The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland


A fair assessment

Posted on October 17, 2014 by

Mark Steel in the Independent, 16 October 2014:

“Maybe one way they can reverse this is to try a more forthright approach, and to start with they could say: ‘If the Scottish are so daft as to believe our vow, maybe that proves they’re not fit to run their own country anyway, the idiots.'”

Craig Murray said something quite similar recently from the other side, as it were, and at the moment we’re finding it quite tough to disagree with either of them.

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

382 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
a2

That’ll be why the Labour people who supported a no vote aren’t running the country then I guess.

Nobby Power

Tough to read and absorb, but Mr Steele has a nugget of truth in the core of that.

JimnArlene

The highlighted paragraph, sums up unionist thinking.

A.N.Surgent

Getting less inclined to watch Max Keiser.He always has a wee dig about how stupid,daft and other less gentle terms aimed at Scots, giving up their chance to dump the london elite. It cuts deep.

[…] A fair assessment […]

Bob Agassi

Let them eat cake!

Ghengis D'Midgies

Brainwashed by the BBC.

MVH

I’m going to try that with my bank manager Monday. Hey, we both knew I never had any intention of paying that credit card! So sue me, sucker 🙂

yesindyref2

It seems to me that the opinion poll showing YES ahead woke up the London-based media, but then an opinion poll is a poll after all. Perhaps what really woke them up was the vote itself – 45% YES. That was proof of how many of us wanted Independence, in a record-breaking turnout.

Since then there seems to have been a few more interesting articles in the non-Scottish MSM, and perhaps a bit more of a sympathetic and understanding slant on it. Of course, they are also into the tribal Tory v Labour politics, but perhaps there is a good referendum legacy in the non-Scottish MSM, a legacy that may help next time.

Pam McMahon

Can’t disagree with it either. Thank God the nay-sayers saved us from a self-seeking, pocket-lining, bunch of political wankers…oh, wait a minute,,,

Capella

Mark Steel is a comedian, and pretty funny too. But I wouldn’t go to a comedian for political analysis. If he wasn’t living in Scotland for 2 years before the referendum then he will never have experienced the level of scary propaganda people were subjected to. Others in Quebec, Greece and now Catalonia do know about it.
What was the Independent’s position on “Independence”?

[…] A fair assessment […]

Andy-B

So how do we get from 45% to 51% without offending anyone?

fred blogger

i, like many, feel indyscot is a no brainier, and in many ways calling someone an idiot is a compliment.
it reminds me of holding a steel drift and saying to the person with the sledge hammer “i nod my head and you hit it.”
beyond comprehension, sums it up.
wtf, despair.
i certainly relate with graig’s fatherly frustration, “you blithering idiots, what were you thinking!

yesindyref2

Capella
The Independent had some good articles at times on indy, and so did the FT, Grun and even Telegraph. I think their understanding improved a bit from what Salmond described in better words, as ignorant institutional anti-provincial bias. Same went, by the way, for the Beeb and ITV.

A fair bit of the bias wasn’t deliberate, just thick.

kininvie

Thing is – it didn’t matter whether you believed the vow or not….it gave you an excuse to vote No if you were fearful of the future (and a lot of people were – even the soft Yes people).

It’s that fear that we have to overcome somehow. Given the choice ‘would you rather be shafted by an unknown but terribly risky future or by a bunch of twats that at least you think you know something about?’ a lot of people voted for what they perceived as the less painful option.

fred blogger

Andy-B
i expect the reality is that we’re already over 50% now.
but there is no need to offend anyone simply present the facts.
more assurance on pensions NHS welfare that sort of thing.

Murray McCallum

Mark Steel really does nail these articles.

Consider for one micro second the Proud Scots Buts that think UKOK people are laughing with them.

Capella

I don’t believe people did believe the Vow. But some did believe the orchestrated promises of Devo Max, Home Rule and Federalism from Gordon Brown, George Galloway and Alistair Darling, spokesmen for the Better together campaign, in the 2 weeks before the vote, which the Vow appeared to back up. Lord Ashcroft’s research showed that 25% believed it. That’s 500,000 votes.
That’s a lot of disappointed people out there who could benefit from some information to counter the propaganda.

Bob Sinclair

Ouch, that bloody well hurt, but Mark Steel pretty much nailed it there.

galamcennalath

I don’t feel quite so harsh to some of the NOs.

When it comes to politics, we Wingers use the Internet, we read widely, we exchange views and ideas, we criticise, we think! Not everyone fits that description. A lot of people somehow manage to ignore politics and get on with other aspects of life. When they must make a decision it’s not surprising they look first to the media and the BBC. And, if they look no further they aren’t actually going to get the info they need! Ignorance leads to poor decision making.

Then there’s the whole risk and fear thing. We feared a No vote and felt the risk was staying in the Union. Again, huge numbers of people felt they were justified in believing the BBC and time served elected representatives. We all know they spread fear on an industrial scale.

And, promises. We Wingers thought they were lies. Many others, for all the above reasons felt justified in accepting promises, vows, offers at face value.

I feel sorry for a big chunk of No voters. They believed they lived in a mature democracy with a free media and honourable elected representatives. They got that all wrong and made the wrong decision.

Perhaps I’m suggesting half of No voters, have a perception which is blinkered into believing what is actually corrupt and self serving, is to them largely wholesome and moral.

They need to have their eyes opened through being exposed as much as possible to our alternative and more realistic view of reality.

As others have said often, we won’t convert them by abusing them.

Capella

Scot Goes Pop has some interesting poll figures
Scottish voting intentions for the May 2015 UK general election :

SNP 42.1% (-0.7)
Labour 24.9% (-2.1)
Conservatives 18.2% (+2.5)
Liberal Democrats 6.4% (-0.6)
UKIP 5.1% (+0.8)
Greens 2.6% (+0.5)

caledonia

why is this not simple
vote yes get independence
vote no get the vow
If no vow then vote void
simples

Valerie

Can’t believe UKIP are polling more than the Greens in all these polls, it’s really scary.

creag an tuirc

Scottish unionist MPs: The only politicians in the world that got into politics to change things, but refuse/don’t want the powers to make those changes. Oh wait, that’s right. They’ll stomp down to Westminster and force change on the establishment.

Capella

@ valerie
“Can’t believe UKIP are polling more than the Greens in all these polls, it’s really scary.”
I think this illustrates the power of propaganda. The BBC push Nigel Farage UKIP daily. They are to feature in the TV debates while the Greens and SNP are excluded.

Swami Backverandah

I read Steel’s article, and though I usually enjoy his comedic slant, this time I think he’s off.
Notwithstanding the promises of further powers made to the voters prior to referendum day, the fact that many elderly people and particularly pensioners were misled about the future financial situation by politicians and their campaigning mouthpieces, are no more ‘stupid’ than those who take financial advice from those in positions to give it, ie bank staff, insurance agents, etc. and are misled by the sales pitch and sign up for something they are not fully informed about, or those who fall prey to any other con.
This amounts to deception, and in the current cases of banks mis-selling PPI and the like, amounts to an offence that requires compensation for wrongdoing.
Steel would have been closer to the truth, and had more impact, pointing this out.

jacksg

I was reminded earlier tonight of a programme at the millennium one of those ‘who is the Greatest Britain’ type shows.

Mo Mowlan choose Winston Churchill,and i remember thinking at the time eh? surely she would have picked one of the great thinkers,or social reformer’s but, no she choose the ultimate Unionist.

What was her reasoning? he was a great war leader who had saved Britain during the War.

Says it all really about New Labour.

liz

The folk who got their info from outwith the MSM/BBC were much more likely to be Yes voters, except the I’m alright Jacks and the Proud Scots.

There was an article which mentioned Arran where the demographic might point to a no vote but it was overall Yes, because they don’t rely on the printed press much due to difficulties with deliveries.
Although I suppose they still watch the BBC.

This might have been posted before but it was during a Sarah Smith interview.
link to youtube.com

yesindyref2

Capella
Yes, interesting poll. Shows (elecotral calculus) SNP with 44, Lab with 11, lib 1 and Con 3. But that doesn’t take account of UKIP targetting 2 or 3 of those Tory seats, and some of the 11 Labour ones. That could split the vote – in favour of the SNP even more.

Chitterinlicht

If No voters were shouting from the roof with anger at broken vow I would feel sorry for them. But they are not.

My conclusion is the majority of no voters simply do not care and never cared beyond maintaining the status quo.

If any are upset no voters that are struggling to find a way to admit this please voice it on Wings as we need you going forward. You may get some grief but I would be happy to hear from you.

Does anyone know any no voters that are upset? Any chance getting them on here to speak up and bring others on board ?

ronnie anderson

I managed to visit Maryhill foodbank today the monies from the sale of Brian/Pete’s badges £68.10 at ( Hope over Fear Rally ) I made that up to £100 & donated it on behalf of Wings Over Scotland. Nicola has put it up on Maryhill,s twitter page.

Defo

Valerie says:
“Can’t believe UKIP are polling more than the Greens in all these polls, it’s really scary.”

Fear not Valerie. If one of their goons gets in via PR, can you imagine the sport they would make at FMQs ?
Humiliated, every time they spoke, and by inference so would be those lost souls who voted for them.

UKIP are a Tory invention. Fraj has his eyes on Cleggs seat.

Marcia

Voters getting their information solely from the BBC I would suspect will be a little more difficult to convince that those who get their information from a variety of sources.

link to twitter.com

Betty Boop

@ Valerie, 6:38pm

“Can’t believe UKIP are polling more than the Greens in all these polls, it’s really scary.”

As Capella said, the BBC is the answer; Farage’s face was all over it for over 2 years.

Right now, Landward on BBC2 is telling us all about how much oil there is in the Clair field, you know that place they wouldn’t mention before the referendum, never reported D Cameron hotfooting it there on his first visit to Shetland as PM.

The voters in Britain will get whoever the BBC is punting for whomsoever pulls their strings.

in exile

To quote the first president of the SNP
“The enemies of Scottish Nationalism are not the English, for they were ever a great and generous folk, quick to respond when justice calls. Our real enemies are among us, born without imagination.”
Jola throwing our own words back in our face.

My belief is that

Education = Enlightenment

A.N.Surgent

Might not be all rosy in the ukip garden, farage manages to say “banana republic” in his comment.

link to rt.com

wannabescot

Yeah, that’s what I thought Bettertogether’s line of thought was at the time of the referendum. It’s a shame their tricks worked.

SquareHaggis

Couldn’t help noticing the hilarious article “down below” that article from the Independent.

women’s cycling team from Colombia 😀

Betty Boop

@ liz, 7:04pm

Re the Sarah Smith interview. Cat Boyd looked as though she had lost the will to live on that clip – probably wondering why she had bothered entering the den of misinformation.

On the subject of Mark Steel’s article, he might not have got the whole picture about why we had a no vote, but, he certainly hit the nail on the head when it comes to the disrespect national politicians have for the electorate.

Stevie boy

@ Caledonia 6:45pm

Yep I agree. Surely these folk that voted No on the promise of the Vow.. if the Vow turns out to be a useless pile of pish then does that not mean the result is void and another Referendum should take place? Vote was won on a big fat lie!

What happened in if the SNP thought in the last week they were going to lose so said they would make everyone in Scotland £10k a year better off.. everyone votes for Independence.. then they come out and say ‘oh yeah sorry about that but now we can’t afford it.. but thanks for voting Yes anyway!’ I’m sure merry hell would break out and vote declared void.

Ivan McKee

O/T

re new-Media funding appeals from previous thread.

There are more than a few of these kicking around and there does need to be some consolidation at some stage to prevent duplication and waste of resources.

Looking forward to what Jack and James come back with as they look to have an ambitious plan and they might just pull it off which would be a game changer.

link to indiegogo.com

They will need some big funding to move to the next level so worth keeping a few pennies back for that one.

Other effort that’s worth supporting is the really great stuff the Indy Live guys do. Small monthly donation there would help them continue and they aren’t asking for much.

link to independencelive.net

Bella and Newsnet of course knows what they are doing and are worth supporting

Regarding other broadcast appeals looking for big money some scepticism might be in order until see how the dust settles, or unless you are confident of their bona-fides.

Clootie

“Maybe one way they can reverse this is to try a more forthright approach, and to start with they could say: ‘If the Scottish are so daft as to believe our vow, maybe that proves they’re not fit to run their own country anyway, the idiots.’”

I find it difficult to argue against. However 45% were not fooled and at a guess probably 35%-45% were NO voters from the hard core unionists to the group that accepted the general propaganda (Pound / EU / etc).

The Vow probably hit 10%. That 10% accepted the promise hyped by the BBC of “DevoMax”.

An interesting band who trust Gordon Brown, accept vows by unionist leaders in the Daily Record etc….. now they are “trusting or gullible” people. Perhaps a fairer description than stupid because suggesting that they are stupid transfers the responsibility for the guilty deed from the liars to the victims.

Stevie boy

Regarding the ‘daft Scottish people’ the article speaks of.. one of my old workmates and friends only read the Daily Record and watched the BBC during the build up and was going to vote No. I sat with him and went through EVERYTHING with him and opened his eyes to the lies and brainwashing to the point he was changed to Yes.

Found out through someone else after the vote that he ended up voting No. When I asked him about why he did he said ‘well you’s weren’t gonna get it anyway’!! I said well obviously not with stupid thinking like that!!

Still can’t f*ckin believe him. Hard to even talk to him now.

Yeah things like that show that we do have a lot of thick folk that just don’t get it.. and probably never will.

heedtracker

But this is ignoring the sheer force of Project Fear. Throughout the night before pols opened 18th Sept, BBC World Service broadcast every half hour 2 headline stories, 1-Australian PM orders 800 Police manhunt for jihadi plot to behead memebers of Austrialian public, in public and 2- Scotland votes on separation from the UK tomorrow.

If you didn’t hear it all, it was teriffying although It’s probably just a case of hard core Tory boy BBC liggers faced with that nothing to lose so go for it thing. It’s the worst BBC attack propaganda in either war or peace imaginable and they did it anyway, all to anihalate Scottish democracy. They were that Project Fear desperate and they may well have made it all up as I never saw Australian jihadi beheadings plot reported again.

A.N.Surgent

Would this mean that Scots couldn`t be tried for treason, if they introduced a 1351 law to use against brits who joined extremists.

link to rt.com

Luigi

Clootie @ 7:44 pm

And don’t forget those infamous words of wisdon uttered by BT during the last few days before the referendum:

“If you are not sure, just vote NO”

Must have been good for a few percent IMO.

Stevie boy

If u haven’t already done so.. tell the disgraceful BBC to shove their licence as far up as it will go!

I have and at least I feel a bit better for it.. would rather watch paint dry than contribute to their lies!!

SquareHaggis

Here’s a good article regarding Hope over Fear

link to thebutterflyrebellion.scot

Defo

Steels piece was meant for a far wider audience than just us sweatys.

James123

The BBC just reported that “the NHS is at breaking point”, where was that info a few weeks ago you fuckers.

Grouse Beater

Jeezus!

Hardly a heart beat from self-governance stolen like candy from a kid, and already the first Christmas commercial.

Shameless bastards.

Capella

@ indyref2 I had a look at the list of Independent articles leading up to the referendum and they seem more negative but with some balance too. I don’t buy it because,on the day, I recall it had a negative front page whereas the i was neutral.
But this article from Quebec warning against believing last minute promises is interesting.
link to archive.today
More and more I see the same tactics repeated in Quebec, Greece (when Syriza was gaining votes) and Catalonia and Scotland. A tried and successful technique of propaganda, fear, false promises and threats.

M4rkyboy

Some of the Naws i know welcomed the dirty tricks.
They are utterly convinced Scotland couldn’t survive and elevate this to an axiom that informs their every view-it’s the bedrock on which they exist and nothing will budge them from it.
As far as they’re concerned they are the keepers of the ultimate truth and will even wink conspiratorially amongst themselves when you talk with them as though they’re the ones dealing with the idiots.

gordoz

The truth hurts guys – its not aimed at YES voters.

Suck it up ‘No’s’ & Proud Scots..but everywhere (heard Lordy Smith recently) but then you were always for Britain and not Scotland anyway.

Away and greet tae yer big hero GB Broon !

Cant believe Greg Moodie has not latched onto the PM Cameron and his control over the dangling rudderless GB.

That is; the Puppet Master and his remote control over the happless clogger Gordy ‘Crash – Ahh Ahhhh !’ Broon.

The Chickens comin’ home tae roost noo Broony.

fred blogger

SquareHaggis
a very good article indeed.

M4rkyboy

Some of the Naws even have the cheek to describe themselves as Scottish Patriots.
There’s a Britnat twitter account that finishes his tweets off ‘Alba gu bragh’.Usually after saying ‘Scotland will be British forever!!’.

Marcia

James123

It is about time the Health Service in Scotland reverted back to the name it had before the Tories rebranded it in the 1990’s, from the Scottish Health Service which was part of the Scottish Home and Health Service to NHS Scotland. It would avoid the confusion with the creaking NHS in England.

yesindyref2

I did make a mistake during the ref, not keeping an eye on Curtice’s blog. I noticed MM posting there but couldn’t be bothered. He is absolutely the easiest unionist not just to beat, but to let you continue your point which would otherwise make the first posting too long and boring. All he does is totally “misrepresent”, such as “I believe the SNP were almost as popular last general election but still only got 6 MP’s”.

Uh, no. The SNP compared to Lab percent has almost totally reversed since 2010 according to that poll info from Capella / scotpop. Ah well, back to my tea!

galamcennalath

BT turned out to be masters of deception. In the end they managed to deceive more people than Yes managed to convert. Lies, fearmongering and threats got through to enough people.

I don’t take that as a failure of the Yes side who played a fairly straight game.

I certainly would not like to offer opinion on what could have been done to counter what was by any standards of political debate – wholesale cheating!

I console myself by believing a large number of people who voted No are already seeing that they were duped. I hope this number grows. But I also see it as the mission of the Yes side to continue to expose and call out the cheats, and to educate and persuade voters. I cannot believe the Unionists can ever play the same cards next time.

No voters must come to realise, perhaps with prompting, that
– promises and vows were lies
– risk about the future lies with the Union
– and, we most certainly aren’t better together!

Grouse Beater

We can safely attribute many a No vote to the Celtic cringe; generation upon generation told in a thousand different ways we are neither worthy nor skilled enough to run our own country. Why else would Darling and the No camp have chosen a relentless campaign based on fear?

Ian Brotherhood

@Grouse Beater –

Now that you mention him, what has happened to Darling? Anyone know where he’s been, what he’s been up to?

Shouldn’t he, McDougall, Murphy, Lamont, Sarwar et al have been doing a nationwide victory tour in an open-topped bus?

Defo

Ian
“Now that you mention him, what has happened to Darling? Anyone know where he’s been, what he’s been up to?”

They re-buried him.

JGedd

I’m still receiving petitions from 38 degrees though asked to be removed from their list. Tonight another petition from them arrived in my e-mails to protest about a threat from Scottish councils to people who had registered to vote in the referendum, to re-register within two weeks or be fined £80. It states that threatening letters have already begun to be sent out. I haven’t a clue about this. It sounds very strange. Does anyone have any information on this?

gordoz

O/T

Scottish voting intentions for the May 2015 UK general election : Scot goes Pop website.

SNP 42.1% (-0.7)
Labour 24.9% (-2.1)
Conservatives 18.2% (+2.5)
Liberal Democrats 6.4% (-0.6)
UKIP 5.1% (+0.8)
Greens 2.6% (+0.5)

If only

Encouraging yes but .. you can just see it now; late April 2015; BBC & British Establishment roll North ‘We love you – dont leave us ! / The markets will fail if you vote SNP (the sky will fall) !, and it will revert to normal service.

Labour win in Scotland, Tories in at Westminster – please God no!
Wake up Scotland and cast off the fear and gullability once and for all.

Capella

@Grouse Beater
They chose a campaign based on fear because it is guaranteed to work. It’s got nothing to do with some ethnic cringe quality. It’s been tested in Quebec, Greece and probably other places as well, though I think it didn’t work so well in South America.
From the Quebec article I mentioned above:
“In voting No then, we have less political power today to initiate economic projects that would benefit our population, and less ability to offer quality services to them. We lost veto powers, funding of healthcare did not keep pace with our demands and our ability to change the situation has diminished. Education funding is embroiled in administrative tugs of war. Our money is spent outside our borders to develop industry while our own industries decline, and we are in constant danger of receiving Canada’s stockpiled nuclear waste without our consent.”

Gfaetheblock

kininvie, I think you have it spot on, the arguement was never strong or convincing enough for many, the vow just allowed the ditherers go go no, guilt free and thinking they were voting I a psitive manner.

Fred blogger, what’s this based on? I know no No that is regretting their decision.

Grouse Beater

Ian: Now that you mention him, what has happened to Darling?

Gone to ground.
Taken a very long holiday.
Locked the door to smoke waccy baccy.
Organised a lecture tour at £10,000 a gig.
Taken the vow and embraced life in a monastery.
Flown by HM Government to a secret destination free of deadly stalkers.
Joined Osborne and over-privileged pals on a Russian pal’s Puerto Banus berthed yacht. Laughing their arses off at Brown left to carry the can and argue for diddly squat.

All of the above.

Kenny

Testing.

Kenny

The Red Tories are losing support now, but this will pick up again as we get closer to the election and Pravda Scotland ramps up its propaganda machine.

It is so important to break the Red Tories forever in Scotland. I was watching an interesting documentary on Winnie Ewing; she told of being a woman and the sole SNP member in WM. Tories ok to her, Libs kindly, but SLAB….

I think back to how they have always been like this, even Clement Attlee was a unionist, which goes against the whole original socialist concept of the founders. At what point was the Labour Party infiltrated to stem off the “socialist threat” to the British Empire? To such an extent that they now do the Tories’ work in Scotland?

I believe they themselves chose to go on that path and were not actively infiltrated.

Kenny

Re UDI. People, do not forget that Scotland was independent for longer than it was in the union. And we have our own laws, entirely separate from English laws. As I see it, a contract is an agreement between two parties. One party can unilaterally withdraw from the agreement, thereby ending the contract.

So at some point, it would be quite possible for the SG to withdraw from the Treaty of Union 1707. There would not be anarchy, because we already have our own laws in place. If there is 2/3 support among the population and possible a constitutional crisis in WM, there may well be a VERY good case for repealing the Treaty of Union.

Interesting scenario: 40 MPs from the SNP in Westminster, and a landslide UKIP win based on some sort of EVEL agenda. Could this be enough to break up the union? Would Sinn Fein (biggest party in NI) break with tradition and send the necessary MPs to WM to help us?

Robert Louis

You know, the problem with some NO voting Scots, especially those who are older, is that it really isn’t in many cases actually their fault.

I grew up in the 70’s, and I and my peers were all told repeatedly during our schooling, and later life, that Scotland could never manage on its own. We were also told the Scottish oil was poor quality, it wouldn’t last, and really it would be economic suicide to base an economy on it. It is/was accepted wisdom, like the sun rising each morning, or night following day. Never forget, in the 70’s and 80’s there was NO google, or internet, the only sources of information was the BBC, ITV and the papers. If you wanted to know what happened in a parliamentary debate, you would need to go to the trouble of reading Hansard (at great cost) in printed form.

To this day, I know some from my generation, who still cannot believe that Scotland would be successful on its own – it shakes their entire world view to the core, to think otherwise. To many, it is ‘hard wired’, it is something that they have generally accepted all their lives. ‘How could the Government have been lying?? ‘They wouldn’t allow that to happen for so long’ would they?? Of course not.’..and so on.

You see, we know the facts, and that Westminster has been lying to Scotland about its wealth and oil since it started flowing, but many simply do not. They believe the BBC really is (no sniggering!) honest and truthful.

It takes time to change that, time to reverse 40 or more years of biased BBC propaganda, and nonsense from Westminster and the red and blue tories of Scotland.

People’s views can however be changed, it just takes a bit of time, so none of us should just give up. Try to understand how something which has been repeatedly stated as fact for a lifetime, that Scotland ‘cannae manage on its own’, can form a very rigid worldview.

If you have believed that for 40 or 50 years, it is very hard to accept that what you have taken as the truth, has been nothing but a well orchestrated pack of lies.

Fortunately, due to the internet, that is changing. Our younger people are better informed, and the older generation, will sadly pass from us, at some stage.

The fact is, we should all behave as though the campaign hasn’t ended, in that it is up to us to slowly demonstrate to such people that Scotland IS a wealthy country, more than capable of running its own affairs, and doing a better job of it than London.

I have stated before many times, and I’ll state it again, things in Scotland are now changing very, very fast, people’s eyes have been opened and there will be no closing of them again. They are rightly angry. I think we will have another opportunity for independence in less than 2 years, and not necessarily via a referendum.

The will of the people will tell us when.

Ian Brotherhood

You come across the strangest wee things on Youtube – this one’s an extract from a BBC effort narrated by Sarah Smith, so it’s not exactly tinfoil-hat material.

Alistair Darling was Norman Lamont’s fag? You said it Sarah…

link to youtube.com

David

I must say, its this referendum and the build up to it that has made me respect my fellow Scots again.

Before, for a very long time, i have been convinced that there are just too many spineless, uninformed, brit-zombie people in Scotland for their to ever be change.

Although i definitely will reach out to all in order to make the case for Scottish independence i cannot bring myself to respect people who do nothing and expect things to work out for them.

There are always (for the foreseeable future at least) going to be assholes looking to get into power who shouldnt be there. They cant be blamed, these people are just power hungry assholes and should be recognized for what they are.

The people i blame most is the ignorant vassal-like sheep who have all the hard fought for democratic and legal tools to keep a free and fair society but dont use those tools purely because they are too lazy, apathetic and just…well…pathetic. Or i could just refer to these people as your average ‘no’ voter.

Scot Finlayson

@ Gfaetheblock
Go away you tedious boring person.

One_Scot

Can’t remember them calling us idiots a few weeks before the referendum, I do however seem to remember a lot of pleading and begging.

People seem to respect you when you have power, but treat you like crap when you don’t. I guess were at the don’t stage at the moment.

Grouse Beater

Capella: It’s got nothing to do with some ethnic cringe quality.

It is difficult to attribute anything else to those who say, I voted No because we are too small a country to run our own affairs, or say, we’re not ready yet for independence.

Some see the likes of Lamont and wonder if we have any brains at all to lead a blind cow out of a field.

thomaspotter2014

It seems to me that if we can get a significant section of the disillutioned Labour defectors onside that would make a lot of difference to the Independence or Devo-Max probabilities.
They were/are quite a large percentage of No’s,and would be able to explain the directives and mechanics of how they were instructed to foil the YES campaign,so we could counter it next time(sooner than some think?)
There has to be lots of them feeling betrayed by events and we need to consider this option.
Unfortunately I came across this-when I still had a bitter feeling in my gut-I’m trying to disperse it ,but it’s still with me today-
I read a guest blog from a Labour guy,Andrew MacFadyen on Better Nation and it looked like he was advocating an ‘Independent Labour Party’in Scotland,renewed with what I percieved to be Yes type structures and I must admit,red mist came over me and I blasted his concept and blog as venomously as I felt at the time.Now I feel I should have handled it differently,and I’m working on not feeling too angry towards No people,especially Labour types-more time needed methinks!but I’m sure I’ll calm down sometime in the next 6 months.lol
Hope there’s something positive in this?

Natasha

Just watched the independence live tv broadcast day 3 from freedom square with Darren Carnegie. I found it heartbreaking, because someone mentioned how a young man with Asperger’s Syndrome in David Cameron’s constituency had been sanctioned and lost his jobseeker’s allowance. He starved to death, and his body weighed not much more than 5 stone when he was found (by police who had to break down the door).

My son, who is 20, has Asperger’s Syndrome. He was sanctioned recently for missing three appointments at the jobcentre(he overslept once and missed the bus twice – we live in a rural area and the buses only run once an hour). If he didn’t have us to support him, he would starve. He can’t claim jobseeker’s allowance now for another THREE YEARS. He was too ashamed to tell us what had happened for about two months and pretended he was still going along to appointments.

He went to Glasgow University when he was 18 to read Maths and Astronomy, but had a nervous breakdown and had to return home. He is completely dependent on us and suffers from depression. He has applied for hundreds of jobs but has never even been invited for interview.

This is the society we live in, and for which my colleagues at work voted to continue to live in. Is it any wonder I have trouble forgiving them?

Capella

@Gouse Beater “It is difficult to attribute anything else to those who say, I voted No because we are too small a country to run our own affairs, or say, we’re not ready yet for independence.”
I posted a link to a short film on propaganda in the previous thread. I would attribute people’s attitudes to brainwashing rather than some mysterious genetic defect. it occurs all over the world:
link to tinyurl.com

Apache

There are plenty of No voters who will be regretting decision, no doubt enough to make a difference if there was a replay tomorrow. These people are just about worthy of our time and effort, however there is a vast element of our society, who are absolute morons and they are not too difficult to identify, so, feel free to abuse and ridicule. I personally, find this very therapeutic.

mj

Rev, don’t give up hope on us. you know the media was relentles and we failed to get our message across to our old people and also English people who’ve moved to Scotland. I think we need to get behind a DevoMax banner and not let this VOW slide into a bit of taxation. if the deal doesnt include oil taxes to balance our books it’s back to the ballot box!

Kenny

Do not forget that prior to the vote, there were three groups in Scotland: yes, no, don’t know. It is up to us to win over the “don’t know” catagory with rational, sober arguments, based on the truth and backed up by clear evidence.

As for the other no voters…. I find it tremendously hard to be charitable to them… They have brought international shame on Scotland, the richest country never to vote for independence, a country the McCrone Report said back in the 1970s would be the richest in Western Europe with the strongest currency on the whole continent (and, by definition, possibly the world).

I hear the reasons why people voted no and my hair stands on end. It is a compliment to say such people are as thick as mince. Have they had a lobotomy? Why does Scotland have the greatest, most creative and inventive people in the world…. and yet so many numpties who believe we are “too wee” and “genetically preprogrammed” not to make decisions (conveniently forgetting our entire history pre-1707)?

Yes, I am biased, but this whole question to me is like a simple battle between the forces of good and the forces of utter evil (food banks, nuclear weapons, ME wars, child poverty, our oil wealth building SE wealth while we live in poverty, WM politicians laughing at us for being turkeys voting for Christmas — and rightfully laughing).

crazycat

@ JGedd

Individual Voter Registration was introduced in England and Wales some months ago; it was deferred in Scotland till after the referendum.

This is a change from the annual form that used to be sent to each household, whereon a single person could register all the inhabitants. Now each person has to apply separately.

Having not received the form (I live alone so there was no need for a change) I usually get at this time of year, I e-mailed my local Electoral Registration Office asking what the procedure was. They have not replied. A couple of days ago I registered anyway, via link to gov.uk – it is now possible to do this on-line without printing out a form, but a National Insurance number is required. I received an acknowledgment and should be contacted by my ERO.

Prior to the referendum, I read about a commitment that no-one currently registered would be removed from the roll before the 2015 GE – an admission that the new system may take a while to settle. I asked about this in my unanswered e-mail.

Also before the referendum, some councils were comparing their council tax databases with the electoral roll and contacting people where there were discrepancies, giving them a certain amount of time to say which address they should be registered at. That seems fair enough; it could be a large task in some areas and the sooner it is started the better the chance of completing it in time.

It is now the time of year that the main register is compiled (updates are monthly but depend on people volunteering information about change of circumstance) and I think it has always been theoretically compulsory to register. My neighbour, whose post I deal with while he is working abroad, gets several reminders each year before they give up.

Although I am still awaiting confirmation of this in a response to my e-mail, if it is true that letters are being sent out, these are presumably reminders that a new roll is being complied and that it is necessary to re-register. Maybe it isn’t confined to those newly-enrolled for the referendum. Notifying everyone would be better than just hoping they all find out what is required! (I asked about that, too.) Fines are probably nothing new, but councils may be keener to enforce this if their budgets are creaking.

fred blogger

New Figures Show ‘Staggering’ 15% Decline In Incomes Of Britain’s Poorest”
link to archive.today

Grouse Beater

“But exactly how would Scotland have been made a better country when independent? I never heard anybody explain,” said Gordon Brewer on his radio panel show today.

Jeeezus.

He didn’t understand therefore it never happened.

Capella

@ Natasha
How terrible for your son and you to have to deal with those appalling attacks on vulnerable people. It is a war. I wish there was something we could do. Voting YES was certainly the best option to get out of this ghastly neo-liberal nightmare of a society.
But I still wouldn’t blame all NO voters. Many of them are just deluded and misinformed. Of course, the neo-liberals are culpable. Is there no legal remedy?

Grouse Beater

Capella: I would attribute people’s attitudes to brainwashing rather than some mysterious genetic defect.

If decisions are made by other people somewhere else – the Scottish disease – when we see standards not our own set by London, it is hard to perceive how one can make those decisions if given the chance but without experience of leadership or authority.

Hence, we invite incomers to take charge of our institutions.

Capella

@ Grouse Beater
So how did the Irish, Americans, Indians, Maltese etc manage to overcome their awe of foreign rulers?

Robert Louis

crazycat

Most of your post regarding the electoral register is correct. It is a new way of ensuring that people who are on the register, actually are who they say.

It has been described as heavy handed however, in that there are possible fines, if people do not reply etc., however, they are at the discretion of councils so far as I know.

You either get a letter saying you are on the register and everything it tickety boo, or you get one saying provide more info.

Not sure it is such a big deal – but I may be wrong. My letter said all was ok, and I did not need to do anything.

As for the petition site 38 degrees, I would avoid them. I have stated that before, and so have others on here. Several years ago, some folks (via Newsnet Scotland I think?) set one up to do something about, i think BBC bias in Scotland, and once they had the required signatures, 38 degrees refused completely to do anything with it, as it was just about Scotland. I am therefore not too surprised they did what they did with handing the petition over to Gordon Brown (nobody really knows why).

I simply do not trust 38 degrees.

Ian Brotherhood

@Natasha –

‘This is the society we live in, and for which my colleagues at work voted to continue to live in. Is it any wonder I have trouble forgiving them?’

No, it isn’t, and you shouldn’t feel bad about it. Your son is lucky to have you. I’m lucky to have a son and daughter who are both healthy. But 10, 20 years from now?

There’s no getting away from it – huge numbers of our own kin voted to keep us in this rancid, abusive relationship with an alien government, and did so for entirely selfish reasons: fear is selfish; wilful ignorance is selfish; hiding behind ‘authority’ is selfish.

Please be assured that you’re not the only one having trouble forgiving these people – the one and only thing which could help any process of reconciliation would be for a hefty % of them to get off their fucking arses and DO something about the undeliverable ‘Vow’.

As if…

crazycat

@ Robert Louis

I also think there is nothing sinister; I was merely explaining that I had tried to get a definitive statement from the ERO (I also asked them for information on progress of the consultation which may prevent campaigners from handing out registration forms or postal vote applications, which is fine in that it stops certain political parties, but would have been a great nuisance for us if we had been unable to assist the people who approached us prior to the referendum – maybe that accounts for the delay in their response).

I un-subscribed from 38 degrees after the Brown hijack and told them I do not trust them. They also have not replied – I’m starting to get paranoid 🙂

bookie from hell

main thing that shocked me from referendum was how the whole MSM/Unionist establishment joined together to spout out lie after lie

Grouse Beater

Capellas: So how did the Irish, Americans, Indians, Maltese etc manage to overcome their awe of foreign rulers?

They do not share the same isle.

English rule truly was a thousand leagues too far. And you forget, they drove incomers from their land. Where do we drive English colonials? From Edinburgh to Broxburn?

Graeme Doig

JGedd

According to the Scotsman article:

“Voters have been ordered to provide their national insurance details to local authorities within a fortnight for a new registration process, or face £80 penalties, despite them already being on the electoral roll.

The Scotsman has learned 20 per cent of the 4.29 million people who were registered to vote in the referendum are to be sent the notices.

The bulk of those receiving the notices, a number of which have already been sent out, are unemployed people, benefit claimants, students and people who have moved home recently.

The UK government views the fines, which will be enforced at the discretion of council officials, as a way of encouraging people to re-register through the new system”

Yet another draconian measure from our imperial masters for our councils to try and squeeze some more blood from the stone of the poorest.

Police state creeps closer folks. Maybe the end is nigh.

Kenny

I would be kinder towards no voters, were so much not at stake. All the poverty and injustice could have been wiped out at the stroke of a pen, because the whole YES campaign, from Sheridan and RIC to Business for Scotland, was completely united in saying: we want a fair, all-inclusive society, with NO poverty, NO inequality, NO injustice, NO fear. And we would have done it by using the proceeds from oil and whisky exports, electricity exports, clean-energy exports and from scrapping the horror that is weapons of mass destruction on the Clyde.

Many may have had good reasons for voting no. Fine, it takes all people to make up a nation, and of course there will be diverse opinions. This is a democracy, after all!

But people who voted no simply because they wanted house prices to go up are, in my view, complicit in criminal acts — acts which help evil people like IDS continue to wage war against their own population (why do they hate their own, including even the English, so much?).

caledonia

I know this is harsh as not every older person voted no
but in 5 years a lot of the no voters will be dead and we will have another 5 years of more on the ball social media type young voters….

Grouse Beater

Ian: Now that you mention him, what has happened to Darling?

Gone to ground, weeping in his wife’s lap.
Under his bed smoking heavily and brain boozed.
Taken a very long vacation somewhere in Bermuda.
Organised a world lecture tour, ‘How I F-d Scotland,’ £10,000 a gig.
Negotiating with private corporations seeking lucrative bits of the NHS.
Taken the vow – no, not that one! – to embrace life in a Greek monastery.
On a large luxury yacht berthed in Puerto Banus with Osborne and his fat Russian pals, hookers serving drinks, all laughing their heads off at Hapless Gordon left to carry the can, arguing uselessly for diddly squat.

SquareHaggis

The Catalans don’t f@(< about, check this out for a geme o dazzies

link to tinyurl.com

Capella

@ Grouse beater
From Boulder to Birmingham!

Alan of Neilston

All you Good People accessing this site have to realise we are given our Nation’s Hero’s ie POLITICIAN’S over all the generations past. The “Dominant Minority” have passed through all the Millenia since History has been “recorded”. I would encourage some ,if not all of you, to read Professor Caroll Quigley’s books” TRAGEDY AND HOPE “and “THE ANGLO AMERICAN ESTABLISHMENT” to have an insight into how this Dominant Minority have connived, funded, and created the “”Establishment”” we all endure. They are Very, Very, Powerful, in that ,they control the BANKING SYSTEM, control All the Major Corporations and importantly the so called MAIN STREAM MEDIA, PLUS all Useful Politicans. They are totally dominant within the “ROYAL INSTITUTE OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS” now called” CHATHAM HOUSE” and its offspring The” COUNCIL OF FOREIGN RELATIONS” within the U.S.A. and all the Major Western Countries, which are all in turn infested from “selected people” from all the Elite Universities. These people have been “educated ” in these Elite Universities and Selected Institutions are in turn selected and promoted and put in place across the Goverment of the “”UK”” as has sometimes been discussed on this site. An interesting read from “TRAGEDY AND HOPE ” shows how in the U.S.A once the Banking Elite commenced running and controlling the country,around the early 19th Century, it was enabled and done through buying up all the many Independant News Papers and reducing them to only about 20 across the U.S.A. to propagate propaganda and manipulate Public Opinion (WHATS NEW IF IT WORKS THEN WHY NOT NOW!!). The same techniqes always work on any population and are always used. We have to wake up and fight back Scotland. What a chance we have been given. Lets start with getting rid of the S.L.AB. In May 2015. Gordon Brown, God Bless him in Parliament has now created the “CRACK ” lets open it and walk through?

Capella

@ SquareHaggis
Great clip. Inspiring. The Catalans don’t seem cowed. Maybe we should crowd fund a trip out there for Tommy Sheridan to give a message from Scotland?

Grouse Beater

Capella: From Boulder to Birmingham!

Aye. Let it be so.

Driven from the great Rock at the mouth of Glencoe to the sentinel Rock of Gibraltar where they will be at one with the Barbary apes.

Valerie

Great clip of the Catalans, wonder if we can do something similar at the Hydro “F**k Off, Westminster”

heedtracker

It’s just simple economics. We have a super rich elite and no council housing built for a generation. Who had the opportunity to build a county fit for working people, the majority? Labour ruled by a war mongering debt crazed faux Tory or Tories, like Bliar, Crash and the Flipper and the mased ranks of roughens like JimMurphy.

In Scotland last month the I’m alright jacks won but it’s not over because its never over.

Oneironaut

@Chitterinlicht
“Does anyone know any no voters that are upset? Any chance getting them on here to speak up and bring others on board ?”

I met a No voter today who I’d always assumed was a Yes until she said straight out she’d voted No.

She’s probably the most intelligent and good-hearted person I know too, so it was actually kind of a shock to me that she didn’t seem too bothered at having voted to throw away her country’s future.

I wonder how many people like that are out there and still content in their decision?

Intelligent people don’t have the luxury of hiding behind an ignorance of the facts or the inability to research them though.

Days like this I believe there’s no way out of this mess…

SquareHaggis

@Capella,

Yes, it’s humbling to see a people who really want thier Independence.
We are just as great a people – we only need to believe, that’s all.

If they put a gig like this on in Scotland tomorrow I’d be there like a rocket.

@Valerie,

A few rows of hairy pink Scottish a5ses oughtta purvey your message just nicely 😉

Rock

A.N.Surgent,

“Getting less inclined to watch Max Keiser.He always has a wee dig about how stupid,daft and other less gentle terms aimed at Scots, giving up their chance to dump the london elite.”

But that is the truth and nothing but the truth, isn’t it?

We are the laughing stock of the world, at least 55% of us.

Natasha

Capella & Ian Brotherhood

Thank you for your kind messages. My son tried appealing the decision with the help of the Scottish Association for Mental Health (a brilliant organisation which I can’t praise highly enough)but apparently as he “only” has Asperger’s rather than full-blown autism, that doesn’t count as being “disabled enough” for them to make exceptions. You really couldn’t make it up, could you?

What matters in the end is that we don’t give up; and when you think about it, we really are very lucky – we have all the brightest, funniest, most caring and most committed people on our side. Our movement is full of joy and hope; their hearts are just full of fear and misery. We will get there in the end!

Rock

Andy-B,

“So how do we get from 45% to 51% without offending anyone?”

Convince many more working class Labour voters that they will be better off under independence.

That is our only hope. The elderly and middle class who voted No will not change their minds in 2017 (or ever).

Taranaich

OK folks, here it is. 59 MPs, and how they voted on devolution since 2010. I might’ve finally lost my mind. The idea that Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling of all people dare to proclaim their supposed enthusiasm for devolution absolutely sickens me knowing what I know now. How in the hell did anyone believe these people?

link to wildernessofpeace.wordpress.com

Of course, I’ve also found out a great deal more interesting things in my investigations, which I’ll discuss in future installments of… The Devo Files!

Stoker

@9.53pm – Alan,
Very interesting and good post.
And to that i will add 2 more factors which almost certainly made a difference.
A lot of people don’t like it when this subject is brought up, but if we don’t face up to and do something about it then we’re not very likely to make progress any time soon.

(1)-Pre referendum we had the head of the Orange Order calling for a no vote, and in support of that rallying call there was a large parade through the streets of Edinburgh. In the previous 2 years, in the build up to the referendum, they also organised several other large parades through places such as Stirling. Every one of these sectarian parades went unchallenged and without incident. Our politicians, local councils and police force all gave these sectarian parades the green light.

(2)-Pre referendum and, as far as i know, the leader of Scotland’s Catholics called for a ‘no’ vote – if it wasn’t him it was the Pope (it may even have been both). Add to this that complete and utter ersewipe, George Galloway, attempting to scare the utter crap out of Catholics with warnings about voting Yes.

Now, no matter what your beliefs are – i think i’m an Atheist, btw 🙂 – there can be no argument against the fact that all these people mentioned above are VERY influential people. Hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions, hang on their every last word. We believers in Scottish Independence can go on preaching the facts until we turn purple but as soon as these “religious” leaders start “preaching”, we might as well pack up. Something has to be done about it – but what – I don’t know!

mary vasey

Taranaich what I find repugnant is the statue of Donald Dewar in Glasgow, who so believed in Scotland that the day before our parliament opened he gave away ? What 6000 miles of our water so England could get some of our oil. grrrr

Ian Brotherhood

@ Grouse Beater (9.50) –

re What’s happened to Darling?

All of the scenarios you mention might appear outlandish, (or even, dare I say it, ‘satirical’?) to anyone living outside Scotland.

Here, in Scotland, each and every one of them is more plausible than the idea of a relaxed, non-twitching Darling, sitting in a pub talking to normal Scots – that particular vignette will never, ever happen.

Gfaetheblock

Scot Finlayson – why? I am just saying that I see no evidence that no are moving to yes, and saying so is somewhere between hope and delusion.

I believe that we should be working to find the best way to make scotland better, is that what you are bored by?

Rock

Clootie,

“The Vow probably hit 10%. That 10% accepted the promise hyped by the BBC of “DevoMax”.”

I don’t think it did.

What hit the crucial 10% (poor working class Labour voters) was the scaring to death by the likes of Asda, Iceland and above all the BBC.

They didn’t give a damn about the vow – they were the victims of the relentless Project Fear.

RIC, Tommy Sheridan etc did a great job, but unfortunately they fell short and were no match to the might of the British establishment.

Oneironaut

@Gfaetheblock
I think that was supposed to go on the current main thread.

Also, I’d have to agree with you, from my experiences of No voters around here. I’ve yet to meet one who says anything about regretting their decision.

All the ones I’ve met so far simply don’t care and are quite happy with what they’ve done.

That whole “45” thing is really starting to grow on me now…

fred blogger

Taranaich
a great piece of work, bookmarked for reference, thank you.

Oneironaut

@Gfaetheblock
Ignore that first bit. Had a tab with the off-topic thread open too and got them mixed up.

Heading off to sleep now since the caffeine obviously isn’t working any more…

Bob Sinclair

Square Haggis
Watching that makes me wish I was Catalan. I wonder if they have any ‘Proud Catalan buts’

No no no...Yes

O/T In the absence of any current activity from that Unionist stalwart, MP James Murphy, here is something to help keep him in your thoughts:

link to michaelgreenwell.wordpress.com

Also, I don’t do Facebook or Twitter: just found out that there is a big rally tomorrow in Perth at St. Matthew’s church hall,Tay Street, from 1-4pm.Pete Wishart, RIC, WFI and Greens. This is the same venue as the recent successful WFI gig.

Will Podmore

Stoker writes of the Orange Order marches, “Every one of these sectarian parades went unchallenged and without incident. Our politicians, local councils and police force all gave these sectarian parades the green light.”
Actually, Better Together dissociated itself from these marches before they happened.
Is Stoker saying that these marches, which, as he acknowledges, passed off ‘without incident’, should have been banned?

Ian Brotherhood

@Taranaich –

I’ve only spent five, six minutes on it, but hey, mister, it’s got to be a candidate for inclusion in the WOS Reference section.

This is surely a template for the Wee Red Book.

(The photies alone are priceless – Carmichael? Oh, FFS, pass me a bucket…)

link to wildernessofpeace.wordpress.com

Grouse Beater

Ian: Osborne: Here, in Scotland, each and every one of them is … plausible

You bet.

JGedd

@crazycat @Graeme Doig @Robert Louis

Thanks for the information. The way that 38 degrees presented it made it sound sinister.

@Natasha

I have every sympathy with you. One of my sons has mild Asperger’s and went to university. However, not long into his course, he began to have epileptic seizures. ( There is a higher incidence of this in those on the autistic spectrum than in the ordinary population.) Before they were able to bring this under control with medication, he had several seizures particularly at stressful times, like before and even during exams. He told me that the seizures seemed to wipe his memory at these times so of course, his studies suffered. He even dropped out of university for a period of time and we didn’t know about it.

He did in the end manage to get a degree, though given the circumstances, not quite what we had hoped. He now has a job but despite the fact that, having Asperger’s, he is supremely focused on the job in hand, calculates rapidly and (now the epilepsy is under control) has acute memory recall, he is aware that subtle social interactions escape him.

Our society lacks empathy and this has been encouraged by the media which directs the cult of individualism and worship of wealth. There is a terrible disconnection between people as if society itself had become too large for the ordinary psyche to cope with. In this emotional void the media has inculcated a cynical detachment and a shallow group mentality which needs to target the ‘other’. I don’t watch TV but I’m aware of the squalid programming which runs on day-time BBC and other channels which are about monstering the disadvantaged.

Like you Natasha, I find it difficult to come to terms with that part of society which is so uncaring. I met enough of them when out canvassing.

Valerie

Will Podmore hope you are not going to pretend that Jim Murphy was not associating with the OO? He defended them at one point on TV, saying that perhaps the Yes campaign should have kept their mouth shut about them.

And lets not mention George Square, eh?

caz-m

The latest instalment from Mr Moodie.

“The House of Evel by Greg Moodie”

link to bellacaledonia.org.uk

Bob Sinclair

It’s Friday Night & the Pod is back with his large rotary manipulation device, usual rules apply when dealing with those under bridge dwelling life forms.

Stoker

Lets try and get some weight behind this extremely important issue. We all know what a major part the BBC played in leading the No campaigns Project Fear. It is extremely important to Scotland and her future well-being that we either get full control of broadcasting or we see the end of the BBC in Scotland.

C’mon, Wingers. If you haven’t already done so – please sign:
link to thepetitionsite.com

Will Podmore

Kenny writes, “One party can unilaterally withdraw from the agreement ..” Yes, you were offered the chance to choose to do so. But by 55/45 you chose not to. Separatists believe that Scotland is a nation. If it was, it would have voted Yes. As, for example, if Namibia in the 1970s had been allowed a choice, it would have voted overwhelmingly for independence. Or as the Vietnamese would have voted 80/20 in 1956 for independence, if the USA had allowed the promised election.
But in September you had the chance to prove that you were indeed a nation, but you didn’t, so you aren’t. Now we all have to work together in our united country, to rebuild it, and to win our independence from the undemocratic, capitalist the EU.

yesindyref2

@Taranaich
Good God, what a tremendous piece of work, well done!

I like the Carmichael one: “Did not vote on devolving elements of the Crown Estate and accountability of the Crown Estate” (2011) considering his promises to the people of Shetland and Orkney to devolve 80% to them (probably if they voted NO!). Only excuse would be if he was paired at the time.

Natasha

J Gedd 11.12pm

Thank you so much for your kind comments. I’m really glad to hear your son got his degree and now has a job; it gives me hope for my son.

Hey, Plod, did you bother to read my post at 9.09pm? How can you defend staying part of a system which ensures that vulnerable people starve to death in one of the richest countries in the world? And don’t you DARE tell me it would be any different under New Labour – you know as well as I do that that is a massive lie. The fact is that all those Labour voters who moved to Yes did so for two reasons:
1) they realised that the just society they longed for could NEVER be achieved as part of this disgraceful so-called union
2)they realised that the just society they longed for could NEVER be achieved under New Labour.

Don’t kid yourself that they’ll come running back to SLAB in the general election – a sea change has happened and there is nothing you can do about it. You helped to betray your country and your fellow human beings and I hope you rot in hell.

Grouse Beater

Bob Sinclair: usual rules apply when dealing with those dwelling under-bridge life forms.

Chuckle.

Sub-species, pond life.

Natasha

Actually, “fellow” human beings was an insult to the rest of us.

K1

Gfaetheblock,

Well at least one conversion has appeared below the line on a previous thread, maybe you should have a look and see his post. If there is one, there are others, I have no doubt of this; especially in light of what has happened since (from the perspective of any No voter who trusted the vow, that is). I don’t know any one personally, who regrets thier vote (I only know 2 people that voted No) but I do have friends who know other No voters that are having regrets. Anecdotal is giving way to evidential.

Grouse Beater

JGedd: I met enough of them when out canvassing.

I am of the opinion voting should be mandatory, fined if you fail, the only excuse in hospital or dead. But some folk should be sanctioned if they don’t care a fig.

Taranaich

@mary vasey: Taranaich what I find repugnant is the statue of Donald Dewar in Glasgow, who so believed in Scotland that the day before our parliament opened he gave away ? What 6000 miles of our water so England could get some of our oil. grrrr

6,000 square miles, yup. Looking forward to Labour’s proposals for a Gordon Brown statue when he shambles off this mortal coil.

@fred blogger: a great piece of work, bookmarked for reference, thank you.

Oh, it’s just beginning, fred!

@Ian Brotherhood: I’ve only spent five, six minutes on it, but hey, mister, it’s got to be a candidate for inclusion in the WOS Reference section.

This is surely a template for the Wee Red Book.

(The photies alone are priceless – Carmichael? Oh, FFS, pass me a bucket…)

Thanks very much, Ian! I do think it’s stuff like this The People Need To Know. If there’s a silver lining following the No vote, it’s that we’ll still be in a position to change the political landscape of Scotland. Thinking about having to work with Brown and Curran and Murphy in an independent Scotland gives me a migraine: perhaps it’s for the best that we have a chance to get rid of these fools, and get more than 50%+1 on side.

@yesindyref2:Good God, what a tremendous piece of work, well done!

I like the Carmichael one: “Did not vote on devolving elements of the Crown Estate and accountability of the Crown Estate” (2011) considering his promises to the people of Shetland and Orkney to devolve 80% to them (probably if they voted NO!). Only excuse would be if he was paired at the time.

Thanks! I didn’t know about the Carmichael Shetland promise, though it doesn’t surprise me in the slightest. I have a feeling Shetland & Orkney were promised a LOT of things by Teddy Boy.

Next stage is to find statements & such by said MPs and the relation to their voting record.

Ian Brotherhood

@Will Podmore –

Will you please pod less?

Cadogan Enright

Rock Andy-B,
“So how do we get from 45% to 51% without offending anyone?”

Learn from our mistakes – it was obvious to me as I canvassed doors in the closing weeks of the referendum that we had not found the way to convince the bulk of pensioners – the answer is not to fume and curse at the 55% – but to figure out what would work better the next time. 6 out of 55 is not hard – but can be made more difficult if we are seen as offensive and lose some of the 45%

Clootie,
What hit the crucial 10% (poor working class Labour voters) was the scaring to death by the likes of Asda, Iceland and above all the BBC.
True – but the vow was a cover too – Question is – how to counter this the next time? Or to disarm them before they are rolled out the next time? Apart from writing to the BBC to say why they are not getting my licence. I have already been in to see my local ASDA manager with my wife and a few of her friends and explained why we were shopping in Tesco and LIDL from now on – we dont have an Iceland ANY OTHER IDEAS?

And Rock – pensioners CAN be brought around given the right approach – we only need to discover what that approach is. If we believe in a political project, it is up to us to find a way to sell it – not curse elderly folk who dont’t get it

Stoker

Well said Valerie @11.12pm

Nana Smith

Anyone seen anything about this on the bbc?

Ordinary citizens occupying Parlt Sq for 9 days to protest against our shell of a democracy

link to occupydemocracy.org.uk

Sweep

For a chuckle –

If you go to the Scottish Labour twitter page, scroll down about halfway down the page to a tweet by Duncan McNeil Oct 13, saying:

“Big no in SNP heartland leaves Salmond stranded at Holyrood”

Is he being sarcastic? Click on the link…

Marcia

Tomorrow’s front page for The Times;

link to twitter.com

Graeme Doig

Grouse Beater

I don’t have a problem with compulsory voting but I think there is something sinister in fineing folk for not handing over information for a voting system which is not compulsory.

Ian Brotherhood

@Marcia –

Ha!

Brilliant!

“And finally, Jack McConnell says Labour has lost its way in Scotland, and it’s got fuck all to do with him…”

TJenny

Apparently there was 97% of voters registered to vote but only 84% eventually did. Would those newly registered then have had second thoughts on voting, maybe after being told they would be chased for Poll Tax or some other threat? Or John Reid’s advice ‘If you don’t know, don’t vote’?

Or is the difference perhaps those who have always been registered to vote, but never do? Why?

Is there any way to find out where those folk are, why they didn’t vote and get them onboard and voting? ( for SNP and indy parties, obvs). 🙂

Valerie

Hmmm, wonder what Lord McConnells’ angle is here, because it is a very withering attack on Labour, and saying Nicola presents an even bigger challenge to them….

Marcia

Cadogan Enright

There now has to be an engagement with those who voted NO. The debunking of all the scare stories that we had over the past two year to alleviate all their fears would help. The actions of the Tory led government will no doubt help to see that many of their fears were in fact baseless.

This where the grassroots movement would be effective, going door to door and speaking to the No’s now that the referendum is out of the way and they don’t have any immediate fear. Assuring them that their fears were groundless might help to win them over. Reminding voters of the role that Labour played in the referendum in the run to the General Election might sway votes away from them.

Kenny

Don’t bother feeding the troll who comes on here. If you analyse its posts, you will see it is not even a citizen of our bonnie land as is clearly talking about Scotland as a foreign country. Let’s be constructive and put our energy to better use, that’s the YES way!

Molly

Well Mr Podmore,

What bit do you want to rebuild?

Who do you want to unite with ?

You’ve got the land, the licenses, the oil money, the state broadcaster, every newspaper bar one , the CBI and pretty much every establishment body on your side so what do you need the Yes voters for?

Could it be to come out of Europe your going to have to persuade most ( but not all) of those 45%?

I’ll tell you what , I was 18 when Margaret Thatcher came into power and promised everyone they could buy their council house and buy shares in Sid or whoever and the British public fell over themselves to get their hands on them well seems her policies live on .

Until enough folk find out that’ when the shit hits the fan and there’s no one around caring enough to hold their hand when their pension turns out to be worth shit or when they’re sitting , unable to walk or look after themselves and not one solitary person cares because the housing market bubble has just burst or Europe decides that really Stuttgart or Berlin really would be a better option for the money markets you can stay with your cronies on the No side

. Me , I’ve got a better Scotland to work on and it doesn’t involve one Tory, Labour , Libdem or Ukippers , Scotland’s pretty united from where I’m sitting.

Rock

Cadogan Enright,

“And Rock – pensioners CAN be brought around given the right approach – we only need to discover what that approach is. If we believe in a political project, it is up to us to find a way to sell it – not curse elderly folk who dont’t get it”

Yes, there is an approach. Remove free care and travel passes. Remove any freebies they get and transfer them to the more deserving poor who did vote Yes. They will see the error of their ways then.

I am totally convinced that the 70% elderly who voted No are stubborn, selfish British nationalists who will never vote for independence.

Due to their age, haven’t they seen and experienced what has been done to Scotland during the last 35 years? Haven’t they experienced mass emigration from Scotland? Did they have no sympathy for the hundreds of thousands living in poverty today, thanks to the union?

Neither are they too stupid, nor are they easily frightened, apart from the really weak and old.

They knowingly made a selfish decision so that they would not have to face any change in their lives and be able to remain proud of the British Empire to their death.

But if you manage to figure out a way to convince them, let me know.

Natasha

@Will Podmore
How would you feel if one of your two grandsons was found starved to death weighing just over five stone because he had Asperger’s Syndrome and didn’t know what to do after losing his benefits? That’s the present reality in the UK as a result of successive Westminster administrations, both Tory and Labour, and New Labour has no plans to change anything if they get into power. Their only strategy is to out-Tory the Tories.

Glad to see you think this is acceptable. You know NOTHING about Scotland or its people. Stay out of our affairs.

ben madigan

@ taranaich – great record you’ve put together – well done indeed.Should be sent round as an example to other nationalist parties e.g plaid cymru, sinn fein and the irsp in NI. I’m sure they would find the format helpful for setting up their own dossiers

@natasha and others – don’t despair about your children with hidden disabilities – they will pull through and find their path in life.

My son has epilepsy and suffered attacks with the stress of university exams (even though his illness was controlled with medication). His last attack was in june of this year and he said his memory was shot to pieces for a week or 10 days afterwards.
Just allow them time to get over the setbacks and help them focus on going forward towards achieving their goals, whether academic or otherwise

crazycat

@ Graeme Doig

I’m having trouble finding an up-to-date link (David Icke doesn’t count!) but I think that it is compulsory to be on the electoral roll, even though voting itself is not mandatory.

I did find this : link to gov.uk

which confirms that local councils in Scotland will be sending out letters this month and next, to tell people whether they have been moved automatically to the new system, or whether some details do not match other government records, or are missing.

There’s also this : link to gov.uk
about raising public awareness of the new system.

Neither of these links mentions compulsion to register, and I am not clear what happens to people who are still not registered at all, so won’t get a letter. Presumably the government hopes the public awareness campaign will reach them. Or maybe an entry in the records they are cross-checking with will trigger a letter.

I’m slightly more hopeful than I was a few days ago that all the new voters will still be on the roll; the next task will be persuading them it’s still worth turning out to vote!

Marcia

TJenny

I think the turnout was a little bit higher than 84% ofwhat the official figures suggest it to be. The reason being that the electoral register in places such as Dundee and Glasgow are way out due to many factors. Years ago there were an army of canvassers who collected the data by visiting all the premises until they obtained all the voters details. Now it is done my letters to the households instead of the personal visits by the council.

I have seen in the recent referendum, children registered by their thick parents who did not read the form correctly, someone who has been deceased for 12 years, students who left 3 or 4 years ago still on the register, same person registered at two different flats in the same building. There are more examples which skew the turnout figures which I could go on about but I do wish they would bring back the canvassers.

GrahamB

Too wee, too poor and too stupid they said.
We disproved the first two over the campaign but unfortuately the third was beyond our educational efforts. That’s where all our efforts should now be directed.
Last weekend I encountered friends who had been activists but had not been following Wings although they had heard of the ‘mythical’ Wee Blue Book! I’ve supplied them links to Wings and others and I’ll show them the last copy of the WBB that I have when I meet them again in a couple of weeks. (I gave it to a girl on Byres Road to help convince her old auntie and she returned it next day, job done). We need to make sure our activists are well up to the mark so they can pass on the facts to the malleable members of the public.
Fortunately the ‘Vow’ has a timetable of short term objectives which will allow us to keep everyone focused on the big picture.
Keep the Faith

Ian Brotherhood

@Will Podmore –

The proverbial’s in your court pal…

Natasha

I’ve been doing some research on our friend Podmore. He isn’t Scottish, he doesn’t live in Scotland and he knows nothing about Scotland. He just thinks he has a right to tell us what to do. And every time he comes on here I will be reminding him that he actively supports a situation in which mentally disabled people starve to death in pain, fear and lonely desperation in one of the richest countries in the world in 2014. Don’t think I won’t do it, Podmore, because I WILL – EVERY SINGLE TIME.

bookie from hell
Ian Brotherhood

@Natasha –

Please share what you know, and save us all the bother of having to deal with ‘it’ – does ‘it’, as far as you know, have other online names?

Natasha

Will Podmore

I’m still waiting for a reply to my question about how you would feel if it were one of your grandsons who starved to death. Gone awfully quiet, suddenly, haven’t you? Not so cocky when you have to answer a real question about real people. Just like all bullies – a coward at heart.

Marcia

The Matt cartoon archived,

link to archive.today

GrahamB

T Jenny @ 12.01:
Baron Reid’s advice was actually ‘ If you don’t know, vote NO’. Surely one of the worst examples of negativity from the intensely negative, unambitious and uninspired NO campaign.

Natasha

Ian Brotherhood @12.23am

Simple – just look for him on facebook. Chief librarian at the British School of Osteopathy, lives in Wansted, studied at University of Essex, facebook page crammed full of Better Together crap. Hypocrite, liar, toerag. And before he tries to have a go about Stu living in Bath, the difference is that Stu grew up in Scotland and is intelligent and informed. This guy is just a self-satisfied prick – oh, and a coward. Still no reply to my question as far as I can see.

Natasha

@Marcia 12.25am

How come you always have the best links? 🙂

Valerie

There are so many people living in England that appear to spend large chunks of their time on FB, blogs and newsthreads, slagging off the people of Scotland, slagging off the SNP, or Alex, or Nicola – when none of these people have any impact on their lives!

I’m damn sure if the WM govt. wasn’t impacting on my life, I wouldn’t be on here or anywhere else! Why aren’t these people directing their ire at Westminister if they are unhappy, or do they just hate the Scots?

crazycat

@ Ian, and Natasha

link to amazon.co.uk
link to amazon.co.uk

I suspect this is him – the topics fit with comments on here.

Graeme Doig

Crazycat

I think many of the 120000 who came out of the woodwork to register for the referendum may not wish for all their details to be tied into the govt system for various reasons.

That the are being threatened with fines if they don’t comply doesn’t sit right with of in a system which does not demand compulsory voting.

Ian Brotherhood

@Natasha –

I don’t ‘do’ Facebook, but have no reason to doubt your research.

In any event, you appear to have put him to the sword.

If only all the trolls were so easy!

More power to ye.

Graeme Doig

Nice work Natasha

What a stunted piece of shite wp is.

crazycat

@ Graeme Doig

I’m sure you’re right about some of them, though I was really surprised when I was showing the registration forms to people who came into our shop to fill them in, and explaining about the edited version of the register and the opt-out. I assumed they would all want to opt out, but a lot of them didn’t.

Being sent junk mail isn’t the same as having the government poking its nose in, of course, but it was still not what I had expected.

Ian Brotherhood

@crazycat (12.39) –

Cheers.

I did click, and read…hmmm…

I suspect we won’t see that person back here, unless s/he would like to offer an apology to Natasha.

Stoker

Ian @ 12.23am,

It goes by the name “Will” over on newsnet.
It’s a Troll and a coward – Natasha’s got it pegged.
Well done, Natasha.

Scot Finlayson

The Arch Traitor Niall Ferguson and establishment likspittle has just won an award in Mexico called the` Freedom Award`
His quote “Freedom is not loved as it should be”
He spent the whole of the run up to the referendum saying Scotland would not be able to handle its own Freedom.

link to itbusinessnet.com

Stoker
hetty

Natasha @9.09pm

Your son should be claiming and receiving Employment Support Allowance and DLA. I do hope he is not left witout any money with you having to support him. Are you aware if National Autistic society and any carers organisations in yor area? In Edinburgh we have No6 One Stop Shop a suppor service run by Autism Initiatives, a national charity working for people with Autism.

Your son must have a social work assessment to access support and services available I hope there ae some. The Scottish government do have an autism strategy, should be lots of info online.

No one with Aspergers should be subjected to having to deal wiht the dwp and on job seekers allowance. It is horrific for them, I hope your son gets some support, he is entitled to it.

Graham Scott

Firstly, Taranaich, fantastic work. I thought your blog post had pushed my anger levels to the peak, but no, I was wrong. The ATOS story has pushed me over the edge.

I am not angry with No voters. I’m a bit (or in some cases a lot) peeved, like everyone else, but not willing to destroy friendships. Not that that will stop me pushing for independence.

Next step for me: show everyone that Westminster is evil, and that we need rid of them. Front door, back door, side door, who cares.

Forward

Related somewhat to the article, I recently explained to a No voter I know how disappointed and hurt i felt about those who voted No in indyref1. He was genuinely surprised. In that moment, I could tell that he felt at once ashamed and stupid and realised he had been duped into voting No. What i learned was the power of explaining to No voters how we honestly feel about the result. To be honest i wanted to throttle him, but after just opening up, looking him in the eye and telling him how I honestly felt, I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t vote No a second time. There’s plenty of talk here about how do we connect with No voters for indyref2 – well, here’s one example of what worked, and i recommend you try it with No voters that you know.

Ken500

How far Scotland has come. One election and two years later a Referendum. Another election (2015) and the Unionists politicians will be gone from Scotland. Then on to a better future. Things have changed dramatically in such a short time. Might have lost a battle but will win the war.

Scotland will get control of the welfare system and help the most vulnerable, The Unionist Politicans will be gone. Westminster are a bunch of crooks.

heedtracker

“The Arch Traitor Niall Ferguson and establishment likspittle has just won an award in Mexico called the` Freedom Award`
His quote “Freedom is not loved as it should be”
He spent the whole of the run up to the referendum saying Scotland would not be able to handle its own Freedom.”

Niall Ferguson also said he would renounce his not Scottish but British citizenship in the Sunday Times the weekend before 18th Sept if we voted Yes, he loves freedom thst much. Scotland has produced some amazing arseholes. Tory, ConDem, Labour you name it, there are some bizarre UKOK cringers out there that don’t make any sense whatsoever. Who knows what the Mexican award bearers thought they were dealing with.

Grouse Beater

Ferguson – Who knows what the Mexican award bearers thought they were dealing with.

He’s probably trying to convince Mexicans they never really owned Texas, and anyhow, they brought the violent territorial wars upon themselves.

Grouse Beater

Graeme Doig: I don’t have a problem with compulsory voting but I think there is something sinister in fining folk for not handing over information for a voting system which is not compulsory.

Excellent point.
Some Aberdeen councillors (and others) have declared war on Yes voters – they see an SNP supporter under every thistle.

Kenny

Natasha has found out that the troll is “Chief librarian at the British School of Osteopathy”. Chief librarian! He attacked one of my posts on another thread, but I did not even bother responding, because the fact of the matter was that he had completely misunderstood what I wrote 100% and I was so ashamed of such a person’s stunted powers of comprehension of the English language! He writes about trade unions? I thought it was a UKIP loon who had never even graduated from high school!

More power to your keyboard, Natasha!

bjsalba

Required reading/watching for those who curse the NO voters.

Noam Chomsky Manufacturing consent.

Dorothy Devine

Square haggis – thanks for that, hair standing on end!

Taranaich – brilliant , I look forward to the next episode.

Ian B , I needed someone to give me permission to be pissed off with NO voters of my acquaint ,thanks.

I am still torn ‘twixt grief and rage.

bookie from hell

smiling vulture

telegraph Sept 16th

Alistair Darling and Douglas Alexander said the pledge was cast-iron and could be implemented in a much speedier and less risky manner than separating from the United Kingdom.

The three UK party leaders made the vow in a signed letter which appears on the front page of the Daily Record newspaper, which is popular in Scotland’s traditional Labour heartlands. Both sides think they will decide the result.

Alan Cochrane Oct 17th

“vow” dreamed up by the Daily Record newspaper and signed by the leaders of the three Westminster Unionist leaders.

BornOptimist

Is there any possibility at all that the Government held back on this information until after the referendum?

link to theguardian.com

john king

Ian Brotherhood says
“(The photies alone are priceless – Carmichael? Oh, FFS, pass me a bucket…)”

That was Munguin,
how the hell Tris managed to get those Muppets to pose with him is a mystery but he ho funny all the same, gaun yersel Tris. 🙂

john king

Oh and let me add my congratulations Taranaich that’s quite a forensic piece of work there and needs high levels of public exposure!

john king

My favourite pic is the one with the sun shining out of Duggies arse,:)
I’m sure he sets up those pictures himself,
like the other one which appeared to show a nearby bridge in the background as a halo around his head.

Chris Turner

Mark Steel kind hits the nail on the head, but cowardice ranks above idiocy as to why Scotland voted No.

Sadly although Social Media exposes politcal folly at every step, Scots folk will not change their voting pattern in 2015 despite increased party memberships. The nation has shown the world what we are made of and this will not change by May 2015.

heedtracker

Who got that BP Clair field £10bn spend? Norway, 5 million people not part of something bigger safer stronger teamGB http://www.kvaerner.com

Go ahead, invest another £10bn in any country except the Scotland region, they’re too small too poor too stupid up there and 55% want to keep it that way.

No no no...Yes

bookie from hell 8:14am
BornOptimist 8:34am
Both your comments are clear evidence that Mark Steels’s description regarding some of our fellow citizens is accurate.
The 55% were lied to about the oil, despite the Clair field outrage of sending people home until aftet the refeendum being raised- in fact it was even mentioned on one of the BBC debates.
The Vow- Alan Cochrane- the man that was on a bonus if he helped secure a NO vote

link to thedrum.com

It is going to be hard work getting our independence when faced with this mountain of bile.
Need some positive vibes, so going to the 45 rally in Perth today.

Graeme Doig

Taranaich 10.43pm

Just got around to reading your list of ‘shame’. Excellent work Mr T.

Great that you’ve included info on the SNP MP’s as way of contrast.

Rigmac7

@BornOptimist

Didn’t that story run in 2011?

john king

Anyone fancy a wee chat wi oor Wullie?
link to facebook.com

caz-m

Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael said SNP ministers must accept the “No” vote, instead of getting on the “betrayal bandwagon”.

I must strongly disagree with you there Alistair.

I hope these NO voters do feel as if they have betrayed Scotland. I do hope that they are on some kind of guilt trip. I do hope that they now realise that Scotland is about to get shafted and that NO voters played a major part in that happening.

But you have to ask, why is Alistair Carmicheal getting in early with this word “betrayal”.

Does he already know that Scotland has just took part in one of the biggest con tricks in world politics.

No wonder commentators like Max Keiser of RT TV, can’t stop laughing at us.

john king

Oh and I meant to add,
BE POLITE,
we don’t want the good people of Wanstead in North East London to think we’re all heathens up here do we? 🙂

Graeme Doig

Anyone with any details of rally in Perth today.

Valerie

Seems to me the unionists are rattled, as there is no real outcry about another referendum, except from them carping on! The only ones who mention independence as a word are the SNP, and that is party policy, so tough.

caz-m

BornOptimist

The good thing about all these stories appearing regarding oil finds, shipbuilding orders on the Clyde etc… is that they cannot be used again in “Project Fear mark II”.

Ian wood can’t suddenly appear and tell us there is no oil, Joanne Lamont can’t tell us we will loss the Royal Navy shipbuilding order, because the contracts will have been signed.

So, the more of these type of stories that are coming out, the more it actually works in our favour, because it is all the less ammunition the enemy has for future wars.

“Every cloud…”

Robert Peffers

@Andy-B says: 17 October, 2014 at 5:56 pm:

“So how do we get from 45% to 51% without offending anyone?”

I think many of the older members of the independence movement are still standing far too close to, in fact they are one of, the trees. We need to stand further back to be able to see the extent of the wood.

So, now that your out from among the other trees, please turn round and have a look at the wood. That wee copse you joined all those years ago has grown from a few trees. It is now a vast forest with 82,017 full grown trees and an undergrowth that is almost impenetrable. It’s going to be almost impossible to chop down and even harder to control from growing bigger.

The task now is to identify what has caused that growth. Notice it is not a steady growth but an accelerated growth showing little signs of returning to a steady pace. What is causing the growth is the realisation that Westminster is treating Scotland, Wales, N. Ireland and most large areas of England lying outside the M25 ring road as a feed stock for, not just London but, the Financial sector of the city of London.

They have always done this but the effect grew greatly by Westminster changing the basic set-up of what began as a bipartite Union of Kingdoms, into a quadratic union of countries but reserved for itself the position of an unelected de facto parliament of England. This in turn is dominated by the square mile, City of London, financial sector. In turn dominated by the, “Bullingdon Boys”, who lead all the Unionist political parties.

The former United Kingdom can never be other than an undemocratic set-up while Westminster remains the unelected as such, “Parliament of the Kingdom of England”. Face it – The United Kingdom is no more and we are now a quadratic federation of four countries with only three of them with elected parliaments. Westminster, (still calling itself the UK Parliament), is actually an unelected as such parliament of England and is now attempting to prevent everyone else from interfering in how England runs England and thus the whole former United Kingdom.

As long as there is no properly elected parliament of England situated out with Westminster the system of government will continue to be actually London’s financial sector running England and ruling over the other three countries. There is actually no real United Kingdom now.

ronnie anderson

@ John King ( Podmore) In a word NAW.

Stoker

Kenny,

Re your post @7.50am.
The troll did not “completely misunderstand” one of your previous posts. It very deliberately twists and misinterprets peoples words in order to disrupt, provoke and anger them. That is its style.

It badly attempts to come across as educated and intelligent.
Go over to NNS and you’ll see another perfect example of its attempts.

Standard advice to combat trolls, they say, is to starve them,
don’t respond directly to them – do not feed the trolls.

Trolls also detest being exposed because that means they failed in their mission.
I also wonder how its employers would feel about its behaviour and lies?
🙂

James Dow A voice from the diaspora

GrahamB reply. What about the missing fourth too?
TOO SCARED

bookie from hell

Gordon Brown

“devolved powers will ensure that no poll tax, no bedroom tax and no enforced rail privatisation will ever be enforced on Scotland”

1.english votes,english laws
2.fracking

ensure my @ss

McHaggis

This –

Chitterinlicht says:
17 October, 2014 at 7:10 pm
If No voters were shouting from the roof with anger at broken vow I would feel sorry for them. But they are not.

All of the no voters I know (and there were many) are just back to getting about their lives. Not one has mentioned feeling betrayed, the vow, or anything like regret.

McHaggis

The good thing about all these stories appearing regarding oil finds, shipbuilding orders on the Clyde etc… is that they cannot be used again in “Project Fear mark II”.

and you seriously believe that?

They roll out exactly the same scare stories every time Scotland gets a bit uppity.

heedtracker

Trolls also detest being exposed because that means they failed in their mission.
I also wonder how its employers would feel about its behaviour and lies?
🙂

Ask my Slovene girlfriend, gorgeous pouting link to notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com

She’s now on the vote No farce Lord Smith THE VOW not a chance in hell commission thing. To be fair to Adam, he always said Scottish independence would never happen and now he’s going to make absolutely certain THE VOW doesn’t either because England is the UK and Scotland is merely a region to these guys. 55% proud Scots buts agreed.

No no no...Yes

Graeme Doig 10:03am

The Perth and Kinross45 rally is at St. Matthew’s church hall,Tay Street, from 1-4pm. Pete Wishart, RIC, WFI and Greens.

Luigi

McHaggis says:
18 October, 2014 at 10:17 am

This –

Chitterinlicht says:
17 October, 2014 at 7:10 pm
If No voters were shouting from the roof with anger at broken vow I would feel sorry for them. But they are not.

All of the no voters I know (and there were many) are just back to getting about their lives. Not one has mentioned feeling betrayed, the vow, or anything like regret.

Early days. Once the poor are completely bled dry, the next in line will be the lower middle class, which will be sacrificed in order to protect the dogs at the top. Those NO voters are still in denial. When austerity finally catches up with them and bites them hard, they will have no option but to face the harsh reality of the destroyed hopes and aspirations of our nation that they participated in. I wouldn’t like to be a NO voter during the next 5-10 years. We will all suffer but at least 45% of us will have a clear conscience. The NO voetsr may be in a comfy denial frame of mind at present, but this will soon be replaced by something deeply unpleasant. Give it time.

ronnie anderson

@ caz_m Carmichiel will keep askin for the SNP to except the NO vote in the full knowledge that the 45% are the people who wont except it, he can only snipe at the SNP & the SNP dont control the majority of the grassroots movement.

Like Lamond telling Alex Salmond to rein in the the Yes campainers again she knew the Grassroots were a body unto themselves. Thats what frightens them people with minds of there own & not of the political partys thought police.

Grouse Beater

Plodmore? Trolls? Back to reality. Morag going on and on about a clean ballot and only idiots think conspiracies abound. The Referendum was honest, and that overworked word, ‘transparent.’ Who are they kidding?

How many among us believe social sites, e-mails from the SNP to members and communications between SNP executives were not monitored constantly, key elements and regular reports forwarded to Number 10, campaign plans altered accordingly?

We forget, the Nos voted for more of that too. They voted for a kind of electronic Stasi prying into our lives.

Graeme Doig

No no no…Yes

Thanks for that. Is a church hall sufficient for potential turn out?

john king

Chitternlicht says
“If No voters were shouting from the roof with anger at broken vow I would feel sorry for them. But they are not.”

No and they never will,
since the minute they stick their heads above the parapet they will meet the withering gaze of the YES voters who cannot forgive or forget!

It can be the only time in history where the majority are the one’s who are the marginalized, and they did it to themselves, trouble is they dragged the rest of us with them.

No no no...Yes

heedtracker 10:26am

Adam Tomkins is also a Republican.

link to en.wikipedia.org
“Professor Tomkins is a member of the group, Republic, a British republican organisation advocating the replacement of the monarchy with a democratically-elected head of state, and has published Our Republican Constitution, a republican re-interpretation of the United Kingdom’s constitution which claims that the constitution is deeply influenced by republican principles, despite its monarchic nature.”

It surprises me that such a person was given an invite to the Smith Commission.

jacksg

Morning all,

just catching up with posts from last night.

Taranaich bloody brilliant, keep it up.

the photos were hilarious especially the Alistair darling eagle Muppet..i am still laughing!

No no no...Yes

Graeme Doig 10:36am

Perth rally- it is the same venue for the recent WFI rally that had 1,000 attendees

Bugger (the Panda)

For the No drones Who return to their blinkered lives as normal


First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.”

Drones, they are coming for you.

caz-m

Graeme Doig

I hope you can get a link up for the Perth Rally.

We were at George SQ last weekend, and it really does give you a lift.

So, if you can make it to Perth today, I hope you have a similar day out as the one we had in Glasgow. It motivates people to start putting the YES posters back up on their windows or the car stickers back on the car and the YES badges back on the jackets.

The George Sq Rally turned out to be a seven hour marathon, but it was worth every minute.

And you are back in amongst fellow Wingers and other people of the fantastic YES Movement.

terry

Great point Luigi re the lower middle class no voters. Apologies if the following point has ben made already – LORD SMITH OF KELVIN – who is leading the Scottish devolution consultation – is the Chairman of Scottish and Southern Energy – the company that is overcharging the north of Scotland for energy and plunging many households (including 70% of the Western Isles) into fuel poverty. link to maciverblog.co.uk

Dan1973

As a No voter I have been lurking on the site for a while, most of the comments and articles are well thought out, even though I disagree with the majority. It’s good to get the feel of what the other site feel and think. I have noticed though that there does seem to be a growing feeling on the site that anyone who voted no must have been, to paraphrase, to thick to understand the issue, or gullible enough to swallow the lies apparently peddled by the BT campaign. In my experience the people I know who voted no, couldn’t give a toss about the vow or extra powers, they simply were happy with the status quo and saw no reason to change. If a majority is to be achieved then comments like this will do you no favours. You need to win minds as well as heads. A few of my no voting friends made the point that if everything was decided before hand eg currency, eu membership, defence etc then put to a vote then they would have possibly voted yes. It was the uncertainty that put them off, not a lack of understanding. The yes campaign has no right to the moral high ground, as the no campaign doesn’t either. Voting No doesn’t make me any less Scottish then voting yes, to brand no voters as unpatriotic is also not going to help as is the constant references to the vote being null and void. There possibly are enough swing voters out there to make a change but slagging us off isn’t going to get any of us to.

Ian Brotherhood

Thistle’s fundraiser appears to have stalled. Can we please give it a wee kick?

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/scottish-independence-live-events–2

galamcennalath

Taranaich says:
“The idea that Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling of all people dare to proclaim their supposed enthusiasm for devolution absolutely sickens me knowing what I know now. How in the hell did anyone believe these people?

link to wildernessofpeace.wordpress.com

Excellent analysis. Obvious who the anti-devolution MPs are, all LAB/Con/Lib Scottish ones! So if there had been Scottish only votes on Scottish laws at WM, the Scotland Bill wouldn’t have passed.

There is no such thing as a pro-devolution Unionist. In their minds it’s a con to try to contain the aspirations of the Scottish people. It’s about tossing a few powers north, but retaining finacial control.

t was also about having SLab stooges in Holyrood running things for their Imperial Masters in London – at least that bit didn’t exactly work out!

Grouse Beater

Terry: Lord Smith of Kelvin – who is leading the Scottish devolution consultation – is the Chairman of Scottish and Southern Energy –

He has a piss-poor track record overseeing companies.

Where has it all gone?’ – grousebeater.wordpress

Bugger (the Panda)

OT

Iain Macwhirter bumping his gums about Federalism being the only thing left.

Jeez, somebody please remind me of the definition of stupidity?

At his age surely he should have learned about abandoning failed and unworkable ideas and moving on?

The Tree of Liberty

Taranaich, respect!

Barontorc

Don’t take any direction from the ‘move along now, nothing to see here crowd’, when it’s clear they don’t even want to consider the dirty tricks that most certainly could have been, so most definitely were, deployed.

Don’t think for one minute there were no shenanigans from the UK establishment machine? If you are you so gullible over this, when does this come to a crashing stop – or will we persist in biting the proverbial bullet?

If 4,285,323 people registered to vote, yet only 3,619,915 votes were declared, what happened to the 665,408 who were registered, but their vote did not get declared?

How come the only pieces of information that point to skullduggery are against YES – not one instance has been turned up to show NO votes going wayward?

If we Scots follow the perceived wisdom that one should always learn from one’s mistakes, we should be the smartest people on this planet, but so long as some don’t want to frighten the horses, we’ll remain absurdly dim.

Ian Brotherhood

re Smith/SSE etc, this:

link to archive.today

bookie from hell

The funniest thing about the Record Vow is that the No campaigners are now trashing it more than YES

brian wilson–the scotsman

“let’s all join hands and talk about “the vow” and how – surprise, surprise”

Kenny

@ Luigi
“Early days. Once the poor are completely bled dry, the next in line will be the lower middle class, which will be sacrificed in order to protect the dogs at the top. Those NO voters are still in denial. When austerity finally catches up with them and bites them hard, they will have no option but to face the harsh reality of the destroyed hopes and aspirations of our nation that they participated in. I wouldn’t like to be a NO voter during the next 5-10 years. We will all suffer but at least 45% of us will have a clear conscience. The NO voetsr may be in a comfy denial frame of mind at present, but this will soon be replaced by something deeply unpleasant. Give it time.”

I agree 100%. I am independent myself in every way and can fend for myself. But I know that is not enough, you have to always care for and defend the vulnerable in society: because if you do not defend them, when the times comes there will be no one to defend you. This is the Martin Niemöller principle:

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

I also know it is important to stand up for every single minority group, because no matter who you are, there is always a “minority category” into which you can be put. It is also part of being a human being, whether you are religious or an atheist humanist, you must help the less strong in society.

Every religion and philosophy says this; those who say “greed is good” or that the vulnerable are to be despised (a la WM politics, Daily Mail) are like criminals born with a genetic kink.

I get a sense that indy will come in a bittersweet way, only because they decide to frack under rich people’s houses or some tasteless remark by PM Boris or Deputy PM Farange towards the Scottish blue-rinse brigade, who will desert NO in a fit of anger only because their wallet has been hurt.

[I would rather have had it on 18 September. Of course, a referendum is not the only way: it can be done in WM by one simple vote to repeal the Act of Union 1707…]

I am glad that the YES movement is more than just a call for Scotland to be a sovereign nation. There are many ways in which activists are also doing very good public work, just take a look at the fine, upstanding gentleman Darren Carnegie in George Square (watch him on livestream every day).

I also hope people who are feeling vulnerable or frightened because of cuts and other things can come on here and get good advice and the little help that we on here might be able to give — because in life if you do not help others, there will be no one else around to help YOU.

Cameron will find this out when he is turfed out the minute that the US military-industrial complex no longer has a need for their latest poodle-lickspittle.

No no no...Yes

terry 10:52am

You mentioned Lord Smith is the Chairman of Scottish and Southern Energy . They have a price freeze until 2016 and are using a primate to promote it:
link to sse.co.uk

The Labour Party are promisng a price freeze until 2017. They have Ed Miliband promoting it:
link to action.labour.org.uk

Which one is the most credible?

On a more serious note, what does Lord Smith think of Labour’s price promise? Does believe it? Is it against SSE commercial interests? If he implemented it, would his company and others, just hike the prices in 2017 to make up lost ground. Or is Miliband just making it up as he goes along, just like the VOW?

caz-m

McHaggis 10.21am

Don’t you think that enough voters will have become so immune to “Project Fear” by the time the next Referendum comes along, that they will laugh it off as pure propaganda.

After all, at the start of the campaign in 2012, there was probably about 30% solid YES, by the end of the campaign we were only 200,000 voters short of Full Independence.

So I have faith in you and the rest of the YES Movement, in our ability to inform enough Scots not to be influenced by another round of bullshit from the UK Establishment. (Better known as Project Fear).

handclapping

Ref the cardboard cutout and “respect the result”: Just like the AV result and giving up on PR? Just like GE2010 and give up on tuition fees?
Who does he think we are? Politicians?

Capella

The Occupy Movement is keeping up the pressure but needs to do some brainstorming and come up with a strategy says Immortal Technique
link to on.rt.com

Swami Backverandah

Labour in Scotland wants to fully devolve itself from UK Labour.

Oh. Wait a minute. They actually want full Independence from their overlords.

I couldn’t make it up, but they sure can.

Today’s Scotsman:
“The Labour for Scotland group backs Holyrood being given full control over income tax, as well as complete responsibility for welfare – a position which goes further than Labour’s existing plans for further devolution.

It also states the party should pledge not to work with the Conservatives in any future Scottish independence referendums or “any other party whose policies are fundamentally at odds with the views of people in Scotland”.

Scottish Labour must be “fully autonomous from its London leadership”, it argues, suggesting the party north of the border should have the right to appoint its own full-time officials and write its own constitution.”

What a bunch of hypocrites.

caz-m

Ronnie Anderson 10.23am

Even our very own Queen Nicola admitted that she has NO control over when the next Referendum will be, she said that,

“The people of Scotland will decide when the next Referendum will be held, not me”

Alistair Carmicheal, I hope you are listening. Stop asking Nicola, start asking us.

Helena Brown