Scottish independence, plus jokes.

Wings Over Scotland


The memory hole

Posted on May 02, 2013 by

We weren’t exactly shocked to see the Scotsman still trying to flog the “evil cybernats” routine this morning with another story about Susan Calman, with the paper seizing on some comments from Fiona Hyslop as their excuse to keep the issue alive.

Today’s article, though, is noticeably more restrained than yesterday’s. It’s liberally sprinkled with disclaimers and caveats noting that the threats and abuse had been alleged, rather than reporting them as empirical facts. It even notes that Ms Calman has declined to comment further on the supposed events, implying that there were questions to be answered.

memoryhole4

Then we got to the comments, and things started to get a bit weird.

We were browsing the story at 7am, and noticed that it already had close to 300 comments, which seemed an awful lot. So we read a few, and were overcome with a sense of deja vu. We went back to our post from yesterday, clicked the Scotsman link in it, and found that it now redirected to the new piece. The original Scotsman article, full of unsupported statements of fact, had been entirely overwritten and effectively no longer exists – at least not in a form accessible to search engines.

Curiosity aroused, we took a look at the print edition of today’s paper to see if the Scotsman was simply pulling another silent online backpedal. But the new version appears as a prominent full page, alongside a secondary piece detailing the “Unsavoury history of ‘cyber-nats'” - which of course only reflects the actions of those on the pro-independence side, with no mention of Unionist threats or abuse.

boylethreat

And just in case anyone still wasn’t sure what to think, there’s also a startling, staggeringly crude editorial cartoon, depicting a hideous gang of freakish mutant Yes supporters marching with flaming torches past a gallows (whose noose is in the shape of an SNP logo), chanting Calman’s name and wearing fake ballot papers emblazoned “SAY AYE OR DIE!”

Meanwhile a worried Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon and John Swinney are depicted looking on – clearly laying responsibility for the alleged, still unsupported “abuse” fully and solely at the feet of the SNP, despite there being no evidence of the supposed abusers having any connection to the party (if they exist at all).

The First Minister is shown holding a copy of The Economist – beyond any reasonable doubt a reference to the “Skintland” furore of last year, in an unmistakeable attempt to liken him and the rest of the SNP leadership to the “humourless, small-minded” lynch mob persecuting poor delicate Susan Calman.

ayeordie

So on the one hand we have the paper retreating from its definite, unequivocal statements that there were death threats and abuse – in the face of the continuing absence of a single scrap of supporting evidence for what’s now FOUR separate stories in two days – while on the other publishing a cartoon which not only reasserts the allegations as fact but embellishes them massively.

Long-time readers may of course be thinking at this point “Well, so far you’re just describing an average day on the Scotsman”. But the unusual aspect is that the new story hasn’t simply been added to yesterday’s shock-horror report in the online archives, but has overwritten it. (Which is doubly strange, because the new story explicitly makes reference to the previous one.)

It’s not entirely unprecedented for the Scotsman to simply “vanish” a dodgy story, of course, nor even for it to covertly replace one with a more innocuous version. But it’s quite rare for it to do it and then keep battering away at the same story the next day.

The sinister aspect, though, is that the print edition of yesterday’s paper is now lining budgie cages and cat-litter trays. It will disappear from history, leaving only the online version, and anyone looking for the original in future will find that it has been vaporised.

There’s no ethical or technical justification for this whatsoever – we very much doubt the Scotsman has run out of webspace. It is, quite apart from anything else, extremely misleading to still have all the original comments, which refer to a completely different text, still in place. But it’s also deeply disturbing for the Scotsman to simply rewrite history. If it’s ashamed of yesterday’s story (and on every journalistic level it should be), it should apologise for it. If it isn’t, what’s it trying to hide?

Ironically, this website was the recipient of an actual “barrage of abuse” yesterday for calmly questioning the lack of evidence in the original piece. We were called “the vilest possible person”, a “bully”, the “tosser of the week”, a “misogynist” and “cybernat knuckle-dragger” and much more besides, as both Unionists and what we like to call WetNats (pro-independence types desperate to be feted as “reasonable” by the No camp) lined up to excoriate us for daring to ask for proof of an unsupported claim. And unlike the Scotsman, we DO have the evidence to back that assertion up.

(Though we feel duty-bound to acknowledge that the paper’s arts editor Andrew Eaton-Lewis stuck his head above the parapet and very honourably challenged some of the more abusive comments, first on Twitter and then in a piece in the arts blog today. We hope – probably in vain – that some people will reconsider their kneejerk responses in the light of today’s events.)

eatonlewis

The phenomenon of the “memory hole” is now becoming so worryingly commonplace in the Scottish (and UK) media that we’ve added a new tag collecting together all the examples of it we’ve tracked. Because if we take our eyes off them for even a second, there’s no telling what our media will get away with.

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  1. 07 08 14 00:24

    From the ramparts of Scotland | We'll never be fooled again!

148 to “The memory hole”

  1. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    On Topic, at this early stage
    Could this be grounds for a complaint to the Press Commission or whoever it is which oversee standards in the Press.
     
    Probably not

  2. HandandShrimp says:

    As someone who was an ardent Scotsman reader back in the late 70s and 80s (and had even got my head around Cash’s cryptic cryptic crossword clues) it is a source of considerable sadness that such a responsible and well written newspaper could end up in such a pathetic state….a low brow version of the Daily Mail. A Soviet era Pravda editor could sit beside a modern day Scotsman editor and feel morally superior. However, it is clear that the economics of selling papers in Scotland are of no consequence to the owners and that the rationale for continuing with the Scotsman seems to be to maintain some sort of political pamphlet. What should be a flagship quality newspaper for Scotland is little more than a Conservative and Unionist tract.
     
    Sorry for the rant..I used to really like that paper and when I worked in England in the 80s my local newsagent used to obtain it for me.  

  3. Mac says:

    So no hard evidence that Susan Calman was abused. Now Ms Calman has declined to comment further over the allegations she has made to the media.
     
    We can conclude quite reasonably that this was a stunt.
     
    So who is the real victim here? 

  4. pmcrek says:

    Ok four newspaper articles and national TV coverage now all claiming death threats were made.. aren’t the police duty bound to take the initiative on such a serious matter and  investigate?

  5. Seasick Dave says:

    Funnily enough, my fourteen year old son was playing football the other night against a team which were, how shall we say, from the wrong side of the tracks.
     
    On receiving a tackle from one of our midfielders, their player threatened to kill him.
     
    Taking it in his stride, our player replied, “Do you want to do it now or after the match?” at which point the Terminator shut up and was as good as gold for the rest if the game!
     
    All this Scotsman stuff seems like a load of old shi*e to me :)

  6. Training Day says:

    Anyone with a passing knowledge of Streicher’s ‘Der Sturmer’ may have views on the genre of ‘cartoon’ the above represents..

  7. Mac says:

     
    Maybe this matter should be reported to the police, after all people should not be subject to death threats. 

  8. Colin Dunn says:

    para 9 missing end?
    ” . . but has overwritten it. Links to the original” oddity
    Let me guess – YOU DON”T KNOW WHAT I MEAN ;)

  9. HighlandMartin says:

    I stuggle with the concept of Twitter although I hung with it long enough to see your exchange with a comms lady at YesScot.  She made the comment that you were distracting the effort to get out a positive campaign message by your enquiries as to the basis for the story.  There is no point in Yes Scotland trying to talk to the voter if they are aleady on their arse with the carpet  pulled out from under them.
    Keep up the good work. I’m off to try and suss out twitter.

  10. BlueTiles says:

    I’m not one to usually get aggravated by a Scotsman cartoon but that’s got me quite fuming. Can you imagine the outrage of a cartoon like that with Unionists instead?
    The insane barrage of negativity over these past few weeks from the MSM is just too much sometimes. 
    Although I suppose it means the YES side must be doing something right.
     
     
     

  11. Desimond says:

    The Scotsman…what will it be called after Independence “Grumpy McGripe”?

  12. Seasick Dave says:

    So, if I sent an anonymous death threat to Alex Salmond, the Scotsman would publish a cartoon featuring Johann Lamont and her evil cyberUnionist lynch mob?

  13. Mac says:

     
    Remember social and cultural victimisation always follows politicised demonisation. 
     
    The poor are shirkers.
     
    Pensioners are skivers.
     
    Nationalists are vile. 

  14. a supporter says:

    “what we like to call WetNats (pro-independence types desperate to be feted as “reasonable” by the No camp)”
     
    “WetNats” is a brilliant name for them and there are plenty of them about. Some even on this site.
     

  15. Desimond says:

    Seasick…you mean if you allegedly sent…. no actual death threat has been shown of course

  16. Craig P says:

    Andrew Eaton Lewis is a good guy, he’s in a band. If journalists in Scotland are mainly pro-union, and artists mainly pro-indy, does that make a journalist with a band a neutral?

  17. McHaggis says:

    The Scotsman has no further depths to sink to and reached the point of not caring to even attempt to disguise their bias several years ago.

  18. Jimbo says:

    Kudos to Andrew Eaton-Lewis.
     
    The Scotsman is on the way out and they obviously need to stir up all the controversy they can manage in the hope of improving the sales figures of what was a once quality paper, but obfuscation, disinformation and downright lying is not the way to go about it. It eventually dawns on the readers that they are being taken for fools.
     
    Re Ms Calman: A long period googling couldn’t raise any info on the allegations made against the supposed cybernats. Rev Stu’s questioning of the lack of evidence therefore was not unreasonable.
     
    Shame that too many people got carried away by the ‘He said – She said’ brigade and jumped in with their tuppence worth without knowing any of, or caring about, the facts.
     
     

  19. pmcrek says:

    @Mac
    Fully agree, thing is, it may appear that any third party can report this incident to the police? After all this story has been on national TV and in national newspapers so far. Not so long ago a 17 year old was arrested for making death threats against footballer Callum McManaman on twitter, after it was reported to Northumbrian police apparently by a third party and this is in public domain now.
     
    Anyone with legal knowledge know if this is correct, that a third party could report this incident? If so anyone braver than me willing to make such a report to the police?

  20. a supporter says:

    HighlandMartin 2 May, 2013 at 10:49 am
     

    “… to see your (Rev Stu’s) exchange with a comms lady at YesScot.  She made the comment that you were distracting the effort to get out a positive campaign message by your enquiries as to the basis for the story…”
     
    If that is true I see little point in the YES campaign. There is positive then there is ‘positive’, what the YES campaign is apparently doing; not much. No wonder there is no movement in the polls. Get Margo MacDonald and Jim Sillars into the campaign and get the WetNats out. The ridiculous story by Calman HAD to be debunked.

     

  21. Seasick Dave says:

    Funnily enough, all of this nonsense brought this to mind…
     
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uwOL4rB-go
     
    I think that Alex could quite easily be substitued for Achmed :)

  22. G. Campbell says:

    It’s great to see the Scotsman doing such good work in continuing to bring Scots together in this way (evil cybernats/cyber-nats excepted). It really is the perfect antidote to separatist Salmond and his dastardly plans to split up Scotland into a series of Brigadoon bantustans. Susan will be well chuffed.

    Beabitkinder @23Rikoon 29 Apr
    @SusanCalman My worry is that Scotland was formerly united in politics culture everything. Salmond has now divided us for good. Thanks mate

    Susan Calman @SusanCalman
    @23Rikoon Yup. We really should have dinner soon to discuss x
    https://twitter.com/SusanCalman/status/328890777566580737

    bonus hashtags:
    #bettertogether #healingprocess #cats #diditellyouiwasscottish

  23. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Someone I know was invited to visit the YES HQ and they did.
     
    They told me that there were a lot of bright people there with lots of energy but no discernible game-plan.
     
    They came away disappointed.
     
    It may be there is a game plan but it is not yet ready to kick in but I find the mind controlling techniques used by the NO lot and their handmaidens and the lack of active public response by YES, frustrating. 
     
    I hope this does not scunner many potential YES activists and reduce the campaign’s effectiveness when it arrives.

  24. Tom Hogg says:

    Resolve further stiffened. Alongside Lesley Riddoch’s  piece about Finnish TV being disappointed at the lack of actual visible massed pitchforks may prove to be premature.

  25. G. Campbell says:

    David Leitch, former Vice-Chair of the Scottish Youth Parliament, spreads the love. 

    David Leitch @Dav3010
    Cyber Nat collective once again demonstrating they are the largest fascist group in the UK. #indyref #fascist #snp
    https://twitter.com/Dav3010/status/329573796975624192

    David Leitch @Dav3010
    Why do nationalists all have strange accentuated Scottish accents? #indyref
    https://twitter.com/Dav3010/status/316325877766033409
    #bettertogether #healingprocess

  26. Mac says:

     
    I note that Iain Green’s cartoons about Salmond and the SNP are regularly featured by UKIP. Is this the target audience?

  27. scottish_skier says:

    Smear doesn’t work. Only a ‘party’ can bring about its own electoral downfall/failure.
    The Tories are about to learn that about UKIP.
    Labour et al. still haven’t worked that out in Scotland, which shall be their ultimate undoing.

  28. Jason says:

    Even if there was evidence, there’s something very odd about a media which tries to pretend that a few individuals on Twitter represent a whole group, or movement, of people. This is very irresponsible journalism.

    Also, is seems unlikely that the Scotsman would go all out on this, with cartoons and the rest, if it was a comedian, say, who was ‘edgier’ or definitely pro-independence; it’s difficult to believe their agenda is anything but an attempt to smear the Yes campaign and the SNP.

    That a comedian can be so sensitive as to write a blog when they’ve only been told about about something written about them (and go on to presume the existence of others), also suggest an agenda, or someone who’s in the wrong business – that there’s far better political comedy from ordinary people on the internet would point to at least the latter.

  29. HandandShrimp says:

    If some nutjob did issue a death threat then a quiet word from the polis is in order.
     
    Yes Scotland is a positive message about how Scotland can be run for the benefit of the people of Scotland, creating a just and equal society (or at least more just and equal than the neo-conservative insanity we have been subject to for the last 30+ years). It doesn’t mean we can’t kick back if someone is rude or offensive (I’ve had my feisty moments arguing my point) but the campaign doesn’t need knuckle dragging dimwits making anonymous death threats, assuming such threats actually occurred which it isn’t at all clear they did. If there was such a threat then the person involved deserves having their scraped knuckles rapped and if it turns out they were Naesayers stirring it so much the better…either way it should be followed up. The police have been quick to act on similar things..Neil Lennon, Louise Mensch etc.,   
     
    Not sure I want to be a drynat…sounds like chaffing is involved.     

  30. a supporter says:

    Twitter by David Leitch @Dav3010
    Why do nationalists all have strange accentuated Scottish accents? #indyref”
    They don’t. it’s you who has the strange accentuated odd quasi English accent.

  31. Mac says:

     
    Ok who will be brave enough to report this matter to the police, because the allegations of deaths threats is far too serious to be ignored; and we now have a cartoonist strongly suggesting that death threats have actually be made by members of the SNP. 

  32. a supporter says:

    HandandShrimp 2 May, 2013 at 11:30 am
     
    “Yes Scotland is a positive message about how Scotland can be run for the benefit of the people of Scotland, creating a just and equal society (or at least more just and equal than the neo-conservative insanity we have been subject to for the last 30+ years).”
     
    That is just blah! And if that is one of YES Scotland’s campaigning slogans it is not enough. And would you please stop repeating the assertions of the Bitter Noes about cybernats. You are playing into their hands.
     

  33. HandandShrimp says:

    Mac
     
    The trouble is the police will actually be very sympathetic and no bravery is required but they will ask to see the death threat. Therein lies the problem. No one can seem to find the thing.

  34. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “If that is true I see little point in the YES campaign.”

    I don’t have much of a problem with it, to be honest. I’m fine with Yes Scotland doing all the positive, sunny, upbeat stuff, and as I’ve said before, they don’t really need to be doing much at this early stage other than let the Unionists drive people into our arms with their brainless hate and fear, although I’m a touch concerned if the suggestion of not having a gameplan yet is accurate.

    As far as I’m concerned Wings Over Scotland is here (a) to provide ammunition to doorsteppers in the form of properly-researched and sourced facts, (b) to come up with good arguments that people can use, (c) to provide concrete evidence of media bias that can be referred to to counter misinformation, but also (d) to do a little bit of streetfighting now and again so that the official Yes campaign doesn’t have to.

  35. G. Campbell says:

    Back to the blog which ripped Scotland apart. Susan wrote:

    “I’ve been told that someone has written a blog which is pretty abusive towards me after my performance on News Quiz (there’s probably more than one, no need to point them out to me).”

    Bullying via chinese whispers. There’s nothing worse. Something similar happened to me when I was at primary school. Someone said that someone heard that someone said that someone heard that someone said that someone heard that someone said that someone saw me steeling Richard Baker MSP’s Han Solo doll*. I didn’t. I did flush his calculator watch down the bogs, though.**

    “I haven’t looked for it, and won’t. It’s not worth it.”

    But I’ll write a blog about it anyway.

    * Based on a true story. My Han Solo was half-inched in Primary 1.

    ** Didn’t happen. Some arsehole did steal my calculator watch, though.

    Tip of the day: don’t take prized possessions to school.

  36. Seanair says:

    The best cartoonists are the ones who think for them selves and are not averse to ignoring the party line of the paper they work for. It has been notable for some years that the Scotsman cartoonists work in league with the Editor to show the SNP in as poor a light as possible (a “story”, a leader and a cartoon all appearing in the same issue).
    I was in a pub earlier this week,riffled through their copy of the rag, and the cartoon accused AS of rigging the name of the New Forth Crossing! Thought that was bad enough but today’s is worse.

  37. panda paws says:

    I wonder if we might have the makings of a new parlour game to join Alex Salmond dictator bingo? We could call it the Big Lie bingo – noting everytime MSM and No campaign use one of Goebbals techniques to discredit the Yes movement.

  38. Jiggsbro says:

    Why do nationalists all have strange accentuated Scottish accents?
     
    To be fair to Mr Leitch, I do have a very strangely accentuated Scottish accent. It’s so strangely accentuated, it doesn’t sound Scottish at all. I put it down to not being Scottish, rather than being a nationalist.

  39. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    Yet another tendentious Scotsman publication 02/04/2013:
    “Would an independent Scotland’s finances add up”;
    under the guise of a CPPR report led by John McLaren. I provide the link for reference, but would be glad if someone can make a cached version of it; Rev, feel free to edit out the link once a cached version is available on this thread.
    To get a feel for McLaren’s leanings, check out his employment history on http://www.gla.ac.uk/schools/socialpolitical/cppr/whoweare/ ; highlights include

     1999-2001 Special Adviser in the Policy Unit of the Scottish Executive for the First Minister of Scotland
    1999       Head of Policy Research at the Scottish Labour Party prior to the 1999 election for the Scottish Parliament.
     1989–1998Civil Servant (Economic Adviser at the Scottish Office government department)
     1985–1990Civil Servant (Economic Adviser at H.M. Treasury)

    Little left to the imagination on how McClaren framed the report! ;)
    P.S. The article claims to have commissioned a similar report on the claims of BitterTogother; whose going to take a bet that this does not all come out smelling of roses!

  40. HandandShrimp says:

    You are playing into their hands.
    a supporter
     
    I am not sure those on the No side whom I have engaged over the last few years feel that way nor do those on our side who are familar with my approach. So if it is all the same to you I will stick with what I do best and you to your favoured approach. There are many fronts in this battle and we all have a part to play.  

  41. Cath says:

    That cartoons is deeply offensive and abusive. Who can it be reported to?

  42. Jimbo says:

    @ Mac, 11.36 am
     
    If a crime is considered serious enough the procurator fiscal can order, or, acting on their own initiative the police can carry out, an investigation into that crime without the need of a complainant.
     
    Even if the victim does not want to complain, the crime can still be investigated without their consent. If I was the Justice Minister I would be demanding that this serious allegation be looked into.

  43. @Bugger (The Panda)
    I went to a local Yes group meeting last night and it was full of energy and plans. I think in order to make this happen we need to all get involved at a local level, rather than wait for leadership from above. On a national level, where YesScotland are, the traffic is all to the no campaign. Local campaigns are the way right now. From the ground up, we can win.

  44. Desimond says:

    if you stopped people on the street,  9 out of 10 ( and im being generous here)  wouldnt know who Susan Calman is or what a CyberNat is either. Total non story going nowhere. In the words of Rocky Balbao “is that all you got?, Is that all you got?”
     

  45. DougtheDug says:

    Susan Calman: Death threats for independence satire
     
    Appears to be back on the Scotsman.
     
    There’s an interesting comment BLT from someone called “Administrator”. No idea of it’s really the administrator or if it’s true though.
     
    Administrator
    11:07 AM on 02/05/2013
    Prjohn58 the article published yesterday was deemed subjudicial and likely to prejudice the live police enquiry into claims of abuse. Consequently it was replaced. The time of publication is clear so obviously comments prior to that refer to an earlier piece. Some comments have been removed as part of the ongoing police investigation.

  46. Norsewarrior says:

    “That cartoons is deeply offensive and abusive. Who can it be reported to?”

    Don’t be silly, its a harmless cartoon.

    Reporting and complaining and getting offended by cartoons is playing right into the unionists hands – they’ll be able to portray us even more as humourless fanatics, like the Islamic fanatics who issued a fatwa against that Danish cartoonist.

  47. Cath says:

    Oh excellent. So someone has reported it to the police?
     
    Good. If the claims of death threats are genuine, the person responsible should be dealt with. Perhaps if more death threats were reported to police, they might not be so common.
    If they’re not genuine, will someone be done for wasting police time?

  48. Chic McGregor says:

    Desimond says:
    2 May, 2013 at 10:52 am

    The Scotsman…what will it be called after Independence “Grumpy McGripe”
     
     
     
     
    Four letters too many in that last word.

  49. Cath says:

    “Don’t be silly, its a harmless cartoon.”
     
    No, it isn’t. It is black propaganda designed to demonise an entire section of people simply for holding an opinion. It is the same kind of “abuse” Calman complained about – an attempt to shut down debate. As such, it’s highly offensive, and should be whatever side of the debate you’re on.

  50. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Don’t be silly, its a harmless cartoon. “

    “Harmless” is debateable. But nobody said “harmful”, so why are you hairsplitting over that term rather than the ones that were actually used (entirely accurately) – “offensive and abusive”?

    If you’re not a troll, you’re doing an increasingly compelling impression of one, and having gone to considerable effort to give you a chance to contribute constructively, I’m getting very weary of it.

  51. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    ““Would an independent Scotland’s finances add up”;
    under the guise of a CPPR report led by John McLaren. “

    Ooh, thanks for the reminder. Saw that appalling piece of drivel in the digital edition and meant to do something on it.

  52. Norsewarrior says:

    “No, it isn’t. It is black propaganda designed to demonise an entire section of people simply for holding an opinion”

    Dear me, this is exactly the kind of rabidly over-the-top humourless indignant attitude that the cartoon is poking fun at, and that we need to be avoiding, not encouraging! 

    The cartoon is ‘demonising’ those who can’t stomach any satire or humour about Scotland or independence – by attacking the cartoon and claiming it is ‘black propaganda’ you are merely becoming one of those people yourself and walking right into the hands of the unionists! 

    Leave attacking cartoons to the religious fanatics, we need to be showing that we are an open inclusive group that allows freedom of speech (and freedom to draw) even if its poking mild fun at us. 

  53. Roddy Macdonald says:

    I see the original article has now reappeared in the original place but marked a published on 2 May at 11:36.  I’ve copied the text into my FB note on the matter in case it disappears again.
    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/susan-calman-death-threats-for-independence-satire-1-2914670

  54. Norsewarrior says:

    ““Harmless” is debateable. But nobody said “harmful”, so why are you hairsplitting over that term rather than the ones that were actually used (entirely accurately) – “offensive and abusive”?”

    I’m not. I’m saying that the cartoon isn’t offensive or abusive but that its harmless.

    No one is going to be encouraged to vote one way or the other by a silly cartoon.

    Working ourselves up into a righteous indignant fury about a cartoon is utterly pointless and, if anything, is playing right into the hands of those unionists who want to portray us as a humourless group of fanatics who can’t stomach any satire or humour at our expense. 

  55. cirsium says:

    “Anyone with a passing knowledge of Streicher’s ‘Der Sturmer’ may have views on the genre of ‘cartoon’ the above represents..”
    Training Day, “Der Sturmer” came into my mind as well when I saw that cartoon.

  56. HandandShrimp says:

    Cath
     
    Political cartoons reflect the political leanings of a newspaper. The Tories detest Steve Bell in Guardian with his condom headed Cameron. The Scotsman detests the SNP.
    The cartoon is heavy handed, not particularly funny and it perpetuates an untruth, but then so do most of the Scotsman’s editorials. It is propaganda but that is what newspapers do. They will not retract it but not all that many people read the Scotsman any more. A good rebutal cartoon spread via Facebook will reach just as many people if not more. There was a day when the newspapers held sway and the public had little voice. Now newspapers are just one voice amongst many. It is no coincidence that the Scotsman is reporting on a blogosphere spat rather than leading the news. Share BBC Scotlanshire cartoons, lets see how good the Unionist sense of humour is. They tried pretty hard to shut down the Youtube humorous take on their myths so I’m guessing it isn’t all that robust..

  57. Norsewarrior says:

    “Share BBC Scotlanshire cartoons, lets see how good the Unionist sense of humour is”

    Exactly. Getting worked up about a cartoon is utterly pointless and merely plays into the hands of the unionists. 
    As you say, the answer is do share or draw our own cartoons satirising and poking fun at the unionists. 

  58. Jiggsbro says:

    It is the same kind of “abuse” Calman complained about
     
    It’s slightly different, in that it definitely exists.

  59. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    @Training Day
    Greatly informative post. I had never heard of Julius Streicher nor the publication Der Stürmer, which he founded. Its been highly informative to peruse some of his work; well documented by Calvin College at 

    http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/sturm28.htm
    http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/sturmer.htm

    There is also a detailed critical review of Der Sturmer by Randall Bytwerk titled “A Fierce and Filthy Rag”. 

    http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/faculty/streich3.htm

    YES should become a Clarion Cry against the shameful behaviour of UKplc as it deceives and misleads to maintain “its position of influence in the world”; this euphemistic phrase, peddled by the MSM, has to be recast into something more appropriate. Any takers?

  60. Jimbo says:

    Good point, HandandShrimp.
     
    A good rebuttal cartoon posted here would be seen by a great many more than those who will see the Scotsman’s merde.
     
     

  61. Roddy Macdonald says:

    Sorry, not the original. The Administrator has posted in the comments: “The edited version of this story has now bee reposted. The Hyslop story is now available as a separate thread. Thank you for your patience. The edit was required for legal reasons due to an ongoing criminal investigation.”
    No mention in the article though that police are investigating.  Given that the  comments quoted in the original article were hardly abusive and were lifted from here http://wingsoverscotland.com/have-we-got-friends-for-you/ and, despite searching the web, FB and Twitter, everyone who tried drew a blank, I wonder if Ms Calman’s publicity stunt will result in charges, either for the alleged, elusive death threatener or for wasting police time?

  62. Bill C says:

    @Training Day – “Anyone with a passing knowledge of Streicher’s ‘Der Sturmer’ may have views on the genre of ‘cartoon’ the above represents..” 
    Unfortunately you are spot on.  I have studied the rise and fall of the Third Reich as a hobby for many years and have become increasingly concerned at the way the media in Scotland seem to be adopting many of the methods of Goebbels and his gang.  This cartoon is a prime example, sub humans/aliens/monsters (Jews, socialists, communists etc) i.e. the enemy chasing the flaxen haired maiden/blue eyed children. The other much more subtle (well perhaps not) tactic is the constant, subliminal drip feed from the BBC. The constant ‘warnings’ on independence, the combative interrupting interviews, the slanted anti-independence ‘news’ reports, the funereal tones from Sally Magnusson when reading ‘warnings’ on independence etc. etc.  All designed to create fear and suspicion of independence.  There are many reasons for wanting independence, escaping an increasingly right wing/fascist UK establishment is just one of them.

  63. Training Day says:

    O/T
    Dear God, I had to switch off FMQs half way through as it was truly diabolical.  The anguished monotony of Lamont’s diatribes, the drooling repetition of exactly the same points by Davidson, and the utter, utter poverty of imagination of these no marks in Better Together who serve no other function but to run down Scotland and its people’s capabilities.
     
    Shocking.
     

  64. Morag says:

    That’s an interseting one.  If she publicises a second-hand story that someone issued a death threat against her, without herself seeing the death threat, and then people get all worked up about this and the police become involved, and then it turns out that there never was a deaht threat, who has actually wasted the police time?

  65. a supporter says:

    HandandShrimp at  2 May, 2013 at 12:35 pm
     

    You are definitely not a dry.

  66. ianbrotherhood says:

     
    Here’s where Lamont got the line of attack for today’s FMQs-
     
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWsvzko1fkY
     
    Johann Ottawan – got a ring to it, eh?

  67. scottish_skier says:

    Ooh, Comres asked a good question their poll.

    At the next Election due in 2015, the Conservatives should be given the chance by voters of finishing the job of restoring Britain’s economic prospects?

    Agree 44%
    Disagree 46%

    Now given the disagree is split between Labour and Lib (and possibly some UKIP), who’s going to win…
     

  68. HandandShrimp says:

    Morag
     
    Susan Calman, Brian Wilson and the Scotsman…in no particular order (although Wilson and the Scotsman will blame Calman if it looks like it is going pear shaped)
     
     

  69. benarmine says:

    The cartoonist does seem to have a few issues. I wouldn’t want to see inside their head or listen to what came out of their mouth. Very,very unpleasant I’d imagine, and I’m not kidding.

  70. Cath says:

    “The cartoon is ‘demonising’ those who can’t stomach any satire or humour about Scotland or independence –”
     
    No it isn’t. Having created a myth based on zero evidence, designed to demonise a whole group of people, they have now gone one step further and created black propaganda to further that. It’s highly offensive and, as I said, should be seen that way by those on the other side too.
     
    I wouldn’t want to create images that demonised those currently on the no side in that kind of way, as I’d find that equally as offensive.

  71. muttley79 says:

    BBC Radio Scotland presenter saying that Calman had a death threat, and a lot of abuse at the moment.

  72. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I’m not. I’m saying that the cartoon isn’t offensive or abusive but that its harmless.”

    Nobody said it was “harmful”, so the question remains: why are you attacking a straw man?

    Whether YOU’RE personally offended or not, it absolutely IS offensive and abusive, for the reasons noted by other posters in reference to Der Sturmer. Nobody has “worked themselves up into a righteous indignant fury” about it, merely calmly observed its clearly abusive intent. Call this a warning: no more straw men.

  73. G. Campbell says:

    Stuart Cosgrove talking sense about the Susan Calman story on Radio Scotland just now. Should be on iplayer later.

  74. HighlandMartin says:

    @ Roddy…
     
    I fear the only charges possible could be The Scotsman being charged under mislabelling laws claiming to be a newspaper or Ms Calman fraudulently claiming to be funny. 
     
    How is my satire coming on?

  75. ianbrotherhood says:

     
    @Cath-
     
    Agreed.
     
    Anyone who truly believes this cartoon is ‘harmless’ hasn’t really looked at it – the main focal point (if you set any store by the ‘Golden Mean’ etc) is an empty noose, and the noose just happens to be drawn in such a way that it resembles the SNP logo.
     
    (You can see that NW – can’t you?)

  76. Cath says:

    “There are many reasons for wanting independence, escaping an increasingly right wing/fascist UK establishment is just one of them.”
     
    Quite. I have to say, from being not really pro-indy just a year ago and more supportive of federalism, I’ve shot past pro-independence and into “we need out ASAP and if folk vote no next year I’m off.” So from that point of view perhaps we shouldn’t complain about the amount of abuse and unfounded accusations we’re taking for merely holding an opinion.

  77. muttley79 says:

    @G Campbell
     
    Yes, Stuart Cosgrove was very good.

  78. G. Campbell says:

    What follows is an example of the shocking levels of cybernat/cyber-nat abuse which journalists have to put up with. This was posted on Magnus Gardham’s “Canavan and Salmond at odds over creation of new currency” story yesterday morning. I took a copy of it as I knew it wouldn’t last long.

    AdamDavidsonGlasgow
    Shock horror! Two independence supporters have a different opinion, stop the presses! Not exactly big news.

    Last night this article made the point that Canavan preferred our own currency but accepted the concept of starting off with using the pound. This important qualification has now been removed. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

    Interestingly unflattering photo of wee Eck. Magnus is back with a vengeance.

    I’ve just looked at the page again and this disgusting smear has now been removed. Well done, Herald moderators.

  79. Mac says:

     
    So the death threats are being investigated by the police. That is excellent news. There is no way such threats can be ignored, it is far too serious.  

  80. Jiggsbro says:

    As you say, the answer is to share or draw our own cartoons satirising and poking fun at the unionists.
     
    On you go then, norsewarrior. I’m sure the Rev will be happy to publish your work.

  81. Tamson says:

    Mags Curran’s comment about not regretting it if Salmond was run over by a bus – how close to a death threat was that?

  82. Morag says:

    Tamson, not very close at all, if you think about it.

  83. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “On you go then, norsewarrior. I’m sure the Rev will be happy to publish your work.”

    We publish quite a few cartoons already, and there are more in the pipeline. Standing by for submissions!

  84. Norsewarrior says:

    “they have now gone one step further and created black propaganda to further that. It’s highly offensive”

    Its only offensive to anyone who gets offended by mild satire and humour being made at the expense of the independence movement or Scotland in general – that’s the target group that the cartoon is poking fun at. 

    As I said, the answer is to draw our own cartoons satirising and poking fun at ‘better together’ and the unionists, not to get worked up into a fury of righteous indignation at a silly cartoon. If you want to get worked up there are far more valid things that the unionists do to get worked up about than a cartoon. 

    Claiming a cartoon is ‘black propaganda’ and ‘highly offensive’ does nothing but play right into the hands of those unionists who want to portray us alongside the religious fanatics who get offended at cartoons of their prophets. 

  85. ianbrotherhood says:

     
    @Jiggsbro-
     
    I’m sure NW will be up for the challenge, especially as the cartoon in question featured a character wearing a horned helmet.
     
    It’ll be interesting to see if he can incorporate a gallows, lynch-mob, and a prominent SNP/Yes name, with selected BT Big Beasts watching from the sidelines.
     
    Nae borra tae Norsey!! 

  86. Cath says:

    Perhaps we should also start referring all death threats we see on Twitter towards Salmond. After all, they are far too serious to be ignored. It’ll keep the new police force busy anyway.

  87. Jimbo says:

    “Whether YOU’RE personally offended or not, it absolutely IS offensive and abusive, for the reasons noted by other posters in reference to Der Sturmer.”
     
    Yes indeed. This cartoon could just as easily have been a straight lift from one of Streicher’s Der Sturmer cartoons. The use of mutants, a few midifications here and there, and the replacing of the Star of David for the SNP symbol (as the noose) and, hey presto, it’s done.
     
    Maybe it’s just a matter of time before we get the Der Sturmer type pornographic cartoons and the doctored photographs of independentistas abusing women.
     
     

  88. Marcia says:

    It is good to see that the National Collective’s fundraising target has just been exceeded.

  89. Douglas Gregory says:

    Ok, just had half a bottle of wine (posting from Australia so it’s night time)…….
     
    Thank, thank, thank, thank, thank, thank f&*k someone is keeping a record of what ‘they’ are getting up to. 
     
    Thank you Wings.

  90. ianbrotherhood says:

     
    PS
     
    Scratch that thought…he’s clearly going for a red card…quelle dommage

  91. Craig P says:

    Douglas, you must be one of those not dry, not wet, but ‘drouthy’ nats :)

  92. Mac says:

     
    I understand that BBC Radio Scotland have repeated this lunch time the death threat claims.
     
    So are these death threats actually being investigated by police? 

  93. Dan Simmie says:

    Did a better together web site not post Frankie Boyle’s home address and suggest he should get a visit. Now I’m sure it wasn’t an official NO campaign policy to visit prominent YES supporters but their glasshouse must be bereft of windows.
    As for this Calman claim.Like many I’d never heard of this woman until today.If she has had death threats then let the police do their job and get to the bottom of it.If it turns out to be a false claim then yet again they should do their jobs.

  94. Iain says:

    scottish_skier says:
    2 May, 2013 at 12:48 pm
    ‘Ooh, Comres asked a good question their poll.
    At the next Election due in 2015, the Conservatives should be given the chance by voters of finishing the job of restoring Britain’s economic prospects?
    Agree 44%
    Disagree 46%’
     
    Interestingly the split for England and Wales alone is Agree 46%; Disagree 44%. DK 10%, a fairly big pointer to what the differentiation is on the Scotland sub sample.

  95. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    Just sent a post on MI5/MI6 and their infiltration of the media which disappeared! Strange times … I’ll try a again later. For a taster though, you might be interested to know that the “BBC asked MI5 to vet Pacifist Staff”. Sounds like a parody, but sadly not!
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2001/nov/14/bbc.research
     
     
     

  96. Cath says:

    “Douglas, you must be one of those not dry, not wet, but ‘drouthy’ nats ”
     
    PERPETUATING STEREOTYPES!!!!!!! ;-)

  97. HandandShrimp says:

    Ian
     
    The cartoon reflects beautifully exactly where the heart of the Scotsman lies. Hangman’s noose (a la Sun in 2007) Salmond looking like one of the Kim Il bods and independence supporters portrayed as sub-human untermensch. It should be kept to remind everyone supporting an independent Scotland exactly what we are fighting against.
    Illegitimi non carborundum :)
     
     
      

  98. Macart says:

    Forgive me, not really a Scotsman reader here.

    So what we have is a title running a collection of graphic articles with no solid evidence in support? A collection of articles which generalises and attacks online yes campaigners, colouring them all deranged cyber stalkers. Aaaaaand basically they’ve then provided proof for their own groundless and deranged assault upon online YES campaigners. Minus the death threats of course, but still victimisation by any stretch.
     
    Am I missing something? 

  99. ianbrotherhood says:

     
    @HandandShrimp-
     
    Kin right.
     
    And it’s bogus of NW or anyone else to dismiss this type of thing as harmless rib-poking – it’s vicious, provocative, and deliberate.
     
    Cartoonists are talented, ultra-savvy people who guard their niche in MSM while seeing off intense competition over many many years – they put a great deal of thought into what they do. It’s not just dashed-off at the last minute to fill some space, and we can be quite sure that no cartoonist will ever sign an image whose message and target they don’t fully understand.
     
    The above is right up there with Bell’s ‘Salmond’ – media students of the future will surely become very familiar with both.

  100. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “As I said, the answer is to draw our own cartoons satirising and poking fun at ‘better together’ and the unionists, not to get worked up into a fury of righteous indignation at a silly cartoon.”

    You’re really testing my patience now.

  101. HighlandMartin says:

    @Macart…
     
    It didn’t help with the ‘Yes’ with their size 5s in today’s issue.  By all means show contempt for ‘all’ online numpties but to allow it to be pinned onto the coat tails of a dodgy story just fluffs up the original story.  If Yes Scotland do have a Comms dept, they should of come out on both points, dismissing all numpties and encouraging the authories to look into the ‘death threats’. 
     

  102. Chic McGregor says:

    Could this not be another smokescreen to deflect from the apparent cyber ID theft shenanigans which have been going on this week?
     
    I have had what I believe to be unsolicited Facebook and twitter feeds from BT and I believe others have had unsolicited texts and emails as well.    How are they getting email info?  Who is doing it?  Is it legal?
     
    I remember reading  that BT  have  recently hired Obama’s successful cyber team, could that be connected?
     
    Sadly, I fear we cannot presume that answers to such questions will be forthcoming from the msm.
     

  103. EdinScot says:

    Events are taking a deeply sinister turn down at the hootsman.  This offensive cartoon follows in the footsteps of their outrageous nazifying of the Saltire which also caused huge uproar.  Who’d want to reside in the black abyss those responsible and supportive of such actions inhabit.  What a vile and ugly head space to be in.  Something is seriously wrong with those Unionists as they get more desperate as each day passes.  Are their private polls worse for them than they are letting on…It makes you wonder when you see the exteme lengths they are going to especially with september 2014 still a way off. 
     
    Having been used to having a stranglehold over Scotland, the Unionists’ grip has now loosened dramatically with the Indpenedence support and the public at large getting full access to the facts, thanks to the internet and social media, kept from us for so long and in so doing we are able to combat their misinformation, lies and half truths and hell… the more rabid Britnats are becoming almost hysterical in trying to shut us up and hope we just go away and hence close all debate down with bully boy tactics.  The more  the Susan Calmans  and the Hootsmans make derogatory statements about Scots and Scotland the more people  will call them out and we have the means to share this story with the masses.  A wee note to the Hootsman and all, this is only going to go one way and it aint yours.
     
    Vote YES to escape the Unionist nuthouse.

  104. scottish_skier says:

    I’m not sure why people think cyber team obama is the way forward (if that’s even what’s happening). He got a lower share of the vote in 2012 than he got in 2008.
    That’s not a winning formula. You want your support to rise, not drop.
    And anyway, BT’s social media attempts so far are a failure. Go look for stats on it and you’ll see why.

  105. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    @ianbrotherhood
    Circa media students of the future, I go further and invite media students to put together a portfolio of those cartoons which serve as propaganda against Independence/SNP; a useful timeline would be since the SNP landslide victory of 2011. Also, for those with an eye to history, start trolling through the newspaper archives in the build up the stolen Scottish Devolution Referendum of 1979;
    Yes: 51.6
    No: 48.4
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_devolution_referendum,_1979
     

  106. Bobby Mckail says:

    This is clearly the “Scotsman” grabbing whatever circumstantial “evidence” (this being hearsay from the complainer ) in isolation with no hard evidence whatsoever and who hadn’t even seen any abuse (real or other wise) herself. The cartoon is just to provoke (inflame) to try and get a reaction from anyone who supports #YesScotland whether that be on Facebook, Twitter, Wings.
    I’m pretty proud of 99% of all the people, forums, blogs elsewhere who are part of Yes movement in the main are pretty reasonable people. I’m also glad we Wings over Scotland to hold the Media to account over it’s blatant black propaganda. Smearing whole movements as Fascists with absolutely no justification to back up that statement to say least is verging on Munchhausen by Proxy-ish
     
     
     

  107. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    @Chic McGregor @Scottish Skier
    Poster something on Obama’s Blue State Digital operation on a previous thread, but perhaps worth repeating some of that here, and adding some updates. 
    The Update.
    Also, if you want to get a feel for the approach of Blue State Digitall’s efforts with BitterTogetehr, there is no better place to look than Harper Reid, the Obamoa’s Chief Scientific Officer for his 2012 presidential campaign, who just gave an interview on Newsnight on the 30th of April; see
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22355364
    Repeated Material: useful for a legal angle
    Beyond a shadow of a doubt, “Blue State Digital” is behind this BitterTogether texting campaign. This is part of a sophisticated “DATA MINING” and “Machine Learning” approach headed up by Computer Scientists. 
     
    If there is a legal way to combat this, suggestions so far being Telecommunicati ons Act, or a Subject Access Request (SAR) under the Data Protection Act, it is imperative that those who can should pursue this vigorously*
     
    As I recall, @ianbrotherhood, indicated that he was looking into this.
    True? Hopefully, a concerted effort can be mounted to tackle any Privacy violations of BitterTogether.
     
    http://ico.org.uk/for_the_public/personal_information
     
    *It is a scientifically measurable fact, that Blue State Digital’s Maching Learning/Data Mining Approach to the recent US Presidential election was instrumental in the outcome. 
     
     
     

  108. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    @scottish_skier
    Obama got a lower share of the vote, but as I recall, the total number of people that voted for him in 2012 was greater than in 2008. THAT was their strategy! They knew they had lost people from 2008, so they simply made sure that they targeted those who hadn’t voted in 2008 and would vote Obama, and did everything to get them to the polling booth on election day.  This is how they defeated the Republican’s who had a highly motivated base; fueled by the propaganda pumped out by Fox News, Rush Limbaugh etc…

  109. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    @EdinScot
    Excellent post. Germane in this context is the critical review of “Der Sturmer” by Randall Bytwerk titled
    A Fierce and Filthy Rag”. 
    History has a habit for repeating itself. Fools and knaves were ever thus!

  110. Jiggsbro says:

    Something is seriously wrong with those Unionists as they get more desperate as each day passes.  Are their private polls worse for them than they are letting on
     
    I’d caution against believing that we must be winning because they’re getting so desperate. We may well be winning. That may well be why they’re getting so desperate. But I believe they’re capable of being this desperate, offensive and divisive simply because they value the prize highly enough to allow the end to justify the means. In any event, they won’t be happy with a narrow win. They’ll want to see us crushed, so that there’s no repeat of this ‘unpleasantness’ and no need to pacify a substantial minority with further devolution. They’ll want to make voting ‘Yes’ almost unthinkable to the average voter. And caricaturing ‘Yes’ voters as dangerous extremists is a very good way of achieving that.

  111. scottish_skier says:

    @Amadeus

    Well this data must be wrong then:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_elections_by_popular_vote_margin

    That’s 3.6 million less votes on the same turnout.

    Likewise for these.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2008

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2012

    Seems to me his total votes went down. Would not be unusual going into a second term.

  112. scottish_skier says:

    Also, I’d venture to suggest – from what I’ve seen – when BT send out one of their spam texts, they generate as much or more interest in YesScotland as they do BT. I don’t think that was the aim.

    The law of unintended consequences.

  113. Taranaich says:

    So one Scottish comedian has what is alleged to be his personal address published publicly because of his support for Scottish independence, with a suggestion for someone to “pay the c*** a visit,” which is a very clear threat to the comedian’s personal safety and unequivocal abuse of his privacy. As far as I can tell, absolutely no newspaper deems this newsworthy.
     
    Another Scottish comedian claims to be suffering abuse because of her comments on the referendum. Said abuse is not quoted, or cited, or proven to actually exist, at least in the public domain. At least one newspaper deems this newsworthy for no less than four articles, with an outpouring of support for the comedian in her struggles against this alleged abuse and threat which is remarkably difficult to find evidence of.
     
    Is that about right?

  114. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    AmadeusMinkowski says:
     
    2 May, 2013 at 2:34 pm
     
     
    I was a “victim” almost certainly of the data mining by this organisation.
     
    It was during Obama’s first run at the Presidency and a friend sent me link to a NASA site for a probe to Mars. The site invited people to have their name “inscribed” on a CD which would be left on the Martian surface so that you had been a virtual visitor to Mars.
     
    I used my then current nom de plume Faux Cu. Say it lound and repeat it several times quickly.
     
    I nominated my ex-wife as the extra terrestial and she subsequently landed on Mars and stayed forever more on the distant planet.
     
    Image my surprise when some months later I started receiving e-mails from Mr Obama himself urging me to date to his election fund.
     
    The mails were addressed to Dear Faux Cu.
     
    It is the only time I have used that nom de plume in a US context as it was reserved for the Herald blogs until they found out how to pronounce it and banned me.
     
    So, yes this organisation could well be using all sorts of trickery to garner peoples’ private e-mail addresses without obeying the niceties of informing them that this was happening and for what reason.

  115. Bill C says:

    I think most of us on here are agreed that this so called cartoon is offensive and fascist in its tone. It can justifiably be compared with the antisemitic caricatures which depicted Jews as ugly characters with exaggerated facial features and misshapen bodies published in the Nazi weekly tabloid Der Stummer.  It could also be argued that it might provoke people into violence against others, after all much of the Nazi propaganda machine was designed to wind up ordinary Germans into taking action against their fellow citizens. The ‘Night of Broken Glass’ is a perfect example of how the cartoons in Der Sturmer resulted in dreadful acts of viloence against the Jewish community. 
    I share others concern on here on the way the Scotsman is developing. Only a few weeks ago we had the desecration of the Saltire with a Swastika, now this.
    It seems the ‘Bitter Together’ are determined to live up to their nickname. We know that Lamont, Darling and Co. have some strange bedfellows, the Orange Order, the Scottish Defence League and the BNP to name but three. However do the leaders of so called democratic parties in this country really want to be associated with news publications, cartoons and organsiations which are to all intents and purposes on the very extreme of right wing politics? ( and that is being generous). I wonder?

  116. Norsewarrior says:

    “You’re really testing my patience now.”

    So let me get this straight, I’m not allowed to suggest that there are far worse things that the unionists do/have done to get angry and worked up about than that silly cartoon?! And that I believe getting worked up about a cartoon is pointless and counter-productive?

    Seriously? 

  117. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “So let me get this straight, I’m not allowed to suggest that there are far worse things that the unionists do/have done to get angry and worked up about than that silly cartoon?!”

    Yes you are. Just not to repeat it over and over again. We heard you the first time, and constantly going back to an issue as if nobody’s addressed it is a dead giveaway for trolls. We clear?

  118. Norsewarrior says:

    “I think most of us on here are agreed that this so called cartoon is offensive and fascist in its tone. It can justifiably be compared with the antisemitic caricatures which depicted Jews as ugly characters with exaggerated facial features”

    But its that cartoonists style to draw characters looking ugly with exaggerated facial features! Look at his cartoon from 26/4/13 showing Miliband with a massive mouth and set of teeth and Cameron with a huge forehead. Or any of his cartoons of Lamont showing her with a massive head. Or his cartoon of the people rejoicing at Thatcher’s death, who look just as misshapen and weird as the characters in the above cartoon.

    I honestly think this fury at a cartoon is counter-productive and playing right into the unionists’ hands.

  119. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    @scottish_skier
    It was the total voter turnout that was slightly larger in 2012 US presidential election:

    Percentage of Voter Turnout

    2012 57.50%

    2008 57.48%

    That was the unexpected feature of the election, since the enthusiasm factor of 2008 on  the Democrat side had significantly dissipated by election day on Nov. 2011. Thanks for the correction, and also the links to the hard data.
     

  120. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    @ Bill C
    Agreed. Excellent post. My previous posts, and those of others, on this thread speak directly to the methods of Der Stummer. There are also some excellent resources and links, if you wanted a refresher on the propaganda playbook that the Scotsman is using. Your reference to the violence generated by sustained propaganda of this type is a point that must be highlighted, again and again. PUBLIC AWARENESS of these methods must be increased, and thereby their impact will be diminished.

  121. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    Thought this definition might be germaine!
    Autism
    noun
    A mental condition, present from early childhood, characterized by great difficulty in communicating and forming relationships with other people and in using language and abstract concepts.

  122. scottish_skier says:

    @Amadeus

    Nae bother. I have heard a bit about how Obama had a supposedly super media team and that’s what won it. I just found that a bit odd given the stats.

    Who knows, without his new media stuff he may have done a lot worse. Either way, his total votes and vote share went down, even though the turnout was fractionally higher. To me that doesn’t provide evidence for the widely talked about social media boost he’s supposed to have had.

  123. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    @Taranaich
    Right on the money. Perhaps you should go further and draft a letter to the police requesting that they look into this! :)
    You might point out that they have apparently taken on a case that  is without apparent evidence, and so is certainly not prima facie.

  124. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    @scottish_skier
    My insights here come from discussion with those who have had direct contact and knowledge of Harry ReidChief Scientific Officer for his 2012 presidential campaign
    So, I may not be doing justice to the argument that the Machine Learning technology developed by Harry Reid were determining in the US election; one important concept that captures the value of the technology is that of a force multiplier within a grass roots campaign. I strongly recommend that you watch Harry Reid’s 10 minute interview on Newsnight on the 30th of April
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22355364

  125. Bill C says:

    @Norsewarrior – You miss the point completely.  This cartoon depicts nationalists as some kind of evil, subhuman monsters ready to lynch anyone who says no.  All politicians suffer at the hands of cartoonists but their personal safety is not usually put at risk.  To depict nationalists as a subhuman lynch mob creates the kind of political tension, that some in Scotland might interpret as a green light to go and attack the nationalist enemy.  

  126. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    @Bugger (the Panda) 
    Love the “Dear Faux Cu” anecdote. Don’t forget, that here you can make a subject access request (SAR) if BitterTogether get in touch you! 
    http://ico.org.uk/for_the_public/personal_information
    It would be even better if you could get a “Faux Cu” type case going with them! :)

  127. Norsewarrior says:

    “Norsewarrior – You miss the point completely”

    I’m afraid I’m not allowed to repeat my views on the cartoon even if someone like you directly questions me on them, so I can only refer to my previous posts on the subject.

  128. HandandShrimp says:

    Norsewarrior
     
    I agree that cartoonists specialise in caricature to get their point across. The issue isn’t so much the cartoon, independence supporters are unlikely to get pre-Raphaelite treatment in a Scotsman cartoon, but the point itself. Was there a blog? Were there death threats? Four articles and a cartoon about something that may not actually have happened is just plain weird. If it turns out that Calman was misinformed (by a Scotsman journalist perhaps) and none of this happened then the No campaign has indulged in genuine and pretty nasty black propaganda. Calman then being what? the naive patsy or willing participant?  

  129. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    @Bill C
    the points you are making to NorseWarior’s “counter-productive” claims have all been make by the Rev and others; as you will see from the above thread, the Rev has already been drawn into dissipating excessive energy on this front with NorseWarior.
    I recommend we all remove the oxygen from this needless repetition by not engaging further.

  130. Norsewarrior says:

    “Was there a blog? Were there death threats? Four articles and a cartoon about something that may not actually have happened is just plain weird”

    I agree. As far as I understand it there is no evidence that any death threats took place, so you’re right to question the Scotsman writing four articles on the subject – that should be what we are addressing and questioning, not the cartoon. 

    Look at it this way – are the general public and undecided voters likely to look on us favourably if we’re complaining and getting angry about a cartoon, which is basically nothing more than a simplied humorous drawing? 

    Anger and rage at cartoons is associated with religious fanatics – obviously we do not want to give the unionists a chance to place us in such a bracket.

    By all means we should be questioning and criticising all these articles on the alleged abuse, but my personal opinion is that it isn’t a wise strategy to get so worked up about the cartoon.

    And that’s the last time I’ll mention the subject.
     

  131. orkers says:

    Norsewarrior
    I’m a Rangers Supporter and Stu is way nicer to me than he is too you.
    He’s justified with you, because as he says, you are acting like a troll.
    I don’t ……………and thats the secret to a happy life on this blog.

  132. Yesitis says:

    Norsewarrior
    Anger and rage at cartoons is associated with religious fanatics – obviously we do not want to give the unionists a chance to place us in such a bracket.
     
    That`s four times, in four separate posts, you`ve mentioned Religious fanatics.
     

  133. Patrick Roden says:

    @ norsewarrior, a friendly bit of advice mate, you always seem to support those that are attacking the independence movement. If you made comments on one or two posts that did not agree with others/revs opinion then you would be fine, but you always always always adopt the inti SNP stance, or defend the anti independence brigade, and you always always always, use language that suggests that people on here are, fanatical. hate filled, disgusting, etc etc,
    Just stop attacking us SNP or independence supporters and you will find this site a far more friendly place to post.
    Please don’t respond to this post with your usual ‘so if someone doesn’t toe the SNP line, that whatever they say, must be agreed and  is right all the time bla bla bla,’….  that you seem to specialise in on here.
    I’m completely bored with your posts.
     

  134. Bill C says:

    @Amadeus – Agreed, to be honest, I was in two minds whether to take the bait, but you are right, no point in wasting energy.

  135. pa_broon74 says:

    Singling out criticism of the cartoon in order to draw comparisons with religious fanaticism marks ‘Norsewarrior’ out. There is as much, if not more religious fervour on display with the written word than with cartoons or drawings.
     
    If a person doesn’t know that, they’re a gonk or -and I hate to say it – a troll.
     
     

  136. Patrick Roden says:

    I trully think that the reason Wings and Newsnet etc are hated by the Unionists, isn’t just the kind of articles that challenge the press etc, but the fact that the more negative content acts as a counterbalance to the Yes campaigns postive campaign.
     This has the enhancing effect of people who are attracted to a positive vision being attracted to the Yes campaign directly, but people who are motivated more by a fear of the negative, being convinced more by sites like ‘Wings’
    This is why the No’s are so determined to demonise what they call the ‘cybernats’ and why they have began to put so much effort into closing down, or discrediting the online Yes bloggers.
    So people who feel that the SNP/Yes campaign is failing need to hold fire and  get involved in is promoting wings etc.
    The Yes campaign is working perfectly.
    The Wings type arm of the independence campaign, is working perfectly.
    It will be alright on the night ;-)

  137. Jim Mitchell says:

    Hi all,
    The Cartoon, well now we know what the unionists mean when they talk about satire!
    As for the Scotsman in general, although it’s sadly true that it’s been heading down hill for a while now, does anyone else wonder if recent events have the stamp of an ex Daily Record reporter, first name Marcus, on them, whom i notice now works for the Scotsman.
    BTW can anyone tell me when he jumped ships?
    I especially ask as the Record lifted a story from the Scotsman word for word at the weekend.

  138. Bill McLean says:

    Norsewarrior – Punch magazine about a hundred years ago used to portray Irishmen as grotesques with tails. The methodology, much used against many peoples, makes it easier to kill them – they are of course less than human!

  139. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    @Patrick Roden
    Good analysis. You may have mis-typed a sentence of your primary thesis though, so I’ve made up a modified version; bold face indicates insertions
    BitterTogether’s Eternally Negative campaign has an enhancing effect not so much on those people who are attracted to a positive vision, but rather on those people who are motivated more by a fear of the negative. It is they who are more likely to be convinced  by sites like ‘Wings’
    Let me know if that is off track.
    Saor Alba

  140. pa_broon74 says:

    Its all about negativity though.
     
    Better Together have negativity for independence as the only type of arrow in their quiver, meanwhile Yes Scotland have positivity in theirs. Because BT can’t match YS on the actual arguments. Supporters of the union have to find the negative elsewhere, ergo, they invent it, cybernattery is a construct of that.
     
    As if to underline this, BT present arguments coming from sites like Wings, Munguin’s Republic, newsnetscotland and my own inestimable publication (that last one was a joke) as bullying negativity when in fact what they’re doing is correcting the nonsense BT & the union mob are firing from their longbow of doom..
     
    That BT constantly confuse being corrected with abuse; in turn annoys & amuses me.

  141. Cath says:

    ” All politicians suffer at the hands of cartoonists but their personal safety is not usually put at risk. ”
     
    Most people campaigning for independence are not politicians but normal folk. Normal folk without even the benefit of a public platform like that of Calman. Normal folk do not generally suffer at the hands of establishment “satirists”. When the establishment are “satirising” normal folk by demonising them, that is generally referred to by a different name altogether.
     
    I didn’t realise Marcus had jumped ships btw? Has he, or is he now working for all the media in Scotland?

  142. john king says:

    “The Scotsman…what will it be called after Independence “Grumpy McGripe”?”
    it’ll be called DO YOU REMEMBER THE SCOTSMAN

  143. Jim Mitchell says:

    Typing as a dyed in the wool Auld Grouch, (it takes years of practice and suffering to perfect folks), I think I may be right in believing that most of you who post on here are on the young side, (lucky devils), but i can’t be the only old sweat on here, so it will be interesting to see if any of them agree with the following thoughts of mine. I started working for independence back around 1973, (who said start the Hovis music)? and before anyone states the obvious, no it wasn’t success ALL the way, but i reckon that folk like me picked up a few things along the way, like
    1) It was obvious from before the start that most of the BT’s campaigning would be through a very willing media.
    2) that there would be every chance of a donation scandal as it’s par for the course.
    3) that their campaign would consist of fear and smear, based on the fact that in the past they have only had to confuse the situation to have voters in Scotland running in their direction under the better the devil you know rule!
    4) they still don’t seem to realise that time shave changed.
    5) usually the dirtier they get, means the more their frightened, interestingly enough this kind of thing used to happen most the nearer it got to a polling day, so to be this ‘unsettled’ this far out must mean something.
    6) It’s a gut feeling with no science involved, but i can’t help wondering about the actual strength of their campaign, are events being cancelled or poorly attended?  where are their workers?  there has been nothing here in Clackmannanshire worth the mention, the YES campaign held a meeting in the Cochran Hall, Alva last week, it was packed with over two hundred people, they haven’t held any, there is NO sign of cross party work with them, just some old Labour hacks who put  out a leaflet over parts of some streets where i live in Sauchie and a leaflet drop that was going to be held in coalsnaughton, which is much like them working in Labour’s party HQ!
    I am not being complacent and in fact i think that we on here should start comparing notes on what their workers are actually doing and then get the truth out there.
    For instance does anyone know of any cancelled or poorly attended events?
    How many NO campaign workers have you seen in your area?
    Lets find out what if anything has them scared, apart from the loss of power over our lives.
     

  144. Cath says:

    Jim there are photos on their Facebook page of events. They tend to have “campaign weekends” very infrequently. The reason they’re so infrequent is possibly because all the pictures seem to have MPs up from Westminster on them. If they are reliant on Westminster MPs coming up to swell the ranks of local councillors and party workers, they can’t have any particular kind of grassroots campaign.
     
    The other thing I would mention is the Facebook ratio. Among my friends and family – who are a fair cross-section including Labour people – the ratio of Yes:No likes is 16:2 and that’s taking out people I know through the Yes campaign and SNP. Add them back in it’s 32:2!

  145. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “5) usually the dirtier they get, means the more their frightened, interestingly enough this kind of thing used to happen most the nearer it got to a polling day, so to be this ‘unsettled’ this far out must mean something.”

    This is precisely why I’ve been feeling more optimistic with every day of 2013 that’s passed.

  146. YesYesYes says:

    @Jim Mitchell,
     
    Re your sixth point: don’t forget that in the short campaign, Labour, the Tories and Lib Dems will be bussing up thousands of party activists from England to help their cause. Hopefully, though, by that time, Yes will be well ahead in the polls and all that Better Together’s best efforts will achieve is to piss off voters, especially if England win the World Cup. All together now: Inger-land, Inger-land, Inger-land… 

  147. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    @Jim Mitchell 
    Excellent post! Glad to have that personal historical perspective at hand. There have been discussions and input on previous stories about the numbers attending BitterTogether events. Counting with Unionists is a fun one; Rev spotted that BitterTogether were telling porkies about the number of the people in the room. Can you believe that! ;)
    Looking forward to more of your posts.
    Saor Alba
    P.S. 
    Be careful with the BitterTogether facebook page; they register hits, and you don’t want to make the mistake of friending them. That’s certain to lead to all sorts of unsolicited contact. 

  148. Jim Mitchell says:

    AmadeusMinkowski oh no it’s official i am now a part of history, oh well at least it’s Scottish history!
    Re today’s English results, as someone who has an English wife (yes i know that’s another unionist theory up in smoke) and therefore English in’laws down South  who are mostly of the left-wing persuasion, i could almost feel sorry for them and others of the left as they now  do not have a credible left wing party to vote for, almost sorry because like us, it’s up to them to put to right the matters that are wrong.
    But depending on how Scotland reacts and if we are sensible enough to see the implications then this could help us, if not, then God help us!
    Meanwhile, thanks for the posts and lets keep up the info swapping!



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