is in a remedial class of its own.

    146. Dr Jim says:

      @Patrick Roden

      Can’t dissagree with that and it’s a shame

    147. Valerie says:

      If you are on Twitter, do thank your MP with #ThankYourMP, it’s starting to trend.

      I also shared the story thanking the two unarmed cops who ran towards an armed man, and overpowered him. The elderly man was a hero too.

      At these times, we need to remember there are good people too.

      Michael Crick of Channel 4 rightly tweeted, there will be lots of talk from politicians of behaving differently and with respect, and that will last for 6 months.

      There is an issue about the rhetoric of hate, creating the right conditions for a powder keg, for that minority that might act, whatever their reasons.

      Pubic servants have always been targeted. I was threatened on the phone by a member of the public ‘ ill be up there with my gun’. This was about 15 years ago! The police were very supportive.

    148. Macart says:

      Yeah, its quite amazing watching politicians and the media race to condemn such an appalling act. Those who create a narrative and those who promote a narrative.

      When you peddle a lie, or a smear. When you demonise and alienate. When you promote fear, uncertainty, doubt, suspicion. There are always consequences.

      How many times have we heard a politician call their trade ‘a game’? They play one demographic off against another for personal and political gain without thought for the pain they cause or the opinions they influence. ‘That’s politics’, another throwaway line or ‘that’s just how its done’.

      I doubt one of them lose sleep over their actions. Their only concern being what damage they may do to their career, their campaign or their party, not those whose lives their ‘tactics’ touch.

      Just sick of the whole circus this morning.

    149. Capella says:

      @ crazycat – thanks for the link. That quote does seem to say that they mean English quotas. There is still the usual confusion about Britain, England and UK even in that one short sentence:

      “A perfect example of what’s gone wrong lies with the giant vessel Cornelis Vrolijk, Britain’s most prolific fishing vessel, which holds 23% of the English quota (about 6% of the entire fishing quota for the UK).”

      Can the Cornelis be Britain’s most prolific vessel if it only holds 6% of the UK quota?

    150. crazycat says:

      @ Capella

      Can the Cornelis be Britain’s most prolific vessel if it only holds 6% of the UK quota?

      I suppose it (she?*) could, if there is no other single vessel catching more.

      (* I’ve always been amused by ships with clearly male names being “she”.)

    151. galamcennalath says:


      Just googled Cornelis Vrolijk and there are a number of related stories about how a few companies hold most of the English fish quotas.

      It looks like tabloid journalism where they quote the figures as a percentage of the English quotas to make the numbers look big!

    152. Greannach says:

      Sky News: What’s happening to Oscar Pistorius today?

    153. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Talking of Northern European, it would also be a game changer if the intention was made clear to have iScotland’s state pension in line with best European ones. I am not beyond simply bribing wavering sections of society.”

      Agree pensions are a key element. Most of the the elderly I knew were genuinely worried by what we knew were the lies of the Britnats but they seemed unaware how poor their pensions were relative to most EU countries. Pathetic really how poorly the state looks after them, but poor old people are vulnerable to such scares.

      It’s not bribery, galamcennalath, it’s enlightened self interest 😉 . By the way, your name auto-corrects to gala venality when I type!

      Dr Jim, my very brother, who lived in Kent, would have come back up to vote no, despite last living here in 1971, if he could have managed it. He needn’t have worried, all his stay-at-home pals I knew were No. They still lived in the Dambusters/Festival of Britain/Sturdy-Scots-stokers-in-the-hold world of the 50s, but magnificent 80/90 minute patriots depending on the sport.


    154. Hugh Barclay says:

      I remember in 2013-4 I was sitting in Queen St Station waiting for the last train on a Friday night, Chap appears in front of me just to the left and he was saying “Go home, you’re not wanted here, go home”.
      (This was the same week Nicola Sturgeon criticised the UK Gov for putting vans on the street with the go home illegal immigrants message on them)

      I looked up and the Fuckwit standing in front of me was saying this to the big black African looking chap sitting beside me.
      At this point I stood up and told him in no uncertain words to take a hike, he told me I didn’t know who I was messing with as he and his mates are from Easterhouse.

      Next the train came in and wee all jumped on, I went to find the big chap and told him to ignore arseholes like him, I then realised I had left my carrier bag on the platform with my brandy and stuff in there :-0 then I had to get off at the same stop as the idiots.

      I don’t normally put myself in danger but when it comes to unfairness like that, a bunch of scum arseholes against 1 innocent person I can’t help myself.

      The point I’m making here though is Nicola Sturgeon was absolutely correct in calling out the UK Gov as it could lead to the very thing I witnessed myself.

      Why is it only Union Jack waving fuckwits who behave in this way one may ask? Well if the UK Gov put vans on the street with that kinda message to me it’s not a surprise.

    155. heedtracker says:

      How many times have we heard a politician call their trade ‘a game’? They play one demographic off against another for personal and political gain without thought for the pain they cause or the opinions they influence. ‘That’s politics’, another throwaway line or ‘that’s just how its done’

      SLabour era’s probably over at a national level but they’re still in control of Scottish councils and still own BBC vote SLab Scotland.

    156. Greg Beekman says:

      I don’t think we can equate one nutter to all of England. Scotland has its own sectarian nutters, people not right in the head. That doesn’t mean all Scots are bigoted arseholes.

      I have very good friends in England and they are the nicest people in the world and are as sickened by all this Tory ultra-right wing crap as we are.

      Who ever killed Jo Cox clearly had mental health issues and to use it as a diagnostic tool to determine the attitudes of all English is wrong.

    157. Andrew McLean says:

      Hugh Barclay,
      I do not doubt the veracity of your reflection, but prudence would have advised you to change your beverage to a bottle of ginger! Brandy? Oh là là,

    158. bjsalba says:

      Quote from Wiki on Ian Davidson (British politician)

      In September 2013, Davidson caused anger after he suggested the debate on Scottish independence was continuing only “in the sense there is a large number of wounded still to be bayoneted”[16]

      In May 2015 he lost his seat to Chris Stephens of the SNP. Since then Davidson has indicated that he may support Britain’s withdrawal from the European Union[17]and he has taken up a key role in Vote Leave.[18]

    159. yesindyref2 says:

      You’d think I’d have known. It does mean I’m entitled to an Irish passport (as are the kids).

    160. Andy Anderson says:

      I do not understand why some people cannot put two and two together. Regarding immigration we were told a week or so ago that unemployment was 5% for the UK, the lowest since 2005, and also at about the same time net migration was 330000. This figure was roughly half EU intake and the balance from everywhere else.
      Surely this info would inform even a numpty that with unemployment low that the UK has absorbed migration since 2005 OK and also that the UK government cannot manage the 150000 non EU migrants ladt year. This shows leave at talking rubbish on the issue on migration.
      I know from my job that without skilled migrants we would be a much smaller business.

    161. Macart says:


      I remember Heed. I also remember Darling’s, Curran’s, Lamont’s and Murphy’s hate speeches. Those and so many others during the referendum.

      The casual way they chose to dehumanise their opponents. I remember the derision and naked bigotry displayed by the Tory benches speeches in parliament last year and the continued denigration in the media to this day. I remember Mr Carmichael’s descriptions and his defence of his actions during the 2015 GE.

      Bell’s cartoons, the Saltire Swastika of the Klan Alba piece in the SoS, the Mail’s Tartan barbarians and most Dangerous Woman in Britain articles.

      Apparently its ‘just politics’.

    162. Capella says:

      O/T Still trying to track down info on the allocation of fishing licences. (I have far too much free time).

      The Scottish Government has info on the allocation of fishing quotas including a link to the UK gov.Fixed Quota Allocation database. Unfortunately you can only search it vessel by vessel.

      Until 2012 the UK gov allocated fishing licences. I wonder if the redrawn maritime boundary allows vessels from e.g. Grimsby to fish as far north as St Andrews and still be within the English allocation?

    163. galamcennalath says:


      Some Unionist politicians and the media…..

      They lie and they spread fear. That’s not right. That’s immoral.

      They spread hatred and foster division. That’s totally unacceptable and unforgivable. That’s should be treated as criminal.

    164. Bob Mack says:

      @Greg Beekman,

      I don’t think we are comparing one nutter as you put it ,to the whole of England.

      What we are saying is that there is a very clear,very marked xenophobic element in England ,and the media are playing to that audience, They don’t just give air time to politicians crass fears,but indeed go on to magnify them.

      It is in trying to harness the fears of these voters that such situations as Jo Cox can arise. People with mental health issues are just as susceptible to Propoganda, and in some cases even more so.

    165. Artyhetty says:


      It is a dangerous game that these politicians and their media play, demonising Scotland.
      I experienced some amount of ridicule, and contempt from friends and family, in the run up to the referendum, and after it. They all watch the bbc, and read the pretendy lefty rags.

      If you look at what is happening in countries like Venezeula, the security services, or whoever they are, are a dab hand at divide and rule, especially in countries rich in resources. They portray any democratically elected, social justice government as dangerous, replace them and it’s job done.

      The people causing and creating more hatred, towards anyone, should hang their heads in shame.

    166. Macart says:


      ‘That’s should be treated as criminal.’

      I agree and so did we all when Carmichael was taken to court. His lies were exposed and condemned by the court, his character as an MP called into question and yet he was found not guilty of actually breaking breaking the law.

      His attempt at manipulation of public opinion and slander of Scotland’s First Minister was deemed acceptable – as the law currently stands. I believe the author of the initial release in the Torygraph was even put forward for an award on the piece.

      Politics and the media UK style.

      If ever two things were made for each other… and yet when an almost inevitable tragedy occurs, suddenly these two institutions become the conscience of the population. They become purer than the driven snow and no one’s grief or outrage is greater than theirs.

    167. heedtracker says:

      I remember Heed. I also remember Darling’s, Curran’s, Lamont’s and Murphy’s hate speeches. Those and so many others during the referendum.

      At least we can vote out likes of Davidson and not buy UK press products. We know D’Hindt keeps SLab in Holyrood but Darling’s crew are in the Lords and the BBC dominates Scottish broadcasting.

      Jaw dropping UK press hypocrisy from The Graun over this murder totally ignores what we here in Scotland have to endure day after day from them. We’re merely a region that they have very little interest in or consideration for, only that it remains in the UK.

      Essentially, Scotland’s in danger of coalescing into a set up where we the electorate are in perpetual opposition to a tory British nationalist BBC and a tory UK press. No matter how we vote, we are under the control of a tory UK that’s in power with 25% of the UK electorate and a few billionaire press owners.

    168. ronnie anderson says:

      Some people fail to recognize propoganda

      The death of Jo Cox wont change a single mindset of Politicians.

      Ian Murphy & Ann Begg on this day of all days are classic examples.

      RIP Jo Cox. I do hope her Husband has plenty of support for the sake of himself & her children.

    169. boris says:

      Added update. Germany gets tough on migrants.Change in Law to require them to comply with Christian standards (one wife only etc. Likely to create further backlash. But revised “modus operandi” for Germans does not apply in the UK.

    170. Almannysbunnet says:

      @Greg Beekman says:
      17 June, 2016 at 11:04 am
      Who ever killed Jo Cox clearly had mental health issues and to use it as a diagnostic tool to determine the attitudes of all English is wrong.

      I agree with you 100% but fail to see where anyone is remotlely suggesting it.

    171. I wonder if Farage and all those other unionists who in this vile and nasty EU referendum campaign have made Racism/Xenophobia acceptable in ‘British society’.

      Are proud themselves that it has resulted in the death of an MP.

    172. Bob Mack says:

      What irritates me today,is that social media is showing Scottish Labour supporters putting fault at the door of such as Wings for creating division.

      They know nothing. Wings is the most honest ,forthright and factual media on this island, unfettered from union,corporate and vested interest.

      I hope people wise up.

    173. Robbo says:

      re Luigi’s comment – if we remain in EU despite majority of English voting leave cannot wait for the media headlines ‘SNP voters saves the Union’

    174. Dr Jim says:

      Watching Bloomberg again and the American business community is very concerned that England might leave the EU and even had the British Ambassador on to promote England staying in

      So there you have it, just no point in us even voting at all really, what does it matter, who the hell are we, I’m confused I don’t know who I am or where I live anymore, I used to think I was in it, part of it, but it seems not

      Oh wait, I think it’s on the passport the British allow us to have, it says I’m a european citizen…Yay!!!

      Thank God,,,,, I’m alive!!I exist

      Although somehow I feel exactly the same as I did ten minutes ago….Damn!!

    175. Valerie says:

      @ Bob Mack

      Let them try! Plenty nasty stuff they have peddled to throw at them.

      WTF are they going to find on here, except dissection of their lies.

      Anyone remember the ‘foaming rivers of blood’, those disgusting cartoons from Bell.

      I am wary about turning this young woman’s murder into something about our cause, but the media would be very stupid to follow that cretin Fogarty, and mention SNP.

    176. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Whether or not he was mentally ill, he still murdered her. Latest reports are saying that she was on her way to the constituency surgery and he had been waiting for her. The other guy (77yr old) injured had been trying to help her. This is different from the initial reports which had her intervening in an argument.

      Too much being made of the mental illness thing. He may have been ill years ago, and well now, or ill but on medication. Nobody knows yet, but had he been brown skinned his mental state wouldnt be used as an excuse for his actions.

    177. Davie Park says:

      If I may, I’d just like to re-post part of a comment by Robert Sutherland.

      “One thing is certain, all atrocities such as this latest example are carried out by people with some kind of psychiatric imbalance. By definition. Some are purely self-initiated through serious mental illness and some are “validated” by others who should know better stoking up hatred via extreme political groupings and/or a complaisant media.”

    178. Greg Beekman says:

      Actually, I take my earlier comment back about tarring all England because of one crime.

      When I was reading some of the comments, I had it in my head that everyone was posting about Jo Cox, forgetting that was not what the original article was about. Oops!


    179. CageyBee says:

      Just seen this from LBC re the absolutely shocking events from yesterday.

    180. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Dr Jim at 1.26

      I have no idea where you got that from. All the “Irish Republicans” in Scotland that I know voted YES and will continue to do so

    181. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Andrew McLean at 9.54

      Newspapers are responsible for any “third party comment” they publish. “Readers Letters” get away with murder at the moment as most folk aren’t aware of this

    182. Andy B says:

      What can go wrong bringing in millions of people who think homosexuals have a right only to be thrown off a building to their deaths or women to be stoned for daring to try to be like the men are every day? That religious law written in their holy book should be the state’s law? Those are the countries they created and maintained, after all. We are setting back freedom and human rights movements decades or more with this, ironically.

      Totally compatible with modern Europe, I’m sure.

      And to top it off we’re taking in people who have no ID, criminal record proof, military service record (how many of these people have been beheading others and firing AKs themselves?), intelligence background checks, etc. There are millions of good people from India and other former colonies (as well as Chinese and others with excellent education) who have actual records we can check who can contribute if needed. Why ship in the worst and most dodgy of all? In no point in history does this make rational sense as the wisest option, even if it’s purely charity and hand outs. You could help a dozen over in their native lands for the cost of settling one of these here. Get the wonderful “allies” of the Western powers to take in a chunk of them – Saudi Arabia and others for a start. They are compatible cultures and beliefs and brothers and sisters to them.

      If a flood of Germans (lets say overwhelmingly military age men in demographics, like the ones in this picture you’ll notice) without so much as a scrap of paper tried to come here during WW2 would we accept them and give them handouts and council houses and free reign to wander? Of course not. Yet here we are witnessing Europe make this same bone headed mistake, foolishly believing that the world is exactly the same as them, despite all evidence to the contrary. The demographics of Germany are ironically destroyed as it is with this madness, far too much too soon in one segment has been replaced with these people forever.

    183. Andy B says:

      I’ve seen footage and pictures of these “migrants” flooding in from everywhere from Greece and former Yugoslavian states to Germany and France. Every time it is always mostly well dressed and fed men of military age.

      Look at refugees in Europe and Asia in previous ages. Old men, children, women. Desperate, hungry, dirty, carrying their few posessions on their backs like mules as they try to take what they can. These are the scenes across the world in Africa, Europe and Asia. I’ve seen the pictures and footage from wars even in the latter half of the last century. The young men of course lost or still in the battlefields defending these people fleeing. Instead we have floods of young men who – if we believe the official cheerleaders of uncontrolled immigration – have abandoned all these women, children and elderly to a hellish warzone to die (which is therefore being fought by…the old men and women they left behind we can assume?). All with clean clothes, well fed, mobile phones with credit and charge. Claiming to have tramped across the Middle East and Europe in tennis shoes that miraculously are still looking intact and in good condition (which is nonsense on stilts to anyone who has hiked or marched any distance at all). They’re looking healthier than the people sleeping in the streets here, who I guess are going to be sleeping there a lot longer now the housing waiting list has gone up by a few million and these new people will be given top priority and best of everything, of course.

      Not only that with the total lack of checks and IDs the numbers of “syrians” which are clearly not syrian due to their appearance and accents being entirely wrong yet are being allowed in is another nail in this coffin.

      Immigration and travel is a good thing. Throwing controls and common sense out of the window is a bad thing. Border control is a vital cornerstone of what a state does.

    184. Iain More says:

      In relation to the brutal event of yesterday there is only one hard and brutal fact and that is that a Labour MP was gunned down in the streets of the UK.

      Everything that comes after that isn’t news it is speculation, hearsay and conjecture and today we have had the Brit Nat Press and Media kicking in with the full State BS and Propaganda. With much finger pointing and hand washing and plenty of amnesia outbreaks. There has been plenty of that today.

      I think I will just watch the footie and ignore it all. Oh wait a minute that heid nip Hoddle will probably be on again and again.

    185. Robert Peffers says:

      @Greg Beekman says: 17 June, 2016 at 11:04 am:

      “I don’t think we can equate one nutter to all of England.”

      I may be wrong as I’m too busy to read, as I usually do, every post today but it is not likely the usual wings commenters would do such a thing.

      … Scotland has its own sectarian nutters, people not right in the head. That doesn’t mean all Scots are bigoted arseholes.”

      Once again I don’t think anyone has suggested otherwise. In fact the general consensus on Wings could be summed up as very much anti-sectarian no one, except the trolls, has attempted to suggest that because of the mainly Irish political and religious sectarianism in Scotland that all Scots are sectarian.

      … I have very good friends in England and they are the nicest people in the world and are as sickened by all this Tory ultra-right wing crap as we are.”

      Once more who says otherwise? However, facts are facts and it is a fact that it was the majority of the people of England who elected those Tories into office. Scotland elected one.

      ” … Who ever killed Jo Cox clearly had mental health issues and to use it as a diagnostic tool to determine the attitudes of all English is wrong.

      Eh! What do you mean, “Whoever killed Jo Cox”? Not only do we know who killed the lady but we know not only his mental history but also his involvement with the extreme right wing in England and the USA.

      We also know how he got the information from the USA extreme right wing for manufacturing the home made gun he used to execute the unfortunate lady.

      Whether you like it or not there is a growing extreme right wing element in England and some of it is ensconced in, not just UKIP and the Tory Party, but inside the very cabinet itself.

      Facts are indeed facts. Who but extreme right wingers would be simultaneously sanctioning disabled and ill people while giving tax breaks to the top 20% of the wealthiest people in the UK?

      The statistics show those top 20% of the richest in the UK have more than doubled their personal wealth while attempting to tell the rest of us, “We are all in this together”.

      You cannot be suffering austerity measures while more than doubling your wealth.

    186. Peter Barjonas says:

      Watching the EU ref. broadcasts I feel like I am watching a foreign television station. When abroad I find local news interesting and (when translated) informative: my horizon is widened and I have some appreciation of the views of my hosts, whether I agree or not or am just too parochial and out of my league?
      So much for a foreign holliday! The good news is that I can save all holliday expenses now and just tune in to our ‘national broadcasters’ to get the same visitor experience. I am out of my league when I watch the justification on the airwaves for either side. I know that as a Scot in Scotland there is no confusion: REMAIN, then INDEPENDENDENCE.
      Peter Barjonas

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