And telling you it’s raining
If this site seems to spend most of its time being angry at the SNP these days, that’s because we are. And a large part of that is because there’s very little that hacks us off more than people insulting our intelligence.
Smith’s tweet is just a crassly offensive flat-out lie. This week’s vote is NOT about “EU membership”. The United Kingdom hasn’t been a member of the EU since 31 January. We’ve already left and there’s no going back. The vote is about whether we leave with a sliver of a trade deal slightly reducing the self-inflicted harm, or the total catastrophe of no deal at all, and it’s just crushingly embarrassing for all concerned that Smith thinks so little of his own supporters as to believe he can “frame” it otherwise.
Voting against the deal is a bad strategy, not because it’ll have the slightest impact on whether the deal passes or not but because it gives Unionists such a giant open goal to point out the grotesque and obvious cynicism.
When you’re giving out free hits to lobotomy patients like George Foulkes, Braden Davy and James Cleverly, the world’s most ironically-named man, you’re selling the jerseys. Because even though they’re total idiots, on this occasion they’re absolutely right, as the BBC’s Philip Sim pointed out in a well-argued thread this morning.
The only options on the table are the deal or no deal, and if you vote against the first one then you’re inescapably voting for the second one, and all but the very dimmest, blindest SNP loyalists can see that.
Speaking of whom:
That argument is a bit like standing on the deck of the Titanic as they’re lowering the last of the lifeboats and saying “Och just wheesht about that big iceberg hole, we’ll fix it when we get to New York. Look how luxurious our cabins are!”
Because by the middle of next May the SNP’s options will have narrowed to pretty much none. If they get their big majority, beg Boris Johnson for a Section 30 again and get told to shove it again (as they will), then the worst possible place we can be is five years away from another election, because an election is the only thing the SNP has any practical control over.
A Section 30 is in the gift of Westminster. An “illegal” referendum (copyright Nicola Sturgeon) is in practice in the control of local councils, none of which the SNP has a majority in. The legal status of a referendum is in the hands of the courts (and may already have been decided long before the election – Martin Keatings’ case is due in court in just three weeks’ time).
The only thing the SNP can do that isn’t dependent on someone else’s co-operation is to conduct a general election on a one-line manifesto of a plebiscite. And if you’ve just HAD the election and you DIDN’T do that, you’re really struggling to find any other meaningful action that’s available to you until the next election comes along .
Theoretically you could dissolve the parliament and call another election, but (a) that’s a really terrible idea because the electorate would be extremely unhappy about it, and more importantly (b) the UK government could simply step in and prevent it, because it retains sovereignty. The Northern Ireland Assembly was suspended for three years from 2017 to 2020 and the UK parliament took over devolved affairs. Nothing could prevent them doing the same to Holyrood if they wanted to.
But a party that’s still trying to tell people there’s a vote coming up on whether Britain leaves the EU or not is not a party fit to face up to any sort of reality. And if the rest of us “sit back, chill” and turn a blind eye to that, we’ll deserve what we get.
If it’s any comfort I also spend a lot of my time being angry at the SNP. The rest of the time I’m just disappointed and frankly astonished (copyright Johann Lamont) at their utter inability to understand the mood of the Yes movement.
I see you’ve gone the unionist route.
If the SNP vote FOR this, you and your new mates will say – “ha – the SNP love the Tory shitshow”.
If the SNP abstain, you and your mates will say:
“Ha – the SNP don’t know how to do politics”
If the SNP vote against, you are saying they support No-Deal when in fact they support a return to the EU with the perfect deal – thats what voting against says – Scotland’s choice.
I pity you these days, you are spinning on the shilling – I wonder how much they gave you.
Just read your article (well said btw) and I see Wishy in my feed saying,
“ Absolutely. Hello, the Labour Party. You will jointly own this disaster. Congratulations…..”
on a zillion T-shirts:
The 2021
Scottish Parliament Election
is
Indyref2
Fuck off, Bob.
I don’t know why anyone would pay any attention to Smyth anyhoo
The Scottish government as a whole are making fools out of the Scottish people.
It is surely time for we, the people in Scotland to make our choice, to have a nation of people Parliament.
Better than abstaining on the vote, the SNP MPs should be walking out of the Commons and staying out. But then the SNP only do ‘respectable’ politics.
They should also have an SNP loyalist turd polishing championships. Plenty of top notch competitors for that one.
If every time an SNP MP is ‘grandstanding’ in Westminster when expressing a different point of view from English counterparts, then that’s all Scottish MPs have been doing since 1707, bar the few times they tried to annul the Union.
SNP MPs are supposed to be a different breed from Labour and Tory Scots, and the old Liberals, but they don’t know any better.
Then again, the Irish had the good sense to let English govern England and not attend Westminster as a matter of principle. They knew they would always be outnumbered. Scots MPs enjoy masochism.
I dispair, Smyth has lost the agenda, along with most of SNP hierarchy.
When will they see reality, or is their pay cheques too good at blinkering them.
Me thinks they play a game of Independence tomorrow if you follow us.
Time a new party and champion rose up in the early days of the age of Aquarius.
The game’s well and truly up when you let George Foulkes come across as a voice of reason. FFS.
If you are so smart,Stu ,why doncha you try being Moses?
Try doing a George Galloway for the other team?
@Famous 15,
Moses got lost in the desert for 40 years. I think Stu could beat that.
That tweet from Alyn Smith should be up in mahoosive billboards the length and breadth of Scotland with a big bloody TROLL stamped all over it – talk about taking the Scottish public for morons!!!!!
These feckers are really rubbing salt into open cut wounds…not only have they sat on their fat, lazy, toughing arses for 5 years they now think we’re that dim-witted we can’t tell that the game is fucking up, because our government couldn’t run a fucking bath let alone a referendum!!!!!
And who has folded their cards since 2016? Yes, you fucking SNP waste of space troughers – either call the May election as a plebiscite independence election or just fucking fuck right off the useless C**NTs that you are.
ps; for the feingt-hearted I’m not apologising for my language…talk about these fucking SNP treating their electorate like the height of shite…. they are despicable.
6 days away from being ripped out of the EU and that kind of tweet is what they come up with.
Please wingers – get a campaign together to push for a plebiscite and to oust out all the horrid SNP troughers.
I’m old enough to remember 1979. If the SNP vote for this deal then in 5, 10, 20, 30, 40 years time the opposition will be yelling, ‘But you voted for the deal!’
Exactly how the Tories planned it, and you have fallen for it hook line and sinker. The SNP is supporting the Scottish people who voted, not for no deal, a bad deal or any other deal, but to remain in the EU. Unlike you and the Labour Party, they have not been conned by Tory tricks that are now so transparent. It would be a betrayal of the people of Scotland to support leaving the EU under any deal.
Your hatred for the SNP is now clouding your judgement..
It’s always good to know there is a beacon of light towards which we can turn our eager faces for objective truth. “Framing matters…” should not be dismissed simply as a clumsy attempt to distort objective facts but a lesson in politics from a consummate master, the SNP’s fountainhead no less, at whose feet we sit thirsting for wisdom, if others will not, I, at least, salute you Ayn Smith…
Sadly Stu has called it pretty much right since the outset.
We have spent too much time and squandered too many chances trying to protect the english from their worst enemy……themselves.
We should have supported Mays deal in exchange for sect 30 powers.
We didn’t have to use them…..we could have waited on this shitshow then pulled the trigger.
We would have had our referendum and england would still have May in charge.
Thats a better result for both than what we have now.
I think most people will see a vote by the SNP against this policy as a vote against the whole sorry mess of Brexit and not as a vote for no deal.
It is a pretty impossible situation for SNP MPs but I agree with those who say a walk out and return to Scotland would be the best policy. Being in Westminster is a waste of time.
“Framing Matters”..Yes ,I would think Alex Salmond would agree with that.
I simply don’t understand why they’re not abstaining?
Must admit I thought they would abstain. Crazy stuff
Aa far as
The tweet by NS saying it doesn’t matter how we vote just makes me want to scream.
As far as I am concerned; voting against the deal is the SNP growing a pair of baws at last. Under no circumstances can they vote with the anti Scottish fuckin Tories.
….in other words, Andrew Morton, you want to be still fighting gallantly for Scottish Independence in 40 years time.
I wish I was young enough to share your ambition — though, if I were young enough, I don’t think I’d be old enough to remember 1979………
on a zillion car stickers:
Scottish Election’21
is
Indyref2
This is what happens when your leadership reduces everything to approval ratings and opinion polls. Yes, they get to point score down the line and say they voted against the deal that Labour voted for, but at what price?
And don’t forget, if the SNP can casually vote against the democratic will of the English people and their sovereign rights, you can bet your bottom dollar that English politicians will vote against ours. You’ve just justified them doing so.
The SNP gave up principle and the democratic argument for indyref2 when it proposed to stop Brexit. Voting against the deal just underlines the point.
It’s farcical. No long-term thinking or strategy whatsoever, on anything.
Andrew Morton @ 12:18 pm
I’m old enough to remember 1979. If the SNP vote for this deal then in 5, 10, 20, 30, 40 years time the opposition will be yelling, ‘But you voted for the deal!’
And in 40 years’ time Scotland’s First Minister, Baroness Sturgeon, will be saying, “There can be no discussion on independence until the economic impact of rising sea levels has been dealt with…”
It’s high time Sturgeon was put out to posture.
A political party always has its own agendas, a political party often does not listen to the people, political parties climb the financial ladder and make a contest to outdo other political parties. They look for esteem and rewards, they look to building a personal reputation. A political party has no interest in the people once they find these things.. political parties aims are to have set code whereby you follow the whip and vote with that party no matter what your thoughts or opinions are,
Political parties close down free speech of the people they are supposed to represent when they have gain the financial rung on the ladder of self esteem.
We the people in Scotland must devise a new way to be ruled by our people, that cannot be monopolised by one or two political parties alone in a country, the unbalance of the party and first past the post voting system must go, it never worked for Scotland and was not meant to.
We the people need to feel the urgency of this now, more than ever, our whole world is changed and changing.
Perhaps it might not be a bad idea to insist, that in Scotland, to form a Government there has to be at least a minimum of ten political parties that have to be there, or a goverment cannot go ahead and pass a law. These political parties must not be aligned with the other parties.
Or with each other personally or in business interactions any way whatsoever.
We need this system to ensure that Scotland is ruled more by the people than by a government. We elect these political parties by one vote, should any leave their political party we the people vote for the replacement, no longer can political parties become internally selected as this leads to corruption.
Add to these ideas or refine them, but please keep in mind the purpose is to keep the power with the sovereign people, that no political party can work on it own agenda,
It appears the only thing for it now is to sit and watch how the deal works in practice. Let it fail where it is worse than what we currently have. Let Northern Ireland succeed as a special zone within the EU customs union and demand the same for Scotland. We are never going to get a referendum any time soon. So we will have to just wait and see. There will be interesting developments this decade
on a zillion lampposts:
Scottish Election ’21
when
we the people say it’s Indyref2
it’s Indyre2
Fucksake, I never thought I’d find myself agreeing with George Foulkes…
I loathe the labour party for their inaction on key matters, serial broken promises and well-hidden agendas.
Do you see the problem SNP genderwoowoo party ?
Abstain. Even I can see that. The two options are both terrible.
Oh and next time do not give three and a half million quid to keep our enemies afloat.
Livonian @12:40 pm
“There will be interesting developments this decade”.
Thus speaks an indy glacialist.
I was quite disappointed with Joanna Cherry tweeting that. I honestly thought she had more sense…or maybe she’s been told to by the hierarchy.
Put out to posture
Raised a smile
England + Wales voted to leave the EU, Scotland + Northern Ireland didn’t. Neither of the latter have any means within the UK ‘constitution’ of preventing that exit.
Consequently, the solution must lie elsewhere.
We all know what that solution is and wish to see it in banner headline format.
So sad many would that the solution be hidden away from view, like some embarrassing misdeed.
Shameful indeed!
There is no point in Scotland demanding anything from Westminster.
They just laugh at us.
They could put it to the vote in the house and watch any genuine bill supportive
Of Scotland will be crushed by every other party 10 fold.
The UK gave nobody anything just for asking.
It fought for and risks have to be taken.
SNP are carrying Ken Dodd’s fluffy tickling stick in to
a war zone in hope the enemy might laugh themselves to death.
Kapelmeister at 12.40
I don’t feel good saying that bit there will be no referendum and no party willing to run the 2021 election as a plebiscite on indy with a chance of winning. There doesn’t really seem to be much other choice. We have to go away and re-evaluate our arguments for independence. We can’t just keep reusing the arguments from the last referendum because they are no longer relevant. Our best shot is waiting to see if and how bad this Brexit is in practice
Well the Yoons also appear to be unusually troubled by something about the SNP stance on this vote.
And it ain’t an SNP lack of principle, that’s for sure.
This is an interesting thread. Seems to suggest that the SNP voting against the deal doesn’t imply voting for no deal.
https://twitter.com/lukecooper100/status/1343517157318078465
“I’m old enough to remember 1979. If the SNP vote for this deal then in 5, 10, 20, 30, 40 years time the opposition will be yelling, ‘But you voted for the deal!’”
Jesus fucking Christ I’m going to start banning people if they keep being this fucking stupid.
(1) WE’RE SAYING THEY SHOULD ABSTAIN, NOT VOTE FOR IT
(2) THE MAIN OPPOSITION PARTY *IS* VOTING FOR IT SO THAT WOULDN’T BE MUCH OF A ZINGER ANYWAY
Shit on toast, BE MORE FUCKING ALERT THAN THIS.
“This is an interesting thread. Seems to suggest that the SNP voting against the deal doesn’t imply voting for no deal.”
Of course it does. The fact that there’s no realistic danger of it happening doesn’t mean they’re not still VOTING for it.
Another pointed article.
I thought I’d venture over to the other side of YES and see what WGD’s followers are making of it.
WGD has written, that its a great deal, because it means that when Scotland is Indy, and part of the EU, England cannot threaten to not trade with us. Which is a good point.
Couple of wee problems with it. We’re not Independent and the process for becoming Indy gets further away each day… oh, and the people entrusted to get us Indy, are voting against that Deal wee Ging is liking so much.
So, then I took a gander at the comments BTL. Wow, and I don’t mean that in a good way. Everyone is liking Wee Ging’s thoughts, and not in the least concerned that the SNP are intending to vote against the deal – but then there’s not a lot of need for joined up thinking when all your energy is invested in positives somewhere over the rainbow. LOOK AT THE POLLS.
There does not appear to be any sin that St Nicla cannot be forgiven for. And hell mend anyone who points them out.
On a tactical level, with regards the Brexit Deal – either the SNP MP’s walk out, or they abstain (they cannot vote for the deal, and then campaign later about it being against Scotland’s Sovereign will – a vote in favour of it, is ratifying it).
Really struggling to see how I can vote SNP in the future, unless there is tangible changes in direction.
And I really, really want to believe in the victory that happened at the NEC was the harbinger of change… but so far, I’m seeing no evidence.
If any of them are reading this, the ‘trust us, we have a secret plan’ technique has had the arse knocked out of it – just so you know.
“Well the Yoons also appear to be unusually troubled by something about the SNP stance on this vote.”
They’re not troubled by it, they’re enjoying having a nice easy target to shoot at for a bit.
This is from the Bbc ,
“ Brexit: Britons warned to prepare for ‘some disruption’ “
And the interesting part of it is this ,
“ And Labour called it a “thin deal” that needed “more work” to protect UK jobs.
Conservative grandee Lord Heseltine has urged MPs and peers to abstain when voting on the deal, warning it will inflict “lasting damage” on the UK. The former deputy prime minister said he will “in no way share the endorsement of the legislation”, but that he will not vote against it because the consequences of a no-deal would be even graver. “
.
I wonder if any of the Tory Mps will take M Heseltines advice and abstain on the vote and knowing how Labour Mps are happy to sit on the fence and collect skelfs in their a*ses by not voting ,
It would be ironic if we ended up with “ A no deal Brexit * because of the Snp voting against it and the Tory’s ended up getting their * no deal Brexit * which is what they’ve always wanted .
https://archive.vn/PwbGa
“WGD has written, that its a great deal, because it means that when Scotland is Indy, and part of the EU, England cannot threaten to not trade with us. Which is a good point.”
It’s a slightly good point, but we still need to (a) become independent, and (b) get back into the EU.
Livonian @12:51
Our overriding argument for indy is simply that of a nation’s right to be free. That never has to be re-evaluated.
Your strategy is to watch and wait. Hasn’t the SNP policy of the last few years, of waiting for indy to fall into our laps by the turn of events been shown up as hopeless? Yet you want more of the same.
What nation in history ever won independence by refraining from being proactive about it?
You can only vote Black or White.
“We want grey”!!
Wait, wait an see, Waiting, waiting, that’s all we ever do, waiting for the nails to hammer Scotland down, so all wriggle has disappeared,
You might as well sell your soul and sovereignty for English gold. Ring any bells.
This is appalling, this shame that hangs over Scotland’s people , the shame that our children and grandchildren will turn on us for, the shame of Leaving it to someone else. Always to someone else, waiting, waiting to see what happens with other political parties, not with the people, the waiting for a chance, (many have passed) the shame of not grasping the thistle for the Scottish sovereign people out of the hands of corrupt governments mostly run by corrupt politicians,
This is indeed a sad moment in our history, that the Scottish people failed Scotland
“Exactly how the Tories planned it, and you have fallen for it hook line and sinker. The SNP is supporting the Scottish people who voted, not for no deal, a bad deal or any other deal, but to remain in the EU.”
Remaining in the EU is NOT ON THE TABLE, you dopey twat. We ALREADY LEFT THE EU 11 MONTHS AGO.
I caught on to this Sturgeon tactic awhile back, her latest look at me I’m the good guy routine centred around this.
Of course Sturgeon is only asking because by doing so she’s in a no lose situation, if Johnson says no Sturgeon can say I asked but I was refused, and if she’s successful, Sturgeon can bang the I’m working for the interests of Scots drum.
Its a sideshow the main event passed us by (Our EU exit) with Sturgeon promising much but delivering nothing, four years later when we should be an independent nation, Sturgeon’s still bleating over EU scraps, but of course there’s an election to be won next year (Though I have serious doubts it will be held on the date) so the failing of Johnson are highlighted.
The scenario you describe, with the SNP winning in May and leaving us with nowhere to go, might be a positive outcome in the long run. More people will see how toothless they have become and there’ll be five years to transfer the Indy vote to a new party that can actually deliver. Not an ideal situation but probably the only way to remove the biggest obstacle to independence and give the people a voice.
Oh where did it all go wrong
Eh well possibly the wrong choice of leadership for starters ,
most of us were blinded by the
” next time we will get it right we will learn from past mistakes ”
How bloody dumb and trusting we were just one more push , it’s just round the corner , mistakenly we thought the leadership were reading the same book we were , mugs the lot of us .
A bit of planning wouldn’t have gotten us to this destination ,this dead end , this Cul de sac up shit creek without a paddle enough of the old metaphors we are fkd no disguising it well and truly .
Yep it has went spectacularly badly and we have ended up in a place we never thought we could be , we couldn’t be like the Labour Party we are different open and full of good honest ideas presented by good people it’s bloody embarrassing just thinking about it all now
I wonder how many folk have just said ah fk this I have better things to do I have wasted enough time money and energy on people I really trusted then found out they have been pissn about its not printable my thoughts on the leadership of the SNP right now it’s that bloody bad .
There’s no way the SNP can vote for the deal, that much is certain. Otherwise all we’d hear until the end of time is “stop complaining, this is what you voted for.”
But voting against the deal also means that forever more we’ll hear “shut up, you voted for a no deal which would have been even more damaging than this…”
Abstaining is the only option, why can’t the SNP see this? Why do they think they have control over the framing? Do they really think the opposition parties and media are listening when Alyn Smith bleats “no, no, no, stop, that’s not how we wanted to frame it, why won’t you listen to our version of framing, why are you all framing it according to how you want it to be framed? Waaahhhh waahhhh!”
Alyn Smith is even more of a self-important egotist if he thinks he’s the one who gets to decide how voting for a no-deal is going to be framed by the anti-SNP unionist media.
‘as we get on with winning the positive case for independence’ Says Nicla.
And there in lies the rub.
Keep it as subject up for discussion, a moral sounding talking shop, and all eyes and energy will focus on that, instead of facilitating the democratic means by which Scots can obtain Indy.
‘Course positive, tangible steps to obtaining Indy, would enable all members of the YES movement to work together, shoulders to the same wheel. Can’t have that now. What a magnificent example of how not to lead she is.
But hey, LOOK AT THE POLLS.
Re Harassment and Complaints Committee ,
Clear your diaries for the following dates ,
From the National this morning ,
“ Date set for Alex Salmond to break silence at Holyrood inquiry meeting “
“ALEX Salmond is to break his silence over the Government’s mishandling of complaints made against him when he appears before the Holyrood inquiry into the matter next month, it has emerged. Nicola Sturgeon is due to appear before the committee’s long-running probe a week later in what may be the final oral session of the inquiry, which began taking evidence from witnesses in August. Salmond will appear before the committee on January 19, while Sturgeon will give evidence on January 26. “
https://archive.vn/w47yZ
It’s time for Alex Salmond to expose the whole lot of them involved in stitching him up .
“WGD has written, that its a great deal, because it means that when Scotland is Indy, and part of the EU, England cannot threaten to not trade with us. Which is a good point.”
The Dug and his acolytes always look through rose tinted glasses and are in my opinion the frog at the bottom of the well. They focus on all the good points but completely miss the bad points, and the bigger picture, which is we have an FM who really doesn’t want independence, but because an election is in the offing, the word independence will be tossed around like a small boat in a hurricane by Sturgeon and her focus will be on condemning Johnson which makes her look good.
Spend any time on the dugs site and you’ll find that any criticism of Saint Nick is quickly shotdown by the commenters and even the Dug himself. Hell I even took abuse for calling Saint Nick Sturgeon.
For some time now, I’ve considered it the norm to be embarrassed by the ineptitude displayed by the current SNP leadership. I’m quite used to being regarded as an idiot with the memory and attention span of a goldfish by the unionist parties and their friends in the MSM. When the leadership of the SNP takes me for the same idiot, it tends to grate. It’s a sad day indeed, when the likes of Lord Foulkes speaks more truthfully than an elected SNP MP.
Talking of Lords – I hope and pray Boris Johnson offers the well house-trained Peter Wishart a knighthood for miscellaneous services rendered, as I’m convinced that despite SNP protocol, he would happily seize it with both hands and I’d win a wee bet that I have with myself.
Here’s hoping the New Year brings a return of Alex Salmond to get us the hell out of this morass.
You do not have to lift a sword or raise an army, the pen is mightier than the sword and intelligence wins the battle over both,
Possums,
Stand up and fight for your freedom, make your choice, choose who governs you.
Or play dead.
Stoops @1:11
And then, in your scenario, the new indy party that supplanted the SNP will have parliamentarians who suddenly find that their very nice monthly salary payments take the edge off any resolve. There are already people in the ISP that don’t exactly inspire confidence.
Independence will be finalised at the negotiating table, but it will only be won by the people on the streets.
The problem with abstaining is it needs action afterwards.
You can’t abstain because Scotland’s votes don’t matter. Then stay at WM knowing your votes don’t matter.
Abstaining would be a call to arms. It would need up be followed up by something ie withdrawing from WM (in a way that keeps short money) and it would be the start of the push for independence
You couldn’t abstain in such a massive constitutional issue on the basis your votes don’t matter then sit down and go back to business as usual
Another excellent article Stuart. It should never have come to this. If you start out wrong, you’ll end up wrong, and things began to go wrong the minute Nicola Sturgeon took over. The SNP MPs at Westminster have three days left to put things right.
@dakk says:
28 December, 2020 at 12:52 pm
“Well the Yoons also appear to be unusually troubled by something about the SNP stance on this vote.”
Who are you kidding? Not only have the SNP left an open goal, they’ve walked off the fucking pitch. In taking a “principled stance” they’ve gone against the very principles they have been shouting about since 2016. It’s like Caroline Lucas opening a coal fired power station in the middle of Brighton.
That’s an interesting input re Hesseltine.
I wonder what the voting numbers are looking like, if Labour does abstain/vote against.
The SNP would never be forgiven if their vote against thin gruel, delivered no gruel at all. Apart from over on the WGD’s site of course.
What is the anger about? Not voting for something you disagree with? Your vote not counting unless you vote with the tories and Labour? You are inviting yourself to a wanks conference then moaning that the SNP are not acting like wanks. Away and make soup or something.
I despair over those who can’t see through her.
I voted for, campaigned for, stood up for, believed in her but when you are faced with the truth, no matter how upsetting, you have to accept it.
I have this image of Nicola dressed like Oliver Twist, begging bowl out before Boris, with a stream of brave Scots behind her, weeping at the humiliation she has brought down on all our heads.
She is worse than awful.
Has she always been this way?
Stu is absolutely spot-on with this, abstention is the only sensible and honourable option.
Otherwise, you can guarantee the SNP will have “youse voted for no deal” thrown up at them until the end of recorded time.
Can’t believe the stupidity of the party on this, I am beginning to wonder if Nicola has lost the plot utterly.
Ah, looks like the sheeple were right, after all, Nicola Sturgeon has just unveiled her “clever secret plan” Oh my god, is there actually anyone left in Scotland who does not think that woman should be as far away from Bute House and the leadership of the SNP as can be imaginable
Kepalmeister, better or more accurate words could not be spoken, independence will be won by the people,
All I will add,
And by the people alone.
“Michael Cavanagh says:
28 December, 2020 at 1:30 pm
What is the anger about?”
Is one of the stupidest comments I’ve ever had the misfortune to read here….and the choice is wide.
SNP MP’s are acting in support of the union if they do not seek to withdraw Scottish sovereignty at such an opportune time.
Holyrood under the SNP is merely a second layer of Scotland’s colonial governance.
The whole business smacks of desperation. We are out of Europe by English popular demand. That ship sailed some time ago and Europe have now offered a deal, not a re,entry.
Its only grandstanding to say we will vote no as if that somehow reaffirms the SNP opposition to being put out of the EU by our neighbours. It is too bloody late for that.
Alyn Smith asked Europe to leave a light on. We have sent someone to find that light who is wearing a blindfold.
We missed the boat. Ask yourself honestly. Why?
Any bets on the Tories still managing to blow/ rip-up this deal somehow, regardless of the vote, and winding up with a no-deal?
I’d be very careful how I voted if I was the SNP.
Basically, the SNP is one of two things: 1) it is so devoid of even native intelligence that it is to all intents and purposes braindead; or 2) it is completely devoid of a plan to take us out of this mess because it has concentrated solely on subsidiary, electorate-infuriating policies and staying in power at the expense of its own power-base and the wider electorate. Or, alternatively, of course, it could be both of those.
Voting against what was always going to be a next-to-useless deal, but a deal that was necessary to keep English Brexiteers quiescent, is utterly, totally pointless, as so many of the SNP MPs now appear to be. So many lost opportunities, deliberately squandered, since 2014. When are they going to understand that it is in the numbers that the real democratic deficit lies. In the numbers – which we cannot do anything about except breed like demented rabbits, so we have to get the hell out of there, staying being a pointless exercise in self-harm and masochism.
Is any other party going to put a manifesto out making the election a plebiscite on independence and push it hard?
As an aside, I don’t understand people who think one of the choices here is “vote to Remain”. It’s deal or no deal and no amount of wishing what you wanted is there will make it so. It comes across as a way of denying to yourself that it’s too late for that.
I watched Rev Stu’s video earlier today re his defamation case against the dug and had another good laugh at his comment ‘…she’s an idiot that doesn’t know what words mean’. It seems ‘daddy bear’ Smith thinks we all have kezia brains when in fact it’s the other way around,
Alyn, give Kezia her brain back or at least a wee bit of it and you could get on with being the successful travesty of a human being that you are.
I confess the only political strategy I have any faith in now would be a mass walkout of Westminster. (For clarity, that’s faith it would ‘mean’ something, not faith it will happen).
If the SNP hasn’t the bottle to walk out on Westminster, then maybe the YES movement needs to find the bottle to walk out on the SNP.
It’s simply not acceptable to submit yourself to a no-win-scenario Hobson’s choice put in front of you by your colonial oppressors. The ONLY principled stance for a sovereign Nation to take is to dispute the act of colonial subjugation, and you’ll never do that playing by the arbitrary rules of Westminster, with tepid acquiescence to any “choice” dictated to you by Westminster’s colonial agenda.
I’m gonna repeat that again… “ It’s simply not acceptable to submit yourself to a no-win-scenario Hobson’s choice put in front of you by your colonial oppressors”. I’m saying it twice, because I had Westminster’s unconstitutional oppression in mind when I wrote it, but it’s equally unacceptable for the SNP to present us Independentists with a no-win-scenario of it’s own.
Will they do it and find the courage to walk out? I think not. When Westminster resolved to break International Law, the SNP sat on it’s hands when it should have marched out in disgust. The time to fight Brexit ran out last January, and the inept and useless SNP completely missed the boat.
Would it not be better for the snp to abstain.
Sitting on the fence and abstaining like a spineless loser is not a good option and no way they can vote for it so leaves only one option , to vote against which is the correct decision. They should then leave the premises and state they will not be back. They will still get paid and so they can plan for independence referendum and be able to pay plenty of support staff.
The SNP is a rudderless ship, with Admiral Sturgeon, Captain Blackford, Lieutenant Smith and Wishart the cabin boy standing on the poop deck, desperately blowing hot air into the sails in the hope of avoiding the three skerries marked Brexit, Salmond and IndyRef2.
The rest of the crew are running around like headless chickens meantime, trying to avoid acknowledging the obvious and impending disaster with talk of hate speech, diversity, minorities, gender and what terminology should legally define a woman.
The sooner the SS Murrell goes to the bottom with all hands the better.
It occurs to me that, in still fighting on the basis of “remaining in the EU”, the SNP risk coming across like that Japanese soldier who was found decades later, almost irredeemably lost and fighting a war long ago lost and concluded.
You could see this “choice” trap between no deal and crap deal being set up for the SNP years ago by the unionist parties. It was mentioned several times in BTL comments of this blog and it was seen already then as a strategy to get Scotland’s consent to leave the EU by the back door.
Nicola Sturgeon’s SNP just walked, actually run, right into the trap and never had the dignity (decency?) to look back.
There is only one way out of that trap and that is denying the legitimacy of Westminster to act on behalf of Scotland by removing the SNP MPs from Westminster and declare that vote unlawful.
But do you see any, any at all, of these cowards even suggesting something like that? Do you see them moving their backsides towards the door? Not one. The most they can aim for is to walk a couple of steps with the maze but then they give it back and
sheepishly accept the punishment from England MPs for being “childish”.
Sturgeon’s tweet was pathetic, undignifying for an allegedly pro independence FM and leader of a party with 80% of the seats in Westminster. But hell, Smith’s one gets the prize for taking deception to a whole new dimension. That they even think the electorate are so thick to fall for this shit is what hurts the most.
It really is painful and embarrassing to watch how these charlatans verbally contort themselves and twist a lie in order to make it credible that they have any justification to take part in this vote when they have none at all.
45 charlatans giving consent for brexit on behalf of Scotland by the back door so their gravy train can continue, so this union can survive, so England gets what it votes for, once again, at the expense of Scotland.
Let’s take a good look at it, folks because here we have once again, the embarrassing and sour sight of betrayal by our own.
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
28 December, 2020 at 11:45 am
Fuck off, Bob.
From a knackered nurse, you’ve made me laugh out loud. Thank you Stu. You are a star.
There is a place in present day politics for you. Think you should make that step and let your voice be heard. You’d have the support of plenty.
Why don’t we ask the SFF ?
After all they wanted Brexit but are now truley stitched. So they get 15% more than what the have now – IN 5 YEARS LMAO
Just shows you,”you can’t always get what you want.”
Think there’s a song in there !
winifred mccartney says:
28 December, 2020 at 2:03 pm
Would it not be better for the snp to abstain.
No.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/24/at-long-last-we-have-a-brexit-deal-and-its-as-bad-as-you-thought
“This lousy deal is bad for Britain. That should be the only yardstick that matters. It is not complicated. Labour should oppose it.”
The SNP must love this deal really. After all they want to leave the UK and trade with it under its terms.
The best thing the SNP could do, is walk out of Westminster and not return. As for this upcoming vote, I really could not care less if I tried. Scotland is getting right royally f***ed at the hands of these English lying murderous Tories, and all the SNP can do is witter on about voting NO to a deal agreement.
Are they deluded? Do they not realise just how hacked off people are about getting forcibly stripped of their EU citizenship at the hands of England??
I genuinely think the SNP really don’t actually care. They are in this to win elections, NOT independence.
“There is a place in present day politics for you”
The Rev should be at the front of a political party contesting the constituency seats for the next Holyrood election and giving the current decaffeinated and toothless SNP charlatans a hard time and a dose of their own medicine. He has the brains, the leadership skills, the backbone and the lack of the inconvenient political correctness that often gets in the way of the truth.
He would get my unconditional vote and my thanks. No questions asked.
Cenchos at 142pm,
You make a good point. The best the SNP can do is simply abstain or walk out of the HoC permanently. However, in all reality the agreement will get approved, since the Tories have zero intention of adhering to its requirements. They will already be planning just how they will breach almost every single clause in the agreement. Perfidious Albion – England in a nutshell.
“The Brexit deal will pass regardless of how
@theSNP votes. Scotland’s voice & interests are unimportant to the Westminster establishment.”
This from Sturgeon makes my blood boil, she knows fine well that Westminster doesn’t give a toss about Scotland yet she’s let four years slip by, four vital years in which we could’ve held an indyref and had a bloody good chance of winning it. Now there’s an election on the horizon Sturgeon’s bumping her gums that an indyref is in the offering.
https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1343226282016993281
“WGD has written, that its a great deal, because it means that when Scotland is Indy, and part of the EU, England cannot threaten to not trade with us. Which is a good point.”
I would expect that, as members of the EU, any boycott by England against trade with Scotland would be treated as a boycott against all member states and treated accordingly.
To our SNP MPs! I speak as a card-carrying member of the SNP.
Your only honest option in the upcoming vote on the Deal is to abstain as loudly, vigorously, rambunctiously, and obstreperously as you possibly can, in order to make that abstention as memorable and newsworthy as possible. You must do this to highlight to the rest of the UK, the EU, and the world just how Scotland has been utterly disenfranchised from UK politics when it really really matters, and that this was done to us perfectly deliberately by Westminster.
You failed miserably to protect any of Scotland’s interests throughout the entire time since the Brexit referendum, and we won’t be forgetting that any time soon. If you want to redeem yourselves, then get us the hell out of this bloody-minded rats nest!
The choice of vote is not yours to make, it is ours, your constituents. You represent us, and as you hold the overwhelming majority of Scottish seats in Westminster, that makes you the authentic voice of Scotland. We require and demand that you raise that voice to an almighty shout of white-hot RAGE at the injustice done to us!
We demand justice, and none of you is entitled to rest until you achieve it.
Am I the only one who thinks the most significant tweet shown above is that from Kevin Williamson?
A lot of arrogance, entitlement and complacency there. Very Scottish Labour. People HATE that attitude and after the year we’ve all had, people are in a fractious mood.
The “optics” of voting against a Brexit deal, even if motivated by impeccable principles, makes the party leadership look somewhat foolish.
I’ve compared Sturgeon and her clique to Hillary Clinton on here before, and I think the comparison is reinforced by this attitude shown by Williamson. If anyone can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, they can. Remember, Clinton is Sturgeon’s hero.
The preparedness for the SNP to sit in the English parliament is rich in symbolism, rich enough to induce acute dyspepsia.
The SNP MPs really should not be voting at Westminster at all. They can make no difference, and how they vote on any given matter of any substance will provide ammunition for our enemies.
“We should be acting as if we are already an Independent Country”
SNP MP’s should have withdrawn from Westminster long before now. They simply should not be there. They should withdraw immediately.
There is nothing useful for them to do there.
Breeks, I follow your logic. This is now the grassroots yes movements only option, there is not a politician standing that has acknowledged the sovereignty of the Scottish people, even the EU ignored us in Brexit talks, however they were willing to negotiate with England the rights to our coastal waters for fishing quotas.
There are many ways that the Scottish people can aid your approach,
Wether I am right or wrong will be for others here to decide,
When we all realised the propaganda we were being fed by MSM, at first we protested outside their premises and wrote complaints to them, mentioned it on all our Scottish blogs, we soon realised that they just ignored us, laughed at us, or gave us more of the same in a slightly different format.
Scotland actually started what England now does, we stopped watching, stopped listening to them, we refused to pay a licence tax for something that harmed the Scottish people, slowly at first, then one by one others joined in, until the people were able to have an impact on the one of the most important media groups of the last century, until most Scots no longer payed the fee (tax). People have power, if you know how to use it and work together,
I am not sure what direction we can apply or take this method too to be affecting in being taking serious for the first time in 300 years, maybe council tax, car tax, vat, income tax, etc, but one thing is for sure that I have realised, if you refuse to follow, and instead lead, the leaders have no option but pay attention,
It was the threat of deminishing finances from the public that made the British media slowly take notice, and many of us were repeatedly threatened with imprisonments, but , we held our ground, that started a ripple across Britain, in England they now are more loud than us about the tv tax.
Yes we do as you are saying, to make/take it into the wider world and communities, to put it to them,.
But a part of me, says, we need to help ourselves to, we need the Eu, the un and human rights to take notice, the right to self determination is there, the claim of right is there, the broken treaty of the union is there, but whom has heeded this, whom has assisted our cries for independence, whom listened when Catalan people got beat up. And yet we have more legal rights in documentation than those poor souls had,
Physically Protesting is dangerous, and sad to say writing to politicians is ignored, but do like their money, they live and breath money, they start life wondering how to make more money, to have ultimate control over the minion mobs, they view us as Boris Johnson does, something to be got rid of, unless you contribute financially.
When you say no, to government taxes, you are refusing to be ruled by them, you are refusing their policies their power over you, basically you are choosing whom governs you.
Do not spend these money that are with held, because when you make a choice as to whom governs you, these taxes should be paid, you are simply withholding your taxes until you sort out and choose a new government, which you are entitled to do under the claim of right, the right to self determination, and human rights.
An ultimatum to the SNP MPs.
You have a choice.
Walk out on Westminster or walk out on Scotland.
Well Wings, it’s been fun, but this latest article takes the cake.
“Fuck off, Bob.”
Yup, that attitude of yours gets boring mighty quick. See ya pal.
kapelmeister @1:20
It’s not the salaries that corrupt a political party.
Stoops @3:46
But it helps.
The vote is irrelevant, the Tories have a majority. Scotland’s votes don’t count. Labour’s votes don’t count, the SNP’s votes don’t count and err the Lib-Dems votes don’t count. This isn’t difficult.
Why would a government bother to vote at all unless it had a reason to – The clue is that a government has to nominally represent everyone and in especial the majority of its electorate.
If more than half the electorate are in the ‘Remain’ category, the ‘Brexit Deal’ vote is irrelevant – there is no requirement to vote – so abstaining represents them.
That leaves the rest of the electorate with a vested interest in being represented and who fall into two categories: ‘Leave with a deal’ and ‘Leave with no deal’ – In order to nominally represent them, the government could – at a push – decide to vote.
It’s then a question, of which of those categories represent the majority view of the ‘Leavers’ which dictates the direction of representative vote – in this instance it would be ‘Vote Deal’
So by majority, the representation of the views of the Scottish electorate, dictates that the Scottish Government can only abstain, or possibly vote for a deal.
Voting against a deal, is indeed still representing some of the Scottish electorate, but only the minority to the exclusion of the others. This tells you all you need to know about who the Scottish Government actually aligns with.
You would be equally represented by UKIP or Tory hardliners
Welcome to Scotland.
Voting for a No Deal. Says it all. Years of defence against No Deal suddenly it becomes Ok to vote for it? No intellectual credibility whatsoever. Principles the SNP dont have any. Complete failures because they are standing behind the dear leader instead of the people. Stu has nailed it again. There would be less criticism of the SNP if their MPs and MSPs acting with credibility. Break away MPs and MSPs and act with your conscience if you have any.
Sometimes there might be a simple answer.
Imagine you’re one of 48 native collaborators elected to the House of Commons for five years in December 2019 to serve the colonial government. This is what you can look forward to;
Basic annual salary £81,932
Subsidised food and drink in Members’ dining room
Allowances to cover costs of running an office and employing staff
Allowance to cover cost of maintaining constituency residence or London residence
Food allowance of £25/day if staying in London
’Dine inside … The House of Commons is a very British affair … white tablecloths and political-themed art-lined walls … dining rooms a sense of grandeur and political intrigue, …’
See photo in article.
‘Our great value wine selection lists a range of wines from across the globe …’
Taken from “Suffer the little children – in Tory England’ by Margaret Johnstone.
26 October 2020, newsnet.scot
It’s obvious why now is not the time.
Campbell says:
28 December, 2020 at 1:06 pm
“Remain in the EU is not on the table, YOU DOPEY TWAT, we already left the EU 11 months ago”
If you had read my post properly, you would have noted that I didn’t deny that we had already left.
“Exactly how the Tories planned it, and you have fallen for it hook line and sinker. The SNP is supporting the Scottish people who voted, not for no deal, a bad deal or any other deal, but to remain in the EU.”
It would be a betrayal of the people of Scotland to condone leaving the EU under any circumstances, even retrospectively. If you believe that support for this deal would not be used in the future to suggest that the SNP had betrayed the Scottish people, you are politically naive.
Resorting to personal insults is a sure sign that you are unable to respond constructively to my post.
The only option is to add an amendment for an extension to negotiate a better deal or rescind leaving. Then the position is spelt out.
Just to reply and add to some comments in the previous post.
This is a pincer move by Bojo and Starmer. Now it looks like Nicola/SNP is the one wanting a No Deal when this is all Bojo’s and Tories’ fault in the first place. Technically the fallout will be minor IMO, but Nicola has to sell this to the Scots. And this can only be sold by having a referendum in one way or another.
Just to reply to my comment about how it is imperative to vote SNP in the constituency seats in order for ISP to get through via the list seats.
Firstly, I don’t have a vote as I don’t live in Scotland. I am invested in Scottish independence for reasons of my own.
Secondly, I always advocate voting with your conscience. I dislike voting-for-the-lesser-evilism. This is what that got us in this mess in the first place. You must be able to make peace with your conscience when the results are counted. If it means by not voting SNP, then go ahead. If I were to vote, I will vote for SNP 1 and ISP2 because I can live with it (I want to game the electoral system which brings to my third point).
Thirdly, the electoral system in Scotland is a PR one. At this point of time, SNP and the unionist parties will be represented even if they get 10% of the votes. Again for me is better having SNP plus ISP rather than taking the chances of allowing unionist MSPs to slip in. The easiest way is to maximise SNP on the constituency and ISP on the list votes. I also want to stress your list votes is actually the MORE IMPORTANT one. Regardless of what I have reasoned here, make sure you campaign for ISP on the list vote and campaign hard. Make sure that the like minded SNP voters lend their votes to ISP on the list. As I have said 1 ISP MSP from every region is very much doable. It is about vote management; you have to make sure you get around 10-15K minimum. This is somewhat like the Irish election (and the reason why SF did not win the election was that the got a lot of votes but not enough candidates for the excess; this is another different system though).
Whatever happens from now on till May is anyone’s guess but we have seen that SNP is woefully inadequate to lead us to independence. We really need another party as an insurance.
@Ron MacLean 4 08
That wouldn’t take my integrity from me. They have to act with their conscience and belief. Siding with a loser is no way to act. Enough of this failed Presidential system. Time to act on behalf of the people you represent. Vote for the deal because because if you don’t and a No deal wins (Unlikely but a possibility) don’t expect anything but scorn.
Sturgeon has missed her opportunity with the EU. She is no longer of use to them.
A newly independent Scotland would be applying to join the EU from scratch, not to re-join it on existing terms.
The requirements for the application would be set for the benefit of the EU and it’s existing members, not the people and businesses of Scotland.
Nicola Sturgeon
2021 is the year of you putting up or shutting up
Don’t troll a nation any more
Aye Scotland is still being sold for English gold.
Sturgeon a has just scored into her own goal saying “The Brexit deal will pass regardless of how @theSNP votes.”. As I’m been saying for years a vote for the SNP to send MP’s to Westminster is not only just a waste of time, its also a vote to say you want to remain part of the British establishment. Unless your sending a huge majority of SNP MP’s to remove the Scots from the union which the SNP aren’t interested in doing, then we should be doing what Sinn Féin do refusing to take up seats in a foreign country. Sturgeon makes blunder after blunder her reign as leader of the SNP will come to end at some point but what will it cost Scotland and its economy. When you have a 90k salary every year for 5yrs guaranteed and all the food your stomach take and all the perks that comes from being a MP or MSP then I’m pretty sure Independence isn’t on any of MP’S MSP minds.
Whether a naw-deal brexit or a flaw-deal brexit it’s still England’s brexit. That said the SNP/SG continues to obediently play along with britnat Westminster’s games. It’s sickening to behold. In doing so the SNP/SG sucks the life out of the independence movement.
FFS! SNP, do something!
@MaggieC
So, Sturgeon to resign on Jan 30 or 31 then. Even if she steps down before then the date with the inquiry will still have to happen. Prob why she is hanging on. Some more months of status and salary to collect and enjoy.
The British Government excluded Scotland from all negotiations on Brexit and so the deal negotiated is for the British Government to own. We, the Scottish Government want no part in it. We abstain.
And then walk out.
@Scotsrenewables 1 34
For once we agree I have no idea what the SNP are up to here?
Exactly. Stand up, say the Sovereign people of Scotland want no part of this stitch up and walk out.
I must say that as a long term supporter of Wings, I have become a little hacked off at the current anti SNP rants. However, in this case I have to agree, unfortunately we have left the EU and these sloppy messages need challenged.
But please remember, we have to consolidate behind the independence banner and if if it means swallowing our pride and supporting the SNP then this must be done in the short term.
Once the elections are over in May, then return to the attack but please, give it a rest for a bit.
The SNP are shooting themselves in the head with this one: the only course of action is to abstain then walk out.
@Muscleguy 4 59
I agree with MaggieC. I think Sturgeons resignation is imminent. In football parlance she has lost the dressing room. Decisions are becoming more incredulous by the minute. Voting for a No Deal? Absolute nonsense.
Email received from Martin Keatings this afternoon ,
“ Update on Peoples Action on Section 30 “
Merry Christmas and a Happy Hogmanay when it comes.
This will be the final update for 2020. We’re fully on-course for the hearing on the 21st and 22nd of January, although there will likely be a hearing in the interim with respect to some documents. We’ll let you know more nearer the time. This will have no effect on the substantive hearing.
In addition, I can confirm that the re-opening of the fundraiser has seen an additional £18000 added to the war chest and it continues to trundle along at pace. We’d appreciate it if you could continue to promote it.
Link: http://www.crowdjustice.com/pas30
I can also confirm that from today, from the different avenues of support, we have officially moved into 5 figures with respect to backing for the case. The case is now supported by over 10,000 people. Woohoo!
As always, I shall update you as more information becomes available, but until then I hope you are all happy, healthy and have managed to find yourself just a modicum of normality in the insanity that is a lockdown holiday.
All the best
Martin Keatings
Craig Evans…
If we wheesht for Indy, after May, and assuming the SNP is returned in sufficient numbers to form an administration, what then?
Will the MPs/MSPs suddenly start listening to the grass roots?
Will Sturgeon go quietly into the night?
Will Blackford and his merry band of bench warmers suddenly have influence at Westminster in a manner which they do not currently enjoy?
What will be the sudden opportunity to change the direction of the SNP which is not available to us now?
Surely a resounding victory in May will strengthen Sturgeon’s position. Furthermore, those sympathetic to the Sturgeon vision will be plugging seats at Holyrood in greater numbers than is currently the case; given the selection process has been geared towards those having policy priorities which don’t necessarily include Indy.
I simply don’t see what is to be gained by spending 5 months mimicking the three wise monkeys.
Enlighten me/us, please.
People like Alyn Smith and his ilk are our enemy every much as the Westminster Tories. Like excrement from a sewer he leaks out to spread a bad smell.
The SNP have no input into this. They are prostitutes on a stick stuffing their faces with their masters lucre.
The Brexit exit is done. Scotland is out of the EU. There is either a trade deal or no deal. The SNP did not deliver what they were mandated to do and is a measure of Alyn Smith’s prostitution how he and the rest of them limp on in Westminster having sold Scotland down the river.
@ Robert Louis
“Do they not realise just how hacked off people are about getting forcibly stripped of their EU citizenship at the hands of England??”
I know and talk to a few people. The subject has never come up.
Is it possible you move in rarified circles where stravaiging around the EU has become the norm and that this is clouding your judgement? I suspect there are millions of Scots who care not a jot as they have never even considered moving to or even holidaying in Lithuania, Germany or Malta.
Most Scots who desire to move on or move up go to London.
@willie 6 01
How Daddy Bear has basterdised this vote into a vote for the EU is beyond all belief.
@ Rev – the fact that Joanna Cherry supports voting against the deal does make me pause for thought. After all, she isn’t a fool nor is she a blind loyalist.
@sarah 6 16
Ok I am listening. What is Joanna’s cunning plan?. I like her, she is worthy of respect. Overall I think the game is bogie. Is she trading off being able to sit in the Holyrood Elections in May for her support now on this vote? Nothing else makes sense!
Will the Westminster vote be an “up or down” vote or will it be amendable? If it is amendable, I daresay there could be a situation that could justify the SNP voting against, after submitting numerous amendments. I can’t think of any off the top of my head, but then I’m not a seat-warming, veteran parliamentarian.
On the other hand, if this is a three-readings-in-one-day thing, with no meaningful time for debate on amendments, why on earth would they wish to vote against? Voting for the agreement would be less of a nonsense.
Geordie pordie Galloway attended the
Q ofthe S game breaking covid travelling rules.
The wee shit
The SNP have the luxury of knowing their protest will be registered and acknowledged but their vote will not make a difference.
This is a way of saying we don’t support the deal and assuming there will be no repercussions. But there will be as each vote is never taken in isolation but in the context of all the baggage of previous conflicting positions. Just look at Ross Colquhoun dredging up the Scot Tories previous statements:
https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun/status/1343246396116369408
So be prepared for the onslaught to continue and for this to provide election fodder for the next 6 months or so. Alyn Smith is going to take some stick for his weasel words but they demonstrate more than ever what a shyster he is.
Maybe better to wash their hands of the deal publicly, making it clear they know their vote doesn’t count for anything, reiterating this is the democratic deficit in action and abstain.
@Tannadice Boy says:
28 December, 2020 at 6:13 pm
@willie 6 01
“How Daddy Bear has basterdised this vote into a vote for the EU is beyond all belief.”
Easy. The vote is “identifying” as a vote for the EU and must be recognised as such…
Is there actually anyone who is competent in the SNP’s ‘leadership’?
Al-Stuart
You still appear to think your judgement is superior to mine, and imagine that you are competent to tell me how to play the game. I’m not sure I agree with that analysis, if that’s how you see things. 😉
https://www.oecd.org/gov/open-government/innovative-citizen-participation-new-democratic-institutions-catching-the-deliberative-wave-highlights.pdf
I can’t believe I’m saying this but Johnson has been pretty savvy and with this deal and has his opponents- Sturgeon, Starmer and the hardliners in his own party- over a barrel. If they reject this terrible deal, they’re left with nothing.
The wisest course of action for the SNP would be to just try get the political aspects over and done with. The social and economic consequences will speak for themselves; my advice would be just to walk out.
Sturgeon’s insistence on voting against shows, just like her selfie with mass-murderer Alistair Campbell, that she is still more interested in pandering to middle-class English liberals than she is to winning Scotland’s independence.
Abstaining would have been my choice and my earlier guess at SNP intention but a vote against doesn’t surprise me nor does it upset me. Either choices leave the SNP wide open to attack but not particularly serious nor damaging attack.
Alyn Smith’s tweet, on the other hand, is just guff and to be expected.
@Beaker 63 38
But the EU have agreed this deal subject to blah blah. . If you identified with the EU you would support their deal. And I say their deal because they are signing it off. I said to you a while the boat has sailed as far as the EU goes.
The best we can hope for is some form of a negotiated deal. But the extreme hard right wing Nationalist party are voting for a No Deal. Fanciful comment?? That would be my MSM take.
By voting at all the SNP are simply affirming the fact that they are part of a UK govt with a Brexit agenda. Abstain and walk out saying that “Scotland wants nothing to do with this”. Then come home and announce UDI – but they won’t.
TD – I was being sarcastic (about Smith). Think of gender recognition 🙂 (I know, poor joke but I just finished painting the bloody bathroom)
Meanwhile on Twitter, #NoDealNicola is trending at Number 2. I’d say that the SNP shot themselves in the foot, but it appears they don’t even know what way to point it.
Well the BBC is at it again!!
On the main UK site the English figures are provided for the day with the headline “England’s “very high” Covid infection level is a “growing concern” as the NHS struggles to cope with rising patient numbers, a health official has said.”
While on the Scottish site
“Covid in Scotland: Confirmed cases pass 120,000 – Almost 1,000 positive tests for Covid-19 have been recorded in the past 24 hours, taking the total number of confirmed cases to more than 120,000.”
The actual numbers are
Scotland 796
England 41385
Given population different England should have around 8000 infection
Clearly the virus is well out of control down south
It is terrifying that some people on here are still unaware of what Stu’s post is about , simply put
If the SNP vote FOR the deal they are FUCKED , they will be trolled unmercifully for it for EVER
If the SNP vote AGAINST the deal they are FUCKED they will be trolled unmercifully for it forever as that will appear that they want NO DEAL
They MUST ABSTAIN because the deal DOESN’T MATTER TO THEM for or against as they were NOT INVOLVED IN IT
What is even more concerning is that Sturgeon doesn’t see the STUPIDITY of either option
To think we had Scottish Labour Erseholes for 70 years running the show in Scotland. In #6wastedyears the SNP have managed to out ersehole the erseholes !!
Who would have thought it possible in such a short time
@twathater 7 13
Are you rewriting Stu’s post?. “Voting against the deal would be a bad strategy”. Clear to me.
“What is even more concerning is that Sturgeon doesn’t see the STUPIDITY of either option”
At this point, frankly, how do we know that she does not see the stupidity in either option but she is going for it anyway to completely destroy the SNP?
I mean, looking at what she has done so far to the party, are we actually surprised that she and her cheerleaders like Smith are sending our MPs like lambs to the slaughter voting for the no deal?
Unless the SNP MPs walk out of Westminster at this the eleventh hour then they will be forever remembered for their cravenness and fealty to a false leader.
“One of the most deadly causes of destruction of divine destinies is when a leader is failing, but he or she does not know it. Ignorance about your role is a death plot against the successes of the people.” Israelmore Ayivor
@twathater says:
28 December, 2020 at 7:13 pm
“If the SNP vote AGAINST the deal they are FUCKED they will be trolled unmercifully for it forever as that will appear that they want NO DEAL”
Agree with you on all points.
However, they are already being trolled on Twitter. Like seriously trolled (22K at last count). Even worse, it is Carlaw’s tweet that is trending. Anything and everything else is being piled on to the trend, care homes etc.
Just wait until tomorrow’s briefing…
It’ll be interesting to see the MSM response to Salmond’s appearance at the inquiry. Up until now they’ve been very one sided but I’ll be surprised if they aren’t a bit more objective and impartial this time.
I’m not suggesting they’ll switch sides but with the election getting closer I expect they will give a lot of thought to maximising damage to the independence movement. Let’s not forget that the real enemy for the British State in Scotland remains what it always has been – you and all the other people that think Scotland should control its own affairs and resources.
The way you maximise damage is by backing both sides, of course, just as you might supply arms to both sides in a war… this is the trap they’ve set for the SNP and it’s why those who pledge support for Sturgeon (no matter what comes out of the inquiry) are so stupid and wrong. They’re walking right into this.
Craig Evans says:
28 December, 2020 at 5:22 pm
“….But please remember, we have to consolidate behind the independence banner and if if it means swallowing our pride and supporting the SNP then this must be done in the short term…”
Swallowing my ‘pride’ to vote SNP? I don’t know what planet you’re living on Craig, but most of us here stand full square in defence of the Independence Banner, and it’s the SNP which has taken leave of it’s senses and abandoned us.
If the SNP wants my vote in May, then it’s not me, but the SNP which needs to swallow it’s pride, or choke to death on it’s hubris.
Indeed, part of that hubris is believing they have until May to ‘sort’ this. They don’t. The SNP have three days to defend the sovereign Constitution of my Nation, after which the useless and incompetent SNP is dead to me.
ebreah @4:21pm
> This is a pincer move by Bojo and Starmer.
Absolutely. Now Boris can turn to the English and say with a clear conscience that the SNP would have fucked them over big time so perhaps it’s time the malcontents in Holyrood were taught a lesson.
There’s no good outcome from this. The best option is not to attend or walk out. Since, apparently, it’s all about framing, use the opportunity to remind everyone that Scotland voted to remain and how the Union has failed and will continue to fail when a minority in a larger country can ride roughshod over any arrangement, including some federal fantasy.
There. That took about 30 mins reading comments here and half a day to mull stuff over and already I have a strategy that outshines the government’s. Good grief!
twathater
Abstaining is not an option either. They need to be out of Westminster when the vote is taken.
English votes for English laws – let them get on with it. We want no part of that madness.
Craig Evans: “if it means swallowing our pride and supporting the SNP then this must be done in the short term. Once the elections are over in May, then return to the attack but please, give it a rest for a bit.”
Nah. And, actually, it’s blind loyalists like you that caused this shit-show.
I’m certainly not suggesting my judgement is perfect or intrinsically superior because I’m a better person. The thing is, you don’t study a shed-load of law and stuff from a critical perspective without strengthing your ‘judgement muscles’. Though walking back into this mode of thought and frame of being, after almost thirty years, isn’t as straight-forwards as some might think. Being awake to social reality and the relational autonomy of others takes practice, and I am very, very, rusty. 😉
Teaching Democracy Globally, Internationally, and Comparatively: The 21st-Century Civic Mission of Schools
https://www.civiced.org/papers/articles_patrick_global.pdf
@Mia 7 30
Agreed. I saw the fundamental limitations in the NS character five years ago. Their by the grace of God go I. Glad the rest of you are catching up. She will not deliver Independence. She will bring the house down, one of her main prophecies. A human behavioural case worthy of Hannibal Lector analysis.
Tannadice Boy
I worked with her uncle, in so-many ways, she reminds me of how he went on.
@Socrates MacSporran 7 53
I don’t take enjoyment out of a downfall of a leader of a career. But for the sake of the Independence movement she has to go. And the disappointment is none of her MPs or MSPs have seen it coming.
# Cause we ARE awaa tae bide awaa…# It’s up to SNP MPs to decide if it’s them or us.
Stuart MacKay,
I’m not having a go but for SNP MPSs not turn up and to not take part in the vote may well appeal to you and perhaps me but are you sure it would appeal to the majority of constituents who voted to send an SNP guy down to Westminster to represent them?
I’m not so sure it would.
I’d abstain, but WTF, it’s not up to me.
Can’t imagine SNP voters and other Independence supporters are happy to see the SNP taking the same line as the DUP!
DUP
“When Parliament is recalled on Wednesday we will vote against this agreement. We will do so as a point of principle and not because we supported a no deal option”.
https://mydup.com/news/dup-considers-uk-eu-trade-and-cooperation-agreement
SNP (FM Sturgeon)
“Far better then for our MPs to cast a principled vote against Brexit
See the Rev’s 3rd box above
The definition of “principles”. A fundamental belief in the truth of their cause. Ah well that’s Ok the SNP will vote for No Deal. They will get hammered over this stance, No Deal, No SNP. I am writing the headlines already. Will SNP politicians grow up? Vote for the EU deal or at least Abstain. Are you incapable of Independent thought?. What has Nicola got over you? Let me guess..
@Hatuey says:
28 December, 2020 at 7:45 pm
Craig Evans: “if it means swallowing our pride and supporting the SNP then this must be done in the short term. Once the elections are over in May, then return to the attack but please, give it a rest for a bit.”
Nah. And, actually, it’s blind loyalists like you that caused this shit-show.
I kind of see what he means, but it’s a bit of a Devil-and-the-deep-blue-sea choice. Vote SNP again so that pro-indy* parties are in a majority**, or allow anti-indy parties to form a government?
* Yes, yes; nominally pro-indy, then.
** My inner optimist hopes that the Greens/ISP?/some of the SNP might push the agenda. My outer pessimist, however…
Hope from below: composing the commons in Iceland
Never again can the world be told by the custodians of the old that the people cannot be relied upon to write the contract between citizens and government, and write it well.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/hope-from-below-composing-commons-in-iceland/
If only a large chunk of our political class weren’t either self-serving, compromised, or simply out of their depth.
Democracy Without Participation: A New Politics for a Disengaged Era
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11158-017-9382-1
“Changing patterns of political participation observed by political scientists over the past half-century undermine traditional democratic theory and practice. The vast majority of democratic theory, and deliberative democratic theory in particular, either implicitly or explicitly assumes the need for widespread citizen participation. It requires that all citizens possess the opportunity to participate and also that they take up this opportunity.
But empirical evidence gathered over the past half-century strongly suggests that many citizens do not have a meaningful opportunity to participate in the ways that many democratic theorists require, and do not participate in anything like the numbers that they believe is necessary. This paper outlines some of the profound changes that have been experienced by liberal democratic states in the 20th and early 21st Centuries, changes which are still ongoing, and which have resulted in declines in citizens participation and trust, the marginalisation of citizens from democratic life, and the entrenchment of social and economic inequalities which have damaged democracy.
The paper challenges the conventional wisdom in rejecting the idea that the future of democracy lies in encouraging more widespread participation. The paper takes seriously the failure of the strategies adopted by many states to increase participation, especially among the poor, and suggests that instead of requiring more of citizens, we should in fact be requiring less of them.
Instead of seeking to encourage more citizen participation, we should acknowledge that citizens will probably not participate in the volume, or in the ways, many democratic theorists would like, and that therefore we need an alternative approach: a regime which can continue to produce democratic outcomes, and which satisfies the requirements of political equality, in the absence of widespread participation by citizens.”
Let’s start finding out what has led the SNP to this position. An unprincipled position of a No Deal. I will start with my own Dundee West MP. Chris Law. Narrowly avoided a charge of fraud because the PF withdrew the charge because of a lack of evidence. Next up serious charges of bullying, withdrawn under pressure. Men of Clay. WOS readers spill the dirt on your own MP and MSP. We may not get the SNP back but these troughees will need to fight for their position.
Craig Evans
Sturgeon has abandoned independence the evidence is all there. A vote for the SNP has now become a vote for the union and they are not getting mine anymore.
I shall vote ISP.
Meanwhile british nationalist senior civil servants, appointed by Westminster, still remain in Holyrood. Just how influential are these britnat bums?
Mr Williamson is no doubt very happy to toe the party line and soak up funding for his culture ventures.
Speaking of culture, a book by a very well respected Scottish author is being published in January featuring an egotistical male ‘culture minister’.
All manner of poor behaviour is detailed.
Who on earth could this portrayal be based on, I wonder?
Ben Madigan says:
“Can’t imagine SNP voters and other Independence supporters are happy to see the SNP taking the same line as the DUP!”
Ben makes a very important observation. The SNP under Nicola Sturgeon are, to all intents and purposes, acting as the Scottish Unionist Party.
#NoDealNicola is trending hard…
STV at 10.30pm screened a News Review which
turned out to be a Unionist Party Political Broadcast
Where Scotland and SNP are badder than bad and
everything we have or do is worse that in Engerlund.
Both barrels let off spewing Westminster’s propaganda.
Why OH why do SNP permit his shit to go unchallenged.
Write and ask how an architect and ventilation engineers
Mistake at our new hospital compare to the 100’s of
Needless deaths at Staffordshire’s main hospital.
How do our Care home deaths compare to England’s if they are counted the same way and do you
Know pro rate Scotland’s Civid Death rate is way far better than England’s.
Don’t let UK media set the questions set them straight with the full picture.
Demand the name of their researcher who came up with a distorted picture of the reality.
Walk out if they interior you.
FFS Do something to fight back!
And why should the SNP vote for a deal they don’t believe in.
And why should the DUP vote for a deal they don’t believe in.
Do you really think that by them both voting against makes then the same politically?
.
Cameron,
Your latest post giving you the powers of telepathy is wrong. At no point have I said my judgement is superior to you. I am not hearing the same voices in my head as you.
It is a fact that I have a legal degree, police certification, legal training that had to be rigorous enough to deprive peoples’ liberty by lawful power of arrest and many years actually practicing Scots law as an officer of that law.
Whereas it appears from BTL folk who know you in the real world attest that you have some form of, in your own words a “rusty” tangential association with planning law at Dundee combined with an OCD attachment to searching Google for other peoples’ academic work.
Because so many scroll past your links, your new habit of inserting several hundred extra words in quotes as a direct extract from the irrelevant legal thesis is increasing the IQ of yourself (Irritant Quotient).
I do know from empirical evidence on this site that spamming 25% to 30% of an entire thread with off-topic links to obscure indigestible legal text written by others is unpopular when many BTL readers tell you. I am self-aware enough to know MODT people being asked to moderate their bulk posting of 25% of your ilk might signal a decently alarm bell to LISTEN to others. Otherwise we are in the realms of sociopathic behaviour.
Even the site owner has advised you from his WOS WordPress stats panel that very FEW people read the obscure links you post again and again and again.
I was actually interested in the content of this thread and the BTL comments. Then you pop up with the CameronBB Brodie multiple posts of irrelevance.
Like a dud firework, you go phut.
Quantatively you go phut, phut, phut, bang, splat, phut, phut.
If CameonB did firework displays it would be like watching a box of damp matches mating with a packet of 80 year old sparklers.
Cameron, I am not superior to you. It is wrong of you to allege that.
It is becoming sadly evident that there is something far wrong with you. So from here on in, no matter how utterly frustrating you become, I think it wise to just leave you be. I would politely suggest you telephone your GP or CMH nurse, possibly even seek a psych., consult. You are evidently unaware that your actions of taking over 25% of many thread BTL sections with irrelevant OFF-topic guff is upsetting to a significant number of folk who have asked you to moderate your behaviour.
For the sake of your health Cameron, please seek (safe distanced) medical help.
Regards, Al.
————-
CameronB Brodie says…
Al-Stuart
You still appear to think your judgement is superior to mine, and imagine that you are competent to tell me how to play the game. I’m not sure I agree with that analysis, if that’s how you see things.
Cameron said:
‘and imagine that you are competent to tell me how to play the game.’
What game are you playing and is it fair to play that game on this comments board? OR do you wish to continue to upset Wings and people who read him? Is that your aim?
Wings tolerates a lot and is extremely patient – these are rare qualities in a man of his wit and wisdom. Is it a ‘game’ to you to test the forbearance of Wings?
Or is your main far more destructive? Is it your aim to destroy this site?
:…she’s worse than awful.
Has she always been that way?
Feel the same as you, we’re not alone.
Is it power that does it..
Is she now ‘absolutely corrupt?’
Monstrous.
Al-Stuart
I’ve never questioned you intelligence or attempted to instruct you in how to conduct yourself. You’ve obviously not picked up on my self-deprecating manner of selling myself, or the fact that I’m trying to introduce a bit of critical political science and stuff into the debate. Enough said?
Or is your aim </b
far more destructive?
I’ve no letters after my name, or linkin presence, but that does not mean I don’t know what I’m taking about. I’ve obviously not made that apparent enough to some.
Law, Cognition, and Identity
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/235288869.pdf
Effijy says:
28 December, 2020 at 10:54 pm
STV at 10.30pm ….
FFS Do something to fight back!
I’m sure murray foote has written a letter, put a 2nd class stamp on it and lost it on the way to a strategic dinner with mr sturgeon.
O/t so on thursday at midnight the world will sing a song written by Scotlands bard. Yet we are englands last colony.
Makes you weep.
Al-Stuart
OK, I encouraged you to go and take a horizontal jog to yourself, but I don’t try to tell you how to approach supporting Scotland’s democracy. 😉
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/german-law-journal/article/dialectics-between-constitutional-identity-and-common-constitutional-traditions-which-language-for-cooperative-constitutionalism-in-europe/E8D1FE181EB6A389ED739155A8F3BB80
Al-Stuart
OK, I am trying to show you in how to support Scotland’s democracy. Doh. 🙂
Constructing identity and relating to
difference: understanding the EU’s
mode of differentiation
https://library.fes.de/libalt/journals/swetsfulltext/18294341.pdf
“The case of the EU points to the need to re-conceptualise the relationship between self and other in the IR literature. I argue that the literature forces us into an artificial choice between the liberal constructivist approach of disregarding the constitutive role of difference in identity formation and the critical constructivist approach of assuming a behavioural relationship between self and other, and therefore cannot account for the diversity in the EU’s
interactions with various states on its periphery.
I identify three constitutive dimensions along which self/other relationships vary to produce or not produce relationships of Othering: nature of difference, social distance, and response of other. I analyse how the EU’s
interactions with Morocco, Turkey, and Central and Eastern European states are situated differently on these dimensions, and evaluate the question of whether the EU is a postmodern
collectivity based on these analyses.”
Cameron, do you read this stuff you regurgitate so prolificlly?
It is a perfect example of the vague drivel that has demeaned the academy.
paul
Care to outline the parameters of your assessment, and perhaps provide some technical evidence that what I’m posting is either vague drivel or demeaning to the academy ?
I notice in one of the front pages on BBC News 24 The Papers tonight, although it was not discussed, said Starmer was facing a rebellion on the Brexit Deal vote.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/28/starmer-high-profile-labour-rebellion-brexit-deal-vote
“Those who signed the Labour statement urging Starmer not to support the deal come from across the political spectrum, including the former shadow chancellor McDonnell and Ben Bradshaw, a former cabinet minister who is a staunch supporter of Starmer.
“This deal is a substantial downgrade of the UK’s relationship with the EU,” the statement warns, “and is designed to open the door to rampant economic deregulation – a loss of rights and protections for workers, the environment, food standards and many other areas of life.””
It’s a pretty solid tell that the intentions of others is not for the best, when they try to tell you black is white. All I’ve been doing is trying to make direct access to the academy available to those who would probably not otherwise come into contact with this stuff.
Citizenship, National Identity and Political Education:
Some Disputable Questions
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/230908864.pdf
A family member in england today (yoon brother in law)) phoned me and said, we can sing auld lang syne next thu at midnight. But england and boris still owns our arse’s.(his idea of a joke). C’mon FFS i’m appealing to former no voters here, how much humiliation do we need?. Vote indy even for our self respect.
CameronB Brodie says:
28 December, 2020 at 11:59 pm
paul
Care to outline the parameters of your assessment, and perhaps provide some technical evidence that what I’m posting is either vague drivel or demeaning to the academy ?
While it is a strange demand, almost a fraudulent parody of voltaire, I will try:
The parameters of my assement are:
Can I understand it?
No.
Would it have any use if I took it on its own terms?
No.
Because it is just after dinner talk for those who choose not to think.
eg: considering ‘Othering’ ,which is a terrible worry, rather than mention ‘bombing’ which is a terrible end for its victims.
The academy is as frightened as the weakest in society, which is why they produce this drivel.
What you quoted is obviously an abstract, something that should take,in the social sciences, 1 or 2 clearly eaxpressed paragraphs.
I challenge any reader to precis that pile of shite you pushed out better than this
https://www.lyricsfreak.com/b/blue+mink/melting+pot_20826708.html
Abstaining would say “Do what you like, we don’t care, we’re leaving soon”, and any MP/MSP interviewed should stick to saying just that. Which is what they should have been saying for the past 4 years instead of undemocratically trying to prevent England from leaving the EU.
There really isn’t any point in arguing with those who are intent on denying the salience of your point-of-view (see British nationalism). Or those intent on excluding you from democratic participation (see British nationalism).
Models of Democracy and the Politics of Recognition
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230285569_7
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b007k154
Kinda sums it up.
If Labour, DUP, SNP, Lib Dems vote the thin gruel Brexit deal down – how many Tory ‘rebels’ would it take to vote with them and hand them the No Deal Brexit of their Tax Dodging dreams?
And since the tax laws have already been dealt with in the thin gruel deal – what other benefits would it have for them.
Disaster capitalism – crash the £, hedge against it.
What else?
It’s like the judgemont of solomon.
Except it’s between a distetressingly lifeliss politial marriage,and a lively population.
Every MSNP should be made aware that there is no immediate future for them.
Every WMSP should be should be reminded that while they get a lot of dough, they will be spat on in public.
Without a realistic plan for indepdence,they are gone.
dead.
Apart from the finacially seccure,that’ll prick up their ears
No campaigners, no results, old labour graveyard.
Our current national party has squandered chances and sold off assets.
The humiliation of the english court will not be easily won,but it’s one war worth winning.
Daisy Walker says:
29 December, 2020 at 12:54 am
If Labour, DUP, SNP, Lib Dems vote the thin gruel Brexit deal down – how many Tory ‘rebels’ would it take to vote with them and hand them the No Deal Brexit of their Tax Dodging dreams?
And since the tax laws have already been dealt with in the thin gruel deal – what other benefits would it have for them.
Disaster capitalism – crash the £, hedge against it.
What else?
It is an oligarchic coup, to escape (rather lily livered) EU prohibitions on tax dodging.
Were there the equivalent of the gilet jaunes taking to the streets against the EU ever?
No.
Years of austerity, and they gave us a cat to kick, just not the right cat.
But that’s football,petcare,nationalism and our way of life.
3 days left in 2020.
What else could possibly go wrong…
@ Tannadice Boy 7.22pm No I am merely pointing out as I posted , It is terrifying that some people on here are still unaware of what Stu’s post is about
I agree with everyone that has posted that when the vote is called let ALL SNP MP,S immediately stand up and SHOUT ” WE WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN THIS ABOMINATION OR INSULT TO THE SCOTTISH NATION ” Then Blackford calls a press conference and informs the press that they are NOT going to vote and are returning home to action the dissolution of the TOU
Well I can dream
Your links normally back up your argument. But this time, your links are backing up their argument as fact.
These same people were never awarded such a honour before – their posts were proof of their bias.
I agree with Nicola, if the party votes for the deal (as opposed to a no-deal) then it can and will be argued in future that the SNP agreed with the deal, even when it shows itself up to be really bad for us.
That’ll be the headlines ‘the SNP voted for this”.
They are there to represent us, the people of Scotland, and we do not agree to any kind of Brexit. We voted against it.
There is zero chance this Bill will not pass, because what Brexiteer MPs wanted was tax haven protection and it looks like they’ve got that.
Isabel, you do realise abstaining is an option in these things?
FFS
It’s funny, I watched an Al Jazeera piece on YouTube there about Scotland… the host and the guests all talked and agreed Scottish independence was now likely. On Twitter it’s the same, with all sorts of intellectuals talking about Scotland being alienated and the likely consequences. The whole world thinks we are on the brink of making a move.
But we aren’t going anywhere.
The world doesn’t understand what the SNP under Sturgeon represents. They’re as serious about independence as they were about stopping Brexit. Just last week at one of her briefings, Sturgeon said any deal was better than no deal and seemed to wish the PM luck… now they’re voting against the deal.
The whole thing is a scam, truth be told, like faith healing. We only see steely determination in Sturgeon when she’s doing stuff that’s really stupid.
I wish I was one of those dumb bastards that could cheer for this and convince myself there was possibly something in it for me. I doubt if I’ll ever vote again.
Well what depressing post and thread. I would like to see the SNP at the least abstain but prefer to see them leave Westminster as a protest and come home. The wheels are coming off the SNP wagon big time . The last four years have been based on not being dragged out of the EU against our will so has been a failure. The basing the party strategy on the cult of Nicola is also a failure as her reputation comes apart. I am still in the SNP thanks to a few sparks of hope with the SNP NEC vote and MS Spear getting the boot from my home constituency. I am sick and tired of listening to our highly paid MPs sneering at and obstructing those that are at least trying to work towards getting us out of the UK. I would suggest they take a long hard look at what happened to Labour in Scotland and reflect on the fact that they don’t have the safety net of a stoat coat and a seat in the Lords no matter how much some of them would like one. At the moment in looks like SNP 1 and ISP 2 in May for me but if there was a way in not voting SNP 1 without blowing both my feet off I would look at it. Nice to see the trolls are still with us. Bless.
I genuinely only see one way out of this disaster in the short to medium term and that’s the return of Alex to form a new mainstream party. That’s if he wants it, which is no guarantee. An Alex/wings party would be dynamite. His name would need to be cleared in the minds of the masses and Sturgeon would need to be fully exposed and subjected to criminal charges for that to happen. The SNP cannot be saved in my opinion as they are tainted. The rot runs too deep and the culture of coasting on minimal effort and reward for failure has taken hold within the party. The effort it would take to rid the SNP of all the Wokeists, Britnat Infiltrators and fu**wits wouldn’t be worth the time and effort and you could never really trust anyone left 100%. I think after the last 5 years the movement also needs a clean break and freshened up. I’d love to see JC take control of the SNP which is another option but there is real animosity for her by the rabid followers of the Cult of Nicola and I fear this could lead to constant infighting. Whatever happens this is now 5 years away as the current SNP will sweep the board and do nothing at the next election. Only following this final betrayal will people wake up, I expect around 2023.
Twathater at 713pm,
I totally agree. This ‘deal’ has NOTHING to do with Scotland. It is an imposed piece of colonial abuse by an ENGLISH Tory government.
But more to the point, if the SNP vote for it, they will be mocked, if they vote against it, they will be mocked. Do none of them have the political nous to see how it will play out??? Are the SNP and NS really so inept at political strategy?? The only legitimate course of action for the SNP, is to refuse to even participate, and by that I mean walking out of Westminster permanently (which they should have done a very long time ago).
I mean for heavens sake, if they will not make a stand when we are being forcibly removed from the EU against our wishes, then when will they??
It is time for the SNP seat-warmers in Westminster to either put up or shut up. It’s not just the Tories that are sick of their whining, I am too. For goodness sake do something, instead of pathetically moaning over and over and over again.
In fact if they vote for or against the deal, I will mock them too – and they’ll deserve it.
Meanwhile, in other news, N.Ireland is getting to stay in the customs union, the single market, Erasmus, and Dublin will pay for their reciprocal healthcare in the EU – oh, and let’s not forget, everybody born in N.Ireland is fully entitled to an IRISH EU passport too.
Scotland is getting NOTHING. Do something Nicola, for goodness sake, do something!
@ David Holden,
Exactly where I am,my main issue at the moment is the lack of drive from the Scottish government in all aspects of our lives.No vitality and no spark not helped of course by Sturgeons complete clusterfuck in the Salmond affair and the appointing of diddy after diddy to her “cabinet”.Thoroughly depressing stuff.
Has anybody else noticed that the Sun newspaper is becoming ever more hostile to the SNP?
Today there is a story about NHS failings, which is being heavily spun as the party and in particular Sturgeon’s fault.
One to keep an eye on as the Sun tries to track the average voter’s perceived mood.
Just a job for 80 percent of Scottish msps and MPs and that’s every party, Holyrood and Westminster are only talking shops, none of them will stand up for Scotland’s right to be heard in the world, salary, pension that’s all their worried about, a few years back there was real passion in the SNP for independence, the only passion now is money how much can I make in money and pension for nae doing nothing.
In the past, when contributors to Wings have advocated the SNP’s complete withdrawal from Westminster, I have argued, since that is the centre of real political power, in spite of the ridiculous odds against them, the SNP had to hang in there.
I have always, however, believed, if they did so, they had to wage a non-stop guerilla war on the place – use Erskine May, their procedural bible for all it was worth and do their level best to gum up the works.
Sadly, they have never done this since the young Alex Salmond interrupted the Chancellor’s budget speech all those years ago.
There is also the wide misconception of how EVEL works. EVEL only comes into play at the Committee Stage, so, the SNP should, at that point be insisting, with Barnett Consequentials – any Bill perceived to be “English Only,” also affects Scotland – so the Scottish Grand Committee shoudl convene to consider the ramifications towards Scotland.
That would further gum-up proceedings, it would not half upset the English and if that sort of pressure was maintained – pretty soon the English public would be asking why are we continuing to pander to the Scots.
But, that chance was lost and I feel too-many of the SNP bench-warmers are now too comfortable in that place.
So, time to have a serious word with Sinn Fein, to discover how they worked the Westminster system to suit themselves, without taking their seats, and withdraw to Edinburgh.
AT the same time the SNP should be pushing at the Scotland Act at every turn, and there is surely now a case for setting-up an alternative Scottish parliament – just to see what London would do about it.
WE have to do something, before, as they surely will, the Tories shut down Holyrood. The problem is, there does not seem to be the stomach for this fight within the SNP – they are now too-comfortable looking after the interests of the party’s troughers.
Let’s make 2021 the year we finally get out of this damned Union. I for one have had enough.
Furthermore – as I have written on here before – it is time the Scottish Government reminded Elizabeth, Queen of Scots – she is Queen of Scots, not Queen of Scotland, she reigns by the approval of the Sovereign People of Scotland – who are not happy at the way they are being mistrated and ignored by her English subjects.
Get her telt, you have the power, supposedly – do something, or, put a Bill before Holyrood, suggesting that since the Queen of Scots had failed to protect Scotland from the effects of the EU Withdrawal Bill, and had allowed Scotland to be dragged out of Europe against her stated will – then the said Queen of Scots should be driven from office and replaced.
Now, that would be fun.
John SM
The vote at Westminster has two possible outcomes. Just two.
Either the U.K. will leave with a deal or it will leave on WTO terms. The Brexit campaign is not being Re run, there are no other choices.
In those circumstances, I would have thought that any, and every, MP should vote for one of those two outcomes for the benefit o their constituents and the country.
Maybe, the test of an action solely based upon “principles”, might be “what would happen if everyone took the same principled stance … and abstained”?
In this case the result would be the very outcome that most people want the least.
David Holden @6:11 am
“I would suggest they take a long hard look at what happened to Labour in Scotland and reflect on the fact that they don’t have the safety net of a stoat coat and a seat in the Lord’s no matter how much some of them would like one”.
Great comment.
Out of interest, and to help me judge what is current, has support for Wings increased or decreased over the last six months.
Support for Independence has risen by around 10% during that time and I wonder if support for Wings is similar
Barrheadboy has a short roundup on AUOB’s online meeting about Plan B, https://www.barrheadboy.com/plan-b/
Iain Lawson is saying the same, https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2020/12/29/and-so-the-day-dawns/
It’s a gamble but if we really want independence then it does not matter if it does not succeed. The worst that can happen is that the stables get a good scrub down.
@Sensibledave, 8:45am.
Hey Sensibledave, it was you and your Tory mates that shat the bed, don’t expect the rest of us to lie in it.
John Sm. @8:21pm
That’s the problem with not wanting to frighten the horses – gradual action is indistinguishable from inaction.
Here we are staring in the face of economic catastrophe. There’s not going to be some Armageddon on Jan 1st. however it took decades for businesses to climb the hill of trust and build relationships with partners on the European mainland and now they have to start all over. Except this time it’s worse. Faced with a supplier in Slovakia and one in Scotland any business will chose the one inside the EU as it’s easier and so cheaper.
With support for independence higher than support for the SNP just maybe all the horses are standing around thinking WTF is the government up to.
gullaneno4
Support for independence hasn’t risen by 10% over the last 6 months. It would have done if Sturgeon was doing her job properly and carrying out the mandate she was given by the people of this country.
Do you know how many members the SNP have lost this year now people see Sturgeon for the fraud she is?
“Support for Independence has risen by around 10% during that time”
Compared to to the 45% or 1.6 million who voted YES in 2014 there are now 58% of electorate or 2.2 million ready to vote YES now.
That’s 600k Scots who may not be traditionally SNP voters.
I think this partly explains the change in direction of the SNP to a party of sensible governance, putting a public health pandemic before the push for Independence no matter what no matter how.
Crucially this 600k wield far more influence than the long term SNP voters – whose vote is already in the bag.
“Do you know how many members the SNP have lost this year now people see Sturgeon for the fraud she is?”
Opinion polls show consistent 55% plus for YES.
This has soared during the pandemic and could be construed as an approval of Sturgeons “safe pair of hands approach”.
I am not sure of any relevance of SNP party membership or how many members or not a party has. The electorate in Scotland is 4.2 million and the SNP has 110k members? so 1 in 40 have logged onto a website and paid £3.
Hardly a lifetime commitment.
Papko says
“This has soared during the pandemic and could be construed as an approval of Sturgeons “safe pair of hands approach”
I doubt those hands seem so safe if you are standing in court facing 15 years on made up charges or you are a bunny in her kitchen.
I wrote a comment several threads back based on the Tories ability to interfere with Postal votes.
Here that threat has been realised.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18973501.electoral-commission-warn-oliver-mundell-msp-postal-vote-fishing/
What does Mundell want with Postal votes, and what would he have done with the personal data inside.
“The only thing the SNP can do that isn’t dependent on someone else’s co-operation is to conduct a general election on a one-line manifesto of a plebiscite. And if you’ve just HAD the election and you DIDN’T do that, you’re really struggling to find any other meaningful action that’s available to you until the next election comes along.”
Of course, cynics like me would suggest that, this is the strategy of Sturgeon & Murrell all along; bullshit the electorate, win the 2021 Holyrood election & coast along for another five years, collecting lots of cash, pocketing juicy expenses, padding out pension plans & prosecuting people in their homes for thought crimes while opening the door for bearded types to loiter in the ladies toilets.
That my friends, about sums up this administration’s ambition for Scotland.
Here the head of the Centre for European Policy Studies, in discussion with a former UK Home office special advisor, make the absurd claim that if Scotland has a second indyref the whole of the UK must be given a vote.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18973497.european-policy-centre-head-claims-scottish-indyref-vote-must-involve-uk/
The choice is between a legalistic, constitutionalist party headed by a lawyer or something else.
The first has been tried and is the boring option, the second, in the wrong hands, could become as tedious as the first.
This is not a peculiarly Scottish quandary. Independence movements inevitably divide between dull gradualist and fiery activist strands. If they cannot live together they must live apart.
Under Johnson post Brexit UK will be jingoistically nationalist, there is no doubt of that.
We need to be able to give as good as we get. No holes barred. No prisoners. Plenty of fire power.
Republicofscotland says:
29 December, 2020 at 10:31 am
Here the head of the Centre for European Policy Studies, in discussion with a former UK Home office special advisor, make the absurd claim that if Scotland has a second indyref the whole of the UK must be given a vote.
If the English are asked to vote for English Independence simultaneously I wouldn’t mind that happening TBH
As everyone else needs to tighten their belts, the staging post in Scotland aka the Scotland Office sees their spending increase 73% to £8,535,000.
The UK government via its Fifth Column in Scotland, British Nationalist politicians have built up a huge war chest of taxpayers cash to spend on anti-independence messages, via their Union Unit and Union Taskforce.
The Scotland Office is nothing more than a British Nationalist propaganda unit paid for by taxpayers cash.
Some folk on here do not seem to understand the difference between support for independence and support for the SNP.
I have a few friends who support Independence but would not touch the SNP with a long barge pole.
I would think that would be the case with many of the new 600k supporters.
Many finally given up hope on the dead ducks of Labour and Lib Dems.
“If the English are asked to vote for English Independence simultaneously I wouldn’t mind that happening TBH”
Holymacoses.
You just have to look at how easily the (majority) of the English were duped into voting to cut their own throats via Brexit, and the English ( Again a malority) also were duped into voting for Johnson giving him a huge eighty majority in the HoC.
They’d be easily duped again into voting to keep Scotland tied into this horrendous onesided union. No Scots voted for independence in 2014, it was non Scots votes who swayed it for the British Nationalist.
Let us decide our own future.
The so called pandemic has been weaponized to curb opposition.
https://reason.com/2020/12/14/a-new-warning-that-international-pandemic-responses-are-eroding-freedom/
Give politicians a millimetre and they’ll appropriate your civil rights.
https://www.ids.ac.uk/opinions/protests-in-a-time-of-corona/
Keeping themselves safe….
@ ‘gullaneno4 says:
29 December, 2020 at 8:57 am
Out of interest, and to help me judge what is current, has support for Wings increased or decreased over the last six months.
Support for Independence has risen by around 10% during that time and I wonder if support for Wings is similar’
Apples and Oranges spring to mind.
It’s possible the 10% increased opinion poll support for Indy is from a group of people who don’t do politics and wouldn’t read a political article if you held a gun to their head.
A different question might be, has there been any – plus or minus – change in accuracy with regards the facts the Rev presents in his articles – leaving aside that many Yessers find the message painful.
That was his overwhelming strength in the lead up to IndyRef1. It remains his strength now. Its a faint heart that shoots the messenger.
New Labour – New SNP – same tactics, same fools falling for it.
.
Stuart Mackay,
Thankyou.
As a rejoinder to our resident link-spreader, this is why I read all the BTL comments.
Unlike the poor guy who spams each thread with dense OFF-topic time-waisting drivel, sometimes a sane person will link to something that furthers the cause of Scottish Independence.
In case anyone missed the article by Barrhead Boy on PLAN B FOR INDY, here is Stuart MacKay’s very helpful contribution. A heads-up to…
https://www.barrheadboy.com/plan-b/
Earlier in this Wings Over Scotland thread about Sturgeon trolling many of us (ironically with many here having to wade through the 25% of BTL Spameron) someone mentioned how we need Alex Salmond to return.
Anyone, in fact I wager everyone who has watched Alex Salmond over the decades knows something stellar is on its way.
Barrhead Boy is flagging the imminent arrival of the announcement’s time and place.
I don’t know if Alex will return to the SNP. I hope he follows the plan Stuart Campbell came up with. The WoS mathematical and psephological thesis on how a SECOND INDY LIST PARTY would almost guarantee an Indy majority at Holyrood. Alex has the SNP in his DNA. Obviously he would not wish to harm the REAL SNP. The WoS plan is designed NOT to harm the SNP, but to elegantly replace Unionist MSPs with Indy LIST Party MSPs that (to paraphrase Alex) can hold the SNPs feet to the fire in calling IndyRef2 or even getting the Scottish Government behind the Keeting Case.
Watching Alex Salmond on RT television, he seems very happy and back to his old buoyant self after that 2 years of Hell Mr Murrell’s infamous WhatsApp comment admitted to.
I mention Alex Salmond’s demanour as it is almost as if he has made peace with something that troubles him (and many of us). Barrhead Boy’s coverage of the AOUB Plan B video conference spurred tantalising thoughts something politically interesting, this way comes.
My point?
I think Alex Salmond will give his evidence at the inquiry and as with all Wee Eck does, it shall have huge coverage. Amongst the tectonic fallout will be a big question mark above Nicola’s head. Her tractor habit of wasting mandates and never calling IndyRef2.
Nicola will then try and dodge giving any evidence to the inquiry. She is incredibly talented and good at what she does. She had almost all of us fooled. But just as Alex Salmond’s body language recently has been one of a man who is cheerfully following in the footsteps of Bonnie Dundee, the conterpoint is Nicola looks haunted. She is rattled, frustrated and panda-eyed. A sad post-spawning salmon-look of her former self. Like a pyramid scam merchant who has run out of Southsea bubbles to sell. Nicola Darien.
Aye, Stuart MacKay, you made my day with that useful link. You demonstrated why it is important (and respectful) to read through BTL as folk genuinely learn things here.
I can now go back to work knowing that in all this Covid shit and political cesspit of Sturgeon’s McWoke Brigade damaging the REAL SNP is reaching an end.
That Alex Salmond has likely chosen his public platform to either launch an IndyRef2 List Party, or rejoin the SNP and lead it out of the turgid torpor. Or maybe he will announce his retirement. God knows he deserves it for Alex has done more for Scotland that any other living human being.
My bet, and there is a real fiver here, is that Alex Salmond will honour his Bonnie Dundee promise.
Then it is GAME ON.
Many of us here are furious with the tractor Murrells. God help them. I’ve seen Alex Salmond when he gets angry. As most here can attest to, Alex is forensically thorough and eloquently eviscerates the guilty infractor.
Aye, 2020 has been one of the shittiest years in the living memory of most, notwithstanding the few of that great generation who can remember World War 2.
For sure 2021 will by crappy. But the Salmond evidence is about to come forth, like a cat out of the bag. I reckon we are in for some very good news.
“Out of interest, and to help me judge what is current, has support for Wings increased or decreased over the last six months.”
Wings traffic for December so far, with two and a half days to go, is roughly 34% higher than for the whole of June. October was our busiest month traffic-wise in the whole of 2019 and 2020. (We don’t have stats for November as our site hosts had a major hardware failure which meant figures weren’t recorded for 11 days of the month, but if you’d increased the numbers for the other 19 days by 50% to account for that, it would have narrowly beaten October.)
27 EU countries have approved the deal. Oops.
Ottomanboi
A discussion of this on LBC , A caller said it should be compulsory to have the Vaccine , I often wonder why it’s been changed from Compulsory to Mandatory they both have the same effect maybe because Mandatory sounds more appealing who knows .
Anyway the presenter gave a example 4 people in a car 3 vacationed 1 not Why should the Vaccinated ones have a problem with the one who hasn’t , Answer from the caller well they could be super spreaders , Correction by the Presenter everyone can spread it being Vaccinated does not build a protective wall around the one who has had the Jab , SILENCE
All sorts of bloody Loony tunes out there
Macron has proposed a registrar of those who refuse to be Vaccinated as a danger to public health , one of the things that emerged from the Nuremberg Trials was the ability of people to refuse any medical intervention without consent,
Coercion is not Consenting it’s our old friend Mandatory and it’s been the plan all along Compliance with the Government of the time your rights have become their gift to you and can be withdrawn
Just cos Alex Salmond changed his tune from singing Parish Cooncil to Scottish Parliament it didnae make it true.
Holyrood is a devolution parliament. A Westminster branch office.
It was a case of hoping that the people of Scotland can turn the dream into reality. Like people dreamed of space rockets going to space and one day it became real, graudally. That was then. This is now. The gradualists rule but the reality is that gradualism is dead.
We had Brexit. We had the Lords overrule the Continuity Bill. Now we have the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020 and UK Internal Market Act 2020.
The UK State has made it clear that the democratic will of the people of Scotland as represented by the Scottish Parliament will now be overruled and ignored. UK Ministers can even rule directly over the heads of Scotland’s democratically elected representatives.
Yet, the SNP politicians and wannabee ISP MSPs still look to devolution Holyrood as the answer.
We are told independence must come via democracy; I’ve no issues with that. But, these same people then say: It must be with UK approval. We can’t have single-issue elections.
The UK has made it clear. Scotland’s freedom will NEVER be approved willingly or by moral pressure. 2014 was a one-off. Its real purpose was to kill off Scottish independence forever.
The truth is: we can have a single issue election.
o
A plebiscite election: an election where the people of Scotland are offered the option to vote to end the Union, just like a referendum.
It can be done. There is nothing to stop us using elections to establish the will of the people is a sovereign Scotland.
But, it takes you, the people of Scotland to make it known you won’t vote for anything less. Plebiscite election or abstain.
Very well said Colin.
I agree abstaining is the best option, being that Scotland rejected brexit, the terms under which we’re being dragged out against our will should be a question we should not be willing to engage.
The fact however that SNP still has MPs in WM at this point is testimony to their failure.
As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink.
Bound by Recognition: The Politics of Identity After Hegel
https://philpapers.org/rec/MARBBR-3
“The concept of “recognition” lies at the intersection between contemporary identity politics and the philosophy of Hegel. While Hegel’s philosophy is often invoked to provide normative grounding for political projects devoted to overcoming misrecognition, Hegel’s analysis of recognition actually supports an immanent critique of such politics.
It provides us with diagnostic tools that show how the pursuit of recognition, especially in the context of modern, state-centered politics, works both for and against the values of agency and plurality it is supposed to serve. I develop this argument through readings of Hegel’s Phenomenology and Philosophy of Right; Sophocles’ Antigone; the history Jewish emancipation in nineteenth-century Prussia; and contemporary theorists of multiculturalism, including Charles Taylor and Will Kymlicka. ;In chapter one, establishing connections between Taylor’s work on Herder and language and his work on multiculturalism, I show that demands for recognition have a self-obscuring character: recognition constructs identities by seeming only to cognize them.
To understand the temptations and risks of political strategies that constitutively involve misunderstanding our own activity in this way, chapters two and three turn to important recognition scenes in Sophocles’ Antigone and Hegel’s Phenomenology. Read through the lens of tragedy, Hegel illuminates how the pursuit of recognition, blind to its own participation in the workings of power through which identities are constructed, enacts new forms of subjection in the name of an attractive yet impossible vision of masterful agency.
Chapters four and five show that, pace the later Hegel, the mediating institution of the modern state cannot salvage the ideal of recognition, because the state itself participates in struggles for recognition, demanding confirmation of its sovereignty. I trace the consequences of the state’s involvement in the politics of recognition through the case of Jewish emancipation, and by analyzing contemporary debates over the supposedly divisive effects of multiculturalism as struggles for recognition in which the sovereign imperatives of multicultural states help generate essentialist articulations of identity, foreclosing democratic agency.
The conclusion suggests modes of political practice and institution that might enable us to loosen our tenacious attachment to recognition, thereby negotiating its double binds more gracefully.”
That doesn’t mean I’m going to give up trying to support Scotland’s democracy.
Uncertain Dignity: Judging Human Dignity As a Constitutional Value
https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/68176/1/Soroko_Leah_201411_PhD_thesis.pdf
Hearing lots about Tommy Sheppard’s secret meeting with Labour hierarchy. There is a rumour, apparently from his office that he wants to wants to defect after being kicked out of the NEC for trying to oust Ash Denham and being rejected as Deputy Leader and Commons leader. Apparently big fallout in his office just now with his staff arguing bitterly with each other. Danny Aston his CoS has apparently been briefing against the party again to the Unionist press.
Why no follow-up comments to this?
Any links for corroboration, Scott?