Preparing for Project Blue
A reader comment this morning caused us to go back and double-check the facts in an old post (which turned out to be entirely correct, so that was fine). But for reasons which will shortly become clear, Wings Over Scotland is on a constant mission to distill aspects of the independence debate down to the clearest, most concise summaries possible, and the act of checking spurred us to lay something out.
One of the recurring themes of the No campaign is to mock the desire of many of those on the Yes side for an independent Scotland to pursue a more Nordic vision of society than that of the neoliberal capitalism that’s now the orthodox across Europe. The oft-repeated soundbite is “You can’t have Scandinavian levels of public services on USA levels of taxation!” (although as far as we know nobody in the Yes camp has actually ever suggested an independent Scotland would be slashing taxes).
Independence supporters, of course, are equally eager to contrast Scotland with Norway, which is also a country of five million people bordering the North Sea and extracting great amounts of natural resources from it. So let’s see just how the two systems pan out for the average person.
(NB In all instances, where we say “Scotland” below, we mean “as part of the UK”.)
——————————————————–
AVERAGE GROSS WAGE (in Sterling)
Scotland £24,647
Norway £50,651
——————————————————–
Ah, but the Norwegians pay those sky-high taxes, right?
——————————————————–
AVERAGE NET WAGE (AFTER TAX/NATIONAL INSURANCE)
Scotland £19,292 (effective tax rate 22%)
Norway £35,456 (effective tax rate 30%)
———————————————————
But it’s £10 for a pint of beer in Norway! (Actually it’s less than £7.)
——————————————————–
AVERAGE NET WAGE, ADJUSTED FOR RELATIVE COST OF LIVING
Scotland £19,292
Norway £27,528
——————————————————–
So there you have it. Despite their pricey booze and their higher tax rates, the average Norwegian is still roughly 43% better off than the average UK resident – or in stark financial terms, by £158.38 a week. (£8,236 a year.)
But in reality it’s actually much more than that, because the UK is far more unequal than Norway, so the UK “average” wage is distorted by the earnings of the super-rich and unrealistically high compared to what most workers actually make.
(The minimum wage, which millions of people get paid, is barely over half the UK “average”, at £13,125 for a 40-hour week, or even less if you’re under 21.)
——————————————————–
WORLD EQUALITY RANKINGS BY GINI COEFFICIENT
Scotland 77th
Norway 6th
——————————————————–
Norwegians get a much fairer share of national wealth than UK citizens do, and better public services to boot. As a result they unsurprisingly tend to be much happier and live longer. (Luckily, the MINIMUM state pension is £1,429 a month – equivalent to £1,109 in the UK when adjusted for the cost of living – so they can afford to.)
——————————————————–
WORLD HAPPINESS RANKINGS BY COUNTRY
Scotland 22nd
Norway 2nd
(Source, p.22)
——————————————————–
(The 0.01% of readers who actually click the links in Wings articles will also have noticed that Norway’s status isn’t just dependent on its oil revenues. Sweden and Denmark, who have almost none of the natural resources of either their Scandinavian neighbour or Scotland, nevertheless also pay their populations far higher wages and, by distributing national wealth a lot more equally, enjoy a much better overall standard of living and happier people.)
The British media (there being no Scottish media) accepts the neoliberal creed unquestioningly. No newspaper or broadcaster seriously challenges the notion that the way we do things now is the only way they can be done. But there is an alternative, and Scotland is well-placed to put it into practice. We only have to choose to.
Excellent article Rev.
As you say the UK distribution of wealth just isn’t fair, I’d go as far as to say the average, wage in Scotland is below £13.000 pounds, for a 40 hour week, and could we really be any worse off, than we are now if we followed the Nordic Model, I very much doubt it.
As for paying a wee bit more tax I’m sure most would do so if it lead to a better and more fairer society, with regards to wages and services.
I hear unionists up here in ABZ everyday say vote no, you don’t want to live in socialist Norway but Norwegian oil sector workers for example are loaded. Norwegian roughnecks earn £160,000 per year, 2 weeks on, 4 weeks off. Most Norwegian oil workers have their own SME too. Norwegian offshore health and safety structure keeps an amazingly low accident rate and they have far tighter enviro regs.
Plus I seriously doubt Norwegian spooks are DDOSing Norwegian politics bloggers nor are they harvesting everyone’s meta data either. So much for the New Labour 12 year we ended boom and bust didn’t we Alistair teamGB.
The happiness graph appeared in a Business for Scotland presentation recently. The speaker made a great point. Eight of the top ten countries have approximately the same population, wealth and geography as Scotland. There is nothing to stop us getting into the top ten. The two big countries, Australia and Canada both have one thing in common – they became Independent from Westminster !!!
O/T Rev.
Here we have George Osborne wanting to rebuild Euston station, for the oncoming HS2, which will cost a shed load of money, which will come from Where?.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/george-osborne-lets-rebuild-euston-for-arrival-of-high-speed-2-9144205.html
The real fear the Establishment have with iScotland is that it shall infect the others with the notion that there is a better way to run a society/country.
If you have the time listen to the broadcast linked to by Bella.
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/02/20/indyref-what-could-it-mean-it-for-scotland-and-the-rest-of-the-uk/
Keep up the good work Rev.
This is a refreshing comment!
If Better Together are hoping for a NO vote does that mean they are No Hopers?
As a pensioner this article made me look at the basic pension provisions for the present UK and the Norway.
UK basic pension is £110.15
Norwegian basic pension 85245 NOK – £161.17
https://www.nav.no/Om+NAV/Satsar+og+utbetalingsdatoar/Grunnbel%C3%B8pet+%28G%29
as I suspected they get more. Boo. 🙁
ho
I’ll be voting for this and more in our future by voting YES even if they line the path to the ballot box with hot coals.
I’ve always though the “average wage” was a, somewhat deliberately, misleading measure. Perhaps a measure of the most common wage or wage bracket would be a better measure of a country? A billionaire in a room full of minimum wage earners and pensioners skews things somewhat and doesn’t let you know the true balance. If a society is more like a feudal distribution of wealth I’d rather know that.
Excellent article as always. Thank you
The working week in Norway is 37,5 hours. 2.5 hours less per week than UK. Therefore 48 working weeks a year x 2.5 hours = 120 less hours a year at work.
Great post Stu. I live in Sweden and although it is certainly not all a bed of roses, there is a lot to be said for a fairer distribution of wealth. When I am back in Scotland (my daughter is studying in Glasgow) and both see and discuss the every day situation with family and friends. It is very evident that things can indeed be a lot better. Surely, we can be brave enough to take that leap in the dark. Vote YES!
I went on a fantastic cruise to Norway last summer. I almost wish I hadn’t because I’ve been sick with jealousy ever since.
One tour guide absolutely rubbed our noses in the oil fund thing, especially telling us how Norway was buying up Oxford Street. (I don’t think she realised most of the passengers were Scots, and probably thought she was winding up English tourists.) She told us that the coach driver’s house (flat) was worth £200,000. She told us about the pension arrangements, and although she did imply higher taxes, she said everyone was happy to pay because they still had plenty left to live on and they appreciated the services.
One thing particularly struck me and that was what she said about equality. She said that there were lots of quite rich people, but no absolutely filthy stinking rich. These people left for tax havens, and nobody missed them. The result was a relatively small wealth gap between the poorest and the richest, and that is a recipe for a happy society.
The place was clean, well built and well maintained. Maybe there are slums in Oslo, I don’t know, but I didn’t see any in Molde or Tromso. The roads were great, apparently after public protests that they were really dreadful and what was the point of an oil fund if the country couldn’t mend its roads! So the government dipped into the piggy bank and fixed it.
I was glad we were on the cruise ship though, and not paying kroner for everything. Due to the exchange rate everything seemed appallingly expensive, and it was difficult to remember that it’s not like that for the locals because they have the kroner in their pocket to pay these prices.
Then we stopped at the Faroe Isles on the way back. Same litany, but without the oil fund. They have genuine devo-max from Denmark (itself only the size of Scotland) and they manage fine. Denmark looks after currency, defence and foreign affairs and that’s all. The Faroes receive no money from Copenhagen and send no money there either. State retirement pension is about £12,000 a year, although most people have private pensions on top of that.
It was a great holiday, although I was biting my tongue a lot because the friend I was with is a unionist I think and I didn’t want to provoke a steaming row by articulating how I was feeling about it all.
I want to be like that. I know we can be like that. I know we have the politicians who can get us there, if we just elect the right people. We have the template and the instructions right there to the north and east.
Let’s do it.
The UK worker tends to end up with worse working conditions due to our terrible support for rights in the workplace and our true working hours are, I suspect, much higher than official claims. I know far too many that end up doing all sorts of unpaid overtime due to arms being twisted and threats being made.
In a society that tolerates forced labour through the Workfare system then such threats for free labour seem somehow “reasonable” and so go unchallenged.
This too would likely contribute to the lower happiness ratings for who wants long hours of low paid and high pressure work with no support?
How much austerity and belt tightening can Scotland survive?
The following film with Alex Salmond sums it up nicely.
Workers rights are strong in Norway. Overtime pay from first minute of work outside the agreed hours. No-one expects you to stay behind after work to “help out” and not get payed for it.
I’m surprised this hasn’t been brought up in debates when SNP/Yes panelists are asked. Stewart Hosie had the chance in the Kelso debate and left it unaddressed. It’s a huge point that should get a higher profile in the Yes campaign. Thanks for highlighting it.
O/T
Quite a good article from the Newstatesman, pointing out that Westminster can no longer ignore, foodbanks, and the link to severe benefit cuts.
Even though the DEFRA pocket book pointed out the link between severe benefit cuts and foodbanks in 2012, Westminster politicians chose to ignore its findings.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/02/ministers-can-no-longer-deny-link-between-food-banks-and-benefit-cuts
It’s certainly worth revisiting a few more of these articles for new readers.
“But there is an alternative, and Scotland is well-placed to put it into practice. We only have to choose to.”
Actually I’d disagree that we ONLY need to choose to. We need to ensure that the referendum voters know these facts when making the choice because the MSM isn’t going to tell them nor is Project Fear. And yes I do link to and tell folk about WOS (and others).
Hi Stu – If you could include the difference between Scotland/Norway state pension figures too, these comparisons would make a compelling YES leaflet which may help get the older folk onboard the YES wagon, as well as DKs.
Naw Naw we are all wrong about the wealth thing in Britain, about how it’s supposed to work I mean, fortunately over on the SNP site there is a timely reminder for all of us peasants, In a leaked document from the Department of Work and Pensions, officials say the “introduction of a charge for people making appeals against (DWP) decisions to social security tribunals” would raise money.
The leak was to the Guardian, so how much do you think?
Well it’s £250 if moral mission Dave’s government gets it’s way, They probably see it as a win win situation, you either put folk of from appealing or you raise money for useful things like Trident.
There even going to make poverty profitable, well for some!
“Hi Stu – If you could include the difference between Scotland/Norway state pension figures too,”
Already added, you probably didn’t see it due to caching.
Stu – Thanks – will hopefully see it after posting this. 🙂
Sorry Rev, I posted this on the tail of the last article, then found this one was up, it is more appropriate here.
O/T I do not know if any of the readers have heard of Bill Bonner, he and his family are very well known in Financial circles, Bill has many interests but one is ” The Daily Reckoning” He has houses in Baltimore USA, France, Argentina and others. He is worth listening to, today he talks about small states and Scotland has a mention.
Here is the link http://tinyurl.com/oxhteyn
It is worth the short read.
Those forward thinking, inclusive Norwegians also reckon that by providing good quality state childcare, the economic benefit of having more women in the workforce at least equals the wealth accrued through oil.
It’s all about taking the long term view, i.e. the opposite to what Westminster does.
Minister of Finance, Norway
“In fact, if the level of female participation in Norway were to be reduced to the OECD average, Norway’s net national wealth would, all other factors being equal, fall by a value equivalent to our total petroleum wealth, including the value of assets held in the Government Pension Fund-Global (GPG, formerly the petroleum fund).”
Source: http://oecdobserver.org/news/fullstory.php/aid/3898/Women_in_work:_The_Norwegian_experience.html
I have a very simple philosophy re tax. I just can’t pay enough tax. I wish I oweD the taxman £1m come 4th April. I would be a damned sight better off than I have been all my life.
The problem is that Tory, Liberal and Labour are all Thatcher’s grotesque progeny. Laughing from the grave, she is the paradigm. The box that none of them seem capable of thinking inside of never mind outside of.
Some of us obviously weren’t listening when we were told, repeatedly, that “there is no alternative”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_is_no_alternative
There’s been a bit of a backlash against the Nordics recently, with a Guardian article and BBC Radio 4’s Book of the Week (now almost expired on iPlayer) covering the same book: The Almost Nearly Perfect People: The Truth about the Nordic Miracle.
In the extracts from the book, the author has some fair points once you get past the stereotypes, but people’s views of other countries are always coloured by their own expectations and agendas, as we’ve seen with the recent discussion around a Euro opt-out. The Nordic countries, Norway and Sweden in particular, are easy targets for polticians of all colours to project their own views onto. Are they socialist paradises or cunning Euro-skeptic holdouts? It almost depends on which day of the week it is and which newspaper you’re reading.
Incidentally, I found a Radio 4 series that goes into Britain’s relationship with itself and its neighbours: Acts of Union and Disunion. It is certainly more thought provoking than the book mentioned above and isn’t scheduled for deletion for another year.
The average price of a pint in Norway is £6.78. Just for any anoraks out there.
Source: http://www.pintprice.com/region.php?/Norway/GBP.htm
A few things to add about Sweden;
You get tax relief on about one third of your mortgage repayments saving thousands compared to the UK.
Nursery and out of school care is effectively free – I save tens of thousands of pounds per child of taxed income compared to my friends in the UK.
Unemployment benefit is related to income which allows people to maintain their standard of living as they look for new work.
Couples can share 18 months off work with each child on around 70-80% salary and get a bonus of over one thousand pounds if they share leave equally.
Which all goes to show that pooling resources offers a massive real terms saving for everyone in society! High taxes & high prices – that’s an incredibly simplistic and ignorant understanding of how things work!
“ho”
Dude, do this once more and I’m going to ban you. If you want the page refreshed, THE PHRASE IS “PAGE REFRESH”.
Les Wilson, that link you posted leads to a SKy sign in page and not the article you mentioned
cmon Rev the capatalists dont like the trickle up effect it dont suit them, now just give them the dam monies and let them improve sociaty with the trickle down effect, sometime i just wonder what would of happened if all the bank bailouts and quantitive easing had went to the people who paid for it?
Srsly, Stu, someone else suggested the answer earlier. If this is going to go on even for a few more days, just add that instruction to the site, above the bit where you tell new users to read the rules page.
If would inform those who still haven’t figured it out, and remind those of us of a forgetful disposition of what the exact phrase is. Does “page” come first or second? Is it “refresh” or “reload”. To be honest I’ve had to write it down.
“Does “page” come first or second?”
I’ve put both versions in the filter for klutzes. But I can’t legislate for people going “hi” and “ho”.
“The average price of a pint in Norway is £6.78.”
Nice link. Added 🙂
Morag, 3.03
“These people left for tax havens, and nobody missed them” – so much for the exodus of all the talents.
If you go on Google Maps you’ll have to look very hard indeed to find any poor rundown areas with bad housing in Norway, in Scotland you don’t have to look very hard at all. In fact the difference is like night and day in most towns and cities.
Without this ridiculous Union holding us back we could so easily be in a similar situation to the Scandinavian countries. The media should be ramming this fact down the throat of the Scottish public but instead they compare us Greece, Portugal, Spain and recently even Kosovo!
heedtracker @ 2.35 As I’ve said before we must work/live in a different city. I have never heard anyone in ABZ make comment about a “socialist” Norway. It was however a common theme expressed by home counties types when I worked in London but these people are generally derogatory about anything that isn’t SE England based. People I know who have experience of Norway are generally very positive about it apart from the Norwegian attitude to alcohol which is I believe driven/controlled by a small but powerful religious political party.
Having spent six years in various places in Norway I would welcome a fraction of the benefits that that country enjoys compared to what we “enjoy” in Scotland.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/27/scandinavian-miracle-brutal-truth-denmark-norway-sweden?CMP=EMCNEWEML661912
doesnt paint too nice a picture
But does Norway have an incompetent, self-serving, morally and intellectually bankrupt Labour Party pulling its strings on behalf of a crowd of Westminster bankers?
Thought not.
O/t but I hope of interest, I am down in Engerlund for a few days.
I am staying with friends and had occasion to visit the local shop.
I tendered a RBS tenner for my goods only to be informed that they could no longer accept our money.
I thanked him for the goods and left the shop my tenner in hand ,surprisingly he suddenly had a change of heart and after a little argie bargie accepted my filthy Scottish note.
This anti Scottishness is a direct result of the English media and ignorance of our Westminster elite.
Maybe I am becoming a little sensitive but I do note a difference in attitude to us Sweaty Socks when we are visiting the “mother country”
Thanks for republishing, Stu.
I actually had to look out the earlier article for someone on Twitter who was arguing about their taxation levels.
And Anas Sarwar, on his BBC debate in Greenock, made the claim that their starting tax level was 50%, and VAT was 30%.
The unionists love to rubbish other “foreign” countries as well as Scotland
Just for interest, does anyone know what their legislators are paid compared to our MPs?
There’s also a cultural aspect to the beer price issue. I’ll discuss Denmark here, given that’s where I grew up.
It’s true that a pint in a pub can be very dear in Denmark (£5 wouldn’t shock me), but that’s to a very large extent because Danes tend to drink more at home and private parties, and less at pubs. (The situation might be changing slowly, but that definitely used to be the case.)
A pub in Denmark is thus more a place you go for a drink after your cinema trip, not your regular watering hole.
So most Danes buy most of the beer they drink in supermarkets, not in pubs, and prices aren’t shocking in shops. Here’s a random supermarket website. A 500ml can of Carlsberg is DKK 14.25 (=£1.57).
Scotland and Norway, both part of the worlds largest economic controlled experiment. Both countries of similar size, geography, population. Both border the North Sea, have discovered oil at roughly the same time. The conditions for the experiment are 1 country get to use the oil and the other sends it all to a neighbouring country and get pocket money in return. So who do think has the winning solution?
O/T Atos are seeking to exit the contract for Work Capability Assessments:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26287199
Interesting development? I wonder what’s really behind it. Maybe profiting from the poor isn’t as profitable as once thought? Or maybe a collective conscience developing?
@Grant 3.07 pm
Thanks for putting up the video link. Good stuff there from Alex Salmond. And yet the MSM all rubbish this ‘unrealistic idealism’ from Scotland’s First Minister…? We know why, of course – to their eternal shame.
Norwegians now go to the UK and can’t believe how cheap it is.
Just imagine a time in the not too distant future when Scots go to the rUK (or whatever it will be named) and can’t believe how cheap it is…
Alan Mackintosh says:
I know Alan thanks, a lulu mistake. Waiting for a delete which is not coming quick enough.
Great post. I was due to be going to Denmark later in the year as part of a European road trip, until I checked the route on streetmap by dropping the wee blue man on. The tarmac looks perfect. But it’s flat. Very flat. I always feel violently homesick in the flatter parts of England, so changed the route. Which just goes to show that happiness is massively subjective.
The problem is, the ordinary worker in Scotland has been so brainwashed, they think that this is as good as it gets. Hope has been beaten out of them, and replaced with fear.
Hugo Rifkind of the Spectator magazine calling Edinburgh’s middle class folk, who read Scottish contemporary literature, terrible wankers.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/columnists/hugo-rifkind/9141162/its-time-scotlands-cowardly-posh-folk-spoke-out/
That’s not me knocking Denmark at all, by the way. We’ll be going in a few years. To Billund. 🙂
@Misteralz, much of Denmark is very flat, but there are exceptions. Check out the Sky Mountain, for instance (482 feet).
Don’t worry be happy!
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/02/21/351615/support-for-scottish-independence-rises/
Little help?
Trying to find the piece when RBS fella appeared in front of the home committee, or some other official body, and said they were perfectly happy staying in Scotland, effectively blowing Vince Cable’s scare-story out the water a few weeks ago.
I had it this morning but it keeps getting “Winston Smithed” off the Telegraph’s similar story about TSB and now I can’t find it any more.
Serious tin-foil hat moment….
Little help?
Trying to find the piece when RBS fella appeared in front of the home committee, or some other official body, and said they were perfectly happy staying in Scotland, effectively blowing Vince Cable’s scare-story out the water a few weeks ago.
I had it this morning but it keeps getting “Winston Smithed” off the Telegraph’s similar story about TSB and now I can’t find it any more.
Serious tin-foil hat moment….
Here’s a good wee video about or Nordic neighbours.
http://youtu.be/ebqdwQzmSHM
Stuart
I recommend you send that breakdown of wages to tax to SNP HQ, or quickest route to Sturgeon and Salmond.
It’s the kind of facts that are priceless ready available to rebutt the crapology we are fed by the No camp, day in, day out.
@Triangular Ears
Or maybe a collective conscience developing?
You jest! Have you never wondered why so many clearly sick/disabled people are termed fit to work? Once they win their appeal, they go back for re-assessment and ATOS earns another fee. Either profit levels are declining or, more likely, they pitched the original bid a little too far below real costs and this is affecting profit margins.
if you go on Google Maps you’ll have to look very hard indeed to find any poor rundown areas with bad housing in Norway
It’s also rather hard to find areas with vast mansions complete with swimming pools and lavish gardens just down the road from the difficult to find poor areas.
In Oslo, my boss said to me ‘Do you notice how there are little to no poor people around’. I replied ‘Yes, do you notice there’s another group missing too?’.
Aye, lack of beggars and Bentleys.
Interesting stats Rev.
I noticed you refered to income tax and NI, these are only 2 forms of direct taxation we receive in the UK.
Ive heard it said that the UK has the most heaviest taxation burden in the devoloped world.
That would be interesting to see.
Any chance of having a stab at it?
O/T.
I read in the DM (Hardcastle) that MP Austin Mitchel has tweeted about Gordon Brown’s latest scare story on Scots pensions.
Austin Mitchel has tweeted (para phrase) that Gordon Brown should have been more honest to the Scots and told them that they would get the bubonic plague and that their balls would fall off if they get Independence.
The way to go Austin.
O/T It seems we have upset Michael Kelly and the Daily Record. Next stop, the Daily Mail. See you there, Rev.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/rutherglen-msp-hits-out-spoof-3161438
Many commentors have mistakenly claimed we are a satirical site. Perhaps some of you would like to set them straight. We are the State Broadcaster of Scotlandshire and no friend to the splittists.
“O/T It seems we have upset Michael Kelly and the Daily Record.”
He’s going to be double-upset when he sees you’ve got his name wrong as well.
Inequality? A Manchester United footballer is set to receive £300K a week! What does this say?
Here’s Alistair Darling’s bluff being called, he does want a currency union.
http://youtu.be/RQi8KvjOBD0
Stairheid Rammy Expert, Johann Lamont uses her captain of industry acumen to inquire …
“Yer wantin’ whit? Scanday-navyian standards? So how much am a’ gawnay huv tae fork oot noo, fur a bingo dauber pen?”
http://tinyurl.com/nstuaf5
Maybe a nice pair of Elton John platforms might be more fitting?
o/t
One has to laugh. 🙂
http://t.co/uK67ACYEEF
As the DWP are in the process of sending out their letters saying haw much we will get per week from April, would it not be better to give the pension figures per week so any other pensioners coming here could compare instantly?
Game,set and match!
Brilliant timing! I just used this article to rip a kipper over at the Telegraph. They don’t like it up ’em!
Spoof progressive liberal BetterTogetherGuardian news attacks spoof satirical BBC Scotland with upsetting nae deeply distressing reporting with something called “the facts” and “stuff what has happened.” http://archive.is/y5lQa
a’ll get yer coat mato21
Of course Norway doesn”t have half is population asserting that their country must be controlled by their neighbouring country. Scotland is the only country in the world where this attitude exists.
Said this on a previous post but in discussions with my Englisg Scotland dwelling colleague and one of our Norwegian colleagues the Norwegian backed me by saying “Scotland must become independent it has been subsidising England for too long”
These Norwegians are not daft!
@ Andy-B
I don’t think that clip supports your case, really
Seems he did say it, but for reasons which are unrelated to the SNP case and certainly not desirable if independence is what you want
As it happens I tend to agree with him that currency union is not sustainable in the long run: he thinks it will lead to reunion and I think it will lead to a separate currency in the end. But if those are the likely outcomes then I want an independent currency from the outset. Why wait?
Having worked all over Norway in the last ten years, I’ve probably visited more than 20 towns all the way up to Bodo which geographically is in the Arctic Circle.
Every town I visited had some kind of industry related to oil as the Norwegian government sensibly spread contracts throughout the country with the state owned oil company initially placing contracts.
This makes sense for a small country, encourage local industry and diversify it across the country. Everybody’s happy.
I mentioned Bodo in particular because it was an interesting factory. They make winches and now supply companies across the world not just Norwegian.
Entering their office you are greeted at reception by a smiling Norwegian and above her head was a sub machine-gun in a glass case. I guess this is meant to catch the visitors eye. I was invited for dinner that night with the manager of the factory and of course asked him the story of the machine gun.
He told me of the second world war when a German air raid destroyed almost half the town. Later they were occupied by the Germans but their was much resistance. The locals were forced to work in the construction of a new railway line towards the South.
This factory surreptitiously were manufacturing sub-machine guns for use by the local resistance in their fight against occupation. A really proud people they are.
It pains me to even imagine that if Norway had an an ideological motivated government like the UK through the 70’s and 80’s, then that factory would be gone and the people the lesser for it.
We too can be like them, common sense rather than the pursuit of riches.
@heedtracker
I hope Greenslades blog opens a few eyes down south, but I doubt it.
LOL No one at the BBC Scotlandshire website was available for comment.. Doing their level best to defeat the seperatist scum and this is the thanks they get….
Hmm. I fear that there’s a confusion here between personal taxation and overall tax take. Taxation takes many forms besides a tax on income, which this post narrowly and (with respect) misleadingly addresses.
An obvious example would be VAT, which is a tax on expenditure rather than income.
There’s no question that the overall tax take in Norway is higher than the total tax take in the UK – it’s been in the 40 to 45% range of GDP for the last fifty years, while the UK tax take has tended to be about 5% less.
So in fact Norwegians are more heavily taxed overall than UK citizens, and your extrapolations are, I’m afraid, plain wrong.
“So in fact Norwegians are more heavily taxed overall than UK citizens, and your extrapolations are, I’m afraid, plain wrong.”
Eh? Nobody said they weren’t taxed more.
@Churm Rincewind
Love your handle. Suits you.
Are you arguing that in fact most Scots are better off financially and socially than most Norwegians?
If so please provide examples as I am a bit dubious, could be your just making it up whereas this article has all the links you need. Cheers.
We can learn lessons from Norway doesn’t mean we become a clone, so what if they pay higher taxes I would rather pay higher taxes for a free truly democratic nation which looked after it’s young, old and vulnerable
Salt Ire
Maybe this is what you’re after http://www.parliament.uk/documents/lords-committees/economic-affairs/ScottishIndependence/ucEAC20121113Ev15.pdf
I think most Norwegians would find it hilarious that their society is described as socialist btw
A visit to Norway would be an eye-opener for most people in Scotland. My niece’s husband visited Norway as part of his job for 6 weeks and went from a No to Yes by the time he returned. This was someone totally immersed in the “true blue” lifestyle, pro-unionist, die hard Rangers supporter. He said what he saw in Norway caused the scales to drop from his eyes. The standard of living, the signs of lack of poverty and public services proved he had been lied to for years by the British establishment.
@ the Rev Stuart Campbell: No, you didn’t say that Norwegians aren’t taxed more than UK citizens. But you did say that the average Norwegian is “43% better off” than the average UK resident based, as you said, on an average net wage adjusted for the cost of living. The point I was trying to make is that taxation takes many forms and that your figure of 43% is based entirely on net wage rather then total tax incidence.
By way of illustration, a country could hypothetically have no income tax but an exorbitant VAT rate, in which case its net wage figure would be high while citizens would still be paying high indirect taxes. So they would not be “better off” overall, and your figure of 43% fails on this basis.
@ Threpnr: No, I’m not saying that most Scots are better off financially and socially than most Norwegians. Why would you think that? But if you want to consider relative tax burdens on a country by country basis, you may like to consult:
wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP
So in fact Norwegians are more heavily taxed overall than UK citizens, and your extrapolations are, I’m afraid, plain wrong.
So it’s a choice between thousands of food banks, ideologically-driven impoverishment of the disabled & unemployed, weapons of mass destruction which has left thousands dead, the third most unequal country in the world, the gagging of political dissent… or higher taxes.
Obviously it’s a lot more complicated than that, but I think I’d be happier in a country that taxed us a lot over a country that starved its most vulnerable to death in the name of some twisted moral crusade.
Churm
The total tax take, in terms of percentage of GDP, is virtually the same in Norway and the UK. Just over and just under 40% respectively.
However tax take is on a more progressive footing in Norway.
e.g. UK VAT is 20%, but in Norway there are three rates 25%, 15% and 8%. 15% for food, 8% for transport. i.e. the things that people really need are discounted.
Also property tax. About a third of ‘councils’ don’t charge anything. Those that do, do so in a progressive manner based on house value. The rate is generally much lower than council charge in the UK unless you have a very expensive house.
Rev. One thing that really stands out in regard to the Scandinavian countries is that the amount of private education they have is really low.
OTOH the UK is way and by far the largest. It is over twice as much as the next nearest Continental country.
I have been looking at this to see if an anecdotally arrived at theory regarding the UK malaise and prevalence of private schooling had any evidential back up.
It seems it does, and probably more than I anticipated if anything.
Interesting stuff (well for real anoraks).
@Churm Rincewind
I didn’t understand your point so I asked a simple question and I thank you for that.
However in my view the overall tax burden is unimportant, it all comes down to what you can afford to buy with the money in your pocket including taxes like VAT.
I’m sure you would agree in general with all the surveys that show Scandinavians in general are more “happy with their lot” that is because they are better off.
Please point me in the direction of a Norwegian foodbank for instance.
I have a rudimentary knowledge of economics but I think that since some of the figures you have used are “right skewed” that would mean that most people earn far less that the “average”. In the case of the UK where the gap between rich and poor is so great and wage equality is so bad that would actually means most Scots are far worse off than even these figures suggest. This is because more people would earn under the average because the average figure would be offset by the super-rich at the other end.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
@MalkiEightO
No you are not wrong, the average figure is useless when talking about earnings. What we need is the median, that is the figure where the majority are situated so is more meaningful.
I only know basic statistics so somebody better than me can give a precise answer. Say 9 people earned a £1/week and the gaffer earned £10/week, then the average earnings would be 19/10 or £1.90/week.
So it looks as if those at the bottom end are actually earning almost double of what is true?
However the Median for these 10 numbers is 1. In other words the median is closer to the truth than the average.
Try experimenting here if your interested in finding out more:
http://easycalculation.com/statistics/mean-median-mode.php
Did anyone see the Scandimania programmes. Here is the Norwegian episode:
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/scandimania/4od
@ Churm Rincewind
But you did say that the average Norwegian is “43% better off” than the average UK resident based, as you said, on an average net wage adjusted for the cost of living.
If you adjust for the cost of living you presumably adjust for VAT. It is possible that Norwegians follow the practice in at least some American states, where they advertise goods at prices net of sales tax and people who are new to that system get a shock at the till. You see the same thing here in some cash and carries. But unless you can show that this is how the cost of living adjustment is made for the Norwegian figures I am inclined to believe that this is unlikely to be how the comparison is made
It is true that there are other taxes. But the point that is glossed over is that income is also made up of a variety of things and that tends to be ignored in pushing the TINA story: that is not an accident
I will quote from a post I made a few years ago on another board
Our income/wealth comprises both money and services. We get money in exchange for work or through capital accretion of varous kinds. But money has no intrinsic worth. What we actually get is a claim on current or future goods and services. So remuneration is really a combination of those goods and services we can command. And that is not equal. Many would argue it should not be: that is for another thread. But what is obvious is that some people get most of their remuneration in the form of money: and some get a greater proportion in the form of universalist services (you could say it is in kind). It is all remuneration. So a rich person gets food+ water+shelter+ health care+ schools + roads + defence + planning laws which protect their nice wee villages+ and + and +. And a poor person gets exactly the same list. After that the rich person has remuneration left over and the poor person doesn’t. So the rich person can add some of their wealth to get better or different things on top of the basic list.
One consequence of that way of looking at it is that it allows us to compare policy on equal terms. We, as a society, have a certain amount of goods and services we produce. They are produced for the benefit of the whole society and they are distributed amongst the population according to the values we hold. This is done partly through private sector remuneration and partly through taxation. In civilised countries it is recognised that all of the people have a right to a share of those goods and services which allows a decent life, in whatever terms we conceive that. And since we know for sure that the private sector will not deliver that, we agree to pay tax so that distribution can happen. Once those needs are met for everyone you can do what you like with what is left over, if anything. Even rich people can meet with disaster: it is surprisingly expensive to suffer a chronic illness between treatment costs and loss of income: and such things can indeed happen to anyone. But the rich have the same safety net as the rest of us, whatever that may be.
It is that view of what kind of society I want to live in which is better embodied in Norway than here: and it determines the kind of economic policy one pursues.
http://thosebigwords.forumcommunity.net/?t=49310661
“@ the Rev Stuart Campbell: No, you didn’t say that Norwegians aren’t taxed more than UK citizens. But you did say that the average Norwegian is “43% better off” than the average UK resident based, as you said, on an average net wage adjusted for the cost of living. The point I was trying to make is that taxation takes many forms and that your figure of 43% is based entirely on net wage rather then total tax incidence.”
And you’ve spectacularly missed the point. You can tax me at 95% if you like, so long as my wages are £2m a year. I’d rather that than be taxed at 1% on £30,000.
I care how much money I’ve got in my pocket and what I can buy with it. I don’t give a bee’s bawbag what equations it went through before it got there.
Fiona
You have obviously been more “clued up” shall we say since you wrote that post a few years ago. I’ve only became interested since a year or so ago.
Why might that be? I’ll tell you why it was for me, I had watched the disintegration of the Labour party and felt I had no one to vote for ever. I might never have voted again.
But here we are now with an opportunity for change. I just hope we grab it in both hands.
Why do the yes voters persist in pushing their politics on everyone . Are you that insecure about losing that you have to bully them?
As for this poll, utter nonsense.
@Thepnr
TINA has been a very, very powerful force in destroying democracy in the service of plutocracy. For thirty years we have heard very little about any alternatives at all: it is noticeable that we hear very little about Scandinavia, except on those rare occasions when they briefly vote in a right wing government and then we get comment pieces about how they have seen the light and are bowing to the global agenda. All goes quiet when they vote them out again, usually quite quickly
Nevertheless there has been some erosion of the Scandinavian model in the direction of the plutocratic state. That speaks to the power the plutocrats have achieved world wide and it is something we need to be aware of if and when we get our independence. We will not be able to easily alter course, though I do not believe it is impossible: we will have to fight our own brainwashed belief in the plutocratic premises (as is illustrated in the full post on taxation I linked: at that time I still believed the mantra that “government has no money of its own” and that was one of the planks of the thatcher/plutocratic propaganda, for example); and we will have to fight the opposition from those same forces if we do seek to demonstrate that there is an alternative by moving to more social democracy. My hope is that the neoliberals will put us in the scandinavian box and ignore our existence. But I am not convinced, simply because so many of us have relatives who live in rUK and they will not be ignorant of how things go.
Whatever happens these are interesting times. Many folk think that things like currency are not interesting: all the better to rule you with, my dear. They are indeed interesting because they determine much of political decision making: and those decisions impact directly on all our lives
Fiona
I told you I was new to this so have to admit I don’t know what TINA is. I understand plutocracy and where your coming from with the 30 years business. I grew up with that.
I read your earlier posts about currency and can see where your coming from. But now if you think for a moment, Alex Salmond didn’t write his opinion of what Scotlands currency might be if we became Independent even though he himself is an economist.
No he got 4 leading economists from around the world to give their considered opinion. As you well know there are 4 options each have a place. If the UK government won’t negotiate I reckon most Yes supporters will accept the best alternative.
Scotland will be better off independent, that has been proven to me many times, but im worried that some new facts have been missed by yes scotland.
The tory led condem government are putting legislation through parliement legislation to privitise the state pension, so that would mean a company like g4s adminstering the pension.This is the first step of the tories to abolishing the pension this should not be allowed. How many more lies and privatisations are we going to need to go through before we get out before its too late
I think the people of scotland should be told of this fact before the decide to vote no to independence and should change their minds to vote yes.
“Why do the yes voters persist in pushing their politics on everyone.”
Um, YOU came to the pro-Yes politics website, dopey.
@ Marcia
As a pensioner this article made me look at the basic pension provisions for the present UK and the Norway.
UK basic pension is £110.15
Norwegian basic pension 85245 NOK – £161.17
Marcia, in reality you get a lot more than the basic pension from Norway. Apart from the basic rate, both my wife (worked for 15 yrs private sector in Norway before coming to UK ) and myself ( 6 years in the state sector)get an additional sum of twice the basic rate giving us 3 times the basic rate. Haven’t a clue why, as the only information NAV required before deciding on the pension amount was how much our state pension was in the UK.
End result: my wife gets almost double the amount of pension from Norway for almost half the period of pension contributions, and in my case for 6 years contributions in Norway I receive about 70% of my UK pension which is based on 31 years contributions. All I can say is I’m glad I get support from a “foreign” country as we couldn’t survive on the UK pension.
A very blinkered view of Scotland verses Norway. A family member of mine recently moved to Norway and still finds the cost of everyday living astronomical despite having a well paid job. In reality they are no better of than when they lived in Scotland. The standard of living is higher I grant you but despite her high salary she still stocks up on toiletries and clothes whilst back in the UK as she finds her salary does not go far what with the price of food mortgage etc.
@Thepnr
Sorry, Thepnr. Acronyms shouldn’t be used and it is not like I don’t know that.
TINA = There is no alternative. It was a very successful slogan for Thatcher and it has been increasingly powerful ever since. The success of the plutocrats is such that by now many people cannot even imagine that there is an alternative. This is because most debate starts in the wrong place. A number of political beliefs are presented as if they were economic truths on a par with the law of gravity. They are presumed and seldom stated and any argument is built on that foundation. Once those premises are accepted the argument and the policy follows and is indeed logical: so you find yourself struggling to take the debate back to the questioning of those unexamined assumptions. It is really difficult because they are not make explicit, or if they are they tend to be couched in technical language and presented as free standing truths. As is often the case the honest enquirer appears less persuasive because reality does not lend itself to sound bites and slogans have a surface plausibility which is effective.
The success of this strategy feeds on itself: as it meets with wider acceptance it is promoted by more institutions and thus gains further credibility. The Labour party decided to accept it and are now indistinguishable from their opposition. So many people like you (and me) had nowhere to go. Labour were comfy with that, as they took our votes for granted precisely because we had nowhere to go. Plutocrats are comfy with that, because there is no effective check on their aims. And all of them can blame “voter apathy” and wring their hands about it.
For the plutocrat government control is always and everywhere inferior to the automatic excellence of the operation of the “free market” and intervention always messes things up. So when there is a demonstration that the market does not provide good outcomes that is not because the theory has failed: it is because it has not been properly tried. Ergo we need to limit the power of government more. You see the same thing with stalinists: communism did not fail; it was not properly tried. Authoritarians are birds of a feather really.
One of the strands which supports this strategy is the reframing of economics as a science in the mould of physics etc. This provides a figleaf of academic respectability covering naked class war. Not all economists have been subverted but most have: either cynically or because of the way they have been taught. They are in fact nearer to a religion or a cult than to a science: and you can tell this because their hypotheses are unfalsifiable. Falsifiablity is the hall mark of the scientific method, at least if you accept Popper’s analysis.
Let me give you just one example:
According to mainstream economists reducing wages will lead to increased unemployment. This is apparently because workers refuse to take their jackets off if wages fall and they withdraw their labour. On this rests the view that unemployment is voluntary, and from it follows all the policy prescriptions which demonise benefits claimants. We are not supposed to notice there are no jobs: we are merely to force those slackers to take the work they currently reject by making it impossible for them to live in the luxury afforded by £52 per week.
According to mainstream economists reducing wages will decrease unemployment. This is because employers will we more willing to hire people if the costs are lower and again it justifies the demonisation of claimants and the thrust to force them back into the non-existent jobs or into zero hours contracts, which are not jobs at all.
You seldom see those two propositions reconciled in the same article: it is not impossible, but it is unfalsifiable because they do not claim to know which of those mechanisms will dominate in given circumstances. They might even balance out. So the hypotheses are totally unfalsifiable and whatever happens they claim to be right.
Since most people want low unemployment they pretend that the employers are forced to reduce wages cos workers demand too much: and that workers therefore choose to lie about on benefits through a misplaced sense of what is their due: often characterised as a sense of what is “the going rate for the job”. That notion is a self defeating absurdity they tell us (though not if you are a banker when it is perfectly reasonable) and it has to be dispelled.
Quite apart from the fact that this is wrong
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11205-013-0474-9#page-1
it is wholly at odds with another part of their theory: that is NAIRU (the non accelerating inflation rate of unemployment). In this part of the forest they state that there is a natural level of unemployment which keeps the level of inflation low and it is futile to try to reduce unemployment below that level. Because, of course, inflation is the worst thing that can happen (well they would think that, wouldn’t they? Inflation is a tax on idle wealth: unless it is house price inflation: then it is a thoroughly good thing)
NAIRU has a whiff of the scientific about it: until you realise that the rate which achieves this end varies dramatically. In fact it follows the actual level of unemployment quite closely. It has no empirical content at all.
But it has this consequence: whatever the rhetoric they are wedded to high unemployment. It is a central part of their economic strategy.
In 1979 Thatcher won the general election and a major reason for that was that unemployment was around one million and that was unacceptable. It has never fallen below 2 million since then and by now people remember there was high unemployment then but not the actual level. So they get excited if there is a fall to a rate more than double that now ( not even touching the fact that the measures have been distorted so the figures are not even comparable). The people have been led to accept that 2 million people on the broo is a success. And it is entirely a consequence of the focus of economic policy: the move from Keynes to Friedman is pretty much the whole explanation for that.
These are choices. Economics is woo
And that problem is apart from the absurdity of the first: they claim to believe that unemployment is voluntary, you see.
“In reality they are no better of than when they lived in Scotland. The standard of living is higher I grant you”
Um…
@ John
John, you say “the standard of living is higher I grant you”
So how do you explain why the standard is higher if things are so astronomically expensive in Norway that your relative is finding living there to be just as difficult as here? I know I can, but I think you are a bit “information deficient” in making your judgement.
I also object to your saying I have a “very blinkered view” of the relative merits of living in the two countries. I lived and worked there, have family in Norway and visit twice a year, and yes they also buy toiletries etc when they come here; so what? On the other hand they don’t have food banks, national debt of £1.4 trillion,7% unemployment, a grotesquely unfair welfare system etc. Maybe you should take your blinkers off?
Well said, Alan
John has been spreading pedestrian guff on other sites. If he believes any of it he deserves our sympathy.
We require to inform our people that the UK state pension is about the worst in Europe and in deep trouble. No pension pot has been put aside by any UK government which have always expected the next generation to fund today’s pensions. As coming generations in UK look like being poorer for the foreseeable future this puts the inadequate UK pension under even more threat.
PS it is entirely natural for people from well off countries to come to poorer countries for shopping. When I had a hotel in Cowal I used to get an annual visit from Icelandic pensioners whose state pension was several times the UK’s and who spent almost he whole fortnight on shopping trips
@Barry Shane
Can we assume your an undecided Barry ?
Aye John – WTF are you on about; try and make sense next time before you ‘assert’ blinkered views exist ?
What about your own ?
@Churm Rincewind
relay on wikipedia for sources ??
Perhaps the most impressive thing about our Nordic neighbours is the smaller income gap they all have between the best off and the worst off.
Average wage is a funny thing. I remember explaining how it could deceive to some folk at a public meeting many years ago at the height of the destruction of industry in Lananrkshire.
You have a village with doctor,a lawyer, a mechanic and a shop assistant. If the mechanic loses his job the average wage in the village rises. If the shop assitant does the same the average wage shoots up.
I had to lay this out as some tit was defending the closure of Scotland’s industrial base on the grounds that the average wage in Scotland had risen at that point.
It’s become such a harsh and cruel country, with setback after setback levelled at the less well off. New lows reached by the Con-Dems every day, it seems. I had been considering moving to Norway if Scotland fails itself in the referendum. This article provides a slew of reasons to reinforce that plan.
Lots of discussion about how much a pint of beer. God almighty. Loaf of bread or pint of milk instead?