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Thicker than water

Posted on October 09, 2015 by

Much has been made this week of the Scottish Government’s decision to award a water services contract for council buildings, schools, prisons and some other public facilities to an English company (Anglian Water) over the bid by Business Stream, a wholly-owned subsidiary of publicly-owned Scottish Water.

findlaywater

Opponents of the SNP have claimed that the awarding of this contract means that the Scottish Government has somehow privatised the provision of water in Scotland.

Readers may not be completely astonished to learn it’s not true.

In 2005, the Labour/LibDem coalition government in Holyrood brought in the ‘Water Services etc. (Scotland) Act 2005’ to open up competition and force the deregulation of non-domestic water customers.

The Labour-led administration also created the Water Services etc. (Scotland) Act 2005 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2005 which handed the Competition Commission in London the sole power to investigate and make judgments on proposed licence modifications or Scottish Water price-control decisions in cases where the Water Industry Commission for Scotland and the relevant private provider disagreed.

Although created in 2005, the Act didn’t take effect until April 2008, forcing Scottish Water to set up Business Stream in November 2006 to prepare for the change.

Scottish Water’s own website notes:-

“Under the Water Services Act (Scotland) 2005 Scottish Water had to split its operation into wholesale (Scottish Water) and retail (Business Stream) units. Although remaining a part of the Scottish Water group, Business Stream is a new business working completely independently of its parent company in order to ensure fair and transparent retail practice under the rules of the new deregulated marketplace for business customers.”

In April 2008, the new system went live, effectively privatising the provision of water for any non-domestic users. From that point on, all contracts for water provision in non-domestic instances (public bodies, companies and other private enterprises) have had to source their water via one of the providers available.

fattywater

The opposition has demanded that the SNP should ignore tendering rules and award the contract to Business Stream based on the argument that this for-profit company is owned by a public body. But this argument is scuppered by EU procurement policy, as outlined in the EU 2020 strategy.

“The Europe 2020 strategy … stresses that public procurement policy must ensure the most efficient use of public funds and that procurement markets must be kept open EU wide. Obtaining optimal procurement outcomes through efficient procedures is of crucial importance in the context of the severe budgetary constraints and economic difficulties in many EU Member States.

In the face of these challenges, there is a greater need than ever for a functioning and efficient European Procurement Market that can deliver on these ambitious goals.” (European Commission 2011a)

Public procurement policy in Scotland is governed by European rules deriving from the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (OJEU 2010). The Treaty sets out four key fundamental principles that underpin the public procurement rules:

  • Equal treatment: everyone must be treated equally and given an equal chance of winning a contract, and the procurement processes must be fair and not exclude potential suppliers, intentionally or otherwise.
  • Non-discrimination: public bodies must not discriminate between individuals or businesses on the basis of the EU Member State in which they are located. They have a duty not to impede the free movement of workers, goods and businesses between EU Member States.
  • Transparency: public bodies must ensure that their procurement and contracting processes are clear and transparent. Tenderers must be able to clearly understand the process that the public body is following, the qualities that the tenderer is being asked to demonstrate, and the basis on which a contract will be awarded.
  • Proportionality: public bodies have a duty not to include contract requirements and terms that are disproportionate to the size or value of the contract. Tenderers should not, for example, be excluded on the basis of economic strength where their financial capacity is sufficient to meet the actual requirements of the contract. Public sector bodies are obliged to consider these principles throughout their procurements, regardless of whether the full EU procurement rules apply.

These directives are given effect in Scots law by two sets of regulations, both put in place by the last Labour-led Scottish Government:-

It means that the Scottish Government cannot be biased towards any applicant to any contract and must judge each contract on its own merit, according to strictly-defined criteria which leave almost no wiggle room.

In so far as the privatisation of water services in Scotland has occurred, it actually happened in 2005. (The fact that a service was being run as a private contract by a publicly-owned body doesn’t change its fundamental nature.)

Not for the first time, Labour left a timebomb ticking and are now blaming the SNP for the fact that it’s exploded.

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  1. 09 10 15 12:43

    Thicker than water | Speymouth

  2. 09 10 15 17:44

    Thicker than water | Politics Scotland | Scoop...

239 to “Thicker than water”

  1. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

    Although the Acts in question are Scottish and not Westminster led, therefore the Scottish Parliament does have the power to amend them, unfortunately the lack of a majority until 2011 meant the SNP were tied to the newly privatised non-domestic water system until that point.

    By the time that they had a majority the system had been up and running for several years and if the SNP had tried to remove water provisions from being open to public procurement, they would have had to have compensated the private businesses that had now been operating within that space – an action that would have been cripplingly expensive, especially for a finance minister with no powers to borrow money and a fixed budget.

  2. Tony Little says:

    Thanks, Scott. This confirms what I was thinking, although I was not sure about Business Stream’s official status.

    On twitter (I know, I know) someone was suggesting that Bus Stream could NOT bid for jobs in England as it was still ‘officially’ a public body. Is this not true then?

  3. mogabee says:

    My answer to all this crap? SNP/SNP..simples ;D

  4. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

    “Bus Stream could NOT bid for jobs in England as it was still ‘officially’ a public body. Is this not true then?”

    Its an independent private company that is 100% owned by a public body. It can operate wherever it wishes to. Who owns it makes no difference to where they can pursue work.

  5. Derick fae Yell says:

    There is also the minor matter that the Water Industry Commission for Scotland, in May 2010, estimated the savings to the public purse of tendering out metered water supplies to public bodies as £90m-110m Net Present Value over 15 years, based on Business Stream’s performance.
    http://www.watercommission.co.uk/UserFiles/Documents/Grant%20Thornton%20CBA%20report%20December%202010.pdf

    The Anglian contract claims a further £40m saving over four years.
    http://waterbriefing.org/home/contracts/item/11374-awb-wins-%C2%A3320m-scottish-public-sector-water-contract

    The Scottish Government could repeal or amend the 2005 Act and subsequent Statutory Instruments, but the question then arises, what budget lines will be cut to pay for it?

    Imagine the crescendo of SNP BAD if the Government has to cut £100m from other services!

  6. ClanDonald says:

    It’s not just Labour who have been screaming #SNPbad this time, though, it’s also the greens and SSP.

    A tip for the small indy parties: if you want to win the second vote from SNP voters you won’t succeed by slagging off their party, all you’re achieving is making them resent you.

  7. handclapping says:

    Tuba man doesn’t want you to know that Anglian Water is actually a Canadian pension fund so we have the water going to a country largely composed of our fellow countrymen cleared from the land by those who think we’re Better Together. And our railways going Dutch with our old trading partners til the E*****h decided to go to war with them and bought our lordlings out to close their back door.

    Thats called internationalism, what Tuba wants is nationalism, “British” aka E*****h nationalism.

  8. Brian Powell says:

    For some inexplicable reason Labour thought there would always be a Labour administration in Holyrood, and in Westminster!

    But just in case the SNP had cttnrol then Westminster would make the decisions.

    Or something.

  9. john king says:

    Can there be…is it possible… that there is a single Scottish civil servant working for the Scottish government still a unionist when they listen to this utter drivel from people like

  10. Ranald Lithgow says:

    Surely ScotGov could’ve done the Labour thing and just awarded the contract to BusinessStream

    Against the rules? That’s the Slab way

  11. john king says:

    Can there be…is it possible… that there is a single Scottish civil servant working for the Scottish government still a unionist when they listen to this utter mindless drivel from people like Neil Findley and Blair McDougall?

  12. Atypical_Scot says:

    I don’t think SNP are bad, I think SNP are good.

    I don’t think Anglian Water are good, I think Anglian Water are bad.

    Environmental record of Anglian Water is very bad.

    However, they do have a progressive outlook to fracking with a lot of work already done in infrastructure development (special pipes etc) to control known contamination of fracking.

    Does that make Anglian Water a good choice?

  13. Stoker says:

    Scott Minto wrote:
    “Not for the first time, Labour left a timebomb ticking and are now blaming the SNP for the fact that it’s exploded.”

    Aye, and they call us insurgents, excellently put Scott.
    Thank’s for a very good article exposing these pishflappers.

  14. bookie from hell says:

    Britain Elects ?@britainelects · 1m1 minute ago
    Liberal Democrat GAIN Aird & Loch Ness (Highland) from SNP.

  15. heedtracker says:

    Can’t make it much clearer than that. Bliar MacDougal really is one extraordinary shyster.

  16. liz g says:

    Wee bit of forewarning Rev …
    Think the same thing is going to happen to Historic Scotland.
    So get ready for the hysterical Tweets.

  17. liz says:

    So called journalist Glenn Campbell is trolling MT on twitter, despicable man.

    He needs to be brought down a peg or two.
    Obv getting to speak on big BBC gone to his head.
    Come on twitterati get stuck in

  18. HandandShrimp says:

    EU competition rules are labyrinthine and onerous. It was clear that the Scottish Government were reluctant to do this but the rules are not easily circumvented. The delays and further evaluation have resulted in improved bids so the process in itself has been beneficial to the Scottish Government budget. I think the bit that has been missing from the headlines is the portion of the £350m that will go straight back to Scottish Water (I think it will be a pretty hefty proportion).

    On a separate note, it strikes me that if SNP MSP’s were to talk about English companies in the tone that Neil Findlay has we wouldn’t see two seconds pass before the “racist” headlines hit the press. How come it is alright for Findlay and Tubaman to go down the “boo hiss nasty foreigners” route?

  19. john king says:

    huh?
    not a clue how that happened.

  20. Chitterinlicht says:

    Good article Scott.

    I couldnt bring myself to engage with Neil Findlay on this but all they are doing is showing just how unfit they are for government.

    Add in Kezia FMQ performances and you see a party in terminal decline.

    If they ever got back in all they would have to work within procurement rules (assuming england does not take us out of EU)

    All these comments will come back to haunt them as the internet is an elephant and doesnt forget.

    The biggest part of “underspend” was £221m SAVED from EU procurment of rail franchise.

    Bunch of clowns.

  21. One_Scot says:

    ‘Explain this nationalism thing to me again.’

    To be fair to Blair his IQ level is probably not the highest, so for him to ask for help is probably not surprising.

  22. Lesley-Anne says:

    So the Labour party in cahoots with theLib Dems screws BIG TIME the future Scottish Government with their fanciful ideas contained in their Water Services etc. (Scotland) Act 2005 and Water Services etc. (Scotland) Act 2005 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2005.

    Fortunately for them but unfortunately for the current government the rules did not come into force until 2008 … AFTER they were kicked out of office.

    Labour and Lib Dems know that these rules apply to everything concerning Scottish Water. If they don’t then what the hell have they been doing because the majority of bampots currently sitting in *ahem* opposition were actually in power until 2007 were they not?

    Any argument that Labour, Lib Dems or even the Tories have over this procurement by Anglian Water is further sunk below the water line, apologies for the pun 😉 , by the E.U. procurement policy. It does not take a genius to figure out that if a country is part of the E.U., and Scotland was the last time I checked 😉 , then the E.U. procurement policy must be followed which means the Scottish government’s hands are tied. Much as they would have liked to keep the business in Scotland as part of Scottish Water they can’t.

    It is time those complaining the loudest shut the ****up. They either know NOTHING or are ignoring the TRUTH for their own personal gain!

    In the case of the tuba player I would suggest that he knows nothing AND is ignoring the truth!

  23. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

    I thought you may also like these links to some historic articles:-

    2005 – Former Labour MP and MSP Sam Galbraith saying privatise Scottish Water or go broke.

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/privatise-water-or-scotland-will-go-broke-1-674608#axzz3o4PEat1F

    2006 – Fury at Gordon Browns attempt to privatise Scottish Water – Only thwarted as power over it was given to Holyrood in the 2003 Scottish Water act so London couldn’t authorise sale.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/2934740/Fury-at-Brown-plans-for-Scottish-Water.html

  24. The Man from Del Monte says:

    Who are these people to demand anyone ‘stand up for Scotland’? They fought tooth and nail for this outcome, so their dissatisfaction is inconsequential. They will get their comeuppance in 2016.

  25. Steve B says:

    One other fact is that Scottish Water is still the wholesaler and will actually be the corporation physically supplying the water. All Anglian Water will be doing is supplying the meters, billing system and customer service, etc together with water efficiency advice (whatever that is).

    So any environmental concerns about Anglian Water should be relevant here as they won’t actually get to touch any part of the Scottish water supply.

    As an aside – growing up in the 70s in East Anglia I remember when Anglian Water was the local friendly public-sector water and sewerage provider before it was privatised to become the corporate monster it is today.

  26. mumsyhugs says:

    O\t. Sorry Rev – the indiegogo Orkney folks have put out a request for more help with funding. Thank you Rev XXX 🙂

  27. liz says:

    @Scott Minto – apologies for that O/T, I meant to put it on the previous thread.

    This article is very useful to get rid of the liars or misinformed on twitter.

    With the by-election going the LDs way in the Highlands, we have a serious battle on our hands to get the truth out.

  28. Donald says:

    O/T – Highland by election. SNP % vote actually went up. Seat lost principally as Greens gave their second votes to Lib Dems and Tories also gave their second vote to Lib Dem. Labour didn’t stand. highland.gov.uk/site/index.php

  29. Stephen Billcliff says:

    On my previous post I meant to say environmental concerns about Anglian Water should NOT be relevant here.

    I’ve also been looking at the Business Stream website – it seems that they do take part in the English water market. However, it seems that the English market is currently less open to competition than the Scottish one is is. In England only water users who use more than 5 Mega Litres of water can change water supplier – in Scotland its all non-domestic users. Additionally in Scotland those organisations can change their waste water “supplier?” but not in England. So it looks like the Scot Lab/Lib Dems went further than they had to at the time.

    The English market though changes in 2017 when it comes into line with what is already happening in Scotland – although their “local” providers will obviously still be privatised.

    http://www.business-stream.co.uk/about-us/market/who-can-switch-suppliers

    Thanks Scott for a great article.

  30. Donald says:

    Apols (don’t kill me Rev). That link should have been twitter.com/HighlandCouncil?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

  31. Silver19 says:

    What really angered me was that gobshite Slabour’s Lewis Macdonald doing the SNPbad on TV this week about this when he was one of main parties involved in this legislation for Water Services etc. (Scotland) Act 2005.

  32. Greannach says:

    It is worrying to imagine the shambles people like Neil Findlay and Kezia Dugdale would make of government given their joyful unawareness of EU regulations and the difference between devolved and reserved powers. With advisers like McDougall and McTernan to guide them, they don’t look like they’ve ever be in a position to test the rules and regulations.

  33. yesindyref2 says:

    “and the procurement processes must be fair and not exclude potential suppliers, intentionally or otherwise

    and

    “public bodies have a duty not to include contract requirements and terms that are disproportionate to the size or value of the contract.”

    These two, while fair enough, are the killers I think. It makes it very hard for a public body to angle the clauses in its Request For Tender to favour its preferred supplier.

    While that seems fair enough in principle, it means the clauses actually at times could be unfair to the public body, so as to avoid the possibility of lengthy and expensive court action. Hence they might have to put tender price first, at the expense of service and convenience, when they rank the tenders on, presumaby, some kind of – totally transparent – points system.

    Just my “I Am Not A Lawyer” take on it.

  34. Taranaich says:

    Thank all that is good for Scott Minto, you’re an absolute hero!

  35. heedtracker says:

    Usual SNP bad smear via rancid Graun but right at end is funny creepy, not haha

    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/06/scottish-ministers-award-anglian-water-contract-private

    “In fairness, the Scottish government had few options because the system of retail water competition is the ultimate in market madness. Some £350m will be paid to Anglian Water in Huntingdon, only for most of that money to be repaid to Scottish Water in wholesale charges. The cost of this crazy system is picked up by the taxpayer.”

    This crazy system, cooked up by SLab, the unmentionables.

  36. HandandShrimp says:

    Perhaps Neil Findlay would like to explain why Labour built the Scottish Fisheries Protection vessel MV Hirta in Poland rather than Fergusons back in 2007. Why didn’t he stand up for Scottish workers?

  37. heedtracker says:

    And again, exact same but BBC Scotland style -Usual SNP bad smear via BBC fraudsters but right at end is funny creepy, not haha

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34457178

    “In fairness, the Scottish government had few options because the system of retail water competition is the ultimate in market madness. Some £350m will be paid to Anglian Water in Huntingdon, only for most of that money to be repaid to Scottish Water in wholesale charges. The cost of this crazy system is picked up by the taxpayer.”

    This crazy system, cooked up by SLab, the unmentionables.

    What the hell. They’re all copying each other’s SNP monstering anyway.

  38. yesindyref2 says:

    The irony is, by the way, that the EU public contract procurement basis actually encourages breaking up large contracts into smaller units, to make it easier to get competition from as many tenderers as possible, including small business.

    So, for instance, with TFEU 346, whereby countries are allowed to not put up defence contracts for tendering but keep it “in country” for security reasons, the MOD for instance must break that contract up into secure and non-secure parts, to allow EU-wide tendering where possible. There’s nothing secure about wellies for instance!

    I posted in the Herald that the SG should have considered allowing every school, every hospital, to put the contract out to tender individually, and try their best to make the terms more suited in a legitimate fashion, to Business Stream who are actually HQ’ed in Scotland. Regular weekly “progress” meetings with a couple of hundred different admins could do the job, for example.

    Patrick Harvie had an article in the National with the same theme – good for him.

    http://www.thenational.scot/comment/patrick-harvie-is-anglian-water-really-the-sort-of-firm-we-want-to-be-doing-business-with.8469

  39. Midgehunter says:

    Donald says:

    “O/T – Highland by election. SNP % vote actually went up. Seat lost principally as Greens gave their second votes to Lib Dems and Tories also gave their second vote to Lib Dem. Labour didn’t stand.”

    That greens vote for their own party is fair enough, they vote for their policies and beliefs.

    It does seem though that in the past year, the greens have been avoiding a closer contact with the Independence idea and the SNP. Their support is IMO fairly weak. Is Devo-Max their real intention?

    In the run up to the GE and the by-elections (see above), I can’t seem to lose that feeling that the SNP is alone when it comes to Indy.

  40. yesindyref2 says:

    @Scott Minto
    Good grief, didn’t notice the author until I read a comment.

    Nice to see you around, I did see an odd article elsewhere from you so I knew you hadn’t popped your clogs or lost interest after the Ref 🙂 (dadsarmy)

  41. Grendel says:

    Money is not the bottom line though, is it? Tenders are decided on a variety of factors. Would I be wrong in saying that things such as levels of customer service, environmental record, etc can also be considered, and that a company with a more expensive bid could win, if the Scottish Government could justify that decision?

  42. dunderheid says:

    The Scottish Governement could award the contract to whoever it wants. If they award it to a public body for political reasons then of course, as described in the article, they would be open to legal challenge. But if you’re the SNP wouldn’t that be great fight to have…English corporation takes wee Scotland to court to take control of our lovely water…even a losing legal battle would be a winner politically.

    So why don’t they?…because its a nice little earner and they want the money and at the end of the day the SNP are as hypocritical as Labour

  43. Iain More says:

    I find it interesting that the Brit Nat’s are wanting us to discriminate against English and House of Orange companies. Could the Brit Nat hypocrites explain this nationalism thing to me.

  44. liz says:

    @Midgehunter – Never will understand the greens.

    Need to get thatout to SNPers who might put them as 2nd vote

  45. heedtracker says:

    No FT, no actual journalism. These guys go for full on SNP bad with virtualy no balance in any shape or form, to be fair the FT dude comedian what Andrew Neil has a thing for on his Daily Politics explains a lot about just how over rated the FT is. Rich people clearly just want to read exact same shit British gutter press like the Telegraph fart out.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/183ea6f8-6c5c-11e5-8608-a0853fb4e1fe.html#axzz3o4eYE300

    High quality global journalism requires investment so FT asked future Lady jacky Bailie who lied liked a UKOK trooper, as per

    “The contract was decided under legislation passed under a previous Labour Scottish administration that required competitive bidding in some areas of water services as part of an industry structure intended to ensure that Scottish Water, which supplies almost all residential users, could remain in public ownership.

    But Labour accused the SNP of failing to find a way to prevent the “effective privatisation” of water management for public buildings.

    “There were options in the tendering process to break this contract down to deliver a better deal for the taxpayer and keep water management in public hands,” said Jackie Baillie, Scottish Labour public services spokesperson.”

    High quality journalism forgot to ask Baillie what her options were but Blair and Jackie up a tree, the tree collapsed.

  46. Tony Little says:

    @Grendel

    It will depend on what the exact tender criteria is. I have not been involved in tendering in Scotland, but I have elsewhere. I expect they use similar ‘rules’ and guidelines about how a tender should be assessed. You are right to say that customer service etc. could be a factor – but in a hundreds page offer, how can that be assessed fairly?

    It seemed to me that the Scottish Govt bent over backwards to try to get Business Stream to improve their offer to the point they could accept it. But for whatever reasons, it seems BS could not do so.

    In the end, although price is not the only factor, it is probably the final arbiter. Typically the bid will be in two parts, with the financial offer calculated on those offers that pass the operational stage.

    Also consider that the SG budget is going to be hit hard in the next few years. All savings will be needed to avoid having to even consider raising taxes to off-set the next round of cuts (which of course is what WM hope and pray that the SG will have to do!).

    There is no easy decision for the SG. In the circumstances they appear to have done their level best by the Scottish people, and that’s all I can ask or expect.

  47. Hobbit says:

    The EU rules also explain why the Hebridean ferries had to be contracted out at all – despite the best efforts of the government of the time (not sure who) to avoid this being done; even if Calmac was the sole bidder left standing.

  48. steveasaneilean says:

    Thanks for this Scott.

    Over on Bella Stephen Paton disagrees with you. Who is right?

    http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2015/10/09/water-torture/

    What is your response to his vlog?

  49. yesindyref2 says:

    @Grendel
    Yes, service etc can be considered. I read somewhere, that the water contract was assessed on that too. I think (could be talking a load of rubbish), that the assessment was in two parts, service and quality in one, and price in another, and that overall Anglian won. Their promise to reduce waste with smart leak alerting meters was probably a large part of them winning, not just the price.

  50. yesindyref2 says:

    @steveasaneilean
    Ah, Bella! It used to be an Indy supporting resource.

  51. Alan Gerrish says:

    This also explains why K Dugdale would rather keep using up her time during FM’s questions than face the humiliation of hearing how culpable and incompetent SLAB has been during their time in charge at Holyrood.

    Talking of setting up time bombs, I don’t think Dugdale realises just what she is setting up for herself in the explosives department with her lies and slander involving MT. Don’t think the explosion is too far away now, Kez, and there is going to be a lot of collateral damage too.

  52. Simon says:

    ClanDonald says:
    9 October, 2015 at 12:29 pm

    “A tip for the small indy parties: if you want to win the second vote from SNP voters you won’t succeed by slagging off their party, all you’re achieving is making them resent you.”

    Absolutely agree and after this cheap little piece of electioneering by Cat Boyd in The National the other day it’s SNP/SNP for me.

  53. Grant says:

    So Labour demand financial probity of other party’s MPs, yet infer that contracts for services should be awarded on a corrupt and illegal basis to a favoured bidder from the member state where the services are to be provided?

    Have I got this right?

  54. Dr Jim says:

    Politics is odd isn’t it

    We have an election, we vote for the people we either trust or like for the job of looking after our interests and our country, then , the people we DON’T like and REJECT for that job get to oppose the people we voted for, and then get to ask questions of them under the pretense of scrutiny (on our behalf)

    But they don’t do that though do they, because what you then get is every other party we DIDN’T want joining up with each other in a sour grapes assault (on our behalf) on the ones we DID want

    And I find it strange that the scrutiny that’s supposed to happen (on our behalf) doesn’t happen
    The current case in point of an MP who’s accused of nothing with no evidence of wrong doing, and while there is a (non investigation) of nothing going on, the leaders of the parties we DON’T like or trust and are proven liars get to waste Parliamentary time (on our behalf) with questions about nothing

    Then folk like you and me have to put up with stuff we tried to get rid of by voting for the ones we want to keep
    only to be told by the ones we DON’T want

    You’re all stupid, and you shouldn’t have done it
    Well I just find all that a tad insulting

    Maybe it’s me but I just want to punch them

  55. Sunniva says:

    OK Stu, so why can’t the SNP pass a law overturning and reversing the laws passed in 2005 by the Lab-LD administration on water privatisation for non-domestic customers? And return Scottish Water to being a wholly owned public business?

    Isn’t that what the SNP should do? The new contract to Anglian is for 3-4 years but after that expires….

  56. Capella says:

    Excellent article Scott. I would guess that most people believe that Scottish Water is still a publicly owned utility. So screaming headlines like the current fuss over the Anglia contract and Abellio trains gain traction where people don’t realise the history of these changes. WoS is the only place where these issues are properly documented.

    The scandal, once more, is the bought and paid for Corporate Media. They fail to provide the analysis people in a democracy need. Maybe WoS should circulate its own press releases as per Churnalism demonstrated.

    Would it not be possible to allow these contracts to expire in the future without the cost of compensation? That could have been done with the railways except that Darling, Transport Minister, set up an “inquiry” when the contracts expired so that renationalising couldn’t be done in time.

  57. heedtracker says:

    Sunniva says

    What about EU law, like it says up there?

  58. jimnarlene says:

    BOOM! I think the time bomb will blow up, but in SLabours face.

  59. Les Wilson says:

    If the SNP can change it they should change it, as soon as practically possible.They are setting themselves up for critism, BT will be giving a big Yahooo!

    They must have known that, so it is a difficult to understand.

    While I trust them, vote for them and will continue to do so, they do, like anyone make the odd mistake.

  60. ArtyHetty says:

    I am actually going to print this out and keep it in my bag in case my labour light yes friends, get on their SNP baaaad, high horse.

    O/T

    Just went to look up a recipe online, for filo pie with a glut if filo at the ready. Well what do you know, the page that shows up is full of bbc, and ‘greatbritish’, and jamie oliver recipes! It is always the case these days, most of the stuff that comes up when doing a search is britainfirst then if you are lucky, maybe something from abroad!

    I don’t know, anyone would think britannia still ruled, even with the ‘world, wide, web’ which seems to be more and more britnat by the day.

  61. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

    @steveasaneilean

    He’s wrong on the ‘Privatisation’ bit. That happened the second the 2005 Act was signed and went live when the original contract started in 2008.

    That it happened to be a company 100% owned by a public body that was providing it didn’t make it a public utility.

    The contract was private. The provider was a for-profit company.

    i.e. the AbuDhabi Government owns TAQA. That doesn’t make them a bit of the Abu Dhabi public sector.

    He’s part right though. The Scottish Government could have voted to remove water from competitive tender.

    A minority SNP administration before 2011 wouldn’t have won that vote.

    A majority administration would have, but the Non-domestic market already privatised so you have renationalisation costs.

    Stephen doesn’t touch on that.

    Just cause something is possible doesn’t make it practical.

    It may be possible in future.

    But my point remains. The ‘privatisation’ of non-domestic water in Scotland was under the Labour administration, not the SNP last week.

  62. K1 says:

    Thanks Scott, clears up a lot of the disinformation and selective carping from Labour…there are simply no ploys they will not attempt to smear the SG with. And no area of ‘devolved’ policy that they won’t use to achieve their sole aim, to undermine their ‘sworn enemy’. It’s not ‘politics’ it’s ‘personal’.

    O/T I will never click on another Herald article again or on its main site to browse the front page. I add my up and down votes to various btl comments. Now they have only ‘upvotes’ and if you want to ‘click’ them it redirects to a ‘register’ page. They are a shower of conniving Bastards. I’m done.

  63. manandboy says:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34477973

    Just the sight of Glenn Campbell of the BBC is enough to remind Nicola who public enemy no.1 in a Yes Scotland is.

  64. Sunniva says:

    Thanks for that info Scott.

    But I really don’t see why the SNP can’t vote to bring the supply of water to public sector bodies like schools, hospitals, councils, back into public ownership after the new (current) contract is up in 3-4 years time.

    I don’t see how or why there would ne re-nationalisation costs to pay off a private company like Anglian. Their contract would be up.

  65. Macart says:

    And still its somebody else at fault. How many other Labour bear traps are out there waiting for the SG and the Scottish electorate?

    Findlay and McDougall still playing politics with people’s lives and futures. Tribal, small minded, childish, disingenuous bullshit. The sooner we clear this nonsense out of our politics, the better.

    Labour should take a hint, we’re not playing anymore.

  66. Al-Stuart says:

    O/T But this is obscene.

    To save his own skin, Alistair Carmichael has caused well over £106,000 to be SQUANDERED on legal fees when he should have done the decent thing and resigned after admitting he lied to his electorate.

    The People-V-Carmichael campaign are in need of a “top-up”.

    Perhaps Stuart might devote a thread to this topic?

    In the meantime, if anyone might like to join with another fiver, tenner or more, the weblink is…

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-people-versus-carmichael#/

    My blood is boiling at the thought of Fat Al scoffing taxpayer subsidised food in the Palace of Westminster whilst his greed at clinging to high-paid-office means at least £106,000 has been denied foodbanks, and with all due respect to the legal profession, this money is now destined to pay legal fees.

    How did that old phase about the poor and hungry?

    “LET THEM EAT CAKE”

    What happened after those infamous words were uttered???

  67. Jimbo says:

    “These directives are given effect in Scots law by two sets of regulations, both put in place by the last Labour-led Scottish Government”

    …aye, and Patrick Harvie (even though he’s complaining about it now) voted for it.

  68. John J. says:

    If the Scottish Government had selected Business Stream there would have been howls of outrage from the usual suspects about them wasting public money.

  69. Kenny Campbell says:

    What I find amazing is that staunch UK nationalists complaining about Scotland pooling and sharing resources/projects with the rest of the UK. Why the big deal over an English contract is you are a UK supporter.

    Its almost like they don’t like it, yet this is what they campaigned for.

  70. manandboy says:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34477973

    That’s twice recently that Nicola has been ambushed by the BBC and asked about MT. Surely Nicola’s advisors, if they were up to the job, would be able to prevent such BBC traps from being sprung.

    The SNP support team for Nicola remind me of the Scotland squad – all promise but little delivery.

  71. Jamie Arriere says:

    In a strange way, the fact that the contract went to Anglian Water suggests to me that the process was transparent and uncorrupted – though obviously the SG tried to give Scottish Water a chance to come back with a better deal by delaying and risking legal action against them.

    Counter-intuitively I am reassured by that.

    Oh, and before anyone thinks Scottish Water’s pollution record is unblemished…

    https://archive.is/TecL2

  72. steveasaneilean says:

    Thanks for clarifications Scott. makes more sense to me now (I’m a bit slow on the uptake when it comes to corporate matters).

    maybe you should also put the comment on Bella under Stephen’s piece. Who knows he might even respond?

  73. Marco McGinty says:

    @HandandShrimp
    “Perhaps Neil Findlay would like to explain why Labour built the Scottish Fisheries Protection vessel MV Hirta in Poland rather than Fergusons back in 2007. Why didn’t he stand up for Scottish workers?”

    Or why his beloved UK government awarded a contract to a South Korean shipbuilder to construct the latest vessels for the Royal Fleet Auxiliary.

  74. McDuff says:

    Another excellent article Rev.
    On another subject,The Independent`s English edition ran a story yesterday with the headline “Wind power now the cheapest form of energy“, and the story details why.
    Now for some reason it wasn`t on their website and I don`t think it was covered by any of the other papers or media which seems a tad odd unless its because the Scottish government have been strong advocates of this kind of renewable energy and this story has proven them right. I hope the SNP have read the article and can shove it down the throats of Dugdale, Davidson and Rennie.

  75. vagabondo says:

    There is a hole in the article’s explanation.

    The 2005 Holyrood legislation was a “best effort” at complying complying with the Competition Act 1998 of the UK Parliament. This enforces water “privatisation” throughout the UK, and no Scottish Government can change UK legislation. Al the Scots and EU law is secondary to the 1998 Act.

  76. Robert Peffers says:

    @bookie from hell says: 9 October, 2015 at 12:39 pm

    “Liberal Democrat GAIN Aird & Loch Ness (Highland) from SNP.”

    Aye! Bookie from hell, but what your report doesn’t tell us is this : –

    Yesterday’s by-election in Aird and Loch Ness had the SNP & LibDems finish almost eeksie peeksie with just 29 votes separating the two on first preferences.

    However, unlike the recent Ayr by-election when the SNP were a wee bit behind at first preferences and still won, this time the LibDems took the result on the transfers because there were more unionist who voted LibDem on their preference transfer votes.

    If ever there was a lesson for independence supporters this is it – we must always vote SNP/SNP.

    Here are the figures: –

    Aird and Loch Ness by-election result (first preferences) :

    Liberal Democrats 33.5% (+21.2)

    SNP 32.5% (+4.6)

    Conservatives 15.2% (+8.3)

    Independent – Fraser 9.5% (n/a)

    Greens 9.3% (n/a)

    The lesson is plain do not split your votes for SNP until at least after we take out independence.

  77. Robert Peffers says:

    @liz says: 9 October, 2015 at 12:42 pm:

    “So called journalist Glenn Campbell is trolling MT on twitter, despicable man.

    He needs to be brought down a peg or two.”

    To the tune, “There is a house in New Orleans”.

    There is a place in auld Scotland.
    It is the BBC,
    It’s been the ruin of many a man,
    I know about 23.

  78. Juteman says:

    Bella have been turning into a ‘strange’ website for the last few months.
    I could have been less generous with my praise, and said someone behind them is deliberately trying to split the Indy/SNP vote.

  79. manandboy says:

    SCOTTISH WATER IN SCOTLAND

    The importance and value to Scotland of fresh, clean, soft natural water must be incalculable. Scotland’s global image and reputation is inextricably linked to it’s water. So many of Scotland’s unique exporting industries depend on it.

    And yet, because of the insatiable predations of the oil & gas industry, everything else in Scotland is to be put at risk.

    The solution is not a moratorium – a delaying tactic – but rather a death sentence upon fracking and coal gasification. Can the SNP find the guts, the balls and the knees, to stand against Ineos, or will the culture of bribery between big business and politicians prevail yet again – to the utter ruination of Scotland.

    A 2-2 draw against Poland is a one day disaster which will do Scotland no harm.

    But what value the victory of Independence in a country whose land and water are toxic.

    In 40 years of production, not one penny of revenue from N Sea oil & gas found it’s way to Scotland, and it will be the exact same with fracking and gasification. Scotland has mind-boggling reserves of coal under land and sea. Setting fire to it in order to capture the gas released in burning, will produce an ecological disaster as yet unseen. Just ask any mining community which has endured a burning bing.

    But then again, perhaps we are on the eve of destruction after all.

  80. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Robert, the green vote split heavily between Libdums and Tories with only about 15% going to the SNP candidate.

    SNP 1 and 2, you know it makes sense…

  81. yesindyref2 says:

    @Tony Little
    Business Stream has contracts in England already, Bernard Matthews in Suffolk for one. As long as any water company is accepted and registered with the Scottish Government for Scotland, like Thames Water, or the UK Gov as in Business Stream, they can tender or get business from any company there.

    So for instance my small business could switch to Thames or Anglian, we stick with Business Stream like most do. There is a process the companies have to go through to register.

  82. Marco McGinty says:

    @heedtracker
    “Bliar MacDougal really is one extraordinary shyster.”

    I didn’t hear Blair (or anyone else from the branch office) making any complaints when “Scottish Labour” were getting much of their printing needs from companies in England. Unlike the situation facing the Scottish Government in this instance, there was no such enforcement that “Scottish Labour” had to adhere to. So, what’s their excuse?

    Then again, you wouldn’t expect anything else from the secret lovechild of Ann Widdecombe and Alistair Carmichael!

  83. Robert Peffers says:

    @One_Scot says: 9 October, 2015 at 12:53 pm:

    “To be fair to Blair his IQ level is probably not the highest, so for him to ask for help is probably not surprising.”

    While it is fairly easy to train just about any living creature to react to certain commands or certain situations. Even although the living creature is unable to comprehend what it is doing or why it does it.

    It is, though, quite impossible to train or re-educate those humans of very low IQ, who have been pre-programmed at an earlier age, after they mature to adulthood.

    They unfortunately have been so well programmed, exactly like the dumb creatures, to merely react to an outside stimulus but unable to discern the wisdom or correctness of their pre-programmed responses.

  84. Paul says:

    Mr Findlay Perhaps you can remind us all who polluted the Firth of Forth under your watch? Incase you have forgotten it was Thames water and it was your lot who gave them the contract.

  85. yesindyref2 says:

    @Juteman
    I think it’s fairly clear that Bella, along with Cat Boyd and RISE, put getting their candidates into Holyrood as their highest priority. Which is fair enough in itself, I daresay the SNP is the same – that’s party politics. Like many, I’d love to see a rainbow Holyrood.

    However, it needs an overall SNP majority – not a pro-indy alliance such as a YES alliance would have been – to fully legitimise a call by the ScotGov after the elections, for Indy Ref 2. Anything less than an overall SNP majority gives Cameron & Co an excuse to deny it.

    In that respect Bella and Co are putting party politics above the cause of Indy. Fair enough to campign positively for themselves, but not negatively against the SNP.

  86. galamcennalath says:

    Alan Mackintosh says:

    the green vote split heavily between Libdums and Tories with only about 15% going to the SNP candidate.

    It is interesting that more and more evidence emerging that Green voters tend not to have the SNP as their second choice, but will have a Unionist party.

    That must show that independence is typically a lower priority to Green supporters.

    I, and I’m sure most SNP supporters, now would never consider giving Unionist parties anything at all, far less a second preference vote!

    Having spoken to some of our new MPs, I can assure you the SNP are working towards Independence as a priority! I have no knowledge of Green thinking, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they are less focused.

    If Indy matters to you, then it has to be SNP+SNP next May.

  87. Lenny Hartley says:

    yesindyref2

    And who is going to pay for the thousands of meetings to setup hundreds if not thousands of individual contracts? Do you think the Administrators have nothing else to do?

  88. Once again, just in from canvassing, and the repeated smears against the S.N.P ain’t having any effect. Whether people have just switched off from their repeated attempts at throwing mud I don’t know, but so far results are good. Lets hope it keeps up.

  89. yesindyref2 says:

    Warning – long posting.

    This article from 2012: http://news.stv.tv/politics/187625-john-swinney-scottish-water-will-remain-within-the-public-sector/

    Willie Rennie: ““The Scottish Liberal Democrats have consistently called on the SNP Government to reform Scottish Water into a public benefit corporation.

    “It is important John Swinney does not reject this option by confusing it with privatisation.

    “Reforming Scottish Water into a public benefit corporation could yield a one-off windfall to the Scottish Government of at least £1.5bn whilst keeping it in public ownership.

    “Earlier this year it was suggested that Mr Swinney supported such a change but only if the SNP win the independence referendum.”

    Independence would give the Scottish Government the ability to legislate on everything to do with companies, private or public.

    —————————-

    From wiki: The first reference to public-benefit corporations in United Kingdom law is in the Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Act 2003, which established NHS Foundation Trusts as public-benefit corporations. Schedule 1 of the Act sets out the requirements for a public-benefit corporation which include a membership made up of individuals living in a specific area, employees of the corporation and service users, and a board of governors some of whom are elected by the members based on “constituencies” such as staff, users or public. British authorities have used other terms with similar functions to public-benefit corporations such as statutory authority, QUANGO and crown corporation.

    Public-benefit corporations are distinguishable from public authorities in that the latter do not have a membership.

    Examples of other bodies which have a similar role to, whilst not being formally called, public-benefit corporations include the BBC, which is incorporated by royal charter. Many universities have charters going back centuries, and so are also chartered corporations.

    —————–

    I suspect the problem is that what Parliament can do, parliament can undo, so what could then happen at some stage is that the public benefit company could be floated, and shareholders could then vote to “privatise” the company, as happened with mutuals, friendlies, and the likes of TSB. I also can’t see where Rennie’s £1.5 billion could come from, without shareholders actually paying money and the ScotGov getting the proceeds. So as far as I can see, what Rennie wanted to do back n 2012 was open the door to complete privatisation of Scottish Water.

    In other words, if he protests now about the latest Anglian Water thing, he protesteth too much, and is a hypocrite.

  90. yesindyref2 says:

    I forgot to make the point that while Scottish Water is under control of the devolved Scottish Government at Holyrood, company law is under the control of the UK Government at Westminster. Until Independence that is, or if such laws became devolved which might not even happpen with FFA.

  91. yesindyref2 says:

    @Lenny Hartley
    My point is that splitting up the contract is a possible way past the tendering having resulted in awarding the whole contract to Anglian Water.

    I was not making the case that that is what should have happened, or even attempting to work out how the mechanics of doing so would be cost efficient. Except that for instance each and every school and hospital would be completely entitled to appoint an agency to work on their behalf, and that agency itself would not then be covered under the EU regulations.

  92. Robert Peffers says:

    @K1 says: 9 October, 2015 at 2:41 pm:

    “Thanks Scott, clears up a lot of the disinformation and selective carping from Labour…

    Cummon! guys! I thought everyone knew this scam as it’s been going for a very long time.

    The Bank of England was a Royal Chartered private company from its birth in 1694. It was called the Bank of England because the English Government banked with it and not because they owed it. In 1946 the UK government nationalised it so people owned it until our, (Ahem!)”Good Friend”, Gordon Brown made it again a independent company – but still wholly owned by the taxpayer.

    The we have the BBC – always funded by the taxpayer but none the less still a private corporation.

    Then we have all those QUANGO’s, (Quasi-Autonomous Non-Governmental Organisation). The quasi bit means they are government funded. Then we have those Glasgow Council, “Arms Length”, organisations funded by the Glasgow Council electorate. And we’re still subsidising the entire rail network.

  93. manandboy says:

    With the timing of Indy2 difficult to predict, the ideal of Independence has given way – in part – to the practicalities of a possible career at Holyrood as an MSP.

    With Indy2 delayed till possibly 2021, the Left in particular, have re-jigged their sails and opted for a change in tack. But, as has already been noted, this carries risks, as a coalition for Independence will be, politically, a weaker hand than a rock solid SNP overall majority at Holyrood.

    A YES/YES in May is a no brain-er.

    But we’ve had no brain-ers before.

  94. Martin says:

    Yeah, govts hands pretty much tied. Award it to Business stream and the EU would have undoubtedly been informed by a disgruntled someone and hammered us. The SNPs main crime in all these decisions seems to be actual transparency….

  95. Democracy Reborn says:

    @Scott Minto

    Scott,

    Brief question : if the SG had *not* awarded the contract to Anglian, would it have been subject to a possible judicial review challenge?

  96. Robert Peffers says:

    @manandboy says: 9 October, 2015 at 3:05 pm:

    “http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34477973

    That’s twice recently that Nicola has been ambushed by the BBC and asked about MT. Surely Nicola’s advisors, if they were up to the job, would be able to prevent such BBC traps from being sprung.

    The SNP support team for Nicola remind me of the Scotland squad – all promise but little delivery.”

    I’ve been a Scottish Nationalist for most of my, almost 80, years on Earth. I think of myself as around average intelligence and that means I think I’m about the same as the average Scot. But sometimes I despair at others I perceive to also be average, or even above average, Scots.

    Whatever it is that Nicola & the SNP are doing they are mostly doing it right For they still govern well after a term in office when voters normally demand party change.

    Now it is thus logical to deduce that the Scottish voters mostly must not believe the claims of the Unionist Bitter Together boorach as they are losing votes in a contrapuntally indifferent manner.

    As the SNP vote rises the Unionist vote declines yet the SNP blithely continue as they always have and the Unionists continue to attempt to tell lies and carry out witch hunts on an industrial scale.

    Plainly the SNP policy is working in direct opposition to that of the Unionists – but the SNP are not doing anything different.

    Conclusion : – the Unionists dire actions must be the factor making the difference.

  97. yesindyref2 says:

    @Democracy Reborn
    Every unsuccessful bidder, including Anglian – and presumably Business Stream – has the right to challenge the awarding of any public contract in court. No idea about judicial reviews I’m afraid.

  98. James McIntyre says:

    I like Wings but this legal report shows this article to be incorrect. The government could have awarded the contract to Business Stream had it chose to.

    http://www.rise.scot/media/waterprivatisation

    Would Wings Over Scotland like to respond to this?

  99. yesindyref2 says:

    OT
    On the subject of “click bait” for newspapers, where the paper gets revenue for impressions, i.e. just for displaying an advert, it’s a double-edged sword for the website itself.

    Using analytics, either homegrown ones or as a lot do, from google, advertisers can see the impression ratio to click-thru rate, whereby people see the ad and actually clikc on it to see what the product or service is.

    I would say that if the click-thru ratio to impression value was low, that website would become not a worthwhile site to pay for impressions on. Advertisers would prefer sites that give a high click-thru rate.

    So for an example a website that talked about holdiays and travel would get high click-thrus for travel agencies, accomodation bookings and so on. But one about politics “SNP bad” might not.

    Like link farms and spamming links and keywords in terms of search engine success, click-bait is, ultimately, self-defeating. So if, for instance, someone decided to click on a webapge, let it load, then flush the browser and do the same again and again and again, short-term the site owners would get more revenue, long term they’d probably lose the advertiser for good.

    Just a thought …

  100. Roll_On_2015 says:

    09.10.2015 05.52 pm

    Jimbo @ 3:01 pm

    …aye, and Patrick Harvie (even though he’s complaining about it now) voted for it.

    Aye Jimbo here is the List of backers.

    Note: Click the image to enlarge and reveal.
    .

  101. thomaspotter2014 says:

    Looks like all are sundrie are jumping on the SNP attack wagon.

    SNP MUST BE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT.

    This water contract nonsense is as baseless as the MT shite.

    But serves a purpose for denigrating media attacks.

    We need to remember who and where from the dirt is being launched.

    The panic and terror from BTUKOK and their flunkies is a joy to behold-the more they crank it up-the more desperate they’re becoming.

    Pass the popcorn.

  102. yesindyref2 says:

    OT
    Good grief, the gift that keeps on giving – thich as two short planks Unionist politicans.

    Apparently the (government independent) Law Society of Scotland flagged up the MT solicitor thing in 2011 to SOCA, now the National Crime Agency. And Murdo Fraser and Jackie Baillie are having a go at the Scottish Government about it.

    Hello Murdo and Jackie, the National Crime Agency is a UK Government agency based near Pimlico in London. A benefit of the Union, Better Together, the best of both worlds, take it up with your Tory pals in Westminster. Over to you two, thickos.

  103. manandboy says:

    Thank you Robert at 5.30pm. We are in agreement – ‘Nicola & the SNP are….. mostly doing it right’.
    But there is the occasional time when they don’t. Like when Nicola is unprotected and taken by surprise by a BBC reporter who is out to set the FM up, to be shown on the BBC News for the rest of the day.

    And please, I will not have you despair on my account. I will never vote No, or other than SNP, and I would never knowingly do the SNP or the cause of Independence harm. I am though, like them, human, and I will make mistakes, which will be filtered out by Wings when I make them on here. Save any despair for the Unionists – especially the Scottish variety.

  104. Iain More says:

    I don’t think I will be voting Green next year on the lists and this is another reason why

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/652451180677873664

    Stage 1: LD 1029, SNP 1000, Con 467, Ind 293, Grn 287

    Stage 2: LD 1099, SNP 1097, Con 480, Ind 330

    Stage 3: LD 1208, SNP 1144, Con 544

    Stage 4: LD 1511, SNP 1167

    So the transfers were as follows:

    Green (out of 287): LD 70, SNP 97, Con 13, Ind 37

    Independent (out of 330): LD 109, SNP 47, Con 64,

    Con (out of 544): LD 303, SNP 23

  105. Rab Collinson says:

    The real question to be answered is. How can Anglian buy the water from Scottish water and sell it to the Scottish government cheaper than Scottish waters wholly owned subsidiary

  106. Lenny Hartley says:

    Yesindyref2
    I’m on the same page as you , however Public Services are under extreme pressure due to
    Westminster cutbacks, as you know there is a cost to everything in business, I’m sure the S.G. Looked at all the options and decided the Course of action taken was the correct one.
    Most of the money will filter back to Scottish Water anyway for supplying the water.

    O/T see Alec Mcleish moaning that their must be something in the Scottish Psyche to stop us reaching the final stages of Football Tournaments, yes you nawbag, it’s because your pals brainwash us from birth that we are too wee, too poor and too stupid.

  107. Lenny Hartley says:

    Rab Colinson, does this mean that we will get our kettles furred up with limestone if Anglian supply the water?
    🙂

  108. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Re Highland election, Scot goes Pop has a post on it and the results/transfers are posted in one of the comments below the line. Was close till fourth round when tories votes transferred to libs and pushed them over the line. Greens spilt about 45% to SNP. The other 55% went 70/37/13 Lib/Ind/Con. So libs picked up from greens and then tories.

    http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/snp-vote-increases-by-46-in-aird-and.html

  109. Valerie says:

    Cost has to be the biggest part of the tender assessment process, and as Anglian will have demonstrated they have the operations to deliver savings, that is almost impossible, and contrary to EU regs to overturn.

    If the contract had been split into many small ones to get under the price bar, it adds to the cost of administration, as democracy reborn mentions, not to mention that the SG would be taken to court for anti competitive practices.

  110. yesindyref2 says:

    @Valerie
    If the one big contract was split into smaller contracts under local control not under the SG control, then there’s absolutely no mechanism at all that the SG could be taken to court for.

  111. Thepnr says:

    @Iain More

    Your figures are correct, The SNP got more second prefernce votes from the Greens than any other party.

    Note also that 70 did not express any 2nd preference so no one got these.

    Green vote split % excluding no 2nd preference:

    45% SNP
    32% Lib
    17% Ind
    6% Tory

    Including no 2nd preference.

    34% SNP
    24% No 2nd Pref
    24% Lib
    13% Ind
    5% Tory

    In total 58% of Greens gave their support to SNP or to no one.

  112. yesindyref2 says:

    @Thepnr
    Exactly. The by-election is not something, in my opinion, to wage war on the Greens over.

  113. I have been discussing this bill on facebook with a person who said a number of SNP MSPs voted for the bill.

    I have tried to find the voting record for the bill, to no avail.

    If anyone can advise how on the SG website I can get that information I would appreciate it.

  114. yesindyref2 says:

    @James Caithness
    A long way would be doing a lot of searches with keywords like scotland water or whatever on

    http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/

  115. msean says:

    Does this mean that the Labour/Libdem government (sorry, executive) actually gave the (presumedly)London based competition commission an ultimate decision making power in Scotland that they didn’t have previously?

    I don’t know how that stuff works,but it looks like that. Couldn’t they have set up some kind of independent commission in Scotland to deal with issues that might arise around cases like this or was it better that their London masters deal with it?

  116. Iain More says:

    Thepnr says

    Without cutting and pasting the rest of your post, the majority of the Greens haven’t voted for the SNP as their preferred 2nd preference at all. I am stating that the majority of the Greens have voted for a Brit Nat Party or a Brit Nat candidate in preference to the SNP.

    If the Greens are voting in a majority for pro Nuclear or anti Environmental Brit Nat’s then they can go and have sex and travel. Because this is not the first council by election where the Green so called voters have backed a Brit Nat candidate in preference to a Scot Nat. Check the second preference voting in the majority o the council elections where Green candidates have stood.

    If the Greens want Scot Nat’s to vote for them on the lists then surely then there has to be some quid pro quo when it comes to other elections. Oh and bashing Scots Nat’s particularly when the criticisms are spurious and more often than not straight out of what might as well be Brit Nat Press releases.

    The Greens have made up my mind for me as to how I will vote in 2016 Holyrood elections especially those Highland Greens who appear totally comfortable voting for anti Scottish Parties in such numbers.

  117. Valerie says:

    @yesindyref 2

    Keith Brown pretty clear the contract was constructed to COMPLY

    SNP ministers had delayed for months a final decision on the four-year contract to manage water billing for schools, hospitals and other public buildings after Anglian Water became the leading contender ahead of publicly owned Scottish Water.
    e secretary, said the Anglian Water bid offered immediate savings of £5m a year over the next-best bid and was “the best deal for Scotland under the rules that bind us”.

    Do you think it’s best value to break a multi million pound contract into many parts?

  118. Daisy Walker says:

    O/T

    Have just donated to the Orkney Voles v Carmichael, just love their new stain glass window design – ‘the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me rona’ Superb.

    Get the feeling there’s been a change of staff at operation Project Fear II, a definite revamping of the same auld same auld.

    Not going to be ground down, not now, not ever. Implacable, one bit of decency at a time.

    And do you know what, Billboards might be a bit out of reach, but I have a car, with windows. I’m going to print off the article from the Pigfest re withdrawing Winter Fuel Payments. It will be in large print so pensioners can read it and it will be in the windows.
    Bitterly Cold Heartless Bastards Together.

    Keep on keeping on folks – your all brand new.

  119. Iain says:

    Just remember we are going to win and get independence come May 2016 the demographics are all against the imperialists they have to win all the time we have to win just once.

  120. HandandShrimp says:

    The real question to be answered is. How can Anglian buy the water from Scottish water and sell it to the Scottish government cheaper than Scottish waters wholly owned subsidiary

    I may be wrong but I suspect that part would be the same for both bids. I doubt that Scottish Water would be allowed to provide the water cheaper for Business Stream than other bidders. The variance must therefore be on the billing and maintenance. Of course Anglian may provide a cheap but crap service.

    I would be interested in seeing what element of the £350m goes to Scottish Water.

  121. yesindyref2 says:

    @Iain More
    It’s one interpretation, as is thepnr’s. Here’s another from your figures:

    Stage 1: LD 1029, SNP 1000, Con 467, Ind 293, Grn 287
    Stage 2: LD 1099, SNP 1097, Con 480, Ind 330

    There was no Green candidate in 2012, so the one standing has TAKEN 97 votes from SNP, but 70 from the LibDems, 13 from the Conservatives, and 37 from the “Independents”.

    In a FPTP, that’s a nett gain for SNP of 23 votes.

    With apologies to our cat, it’s however you skin the cat.

  122. john king says:

    Lenny says
    “O/T see Alec Mcleish moaning that their must be something in the Scottish Psyche to stop us reaching the final stages of Football Tournaments, yes you nawbag, it’s because your pals brainwash us from birth that we are too wee, too poor and too stupid.”

    Thats it,
    Lennys got it,
    we get Ally Mcloud to take back up the mangers job, he’ll PROMISE us we CAN win the world cup, bish bash bosh, INDEPENDENCE!

    Whats not to like I would LOVE to relive 1978 all over but this time we beat Peru and NOT draw with Iran. and kick the shit out of Holland 🙂
    Netherlands v Iran 3-0
    Jun 03 Cordoba Peru v Scotland 3-1
    Jun 07 Mendoza Netherlands v Peru 0-0
    Jun 07 Cordoba Iran v Scotland 1-1
    Jun 11 Cordoba Peru v Iran 4-1
    Jun 11 Mendoza Scotland v Netherlands 3-2

  123. Tony Little says:

    @H&S

    No precise figures but the quote from “someone” in the know was that ‘almost all’ of the £350m will come back to SW as charges. So, as you say, Anglia are simply more economical with their admin. (We she see how crap it really is quite soon!)

  124. Valerie says:

    There is a very comprehensive procurement strategy on the Scotgov website, they are bound by EU rules, and are obliged to procure to get best value.

    Even one of the Unions said the SG had no option. The Unions understand how procurement works.

    So many experts saying what they should have done, despite the excellent article above.

    Don’t believe everything you read on commonspace, as they post guff.
    SNP member indyref2 telling us yet again how the SG got this wrong.

  125. yesindyref2 says:

    @Valerie
    I haven’t said that, I was pointing out that it would be a legal way of possibly achieving the result for Bus Stream. It would have involved probably a Bill in Holoyrood taking 2 yeaers, preceded by a consultancy working out the costs, plus the usual public consultations and committees.

    I’m as aware as anyone of the need for cost savings, I’m not looking forward to Swinney’s next budget, and hope he can perform his usual magic with rabbits and hats.

  126. Valerie says:

    I’m pretty sure you don’t work in procurement with that strategy @ yesindyref2.

    As I said, look at SG site and see what is at stake, what is involved. Many big companies have the money to mount a legal challenge where services are broken down to favour a provider.

    You cannot favour Business Stream, and this has been EU Regs for many years.

  127. yesindyref2 says:

    @HandandShrimp
    The Scottish Water wholesale price would be the same regardless of end supplier.

    http://www.scottishwater.co.uk/business/our-services/wholesale-services/wholesale-services-to-licensed-providers

    @TonyLittle
    I think that was the Unison spokesperson.

  128. yesindyref2 says:

    @SNP member indyref2 telling us yet again how the SG got this wrong.

    Tut tut. Read my postings, not what you think they say, but what they actually say.

  129. yesindyref2 says:

    @ Valerie: “I’m pretty sure you don’t work in procurement with that strategy @ yesindyref2.”

    Again, tut tut. Read my postings, and by the wat I run my own business, and do all the buying – including water from Business Stream. Not Anglian, not Thames Water, Business Stream, same as, up to now, about 96% of Scottish businesses.

    Get a grip.

  130. Rock says:

    Same thing as with Labour’s PFI schools and hospitals.

    The majority SNP government could not do anything about them because of the contracts already signed by Labour.

    The SNP government is blamed for everything even if it is not its fault.

    Pravda GB forced the Transport minister to resign even though its own weather service had failed to predict the heavy snow that fell the next day.

    The sustained attack on SNP might have made it lose the by election.

  131. W NEILSON says:

    Did the SNP not vote in favour of the Water Services (Scotland) Act?

    And in making their choice from among the tenderers was it really impossible (while still complying with EU procurement requirements) to choose Business Stream the company with a sound record which pays tax in the UK, retains its profits in Scotland, and is known to provide the best service? See today’s Herald: http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/13810942.Scottish_Water_lost___350m_government_contract_despite_offering_best_service/

  132. Rock says:

    I have been warning about the risk of giving the second vote to the Greens ever since they stood a candidate against the SNP enabling the Tory viceroy of Scotland to get re-elected.

    Patrick Harvie hates the SNP as much as the unionists.

    He and his Green MSPs would hold a minority SNP government to ransom.

    Beware of the Greens (and ex-Greens who have infiltrated the SNP).

  133. yesindyref2 says:

    @Me
    Correction to that. When I posted back in Nov 2012 in the Grun, I said this (from BS website about): “The biggest commercial property supplier (93,00 out of 130,000 properties) is a subsidiary of Scottish Water (Business Stream)” So it wasn’t 95% even then. Oops.

  134. Robert Peffers says:

    @manandboy says: 9 October, 2015 at 6:09 pm:

    “But there is the occasional time when they don’t. Like when Nicola is unprotected and taken by surprise by a BBC reporter who is out to set the FM up, to be shown on the BBC News for the rest of the day.

    Aye! manandboy, but what makes me despair is the bit you are missing. You see it as the BBC lying in wait to ambush and, “surprising”, Nicola but I see it as Nicola being the bait deliberately walking into the counter-trap.

    There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the Scottish electorate have mostly already cottoned on to the Unionist lackey’s Witch Hunt tactics. It is an irrefutable fact that the increase in the witch hunt attacks corresponds exactly with the rise and rise of SNP support.

    The more the numpties attack the greater the move of support towards independence. The more they attack the more voters move to the SNP. Do you imagine the team that has brought us this far have not analysed all this?

    There may come a time when there are no more, (shall we call them sympathy voters?), to gain but that’s what it looks like to this old Nationalist. I’d never seen it in Scottish politics until after we lost the referendum at the last minute. There was an immediate and large tsunami of new members and as the Unionist abuse increases so the increasing support continues.

    I may be wrong, (it is not unknown), but the evidence is that not only is the witch hunt failing but it has been counter productive. It simply indicates what many professional political commentators have put in other ways such as, “The Scottish electorate are now the most aware in the World”. Aye! but what is it they are now aware of?

    We Wingers are only a small part of that hyper-aware electorate but look at the clear result of just being aware. Within minutes of any event there will be, “the famous, Alert Reader“, posting the flaw in the Unionist attack. These days there are more alert readers than ever before in Scotland but the great bonus is that more are becoming alert by the minute.

  135. Dan Huil says:

    A letter from today’s National:

    “There seems to be some misunderstanding on the part of Patrick Harvie (Is Anglian Water really the sort of firm we want to be doing business with? The National, October 7) and your editorial writer about the water industry in Scotland.

    Nowadays, Scottish business success stories are all too rare, and Scottish public sector business success stories are scarcer than hens’ teeth. But since its formation in 2002, shortly after devolution, Scottish Water has been a big success story. In 2002, the water industry was technically insolvent and average Scottish household water bills were higher than those from the average English water company. Today they are lower, and the company operates on a sound financial footing.

    From April 2008, while Scottish Water remained the sole wholesale supplier of water, large-scale users have been able to choose their retail supplier.This has resulted in big reductions in water bills for hospitals, schools and universities as well as for privately owned businesses. England and Wales are about to follow us. Instead of carping from the sidelines, commentators should be singing the praises of this Scottish success story.

    PS Those who suggest that a retail supplier should be excluded from the Scottish market because it is English should consider the consequences of Scottish Water’s retail subsidiary, Business Stream, being excluded from the forthcoming English retail market because it is Scottish.”

    David Simpson
    Dunbar

  136. Valerie says:

    @yesindyref
    If you run your own business, then tell me how it makes business sense to break up contracts for the same service being obtained by numerous schools, hospitals etc

    Your suggestion beggars belief that you think that is viable, and could apply to the SG

    As I said, Keith Brown clear and mentions being bound by rules, but guess you didn’t read what I posted

  137. Sinky says:

    I think the David Simpson was a respected economist

  138. K1 says:

    O/T I don’t know who, but think Nana, put a link up of a press conference that Putin was giving wherein John Simpson had asked him a question to which he answered ‘thoroughly’, putting Simpson in his place. Any chance that link could be re posted please? Thanks in advance.

  139. Sinky says:

    Rock
    I agree that Greens are split 50 / 50 on their support for Indy but can anyone explain Labour’s decision not to contest the Highland by election thus boosting the Lib Dem vote

  140. Valerie says:

    Speaking of Patrick Harvie

    I’m sick of hearing about his idea of getting 1M people to sign a register to demand another referendum.

    What is the point of this when we have no chance of winning it just now.

  141. yesindyref2 says:

    @Valerie
    For any’s sake actually read my postings, and tell me where, exactly, I said this SHOULD be done, rather than COULD be done.

    And keep the personal snide remarks – to yourself, they have no place on a forum. Any forum.

  142. Fran says:

    Im in construction and we deal with new applications to B/stream and S/water, the whole system is a mess. Maybe we will get a better service from Anglian. B/Stream sacked their top men because there were 700 outstanding applications that had been on the system for months and not delt with. The service from B/Stream was very poor and a lot of complaints had gone in from businesses to the Scottish Government.

  143. Tackety Beets says:

    Yet again the Unionists fail to grasp how much we know and understand what’s going on.

    Dan Huil / David Simpson @ 8.53 just illustrates how aware people are.

    Sorry OT but inspired by the Ref alert readers etc

    What has amazed me is the amount of YES stickers etc still in full view.

    I met a business colleague in the street recently and noticed he was limping , turns out he had been in a nasty accident and airlifted to hospital etc etc , with a rye smile he told me they had a new car and his good lady was pleased to plaster it with nice fresh YES stickers again.

    I had a wee uplift tonight , ended behind a Yesser car and noticed a new one on me , in amongst the miriad of the stickers , “Even more YES than ever” by feck … Made my sadness of recent sport results fade away .

    Fairley lifts yer hert !

    Added to this is the folk in my social circle with whom I have never discussed politics , but we found common ground last year and now they are happy to impart ” the latest ”

    The icing on the cake is when I meet a winger wearing a wings badge.

    Sadly I believe we still have some work to do for 2016 elections , there are still some folk who are not engaged , and some who are not nearly as engaged as those reading Wings.

  144. Valerie says:

    @indyref2

    How is it personal asking you to explain your suggestion? It’s a blatant criticism of SG, and I was assuming you had a rationale for breaking a service common to 32 councils into myriad pieces.

    As I have said repeatedly, everything has been very clearly followed in EU law, as well as followed in their publicised strategy for procurement, best value for the public purse.

    If you put forward the criticism, you should explain how your approach complies with regs and gets value for money.

    Or is it just a plain old attack? You are clearly stating the govt could have done it another way, and I’m saying that’s garbage.

  145. Paula Rose says:

    Bang goes the big umbrella Rock

    Beware of the Greens (and ex-Greens who have infiltrated the SNP).

  146. Dr Jim says:

    @ Robert Peffers 8.50

    Yup, been saying it for a while now, some folks get anxious and forget the SNP are pretty good at this stuff

    They don’t do nothing for no reason, they do nothing to provoke the next reason for doing something

    Deep eh

  147. CRAIGthePICT says:

    It’s great to expose these enemies of the truth with such great research and referencing. Findlay is a clown, spewing out that casual tweet to deceive us.

    On a slightly related theme, please read and share my latest blog.

    http://blog.independencelive.net/stockholm-syndrome-propaganda-and-the-awakening/

  148. yesindyref2 says:

    @Valerie: “How is it personal asking you to explain your suggestion?”

    “SNP member indyref2 telling us yet again how the SG got this wrong.”

    and

    “I’m pretty sure you don’t work in procurement with that strategy @ yesindyref2.”

    kind of give that away.

    —————-

    And once again for the hard of reading it was a “could” not a “should”. For all I know, in the time since my first posting on this thead and this one, the last posting, the appropriate ScotGov minister(s) could have picked up the phone, asked their appropriate legal and financial advisers (possibly civil service), asked the question, been told “get back you on that”, then been told “We did a report back in 2006, possible legal problems, showed a nett loss of £4 million a year, do you want us to update the report?”. “No thanks, that’s fine”.

    Do you understand now? It’s all about exploring possibilities, priorities, time, money. All businesses do it, to a greater or lesser extent. Even mine. And at times that involves debate.

  149. Alan Mackintosh says:

    K1, your wish is my command. Putin puttin’ the boot in!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KHCNk9BYy4&feature=youtu.be

  150. Valerie says:

    @indyref2

    Right, I’m not really following your fictitious chat between Ministers.

    But for the hard of learning –

    ITS ALL PRESCRIBED in law. It’s all on their website what they will do. They don’t need to get in huddles. It’s a well trodden path.

    Possibilities only exist in how to describe what is wanted, not in how to dodge the regulations to favour an in house provider.

    Paid officers who are experts in the law, and how to bundle services, get value, involve stakeholders,improve, monitor and implement the Scotgov strategy do this work.

    Whether you said should or could is immaterial, my point is no, it is not possible to do what you described.

    I don’t think I was personal in challenging you.

    Once again, on a pro Indy site, claiming you are SNP, you are sowing seeds of doubt, and I find that pretty snide. Particularly when you are wrong in what you say.

  151. Valerie says:

    @indyref2

    I’m bored now, but for anyone else.

    Look up at Scott Mintos excellent piece. The para in blue outlining EU 2020 strategy is what I’m talking about, and what Scotgov is legally obligated to abide by.

    There is no debates or chats – it’s all there.

  152. yesindyref2 says:

    @Valerie: “Once again, on a pro Indy site, claiming you are SNP, you are sowing seeds of doubt, and I find that pretty snide. Particularly when you are wrong in what you say.”

    There you go again, off on one, in a world of your own imagination.

    There should be a “cloo” in my second posting, where I mentioned TFEU, if you understand what that’s about.

    I can’t be bothered with this crap. Back to Stargate Atlantis, there’s more reality there.

  153. Paula Rose says:

    Put the handbags down.

    Step away from the handbags.

    Hug, kiss and be nice.

    Yes you know who I’m talking to xx

  154. Robert Peffers says:

    It’s all falling apart for the Establishment’s Witch Hunters. Now the Westminster Standards watchdog has informed that it cannot investigate property deals surrounding Michelle Thompson’s company’s as they have no powers to do so as they happened before she was a Westminster MP.

    One in the eye for complainant LibDem MP John Barrett. Now I ask you, how come a LibDem MP didn’t know that the Parliamentary Standards Commission was only legally allowed to investigate actual members of the Westminster Parliament?

    Talk about not being able to see the wood for the trees!

    Now I’m just a common 5/8 but if I was about to make a complaint about a fellow, “Honourable Friend”, I would protect myself by checking that wee a fact first.

    You really do have to laugh at these numpties. They must refer to each other as, “My honourable Friend”, or be reprimanded by the speaker but they are all sneaking around the Commons with a sgian-achlais, (Gaelic) – sgian-ochle, (Lallans).

    That translates for English only speakers as an under oxter, or armpit, concealed knife.

    These are the same numpties who object to a polite round of applause for a good point or speech but bray like mules and other jeering noises across the chamber.

  155. Grouse Beater says:

    Peffers: Now the Westminster Standards watchdog has informed it cannot investigate property deals surrounding Michelle Thompson’s company’s as they have no powers to do so as they happened before she was a Westminster MP.

    It was always so, but GCHQ doesn’t give a damn. A smear talked about long enough, sticks. If only the misbegotten 55% understood we face men prepared to slash and burn to keep Scotland docile.

  156. Paula Rose says:

    Files nails and looks disapprovingly upon silly spats.

  157. dakk says:

    My own experience of privatisation of non domestic water is that my water charges have come down by 25% since I moved from Business Stream to Castle Water,so what’s not to like,unless you are into socialist dogma.

  158. A Strachan says:

    I was reading on another forum that this is not entirely true? A Cut and paste:

    2005 Water Act is irrelevant mate, you should infact be looking at the 2014 Water Act, SNP could and should have simply repealed the 2005 Act, it’s well within their power to do so, the blame lies fairly and squarely at their own door this time I’m afraid. There’s only so many times the blame game can be played. EU Directive made Water exempt from Privatisation Regs after 1.6 Million EU citizens signed a petition that it was against their human rights. Why do you think millions have taken to the streets in Ireland if it was infact the jurisdiction of the EU and there was no redress could be had ?

  159. davidb says:

    These public tendering – and wider competition issues – need to be understood in a bigger context.

    The EU is attempting to create a single market. So it tries to set up rules to open up all the markets in member states. Many people who contribute here are notionally in favour of Scottish membership of that EU. So we cannot really have our cake and eat it.

    Privatisations are a British solution to removing the state from ownership of businesses. In France they have arm’s length companies. In Eire I know of one company which was formerly state owned ( CRH) but which is now a global building materials company. If you are trying to have a level playing field then ownership matters.

    So our railways, our non-military shipbuilding, our water, our telephones, our electricity, postal services. etc. etc, etc are all changing because the of the EU. Our Scots government has its hands tied. It has to go along with rules.

    Now granted, some places seem to get away with things that others don’t, but essentially they don’t get away with rule bending for ever.

    The processes do work both ways. Ryanair, Easyjet and BA are wiping the floor with National flag carriers across the EU. Some have gone under, some are struggling. That second rate chemical pisswasser we substitute for beer is sold in Germany , home of Rheinheitsgebot now. There are some gigantic British ( alas fewer Scottish ) businesses in strong market positions across the whole EU. And they all play the same games to force markets to be free and fair across the whole union.

    So I suggest unless we are pursuing a ( perfectly valid ) socialist outlook, with protected markets, that we forget about whether an English ( or a Spanish or a French company ) provides water to our fire brigades, and just see things for what they are in a bigger picture. If it works ( big if ), at the end we will have one huge EU market with good jobs, good labour conditions, good health and welfare provision and efficient services.

    Its not consistent to complain about the EU and yet cling onto membership.

  160. caz-m says:

    Rev,

    Here’s a brilliant new anthem to you and your website,

    “If these Wings could fly”

    by Birdy. (with lyrics)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF9XcBhJqF8

    Enjoy!

  161. Purlie says:

    W NEILSON at 8.40

    I have been dealing with Business Stream for about three years. It can be a shambles. I got FIVE different bills from them the same day for the same small property at one point.

  162. K1 says:

    Thanks Alan! The very one… 🙂

  163. Another Union Dividend says:

    A really vitriolic piece on Michelle Thomson from Red Tory Brian Wilson in the Hootsman tomorrow

    https://archive.is/3Dsrn

  164. Ian Brotherhood says:

    This thread deserves a sequel, entitled ‘Thicker than mince’.

    Question – who might the subject be?

    Hmm…

  165. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @davidb (11.41) –

    Hear hear.

  166. yesindyref2 says:

    Ooops, she who must be obeyed has spoken! 🙂

  167. mealer says:

    davidb 11.41,
    It is entirely consistent to complain about the EU but still want membership.Good post,though.

  168. Valerie says:

    davidb @11.41

    I agree with all of that!

    The SG supports Scottish membership of the EU, so of course they want to be seen playing ball. Every Local Authority has a team dedicated to complying with tendering processes to get best value and avoid litigation, so Scotgov is no different, and sets the tone with their strategy for procurement.

    I don’t think any of us wants to see work going outside Scotland, but this is where we are – on a bigger stage, workwise.

    I don’t blindly defend any types of actions, but I am defending the SG, in the same way Scott Minto has laid out.

    I am very frustrated that criticism of SG comes from every corner, and I despair that it’s not just the usual suspects.

    The article is intended to bring clarity and evidence, and of course it does.

  169. heedtracker says:

    It was always so, but GCHQ doesn’t give a damn. A smear talked about long enough, sticks.

    So they fart out this endlessly

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/07/mp-michelle-thomson-referred-to-watchdog-over-property-deals

    But don’t actually report Westminster Standards watchdog not investigating. Instead usual shysters put this out. Dirty dirty dirty, and not in the good way:D

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/09/solicitor-mp-michelle-thomson-property-deals-reported-soca-2011

    Rancid Graun’s creep out on Sturgeon’s pulled out some very bitter UKOK types tonight too. Lovely people unionists.

  170. liz says:

    MT could be as gulity as everyone says but has anyone ever seen such a witch hunt against any politico?

    What Corbyn endured was peanuts compared to this.

    On twitter a few of her constituents are saying, keep your chin up and that a lot had stayed away from her surgery today as the place had photographers and the Glen there.

    Hope she is getting support from the SNP behind the scenes because she will need it.

    IMO she is being used to shield Carmichael.

    If found guilty she will be expelled from the party but that’s not what this is about.

  171. Grouse Beater says:

    Another Union Dividend: “A really vitriolic piece from …”

    Sometimes it aids sanity not to read the right-wing press. After all, anything in the Scotsman set against Scotland is the equivalent of a dying ferret vacating its bowels.

  172. liz says:

    Mike Dailly is compiling a list of WoS supporters who use twitter, so just saying hello now, make sure your hair is combed before leaving the house tomorrow.

    https://twitter.com/BjCruickshank/status/652619947894546432

  173. dakk says:

    ‘thicker than mince’

    That would be be me you’re talking bout 🙂

    I don’t have any dogma whether it’s public ownership or private enterprise.

    The problems with privatisation of business water supply are likely to come in 10 or 20 years when the small water companies are bought over and we see cartelling and price fixing,so competition policy would have to be strict.

    Unfortunately this tends not to be the case, so I would probably favour the 51% state ownership a la EDF

  174. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Liz, aye Dailly tried to make a list last year. He was deluged with Wings volunteers saying “dont forget me…” Dont think that was quite what he intended. Still have my prized “I’m on the list” Wings badge.

  175. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    liz at 12.12

    Guilty of what?

  176. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Another Union Dividend at 11.56

    The Hootsman now sells fewer copies (appx 16,000 per day)than many of Scotland’s local newspapers and the only significant effect is has is on the repeating of some of its copy.

    I think it is time for us to draw up a list of the modern day Parcel of Rogues. Brian Wilson would be up somewhere near the top alongside John Reid and Gordon Brown

  177. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @dakk (12.18) –

    My use of ‘thicker than mince’ wasn’t aimed at you, or anyone else.

    🙂

  178. liz says:

    Of possible mortgage fraud of which there is NO evidence but that is what is being pushed by MSM.

    My point being, IF she is guilty of anything. she will be dealt with but some parts of the media have already had her judged, and sentenced.

    https://twitter.com/Rpearson081/status/652597596805013504?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=fb&utm_campaign=liz6153&utm_content=652628923558268928

  179. Capella says:

    @yesindyref2
    It must be your turn today, commiserations. I think the best way to deal with ad hominem attacks is to treat them with the ignoral they deserve.

    SNP members have the right to discuss policy and consider options. It’s not a cult. So please carry on posting your thoughts on any issue you find interesting.

    I guess the current wave of press smearing is fraying nerves.

  180. dramfineday says:

    Mmmm……Philip Madoc could have played Mike Dailly….your name will go on the list, “don’t tell him, Pike” same pretty threatening manner. As a non twitter user, and in support of my fellow twitter using Wingers, I demand my name be put on the list …again….same as last year.

  181. dakk says:

    Ian 12.45

    No worries.

    That’s just my persecution complex in full on mode again.

    I’ll ask Dr Ew to up my dosage again 🙂

  182. manandboy says:

    EVERYTHING HAS AN EXPLANATION

    @liz 12:12 am
    ‘MT could be as guilty as everyone says but has anyone ever seen such a witch hunt against any politico?’
    __________________________________

    The thinking behind the attack on MT is that this ‘story’ provides an opportunity for continuous coverage over a lengthy period, forcing the population to think about one thing – and that she and the SNP are guilty. The plan is to prevent the electorate from having any breathing space to reflect. This is non-stop PR blanket bombing by No.10 Downing St. With each step, Cameron is giving it the nod.

    Since the Referendum did not kill off the Independence movement, it appears that the Establishment are seriously irked, and determined to finish the job at the Holyrood elections.

    Expect saturation PR smear bombing over the next 7 months from the Unionists . This will be an onslaught designed to defeat the SNP.

  183. heedtracker says:

    @ Capella I guess the current wave of press smearing is fraying nerves.

    Not at all. If you’re a YES you’ve watched people like Alex Salmond get treated even worse for decades. Also posting links to the Tripping up Trump BBC video monstering of Salmond and Holyrood broadcast prime time Sunday night too, with your wee note about how hardly anyone saw but they really must, is old school stuff Capella, whatever you’re up to.

  184. Valerie says:

    My nerves aren’t frayed.

    yesindyref2 addressed me when I posted a general comment. My remarks are pretty specific about tendering processes.

    I’ve said my piece. Scott Mintos article says it all.

  185. dakk says:

    Valerie 1.14

    ‘my nerves are not frayed’

    You obviously didn’t watch the Scotland match last night then,cos mines are still totally fragged 🙁

  186. yesindyref2 says:

    @Capella
    Yes, expressing contrary views or even discussing possibilities (whether you support them or not) does seem to attract untoward attention.

    But yet at the SNP Conference in 2012, 48% voted against NATO being part of SNP policy, so that means they’re no longer SNP members. Umm. Then there’s some don’t agree with the all female shortlist. Ooops, there go another batch of SNP members. Then there’s A, B,C, …ooops, the SNP only has 7 members left and we don’t know where they are this week.

    That’s strange, last email I got said there were 112,800 members or something like that. Ah well, they must be imaginary members.

    The most recent poll shows Constituency support at 56%, list at 52%. Well, that’s OK but could be better. What is it about the SNP that those 44% or 48% don’t like? One thing’s for sure, if we shout them down, we’ll never know. Or convince them to vote SNP. Or YES next time.

  187. Sandy Henderson says:

    Re. Brian Wilson’s diatribe in the ‘hootsmon 10th Oct.
    This guy never changes. Eventually elected to the Labour party in a safe seat where an omeba would win, with his mouth, he was given the role of energy minister or secretary or whatever when oil & gas was secondary to the Etonians & higher ‘oinks’ of Westminster, only for him to make such an a**e of things that he was posted out of the way, such was his embarrasment to the government at that time.
    I believe he was then deselected as a future candidate, something he will probably deny.
    Yet,he is still around spouting personal opinion in an evil, bigoted manner. Why he is entertained by the media, bad as they are, is beyond my comprehension.
    I’m pretty thick skinned but each time I come across him, be it in acticle or interview, I CRINGE.

  188. Fiona says:

    OT. Anyone else notice the news from Iceland today?

    They have repaid IMF early and jailed 3 more bankers.

    Seems newsworthy to me

  189. willie says:

    This will probably deliver a good result for the Scottish taxpayer.

    Anglian Water probably underbid their tender and Scottish Water will be the beneficiary of that. Moreover, most of the meter readers and the like will simply TUPE transfer over to Anglian Water on similar terms a d conditions.

    The issue however brings into sharp focus the disaster in waiting that TTIP is. Can anyone imagine the impact when an American Healthcare Corporation edxcercises its rights under TTIP to take over let us say all the Glasgow hospitals.

    Now that would be a disaster but that’s what our Tory Westminster Government is walkingus in to by not negotiating an exception.

    But hey, we voted for it when we sucked up Better Together.

  190. ScottieDog says:

    @fiona
    Possibly the most important thing coming out of Iceland is the potential switch away from a debt based monetary system and its proposal for monetary reform. Iceland has that choice because it has its own sovereign currency – Scotland in a currency union wouldn’t ..

    http://positivemoney.org/2015/04/iceland-fundamental-reform-monetary-system-must-considered/

  191. Ken500 says:

    The Eurozone has a shared currency union of 27 countries, many of whom are the wealthiest fairest and most equal in the world. Germany (economy similar to Scotland) is doing rather well.

    It’s not the shared currency. It’s Westminster disastrous policies, secrecy, lies and the Official Secrets Act. Other countries do not act like that. Against the public interest and the majority wishes.

    Scotland already has an abundance of water, food and energy.

  192. galamcennalath says:

    OT and back to MT.

    Glenn Campbell on Twitter. Suggesting MT might want to stand down. A ridiculous suggestion at this stage in the story. It can only be a politically motivated tweet.

    He get’s plenty of appropriate feedback!

    https://mobile.twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/652418462757822465

    If you had any doubts about GC not actually being a journalist, but a placed propagandist, then this should clarify.

  193. Brian Powell says:

    OK this, below, was reported in the Telegraph but the link is not to the it’s site.

    All the middle class No voters who thought the Tories in Westminster would look after them, a new plan to raid their pensions.

    http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/politics/government-planning-£7bn-assault-on-gold-plated-final-salary-pension-schemes/ar-AAfih20?li=AA9SkIr&ocid=mailsignoutmd

  194. Capella says:

    @ Fiona
    That is good news about Iceland. Even if it was posted in the middle of the night!
    I watched a broadcast by Yoko Ono from Iceland yesterday celebrating what would have been John Lennon’s 75th birthday. They have some kind of light structure event.

    Currency options are still to be resolved. I think ScottieDog is right about sovereign currency. But how to implement?

  195. scottieDog says:

    Ken500
    Germany is doing rather well because it has a huge current account surplus. The level of deficit spending required by many eu countries cannot be undertaken due to the fiscal rules imposed by the troika.
    Having such constraints placed upon us by the bank of england would be very restrictive.

  196. galamcennalath says:

    Ken500 says:

    Other countries do not act like that. Against the public interest and the majority wishes.

    There are a lot of things wrong with WM and the way it operates, but one thing stands out more than any other IMO. There is no way you can describe the antiquated first past the post system as democratic. Situations like the present arise where a party gets a third of the votes but is allowed to rule absolutely.

    I have never understood why the rest of the EU hasn’t insisted that the UK must raise its parliamentary standards with a voting system whereby the government actually reflects popular opinion!

    If PR had been introduced 30-40-50 years ago, the UK would be totally different.

    But it didn’t, and it won’t, so we had best just close the door when we leave.

  197. scottieDog says:

    Couple of old links re sovereign currency options…
    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=28716
    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=25895

    A nation with its own sovereign currency cannot default, a nation using a foreign currency can.

  198. Capella says:

    @ heedbanger
    You’re right about one thing. I was not aware that BBC 2 had broadcast “You’ve Been Trumped” on a Sunday and Tuesday night in 2012. It attracted around 1 m viewers on the Sunday. Trump tried, but failed, to prevent the broadcast.

    I haven’t had a TV for c 20 years so I do apologise for my ignorance of TV scheduling.

  199. Janet says:

    Next May, the Prime Minister does not wish to find himself in the position of having to refuse indyref2 after a massive SNP majority, hence why the Establishment are pulling out the stops!

    They would rather a minority Govt or a coalition with Greens or socialists, then they can cry “no demand”.

    In May, make it SNP/SNP.

  200. Angra Mainyu says:

    As to why most people on here are wrong to overstate the importance of the attacks on MT, the Anglican watergate stuff, and ‘their’ strategy henceforth in the run up to the elections of 2016.

    The approach now that Corbyn is Labour leader is to unceasingly attack the SNP from a left wing perspective; this is what the MT and the water stories have in common. It’s a good strategy from a marketing standpoint. Actually, it’s the only strategy that might work for them — everything else has failed — and it gets to the very heart of the Scottish independence debate.

    The problem they have correctly identified and are finally addressing revolves around the idea that most Scottish independence supporters are driven by principle, not economics or politics per se. I would vote for independence even if I knew for certain that it would result in a 50% loss in earnings. My guess is that I’m not alone. So how do you deal with that irrationality from ‘their’ point of view?

    You deal with it by fighting fire with fire, or, in this case, principle with principle. Normal politics, as has been shown, just won’t work against principle.

    The strategy will have some success, I expect. It will persuade a proportion of those wavering old Labour types to return “home” to Labour, nobody could guess how many, and it will to a lesser extent possibly eat into the more luke warm core support of the SNP.

    If that’s all the bad news, here is the good news. Nothing they say or do will affect my decision in terms of support and voting. I get the feeling most of us are wired like that now.

    Also, you people here on Wings and elsewhere, you are super-engaged in the day-to-day stuff. I’m not criticising that but the vast majority of core Independence supporters, like me, stopped watching and paying attention to their lies months (if not years) ago. Their smear tactics etc. will not work on that core support, rest assured.

    As for the big picture, we have a political system dominated by a pro-independence party that is decidedly left-leaning. The only potential challengers to that have been forced to adapt and move to the extremities just to take part in the debate. It really is all rather good.

  201. Chic McGregor says:

    @Liz & Bob
    How about this?

    By Glen Campbell (minor tweaks)

    I am a line man for the country
    And I drive the main road
    Searchin’ in the muck for another nat bashing load
    I hear you whingin’ on the twitter
    I can hear you through the whine
    But the Witch hunting line man is still on the line

  202. heedtracker says:

    I haven’t had a TV for c 20 years so I do apologise for my ignorance of TV scheduling.

    No tv, found BBC broadcasting Tripping up Trump monstering of Scottish democracy somehow or other last week, announce here its a must see because?

    Thanks for the viewing figures. The point is that the documentary was piled on by all Project Fear vote NO campaigners and media to smear Salmond and YES, from the BBC to every newspaper. As you have not watched tv for 20 years you wouldn’t know any of this, until just last week, so your ignorance is totally understandable. lol

    If you’re against Trump golf at Aberdeen, fine, if you’re against wind energy, fine, if you’re against Scottish independence, fine, its a free country, where the UK media is a giant machine to manipulate voters.

    eg

    If only the ladies and gentle of the press and the BBC had investigated Jimmy Saville just once in his entire life the way they are with an SNP MP called Thompson.

    You see Cappella? Oh wait you don’t watch tv.

  203. Giving Goose says:

    Just read the Glenn Campbell tweet re MT.
    Disgraceful stuff.
    If proof were needed that Glenn Campbell is biased then this is it.
    Campbell should be sacked by the BBC because he has displayed a blatantly partisan view.
    Russia Today, Al Jazeera etc should take note, because if they wished to comment on the BBCs propaganda with evidence, then this is it.

    Campbell’s tweet is of an order of magnitude that cannot be down played.

    Campbell is not a disgrace to journalism because he clearly is not a journalist.

    He is an agent of the British State. That is crystal clear and obvious for all to see.

    As an agent he is either stupid or arrogant. This tweet wasn’t subtle, but thanks Glenn for letting us definitively know what we always suspected.

    You are a British Agent.

  204. Helena Brown says:

    Well here is one which will affect the middle class who voted No, in fact it will affect many others but mainly Doctors and Teachers and those in the higher echelons of Public Service. The Tory Government are looking at raiding their pension schemes, in reducing the amount of tax relief allowances. Just think how many people who thought staying in this so called Union to protect themselves are going to feel when they discover this.

  205. HandandShrimp says:

    Didn’t somebody else try to compile a list of WoS Twitter users. I don’t have time for another interweb thing but I was tempted to get an account last time just to be on the list.

    They just don’t get it.

  206. Croompenstein says:

    @Martin@5:18 –

    Yeah, govts hands pretty much tied. Award it to Business stream and the EU would have undoubtedly been informed by a disgruntled someone and hammered us. The SNPs main crime in all these decisions seems to be actual transparency….

    @Fran@9:45 –

    Im in construction and we deal with new applications to B/stream and S/water, the whole system is a mess. Maybe we will get a better service from Anglian. B/Stream sacked their top men because there were 700 outstanding applications that had been on the system for months and not delt with. The service from B/Stream was very poor and a lot of complaints had gone in from businesses to the Scottish Government

    @dakk@11:38 –

    My own experience of privatisation of non domestic water is that my water charges have come down by 25% since I moved from Business Stream to Castle Water,so what’s not to like,unless you are into socialist dogma

    Somebody’s wantin to tell Stephen Paton and Mike Small this..
    with friends like that etc…

  207. heedtracker says:

    Just read the Glenn Campbell tweet re MT.
    Disgraceful stuff.

    Just imagine how hard it is for him to fail and fail and fail. Everyday he’s off to Pacific Quay to fail. Did you catch him bitch about it all with stuffed shirt Murray early morning May 8, the last of the mohicans bitterly bickering away, was worth a licence fee on it own.

    So get one Capella, honest and truthful as you, keeps you up to date on daily full on monstering of Scottish democracy by the impartial unbiased beeb.

  208. Valerie says:

    @angra mainyu

    Not disagreeing with your analysis at all.

    However, I just think it’s really important that we take every chance to correct any lies, misrepresentation and call out insinuation for what it is.

    There is a swathe of people from different areas, and its really noticeable just now, that are much more subtle in their attack. It’s just quietly undermining, not actually coming out and saying SNP are shite. I can’t fir the life of me see how this supports the cause of trying to convert people to support independence, which everyone says, is where our role must be.

    If you have read any articles by commonspace as an example, some are just downright insidious and misinformed on the subject. Readers then sally forth, and I see it parroted on Indy pages. We had the recent example of Cat Boyd in the National, on the MT bandwagon, using it to insinuate SNP are like Blair etc.

    There has been a discernible increase in effort of late.

    Of course, everyone is entitled to debate/comment, but not entitled to their own set of facts.

    I’m quite concerned at the moment. I’m seeing too much of it, and its a fact that there are paid trolls.

  209. Early Ball says:

    The thing I do not get re the Wind Turbines Trump is fighting is that there are only a couple of holes where you can see the sea.
    Magnificent course by the way.

  210. Big Jock says:

    I feel embarrassed for BBC journalists. Salmond criticised them and they didn’t like it. Now they are acting as an extension of the Tory party.

    Expect the BBC to spend their whole time investigating every SNP MP,MSP and candidate from here on in. This is their war against the Scots who voted yes.

    Don’t get angry at them though. Just leave them to it. Remember the longer you smear the less people believe and the sympathy often falls back to the victim. Do they forget the Saville cover up, cash for questions, the pigs head! People know the BBC are corrupt.

    The sinister way the camera in the Great British Bake off focuses on the Union Jack bunting! Do they think this is getting their message out? They are amateurs remember. The more you force a nationality on people the more the opposite of this they become. All this talk of home nations etc is part of it.

    We beat them in the last election and the one before. We will beat them in Holyrood. They thought we were beaten after 2014. But we are growing. The SNP will wipe the floor with the Unionists next year. They know it and smearing only works if people believe there is corruption. If the smeared is seen as corrupt their messages only harden resolve.

    And in all of this they have forgotten that Michelle is a human being with feelings and emotions. They have singled her out as a hate figure. Will they hound her until she has to leave her country to have any sort of life. They are disgusting utterly disgusting.

  211. Chic McGregor says:

    @Early Ball

    Maybe with his comb over he has a pathological hatred of fans.

  212. Croompenstein says:

    Is Chris on holiday AGAIN!!

  213. HandandShrimp says:

    Early Balls

    I think Trump has a long history of hating wind turbines wherever they are. I think he is old school Republican…cold weather is just God telling you to burn another Mexican…or something.

  214. Valerie says:

    Chic McGregor says:
    10 October, 2015 at 10:16 am
    @Early Ball

    Maybe with his comb over he has a pathological hatred of fans.

    🙂 Reminds me of Archie Macpherson

  215. heedtracker says:

    I think Trump has a long history of hating wind turbines wherever they are.

    He was merely just one more UKOK unionist attack weapon on Scotland and Holyrood. If Trump had been anyone else, his Mennie development wouldn’t have been noticed, let alone made national UKOK headlines.

    Try google, Trump, Mennie, The Guardian, Libby Carrell, and there hundreds of attack thingees all aimed to manipulate voters into hating Salmond, Holyrood, Scotland running Scotland.

    Local unionists went mental over Mennie, nationally they went UKOK berserk. Tripping up Trump maker is ex BBC, BBC Scotland bought it.

    Before Libby got promoted to editor of their Scotland region, and after dozens of stuff like this, because they all really weally cared about Balmedie.

    http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/may/26/donald-trump-scotland-golf-protest

    Opponents of Donald Trump’s proposed £1bn golf resort in Aberdeenshire claim they have thwarted his plans to forcibly purchase land in a mass protest backed by celebrities and conservationists.

    Scores of people including comedian Mark Thomas and mountaineer Cameron McNeish have been made joint owners of one acre of land previously owned by Michael Forbes, the quarryman and salmon netsman who has become Trump’s most famous opponent.

    Virtually all my English friends in England look at the north east of Scotland in much the same way they look at Brittany or Portugal.

  216. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Would Wings Over Scotland like to respond to this?”

    The “social and environmental” bit is pure pish, based on a wildly skewed interpretation. I’m also instinctively mistrustful of the intellectual credibility of anyone who says “upmost” when they mean “utmost”.

    However, it seems a valid point that the Scottish Governmnt could have repealed Labour’s 2005 Act. Looking into it.

  217. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “The Scottish Governement could award the contract to whoever it wants. If they award it to a public body for political reasons then of course, as described in the article, they would be open to legal challenge. But if you’re the SNP wouldn’t that be great fight to have…English corporation takes wee Scotland to court to take control of our lovely water…even a losing legal battle would be a winner politically.”

    So just to be clear – what you’re saying is that the SNP should piss away millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money to score political points?

  218. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Why do you think millions have taken to the streets in Ireland if it was infact the jurisdiction of the EU and there was no redress could be had ?”

    I’m pretty sure “millions” didn’t take to the streets in Ireland over anything, given that there are only 4.6m people in the entire country.

  219. Lollysmum says:

    O/T
    The Orkney 4 still need more support-if you can help please do.
    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-people-versus-carmichael#/updates

    Back in court on Monday for a By Order hearing so not being televised but they are negotiating to try & get the trial televised at least for voters in Orkney to be able to watch. What’s the betting WM starts to get fidgety about the prospect of that.

    There is the prospect of the trial taking 4 days in court so give what you can, get your popcorn in, pick your comfiest armchair & settle in-it’s going to be interesting 🙂

  220. Lenny Hartley says:

    Max Keiser on the MT case now, can someone on Twitter send him the link to Wos?
    Some guy called Ian Fraser feeding him pish. Missed most of it as somebody came to door.

  221. Onwards says:

    @Angra Mainyu

    The SNP may lose some support from the extreme left, but i think most people can see the big picture, and the contradictions from labour who are a total shambles at the moment.

    At the end of the day, most people understand that business growth and social policies go hand in hand. One pays for the other.

    People look at the SNP’s record and they see ‘sensible socialism’.
    Free education, personal care, prescriptions, school dinners etc

    But they also see huge investment in infrastructure and the small business bonus.

    And to top it off, they are the ones pushing for more powers for Scotland.
    It’s a winning formula.

  222. Chic McGregor says:

    @Valerie

    “Reminds me of Archie Macpherson”

    In his case it was more like the fans (well some of them) had a hatred of him. 🙂

  223. Robert Peffers says:

    @heedtracker says: 10 October, 2015 at 12:08 am:

    “It was always so, but GCHQ doesn’t give a damn. A smear talked about long enough, sticks.”

    Ach! Heedtracker . Let’s spell out what is NOT being said throughout this whole witch-hunt.

    The people claimed as, “The victims”, and those being portrayed as the wicked people victimising them are being transposed by the real evil, “witch-hunting”, perpetrators. These are also concealing much from those members of the more gullible MSM and Unionist broadcaster readers & viewers.

    Now I’m just postulating the much more obvious truth here :-

    The claimed victims get a massive discount when buying their council house under a scheme set up by both the Thatcher, (later retained by Labour), governments. They do not have cash in hand so they arrange a Mortgage with, the real evil guys in this tale, the banks that also landed the UK into financial trouble.

    Then the financial crisis those evil banks and UK Governments created hit the claimed victims and they could then not keep up their mortgage payments on the home that actually now belongs to the evil bank as the, “Victims”, used the property as collateral for the loan.

    The evil bank then want to foreclose on the loan and repossess the home. The, “Victims”, then stand to lose not only the home but the already paid portion of the mortgage. The, “Victims”, then contact the real victim person’s company, “The Victims”, now claim to be, “A Cheeky Bitch”.

    The company will take out a loan that includes, along with the now higher purchase price, the, “victims”, outstanding mortgage arrears and purchases the property at the higher purchase price. Then give, “cashback”, to the, “Victims”, to pay off their outstanding mortgage.

    “The Victims”, gain from the initial discount and a nice profit on the sale. The evil banks get their money back and get shot of a property in a weak sellers market.

    The new owners do-up the property and either rent-it out or sell at a profit and clear their loan. No one is out of pocket and everyone is happy.

    Enter the Witch-hunters and now there really are going to be victims, (besides the lawyer who got done by his own Trade Association.

    I’m guessing, of course, but it seems the most reasonable reading of the known facts.

  224. heedtracker says:

    Ach! Heedtracker . Let’s spell out what is NOT being said throughout this whole witch-hunt.

    They must have been thrilled to bits when they found the “vulnerable homeowners” ready to get involved. Sup with the britnat media, long spoons all round. Here’s the UKOK smear machine rancid The Graun style this week. Is Michelle in the mafia, hints the alleged assorted goon show?

    “Thomson’s solicitor Christopher Hales, who was struck off for possible mortgage fraud in 2014, to Soca – now the National Crime Agency – in 2011.

    Thomson is alleged to have profited from vulnerable homeowners but has denied any wrongdoing. The former SNP business spokesperson, who took a prominent role in last year’s independence referendum campaign”

    You can say anything you teamGB media like, we just add “alleged” m’lud.

  225. INDEPENDENT says:

    Slightly O/T
    Business Stream (SCOTTISH WATER), Sub contract their billing out to Yorkshire Water.

    OOOPS

    They don’t tell anyone about this do they.

    That’s why I left them

    Also to all the businesses out there with meters.

    I bet they are billing you on your OLD RATABLE VALUES ie 2000 valuations. Probably owe millions in repayments for overcharging.

    Proudscot Buts (Corrupt Bas****s)

    Go check it out folk.

  226. heedtracker says:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/09/eu-referendum-britain-out-europe-brexit

    Interesting air brushing out of UK history of Project Fear here. Will either side of imperial masterdom decide to use same vote NO or else terror they dumped on their Scotland region last year?

    Is there are EU Crash Brown ready to rage BBC Scotland style IN/OUT, at England? You have to wonder if the genius of Crash Brown to keep UK out of the euro was luck or planning. Funny how little credit Crash actually gets for that from UKOK unionists and stay in EUists too.

  227. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    The Euro isn’t a problem. Like all “money” it is merely a collection of trading vouchers.
    The problem is some inefficient national economies, efforts to sort this and political decisions on financial matters of dubious utility.

    PS The Euro has gained value against the pound sterling for most of its years of existence. Is it perhaps the pound that has the problem (and how far are we away at any point from a crash)?

  228. Effijy says:

    O/T Read a friend’s Daily Malice today.
    Compared to last Saturday’s 12 x SNP Bad stories,
    we only have 3 today?

    They have now given their main focus to slating Labour and promoting the UK’s exit from the EU.

    We can’t have God’s Chosen nation, Engerlund, with Lefties and
    Johnny Foreigners giving workers rights.

    They are still giving MT the same coverage as you would with an International Finance confidence trickster and mass murderer, so it seems the Police really need to work harder in finding a reason to actually ask her a question.

    Scot bashing seem to be 3rd on their list of priorities, but I’ve every hope of topping the league again when next May’s elections are approaching.

    PS It seems that the Iron “Lady” was indeed the 2nd messiah!
    We just wouldn’t be here today if it wasn’t her closing down
    our industrial base, breaking the miners/trade unions, giving us mortgages of 15% plus, record unemployment, and knowing which pedophile warning to completely ignore.

    Maybe we should dig her up?
    Anyone know how much 10 tons of fast set concrete would be?

  229. Big Jock says:

    Cmon Scotland…into these Samoans.

  230. Chic McGregor says:

    Phew!

  231. Big Jock says:

    We can beat the wallabies! Well if 14 come down with food poisoning!

  232. yesindyref2 says:

    @Big Jock
    Beauty of it is we’ve already won by getting to the last eight. Anything else is a bonus!

  233. heraldnomore says:

    I’m told the SW/BS/Anglian situation is all the fault of the SNPBadParty who have had eight years and haven’t done anything to right the wrongs of their predecessors. Always want someone to blame, SNPBaaaad.

  234. Big Jock says:

    15 years ago I would have been depressed about Scotland being out of the euro finals. Now I just think it’s only football. My country is more important.

    I think most fans have that attitude now.But to some football is still their nation. Most no voters I know are depressed about a football match. When they should have been depressed about not being a nation.

    Priorities have changed for yes voters.

  235. Squirrel Knutz says:

    Everyone stating SG should change law so Business Stream win future contracts. Be careful what you wish for. They’re a feckin joke of a company and their charges are outrageous.

    Businesses in Scotland who have contracted with other suppliers (we chose Cobalt, a Scottish company ) would be rightly up in arms & out of pocket were this to happen.

  236. mitch says:

    Big Jock, That is exactly how I feel the first and only time I cried after a Scottish football result was 1969 (although I have been raging / scunnered on numerous occasions )the first and hopefully last time I cried after a political result was the referendum.



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