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48 hours in Britain

Posted on June 15, 2016 by

So, just to recap this week’s events so far:

It’s now offensive to call gay people human beings, a Leave vote will destroy Western civilisation, a Remain vote will bring about an Orlando-style mass killing by Islamic terrorists, Ed Balls – whose party isn’t in government and who isn’t even an MP – has promised to cut immigration if we vote Remain, Alistair Darling has teamed up with George Osborne to deliver a Punishment Budget if we vote Leave (except that it won’t pass because 57 Tory MPs will vote against it), Jeremy Corbyn led the last Prime Minister’s Questions before the EU referendum by asking about the Leveson Inquiry, and Bob Geldof is conducting a naval battle on the Thames with Nigel Farage.

Did we miss anything?

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  1. 15 06 16 14:56

    48 hours in Britain | speymouth

  2. 16 06 16 23:26

    We Do Not Need It; We Will Not Use It | A Wilderness of Peace

290 to “48 hours in Britain”

  1. Macart says:

    They’ve gone utterly tonto. 😮

    Basically you’ve just described London and its politics in utter meltdown.

  2. Dr Jim says:

    I’ve never liked blue cars, there I admit it, sorry but I just don’t

    I prostrate myself for the punishment to come

  3. David says:

    So pretty standard stuff then.

  4. ClanDonald says:

    Wish they’d advertised the battle of the Thames in advance, I’d have paid for tickets 😀

  5. heedtracker says:

    Brexit PM Bojo and Chancellor Farage, taking back control, for you and you and you.

  6. Tartan Tory says:

    I think you missed the bit about ‘British’ fans in the Euro2016 fracas. They were obviously there supporting our well known national football team!

  7. Proud Cybernat says:

    The perfect storm is brewing. And we’ll be well out of it soon.

  8. Thomas William Dunlop says:

    I blame it all on the El Nino…

  9. One_Scot says:

    I think there will be a lot of people south of the border happy to leave Europe and get shot of Scotland at the same time.

  10. This only shows how dire the unionist campaign really is on both sides of the EU referendum.

    Would any sane and sensible person want to see any of those clowns – apologies to clowns who in comparison are professional and competent at doing their jobs – in charge of running a country?

    There has been nothing from the to inspire ordinary people into supporting either side in the debate, no details of how thing could be made better if we left or stayed, all we’ve had from them has been scaremongering, threats, racism/xenophobia.

  11. katherine hamilton says:

    I’ve always been sceptical about rushing to a second referendum on the back of a Brexit.
    Now? I’m not so sure. As the true colours of the Leave mob have been exposed over the last weeks it is frightful.
    They are just awful people.

    In many ways Nicola has had an easy ride because of the 50%+ for Independence in Scotland who vote for her party. If Scotland votes in and rUK votes out, that is her test.

    The status quo won’t hold. Which way will she lead?

    Now’s the day and now’s the hour, Nicola.

  12. Inverclyder says:

    You forgot about…

    The Tuba player even though he is only a minor irrelevance.

    Kez campaigning in Londinium.

    Boris the Bad misquoting a report he didn’t read and being pulled up for it by Alex Salmond.

    The other one was SNP Bad for meeting targets early.

  13. Jamie Arriere says:

    Ahoy, Cap’n Farage!! Or is it Rear Admiral?

    Give us some bollocks, Sir!!

    Why, thank ‘ee kindly!


  14. ezgee says:

    The point of the matter had nothing to do with calling LGBT human beings being offensive, what was offensive was the deliberate attempts of Sky news to divert the point away from this being an attack on LGBT people to focus on Islamic Extremism.
    There is no excuse not to acknowledge the fact that it was an attack targeting people of the LGBT community.
    The fact is these media outlets would rather report that there was another terror attack claimed by ISIS instead of gathering facts like the shooter not being religious, was abusive and threatening to his wife and co-workers, was a legal gun owner and pledged allegiance not just to ISIS but to 2 other organisations who happen to be at war with each other.
    Cause nothing pulls in views like some Islamophobia.

  15. DerekM says:

    Aye Rev that a fitting piece of music to go with the status quo.

    Since we are having a singalong to yoon crazy batshit mental lunacy.

  16. Anne DONOHOE says:

    It is not offensive to call gay people human beings.

    However, it is nonsense to suggest that the gunman didn’t select that particular bar because it was a gay venue.

    He didn’t have to drive for two hours to find a bar. He drove for two hours to attack a gay bar.

  17. pitchfork says:

    I’ve humming Captain Pugwash all morning and hoping to see Geldof drown as Boris accidentaly harpoons Nigel.

  18. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, you missed something. I believe Nero is due to perform in the House of Commons this weekend, for an emergency session of Parliament. This concert is expected to really set the House on fire.

  19. Tartan Tory says:

    @ katherine hamilton

    In many ways Nicola has had an easy ride because of the 50%+ for Independence in Scotland who vote for her party. If Scotland votes in and rUK votes out, that is her test.

    Nicola has had no easy ride when up to 1/3rd of the SNP membership are expressing their opinion against her EU stance. Membership cards have been torn-up and there has been an outpouring of grief on the SNP pages about this ‘assumed’ carrying of Scotlands IN vote.

    I pray that we will NOT have an immediate IndyRef2 on the back of a Brexit vote. If it were to come in the next couple of years, we would lose, plain and simple.

    The EU is like being in a taxi with no known destination. The taxi is stoping next week and we have a chance to get out and make our own way home. The really frightening thing is that the taxi driver doesn’t know where he is going, whether you are in the car or not.

  20. Bob Mack says:

    Month Python could have done no better. They are all quite insane.

  21. Grouse Beater says:

    You missed another bizarre event, the allegedly tabloid court ‘disgraced’ SNP MP Michelle Thomson participating in good government at Westminster by asking Sir Philip Green some difficult questions, and he unable to patronise her by giving her a ‘fatherly’ squeeze.

  22. Marco McGinty says:

    Nice to hear the Russian anthem, without the inconsiderate booing this time round.

  23. Grouse Beater says:

    And don’t forget Godzilla’s appearance for Remain called upon by Labour’s shaman to tell us some old jokes, and relate worn anecdotes of the days he bestrode the earth.

  24. Pat Carroll says:

    Wasn’t that fishing boat leading Farage’s Flotilla involved in a fishing fraud scandal a wee while ago?

  25. geeo says:

    How on earth are the tories going to govern after this vote, regardless of the result ?

  26. Alex McArthur says:

    @Anne DONOHOE

    Completely agree.

  27. galamcennalath says:

    Why are all the past MPs being wheeled out? Do those in the wee WM bubble believe they have some lasting respect and ordinary people will listen to them? If so, the WM elites are even further out of touch than I thought.

    The campaign from London seems to have descended into – the side which can drive away the most voters will lose!

  28. katherine hamilton says:

    Aye Tartantory, but you rather miss the point. They may leave the SNP, fair enough. I suspect however they will still be pro Indy. Like you I was doubtful about a “quick” Indyref2, but now as I say I’m not so sure.

    The forces lined up for out are monstrous. I also think the chaos following any Brexit will require positions to be taken. You, me, everybody. All I’m saying is Nicola better take hers, which is a lot more important than yours or mine.

    Also I didn’t comment on timescale. 2 years, 5 years? Who knows.
    It’s summer now. Where’s the relaunch? Ah yes, of course. 24th June onwards. Will you support it? I will.

  29. Hamish McTavish says:

    Is there a prefix that is more all-encompassing than “omni” to put at the start of “shambles”?

    Needed soon, if not now.

  30. Turinsday says:

    Best thing we can do is sit quiet for a bit after the vote for leave happens. Let the UK go to the dogs for a couple of years and then go for independence. An immediate referendum will simply continue the batshit crazy fear and hype that has characterized this EU referendum.

    Take our time, no rush and we’ve got this.

  31. Roddy Macdonald says:

    As a human being who happens to be gay who spent 12 years of his life fighting through the courts for gay folk to get the same legal protections as other human beings, being called a human being suits me just fine.

    I’ve been appalled by the histrionics displayed by some and disgusted with talk of “ownership” of the tragedy in Orlando.

    By the time we get to today, the 2 armadas of arseholes battling it out on the Thames almost make me despair for the humanity I spent so long trying to be fully recognised as a member of. It’s more Benny Hill than Monty Python.

    Next Friday can’t come fast enough!

  32. Tinto Chiel says:

    I think you missed “Putin trained Ruski football thugs in secret training camp”.

    Utter bollocks but it’ll probably surface in The Daily Mail tomorrow.

    This whole Brexit fiasco has caused people to have less regard for politicians than ever and I can’t see how the Tory party is going to unite again after next Thursday. Either way Dodgy Dave is toast and so it’s either Bojo or “Rollie” Muncher Gove as leader of the brownshirts.

    Labour too is deeply riven and most people in England seem obsessed with immigration to the exclusion of anything else.

    It’s going to be chaos and I don’t know if it will all be to our advantage. Things could get very tricky before we escape.

    Westminster is sick, dysfunctional, completely corrupt and sclerotic and the sooner we get our 56 home and leave the Union the better.

    I think your sound track should have been “Anarchy in the UK”, Rev.

  33. Nation Libre says:

    I couldn’t really care less whither it’s in or out (I should really as I live in France) but it’s just great sitting back watching all the madness unfold, and deep wounds within the Tory and Labour Parties being inflicted daily

    My ideal outcome would be an overall ‘remain’ victory but with an England voting out being overruled by a Scotland voting in pushing remain to victory

    I am quite amazed at how the remain campaign has completely misjudged what people are wanting to leave the EU for. Harping on about finances just won’t swing it. It appears to me to be much more about them trying to maintain their culture, to put it nicely (an observation on my part only)

  34. galamcennalath says:

    We can be assured that the naesayers will conduct their Indyref2 campaign in the same manner as we see now for EURef.


    I have little doubt the Yes side will conduct itself generally with decorum and good nature.

    Last time NO lost 25% from their lead. IMO much of that was their negativity and complete refusal to put a positive case for their Union.

    Does anyone doubt they will make the same mistake again? It’s inevitable! Is there a positive case for a Union with a rampant right wing isolationist England?

  35. Dave MacIntyre says:

    I think Nicola Sturgeon is correct in saying that if we vote to leave the EU then we ain’t seen nothing yet.

    The right wing will run amok and trample all over workers and human rights, not to mention the austerity budget that awaits and the effect this will have on the poor, unemployed and disabled people throughout the UK.

    I’m beginning to lose it with Jim Sillars and co.

  36. Derek Cameron says:

    Finances? Don’t suppose they’ll be discussing the £66Billion Libyan sovereign wealth fund as we have our own UK way of looking after volatile resources.

  37. Neil Cook says:

    If Engurland get thrown out of Euro 2016 will that be a spur for the leave campaign to say that Europe hates Engurland and the best reason to vote out?

    I can see Nigel polishing his Doc martens and getting his Fred Perry on right now and sharpening the knuckleduster to ensure they do!

    Seems coincidental that they jail English fans and put Russians on the plane home with no charge, I think the French want rid of the UK for there own betterment.

  38. Mark says:

    Thank you Padraig Pearse from saving Ireland from this madness. Yours smugly, An Irish citizen

  39. galamcennalath says:

    On balance, I think I agree with … Nation Libre says:

    “My ideal outcome would be an overall ‘remain’ victory but with an England voting out being overruled by a Scotland voting in pushing remain to victory”

    However as …. Tinto Chiel says:

    “It’s going to be chaos and I don’t know if it will all be to our advantage. Things could get very tricky before we escape.”

    Whichever brand of Tory wins, it will be a mess because the result will be close and fundamentally indecisive. Chaos will ensue. I don’t like the arguments which say Scotland should take more damage on the chin because it will help with an Indy case sometime in the disappearing future.

    A lot of damage has been done. Too much. We don’t need the ‘evidence’ of more.

    Whatever the outcome, IMO campaigning should begin again for Indy. Education, evidence, persuasion, and conversion to Yes. We need out of this mess!

  40. DerekM says:

    SNP membership grew large after indyref i have no doubt a lot of those new members might be against the EU and some of the old but this is not about the EU this is now a vote for English independence.

    They have opened pandoras box and inside they found us tearing up the act of union however the catch 22 is that Scotland must vote remain no matter how much a bad taste it leaves in your mouth.

    Plenty of mouthwash in an independant Scotland,yes we should engage with the EU its the backdoor out this nightmare union we are stuck in and it would appear with what is happening just now the EU have no problem allowing a member state a referendum so why should we not give it a go,we tried to make this one work and in the end when we do become independant we will still need to work and trade with other countries,no time like the present for getting on with that as i said before screw the union lets act independant and sit in a third parlaiment what are they going to do go in the huff.

    And since England will be busy with leaving they will have no right to set the rules for how we elect our MEP`s so i would say we do a FPTP or better we could move the MP`s to the EU at least they could then get on with the job of representing us in a parliament that does matter.

  41. G H Graham says:

    Wrong tune Stu? Perhaps it should have been “Anarchy in the UK” which contains this gem …

    “How many ways to get what you want
    I use the best
    I use the rest
    I use the enemy
    I use anarchy”

  42. Ian Brotherhood says:

    I’m not making my mind up until I know what Michelle Mone’s doing.

    (I don’t care how she’s going to vote, just keen to know what she’s doing generally…)

  43. mogabee says:

    Feck me..thought you said it’s a quiet time?

    I’d not been online much over last week or so and reading all this has made me laugh and laugh and laugh!

    Going out to stock up on HUMUNGOUS bags of popcorn. 🙂

  44. yesindyref2 says:

    On a more serious note, what I think voters should think of is that in 10, 20, 30 years, all the silly politicians with the scaremongering on both sides will have been put out to pasture, they will be non-politicians, they will have no power, no affect on our daily lives, nothing to do with it.

    But in 10, 20, 30 years we’ll still be here, or our kids or grandkids, or our families kids and grandkids. So ignore the whole flaming lot of these weirdos, nutcases, self-interested parrots, lesser-spotted amoebas, think what YOU want, and vote accordingly.

    But do vote. It’s your future.

  45. Tinto Chiel says:

    “We need out of this mess!” says galamcennalath.

    In other words, “I’m a Scot, get me out of here!” 😯

    I hear of more clashes between England and Russia fans, so maybe Neil Cook’s speculation will be put to the test. But would FIFA ban England, knowing the potential backlash before the vote?

    What a mess.

  46. Luigi says:

    2014 – private polling showed that huge numbers of Labour supporters were intending to vote YES, panic all round, Gordon Brown is quickly wheeled out to convince enough of his dwindling band that indy is bad bad bad. Many Labour supporters did vote YES anyway, but Gordy saved the union (just) and in 2015 Labour haemorrhaged huge numbers of , votes to the SNP.

    2015 – private polling showing that huge numbers of Labour supporters are intending to vote OUT, panic all round, Gordon Brown is quickly wheeled out to convince enough of his dwindling band that brexit is bad bad bad. Many voters vote OUT anyway and, regardless of the result, Labour will almost certainly haemorrhage huge numbers of votes to UKIP at the next election.

    A NO vote did not exactly kill the SNP. and an IN vote will not necessarily kill UKIP (or Boris!). Poor Labour, it’s always them that suffers – they never seem to learn.

    It’s a funny old world. 🙂

  47. Tinto Chiel says:

    “I’m not making my mind up until I know what Michelle Mone’s doing.”

    @Ian Brotherhood: you should take the initiative, Ian, and incorporate her in your Toby Young blockbuster. Is he still bending over manhole covers provocatively, btw?

    Och, I shouldn’t encourage you.


  48. Brian Fleming says:

    Osborne doesn’t need Tory MPs to pass his ‘Punishment Budget’. That what the (not)Labour Party’s for.

  49. G H Graham says:

    I’m waiting for the diet pill saleswoman, Baroness Michele Mone to ask a ministerial question of the Arch Angel of Doom & knight of the realm, his short arse Lord Robertson in which a request is made by telegram no less, to Twitter glitterati Growling to have a meeting, live on the radio with the BBC’s house harridan K**(e) A**** in order to ask the narcissistic personality known to Unionists & BBC savants as Brian Spanner, to call in with his decision.

    Then whatever that answer is, I’ll do the opposite.

    And move to the moon.

    Have I missed anything?

  50. Robert Louis says:

    Wholly disagree with your first point Rev Stu. It is trite, and stupid in the extreme.

    Owen Jones was quite correct in walking out of the SKY studio. He did so not because somebody called gay people human beings, but because the presenter was attempting to diminish or even deny the FACT that the attack was aimed squarely at gay people, NOT just people in general.

    The gunman targeted a gay bar, during gay pride month. It is hardly a general attack on just ‘people’. To my knowledge nobody (and that includes Owen Jones) said it was wrong to call gay people human beings. To present such an argument the way you have, is to distort the nature of the debate.

    Pretty disgusted that you, Rev Stuart Camopbell, have written such nonsense, or even more bizarrely actually believe (I assume you do) what you have written.

    Here’s the other viewpoint for a bit of balance;

    Quote from Owen Jones: “I walked off in disgust during a discussion about the massacre: it was an instinctive reaction to an unpleasant and untenable situation. The presenter continually and repeatedly refused to accept that this was an attack on LGBT people. This was an attack “against human beings”, he said, and “the freedom of all people to try to enjoy themselves”. He not only refused to accept it as an attack on LGBT people, but was increasingly agitated that I – as a gay man – would claim it as such.”

  51. heedtracker says:

    Schadenfreude in action. The Flipper drives The Ligger to the edge of UKOK reason and he’s not even there. Its funny when it’s happening to someone else, let alone the BBC/

  52. Paula Rose says:

    Best option would be an independent Scotland that can have a mature debate about EU membership – the SNP should now make that clear, until that happens vote Remain.

  53. Bob Mack says:

    Robert Louis,

    Wrong thread. Nobody knows the facts as yet.

  54. yesindyref2 says:

    From the Herald: “Scottish support for staying in EU drops 13% in two months, poll finds”

    “An Ipsos Mori poll for STV suggests backing for the remain camp, while still well ahead, has fallen by 13% over the last two months.

    The poll of 1,000 adults – carried out between June 6 and 12 – shows a majority (53%) still support remaining in the EU, with 32% backing Brexit.”

    I believe it as well. I think the Remain side scaremongering has really hacked people off. Which is, however, if true, good news for IndyRef2. But I also think a full third are undecided.

  55. orri says:

    I think the point being made on Sky, badly, was that the gay club was being targeted as an attack the decadence of the USA’s general tolerance of gays as just being human beings. The same way that the Bataclan attack was on a relative minority with occasional trappings of satanic imagery for effect. Both were attacks on freedom of expression.

    Instead of stopping off in a huff it might be an idea to actually take on board that there are those who want to make a point of refusing to play the terrorist’s game of isolating a section of our societies.

    According to some the Nazi’s generally didn’t give a fuck about the Jews other than as a convenient scapegoat to focus hatred upon. Given they also rounded up communists, blacks, gays, lesbians and anyone else they could isolate in order to gain favour from their bigots and cow the rest into complicity it’s believable.

  56. ER says:

    Agreeing with Robert Louis on that first point; they basically pulled the LGBT equivalent of “All Lives Matter” and tried to dilute the issue. Then they pulled the ultimate projection by claiming Jones was making it “all about him” while ignoring the fact they were trying to make it all about them.

  57. Proud Cybernat says:

    If we Brexit can we still use the pound?

  58. shiregirl says:

    Dear God.

    It’s all happening. The world has finally gone round the pipe.

    In all seriousness, Giddy has lost the plot. Does he seriously think he will be Chancellor if there is a Leave result? He needs to lay down in a dark room, alone and given appropriate medication.

    Crazy shit going on.

  59. Bob Mack says:


    You might as well claim the attack on the twin towers was an attack on American business people., We should wait and see the evidence.

  60. bobajock says:

    Planets in alignment will create a chaotic period in your life, as a Taurean you will ride this out. A new planet will arise, Alba, with a soul.

    Beware the Gemini male.

  61. Iain More says:

    And I gave up the wacky baccy 20 years ago. I needn’t have bothered.

  62. Greannach says:

    Did you miss anything? I think you must have. Surely there is a spontaneous royal pageant somewhere, or the celebration of thousands of deaths in World War 1 or 2. I mean, this is Britain.

  63. AlbertaScot says:

    The question that needs answerin’.

    If Nicola pulls it off and swings enough JockStay votes to win this thing, what’s the payoff?

    Same old same old, status quo, back to business as usual, we will now return to previously scheduled programming, surely not?

    As Trump says, Cameron will owe us “BIG LEAGUE”.

    Hopefully Nic’s got a long list.

  64. Breeks says:

    Whatever the outcome of this vote; the real villain of the piece isn’t Europe or the Tories, but the muck raking, xenophobic, eurosceptic, shit stirring BBC which has for decades maligned and ridiculed the EU collectively and individual nation states within.

    I honestly do not know whether Europe is good for Scotland or bad for us. I rather think it is good for us, since participation is very often better than abstention as a fundamental philosophy, (though not always whenever the US or UK is calling the tune), but any true appreciation of the matter is scarely possible given these decades of hectoring, bigotry and ritual condemnation of all things European.

    This Brexit referendum is, if anything, worse than our own referendum for the petulant, narrow minded, and highly selective distortion of the most important fundamentals on the agenda. It is like forcing a debate on diabetes, then squabbling endlessly about whether Fruit Gums do more damage than crisps. I thoroughly despair at the shallow and facile nature of the arguments and the criminal lack of rigour in articulating the core issues.
    This isn’t democracy. This is taking the piss on a truly epic scale. And once all the bombs have been dropped, the casualties counted, the carnage assessed, and the landscape indellibly altered, out will crawl the shit stirring war mongering, truth manipulating, shape shifting BBC shite goblin, ready to start its evil mischief all over again.

    Please. Get rid of the BBC. It is a catastrophe which cannot wait to happen again and again and suffer its sworded poisonous little self upon us all. It is a permanent fking embarrassment sufferred upon the lot of us and our tolerance of this rude, mannerless nuisance dimishes us in the eyes of others.

    Take it out the back and shoot the malingering troublesome little shit and bash its head in with a shovel just to make the issue sure. Then, let us all sit down and have a proper intelligent conversation about Europe, and Scotland’s place in or out of the UK.

  65. Fireproofjim says:

    I watched the Sky News broadcast when Owen Jones walked out,
    In my opinion he seemed to want to make the attack on gays somehow special and worse than the attacks in France or elsewhere, simply because they were gay.
    When the other participants in the discussion tried to make an equivalence on all the victims of all the terrorist attacks, he said they didn’t understand because they were not gay and he had had enough and walked out.
    He really lost the plot and could not accept any other opinion than his own and attempted to shout down the others. It was childish and did his argument no favours.

  66. Anagach says:

    AlbertaScot says:

    If Nicola pulls it off and swings enough JockStay votes to win this thing, what’s the payoff?

    If that happens we will be too busy dealing with the tsunami of Xenophobic hatred directed against Scots to worry about any payoffs.

    I say Scots, not voters in Scotland because the sort of people who will froth and scream do not make such distinctions.

    Anyway its not that likely – so many voters in England it would have to be very close for the Scotland vote to swing it.

  67. Valerie says:

    A good account of Project Farce.

    Sir Philip Green was mesmerising Select Committee TV. Full frontal bullshit from a bullying wideboy, who made a point of insulting and patronising every member.

    A blatant liar, who couldn’t give a shit about ordinary folks pensions.

  68. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    One_Scot 13:37 said:

    I think there will be a lot of people south of the border happy to leave Europe and get shot of Scotland at the same time.

    You’re dead right there. They stayed under their stones during the indyref while the great & good were love-bombing us, but they’re creeping out and getting bolder now that we’ve blown our main chance.

    I have long held that the consequence of that loss of nerve is not that independence would not come, but that it would come with a great more trouble and ill-feeling on both sides instead of the clean break that it could have been. And so it seems to be coming to pass.

    It’s hard to know how this EUref thing is going to pan out. The “golden outcome” of England being held in by Scotland is probably the least likely to happen. Fate isn’t usually that kind! But it’s the outcome where English anti-Scottish feeling could be tapped most productively for indy.

    But whatever the outcome may be, it is essential that the Scottish “Remain” vote is as high as possible. Without that the whole thing will be just another lost opportunity.

  69. Kevin Evans says:

    I’ve just watched the footage of the naval battle with these 2 fools.

    Live aid was great but since then geldof and Bono have went a bit daft. And well, UKIP and farage, morons.

    This is so enjoyably and seriously messed up now.

  70. Kevin Evans says:

    That has actually made my day

  71. Kennedy says:

    “Alistair Darling has teamed up with George Osborne to deliver a Punishment Budget if we vote Leave”

    Wow just wow.

    Basically, vote leave and we will starve you.

    This is the UK. The preferred choice of “No” voters.

  72. schrodingers cat says:


    after latest scottish poll
    Remain 58% (-8)
    Leave 33% (+4)
    dk = 9%

    “It now seems almost impossible to imagine that Remain won’t win in Scotland, and probably by a decent (if not necessarily overwhelming) margin.”

    looking at the uk wide polls, it looks pretty certain that the rUK will vote to leave

    the only question still remaining to be settled is “will the rUK vote leave in sufficient numbers for leave to win across the whole UK?

    it appears that 2/3rds of the perfect storm are now in place

  73. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    yesindyref2 15:52

    I think the Remain side scaremongering has really hacked people off. Which is, however, if true, good news for IndyRef2.

    I disagree. The scaremongering has been far worse on the “Leave” side, with a definite racist “blame the foreigners for everything” nasty streak.

    This notion that a win for Brexit will somehow advance the cause for a second indyref is also seriously ill-founded. The hard Tory-UKIP alliance that I always feared would happen is no friend whatever of indy. They are yoon ultras whose Westminster will tolerate no alternatives. There’s no evidence that Scotland will rise up as a consequence and demand release. OK, maybe we’ll have Henry McLeish and The Herald on our side, but who else?

    Even worse, if there’s a majority in Scotland for “Leave” like England, we’ll hear no end of crowing from the yoon media about how much we’re all the same really, so why don’t these indy whingers all just shut up and get back in the box!

  74. schrodingers cat says:

    the unionists are in a mess, divided and at the weakest i have ever seen them

    if brexit, all of the arguments amongst us must cease. the next 12 months will offer us the best chance ever to win our independence.

    the planets will be aligned in our favour as never before, and this perfect storm offers us a chance in a life time.

    we need to discuss what the scottish government should say and do

    we need to discuss what westminster will say and do

    we need to discuss what we, the grass roots should say and do

    laughing at the antics of the unionist navel battle trying to sink each other is fun…. but i think we need to seriously start thinking about the immediate future

    i will reiterate this point tho’ the GE, HE and EUref have been damaging and divisive for the indy movement, but i believe we have weathered the worst and come the 24th, we need to ditch party politics and all our differences and reset our compasses in the direction of independence

  75. Valerie says:

    Yessss! More petrol on the fire.

    Something many of us said in 2014.

    Rumours running on Twitter that Farage will be offered some kind of post in a Boris gov’t.

    I was shot down MANY times for predicting that one, and to me its so obvious, even back then. It really locks the kipper support into the far right Tory.

  76. schrodingers cat says:

    we need to discuss what the scottish government should say and do

    1st thing is nicola should approach the EU and ask for clarification on an Independent scotlands position wrt the EU after the yes2 vote,
    successor state, fast track etc.

    we need to discuss what westminster will say and do

    I think they will block it using a number of arguements, 1st and foremost, the snp has no mandate for indyref2.

    they will challenge holyoods legal ability to hold indyref2

    they will discourage unionists in scotland participating in indyref2, so they can dismiss the result, same as madrid did to catalunia

  77. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    AlbertaScot, Anagach, schrodingers cat,

    There may well be “a tsunami of Xenophobic hatred directed against Scots” but actually the worse the outcry the better. “We” don’t need to deal with it, the politicians will have to sort it out. The “golden outcome” is far, far more than just some sweeties for Nicola, it’s the Czechoslovakia gambit: no indyref2, just a handshake between Boris and Nicola and the deal is done.

    Unlikely, I know, especially if the polls are to be believed. (Are they?) But potentially historic in more ways than one.

  78. Dr Jim says:

    The guy who killed folk in a disco bar

    Information now is, this guy had visited this bar before and attempted to get folk to dance with him and had bought people drinks and tried to socialise within the venue

    Now I don’t mean to trivialise this in any way so I hope that’s not how this reads, but is it not just possible this individual was just a run of the mill American Bampot with guns who happened to be gay got himself rejected and blew a gasket over not dealing with his jealous condition

    Then the ISIS headcases jump on it and claim him as one of theirs because it suits them to do that and it winds up fearful Americans that their country is infested by Muslim terrorists, the LGBT folk claim him as one of theirs to enhance exposure for rights when in fact nobody should have the right to claim anybody as belonging to others unless that person were alive to agree with it

    In conclusion if this happened in Britain it might have ended up as a punch up outside a pub or at worst a stabbing or some such like but because it’s America the access to firepower weaponry is as easy as buying a Coke in a newsagents and the fault lies in the lifestyle culture of America more than the lifestyle culture of being Gay, Muslim, or indeed any person of any persuation, religion or none

    Seems too many people are too keen on labeling bad stuff that happens as political causes, and too many politicians are just as happy to collect the sound bites that comes with it, sometimes bad stuff happens for no reason other than it does, and that’s crap, but you can’t always rationalise life the way you want it

    God Bless America (coz no one else will)

  79. Jim Thomson says:

    What’s the process for a vote of no confidence in the (current) PM?

    What happens if Labour abstain, how do the figures stack up against Cameron?

    If the vote of no confidence leads to his downfall, how soon will the replacement also be subject to a similar vote?

    This could go on for quite some time.

    Share price of Butterkist?

  80. schrodingers cat says:

    just a handshake between Boris and Nicola and the deal is done.

    i think the polls also show, after brexit, yes passing the 50% mark

    in the next 12 months, the shit will hit the fan and more and more of the business and civic groups will come out for yes. (see diago’s announcment 2 days ago)

    the local elections give the snp the chance to confirm their democratic mandate to hold indyref2

    nicola wont jump until she is certain to win indyref2, bojo wont agree if he thinks he will lose.

    unless boris sees scotland leaving as a good thing, believes the rhetoric about scots being subsidy junkies and if the snp mps vacate westminster his majority would be confirmed, even if the electoral fraud investigation causes bye elections,

    the handshake between Bojo and Nicola on indyref2 would amount to the same thing. more of a wave goodbye than a hand shake

  81. Vestas says:

    Hell of a summer isn’t it? Looneytunes everywhere & its pissing it down 🙁

    From what I’m seeing in the East Midlands (Leicester) then Leave wins probably 65-35. Notable is the support for Brexit from all generations of current Indian/Pakistani immigrants. There is widespread support amongst them for restricting all immigration – including Indian/Pakistani immigrants.

    We had Gogszilla here in Leicester the other day – usual bollox from him to a handpicked audience & I cannot imagine why anyone in Remain thought it was a good idea to send him to the East Mids. You get plenty of day to day “Scotch git” abuse here at the best of times so thinking its a great idea for him to come & lecture the English about nationalism is beyond belief.

    From my perspective its a done deal – England will vote Leave in sufficient numbers to negate Scottish/NI/Welsh votes. The Brexit votes are overwhelmingly going to come from poor people – and in Leicester that goes across race/nationality. People just look at it and think “we’re fucked now, so why not try something different?”

    Even if that isn’t the case I think you’re going to see a similar backlash towards the “establishment” as we saw following indyref1.

    The Remain campaign might win with Project Fear 2 but it’ll be a pyrrhic victory as a large portion of the population realise they’ve been fed bullshit from the cradle to the grave.

    Hell of a summer….

  82. mike cassidy says:

    That rerun of Trafalgar!

    First time I’ve seen a plank walking the plank!

  83. Capella says:

    O/T I just checked the BBC site for news of how the English fans are doing in Lille. But no accounts of any trouble.
    But wait. Over on RT they report that the English hooligans have now joined forces with the Russian Ultras to fight the French! Solidarity, non?
    No wonder the BBC are keeping quiet about it.

  84. Almannysbunnet says:

    Something else that happened in the last 24hrs. Michael Gove’s father has denied claims made by his son that the family fish processing business was destroyed by EU fisheries policies. He said he sold the business voluntarily because of a number of different factors including dockworkers strikes and competing for space at Aberdeen harbour with oil vessels.

    So Laura Kuenssberg, where did you get the story about sitting down with the family over “rollies”. I knew you’d never been to Aberdeen, rollies my arse. Mair BBC tripe!

  85. Almannysbunnet says:

    Oops forgot the link to the Gove story.

  86. shiregirl says:

    …o/t – apologies but the day gets even stranger.

    Reading Craig Murray’s blog. Was unaware Freud shared an office with Cyril Smith…and even stranger that he owned a Villa in Portugal in Playa de Luiz when Madeleine McCann went missing – even befriending The McCanns after the ‘disappearance’. A coincidence that the McCann’s spokesman is apparently employed by Freud’s son…

    It seems quite odd – is there truth in this?

  87. mike cassidy says:

    Something else happened.

    A journalist went to a Donald Trump rally.

    Brexit with guns.

  88. mike cassidy says:

    Sorry, not a journalist.

    An academic.

  89. mumsyhugs says:

    So just more of the same old same old then – sniff – anybody got any more popcorn? 🙂

  90. Black Joan says:

    And STILL the BBC averts its eyes from the Tory Election Fraud story.

    I now think this is deliberate policy so that whichever side loses the referendum can jump up and down shouting and pointing out that there was never a mandate for an EU referendum in the first place. So the result is invalid. Whatever it is.

    What happens next is anyone’s guess. Just don’t expect any truthful analysis from the state propagandist.

  91. Valerie says:


    The story seems to be so ‘re Freud and McCann link. Lots running with the story now.

    All very odd, and I don’t really believe in that type of coincidence.

    I find it incredibly odd that Freud made a point of befriending the McCanns after their daughter’s disappearance.

    The McCanns have said they are shocked by the revelation.

  92. Vambomarbeleye says:

    Gove on BBC
    According to him we haven’t elected any one to EU parliament. We are ruled my unelected faceless people. Thinking he’s talking about the House of Lords.

  93. shiregirl says:


    “I find it incredibly odd that Freud made a point of befriending the McCanns after their daughter’s disappearance.”

    Very odd indeed. And Mitchell(The McCann’s mouthpiece) works for Freud’s son. The more you read, the more uncanny peculiarities there appear to be – surely they all can’t be down to chance…

    Without wanting to sound all tin-foil hattish, I think this, if true, may be the tip of the iceberg

  94. Ian Brotherhood says:

    What will happen if UEFA hoof England (the team) out of the fitba but the team and fans refuse to go back to England (the country)? And what if they do comply, try to leave France, but people in England (the country) refuse to take them back?

    What happens then?


  95. Robert Peffers says:

    @Rev Stu:
    “Did we miss anything?”

    Well! Matter of fact you did – and it is absolutely bloody hilarious.

    Conrad Proctor has just been spared a jail term after chasing a councillor down the street with a running chain saw while threatening to cut the councillor’s head off.

    But that’s not the hilarious bit.

    Conrad Proctor brandished the chain saw at Councillor Paul O’Kane because Councillor Paul O’Kane was campaigning for former party leader Jim Murphy in Barrhead, East Renfrewshire on 6 April last year during the last year’s general election.

    However, instead of a financial reward, and commendation for valour, Proctor was given a Community Payback Order at Paisley Sheriff Court.

  96. Gfaetheblock says:

    And sturgeon got critisised for scaremongering to save a union

  97. Marco McGinty says:

    “One of the things that we’ve seen from the Leave Campaign, as we’ve got closer and closer to the vote, is ramping up the fear, turning it up to eleven.”

    Michael Gove there, making a cunt of himself, and no-one seemed to notice.

  98. AlbertaScot says:

    Cuz I don’t really have a dog in this UEFA fight (no Tartan Army, no Canuckleheads, of course)I’ve been on the sidelines up until now.

    But after Marseille and now Lille, I’m kinda warming up to the Russian Ultras.

    Coming to the defence of that prescious flower of the Russian Republic, Maria Sharapova, and all that.

    If only for all the whining they are stirring up among the Brexit chanters.

    Both the drunk ones in France and their drunk with power comrades at the H of C.

    There’s only one Vladimir Putin, etc., etc., ad nauseam.

  99. Dr Jim says:

    Jobs doomed, oil and gas doomed, no future in oil, we’re doomed

    Funny thing though according to Bloomberg the worlds money markets have been making their biggest investment returns in

    OIL @ 30% Yield,for the last three months
    and still being advised to invest, so much so the UK Government has invested in…wait for it….Norwegian oil companies, while at the same time keeping the tax reins tight on UK Oil and Gas
    What can it all mean?

    Somebody more cynical than me might suggest Independence is right around the corner and the deal with the Tory Brexiteers is done on the understanding Scotland might have to find the dosh to invest in it’s own oil apres separation because the UK of England is putting their money elsewhere
    as part of the Independence agreement with David Cameron, Oops! did I say David Cameron, yes I did coz I believe he’s as much in favour of the EU as Nigel Farage and Purring She who will remain nameless

    If circumstances fall in the right order there’s likely to be no resistance or argument put up by the UK Establishment to Scottish Independence except a token one

    But then again that would have to be somebody more cynical than me

  100. scotspine says:

    @ Allmannysbunnet.

    I haven’t seen any of that story with Gove and keunssberg (however you spell that).

    Being from Aberdeen, can someone inform me what the fuck a “rollie” is?

    Is it by chance a corruption of the Aberdeen word “Rowie”?

    If that is the case, a “Rowie” or “Butterie” is just that, a “Rowie” (pronounced Rauee)or “Butterie”. Not a fucking “Rollie”, whatever that is.

    Its a bit like the Anglicisation someone picked up on the other day with EBC in North Briton Broadcasting referring to the “Haud Again” Roundabout in Aberdeen. As a youngster, that roundabout was referred to as (phonetically) “Haad ee gaan”. That means “hold you going”, “keep going”, or “Keep straight on”.

    EBC in North Britain, your attention to detail stinks like the shithouse door of an Aberdeen trawler on a hot summers day.

  101. Chris says:

    Agree with the other comments Rev’s first sentence, quite antagonistic.

    It was an attack on LGBT humans, not all humans. Going by the reports, this club was picked out specifically and performed out of hatred to the LGBT community.

    Having read the article that it’s linked to I think that the author is correct in saying that Owen Jones was emotional and sensitive but that doesn’t mean he was wrong.

  102. Capella says:

    At least the flotilla on the Thames is providing a bit of amusement, or sniggering to be more accurate:

  103. sandycraig says:

    I met a guy I know well today. His son, former navy man, has been working in the oil industry for a few years now.

    He has not worked since January but has been on full pay all that time. I have no idea what his job is but it must be pretty important.

    A couple of weeks ago he phoned his boss to find out if there was any work going, as he was going nuts staying at home all the time.

    He was told to hang on until July/August when there will be major contracts sealed for worldwide oil work which will also benefit the North Sea.

    Let’s hope that is true.

  104. galamcennalath says:

    STV poll

    Want a second indyref: 47%
    Don’t want a second indyref: 45%

    My spin on it .. 55% of Scots are not opposed to a 2nd referendum.

    No less valid than their spin!

  105. Fred says:

    Dearyfuckinme! Jim Sillars, there’s wiser eatin grass!

  106. mealer says:

    Ian Brotherhood 7.03

    I think the most likely outcome in the scenario you describe,would be for the Brexit Fleet currently in the Thames to set sail for Dunkirk and lift the plucky Brits off the beaches.

  107. Effijy says:

    Sky news shows French Police using batons and tear gas on
    drunken English fans.

    They go on to back up the louts by saying there has only minor incidents?
    Have you ever seen a minor incident that had tear gas involved it?

    They also came up with this most bizarre statement that I have ever heard, ” Around 200 English Fans charged around the corner, as they thought the loud Bang they heard was a firework set of by Russians” ? They ran around the corner to confront them, if they had let it off? What the F***?

    Moving on, they don’t know why the English fans behaved like this but there are Russian Fans in town, somewhere?

    Absolute gibberish and denial of the obvious, English Football Fans act like thugs every time they travel abroad.

  108. JB says:


    Frau Keunssberg was in Peterhead as well as Aberdeen. In the Broch (Fraserburgh) a Roll is what an Aberdonian would call a Rowie. They are also called Rollies as the local dialect can add ‘ies’ to many nouns. Peterhead tends to favour the Broch pronounciation.

    Here endeth the lesson.

  109. Robert J. Sutherland says:


    On further reflection, my response to you at 17:30 was a little too simplistic. While it’s true that the immediate effect of a win for Brexit will be hard-Tory + kipper heaven (and woe betide us in the process) I should also have recalled Macmillan’s wry observation “events, dear boy, events”.

    I had temporarily forgotten that Leave have seriously over-promised in their mendacious campaign, so if they do win, in the couple of years after the Union Jack flag-waving party is long over, the hangover will be getting steadily worse, not better. They can’t possibly deliver anything remotely like what they have been selling the gullible. In that critical period, anything then could happen to the popular mood in Scotland.

    Given the way the polls are going, Brexit seems to be the most likely scenario. It does offer some promise for indy, but is definitely a harder row to hoe.

    That having been said, there still must be a significant majority for “Remain” in Scotland for indy to get any traction.

  110. Bob Mack says:


    Are you saying that the awful killing of LBGT victims is somehow different than the 218 elderly murdered by Dr Harold Shipman because they were elderly ?. They were all human beings.

  111. scotspine says:

    The way that the MSM are attempting to defend these drunken fucktards who are in France “supporting” England makes me want to set to work digging a giant water filled ditch along the border between our two countries, so I don’t physically have to be associated with them.

    The whole “Britain”, “British” thing utterly revolts me.

  112. Kevin Evans says:


    I wish I could sit on my arse and get paid for it.

    As far as the poor oil workers losing there jobs. I’ve had to listen to that bullshit from them for months. The poor me oil workers that are struggling and don’t know how there gonna cope. When things were good and they were creaming the profits from an oil industry being wasted by Westminster they didn’t think forward. I mean seriously if I was on there wages I would have saved money for a rainy day but they thought the milk and honey would keep coming and most I spoke to in the oil industry voted “no” and a good few were very aggressive at anyone who suggested “yes” might be the way. As I quoted norways oil fund and how the wisely kept there oil money and made a fund it was ridiculed and shouted at by many Aberdeen oil workers. Well hell mend them. But as they sit in there £500,000 properties so worried as to how there gonna cope they should maybe take a drive around glasgow or the central region and open there eyes to real suffering and people struggling.

  113. Croompenstein says:

    Dearyfuckinme! Jim Sillars, there’s wiser eatin grass!

    The awl cunt is needing pit oot to grass.. or sail in to the sunset in the Robert Burns..

  114. Almannysbunnet says:

    scotspine says:7:32 pm
    @ Allmannysbunnet.

    I’m an Aberdonian too and had never heard of a “rollie” until Laura mentioned it in a BBC piece (now corrected to rowie). She must read wings 🙂

  115. Titler says:

    Regarding the comment about LGBT, if the rumours swirling from some of the victims are true, the killer had apparently attended before and was struggling with his own sexuality; so yes, it absolutely was a specific attack against that lifestyle. That there was a claimed religious element would just be another example of someone desperately trying to “pray the gay away”.

    Regarding Brexit… oh god, what can I say? What on earth made David Cameron think to schedule the referendum in the middle of the Euro football tournament? It was obviously going to feed into the isolationist sentiment, even if it wasn’t hijacked by the hooligan far right elements… which from what I’m reading in the news, it absolutely has been again in Lille.

    And for all the talk of “Project Fear 2”, how did they not understand that the UKIP/Murdoch/Mail wing does down and dirty and deliberately deceptive better than anyone? Why did Cameron decide to pick this fight when they clearly didn’t have any kind of positive campaign ready? The only thing that makes sense to me is he badly miscalculated how the campaign becoming toxic would swing the electorate against him; after all, it didn’t move the polls too much against the status quo in Scotland…

    But I wouldn’t be so pleased with the suffering of “yoons” down south folks; if it is Brexit, and sadly all the signals I’m seeing suggest it might be, it’s going to be an economic disaster, and even if Scotland gets independence (which I would support, if you voted to remain but were dragged out) then the collapse of what would still be your most important trading partner into poverty enshrined nationalist idiocy isn’t going to be good for anyone in these isles.

    Count me as a reluctant vote for Remain, and an absolutely terrified resident of what isn’t likely to be a UK for long. Still taking people north of the border?

  116. Robert J. Sutherland says:


    I believe Cameron didn’t expect to have to hold this referendum at all. He thought he was going to have another coalition with the FibDems, and this was going to be one of his policy “sacrificial lambs”. Then he found himself landed with it. Just like the Brexiteers will get landed with their Disneyland fantasy – or should I follow Banksy and say Dismaland?

    Yes, of course come on up. We can use all the smart immigrants we can get!

  117. Scotspine says:


    Cheers Min’

  118. AlbertaScot says:

    Over here Suncor (big integrated energy outfit with gas stations, refineries and a serious play in the oil sands) just did a big underwriting for $2.5 billion.

    Not saying what the money’s for but the stockies say the deal was totally oversubscribed and they could have trousered twice as much.

    They’re either going to take a run at something, blow off debt or give me a big, fat, Jesus dividend (I’ve got a few shares).

    I’m not booking a holiday on Door No. 3 opening.

    But what I’m saying is, the Oil Patch ain’t quite dead yet.

    And after the players have kissed their balance sheet booboos better, the North Sea will ramp up again. Believe it.

    Which is how it always is in the Patch.

    The old hands who have been through it a time or two make hay while the sun shines and squirrel away some nuts. (Don’t ya hate mixed metaphors)

    The dumb ass young guys who got locked into payments for trucks, quads, RVs, Skidoos, maxed-out credit cards (just gotta take the old lady to Cancun or Vegas), etc. believing the boom would never end, are the ones suffering.

  119. shiregirl says:

    @Kevin Evans

    Just a couple of points. My partner is an oil worker. He was laid off last September and as there was no chance at that time of a job doing what he did, he did anything he could to bring in money. He is working again – just last month, only to be told last week he is going onto a three day week.

    We voted Yes. As did the vast majority of his then work mates.

    Not many oil workers I know live in 500k houses. The MD’s or CEO’s, perhaps but riggers and drillers don’t. We live in a very modest house.

    Please don’t that not all oil workers are loaded and judge. We certainly aren’t and as for saving for a rainy day? I wish! Trying to pay a mortgage and bring up four kids is hard for us and there is very little money left over. Having been brought up in a shithole scheme myself, I am well aware of suffering, cheers. There are areas all over Scotland deprived, socially and economically – not just Glasgow and central belt.

  120. Tinto Chiel says:

    Thanks for the Der Spiegel stuff, galamcennalath.

    I noticed the following with great interest. Pity no one seems to have told the British Establishment:

    “Should Great Britain indeed vote to leave the EU, Scotland could call for another independence referendum such as the one that failed in 2014. Scotland could then apply for EU membership on its own. Because Scotland has already implemented EU law, such a process could proceed quickly.”

    Wie Schade!

  121. Chris says:

    @Bob Mack

    Yes, it was different in the way that Harold Shipman targeted old people and Omar Mateen targeted the LGBT people.

    I’m not suggesting that they are in competition only that a specific group of humans were the target.

  122. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    shiregirl @ 20:26,

    You make a fair point. It’s easy to stigmatise with a broad brush and almost inevitably incorrect, as we saw with the same debate over the 65-plussers already.

    The problem with a boom town is that everyone has to keep up with the big spenders whether they like it or not. It’s no problem to forego going out to eat in a restaurant that’s pre-booked weeks in advance (as was reportedly happening), but impossible to escape paying for a place to raise a family in. Inflated house prices are a curse, not a blessing.

    You just happen to live in an area that had become a little too complacent and selfish over its own relative prosperity, as the indyref clearly revealed. So perhaps you can understand the feeling of some elsewhere who were never so well-off that it is now rather reaping what it had sown. But we are all in it together (to coin a phrase), so we have to share the load. And just hope that good done now will have its fair reward in due course. (Which isn’t always the case in politics, alas.)

    It’s not even as though Aberdeen has visibly benefitted from all that money flowing through. I knew the city well in the old days, and eg. Union Street now is a pathetic shadow of what it used to be.

  123. Ghillie says:

    They are all barking mad.

    Apologies to overly in-bred dogs everywhere.

  124. Bob Mack says:


    “Group of humans” That’s right.

  125. Joannie says:

    I think Bob Geldof has unwittingly damaged the Remain campaign today, and thus unwittingly helped the cause of Scottish nationalism.

    Ironic that, given that he stuck his unwanted nose into the Scottish referendum on the NO side.

  126. Tam Jardine says:

    schrodinger’s cat 5.35pm

    “if brexit, all of the arguments amongst us must cease. the next 12 months will offer us the best chance ever to win our independence.”

    Exactly. We have complained about the democratic deficit of endless tory governments without a mandate in Scotland. Being withdrawn from he EU against our will is the democratic deficit on steroids. Whether some think the circumstances are not ideal or its too soon or we have to wait until the polls shift or whatever reason- we all need to grit out teeth vote Remain and pray for brexit.

    As the cat says- we may never get a better chance. Businesses looking at staying in Europe are starting to wake up to the lifeboat. Do you think Nicola and her team will be unable to capitalise on companies like Diageo softening their position?

    The bottom line is that Scotland needs her Independence to protect future generations from Westminster. That was true 2 years ago and it is true today. Next indy ref is gonna be like T2 with the old enemies of indy assembling on our side.

    We have a window of opportunity that is only opened by a strong remain vote up here. And unlike the general elections and Scottish elections EVERY IN vote up here opens that window a fraction and EVERY LEAVE vote pushes it closed a fraction. Let’s jemmy that bastard wide enough for a hale country to fit through.

    To reiterate SC’s excellent call for unity- we need some catchy hashtag slogan to get off the ground running… to encompass uniting to escape from the most right wing government this country will ever have seen and seize our chance to become the Sovereign Independent Nation State we should be- we should always have been.

    It has to be shorter than that obviously.

    Finally- can I suggest a hastily arranged Wings Congress next Saturday night if indeed the window is opened wide enough to squeeze through?

  127. MJS Dundee says:


    I suspect they’re referring to rollmop herring. Fillets of pickled herring rolled up and stuck like that with wee sticks. The name is German, a very common food around the Baltic and North sea areas inc Scotland since medieval times.

    It’s been a good while now since herring were around the East Coast here in numbers (fished out well before the EU – to stay vaguely on topic), but there was a time when rollmops would have been very common the East Coast. Hung around the West Coast and North a good bit longer. Not aware they were ever anything special in and around Aberdeen specifically.

    Meanwhile Vote Remain seem really really desperate by now, today I get a mailing saying only one thing – “Don’t let Farage speak for You”.

    There’s no positive message at all, just a single big Farage fearting. That’s it.

    How incredibly rubbish Vote Remain are. I knew this wasn’t going to go well way back and as soon as one bunch of them called themselves Britain Stronger in Europe – failing to notice the obvious BSE/mad cow acronym.

    If there is Brexit, then at the end of the day it’s no one’s fault other than generations of rubbish UKOK politicos who do support the EU and have done nothing to counter the constant dribble of anti-eu propaganda from the swivel-eyed.

    They themselves have too often been very quick to undermine the EU whenever they needed an excuse for their own failures – the Big EU done it and ran away, honest … . Decade after decade they’ve done precious little to educate the UK population about the good it does. (And it does a lot of good – in UKOKland you only ever get/got the bad news).

    Aye, well …, here comes the reaping of that which those generations of useless UKOKers’ have sown. And a damned mess of very serious proportions it is. A’ they brass plates in Dublin are being polished as we speak. And never have we needed to get the F out of the UK as much as we do now. The uselessness of them is by now surely beyond any doubt/question.

  128. Thepnr says:

    I read a post earlier tonight from Vestas at 6:09 and have to admit at being a bit skeptical of one his claims.

    From what I’m seeing in the East Midlands (Leicester) then Leave wins probably 65-35. Notable is the support for Brexit from all generations of current Indian/Pakistani immigrants. There is widespread support amongst them for restricting all immigration – including Indian/Pakistani immigrants.

    Well, I was reading that on the train on my way to N.E. England for a few days work. I had a taxi booked from the train station to take me to the hotel and we had a chat along the way.

    His name was Abdul, I knew that before even meeting him as the taxi (private hire) company send you a text with the car registration and name of the driver when he arrives.

    Anyway to get to the point, Abdul was Asian and I later found out that he was an immigrant from Pakistan that came to the UK 37 year ago. I never mentioned the referendum to him, he brought it up with me.

    “What do you think of the referendum” he asked. “well I’ll be voting to stay as will my wife and kids” “There all voting leave up here” he said. So I asked why.

    “It’s the immigrants, there’s just too many. Nobody up here is making any money and the immigrants who are working are sending money out the country and not spending it here. The rest are on benefits and shouldn’t be here anyway.”

    “We also give the EU billions every week and get nearly nothing back.”

    Must admit to being a wee bit taken aback. Thought maybe he was a one off so on leaving the taxi asked one last question “What are your family, friends and community voting?” and got the answer “We’ll vote leave, everybody is.”

    Camerons days appear numbered, I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

  129. sinky says:

    O/t BBC news French police use tear gas on English fans.. not more misbehaving by English supporters in Lille tonight

  130. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Thepnr –


    Online bookies shifting – ‘remain’ still odds-on, but down to 1-2, from 1-3 for most of last week:

  131. Chris says:

    @Bob Mack

    Only in this instance they weren’t targeted for being any groups of humans, they were targeted for being homosexual.

    That’s the point that Owen Jones was being cut off from making and I’m confused as to why it’s disputed.

    If a maniac was on rampage killing all ‘Bob Macks’ in the world then you’d surely take it more personally than myself.

  132. schrodingers cat at 5.35

    You mean they will try to bluff. According to the UN Charter they cannot stop us having a referendum.

  133. Fireproofjim says:

    English “fans” rioting again in Lille tonight
    Yesterday I saw a bus full of Russian fans being stopped by French police. It had in the window a flag saying “Russia – No Surrender”.
    The mind boggles. These Orangemen and Putin. We’re a’ doomed.

  134. shiregirl says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland 2110

    Yes – I agree, there are a few idiots out there who think foregoing the third holiday this year as they need to watch their pennies is ‘hard times’. But like you said, this isn’t representative of all oil workers. I know of a good few oil workers who were by no means well off now tinning soup as there are no jobs – if they decided to drill for oil in Fochabers, they have the work force in situ!

    I’m scunnered with the situation. Trained and time served men ready and able to work, but no jobs. Apprentices just finished three years of basically no pay and nothing to go into. It’s dire and something needs to give.

    Union Street – an utter disgrace! Full of cash converter shops and looks really rundown. Not sure where the money has gone, but it bypassed Union St.

  135. Inverclyder says:

    Thepnr @ 9:58

    Immigrants are voting to leave the EU even if they’ve been there for 37 years the guy will still be considered an immigrant.

    I’ve checked with the local turkey farm and the turkeys have announced they are all in favour of Christmas this year.

    Whatever happens Scotland will get the blame after they eject the pig fancier.

  136. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Serious question – if English fans kick off tonight, and there’s clear evidence of it, will tomorrow’s match against Wales still go ahead?

  137. Tam Jardine says:


    Maybe the English support want to be kicked out of the competition to secure a Leave vote next Thursday.

    It is a pretty volatile situation and national fervour of any kind, whether it is victimhood, victory, disqualification, drama or defeat is the last thing the Remain camp down south surely want from the Euros. The trouble is that these competitions tend to be eventful and emotional for all fans but English fans in particular.

    It makes you wonder why on earth Cameron picked to hold the EU vote slap bang in the middle of this tournament!

  138. Bob Mack says:


    No I would not take it personally. I wonder why you do. Is LBGT more worthy of pity than any other group ?

    Hard metal fans did not take it personally when the Bataclan in Paris was subjected to the same.

    Perhaps the Rev has a valid point after all Re Mr Jones.

  139. Chris says:


    Suncor – and that’s before the cost of the Fort Mac fire which is hitting them for near $1 billion according to reports.

    Anyway, what’s a Scotsman in Alberta doing supporting the Canucks!? All about the Flames 😉

    I came here in January last year, going home next month. Been pretty much the worst time I could’ve come here for work.

  140. Jim McIntosh says:

    Oops, at the end of BBC 10 o’clock news pictures of riot police charging English fans in Lens. Interesting times.

  141. schrodingers cat says:

    dear mr Jardine
    Im no angel either, i give as good as i get, but thanks for the vote of confidence,

    seriously folks, we live in strange times and this is an opportunity, a gift horse we cant look in the mouth

    it is time to get organised, all of the groups we belong to will be energised by a brexit, and i think the time is ripe that we talk face to face. we need a scotland wide wos meeting to discuss the way forward
    an open space where we can speak freely and not be constricted by the written word

    not strathclyde, not lothian and not the wall… stirling is my preference and the compair… stu

    time to hatch out our forward plan, an for once, i dont think we can do this online

    “Finally- can I suggest a hastily arranged Wings Congress”

    seconded, the time and place to be decided by wos

  142. Tam Jardine says:

    Ian Brotherhood

    They’ve already kicked off- have just watched footage of maybe a hundred of the CRS riot cops charging English fans through the centre of Lille.

    I somehow cannot imagine Uefa having the teeth to actually kick them out but if they don’t now what signal does that send out?

    If England get kicked out of the tournament then the house will be getting shoved on Leave- if that is they are still taking bets by the time I get to the bookies.

  143. Thepnr says:


    Yes your right the guy will likely always be considered an immigrant but he doesn’t see it that way.

    I don’t know how much time you may have spent around the N.E. of England but the deprivation in some areas look worse to me than the poorest parts of Scotland.

    Hartlepool, Middlesbrough and Sunderland have real problems that like us are ignored by Westminster.

    I’m usually one for looking up figures but can’t be arsed right now so will rely on the evidence of my own eyes for now. I was also here back in April and then is when I first heard any talk of the EU referendum and it was Leave I was hearing.

    It seems to have taking hold and I think the N.E. will vote Leave in big numbers. Whether the people I am hearing from actually vote or not is a different story but Cameron must be worried.

  144. ScottieDog says:

    So wonder how long it will take the English electorate to see that the reason for its economic malaise is neoliberalism and not the fact that we are a member of the EU.
    If BoJo and co say that the restrictive spending policies imposed by the Maastricht treaty will be reversed post brexit I will say I was wrong and embrace brexit. We all know that this isn’t their motive however.

    Perhaps the English will put their next malaise down to the thieving jocks and get rid of us when they realise brexit hasn’t solved their problems.

    Just hope Nicola doesn’t pander to those (NO voting) corporations backing remain. She needs to look at Iceland as a model of a small nation prioritising its citizens above all else. That means a sovereign currency.

  145. Chris says:

    Okay, I’m surprised you wouldn’t find this preposterously bizarre attack personal but it’d still (surely!) be on your mind more than it would mine.

    You’ve brought up another despicable shooting that again has different details to the one in question.

    If you believe that this was random and not a direct attack as a hate crime on the LGBT community then fair enough but I believe you are wrong.

    I’m going back to using this website as a way to track our proximity to Independence rather than debate RSC’s more controversial remarks.

  146. mr thms says:

    From Misreporting Scotland this evening…

    Despite unemployment falling by 11,000 in the last quarter, they ran with a story about how unemployment is WORSE in Scotland compared to the U.K.

    (Funny how they never compare NHS Scotland A&E performance with the A&E performance of the NHS in the rest of the U.K.)

    They omitted to tell their viewers that unemployment in the UK fell by 20,000 in the last quarter and that Scotland (with a 10th of the population) accounted for 11,000 of that total, as well as these facts…

    “Labour Market Statistics for February to April 2016 show that:

    • Scotland continues to outperform the rest of the UK on female employment rates;
    • Scotland has the second highest employment rate out of the four UK nations with 143,000 more people in employment compared with 2010.
    • Scotland outperforms the rest of the UK on youth employment, unemployment and inactivity rates.
    • The youth unemployment rate has decreased to 13.4 per cent over the year.”

  147. Sandy says:

    Just read that the father of the English hooligan/thug jailed for three months in France claiming he was acting in self-defence ‘FOR THROWING SEVEN BOTTLES’ – TWATS, both father & son.
    How about a month’s jail for each bottle thrown.

  148. scotspine says:

    English Fans……

    BBC and Sky msm reporting on “HUNDREDS” of French riot Police charging England fans….

    Are we meant to feel sorry for these pricks?

    Fuck me! if I was French, Id want THOUSANDS of riot Police charging these fudricks causing trouble in my Country.

    As a former Scottish cop, these England fans remind me on the fuckits you encounter on any weekend might in a town centre. Happy to throw their weight around and behave as thuggish, annoying cunts , but the minute they are challenged, it’s the Police’s fault. Police Brutality…..waaaaaah, waaaaaaah. Boo hoo.

    I hope they get thrashed senseless by the CRS. No mercy.

    Oh, and I hope the Westminster Govt doesn’t think my taxes should go towards providing these bell ends with legal aid, transport home etc.

    They made their bed etc..

  149. Inverclyder says:

    Thepnr @10:49pm

    Visit Blyth in Northumberland.

    It’s like Paisley with even less soap!

  150. louis.b.argyll says:

    England-shire needs high quality trading partners.

    Just draw that line, chaps, and we’ll unlock a wealth of commerce.

    Let us lead, happy to be bold in small measures, raising the bar, independent of thought, uniting only for equal advancement.

  151. Thepnr says:


    Ouch, that’s an awfy thing to say but I think it means we’re in agreement.

  152. Will vote to stay,

    feel defiled by being in the same team as Blue and Red Tories,Corrupt Business Leaders,actors,musicians,Gordon Brown,

    but the most sickening by far are the Scottish cringe Uncle Tam`s of the journalist/hack variety.

  153. Vambomarbeleye says:

    Hope that the link works. It’s Patrick Stewart on you tube. What’s the ECHR ever done for us.

  154. Gfaetheblock says:

    Ian Brotherhood:

    If they kick off in the stadium, then it is a UEFA matter and could get kicked out. This is the situation Russia is in due to the in stadium violence at the stade velodrome.

    They have kicked off in the streets of Lille, the is a French police matter, so would have no recourse to punish the football team.

  155. donnywho says:

    Just watched France 24 FTE equivalent of news 24, on the EU debate in the UK. Strange to listen to foreigners debating clearly and honestly without BBC spin. A breath of fresh air!

    Was looking to see what France thought of the “British not English Fans not Thugs”.

  156. Tackety Beets says:

    LOL , happy memories there , used to do a gig in ’70s for teens on a Friday night .
    Imagine 200 teens singing full pelt To Pistols “Fringin’ in Rigin’ ”
    Seams so long ago especially now I enter a new decade and looking for my bus pass!

    I’ve had many interesting conversations on Twitter recently with some OOT folk.

    Paula Rose always steps in and sorts me out.

    I have always felt euro sceptic and voting wi yon Bacon basher gies me the boke!

    Thanks again Derek M @ 2.56 pm for bringing me back tonight.

    Anyone speed reading pop back up & re-read Derek’s post.

    I’m back for a Remain vote & hope rUK vote OOT

  157. Still Positive. says:

    Gfaetheblock @ 11.46

    Totally correct on the rules. But the rules need to be changed in my humble opinion.

    If fans are causing mayhem in the city, or its environs, where the match is played then they should be subject to the rules of UEFA.

    After all most of the trouble appears to be on the streets.

  158. Kevin Evans says:


    I was not generalising oil workers in general but the oil workers I have met and spoken too.

    I might not have met your husband and I know of oil work who supported yes but while in Aberdeen working the majority of oil workers I met would interrupt conversations I was having with people about indyref and would become very aggressive and dismissive of the arguments and crisitism of westminters stewardship of the North Sea.

    The thing that really annoys me is the oil workers had a perfect template on what Westminster does to Scottish industry with the ship building on the Clyde. And to use your own quote “I’m scunnered with the situation. Trained and time served men ready and able to work, but no jobs. Apprentices just finished three years of basically no pay and nothing to go into. It’s dire and something needs to give.” Westminters have form on this but ignorance from oil workers who were “am alright jack” at the time choose to ignore this. After the ship building was cast off as a hassle to westminster (Norway has a ship building industry) people in glasgow really suffered, I mean starving childern, poverty and no jobs what so ever.

    Am glad your husband has found work my experiance was no direct attack on you or your family and I wish you all the best in the future.

    I only hope once the oil industry picks up again his work mates who the union have learned there lesson.

  159. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Tackety Beets.

    I was playing “Friggin'” in the Bowlin’ Alley in Dundee from when it came out on single and then in Jaspers rock club in the first half of the 90s.

  160. donnywho says:

    The BBC at it’s best… England fan Oliver Larkworthy, from Norwich, is in Lille and was caught up when police fired tear gas at fans at the city’s railway station.

    “I saw a massive crowd running down the street – English fans, Slovakian fans and locals mainly, a real mix,” he said.

    “There is a massive mob of Russian fans standing outside the station just waiting to cause trouble.

    So you have a stationary “mob” of Russians viciously waiting for a running crowd of “fans” some English.

    Not saying if the Russians are innocent… but i respectfully suggest that “running fans” are harder to avoid than a “stationary mob”

  161. Paula Rose says:

    @Tackety Beets who is you on twitty Honey?

  162. yesindyref2 says:

    Mmm, from the Grun Gove article: “A second anti-EU flotilla is due to sail down the Clyde into Glasgow on Friday

    Now, here’s a real opportunity for Cameron and Fallon to show their mettle and probably win over a lot of Scots to the idea of Trident. I can see it now, loudspeakers from the banks of the Clyde warning the flotilla to evacuate their boats immediately, and then “up periscope, bearing, mark, fire one”.

    Mmm, just noticed this: “sail down the Clyde into Glasgow”, so where’s it coming from, Cambuslang? Poor Severin.

  163. CmonIndy says:

    There’s an awful lot of predictions on this thread for a Brexit win.
    You do realise that the Establishment will not allow this scenario to happen. All will be done, legal and illegal, to stop the result being so declared.
    We should all know this.

  164. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland
    Yes I’ve mixed views about the Brexit, but my point was about the scaremongering itself – by both sides. That’s got to be good news as it could make any scaremongering in Indy Ref 2 totally counter-productive.

    Totally agree about all the oil workers voting NO, as did rugby players and enthusiasts, golfers, the elderly, those comfortably off, immigrants, emigrants, war enthusiasts, supporters of nuclear power, and a whole host of other things.

    By my calculations only 7 people voted YES and they’re all deid – and buried in Knoydart (or Culloden).

  165. alexicon says:

    Totally agree about all the oil workers voting NO, as did rugby players and enthusiasts, golfers, the elderly, those comfortably off, immigrants, emigrants, war enthusiasts, supporters of nuclear power, and a whole host of other things.

    Sorry can’t find the original post from ‘other’

    I can assure you that not all the oil workers voted no.
    I am an oil worker and campaign hard offshore in the run up to the referendum.
    In my experience most of the contracting Scottish workers voted YES. Even last week I was discussing with an Aberdonian offshore contract worker, who I had just met, and he voted YES.

    Maybe there was a bigger proportion of client workers voted no, but I’m pretty sure that the majority of contract workers voted YES.
    My take on why the majority of contractors voted YES is that we see a lot of outsiders taking Scottish jobs and using their earning to boost their local economies where they stay.

  166. Almannysbunnet says:

    For those cringing at the thought of voting “with” Pork Scratchins stop thinking of it like that. If you think your choice is voting with Cameron or with Farage you’ll end up in the mad hoose. Think of it as voting with Nicola.

    It’s time to “lie back and think of Scotland”.

    Vote remain and keep your eye on the long game.

  167. Auld Snody says:

    Could the real reason behind Brexit be to break up the UK.
    The creation of the city state of Londinium. A pirates hideaway, a free booters paradise, fuelled by offshore banking, money laundering and cheap immigrant labour. And Boris the Pirate King installed on the throne.

  168. Kevin Evans says:


    What people say and what people do are two different things.

    Someone on here just prior to the indyref vote made the comment that if there is a no vote it will be like France after WW2 and every French man claiming to be in the resistance.

    With today’s circumstances in the oil industry I doubt no voters will admit there no vote and look like the fools they were.

    The 55% are everywhere. Don’t let them fool ya. Half the punters in the street you walk down voted no.

  169. starlaw says:

    auld snody
    Got it in one, Londinium it is all about City for the great and good, HS2 will bring in the working scum from Birmingham and other points north. It is happening now watch programmes like How to Get a Council House and Cant Pay Wont Pay. London under Boris’s watch

  170. davidb says:

    @Y2I @ 1am

    Daldowie or Dalmarnock. That’s where the shit enters the river upstream.

  171. JLT says:

    Something has most definitely changed in perception throughout the world since the start of the millenium …and it’s pretty damn nasty.

    It lietrally begs the question …how did it come to this?

    The answer is, a mixture of things. The dominance of Elitist corporations after the perceived victory of Capitlaims over Communism which left America as the world’s hyperpower. Throw in a Western dominated right-wing media; the supposedly dependence on oil; consumerism and the anglicised world desperate to throw it influcence in the Middle East, and the result from it all was greed, corruption, and the rise of anti-Western philosophies in both religious and secular movements.

    And it isn’t over …not by a long shot.

    Europe does indeed stand on a precipice of great change, but not in a good way. The EU is been shaken to its core with the British Referendum on Europe, and what comes from that will shape European policy for teh foreseeable future. With Russia looking on with great interest, it’s influence over Eastern Europe will grow should the EU begin to fragement badly.

    But Britain will also suffer great change. As one commentator said this week, the Brexiteers have unleashed furies that they can no longer contain. Whatever Boris and Farage hope to achieve, will not be the dream that they wish to achieve. Should they win, then new politics and questions will arise from a ‘Brexit’ victory. Having sought and succeeded in gaining independence from Europe, England will question what else can they break away from. Having for years been told by a London based media, that Scotland is a millstone around the necks of the English people, there will be a clamour in some quarters for the dissolution of the Union that will see not only Scotland released, but also that of Wales and Northern Ireland. This is somthing that Boris and Co do not seek, but with the furies that they have unleashed, it may soon dawn on them that this is something that cannot contain, and that this new genie along with the Scottish independence one, is not going back in the bottle either.

    Change can be bitter; even violent. For those down south who wished for an ‘England’ free from external influences …well, they may get their wish …but they will also ralise that in the end, one should also be careful for what they wish for…

  172. Famous15 says:


    “Scum”? No human deserves such pejorative language. My old Latin teacher used to shout at us mischievous top graders “Scum comes to the top” insuting from top to Brum!

  173. Breeks says:

    An Englishman is bored one day, and jumps onto a ferry for a day trip to Calais. It’s still early morning when he gets there, but there’s a cafe open, so he nips in for some breakfast. Looking at the menu, croissants, crepes, he doesn’t really know what it says. He asks for a full English breakfast. His breakfast comes, but the mushrooms are funny, there aren’t any beans or tomatoes, and as for the sausage? It all smells a bit garlicky. “Oh no”, he says, “This just isn’t right”. So he stomps off back to the ferry for home. “Sod Europe, they haven’t a clue and just want to rip me off for my money”, he says in disgust.

    For me, that describes in a nutshell 40 odd years of “British” membership of the EU. It makes staying or leaving the EU something of a moot point because I believe so very few of us actually appreciate what being in Europe actually feels like. We’ve never really “given it a go”, but stayed in the car like some petulant adolescent who didn’t want to come in the first place.

    When I look through the lists of reasons why people want to stay or leave, in both cases I am struck by the selfish, self centred nature of the arguments. Are we really such self centred narrow minded bastards? I’m no angel certainly, but I still like to filter life through the wide perspective. Rather love it in fact.

    I reckon Europe must be holding its breath, hoping at last to be rid of us whinging cheapskates who have to be dragged kicking and screaming to every party or occasion, and fly into a tantrum if we aren’t first to be served the ice cream and jelly. Be gone damned child. What’s the Franco/German word for Good riddance? I forget the word, but it sounds like a champagne cork exiting a bottle…

    I rather suspect a Brexit result which reveal to us all what a slick and professional outfit the EU actually is when they want to be; as they expedite Britains exit from the club with ruthless speed and efficiency. And on a roll, cobble together some ad hoc legislation to bolt the door behind us once we’re gone. Le Chunnel est fermé!

    Comme so, comme ça, for Britain in the EU. You can drag a horse to water and all that…, but it’s the “we” part of being part of that Uk/Britain, call-it-what-you-will, which I’m having trouble with. I am a European. For most of my life, all of my adult like, I have been a European. I wish to remain a European. I have no internal conflict to resolve from being a Scot and European simultaneously, the two fit together hand in glove. It is being British which feels tight across the shoulders and doesn’t button in the middle. Truth be known, my Union Jack waistcoat has never been a favourite, and pretty well hung in the wardrobe since the day I was born, and hasn’t really seen the light of day. Never really been the occasion see? It’s been a situation I was more or less indifferent about, because frankly I never gave it any thought. Now that project Britain is throwing its weight around over Europe, they are forcing me to pick a side, and whichever “British” side prevails, well frankly, it feels like an unwelcome intrusion into my Euroscot love-in. I don’t wish to follow a Brexiter anywhere they want to go, and nor do I need any patronising Remainer to ratify my European birthright. Get your hands off. It’s nothing to do with you.

    To be perfectly honest, the only thing I properly do foresee is a time when somebody finds a brand new hardly ever worn Union Jack waistcoat in a jumble sale. Surplus to requirements. One couldn’t care less owner.

  174. orri says:

    with apologies for it being Daily Mail.

    Just because someone goes in to a gay bar or club and fails to pick someone up it does not mean they had good intents.

    Perhaps Orlando was a simple case of auto-homophopia or outright homophobia. That doesn’t alter the fact that, if the news agencies are telling the truth, representitaves of Daesh are claiming “credit” for it.

  175. Valerie says:


    Good analysis. However, I pity Wales because Plaid are in their infancy, and they don’t have the breadth of talent, we have in our politicians.

    NI has followed Nicolas lead, and said there should be a referendum on Irish reunification, if Brexit.

    Totally agree that if we see Brexit, the EU will be ruthless. Equally, they will welcome Scotland s continued membership.

    More footage of English knuckle dragging footie thugs on Lorraine this morning. She commented the Irish fans were covering themselves in glory.

  176. mealer says:

    Breeks 8.33
    Extremely well put.

  177. Tinto Chiel says:

    “Mmm, just noticed this: “sail down the Clyde into Glasgow”, so where’s it coming from, Cambuslang? Poor Severin.”

    Spooky, yesindyref2, spooky. Cambuslang is an Anglicised form of Gaelic “camas long”: river-bend of ships. And the civic arms of Rutherglen have a galley and seamen on them, from a time when Ru’glen was a bigger port than Glasgow.

    Sadly, Severin would love walking down Main Street there: the old Butcher’s Apron still flies on the town hall flag-pole, something which will have to be changed next May. I hear James Kelly irons it every night.

    JLT: I think your Pandora’s Box assessment is pretty accurate. No one knows where all this crap is going.

    Heard Simon Jack on Pravdasound4 refer to “clusters of expertise” in The City’s pro-Remain financial institutions. Is this why they make piles of money?

    Don’t worry, coat on……

  178. dakk says:

    @ Cmonindy 1.10 am

    ‘You do realise that the Establishment will not allow this scenario to happen’

    Can’t get worked up about Possibility of Brexit either.

    The London Establishment never lose.

  179. Brian Powell says:

    65,000 of those oil workers lost their jobs, voting No worked out well for them.

  180. carjamtic says:

    Brian Powell @ 09:35

    Aye Brian and Westminster keeps spewing out the dinnae worry Scotland,there will be jam tomorrow,when it picks up keek.


  181. Anagach says:

    Brian Powell says:

    65,000 of those oil workers lost their jobs, voting No worked out well for them.

    Those broad shoulders of the Union appear to have a distinct slope to them…

  182. G H Graham says:

    Despite the sneering, jingoistic, Johny Foreigner attitudes in England, Britain’s productivity is a whopping 22% lower than the EU average and a staggering 30% lower than France, Germany & Italy.

    Meanwhile, those Americans with whom we are alleged to have a “special relationship”, are 40% more productive than the British.

    Don’t be surprised then if Europe leaders choose to quietly celebrate that they got rid of one of the worst performing members of the European Union.

  183. galamcennalath says:

    Only politicians are considered less trustworthy than journalists!

    Another significant point is that academics and think tanks are considered reliable by some. These people should be treated with just as much suspicion. Think tanks are usually sponsored by one side and very often far from independent. Academics have a bad habit of talking outside their narrow field of expertise, and being listened to as ‘all knowing’!

  184. heedtracker says:

    You just happen to live in an area that had become a little too complacent and selfish over its own relative prosperity, as the indyref clearly revealed.”

    Its probably wrong to blame the Scottish blue collar worker for stuff what does and doesn’t happen or elections that don’t seem to go to the way you’d think. The simple reason is because there are hardly any Scottish blue collar workers left. And what we have, we cant risk losing.

    Its all just another triumph of Snatcher Thatcherite economics in what is now a fractious region, to the City, where they make the money.

    Goons like Brown had an opportunity to change Thatcherism in his scotland region but that’s not what they were about. And who kept voting the New Labour creep show in, the blue collar worker.

  185. Juteman says:

    Not all ‘oil workers’ are rich No voters.
    This Yes voting onshore support oil worker was laid off without pay 8 weeks ago. My 30 years at the company counted for fuck all. I’m going to have to resign and fight for a redundancy payment. I’ve already cashed in my small pension pot to cover my mortgage. The car has also gone.
    So think before you open your big mouth.

  186. alexicon says:

    Kevin Evans says:
    16 June, 2016 at 7:28 am

    What people say and what people do are two different things.

    Kevin, I am old enough to understand how to read people.
    This was not a case of asking outright and putting people on the spot. The guy I met last week volunteered his allegiance before any YES or SNP commitments were given. We were actually discussing Aberdeen council.
    As did most of the people I met offshore who voted YES before the referendum.
    They were buying SNP raffle tickets and happily wearing YES stickers on their hats.
    You have to understand offshore life to get the fuller picture as tea shack banter can be very cut throat and out in the open. There’s not so much of a secret society offshore, things are discussed out in the open.
    You know who’s who there.

  187. DerekM says:

    @ Tackety Beets

    Your welcome Tackety Beets 🙂

    The dark side is everywhere leaking out little trolls saying vote leave Scotland lots of goodies if you do,well these are tory promises so that means you get nothing except laughed at from them for listening.

    Nope Remain it is then on to give them the biggest constitutional headache this poxy union has ever had as we clobber them with the EU constitution ,either way brexit or remain our EU rights in Scotland are at threat from a member state who cant make its mind up and can no longer speak for us with any credibility inside the EU parliament.

    We lay it on thick full EU membership for Scotland and get the Saltire flying in Brussels.

  188. galamcennalath says:

    Food for thought…

    Ipsos-Mori (Jun 2016)

    With Brexit should there be IndyRef2?


    Men 50% / 45%
    Women 46% / 46%

    18-24 61% / 31%
    25-34 51% / 41%
    35-54 52% / 43%
    55+ 37% / 55%

    Full time 48% / 46%
    Part time 59% / 37%
    Not working 61% / 30%
    Retired 32% / 59%

    Owner occupier 41% / 52%
    Public rental 55% / 36%
    Private rental 60% / 33%

  189. Free Scotland says:

    I clicked on the first link in the article (the Julia Hartley-Brewer piece for the Telegraph) and thoroughly enjoyed the read. There is no way I would waste my money buying the obnoxious rag, but I’ll take good ideas from anyone, and that piece was definitely worth reading.

  190. Ken500 says:

    Oil sector will pick up at the end of the year. After Osbourne tried to destroy it with 60/80% taxes. It is now taxed at 40%. When it is wound down it takes as long to get going again.

    Redundant Oil workers are paying their mortgages with credit cards, even though their wives are working. Some sold up because they were going to work aboard. Then the job fell through. They end up staying with relatives. People are doing extra work, as more people get paid off. Two jobs become one. The jobs are being lost all over Britain. Some people can’t sell their houses. They are trying to rent them and leaving the NE.

    In the NE according to statistics there are more people working. More women are working. Maybe people are not registering for unemployment because they won’t get benefits.

    In the UK there are 1.5Million unemployed, but 3/4Million claimants.

  191. Breeks says:

    So we have now done our best to blame and antagonise the elderly, the Greens, Rise supporters, HMRC employees, Fishermen, Oil workers, women, gays, Borderers, Orcadians and Shetlanders, Bella Caledonia, The National, bridge aficionados, and land owners/ farmers everywhere, and people who went to private school, and the coverall term, ignorant bastards everywhere. Have we missed anybody out or just not got to them yet?

    At least our enemies keep it simple and just blame everything on the SNP.

    Can anybody point me in the direction of the pro Independence lobby which is trying to recruit and build support rather than seeing its different Chapters tarred and feathered for not being hardcore YES enough?

    Who or what is going to spike the Unionist propagandists strutting about our airwaves? When and how do we capture some of the broadcasting spectrum for our message? Who is going to coordinate our pro Indy movement and marshall our disparate resources into a cohesive pro independence voice? Can our small number of UDI enthusiasts reach a work together compromise with our softly, softly “Quietist” SNP lieutenants which doesn’t rely on pistols drawn at dawn? Are we ready and prepared for the swiftness of foot which will be required in 8 days time when the Brexit result is known? If we are in, what do we do? If we are out, what do we do? If it’s Scotland in, UK out, what do we do? The day after we lost our YES vote, I called for SNP to launch a plebiscite to have the people of Scotland define the additional powers which the Unionists pledged to deliver but did not define. That was the second golden opportunity to be missed in 2 days. It was a blank page with a Unionist signature and we meekly let them fill in whatever bland text suited them. We weren’t ready. Weeks passed, and the desperate “Vow” was watered down to worthless irrelevance. We should have nailed them. We could have, but didn’t, and the moment was gone. Just think. With forthright and bold action then, we might by now have held the BBC by the balls and secured free broadcasting for Scotland.

    Will I stop slagging off the SNP? Who knows? Will the SNP man up? And incidentally, will the SNP help me get my fecking flood grant before I’m too old and toothless to put the money to good use? It’s June. The floods were in January FFS. Please don’t tell me it’s coming by train…

  192. Ken500 says:

    Many Oil workers voted YES. The incomers voted NO. There is a higher proportion of incomers on the East coast. Aberdeen (Oil) and Edinburgh (finance). Project Fear etc. The promise of Home Rule.

    If the SNP could get FFA, rid of Trident, the UK tax Laws enforced and minimum pricing. There are ways to raise money for public services. Council tax etc. Scotland could be better off. Why Westminster just doesn’t agreed? At least the SNP can hold them to account.

  193. Ken500 says:

    Why do people who support Independence keep on attacking the SNP? An own goal.

  194. yesindyref2 says:

    @alexicon (and @Juteman)
    I was being ironic, in response to other posts about oil workers voting no. I expect some did, and some voted YES. From what I saw of postings in the MSM through the Ref, it seems to me more voted YES than NO.

    It’s very dangerous to classify groups of people as NO voters just because they belong to some group. As I tried to say in my posting, just about everyone belongs to some group, yet 45% of us voted YES regardless.

  195. galamcennalath says:

    And so, the trend continues…

    Survation, telephone

    Remain: 42% (-2)
    Leave: 45% (+7)

  196. Breeks says:

    How about we classify all NO voters as potential YES voters who just need a little help from us on their journey?

  197. galamcennalath says:


    Exactly. We need some to convert, the more the better. And yes, they are all potential converts.

    The value in indentifying groups who were statistically more like to be NO should never be to vilify anyone, whole group or some. It should be to highlight where most potential converts lie.

    I also think the SNP need to be realistic and suggest sweeteners to those groups which have weaker support. BT2 will definitely try to scare and threaten them. Yes2 needs to entice them.

  198. Macart says:

    Pigeonholing will be the bloody death of us.

    There is only one place to look for a no vote, Westminster and their media end of. They identified and manipulated key demographics through a mixture of fear and bribery and used their media to bombard those demographics relentlessly.

    Yet for all they started out with a thirty point+ lead, it was whittled down to 10 points by the end of the campaign. Had the gap been narrower at the start or the media less in the pockets of the state, the job would be done.

    Well, its not and people are paying for it in ‘almost’ every walk of life.

    We may even be looking at a second indyref campaign even sooner than the SG imagined possible. I reckon they were looking for a slow build of consensus over a five to ten year period personally, but events can always make an arse of plans and strategies.

    Anyroads, IMO you don’t make friends and win arguments by constantly rubbing people’s noses in past mistakes. You don’t alleviate fear by having people fear you and you certainly don’t form consensus by fragmenting those already on your side.

    To win the big prize I reckon we’re going to need to lose the rosettes, lose the personal agendas, lose the antipathy between those demographics.

    At the end of the day we either want the kind of government, the system of government that is willing to serve and govern for the good all in its care, or we can let Westminster’s establishment continue to dismantle what is left of society in these islands.

    Personally, I don’t give a flying… who you voted for in 2014, 2015 or 2016. If you think enough is enough, its time to get shot of Westminster’s governance, then just turn up wearing a YES badge.

  199. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes. Or to put it another way, there’s no such thing as a NO voter. We haven’t had Indy Ref 2 yet, and to my way of thinking the most ardent NO voter from indyref1 could jsut as easily become the most enthusiastic YES voter.

    It just needs them to change their mind.

  200. yesindyref2 says:

    Ah, you just said that 🙂

  201. Ken500 says:

    A Tory complaining about Gov resources being used in a Referendum.

  202. Macbeda says:

    Slightly O/T

    From Der Spiegel. web site

    Just loved this photo of a mural of the two wavy hair blondes Trumperton and Bojo get it together.

  203. yesindyref2 says:

    Yeah. I talked to a lot of NO voters, and they all had what seemed to them to be legitimate reasons to vote NO. And that was their personal choice, their democratic right, and they’d be daft as a brush if they didn’t vote the way they thought was best for them and their families. Calling them all the names under the sun as some have done – cowards, stupid, selfish, and that word tractors, that’s stupidity, not the way they chose to use their democratic vote. We’re not all the same (thank God, whatever God anyone has!).

    Yet all these months after IndyRef1, people are still using labels to classify whole groups of people. Which would mean that IR2, IR3, IR4, …. IRn would have exactly the same result every time. 44.7% YES, 55.3% NO, give or take the odd deceased or two.

    Well fuck that for a game of soldiers.

  204. Bob Mack says:

    Half my family are Monarchist, Protestant ,Rangers supporters ,but voted yes to a man and woman. There are no groups which are unreachable. Our job is to reach more of them,because the day is coming soon when that opinion on independence will be required once again..

    This time ,especially with a BREXIT vote which is looking more likely,I think we could get over the finishing line.

  205. heedtracker says:

    Toodleoo the noo, Torrance, Cardham, three horseman of vote NO attack propaganda currently waffling away SNP bad/Brexit on BBC Scotland politics tv show, sums up UKOK hackdom. Cardham most creepy with his vote Leave if you want lots of all NEW farming and fishing powers to be “given” back to Scotland hinting. Sleaze doesn’t come close to this dude’s level’s of UKOK tory creepiness.

  206. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “There is no excuse not to acknowledge the fact that it was an attack targeting people of the LGBT community.”

    Yes, there is – journalism. At this stage we haven’t a clue what the killer’s motivations were. Reports are, at the very least, confused. He himself identified it as an attack on behalf of ISIS, while numerous people have claimed that he’d been a regular at the club for several years and may have in fact been a closet homosexual torn between his sexuality and his religion.

    Anyone with even the tiniest scrap of journalistic integrity would have avoided leaping to categorical statements about what was then and remains now an unproven conclusion. That’s all the two other people on the papers review did. It’s absolutely absurd to portray an all-too-rare attempt to adhere to basic journalistic standards as homophobia, particularly as neither of the two have any record of such views.

  207. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Agreeing with Robert Louis on that first point; they basically pulled the LGBT equivalent of “All Lives Matter” and tried to dilute the issue.”

    All lives do matter. Eagles Of Death Metal fans didn’t start screaming and shouting that nobody who didn’t like Eagles Of Death Metal had any right to comment on the Bataclan massacre, nor did they insist that they’d been targeted specifically for being EODM fans, rather than people who happened to be in a nightclub when murdering scumbags came in and started shooting people.

    (Was the Bataclan, by default, a “straight club”? Gay people go to “straight” clubs and straight people go to gay ones.)

  208. Scott says:

    BBC Scotland`s Brian Taylor reviewing First Minister`s Questions with Magnus Gardham & David Torrance. That`ll be fair & impartial then

    This says it all about the BBC.
    FMQs a bit stale poor Rennie no change and where has the tank bull been all week.

  209. Macart says:

    Pretty much dads.

    We want to win folks over, the grass roots need give them something to vote for which alleviates their fears. We need to convince them that we’re not the ones to be afraid of. We need to hold out, not just a hand of friendship, but a helping hand.

    As for the SG? Well hopefully lessons learned from indyref 1. They need to nail down a more effective delivery for their message. Tackle the media more aggressively. Their presentation of certain key areas of policy could also do with some spit and polish. More importantly THEY need to hold out a hand to sympathic support in the other more traditionally unionist parties and be seen to do so IMO. They need to assure those parties that their participation in future Scottish governments is required and necessary for plurality.

    Representation for all and government for all.

  210. ScottishPsyche says:

    Regarding the dearth of positive or even mildly inspirational speeches, Tommy Shepherd has given a terrific speech in the HoC which is on his twitter

    I hope the link works:

  211. Dr Jim says:

    You CAN tell who’s a NO voter

    They’re the miserable Bastirts

  212. Sinky says:

    Bob Mack

    Good articles in Herald to-day from Prof Nicola McEwan on how Brexit could persuade middle class Scots to switch to Yes and from Iain MacWhirter. Both worth a read as we need to allay the concerns of those who are doing well.

    On PMQs have to say well done to Kezia Dugdale in defying the ludicrous purdah period on Scottish Parliament which can’t even discuss the issue which is very different from parties using government resources to make new policy announcements.

    Yet another reason we need the full powers of a normal parliament.

  213. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, I think perhaps the SG / SNP watched support rising and were afraid to rock the boat. But one mistake I think they made was to associate Independence far too much with policies, like Trident, that corporation tax cut, even how our defence would look. Yes they had to give an idea, but perhaps they should ahve given alternatives, and emphasised as you say, that other parties would have different ideas, and that a vote for YES was NOT a vote for the SNP – or its policies for iScotland.

    A lot of the progressive left stuff really worried the centre and right, or to put it another way, those who were managing to get along and were afraid to see the boat being rocked. I know a lot of people in that category: “I’m surviving, could be better, but certainly can’t afford to be worse off”.

  214. Capella says:

    @ Breeks – good idea, why don’t you co-ordinate the response to Brexit?

    I get the strong impression that the Brexiteers are desperate to engineer a “Leave” vote in Scotland. The idea that Scotland is politically to the left of England is anathema to Unionists. We need an exit vote this time for a start.

  215. Capella says:

    Sorry, meant to say exit poll!

  216. yesindyref2 says:

    @Dr Jim
    I don’t actually disagree with you in a way. Some of them are angry people, insulting and quite vicious. But perhaps that’s worry, concern, fear even. Which is a natural thing. I have noticed some becoming a bit more resigned to the idea though.

    The thing is to get past that, find out what they’re really worried about which isn’t always (isn’t often) what they say it is, like the economy, currency, whatever. It could be simple, like they don’t want to see the SNP in power for ever and a day and Alex Sammin as President for the next 50 years. Or mortgages, something the SG didn’t even bother trying to address with information. Information which could have negatives perhaps, but might well be far better than people’s fears.

    A lot of people I talked to said they’d be more favourable to Indy if the SNP just admitted there would be risks and uncertainties – and described them. Kind of the known unknown rather than the unknown unknown – or Project Fear.

    Mortgages is something I spend hours, days even, trying to resaearch. What would be the rules for someone with a mortgage from a London-based bank / building society, with it becoming a mortage for a property in a foreign country? Well, I couldn’t find out anything really definite. But the SG should be able to, and could even have talked it over with a willing building society or two. Not all were Unionist hell-bent.

    I said it in 2012, and will say it again and again. Truth will win Independence, the Truth, the Whole Truth, and Nothing But the Truth. The Truth shall set us free.

  217. Macart says:

    To be fair Dads, they didn’t have a lot of wiggle room there for two reasons. 1. The public wanted to know the shape of certain things, have assurances to hand and 2. The media and the opposition created the narrative of single party political association with the referendum. Then they ran and ran with it.

    The SG could probably steal a march on that next time round by bringing some names out of the secretly indy supportive closet. Better yet, those folks (and we know they exist) should stand up on their own feet and be counted, because people need them to. The wider the party spread of kissers available at the campaign launch, the better. Kill the one party association bollox before it gets started. These people will effectively represent politicians for YES as it were and future Scottish governments.

    Those faces should come from right across the board left to right and that’s what I mean about losing the rosettes and the personal agendas amongst the grass roots, because some of those they may see on such a podium would probably cause the odd swerry wurd in the ranks.

    We need to get by that and so do the politicians. This is about Scotland’s people and its governance. ALL its people and the society and politics they want to shape for the future. The left, right and centre.

  218. Capella says:

    Well that’s the kick off, England v Wales and Andy Murray at Queens. Looks like a quiet afternoon on the thread.

  219. frogesque says:

    Labour MP stabbed/shot (not sure if either or both) in Burton West Yorkshire.

    This is not good, hopefully she will be OK but it’s a really nasty attack on an elected MP.

  220. frogesque says:

    Above should read, Labour MP Jo Cox

  221. frogesque says:

    Auto correct grrrr. Birton West Yorks.

  222. frogesque says:

    Effed that good and proper! Birstall!

    Seem she is critical and a 52 yr old male has been arrested. On BBC website, can’t post link from tablet.

  223. Petra says:

    John Curtice is stating (yesterdays Sun) that the Scots could sway the result of Euro vote despite our smaller electorate ”Scots could become Kingmakers by deciding the result of the knife-edge EU Referendum.”….

    ”Strong backing for Remain in Scotland could take the pro-EU campaign over the winning line. But if more Scots than expected opt for Brexit it might be enough to send the UK out of Europe. Evidence shows the balance of opinion in Scotland is about two to one in favour of Remain. The number of votes will be small in relative size compared to England and Wales

    ”BUT unless England and Wales vote Leave by at least 52% the odds are that the UK as a whole will have voted to Remain – because of the big majority predicted in Scotland and N Ireland.”

    Well if that turns out to be the case …. ”Kingmakers” …. around 20 million English voters, whichever way it goes, wont be too happy with us Scots and may be wishing that we’d got our Independence after all. It would also kick their EVEL intentions into the long grass. Ha, ha.

  224. Breeks says:

    We need a sharper act. Ok, act isn’t a good word to use maybe, but presentation sounds stuffy.

    I just find it frustrating that there were hundreds of YES supporters speaking to people on door steps about keeping the pound, being back of the queue for EU membership, whether our pensions would collapse, Alex Salmond NOT telling porkies…All of it chaffe; good for the friendly social contact, but mere smalltalk when it came to spreading the word.

    Important though these conversations might have appeared, take currency; using the pound, euro or dollar was never the defining issue, it was just spun to look like it. Scotland’s right to choose its currency was THE issue of the day, not the choice it would make.

    Same for Europe. In 2014, why did we allow ourselves to be bushwacked into arguments over who would kick us out or keep us in Europe? Even if it hadn’t been baseless conjecture, it still wasn’t relevant.
    As an independent Scotland, we could;
    a) Choose to be in Europe.
    b) Choose to be out of Europe.
    Thats it. That’s the full spectrum of sovereign issues where they concern Europe. The other issues about mechanism; staying in, leaving, joining, qualification, etc might be important issues to address, but they are supporting issues and very much a lower teir of arguments of trifling importance when compared to a Nation’s sovereign right to make its own choices. Choosing, and the right to choose, should have been the heart of that conversation, not what Barusso or whatever the hell his name was thought about Scotland.

    In the Union, Scotland is told what it can do. As an Independent country, we make our own decisions.

    Next time around, let every spokesman for YES please have the presence of mind to steer every diversionary question or argument back onto the one issue to be decided in an independence referendum. The question on the ballot was not about keeping the pound, exiting NATO, subsidising renewables, or any other of the stalking horses introduced by the Unionists. Stick to the question that appears on the ballot.

    The ballot wasn’t about those issues, so why the hell did the entire debate focus on them? Yes, the unionist media manipulated the agenda, but the pro indy lobby must share some of the blame for letting them get away with it. Our spokespeopke simply didn’t have the focus to keep Independence front and centre throughout the debate, and the propagandists ran rampant.

  225. bugsbunny says:

    So Petra a small UK remain vote or a small UK leave vote is a win/win situation for Scottish hopes for a real Brexit,(an Exit from Britain)?

    It just shows you that guns and nutters do not mix. God help us if we had the right to buy and bear arms like the United States. You can’t buy a Kinder Egg because it is dangerous, but you can buy an Automatic Weapon. As the old saying goes, “Only in America”. They should move their capital from Washington D.C. to Los Angeles, or La La Land as it’s called, as that is where the real brainwashing comes from.

    An old joke: What do you call an idiot? Dumb.
    What do you call two idiots? Dumb, Dumb.
    What do you call 318,900 000 idiots?
    Dumb, de Dumb, Dumb, Dumb, Dumb, Dumb de Dumb, Dumb de Dumb. (Star Spangled Banner).


  226. Bob Mack says:

    Just heard the horrible news Re the Labour MP Jo Cox. Injured by what sounds like a Britain First lunatic My prayers are with her and her family today.

    Kind of puts thing into perspective.

  227. Robert Peffers says:

    @Bob Mack says: 15 June, 2016 at 3:48 pm:

    “Wrong thread. Nobody knows the facts as yet.”

    Well! Yes and no, Bob. We do know some of the facts but may never know all of the facts.

    First of all the claim, “it was a gay bar”, is a wee bitty nebulous. Was it a private bar exclusively for homosexual people or a Public Bar frequented by homosexual people?

    See! It’s like this – at one time I used to stop in for a bar lunch and a pint at a nice public bar frequented by mostly Irish Navvies who were employed in building a new jetty at the Naval Navy Establishment where I was working as an Industrial Civil Servant.

    Thing is I wasn’t an Irish Navvy. Come to that I was not a Royal Navy member either. The longer term main clientele of that bar was Royal Naval personnel. It was, though, in a very scenic area and had a fairly good drop-in tourist trade in the more clement Summer months and even a sprinkling of local rural residents.

    Far as we know the perpetrator of this particular incident has not stated his motives. Perhaps he just didn’t like the beer, the company or whatever.

    Who knows what goes on the mind of any particular mass murderer? Whatever it is it is not normal so how can normal people guess? That’s assuming there exists such a thing as a Normal Person? What, may I ask, is, “A Normal Person”, anyway?

  228. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, very true.

  229. geeo says:

    Things looking very serious for labour MP Jo Cox.

    Seems she was shot twice after being kicked to the ground trying to stop an argument between 2 men.

    Reports of a ‘home made’ gun being used !!

    What is it with some of the people in this world…disgraceful.

  230. Fred says:

    Michael Crick predicts that Boris will reward Farage and send him to the Lords as Lord Farnborough, surely Lord Sillars of Brigadoon deserves a lollipop?

  231. Joe of the Coutts says:

    Good on you Andy!
    Apart from that, I just watched Tommy Sheppard. Energetic speech – no notes – from the heart.
    That there were more politicians as good. Worth a look and listen.
    Weary of scripted, read off a monitor, pretend sincere rants. You know who you are.

  232. Robert Peffers says:

    @Proud Cybernat says: 15 June, 2016 at 4:02 pm:

    “If we Brexit can we still use the pound?”

    Ach! Weel! Proud Cybernat, just like every one else the World over, you and anyone else who pleases, can use the pound, or for that matter any one, or all, of the World’s International trading currencies.

    When you hear, see or read of a currency rate quoted against the other international trading currencies then you know it is not just a currency but is also a commodity that can be bought, used, sold or traded for other international trading currencies or even used, (bartered), for goods or services.

  233. Sunniva says:

    Jo Cox attacker seems to have been a white guy who shouted Britain first it’s rumoured. Referendum campaign now suspended. Utterly tragic.

  234. Breeks says:

    Fingers crossed Joe Cox will be ok. A bit concerned that updates on her condition seem to be taking a while to emerge.
    From early comments, it doesn’t seem she was targetted as an MP, but attacked while trying to intervene in a dispute between two men. She was also an aid worker in Syria, and only became an MP last year to promote NGO & aid issues. Seems like a gutsy lady, and just a wee lass too. I really hope she is ok.

  235. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 12:39 said:

    The value in identifying groups who were statistically more like to be NO should never be to vilify anyone, whole group or some. It should be to highlight where most potential converts lie.

    Never was a truer word said. You only win by converting at least some of your opponents. (Oh, and also not gratuitously alienating people who are basically already on-side.)

  236. Sunniva says:

    Jo Cox was prominent in the Remain campaign. Horrific.

  237. twathater says:

    Breeks I agree with you totally about name calling groups it only turns people away, unfortunately I disagree with your proposal that when people want to dig down to semantics to understand what the SG’s views are on issues, to concentrate fully on the independence narrative, you and I know or think we know what we would like to see happening after iScotland but these people need convinced and the only way to do that is unfortunately to explain the minutiae and show the current, past and future competence of the party in government

  238. Vambomarbeley says:

    I haven’t worked in over a year. Survive on a army pension. So don’t appear on the stats. One of the first jobs to go was the safety man. Job now done by the medic. Will things pick up. I have my doubts for the immediate future.

  239. Dr Jim says:


    I’m afraid I don’t share your faith in the truth setting us free when lies have worked a treat for thousands of years

    A couple of popular examples: God, Santa, There ARE weapons of mass destruction, I did not have sex with that woman, The X Factor isn’t rigged, Napoleon was a midget

    The world, unfortunately is populated by more gullible people than enlightened or we wouldn’t be in the shit we’re in

    Of course it should also be noted, lot’s of people are content to be lied to as it lifts the burden of responsibility from their shoulders and they can be content that when shit happens “It wasn’t my fault” is yelled aloud in order to justify their position of self imposed ignorance

    For thousands of years Priests of one kind or another ruled by inventing Gods lies and rules to back up their positions of power and the masses were content…Then..
    People started to abandon Gods so something had to be done to keep control, all hail the invention of politicians who now do the job the priests have been ousted from

    Education is the key to the destruction of the ruling classes, that’s why keeping the masses ignorant and confused is a priority for Governments around the world, but they can’t let us know that so they pretend to really try hard while at the same time firming up the Elitist world club for the future of their kind
    Just enough education to allow us to work for them and not ourselves

    All these bad Muslim types running around killing folk who want to get and education is a case in point, it’s just that those guys are obvious about it

    My own personal pet hate has always been the mythical superbeing one, doesn’t matter what name you call it, him, her, or how much you prove it’s made up nonsense the religionists keep revising their original invented rules to cope with it, Religious Education in schools for example, religious tolerance I can understand but you can’t teach something completely unprovable unless you’re prepared to admit that it is

    Our whole primary and secondary schooling we were subjected to this crap just like being told Santa was real till you get to around an age where you can accept he’s not

    “You’re going to lose your pension!*($!) Where do I put my name says the terrified pensioner whether he or she believes it or not, and let’s face it Lies and Tribal Religionists with a dollop of poor education on the part of the masses won the Scottish referendum

    I do have to say though we’re getting smarter and that’s a worry for the ruling classes, we’ve found out that the bad Devil they threatened us with

    Wizny Real, it wiz a big fat Bastirt lie

  240. Petra says:

    Breeks (et al) you may be interested in this:

    ‘The Case for Scotland Making a Unilateral Declaration of Independence in May 2015.’

    Patrick Scott Hogg Bellacaledonia October 12, 2014.

    ”I heard of a possible unilateral declaration of Scottish Independence from the late Robin Cook MP in 1983 at the Labour Party Conference in Perth City Hall. I asked Robin about Labour’s prospects at the election. We will win Scotland, we agreed but it looked like another Thatcher victory due to English dominance of seat numbers.

    He then said ‘How can we let the Scottish people suffer another Tory government hell-bent on union destruction and driving down living standards? I am seriously considering leading all Scottish Labour MP’s over the burning bridge to join with the SNP and declare UDI’.

    Robin Cook contemplated UDI but clearly forces within the Scottish party stopped him. Labour has tended to make the mistake of equating their own jobs-worth interests in Scotland as the national interest of the Scottish people and by 1983 Gordon Brown had forgotten his statement of principle in the Red Book for Scotland that if the Union of 1707 stopped serving the interests of the working people of Scotland it should end. Labour do not serve the interests of the people of Scotland otherwise they would acknowledge that there has never been equality between England and Scotland since the Union of 1707. As the McCrone reports of 1974 and 1975 show all the cream of profit from North Sea Oil has been taken from Scotland and spent on England, with projects such as upgrading the north and south circular road in London, the M25 and the Channel Tunnel also paid for from the ‘bonanza’ of NSO. Economically, Scotland has been robbed and impoverished by subsequent Westminster governments.

    Better Together kid themselves by asserting that the referendum vote on 18th Sept expressed the settled will of the Scottish people. Nothing could be further from reality. Project Fear turned to Project Hysteria in the last two weeks and unleashed the most vicious forces of what was a Westminster-led ideological war upon the Scottish people to kill confidence, kill hope, and undermine the idea that Scots were even capable of running their own affairs. Economic collapse and calamity would ensue if we DARED to vote Yes, huge retail price hikes would be instantaneous, pensions would cease the day after the vote. Essentially we were told DO NOT DARE to VOTE YES – WE OWN YOU AND YOU WILL OBEY YOUR MASTERS!

    It went right off the Richter Scale of political discourse. The 3 riders of the Apocalypse rode among our cities like ‘Murder’ in Shelley’s Mask of Anarchy. Those who think themselves the rulers of Scotland raged their venom via our tv screen and newspapers they own, telling us what they would do if we dared to think for ourselves. So, by any standards, the will of the Scottish people was among some groups, especially the elderly, that of fear, panic and some were petrified. Thugs who would deliberately do this to any community would be judged as criminals and brought to court and sentenced.

    The day of reckoning is coming for the Project Fear masters at the ballot box on 7th May 2015.

    Ruth Davidson MSP and her Labour cohorts are naive in the extreme to believe there was ‘intimidation’ on both sides of the Referendum debate given the state sponsored ideological war that raged upon the concerns of the people of Scotland in the last weeks of the Referendum. The egg thrown at Jim Murphy was idiotic. Some stupid unpleasant comments on the internet from either side pails to a drop in the ocean compared to the authoritarian anti-democratic abuse orchestrated from Downing Street, aided and abetted by the Scottish Labour crew. The will of the Scottish people could not have been more unsettled, muddied, insulted, scared and in some cases petrified. I saw the fear in pensioner’s eyes while campaigning. In old Scots parlance, it was Keep yer fit on their neck. Endless intimidation was the essential buckshot in Project Fear’s armoury.

    I, like others, have suggested, since the referendum result, that the Yes Campaign should be maintained and work together at the next election in tandem with the SNP where only one Pro-Independence campaign is fielded in each constituency. This would allow candidates to come from the wide spectrum of the Yes Campaign, if talents such as Iain McWhirter, Jeane Freeman, Lesley Riddoch, Blair Jenkins, David Hayman, Carol Fox, Cat Boyd, Colin Fox , Liam O’Hare, Jonathon Shafi and hopefully others if they are prepared to stand as pro-Independence candidates unopposed by SNP candidates. This makes sense on many levels. Yes literature, car stickers, badges, flags, T-shirts and so on are already made. No need for a new marketing brand for a new organisation. We all know what Yes Scotland stand for. This co-operation needs agreement at senior level but as an SNP councillor In would be more than happy for this community wide approach. Together we awoke a new civic voice in Scottish democracy and its structure is still extant and needs to continue.

    If there is a majority of Pro-Independence MP’s elected on 7th May 2015 there are various scenarios that might play out. One is that the majority of SNP and Yes Scotland MP’s will compel Westminster to deliver on Devo-max. But Devo-max will not provide the oil and gas revenues to Scotland needed to kick start Scotland out of austerity. England and rUK need that tax take to pay their stupendous debts. We will still have weapons of species obliteration in the Holy loch. £100 billion wasted on the Empire mindset phallic symbol of world status that gives the egos of Westminster ‘global influence’ to bomb kill and create more Terrorism in the name of peace and stability. We will not have enough funds to eradicate food banks and grotesque socially engineered austerity and poverty wages and socially engineered unemployment which is designed to keep wages as low as possible. Thatcherism started the process of social engineering and it has been continued by every government since, Blue or Red. Tories all. The Prime Minister and Gordon Brown differ on the Vow and are now promising different powers to our parliament. Brown is in a panic that Scotland might get control of raising and spending income tax because that might cause problems for British Labour in London – he is fixated on helping Labour, not the people of Scotland. The vow is in tatters already. Christine Graham MSP was right when she said the relationship between Scotland and London is now over, even if the vote was a majority for the No camp. If Westminster politicians cant even agree on what level of ‘Devo-Max’ they promised, what will they deliver?

    Labour has already lost Scotland. Whatever the result next May. They could not face the people of Scotland in public meetings. They hid from the people. They were scared to debate with Yes Scotland speakers. They were scared of the people of Scotland. One or two did on a small scale. They hunted in packs. They had meetings where people were invited via email. Selected members of the small crowds. Vetted. Secret venues. This was the behaviour of the people’s representatives! What happened to the once proud, open and democratic voices in the Old Labour party I once was a member of? They are dead. Labour have lived in a power ‘bubble’ of their own self-importance for so long now, they don’t even know they are in a bubble. Bubbles burst.

    I believe the grass-roots Yes Scotland campaign should, if we (SNP and Yes Scotland candidates) win a majority of seats in May, make a unilateral declaration of Independence and demonstrate peacefully with unswervingly disciplined law-abiding behaviour, from the day after the election result, in every city of Scotland and demand action from our new MP’s and the Scottish Government. Such a demonstration would not be to usurp the authority of our elected Members or Scottish government, but to show that Scotland is ready for major change, whether that be for full ‘Devo-Max’ or demands for another Referendum or negotiations for Independence should be left to the political leadership of Scotland. Nor would it be wise to call for an occupation of all cities to go on until demands are met, which would be a recipe for confrontation. It is the job of elected representatives and leaders to lead and to speak our collective voice: demonstrations are a way of making that voice heard loud and clear.

    A close examination of electoral statistics for Westminster governments from 1945 show that no government elected in that period had the authority of 50% or more of the total votes cast at any election. All took power with under 50% of votes cast. Two governments were elected with around 35% of votes cast.

    Indeed, when we consider the 40% rule imposed upon the vote at the 1979 Scottish referendum for a Scottish Assembly, and look at the governments elected to Westminster it will come as no surprise to readers that no government since 1945 obtained 40% of the total electorate in their favour. The iron cast stipulation of the 40% rule made for the vote in 1979 was therefore a deliberate stitch-up to postpone the creation of a Scottish Assembly. Labour are not to be trusted and neither are the Tories whatever Vow they make.

    So, if today’s Yougov speculation comes true and there are 26 or more SNP/Pro-Independence candidates elected on 7th May, I would suggest that a unilateral declaration of Independence should be considered by grass-roots Yes Scotland campaigners as a means of keeping the feet to the fire of the Westminster elites, be they Blue or Red Tories. If we elect a majority of MP’s for Pro-Independence candidates and have one or two more MP’s that Labour, then a claim of right for UDI may be subject to question. However, if Yes Scotland/SNP win by 5 or 6 more MP’s than Labour in Scotland then the case for UDI is clear because that would put Yes Scotland/SNP around 10% ahead in seats. First past the post governments in the UK have always taken power, even with around 35% of the vote, so Scottish UDI should be seriously considered if we win a large victory in May.

    I would attest that around 20% of the NO votes in the Referendum were cast due to fear and panic and therefore the vote may remain legal and binding, BUT it was a pyrrhic victory with intimidation at its core and does not represent the settled will of the Scots people. It may be far sooner rather than later that our new First Minister can echo the words of Nye Bevan and say ‘We were the dreamers, we were the sufferers, now we are the builders’. Scotland must be Independent for the sake of all our people.”

  241. yesindyref2 says:

    @Dr Jim
    Bit by bit Dr Jim, bit by bit. And the Truth is at the heart of that. If we don’t lie, the only thing we can be guilty of is a bad memory, or changing opinions, we can never get caught out in a lie because of changing our stories having forgotten the details of the lie we told last time.

    What I did a lot during the Indy Ref campaign is try to point out how the media lied or misrepresented. It wasn’t always about Indy, it was often better to pick up something non-controversial where the media put its own spin on something, but people could see for themselves.

    At the start I found a lot of people didn’t believe newspapers but did believe the BBC. Bit by bit that changed and ironically it was the media reportage of Cameron I found the easiest to point out, because the media depending on its bias, either represented him as the best thing since sliced bread, or the devil incarnate. So if people took the trouble to compare articles or news broadcasts or political programs, they could see the total contradictions for themselves. And start to not believe what they were spoon-fed by the media.

  242. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Capella @ 13:48 said:

    I get the strong impression that the Brexiteers are desperate to engineer a “Leave” vote in Scotland. The idea that Scotland is politically to the left of England is anathema to Unionists.

    I don’t know about “politically to the left” exactly, but “politically different” certainly, and on that you’re quite right. Which is why we’re getting all this guff now about “Scotland getting all these wonderful new powers” from the very same people who did their d*mndest to prevent us getting anything worthwhile at all.

    I am sorely tempted to reply to the next Brexit poster here by telling him/her I have a nice car for sale with amazingly low mileage and only one old lady owner plus a run-down property for sale in central London with a rather nice clock tower, both going cheap for a quick sale, and I’m sure s/he would be just the right buyer…

    Shame about Jo Cox. I wish her safe and well. If early reports are to be believed, it seems that Pandora’s box is being opened early…

  243. Capella says:

    re Joe Cox – somebody called Mocha appears to have a picture of the attacker. From RT site:

  244. bugsbunny says:

    Just heard that LBC Radio presenter Shelagh Fogarty has accused SNP members of acting in the same way during the Independence Referendum as the man who shot Jo Cox. Disgraceful.


  245. Petra says:

    @ Sunniva says at 4:00 pm …. ”Jo Cox attacker seems to have been a white guy who shouted Britain first it’s rumoured. Referendum campaign now suspended. Utterly tragic.”

    Jo Cox, mother of two, shot and stabbed ‘seemingly’ by someone who wants to ‘Leave.’

    Absolutely horrendous and it just makes one wonder how things will pan out on the 24th June. The corrupt media, in particular the BBC, and certain politicians have a LOT to answer for, imo.

    Saying a little prayer for Jo Cox. Praying for her swift and full recovery.

  246. yesindyref2 says:

    Changed days since that article, with the Holyrood Election having caused a (temporary I hope) bust up of pro-Indy people.

    But as for UDI, I and many others I’ve seen posting wouldn’t support that. We had a Referendum, and the correct democratic way forward is anothe Referendum. Only a majority of the (voting) people of Scotland can decide our future. One of the reasons for Independence is, after all, to have Scotland in charge of all our decisions – i.e. Democracy.

    Having said that if Westminster refused Indy Ref 2, there is a case for UDI, for the sole purpose of having a “confirmatory” Referendum. That, I think, should and would get International support, and even perhaps peacemakers if neccessary.

  247. bugsbunny says:

    Jo Cox has just died from her wounds. OMG.


  248. Flying Scotsman says:

    My thoughts and prayers are with the family of Jo Cox mp, tragically killed today in Yorkshire.

  249. Petra says:

    @ bugsbunny says at 5:03 pm …. ”Just heard that LBC Radio presenter Shelagh Fogarty has accused SNP members of acting in the same way during the Independence Referendum as the man who shot Jo Cox. Disgraceful.”

    Yeah let’s compare this with a (SNP … if it was) broken egg and ignore the dastardly behaviour of Unionists in Scotland in 2014. Additionally last I heard Jim Murphy was still walking about causing trouble as usual and from all accounts wasn’t whipped off to hospital pre-Referendum unless it was to, unbeknownst to us, a psychiatric hospital.

    I can’t wait to get our Independence and control over broadcasting. These media morons are absolutely disgusting and STILL intent on whipping up trouble and creating divisions. Is she aware of what she’s doing? Using one hellish issue that ‘they’ have no doubt contributed to, to create another.

  250. Petra says:

    Jo Cox … just terrible. Thinking of her poor family, in particular her children.

  251. Bob Mack says:

    What a tragic thing to happen to this young woman.R.I.P

    Public service in the current atmosphere just became even more dangerous.

  252. Capella says:

    Terrible news about Jo Cox. Speculation will be rife about the motives of the attacker. So sad for her friends and family.

  253. Grouse Beater says:

    If you keep telling people you’re an ‘exceptional’ race, superior in all respects, the best in the world, all other nations inferior, some will eventually come to believe it.

    One day a psychopath goes out to prove it – and commits the ultimate censorship.

  254. bugsbunny says:


    Apparently she died at 1.48pm. The news about her death was released just after 5pm. She and her husband and two children were part of the flotilla who were part of the in campaign on the Thames. The guy apparently shouted Britain First. But of course he’ll be seen as disturbed and not the Terrorist he is. If that was a Pro Independence supporter last September 11th, a week before the vote, the media would have had a field day. And it would be a no brainer if the guy was dark skinned and shouted Allah Akbar. So I wonder how this will be reported. Utter scum of the Earth. I hope he dies in agony. Murdering bastard.


  255. Truth says:

    I’m saddened to hear confirmation that Jo Cox has died. I feared the worst when I heard the initial reports.

    Nobody deserves what’s happened least of all her kids who have lost their mother. I can only think of my little ones if they lost their mummy.

    If you don’t agree with someone, violence is never the answer.

    I didn’t know you Jo, nor would I have voted for your party, but this news has left me with a heavy heart. This is an attack on us all and I feel sorry for you and your loved ones.

  256. Andrew McLean says:

    Sad to hear about Jo Cox, totally agree with Grouse, albeit I wouldn’t tar all yoons with that brush, but they do seem to sip from a poisoned well, as a cretin called Shelagh Fogarty proved again today.

  257. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Likewise, very shocked to hear the bad news about Jo Cox. My heartfelt sympathies to her nearest and dearest. She didn’t deserve this. You can’t help but wonder why it always seems to be the best people who are targeted like this.

    It’s far too soon yet to call, but one can’t help but wonder what dark passions have been stoked by the hateful Brexit campaign. But to compare this with the indyref is beyond contemptible.

  258. Marie Clark says:

    Utterly shocked at the death of MP Jo Cox. This poor young woman leaves behind a husband and two children so sad.

    You hear of this kind of thing in America, but not over here. No need for violence like this, it never solves anything, usually only creates more problems.

    I’ve heard the rumours of the man shouting Britain first. I hope to goodness that this tory bun fight is not the reason this young woman has lost her life. Makes you wonder what the hell will happen on the 24th June once the result is known.

  259. Chic McGregor says:

    @G H Graham
    On productivity, the following graphs say it all

  260. Artyhetty says:

    Incredibly sad about Jo Cox. Nothing more to say, it’s a fckd up world ruled by fckd up humans.

  261. Roboscot says:

    It’s not clear why Jo Cox was killed but if it’s connected to the EU referendum then it shows why a Scottish Remain vote keeping the UK in, along with an English Leave vote, might have consequences we don’t want.

  262. bugsbunny says:

    Now Shelagh Fogarty on Twitter right now and she is trying to get out of the shit by blaming SNP supporters for twisting her words. She is getting rightly ripped to shreds.


  263. Juteman says:

    Today, ‘journalists’ that write shite on behalf of the British State should hang their heads in shame.

  264. Clapper57 says:

    That Shelagh Fogarty should resort to making such a crass and politically inaccurate and inappropriate statement so soon after such a horrific incident is to her shame.

    The real issue is the senseless waste of a life… for what ?

    On a human level my sincere sympathies go out to her family and friends in what must be an unbearable time for them.

    As a human being one’s reaction should be sympathy for those affected and horror at this barbaric act and like other decent people I instinctively choose to respond accordingly as this atrocious senseless murder truly transcends party politics.

    RIP Jo Cox

  265. bugsbunny says:


    She was a prominent remain campaigner. On her twitter page posted only a few hours ago, her husband and two children are on a boat with an IN flag, as part of the IN flotilla on the Thames.


  266. Macart says:

    Terrible news about Jo Cox.

    Senseless and awful.

    Sympathies to her family.

  267. Legerwood says:

    Truly awful news. So very sorry for her and her family.

  268. yesindyref2 says:

    Incredibly sad about Jo Cox, is politics in a so-called civilised country worth this?

    As for Shelagh Fogarty, let he be peeps, she did apparently say “but this is on a different scale”. She’s comparing two referendums to say there’s no comparison.

  269. Valerie says:

    Shocking news about Jo Cox. Her husband issued a very dignified statement. Seems poignant and ironic, that as an aid worker with Oxfam, she went into some hellish warzones.

    There are so many mentally ill people with violent intent among us.

    I saw the reference to LBC presenter, Shelagh Fogarty on Twitter, so went looking for myself. It’s absolutely disgusting and inappropriate.


    Just to say your piece from Bella on UDI, is written by a Cumbernauld SNP councillor, Paddy Hogg. Passionate about the environment, Burns and all Scotland.

    Paddy is also a published writer. Burns The Patriot Bard is a biography available on Amazon.

    Lovely guy.

  270. Gfaetheblock says:

    Shelagh Fogarty has put her quote on twitter, clumbsy but clear that ‘ this is on a different scale’. A lot of SNP supporters are being quite hateful, shock can hardly help their cause on today of all days.

  271. Breeks says:

    Very sad about Jo Cox. I kinda feared the worst when there were no updates coming from the hospital. When the story was breaking, it read like she nipped out for a sandwich from her weekly surgery and happened across a pair fighting in the street. She intervened and one of them turned on her. That was how the story broke at first, but maybe it just wasn’t correct.

    Regards earlier comments; I didn’t mean to suggest talking about pound and defence issues etc should be absolutely verbotten, but just kept firmly in context with specific reference to their relevance to the Indy question on the ballot.

    And UDI’s? Yeah, not keen myself, but I might be persuaded depending on the amount of damage that is inbound for Scotland. I also confess that Craig Murray’s blog was an interesting perspective. A de facto UDI subsequently ratified by referendum in the shadow of a Brexit vote which revitalises a mandate for Independence, but made all the more urgent when tied to the burning wreck of a self destructing UK. A kind of man the lifeboats UDI…

    I am also concerned about the damage Brexit might suffer on Europe. It could potentially destabilise or even fracture the whole concept, and then we really are in a pickle. I reckon an emerging Scottish Nation stepping forward to embrace a rather angry Europe would help steady nerves. Not quite the same impact as the whole UK staying of course, but I think our friends in Europe would reciprocate, and a UDI Scotland would be recognised very quickly and without much trouble. Sadly England and rUK might be a different story, but I rather suspect they might have more pressing issues to worry about.

    Our Indyref in 2014 now looks like such a steady affair, and our next opportunity might well be more turbulent and unpredictable.

  272. Kevin Evans says:

    Am shocked by this news about Jo.

    Thoughts are with her family.

  273. Sunniva says:

    We don’t know what the motive of the killer was in the Jo Cox murder. It’s alleged that her white middle aged murderer shouted Britain first, but that’s just an allegation which might be unfounded. Important not to rush to conclusions. But her husband Brendan is saying now on BBC that he hopes people will ‘unite and fight against the hatred that killed her’ which suggests that he knows it was related to either the Remain/Leave campaign or else her humantarian work on behalf of refugees from Syria.

  274. Patrick Roden says:

    To be honest, I’ve been wondering how long it would be before the useless corrupt media in the UK, would wind people up so much that a nutcase would set out to harm or kill a politician who they blamed for ‘not understanding how superior Britain was’

    I thought the victim would be an SNP MP/MSP, but it doesn’t make it any easier that this time it was Labour.

    Not surprised Fogarty was trying to deflect blame elsewhere.

  275. yesindyref2 says:


    Indeed. From the Herald: “The husband of murdered MP Jo Cox has urged people to “fight against the hatred that killed her.” “

  276. yesindyref2 says:

    @Patrick Roden
    There’s been a lot of hate talk during this EU Ref, and by high profile people as well. It should have been stopped.

  277. Titler says:

    Roboscot says:
    16 June, 2016 at 6:06 pm

    It’s not clear why Jo Cox was killed but if it’s connected to the EU referendum then it shows why a Scottish Remain vote keeping the UK in, along with an English Leave vote, might have consequences we don’t want

    My sense of the emerging narrative is that it’s a disturbed loner driven by far right politics; who possibly targeted Jo Cox because of her prior work in international development and charity. You have to be wary at this early stage, especially as the dead are always pure angels and we’re hearing only the good things, so the link between the good and the crime may not be so solid.

    However, it wouldn’t surprise me if Cox was not on some Britain First hate list because of working for Oxfam etc… if you’ve ever done street fundraising you witness the intense hate it summons up from the neanderthals. They seem to think that not a single penny spent abroad can help the UK in any way, or just they outright resent black people getting it. I was fund raising for Christian Aid one time outside a Soapy Joe’s in Bristol, a place where I often go shopping, but because that day I was wearing the charity jacket, some drunk came roaring out, got in my face and screamed “You’re a bunch of (“ligger” – Ed) lovers!”

    And now the Referendum debate has become so toxic I wouldn’t be surprised if those so sunk into the politics of hate are being driven over the edge; after all, future of nation at stake, doom of the British race etc. This isn’t like the Scottish Referendum, it’s much more like Weimar Germany; the aristocrats then thought they could wind up but control people like that “Little Austrian Colonel” too. I don’t think UKIP is anywhere near NSDAP historically yet, but a lot of good people are going to be killed in the service of enraging idiocy again it seems.

    My condolences to all whose lives were touched by Jo Cox in good ways.

  278. Petra says:

    Wikipedia: ”On 16 June 2016, Jo Cox was fatally shot and stabbed outside a library in Birstall, West Yorkshire, while at a constituent event.

    According to eye witnesses, she was shot three times – once near the head – and stabbed multiple times by a male assailant who shouted “Britain First” as he carried out the attack. It was possibly a reference to the far-right Britain First, but the party issued a statement denying any involvement or encouragement in the attack and suggested that the phrase “could have been a slogan rather than a reference to our party”. The attack left a 77 year old man with slight injuries.

    A 52-year-old man, named locally as Thomas “Tommy” Mair, was arrested. Campaigning in the EU referendum was suspended on both sides as a mark of respect.

    Four hours after the incident, West Yorkshire Police announced that Jo Cox had died at Leeds General Infirmary.”

    RIP Jo x

  279. Breeks says:

    I have a very, very, ugly thought in my head. I don’t even want to dwell on it, and I’m really in two minds even to speak it, but for a pro-remain activist MP to be attacked outside her surgery at lunch time as a consequence of a scuffle in the street where one man had a home made gun in his pocket? A week for a vitally important referendum with the Remain campaign on the ropes?
    You know, if you were an evil person and knew her movements, you could just about predict where and when Ms Cox was going to be… and suddenly there’s potential for something a lot more sinister going on here, but luckily I’m not a conspiracy theorist. I’m just an insensitive clot who should really have more respect for her family in such tragic circumstances. Aren’t I?

  280. bugsbunny says:

    You think it’s a conspiracy breeks? Remember JFK and within 2 hours Oswald’s mugshot and details were all over the papers?

    Well here it is.


    You may have a point.

  281. Sunniva says:

    Yes, you’re very wrong Breeks. This is a lone nutter who has been spurred on by stuff he reads on the internet. Britain’s Breivik. Tragic beyond belief.

  282. bugsbunny says:

    If this is true what they say about him, either they must find out if he has been associating with extremists, if not then this “Quiet man” has been turned by propaganda.


  283. Truth says:

    I’ve just read the Wikipedia entry for Jo Cox. Her kids are 5 and 3.

    How on earth does her husband break this news to them?

    My son is almost 5 and I have tears in my eye’s just thinking of if I was in this position. My son adores his “mummy”.

    As for breeks, I too had those dark thoughts about all this.

  284. Gfaetheblock says:

    Breaks, that is disgusting, shame on you.

    Two young children have lost their mum today and you bring your tinfoil hat nonsense to the threat.

    Away and sober up.

  285. Petra says:

    @ Breeks says at 7:29 pm ….

    Nothing would surprise me Breeks just as nothing will surprise me when this Referendum is over and we start fighting for our Independence once again … they’ll have to up the ante next time round and I’ve got some ugly thoughts in my head in relation to that.

  286. ronnie anderson says:

    Maybe the purveyors of Propoganda will reflect on they’re purpose in life & quote the truth.

    My simpathy goes out to the Husband of Jo Cox & the Children.

  287. louis.b.argyll says:

    A shocking state of affairs..people are impressionable, psychopaths included.

    The media demonise EVERYTHING.. except violence itself.

    They love a war, as do our governments and royals.


    The media then sell us war.. as heroic, tragic..

  288. Breeks says:

    I’m neither angry nor shocked you take that tone with me Gfaetheblock, because it’s a thoroughly unpleasant business, but I do want to point a few things out.

    When this story started to break, it was following the line that Jo Cox was holding a surgery in her constituency as she always did on a Thursday, and as she commonly did, nipped over the road for a lunchtime sandwich. It followed that she had intervened with an ongoing altercation between two men, presumably as a public spirited individual seeking to keep the peace, but somehow, a scuffle unfolded and one of the men ended up stabbing and shooting her, apparently unaware of who she was or having any connection to her beyond meeting by chance in such circumstances. That was the story until well after 4pm.

    That kind of event does happen, and though horrific, probably wouldn’t be all that remarkable, but then further events come to light which casts doubt on the apparently random nature of the attack. A random act of chance evolves into a curious coincidence, and two or three coincidences add up to look rather less random, and eventually downright suspicious.

    It occurred to me that the chance of a sitting MP barely a few steps from her public office or surgery in the library, randomly stumbling into an altercation with an armed man in those few minutes she stepped out for lunch, who apparently cried out “Britain First” to a random stranger he was in the process of stabbing and shooting, who by sheer coincidence was an active participant in the Brexit referendum. By this stage, I was already having gravest misgivings about this being a random act of mindless insanity because the circumstances simply don’t seem consistent or credible as an act of random violence.

    I have just watched the news where the suspect has been identified, and exposed as having links with a radical right wing pro-British neoNazi type group called Britain First, who have been criticised for making threats of violence towards MP’s advocating that Britain stays in Europe. A witness has come forward to state that the attack did not look random as earliest reports had suggested, but that the attacker had been waiting for Ms Cox, did indeed know who she was and where she would be, and lay in wait, armed in premeditated readiness to carry out his attack.

    With respect Gfaetheblock, that is an infinitely more plausible explanation of events I am readily satisfied to accept than the earlier reports which were riddled with inconsistencies, outright inaccuracies, and wholly implausible coincidences which frankly deserved to be met with utmost suspicion.

    It is indeed a highly indelicate matter to speculate of whether a shocking attack on a young mother is indeed the random coincidence as this was portrayed, or to draw attention to the inconsistencies which disclose an act of premeditated and deliberate savagery nothing short of a politically motivated murder. However, unless you are prepared to accept any old crap you are told without question, it’s an unpleasant process you have to complete.

    To suffer yet more distress on this poor family is the very last thing I would ever want to do, but looking after this family means getting to truth about what happened to their mother and seeing that the culprits, one or many, are all properly brought to justice.

  289. Andy B says:

    This clearly was a homophobic attack though. It needs to be called for what it was. The murdering scumbag behind it has personal beliefs and a corrupted culture that despises gay people and glorifies such violent murder and martyrdom.

    It is a homophobic violent and evil attack. I expect we will see more of this as the modern waves of cultural enrichment continues. I fear we’ll see human rights and freedom of expression squashed and the gay communities attacked and suppressed like the dark old past. I feel like I am watching the build up or story setting to a war film being developed as I watch modern events. I’m glad I am too old for this to matter for much longer for me as it’d probably break my heart seeing what will unfold.

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