Wings Over Scotland

@Marcia

Early and often.

ianbrotherhood
 
I think there is a joke about Crimewatch UK and the gallery somewhere. Maybe Ms Calman could help us out here?

That’s another six Knighthoods in the bag following a NO vote in 2014.

Where’s auldbaldies4indy when you need them?

Well, off goes the favoured ‘Royal Game’ – right off the shopping list!

I thought this was only half the story.
 
Isn’t this just the gallery of bald guys BEFORE treatment. Where is the gallery of their photos AFTER treatment. 😆

It is revealing that the BT team uses such language – I for one wasn’t aware that there were different types of Scots: real, semi real, unreal?, half arsed……… 
BT uses exactly the sort of language that they suggest our side uses – the language of identity and division.
Those who identify themselves as ”Real Scots’ are usually those who have a kitschy view of Scotland – that Calman girl for instance is guaranteed to be 100% REAL Scot Double Plus with a cherry on top.
I seem to recall it started back in the early 90’s with the Daily Record producing bumper stickers: ‘I’m a Real Scot from Cambuslang’ – (I’m a brain dead labour voter with a reading age of 8 Brigadoon Twat from insert name of run-down west of Scotland shithole here’)  Fairly handy in there own way though they were.
 

Albert Herring says:
2 May, 2013 at 12:46 am

“Where’s auldbaldies4indy when you need them?”
HERE (hand in air)

Is it still legal to buy a peerage?

Better Together celebrating the act of union today.
Talking to themselves.
Saw the Yougov tables. Crappy wee survey. Probably cost a fiver. Very questionable weighting.
Holyrood voting intention was asked but not released. However  a quick calculation suggest it looked like the last panelbase, i.e. much like May 11. If they asked Y/N, then they didn’t want people to see that either. Simple assumptions and you are looking at ~30% core support for No. Quelle surprise.
What’s hilarious is defence, the EU and currency – all thinks which have been used as sticks to beat Yes with – are all the least important factors for people. Instead it’s stuff like welfare and the economy that’s important.

Hi there,
 
I liked my Hillman Imp.  It was the first new car I owned.  It cost £1,000 on the road with a full tank of petrol.  Mind you, I had to get the sills welded for its first MOT and scrap it at 40,000 miles.  In addition the blue metallic paint started to peel revealing the grey undercoat.  It looked as though it had alopecia.
Still, you’re only young once.

Is there inverse relationship between the amount pledge and residence in Scotland , and therefore eligibility to vote in referendum. Sansom is resident in Sussex and Taylor, well does anybody know where he resides? Based on the money donated, if the relationship described above holds, I suspect he is a non-dom for Tax purposes.
 

The first question I would be asking is what is in it for them but I think most of us here know the answer to that question .
I am sure that Ian Taylor feels right at home amongst that parcel of rogues who are trying to prop up a failed state that invented the concentration camp and used famine as a weapon to keep the natives down .
Take a good hard look at their mug-shots ‘ these are the faces of the type of people who have been selling Scotland out since Scotland was born . 

Excellent article by MacWhirter in the Herald today – it sucks you in a bit at the beginning but then dumps all over the currency nonsense the Unionists have been trying to push.
 
link to heraldscotland.com

Desimond
 
These are perfect people to get your teeth into.
 
They are thinking of voting No for the feeblest of reasons; a Bank Holiday and the Queen’s coupon on your banknotes!
 
Point them in the direction here for a start and feed them lots of positive information while emphasising the major downside of a No vote.
 
Over to you 🙂

 
Desimond says:
 
2 May, 2013 at 9:24 am
 
“Oh holiday next week”
“Yeah, Queens birthday”
“Enjoy it while you can, wont happen after 2014”
“How?”
“Independence, she wont be Queen, shes Queen of United Kingdom, so Scotland leave it, no holiday”
“Awww…I don’t get aw that”
“Ah know, and she wont be on our notes, Bank of England wont let us use the Pound, we will have the Euro”
 
Two points, even if what they were saying wasn’t factually incorrect. 
1) I’ve a sneaking suspicion that we may get an ‘Independence Day’ holiday as a replacement if we vote yes.
2) I’ve had a look at the variety of denominations of notes in my (admittedly not bulging) wallet, and Lizzie doesn’t appear on any of them anyway.
 

In all seriousness, they’re right, who could argue with their description once you’ve heard them in action:
Ian Taylor
link to video.ft.com

Mark Tyndall

MajorBloodnok: “Excellent article by MacWhirter in the Herald today”

It is indeed a good article, and it neatly sums up the frustration many of us within the independence movement have about the SNP’s currency plans: “What annoys Mr Canavan and co is that the Scottish Government seems to want to be more Unionist than Better Together”

Canavan, the Scottish Greens, the Scottish Socialists and many others within the Yes Campaign want Scotland to have our own currency. 

Now, there are good arguments on both sides of the debate – there are benefits to keeping the pound and to getting our own currency. But unfortunately one side of the debate isn’t being listened to and has no chance of getting its way.

NW. But unfortunately one side of the debate isn’t being listened to and has no chance of getting its way.

Erm, yes it does. It’s called a general election. There’s one due following the independence referendum. You need to be careful not to confuse people here.

SNP I imagine will propose to keep the pound, at least for a while I assume, other parties can make their own proposals. The parliament will then debate this and so Scotland’s currency will be decided, subject to review in future elections/depending on how it works out in the medium to longer terms.

What I found important, is that the pro-union campaign are now making a great deal of effort to show that an independent Scotland is not all about the SNP. The publicity they have given to all ‘parties’ on the YesScotland side has been great recently, demonstrating how support for independence is so widespread, covering all walks of life and political affiliations. I was worried that this would not get across strongly, but the currency debate has really helped with this.

Oh and I found it amusing that currency is actually way down the list of people’s priority in terms of voting next year – and that’s from BT’s own survey! 8 in 10 couldn’t care less and that’s when they had 3 things to tick. Not only that, but BT spent all that time and effort on the EU when again, 8 in 10 rank it of little importance to them. Given Yougov bias towards Labour/the union, it should be even less that care about these issues reality.

Oh, and further to our previous discussions on VI polling. I see even Yougov are showing only 6 point leads for Labour now, and they are a pollster that tends to show higher Labour leads. That’s a disaster for Ed at this stage.

Still, UKIP should do well today and that can only give a big boost to YesScotland.

NW The carefully agreed Czech Slovak currency union lasted 33 days

NW
Any incoming government can propose to change currency.

All the SNP could do is organise to maintain sterling initially for stability, then propose to keep it for the next parliamentary term if they were elected. As it is highly improbable they’ll get a majority, they’ll need to get full parliamentary support even if they do form the largest party, which is possible/likely. 

As you can see in the EU, nothing is stopping a country leaving the Euro and there have been discussions that some might do this (e.g. Greece). No country is ‘tied’ to a currency.

Anyhow, I like everyone I know, ranks currency way down the list of immediate priorities. I’d be happy with the £ initially, but likewise more than happy with a Scots currency independent of sterling longer term. Whatever works best for Scotland.

Anyhow, far more pressing is what happens with UKIP today. That could really have a big impact in Scotland. As others have mentioned, people are nervous of independence, but an increasingly far-right UK is an even scarier prospect; at least that’s what I’ve found when talking to people. With Labour losing it’s weak lead 2 years ahead of the next GE, Scots are looking at a UKIP-Tory government if they vote No.

Handclapping: “The carefully agreed Czech Slovak currency union lasted 33 days”

Indeed, but that’s hardly an example we should be using. As you’ll be aware the Czech-Slovak currency union collapsed due to a huge flow of money from the smaller country to the larger, with a massive run on the Slovak banks. 

After the union collapsed the Slovak currency tumbled to such an extent that the border had to be closed to prevent Slovaks physically carrying their money from Slovak banks to the Czech ones.

Not exactly a good example for our own proposed currency union is it! 

Velofello: “What one-sided debate? Currently views are being expressed on many issues”

You mis-read my post, I didn’t say it was a ‘one-sided debate’, quite the opposite in fact, I said “one side of the debate” on an independent Scotland’s currency isn’t being listened to by those who matter and has no chance of getting its way.

Oops, meant to add the latest poll shows:
Tory (+UKIP Tory protest vote) = 46%
Labour = 39%
A seven point lead and growing for the extreme right. And, as noted, that’s for a poll which tends to show some labour bias.

“Your assertion was to the speed at which an independent Scotland could change its currency. My factual response was that it can happen on quite a short time scale”

Only if both parties in the currency union agree to ending the union – as happened in the Czech-Slovak union. Perhaps you could explain why on earth you think rUK would go to the trouble of forming a currency union with Scotland only to subject themselves to economic damage by happily agreeing to us leaving it again a couple of months later if we elect a party opposed to it? 

“when you are independent you can do what you want when you want”

Apart from when you’ve formed a legally binding agreement or treaty or union with another independent state, obviously.

Morag,

Please disregard my last to your 9:50am for now, as I had not hit refresh before jumping in to what is now a viking whirlpool.

@ Norsewarrior; “look obviously the currency union is going to be legally binding…”. sorry but it isn’t obvious to me. A mutually beneficial agreement perhaps between Scotland and rUK but legally binding on independent countries? If one side fails to abide by the terms of the agreement to which court would the case be presented? And don’t forget, Perfidious Albion was a description earned.
But then it isn’t obvious to me how a debate described by you “as one side not being listened to’ is not a one-sided debate.

“sorry but it isn’t obvious to me. A mutually beneficial agreement perhaps between Scotland and rUK but legally binding on independent countries?”

Dear me, quite obviously the currency union is going to be legally binding! Do you seriously think two independent countries would form such a union without ensuring that one of them can’t back out of it at any time, therefore opening them to potentially very damaging economic instability?! All international treaties and contractual unions are legally binding! We don’t live in the 18th century where a ‘mutual agreement’ and a gentleman’s handshake was enough! 

“If one side fails to abide by the terms of the agreement to which court would the case be presented?”

The International Court of Justice obviously.

“I’ve chatted to about 20 UKIP voters in the past few days”

And I’ve seen the comments of numerous Ukip voters on the Telegraph who’ve said how much they despise Cameron, how they don’t believe he’ll stick to his promise of an EU referendum, and how they’ll still vote Ukip in 2015 even if it means Labour winning. 

As I said, I’m sure you’re correct to assume that some Ukip voters will vote Tory in 2015 to stop Labour winning, but there are also many who won’t – which is why it is unwise to add their estimated vote to that of the Tories and assume the Tories will benefit from all those voters come 2015, they won’t.

Note my sample is probably a better sample of ‘normal’ people. It comes from a forum not on politics, but on weather. It just has a section for politics. In that sense it is a broad cross-section, I know who the people are, many by name, where they live, how old they are, what they do for a job. Quite a different sample from e.g. the Telegraph. We may share different political views, but can debate reasonably with each other; something not seen too often on the telegraph etc. These are not strongly politically active people, just normal person on the street types who chat about all sorts of things on ‘slow weather’ days (no snow or storms…).

My adding of totals is to remind people in Scotland what the neighbours want for the UK rather than being a specific projection. In the end, it is those neighbours who will decide the what happens in 2015, not Scotland (if it stays).

This should serve as a reminder too:
link to bbc.co.uk

‘Up to one in 10’ English Democrat members were in BNP

English nationalism is on the rise and it is the polar opposite of Scottish nationalism; the former being extreme right wing and the latter centrist to left leaning liberal.

Even Labour are shifting to the right strongly. Libs are catching up.

Oh and what’s nice too, is that on the ‘Scottish Politics’ Section, everyone posting is Yes.
 

@skier
I’ve been asking UKIP voters what they’ll do in 2015 (on another forum). They’ve all said they’ll vote UKIP most likely for the council and EU elections to put pressure on Cameron to be more hard right, but will in all probability vote Tory in 2015 as they don’t want to let Labour in by the back door. 
 
Sounds about right. If today goes as expected, Ed better start watching his back.

to Quote Norsy:
Would you vote Labour in a general election in order to stop the Tories if Labour had called your party ‘fruitcakes, closet racists, clowns’ etc? And if you despised the Labour leader?
Good question, but perhaps not in the way you intended, you see this is the kind of stuff that the tory loving media down here is full of right now.
pictures of Ukip nazy claims and all manner of smears that we in the SNP/Yes campaigns, would be fully familiar with.
Yet Ukip is not being crushed or suffering because of these smears, they are thriving with all the publicity. They are indeed an extreem right wing party, yet the smears have had no effect, except to make the Tories who have said the things against them look silly. !
 
Hmmm I think the vote for Ukip will show just how effective a negetive media campaign can be, in the modern internet savy world.
I think we already know the answer.
The disgusting smear based BT campaign, will have the same success, unless we think the voter in England are more politicaly aware than those in Scotland.
I was always told that the exact opposite was true 😉