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Wings Over Scotland

A pro journalism tip

Posted on May 02, 2014 by

As people who commission opinion polls occasionally, a thing that puzzles us is why other people who do it ask questions and then don’t talk about the results.

Some polls are done with the intention of being for private consumption only (this is particularly true when they’re commissioned by one side or the other in a debate, rather than by a notionally-impartial newspaper or the pollster themselves), and at other times results will be kept private because the results are unfavourable to the people who commissioned them.

(For the avoidance of doubt, we’ve never withheld any results for that reason.)


But at other times, results will be published but never discussed. Which is why, whenever a poll’s just come out these days, we get ourselves straight over to the polling company’s website and see what’s been left out.

This week’s big poll was the one commissioned by Channel 4 and carried out by YouGov, which showed that company’s closest set of figures for the independence question yet. (Amusingly spun by the Daily Mail as a “surge” towards No.) The broadcaster did a six-minute segment on its news programme, but didn’t mention several of the findings either in that or on the report on its website.

And when we checked up with YouGov, what we found explained why nobody should expect the “Better Together” campaign to get more positive any time soon.


Because what the poll found, in a nutshell, was that the No camp’s scaremongering was largely working. Or to be more precise, it was working on the people who were already planning to vote No, and that’s all it’s designed to do.

We’ve documented at length on this site that the main “Better Together” strategy regarding debates is not to have them. Last night’s big event in Glasgow was a case in point, with the organisers only managing to secure some No representatives at the very last minute, none of them from the official No campaign.

Alistair Darling and Blair McDougall appear to have abandoned any hope of persuading anyone to their side, and are instead counting on simply clinging onto the majority that they started with by terrifying it out of changing its mind, a tactic commonly described in a military context as “what we have we hold”.

So the poll tells us that while only 38% of people believe George Osborne and Ed Balls’ dire threats to refuse an independent Scotland a currency union, a whopping 61% of No voters swallow it.

More astonishingly, 57% of No voters actually believe that an independent Scotland would be thrown out of the EU – a view that almost no Unionist politician is prepared to state in public, and which some of them openly decry as ridiculous, but which has somehow found its way into the mind of a large slice of the public.

67% of No voters think Scotland wouldn’t be able to afford state pensions at the current level, even though Scotland currently spends LESS of its budget on pensions than the rest of the UK does. And 68% of them believe that major employers and businesses would leave an independent Scotland.

It’s as clear as day from the poll’s findings that No voters are frightened. They’re not voting No because they love the UK, they’re voting No because they think they’ll lose their jobs and their pensions and their money. Without those fears it would only take a tenth of No voters to change sides for Yes to win, and that’s a narrow margin of error.

So whatever they say in public, “Better Together” will keep up a relentless torrent of scaremongering from now until September, because they can’t afford not to. Almost every time there’s a debate there’s a swing to Yes, so they know they can’t win on the arguments. Project Fear is all they have.

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    305 to “A pro journalism tip”

    1. john allan says:

      And we shall be about our work talking expalning meeting converting.

    2. Arbroath 1320 says:

      So we have now reached the tipping point in the referendum debate where the NO campaign have all but given up on convincing anyone to vote NO. They are purely concerned with not losing any of their NO supporters to YES.

      I think this is the point where we can all now start saying a bit more loudly that we have won the debate because once one side gives up, as the NO side have, on trying to win over any more supporters you know they have fired ALL their ammunition and there is nothing left in the ammo box.

      I know we’ll still have to endure the dirty tricks department but that is obviously under direct control of Number 10 and not under any sort of control from Better Together HQ. As such it will be that much easier to defeat.

    3. Ian Brotherhood says:

      We have to reach out to these frightened people – one way is to use our real names in these comment threads.

      It’s not practical for everyone, but please, if you can, do it – the ‘Cybernat’ smear only works when we can be painted as scary anonymous basement-dwellers.

    4. haartime says:

      Would like to hear Scottish Skier’s take on these interesting findings.

      Think his gist is that No has a very soft underbelly and indeed this could be showing itself with the static yes vote but declining no lead.

      So if the above figures are accurate about 30% of the no vote might shift to undecided then yes with just the stalwarts remaining solidly no.

    5. G H Graham says:

      It explains why no one, and I mean no one, has been able to offer me or anyone I know, a simple, unequivocal, unarguable, positive case for remaining in the union.

      There isn’t one.

      So if you can’t come up with anything positive, all you have left, is negativity, scaremongering & a campaign of doom & fear.

      By the way, has anyone heard from Alistair Darling recently?

    6. Jason F says:

      This proves the Yes campaign is doing the right thing; keep positive and keep engaging people. Trying to frightening people away from No would backfire – those who are scared by both sides would stick with what appears to be the status quo.

    7. Andrew Morton says:

      @Ian Brotherhood 5:22 pm

      Hear, hear Ian. I used to post on the Scotsman as andygm which was my old office log on if when I worked at Aviva. When the Indyref came along I decided that I should come out as myself (don’t tell the wife). So now I post as Andrew Morton pretty much everywhere. It would be good if more of us did that.

    8. Jason F says:

      Something else that’s going to continue is the BBC’s slanted coverage – in fact, it’ll probably get worse; the BBC can only realistically be punished by Westminster, so they can break every rule in the(ir own) book as long as it’s seen to help No.

    9. Roboscot says:

      Those figures mean 39% of No voters aren’t taken in by the currency threat, 43% don’t believe we would be thrown out of the EU, 33% believe we could afford the current state pension, and 32% don’t believe major employers and businesses would leave Scotland. That’s a substantial percentage of No voters not believing the scaremongering. The question is: are these ‘soft’ No voters or people who are voting No despite the possibilities of independence?

    10. fairiefromtheearth says:

      Arbroath 1320 the thing is they have been firing blanks from the start and when you take cover and they keep shooting blanks its still scarey,but thankfull we have people who have walked into the hail of blanks and showed what their made of,people are waking up every day and these polls well they aint polling poor people yes is at 60% right now and the only way is up.

    11. Chris Cairns says:

      I’ve only done a wee bit of door-to-door canvassing but that’s been enough to give me a great deal more … respect is too strong a word … understanding of the Project Fear tactic. Of the committed No voters I’ve encountered, the vast majority are reluctant No voters. Their heart tells them to vote Yes but their head (the bit that has read and believed the scare stories) says it’s a bad idea.
      I tell you, if it’s a Yes vote it really will be Scotland the Brave.

    12. fairiefromtheearth says:

      When you coming back to Scotland Rev we need your soul here?

    13. Andra Murray says:

    14. Arbroath 1320 says:

      fairiefromtheearth says:

      Arbroath 1320 the thing is they have been firing blanks from the start and when you take cover and they keep shooting blanks its still scarey,but thankfull we have people who have walked into the hail of blanks and showed what their made of,people are waking up every day and these polls well they aint polling poor people yes is at 60% right now and the only way is up.

      I wholly agree with you on this ffte, everything that has ever been said by the NO side has been shot down in flames within 24 hours, and in a lot of cases within a couple of hours. 😛

      We have our leaders leading the way through all the blank shell fire and many many more are now taking the walk through the blank fire as well. Their game is up. They know it and are desperate to stop the few supporters they have left from finding this out. 🙂

    15. Mary Bruce says:

      Ironically it’s the people who are most loyal to the British State who are the ones being scared witless. All those poor old ladies being terrorised by project fear because they rely on the bbc for their information.

      It’s like the way the energy companies and banks rip off their most loyal customers because they are the ones least likely to move to another provider.

      Britain treats it’s own citizens like crap, it really does.

    16. John Sellars says:

      Your work is superb Stuart. Why does nobody seem to be able to do this investigation and analysis?

      If we get a trusted Public Sector Broadcaster actually serving us, we want you on the team (and by ‘we’, I mean ‘I’).

    17. John Sellars says:

      I meant ….nobody else…

    18. galamcennalath says:

      Project Fear being targeted specifically at Nos ….. That does make sense. It was probably always going to be BT’s best and only strategy.

      Where is fails, is a percentage of Nos might be offended by the miserableness of it all, even when scared, they must also find it nauseating! Some may switch sides, or simply switch off and not vote.

      What the Yougov figures do seem show is No down 1%. Maybe it’s error, maybe it’s real.

    19. bookie from hell says:

      HQ is The Scotsman


    20. Proud Cybernat says:

      I think too that there is an element of Britnat vote No come what may and these results are simply confirmation bias. of those No voters. They are agreeing with it because they fully intend to vote No and simply agreeing with it as an excuse to vote ‘No’. In short–these are the diehards whose minds will never be changed. And Yes–there are similar types on the YES side of the debate.

    21. Jimsie says:

      Mary Bruce & galamcennalath.

      People who are frightened never achieve anything. We must use a bit of applied psychology to help them overcome their fears.

    22. Simon Chadwick says:

      I was reading this story on the Courier about the Cupar farmers market:

      Actually I was looking for info on the roadworks, but the story was kind of intruiging, and then the comments underneath were fascinating – some real trenchant Nos fearing for their jobs, fearing for their benefits and pensions.

      PS great point about real names Ian – I think this is a general thing that can help internet debate but there is a lot of inertia with people investing in their screen name. It’s kind of liberating though putting your real name up there and it also I think makes you consider what you write which has to be good for the level of debate?

    23. Just want to give a MASSIVE thanks, love and respect to all here at Wings who have helped raise funds for our short film, ‘Autumn Leaves’. We have now reached more than half of our £1500 budget target. Nice one guys!!

      To those who may be interested, it is a comedy/drama set on the night of the referendum and cast includes Sean Scanlon (Para Handy), Barbara Rafferty (Rab C. & Hamish MacBeth) and Carmen Pieraccini (River City).

      You can read all about it here:

      Shout out to Rev Stu for his continued support.

    24. Mat says:

      Brand building 101.

      Make sure you buy other important tld’s to avoid brand pollution or ‘brand name X stinks’ type of sites.

      So, from a PR background, money no object, you’d surely make sure wouldn’t fall into rodent territory, yes?



    25. Alex Clark says:

      I’ve been outed by the Yes campaign and Ian Brotherhood.

      I am no longer Thepnr on here but Alex Clark, an ordinary Scot that intends to vote Yes and wants to encourage others to join me.

      I am am not ashamed of my political beliefs or of being a supporter of Independence. I couldn’t care less about being labelled as a Cybernat.

      Because my only wish is to provide factual information to those that may listen so as they may make an informed decision come the referendum.

    26. Calgacus says:

      I have just seen the SNP party political broadcast, positive and inspiring.

      An antidote to the poison spread by project fear

    27. J Goss says:

      It’s clear that the usual tactics are being used- smear, lie, obfuscate and wedge. The one I’m worried about is the attempt to create a scary radicalized (and suspiciously well funded) ‘enemy within wing’, such as the mysterious no borders group, or window smashers for a free scotland or whatever other false flag outfit they see fit to create/fund/use to discredit the idea of independence through targeted destructive behaviour. We are, after all, dealing with the people who invented divide and conquer.

    28. M4rkyboy says:

      You hear this speaking to people all the time.
      Basically the No vote is soft.
      Just about everyone you ask says ‘Aye,i want Scotland to be Independent,it’s just that i don’t think it’s the right time or that we can afford it’.
      There is a latent desire amongst the majority for an Independent Scotland that has had to be suppressed by the British state and they have used fear to suppress it.
      What it then comes down to is trust.
      You need to trust the British state or the Scottish Govt and again,this is something the propagandists have tried to undermine with their attacks on the FM.

    29. galamcennalath says:

      .com LOL

    30. Jason F says:

      It’s this ‘frightened’ section of No voters that needs to be focussed on; they’re the ones who can be shown what they’d be missing out on; again, it shows that Yes’ plan is the right one.

    31. HandandShrimp says:

      People don’t like be frightened and cowed into choices. One thing that Yes can do is highlight how twisted the No position is and how untrustworthy these people are.

      They might not have the courage to vote Yes but if they just stayed their hand (and stayed at home) then we will have enough votes to carry this.

    32. dadsarmy says:

      Just having talked with my no-voting daughter, the reasons are that things are going OK at the moment, and she doesn’t want change that could risk that. She has a mortgage and is worried that if interest rates went up she wouldn’t be able to afford it and would have to give up the flat. She also would not want to pay foreign currency transaction charges of 2.75% for stuff she bought over the internet.

      She thinks both sides scaremonger, hates scaremongering and doesn’t trust either campaign. She would have like to see some impartial findings and commentary but realises that people are bound to be biased. She would be more open if the YES campaign (including SNP) were more honest and rather than brushing off any genuine concern as “that’ll be OK on the night”, admitted that there were potential problems, uncertainties, downsides. Exactly what I’ve been saying for ages – the Truth, the Whole Truth, and Nothing but the Truth.

      She would be afraid if she was £500 a year worse, but wouldn’t vote YES to be £500 a year better off. She would be very unlikely to be able to change her mind in September, but thinks a lot of people will decide the last week.

      I have asked a few people why they would vote NO, and I think this is fairly typical, that people are surviving, managing, and don’t want change to upset the apple cart.

    33. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @Andy Murray

      Are you still scunnered?

    34. Jason F says:

      HandandShrimp 6:46 pm

      Good point about highlighting the No position, but still worth encouraging everyone to vote Yes – they might still do it, and if not, they at least might not want to vote No.

    35. ronnie anderson says:

      Ah see JoLO visited Kelvin College beauty saloon,but nae

      luck in gettin her makeup done.

      They did’nt have any Dulux eggshell.

    36. a2 says:

      “We have to reach out to these frightened people – one way is to use our real names in these comment threads.”

      unfortunately that’s not an option for me right now 🙁

    37. msean says:

      “Hold what we have” is going to be difficult to do for such a long period.

      Maybe I’m just suspicious,but they must surely have something better than that lined up,like turning car parks into thousands of permanent jobs without stealing them from workers elsewhere or a magic spell or something.

    38. goldenayr says:


      It’s called the “I’m alright Jack” syndrome.

      Perhaps if she was made aware of the poverty and deprivation which surround her.It might awaken her empathic responses to discovering more about what she thinks is “OK”.

    39. benarmine says:

      And another fear-building exercise on Reporting Scotland with Eleanor Bradford on care home costs and a sneaky implication that the Scottish Government were responsible for the Edinburgh trams mismanagement.

    40. Jim Marshall says:

      Ian Brotherhood 5.22

      I am persuaded by your argument Ian therefore I have dropped Jimsie and will use my Sunday name.

    41. call me dave says:

      @ronnie anderson

      Aye right. Kelvin? Did he no invent the fridge & freezer.

      Lamont would fit in fine there, she’s ‘absolute zero’ if you get my drift. 😉

    42. HandandShrimp says:

      Eleanor Bradford is the archetypal Jeremiah. That might just be her nature though. I can’t recall what she was like pre 2007 when Labour were screwing up a lot of the running of the NHS…people seem to have forgotten the fankle they got themselves into and why it was one of the reasons they got the heave ho.

    43. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @a2 –

      Understood, totally.

      Another good (and very selfish) reason to use real names is safety in numbers – if they hurt one of us, they hurt all, and they’re much less likely to get dirty with upfront ‘real’ people.

      And besides – so much of the shameless rubbish these UKOKers put their name to is 100% provable lies, but it doesn’t stop them. They’re the ones who should be hiding.

    44. Alex Smith says:

      In agreement with Ian Brotherhood- “Annibale” is going back in the box, and I’ll be posting as me from now on!

    45. Doug Daniel says:

      Chris Cairns: “Of the committed No voters I’ve encountered, the vast majority are reluctant No voters. Their heart tells them to vote Yes but their head (the bit that has read and believed the scare stories) says it’s a bad idea.”

      Exactly. The referendum is asking “SHOULD Scotland be an independent country?”, but many people are actually asking themselves “COULD Scotland be an independent country?” There is a majority in Scotland for the first question – I am in absolutely no doubt about that – but we actually need a majority for the SECOND question.

      “Undecided” essentially means “I would like to vote Yes, but I don’t know if it would be the right thing to do.” We need to convince them that it would be. Once people know we CAN do it, they quickly convert to a Yes.

      Roboscot: “That’s a substantial percentage of No voters not believing the scaremongering. The question is: are these ‘soft’ No voters or people who are voting No despite the possibilities of independence?”

      Those are your dyed-in-the-wool Britnats. They don’t care if independence would be better, because the British state is too ingrained into their identity. They will never be convinced of the need for a Yes vote.

    46. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ Alex Clark – Ex thepnr, did you get delivery of F**K IT?

    47. Anne says:

      In talking to people it has become clear to me that there is a thirst for information. Yet where I think the No campaign is still winning is in promoting the idea of uncertainty (when they are not asserting that things will be unremittingly awful in iScotland). But of course, once we start thinking about it, there is huge uncertainty in remaining part of the Union. The EU referendum is one obvious example, threats to the Barnett formula and forced changes to higher education and the NHS less obvious ones. Although it would be a big mistake for the Yes campaign to try to scare people it needs to emphasize the uncertainty and the risks involved in voting No, and we need to stress this in our conversations, particularly with those people still on the fence.

    48. RogueCoder says:

      Annnnnd… we’re back

      @Rev, I’m serious about the pro-bono thing. I can work on an offline copy of WoS and make it a lot more resilient to attack.

    49. jon esquierdo says:

      Has Alastair Darling been sent to a desert island?

    50. Jim Marshall says:

      jon asquierdo.

      Harris/Lewis is an island but not deserted !

    51. Jim Thomson says:

      @a2 6:52.

      c’mon Johann, you know you want to [VBG]

      seriously though, I also understand your reluctance. I’ve just changed my own truncated tag to the fullname [damn you Mr Brotherhood – *shakes virtual fist*]

    52. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      Looks like the Vote No Borders guy(s) wiped all comments from their website.
      No comments allowed at the moment.

    53. dadsarmy says:


      The phrase “I’m alright Jack” implies that the people are doing well, and don’t care about anyone else. It’s a form of typecasting that is, basically, antagonistic not empathic. It raises this cosy picture of people who take two or three foreign holidays a year, change the two cars every 3 years and don’t care about other people.

      The reality is that my daughter and fiance saved for a deposit and managed to squeeze the last few pence out of bank of mum and dad for the deposit which was 10% not the budgetted 5%, a mum and dad who are themselves on just about “I’m alright Jack” after 6 years hard recession, worked the finances out carefully, having worked hard and continuing to work hard, work to a weekly food budget, and won’t be taking a holiday until their wedding abroad next year which saves money.

      The reality is that last year saw the largest number of Bankruptcies both personal and business, and there are expected to be a lot more this year, even as apparently we come out of the recession. The reality is that many of the “I’m alright Jack” people look at homelessness and foodbanks, and think “there but for the grace of God, go I”.

    54. HandandShrimp says:


      One thing I have found slightly unsettling in the press is the reference to the Moodies ratings where it was suggested that Scotland would have a similar rating to Botswana. Botswana has a good rating. A2 Prime investment grade. It struck me a little racist, as if readers would not consider that an African country could have a good rating and therefore the comparison would be construed negatively.

      I think some of the Better Together types might be joining the UKIP Bongo Bongo Land way of thinking. A tad disappointing and if I was from Botswana I might be a little peeved.

    55. orri says:

      Just tried to use my own name and it wouldn’t post. The complication here is that not everyone will believe the same “facts”. This can be good or bad depending on the combination. It gives the possibility that their confidence in the whole gamut of negativity has one or more weaknesses where they’re thinking “hang on a moment”. Rather than the hoped for effect of a single doubt being enough the opposite might be true.

    56. Robert Bryce says:

      Ok Ian you’ve outed me now as well.

      I feel liberated now and we haven’t even had a yes vote yet!

    57. call me dave says:

      I dropped them a line through the contact me link. Asking why no comments etc etc.

      Received reply see below.

      David —
      Thank you for contacting us.
      A member of the team will be in touch as soon as possible.
      Vote No Borders

      This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Vote No Borders Campaign. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this Email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this Email is strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message from your E-mail system. All electronic transmissions to and from Vote No Borders Campaign are recorded and may be monitored.

    58. Alex Clark says:

      @Archie [not Erchie]

      Certainly did and I’m not yet half way through it. Something must have rubbed off without me even realising. 🙂

      To be honest I put it aside for Alan Sugar’s biography. “F**k It” is a book that might take a wee bit of time to digest and I’m naturally sceptical. Maybe I didn’t need it? Have usually said F**k It my entire life.

    59. scottish_skier says:

      A tad disappointing and if I was from Botswana I might be a little peeved.

      Being derogatory about other countries is standard practice for British nationalists. From Montenegro to Greece to Ireland and the ‘arc of insolvency’.

      Maybe a representative from the Botswana embassy can be asked for an opinion.

    60. galamcennalath says:

      No one think

      is very funny?

    61. rab_the_doubter says:

      A wee glimpse into our possible (definite) future:

      I’m not a big fan of sweary words on public forums, but in the interests of democracy, would all you undercover cops and spooks stalking this and every other indy site please f**k off, there’s nothing here for you and when we get our independence I sincerely hope you’ll be invited to account for your undemocratic behaviour.

    62. Jim Marshall says:

      jon esquierdo

      Apologies for mis-spelling your name earlier. Flipper has a holiday home on Harris and he was spotted there over a week ago, although he attended Margos memorial service in Edinburgh last week also.

    63. MajorBloodnok says:

      Dadsarmy said: The reality is that many of the “I’m alright Jack” people look at homelessness and foodbanks, and think “there but for the grace of God, go I”.

      And all they need is just a little nudge to realize that this is not the natural order of things (as the Establishment would have us believe) but the result of a combination of failed neo-con economic policies and the self-serving dead hand of the British Establishment.

      Just think, put a wee cross in pencil in the YES box and all that could change – in fact it’s changing already…

    64. Alba4Eva says:

      How is everyone managing to change their user names?

    65. Big Jock says:

      Rab not sure if you got the same thing.I posted and my post disappeared because it froze and then didn’t appear.What’s going on big brother..

    66. Stewart Glendinning says:

      I agree with Ian Brothehood! Therefore I will no longer post under “Doonfooter”. My name is Stewart Glendinning and I am voting Yes!

    67. jon esquierdo says:

      Jim Marshall can I please inform you that is my name . My father stood for the SNP in the eighties and still writes as the Laird in the newspapers. We are fourth and fifth generation spaniards.

    68. Caroline Corfield says:

      but the interest rates are going up, Mr. Carney said so, the markets expect them to go up in the spring of 2015 and in fact are murmuring already that the UK growth is so good they need to go up now ( see SE housing bubble).

      The austerity cuts are going to happen and they will affect the economy, taxation and cost of living, change is coming whether your daughter likes it or not.

      Ask her, wouldn’t she like to be a little bit more in charge of the changes?

      Whatever happens after independence, the problems and the good things, they will all be up to the Scottish electorate to deal with.

      If you take out a mortgage you must think about the future, you must think about interest rates going up, if you don’t then who do you expect to bail you out?

      I remember when interest rates briefly hit 15% under a Conservative government, ask her if she fancies that?

      A government few in Scotland voted for pursuing policies for the benefit of London, the City and the SE economy causing her hardship.

      Or would she prefer to make a couple of hard choices along with the rest of the Scottish electorate for her future?

    69. dadsarmy says:


      They did the same with Sterlingisation and Panama, and have even used the world “banana” about Panama.

      They rely on ingrained attitudes, attitudes from years and decades of programs, films and even comics on TV and radio, as well as the press. The idea is “Botswana” ignorant savages still trading with beads and reliant on Oxfam, “UK” spohisticated advanced civilised, rich.

    70. Jim Thomson says:

      @Alba4Eva you need to wait until the Rev changes a few things and releases your “new name” from moderation.

      It’ll be interesting to see if my longer moniker has been released yet. 🙂

    71. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood. Ah canny gie ma real name, the TV licencing are on ma trail & I dont pay council tax cause
      a live in a shed an it his’na goat an address. but am wie
      you on that.

    72. Richard Lucas says:

      Wouldn’t it be something if Vote No Borders was the Unionists last best shot are trying to win votes?

    73. Jim T says:

      @Alba4Eva 8:06

      takes a bit of time for Stu to do the admin 🙂

      Still waiting for my longer one to be “released”from moderation. Patience is a virtue 😉

    74. Marcia says:

      Scottish Skier

      Isn’t Botswana one of the successful countries in Africa even if it is one of the hottest?

      I saw this on the internet, a talk by Ricky Ross at the Dundee United Supporters Club.

    75. Big Jock says:

      I wonder how these undercover spooks reading this are going to stop people from speaking out against the British establishment.They control the MSM but not our minds.

    76. Mary Bruce says:

      Well done all you guys coming out tonight, good for all of you, much respect.

      But remember there are some of us who can’t or won’t use real names for lots of good reasons, like teachers who must remain neutral in their real lives. Others have young children who don’t want confronted by the Daily Mail door-steppers.

      I’m afraid I’m staying Mary Bruce for the moment, I’ve grown rather attached to her:

    77. Kev says:

      And just imagine where we’d be if we had a balanced state broadcaster giving out factually based positive headlines about a future independent Scotland every other day (or even every other week)? Ive found that most folk do want their country to run its own affairs but sadly even when I provide them with a ton of evidence which says it can, their opinion is so deep rooted that they just don’t believe it, I despair…

    78. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ Alex Clark – Funny you should say that but I put it aside as well as it got deeper into stuff I am sceptical about. However I will pick it up and read on. Initial chapters were quite good mind you.

    79. dadsarmy says:

      @MajorBloodnok and @Caroline
      In the case of my kids I wouldn’t even bother trying to persuade them, and if I was able I’d be obliged to kick their backsides as oft before and tell them to “have a mind of your own”.

      In fact when I’m talking with people, I listen to their reasons and just try to make them question themselves as to why they are a NO. Never tried to convince anyone to a YES, never will, and that is a strength in itself.

      What would be needed, perhaps, is a two-stage process where someone like me is sent in to the hard NOs, even the soft ones, just to try to help open the mind a bit. And then, later, along comes the full-blooded YES doorstepper to try to make the case.

      Ironically when talking to NOs, even though I’m a near 40 year Indy supporter, I can emphasise with them and even congratulate them on having made up their minds. As I say, I see that as a strength, but one which needs to be complemented by a “closer”. I’m the warmer 🙂

    80. Les Wilson says:

      O/T the wee ginger dug has been cleaning his hoose today, thought this was brilliant –

      “I spent this afternoon cleaning the toilet. Which isn’t that different from writing blog posts about Project Fear really.”

    81. Arbroath 1320 says:

      Richard Lucas says:

      Wouldn’t it be something if Vote No Borders was the Unionists last best shot are trying to win votes?

      Well if it is Richard they have just FAILED big time. I mean they open up their site to comments yesterday and within 24 hours they’ve shut it down to comments. It’s not as if there was any profanity in any of the comments just people asking “genuine” questions. 😉

      If they wanted to be taken seriously then I’m afraid they have just blown that big time, they are now just another joke site. 🙂

    82. Les Wilson says:

      Big Jock says:

      Well, they are certainly TRYING too!

    83. heedtracker says:

      So this poll shows NO voting is quite a lot about believing everything project fear says day in, day out. Come on its the BBC we’re talking about here. But the fact is that we all know people that have never voted but are certainly going to vote in YES in Sept and no one from any pollster company ever asks them anything.

      So for the first time ever, voting in Scotland actually matters. You cant frighten that away.

      I’m Joanna Lumley

    84. dadsarmy says:

      Some people can’t afford to reveal their real names. They might work for RBS, Tesco Bank, Standard Life, even BP or Shell (who are selling up their oild oilfieds anyway), and be afraid of indirect pressure to leave or reduced promotion chances.

      Others have their own business and know that they will lose customers, and I do mean, know. Or they don’t want pestering phone calls at 2 in the morning if they piss someone off. Some have already had that sort of thing, or been close to it, years ago in UseNet or even Message Boards.

      Not everyone has the luxury of being their own open personna.

    85. David says:

      New, improved, ThePNR, now with added Alex Clark!

      Washes your nation cleaner, removes ugly Westminster stains. 100% biodegradable. Safe for pets and children.

      Got a nasty BT smear you can’t shift? Just apply some Wings-approved fact-finding, and get rid of that stubborn tooweaktoopoortoostupid muck.

      (Warning: May not work on ermine robes and genetically-programmed items.)

      More seriously, well done to Alex, Jim M, Robert B, & anyone else who has switched to real-name mode. More power to your elbows!

    86. dadsarmy says:

      @Mary Bruce


    87. Indigo says:

      I love can’t believe they were so stupid as to leave the .com available to buy, perfect redirect

    88. Elizabeth Sutherland says:

      I don’t post very often but I do use my real name. I am real.

      What I have found out when I talk to undecided people, is that there is a fear of the Indy word. Some of my age group 55+ are quite rational and will open up as you find out what their qualms are.
      To cut it short I now use Home Rule instead of the Indy word, I get better results and more open questions. Results of 6 don’t knows so far, 3 yes 3 still to work on, plenty of time to win the argument.

    89. HandandShrimp says:


      Ooh that is clever 🙂

    90. Tam Jardine says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      You’ve ruined it for me – there was me about to switch to using Raoul instead of plain old Tam.

      I’d mibbe baulk at putting my full address down. Slightly odd when someone in the ‘real world’ recognises your posts as happened a couple of hours ago. Bottom line is that I am proud of everyone who makes a positive contribution to this site and proud of the wider movement. I firmly believe that many older people who will vote no are ashamed that so many younger people want sweeping changes. They see it as a failure of their generation. That, and the fear of God has been instilled in them.

      The media wants us all to be extremist maniacs and the cybernat term is perfectly derogatory for them. Trouble is, this side of the argument contains the best this country has to offer. Don’t be afraid of anything that is chucked at us in the coming months. For it is nothing compared to the disdain with which future generations and the international community will regard us.

      And for my friend who will be reading this: we’re winning this thing for our children, even though they do, in a sense destroy our lives for the first few years!


    91. heedtracker says:

      I don’t bother arguing with hard core NO voters but some are my family, inlaws etc. So if it comes up, I just listen and then ask if they could live in Scotland as a country and then change the subject to something funny, if only because they are voting no but we still you know, love each other as Scottish/English/Irish etc families and its hardly going to change these realities.

      I’m Baron Foulkes of Cumnock and Have One Yourself Barman.

    92. Patrick Roden says:

      Another way to look at these figures is to be encouraged that well over 30% of the No voters, don’t believe the scaremongering, so will be getting mightily pissed off at BT.

      Since a lot of evidence suggests the majority of DK’s leaning to Yes…

      And the Yes vote more likely to vote on the day than No.

      Every single poll now showing a trend for Yes.

      It’s all looking good for us and this explains the increasingly desperate tactics of the BT campaign.

      We are winning and they know this!

    93. Arbroath 1320 says:

      call me dave says:

      Was this on the BBC Scotland news?

      I’m not quite how to tell you this dave, but erm….NO it wasn’t. I’ll bet you were surprised by that answer. 😛

    94. Murray McCallum says:

      The key reasons a work colleague who was undecided but likely No but is now Yes minded were:

      1. White paper
      2. Endless negativity from No
      3. No longer viewed the No messages and figures as credible.

      As each week goes by he is more solid Yes.

    95. Walter Scott says:

      A long way back on these posts is a message from Ian Brotherhood. He says we posters for independence should use our real names. I entirely agree with him. Let the anti yessers hide behind false names and made up nom de guerre’s we should be more transparent. The media, the bt crowd inc Darling tar all who are against the union as Cybernats. It can be said as a snide description of genuine people who they are trying to besmirch. I’m not sure if it’s too late in the campaign to adopt this but it might be worth a try. P.S. This is my real name.

    96. handclapping says:

      To return to Stu’s piece the thing I noticed was that all the scares pressed the Tory’s buttons but never even made 50% with Labour. Do you think Better Together is a Labour front playing to a Tory game plan? Shurely shome mishtake.

    97. Theres a saying I have coined; you cannot preach, to the voluntarily ignorant.

      In many debates, you can take people to facts, with lots of evidence to prove your points and they will pass it off or make excuses not to read.

      One common one of late goes along the lines of “all the yes side have are links”

      Baffling, as at least they are presenting something to back up their words! Never yet seen a no voter present the same in any form.

      The other thing, sticking with the voluntarily ignorant is wanting a summarised answer, they don’t want to read up and verify anything. So you humour them and they dismiss immediately without testing or questioning your answer to prove its validity.

      After all this time, I have learnt that some people do not want to learn, and frankly I have better things to do with my time than try and force a horse to drink.

      I can only hope they see the light, and do not sell our futures down the river Thames. Or come independence do not fight the change.

    98. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      Maybe I am lucky but in the last 2 weeks I have had 7 Aberdeen Council tradesmen in my flat – Joiner, Plumber, Electrician, Vinyl floor layers and today a bathroom surveyor. They all clocked the big YES windae-hingin sticker on the kitchen window and totally agreed the way to go.

      So up yours Aberdeen City Councillor Willie Young. Your workforce know the truth. You are history.

    99. ronnie anderson says:

      Anybody ever thought that NoBordrers was just to get Email

      addys,IP addy.s,or is that ma paranioa kickin in.

    100. Nana Smith says:

      @ Walter Scott

      I’m proud to say I am Nana Smith!

    101. dadsarmy says:

      Mmm, I’m Blair MacDougall and I’m real sick of my job.

    102. kishorncommando says:

      @call me dave
      2 May, 2014 at 8:36 pm

      I work at Nigg, and we new nothing about this until today on the BBC website, not even a rumour, which is rare.

    103. Twenty14 says:

      Just seen an advert on bbc for a new totally unbiased bias show – blithering Referendum – they’re not even hiding it now

    104. call me dave says:


      Enjoyed that wee video at Dundee Utd for YES. Didn’t get a glimpse of big Brian though. Thanks.


      If it wasn’t why not? …Don’t answer me on that one, maybe cat stuck up tree story was a priority.

      This caught me on the VNB site so had a look for it.

    105. dadsarmy says:

      @kishorncommando I think there was something about it in the Herald a year ago.

    106. Lesley-Anne McLelland says:

      Like others I have been thinking about what Ian said.

      I’m sure he just got fed up guessing who we really were. 😉

      So despite my reservations, and many on here know I am not a stranger to reservations, here it is me in the flesh accompanied by my real name. 😛

      So I guess it’s a long and slow tearful goodbye to the name that served me for so long.

    107. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @ronnie anderson –

      It’s got to be a possibility – but even if that’s the purpose of it, and a good few of us have already posted there, would it put you off, or make you express yourself differently? I’m well past the point of caring any more – we’re on the right side here, and there’s nothing they can do to change that.

      BTW, I hope no-one thinks I’m belittling anyone who uses a handle. As I said in my first comment on this thread, it’s entirely understandable. The point was that we should use real names if we can. The other huge benefit is that when you meet fellow Wingers in real life, you don’t have to remember two names – I met many of y’all in Glasgow, but the names are all mixed-up in my heid.

    108. rab_the_doubter says:

      Wee pro journalism tip for Ian Hislop:
      Stop pretending you are anti establishment.

    109. Brian Doonthetoon says:




    110. kendomacaroonbar says:

      Apologies Stu for the effed up posts. probably in pre mod now.

    111. James S says:

      News released on a Friday before a bank holiday weekend at 18:44

      Why oh why!?

    112. kishorncommando says:

      dadsarmy says:
      2 May, 2014 at 9:05 pm
      Thanks, herald and the rest of MSM blag about it , but we, at the front line like to confirm when we see steel getting cut & welded.
      Ask Methil how they got on with SSE and renewables 1000’s of jobs promised there as well but …

    113. Jim Thomson says:

      @kishorncommando 9:00pm

      I hope they issue the piling crew with ear defenders! I was a young lad in my first job when the Nigg yard was being built. Had the pleasure of being on one of the piling crews for the quayside and some of the graving dock work. Now have persistent tinnitus which is a right bugger.

      @indigo 8:38pm
      Also impressed with the redirect of the domain. Nice.

    114. haud on the noo says:

      .com ya beezer. At pub else I would have done same…

      Incompetence beyond belief – are we to believe that some of these people run companies ?

    115. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ Elizabeth Sutherland 8:38pm – Thanks for your post and suggestion. I will try that on the 55+ here in my block of flats. Will let you know.

    116. caz-m says:

      Ronnie Anderson

      Vote No Borders need as many comments as they can get tae make the place look busy.

      Sinatra life story is on BBC 4, just in case you’re that way inclined.

    117. dadsarmy says:

      Anyway, from the overall misrepresentation of the Channel 4 poll as an “Upsurge for NO”, and even, and I do say even, from the Herald, totally blind to 51% being less than 52% in March, as “The campaign to keep Scotland in the UK appears to have gained support, with a new poll showing more than half of voters could reject independence”, it’s clear to me that we are on a cusp.

      Polls have been showing an almost constant trend to YES, and oddschecker home of punters has been showing an almost constant shortening of YES odds and drifting of NO. But oddschecker does go back a little, and perhaps and probably that’s what the current small change back the ways is about, it’ll bear watching. The difference on oddschecker between best and worst odds is very small both for YES and NO, perhaps that shows more money has been going on than usual.

      Some are expecting the polls to show dead level YES and NO in the next few weeks, and this is important. Personally I think polls do push the opinions a little. If one side is 20%, then it’s the realm of the extremists. if YES is 30% it’s the fanatics and those they’ve (we’ve) managed to con. If it’s 40% it’s still a majority for the Union. The current average is about 11% difference, i.e. nearly 45% YES, 55% NO.

      Getting very very close, and if NO can halt the trend and reverse it, perhaps they’ll win. If it can get over the line of 50% then we’re on the port tack and the wind in our sails, heading for home (slight pun on port!).

    118. Michael says:

      The pain from the thumbscrews has faded away now so I’ll follow up on Ian Brother (the Hood)’s “recommendation” and start using my real name.

      When I first started with the WOS thingy, I wanted to call myself Herman Göring but the girlfriend said, I’d just been on a diet and Göbbels might be more suitable. Anyway we decided upon “Mückenjäger” (Midgehunter). Amen.

    119. Tearlach says:

      @Arbroath1320 & @Callme dave

      Re the Nigg Announcemnt. It was on the BBC site unde the H&I section –

      However the BBC was not at the Press Launch and Q&A with the FM. STV, MFR the P&J, and the local weeklies were all there, but not the BBC. And no Scotsmans or Herald, even though the latters Highland reporter office overlooks the Nigg Yard.

    120. No criticism of anyone else, but I always use my birth name. It probably helps I’m retired, and not beholden to anybody.

    121. Alex Clark says:

      To any that are not comfortable about using your real names Yet (maybe) I fully understand. I actually feel a little bit naked without Thepnr persona.

      Using that moniker I could say almost anything without fear or ridicule in my “real life”. I intend to still say almost anything without fear though there may be a bit ridicule comes my way LOL.

      I posted a few weeks ago about getting your badges or yes stickers on the car to be more visible. How much more visible can you be than saying “This is me Alex Clark” “I support Yes”.

      I can also understand many reasons why it may not be sensible to reveal your identity on Wings or any other website where you are revealing your own political views. Teaching being an example so feel no pressure to do so as that would just be daft.

      I hope to start to see people whos name I might know start to appear here and then next day at work for example I can say “was that you posted on Wings last john king?”

      I feel confident that if anyone asks me that question that they will be Yes supporters already or desperate to be convinced to vote Yes. The others I don’t think would even dare ask, just look suspiciously. Nob Orders lol.

    122. Lesley-Anne McLelland says:

      I’m like you Alex, it still feels a wee bit strange seeing my real name at the top of my post instead of 1320 still like everything else I’ll get used to it I suppose. 😉

    123. alexicon says:

      To all those who encounter [soft] no voters who are feart, give them some print outs of information, McCrone report etc. and let them stew on it. It may take them sometime, but they’ll probably ask you some more questions, or at the very least get them not to vote.


      For you. Not sure if its Hislop, but they do the usual UK press of attacking AS.

    124. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Can someone please explain the significance of the .com ending for the VNB site? It sounds good, whatever it is…

    125. big_al says:


      Type into the address bar of your browser

    126. Castle Rock says:

      Have I got this right?

      The Westminster Government has devolved powers to Holyrood so that the Scottish Government can mitigate further the consequences of the Bedroom Tax. Rather than the Scottish Government being constrained by the £38m cap, it can now raise it to £50m which will then cover the shortfall in the discretionary housing payments which will hopefully address the effects of the legislation on the poorest and most needy members of our society.

      In effect then, the Scottish Government is robbing its other budgets to offset the harm being done by the legislation from Westminster.

      What kind of madness allows us to be in a political union with another country that forces us to rob our own budgets to stop the harm of another country’s abhorrent legislation?

      How can anyone in their right mind say that we are better together?

      Am I missing something here?

    127. ronnie anderson says:

      @Ian brotherhood 9.07 Ave never use anything other than my

      own name,but as been said previously,people have different

      reasons for coming out,& no one should be feeling the need

      to do it just because some of us choose to, its a judgement

      call, your’s.

    128. Jim Thomson says:

      Ian, the main site is – they could have also bought the .com domain for a few quid, but didn’t bother. Someone else has now bought that .com version and has simply placed a re-direct on it so that anyone typing the .com address instead of the version will end up on the Wings site. Neat, and seriously funny with a capital FUN 🙂

    129. kishorncommando says:

      Jim Thomson says:
      You were unlucky in a way. But at that time HSE thought 10 fatalities a year might be reasonable at the PI when it was set u, so things have got better, still far from perfect. By the way there any no progressive HSE policies in the white paper just business as usual so it’s not a PRIORITY with either lot !

    130. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      RE: Channel 4 and their well publicised recent poll, contrasted with the results of the one they started in February, is still accepting input but got no recent mention in connection with the YouGov results.

      BTW: if you refresh the tab/window, you can carry on voting (AH! An addition to the much loved film franchise) till bovine homecoming.

      Here’s the link to the latest results:-

      And here’s the link for taking part:-

      Scroll down a wee bit till you find, “What do you think? Fill out the Channel 4 News survey below.”
      Then go out to play….

    131. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      Well, if we’re into real names, I’ll go the full Monty. I suppose Stu will have to reapprove this?

    132. Derick Tulloch says:

      Real name because it’s safer to be in the daylight. Getting the Sovereignty Habit as wis wi Peter Arnott.

      Dadsarmy – you say your daughter would “like to see some impartial findings and commentary…”

      Can I suggest you point her at the international datasets that show how poorly the UK is doing economically and socially compared to our neighbours particularly Scandinavian ones. The OECD and the UN have no dog in the Scottish Independence race and are a close as you can get to impartial.

      Just show her the comparative figures and let her draw her own conclusions. The reason she struggles, the reason so many struggle, is that the UK is a steadily diminishing state (Margo) and hideously mismanaged. Or take her on holiday to Stockholm, Oslo or Copenhagen

      Sorry Stuart – lots of references so it might go into moderation hell.

      State pension – Replacement Rate for average earners (State + mandatory private)
      Norway 60.3%
      Sweden 53.6%
      Denmark 89.8%
      Finland 65.2%
      Iceland 101.1%
      USA 44.1%
      UK 37.4% Yes the UK pension is just over half the OECD average.
      OECD Average 67.6%

      GINI index (a Gini index of 0 represents perfect equality with national wealth shared between all citizens equally, while an index of 100 implies perfect inequality, with one citizen owning all the nation’s wealth). The higher the number the more unequal the society
      Norway 25.0 2008
      Ireland 33.9 2010
      Sweden 23.0 2005
      Iceland 28.0 2006
      Denmark 24.8 2011
      Finland 26.8 2008
      UK 40.0 2008/2009 Rather more unequal than our neighbours

      Legatum Prosperity Index 2013
      Norway No 1 GDP per capita $65,639 Life satisfaction 7.7
      Sweden No 4 GDP per capita $43,180 Life satisfaction 7.6
      Denmark No 6 GDP per capita $42,086 Life satisfaction 7.5
      Finland No 8 GDP per capita $38,654 Life satisfaction 7.4
      Ireland No 12 GDP per capita $43,591 Life satisfaction 7.0
      Iceland No 13 GDP per capita $37,851 Life satisfaction 7.6
      UK No 16 GDP per capita $36,901 Life satisfaction 6.9

      UN Human Development Index Ranking 2012
      Norway No 1,
      Ireland No 7
      Sweden No 10,
      Iceland No 13,
      Denmark No 15,
      Finland No 21,
      UK No 26
      Greece No 29

      Population 2011/GDP per head 2011 /Credit Rating and outlook 2013 (Moody’s/Fitch/S&P)
      Norway 5,037,365 $98,102 Aaa Stable/AAA Stable/AAA Stable
      Denmark 5,564,219,$59,852, Aaa Stable/AAA Stable/AAA Stable
      Finland 5,418,090 $48,823, Aaa Stable/AAA Stable/AAA Neg
      Iceland 319,575 $43,969. Baa3 Neg/BBB- Stable/BBB-Stable
      Ireland 4,600,000, $48,423 Ba1 Neg/BBB+ Neg/BBB+ Stable
      Scotland, 5,284,800, $41,189 (2010). Credit rating as UK
      Sweden, 9,453,000, $57,091 Aaa Stable/AAA Stable/AAA Stable
      UK 61,000,000 ,$39,038, Aaa Neg/AAA Neg/AAA Neg

      Teenage pregnancy rate per 1000 population.
      USA 52.1
      UK 30.8
      Ireland 18.7
      Norway 12.4
      Finland 9.2
      Denmark 8.1
      Sweden 6.5

      The UK has a much higher cost of living (the Harmonized Index), not unrelated to having HALF the national income per person (GDP SPP) than Norway has and less than half the debt

      Harmonized Index of Consumer Prices (Euros) using 2005 as 100
      UK 124.4.
      Norway 113.3

      GDP in Standard Purchasing Power 2010
      UK $22,740
      Norway $47,400

      Government Debt as a percentage of GDP (2011 – last year with figures for both)
      UK 85.5% still rising
      Norway 29%

      Source Eurostat via Google!dp=Eurostat

      Scotland is inherently richer than Norway

    133. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      I am quite settled and comfortable with my ursine persona, which was created way before those two illegal immigrants arrived in Edinburgh.

      I have made no attempt to hide who I am as anyone who met me at the Albanch and rally on the Mound will testify.

      I will stay with the BtP moniker if only to maximise the revenues on my merchandise, t shirts, sweaters, furry ears and bottles of holy Buggering pish, as a sliming cure.

      James I. McLaren

      Bon week-end.

    134. theycan'tbeserious says:

      Ask people a simple question…”what will Scottish history say about you”?…on the 19th of September 2014? Because when you make your mark you will carry that with you for the rest of your life. When your children and grandchildren are doing Scottish history at school and come home and ask what you did to free Scotland…what are you going to tell them?

    135. kendomacaroonbar says:


      and there was me thinking that you may have been a disgruntled Police car driver of old ? 🙂

    136. Hugh Wallace says:

      @Ian Brotherhood,

      Way ahead of you! 😉 But until a couple of years ago I wouldn’t have been able to go by my real name due to the job I used to do so all respect for those who do not out themselves but still want to contribute to the campaign.

      I am just about to have a lot of time off until the referendum (the joys of being a student) and have been intending writing a blog to help further the cause. But recently I have been reflecting on what the indy sites I read are for and have come to the conclusion that a lot of them are for people like us, committed or pretty much committed Yes voters. Where are the sites that are aimed precisely at the Don’t Knows and Nos who might be persuaded to jump ship? Those of us who write, or intend to write, need to bear that in mind I think. Derek Bateman’s blog yesterday about tying to explain the desire for independence to the English struck a cord with me.

    137. heedtracker says:

      @ alexicon, thanks for the link which ends “Given Salmond’s touchiness about cartoons, presumably the ban extends to the Beano too.” Its fascinating watching probably the biggest attack/smear/hate campaign ever on just one man by teamGB journalists, yet they whimper like poor wee lambs if their target complains. Are there any decent journalists in this nonsense union? Hope not.

      The only thing that Murdoch will worry about is tax on his media corp. If he thinks YES will win, he’ll make a deal like the protected gangster he thought he was until his crew phone hacked murder victims. Lie with pigs…

      I’m Bruce Wayne

    138. Lesley-Anne McLelland says:

      I have just had a wee out of the box thinking moment. Yes I know, but my solitary brain cell caught me unawares. 😛

      Now that more of us who put up the occasional post on Wings have dropped the pretence of an alter ego moniker does this mean that Wings has now become *ahem* main stream. 😉

    139. Alex Clark says:

      @Lesley-Anne McLelland

      My biggest worry is knowing who I’m “talking” to now. Well we will just have to make friends all over again 🙂

    140. Grouse Beater says:

      Apologies, but I trust not an intrusion:

      Those who expressed an interest in the 1705 Scots book I’m deciphering can see the start: Essays in Betrayal 2 on my website. More when I interpret the Scots and Latin.


    141. Salt Ire says:

      Saw a nice graphic depicting WoS as a sheepdog, Salmond as a single sheep and and the “separatists” as a flock of sheep on the Vote No Borders FB page earlier.

      Come by…

    142. Lorna Young says:

      Joining the name reveal.

      Re undecideds, I’m really disappointed that Tom Hunter’s website hasn’t done more to address information needs of undecided voters, there is clearly a need for this kind of approach

    143. Lesley-Anne McLelland says:

      Alex Clark says:

      @Lesley-Anne McLelland

      My biggest worry is knowing who I’m “talking” to now. Well we will just have to make friends all over again 🙂

      I know the feeling Alex. As I said to Stu over on Twitter perhaps this has resulted in the creation of a brand new on line game called “match the name to the moniker” 😛

    144. Alex Smith says:

      Now THAT was funny! 😀

    145. Grouse Beater says:

      Alex – what’s the portrait part of? It has a 1930’s style about it.

    146. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      @ theycan’tbeserious

      Imagine your grandchildren looking at your Facebook history and seeing that you had been hanging round the Bitter Together FB page before the historic YES vote in September 2014.

      Not cool.

    147. Calum Craig says:

      Re the name thing. I read Wings for a good while before I started posting about a year ago, initially using Karamu. I soon thought, why bother hiding who I am?

      Of course there are many who can’t do so but I would agree with Ian, if you can it does kind of disarm the nasty cybernat slurs.

    148. goldenayr says:


      “The reality is that many of the “I’m alright Jack” people look at homelessness and foodbanks, and think “there but for the grace of God, go I”.”

      No they don’t.

      It comes from whether you buy into the system or not.I never said she isn’t hardworking or that your family haven’t made sacrifices.But for someone to be so disengaged from what’s going on around them,and the cause of that misery,suggests emotional disengagement and therefore a lack of empathy.

      The establishment are seasoned practitioners at making you blame yourself,and by association others who have for whatever reason been unable to step up to the mark,for not attaining the goals set.

      Think the demonization of the poor by Labour and Tory.

      I would never expose my kids to harm.However,I also believe that wrapping our kids in cotton wool is doing a disservice to our children.

      Apologies if you think that I’m saying you’re a bad parent by not exposing her earlier to the harsh realities of life and the role politics play in those miseries.

    149. ronnie anderson says:

      @big_al, ther’s a rite load of devious b,tards on this site

      PMSL on the re direct.

    150. alexicon says:


      YES Falkirk are taking the show to many local communities in Falkirk, last night it was the turn of Tamfourhill and one of the guest speakers was Alan Bissett who was on good form again.
      Here is the link for the YES Falkirk facebook page, there’s a link to Alan Bissett’s speech on the page.

      YES Falkirk have to be commended for all the hard work they’re doing and to show your appreciation all of you should give them a thumbs up.
      The swing was 21% in favour of YES and as this was in a traditional Labour stronghold area, a housing estate at the edge of Falkirk, it was very encouraging and satisfying to see that taking the debate/meetings to the housing estates is paying off.

    151. goldenayr says:

      Re the outing of our true identities.

      I can’t.I share my name with a well known journo and it could cause problems for him,and me when I’m posting.

      “Ach,beat it.You’re that beeb guy huntin for a story”

    152. Alex Smith says:

      Not THE Brian the Braces, Goldenayr?

    153. Gizzit says:

      What with all the “real name” switching going on, I suspect you’ve all been smitten with reverse “I’m Spartacus” syndrome.

      I never liked my real name, and at the age of four, assassinated both my parents for saddling me with it.

    154. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Big Al et al –


      I did it, and thought I’d made a mistake, did it again – soo-perb!

      Would love to be a fly on the proverbial when the VNB people have their next meeting…especially if any of the ‘funders’ are present.

      ‘Good morning gentlemen. Fiona has a short Powerpoint to show us…’

    155. ronnie anderson says:

      I will defend to the death my rights to be called a

      Winger & a Cybernat.

      Am gonna get some buisness cards made up

      Ronald Anderson WC at your service.

    156. Lesley-Anne McLelland says:

      goldenayr says:

      Re the outing of our true identities.

      I can’t.I share my name with a well known journo and it could cause problems for him,and me when I’m posting.

      “Ach,beat it.You’re that beeb guy huntin for a story”

      I know your name na na na na na! 😛

    157. goldenayr says:

      Lesley Ann

      You better calm down.

      That’s two outs in a week.

      What you going to tell us next?..:-D

    158. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @goldenayr –

      Are you telling us there’s more than one Matthew Amroliwala?

    159. Alex McArthur says:

      Well this is easier than the first time I came out!

      Though I do think Cankert Callan (Irritable Boy) kinda suited me!

    160. Tam Jardine says:


      AKA Nicholas Witchell?

    161. heedtracker says:

      @ Calum Craig! Not THE Calum Craig?! I love your work:D

    162. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @ronnie anderson –

      Don’t do it man – you may be flushed with success to begin with, but it’ll all go down the pan and drive you round the bend…etc etc…

    163. Rick Guthrie says:

      I am who I am (But my mother called me Richard)

    164. Gordon Hay says:

      One thing I’ve found about always using my real name is that on sites like the Scotsman (I know, I know but I started reading it 45 years ago and it’s hard to give it up altogether, though I did stop buying it two years ago) the usual suspects seem strangely reluctant to dish out the treatment they normally give to pseudonymous indy supporters.

    165. Boorach says:

      @ call me dave

      The Nigg thing was reported on the drivetime programme but in the 5 minute Highland news section. Looking good for this wee corner of God’s acre!

    166. Lesley-Anne McLelland says:

      goldenayr says:

      Lesley Anne

      You better calm down.

      That’s two outs in a week.

      What you going to tell us next?..:-D

      I know I don’t what’s happening to me, I’m getting seriously concerned. What have I got left to reveal?

      The only thing left that I can see how I’m voting on 18th September. I think I might be able to keep that one quiet. Let’s face it no one would believe me if I told them anyway. 😛

    167. manandboy says:

      Having a wife and family brings particular responsibilities when commenting on the web.
      Using a ‘stage name’ means the family are not involved in any way and my family prefer it that way.
      I don’t need to worry about them
      and, more importantly,
      they don’t have to worry about possible consequences arising from what I write.

    168. M4rkyboy says:

      My mate announced himself a Yes tonight for the fact that the No campaign insulted his intelligence and abilities by saying that Scotland wouldn’t be capable of Independence and that the myriad problems would be insurmountable.
      I have now converted Margo’s one.
      All it took was showing him the door and he took a look and concluded the above.

    169. M4rkyboy says:

      I see a lot of people are revealing their names.
      My name is Mark McLay and i am from Falkirk should anyone like to know.

    170. goldenayr says:

      I’ll give you a clue.

      My initials are JP.The beeb bit is to throw you of the scent though..Lesley Ann…shhh.

    171. BuckieBraes says:


      ‘Type into the address bar of your browser.’

      I’m trying that, but I keep getting stuff about coyotes. Mind you, there’s plenty lampooning mileage there: Acme Scare Stories, and plunging into a canyon.

    172. Lesley-Anne McLelland says:

      Congratulations M4rkyboy, as the old Queen song goes…another one bites the dust. 😛

      Don’t you just love all this love bombing from Cameron and co and negativity from Better Together. They are making OUR job of converting people to YES so much easier. 🙂

    173. kendomacaroonbar says:


      So *YOU* are Johnston Press ? 🙂

    174. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Ianbrotherhood. Ah am roon the bend,success 19/09/2014

      that’ll dey fur me.

    175. goldenayr says:

      Lesley Ann

      Come on,come clean.

      It’s the wee green men are actually taking the Borders for landfill in another part of the galaxy..isn’t it?

    176. Gavin Douglas says:

      I shall probably do this only once. Anyone looking at my avatar would know my surname anyway.

      I get fed up with folk coming up to me and saying “You’re that medieval makar, aren’t you” or “Gaun gie us a few pages of the Aeneidos, wee man”, or even “You that Bishop o Dunkeld – how did you survive the Reformation?” What a bloody drag.

      Jamie Arriere is unwell

    177. Gordon Hay says:

      As for the possibility of being mistaken for someone else, I am aware that I have the same name as a PR professional from Glasgow who was, and may still be, associated with Yes Scotland. I, on the other hand, am a retired truck driver with the luxury of not having to consider the effect on anyone else of posting under my real name.

      I have every sympathy with those who have good reason to consider it wiser to stay under cover.

    178. goldenayr says:


      Not in a million bloody years.

    179. Lesley-Anne McLelland says:

      goldenayr says:

      Lesley Ann

      Come on,come clean.

      It’s the wee green men are actually taking the Borders for landfill in another part of the galaxy..isn’t it?

      Dammit I was wanting to keep that as a wee surprise. I didn’t think folks could take too much more from me outing this, that and the other this week. 😛

    180. Calum Craig says:

      Totally off topic but I think we are far enough in for it not to be a problem.

      I recently had an insight to the thinking of a No voter. Guy I went to school with who still lives in Ayr posted a picture on Facebook of him and his mrs in London for some concert or other. A few folk commented about where the picture was taken and referred to some part of London. Poster commented “my favourite place in London”.

      He has never lived in London so it’s not like he is being nostalgic or anything, I think to many No voters they think that having some sort of a claim (as being British) to London as this big, international city is some sort of status symbol.

      Just my wee pet theory right enough.

    181. Maid_in_Scotland says:

      callmedave – the news item about Nigg quayside did pop up on the STV (Highland and Islands) 6 o’clock news with an interview with AS, who was, naturally very upbeat about it. Great for the local economy which has lost so many jobs over many decades. However, I can’t find any reference to it on the STV website, surprise, surprise (unless I’m missing something). Lots of links to negative stuff, of course, including Sir Ming’s ‘shock horror’ on the day of the Bruges speech about the Putin comment nonsense. So he got his oar in on cue.

      Reference the previous thread and warnings to AS about watching what he says to journalists – he did mention (keep this to yourselves, people) that there were oil, gas and renewable opportunities out there (North Sea) for the next 50 years.

      Anyway, for gawd’s sake don’t breathe a word of this ‘cos if London gets to hear of it, they’ll be working even harder to keep us in the Union. They think it’s all going to run oot next year. That’s what they said, didn’t they?

    182. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @goldenayr –

      Are you Jeremy Paxman?

    183. Alex Clark says:

      I’m missing my nomdeplume already. I’ll be sticking with it for the toilet paper and chip wrapper sites but for my friends. You get the real deal lol.

    184. M4rkyboy says:

      Cheers Lesley,we went out for a few frames of Snooker at the Creamery and i had only talked about Indy with him once before where i didn’t even try to convert him.I just countered his concerns and pointed a few things out and he arrived at Yes himself.

    185. Lesley-Anne McLelland says:

      I’m sorry, but I’ve just seen this over on Twitter. 🙂

      I’m guessing the *ahem* intelectuals at the top of NOB didn’t give much thought to how they’d be referred to. 😛

    186. Liquid Lenny says:

      I have recently changed my WOS name to the above,

      Unfortunately I cant give my real name just now as Im working undercover for the cause and my old WOS name may compromise that work 🙂

      I was at the Counting House and have motorbikes in case anybody is wondering 🙂

    187. Democracy Reborn says:

      I try to avoid referring undecided/soft No voters to any material on the Yes side which might be viewed as partisan. I know there’s some great stuff for example from Business for Scotland, but for a completely independent view, things like the detailed Financial Times study last year on the economics of independence are pretty powerful. Same would apply to studies by the energy industry on North Sea capacity or even Standard & Poor’s recent assessment.

      My own view is that for Yes to win, it’s going to take a coalition of voters:-

      1. Firm/lifelong believers in self-rule
      2. Those who believe in more social justice than Westminster has given them for the last 30 years. That would include the ‘enlightened’ middle class & those most adversely affected by austerity. Although some of both groups may have voted SNP in 2011, most would be Labour voters. They are a key group.
      3. Those who, whilst not unattracted by social justice arguments, are primarily motivated by self-interest (mortgages, their job, pensions, etc.). Another key group. We need to be able to re-assure them that, even if they don’t believe independence will lead to an improvement in their living standards & quality of life (which it would, certainly in the medium-long term), they will nevertheless have security in terms of employment, interest rates, etc.

    188. Alex Clark says:

      hello jingly jangly! LOLOL

    189. M4rkyboy says:

      Everyone must realise that the desire for an Independent Scotland resides in the majority of our fellow Scots.It’s just that this desire has been suppressed by a relentless Propaganda campaign.
      Everyone is convertible,you just have to push the right buttons.

    190. goldenayr says:

      Lesley Ann [I’m shortening your name to LA after this,easier to type and a bit glitzy]

      Do us a favour?

      Ask them if they’ll leave the Borders,I quite like them,and just take the Home Counties instead.Nobody will miss a featureless cesspit going missing.

    191. Chic McGregor says:

      @John Sellars
      “I meant ….nobody else…”

      The Rev isn’t the only one… but he is the best.

    192. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Alan Clarck. is the Glen’s a confirned venue its that

      pub at the mid craigie end of the cleppie

    193. Alex Smith says:


      Jackie Pird? 😛

    194. Alex Clark says:

      @Democracy Reborn

      I agree it would be great to send people to completely non partisan articles. You mentioned the FT one and I pointed many in that direction by archiving it and sending it to them. It is a paywall.

      Can you provide many others? Are they printed every day? No of course they’re not so you can only play with the hand your dealt. That means taking apart the guff propaganda spewed out by the Westminster Ministry of Lies.

      The only place to do this is the indy supporting sites such as Business for Scotland, in fact all the best sites for real information and the truth are on the “AYE RIGHT” cards and leaflets.

      Try distributing some, they do work, I know from experience.

    195. Diane says:

      Just loving the thing! Genius, pure genius!

    196. Alex Clark says:

      Yes ronnie

      Your gig is in the Glens, we’re not really going to the ferry :)It’s not at the mid craigie end, its ot the hulltoon end just aff the strathie.

    197. Lesley-Anne McLelland says:

      goldenayr says:

      Lesley Anne [I’m shortening your name to LA after this,easier to type and a bit glitzy]

      Do us a favour?

      Ask them if they’ll leave the Borders,I quite like them,and just take the Home Counties instead.Nobody will miss a featureless cesspit going missing.

      Don’t worry my partner uses that for me as well, along with name like bitch, hoi, hay, yo short stop and so on. 😛

      I’ll see what I can do. I know they were quite keen on using the Borders cause it would help fill in a Black Hole in a galaxy far far away. There were others who suggested just getting the Borders towed somewhere near the Isle of Man whilst others suggested places far warmer.

      For those worried about the various riding of the Marches that they would miss I can confirm, exclusively here tonight, that has been resolved. After relocating the Borders all future Riding of the Marches would involve the use of sea horses. 🙂

      I’ll certainly have a word in their auditorial devices and see if they are open to removing the Home Counties instead of the Borders though. 😉

    198. goldenayr says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      Nope,ah’m the pope.

      Faked my own death when I realised,with the rise of internet blogging,that the only way to get Scotland restored was to become a “cybernat”.

      Apologies to everyone who sent a condolence card.


    199. Tam Jardine says:

      Not sure if anyone has brought this up but the strangest thing happens at about 20 seconds in and then again at about 32 seconds in during the BT cinema advert. It’s like a disturbance in the force. The kids seem to all be tripping out on it anyway. Drugged up 16′ lizards, the lot of them.

      This is probably the way people spoke in the days before the Waco seize. That’s it! They ain’t a political movement (not big enough)- they’re a cult.

    200. goldenayr says:


      Cheers for that.

      BTW.They’re aw the same fae there.Nae respect.

      Hmmm…might have to buy shin pads now for when you come up.Or better still,just put your hand over this comment if they’re in the room.


    201. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Alex Clark ok satnav workin noo, so it is a defo the


    202. Alex Clark says:

      @Tam Jardine

      Oh deary me. Did they make that at Strathallen School right after The Big Debate.

      Who are their advisors? Who are they appealing to in the pictures? Have they lost it All Together?

    203. Training Day says:

      Will need to stick with the moniker as I’m not unadjacent to.. um..efforts to ensure we determine ourselves in a selfwards direction.

      But I did put my real name on ian brotherhood’s petition on the CBI! 🙂

    204. Tam Jardine says:

      The infamous Waco seize… bleedin predictive text

    205. X_Sticks says:

      Whew! Taken me two hours to catch up with Wings, Bella, NNS, Mr Bateman and I haven’t even started on Twitter yet.

      I’m torn over the name thing, I see the point, but I think I will get very confused ’cause I’ve got to know everyone by their handles and I guess I’m known by mine. I think I’ll sticks to my X online, but that doesn’t mean that Colin Izat is somehow afraid to come out as a Yes voter anytime and to anyone.

      To that end, anyone who would like to meet Colin Izat can do so on Monday 5 May at the YesMobile at the Turriff Show come along and I’ll make you a coffee (free for a small donation to the cause ;D ) and blether about all things Yes :0

      Spotted you there Jingly Jangly ;D

    206. Alex Clark says:

      ronnie now listen carefully, OK

      Yeah cannae get a cone at the Glens. For that yeh need to go to the ferry. See you there 🙂

    207. goldenayr says:

      Tam Jardine

      It’s probably the smug look on the wee boys face.It’s got the appearance of saying..

      “One day,I’ll shall be the Master”

      Nearly put Obi Wan at the end of that.

    208. Democracy Reborn says:

      @Alex Clark

      Alex, believe me, I’ve recommended this site, Bella, Wee Ginger, etc to all undecided/No voters I’ve spoken to, & indicted that they can link/archive to external material from it. I’ll continue to do so.

      My point was that there is a category of undecided/No voters who have an impulsive refusal to believe the truth of anything that a ‘pro-indy’ site says. If on the hand they’re referred to something independent, it often carries more weight.

    209. Mary Bruce says:

      Oh God, that link is soooo gooood, who did it? Well done, genius, love it.

      I nipped over to twitter to see if this incompetent No Borders outfit had registered their name there and found this. Hoho looks like they forgot to bagsy the flowersofunion twitter name as well. Ahahahahahaha:

    210. Tam Jardine says:

      Alex Clark

      It’s the strangest thing. The more BT try and appear to be a grassroots movement the more bizarre they come across. They have gone beyond parody. Advisors? I see no advice in that advert.

      I’m watching it on my wee Samsung. Imagine that on the big screen? Do you think after filming, Darling, Carmichael and Murphy all take their latex young people’s masks off mission impossible style?

    211. Twenty14 says:

      @ Tam Jardine – just watched the BT cinema advert. No offence to the ” Young Actors ” but I’d keep up with my studies if I was them – couldnae convince a mouse to eat cheese

    212. Alex Clark says:


      I feel the same somehow, just think Thepnr (The Point of No Return) has a bit more impact than boring Alex Clark lol.

      I think the point has been made, using a pseudonym in order to achieve something can be a good idea. I like X-Sticks or HandandShrimp for example.

      I’m going back to Thepnr, that’s who I am on here. Ian’s point was valid and none of us should be ashamed or frightened to say who we are. And we’re not.

    213. goldenayr says:

      Democracy Reborn

      I leftfooted an antagonistic,diehard no voter the other week.

      Started discussing the plans for the new film studio in Cumbernauld and whether that was the right location.Then progressed onto the busainess opportunities it would provide and the very respected small movie industry we have here,he didn’t even know about our arthouse achievements or it’s existence.

      Anyhoos,when he left he took a Yes card and scribbled a couple of sites he might like to visit.

      Won’t say I’ve changed his mind but I certainly opened it.

    214. kininvie says:

      ‘Have your say’ on Vote No Borders now only allows you to have your say on ‘why Scotland should stay part of the UK’ by email (checked, scanned, approved, purged of unthought)….

      Nevertheless, seems the moderator’s ironey detection machine ain’t fully operational: First two comments:

      “To ensure Scotland can afford free university education and health prescriptions for all” Grahame Wilkinson

      “I don’t want to have to apply for a visa to stay in France; there’s enough paperwork as there is!” Adam Crosbie

    215. Mary Bruce says:

      @Thepnr: Glad to have you back. Even though I met you at the counting house and knew your name, somehow your REAL identity is Thepnr. There are loads of Alex’s in the world. There’s only ONE Thepnr!

    216. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      Basically the No vote is soft.
      Just about everyone you ask says ‘Aye,i want Scotland to be Independent,it’s just that i don’t think it’s the right time or that we can afford it’.
      There is a latent desire amongst the majority for an Independent Scotland that has had to be suppressed by the British state and they have used fear to suppress it.

      Just saying, you know. Remember the editor of the Daily Record saying that come the day may Scots would vote No with a heavy heart?

      It’s our job to make sure that doesn’t happen. That everyone whose heart is heavy because they have believed the lies has that heart lightened by being told the truth.

      The truth shall make you free.

    217. RogueCoder says:


      Good evening Wingers,

      Been reflecting this evening on Margo’s career and contribution to Scottish politics. Also those others whom came to serve and left us too soon.

      Had an idea this evening. Maybe it’s self-indulgent, but to me it seems that we need to re-install some respect and reverence for public service – at least, for those who don’t get into it just to help themselves.

      Looking for a straw poll on the feasibility of my memorial idea – hope you’ll give feedback:

      There are 129 seats in the Scottish parliament. The Presiding Officer might broadly be considered Seat 130 (not a political seat, but an official position within the chamber). My idea is to add “Seat 131” – a permanently empty seat identical to all the others, but placed slightly above and outside the semicircle. Its empty chair should represent the missing MSP of the day; the last MSP to pass away in office in service of their country. The “holder” of the chair would be the most recent MSP to have died whilst still in office. In this way, they might still “look upon” the continuing daily business of Scottish democracy. The idea is that democracy in Scotland itself should never die, and that we shall always remember and pay tribute to those whom served it.

      I don’t think Margo would have liked a statue, but she might have approved of something that could be inspiring.

      Thoughts/comments/ridicule welcomed.

    218. goldenayr says:


      Monikers are handy,as exemplified by my favourite one I used on The Scotsman.

      The British Establishment Lie.

      You’ll be telling me next it’s my fault their sales are plummeting.


    219. Thepnr says:

      Thanks Mary

      Think I made the right choice. Just making a point!

    220. caz-m says:

      Lesley-Anne McLelland

      I’m sorry, but I’ve just seen this over on Twitter. 🙂

      I’m guessing the *ahem* intelectuals at the top of NOB didn’t give much thought to how they’d be referred to. 😛

      Lesley, is that NOBs with a small “s” or NOBS with a capital “S”.

      These NO campaigns are very sexually orientated with, UKOK and NOBS.

      Are they trying to tell us somethin.

    221. X_Sticks says:


      I like that idea or something very like it.

    222. goldenayr says:


      Good idea.

      But it shouldn’t just represent lost MSPs.

      Make it a higher ideal..the people who have died giving us democracy,the people themselves,an org needing a voice to be heard[could be done after FMQs before everyone shuffles off] and it should be a physical one as well.Directly below the PO.
      Just a thought.

    223. rab_the_doubter says:

      Rogue coder,
      What a lovely idea. As Jean Luc Picard would say “make it so”

      On another matter, anyone got any idea how many pro indy posts were deleted from the VNB Site vs Pro Union posts. Could be knocked up into the equivalent of a Poll.

    224. caz-m says:

      No Borders or

      “NOBS” for short.

    225. goldenayr says:

      Richt I hear Zebidee,time for bed.

      Oichde mhath.

    226. caz-m says:

      Just imagine the conversation at a Better Together Rally,

      “Are you one of those NOBS?”

      “No, I’m a UKOK”

    227. X_Sticks says:

      On a little thinking about your idea RogueCoder, I think it should be the Margo seat.

      It should be (a bit like jury duty) be inhabited (sat on) by a different member of the public every week. Chosen at random. They should have the power to stop ANY MSP in their tracks and demand an explanation of whatever they are saying/announcing/doing. A bit like the First Speaker, but unfettered by parliamentary etiquette. A bit like Margo herself.

      That would be a fitting reminder of her to my mind 😀

    228. Gordon Hay says:

      @Tam Jardine
      Looks like two seconds have been edited out of that video. When you load the page the length is shown as 1.01 but when you click to play it that changes to 0.59, which might explain it.

    229. Democracy Reborn says:


      Well done ????

    230. Democracy Reborn says:


      Don’t know why that last post had 4?, meant to be a thumbs-up, lol

    231. Lesley-Anne McLelland says:

      Rogue coder I love that idea. Something permanent and it might just focus the minds of those actually in the chamber as they pass by the permanent empty chair.

      caz as far as I am aware it was just NOB but knowing the No Borders lot, as I have comr to do so over the last 24 hours, before they removed all comments, who’s to say about the *ahem* S or s. I do like your NOBS suggestion though. 😛

    232. Derick Tulloch says:

      Is ‘that’ the Better Together cinema advert?
      Get away – an early Fringe spoof I think

      The Tory Kids: coming to a grouse shoot near you. Soon.

      “So, Fife’s a great place, you would like Fife. Everybody likes Fife, it’s great. It’s St Andrews in the north. St Andrews is kind of posh and it’s got the golf and all that, you know. Lots of pullovers and fuck. St Andrews.
      Up there and a university – it’s all full of posh folk – and a lot of them are called Alisdair with a….Alisdair with a ‘DAIR’. Alisdair, yes, Alisdair.
      Alisdairs always spell it for you. ‘Yes, could you put it to Alisdair? DAIR. Alisdair. Hello Mr Connolly, could you sign your name here, could you do it to Alisdair? DAIR’.

      Have you seen Farquhar?’
      ‘Oh yes, Farquhar’s over there with Finlay.
      Finlay and Henderson. They’re talking to Campbell.

      Are they really? Yes. Campbell’s talking to Robertson and Robertson’s talking to Farquhar and Farquhar’s talking to Phillips.

      Has nobody got fucking first names round here any more?

      Derick says: how have the mighty fallen. Billy, get a grip.

    233. Lesley-Anne McLelland says:

      I forgot to say that the quotes you have on your post kininvie were there yesterday. They are not actually from the comments section of the website that has been closed down.

      I think they were included from folks who are obviously close and personal *ahem* friends. I mean how else could they appear on the website as soon it went live. All the other *ahem* quotes appear to be the same as those that were there yesterday.

    234. daddyo says:

      Was talking to one of our pals today about the vote. She said she wasn’t going to coz it never changes anything ( she is really the wifes pal). i said do you know what the voting paper will look like? She said “Aye it will be labour, snp and the rest. I told her it will be just one question – no politics – just about Scotland – yes or no.
      I didn’t know that she said.

      There is a lot of voters who are going to get a shock when they come to vote. I can hear it now – “here pal yiv given me the rang paper!

    235. Tam Jardine says:

      FFS Just tried commenting on the BT site. I aint a Facebooker but my wife is. Somehow she has just become a cybernat. Oh shit.


      serves me right for trying to be a smart arse. I’m going to bed before I get divorced

    236. Thepnr says:


      May I be so bold as to suggest Rev Stu makes that the very fist page in the wee blue book. A replica of the paper. Yes or No. That IS the question.

    237. Lesley-Anne McLelland says:

      Deny all knowledge Tam.

      If you have a cat or a dog you could always blame them. I know they are computer literate I have seen the photos. 😛

    238. X_Sticks says:

      daddyo says:

      “I told her it will be just one question – no politics – just about Scotland – yes or no.”

      Yup, daddyo, that’s right.

      And when they are standing there, alone, in that booth where no-one else can see. With that pencil. And that ballot paper. And that one question. What are they going to do……


    239. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      When I started to comment on Scottish politics I decided to use my real name, because I felt I was really involved and shouldn’t hide behind a pseudonym. Previously I always commented as “Rolfe” which is the name of a cat I was extremely fond of and who was an amazing character. A sort of in memoriam thing.

      It didn’t really do any good because I was fisking homoeopaths at the time and a vet I’d said something slightly rude about on a forum (quoted someone else who had said in an email that he was “slightly madder than the average badger”) found out who I was anyway and tried to get me struck off for insulting a colleague. (I think that allowing animals to suffer by pretending sugar pills are medicine is a lot more worthy of striking off, but the RCVS are a shower of craven sell-outs.)

      Anyway, I switched to my own name but left off the surname. To hilarious effect once on the old Scotsman boards when someone tried to poke fun at me for adopting a cod-Scottish moniker.

      But Ian is quite right. Those of us who can, should come right out. I might not keep the Full Monty version permanently, but for a few days anyway. Or maybe just in the evenings.

      There are a lot of Morags about. There is at least one other Morag Kerr around if you google it, she’s a big noise in teacher training I think. But I’m pretty sure I’m the only one with the full handle.

    240. Lesley-Anne McLelland says:

      Sorry I’m O’T here but you got to love that guy Blair, if nothing else he’s consistent.

      The former Prime Minister said he had “no ­recollection” of being told a Labour politician was named in 1998 as a suspected member of a paedophile ring at a children’s home.

      Amazing how someone who once was a Prime Minister of U.K. can now suffer, on a regular basis, from lapses of “no recollection.”

    241. Tam Jardine says:


      Have just been given an abusive monicker of my very own to be used at home until BT delete her post

    242. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Morag Graham Kerr –


    243. Lesley-Anne McLelland says:

      Tam Jardine says:


      Have just been given an abusive monicker of my very own to be used at home until BT delete her post

      Oops! 😛

      I don’t think I’d hold your breath on your post being deleted any time soon by BT I’m afraid. 🙁

    244. daddyo says:

      X_Sticks says
      What are they going to do……

      From your lips to God’s ears.

      In the spirit of transparency it’s Ian from Fife.
      My daughter called me daddyo coz she thought I was a Thundercat, remember them?

      I got a visit from a Husband and Wife team from the SNP today. They said they were amazed at the amount of yessers they had met – in Fife! Go figure.

    245. RogueCoder says:

      Tempting s it may be, I don’t think we could get away with calling it the “Margo seat” = it would never get past the other parties whom – quite rightly – would decry it as partisan. It would need to be open to all parties, and probably retrospective – Dewer, McLetchie, et al.

    246. Lesley-Anne McLelland says:

      To be fair daddyo there was an inkling that Fife would not be as anti independence as the BBC would like us all to think.

      I’m referring to the second by-election in Fife. Whilst waiting for the count to emerge they were talking to someone from the SNP, can’t remember who, who said that whilst they were canvassing for the by-election they were also asking about the referendum and despite the noise from the BBC the figures still got out. Apparently the returns from the referendum canvassing showed that around 80% of those canvassed would be voting YES. 😛

    247. Thepnr says:

      I’m working in Fife right now and my boss when we had a foreign visitor said “It’ll be different after we vote Yes, eh Alex!” I just said are you voting Yes “Your right I am”.

      I have never told him what I believed, he could be reading this and I would never have known. This was an eye opener, Yes will win.

    248. X_Sticks says:

      @Ian from Fife

      Not sure about God, daddyo, but hope to (your deity/expletive here) someone’s listening.

      It is comin’ yet for a’ that – even in Fife. Lived in weird Wormit for quite a while and wife’s born Kennoway and family in Newport. No doubt there are some tough nuts to crack, but we’ll get there 😉

    249. Democracy Reborn says:

      @Derick Tulloch


      That post with the economic/social data was fab. Proof, if ever it were needed, that the Scottish public have been brainwashed for too long.

    250. call me dave says:

      For those who are hopping mad at the North Sea boundary change on the night before the Scottish Parliament convened you can get some information here.

      Craig Murray ex Ambassador (resigned) in Protest at UK’s dodgy procedures abroad “in the service of evil” he says.

      Covers EU entry…

      A good listen ‘pod cast’.

    251. call me dave says:

      Fife me too.

      Last Saturday YES stall allowed into Glenrothes Centre by management team there, NO getting a go soon.

      I was ‘astonished’ how busy they were with folk coming to the table. The three volunteers did not go approaching passers by. All went well, folk asking questions and taking leaflets, many OAP’s which encouraged me. It was the pensions scare story that week I believe.

      I was about the location for over an hour and heartened by the smiley faces and warm friendly chatting, not all politics either.

    252. Maybe someone should tell those Votenoborders folk that we already have a border. On a wee trip down to Newcastle recently we stopped on the Scottish side of the Tweed and took photos of the Welcome to Scotland sign. Then hubby nipped back across the border and took a shot of the wee stone that has England on it along with a coat of arms, and of the Northumberland sign.

      The border has been there for a long time…longer than the three hundred years the No folk keep chirping about, and the part of Scotland known as the Scottish Borders is fiercely proud of its history and traditions.

      Ridicule is a well-sharpened spear that we should keep poking at these folk, for at the end of the day it will fatally wound them.

    253. daddyo says:

      I hope you are right – was in ASDA’s yesterday and the guy on the till said “keep wearing your badge” it was my Yes badge.

      “weird Wormit” really funny. I did actually Laugh out Loud
      We have to get there – the alternative is truly scary.

      Am i right in thinking that the cap on the bedroom tax adjustment that our masters have given us comes out of the standing block grant? So no extra funding?

    254. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      Now it’s gone a bit quiet I have a wee story.

      I was given some individual letters to deliver by hand to canvassed SNP supporters, in relation to the EU elections. One was for a cottage in Carlops, a semi right on the main road. As I put the letters in the letterbox I noticed a Yes sign in a front window. However, it was hand-made and not very bright, and it didn’t catch the eye from the road.

      I still have a few of the A4 Yes cards we were given in September so I went back with one, with a post-it sticker praising the hand-made sign but wondering if they would like this. I put that through the letter-box. Next time I passed – there was no Yes sign at all! I was gutted.

      However, fast-forward a few days to the middle of this week, and hey presto, there was the blue Yes sign, this time in the bay window which is more prominent, and easily seen by the traffic on the main A702. It looked as if they might have been cleaning the windows in preparation! I was well chuffed.

      However this morning as I was passing I saw the old poster back. How odd, I thought. So on the way home from work I slowed down to see what was going on. The bright pro poster was indeed in the bay window, sassy as you like. And the original hand-made version was – in the window of the other half of the semi, the next-door house!

      I wonder if they would like my last card from September, just so they match…?

    255. X_Sticks says:

      Onyhoo, Zebedee’s givin me sh!t coz its past ma bedtime..

      Night alls.

    256. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      Am i right in thinking that the cap on the bedroom tax adjustment that our masters have given us comes out of the standing block grant? So no extra funding?

      Got it in one. All this “concession” amounts to is the right to cut expenditure from elsewhere to mitigate the effects of the tax.

      Be still my heart.

    257. Bouncy says:

      How about the “Absent Friends” seat?

    258. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      Another wee story.

      Another of the individual letters was for an address in West Linton. A very short street, but no street numbers, just names. And two cottages (opposite each other) with no name plate showing.

      I thought I knew which one it was but thought wasn’t good enough. The place was deserted. Then I noticed the garage, feet from the pavement, was open and the recycling bin was sitting just inside the door. Aha, I thought, perhaps an old envelope with an address will tell me this is the right house.

      So I started rooting through the bin, looking for an envelope. I pulled out three things and none had an address on it. Then I thought, what on earth do you think you’re doing? If anyone comes round the corner and finds you rooting through someone’s bin you’ll never be able to show your face in this village again! (A bit awkward when I actually live there.) I backed off.

      So I went home and logged on to Wings and Twitter to see what was going on. What was going on was – #bingate

      (Next day when the Post Office was open I asked the assistant there, and discovered it was actually the right house.)

    259. Bouncy says:

      I think this removal of the bedroom tax cap is a bad thing – not from the point of view that in Scotland we can help to alleviate the austerity of down south and the victims of the bedroom tax, but from the point of view that we are forced to subsidise Tory policies and sacrifice some of the other iniquities and child poverty brought on upon us because of the tory (red and blue) desire to continue to pay bonuses to bankers.

    260. daddyo says:

      Morag Graham Kerr

      Its all down to mind over matter – you know the rest – I know its late, finish the merlot then bed.

      night night

      Last thing – no matter what you think about we eck he was inspirational at FMQ’s

      Cometh the hour cometh the man

    261. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      I think Eck walks on water, as it happens.

    262. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      And I’m on Pinot Grigio at the moment.

    263. Chic McGregor says:

      I’ve always used my real name, or the abbreviation chicmac, except once years ago when a forum wouldn’t let me sign in but insisted I couldn’t use my email and username because it was already taken. On that forum I re-registered as Hendry, my middle name, actually, might have been ‘Hendo’ I think Hendry was taken.

      There is another Chic MacGregor going about, I think he has posted here, but more often I come across him on FB.

      No biggie, since hes is pro-indy as well.

    264. CameronB says:

      What about the jam? Not even a scrape?

    265. Patrician says:

      I am not stopping using my online name , I have been using this name or a variation of it online since the mid ’80s. I share my real name with a very prolific poster on the Herald and I would never want anyone to get us confused. We also share our name with a recent UK Prime minister.

      If you really need to know my details click on my avatar and do a whois on the domain name, you will get all the details you need and more.

    266. Chic McGregor says:

      An inverse Brucie bonus Morag. i.e. Something for a pair if you play your cards right.


    267. Chic McGregor says:

      Actually I was very glad last week when my son in Bathgate asked us if we had a Yes card. Because his corner flat is in a very prominent position on a main drag and it would be very visible to cars going up the hill. Needless to say we sent one off toot sweet.

    268. I’m trying to find a way to maximise my meagre talents in the fight over the next four and a half months. Here’s an idea.

      Does anyone with time on their hands want to take over a ready to rock independence blog and make it really sing for the next four and a half months ?


      I can make and host many more of these and am happy to pay for the server costs and domain name registration if there are people out there with the time, talent and ideas to make the most of them.

      No charge, no hidden snags, full support. (Back end is WordPress, easy to use and bombproof, I will provide full docmentation)

      E-mail me or contact me here through Wings if you are interested.

    269. Patrician says:

      I know someone bought the address. Well being bored I spent £1.99 and bought So as I am bored I will throw out a challenge, when the domain goes live tomorrow what is the best site to redirect it to? My first thought was to Wings but if anyone has a better or more inventive suggestion I am willing to listen.

    270. Right, I’m an idiot.

      And I’ve been to the pub listening to a good band and perhaps had a wee dram or two.

      Anyway, the URL in the IndyBlog link above was wrong.

      Try this : INDYBLOG

    271. Morag says:

      Maybe that Craig Murray page? Normally I can’t stand the guy, but that’s a nice piece of fisking.

    272. Chic McGregor says:

      Scot renewables.

      We have plenty blogs. Too many, if anything, in my view.

      That is why I am not running one. I have run forum type sites in the past.

      The only thing I considered worthwhile would have been one site which was a portal to all the other pro indy sites.

      That made sense in that it would be far easier to promote one url rather than many.

      The vision I had was a link list for the visitor with a description of what each site was like and feed which displayed the start of the current lead article of each.

      Also, perhaps, a reference archive.

      My ideal was that it would be in the format of a magazine, where the pages could be turned over (there are simulated page turners out there). So you would go to the site and it would have a front page of say, Newsnet Scotland. Grab the corner and turn over to the next page, and that gets you to say Wings and so on.

      But the flag was never saluted when I ran it up the pole plus you now find that nearly all pro indy sites now list links to all the others anyway (wasn’t always the case in the bad old days).

      Not what you want to hear I expect. Sorry.

    273. Morag says:

      Chic, I’d salute that.

    274. Chic McGregor says:

      There is one thing that would be useful. A site that attracted young females. That is the demograph which is the biggest problem for Yes. Unfortunately since I am neither young nor female, I personally am cluel;ess as to what a site like that might be like.

      But if someone does, then that is what to go for rather than further diluting the pond as is,

    275. Bouncy says:

      You would think that after more than 24 hours, a full advertising splurge on the state broadcasting network and a band of a couple of ladies, a chap on a guitar and an older chap on a piano, there would be some sort of a buzz about votenoborders (not the .com version) – but I am somewhat disappointed. After the class comedy served up yesterday, the removal of genuine questions, there appears to be nothing. So, after 2 years (I feel like the Pythons), our quest for the positive case for the union continues….

    276. Chic,

      That’s fine.

      All I am saying is, if anyone wants a hosted, fully functional WordPress site with some design and SEO help if required – for free, no strings – then I am happy to offer it.

      (Provided it is for the cause, of course)

      If it’s a drug on the market and no-one is interested then that’s fine as well.

      Personally I am not so sure. Only the most dedicated read down this far below an article in a comment thread, and the more sites the more Google returns.

      Anyway, you yourself say a site to appeal to young females is required, so . . . any young women reading Wings want a free professional blog site with support from now until Sept 18th ?

    277. schrodingers cat says:

      Scots Renewables
      SEO is useful, ask the rev if he wants this site optimised

    278. Kyle Mackay says:

      That’s me coming out full name, was just ‘K Mackay’ before.

      Off to quarantine now to try to find the instructions for changing the wee icon thingy 🙂

    279. Marker Post says:

      O/T but I see Jackie Baillie in the Scotsman said, “The best way of ending the bedroom tax forever is to elect Ed Miliband in 2015.”

      Come on, Jackie. Firstly, a vote for Ed Miliband could not possibly end it “forever” in UK, it would simply come back under the next Tory government. Secondly, there is a way to really end it in September 2014.

      Vote Yes, Jackie. You know it makes sense.

    280. ronnie anderson says:

      I’ve just watched a 4min piece on Nigel Farage

      Bbc News Watch How hes depicted by the Media.

      His smoking / drinking being show.

      Have a look lads lasses

      another route for complaint as to how Bbc abuse Scottish

      veiwers by inacurate false reporting & bias in faviour

      to BT, will they air those complaints, worth a try.

      contact details on Bbc website NewsWatch.

    281. john king says:

      Now it this doesn’t get the ice coursing through your veins nothing will,

      Sky news: Brussels
      Geert Wilders leader of the Dutch ultra right wing (Partij voor de Vrijheid – PVV (Party for Freedom)has stated today he would like Nigel Farage to join him and Marine le pen leader of The National Front in France to break up the European Union from the inside.
      And if you think ,well a few nutters will not destroy the EU?
      Here’s a look at a few more of their wee pals,,,711990,00.html

    282. Dorothy Devine says:

      Dear Lord!That BT cinema is dire – definitely DON’T give up your day jobs kids!
      Stilted and wooden – mind you I used to say that about Taggart, and I loved that!

    283. john king says:

      Marker Post says
      “O/T but I see Jackie Baillie in the Scotsman said, “The best way of ending the bedroom tax forever is to elect Ed Miliband in 2015.”

      Which would be fine if you could trust the Labour party not to reintroduce it themselves,
      since it was their baby in the first place,
      or does Jackie Baillie think we’ve forgotten that little gem?

    284. john king says:

      Chris Cairns says
      “Their heart tells them to vote Yes but their head (the bit that has read and believed the scare stories) says it’s a bad idea.
      I tell you, if it’s a Yes vote it really will be Scotland the Brave.”

      The thing I fear the most is the anger of the misled and the deluded when shown (post a yes vote) to have been lied to will be the most vocal anti English (are there really any in the independence movement?) and drive even deeper wedges into the north south relationship than we already have, thanks 100% to the Better together campaign whipping up anti Scottish sentiment then blaming it on the SNP.

      These people will have to have someone to take their shame out on and the most obvious target will be the very people who misled them.

      Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me!

    285. Muscleguy says:

      @Simon Chadwick

      I used to be all over Usenet and some of the web under my real name. But then I got cyber stalked. I was very close to going to law to get an injunction against that person. There are nutters out there who do not need a good reason, this person didn’t have one.

    286. dadsarmy says:



    287. North Chiel says:

      Listening to Bbc Scotland interview with David
      Trimble this morning 0820, where interviewer
      Tried to link a yes result as detrimental to the
      Peace process in Northern Ireland.
      Lord Trimble strongly refuted this and alleged that
      The bbc had misrepresented his view.
      A deliberate attempt by BBC Scotland to introduce
      The Irish / west Scotland link into debate.
      Well done to David Trimble for chiding the interviewer
      On this.

    288. dadsarmy says:


      That’s a problem. I’ve seen one poster in the Herald post that their company received a letter sayiing that they sepnt all their time posting pro-indy and did they know about that? The poster owned the company. But another poster (Terry) that he was complained to his Council. Fortunately it didn’t cause him a problem.

      A unionist poster tried to trace me down (Peter Piper), failed. He did trace down another poster and mentioned his company, but I managed to get him to delete the company from his posting.

      Whatever way it goes on 18th September, we all have lives, we all have problems and bills to pay, and perhaps kids to bring up. And there are a lot of nasty people on ‘tinterweb.

    289. David Wardrope says:

      Seems like we’re going for names, so here’s me, I am Hammett96 long time listener, occasional poster. A bit O/T and sorry if this has been asked already but with the Moodys credit rating news showing an A rating for iScotland, did they also do an alternative check to show what the rating would be with a currency union as the ‘A’ rating was dependant on this criteria?

    290. Grouse Beater says:

      That’s a problem.

      More Scotland haters with attitude.

    291. dadsarmy says:

      @Grouse Beater

      You get them whatever the subject, whether it’s fotball or R3V2 of the game Marine Troopers or Mircrosoft v Linux. Probably saves them from torturing puppies.

    292. Robert Peffers says:


      On my first reading of that heading I thought I was about to read an article about the BBC and MSM. Strange language the English that often depends upon context.

      Let’s face it the BBC & MSM does seem to be a dumping ground for the worst in journalism. Mind you there are a few exceptions but the BEEB and MSM suppress them by hiding them away in dim, dank offices and studios deep in the basement levels and well away from public view.

    293. Helena Brown says:

      I agree with Ian that people if they feel comfortable with using their on names, many might find it difficult. Well I have been out in the open since I signed on here but if anyone is looking elsewhere I am Hektorsmum, but this seems to be going and I am using my own name, thanks to having to use Google.
      I am wearing my YES badge and expect that someone will ask me something soon. We are looking for a spot to put the YES sign on the car, trouble with oor wee car is it hasnae got much in the way of windaes and you need them to see out of.

    294. Helena Brown says:

      @ Morag Graham Kerr, may I say I have been addressed as a bloke several times when using Hektorsmum, don’t know how many times I had to go back and say don’t you read, I am his Mum. Then of course I don’t have kids,the dug is not a child, the name is in jest, so then I got involved in a discussion with some bloke in Japan about that. Easier to go back to my own name I think.

    295. lumilumi says:

      I think Ian Brotherhood’s point of using your real name, if possible, is important. It shows that YES voters, even “cybernats” 🙂 are actual, ordinary, real people.

      As Ian and others have pointed out, some of us can’t use our real names for work reasons (teachers is a good example), or don’t want to for family or other reasons. And that’s all right, I don’t want anybody feel pressured to reveal their IRL identity.

      I’m one of those who have work reasons for using a handle rather than my real name. Plus my real name is a very unusual one even in Finland, and totally unpronouncable and unspellable for native English speakers 😀

      (When I’ve lived in English-speaking countries, I’ve always used my (English-pronouncable) middle name to casual acquantaces, friends I’ve taught to say my first name sort of correctly – or they resort to a nickname!)

    296. Robert Peffers says:

      Just heard this old joke again in a local shop.

      First old lady: “Yon referendums really aa aboot that West Lothian Question again”.

      Second old lady, (wearing YES badge): “Aye! The wan whit gans, “Haw Driver – diz this bus gan tae Bathgate”?

    297. Morag says:

      I’ve twice had trouble when using the Rolfe pseudonym. Once as I described above when someone figured out who I was and stirred up trouble because I’d said something rude about him on a forum. Second, a couple of tag-team stalkers, one of whom has gone to an awful lot of trouble to make himself look like a complete prat. I won’t link to the whole story because it might give the creep ideas. (It’s really funny though!)

      The second of the tag-team, the one who was emailing me to tell me that he was going to report me to my employer for “breaking my civil service contract” by moonlighting for MI5 (or maybe it was the CIA I’m not sure), has completely vanished and to be honest I wonder if he has died. He wasn’t a young man.

      So I don’t think being pseudonymous is necessarily much of a help, if you can be identified from your postings anyway. And given what I’ve posted about Lockerbie I’m not hard to identify. And about veterinary homoeopathy before that. So what the hell.

    298. Bob W says:

      @David Wardrope

      With that spelling of your surname, we might have familial connections.


    299. David Wardrope says:

      @Bob W

      And a finer possible distant relation you couldn’t hope to meet 🙂

    300. Bob W says:

      @David Wardrope

      I on the otherhand have been described as thrawn, cynical and just last week, as a possible granny hater (mine was from Hull), by a Noer, who claimed that the Yes campaign is anti-English. :-O

      My son is devastated, he will be unable to post here using his
      given name. 😉

    301. David Wardrope says:

      Ahh the old completely misinformed anti-English card. I don’t feel comfortable denying someone with such a fine name his voice, so for the sake of fairness I’ll post on Mondays, Thursdays, Saturdays and Sundays after 1pm, for clarity’s sake like 🙂

    302. Pro tip, a screenshot like that should be saved as a .png not a .jpg

      Better quality and far smaller file size.

    303. Grendel says:

      As I’m posting on a work PC, I’ll remain anonymous on here.

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