Kicking the hinges off
Some recent comments of mine about how the UK government and European Union wouldn’t – because they couldn’t – strip citizenship from anyone in the event of a Yes vote in the independence referendum brought dissenting responses on Twitter from a few folk who certainly know a thing or two about government.
Their primary arguments were so weak, though, that coming from such able individuals they exemplified how much the establishment is being forced to state obvious untruths in defence of an otherwise perfectly legitimate line of argument. But does politics really have to be this dishonest?
My fundamental reason for posting was that top European Commissioner Jose-Manuel Barroso was busy telling everyone that Scotland would probably not be able to enter the EU if Scots voted for independence, but was refusing to give any significance whatever to the fact that all UK citizens in Scotland would – unless they personally renounced UK citizenship – remain EU citizens covered by all the rights thereof.
So, sure, Scottish secession from the UK might make things a little trickier for countries like Spain, France and Belgium who have their own secessionist issues. But so what? How would the UK and EU look to the world, notably the US and UN, (and Russia, btw, which gave citizens in seceding countries a choice of retaining their Russian citizenship) if they said to millions of citizens:
“Sorry, guys, but bollocks to Article 15 of the UNCHR, we’re stripping you of all the protections and rights you have as citizens. And, guess what, we’re not going to let your new country, which conforms in every way to membership requirements, join the EU either. Ever. So, hey, Turkey, how you doin’ over there, guys?”
One argument from a former senior government official was (no kidding) that if the part of the UK you’re in votes to leave, then your personal citizenship is withdrawn. What? Every UK citizen in Scotland – including those who voted No, including English or Welsh or Irish people just working or studying here for a few years, and any of a hundred other case types – will lose their UK citizenship if Scotland votes Yes?
Maybe he was thinking; “Well, not folk on holiday, or something like that, obviously”, but as he said himself, that would mean the UK government making individual decisions for everyone in Scotland, then going round kicking doors in and confiscating passports. That’s the stuff of comedy, isn’t it? He’s aware of the present immigration and asylum backlog, I trust?
(Especially as all 5.3 million decisions and enforcements would have to be processed in the 18 months while Scotland was still in the UK, after which time UK border guards would of course have no jurisdiction in what would be a foreign country.)
The trickiness for the No camp is that the Yes folk plainly have the upper hand on the citizenship issue. If it’s true that no-one can be stripped of UK/EU citizenship – which it so obviously is – then the Yes camp only need argue that they’d grant Scottish nationality to anyone in Scotland who wanted it, and those who didn’t could simply stay ‘British’. And that’s exactly what the White Paper does.
Worse for the No camp, the UK government’s policy is to accept joint nationality with any recognised UN state in the world, so that allows the Yes camp to point out that it’d be possible to have it both ways – folk could be Scottish AND British in citizenship terms. (A point the UK government recently conceded, in fact, extending the principle not only to current citizens but to any future children.)
The only riposte to this – and it requires that you think everyone in Scotland is a dumbass, and that you’re prepared to tell a blatant lie – is to argue that it would be philosophically and practically possible to strip people’s UK citizenship from them.
“Scottish and British” is an anathema to the No camp. It reduces the ‘price’ to voters of an independence vote many times. Alex Salmond has been cannily exploring the notion of Britishness – noting, for example, that Scotland will remain part of Britain in so far as it’s part of the British Isles. He’s also been flagging how most UK institutions (most notably, the Bank of England and the Queen) would retain their significance in Scotland after independence.
He might be ridiculed for his notion of independence by the No camp, but in truth the No camp’s bonkers argument over citizenship shows how effective they think Salmond’s pro-British stance is (not least with ‘English’ people living in Scotland).
Actually, the Yes camp does have a weakness, but no-one’s bothered to test it yet. It’s that if taking up Scottish nationality was to mean anything at all, it would need to confer benefits upon those who did over those who didn’t. That would, of course, mean saying what you wouldn’t be entitled to if you were a ‘Brit’ living in Scotland.
I think the reason the media, academics and the UK government haven’t pressed this point is primarily because they don’t think Scotland’s going to vote for independence.They don’t think it’s a serious possibility. That’s also why they haven’t even begun to unpack what an insane, dictatorial idea citizenship-stripping is.
The No camp appears to be talking-up citizenship-stripping without caring about the immediate consequences for my constituents. The UK government might say that the questions above are hypothetical, but the idea that it would be prepared to strip citizenship from people is very significant indeed.
(And it has immediate, non-hypothetical implications for people deciding right now whether to stay in, or move to, Scotland. Doesn’t the No camp give a toss about these people? Are they just the collateral damage?)
I’ve put a number of Parliamentary questions down. Perhaps the answers will shed some much-needed light on this whole subject. I’ll let you know when I get them.
peak
Very balanced, thank you Eric. You say though:
Actually, the Yes camp does have a weakness, but no-one’s bothered to test it yet. It’s that if taking up Scottish nationality was to mean anything at all, it would need to confer benefits upon those who did over those who didn’t. That would, of course, mean saying what you wouldn’t be entitled to if you were a ‘Brit’ living in Scotland.
I believe it should and will confer benefits to all that are residents in Scotland regardless of being Scottish or British or both.
about time you surfaced
I live in France.
Am I going to be escorted to Calais and put on a trans channel cattle truck by the Gerdarmes, because I was born in Scotland and it says so on my Passport?es here
I pay me taxes here
At the same time all the Roma camped out beside every cash point, bank door, restaurant and supermarket would be warmly welcomed and doled Social Security?
Lies and completely illogical crap from the No Nutters Inc.
Greenland left the then EEC, now EU in 1985, and yet their population retains EU-citizenship.
Hi Eric
On the off chance your reading below the line….
“Actually, the Yes camp does have a weakness, but no-one’s bothered to test it yet. It’s that if taking up Scottish nationality was to mean anything at all, it would need to confer benefits upon those who did over those who didn’t. That would, of course, mean saying what you wouldn’t be entitled to if you were a ‘Brit’ living in Scotland.”
I see where your coming from ie. ‘whats the point in being ‘Scottish’ if being ‘Scottish’ doesn’t actually mean that much if anything.
But in the days where for example Poles working in Scotland right now have the same legal rights and protections as Brits/Scots…
Is it really that much of a weakness for the YES campaign?
With us all being EUropeans together (assuming we are still ‘in’) isn’t the benefit of Scottish citizenship as simple as having a Passport telling the world you are Scottish?
In an overseas hostage situation when the baddies are collecting passports, would you present your Scottish one or your British one?
Balance and reason,
thanks.
If we make head butting Tories legal (IMHO a good idea) in Scotland Eric might just enhance our Holyrood Parliament.
“But does politics really have to be this dishonest?”
Sadly this underlines the whole debate for me, at present. The potential Orwellian ramifications as mentioned in the above give me as little reason to be concerned as the promise of Universal Childcare give em reason to be excited. Both begin and end in aspiration and rhetorical logic, but no more.
One side is keen to intimidate, while the other to make assertions to concrete solutions which it has singularly failed to evidence. The game being played is tribal and ideological, not substantial, rational or demonstrable. I have no reason as an undecided to favour either at present, and many of my friends feel the same. For someone who isn’t a Nationalist one way or another there seems no reason to fall on either side, and the minute one of the parties involved grasps this and actually offers something someone can get hold of, rather than insubstantial promises, emotional appeals and gurnatees of things it cannot confirm on one hand or fear mongering and complacency on the other, they will enjoy a considerable groundswell of support.
After a “yes” vote, there may be quite a few residents of England looking to establish Scottish citizenship before rUK tries to extricate itself from EU thus losing them their right to live and work anywhere in EU.
I have never personally seen nationality issues as the primary factor in the independence referendum.
For me, it is mostly about smaller government, closer to the people and the fact that increasing powers more locally, means that money and investment almost certainly follow (Look at London… political power is like a magnet to money) and that money will mean a re-balancing of investment into Scotland, as opposed to it being sooked up by London.
Good article.
“… if taking up Scottish nationality was to mean anything at all, it would need to confer benefits upon those who did over those who didn’t.”
Are you coming at national identity from the same perspective of rich US citizens living abroad (they few who are renouncing their US citizenship)? Is nationality purely driven by cost:benefits, is it to do with a desire to determine where power rests, or is it maybe something deeper?
I think Eric’s article does show how ridiculous the position of the ‘No’ campaign is. If they are prepared to openly and blatantly lie about EU citizenship it obviously makes undecided folks think; what else are they misleading us about?
I’m no political campaigner, but I think being found lying is not a good place to be.
OT
Hey Rev
Any chance you could add Kerry Gill from the Daily Express to the ‘Zany Comedy Relief’ Blog Roll…?
Another cracker which makes the beloved Cockers appear calm rational & lucid by comparison !!
http://www.express.co.uk/scotland/460415/COMMENT-Losing-the-independence-battle-Alex-Salmond-will-come-out-fighting-dirty
“If we make head butting Tories legal”
Can’t we make it compulsory?
Thanks, Eric
A welcome contribution Eric.
Personally, I’m very much looking forward to a 1st Edition Scottish Passport.
Not knowledgeable on the kind of areas where EU citizenship entitlements and member state national citizenship entitlements digress.
I’m sure there must be some, and they probably vary.
For example, if a future independent Scotland decided, to switch to a position of charging for tertiary education tuition fees, but to carry on the principle of free education in Scotland by a process of re-imbursement for Scots. Perhaps Scottish citizenship might be used for that?
Or perhaps international representation in Sport could be another?
There are probably quite a few areas where it could be used which are not governed by EU legislation.
Bound to be comparable examples in other EU states already.
Balanced piece, Eric.
Can I ask in light of your linked piece (final para below), might there come a point when you think the game’s a bogey and either not vote in the referendum or, heavens to Betsy, vote Yes?
‘Manifest nonsense. I want Scotland to remain part of the UK, but not on the basis of an argument deploying blatant threats and lies. Surely to God.’
Does anyone have any information on the process by which all those East Germans became EU citizens “overnight”?
If the rules can be adapted to such an extent, then the logical question must be – do we have rules?
BTP may be able to affirm one benefit of future Scottish citizenship that I’ve found in France and other countries:
Utter the words “Je ne suis pas Anglais, Je suis Ecossais.” and see how differently you’re treated by the locals!
I’ve said dozens of times to wingnuts on Twitter or The Herald. How will you strip me of my EU status. They always answer as it I asked WHY, e.g by voting to exit the UK.
Its not why but The HOW is the major question. There isn’t a process to do it even within the EU never mind the UK.
I may never get my head round this one, will it be a crucial issue i may need to debate with someone?
Extraordinary article by Mr Joyce. A MP from Labour who is willing to examine real issues and provide real information.
I’m not being sarcastic or cynical, just impressed. Is it possible there could be more out there?
What is a Brit? Is it person who is a citizen or person residing in the geographical envelope of British Isles regardless of their nationality and country or anyone within the combined territory of the current UK.
Sorry Luke. I completely disagree with you.
Every ‘assertion’ made by the yes group is backed up with evidence from several experts who are not going to be voting in the elections.
http://www.futureukandscotland.ac.uk/blog/currency-reflections-legal-issues
A lot of the info is in the WP but there are several sites also.
http://www.catalannewsagency.com/politics/item/french-study-backs-eu-membership-of-independent-catalonia-and-scotland
http://www.poundsterlinglive.com/breaking-news-articles/877-why-scotland-should-peg-an-independent-currency-to-the-british-pound-sterling-554654
I realise that these sites I have provided might not answer the questions you specifically want answered but the rev has many sites stored, so you could ask him.
The reason I posted them is to show you that all the no campaign has is lies and obfuscation.
The latest one being Gordon Broon threatening folk with ‘possible’ removal of pensions when most of us know people who live abroad who still collect their pensions.
That makes me angry because it is a lie and he knows it.
I’m glad you have raised points which you and your friends are concerned about as that is what we want to know so we can help you towards the answers.
Rev, has the assault on the server changed tack? Or are your hosts changing the defence for the site?
For the first time ever I clicked on an article that showed it had comments for none to appear. I was using W7 and chrome, I copied and pasted the address to opera and all comments now show.
Are you coming at national identity from the same perspective of rich US citizens living abroad (they few who are renouncing their US citizenship)?
Not to answer for Stu, I think to be worthwhile forking out 160quid for a new passport you either wait till its needed to be changed and then decide. If it indeed gives you something specific that you need at that point then you flip. In any case we’ll all be able to keep UK citizenship if eligible today.
I don’t think I’d do it just to prove I’m Scottish although I’m sure there would be some desire there.
I’m trying hard to think of even one positive having another EU state passport gets you e.g Germany or France. I’ve never seen anything.
Derek Bateman’s article about the recent debate;
http://derekbateman1.wordpress.com/2014/02/18/you-have-been-warned/
It is a good point brought up here by Eric Joyce, it has been presented well, perhaps my view of his escapades need another thought.
It also shows that the “White Paper” really has been thought through very well, those who wrote actually do know their stuff and have wisely considered the possible moves from the Unionists as they get ever desperate.
A good article, and something we needed to be aware of. As far as BT/ Unionists are concerned, does these panic moves not just show them up? We are too small, too stupid, etc, etc, etc JUST LET US GO THEN !
Luke, you’ve picked one policy out of god only know’s how many to critique.
What are you interested in?
Enjoyed the article Mr Joyce.
Looking forward to some answers for those questions too.
A yes vote mean as the majority of voting Scots people want to have independent Scottish nationality and logicall they would chose to apply for a Scottish passport, it would also be sensible to keep their UK passport as this would confer all the benefits of the rUK citizenship without future payments into the rUK system.
Nice result.
However, what about Scots born people such as Stu Cambell who now choose to live in the rUK however much they may dislike the UK itself 🙂 ? Would they also be given a Scots passport and therefore be eligible to benefit at any time from a Scots system they were not actually contributing to?
Are they not around 750k people today like Stu who live in the rUK and these people are a potentially large burden on Scotland’s economy? Would globally any Scot’s born or 1st generation born Scot be given a Scottish passport? How many people globally would this be?
I would imagine that any sensible rUK government would ask for reciprocal rights for rUK citizens in Scotland or if not given, will they not alter the rUK systems to a contributory based system to avoid an unfair one way situation?
Scottish entitlements to EU citizenship surely are not in reality going to be taken away but one would imagine over a period of time that Scotland would either join the EU or no new EU passports would be issued and access to EU benefits would at some point be withdrawn.
As the article says it does make it important to define what benefits holding a Scottish passport will give its citizens upon a yes vote – this is the crux of the independence debate along with citizens rights to constitutional control over Scotland’s affairs ( I understand citizen constitutional rights are being decided after the yes/no vote ).
A very interesting debate indeed.
If the rUK exits the EU post 2017 then a Scottish passport may be of significant difference.
“Je ne suis pas Anglais, Je suis Ecossais.”
Aye, always gets a big smile.
Incidentally, my French marriage certificate has my country of residence as ‘Ecosse’. 😉
No need to worry now according to this map?
new uk map.JPG
Only very slightly off-topic, but the EU and the UK are at the core of this address by Viviane Redding
http://tinyurl.com/phbq8ba
Has anyone asked those ‘Internationalists’ in the Labour Party (Duncan H) who don’t believe in borders, if they support this latest BT scaremongering?
‘I don’t believe in putting up borders, except when these borders are put up to stop Scots enjoying their European citizenship.’
Has a hollow ring to it, doesn’t it Duncan.
Would a new constitution in an independent Scotland not be the place to enshrine the rights of citizens?
Do we need EU rights when we can define our own?
For the people by the people, settled will type thing.
eric joyce should now say he is for scotland being an independent country, it would be a brave move, and respected. he has nothing to lose, all he gets from unionists is smear and disrespect while nationalists and splittist bastards like me would welcome him with open arms.
Doesn’t Cheri Blair travel with an Irish passport? What would be the benefit to her of doing that?
I travel to the States a lot, their tougher entry laws and regulations making it easier, one can argue, to gain entry to North Korea.
Whenever I step across the queue line to the custom and immigration guard’s kiosk, thumb and eye prints taken as mandatory exercise, they inspect my British passport and always ask, “Which part of Britain do you come from?”
I answer, London.
The guard responds, “Not the airport, the area?”
Happily, “Scotland” is a satisfactory answer.
They know Britain is made up of two countries plus Wales and Northern Ireland, the Channel Islands, Isle of Man, and Gibralter. They omit the islet of Rockall often thought of as British but actually “UK” belonging to Scotland. (Isle of Rockall Act 1972.)
Saying I am British is too general.
Any body had a Dave Cameron “I just called to say I love you” phone call from BetterTogether forever England yet? Me neither.
“In an overseas hostage situation when the baddies are collecting passports, would you present your Scottish one or your British one”
ooo tricky one would have to balance the odds of being shot for your nationality against the need to retain one of them for when you escape.
OT
Bruce Morton, Jim Sillars, Donald Reid plus MD Michelle Thomson and Ivan McKee from Business for Scotland panel for next event and live stream at Shettleston Juniors, Glasgow on Monday 24th Feb.
If you can’t make it to this free event then watch free online. You will be able to send us your questions via live stream for Q&A.
Scottish Independence Live Events
http://www.facebook.com/ScottishIndependenceLiveEvents
http://www.youtube.com/IndependenceLive
http://new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive
liveindependence@gmail.com
Regarding Nationality questions & rights see HERE:
http://wingsoverscotland.com/nationality-for-nationalists/
The “weakness” you allude to is quite simply resolved. At present non UK citizens can not vote in general elections- only local ones. So there is your benefit of taking out citizenship- you can vote in Scottish general elections!
AND on citizenship see the UK’s own advice HERE:
http://wingsoverscotland.com/walls-come-tumbling-down/
When an argument is rooted in so much obfuscation, it generally means it is too weak to stand up to scrutiny. A perfect example was the Equal Marriage debate, where opponents were coming out with all sorts of banal excuses for being against it, because they knew their core argument – “I just don’t like the idea of two blokes getting married” – didn’t hold water.
So it is with the independence debate. No doubt there are people such as yourself, Eric, who genuinely believe that the case for the union can be made without resorting to lies and misdirection, but clearly most unionists either believe the union is a hard sell to Scots, or they can see the attraction of the Yes argument, so they need to resort to the tactics we see instead.
“Are they not around 750k people today like Stu who live in the rUK and these people are a potentially large burden on Scotland’s economy? Would globally any Scot’s born or 1st generation born Scot be given a Scottish passport?”
The answer to that question is in the White Paper. It’s yes.
Worth a read…..
Land tax…..my how the lairds would hate this.
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/2014/02/17/1774172/guest-post-back-to-the-future-with-scottish-currency/
My UK passport runs out in July. I will not be renewing it so I need to get my holiday in early. I want a Scottish one!
need to read more …
I’m having trouble, like most folks today, getting the updated page views. I have discovered that linking to here through Peter A Bells’ Scoop It website gives me up to date page views. Don’t know why, it just does. Might help.
Prerequisites for EU membership also seems to be each member country must have a central bank. But this is info I picked up in CIF guardian anti Indy ragers. Maybe this is one more continuing sterling zone proposition reasoning and may also be just be just more vote no bollocks.
Roddy Macdonald says:
18 February, 2014 at 1:36 pm
BTP may be able to affirm one benefit of future Scottish citizenship that I’ve found in France and other countries
If I am asked if I am English, I look at the quizzically and ask them if they ask are Belgian. They don’t ask me a second time as someone else usually tells them I am not.
Hello, Have we been got at again. Oh, Those Russians
Good and logical breakdown of the lunacy of Barroso’s, idea that the EU would reject Scotland, and all the EU citizens from other EU countries who study or live in Scotland.
Here’s a man who totally agrees with you.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/henry-mcleish-slams-claims-independent-3157395
SS
My French Driving Licence just says I was born in Glasgow, no mention of the UK or GB.
The logical extension to all this is that there will be a free exchange of people across the UK. All English will be entitled to residency and work in Scotland, and Scottish will be entitled to residency and working in England.
Take it a stage further, residency will allow you to vote and enjoy the same services which ever country you choose.
The only thing a Scottish Passport would do, is affect kids born in Scotland in the future, unless the dual citizenship applied and they took a British Passport as well.
Now imagine that Scotland gets in the EU just as rUK are leaving. Do you think anything is going to change? EU citizens will be able to work in Scotland, but not in England.
There may then need to be a border.
But the perversity is that it would be England that would be creating the border as a result of exiting the European Union, not the result of the Scottish exiting the British Union.
Oh how the arguments will change then.
Would be interesting to guage the impact of the Barroso scare re the voting intentions of EU citizens living and working in Scotland as there may be a large amount of them in fear of their status. Would be difficult I expect to get any meaningful sample in one of the Revs Poll questions.
O/T Rev.
Here’s Gordon Brown scaremongering by intimating pensions in Scotland, won’t be a British state pension, and that there’s not enough oil left to pay for pensions, in Scotland.
Gordon Brown not content with deeply damaging the UK economy, now wants to try and sink the Scottish economy as well, the only person left in the universe, who doesn’t know Gordon Brown has no credibility is Gordon Brown himself.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10646056/Gordon-Brown-warns-Scots-independence-means-losing-British-state-pension.html
Excellent article, Eric. Thank you for contributing.
Scaring folk with contorted stories and downright lies must be exacting a heavy toll on BT. It is becoming painfully obvious, even to those who haven’t being paying much attention up to now.
No thoughts about joining LFI? You must know by now that the Labour party that many people aspire to in Scotland will not be feasible unless there is a YES vote in Sept.
Anybody want to vote in a French Poll about whether Scotland should be inependent, just click below and then click the OUI button.
2 to 1 so far OUI
http://www.lepoint.fr/sondages-oui-non/approuvez-vous-le-desir-d-independance-des-ecossais-18-02-2014-1792863_1923.php
“So, sure, Scottish secession from the UK”.
Um? Seceding? We are ending the UK, not leaving it. There will be no UK citizens after independence, only Scottish citizens and Greater England citizens.
O/T I wrote to the electoral Commission and asked if they could do anything about BBC bias, here is their answer.
” Thank you for your email dated 7 February 2014.
The Electoral Commission is responsible for setting the standards for well-run elections and referendums and for regulating party and election finance. However, we have no remit in relation to the regulation of political balance in broadcasting output.
Political impartiality in broadcast media is covered by the editorial guidelines relevant to that particular broadcaster. The BBC Trust is responsible for ensuring compliance with the BBC’s editorial guidelines on broadcasting during an election (the BBC is currently developing guidelines for the Scottish referendum). Ofcom is responsible for regulating commercial broadcasters’ compliance with the Ofcom Broadcasting Code.
News reports, features and editorials in print or online media are not subject to electoral law.”
Yours sincerely
Andy B
Gordon Brown should have a 1,000 mile exclusion zone placed around him and denied sharp objects and any communication device more evolved than semaphore.
Jonah Brown, says it all.
@Eric Joyce
Great article.
@Skier
Normally it leads to a question as to what we meant by letting their queen get her head chopped off by les anglais. I saw a comment along those lines recently. Can’t find it. But the below the line comments on the mainstream French media are interesting:
http://www.latribune.fr/actualites/economie/union-europeenne/20140216trib000815571/barroso-douche-les-espoirs-de-l-ecosse-d-integrer-l-union-europeenne.html
http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/reactions/2014/02/16/l-avertissement-de-barroso-a-l-ecosse_4367549_3214.html
http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2014/01/17/01003-20140117ARTFIG00472-independance-londres-menace-l-ecosse-d-isolement.php
But does politics really have to be this dishonest?
so asks Eric an ex Labour MP, why then for all your time in Parliament did you stand on a “Scottish Labour Badge” when you knew full well that was a lie?
Why did you not resign from Parliament when you knew Blair had lied about Iraq?
It is amazing as soon as politicians careers are “over” they develop a conscience and want to be seen to say and do the right things.
The time to have had the honesty thing Eric was when you were in a time and place where it could have made a difference.
That said I enjoy your articles these days, shorn of Labour Party dogma and blind loyalty
Here’s Leo McKinstry, of the Express,spouting his nonsense, such as, all Scottish nationalists see themselves as victims of English imperialism, and that the poor wee souls are oppressed somehow.
McKinstry goes on to say, that Scots “Braveheart Fantasies” have been punctured by George Osborne. what a sanctimonious plonker Mr McKinstry is.
http://www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/leo-mckinstry/460150/Scottish-First-Minister-Alex-Salmond-s-misty-nationalism-fails-to-gain-currency
If that DoDos ever hatch ma egg, will I be a Squab or a
Fledgeling Winger.
Well done Eric Joyce, I await your next post.
Sometimes I am a bear of relatively little brain. So: what’s the correct response when BritNats tell me that I’ll no longer be an EU citizen because it’s predicated on me being a citizen of an EU member (UK), which I’d no longer be if I became a Scottish citizen (until Scotland gets admitted)?
Is it:
a) The above-mentioned predication isn’t how it works (in which case: explanatory links please!)
b) I’m still a UK citizen (even if I also choose to be a Scottish one) with the EU citizenship which that implies
c) …?
Tobermory
Enjoyed the article Mr Joyce.
“Sometimes I am a bear of relatively little brain. So: what’s the correct response when BritNats tell me that I’ll no longer be an EU citizen because it’s predicated on me being a citizen of an EU member (UK), which I’d no longer be if I became a Scottish citizen (until Scotland gets admitted)?”
The answer is that you’ll continue to be a citizen of the UK even if Scotland is independent. The UK government accepted recently that Scots would retain UK citizenship, as would their present and future children. There’s a link in the article.
Perhaps more significant than the stripping citizenship thing, how does the EU plan to sort out the mass migration of millions of Scots working in other EU countries and EU citizens working in Scotland who no longer have any automatic right to be where they are…
According to Barosso’s logic, the EU are planning to potentially create the biggest displacement of people in Europe since the 2nd World War (more than were displaced during the Balkan conflicts!)? The organisation which proclaims one of it’s central pillars as democracy, and pretty much all the rest about free trade? That’s what we’re supposed to believe? Like so much we’re being told, thinking about the next step for even one second immediately shows what we’re being told as being complete baws. I’m getting a bit sick of being treated like a fecking idiot tbh.
BBC news 24 going with Broons pension scare. Surely this stuff is getting obvious now.
My ‘British’ passport runs out in 2017. I’m getting a Scottish one as soon as I can, and the ‘British’ one will be retired and never replaced.
BBC news 24 going with Broons pension scare. Surely this stuff is getting obvious now.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1547173/Browns-pension-grab-secret-is-revealed.html
http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2014/02/what-does-scotland-think-about-more-devolution/
As C. Gray asks in the comments – What was the second preference of devo maxers?
Not sure that our cause is strengthened with the arrival of Eric Joyce on this Web Page.
Perhaps more significant than the stripping citizenship thing, how does the EU plan to sort out the mass migration of millions of Scots working in other EU countries and EU citizens working in Scotland who no longer have any automatic right to be where they are…
This was partially answered above in that all Scottish citizens at the point of independence would also have dual UK nationality and that nationality would allow them free movement in the EU.
As for those EU workers who live and work in Scotland that would be totally up to the Scottish government to decide whether to keep that free movement or impose restrictions.
All this, of course is very hypothetical as even if EU entry negotiations were to take slightly more than 18 months you could probably put good money on the fact that the EU and Scotland would agree some kind of temporary transitional provisions to continue current EU laws and regulations pending a final agreement.
Cheers Rev. Found the link I had missed I the article – all is clearer now!
One thing we shouldn’t overlook here is that Durao Barroso is a right-wing nutjob just like his scumbag Tory allies in England. The Portuguese people more or less threw him out the country after he gave his full support to Tony Blair in his blood-soaked murderous rampage in Iraq. It is hardly surprising, therefore, to learn that a neo-conman like Durao Barroso is an enemy of democracy and a spiv whose only function is to represent the interests of big business in Brussels (he is a great fan of the PFI/PPP projects that are in part to blame for the destruction of the Portuguese economy). Durao Barroso has no understanding of Scotland’s past, her present or her future and should be told in no uncertain terms to butt out of the debate until he has undertaken steps to put an end to his ignorance. From what I’ve been hearing, Brussels has been inundated with emails from people complaining about his ridiculous intervention. His dalliances with the English Tories will come back to haunt him and he’ll live to rue the day.
Rod Mac Says: “so asks Eric an ex Labour MP, why then for all your time in Parliament did you stand on a “Scottish Labour Badge” when you knew full well that was a lie?”
Whatever you may feel about labour MP’s, people like Eric do have a good insight into their thinking, so it’s well worth us listening to what he has to say.
If we only listen to ‘our own’ how will we reach the traditional Labour voters, that we all know we must?
Like another commenter has said though, we know BT will continue to lie, so when will Eric join the ‘Yes’ side?
Over to you Eric…
Note the relevance of the recent UK Supreme Court decision in Al Jedda. The Home Secretary, Theresa May, lost an appeal to remove his citizenship “in the first case of its kind to reach the Supreme Court. The judges ruled unanimously yesterday that the Home Secretary’s actions would illegally make the man, Hilal al-Jedda, stateless.”
http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2013/10/10/supreme-court-rules-citizenship-stripping-order-was-illegal/
When Eric was having his trouble (underlying problems possibly), we all thought he had lost the plot. It may be he already knew what was afoot from Westminster and was so distressed he turned to the bottle. Well welcome back Eric we need you and more like you.
I was born abroad but have lived in Scotland since youth; 50 years now. During my entire life I have been denied UK citizenship and the human rights and freedoms that go with it. Although always a resident of Scotland, my every step has been controlled by officials in Croydon (formerly in London) who operate under English Common Law. I’ve only managed to remain in my home because Scots Civil Law is more flexible in issues such as domicile. But citizenship, visas, work-permits and all other issues of personal rights are still retained by the English officials. According to the White Paper, as a lifelong Scottish resident I will automatically be eligible for Scottish citizenship in the event of independence; 50 years of being told No has convinced me that UK citizenship for people like me will never be an option.
Why would Scottish citizenship need to confer benefits not afforded to British citizens resident in Scotland? EU law explicitly forbids discrimination between EU citizens on the grounds of nationality, and it seems likely that realpolitik will result in both Scotland and the remainder of the UK being member states of the EU. In these circumstances, the difference between being a Scottish citizen or a British citizen would be in regard to relationships with non-EU countries. As a theoretical example, the Russians could decide to introduce visa restrictions for rUK citizens but not Scottish citizens.
In the event that one or both countries end up outside the EU (and given the current trajectory of public opinion in England, it may well be rUK that finds itself in that position), it would seem most likely that rUK would agree a common approach with the remaining EU, which would also cover Scotland. It is plausible to imagine that rUK and Scotland might negotatiate an even closer relationship between themselves in this situation, e.g. retention of a common travel area.
Should both countries find themselves outside the EU, then it seems reasonable to conclude that the status quo would remain in place, unless the principle of reciprocity dictates otherwise. In other words, things would be kept as they are unless one country was to curtail the rights granted in their territory to citizens of the other country, and this would most likely be met by an equivalent curtailment in the reverse direction.
Here’s a belter that needs sorted out.
Scottish independence: Scotland’s ‘jolly fat man Alex Salmond warns: the ‘George Tax’ from of all places, The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow Uni
http://glasgowunihumanrights.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/scottish-independence-scotlands-jolly_17.html
@Rev C – I’m really sorry, but I just don’t get your reference to Article 15 of the UNCHR. This states;
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality
EU citizenship is not nationality, so if it was deemed that iScotland had, in effect, revoked it’s EU membership, Scots would still be Scottish and would therefore have a nationality, so Article 15 isn’t relevant.
It would therefore seem highly illogical if, in the extremely unlikely event that Scotland left the EU to suggest that Scots would retain EU citizenship. That would be plain barmy. Of course, the technical practicalities would be extraordinarily complex, but not overly so. The UK could simply reissue passports to it’s citizens, but it would still be messy.
The Greenland case is entirely unhelpful as a precedent, as Greenlanders remained Danish citizens, but a special case was made for them to leave the EU.
However, I see all this as being completely academic, as I don’t believe the SNP would propose actual independence until EU membership has been agreed. I’m quite tickled with the way you quote spurious legislation as evidence that entirely logical things can’t happen post independence.
“I’m quite tickled with the way you quote spurious legislation as evidence that entirely logical things can’t happen post independence.”
I’m quite tickled that you mistake me for Eric Joyce.
Why in god’s name are you quoting Article 15 of the UN charter as your ‘right’ to remain in the EU having never signed a single treaty with another EU state because ‘Scotland’ does not exist in the context of the EU
•(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
•(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
Point 1 – scottish (duh!)
Point 2 – when your passport needs renewing you will have to commit to remaining British or ‘converting’ to Scottish nationality.
The charter of human rights wasn’t created so dodgy scottish lawyers could attempt to argue an obscure legal point which would conveniently allow iScotland to circumvent the EU electorate’s right to decide.
Get real – you are not being shot at, tortured or starved
and the UN charter will not overule EU law – all member states have to be consulted, and they won’t be bullied by a non EU country.
I cannot believe that the scottish DKs would fall for such a lame arguement – you insult their intelligence
@Alec
You completely miss the point. Citizenship of the EU has been in force via the Maastrich treaty since the early nineties and as such is supplementary to your country citizenship.
EU ‘citizenship’ is what allows you to vote in the EU elections… gives free movement, employment and settlement.
What you are suggesting is these rights would be revoked automatically and we’d return to National Citizenship only…
Complete nonsense.
“Doesn’t the No camp give a toss about these people? Are they just the collateral damage?”
Probably many garden variety “NOs” do actually care about people in Scotland and are simply misguided or brain-washed. But the people behind them do not. This is why “love-bombing” so ill fits the “no” campaign.
Westminster et al want Scotland’s oil and gas, large estates to play the lord of the manor on, a place to park various radioactive items and many like the whisky. The place is useful real estate worth hanging on to – the people of the place, however, are perfectly redundant as they are replaceable by some of the millions of third worlders who would put up with anything as long as they had food in their stomachs and a roof over their heads.
Scots per se, “near Scots” and anyone else deemed expendable, are not even collateral damage – a stroke of a pen and a retroactive vote removes them – they are just a mild incovenience.
Can you imagine the situation. Imagine rUK still in EU. iScotland told to reapply for the EU.
In the meantime, we all hold British / EU passports? They cannot revoke the passports in any respect. So all EU rights still apply.
There is no mechanism for deciding who would be part of rUK/EU or who would only be Scottish.
For this reason alone, Scotland would be fast tracked into the EU.
Thanks for v interesting comments. Three quick points from me. First, in the ‘benefits of Scottish nationality’ bit I was really referring to things like passports, consular assistance abroad, perhaps entitlement to pensions and so forth. There would need to be benefits to citizenship or it would have no meaning, it seems to me. Second, Alec (near the end of comments), re: Article 15, it’s the arbitrary deprivation which would create the sticking point. There really couldn’t be any question of depriving people of UK citizenship simply because they were in Scotland following a vote to become independent. It’s up to UK citizens to choose where to live – and of course many live abroad – not the UK government to tell them. Finally, the EU is v serious about its passport/External Service effort – it’s a core part of the alliance. Barroso’s comments are actually pretty shocking; they extend from the politics of Belgium, Spain and, to a lesser degree, France. He knows they aren’t true – they’re essentially a barefaced lie.
@pauls
“Point 2 – when your passport needs renewing you will have to commit to remaining British or ‘converting’ to Scottish nationality.”
No you won’t. Dual nationality is allowable for a start. And how many people (English and Scottish) living in Scotland will just ‘not bother’? They will keep their British Passport since its easier. They would be permanent residents of Scotland at the very least.
As I said for months now… the only people that this will affect are kids born in Scotland after Independence. They’d automatically be Scottish with a right to apply for a British Passport.
When are people going to wake up to a vision of the future on these islands that is collaborative, cooperative and common sense.
The only inconvenience of Scottish Independence is to Westminster, the MPs and the establishment. It will not hurt ordinary people on either side of the border.
“I’m quite tickled that you mistake me for Eric Joyce.”
That’s the biggest LOL! moment for days… Thanks for that, Stu!
@Grumpomcchief
“Not sure that our cause is strengthened with the arrival of Eric Joyce on this Web Page.”
What do you mean by that? You do know that Eric Joyce has been “on this Web Page” before, don’t you?
@pauls
“Get real – you are not being shot at, tortured or starved
and the UN charter will not overule EU law – all member states have to be consulted, and they won’t be bullied by a non EU country.
I cannot believe that the scottish DKs would fall for such a lame arguement – you insult their intelligence”
I think you need too ‘Get Real’ .. the reality is that the average resident of Scotland is a citizen of the EU with whatever rights that delivers.
Just how do you think these rights can be removed? They cannot. Imagine UK remains in and iScotland is out.
Take myself for example. I have a place in Brussels. I travel there often. I do this on my British / EU passport.
Now how exactly are they going to take it from me?
Independence? Whats that? I never voted for it. I am with my rUK cousins. Sure, I am resident in Scotland. I work in Scotland, I pay my taxes in Scotland.
Complete nonsense that they are going to object to iScotland.
Now imagine the rUK voted out as well…
Do you really imagine that UK citizens in Spain would have to hardback their passports and revert to some kind of visitor visa again.
Its all bollocks. iScotland will be fast tracked. There will be zero issues. Because to object there has to be a valid reason given.
@Eric
“The only inconvenience of Scottish Independence is to Westminster, the MPs and the establishment. It will not hurt ordinary people on either side of the border.”
Great comment! That should be printed on banners in ten-feet tall letters and hung on billboards throughout Scotland. (The entire UK would be better, but unlikely to be ‘allowed’ outwith Scotland’s borders – and more’s the pity.)
@ Bugger the Panda
@ Scot. Skier
I know how you guys feel with your Ecossais.
When I applied for my German driving licence I wrote down for the place of birth/country – Fraserburgh /Schottland and that is what it says thereafter in my licence. 🙂
When I get stopped by the police it’s “Ah, ein Schotte, that’s nice”
I still have to pay the fine though…!
@Dal Riata
Thanks. It sounds even better now you have pointed it out and I read it again. LOL
@Eric – “You completely miss the point. Citizenship of the EU has been in force via the Maastrich treaty since the early nineties and as such is supplementary to your country citizenship. EU ‘citizenship’ is what allows you to vote in the EU elections… gives free movement, employment and settlement. What you are suggesting is these rights would be revoked automatically and we’d return to National Citizenship only…
Complete nonsense.”
Having checked the Maastrich treaty, I think you are wrong. It says;
“Citizenship of the Union is hereby established. Every person holding the nationality of a Member State shall be a citizen of the Union. Citizenship of the Union shall be additional to and not replace national citizenship.”
The key bit here is where it says “Every person holding the nationality of a Member State….”. Were Scotland to become independent, and if negotiations to remain/rejoin* [*delete according to preference] the EU failed, then Scots would not be citizens of a Member State. Pretty obviously, they would not therefore be EU citizens.
The EU website itself says “Any person who holds the nationality of an EU country is automatically also an EU citizen. EU citizenship is additional to and does not replace national citizenship. It is for each EU country to lay down the conditions for the acquisition and loss of nationality of that country.”
Again, it’s very clear – if your country is not in the EU, your citizens cannot have EU access.
I’m actually extremely surprised that there has been the slightest debate over this. It would be fundamentally weird if citizens of a country not in the EU could be EU citizens.
But as I say, this is angels on pin heads stuff – the SNP is not going to leave the UK unless the position on EU membership is clear.
@Rev C – confused by your comment re Eric Joyce. Your original post doesn’t refer to him at all, so I assumed all the comments were yours. Not sure if this is the case?
Alec
What would the position be regarding dual citizenship then? The UK being a country that permits holding two passports.
The whole thing would be a ridiculous mess. However, even a lukewarm EU type like me can see Barroso overstepped the mark. You may wish he was right but I don’t think he was and neither do a fair number of other EU types.
Wonder who will take his job later this year. We might even get someone sympathetic. 😉
“The key bit here is where it says “Every person holding the nationality of a Member State….”. Were Scotland to become independent, and if negotiations to remain/rejoin* [*delete according to preference] the EU failed, then Scots would not be citizens of a Member State. Pretty obviously, they would not therefore be EU citizens.”
Didn’t you read the article at all? They will, because they’ll still be citizens of the (r)UK.
“confused by your comment re Eric Joyce. Your original post doesn’t refer to him at all, so I assumed all the comments were yours. Not sure if this is the case?”
I didn’t write the article you cited. Eric Joyce did.
@Alec
I made it clear that EU citizenship was supplementary. (You spend three quarters of your answer pointing this out)
With regards you other comment
“Again, it’s very clear – if your country is not in the EU, your citizens cannot have EU access.”
Sure… Tobago and North Korea are not in the EU… so they won’t have EU access. On that you are correct.
Where you are determined to ignore the point… residents of Scotland will still hold British Passports after independence. There will be no logic, rationale or reason for the EU to expel / deny iScotland membership/ continuity.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/eamonnfingleton/2014/02/18/as-scotland-mulls-independence-a-stupid-london-plays-it-dirty/
@Alec – exactly. so the fUK will be in the same position, such arrogance that fUK is the successor state and Scotland has no right of claim whatsoever, personally I could not give a monkey’s about the EU or currency but I will vote yes to end a parliamentary union which does not work in the best interests of the people of Scotland.
@Rev C – I understand. I didn’t realise it was not authored by yourself. Apologies.
Eric
I think you’re misunderstanding the law in respect of British citizenship. Part 1 of the British Nationality Act 1981 specifies who, as a matter of law, is a British citizen. Most people acquire it by being born in the United Kingdom – see section 1 of 1981 Act for persons born after the commencement of the Act, and section 11 (and the predecessor nationality Acts) for persons born before that date.
‘United Kingdom’ is defined for the purpose of all UK legislation in Schedule 1 to the Interpretation Act 1978 as Great Britain and Northern Ireland. A necessary consequence of Scottish independence would be an amendment of that definition to exclude Scotland – otherwise Westminster legislation with UK extent would continue to apply to an independent Scotland.
On the date that definition change takes effect, anyone born in Scotland would cease to be a British citizen under the 1981, unless they qualify under one of the other provisions of that Act. Westminster could of course amend the 1981 Act, or include a savings provision in the amendment to the 1978 Act, to allow Scottish people who were British citizens prior to independence to retain British citizenship, but it’s difficult to see why they would do so.
The fact that many Scots currently hold UK passports is irrelevant – British citizenship flows from the 1981, not from possession of a passport.
Interesting read, Eric, though this sent a chill up my spine:
The only riposte to this – and it requires that you think everyone in Scotland is a dumbass, and that you’re prepared to tell a blatant lie – is to argue that it would be philosophically and practically possible to strip people’s UK citizenship from them.
That it would be philosophically or practically possible is one thing, but if there’s anything I’ve learned from the UK Government, it’s that they wouldn’t let little things like that get in the way of doing what they want.
@pauls: Get real – you are not being shot at, tortured or starved
I’m afraid it’s you who has to “get real.” The people of Britain ARE being attacked, tortured and starved. How else can you describe the idealogically-driven DWP incentives which have seen 10,000 people die within six months of losing their disability benefits, the rise of food banks and epidemic of people suffering malnutrition, legislation which was found to break the EU convention of human rights, thousands of elderly people dying because they cannot afford to heat their homes in an oil-producing country, hundreds of people being evicted from their homes to make room for fracking exploration, people like Jean Charles de Menezez, Ian Tomlinson and more being murdered by corrupt police, British citizens extradited without trial or charge… I can go on.
You don’t have to declare martial law or hold daily massacres in Trafalgar Square to attack, torture or starve the people.
“I think you’re misunderstanding the law in respect of British citizenship”
I think it’s remarkable that you’re explaining it to the Home Secretary. Did you bother to read the Herald piece? The point is that changes don’t apply retrospectively. If you’re a British citizen now, it won’t be taken away from you on Scottish independence. You’ll still be a British citizen and so will your children. After that, being born in Scotland will no longer qualify you.
Alec, please explain why Greenland left the EC yet their citizens retain EU membership rights?
@Marc
Complete nonsense.
On what basis would my passport be revoked? I was born in UK. This is my country. My brother and I were both born in North Britain. I live in Scotland now, he lives in England.
Are you beginning to see reality now?
The reality is you cannot take away my UK or rUK passport. So the effect is the UK will pretty much remain ‘as is’ with regards to citizenship and passports for at least a generation.
Now I might choose to take a Scottish Passport and throw away my UK one. But since iScotland will grant free access to all rUK citizens and passport holders, there will be a quid pro quo … My Scottish Passport will allow me to reside and work in rUK.
Easy peasy and common sense. There will be free exchange of people and there will be no borders to speak of.
Ironic that the nationalists are as desperate to cling on to dual nationality as they are to gain independence?
Be that as it may, dual nationality is a highly pragmatic solution to any transitional period that may occur.
The real issue of EU membership is whether Scotland would retain current levels of CAP receipts, exemption from the Schengen accord, relaxation of EU tariffs, its MEPs and a pro rata share of the rebate – amongst other benefits.
It won’t – the continuing state retains all those rights as well as the liabilities for debt.
It’s not ‘english arrogance’ which assumes rUK is the continuing state, well established international law has determined that fact.
Otherwise the EU could kiss goodbye to the UK’s 44 billion
contribution
(I presume Scotland has given up on setting an international precedent by becoming the 1st case of joint continuation?)
I believe Barosso was commenting on the realpolitik of Scotland’s application – there are several countries who would exercise their veto in an instant, for a variety of reasons.
On the other hand I firmly believe iScotland’s application as a ‘new’ member state would be massively fast tracked, comfortably within the 4 years Sweden took, with lots of interim concessions being granted.
So as an impartial observer I am bemused as to why the SNP
have taken such an unworkable position on Europe when plan B would be easy to ‘sell’ to the scottish electorate?
@Pauls – How many fucking times – We are already in the fucking EU vote yes or vote no we will still be in the fucking EU so tell me how the fuck you can fast track a nation which is already in. There is no precedent for this situation so fuck off
lost the plot a bit there – sorry folks
Pauls
I can’t be bothered looking for it when the football is on particularly because you are just trolling, however there is an article on or by a lawyer explaining the issues about status of fUK and iScotland as they might apply over a range of international organisations. It might be in the reference section. It is by no means clear that fUK will be the continuing state in ALL the circumstances EU, UN etc
I think there will be some miles to travel with this one.
And truth is I don’t really care if I don’t have a UK passport. Can you explain though why Ireland is not a foreign country?
@Croompenstein – The problem is this. The UK is a member of the EU. An independent Scotland, as a separate entity, is not. So although I agree with many posters here that an independent Scotland wouldn’t face insurmountable difficulties in joining the EU in its own right, this would require the agreement of 27 member states all with their own agendas and negotiating positions.
And that’s going to take time – far longer, in my view, than the SNP currently suggests.
Compared to the other issues involved, citizenship is a triviality.
@ Pauls – While I’m at it, yes the Republic of Ireland is indeed a foreign county – ask any Irishman!
Pauls
My students are writing a masters level essay that includes a portion on Scotland and rUK’s position if Scotland votes Yes. Can you recommend any sources for your point about well established international law?
On 2nd thoughts, @Pauls
Can you point me to the place in any EU treaty that will see us outside the EU if we vote Yes. As I understand it article 50 of the relevant treaty (Lisbon?) sets out the arrangements for a country to leave. It took Greenland 2 years to negotiate its ‘release’ and we don’t want to leave. So when you are ready lets have the relevant bits.