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Accuracy, by Duncan

Posted on May 06, 2017 by

When our dear old pal the Scottish Labour super-goon Duncan Hothersall tweeted this earlier today, we just couldn’t resist a wee fact-check. We love to see people take the moral high ground, but numbers are fluid these days and you can’t be too careful.

So exactly how “accurate” are we talking here?

To get us started here’s the chart with the SNP, Green and Lib Dem bars (and no, we don’t know why they’re different widths) all stacked on top of each other to make a total of 20,569 votes – 1,276 more than Labour, yet still some distance shorter. Hmm.

This is the SNP bar extended in proportion (116%) to pip Labour with 19,321 votes:

And here it is with a tower of EIGHT Green bars (totalling 16,720 votes) stacked up alongside the 8,626 votes of the Tories:

Below you can see two Tory bars and two Lib Dem bars – total 20,898 votes – which just about match the SNP’s 16,656 but are way short of Labour’s 19,293:

And finally, if you want the Green bar to be higher than Labour’s you’ll need to pile up TWENTY-TWO copies of it, which add up to 45,980 votes:

Welcome to Duncan, everyone!

But we thought we should probably check the leaflet’s claim on the more serious level too. There isn’t a perfect matchup between Westminster constituencies and council wards, but you can fudge a decent ballpark approximation. So we added up the votes from Thursday in the four council wards making up most of the Westminster seat.

The totals (first preferences), in handy Dunc-friendly bar-chart form, came out at:

Council voting patterns don’t mirror Westminster or Holyrood ones precisely. They’re all different sorts of elections with different quirks and strategies. But even allowing for that, it seems a pretty big stretch to look at those raw numbers and conclude that only Labour could possibly beat the SNP in the south of Edinburgh.

If there’s going to be a Unionist tactical vote it’s going to have a pretty big decision to make, and we don’t think we’d have Ian Murray as the favourite if we were betting on it, especially given how full of themselves the Tories are at the moment. There has to be a distinct possibility that his jacket (pictured below) is on a shoogly peg.

That could leave Labour without a single MP in Scotland for the first time in living memory. And we suspect that the attitude to arithmetic exposed in this post might go a long way to help to explain both Scottish Labour’s reaction to the election results of the past 10 years, and the predicament the party currently finds itself in.

At some point soon, Labour are going to belatedly realise that when you look around the room and can’t see the sucker, it’s you.

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  1. 06 05 17 18:56

    Accuracy, by Duncan | speymouth

136 to “Accuracy, by Duncan”

  1. Robert Peffers says:

    Is there anyone in the Labour in Scotland Party even remotely in the present World with the rest of Scotland?

    I’ve never heard such wishful thinking since before the kids in my family got old enough to stop believing in Santa Claus.

  2. Croompenstein says:

    That could leave Labour without a single MP in Scotland for the first time in living memory

    Stu are you forgetting our big tuba playing tub thumper Blair is standing 🙂

  3. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    “At some point soon, Labour are going to belatedly realise that when you look around the room and can’t see the sucker, it’s you.”

    How right that is. But they don’t seem to be getting it, even now. Neither canvassers at the door, nor leader Kezia. Labour are bleeding their Unionist base to UKIP-Tory, and have no answer to it, it seems, except to repeat the same clapped-out old mantras.

    It is the very definition of insanity to expect that repeating the same thing will somehow produce a different result. And Labour do seem to be suffering from a kind of collective denial of reality. People metaphorically re-arranging the chairs on the decks of the Brexittanic, institutionally blind to the fact that they are shortly going to drown if they don’t get into that indy lifeboat soon.

  4. Walter Scott says:

    Last year, a political reporter from the Guardian did a piece on Scottish labour. Meeting members in local labour clubs mostly in the west of Scotland. He found very sparsely attended meetings, no one wanting to chair meetings or put their names forward for treasurer etc. He also noted that none of those attending were under 70! Labour can tweet all they like about how they’re somehow winning by making weird claims but it just makes party aparatchiks look like figures of fun. Thank god , because there’s not much else to laugh at.

  5. Davy says:

    Duncan doesn’t tell the truth ! Duncan spins the truth.

    PS. Is their any comment about labours election position after Thursday on the labourhame site, or is it still hush hush over there.

  6. Irvine says:

    It beggars belief that Labour voters appear perfectly happy to vote Tory and endure another 4 years or more of this cruel and incompetent Tory government.

  7. Macart says:

    The meeja and assorted Yoon parties grasp of numbers and graphics is creative to be sure. 😀

  8. HandandShrimp says:

    I feel sad that a party I used to vote for can’t see they have been utterly shafted by the Tories for the last 4 years. You need a long spoon to sup with the Devil and they didn’t even bring any cutlery to the meal.

  9. Black Joan says:

    Fascinating. Who knew?

    Think you mean two Lib Dem bars in your fourth picture, not Green?

  10. Richardinho says:

    With that jacket I assumed he was planning to stand for the ‘Ruth-Davidson’ party?

  11. Richardinho says:

    You have to laugh at Dunc all the same. It speaks volumes for the state of the Labour party that the only people with any energy in are desperate for attention trolls.

  12. Jimmuckmc says:

    Too busy standing shoulder to shoulder with their pals the tories , to notice that they’ve been shafted

  13. Robert Louis says:

    The last lines are the point. Since joining forces with the Tories during the independence referendum, Labour seen genuinely too dumb to realise just how effectively the Tories are playing them. So Labour continues bashing the SNP, shouting the same slogans as Ruth Davidson, ‘No more referendums’, and so on.

    The Tories must be literally laughing their socks off. Labour are promoting Tory policies, whilst destroying their very own voter base.

    But you know what is important in all of this, the fact that Labour STILL can’t see what is being done to them. Soon they may have NO MP’s at all in Scotland, and I do not doubt the day after the result, they will be on TV telling us all how bad the SNP is, and how awful a referendum on independence would be.

    Labour are unfathomably dim. Literally, they are doing the political equivalent of fagging for posh public school boy Tories, and seemingly enjoying every minute.

  14. Iain says:

    Reality, and real life.
    A concept that Labour struggles to grasp.
    How low can they go before they realise that independence is the only road they can follow.
    Kezia is gone after the general election.

  15. yesindyref2 says:

    I used to call the Scottish Conservatives – Conservaties, as opposed to the Westminster lot as Tories. From me a term of disgust (apart from a few good decent MPs).

    But I now call them the same – Tories (or Gories as I mis-typed it), and it’s funny to see the Rev does the same in the graphics. But correct! They’re just Tories like their boss at Westminster, with Davidson being the ventriloquist’s dummy: “I goo av ngy goch kellj ge goo goo”.

  16. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Think you mean two Lib Dem bars in your fourth picture, not Green?”


  17. geeo says:


    Kezia is gone…trouble is, her replacement will be absolutely no different.

  18. Tinto Chiel says:

    “It beggars belief that Labour voters appear perfectly happy to vote Tory and endure another 4 years or more of this cruel and incompetent Tory government.”

    Quite so, Irvine but then, in Larkhall they’ve just re-elected Jackie Burns, former depute leader of the South Lanarkshire Labour group, who had just been expelled from the party after having been found guilty of breach of the peace. The sheriff had removed the sexually aggravated part of the original charge over alleged conduct on a bus towards a young couple when Mr Burns had been drinking.

    Previously, Mr Burns had been found guilty of urinating in public.

    Standing as an independent, he crept in behind the Tory and SNP candidates.

    Democracy’s a wonderful thing, but it does presuppose sentient beings, I think.

    As for Dunc: give up, son. The Rev’s got you covered.

  19. Robbo says:

    Does anyone like Kezias new coat?Looks like a hand me down, does it not? A trench coat that doesn’t go to near the ankles -it looks weird.

  20. Rongorongo says:

    Maybe it’s a 3D chart and Labour just happen to have less depth than the opposition. Some plausibility there.

  21. Richardinho says:

    Wonder how the guy wearing the pink blazer feels about the fact that he’s not the most ridiculously dressed person in the photo?

  22. Richardinho says:

    On a serious note: That graph showing the council votes in the equivalent parliamentary constituency which shows a massive Tory lead is interesting. Last time around a lot of Tories likely gave their vote to Labour but it seems less likely that they would do so now. Why, when they have a chance of winning themselves? I wonder if the Unionist vote could be split and the SNP sneak by?

  23. liz says:

    Re SLAB and oldies.

    At the polling station on Thursday, older lady came up very chatty was voting Labour and said to the Lab candidate that she’d just found out her grandson had joined the Greens.

    She was very cheerful but said she always thought he’d join Labour

  24. Cadogan Enright says:

    The massive scandal over BBC reporting of the local elections may be beginning to tell – the report on BBC National News today at 7pm could only have been described as ‘accurate’ or ‘neutral’

    This may be a first – I wonder was it a reaction to the tidal wave of anger and complaints over their behavior this last 48 hours?

    They even showed Nicola and the SNP first, and said they had won Glasgow, before wheeling on the 3 Unionist parties to blather.

    The fact that this even needs to be remarked upon is an indicator of how unusual a neutral, factual BBC report actually is . . . .

  25. Iain says:

    I suppose that if you want to be leader of the labour party you have to buy them a curry.
    It’s the price of success.
    In a limited sort of way.

  26. Graeme says:

    Poor Duncan he lives in the same world as the rest of the UK Labour branch office in Scotland

    A world of distorted reality, a world of blind denial, a world where black is white and every colour in between is whatever they want it to be


  27. Stoker says:

    WOS archive links for November 2013 now over on O/T.

  28. Brian McHugh says:

    Brutal. 😀

  29. Clootie says:

    The Tory faithful have their tails up. The media has convinced them of World domination starting with the recovery of Scotland. The Tories will not be voting tactically at this election…it will be a full banzai charge at “the enemy”.

    Labour voters have a simple choice between a rabid right wing party and the SNP. A simple choice, in my view, the only choice open to a sane man. However their madness will overcome them once again and they will select anyone but the SNP.

    They will accept Foodbanks, more austerity, a privatised NHS, pension freeze….in fact anything before a SNP MP.

    Unfortunately I believe that this is a guaranteed Tory win. It will be delivered by those who put anger and hate above the quality of life afforded their fellow Scots.

    Murray is worse. He is putting his own security and lifestyle ahead of everyone.

    …one day the scales will lift from their eyes but I regret it will not be this GE.

    Having said all of that – work hard for a SNP win….you never know as the shock of Tory recovery may help penetrate the mind of a few Labour voters enough to get them to at least try and STOP the Tories by voting SNP.

  30. starlaw says:

    BBC will not change their ways. This bit of fair play is just to prove that they are neutral. Rancid reporters will be back tomorrow. BBC is now in a fight for survival in Scotland I personally will be glad to see the back off them.

  31. Capella says:

    The graphs are for illustrative purposes only. Like everything else Slab does and says.

  32. ScottishPsyche says:

    Where do they go from here?

    Dugdale drives the party to further destruction in June. Then what? A purge or split with Corbynites one way and the destructive Blairite dregs led by Sarwar in Scotland pursue the Union at any costs linking up with Woodcock, Austin et al if they retain their seats. Or do they just join the Tories and be done. Murray cannot survive without Tory votes and why would they vote for him when they see a chance for their own candidate.

    Just who do they represent in Scotland anymore? Surely their voters are fed up giving them another chance?

  33. winifred mccartney says:

    Poor Kez still the tories little red helper – only labour can keep the tories out???????

  34. Alistair White says:

    Begs the question soon to be asked and maybe answered. If your last chart is accurate and the Greens plan to stand a candidate then they need to get serious here and realise if we (Scotland) are to finally get across the line and vanquish Tories 4eva then they (Greens) need to stand down in a variety of seats and encourage their supporters, for the time being, to back the SNP.

    Back us (IndyScot) or sack us, the only way we’re gonna win this is to match polarisation of Unionists with a pro-Indy collective.

    I hope the SNP hierarchy are at least trying to negotiate some kind of working arrangement in this respect.

  35. Tom says:

    It beggars belief that so called Labour Socialists changed their alliance to Tory and feel okay about it, their ancestors will be turning in their graves. It’s like a 1930s Jew voting for the Nazi party. I bet they are mostly still paying “dig” money to their mammy and getting their life organised for them, rather than take control of their own future by making their own decisions.
    This United Kingdom is well and truly fucked up (pardon my lack of education).
    I feel that if it going to get fucked up then I would rather have done it myself and take the consequences and work out how to rectify it, than let some upper class twat make the decisions for me because the resultant fuck up does not affect them whatsoever.

  36. Iain says:

    I suppose that the people of Scotland have moved on from Labour.
    The real decision is, do you want to be under imperial rule or do you to be free to make decisions that affect your own life

  37. arthur thomson says:

    Slab votes for the Tories in the local elections highlight the truth about Labour. They do not care about the vulnerable, the poor or even the working class. They were always in it for themselves.

    Labour and the liar’s party have worked hand in hand with the Tories to promote their policy of deliberate impoverishment. Corbyn has been fully complicit while wringing his hands and talking platitudes.

    For the benefit of everyone we need to make it abundantly clear that May is WORSE THAN THATCHER. I am aware that many Slab supporters were secret admirers of Thatcher so we will never stand up for the oppressed but there must be at least some of the last of their numbers who are decent people. They have to be given the chance to understand that it is a straight choice between the SNP and the Tories, between civilised centre left politics and uncivilised greed.

  38. AndyH says:

    Would a right of centre independence party split the Tory vote in Scotland?

    Answers on a postcard please.

  39. galamcennalath says:

    I never thought I’d see the day when Lab, LibDem, and Tories all became so interchangeable in Scotland,

    It probably began with New Labour behaving as Tory Lite. Then the LibCon coalition. Then the BetterTogether all for their Union love-in. Then the widespread campaigns of anti SNP tactical voting.

    Is it any surprise Unionist minded voters merrily swap allegiances between them?

    But it’s not quite like that, is it? It’s actually a sophisticated Tory plan to soak up all Unionist votes.

    The crazy thing is, Labour in North Britain still don’t see it.

  40. Iain says:

    I had a dream,
    Scotland was a free country within European community.
    England was a friendly foreign power
    When will we be a normal country.
    What’s the problem!

  41. Black Joan says:

    Come on SLAB. Wake up! Your former best pals in the Better Together gang have become NUKIP. You, SLAB, are now surplus to their requirements.

    NUKIP is promoting a policy of mass disenfranchisement. Vote for Theresa’s Tories and say goodbye to having a vote. They plan to take away our right to vote for OR AGAINST independence.

    Think about that, SLAB. Think what the Labour movement was supposed to stand for. Ask yourselves how it can ever be healthy to take away people’s right to a vote, even if some of those people have been conditioned by the MSM and the BBC to think that disenfranchisement is a good thing. Because Proud Scot But. Because cringe. Because bored now.

    Have another look at Kezia Dugdale’s speech attacking the R* clause in Holyrood, SLAB. And then have another look for your principles, wherever you mislaid them.

    The R* clause is one small part of NUKIP policy. It is the policy of cheeky Ruth Davidson’s “ascendant, triumphant”, hard-Brexiting, rebellious-Scots-crushing TORIES. If that is what they do with a slender majority, just think what they will do with the predicted “landslide”.

    It’s up to you, SLAB. You are staring annihilation in the face. Stop clowns like Hothersall messing around with his crayons and dodgy graphs. Stop saying SNP-Bad at every opportunity and recognise the huge, really bad Tory monster which is about to break out of its cage.

  42. Clydebuilt says:

    Hardly ever see an SNP representative taking on Media lies. I reckon they are not well informed… Should spend more time checking out pro Indy sites ….. WoS, Towards Indy Ref 2, Talking Up Scotland etc.

    The SNP should see to it that people put forward for interview are up on current Unionist media attack lines / lies…. That would be a job for one person. The cause is just etc. ….. The ducking and diving aint!

  43. Hoss Mackintosh says:

    “Stu are you forgetting our big tuba playing tub thumper Blair is standing ?”

    He is standing in another naturally Tory seat of East Ren.

    Quite funny that both Labour favourite seats now depend on tactical voting from the Tories.
    Why vote for Red Tories when you can have the real ones.


  44. HandandShrimp says:

    The message we need to get across for the 8th is that the SNP can block the Tories in every constituency in Scotland.

    It is time for Labour voters to back a party that can win.

  45. Rock says:

    arthur thomson,

    “For the benefit of everyone we need to make it abundantly clear that May is WORSE THAN THATCHER.”

    Completely true but unfortunately, many pro-independence posters here are extremely naive and think the likes of May are fools and idiots:

    “Not only is May herself an idiot she has surrounded herself with them and they are calling the shots. Calling them wrongly of course as like Harrison they too are delusional. Idiots.”

    As I had pointed out:

    “They are neither fools nor idiots. They are some of the nastiest people around.

    Calling the likes of May fools and idiots is extremely naive.

    You have no idea who we are dealing with.”

  46. yesindyref2 says:

    OT – defence but relevant to iScotland in other ways.

    So with the UK ordering 138 F-35Bs over time, and Italy apaprently about half. And the UK being a “Tier 1” partner meaning the UK has shared the development costs, and Italy not, it’s Italy has the first F-35B rolling off the production line outside the UK right now, and no plans to make them in the UK. Engines will be sent to Turkey for maintenance, and basically it looks like the UK has been shafted by the US.

    The UK’s Typhoons get the hulls from Italy, but at least are finished off near Preston, I saw one on one trip on the M6 overtaking a load of lorries but that’s a lie. It was fast cars. Having trouble taking off wing commander? Anyway.

    The sheer lack of negotiating skills in the UK is appalling, and can you imagine what Brexit will be like? Oh, I think we already know.

    Where Independent Scotland comes in is that we need NOW to be training negotiators, have a negotiating academy, perhaps even an Honours degree for it.

    And I suggest we kidnap some Italians to get it going, before we leave the EU and their movements are restricted.

  47. yesindyref2 says:

    *sugar, that should be US, not UK, as in “outside the US right now,”

  48. Orri says:

    At a brief glance the true origin of the bars is just under the numbers telling you how big they should be. Being kind there may have been a previous incarnation of it with them on top of the bars rather than bellow which for sake of clarity morphed into one with a line round them which was accidentally removed. But more probably it’s an unsubtle attempt at employing a classic con involving not clearly indicating when a graph doesn’t start at zero.

    For bonus points they’ve also made the Labour bar wider than the rest which even if they had drawn the bars with the proper heights you’d be fooled by comparing the areas. Normally that kind of deception involves things like bags of money or other graphics.

  49. scottieDog says:

    The neoliberals within labour will be hoping to get a drubbing I reckon. That gives them a better mandate to get rid of Corbyn and get back to business as usual.
    The party will be dragged rightwards again and the establishment media will no doubt cut the party some slack.

  50. Craig Murray says:

    Here is an interesting question. At what point do the Scottish trades unions fully bite the bullet that people like Hothersall are a total waste of their money, and finally unplug the life support?

  51. yesindyref2 says:

    @Craig Murray
    Pass. Been watching the STUC for years, and the unions are – in a difficult position.

    Interesting times.

  52. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Craig Murray & yesindyref2 –

    I hadn’t even thought of this before now.

    Someone actually ‘pays’ Hothersall?


  53. schrodingers cat says:

    HandandShrimp says:
    6 May, 2017 at 8:54 pm

    The message we need to get across for the 8th is that the SNP can block the Tories in every constituency in Scotland.

    I wish that were true but it looks like the libs and tories are doing some of their own tactical pact, same as the greens stepping aside in the borders.

    why would rennie announce for the highlands unless he were sure the libdems would win NEF and e dumbartonshire?

  54. Tam the Bam. says:

    Craig Murray … 10.00pm

    Not sure I can answer your question re Hothersall but further to your Ferguslie Park article are you aware many are now saying the Tory candidate McIntyre may well have been elected as the result of mistaken identity.Apparently there was a popular Community Worker standing as an Independent of the same name.Oops!

  55. heedtracker says:

    Dunc’s probably holding the red tory line in his Scotland region until June 9 and poor old JC retires, back to the back benches again.

    Poor old JC. Beeb gimps in their Scotland region are savages towards anything remotely indy but they really have successfully annihilated old Jezza. Its been an extraordinary triumph of tory corruption right at the heart of UK news media. Its well up there with their terrifying destruction of the Scottish referendum 2014. So now Ruth D and her charming delights of toryboyness are really just a side show tory BBC guerilla war on Scottish democracy.

    All day today, BBC r4 has been one endless party political broadcast on behalf of Dr Nuttall’s UKIPer freak show, for example.

    The English right are certainly on the march, fcuk knows where to though, right over the Great British Empire 2.0 abyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyys.

  56. schrodingers cat says:

    slab have taken a battering and are unlikely to rally, people in the old labour heartlands switching to tory will only increase the likelyhood of the snp retaining their seats.

    this election is about the old libdem and tory heartlands where the snp are weaker, if they agree a pact, we will lose 15 seats

  57. ian murray says:

    From an economic position it seems clear that Scotland will thrive by being independant in the Eu
    The UK has some horrible decisions in their recent history and not likely to get better if they are on WWTO tarrifs, in fact the opposite is true
    The Scottish labour party could start fresh in a free Scotland and do very well, they may even pick up some quality current SNP ers because politics will have a fresh start.
    Why wouldn’t Labour do some advanced planning and see where they could be a force again in Scottish Politics by starting with a clean slate?
    I wish they would take the chance to get out of the death spiral to step onto the escalator that is there

  58. Another Union Dividend says:

    If the Greens do the decent thing and do not put up a trojan horse candidate in Ed South then Jim Eadie who was a very decent MSP can win Edinburgh South but only if SNP activists put in the effort throughout the constituency. Let’s do it!

  59. schrodingers cat says:

    ian murray

    the hierarchy in slab is carefully chosen. they will go down with the ship.

  60. Betty Boop says:

    @ Cadogan Enright, 7:22pm

    The massive scandal over BBC reporting of the local elections may be beginning to tell – the report on BBC National News today at 7pm could only have been described as ‘accurate’ or ‘neutral’

    This must have been remarked upon all across the land. Jings, it might even make the national news around the globe! I know I was gobsmacked when I heard it. I waited at the end for the SNP Baaaaad bit!

    Probably back to business as usual tomorrow…

  61. schrodingers cat says:

    should read 5 not 15

  62. Robert Peffers says:

    @Clydebuilt says: 6 May, 2017 at 8:37 pm:

    “Hardly ever see an SNP representative taking on Media lies. I reckon they are not well informed… Should spend more time checking out pro Indy sites ….. WoS, Towards Indy Ref 2, Talking Up Scotland etc.”

    Well, Clydebuilt, I’m perhaps not a very perceptive person, or perhaps I’m just plain thick, but I’m under the impression that whatever the strategy the SNP, party or government, are doing the people who vote for them seem to generally think they are doing it right. Why else would they vote for them?

    I seem to also remember that one of the World’s acknowledged greatest political strategists, a certain Napoleon Bonaparte, is reputed to have said, “Never interrupt your opponent when he is making an error.”

    So, far as I can see, whatever the SNP present strategy is the results shown for the Local Council Elections seems to me to prove they are doing something right. Then, the first craftsman I had as an apprentice, way back in the early 1950s, told me something while we were working on a top secret weapons system electronics circuit. “Noo Laddie, dinna ye try tae sort sumthin whit isna broken”.

    His wise advice has stood me in very good stead for a long, long time.

    Seems to me it could well prove counter productive to attempt to change, what seems to be a working strategy, that is getting quite good results.

    I look at it this way – the voters seem to be fairly good at detecting the lies being told to them all by themselves. So it might just be that finding out the Yoons were liars by themselves could by far more effective at converting former voters who were not actually out and out unionist, blood & soil nationalist Yoons, like for example the OO, is more likely to make a bigger impression than lowering ourselves to a slanging match like in a stairheed rammy.

  63. Capella says:

    To answer Craig’s question – my guess is on the 9th June. With a Tory triumph in England (though I do hope that can somehow be averted) then there will no longer be any hope of sustaining SLab. The gloves will come off and the “left” will desperately fight itself.

  64. dakk says:

    Never in the history of mankind have so many bar charts been prepared by one political nonentity in promotion of another political nonentity.

    I take it Dunky loves Ian.

    Not only is Murray’s jacket offensive.Leaning his domineering shoulder on the lady’s shoulder is annoyingly? dismissive.

    It’s maybe just the mood I’m in.

  65. heedtracker says:

    Probably back to business as usual tomorrow…

    One thing about BBC Scotland attack propaganda is that most progressive lefties south of the border and beyond, just have no idea how corrupt BBC Scotland really is.

    So when they heard that the SNP had lost and the tories had won last week, south of the border, via beeb Scotland gimps, they were maybe rather taken aback to see that this had not actually happened.

    Scotland is still very much a greater English region to 50+ million UK citizens. So BBC Scotland think they can do and say whatever they like, hardly anyone knows about really.

    UKOK media wise, its not just BBC Scotland that are off the leash. Graun’s latest JK Trolling clickbait nonsense,

    JK Rowling’s ego akin to Kim Kardashian’s, says Joanna Trollope
    City of Friends author claims Harry Potter creator’s ‘insatiable desire’ to air opinions on Twitter is threat to literary industry.

    JK Trolling, “has also been a vocal supporter of the European Union, a critic of the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, and openly engaged in conversation with fans, including by sharing her own experiences of rejection to motivate aspiring writers, and once responding to a letter written to her by a mother who lost her daughter to cancer.”

    Why would tory UKOK Graun, one of the most visceral Scottish democracy opponents going, somehow forget to mention JK’s own visceral opposition to Scotland becoming a nation state?


  66. ian murray says:

    schrodingers cat says:

    the hierarchy in slab is carefully chosen. they will go down with the ship.

    This may be a bit naive but it is Party ahead of Country

  67. watchin' out for you says:


    Why are all your posts linked to Unionist politicians and Unionist newspapers???

    Are you a troll???

  68. Robert Peffers says:

    @ian murray says: 6 May, 2017 at 10:50 pm:

    ” … The Scottish labour party could start fresh in a free Scotland and do very well, they may even pick up some quality current SNP ers because politics will have a fresh start.”

    I was just thinking something along the same lines after I had a good laugh at a classic bit of BBC spin on their text news service.

    The BBC is spinning this classic:-

    “LABOUR: No tax rises for 95% of earners.

    But the top 5% of earners would pay more to fund public services.”

    Then the BBC spins the Tory retort:-

    “The Tories, who had also ruled out a rise in VAT, say There is a £45 billion black hole in Labour’s tax proposals.”

    So, after wiping the coffee off the computer screen, and getting my laughter under control, for I had the thought that the Tory run-up national debt was obviously not seen by the Tories as a even bigger black hole in the Tory tax promises.

    What else can you do but laugh at such total idiocy of the Yoons!

    I firmly expect the Labour Yoons to come back at the Tory Yoons with, “Our Black hole is smaller than your black hole.”

    These numpties just don’t understand irony.

  69. McDuff says:


    Quite agree.
    The SNP can be too passive and factually ill informed when being interviewed and need to adopt a more assertive attitude in its dealings with the MSM.
    We lost in `14 and at the moment its 50/50 for indy2 so complacency is our worst enemy.
    The meek don`t inherit the earth.

  70. heedtracker says:

    watchin’ out for you says:
    6 May, 2017 at 11:44 pm

    Why are all your posts linked to Unionist politicians and Unionist newspapers???

    Are you a troll???

    Yes, a very deep under cover troll, very.

  71. Croompenstein says:

    @watchin etc

    Why are all your posts linked to Unionist politicians and Unionist newspapers???

    Are you a troll???

    Watchin you are Willie Young and I claim my £5.. 😀

  72. Betty Boop says:

    @ Irvine, 06/05/17 6:30pm

    It beggars belief that Labour voters appear perfectly happy to vote Tory and endure another 4 years or more of this cruel and incompetent Tory government.

    That’s the point; they are perfectly happy to vote Tory. I spoke to an elderly couple who said they had always voted Labour, but, they vote Tory now. “I think Treeza is wonderful” opined one. Brexit is the best thing for the country because of “all these immigrants”. The other had no problem with the “R” clause and had his own solution for any woman who had found herself pregnant via such means; it didn’t involve support of any kind. They had some rather racist views to sit alongside the misogynistic attitude. Propaganda and othering has worked well for the Tories.

    They were quite pleased with what the Scottish Government provided for them, but, would give it no credit for such. They detested Nicola S because “she is just nasty”.

    I swear I had some rather nasty thoughts running around my mind after speaking to a couple who, given their age, have had the best of what was ever on offer from the establishment in this country to working class folk, have watched it swindled away via right wing ideology and don’t seem to care at all that the prospects for younger folk are fairly dire.

    Labour principles easily discarded for selfishness and self-interest. They stood with the Tories because, basically, they are Tories and unionists and see no point pretending to have socialist values any more.

    Such a depressing conversation with folk from an ex coal mining town.

  73. heedtracker says:

    Watchin you are Willie Young and I claim my £5..

    That’s another fiver on the £1,200,000,000 debt, catastrofuck of the UKOK year ACC Finance Convener Sir Wullie Young OBE, has bequeathed the council tax payers of Aberdeen.

    £1.2bn is so much money, Aberdeen is now owned by several City spiv nillionaire hedge funds, of whom Sir Wullie borrowed several hundred million off of, without telling anyone, especially his electorate. BBC Scotland gimps and co, never thought to ask him.

    Its so much money, its hard to know where its all gone, other than pised away on even grotesque white elephants or awful monuments to Catatastrofuck of the year Sir Wullie’s vast ego and complete lack of any sense of hubris whatsoever.

    Its such a huge debt, its now being used to bludgeon Aberdeen council tax payers into NO again. Same City spivs that Wullie sold Aberdeen to, now explain to us that Scotland becoming a nation state again, will in fact threaten the amazing and brilliant finance deals, catastrofuck of the year Wullie Young has done, with these exact same City slickers.

    Wonder where Sir Wullie got this cunning fiscal strategy/weaponised giant debt planning from, need anyone ask Gordo Broon?

  74. Dal Riata says:

    Dunc should now be pushing for Labour in Scotland to go a full 180 and back and support an independent Scotland.

    If Labour in Scotland don’t take on this, admittedly, big change? of heart, then, well, they’ll probably still exist, but it’ll be in last place, like the much-loved, but much-laughed at Monster Raving Loony Party. They’re half way there already, now being seen as a joke party.

    Also, if Dunc doesn’t succeed in his ‘mission’, and is quite content to let things fall-apart as they are, then there goes his dream of going from an MSP, to his Dream Factory job in the House of Commons as an MP, to finally attaining the Labour Holy Grail of the House of Lords.

    Tsk! Awww, poor Dunc…

  75. Dal Riata says:

    @Betty Boop at 12:30 am

    Good post there, Betty.

    Yup, there are people like that round my way too, and , no doubt, round every way in Scotland.

    It’s not a term I like to use normally, but in cases like these, the term ‘low-information’ voter(s) is pretty damn accurate.

    Their ‘information’ is attained from the likes of the BBC and Scottish and UK-wide press.

    It is deliberate lies and misinformation at the levels produced by these UKOK-ist media-trolls that leads to the thought patterns and behaviour of the people you were in conversation with.

    They’re being told what and how to think. They probably have no access to different ‘versions’ of the truth to contrast, compare, and make up their own minds, and if they did, so indoctrinated are they in what they already believe that it wouldn’t be accepted anyway.

    The Scottish and UK-wide media is the greatest threat to Scottish independence – a dangerous Hydra-headed beast, poisoning all who come within its reach. Cut off one of those monstrous unionist-propaganda heads and another one grows rapidly to replace it.

    By the way, the Hydra had poisonous breath and blood so virulent that even its scent was deadly… Yup, that just about sums up the unionist media in the, so-far, UK.

    To end, it’ll be the young of Scotland that eventually leads us into the promised land of Scottish independence. Let’s hope it’s sooner rather than later

  76. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Betty Boop @ 00:20,

    Yes, Brexit and the nasty xenophobic miasma around it has activated people who traditionally voted Labour but were anything but progressive. It’s become socially “acceptable” to be publicly nasty about generic categories of folk again. The last time this happened was when Enoch Powell was in his “rivers of blood” heyday. (I had such a dedicated Labourite neighbour at that time.) The OO people are just another chip off the same block.

    Given the longstanding political profile of the current SNP leadership, these people were never likely to be converts. They mask their real motives with euphemisms such as “Nicola is nasty” or “Nicola has gone too far”, etc., etc. The likes of the Daily Express indulge them daily with this kind of dog-whistle merde.

    (I have always wondered that one of the reasons SLab were so against indy was because they knew their followers well and feared a Scotland in which these people were freed from the “civilising influence” of their English comrades.)

    Unfortunately the SNP had some of these people too until the EURef – the xenophobic wing of the “Yes-Leavers”. They have been diverted by the UKGov’s anti-foreigner scapegoating, and mostly won’t come back with any trimming over the EU now. Maybe if they can be shown somehow that they’re being cynically “played”, but unfortunately that won’t likely happen until it’s all too late.

    For the UKGov, Brexit has become the equivalent of a war. Rally people to their flag, and dodge any inconvenient truths from your opponents as “enemy propaganda and bullying”. The more reality the EU reveals, the more the Mayhem Gang hope to recruit support from an anti-foreign backlash.

    The “last refuge of the scoundrel” and all that.

    On the upside, Brexit has also taken the scales off the eyes of a lot of good people who were former “no” voters, and as the consequences of its reality steadily begin to bite over the next months, and the true nature of the Brexiteers becomes ever more apparent, hopefully more such people will see the light and turn to indy. And be worthy converts.

    Not likely on the timescale though to remove this lunatic UKGov, but hopefully in time enough to get us out before the final smash.

  77. Croompenstein says:

    So strange we haven’t seen the wankbaggage of Dick MacKinnon on this thread.. calling Colin Ripley and Phil Robertson to stick up for the Tories..

  78. William Wallace says:

    @Ian 10:27pm

    Left a response on the other thread. Sorry aboot the delay 😉 This is why I am getting a forum the gither. Too much good info getting lost in the ether or archived. Even I struggle to keep up and I am reasonably informed.

    Can I kindly ask for a few volunteers to man the decks on an indy forum ? I’m an ideas man but I am utterly useless with the day to day practicalities.

    The Bloggers are doing a great job but, sometimes the wider discussion is being lost. Many of the finer points are oft lost with it.

  79. Graham says:

    @Craig Murray 10.00pm

    A very interesting problem not dissimilar from the one Scotland’s populace faces regarding their governance.

    The big unions are predominantly British (i.e. English) organisations, the numbers of members in Scotland are a small fraction of the whole and face an uphill struggle to break free from the clutches of the Red Tories.

    The RMT under the leadership of Bob Crow had the right idea, sadly Bob was a one-off.
    His passing was a great loss to the Trade Union movement and society as a whole.

    Here’s how its done, Scottish Trade Union activists in other unions please read and digest:

  80. Robert Peffers says:

    @heedtracker says: 6 May, 2017 at 11:34 pm:

    “Probably back to business as usual tomorrow…
    One thing about BBC Scotland attack propaganda is that most progressive lefties south of the border and beyond, just have no idea how corrupt BBC Scotland really is.”

    Strikes me, heedtracker, that the real problem is that far too many numptie, “NORTH of the border just have no idea how corrupt BBC Scotland really is.”

    Then there is another lot, NORTH of the border that support and encourage the BBC and they know exactly how corrupt and hostile to Scotland the BBC are.

  81. Nana says:

    Read this from moneyweek especially the part about devolution

    Third of people considering tactical voting at general election to block Tories’ hard Brexit

    Don’t be fooled by the local election results – the Tories still face an uphill battle

  82. Free Scotland says:

    Help! Can anyone record this from the iPlayer before the BBC removes it at 10.00 a.m.? It’s Sally Nugent telling us that the tories gained FIVE THOUSAND seats in the local elections.

    Exactly 2 minutes in from the start of the programme.

  83. Ken500 says:

    The electoral system has just been gerrymandered by Unionists parties in Scotland. Another corruption. Change to FPTP and the SNP woukd sweep the board. Instead of letting 3rd useless reject regurgitate in again and again. The Tories got their usual 1/5 vote share. 20%+ No breakthrough but it looks like Independence support is in the up, but it is on a 50% turnout. The young folk are coming through.

    Hope the LibDems remember they where ranked higher than Labour /Tories by SNP supporters. In any coalition deals. LibDem/SNP have co-operated on Councils. Once the Party of Home Rule.

    The electoral system should be changed back to FPTP. Another IndyRef coming soon. Straight fight. Tories against the SNP. The SNP will win.

    Teresa May, Corbyn, Farron, Lucas will muck up the UK economy. Not enough taxes are collected in England/Wales to pay for essential services. The debt is just increasing there. Something has to give. Scotland already gives more to the UK Treasury and gets higher Oil & Gas taxes etc. Damaging the industry. Brexit will further damage the UK economy, The Tories will negotiate a deal which costs more for less rights, Then try to claim it as a victory using Westminster controlled propaganda.

    Make Scotland a more prosperous, fairer, more equal happy country. Stop £20Billion a year going to Westminster. Stay in the EU. It costs nothing and brings benefits. Indepenence.

  84. Effijy says:

    The BBC have now reached the ultimate stage of broadcasting propaganda.

    Although many things can have grey areas and various issues can be interpreted in different ways, Arithmetic is an exact science.

    Anyone recall their teacher suggesting the 2+2= subject to boundary changes and if the Scottish National Party are involved -6.

    I, like many of you, have lodged many well proven and justified complaints about bias at the BBC, but all judges are jury members are very well paid BBC employees who will send you out a nice condescending letter to say that you are wrong! Full Stop!

    Some people have stopped paying the license fee because of this on-going persecution of Scots for Scotland, but the Beeb don’t even give us the dignity of declaring just how many people have done this, or how much revenue that they have lost. Again they are allowed to keep you in the dark about anything that suits them, and ultimately their Westminster manipulating masters.

    Even with the professional dossiers produced by Prof John Robertson, a leading authority on propaganda and how it
    is positioned and applied, the Beeb just say that he is wrong too and there is no evidence of their corruption.

    For quite some time, I have banged the drum to try and raise 100,000 signatures on a petition, any petition, I really don’t care who started it, or who manages it, just as long as it can be presented as true and accurate.

    The link below I know causes a stir with some, as this organisation was used for a corrupt purpose by a corrupt Gordon Brown, but that was another petition on another subject.

    This link below has 91,885 signatures on it, just 8,000 names away from being able to slap the BBC in the face with the FACT that 100,000 have declared them to be undeniably Biased against Scotland.

    I want to see our politicians hit Bird, Robertson, Dimbleby, etc, hit over the head with the fact that the people of Scotland have registered, in significant numbers,
    that we know their game, they are biased, they are corrupt, and they have No credibility here in Scotland.

    Sign it or let the Celebrity Paedophile Corporation continue to say that they have no idea about what you are talking about!

  85. Willie B says:

    Shroedingers cat, don’t worry about Ross Skye and Lochaber, it won’t be returned to Libdem, the crofter are happy with Ian Blackford, it is reckoned his majority will increase rather than decrease, even lot of English settlers are finding he is doing a great job for them regarding construe cry matters and many have left the Libdum membership and came over to the SNP, would worry about NE turning Tory, quite a few SNP councillors lost their places to Tories, hopefully Eilidh Whiteford and her other half signing up against the CFP will have won back a few voters

  86. galamcennalath says:

    There still seems to be no overall percentage figures for 1st preference votes available.

    The SNP are up 8.4% in Glasgow. Realistically they will have done less well in the Tory-rich (pun intended) areas. However, it would be good to know the Scotland wide figures.

  87. Robert Louis says:

    Effijy at 0843am,

    People on this site quite rightly get irked when you propose signing a petition on 38 degrees. This is for two main reasons. Firstly, their was a similar petition many, many years ago (I signed it), before wings started, on 38 degrees to address this matter regarding the BBC in Scotland. Despite garnering the requisite signatures, 38 degrees then point blank REFUSED to act, citing that they only dealt with uk wide issues or some such sh*te. That really happened.

    They then allowed themselves to have a petition wilfully misused by that old clown Gordon (britin, britin, britin) Broon, following the referendum in 2014.

    They have had two good chances and blew it BOTH times.

    You can sign as many petitions as you like on 38 degrees, but for Scotland and Scottish problems NOTHING will be done. Their are also questions over WHO controls the site and its data.

    Your enthusiasm on this matter is great, but it is wholly misplaced.

    You have now been informed of these problems with 38 degrees many times by myself and others here. The fact that you persist in pushing 38 degrees might make some here question your motives.

  88. Big Jock says:

    Ruth thinks she fighting for Scotland! It’s the polar opposite. She is fighting to put Scotland back in its box. She is fighting for England and Britain. The short sighted Yoons, the self harmers in Labour are following her to their doom.

  89. Brian McHugh says:

    Free Scotland, that is unbelievable, there were only about 2,500 being contested. You just know it is the drip drip of subliminal propaganda. You notice the mistakes always favour the establishment. They never flatter the SNP for example.

  90. Jim Thomson says:

    @Free Scotland 7:54

    Doing it right now.

    I use a program called Get_iPlayer that has a bit of a geeky interface but is very easy to use once you figure out the command line interface.

    Current version is 3.01, released yesterday as far as I can see.

    Full BBC Breakfast recording is over 4GB so not an easy post.

  91. Undeadshaun says:

    Article on links between trump bannon, farage, arron banks and cambridge analytica and how the company helped swing brexit.

    And worryingly may do same in june GE.

    They will probably be used in next indy ref as well.

  92. Brian Powell says:

    We need to be better on anti-propaganda than the Tories are on propaganda. Tories, along with the newspapers and BBC are trying to frame the agenda, so we should be aware. Our marches, street stalls etc do something to counter it but we need to get better informed on the tactics.…/…/war_peace/media/hpropaganda.html

    “Phil Zimbardo, an expert in mind control tactics, outlines in a paper twenty ways to resist unwanted social influence. We have listed three ways that are most relevant to defending against propaganda:

    1. Be aware of the general perspective that others use to frame the problem or issue at hand, because accepting their frame on their terms gives them a powerful advantage. For example, the reader of newspaper articles on Pakistan’s nuclear weapons must be aware that the author has inserted his understanding of situations that do not fall into the category of the article headline: whether this be in terms of Pakistan as a nation, Pakistan’s military, or the Pakistani culture. In fact, it is usually through this framing of the situation that the author can persuade the reader to think of the issue in a different light.

    2. Be sensitive to situational demands however trivial they may seem: group norms, group pressures, symbols of authority, slogans, and commitments. Don’t believe in simple solutions to complex personal, social, and political problems. As with the media coverage of Pakistan and France, it is usually much easier for the reader to let an article tell him what to believe, instead of using the article as merely a suggestion of what may be believed. Especially as the tactics grow more and more refined, more and more subtle, and more and more persuasive, we find that the minute we stop observing with a critical eye, we have already been persuaded. It is so often that we find ourselves overwhelmed by work that needs to be done. It is so often that we do not have time to sort through the information presented to us so that we may derive our own solution. And sadly, it is so often that we let ourselves fall prey to propaganda for we have grown too weary to defend ourselves.

    3. In the end, it must be remembered that it is not enough to dissent vocally — one must be willing to disobey, to defy, to challenge, and to suffer any ensuing consequences of these actions (Zimbardo 47). The goal and proactive nature of this paper fall under this category. We hope that through our case studies of Pakistan and France, we were able to educate the reader in such a way that he becomes less susceptible to propaganda and realizes that it is all around, not just limited to a collection of World War II posters.
    In a sense, the main theme of prevention is awareness; understand the situation and act accordingly. Only through this can one recognize persuasive tactics in propaganda and how they shape our beliefs.”

  93. Free Scotland says:

    @Jim Thomson 9:28

    Brilliant. When I saw it, I thought, that’s definitely a keeper, but I don’t have the equipment to do it.

    Many thanks.

  94. Undeadshaun says:

    Scl are the parent company of cambridge analytica

    They gained access to facebook

    Were involved in brexit referendum and will probably be involved in next GE and indy ref.
    They also have some dodgy links as this article details.

  95. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Effijy at 8.53 and others

    We have very professionally produced DVDs of “London Calling – How the BBC Stole the Referendum” which are invaluable to give out to switherers. We showed this in the local cinema and even the already committed were gobsmacked as it rolled out the facts. I know the account is available on YouTube but shown on a big screen or at a meeting it is much more effective.
    Happy to send copies to anyone at £2 each or 10 for £10 postage free from “YES Cowal” at Forward Shop,186 Argyll Street, Dunoon PA23 7HA

  96. Bob Mack says:

    I suppose the truth will out eventually. An interview with the Grand master of the Orange Lodge confirms that they supplied candidates for the local elections from their ranks to further their political ends.

    This was done openly and they supplied candidates for both labour and conservative. Anybody still believe kezia is just a naive little girl ?

    It seems we now have a probable reason why the SNP had been receiving malicious packages eh ?

    We now have to re brand the leaders of Labour and Conservative. They have instead promoted themselves to the rank of “Ayatollah”, leading a group of fanatics willingly.

    Whilst the rest of Scotland moves forward, these people are stuck in the glories of over 300 years ago have now gained a legitimate foothold in Scottish politics courtesy of Labour and conservative parties. Makes me sick.

    Torrance was not blessed with insight when he coined the phrase Ulsterisation. He had merely lifted it from the labour and nd tory election manifestos.

    I once said I would return to Labour after independence. I now formally and forever withdraw that promise. Nevery again.

    It is not that the Orange Lodge actually makes a great deal of difference in terms of their numbers of votes, but it is the fact that they represent everything that is retrograde and destructive to Liberty and choice in Scotland and elsewhere and are now viewed for political ends as being acceptable..

  97. Ken500 says:


    All the tax evading (foreign) £Billionaires wealth increases 15%

    BBC Parliamentary Channel

    EU Brexit

    Prof. Poiares Maduro – European University Institute.

    ‘Scotland and NI can stay. England/Wales can leave’.

  98. heedtracker says:

    What is amazing BBC attack propaganda wise is today, how come none of the Pacific Quay gimps are not howling for Kezia to quit? Its hard to imagine that lot wouldn’t be agitating like a Ligger Neil, for an SNP leader failing as badly as Kez, to go.

    Must be waiting for that London calling instruction.

  99. The Proctor Lewis says:

    Hi guys,
    Post haste.

    My eyes are just recovering from the hypnotic effect of watching the ballot papers flicking on the counting machines. What I picked up on was quite a lot of papers were endorsed Labour 1 Tory 2 or vice versa, now old and techie as I am but really WTF? What goes on in the minds of some folks, has Scotland become an insane asylum? And as for our own, Jesus wept, a cross ifor each SNP candidate is a spoiled paper you moronic imbeciles.

    Anyway the result was fantastic, Ruth stated publicly that this was a vote on a second referendum, by anyone’s reckoning they lost. Not that it makes any difference, they had their chance in the only arena that had the power to stop it, and they lost there too!

  100. Betty Boop says:

    @ Dave McEwan Hill, 9:51am

    Aye, Dave, some parts of the film drew some intakes of breath from folk attending the pre-views despite already knowing much of what went on during indyref.

    The problem is still the same though. How do we get those who are not already committed to even think about watching London Calling?

    I think I would aim it at younger folk as far as possible. They might even get their grannies to watch if they bribe them with a cup of tea and a movie, but, positions on indy are fairly well entrenched amongst the older age groups now.

  101. AndyH says:

    Now that a Yes alliance runs Glasgow council. What are they chances of banning these orange order marches?

    It’s long past time a stand was made against these Muppets.

  102. HandandShrimp says:

    I was amused to see on Stu’s Twitter that Malcolm Bruce has unfollowed the Yoon Deans (I still have no idea who this person is/was/might be) because of the increasing hubris over creating one Unionist party.

    The simple fact is that if you vote Tory simply because you think independence is a bad idea then you need to take stock. That is one policy that will inevitably be put to the people to choose in due course.

    The Tory policies on NHS privatisation, the environment, taxation, the disabled, the unemployed and families are abhorrent to almost all the other parties. If Deans wants a Unionist party in Scotland then it would have to unhitch itself from the Conservative Party and tack seriously towards the centre ground. Ruth Davidson, economically, is on the right wing of the Tory Party. Ruth is not someone I would want running Scotland’s NHS. Voting Tory is not a good idea.

    May is fighting the GE on one issue in England and avoiding people and debate. We must not allow Davidson to do the same.

  103. heedtracker says:

    Welsh Labour is now a thing. It is curious comparing The Guardian’s Severin Carrell’s ever more desperate SNP bad attack propaganda in Scotland and their Wales stuff, as they start to align themselves, just naturally probably.

  104. heedtracker says:

    Is there a Welsh Labour Duncan, waiting for greatness, look you.

    Lucky Wales.

  105. Capella says:

    @ Undeadshaun 9:46 – thanks for the link to that article on Cambridge Analytica. Why are the military involved in BREXIT and elections?

    SCL/Cambridge Analytica was not some startup created by a couple of guys with a Mac PowerBook. It’s effectively part of the British defence establishment.

  106. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    All the sensible folk of Glasgow have to do is send emails and letters to their new councillors asking for just that @AndyH says at 10:15 am.

    I mean in these times of Tory austerity surely any sane council would prioritise spending on local services rather than Orange Order Marches.

    Get writing Glasgow’s electorate 🙂

  107. Truth says:

    @ Tinto chiel

    I recall attending a hustings during the referendum campaign in a church in Hamilton.

    Jackie Burns was there and I got the impression his heart wasn’t in it. It was written all over his face that he knew the arguments for independence were sensible and incontestible, but there he sat backing the union.

    I came away feeling sorry for such a pathetic individual. Unable to follow his head (and heart?) but instead follow his tribal prejudice and the gravy train.

  108. CameronB Brodie says:

    The thing is, Dunc isn’t particularly clued-up. He might appreciate this for himself if he had any self-awareness. 😉

    With the election of Donald Trump, the latent threat of American authoritarianism—identified decades ago by German intellectuals—is on the verge of being realized

  109. Alba 46 says:

    The BBC is funded by the government of the day by tax payers paying the licence fee. This money is then allocated to the BBC.

    The blatant bias and misrepresentation of clear facts is a breach of the so called BBC charter. When complaints are made the BBC just shrug them off with utter contempt. When referred to OFCOM ( a supposedly independent organisation) they have as much teeth as a goldfish to rectify any serious complaints. After all they don’t want to upset their political masters.

    Because tax payers money is involved the Scottish Government should consider taking the news editors and news presenters to court for blatant lying and misrepresentation. These people are paid from the public purse and should therefor be accountable to the public ie the people who pay their wages.

    I know, I can hear it now, the freedom of the press/media etc etc. What they forget is that with this freedom comes responsibility and a duty to present facts NOT what their political masters want to project.

    The SNP to their credit have conducted their elections on a fair basis, in fact they have bent over backwards to be fair. Their opponents have exploited this as a sign of weakness.The SNP need to take the gloves off. Get into the gutter and start to fight more aggressively.

    When confronted with the truth (see NS putting Sky news in their place with a list of the facts) they simply have no argument. We need to be much more “in your face”, question every argument and and ensure we get our point across.

  110. gordoz says:

    Since the term is resurfacing via the Westminster cabal journos, can someone also more forcefully suggest Kezias ‘honeymoon’ is now over ? More accurate surely ?

    Labours ship is now dead in the water circling rudderless like the red tory Bizmark.
    Just waiting for Admiral Davidsons fleet to finish them off with a pommelling via Better together friendly fire !

    What a numpty leading brainless sheep ?

  111. Legerwood says:

    Bob Mack says:
    7 May, 2017 at 9:58 am
    “”I suppose the truth will out eventually. An interview with the Grand master of the Orange Lodge confirms that they supplied candidates for the local elections from their ranks to further their political ends””

    The Sunday Herald has a major article, and front page, today about the Orange Order and the candidates from the OO.

    The paper also has an article about Tory councillor/candidates whose views were not so much right on but more on the extreme right eg homophobic, anti-Muslim and anti-foreigner.

    Can’t link to them because they are behind the pay wall. Interesting that the paper, albeit after the election, has highlighted these connections. Useful info for the GE though.

  112. Another Union Dividend says:

    On Hothersall’s fake charts and Rev’s Edinburgh South analysis, the Tories are probably favourites to win back what was a strong Tory area for them some 30 years ago.

    However, Labour will be buoyed by fact that they won two council seats from SNP but also lost a seat to the SNP in another seat.

    According to a local insider, one SNP council loss was down to a shambolic campaign and a lazy sitting councillor who did no canvassing whatsoever.

    In the other council loss, for the record, the SNP were in second place with first preference votes and ahead of Dr Scott Arthur – just in case he starts claiming he knows how to beat the SNP, but Tory second preferences in the leafy suburbs went to the Red Tory.

    If Greens don’t contest South Edinburgh then former MSP Jim Eadie can beat Ian Murray and win for the SNP.

  113. Hamish100 says:

    Funky Hothersall is no very clever. He puts up a graph says it’s accurate and low and behold he is found to be wrong.
    Takes a special form of narcissism to do that.

    Re the O\Order and such groups. Are Councillors required to say they are members of a particular group such as the masons, Knights of St Columba, trades unions,might wing think tanks?

  114. heedtracker says:

    The SNP to their credit have conducted their elections on a fair basis, in fact they have bent over backwards to be fair. Their opponents have exploited this as a sign of weakness.The SNP need to take the gloves off. Get into the gutter and start to fight more aggressively.

    Thing is Alba 46, BBC is so tory, none of that would make any difference. BBC is a self preservation political kind of setup too. Its the largest broadcaster in the world by number of employees, it reaches near 100% of UK, its world wide, its even hard to know how many actually work at and for the BBC, its that big.

    Its an extremely upper middle class, white, media corp and they make a very good BBC living.

    So if SNP policy is, just let them get on with it, its probably the wisest route.

    When is the last time BBC Scotland liggers made any tv or radio worth watching or listening to?

  115. Fairliered says:

    The now SNP run Glasgow City Council is responsible for planning and setting business rates for Pacific Quay. Maybe they could review previous decisions made by the previous administration?

  116. Nana says:

    Re the oo elected to councils, this thread gives you an idea of who they are. Nasty backward people for nasty backward parties.

    In case you missed Michael Barnier’s addresss on post brexit citizen’s rights, here it is

  117. Robert Peffers says:

    @Effijy says: 7 May, 2017 at 8:43 am:

    ” … Anyone recall their teacher suggesting the 2+2= subject to boundary changes and if the Scottish National Party are involved -6.”

    Well, Effijy, after much extensive and exhaustive research by my friend, Wee Eck frae Kelty, who has finaly resolved the great many different theories attempting to show that the extensive unionist’s, more obvious erroneous arithmetical and mathematical errors, are due to one or other of the usual suspects owning a somewhat wonky Electronic Calculators.

    Wee Eck’s conclusions are clearly somewhat of a thunderbolt in the overall scheme of Westminster Establishment propaganda – are you ready for this startling revelation, Wingers?

    Perhaps it might be advisable to all sit down now :-

    The real truth is that the cause of the myriad of miscalculations is entirely due to a rogue, circa December 1981, BBC B Micro Computer.

    Not as so many Wingers have claimed a wonky pocket calculator once owned by such Yoons a Jackie Bailie and other notable error prone unionist party figures.

    As with all other anti-Scottish independence matters we finally can honestly lay the blame firmly at the door of BBC headquarters.

  118. Brian Powell says:

    On the Tories getting the Orange Order support there are a few things that are not in their favour in Scotland.

    The Scottish Government, most of Holyrood, the majority of the people in Scotland and the police are not on the side of the group and ideology the Tories promote.

    The Tories in Scotland cannot hide behind another name for their party as happened elsewhere, for example NI. They are identified as the ones promoting the OO ideology.

    The Offensive Behaviour Act is against them, though I can see more clearly why the Tories and the hard right Labour politicians wanted it scrapped. But it is there now and a basis for legal action.

  119. CameronB Brodie says:

    I wonder how Dunc feels about spending ‘Tory money’ now?

    Putting “acceptable” limits on depravity in the name of compromise and “reality” is how fascism eventually triumphs. Or so said Professor Yvonne De Carlo of ‘Miss Yvonne’s Academy for Wayward Hussies’ also known as ‘The Frankfurt School’ – a place of higher learning for pregnant, delinquent scholars.

  120. Tam the Bam. says:

    Sunday Politics

    BBC still pedalling the SNP -7 seats myth.

  121. Alba 46 says:

    Heedy at 10:58

    Agree with a lot of what you say. They are a vicious, corrupt and willing propaganda tool for the government. But the point of what I was trying to say was their weak point is that they survive on public funds. With public funds there are responsibilities. I believe that is what the Scottish government should focus on.

    I disagree with your comment that “So if SNP policy is, just let them get on with it, its probably the wisest route”. That is the easy way out. We must confront injustices where they occur, we can’t just roll over and accept because of who the BBC are.
    If Mandela had just accepted white rule because they were too big to fight SA we would still be an apartheid state.

  122. heedtracker says:

    If Mandela had just accepted white rule because they were too big to fight SA we would still be an apartheid state.”

    Very true Alba 46 but Scotland’s not apartheid South Africa.

    Watching BBC Sunday Politics Ligger Neil and Prof Curtice just there, they’re clipping along at a fair rate, BBC resident neutral haha Prof Curtice explaining to the Ligger, Scots ref extremely “disruptive” and SNP vote last week was “weak.”

    Easy as that, fast, low level basic BBC vote tory attack propaganda, no SNP comeback, no any lefty comeback, just two high paid tories thumping away at us, vote tory.

  123. HandandShrimp says:

    I will give Bill his due, on radio shortbread this morning he corrected Bob Worcestor who claimed that the SNP had 438 seats back in 2013 (Bob’s memory is not what it was and he was largely there to defend polls rather than analyse results) and Bill pointed out that the SNP had gained seats and that the 438 was a notional figure of questionable provenance.

    I think Prof Curtice has probably been the sanest voice on the results and polling so far. The rest seem to have got rather carried away with a wee Tory boy getting in on the last turn of the cards in Shettleston. We need to remember that Coburn was similarly elected on the last turn of the cards has ever since been a figure of fun and derision.

  124. Liz g says:

    Jockanesewindtalker @ 10.21 & Andy H @ 10.15

    I think banning any of these marches at this point in time would be exactly what the establishment would want to happen.
    Espically in Glasgow.
    It would be a HUGE mistake to go down that road.

    At a guess there will be trouble at the marches now,then the calls to banning them.
    SNP council’s dammed if they do and dammed if they don’t….well IMHO this is one the SNP will just have too take the flack for.

    These fools are drilling in preparation to be fighting a pretendy war,that was and is such an embarrassing thing for grownups to do….they have to kid on it’s Kultural.
    Do any of them really think that they are protecting any one from anything,by dressing up as (it has to be said) colourful soilders?
    And marching up and down the road to tunes that can only loosely be called music.
    It’s mair Disney than Dunkirk.
    And quite? the insult to the police and armed forces who actually do protect us.

    These people are and were fading away to a curiosity,they have just latched on to our referendum to try to stay relevant. They will be badly used by their own top ranks and the establishment,and we shouldn’t be buying what they are selling.
    If they are to cause trouble then it should be with each other,and anyone with property in their path should up their insurance.
    A very powerful group insurer’s who always act to prevent losses.

    I think it would be playing the establishment game to give the usefull idiots a cause (the right to march) to unite behind.

    Our job as I see it is to keep a lid on our own hot head’s and our eyes on the prize.
    Those marches will fade away eventually, espically when there’s no vested interest from Westminster to keep them going.

    And just as a wee aside (as if this post wisnay long enough)
    Has there ever been a musician or lyricist that has made it big,who came from a background in one of these bands.
    Or can we conclude that the ludge hisnay got talent.

  125. Orri says:

    It’s important to note what notional results aren’t. Firstly, notional results are NOT a prediction of what will happen at the next election. They are what the results would have been if the votes cast at the 2005 election were counted under the new electoral boundaries. Secondly, they are NOT a estimate of how people would have actually voted if the new boundaries had been used in 2005 – if the new boundaries had actually been in force, people who used their vote tactically may have chosen to vote differently. For example, some people who voted Lib Dem in a Conservative/Lib Dem marginal might have voted Labour instead had they been in a Conservative/Labour marginal. The notional results are based on how people actually voted in 2005, but divided up between the new boundaries – not how they would have voted had the new boundaries really been in use.

    Basically the use of “notional” results for a previous election the way the BBC is doing completely ignores the point that homogenous voting patterns don’t happen in real life and that even if they did that would mean moving one part of a constituency to another would have an immediate effect on the votes cast in both.

    Not only that but unless you have a record of every vote cast in a PR election then it’s hard to tell how adding or removing seats would affect the outcome. I’d certainly expect wards with more seats to attract a higher number of candidates and more wins by independents due to them needing fewer votes. Wards with fewer seats might result in some candidates elected due to passing the quota not doing so and in some rare cases not being elected at all.

    Basically if it turns out the BBC have used that site to generate predictions, or another with similar warnings, then they’re deliberately ignoring the warnings about how reliable they are.

  126. CameronB Broidie says:

    Alba 46
    I hear what you are saying but I also believe in picking winnable battles. I think it is possible to win independence, despite the BBC. I don’t think it possible for the BBC to change, even if it wanted to. Just look at the BBC’s public purposes, in their new royal charter, and you’ll see they have a public duty to promote Britain and an ‘inclusive British-ness’. Unfortunately, the underlying aim of inclusive education is in direct conflict with the objectives of promoting ‘national’ unity. The BBC can not be honest about Scotland and promote British unity at the same time. It is not possible to inform deceptively. Can’t be done. The two states of being (informed and deceived), can not share the same space in time, frankly. 🙂

  127. Jack Murphy says:

    Hi folks—this is for Newbies and Week-enders who may have missed out on this yesterday.
    The Glasgow Count on Friday,as filmed by the small hard working team at Independence Livestream.

    AFRICANS FOR INDEPENDENCE—-Graham Campbell,a newly elected SNP Councillor is filmed by Independence Livestream as he is interviewed by a journalist.

    Other Archived clips from the Count can be viewed by clicking on arrow on right of screen—-I just discovered this morning!

    Film a bit shaky at times—-but they are a dedicated hard-working wee group.

  128. Muscleguy says:

    Dunc clearly has numeric dyslexia. It explains this, it explains his data torturing blog, it explains his loss making business. Dunc thinks he understands numbers but he really, really doesn’t.

    It is clearly a cry for help from someone in clear need of an intervention. There must be some adult education remedial maths classes we can send Dunc to.

    The man is afflicted and mockery is inappropriate. He needs help and probably should be moved to sheltered accommodation and not allowed out or on the interwebnet without competent adult supervision at all times.

    Let us hope Duncan can find the help he needs.

  129. K1 says:

    Haven’t watched it all. Richard Walker with guests including Joan McAlpine discussing the election results in Scotland. Recorded on 5th May. About an hour long…see what ye’s think…will watch all of it later:

  130. Muscleguy says:

    Thanks for the link, I’ve watched it all the way through and it was very interesting.

  131. stu mac says:


    I was convinced that moves would be made against her as soon as the local election defeat was over but Lady May has given her a couple of months reprieve by calling a general election in June. Those who didn’t want to be tainted by leading the party to a local election defeat will now wait until after the inevitable General election defeat before ousting her.

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