And the colours came running
Don’t say we didn’t warn you about this.
Because we’ve been telling you it was coming for half a decade.
The Tories sent out a call, and they’ve had their response.
The list of illustrious and staunch contributors to Tory Hoose included figures like Tom Elliot (then leader of the Ulster Unionist Party), Alan Cochrane of the Daily Telegraph, Rob Murray of “Better Together” and a couple of politicians you may have heard of by the names of Murdo Fraser and Ruth Davidson.
So let’s not act all surprised, eh?
Would-be councillors, incidentally, are meant to disclose at the time of their candidacy any interests – financial or otherwise – “which members of the public might reasonably think could influence your actions, speeches or votes in the Council”.
This may be the reason Jim McHarg, the Grand Master of the Lodge, refused in the Sunday Herald piece to identify any of the Orangemen his organisations had just had elected. But then, we suspect most of the people who voted for them already knew.
Welcome back to the 1950s, Scotland. Enjoy the ride.
On the Tories getting the Orange Order support there are a few things that are not in their favour in Scotland.
The Scottish Government, most of Holyrood, the majority of the people in Scotland and the police are not on the side of the group and ideology the Tories promote.
The Tories in Scotland cannot hide behind another name for their party as happened elsewhere, for example NI. They are identified as the ones promoting the OO ideology.
The Offensive Behaviour Act is against them, though I can see more clearly why the Tories and the hard right Labour politicians wanted it scrapped. But it is there now and a basis for some legal actions.
We all knew it was coming but did the average voters know it when they numbered these sectarian candidates amongst their preferences
Did perchance these candidates make public their allegiances to such organisations as the OO in their literature before the election in which they stood as Independents making the promises that all candidates are required to make, if not and the public voted for such candidates unaware of these facts are these candidates then considered legitimate
I always understood disclosure of allegiances to be a fairly obvious rule am I wrong?
A wee reminder, Rob Shorthouse of Better Together…
“Rob made an excuse that it was a bad line and the noise from the Ibrox crowd made it difficult to talk … he would call back.”
http://newsnet.scot/archive/the-smear-and-fear-of-better-together/
All the sensible folk of Glasgow have to do is send emails and letters to their new councillors asking for a ban on OO Marches.
I mean in these times of Tory austerity surely any sane council would prioritise spending on local services rather than Orange Order Marches.
Get writing Glasgow’s electorate 🙂
What’s the difference between a flute and a dog whistle?
“Today being the 322nd anniversary of the Battle of the Boyne brings one to think of the Loyal Orange Institution of Scotland and its relationship with the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party.”
OO and Ruth D’s toryboy poshos all bettertogether might work UKOK wise but sunlight is a great disinfectant.
Council services in those wards should be interesting.
Y’know, all the Tory bumf stuck through my letterbox in recent weeks didn’t contain a single policy on local issues that I recall. Something I hope the folk remember come the next LA elections. Maybe look to vote for folk with local policies and local concerns is an idea.
Otherwise… see ATL.
They should get locked up for preaching religious hatred,once we get indy this group should be made illegal and their leaders arrested.
I see no difference between them and extreme Islamic groups both preach religious hatred and should be prosecuted accordingly.
An independent Scotland should have zero tolerance of religious hate preaching of any kind and class these groups as terrorist organisations which they are.
The politics and views of the OO are from the 1950s. They may chime with a certain segment of the population but they are either abhorrent or ridiculous to the rest. However, I would rather they are out in the open and in the Labour and Tory parties than hidden or in the SNP.
They are the problem of the Kezia and Ruth…this is good.
The Noisy Minority said “NO Surrender” to a 2nd Referendum. And they meant it.
Scratch the the Union Jack and its orange underneath. Scotland’s future is forward-looking, not backwards to 1690.
See what you’ve unleashed, Roofy-babes?
Three questions on the FOI request to a number of Councils:-
1) How many elected members are members of the Orange Order?
2) Of those who are, did all of them declare this on the documentation that was part of the process of them be eligible to stand as a candidate?
3) If not all of them did so, how many did not?
I’ve always thought it should be fairly easy to identify these morons given their love of marching around in public several times a year.
Arlene Foster, DUP leader in Northern Ireland, spoke at a unionist meeting in Glasgow recently. When over she also attended the Old Firm game where Rangers won by -4.
Does anyone know the where what who of her gig?
@Donald MacKenzie – 11:56am
Sounds like a good plan.
“Staunch contributors”
Tories, aye but Proddies all?
O_O supporters and fellow travellers?
Where is Carmichael and Murray?
Does Tomkins have the slightest clue who hiz bed fellows really are?
“Staunch contributors”
Tories, aye but Proddies all?
O_O supporters and fellow travellers?
Where is Carmichael and Murray?
Does Tomkins have the slightest clue who his ed fellows really are?
Murdo’s Queens eleven tweet suddenly assumes darker overtones than the careless remark of an idiot.
I should feel depressed that sectarianism is back on the agenda thanks to Ruth Davidson, but I’m strangely not. It’s like Scotland’s root canal work that needs to be addressed sooner or later.
I’m glad to see that the involvement of the OO is now fully out in the open, I’ve been banging this particular drum for a very long time. In the coming four and a bit weeks we must work our socks off to convince real traditional Labour voters that a vote for the SNP is now the only way to get the fair and socially just Scotland that they and their fore-fathers have sought for over 100 years.
Auld Rock
Shameful and disgusting.
Rangers fans singing F***k the SNP at Firhill just now.
Absolute disgrace but not surprising now we know the OO are getting involved in mainstream politics.
Thankfully not all Rangers fans share the views of the extremists amongst them.
Not into this ‘banning’ the bigots stuff at all.
I’ve no time for these chumps, but i’m defo of the school who advocate the ‘I may not agree with what you’re spouting, but will defend (not to the death, that’s going too far for this coward) your right to spout your pish’.
The OO are dying a natural death anyway, societal progression seeing to this, and I think the more sentient amongst them knows it.
Let’s call this ‘the dead sash bounce’.
Murdo Fraser and Adam Tomkins, pardon the pun, have been banging this particular drum, with RapeclauseRuth’s approval, for sometime.
If you’re bored, its interesting how a progressive liberal not a tory outfit like The Guardian, has grown to really love the OO. Cant think why.
From,
http://archive.is/Y2sLb
Northern Ireland The Observer
Satanic secrets of the Orange Order
Ex-loyalist insider Peter Malcomson claims witchcraft lies at the root of Unionist rituals, reports Henry McDonald
Northern Ireland: special report
Sunday 24 October 1999 01.14 BST
to
http://archive.is/6S0hH
Orange Order anti-independence march a ‘show of pro-union strength’
Parade of 15,000 unionists passes through Edinburgh without serious incident, hoping to make decisive contribution to next week’s referendum result
Libby and Sevie. Saturday 13 September 2014 15.31 BST
via,
http://archive.is/Vqg4e
Photographer Murdo MacLeod covers the pro-union parade in Scotland’s capital, where thousands have marched to show their support
Elena Goodinson
Saturday 13 September 2014 16.03 BST
Its an orange miracle Guardian conversion, to the orange side:D
Did Sevvie of the Graun partake of these OO ceremonial things? Riding a goat seems a bit cruel though, even for Graun liggers.
Blindfolding a new recruit and making him kneel on a mock coffin while vowing to destroy his own life if he divulges the teachings of the order;
Tying a rope around the neck of the recruit, who, as in Freemasonry, has most of his clothes and one shoe taken from him and has a purple ribbon fastened to his shirt;
Riding the goat – a ritual in which the blindfolded initiate is wrapped in a canvas sheet and then kicked and tossed about by the assembled members of the Order;
Beating the candidate across the legs with brambles and, in some cases, holly to the accompaniment of laughter and even goat-like bleatings.
I know several people who sympathise with the Orange Order.
Their thinking is muddled.
Something that they have in common is a respect for the armed forces and for the generation that fought World War II against the Nazi’s, Nazi racism and injustice.
What these Orange Order types simply cannot see is that an Orange Loyalist is simply a Nazi in an orange sash.
I’m guessing that the sacrifice of the previous generations in WWII was just a waste of time seeing as some of today’s generation have voted in Orange Nazi’s.
Not surprised to see serial front bottom Turdo on another list.
One of the Sarwar brothers was a real rangers man. Dunno about Anas.
http://www.athifsarwar.co.uk/biography/personal-life/rangers-fc/
Let us not forget the green Brits who despite their sympathies for ending British rule in Ireland, dance to a British tune where Scotland is concerned. They are represented in the board of Celtic FC. Thankfully they are in decline. There is no doubt that the unionists are employing the divide and rule tactic in Scotland, just as they have done in Ireland for centuries. It will ultimately fail.
This is what the Labour councils of both Edinburgh and Glasgow have been encouraging for several years. Orange Order Grand Master McHarg claims to have councillors or sympathisers in both unionist camps but he’s not sure who they are! Thankfully not enough to control a council.
lets have a ban on these sectarian marches as they now clearly pose a threat to democracy.
But perhaps we should rejoice their ascendance to, at least the 20th Century, if not yet the 21st, in coming out in such numbers for a Roman Catholic Tory PM. 🙂 Or maybe not
Couple of things to ruminate on.
1. How do the largely non sectarian tory voting populace of D &G view this development. Embarrassed or what?
2. For years the anti SNP stance from BBC PQ was put down to their strong personal and or career ties to the SLAB.
Their(directed?) support for Tories must be causing some discomfort? Whateffer they are above average intelligence and must at least be partially sentient? Now their support is being dragooned for O/O supplicants who don’t even know historical truths. MuSt be great looking in the mirror.
Come on now be a smarty lets go join the Fascist Party!
Make a Stash by wearing a Sash.
Orange is the new Black Art.
Progress through bigotry!
Hate thy Catholic Neighbour-and join the band who slabber!
Why trust in God Almighty when you live in 1690?
Be a Tangerine Tory and make up a subversive story!
Stand up front and spin a stick
be the National Front and look like a Pr*k.
If anyone in the OO No are reading this, these ideas are under copy right to prevent idiots getting ideas.
I’ve seen a lot of comments in the last couple of days saying Orangism is a relic of the past and that most normal people abhor it. That may be true of the middle-class Twitterati, but many working-class Scots in my experience either don’t seem to mind or actively support it.
The talk round the lunch table at my work on Friday was not about the council elections, it was about that night’s Orange walk through Wishaw. Two of my workmates were taking part in the walk, and most of the others were supportive (being Rangers fans of the WATP persuasion).
My previous two jobs, stretching back over 25 years, both also had active OO members and a great deal of anti-Catholic “banter” from the football fans, so it’s not hard for me to see why so many deprived, working-class areas returned Tory councillors last week.
The 1950s didn’t go away for the working-class, it’s just that the Tories have again persuaded them that defence of the Union is more important than social justice.
The Union now has to face up to what its core support is composed of.
Just as Tories are no longer toxic to some of those who should know better, be prepared for the Orange O are not so bad and they ‘do a lot for charity’ articles.
Wee Aidan K will be dusting down that half written dissertation on Ulsterisation and Torrance will be saying it was Alex Salmond that did it. We all knew they were just biding their time, will they play their hand too soon?
OK @defo says at 12:29 pm free speech and all that I agree with you on.
But the preaching of religious hatred I draw the line at (same with racists or homophobes).
Would you be happy if your council allowed a ‘send all the coloureds home’ march through the town at taxpayers expense based on the fact that the UK didn’t have as many 320 odd years ago?
As a council tax payer are you happy it is being spent to allow these OO marches to happen at the same time services are being cut due to funding shortfalls?
SCOTLANDS SHAME – every single scottish member of a hate filled organization of now legitimized ‘Knuckle dragging’ neanderthal men & women.
Disgusted wi’ Labour & Tory eejits, sorry just completely disgusted.
Apologies to all offended by Scotlands shameful O-O links.
Such folks are beyond help or any respectful discourse.
Eh? “Labour and the Conservatives” are not (yet) a single party. Neither Labour nor the Conservatives separately was the largest party in nine areas, nor is the total nine if the areas where one of them is the largest are added together. If that statement refers to councils where Lab+Con is the biggest group, there are more than nine.
I doubt if that really matters, but it is yet more evidence of rubbish reporting.
A seriously mistimed revelation and one that might precede a ramping up of the rhetoric of the SNP being a Catholic organisation whilst dropping the idea that Labour are. Presumably to encourage tactical voting in some areas by like minded bigots for Labour candidates.
Pushing Catholic voters away from Labour who might already be reluctant to vote Conservative due to the increasingly NI Unionist stance Davidson is taking kind of leaves the Lib Dems as the only party for them if they still have doubts about independence.
Meanwhile it’ll do nothing to attract Protestants, or those of other faiths, back to Labour from the SNP. In fact it might make them even more certain that independence is needed to escape that bigotry.
Tactically it’s a fairly major misstep.
As a councillor you have to declare financial an non financial
interests.
Ah, the OO scum,eh. Back to the 50’s with this mob? Well, here’s one from the 60s…
We were pretty poor then, back in the day. My mother worked as hard as she could to keep us fed and clothed, but life was a struggle for all of us.
At that time, a trip to Glasgow was like going to somewhere really exotic and one day mother announced she’d put enough together to take her and me ‘shopping’ in Glasgow in two weeks time. Well, those were two weeks of sleepless excitement, I can tell you!
Anyway, the big day arrived, and it was like birthday and Xmas rolled into? one so palpable was the excitement.
So then. Got to Glasgow… to find the pavements jam packed, mostly with men, and most of them boozing or already drunk.
Unbeknownst to mother, she had chosen the very day of the biggest Orange Order march of the year in Glasgow.
But for a wee yin like myself it was still exciting, you know.
The place we wanted to go was right across the street.
Just as the marchers were in sight, my mother made the fatal mistake of getting herself and me through a gap, and before I knew it, we were half way across the street..
The OO had minders who lead from the front and sides. Suddenly there was a roar of anger directed at us. One of the minders came right up to my mother and me and said something I’ve remembered word for word since that fateful day:
“Get yersel’ an’ tha’ fuckin’ wean aff the fuckin’ street, ya dirty fuckin’ Fenian whore ye!!”
My mother’s face went white as she hurriedly dragged me off the street and across, where loads of pished men repeated what the OO man had said, except with even more hatred on their faces and spit coming out their mouths.
We kept walking with my mother unusually silent.
After about five minutes, we found an unoccupied seat… where my mother sat down and cried her heart out. I’d never seen my mother cry before. She kept saying, “I’m sorry! I’m sorry!” All I could say was, “It’s ok, mum…” I didn’t know what else to say. I was seven years old.
That was our big day out to Glasgow over and done with and we went home. I didn’t mind, I just wanted to see my mother stop crying.
Mother never once talked about that awful, awful day, but I know she blamed herself to the end – wrongly – for exposing me to such anger and hatred, the bitter, bitter hatred…
So, excuse me if I am very, very bitter to say the least, about those who pledge their troth to the OO, and say: Fuck yez! Every last one of yez! to that mob.
May Scotland one day be rid of this cancer that blights its society…
The OO would tell you they are a Christian organisation, they’re not
The OO would also tell you all are welcome to join, they’re not
The OO celebrate killing folk under the guise of defending something they say they believe in, well no one ever designated them a legal army of any country sanctioned by any government yet they are legally allowed to celebrate by marching a faux army through our towns and villages by consent of the Councils but no one ever asked the people to vote on that permission to have their lives disrupted, the traffic diverted or indeed the noise outside their kitchen windows let alone celebrating something which a great deal of the population obviously don’t like
So why do we have it imposed upon us (the ones who don’t like it) My understanding of the argument is that freedom of expression is involved, but if that’s so then why were difficulties and barriers being placed in the way of the Yes movement to conduct their events in the same way
The OO claim to represent Queen and country, that is to say the British Queen and country who is seen as the defender of their faith, but of course as the Queen is an Anglican which is closer to Catholicism than the preferred beliefs of the OO how can this be true
And given that then the OO can only be an Anti Roman Catholic organisation at any cost
And if that’s true then they are indeed every bit as nasty than any other hate organisation, and if we don’t allow hate speech in our country why do we allow this
There can only be one answer, that the British government don’t ban them because it serves them to keep Scotland divided along any lines they can in order to control Scotland and now we see from Ruth Davidson and chums this is how they’re prepared to use it
The question for civilised folk in Scotland of any religion is are we going to allow them to get away with it
Exclusion of any kind is divisive and nasty, Scotland is becoming a better country since the SNP took office because they are an inclusive party, these dinosaurs from the crusades lurching around the world beating folks up because they’re different should be a thing not to be celebrated but vilified by us all
I fervently hope all faiths beliefs and none unite to drive this bitterness from our Scottish society and I will make a start by bringing this to the attention of my party the SNP the best way I can
Maybe if we all do the same we can get Scotland talking about this instead of just accepting it exists
Apologies for the length of this post
So will it mean that they want closer links to the Dutch royal family and are they pro eu, or just mad leavers wanting to go back to a three day week with power cuts when life was good what will happen after a hard brexit will the oo in NI look on a united Ireland if there business interests are hit, might take the loss income to get them to change.
There must still be many decent Labour and tory voters around. Surely some of them must be disgusted to be associated with these people. Maybe this is the push they need to start moving towards our side.
For all those who still don’t, “get it”, I’ll reiterate a short reminder.
When the Romans arrived in South Britain the great heroine of the South Britons was Queen Boudicca:
Note that the English historian claims Boudicca, was queen of “Eastern England”. There was no England when Boudicca was the sovereign ruler of south East Britain.
However, my point is that from the time of recorded British History there was the concept of Divine Right of Kings – i.e. “sovereignty”. Boudicca’s husband was the king and the Romans always used the existing rulers of those they invaded to rule for Rome and so it was with Boudicca’s husband. However, when he died the Romans are said to have flogged Boudicca and raped her two daughters. Boudicca revolted and that is her claim to fame.
In due course, after several hundred years, the Romans left Britain because the troops were needed to hold onto more important parts of the Roman Empire. The south Britons had no longer experience of defence as the Centurions had filled that roll for centuries and they invited Germanic Tribes to come and defend them with promises of free land.
They came and took over. Although there was changes between the several factions of Germanic Tribes including the Vikings, Norsemen and, Normans, (a corruption of Norsemen), they were all from Germanic Areas, (Not modern Germany).
The point being that these various factions were all led by Kings or Queens and the rule of law was Divine Right of Kings, i.e. “Sovereignty”. The Present British Royals are NOT Winsor they are Germanic, “Saxe-Coburg-Gotha”.
An unbroken line of Germanic sovereigns in England since before Roman times. Note that there are still Hereditary Peers sitting in the House of Lords today.
English law is based upon the monarch being the sovereign head of State and only from 1688 were the Royals legally forced to delegate their sovereignty to the Parliament of England, (the three country Kingdom).
Not so Scotland. Scotland certainly had Norman rulers, both Bruce and Wallace were Norman Knights. However, in Scotland the Normans were assimilated by intermarriage with existing Scottish royals but royal sovereignty ended in 1320 by the Declaration of Arbroath and Bruce was declared King of Scots – not King of Scotland.
Under Scottish Law there is no longer Divine Right of Kings. That is made clear in the Treaty of Union and is being ignored by the Westminster Establishment.
It is also what is behind the Loyal Orange Order and their No Surrender. The plain fact is that the beliefs of both the Westminster Unionist and the Loyal Orange Order are identical in that they refuse to surrender to the fact that the Glorious Revolution of the English Parliament of 1688 and The Treaty of Union were Kingdom of England only matters. Scotland legally remained independent until 1707 and the Treaty of Union does not transfer the Scottish people’s legal sovereignty to the Westminster Parliament.
Yet we have had several wingers attempting to claim we should keep religion out of politics. The truth is that the entire politics of this damned union is 100% about religion to the point that the Treaty of Union that spawned the Union is all about barring Roman Catholics from ever having anything to do with being legally sovereign under the law.
In other words we cannot get religion out of politics until we get out of the union politics.
Blind intolerance and unwavering belief. Dynamite combination.
All around some folk there’s crippling poverty, wealth disparity, desperation and suffering. Benefits slashed to the bone as central government deserts the poor and the working classes in pursuit of protecting the few. The same government and system which mishandles its own economy in favour of those few. Rights are abused and removed at a whim people are treated as electoral coin or collateral damage to be manipulated by turn.
The answer to all of this public abuse by some? Well, if you listen to the crowd at today’s Partick – Rangers game it’s (****) the SNP.
The irony of course, is that the very system these angry folk support, that demands their vote and their loyalty, will also happily exploit them and abandon them in a heartbeat to suit the agenda of the day. Indeed many of these folk, I’d assume, live in areas which have known their fair share of poverty and misery.
That’s the bottom line of democracy and choice though (if you take time to think about it and understand how fortunate you are). The system they support would remove that right to choose.
Will any Scottish so-called journalist dare to ask rape clause Ruth Davidson, ‘How many of your elected officials, MSP’s and councillors are members of the orange lodge’?
Fortunately despite all their silly drum banging and bigotry, they are a MINORITY in Scotland.
Ruth Davidson will regret the day she decided to involve these folk. Seriously dangerous people, make no mistake.
Apparently, Theresa May is a Catholic. Will the OO be demanding she stand down in favour of a Protestant?
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2017/03/10/theresa-may-is-britains-first-catholic-prime-minister-says-michael-gove/
orange order (diddy men) getting involved in Scottish politics through the tory and labour parties.
Should we be surprised?
No!
Should it be brought to the attention of the Scottish people?
Absolutely!
Having vacuous and moronic bigots support will back fire providing it is highlighted and pointed out to people!
Once in bed with the orange order the tories and labour will find it hard to hide or get rid of them.
Re tories and labour, the orange order are like pox, easy to catch, but extremely difficult to get rid of.
The orange order won’t give up new found respectability conferred upon it by tories and labour easily and they will expect a quid pro quo.
What is that quid pro quo?
Granting marches so they can spread their poisonous religious bile?
Repealing anti sectarian laws implemented by the Scottish Parliament?
This and other facets of what life will be like under tories post general election need to be brought to the Scottish public’s attention now!
This is the true face of unionism!
Be under no illusion there is no low the tories won’t stoop to or harmful policy they wouldn’t implement if they thought it was to their benefit or someone else’s disadvantage!
Scotland should say a united no surrender to bigotry in any form!
OO types will be die hard NOs come ScotRef. That will be an unchanging situation.
I assume people who take their Unionism so seriously will also tend to turn out to vote anyway. So again, becoming more prominent and involved probably won’t change the ScotRef situation adversely.
Councillors and local government can have no influence on ScotRef.
I may be wrong, but I don’t see much positive in this for their Union.
Conversely, a great many undecided middling folks are going to have their eyes opened to what the Union is really about!
On balance, I think extremists, bigots, xenophobes, far right etc etc all lining up beside the London Brexit Tories as the combined opposition to the social democratic pro independence lobby, probably couldn’t be better!
Bigots disgust me. However those who wish to take office in society by using this bigotry to gain ground disgust me a great deal more.
I expect an elected official to value ALL of those she/he represents. When you openly display support for an organisation who seek a tiered society, which is no different from Krystal Nacht, then they should be banned from office. In fact they should be shunned by society AND arrested for that behaviour when expressed in public.
If bias against ANY religion, racial background, etc is tolerated or promoted then where do you draw the line?
If you choose to live in Scotland then please support development of a FAIR society. Always remember that if discrimination against even a small group, never mind half the population, is tolerated then you may be next.
Right Wing Politics thrives on finding a scapegoat to blame. Jews in Germany, Anyone not British by UKIP and now Catholics by the Tories in Scotland.
This is what 300 years of the Union has gifted our Nation…..Division.
From your linked previous warning:
Doug Daniel says: 18 July, 2012 at 12:02 pm “I don’t know why we don’t just ban Orange marches.”
Fast forward to today and perhaps the SNP and Greens with control over GCC should do just that.
Just doing my outside the box consideration thingy here nothing to be alarmed about folks. 😉
According to the Code of Conduct for Councillors, Category Eight, councillors are required to register and describe membership of such groups as public bodies, companies, clubs, societies and organisations such as trades unions and voluntary organisations.
Thankfully that very nice Mr. McHarg has very kindly informed us that there are at least 6 councillors (including one Tory) who are Orange Order members. Not only that but I believe he has also told us where to start looking for his “mates” as well. North Ayrshire,East Ayrshire, North Lanarkshire and South Lanarkshire all have Orange Order members now as councillors apparently.
For starters we all know the Tory O.O. member will NOT have made any mention of being in the O.O. cause the only thing mentioned on his leaflets will have been
NO SURRENDERsorry NO second referendum. In this case at least shouldn’t he/she, when identified, be removed from office for failing to identify membership of an organisation as specified by councillor rules? No by-election would be required, in my view, just re do the count in his/her ward with his/her votes thrown out.As for the rest, thanks to Mr. McHarg, we know all the Labour councillors in the four councils mentioned should also be investigated and their leaflets. Again, if as I suspect they have operated like their brother/sister Tory and failed to mention their O.O. membership then out on their ears they go and a recount of their wards are carried out with their votes discarded.
Of course I know this will NOT happen but hey I can still think outside my wee box can’t I? 😉
Well said -Dal riata
Don’t apologise Dr. Jim
You see, we all have undercurrents of revulsion and want rid of this bigotry from the country, but feel we can’t speak the unspeakable.
Edmund Burke said, ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing.’
So it is up to all of us to fight this and creat the country we want to be.
The Ulsterisation of Scottish Politics is happening before our eyes and if N/ Ireland does re-unite, don’t be surprised if an awful lot of N. Irish Unionists come and live in the Ayrshire, Lanarkshire, Glasgow area.
tRuthless is playing with fire and in her arrogance, thinks she can control it/them.
Notice the creeping repetition of threats of ‘violence’ as a theme in general posts, intimidation and bullying tactics online. Things are changing ‘subtlely ‘( Nothing subtle about the OO) I don’t think any of us realise just how dirty this might become- I hope i’m wrong!
Good article in the Sunday herald today- Interview with the STUC gen Sec Grahame Smith.
He believes that a decisive Tory election win could lead to a ban on strikes and general attacks on worker’s rights.
Senior tories who served under Thatcher have said that Brexit is the golden opportunity to finish the work that Thatcher started.
I don’t doubt that and I think they will take the NHS out as well.
We have a big job ahead of us; lets hope this latest OO news is widely spread and some people question their ‘loyalties’ to Labour /Tory candidates before june 8th
Ruth davidson,kezia dugdale,willie rennie
you support these groups by being silent
you started this by siding with the tories
lets hear you condemn this right wing ultra
fascist group.
kez and willie you now have a choice to make
it is either independence or
living under a right wing tory fascist nazi party
supported by such groups as these.
the choice is yours and for gods sake lets hope
it is the right one for scotland and its free
thinking people .
The job now for all of us who find our Local Authorities have a Fascist, Racist, OO, Ex Kipper etc. representing us now need to ensure we get their views out in the mainstream.
Now these creatures have crawled out from under the rocks and out of the sewers into the light we need to ensure that the light stays on them.
And on the Politicians who believe these individuals are the acceptable face of their Union and that it’s the Union at all costs and no cost too great.
Maybe, just maybe, voters who paid more attention to the Party rather than the individual may realise who and what they’ve put into power.
Who knows if these abhorrent individuals continue to behave as they did before the Local Elections that may end up compromised and I’d fancy our chances at any By-elections.
OO you are awful. 🙂
Gala mac at 1.35
We must expose and emphasise the involvement of bigots in the pro union camp at every opportunity to embarrass any of those who still support the union for,shall we say,more sentimental reasons
Capella –
Do they discriminate between Roman Catholic and Anglo-catholic (with a small ‘c’) or is it just RC’s that they oppose?
TM is Church of England, ergo Anglo-‘catholic’, which is still the Protestant Faith.
All in favour of them being called out and ejected from any council where they have not disclosed their OO ‘membership’ before election.
@ Meg merrilees 1:53
For some of them just wearing something green or having a name like Delaney would do it!
It is a sick twisted perversion of religion on a par with IS….except they don’t have the power to enforce it…..yet
This article may just have been correctly predicting the local election results but the author hadn’t foreseen the late entry of the OO to the game.
Still it’s an interesting slant and one we should spread far and wide.
https://www.holyrood.com/articles/comment/ruth-davidson’s-star-beginning-fade
@ meg merrilees – No idea! just noticed that Gove is citing her “catholic” views:
Gove said May’s politics could be best understood by examining them through a Catholic prism, “particularly Catholic social thought. (whatever that means).
Dangerous to bring religion into political decision making IMO. The Tories are stoking up sectarian hate and that is unforgivable.
But when did they ever do anything else? Divide and rule is always their MO.
Nicola has called them out in the Sunday Herald.
” Sturgeon savages Tories as a threat to the very fabric of Scottish society”
I agree.
Speaking from a “notional” perspective is the O/O more representative than 2012, how about the lib dems ? greens?
Has the BBC loyalist television Scotland branch (notionally) undertaken similar research or just left it to a notionally impartial commentator or paper?
I think we should be told.
Sorry for O/T here but folks might like to know how the announcement on state pension age rise is coming along.
https://twitter.com/paullewismoney/status/857948817852952576
@Hamish100
Can’t say re OO, but I did recently see a report from John Curtices’ SSAS that CoS membership had declined from 36% in 2001 to 18% in 2013, which is rather startling.
Jockanese Wind Talker says:at 12:55 pm
“OK @defo says at 12:29 pm free speech and all that I agree with you on.”
“But the preaching of religious hatred I draw the line at (same with racists or homophobes).”
And it’s the “but” where I disagree. You either have freedom of speech & expression, or you don’t. No middle ground.
The knuckle draggers should be able to sing their bigoted, empty little hearts out at the footy too btw. Banning them is the top of the slippery slope into authoritarianism. Dissent, even the ugly sort, is good for a healthy democracy.
“Would you be happy if your council allowed a ‘send all the coloureds home’ march through the town at taxpayers expense based on the fact that the UK didn’t have as many 320 odd years ago?”
No, but i’d happily stand on the sidelines and rip the pish out of them.
“As a council tax payer are you happy it is being spent to allow these OO marches to happen at the same time services are being cut due to funding shortfalls?”
Same as above. Not happy, but we live in (an illusion of) a democracy. If the majority here supported Fascism (totally possible in the UK it seems), i’d be thinking of bailing out to Canada or suchlike.
Funding the policing of a couple of marches a year (note I said a couple) seems a fair price for defending freedom.
Westminster placemen are in all walks of Scottish life.
So, Ruthie and her pals played the sectarian card because they have nothing else to go on in their rabid extreme attempts to deny democracy in Scotland. Utterly disgusted. This sectarianism which seems to lurk under the surface, and raise it’s ugly head occassionally, has no place in Scotland in the 21st cenury.
Those promoting it, and stirring up hatred for their own gain, are absolute criminals. The oldest trick in the book, divide and rule, with tank commander Tory branch leader in Scotland, just shows where her interests are and it has nothing to do with the interests of Scotland. No thanks, we want a forward looking country ruth, not your backward, selfish, destructive country.
Take your hatred and stick it where the sun don’t shine pet. Leave those who have real policies, and who have Scotland’s best interests for all who choose to live here, to get on with their jobs.
London is nice, I hear.
What the fuck is this sectarian nonsense still going on for in 21st century Scotland? What relevance does the 322nd anniversary for some battle or other have to the 2017 council elections? How can we stop our children being brought up with the chain of this shite still wrapped firmly around their necks dragging them down?
Nicola has called them out in the Sunday Herald.
” Sturgeon savages Tories as a threat to the very fabric of Scottish society”
I agree.”
Sectarian division has always been a threat to Scottish society. If you’re my age and a Scottish football fan, you have had the awful privilege of watching Scottish sectarian violence first hand, beginning in the mid 70’s. You might even have had a good kicking from lovely chaps wearing blue and green, as a kid, before you could out run them. I stood with my Grandad on Hampden terraces watching grown men chasing each other with meat cleavers and broken bottles, closely followed by mounted police armed wealed long thick truncheons.
All of this kind of sectarian violence had the tacit approval of tory imperial master baiters, until that is it all kicked off in England. Thatcher for example, had to ban Scotland/England Wembley matches, rightly so, they were horrifying displays of mob mass violence, in iconic London like Piccadilly Circus and Covent Garden.
Yet the approval of our tory master baiters is still here in their Scotland region. BBC Scotland have made several tv documentaries on sectarian football violence, a weirdly BBC glorification of it all, as now middle aged thugs and goons explain how they liked to fight on Scottish streets, who got hurt and how.
OO are ofcourse now being exploited by the tories, big clubs still think they can make money out of it all, but if Scottish football is on the wane, its entirely due to sectarianism and the approval it all has. Re, stinky old The Guardian.
…and i get scoffed at when I say the Northern Ireland option is on the table as a route the British establishment will take to maintain control of resources.
Thanks to Brexit, Britain’s short list of assets is shrinking, if anyone thinks that there will just be a referendum,’yes’ will win and then it will be on to independence and self-governance for Scotland which will walk away with the larger chunk of Britains natural assets then they are utterly and hopelessly naive.
@ Meg Merrilees
The high anglican church essentially practices the same rites as the roman catholic church.
You are not talking one collective protestant faith , as historically the presbyterians were brutally persecuted ,along with other dissenters , by the english establishment and the anglican faith.
Against this background ,and the founding of the united irishmen , Hugh Boulter , the anglican archbishop of armagh , famously quipped ,
“the worst of this is that it stands to unite protestant and papist , and when that happens , you can kiss goodbye to Englands rule in Ireland forever.”
It was in the mid nineteenth century the english establishment , spurred on by a wee guy called henry cooke , allowed the presbyterians , long a thorn in englands side , to flood the orange order.
( which was essentially a high tory anglican conservative counter revolutionary force , elitist , governed by the gentry from which presbyterians were banned)
The idea being to divide and conquer the united irishmen and stop a repeat of the late 18th century irish rebellion.
So to answer your question , no , they wouldnt vocally oppose Theresa May , but i dont think you would find any self respecting presbyterian sitting at a high anglican church sermon.
The presbyterian protestants in ulster or of ulster extraction in scotland have , over the course of the last 150 odd years , been deliberately subverted into believing a mythological history of a world that didnt exist and doing the westminster establishments dirty work for them.
They are more interested in believing made up folklore , whilst ignoring the complexities of historical reality.
Who canforget the look of utter betrayal when Peter Robinson found out the westminster government had been doing deals with republicans on the run ,and still they stand by them.
As was once said ,
“better to be the enemy of westminster than its friend.
If you are the enemy , they will try and buy you.
If a friend , they will try and sell you”
So no , maggie maybes religion will be of no consequence to them.
I wonder if Ruth’s Tories and the Ultra Unionists in Labour are acting out another script here.
The OO involvement will only bring a small number of votes and not enough to make a big difference in FPTP.
Something else is happening.
I believe that we should consider this as an example of threatening behaviour.
This is the Ultra Unionists sending a message.
The message – drop the Independence campaign or we will mobilise a violent and nasty element in Scottish society.
Getting OO support to put an X against a candidate in the hope of winning a few council seats is not the intention.
I equate this to Mosley sending his Blackshirts into London’s East End in 1936 to intimidate Jewish people.
The Tory and Labour parties are attempting to intimidate the Yes movement to drop pro-Scottish activities e.g. Independence.
“Look” Ruth and Labour are saying, “we can mobilise the OO and sectarian hatred. Now back off! Drop Independence, get back in your box and know your place in subserviance to London rule.”
Rooth-the-Mooth walking the walk…
http://imgur.com/a/hWQz1
Lovers of the Butcher’s Apron will be rejoicing
Fair enough @defo says at 2:27pm we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Any one else reminded of Spitting Image sketch in which they spoof ‘Tomorrow Belongs to Me’ sorry computer skills not good enough to provide link.
I never forgave Scottish labour for standing with the Tories in 2014. I will certainly NEVER forgive the Tories for encouraging the sectarian vote for personal political gain. They would see Scotland burn rather than democracy flourish. They are abhorrent and should be thoroughly ashamed. They need to be called out at every opportunity. No weasel words, no excuses!
@ thomas – great quote:
“better to be the enemy of westminster than its friend.
If you are the enemy , they will try and buy you.
If a friend , they will try and sell you”
Will remember that.
@ izzie – always worth another viewing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T3OwB6mARI
The painting of WoO waving a sword originally had him carrying the Papal Banner. The Vatican bells see rung in celebration of his victory in Ireland and the returning of rebellious RCs back under Roman rule.
Now either the OO hope we forget the original mission of religious tolerance just as they might foster the idea that somehow Scotland, despite being a predominantly Protestant land at the time, had to be conquered just as was Ireland. Or they happily admit to saying one thing to gain power and going back on it in the past.
Not exactly people you’d trust but then they don’t get that it doesn’t take that many of those who voted No in the referendum to change their minds due to feeling betrayed. Perhaps some of them lent their votes to the SNP in an attempt to get whichever Government came to power to honour the Vow.
Capella, that’s even more scary than the original which was spine chilling enough. I’d forgotten about this version. We could do with a show like this again.
Thanks Capella much appreciated
@Wee Alex says: 7 May, 2017 at 12:25 pm:
“Thankfully not all Rangers fans share the views of the extremists amongst them.”
True, Wee Alex, but then not every Tory voter shares all the more extreme views of the extreme right wing Tories amongst them, either but by voting Tory they do inflict the extremists among them upon rest of us.
If you get my meaning.
Jockanese Wind Talker says:
7 May, 2017 at 3:22 pm
“Fair enough @defo says at 2:27pm we’ll have to agree to disagree.”
Cheers JWT. Can we agree that the OO, to a man (and eastern star woman) they’re technically what’s known as ‘Bawbags’ though mate ?
Having OO councillors could be the undoing of both Labour and the Tories, when it comes to the General Election. Same as ex-UKIP and other extremists in the Tory ranks. In that respect the SH did a great job today with its 2 articles and today at least, justified its “We support Independence” claim. Little things can make a big difference – the SNP disciplines or disowns any extremists it might have.
Anyway, vote share, my feeling looking at some results was that the SNP share was up, and glad to see SGP has the same from the results he looked at.
Which is curious, because the Green vote has also gone up, so it’s not a transfer from Green. Nor is it LibDem, they stayed the same or dropped only very slightly.
So it’s either some remains of Labour and surely most of them would have switched already if it was to the SNP, Independents being more focussed – or even some disgusted Conservatives. I actually hope it’s the latter, that would put meat on continuing to push out that the Tories in Scotland just rubber-stamp Westminster policies, and are as cruel and inhumane as they are. Plus of course the child tax credit and R clause.
@ weechid @ izzie – welks. Spitting Image was brilliant satire. A Tory Govt used to inspire the satirists but there doesn’t seem to be much about these days. Alan Bissett was good during Indyref14. Not always cheerful:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_scVW5BE29U
@defo says: 7 May, 2017 at 12:29 pm:
“I’ve no time for these chumps, but i’m defo of the school who advocate the ‘I may not agree with what you’re spouting, but will defend (not to the death, that’s going too far for this coward) your right to spout your pish’.”
Which is all very well, defo, but there are two sides to that particular view of standing up for people’s rights that you do not agree with.
The other side of that particular coin is, what about standing up for the rights of the people being abused by the bigots you agree should be allowed to abuse others?
Who stands up for their rights not to suffer the bigoted abuse that you are condoning?
Further to, and Re. the OO.
It’s funny how most things change over time. Most. Some just change their name.
There used to be a cosy wee club called the ‘Beggar’s Benison’ in the !8th C. Basically an organisation for onanists…
I was going to ask whether there should be a space for prejudice in an open society, the other day. Something of a burning question in the late post-industrial/ postmodern times we live in, even if generally left unasked?
https://pages.gseis.ucla.edu/faculty/kellner/Illumina%20Folder/kell5.htm
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/2158244012471957
A bit OT but I made a short video that I posted to archive.org (wont use anything google)
the idea was to find something constructive I could do for the cause and this is what I came up with
I would appreciate anyones opinion but don’t be too harsh I’m a sensitive soul 🙂
https://archive.org/details/ParcelOfRogues
Graeme
All they have done is game the system. Its the same as UKIP or the National Front getting elected to the European Parliament. Turnouts are relatively low, and the PR system can be managed by a determined group. I have looked at the South Lanarkshire results. Turnout in all the wards was up – 14% in ward 9. In most wards it was up around 8%.
In Larkhall the number of voters increased by around 1000 while the total electorate dropped by 300 odds. The conservatives put on 1300 odds votes, we lost 300 odds and Labour 200 odds. So we didn’t do well. However the local Conservative put out a flyer with an unusual colour choice on the day. If you know anyone in the constituency ask them to email you a scan. Draw your own conclusions.
The OO has claimed various numbers for membership. It seems it could be around 20 – 30k. But they will have family members too. And their base is concentrated in the central belt. Allied to Ruth being bigged up by the BBC, Her Maj having a crisis meeting on the day to announce her husband was to retire in a few months, and Brexit being the only news in town, its no great surprise that the Tories got so many folks in.
The Labour vote held up quite well in a lot of wards. Thats the unsung “bad” news. However sitting councillors get big personal votes. If they do their job well enough they get re-elected.
In a general election the turnout is often much higher. Determined groups are not amplified in importance. But it is very very important that SNP voters get out and vote. Don’t believe for a minute that any seat is safe.
I’m a bit behind with the threads today so if it’s been mentioned sorry, but as I read the Rev’s Twitter yesterday saying GCC building had removed the Union flag and raised the Saltire my first thought was that there would be trouble in George Square tonight.
I haven’t heard anything (but not seen any news today) so I presume it didn’t happen, which is good. However I also feel it will only be a matter of time sadly.
The OO should have regular marches and much band playing in that old Tory constituency the the one and only labour MP in Scotland now holds. Whith Ruthie leading the way of course.
Yes Robert P. Agreed.
I should have added that there is a line to be drawn over our rights to freedom of speech. Violence is that line. Physical, mental, and metaphorical versions.
Spouting idiotic, irrational hatred is anathema to most of us, and that’s how they will inevitably dwindle and die out.
Hatred is fine BTW. I have a rational hatred of those who would deny my/our children a fair kick at the ball.
As I said above…Banning shit we don’t like, at the drop of the proverbial hat, is the top of the slippery slope.
Populist diktats like the FBO are where I defer from the SNP line, but we share a common, fundamental goal.
Freedom from tyranny.
No paradox intended.
Somewhere above is a reference to Murdo Fraser praising the “Queen’s Eleven” i kind of laughed it off too. The people of Paisley who voted tory the other day didn’t laugh, they took it seriously. I was unfortunately stuck in a train carriage with rangers fans in the earl 80’s. They were singing “If you hate Arthur Scargill clap your hands” Scotland’s working class unionists at their worst.
@ Graeme – that was a brilliant video.
If I can add a suggestion – a couple of voice overs towards the end, maybe from Alex and Nicola, spliced in with the music, would counteract the dismal opinions of the Unionists at the beginning.
Good clips and music.
Does this mean they’ll have to put notices on all council entrances: Mind Your Knuckles!
Meindevon at 4:17 pm
I dont remember ever seeing a UJ up there. Always been a saltire as far as I have noticed?
I think that young Tory guy who got elected in Shettleston should offer to pay his University £9000 for every year he attended and urge all his constituents to pay for their prescriptions 🙂
If the tape still exists – time for the 1970s play ‘Just Another Saturday’ to be broadcast.
Unfortunately it was a BBC production so there is no hope of that happening.
When I was a bairn I remember being taken by bus to walks (marches)with my mother and sister and my grandda used to wear a sash. He was a catholic and my mother used to clean the church.
Was he a member of the OO? This was back in the late sixties-early seventies.
Capella says:
7 May, 2017 at 4:25 pm
@ Graeme – that was a brilliant video.
If I can add a suggestion – a couple of voice overs towards the end, maybe from Alex and Nicola, spliced in with the music, would counteract the dismal opinions of the Unionists at the beginning.
Thank you Capella
The idea behind the video was to highlight the stupidity of the unionist and the establishment they defend, now I know not all unionists are as stupid as that lot but nonetheless I can’t think of anything any more meaningful coming from Kezia or Ruth or any of the other loyal subjects
wouldn’t be difficult to add voice overs but it seems a shame to break into Caledonia it’s such a beautiful song but it’s a good idea nonetheless.
can you suggest any particular quotes?
Graeme
Remember that Ruth Davidson holds a rank in the TA and could order troops to open fire.
Effigy at 12.53pm,
A parody of a parody or an ode to Ruth,
“Scotland was having trouble, what a sad sad story”
“She needed a new leader to restore her former glory”
“Where oh where was she, where can that Lass be?”
“We looked around, and then we found, that lass for you and me”.
“And now it’s springtime for Ruthie and Britain(ie),
England is happy and gay”
“We’re marching to a faster pace”
“Look out here comes the masterbates”
“Springtime for Ruthie and Britain(ie),
Orangland’s a fine land once more”
“Springtime for Ruthie and Britain(ie),
“Watch out Scotland we’re going on tour”
“Springtime for Ruthie and Britain(ie)”
“Winter for Scotland and France”
“Springtime for Ruthie and Britain(ie)”
“Springtime, Springtime, Springtime, Springtime”
(As a Thatcher like figure comes out dressed as Britannia),
“Come on Orangemen go into your dance”.
Bloated fat fuglies then march down the street playing the sash whilst Ruthie salutes them.
Parody? I’m not so sure.
Just read Ruthie wants to take on Alex Salmond to topple him from his Gordon Westminster seat on 8th June.
Despicable despicable woman.
Oh dear, we’ve been Tango’d.
I see Hearts snatched a thumping victory over Aberdeen, restricting the Dons to a mere 1=2 win.
Maths are never going to be the same again /\(Oo)/\
Yay the Dons btw 🙂
Certainly councils should ban Orange walks, which are displays of sectarian hatred.
If not possible then charge them every penny for a massive police presence (Saturday overtime) and road closures.
They could always march around the Ibrox track.
Seriously, though, they are a danger to a future independent Scotland and many would seem to relish the prospect of sectarian violence in the name of their precious Union. ( see George Square on September 15th. 2014.)
defo @ 4:21pm
I think you’re referring to “symbolic violence”, which is committed against Scotland every day and which is essential to maintaining the “structural violence” that is an all too unwelcome characteristic of post-modern society, IMHO. A legacy of the colonial era. 🙁
http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100546777
defo
I forgot this at the start… Re. metaphorical violence.
@gus1940 says:
7 May, 2017 at 4:36 pm
If the tape still exists – time for the 1970s play ‘Just Another Saturday’ to be broadcast.
Unfortunately it was a BBC production so there is no hope of that happening.
I saw it in the late ’80s or early ’90s when I stayed in London. An Irish guy and I had to explain it to the puzzled locals the following day.
Unfortunately it was a BBC production so there is no hope of that happening
BBC Scotland used to have debates and phone in about football violence and there was always a talking head academic who would explain that it was all just exuberant working class Scotsmen that liked to do this kind of thing and what harm is there in it really.
He then came back into the devo fray as an extremely vote NO BBC Scotland academic going to in the indy ref1 run up, cant mind his name and he is a SLabour member, natch. All of the above is probably not coincidental.
It wasn’t Prof’s Curtice, Tomkins or Devine. Although Prof Tomkins is now Gers greatest fan and christ only knows what that sneaky shit’s getting up in Ibrox.
WOS archive links for November 2013 now over on O/T.
Freedom of speech.
I think this was tested in the early years of America. Freedom of speech is protected by an Amendment but legal guidance followed that this did not give a person the right to shout “Fire” in a crowded theatre (danger to people).
Therefore the impact and circumstances must be considered in any debate.
Should Scotland be on its way to independence as a result of IndyRef2, violence is guaranteed by the extremists on the right in Scotland – guaranteed. What form that takes and to what extent we will just have to wait and see. Fucking scum.
I believe a big enough majority of Scots, though, will be so repulsed by the actions of the few that they will not let Scotland fall into the trap of an ‘Ulsterisation’ of Scotland set by the hate-filled cretins.
There are people on the right who would like nothing more than Scotland to break into civil war, with Glasgow being the centre of the ‘Troubles’. Westminster, with their covert assistance too, of course.
It’ll probably be too close for comfort, but once things settle down after the attempted ‘coup’, Scotland will, bit by bit, thrive, free at last from Westminster fascists and their idealogue which spawns the far right-wing numbnuts and their hate-filled existence. Good riddance to them and their bad rubbish.
Just another Saturday – Believe it or not is on youtube. I have been trying to find “United Kingdom”, which starred Ricky Tomlinson for years – to no avail. Anyhoo, enjoy.
Also did some rough and ready maths on the Motherwell & Wishaw district. 4 wards, 25k votes cast on and the respective tories polled 3,923 votes. A total of 15% vote share on a turnout of 46%.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXJnAebGgFE
heedtracker says:
7 May, 2017 at 5:12 pm
‘Although Prof Tomkins is now Gers greatest fan and christ only knows what that sneaky shit’s getting up in Ibrox.’
Its mind boggling why someone from Kent should be such an avid fan. Just part of his political career perhaps. Was he a fan when he was a republican? That’s a long road he’s travelled.
Graeme
Superb video, well done!
Abit from the Belfast telegraph in 2015, I can see them helping Mundell in the GE.
The Orange Order has backed Fermanagh County Grand Master Stuart Brooker after he said gay people could not join the organisation because “homosexuality is wrong”.
Speaking in an interview with The Impartial Reporter, Mr Brooker said any member that was gay would likely have to leave the organisation.
He was speaking following the publication of a good relations audit by the County Fermanagh Grand Lodge aimed at building community relations and awareness of the work of the organisation.
Asked for the Orange Order’s view on homosexuality, Mr Brooker told The Impartial Reporter: “We’re a Christian organisation and therefore we believe in what the Bible teaches.
“The Bible teaches that homosexuality is wrong.
“That doesn’t mean we are anti-homosexuals, LGBT people or that we hate people. I personally don’t agree, I believe homosexuality is wrong because the Bible teaches me it is wrong.”
Mr Brooker said the organisation had never had to deal with a gay person trying to join, however, he said the rules and regulations would not allow it.
Ah. Good timing re my last comment. From WOS’s Twitter feed:
From some deviant by the name of Lloyd Cross…
“This is not a Tory revival.
This is a Scottish Protestant revival.
And it’s only just beginning
NO SURRENDER”
Of course, “Lloyd Cross” could well be some 13-year-old already-indoctrinated spotty youth from Kilwinning…
Whatever. Same shitty team, same shitty jersey.
Its mind boggling why someone from Kent should be such an avid fan. Just part of his political career perhaps. Was he a fan when he was a republican? That’s a long road he’s travelled.
Good questions. Do you think that maybe Sir Gordon Brewer OBE will ever ask Prof Smirky questions like this?
If we are heading for car bombings, fanatics like these guys will have of course had absolutely no influence whatsoever.
Raging loyal fanaticism among uni academics in their ivory towers, is not exactly unknown in Scotland. Enraged retired history Prof’s frae Embro stick out but Prof Smirky’s got two targets, Ruth’s job, and or the Lords. No one is going to stand in the way of his route to British Law Lord greatness, no one.
@Capella says: 7 May, 2017 at 2:16 pm:
” … Gove said May’s politics could be best understood by examining them through a Catholic prism, “particularly Catholic social thought. (whatever that means)”.
Ah! The actual meaning of the word, “Catholic”, means – Universal if that helps, Capella:
catholic:-
adjective;
including a wide variety of things; all-embracing.
“her tastes are pretty catholic”
synonyms: universal, diverse, diversified, wide, broad, broad-based, eclectic, liberal, latitudinarian. Etc.
Having said all this stuff today, I have to say I found out something recently that just about put me on my arse…
A guy I’ve known for years as a hardcore Rangers supporter and ‘high heed-yin’ in the local Masonic Lodge… is a Yes Scotland adherent and fully supports an independent Scotland! I honestly thought he was taking the piss! But no. It really is true.
So then. If someone like yer man there can be a full-on Scottish independence supporter, well there’s hope for us all yet!
The Masonic Lodge is a different organisation from the Orange Lodge, right enough, although some do equate the two.
Hae ma doots there’s many in the OO/OL that are supporters of Scottish independence, mind you, even covertly, so to speak!
Here’s a report on Arlene Foster’s speech in Glasgow on 28th April.
http://archive.is/TbZzy
Interestingly no details of where or to whom.
But her twitter account does make clear she was at the rangers/celtic game.
This idea of the Tories of encouraging bigotry and ignorance for political gain reminds me of a major political party in a central European country in the 30’s – just can’t remember its name.
One of my grandads spent the last half of his life with a partner from the opposite team. Though he only married my ‘granny’ at the end of his time, he was honoured with a full mass(?) ceremony due to his history of community support. I simply can’t understand sectarian bigotry, or those who insist on living in the past.
Robert Peffers:
Sorry to be pedantic but in this case, it’s Catholic as a noun. Hence the capital ‘C’.
To have a catholic taste in wine/music means you would have a wide-ranging taste in wine/music – agreed.
But this is Anglo-Catholic as opposed to Roman Catholic – sorry to be pedantic but there is a difference. …https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Catholicism
Arrgh! I’ve three times rewritten a long explanation.
All about why, from before the Roman’s arrived in Briton and before England came into being, the whole concept of government was dependent upon the concept of Divine Right of Kings, (a.k.a. sovereignty), and thus that it is not possible to keep religion out of British politics and that is one main reason the unionists & Loyal Orange Order will not surrender the Queen of England’s Sovereignty and why they maintain that Westminster has sovereignty over Scotland and why they hate Roman Catholics.
Trouble was I began by pointing out that before the Roman’s arrive the concept was well established as Queen Boudicca’s Husband was king and the Roman’s, “Romanised”, him to run things for Rome under the Roman Governor in Britain. Trouble was I then mentioned that after he died Queen Boudicca rebelled and led the rebellion against the Romans who subsequently flogged Boudicca and r@ped Boudicca’s two daughters and r@pe is one of Rev Stu’s banned words.
Sheeeeesh!
Anyway there it is unionism & loyal to royalty are two cheeks of the same bigoted arse. It is the reason the CofE is the established Church in England and the HOL has Archbishops sitting in it as well as Hereditary Peers stretching back to the Norman Conquest and why Ireland is split in two. It is all through the history of Britain.
How can one square banning offensive language at football, with granting a license for same content to be aired?
Ban it, or.. grant a closed-arena-only event licence, without alcohol..so only they hear what is offensive to others. That is freedom of speech in action.
…full mass funeral(?) ceremony
Wonder if those folk who voted for Conservative councillors still expect the Scottish government to mitigate or offset the legislation of Westminster Tories? As the worst legislation and cuts continue to affect the block grant and individual policies, there will be less to go round and prioritising becomes ever more important.
More importantly, I wonder if they think they have a right to complain about Westminster legislation as and WHEN it affects their lives negatively?
In the midst of their one policy messaging to the Scottish government, they should mibbies have thought that one through.
CameronB Brodie at 6:17 pm
‘I simply can’t understand sectarian bigotry, or those who insist on living in the past.’
It does seem very pointless unless they are avid church-goers and keen historians of the 17th century, which I very much doubt. Maybe has psychological function of giving a sense of belonging and acceptance, boosting collective self-esteem, and the other side provide a socially (in their circle) acceptable target for displaced anger and frustration.
But then I’m a piscy so what do I know.
Capella @ 14:16,
Robert Peffers @ 17:58,
I took it to mean conservative but with a significant social-religious dimension, like your traditional Christian Democrat on the Continent (“Christian” in this case very often meaning RC in areas in which that denomination was predominant.)
May has certainly parroted the occasional platitudinous phrase of concern for the well-being of ordinary folk, though more perhaps out of an astute recognition that there is manifest popular resentment against a well-off selfish establishment which she fully intends to exploit and divert (for the sake of that very establishment).
The false People’s Tribune, just like Trump.
But it’s a shallow description, since no respectable Christian Democrat would have any truck whatever with a greed-obsessed austerity-max society reliant on food banks, nor any kind of pseudo-religious quasi-masonic secret society of bigots.
Ruth Davidson is her convenient “arms-length” operator, who can get her own hands dirty without sullying the saintly Theresa. Davidson’s jovial extrovert act may be attractive at first glance but it is a thin facade; look behind the mask of bonhomie and you see something much darker and thuggish. If the Unionists believe they can reap success by stoking up bigotry, it is a strategy that is very much in her image, and the consequences will lie directly at her door.
Ruthless, your card is marked.
OK. I may have just provided a critical insight into what is happening in Scotland today but I still can’t empathize with the mindset of a bigot. I’m quite glad of that personal shortcoming, frankly. 🙂
Macart @ 18:32,
It’s very difficult to bring the votes and the consequences together, alas. These Tory voters are rather like the wee playground sneak who eggs others to fight but stays well back and safely enjoys the spectacle. The typical Tory voter, if they even bothered to think beyond the dog-whistle soundbites of their masters, would be very happy to decry the SG for everything under the sun while simultaneously gleefully enjoying their free care and their free prescriptions, etc.
I sometimes think that these voters should be made somehow to endure living with the policies they voted for. For example, by standing aside and allowing the Tories full rein to run one or two areas as minority administrations, just to show their stupid supporters what they are really like. But like Labour has done until now, I suppose they would simply blame the SG for all their failings.
Maybe what is needed is a “what-if” video, a dystopic mock documentary showing what life for ordinary Scots would really be like if independence was blocked and the Tories took over both north and south in an everlasting Union. Old folks being turfed out of their care homes if they couldn’t pay, people suffering from illnesses they couldn’t afford to get treated by American-run private healthcare providers, large Nuremberg-style rallies with lots of Union Jacks flying, etc, etc.
It might wake up enough good people to see that it’s not a route that we ever want to go down, and the only realistic alternative is…
…well, you know!
sassenach says:
7 May, 2017 at 5:44 pm
Graeme
Superb video, well done!
Thank you sassanenach 🙂
Graeme
Well done France… Vive la France. 🙂
@ Robert Peffers – thx for the elucidation. Gove obviously chose the wrong adjective. Maybe “brutal” would be more appropriate.
St Theresa, Patron Saint of Foodbanks.
Macron “projected” to become the next French President. Let’s hope they are right. Or will they do a “ruthie” and have the postal votes hand delivered by Le Pen supporters?
65% projected? Let’s hope so. If it’s actually below 55% that doesn’t bod well.
Even if Macron wins 65%, 1 in 3 Frenchmen voted for a Nazi. I don’t see anything to celebrate. What a vile country.
Glamaig
I think you’ve nailed it and it applies to both sides of the problem. Religion still plays a significant role in shaping social values, despite it’s apparently waning social significance, or as we often chose to believe otherwise.
Would it be crass to point out that Scottish and English societies are historically shaped by different Christian cultures? As far as I understand things Anglicanism is not same as Presbyterianism.
These so-called fans of cultural purity really need to get an education and step into civilisation. To think that serious political parties would use these trumpets as their foot-soldiers, really does highlight how desperate and unprincipled Yoons are.
Even if Macron wins 65%, 1 in 3 Frenchmen voted for a Nazi. I don’t see anything to celebrate. What a vile country.
Let us celebrate that 2 in 3 did not.
Bugsbunny, that comment could be turned on its’ head regarding Scotland, so I would consider retracting it?
It looks like by far the vast majority in France have rejected the far right. Just watching the coverage, I note lots of EU flags, people of all races, LGBT flags and even a German flag in the crowd. This is a clear victory for decency over fear.
Macron appears to have won (decisively) but the BBC is broadcasting Marine Le Pen’s speech!!! Saying there is disappointment that L e Pen has not been elected as President!!!
Are they all in cahoots? tRuthless, TM, Farage ( who was on TV this morning> and Le Pen.
Vive La France et L’Europe. German elections next – let’s hope Europe holds it’s nerve and takes the sensible route.
I know HandandShrimp, 2 in 1 did not and many, as much as 25% abstained. But was it abstention, or a mixture of abstention and apathy? Let’s see what the figures are? If the demographics suggest that the young, impressionable and poor mainly voted Le Pen, then we’re all stuffed. As Hitler once said, “he alone, who owns the youth gains the future”. If these are the people who voted Macron, all well and good. If they are the ones who voted Le Pen?…….
The BBC is in love with the far right. UKIP have had far more exposure and slots on TV interviews, QT etc than their representation merits. The BBC do not report on politics they are active participants in politics.
Nice to see the darling of the BBC and other UK right wing media, Le Pen, has been beaten.
Two to one. Scotland would have given a similar result, and that is still far too many voting hard right!
As for England, someone like Le Pen might have actually won there.
“The BBC do not report on politics they are active participants in politics.”
Seconded.
Nice job France.
Marine La Pen who? 35%
France will not be joining the UK on its journey through the Brexit wilderness.
According to the BBC, he got lucky… He was canny… He tried something new in France… He had a positive message.
I do believe the BBC seems a teeny bit “gutted”.
https://archive.is/kJl50
And oh yeah, reason No 5: he was up against the French National Fronts xenophobic and far right racist anti immigration agenda steered by Marine La Pen who planned to set up France like UKIP set up the UK with Brexit.
The Unionists have tied their colours to a small but vocal minority within the Protestant religion.
In fact there are 1.7 million in Scotland with a Church of Scotland connection. Around half that number for the Catholic population. However it is estimated there are over 2 million who follow no faith whatsoever . I do not count other religions such as Islam and Sikhism and Buddhism.
In effect the Tories and Labour may count on a hardcore vote of around 50,ooo Scots, but that is all.
My own family are predominantly Protestant but voted for indy.
I think they take much for granted.
@ Meg merrilees – the BBC will be gutted. All their coverage was hoping for a fascist win – and FREXIT – like in GB. Well that’s well and truly scuppered. JC Junker will be celebrating.
The difference between the CoE where Catholism had the pope tipexed out and the king penciled in as head of the church in England and Presbyterianism in Scotland eventually led to some of the most stubborn here being exiled to Ulster.
Part of the reason Scotland accepted WoO’s petition to rule beside Mary as Queen is that put an end to the attempts to force the monarchy into being head of the church in Scotland and reversion to more “palish” forms of worship.
Basically the different forms of Protestantism in England and Scotland had a lot to do with how the union developed
Cameron
It’s all part of the Fear brigade.
Little people without much hope and wealth are kept in their place by threats and fear of the ‘controlling’ forces of the Establishment.
I’ve just read an analysis of Macron’s campaign:
“He’s young, full of energy, and he’s not explaining what he’ll do for France but how people will get opportunities. He’s the only one to have this kind of message.”
Up against this more optimistic tone, Marine Le Pen’s message came across as negative – anti-immigration, anti-EU, anti-system.
Macron campaign rallies featured brightly lit arenas blaring with pop music, says Emily Schultheis, while Marine Le Pen’s mass meetings involved protesters throwing bottles and flares, a heavy police presence, dark audience stands and an “angrier” undercurrent.
Interesting comparison when you consider Nicola’s open walk-about and TM’s hide and seek campaign.
Great news from France, the Brexiteers must be so disappointed. Watch the BBC spin this as a notional win for le Pen 😀
Meg,
They are all in cahoots. A 65 year old grey haired English worker at Sainsbury’s Prestwick called Jeff, who loudly voiced his opinions on both Inderef1 and Brexit, was always a big fan of the likes of Le Pen.
The likes of UKIP, BettertogetheTher, Nation Front. They are all stinking jobbies in a barrel of keech. They hate Scottish Independence, Europe, and what Jeff called immigrants of the swarthy variety. Haven’t seen him in months. I hope the old bigot has retired.
@Robert J Sutherland
Maybe they should spend sometime playing ‘just imagine’.
Just imagine Labour still held full sway on Scotland’s politics from council to both parliaments. Imagine more get rich quick schemes from ALEOs to PFI rolling off a legislative production line and neverending meek acceptance of every piece of Westminster legislation in exchange for some ermine a daily occurrence.
Imagine no Scottish parliament whatsoever. No SNP, or GREEN representation. Just the usual suspects, a Scottish office and a Conservative Secretary of state. A time when folk knew their place. Remember how much fun it was as the three of them took apart Scotland’s manufacturing base? Sent tens of thousands onto the dole? Turned working communities into sink estates? Remember when Scots were legislative guinea pigs for the very worst Thatcher could come up with?
Y’know, the good old days.
Maybe the SNP and Greens should step back and give the Yoons the bestest birthday present ever? Give them their full measure, take some chill time and let them get on with it. I mean, their head office has done such a bang up job south of the border. Folk in Scotland maybe should get the full on unfiltered treatment for our NHS, education, services, just the way the folk of England and Wales do?
We’d get to marvel at Brexit just like them. We could allow hate crime to rise unchecked and enjoy the same respect on the international stage as the rest of UK politics.
Just imagine.
BBC interviewer desperately trying to piss on the parade of nice positive and polite French lady Macron supporter.
Bang goes the BBC desire for the EU to fold because of Le pen. Never mind, there’s always Merkel
@ Graeme
I also think your video is really good – though I do rather wish you hadn’t chosen one of my favourite pieces of music right at the beginning to accompany the Butcher’s Apron! I’m conflicted, because it was nice listening to it, but I want it to have nice associations.
It does sound a bit martial in that particular version, but since it’s Russian, and meant to represent someone walking round an art gallery, what prompted you to choose it?
The selfish middle classes, the British nationalist elderly, the thugs and the English currently make up a majority of the voting population, in my view.
They are not for turning, no matter what.
We need to convince those who do not vote to get out and vote for the SNP and for Yes.
We will definitely lose again if we are stupid enough to again waste valuable time and resources on unsuccessfully trying to convince people who are highly unlikely to vote Yes.
Here’s something to cheer folks up. When I moved to Kelty in 1962 there was apparently no Swallows that migrated to Scotland in our Summer.
Then one year we had reports from Vane Farm, The RSPB Centre, on the most Northern side of Benarty Hill. Swallows had suddenly appeared and were nesting in one of their barns.
Every year since then we have had Swallows as the harbingers of Summer and my cottage has an overhang of the roof at the eaves.
Every year the Swallows put on the most amazing flying display coming in swiftly and up under the eaves catching the midges and then out again without touching anything. The midges seem to love the sheltered and still air up under the cottage eaves.
This afternoon the first Swallows arrived and are now putting on a great flying display.
Summer has arrived folks.
So it looks like the UK Brexiteers are out on their own. Those dominoes are just not falling the extreme right way as predicted.
love glamaig’s comment on the result of the french presidential election –
“the Brexiteers must be so disappointed. Watch the BBC spin this as a notional win for le Pen”
was thinking exactly the same thing!!
I’m ready, ????????.
Robert,
My old dad always awaited the first cuckoo of the spring. i can’t remember if an early cuckoo meant a hotter drier summer or not? Years ago I used to read, every September in the Sunday Post about an amateur weatherman from Girvan in South Ayrshire about his predictions for the next 6 months to 12 months based on his observations of nature. He was nearly always right. Or maybe that’s how I remember it?
Glamaig says:
7 May, 2017 at 7:38 pm
“”Great news from France, the Brexiteers must be so disappointed. Watch the BBC spin this as a notional win for le Pen ?””
……………
BBC News around 5.35pm said that if Le Pen got 40% of the vote then that would mean that her party was now an established national party!
The BBC are not going to give up promoting her and Farage. A loss is still a win in their convoluted spinning. Just as gaining 6 seats and more votes are a loss for the SNP – in the BBC’s humble opinion.
Does anyone know which right-wing opponent of Mrs Merkel is going to be promoted by the BBC?
the French really know how to celebrate an election win!
Here we go again:
The Labour party in Scotland has had a meeting and decided that the increase of Labour voters moving to vote Tory is, wait for it, Nicola Sturgeons fault, I know I know but that’s what they’ve decided, so much so that James Kelly has accused Nicola Sturgeon of being a recruiting sergeant for the Tories, I know I know but that’s what he said, live on the Telly as well
James Kelly doesn’t seem have thought this new idea through very well, if Nicola Sturgeon was going to be a recruiting sergeant for anybody wouldn’t it be more likely she would do that job for the SNP
But No, James Kelly has convinced his party so much that the strategy he has come up with for the upcoming General Election is, guess what, to blame the SNP and all who vote for them of being in league with the Tories in the sure and certain belief that “normal” Labour voters, whoever they are, will come back from the Tories to Labour
And once again poor old James Kelly missed the point again
The Tories screwed over Labour umpteen times but Labour are so obsessed with hating the SNP they’re too stupid to look up and notice Ruth Davidsons laughing belly like a bowl full of jelly bouncing up and down on their thick heads replacing any semblance of brain activity with Tory bile and it’s dribbling out their ears and down their necks
Poor deluded Kezia keeps on listening to the head girl as she’s getting bashed on the head by a hockey stick that if she keeps repeating the No referendum noises like Ruth tells her it’ll defo work, and dopey Kezia keeps doing Ruths job for her
It’s a bit like saying Labour are the B team in case the Tories can’t turn up, but the trouble with that strategy is as long as it’s Labour always getting injured in training the Tories will always be turning up to collect the prize
Which will always be second place because in no ones mind in the Yooniverse will the Tories ever come first in Scotland thus consigning Labour to third place or even worse below the Liberal Democrats
Oh the shame of it
And I bet when that happens they’ll still blame Nicola Sturgeon as the political funeral director is hammering in the last nail
Hi crazycat
I don’t know the origins of that piece of music it’s certainly powerful but I chose it simply because it seemed to depict what i wanted to portray in the video, it happens to be the opening score to the The New Statesman and it just seemed to fit the bill.
I actually struggled more with Jerusalem which is simply beautiful music and I’m still not convinced it was the right choice but i couldn’t find anything better
But thanks for your comments it is appreciated and hopefully help me make better videos in the future 🙂
Graeme
BBC man completely irony free, says there was no fairness in the media, it all ganged up to support Macron 😀
Knew it already. Scum.
Lovely to read Robert, I heard my first Swifts screeching overhead today as well.
—— ——-
Macart:
Just imagine if we still had Ravenscraig?
If we still had shipbuilding etc….
I actually had to try and convince an elderly labour voter yesterday that the NHS in Scotland wasn’t as bad as England’s NHS. She truly believes our’s is hopeless.
Don’t think I succeeded even although she knows we get free prescriptions, free parking in hospitals, better access to drugs, shorter waiting times, better A&E performance… she knew all that but because the paper said it was bad here she believes it.
Just imagine if we had a balanced media? an impartial BBC?
A BBC journalist just asked an African-French woman if she had a problem with the Media (unfairly was the insinuation) backing Macron… utterly speechless at that.
Maybe someone can grab it from about 8pm on the dot on BBC News channel? Hopefully.
Bravo! Vive la France!!
Well done to the people of France and congratulations M Macron!
Of the reknowned Clan MacRon = )
I’m sure we could russel up a bonny tartan for this occasion 🙂
Wow, am taken aback by my overwhelming sense of relief.
= )
Great idea Ghillie 😀
Talking about the BBC, that Sainsbury’s employee Jeff thought the BBC to be Left Wing Liberals. Say’s a lot about his UKIP policies and beliefs? Rock is right. He came here 5 years ago for the freebies, voted UKIP and No and leave. More of these silver settlers from “down south” and it’ll be another No. I do not have an answer. What next to be inclusive? Inviting people over from East Belfast. FFS.
I note Jeremy Hunt admits there will be no ‘bus ad’ £350m a week for the NHS.
The back tracking is reminiscent of the reneging on IndyRef1 promises. The promises weren’t made by a Westminster government, definitely not, they were just ideas banned about by campaigners. You know, voters must have realised that it had no real meaning, yes?
Problem of course is, a Hell of a lot of politically unsophisticated voters do in fact believe that ‘promises’ like this are genuine and take them at face value.
Imagine if a big company, a supermarket chain say, used similar techniques!
It’s a dirty underhand way to behave. We can expect exactly the same in ScotRef with promises which are worth absolutely nothing. The official YES campaigns and pro Indy parties need to be ready to shoot this stuff down in flames as soon as it appears.
I was wondering why we haven’t had the share of the vote published, so I decided to go the the bother of adding them up. Still waiting for results from Aberdeenshire, East Dunbartonshire, Fife, Highland, Moray and Orkney.
Hmmm, so far:
SNP 34.1%
LAB 27.5%
CON 19.9%
LD 5.2%
GRN 3.7%
IND 8%
OTH 1.5%
Tory surge anyone?
Given the choice between Blair and Farage who would you vote for?
That is the choice the French had.
Macron is a neoliberal chameleon.
Rock,
Or as they say in South Park, “The choice is a douchebag and a shit sandwich”.
Or in Scotland’s case, “A barrel of Shit, a barrel of shite and a barrel of keech”.
@ Graeme
Thanks for your nice reply to my post; I didn’t now the NS* used it, but it’s Promenade from Pictures at an Exhibition by Mussorgsky – which I prefer in the original piano version.
I agree about Jerusalem; I also think William Blake might be appalled by the way his anti-industrialization poem has been hijacked! Though having looked it up, I see there’s a lot of debate about what he intended it to mean, as well as regrets from Parry about how his setting of the words was later used.
*As someone who has never owned a TV, I initially thought you were referring to the weekly publication! Oh dear.
@bugsbunny says: 7 May, 2017 at 7:53 pm:
“Years ago I used to read, every September in the Sunday Post about an amateur weatherman from Girvan in South Ayrshire about his predictions for the next 6 months to 12 months based on his observations of nature. He was nearly always right. Or maybe that’s how I remember it?”
No you are right I remember the guy too. He was usually never far wrong.
Legerwood says:
7 May, 2017 at 7:54 pm
‘Does anyone know which right-wing opponent of Mrs Merkel is going to be promoted by the BBC?’
I think Alternativ fur Deutschland are on the wane, and I doubt if even the BBC would promote them. I hope I’m right on that.
They wont get near power anyway, they’ll be locked out by a SPD/CDU coalition if need be, like what happened with the PDS (successor to the DDR communists).
I feel a bit queasy about grand coalitions, but the Germans have sound historical reasons for it, both with PDS and AfD.
Crazycat,
A long time ago Jerusalem was a co anthem with the Red Flag for the Labour Party. Land of Hope and Glory was always the Tory anthem.
Tactical voting against tory seats has gone viral
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/19_yf4RL133fBKscvSbID4eRKwztzY9KSI_2BMaI1bU8/pubhtml
If Ireland chooses re unification where does that leave the O.O. ?
If your arithmetic is right Albert Herting, then the ‘proportional’ system appears to not quite be… eh… proportional?
Glamaig says:
7 May, 2017 at 8:24 pm
I hope you are right but given the BBC’s recent, and not so recent, behaviour I would not put anything past them.
@ bugsbunny at 8.26
Yes, I was reminded of that when I checked it out a few minutes ago; we used to sing it at the trendy-lefty school I went to.
I suspect I’ve met Jeff-at-Sainsbury’s (and possibly you too, unknowingly), unless there’s more than one such employee at the store. If I see him again, I’ll look at his name badge. Did you say he’d gone?
Apologies ‘Herring’ even. (Android typo)
Yes, you’re right @Brian McHugh. With only 3 or 4 members elected it’s not very proportional. If the number of members elected was increased to 5 or 6, it would be a lot more so.
Ruth Davidson is an Orange woman. She hides beneath the veneer of respectability. Unionists in Scotland have always had a connection to Ulster and Ethnic protestants. They are Scotland shame. The little Englander racists.
Thankfully the most they can muster is 22%. They are not of any relevance to modern Scots.
A proposed tactical voting guide to keep the Tories out:-
All Scottish constituencies = Vote SNP
Simple
@ Albert Herring
That’s a heroic task you’ve undertaken! Unless the ones you’ve yet to add make a big difference (which I doubt), I think you’ve answered your own question about why the BBC hasn’t reported this.
Capella says:
7 May, 2017 at 2:16 pm
@ meg merrilees – No idea! just noticed that Gove is citing her “catholic” views:
Gove said May’s politics could be best understood by examining them through a Catholic prism, “particularly Catholic social thought. (whatever that means).
Capella, let me help you out. What ‘Catholic social thought’ means is a body of specific documents issued by successive Popes since the end of the 19th Century.
The first of these documents was published in 1893, or thereabouts, by Pope Leo XIII. It was called ‘Rerum Novarum’ (concerning ‘new things’). The ‘new things’ addressed were social problems arising from recent industrialisation in mainland Europe. It condemned the rampant exploitation of labour, and affirmed the right of workers to form unions and associations in order to defend their rights and economic interest.
The most recent of these documents is called ‘Laudato Si’, issued by the present Pope Francis a year or two ago on the need to address the many environmental issues facing humanity today. In between there are many social encyclicals (i.e. letters) from the likes of Popes John XXIII, Paul VI and John Paul II. In the 1960s the Second Vatican Council issued a key document called ‘Gaudium et Spes’ (Peace and Joy).
These documents address what are seen to be the social, political, economic and cultural issues of the day, and they are addressed not only to Catholics but to all men and women ‘of good will’. The assumption is that there is common ground among all decent human beings, whatever their faith or indeed even if they have no faith and adhere to no religion, concerning the fact that society should be organised for the common good of all.
They also address international relations, emphasising that all of us, especially governments, should encourage justice and peace throughout the world. The themes addressed in these documents are of a socio-political nature. They do not depend on faith, but contain moral teaching which many people who do not believe in Catholicism or Christianity of any form could easily adhere to, and often do. They are part of the Church’s ethical teaching.
It is often said that, unfortunately, this part of Catholic teaching is not sufficiently known even by Catholics themselves. Nevertheless, it has also helped to inspire many Catholic social activists, including trade unionists, down the years. The rights of workers has been a constant theme, ever since 1893. In more recent times, the Church has constantly condemned nuclear weapons, and encourages nuclear disarmament, even unilaterally.
From these two points alone – but there are also many others – it is obvious that Michael Gove is talking utter nonsense when he suggests that Theresa May’s policies reflect Catholic social thought. They certainly do not. Theresa May would regard Catholic Social Teaching as far too ‘left’ for her. In fact she would regard it as downright dangerous – right-wing politicians always have done.
Since Catholic social teaching also opposed communism, the extreme left has also tended to dismiss it. It has to be remembered what, in practice, it was opposing – Stalinism, for instance, or Pol Pot or the Red Brigade or Mao’s China …
On the whole, in terms of social thought, what the (Roman) Catholic Church proposes can generally be described as a rather ‘left of centre’ middle way, between extremes. Extremists on all sides tend not to like it at all, therefore. In terms of the spectrum of Scottish politics, you could not say that any party adheres to all of it, but I would suggest – funnily enough, some will say – the one whose social policies come nearest to it are in fact the SNP.
There is a genuine shared concern for the defence of the weak and the social welfare of all without, all the same, being viscerally opposed to humane and socially aware forms of private enterprise, and even – dare I say it? – capitalism. There is also a very strong awareness that capitalism and private enterprise need to be restrained so that they still serve the common good and do not descend into pure unadulterated greed.
As I said, today’s Tory policies and assumptions, and the belligerence that goes with them, stand in basic opposition to Catholic social teaching. Extreme groups like the OO, and those who foster them, are fundamentally opposed to any form of basic justice to all. They are not just anti-Catholic, but out of kilter with any basic sense of common decency and common humanity shared by us all.
This is not to say that every decent person will be able to identify with every aspect of Catholic teaching. Far from it. It is obvious that many oppose Catholic teaching on various family matters, for example. There is no political party that supports all of Catholic teaching. On some issues you won’t find any Party in Scotland, or indeed Britain, that affirms the Catholic point of view.
That situation is surely the same for every other faith community in Scotland, or Britain. Including those whose faith is to affirm that there is no God – that too is a belief, after all – and who are opposed to all religion.
Probably none of us, whatever our most basic beliefs, whether religious or atheist, will ever be completely 100% satisfied with any one political party. Most of us vote for the one that seems to approximate best to our own basic set of beliefs and priorities. This is our modern situation.
Being a participating citizen in a modern, tolerant, pluralistic society requires a strong degree of mutual respect among people who think and believe differently from each other. Not only is this a key value; it is also a measure of mature adulthood. Only the infantile live in a world where they expect to get their own way all the time. Usually, too, adult people who think and behave in an adult way, can find some common ground with each other. They may disagree on many things, but they will still have real points of contact and mutual acceptance as well.
We ought to be able to celebrate each other’s existence. And have no desire to annihilate – bring to an end – the other person, who thinks and believes differently from us. Aren’t these the conditions for a politics based on civilised discourse, rational debate and honest disagreement? Isn’t mutual respect fundamental? And increasingly lacking … especially in public discourse.
I will never vote for any Party where it is lacking, or where there is tacit or actual collusion with forces radically opposed to such mutual respect. Where I see it most in Scottish politics is in the SNP. It is also because of this, and not just because I am a life-long supporter of Scottish independence, that the SNP have my vote. The Greens might do something for me in this line too, but less so.
The SNP are not perfect; they don’t tick every box in my list of basic beliefs (but they seem to me to do so more than any other Party on offer); they no doubt have some individual numpties as well (but less so, it seems to me, than other Parties); and I thoroughly admire the way their leadership has not colluded with forces that might have helped them superficially in the short term, but which should definitely not be unleashed.
I am not a fanatic for the SNP. I don’t go along with them on every single little thing (though I do agree with them on a lot of things). I do not expect – I don’t think I even want, and certainly would be astonished to find – a viable political Party that agreed 100% of all my own personal views and beliefs 100% of the time. It just isn’t going to happen.
But looking at what’s on offer, the SNP are the nearest approximation to what I want and hold dear, and they get my vote. They don’t support everything that I believe in, but they don’t threaten my basic belief, or outlaw it, or seek to annihilate it either. Other Parties do, or collude with those who do, and I can’t possibly vote for them.
With the SNP, the basic respect is there, and it can therefore be mutually reciprocated. By me, certainly. But also, I think, by many others, whose basic beliefs will in one or another or some respects, be quite different from my own. That, it seems to me, is what it means to be a modern, adult political party. One whose members, and supporters, and those who vote for it are in adult relationship towards each other. They don’t all agree 100% on everything, but they do share some basic common human values, and they know how to mutually respect each other, even where they differ in some regards.
I am still dreaming of an adult Scotland. With an adult politics. But this can only happen with independence, which requires Scots of good will coming together to foster mutually the common good of all, in an adult way.
Even Labour and the Conservatives, or whatever organisations succeed them, will have to grow up at that point … and become adult. It is impossible to create a free and decent society in the modern world without mutual respect – being fundamentally in favour of each other, whatever our deeply held differences – prevailing. Independence, like freedom, is about maturity. That includes political maturity.
Time for us to become mature adults …
(England, too, by the way … )
Anyone seen UKIP leader Paul “Nutter” Nuttall, a.k.a Edward Elizabeth Hitler? Maybe he’s pining for his old friend Richard Richard or he’s in Paris drowning his sorrows? At least if Farage hated the Scot’s he kept it at a low peep. Nuttall is at Gas Mark 10 as far as the Scots are concerned, especially on Question Time.
Meg merrilees @ 7:37pm
There’s nothing much to add to that.
Crazycat,
I haven’t seen him at the Prestwick store since July. Maybe I’m just unlucky. He had silver hair, was near retirement, had a South East English accent, was always opinionated, hated the SNP, E.U. Foreigners, etc He was off once with a broken hip having fallen off a plum tree he was climbing to pick fruit for his wife’s chutney. He was always polite and cheery, except his politics and opinions stank worse than the fish counter.
@ bugsbunny
Thanks! I don’t go there that often, but I do remember a man who fits your physical description of Jeff, and I do think I haven’t seen him for a while. I never discussed anything other than my shopping with him, so was unaware of his views.
Wow, Wull, that was quite a long post! Thankyou for the information.
But well said – I found myself agreeing with a lot of it. Certainly my feelings around the SNP are exactly that.
I like many of their policies and there are no other parties just now that resonate with my aims for Scotland ( possibly Greens).
I lament the way that FMQ’s had been hijacked by the tories and turned into a mini Westminster with all the baying and heckling. The current Presiding Officer could run a ‘tighter ship’ IMO.
I used to love the more respectful, restrained debates that we had under the previous incumbent. However, I suppose the subjects being debated are more contentious and arousing more passion just now.
Enjoy
https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2017/05/07/le-vote-is-mightier-than-le-pen/
bugsbunny says:
7 May, 2017 at 8:54 pm
Crazycat,
You two are too posh lol Sainbury’s I’m Ayr/Pretwick too but never been in Sainsbury’s lol.Lidl and Asda are too dear fur me.
So gladly I’ve never met the auld git you talk of.
How quaint- a sectarian organisation wants to take Scotland back decades. Apart from the challenge to them of representing (regardless of cultural beliefs) all their constituents -that’s what you have to do when you are elected to public office –the ‘no surrender’ reps might be a bit miffed to find that most of Scotland has moved on from the heady days of class division, gender inequality, religious bigotry and racial discrimination and have no interest in participating in their outdoor musicales. Meanwhile our thoughts drift to more pressing issues.
‘When Mrs May talks about the need to reinforce her negotiating mandate with a big majority, she really means securing her grip on power against any attempt by opposition parties to undermine her authority by rejecting any eventual deal. This is very odd at first sight. The opposition parties in the House of Commons do not have any majority to do that now even when joined by a tiny number of pro-EU Tory MPs.
There is, however, a quite different reading of her seemingly perplexing decision to call a general election years before her term expires. That is not because she has any intention of going for a hard Brexit. Rather, it is that – contrary to appearances – she knows that this would be a catastrophic option economically and politically for her government and the UK state. It could hasten the possibility of the UK breaking up, and, with the demand for Scottish independence and talk of eventual unification of Ireland, this could turn into a full-blown constitutional crisis.
Assuming May’s election strategy works, we may hear less and less talk about a hard Brexit or ‘going over the cliff’ with no deal at all’
https://www.socialeurope.eu/2017/05/know-kind-brexit-theresa-may-really-wants/
Vive La France for electing Emmanuel Macron.
Wull
Thank you for that exceptional post. Couldn’t have put it better myself, frankly. 🙂
Robbo,
Me posh? lol. I come fae Dalmellington. I usually go in a run at weekends with my pal. He fills the cart. i get a few reduced items. I get most of my shopping at Lidl’s before we go to Sainsbury’s.
O/t and put in this older thread as new one very new! Panelbase politics polls, Lou’s of questions about shopping habits, then newspapers/magazines read, then onto politics, it came up with a preamble saying saying something like “it is thought than in an independent Scotland cost of living will be higher and jobs will be lost” then asked if there is an Indy ref tomorrow – how would you vote Yes/no
So that’s one way of keeping the Yes percentage down, I bet the data sets don’t show the statement that’s jobs will be lost and costs increase before they asked the question.
Wull @ 8.45
Fantastic post. Thanks for that.
‘Where I see it most in Scottish politics is in the SNP. It is also because of this, and not just because I am a life-long supporter of Scottish independence, that the SNP have my vote.’
Thats exactly where I am too.
Bugsbunny,
Dalmellington lmao I was raised there-well the posh part-Bellsbank a few moons ago!
Small world indeed. Jesus you’ll no be popular being proindy there.
The BBC are in that gulping, empty feeling of things gone wrong over their coverage of the French election.
So keen to see the French go for EU leave discussions with Le Penn after their endless promotion of Farage.
Now they have realised they are stuck on this island with the Farages and nobody else is coming along with them.
Slight correction to last post. The Latin term ‘Gaudium et Spes’, the name given to the document on Catholic social teaching published at the Second Vatican Council, in the 1960s, means ‘Joy and Hope’ (not ‘Peace and Joy’, as I said in the post). Just before the Council, Pope John XXIII published a different letter called ‘Pacem in Terris’, meaning ‘Peace on Earth’. This called on all people of good will to put an end to war.
Besides teaching on faith and personal morality, the (Roman) Catholic Church also has teaching on social issues, based on general principles. There is no claim to have the solution to every problem, and no specific plan as to go about it, because it is up to politicians, not the church, to set out detailed policies and proposals. The church encourages them to do so, while urging them to bear in mind basic principles to which all should adhere. The intention is for the good of all, for the whole of society, not just Catholics or Christians.
Some politicians, of all stripes – and not just politicians who happen to be Catholics – do read these documents, taking from them whatever they find helpful. I would be willing to wager that Alex Salmond has had more than a wee peak at them.
There are also politicians who happen to be Catholics, or who say they are, who seem to ignore that part of Catholic teaching altogether. And those who pick and choose from it whatever they want, whenever they want, taking whatever suits their purposes at one moment and at another moment leaving or contradicting what does not suit them. And you can find other politicians who have no connection to the Catholic Church, and have never read any of her documents, who nevertheless do do and say and support things that are very much in line with what the Church recommends. This is because a lot of the teaching on social or political matters is based on common sense, which is – precisely – common to a lot of people, irrespective of their faith or lack thereof.
There is plenty of similar teaching and plenty of like-minded proposals coming from loads of other bodies and organisations. Maybe that’s the beauty of politics. Folk often see it as divisive. But it can and should be a real force for good, bringing all kinds of people together. They unite in order to support and promote good causes, together, no matter what differences of opinion they may have on other issues.
And that includes overcoming dark forces in society that seek only to divide people against each other, and destroy.
Despite others who seem to be in constant divisive mood insulting them by calling them ‘separatists’, it is the SNP that most consistently aims at uniting people, mobilising them for the common good. Not only for Scotland’s sake, but England’s too. This can be seen in the way the SNP leadership, especially in comparison to their Labour and Conservative opponents, take great pains to avoid emotionally-charged insults, and divisive language.
That can be taken as a sign that the SNP are fundamentally on the side of the angels, at least for those of us who believe in angels. While their opponents – the real ‘separatists’, who seek to separate and divide people against each other – are not.
Those who don’t believe in angels will use other terminology … but, in practice, that will come down to the same thing. Without being over-simplistic about it, there is a battle between good and evil in the human heart. That battle does have its political manifestations, and we are all involved in it. If it is dangerous to identify your opponent as evil, and yourself as one of the self-appointed ‘righteous’, it was not a matter of moral indifference when ordinary Germans had to decide whether or not to support the Nazi Party. Ordinary Scots have to exercise moral discernment today, as well. And have to make moral choices every time they vote.
Politics are not a matter of moral indifference – to the contrary they are an ethical battleground We all have to be vigilant, so as to exercise our citizenship in the most responsible and moral manner possible.
Well said Wull.
Good post.
Robbo,
I’m from the posh bit as well, Bellsank. lol. We like our white wine spritzers there. Ok. Diamond White. I wonder if you remember auld Espie and his chopped pork. When i was 13 and doing science in Doon Academy I once told him if he cut that chopped pork any thinner he’d set off a chain reaction and blow up half of Scotland. He didn’t take that too well.
Cameron. Yes, Systemic/metaphorical.
Re. Macron. Don’t celebrate too much, as he is Blairite through and through. Best that can be said is that Le Pen didn’t win.The Frogs are about to see a version of what we endured here, with Lady Gaga and her “proudest achievement”. Tony Blair.
Re. French being Nazi’s. I’ve just returned from a couple of weeks up in the Alps on a working hol. I spend a fair bit of time there.
Le Pens people are mainly rural, and sorry to spoil a few pre-conceived ideas, but generally they’re not even close to being fully fledged Nazi’s.
France is a class based system, whatever they say about ‘Liberte Egalite Fraternite’. Also, it’s very like here, pre- Thatcher.
The split is; Those old families who have always (relatively) held power (sound familiar?),Le Bourgeois (useful idiots), the native (again relatively) ‘peasant’ workers, and at the bottom the inhabitants of le banlieue. Not exclusively, but overwhelmingly incomers from the Mahgreb. Tunisia in particular. I’ve worked alongside a few of these guys, and believe me they will never belong. And they know it.
So when you relate voting le Pen to being Nazi, consider firstly what they are voting against. Globalism, meritocracy, and Neo-liberalism, run rampant.
Capella says:
7 May, 2017 at 1:28 pm
Apparently, Theresa May is a Catholic. Will the OO be demanding she stand down in favour of a Protestant?
Catholic means universal.
There are several Catholic Churches. I belong to the Roman persuasion. The Russian and Greek Orthodox Churches are Catholic , the Church of Alexandria, who tell the rest of us when Easter is, is also a catholic church. All these churches have the same theology, believes and teachings as does the Anglican Church, which some call the Church in England as it is not a reformist church but still protests against Rome.
You could say that the queen is catholic protestant as is Theresa May. Henry VIII made the monarchy the head of the church in England instead of the pope, not very much else changed.Protestant is not a religion but a political stance against the authority of the pope.
I attended a Sunday service at a Church of Scotland due to a friends child being Christened and was left rather confused myself. It wasn’t the union flags adorning the walls but the recital of the Apostles Creed which is also recited in the catholic church and within the creed is the following line, ” I believe in one holy catholic apostolic church”.
This is all just as mental as the Sheiits and sunnis.
If Kevin Bridges is right and we are in an empty, when the big man comes back he’s no gonny be best pleased.
Wer aw Jock Tamsons bairns
@ Robbo
I don’t live in Ayr either. I used to go there fairly frequently, though, and got into the habit of going to Sainsbury’s for a few organic items. Now my other reasons no longer exist, I go far less often – hence my not noticing the departure of Jeff.
(I am probably a bit posh, though – through accident of birth rather than choice – I try to counteract it with eccentricity.)
@ Wull
Just seen your posts, doff my cap sir
“They are not for turning, no matter what.”
What a load of shite.
Thank you kindly for your supportive comments Meg merrilees (at 9.10 p.m.), CameronB Brodie (at 9.23) and Glamaig (at 9.32).
Meg, I agree with you entirely about the Tories taking over FMQ’s and turning it into a mini-version of Westminster. This was not what was ever intended, and it puts a lot of people off.
According to my memory, when Holyrood was first set up, we were promised a different style of politics from Westminster by all the parties. The Chamber was even designed in its semi-circular form to avoid this kind of thing. The idea was to put an end to the confrontational style of Westminster, which has two lines of opponents facing and braying at each other.
A bit like the line-up for the kick-off at an American football game. The whole point of the exercise being so that everyone forms two teams which continually bash into each other.
In the House of Commons, according to what I read somewhere, the table in the middle separating the two front-benches was originally put there so that there would be a distance of two swords’ length between them. Then, when the argument (i.e. the shouting match) became so heated that each drew his sword against his opposite number, the two swords could not quite reach each other, and no blows could be struck.
It would therefore go no further than that, and no actual blood would be spilled. Which, presumably, did not mean that the shouting match would not continue …
Why has Holyrood reverted to this totally unhelpful style, even though the architecture of the place goes all against it?
I don’t think it’s just the Tories who deliberately made it go that way; Labour were at it too, maybe even before the Tories. I agree with you that the Presiding Officer has much to do with it too, since he has the power to stop it, and chooses not to do so.
There may, however, also be another factor. Not only the design of the Chamber but the Voting System were intended to make Holyrood a modern, European-style parliament. It was to be more representative than Westminster’s First past the Post system, and it was supposed to produce greater ‘consensus’ politics, with coalitions and alliances being the order of the day.
The idea behind Holyrood was therefore totally different from the binary Westminster assumption according to which there were only really two players in the game: Her Majesty’s government (Party of government) and the ‘loyal opposition’ to that government (the other Party). Hence the confrontational style which is inherent to Westminster, and clearly portrayed in the seating arrangements of the Chamber.
The SNP outdid the architects of the Holyrood Chamber and undermined the voting system that was designed to prevent them (the SNP) from ever having any real power. They became the Party of Government all on their own, without any need of a coalition, and this caused the others to revert to Westminster style behaviour. They suddenly – red and blue Tory combined – became a united opposition, whose sole function was to oppose the SNP at every turn.
This reversion to childish Westminster behaviour was logically consistent with the underlying intentions of those who designed Holyrood. I do not mean by that the Catalan architect who did the physical plan, but the likes of Donald Dewar and Co. who drew up the ‘political design’ of Holyrood.
If I remember rightly, the devolution arrangement was going to become the settled will of the Scottish people and stop the SNP, and the independence movement, in their tracks – once and for all.
Despite the involvement of others of a very different mind-set, this is what the real architects of Holyrood were in fact designing. To put it simply, this was their intention: kill off the SNP and bury Scottish independence stone dead. Holyrood was designed for that specific purpose. At least in the minds of its political designers.
Seldom can there have been such a total miscalculation.
Despite the physical architecture of the building being totally against it, we are now in a binary, Westminster-style system of politics. The SNP are the Party of government and the rest (barring the Greens) have become the Opposition to the Party of Government. It is just like the two-party politics of Westminster.
Although the Cons, Lab and the Lib-Dems remain theoretically distinct, in their main objective they are completely united. Instead of having a coalition government, as was originally intended, we now effectively have a ‘Coalition Opposition’.
The main objective – indeed the overriding obsession – is to thwart the SNP. Just as Dewar and Co. and the other main political designers intended. It has not worked out in the way that they foresaw, but the underlying objective has not. Stop at all costs, and by every means, the SNP!
That is what they designed Holyrood for, but it is working out differently. The one overriding common purpose of the Cons, Labours and the Lib-Dems is to find some way of forcing the unstoppable juggernaut which is the SNP (and independence) off the road, making it crash fatally and irretrievably once and for all, scattering the whole independence movement into everlasting oblivion with it.
It is the fact that the three ‘other’ Parties are united in this single objective that causes the braying, taunting and abysmally childish behaviour of Westminster to take over a Holyrood Chamber which is not suitable for such antics, and not designed for them. As Nicola Sturgeon rightly pointed out, not least in reference to the local government elections, it is paradoxically the Opposition Parties who are obsessed with the constitutional issue.
That overrides everything, blurring the distinction between them, and they become increasingly the ‘United Opposition’. So, instead of consensus politics, with coalitions and sometimes shifting alliances – where reasoned arguments and reasonable compromises prevail – we have instead a shouting match.
Just like Westminster.
The opposite of what we were originally promised. The opposite of the Holyrood Chamber’s physical design. And yet, at the same time, the continuation of what it was designed for by its political architects: the objective is still to halt the SNP in its tracks, and kill off the independence movement stone dead.
At least the SNP do not indulge in these childish antics at Holyrood, or not nearly so much as their opponents. I hope they continue to refrain, and do so even more than they already have done. By staying calm and reasonable, despite the silliness of the attacks on them and the behaviour of their opponents, they will keep pushing Scottish politics towards adulthood. And, gradually, but surely, they will increase the respect in which they are held.
Those who show respect, gain respect.
Those who don’t … well, respect will keep seeping away from them.
The SNP are on the right track; they just have to stick steadily to it … and not panic.
morality is unethical
ethics are immoral
if the did exist, they would be immutable and not subject to the changes in public opinion.
they are a deferential device used to bolster ones argument, ie, if I disagree with you, it isnt because of something as trivial as a difference of opinion, I am merely wrong, since you are not expressing your opinion but expressing an objective truth, as stated in various religious text.
this is the basis of all religious percecution. always has been.
Scientific truths and laws? due to the volume of work done nowadays, they have, what can best be described as a shelf life and are nothing more than consistent myths.
“Do you believe in ghosts?”
“No,”
“Why not?”
“Because they are unscientific.They contain no matter and have no energy and therefore, according to the laws of science, do not exist except in people’s minds.”
“Of course,the laws of science contain no matter and have no energy either and therefore do not exist except in people’s minds. It’s best to be completely scientific about the whole thing and refuse to believe in either ghosts or the laws of science. That way you’re safe. That doesn’t leave you very much to believe in, but that’s scientific too.”
r pirsig, ZATAOMM
Thank you also to Fran, at 11.09, for such kind words. Have to pack it in now – past my bed-time!
@ Wull – many thanks for your 2 excellent posts on this thread explaining Catholic social thought. I nearly missed them but decided to check back.
It is remarkable to be reminded of the moral choices we all have to make every day and specially when lending support to a political party. I used to vote Labour under the mistaken impression that they were committed to socialism and so to caring for all in society. I eventually realised that Blairite Labour are as neo-liberal as the Tories.
So now I want to see an independent Scotland free to develop the social-democratic policies I believe the majority want. Above all I want to see genuine democracy and end the travesty of Westminster manipulation we are currently subjected to.
So thanks again for your explanation and please do add whenever it seems necessary.
Wull
BLiS__d need to keep politics in Scotland tribal, as this feeds the misrepresentation of the SNP as being narrow nationalist who are dangerous to Scotland and certainly not worthy of consideration by progressive socialist. Of course, this is a flawed and hopeless strategy that suites the Tories perfectly.
schrodingers cat
What about a blend of science and philosophy?
https://pages.gseis.ucla.edu/faculty/kellner/Illumina%20Folder/kell5.htm
A post earlier by Maximilien Robespierre states that OO membership in Scotland is between 20-30K.
That’s 1% of our population, as hateful as they are they can’t do the Yes movement much damage but their image with the general public can certainly damage the Tories and the Better Together lot.
It just needs more more publicity than the Sunday Herald to get the message across, so that’s down to you and I.
This was a tactic by the Tories that will backfire I would think.
I’ll just lick my thumb and wipe it on the collar of my smokin’ jacket coz I saw Keith Emerson play “Promenade” from “Pictures at an Exhibition” on the organ of the Caird Hall in Dundee in 1970, at ELP’s first (of 3) gigs at that venue.
http://www.leisureandculturedundee.com/culture/caird-hall/organ
Couple of things I need to say guys.
I am an ex soldier. I was a member of the Orange Order. I remain a Rangers supporter.
I voted yes to independence. I vote SNP.
Please do not paint us all with the brush.
If we are going to win we need to engage with unionists. We need to convince them with reasoned arguments.
Some comments on here regarding Rangers supporters and members of the Orange Lodge will simply harden their position as unionists.
If the Orange Order emphasised the freedom to follow any religion as their aim that would still protect the faith they allegedly support.
It certainly doesn’t help that you get Popes blithely dismissing Protestantism, or at least some forms of it, as not being a religion.
Unfortunately even if they did you’d still have the hangers on who only celebrate violence.
I never quite understood the attitude even when a mixed marriage resulted in a conversion of a Catholic to Protestantism and consequently less potential Catholic children and more protestants. I thought coversion, without coercion, was one of the guiding principles of the Orange Order?
Are Andrew Neil and Donald Trump members of the Orange order?
@ Brian Doonthetoon – impressed! 🙂
The ulsterisation of Scottish politics is to some degree inevitable. The bear of British nationalism slumbered in the breast of many Scots until the indyref prodded it with a stick. But we should not step back from confronting it. In fact, it is high time to bring it out into the open and have people demonstrate just what being British means in the 21st century.
Robert Peffers,
When I was down in the Campsies, the swallows came back one year to find that a barn owl had moved into the old building where they used to nest.
Gong into my spare bedroom/sewing room one day I was surprised to find little lumps of mud all over my sowing table by the window. Looking up I saw that they had almost completed a new nest on top of the curtain pole, resting on the curtain top.
Well, of course, the window had to be left open for the duration and we managed to cohabit successfully. When they fledged I learnt that swallows come home to roost and in the evening there would be the delightful sight of 2 big and 3 little birds sitting in a row along the curtain pole twittering happily.
Terrible job cleaning swallow ‘mud’ of the wall and pole, it is a great building material.The following year, having taken a board off another old building for access, I hung a heavy lace curtain over the window!
Orri says:
8 May, 2017 at 7:39 am
If the Orange Order emphasised the freedom to follow any religion as their aim that would still protect the faith they allegedly support.
It certainly doesn’t help that you get Popes blithely dismissing Protestantism, or at least some forms of it, as not being a religion.
Hello, Orri. Thank you for your post. I am a bit bemused by your assumption that there are Popes – not one by several – ‘blithely dismissing Protestantism, or at least some forms of it, as not being a religion’. When making such statements some detail would help, just to back up what you are saying.
Which specific Popes did you have in mind? I can’t think of any who did or do what you say they so ‘blithely’ do? It would help if you could name the offending, and give the relevant quotations, rather than making unsubstantiated statements.
And which particular ‘forms’ of Protestantism were they so blithely ‘dismissing’? Again, at least one quote would be illuminating, but I don’t think you’ll find one. And you really need a lot more than one, because you make it sound as if this is the habitual style of ‘Popes’.
Of course, you could do some research, and say what actual Popes actually do say about Protestant Christians, or Protestant churches and communities. There is an enormous literature on this, and frequent statements, none of which – as far as I know – go in the line that you are suggesting.
You could have a look at the Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism, for start, published round about 1965 and known in Latin as ‘Unitatis Redintegratio’. Or Pope John Paul II’s letter on ecumenism called ‘Ut Unum Sint’, which means ‘that they [those who seek to follow Christ] may be one’, which is a quotation from John’s Gospel.
Or just type PCPCU into Google, and it will take you to the website of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. That’s the office in (that terrible place!) Rome (but you should try a visit – it’s no that bad!) for doing just that, promoting unity among Christians.
That office was originally set up by Pope John XXIII as the ‘Secretariat for Christian Unity’ round about 1960, and has continued, with a change of name, ever since. The reason I direct you to their website is because you’ll find there all the statements recent Popes have ever made about other Christians and churches that are not part of the Roman Catholic Church.
And you’ll also see all the dialogues that the dreaded Rome is involved in with other Christian bodies, including Lutherans and Reformed and Methodists and Anglicans and Baptists and so on.
Also have a look at all the back numbers of the newsletter of the PCPCU, which you’ll find on their website under the tag ‘Information Service’. I think you’ll find all the numbers are there, from the 1960s through to today, and every number quotations the Popes have made about other Christians or other Churches down the years. Just the job for you.
When you have waded through all that – I have to warn you, it will take you some time, because it’s a pretty massive amount of documentation – you’ll no doubt have an armoury of ‘Quotes from Popes’ demonstrating your point that they ‘blithely’ – and, presumably, habitually – go around rubbishing Protestantism generally, or at least certain ‘forms’ of it. Or will you?
Anyway, please don’t hesitate to let us know.
Seriously, I do wish you well in your research. It might open your eyes to a few things. I mean that, because it is what is needed, for all of us.
We all hear things said about other people, including public figures – whether they are Popes or politicians or whoever – and, as Wings over Scotland has continually demonstrated, many of the things that are said are simply untrue. Before repeating them, or spreading such ‘false news’, we should really check these things out.
And the great thing is that, nowadays, we can.
The internet and social media are also full of lies, because anyone can use them for any purpose they want. But there are also sound ways to use these modern media to uncover the lie, and expose it. We do have the means to get to the truth at our finger-tips. Literally: a couple of flicks in the right direction and we can get access to the information we need to keep us right.
And also, it has to be said, not just to confirm our own prejudices and assumptions (mine included, obviously), but to put them in question. Not by replacing them with another set of insufficiently examined prejudices or assumptions, but by checking things out, and putting them to the test. This, to me, is the way forward for all of us. I have often discovered that my own immediate opinion or reaction to something was ill-informed, or downright mistaken.
We all need correctives to our own biases, and that is an ongoing process. An unending one really. We need to check out whether what we are saying or thinking is really true or not, so as not to repeat things that are incorrect. So as not to be a propagator, in our own small way, of ‘fake news’. That’s the challenge: we progress by discovering mistakes we are making, and correcting ourselves.
The unexamined life is not worth living. It doesn’t matter where we start from, we all have a journey to make. To get more and more truthful, so that our opinions and actions are more based on reality, and less on unexamined assumptions.
All the best, Orri. I am not sure if you’ll see this since the post is pretty much closed now. Whether you do or not, please believe me, I mean no harm by saying the above. And I do understand where you are coming from, and recognise that there is no ill intent at all on your part … Wishing you the very best …..
Rookiescot says:
8 May, 2017 at 4:44 am
Couple of things I need to say guys.
I am an ex soldier. I was a member of the Orange Order. I remain a Rangers supporter.
I voted yes to independence. I vote SNP.
Please do not paint us all with the brush.
If we are going to win we need to engage with unionists. We need to convince them with reasoned arguments.
Some comments on here regarding Rangers supporters and members of the Orange Lodge will simply harden their position as unionists.
Thank you for your post, Rookiescot. I just wanted to say that I very much agree with you.
We all come from starting-points, and we all inherit different beliefs from our background. And we all develop. It is that openness to ongoing development in our understanding of things that is important, and it requires a basic attitude of openness to other people. So that they can help to correct us where it turns out we are mistaken in our perceptions, and so that we might sometimes be able to do the same kind of thing for them.
As you say, we should not stereotype people. Putting them in a frame – a ‘box’ – that we made for them, and never allowing them to escape from that ‘box’. Moreover, putting a whole section of the community in that same ‘box’ that we made for them, including people we’ve never even met, and do not know.
We all need to go a bit beyond our own built-in prejudices, whatever we are. And respect that other people are also journeying, and somehow changing. Some quickly, others more slowly … it’s not for me to dictate the speed, and I have to respect that.
No one stays the same all his life. As someone said, to live is to change … and, wehrebr we start from, we can all change for the better. And will do so, if we want …
All the best, Rookiescot … and thank you.
@ Wull – another two excellent posts. It’s quite an education and very thought provoking. With the subject of this post being sectarian prejudice – more thought and understanding is certainly welcome. You clearly have a wealth of knowledge and understanding. I appreciate the fact that you have taken so much time to explain the approach of the Catholic church.
A perfect gift to the independence movement! Unionists of all secondary labels should not be allowed to get away with this repellent connexion. The lessons of Ireland and India are clear. The Brits play very dirty.
Many thanks, Capella, for the kind response. I am glad you saw the two posts – I thought I was altogether too late with them. All the best.