A thing that might happen next month
Social media is alive today with tales of people being refused a vote in the Labour leadership election on the grounds that they don’t support Labour values (if anyone even knows what those are any more). We suspect you’ll be hearing quite a bit about it in the press over the coming days.
The prevailing reaction seems to be slack-jawed astonishment at the planetary-scale car-crash the party has allowed to develop around the issue, with another “coup” story thrown in for good measure in the Telegraph.
We can only think of one way the farce could become even worse.
It’s 12 September, the day of the decision. Harriet Harman walks out in front of the assembled press and reads out the results.
– Jeremy Corbyn has won the first round at a canter, with 47% of the vote. His nearest competitor, Andy Burnham, has 23%, with Yvette Cooper on 21% and Liz Kendall a distant last on 9%.
– Thousands of other votes for Corbyn have been disqualified.
– Kendall drops out, and her 2nd and 3rd preferences are given to the remaining three candidates. But almost none go to Corbyn, and nobody yet has over 50%, so a third round is entered.
– Kendall’s votes split heavily for Cooper, who moves up to 28%, with Burnham on 24% and Corbyn on 48%. Burnham now drops out. His 2nd preferences nudge Cooper to 51% and victory.
Labour is now led by someone who was the first choice of less than a quarter of the party’s own support, and who on 1st preferences actually finished 3rd out of four.
(We’ve deliberately made the example extreme there – it’s a lot more likely that the 2nd-place candidate would win, but it’s absolutely theoretically possible that the one in 3rd could overtake them in the 2nd round, in so far as we understand the system, and it seems to be widely agreed that Cooper and Burnham are neck-and-neck.)
The runaway preferred choice is plainly seen to have been denied victory only by a massive vote-fiddling operation by which thousands of people who voted for Corbyn – or were merely suspected to have been thinking about it – have had their votes openly thrown in the bin on trumped-up charges without any challenge or hearing.
Labour announces that it is now a plausible and democratic alternative government in whom the British people should place their trust, even as half of its own members and supporters take to the streets with pitchforks and flaming torches.
We’re just going to leave that one there for you to ponder.
Brilliant picture and article, LOL.
🙂
Labour have values……………………. (that is all)
I smell shite.
Even McTernan couldn’t make this shit up.
British ‘democracy’ in action.
Does Ruth have any idea how the postal vote is going?
They are all postsl votes? Mmmm, i wonder how that will turn out.
You know what it wouldn’t surprise me if that did happen. I would be hilarious if it did though. Labour would simply die of embarrassment.
Have you now or at any time voted in a way we didn’t tell you to
Sigh. Yet another serious, no-win situation Labour have created for themselves. I cannot see this ending well, I really can’t. Whatever happens now, there will be much blood on the carpet. Bodies everywhere.
Such a shame. 🙂
Plainly it’s all the fault of the Cybernats.
SNPBAD.
By 12th September, there may be enough bodies across the land to form a brand, spanking new, political party:
The People that Labour Rejected
You never know!
Surely the Unions must get involved in this, members through contributions have been supporting Labour Party for years even if not members of the Party until now or through the £3 buy a vote system, this is completely crazy they actually want to control what folk think or say and you have nutters like Hotherstall defending it.
One other very serious question is: given the Daily Record (the Labour house rag in Scotland) has come out for Corby and stated on their front page he’s the only hope left for a decent UK, what will they do if the right wing Tpry/Lab establishment do that?
Or indeed if Corbyn wins and the Labour party fall apart, and the UK goes all out against in a Project Fear 2 that means he can’t possibly win in 2020?
Someone will found a new political party – the Left Labour Party. So called because it consists of those a) to the left of Labour and b) who have left Labour (or who Labour has left, more pertinently).
Erm … I may be wrong here … dons Village idiot hat in preparation … but I take it the denial of voting rights to possibly thousands of union and Labour party members on the basis that “they” do not support *ahem* Labour values is what passes for DEMOCRACY in the Labour party these days then. :d
…any suggestions for an alternative to popcorn?
It looks like Labour are in a death spiral now and it doesn’t matter who wins because they will have pissed off so many members with their antics.
I keep waiting for Brian Rix to appear (sorry if you are too young to get that one)
All those people who went for the £3 join up, thought they were joining a different party.
They had seen what had happened in Scotland and thought they were joining a kind of SNP. They somehow missed that they were joining the party they didn’t want to vote for in the GE.
In Scotland we have Nicola Sturgeon, supported by the whole party, is a proven leader, who people already voted for and is popular with the majority of people in Scotland.
If Corbyn is chosen, it is still they case in a GE no one can vote for him who isn’t in his constituency. There would need to be a replacement of lots of Lab MPs, hope they will be voted in, and then that they would win the GE.
However in Scotland, I do recognise, there are many voters who are willing to throw away their advantage, it happened before in the Referendum.
I’m beginning to think Labour are really Tories, not just Tory lite. Tories that want into Westminster but, the real Tories have already got candidates for all the seats, so next best thing join Labour get elected, and Bob’s your uncle job done.
Labours planetary scale implosion. Lib Dems crashed and burnt. England (and therefore UK) handed to the Tories for a decade.
Is that a “material change” or do we just hang on in there?
The 12th of September is my birthday, and I cannot think of a nicer present if that outcome comes to pass!
As Annie says above, the Trade Unions seem strangely quiet as their ‘movement’ is eviscerated
Are those whose votes are being rejected going to get their money back?
Unless The Electoral Reform Society are supervising this election Corbyn hasn’t a chance in hell of winning no matter what the opinion polls say.
The forces of evil both within Labour and in the media and Establishmnt in general who are trying to destroy Corbyn say there is no chance of him ever being PM but can anybody picture any of the other 3 Stooges as PM?
Meanwhile in the Evening Standard Liz Kendal is reported to be keen to join a new group known ad the resistance, set up by Tristan Hunt and the former shadow business secretary, if Corbyn wins.
Not content with gerrymandering the result by declaring long standing members and activists as non citizens unfit to vote responsibly and actively seeking to attract Tory voters by the only method possible, adopting Tory policies, they are now openly declaring to the electorate across these islands that the Labour Party can’t be trusted with democracy because if you vote the wrong way they will expel you from the electoral register and openly plot for a coup against any result they do not like.
These people are not stupid. They know this is the case and they know this will make the Labour Party unelectable for a lot longer than a couple of decades. Which means they have publicly made a choice that they would rather Labour never ever get near Government again than allow any alternative to the neo liberal narrative and ideology they worship at to enter the UK body politic.
Talk about deranged zealots. This lot are on another dimension. In the lexicon of the late Terry Prachett the Labour Party are the Bloody Stupid Johnson of politics.
So a large majority of YES votes were probably disqualified because “they don’t support British values”.
A sad situation for democracy. That is, if the OK UK had anything democratic to be sad about. It doesn’t. The game is to maintain a ruling establishment with a neo-liberal agenda. Thatcher created it then Blair and Clegg took their parties into that club.
Now the cosy consensus is being challenged, wagons are being circled, efforts are being made to protect the system.
From a Scottish perspective? The weaker and more damaged Labour is, the better, as far as I am concerned. The more the WM system looks rotten, the better.
the Labour Party seem to be adopting a kind of Goldilocks strategy to obtain new members.
They have literally got to be “just right”.
Just a wee side thought on this.
Has anyone from the Labour party HQ commissariat drawn the attention of the few still being permitted to vote for Jeremy Corbyn that if they continue down this road then England will be invaded by … erm … ALIENS! 😀
Q: “Have you now, or at any time, voted for old Labour”.
A: No, but I’ve got a photie o’ the Queen an a short bit o string. Wull that dae?
Dear God. Yvette Cooper as leader of the Labour party…what a thought.Loved the photo – very apt. ‘this is a local shop for local people. There is nothing for you here’. Outsiders not welcome.
Labour have totally lost it. They are Royston Vasey.
Labour voters, come join us. Labours loss is our gain.
To paraphrase Groucho Marx “Those are my values. If you don’t like them, I have others.”
Par for the course. The Labour Party does favour spectacular own goals – only this time it may be more than relegation.
Sounds like “Corbyissm” is the new “McCarthyism”.
We know how that turned out. The sense of entitlement from the Labour mob truly is something to behold!
All Labour voters are equal, but some are more equal than others.
I think luigi has hit on the point I was going to make. If Corbyn loses, he should leave the party. It is, clearly, no longer the party he joined. Set up a new party based on the values of the old Labour Party using the publicity and support he has managed to gain, possibly also the support and positive influence of Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP, gather all those 300k or so members and create a real and positive alternative to austerity. The SNP can’t do it alone. If we have to stay in the UK for a bit longer, I think this is the best outcome for us. Corbyn seems to have the support. I’m almost hoping he doesn’t win and this is the eventual outcome. We know how screwed up new labour is. The blairites and ‘centrists’ and msm will will be as relentless and utterly without morals or scruples in attacking him as leader as they are attacking him now. We have seen this before and continue to see it now in SNPBAD.
Any chance The Electoral Reform Society is taking an interest in this shambles?
I bet the BBC are all over this…
And this is the sort of politics they’d like us to go back to supporting…. mibbie no eh?
Oh Jeez! 😀
Ach, it’s all over bar the bayonetting of the wounded.
Now, where have I heard that before…
Labour – a serious case of self harm there.
This is unbelievable Rev.
What’s next,not allowed to vote in elections if you’ve posted on Wings?
When the Labour party completely implodes shortly after 12th September I wonder could one of the resulting factions become members of the Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition (TUSC) that was formed by David Nellist after the 2009 European elections?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_Unionist_and_Socialist_Coalition
Meanwhile in the Evening Standard Liz Kendal is reported to be keen to join a new group known ad the resistance, set up by Tristan Hunt and the former shadow business secretary, if Corbyn wins.
Denying people a vote on the basis they re-tweeted Ken Loach, openly taking about forming “a resistance” to a democratically elected leader. And I’ve seen one of my Labour no-voting friends talk about Gulags.
Surely they must have an inkling of how this makes them look? The kind of people it puts them alongside in history?
Labour. Is. F**ked.
Thought it was the SNP who were supposed to be acting like North Korea?
Whats going on ??
For all those Labour party members, new and not so new, who are now being prohibited from voting in their party’s leadership election here is a wee suggestion that they might like to consider doing. 😉
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QdzubQ5-sQ
Alternatively they may like to consider enjoying a ride here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b0crVsUaQg
We are now winessing the result of the’Labour Party’ being infiltrated by the Establishment decades ago.
Surely even the most blinkered Labour voter can see what is happening?
Oh, i forgot, the Bird and call UKaye will reasure them that everythin is OK. Or is that UKOK?
So, would it be better if this lot of idiots were running the country now? What a choice
Wance agaain. Franz Ferdinand Sparks.
What with all this talk of purges and coups,if Mr Corbyn doesn’t win from here,then the winner would effectively be a dictator in a Big Brother style party, in which only voters approved by the politburo can vote. They compared YES campaigners to dictators,nazis and stalinists. Couldn’t make it up. 🙂
Jesus Christ what next I really do feel sorry for Labour supporters who at the end of the day are supporting their side. If it turns out lots of supporters of JC are not getting to vote then Labour are finished as long as it is reported in the MSM. I was worried about a JC win they could take back voters from the SNP in time for next years SE, but if any of the other 3 win no bother they are soft tories. I will watch this unfold with real sadness for true democracy and it just takes me back to the indyref where lies and smears killed the dream.
As Labour enters its death throes (good riddance) and democracy is assaulted by the British state, Jackie Bird will appear at 6.30 tonight to disclose that an SNP MP only said ‘we’ll see’ when their child asked if they could have some chocolate. Glen Campbell and Brian Taylor will be reporting LIVE from the scene..
@Clootie says: 20 August, 2015 at 4:48 pm:
” … any suggestions for an alternative to popcorn?”
Digestive Biscuits do very well, Clootie, and if you have a sweet tooth, Dark Chocolate Digestives, and instead of fizzy drinks, a nice wee cup o tea goes doon afu nice.
“I keep waiting for Brian Rix to appear (sorry if you are too young to get that one)“.
Nah! Clootie, Brian Rix wis aye caught wi troosers aff. Labour jist get caught wi thir troosers doon, (or in some cases, that shall remain nameless, wi somebody else’s troosers doon).
It will interesting to find out how many members are allowed to vote. Probably about 872 by the sounds of it.
Ali says:
“So, would it be better if this lot of idiots were running the country now? What a choice”
We are most fortunate to have all three Unionist parties as thoroughly undesirable, one way or another.
It’s all part of the perfect storm which hopefully will result in a comfortable Yes win in the coming Indyref2.
The alternative is a worry. If there was a Unionist party who appeared competent and capable, the case for getting to Hell away from WM rule would be weakened!
Clootie says:
20 August, 2015 at 4:48 pm
“”…any suggestions for an alternative to popcorn?””
Some fava beans and a nice Chianti perhaps?
If Labour losers form a resistance,will they be seperatists? 🙂
Do you get the feeling we’ll have 2 New Labour parties by this time next year?
Is there any independent organisation overseeing the voting?
I was always sceptical, even cynical, of Referendum vote rigging. Watching this shambles unfold I’m beginning to see things differently
I am genuinely astonished by what’s going on. Someone barred from voting on what is apparently the unforgiveable crime of retweeting Ken Loach?
I mean, what? WHAT?
“YOU WILL VOTE THE WAY WE TELL YOU OR YOU ARE OUT.”
“But I want to vote for Corbyn.”
“Oh you do, eh? Traitor! TRAITOR! You were investigated and found to have retweeted something Ken Loach said back in whenever. That is unacceptable. YOU are unacceptable! Get out of my sight!”
“But …”
“GET OUT! We’re the Labour Party! We stand for democracy and respect and equality! FUCK OFF!”
@ Calgacus 5:18pm – Never a truer word spoken in jest. Can you imagine the amount of searching and filtering of names that has gone on here to result in specific vote rejections? Run it through a few databases, apply gorillathyms, pick up keywords and hey ho….reject x, y and z.
As Stu says, once the MSM get a taste of this perhaps it will be reported. I doubt it.
As for us lot on Wings – well its eternal damnation. 🙂 but I would be quite happy toasting my tootsie with such fine people.
If you go back to the Labour Party as it was first formed its agenda was a bloodless revolution it has never at any time came near to fulfilling that the truth is most of the labour mps should never have been in the Labour Party they are not and never have been socialists I mean I know of,one who is said to be on the left who sends their children to a private school enough said
If they are capable of doing this, then they are more than capable of helping to rig a referendum!
Thought it was the SNP who were supposed to be acting like North Korea?
Whats going on ??
Projection. Massive doses of projection. Been happening all through the referendum. This is what *we* do and how *we* think, therefore it must be how *they* think. My God *they* are utterly vile, fascist bastards who’ll put us all in Gulags if we dissent!!!!
The kind of thinking that eventually ends most power-crazed dictatorships.
there is dubious legality in this right-wing behaviour; so what if I once-upon-a-time publicly expressed an opinion other than that of official Labour policy or ‘values’ ? I HAVE CHANGED MY MIND AND NOW AGREE WITH LABOUR so can i please have my vote please ?? (hypothetical)
It’s fascinating to watch this implosion happening before you’re very eyes. You just wouldn’t have thought it possible. It just shows what the thirst for power can do to some, presumably, reasonably well-educated people. (NB – I did not say intelligent!)
Anyone in the Labour Party keeping tabs on how many destroyed post-vote ballots by voters rejected for not expressing Labour values have been for Burnham, Cooper and Kendall?
Surely, in the grand scheme of all things statistical,there must be some.
What?
Not a one?
Mulling over the anti-Corbyn rhetoric within the Labour party it seems that, if Burnham, Cooper or Kendall win:
1. Corbyn supporters must accept the result for good of party
2. Rehash same old aspirational policies for the 2020 election.
If Corbyn wins:
1. Establish “resistance” for the good of the party
2. Rehash same old aspirational policies for the 2020 election.
Jack Foster just tweeted:
“I’m curious, has anyone experienced/heard of someone disqualified from Labour leadership vote who planned to vote for Kendal/Burnham/Cooper?”
Good question, would love to know the numbers here, cause this would finish them if it is shown clearly that this is about ‘purging’ only the Corbyn voters. They can’t not report that…can they? (MWHAAAAA…)
A Very British Coup?
Anyone who does not see that this “party” is a department of the Conservatives designed to cause confusion and scattering of centre-left and left-wings is either incredibly forgiving, or incredibly stupid.
The voters detest the dinosaurs at the top, but somehow they keep their jobs, blunder after blunder, and seem to be getting rewarded for it.
I call a sham. I really do.
Labour have consigned themselves into the dustbin forever. They are a laughing stock and would be globally if anyone cared to hear about their misadventures and petty behaviour. Just when you think they can’t possibly get any more stupid…
I actually think now that if Jeremy Corbyn does not win then there will be more serious problems for Labour in the UK than if he did. Sure if Corbyn wins the Red Tory faction will try to oust him at some point. However, if he is denied victory in the kind of circumstances outlined in the article above, then all the people who have campaigned for him, and either joined or re-joined the Labour Party, will have no reason whatsoever to remain in that party.
If a blatant stitch up happens then the British Labour Party is completely fucked imo. There would in all likelihood be a mass desertion of left wing supporters and activists, probably to the Greens in England. This is what and where around at least 20 years of spin, sell outs, lies, triangulation, Tory lite, and PR bollocks has got the Labour Party in the UK.
Foonurt says:
20 August, 2015 at 5:32 pm
Wance agaain. Franz Ferdinand Sparks.
Nice to hear from you again, Foonurt. Missed your bad boy style.
As far as Labour is concerned, this is a catastrophe of China Syndrome proportions. Once again, a masterly analysis by The Rev.
Am I bovva’ed? This just in: Naw!
Harriet Harman.
First the cringing ‘Abstain or the big boys will poke fun at us and we’ll cry’ disgrace on the Tory Welfare Bill, and now this omnipurgatorialdarkartsMandelmess.
Why are we paying her?
Douglas gourlay says:
20 August, 2015 at 5:11 pm
If Corbyn wins, he has to invite those fake socialists to leave the party. Face them down before they start plotting against him. If he hesitates, he is dead.
If Corbyn does not win, are those genuine socialists and radicals left in the party going to bend over and take it? By staying in the party, they are providing the red tories with a credibility they do not deserve. They should up sticks and leave – pronto.
Well Corbin was probably the last hope for labour to redeem themselves in any way the could have.
If the skullduggery now being employed to defeat democracy works, they are screwed particularly in Scotland.
I mean even worse than they are now.
But also in England, which is the biggy for them. They think what they are doing is not important, to most (except the Tory followers ) labour voters, it certainly is.
They will punish whatever is left of the party.
@jimnarlene says: 20 August, 2015 at 4:50 pm:
“I’m beginning to think Labour are really Tories, not just Tory lite. Tories that want into Westminster but, the real Tories have already got candidates for all the seats, so next best thing join Labour get elected, and Bob’s your uncle job done”
As I’ve pointed out several times on the forum there has been an, “Establishment”, of elite rulers in charge of South Britain since the Romans, “Came, saw and conquered”, and first recorded Roman Britain’s history.
When the Romans left the south Britons invited in the Angles, Jutes, Saxons and other Germanic tribes to protect them. After all the south Briton natives had gone through several hundred years with no experience of either running their own country or of defending their own country. This was how the name “Angle Land”, came about and, through time, became, “England”.
The same process of the Germanic Vikings, or Norsemen, tribes had taken place in other areas of Europe. Significantly mainly in what is now Normandy so called as it too was settled by the invitation of the Norsemen who gave their names to, (it became corrupted to, “Normans”), Normandy.
So south Britain has had an elite ruling class of Germanic, Angles/Jutes/Saxons/Normans/Vikings since the Romans left and it was those Normans who gave us the Feudal system of the Royals granting lands to the nobles that still sees hereditary peers sitting in the HOL to this very day.
It is the same old, mainly English, class system that has always divided the people of Britain. Make no mistake about it, the present Establishment are indeed mainly all from the same upper class privileged class of people.
Certainly Labour went into power as a working class people’s party but quite soon became an integral part of the Establishment. Long gone are the days when the Labour Party Leadership was drawn from the ranks of the joint Labour/Trade Union/Co-operative parties of the working classes.
I moved to Kelty in Fife, (then still a mining community), in 1962, (having worked in Fife since 1952), and one of the first things I became aware of was how the Manager of the Kelty Co-Op strolled around, with his gold watch and gold chain stretched across his waistcoat clad ample belly, as if he owned the village.
I was brought up near a former shale mining village where the manager of the co-op was very well aware he was the paid servant of the people. The Co-op/Trade Union/Labour Party partnership was then in the process of splitting up. Soon it was to become clear to me that the Parliamentary Labour party had become just another part of, “The Establishment”. What you witness today is the three Establishment Unionist parties only paying lip-service to being other than a unified, “Establishment”. Good grief some of their recent leadership have been former English Public School and/or Oxbridge classmates.
And they have the check to say Jeremy Corbyn will make the party unelectable!
July, 1954. I was seven-years-old and taken with my parents to Peebles, for visiting day at the local Scout company’s annual camp. In the course of the day, my elder brother would go through the ceremony which got him full membership of the Scouts.
Later, round the camp fire, each patrol did a wee comic sketch, one of which has stuck with me. It involved one poor member of the patrol continually being chucked out, when he went to complain about muck being dumped in his garden.
Eventually, he went in, gave a full Hitler salute and was listened to, since, clearly he was now a member of the party.
Asked: “Are you a member of the party”? He replied: “No”.
“But, you gave the party salute.”
“No I didn’t,that’s now the height of the muck in my garden”.
That sketch – it’s the Labour Party today.
By the way, Brian Rix always dropped his trousers – he is, as Baron Rix, a cross-bench member of the House of Lords. Nothing unusual there then.
@gus1940 says: 20 August, 2015 at 4:54 pm:
“Are those those votes are being rejected going to get their money back?”
The swift and emphatic answer to that question was a resounding, “NO”, gus1940.
Labour made that very, very clear even as they announced they were arbitrarily rejecting those they did not like.
Either way Labour are the scourge of Scotland and anyone who votes Labour in Scotland is doing damage to Scotland.
Therefore I would like to see their demise,even if it may harm England’s prospects of electing a ‘left centre’ government.
After all no one in France,Germany,Ireland, or any other country would vote for a party which damaged their country,just to promote England’s remote chances of left centre governance.
And nor should they,any more than England would do the same for them.
Kezia will simply smile that glaikit smile
Got my voting paper – tra la la la la!
Is Jeremy Corbyn entitled to vote, after all he has been on a platform with “undesirables”
So Labour demand unwavering loyalty from its supporters and anyone that dares to question what its leadership tells you to think is cast out. Sounds a bit cult like to me.
No body in charge, Miliband, before he resigned, set up the rules which were passed and was overwhelmingly backed by a special Labour conference last year.
They have marched straight into a swamp with their latest tricks.
Genuine supporters denied their franchise, who would have believed it.
Are we bothered? Naw!
My 1990’s, recently rescued, chocolate fountain and fondue set are all PAT tested and popcorn ordered. Bring it on!
Macternan currently putting the boot in hard to JC, Channel 4 news right now, very hard indeedee.
I guess Scottish votes will, disappear like the dodo, as not
desired.
Given that 99% of the Labour party are Tory MPs who can’t get into the Tory party, what will they do if Corbyn wins.
Paula Rose says:
20 August, 2015 at 6:58 pm
sshh! we were to keep it secret!
I was thinking of backing Liz Kendall………..NAW!!!
Just watched the bafflingly smug, smirking and self-satisfied John “Morons/Mad Dog” McTernan on Channel Four News and I have but one question:
On a scale of one to ten, just how punchable is John McTernan?
I struggle to think anything else but f##k em useless labour -couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery let alone a credible political democratic party.
Not grumpy just eyes wide open.
Andy Burnham ”your my wife now’……etc
Labour – the proverbial sinking warship firing on its rescuers.
On channel4 news. Corbyn supporting Isis against USA ( more or less)!
Do you know what? I couldn’t care less. Whatever happens Labour UKOK are struggling and that’s ok by me after what they’ve done to Scotland!
It’s probably the best outcome. England is probably two or three years behind Scotland in terms of political awareness at grass roots – but it’s catching up fast. This scenario would have a similar impact to the English electorate as the referendum (and subsequent election) in Scotland last year – a wake up call to the blindingly obvious. I see the SNP haven’t been asked what their preference is…..wonder why?
ha ha thump
Obviously the practice of harvesting data on their SNP BAD rivals has proved invaluable in spying on and purging their actual supporters.
Appears to me that they are hedging between gerrymandering and calling the whole thing off. My guess is they will test the water with the former and if they are getting too much heat will go with the later. Blame it all on Tory infiltration then have their MPs elect the right person. Not ideal but a better prospect that actually having JC win and ousting him.
To any remaining loyal Labour voters/members having a wee browse and maybe a wee rethink of their vote September last. Can you not see what’s happening now? When your own party is basically ‘fixing’ its own leadership vote? When their favourite question appears to be ‘are you now or have you ever been…’? That just can’t be right in any sane world. It simply can’t be.
You don’t have to become a member of the SNP. You don’t even have to vote SNP. Just vote for a Scotland free of the establishment parties, then vote for whoever your conscience demands. Form a proper Labour party for Scotland, one free of the compromises of becoming ‘electable’ to a few marginal seats. It is the only way to be free of this appalling situation.
Robert Peffers,
(I to am very familiar with Kelty, although I am very carefull, hide in a shop doorway (eclipse!) to make sure Wullie Rennie is no aboot!!, )
I digress, I entirely agree with your former post, regarding the Normans, ect, only to point out that these dictatorial Normans NEVER left, they are, to a large degree what we regards as “the ruling classes”!.
Sorry O/T ON NOW
Independence Live is broadcasting live video on BDS: Support Palestine Meeting. Log in to join the conversation!
“The Scotsman revealed that then-US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton set up a team in Washington to roll back a BDS Scottish success when the 2009 Edinburgh Film Festival returned Israeli Embassy sponsorship money. Why were they unsuccessful? Gail MacKenzie, SPSC Treasurer (just back from Palestine) will be talking.”
http://tinyurl.com/onfshhl
More Labour re-starts. “Okey-cokey, pig in a pokey”
And some people think we were not cheated at the REF last year. Aye right.
Reminds me of my father who used to collect sixpence donations from workers in our area to keep the Labour movement alive.Ordinary people with ordinary jobs, contributing to something they felt stood for their values.
The people I met then ,when accompanying my father, would never contribute to the Labour Party of today. They have little in common.They are no longer the champion of ordinary folk ,as exemplified by their attempts to oust the only Socialist standing in the leadership election.
How things have changed in my lifetime.May the reformers rot in Hell for what they have done to an organisation that once belonged to the people, rather than existed for its own
gratification.
My father and many others gave of their time and effort to keep the Party alive, but to what end?.
Albaman
Can I point out that plenty descendents of the Normans are alive and well in Scotland and in no way part of the ruling class.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33983794
Looks like the BBC is painting a totally different picture to suit their anti Corbyn propoganda, just another Indyref style project fear and smear
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33991920
Re. The Normans.
King Robert the Bruce was a Norman.
Heheh – 3 hours later, I’m still giggling at Robert Peffers 5pm post about his wee bit string & his photie.
It’s more cogent than anything Labour’s throwing about at the minute.
Albaman
Can I also suggest that the ruling class of Scotland is in fact the broad mass of the Scottish People. They simply and inexplicably allowed the country to be stewarded by the ruling class of England for the last 300 years, persuading themselves and being persuaded by others that they were better off with someone else at the wheel.
At some point they may decide to take back the reigns, and when enough of them do, and enough of them realise their sovereign power, nothing will stop them getting back in the driving seat.
Westminster will do what it does best ad infinitum. The patient has to want to get better. Ruling and pooling.
It is our countrymen and women that need to wake up. And the sleeper shall awaken.
Some reaction reported in Observer.
https://archive.is/QQl5m
@ chris kilby
“On a scale of one to ten, just how punchable is John McTernan?”
No idea, but when confronted with an exhibitionist whose inflated perception of his own capacity is much much grander than his actual claim to it, the recommended strategy is point and laugh.
I think Labour exist in a parallel universe.
This is totally surreal. I tend to agree with Muttley 79 @6.17 that Labour could have more serious problems if Corbyn doesn’t win. What do they expect to happen by disenfranchising party members? Aye ok anyone but Corbyn will win, but I don’t think that they have thought this one through.
Could be all out war amongst the faithful, or a mass exodus. They really do seem to have a death wish.
If any of the other three win SLAB will surely be wiped out in 2016.Not that I care, they have held Scotland back for decades.
The sooner that they die the better for Scotland.
More popcorn anyone?
Ah! good old Labour.
They will take your money but hell mend you if you any form of intellect.
“And they wonder why they are toxic”
Give us your money and get back in your box.
For the first time in generations, a British Labour leader may be elected who is not a member of the Fabian Society*. A calamity worse than the Tories.
For the first time in generations, a British Labour leader may be elected who is not a Friend of Israel**. A calamity worse than peace in the middle-east.
* I haven’t actually confirmed that assumption, though I’d be a bit more than surprised if JC is a Fabian.
** Doesn’t make him an anti-Semite it simply indicates he is not a Zionist.
Has this now become a lose-lose situation for Labour.
So if the ruling elite in the south of England invited various warlike tribes to support them through their troubled times, is it suffice to say that a major reason for them keep g the Scots, Irish and Welsh close was to provide them with a fighting force to keep them in power ?
Hypothetically that sounds like a rerun of the referendum in that “we have democracy as long as you vote for who we want.”
@ CameonB Brodie – here’s your missing’r’ xx
As a wholly detached observer of the present chaos within the Labour Party and the obvious distress reported by some of those who have learned that they are disbarred for being ideologically unsound, can I suggest that the ones who should really be worried are those who are considered by the gauleiters as politically acceptable?
I am confused! I thought “Labour values” were…. “SNP bad”
Without independence, the SNP, the Scottish National Party , will take several generations longer, just to repair the damage, caused during and since Thatcher.
If anyone else gets in, they will only build on the damage, without understanding the root causes.
Independence let’s us move away, not from Britain, but from modern and the historical ills, that still hamper us.
A post I’ve just done on three Facebook pages…
————————————————
After the Anti-Austerity rally in George Square on 20th June, we Wingers retired to a wee pub near the entrance to the station, for cold beverages.
We got talking to a couple of guys who had been at a Scottish Amateur Football Association meeting, mainly because they saw all our Wings and Yes badges.
It was the first time I actually met a guy who said,
“I’ve been a Labour voter all my life, the party for the working man. So, it was with a heavy heart that I voted SNP, for the first time, in the general election. I didn’t leave the Labour Party – the Labour Party has left us.”
And they still don’t get it. Once again Rev Stu has sowed the seeds with an insightful article, but the flowers that have sprung up in all the comments below it are the real diamonds.
(Apologies for mixing metaphors!)
http://wingsoverscotland.com/a-thing-that-might-happen-next-month/
The Establishment includes the seriously rich from countries across the globe with the stinking rich Americans holding great influence over the financial and political institutions in almost all countries. (Even a Dud like Gordon Brown can pick up circa $1,000,000 on a US Speaking Tour)
Unfortunately society has been nurtured to accept that wealth is power and all too many people are happy to trade off their beliefs, morals and principles for some pieces of silver doing their Master’s bidding.
The BBC, ITV, Sky, Channel 4, Telegraph, Guardian, Sun. Mirror, etc are all owned by the Establishment and purchased purely to influence the masses to stick with the Neo-Liberalism
that continues to see their wealth sore to new heights.
Every Labour leader who can still walk has come out against Corbyn. Every Tory, every TV Channel and Radio Station, every English News Paper all out to stop anyone threatening to see their gravy train hitting the buffers.
I just watched Channel 4 link Corbyn to corrupt Russia and Putin
with the ace in the pack an accusation that he supports IS.
With 2 weeks to the loaded leadership vote, you will see the power brokers go into overdrive to turn Corbyn into a Trotskyite Nazi loving Terrorist with Scottish Ancestry.
He will not be allowed to win no matter what!
Its where the real money is.
Democracy requires a fair opportunity for all opinions to be allowed expressed and discussed.
UK Democracy has been a long time dead, but only those who were searching for a pulse, have come to realise it.
Paula Rose
What? Oh. Please keep up. 🙂
You had me checking my last post for typos and you know that isn’t my skill set. 😉
@CameronB
Surely it should be Paula Ose if you can’t tell your ‘r’s from your elbow 🙂
Effijy,
“Unfortunately society has been nurtured…to do their Master’s bidding.”
That is now a globalised FACT.
It is a sad state of affairs, at a bad time for the human race.
Tam Dalyell has spoken folks the SNP landslide was a protest vote by disillusioned Slab supporters and there will not be a second vote for 10 years. That’s us telt.
chris kilby says:
Just watched the bafflingly smug, smirking and self-satisfied John “Morons/Mad Dog” McTernan on Channel Four News and I have but one question:
On a scale of one to ten, just how punchable is John McTernan?
Last time I checked Chris it was sitting at around 27.75. 😀
More O/T
The Orkney4 “The People Versus Carmichael” are needing your help http://tinyurl.com/qdjp67h
Donate here http://tinyurl.com/omh7mq8
handclapping
Boom boom. 😉
It’s like in slow motion with the funny deep slurred voices
Nooooaarghh Euuoogh Laaybbuuurr Vaaalyooos
Twisted metal, smoke, and people swaying uncontrollably with spittle spraying in various directions
Need a Graphic? or was that enough!
Paula Rose / CameronB Brodie
Posted in ‘cameo’! 😉
Moving up the Labour charts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m86ae_e_ptU
Somebody has a book to sell.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13617423.Nick_Robinson_condemns__Putin_like__protests_against_indyref_coverage/
Nick Robinson has compared protests against his coverage of the Scottish independence referendum to something out of Vladimir Putin’s Russia.
The outgoing BBC political editor hit out at “intimidation and bullying” of journalists during an appearance at the Edinburgh International Book Festival to promote his latest book Election Diary.
When you see the way that Kendall, Cooper and Burnham (along with others in London Labour’s hierarchy) are queueing up to vilify and demonise Corbyn, it makes me wonder why anyone would want to vote for politicians who are prepared to act in such a lowlife manner.
These people want to run a political party but don’t want to abide by the rules of democracy. When are the Labour voting public going to wake up to what the Labour Party has become?
Remember they used to have t shirt vendors in Blackpool etc??
Remember the one with the wee frog saying “I’m so happy I could just shit”??
Well after watching the demise and death of labour..
I would consider sitting upwind if I were you…. Lol
Re the Normans, the upper classes and the Establishment. They’ve already had a One Thousand Years Reich. That’s a long time to practice and perfect whatever it takes to ensure their rule is ongoing and not to be stopped.
There have been people questioning the veracity of the result of the Scottish referendum since it was announced. Some have replied that it wouldn’t be possible, while others have said that ‘they’ wouldn’t do that. Personally, until there is concrete evidence of impropriety I have to go with mibbeez naw. But…
From all that we have witnessed since before the referendum and after…
And now the Labour leadership contest, which is, in reality, an English issue rather than one UK-wide. Tales of plots and coups should Corbyn be elected – from the Tory MSM as well as that that is supposedly Labour. What was termed Project Fear by Scottish independence supporters, laughed at and dismissed by unionists… now on full display UK-wide working against democracy, working against someone who might not keep his party on the right – of a supposedly left-wing party – by his own party in collusion with the right-wing MSM…!
As to the above, are we to believe that those organs of the state, MI5, GCHQ and others less well-known, whose raison d’etre is the protection and continuation of the state by any all means have not been, and are not still working to influence outcomes to their satisfaction?
The behind the scenes behaviour of GCHQ, the USA’s NSA and other assorted secret agencies would still be unknown if it were not for Snowdon’s whistleblowing at the fear of his life. Are we to be so naive as to believe that, since being outed once, they have been and are now playing to some set of Gentlemen’s Rules and all is above board…?
The Scottish referendum? The Labour leadership election?
Keep an open mind. But, be sceptical, be very sceptical.
Re Normans. Yes, Robert the Bruce was descended from Norman stock, but he was by no means Norman.
Bannockburn was fought 250 years after the Norman conquest, so calling him Norman is like calling Americans British, as they are mostly descended from British stock and their independence was only about 250 years ago.
I think he was Scottish by 1314.
Corbyn wins and Labour might be finished, if Corbyn doesn’t win looks like they might be finished. Not great news for any anti Tory movement in England but a good reason for Scotland to get out at the next earliest opportunity.
Well that’s Corbyn buggered.
http://www.fabians.org.uk/under-corbyns-electoral-plan-prospects-for-victory-look-bleak/
The Fabian analysis has looked at Labour’s electoral mountain to climb from both ends of the telescope. Any strategy to win the next election will require Labour winning over a lot of people who voted Tory in 2015. That is a fact all the leadership candidates must come to terms with
I think a Labour split is inevitable. There is no way Peter Mandelson and Jeremy Corbyn share anything but the most basic of values, like not kicking your gran. They simply do not belong in the same party.
The point is Labour has only held together because of the cyncial and corrupt contrivance that is the UK electoral system. Splitting into two (or more?) parties would make much more sense in the long run and should – certainly could – precipitate a radical change to a more representative system, like STV. Which would could bring an alliance of the Left – a Corbynesque Labour, Greens, Plaid and SNP either working with or against a bellwether New Labour and Lib-Dem “centrist” grouping who would vote with a Tory/UKIP alliance. Like most modern European democracies.
Of course the Tories will resist electoral reform but I doubt the toxic cocktail of their arrogance, complacency, EU scores being settled and, most of all, their cynical economic policies catching up with them will mean the 2020 election is far from the foregone conclusion it seems at the moment – remember how impregnable New Labour appeared in 2005.
Likewise the road to independence is neither inevitable nor easily traversed. Deep thinking is required, folks, along with a keen eye on the currents as we enter the most tumultuous period in British and European politics for 40 years or more: Specifically, just as “SNP Bad” doesn’t cut it for Labour, neither does “SNP Good” work for a healthy Scottish polity that can win independence.
O/T
http://caltonjock.com/2015/08/20/air-pollution-tens-of-thousands-of-early-deaths-in-the-uk-not-our-problem-say-the-captains-of-industry/
However… I just can’t help but think that this whole demise of labour has been contrived from start to finish.
How many people deserted Labour after they became so toxic under Bliar???
Then they promote that shambles Brown to slime minister…
Wars for oil. Privatisation. The banking scandals. The paedophile accusations and protection of paedophiles. The dismantling of Scotland and it’s industry. The selling off of the gold and many other disgraces too numerous to mention..
Then Ed Millipede becomes the leader of the party. He couldn’t lead a drunken choir after the savoy!! Potential prime minister?? Monty fuck!!
Then he comes out with the “I’d rather see a Tory government than work with the SNP!!”
Then they lose Scotland completely and forever with their highly toxic brand of “politics” which basically had no principles or progressive thought.
Millipede stands down and takes up a bacon sandwich eating course or whatever..
Then they abstain on the welfare bill. Condemning many thousands of undeserving and innocent people to a life of abject poverty, misery and despair..
Then you have the latest debacle over Corbyn etc and everything that is going on regarding it…
Plus they still have that odious little cretin McTiernan on board….
Anyone else thinking that the blue tories will strengthen their majority over the coming months at by elections in England and will rule over us and destroy us for the foreseeable future due to the absolute meltdown of red tories ??? And that the whole thing stinks of corruption and greed and has worked out perfectly to plan?
Or am I just one of the two million or so idiots that botten Michael Kelly referred to???
Fireproofjim
Never forget that Bruce was born at Turnberry, his mother being from an old Celtic family, she was Margaret Countess of Carrick and spoke Gaelic as did her son Robert. She was quite a woman allegedly holding Bruce’s father prisoner until he promised to marry her. Scottish women eh? nothing much has changed there.
Ironic from a party that accused Salmond of being a control freak and a Stalinist.
Andy Dewar says:
“Jesus Christ what next I really do feel sorry for Labour supporters”
Nope. No sympathy. That party lost all credibility with the Iraq war and their attitudes to unbridled banking. And that was a while ago now!
I have to be honest, I’m not sure what English Labour supporters should have done, years ago. Simply abstain and ignore politics, is what a lot of them have done. Maybe they should have looked more closely at the English Greens.
In Scotland there are various parties of the centre/left Labour folks should have moved to before now.
Yet the polls say 20% of Scots still support these charlatans. That, I can’t get my head round.
Just heard Scotland 2014 saying it’s parochial to have Scots running the arts! Whit the ferk.
They said 2 previous leaders were English because they want the best. Who decided they were the best. The anglicisation Of Scotland continues mother England will decide our culture.
They think it’s all over. It is now.
http://www.fabians.org.uk/under-corbyns-electoral-plan-prospects-for-victory-look-bleak/
The Fabian analysis has looked at Labour’s electoral mountain to climb from both ends of the telescope. Any strategy to win the next election will require Labour winning over a lot of people who voted Tory in 2015. That is a fact all the leadership candidates must come to terms with.
Lots of good reading here tonight…
The historical perspective is important, to lay out our basic ‘rights’ and the wrongs of greed and power.
And we ‘write’ those wrongs with the pen not the sword.
@ Big Jock: 10:57
That is what McCarthyites do, though. Makes sense seen like that, no?
totally o/T folks – I’ve been away/offline for a bit and just want to forward on a couple of wee compliments to the yew choob team for their latest video that I re-blogged here a couple of weeks ago when it first came out https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2015/08/09/scottish-nationalists-now/
Ben, that was both hilarious and inspired!
Re: the video – Many Thanks to all involved in its conception/making!
This is one of the best things I’ve ever seen.
I hope the yew choob people look in or someone can forward this on to them. thanks to anyone who can
Completely O/T but has there been a lot more Union propaganda in the media lately, it just looks like most programs have British in the title, or am I going off half baked!
Not sure I follow Fiona? Thought Mcarthyism was planting disinformation to create false dichotomy.
Andrew McLean says:
Completely O/T but has there been a lot more Union propaganda in the media lately, it just looks like most programs have British in the title, or am I going off half baked!
Only if you are Britannically half baked Andrew. 😀
Andrew: “most programs have British in the title”
Correct. Drumming into us we British, first and foremost.
A lot are crappy ‘list’ programmes – there’s nothing more boring than a list of things – where a producer gathers together a list on a theme interspersed with some puerile comments from a handful of celebs speaking to camera.
YouTube has created a dozen series made up of countless YouTube video snatches.
They use to be called ‘The Best Of So-and-So’. List shows are plentiful because they are incredibly cheap to make and to sell.
Andrew you are not paranoid. They are popping up everywhere. Very British Problems. That is the biggest pile of crap ever.
They are not British problems. They are just human problems. The tag British is just thrown in.
Labour will announce the winner without publishing the votes cast. Seemples.
@Dal riata 10:35
“And now the Labour leadership contest, which is, in reality, an English issue rather than one UK-wide. Tales of plots and coups should Corbyn be elected – from the Tory MSM as well as that that is supposedly Labour. What was termed Project Fear by Scottish independence supporters, laughed at and dismissed by unionists… now on full display UK-wide working against democracy, working against someone who might not keep his party on the right – of a supposedly left-wing party – by his own party in collusion with the right-wing MSM…!”
It was actually Better Together activists that coined the term Project Fear, and pretty sure it was the North Britain branch of Labour at that, and we saw how the media aided and abetted the state with SNPbad stories, in fact the airwaves were full and print media was just as bad, even though the Yes Campaign and the SNP proved a lot of their bunkum outright lies, and we are seeing the same with Corbyn, who I think will be good for Labour down south, but he has already stated that he is against Indyref2 and more than likely against one of Keir Hardies values ie Home Rule, but would still rather someone with a set of cojones that wont just adopt or outdo tory policies, and he has shown that by going against the whip on a lot of anti working man, austerity and war mongering policies of Blairite Labour
Thurr awe stoatin doon thoan asylum brae, wae yoan Fun Boay Three blairin, ‘Yoan hauf-wits huv tackin ower thoan nut-hoose’.
Furrits in ah poke.
So have they begun saying Corbyn suffers from Vascular Dementia or Alzheimer’s yet or indeed Adolf’s love child?
@ The Moidart, 10:48pm, 20/8/15
Yes – a young relative working in Yorkshire (temporarily he hopes) reports that, along with the anti-Scottish sentiments to which he is subjected on a daily basis, is general racism, bigotry and ultra right-wing rhetoric. People not as “they” are “othered”. Not everyone, of course, is like that, but, he is horrified and depressed at how so many are turning against fellow human beings not realising we are all pawns in the power game. It feels very foreign to him.
Fear turning to hatred, fuelled by newspapers, tv and the most odious government I can recall along with a complicit Labour Party. It certainly takes eyes off the ball. Planned? Definitely a means to an end.
Betty Boop.. Absolutely disgusting isn’t it?? They’re employing the old divide and conquer tactic. Scotland has been divided by years of course due to the pish rhetoric that denotes being a supporter of one of the two “big”Glasgow football clubs for many people “big” my arse by the way!!
But now in Scotland it seems that for many, even these petty and pathetic rivalries have been put to one side as we collude and rise together in a common cause. Independence from the grotesque power hungry corrupt and morally bankrupt entity that is Westmonster!!
I have been in England many times over the years, not so much recently I admit. But I will say this. I won’t be back anytime soon. I have many friends in England. Very nice people and England has some very beautiful places too, like Scotland. But it’s apparent now that there is a definite swing to the far right and anything “Scotch” is poison to many South of the border. They are falling into the MSM rhetoric in their droves and see us as a foreign entity.
I’ve said all along Scotland shall only get independence when the people want it. The people of England that is.. And I think the case for Scottish independence is gathering momentun quicker in England than Scotland. I’m convinced we shall get what we desire someday. But at what cost to people like your young relative down South??
P.S.. My theory is solely based on the information gained by reading comments left after articles in newspaper columns and the rhetoric spun by complete morons such as the MP for Cambridge South or whatevers maiden speech referring to what took place after the battle of Dunbar when the remnants of the Scottish army who weren’t murdered or starved to death were put into slavery. And stories like Bettys young relative of course. It’s not a new phenomenon though. It’s always existed in the eyes of many. NF. EDL etc. Once they strip us completely they will ditch us. Better together?? How’s that??
Regarding that picture up top: By Christ, Brian Donohoe and Margaret Curran have really let themselves go since the General Election in May…..
Some folk are speaking about Corbynites splitting off into a new party. Unless Corbyn himself did it, and took several sitting MPs with him, then it’s probably a non-starter. And from George Kerevan’s article the other day, it sounds to me like Corbyn is one of those folk who will never ditch the Labour party, thanks to a misplaced loyalty that the party doesn’t show for him or folk like him.
Whatever happens though, it’s all incredibly funny to watch.
Dal Riata wrote:
“Regarding that picture up top: By Christ, Brian Donohoe and Margaret Curran have really let themselves go..”
I was thinking more along the lines of Major & Thatcher.
🙂
_____
@ The Moidart (1.17am).
The division is right throughout football, not just Glasgow.
By its very nature football is the perfect vehicle for division.
And the division was there long before football.
It’s called religion and to some football is now their religion.
And in Scotland, as we all know, we had the Clan system.
Perfect for divide and rule – Hence the mess we’re in.
Murray wins! Phew…
Good morning all. 🙁
Mosstrooper said, “Never forget that Bruce was born at Turnberry, his mother being from an old Celtic family, she was Margaret Countess of Carrick and spoke Gaelic as did her son Robert. She was quite a woman allegedly holding Bruce’s father prisoner until he promised to marry her. Scottish women eh? nothing much has changed there.”
Indeed, and for those Gaelic-in-the-Lowlands-deniers (despite all the place-name evidence) we should remember that the last speaker of Carrick Gaelic, Margaret McMurray, only died c. 1760.
Robert Burns was born in 1759, which gives us a sense of perspective. And Arran Gaelic seems to have finally died out as recently as the 1930s.
I wonder if NS is a distant relation of Margaret? Strong women.
In a nutshell it doesn’t really matter who wins the Leadership of the Labour Party now as the Party is well and truly finished …. in its present state. The Hardies (plus the Unions) will have to break away from the Blairites if it wants to continue to exist.
Along the way we have three wishy washy egotistical but cognitively deprived numpties vying for power and in the process all castigating one another: Highlighting how truly divided the Labour Party is now. Great, EH! Embarrassing, EH! If any one of them becomes Leader of the Labour Party it will fall prey to becoming brothers in arms to the Tory Party …. and their policies. And we all bl**dy well know that as per previous experience. So suffice to say Labour under Burnham, Cooper or Kendall is a vote for the Tories.
We have one man vying to use his power to ultimately, as he says, better the lives of millions of others. He may become leader but for how long? His so-called colleagues … enemies … such as McTernan (and hundreds of influential others) are preparing to ‘oust’ him out. If they don’t they’ll block him at every turn and bully him into oblivion. And well I have my doubts that he would ever have made a good leader at all never mind the great (exceptional) leader we really need to combat the Tories at this time. To my mind Corbyn has just become a total distraction to, a messiah figure to, a once great political party facing its end game. Corbyn, warts and all, has become the hero at the end of Labours life support system for those who can’t bear to see a loved one die. They, true Labour supporters, just don’t want to turn it off.
And of course we have the Labour Party in Scotland. The wee branch office of a company (that never ever had any respect / regard for them at all) that is now totally bankrupt. A branch office full of hypocrites and liars such as Dugdale and Baillie to name but a few who will carry on trying to con the Scots for no other reason than to make sure that they get their pay cheque at the end of the month.
We can go on and on discussing the McTernans, Mones, Dugdales and so on on here for ever more. Is that really helping our cause other than exposing their hypocracy and lies?
I want to live in an Independent Scotland. That’s my main focus in life now. I want to know what I can do to achieve my aim. I have to know what obstacles I face. What are they? As far as I can make out it’s not the Labour Party or any Political Party at all in fact. We can bleat on all we like about the Broons, Darlings, Baillies, Dugdales or whatever on here. The MSM is our real enemy and we have to do no more than focus on them / it. Let’s just come up with some ideas as to how to deal with that.
We could have become an Independent country last year if we had excluded all but Scottish born resident Scots. We didn’t and paid the ultimate price. More so hundreds of thousands of Scottish children did.
I for one (of many) am sick and tired of listening to individuals who want to include rUK migrants (MANY of whom are elderly and are bleeding Scottish tax-payers dry) who voted, 74%, against us becoming Independent. We know of course by checking migrant data that the ‘flow’ of elderly rUK migrants to Scotland is increasing rapidly. Scotland had become an absolute haven for many reaching their twi-light years with all that entails … hospital / home care, Alzheimers support, medical prescriptions, GP visits and so on.
Statistics tell us that we have to accommodate more and more migrants from the EU and further afield now to support this ever increasing elderly Scottish born and rUK migrant population. Fifty per cent of non UK migrants who relocated to Scotland voted no for Scottish Independence last year.
70,000 Scots, mostly young, are leaving Scotland every year and are being replaced far beyond the figure of 70,000 by mostly elderly rUK individuals …. an ever ending stream (torrent).
The problems we face in achieving our Independence are in the main …. media bias and the views (votes) held by migrants locating to Scotland. Labour Party henchmen and women are the least of our worries.
As a child growing up outside the UK I understood the UK as England.
England was a place that people often reluctantly had to go to for employment.
There was opportunity there.
My youthful perception of the place was conflicted. T.V. shows would market the idea that it was an exciting and welcoming place but then any English visitors to my country would contradict that perception, with the exception of the young cool fun guy that worked with my Dad one Summer.
He was Scottish though.
I understood that basically even though the English thought themselves a little better than us despite them having a Queen and castles and everything, they were fairly the same as our people. Hard working and trying to make the best of it.
There is a luxury building being planned in London now which has a huge elevated glass swimming pool linking two pillars of desirable apartments. The pool will span a good distance and from the ground you will make out the swimmer through the glass and water. From ground level it might appear the swimmer is swimming through the sky.
This is not being constructed by a king or Queen but private enterprise. My first gut reaction was Yeah! I want a splash in that. And then that thought was quickly followed by how obscene this is with impoverished communities and the austerity food-banks we find in most cities.
If all the Labour leadership hopefuls had the chance to swim a few lengths who would dive right in, who would test the water?
Sounds like clypegate all over again
shiregirl says
“Labour have totally lost it. They are Royston Vasey.
Labour voters, come join us. Labours loss is our gain.”
If they offer you black pudding WHATEVER YOU DO DONT EAT IT! 🙁
____________________________________________________________
David says
“Sounds a bit cult like to me.”
If they offer you Kool-Aid WHATEVER YOU DO DONT DRINK IT!
_____________________________________________________________
Chris Kilby @ 7.27
Dont give the sod the opportunity to point to cybernat abuse Chris…
But he is a ten!
_____________________________________________________________
Macart says@ 7.52
What Macart says!
Morning Rev.
Great to see you finally making it onto the pages of the National.Why they have been so slow on the uptake,who knows.
BBC radio Scotland in the morning- interview with Marco Biagi on the council tax. The programme begins with a lovingly put together montage of clips to highlight the SNP’s commitment to changing the council tax (or rather failure to fulfill that comittment).
I thought I had tuned into a PPB. Eventually Marco comes on and is able to point out opposition during the minority government which tied their hands but was ever, when I listen to BBC radio Scotland eager for information and discussion, all we get is an attack piece.
There we go.
http://www.thenational.scot/news/15000-donated-by-wings-over-scotland-supporters-for-mars-bar-thief.6616
Well done all.
Dr Ew: “I think a Labour split is inevitable.”
I can’t see how Labour can continue as a single party when so many MPs have embraced the worst of neo-liberalism, and their entire Scottish contingent (that was) is against real powers for Scotland.
It would be better to have a Labour party that is anti-austerity and Home-Rule, and another that is ‘We’re not full-on Ukip or Tory, just a wee bit.’
Just having Corbyn apologise for the calamity that was the Iraq war will cause a chasm to open up in Labour.
We have MPs determined to keep secret everything they do, answerable to no one, with Chilcot hidden away until we don’t care anymore.
The nobility in Scotland in the middle ages were of Flemish descent not Norman,that is why they were at daggers drawn with the “English”
Please read the works of Beryl Platts to see the very interesting connections between Flanders and Scotland.
Petra said,”The problems we face in achieving our Independence are in the main …. media bias and the views (votes) held by migrants locating to Scotland. Labour Party henchmen and women are the least of our worries.”
If/when there is another referendum, Petra, the Scottish Government would be wise to have a residency rule of some kind, say five years. Having said that, if more “native” Scots had taken off their blinkers and opened their ears during the referendum, we wouldn’t be even discussing nullifying the effect of health/benefits tourism.
I think the increasingly hysterical tone of the media bias we face (also visible in The Corbyn Affair) is wearing away public trust in the Fourth Estate. Huge drops in sales of the Dead Tree Press and the large-scale cancellation of the licence fee seem to back this up. And One Man In Bath has had a massive influence on Scotland’s reawakening. The ripple effect of this site cannot be underestimated: it is shared widely on social media and I always direct waverers to it in discussion.
My main worry is the bad faith of Westminster. The cynicism and complete injustice of the Longannet situation is just one example. I think one Winger recently was only half joking when he talked of our runways being bombed in the event of a “wrong result”. Desperate and corrupt regimes do that sort of thing. What happens if We say Yes, They say No? I don’t think it’s so unlikely that they would try strong arm tactics.
…….and I don’t think Westminster would give a flying fruit bat about any international disapproval if it disrespected the will of the Scottish people. Rather, it would bolster its xenophobia.
Difficult to know if BBC’s Nick Robinson is contrite or arrogant about his infamously insulting question to Salmond, and Salmond’s consequent answer.
On Radio interviews about his book he’s contrite, on book interviews to press he complains of getting bullied.
No mention of indulging in black propaganda to keep his bosses happy. So I’ll go with arrogant bastard.
Worrying piece in the National today about demographic change: more people are moving to Scotland than moving out of it, which on the face of it is good news, as rising population generally indicates an improving economy; yet the bad news is that 60% of them are from rUK.
Which does not bode well for indyref2. We know that 3/4 rUK voters voted No. So growing rUK numbers might make a Yes vote less likely, not more likely.
40,000 young Scots aged 16-24 leave Scotland each year, never to return, which is roughly equivalent to the number of rUK immigrants.
@gillie no comments allowed on that Nick Robinson article I see.
@petra I’m beginning to think the SG need to bring in laws about free NHS, that you have to be resident for 3 years, similar to tuition fees, before being eligible.
Sometimes I’m hopeful and sometimes I despair whether we will ever get Indy.
Saw that comment under the National’s article about Wings fundraiser. What a mean spirited bastard!
Rev :
Incase others have not already pointed this out – just seen a very useful clip on BBC News today around 9.05am with Comedian Jeremy Hardy. Berating Labour attempts to rig leadership vote
Insightful coverage of his opinion and observations of how Labour is heading for permanent opposition.
Calm and surgical dissection of the problems Labour have and how
the voters see them and the Tories as kind of 2 sides of the same discredited coin.
Worth a watch and possible use here on WoS
Nick Robinson is not contrite: he is changing the subject.
His emphasis is on “intimidation” of “journalists. His thesis is that it is perfectly fine for journalists to lie and that they should not be subject to protest for lying. Which is pretty much where the MSM stands, using the undoubted importance of a “free press” as justification for propaganda rather than reportage.
Man is an elite stooge, and should not have a platform at all. Free press my bahooky
Sunniva (gun?) “Worrying piece in the National today about demographic change”
I can understand the paranoia, there’s substance to it, but keep in mind everything the British Establishment flung at Scotland during the run-up to the Referendum was easy to predict, even the forces of ‘democracy’ ganging up to deny us a share of the pound we’ve carried over 300 years wasn’t a real shock, just disbelief.
The big surprise was how many Scots, eminent and ordinary that counselled against their own nation and its people. When you have your own people bullying and fear mongering it’s bound to have a bad effect on people, knocking our confidence to hell.
Only a few with the loot have buggered off to, for them, pleasanter lands.
Petra and Sunniva highlight a real problem for the future and it will be tricky to solve without smears of blood and soil. It is an insidious modern day Plantation of Scotland against a background of youth depopulation.
Sell up an expensive house in southeast and retire to cheaper and maybe better accommodation and increased Scottish social benefits (prescriptions, care, travel, fuel) and a fond and loyal regard for the concept of Team Great Britain.
Economic migrants as the UK government would call them if they had to cross a stretch of water.
@ Sunniva 9:12.
It may well be that there are people in other parts of this dissunited kingdom have decided they do not like what they are see and experience happening where they were.
Do not believe it will ever change, and have decided that Scotland looks like a better prospect. A possible side effect of NS making such a good impression in the GE debates.
Potential Yes voters perhaps.
Stoker.. Well said. Couldn’t agree more. Sky sports and football stadiums have replaced churches. Greed and celebrity are the new Gods.
I used the “big” two as coming from Glasgow I was brought up with it. Both clubs are happy to win “Scottish
” titles. Both are happy to represent “Scotland” in Europe. Both are happy to take the “Scottish” money. The butchers apron far outnumbers the Saltire at Ibrox. And the tricolour outnumbers the Saltire at Celtic Park. Celtic had an Irish tricolour integrated into their strips. Rangers once had an orange away strip to apparently commemorate their Dutch links. We all know exactly what Dutch links they were commemorating. One is British and the other is Irish. Both are guilty of using “historical heritage” to exploit fans and earn fortunes. Divide and conquer.
Nice pic in The National Stu. but I have to say you do look a wee bit scary! Lol!
” Calgacus says:
21 August, 2015 at 8:56 am
The nobility in Scotland in the middle ages were of Flemish descent not Norman,that is why they were at daggers drawn with the “English”
Please read the works of Beryl Platts to see the very interesting connections between Flanders and Scotland.”
The links hold true in certain Scots dialects, Doric has a lot of words similar to Flemish and Germanic races, and trade links between the Low Countries and Scotlands North East go back just as long when herring and such like went east over the North Sea
https://archive.is/QQl5m is from the Guardian.
Seems the picture being painted isn’t quite as cut and dried. These are the £3 memberships which any competent party might verify before granting membership to. If they’ve already been accepted then it’s a bit late unless evidence can be found, suspicion is not enough, that they’re a member of a rival political party.
The bit that struck me though was emails that imply that even if you should get a ballot through the post then you shouldn’t bother to return it as it’d just be rejected. Sounds a bit suspect as it’d be possible for a truly devious party to claim their email had been hacked and that particular potential member wasn’t excluded after all. It’d also save Labour the embarrassment of having to acknowledge just how many votes they’d decided to reject. If it were me I’d ignore any such email as being from someone playing silly buggers and send my ballot in regardless.
Naw he diznae Joe, look at his eyes…he’s got a mischievous humour about him…it’s as clear as day…jist ignore his scary beard… 😉
@Petra and Sunniva
Perhaps, perhaps not. Reasons for moving to Scotland may come into play and make many of our new fellow citizens highly approachable. It could be that listed amongst their reasons for moving to Scotland (apart from cheaper property prices), are reasons such as services provided by the Scottish government, or in fact simply better government.
Perhaps some see the wind of change in Scotland and quite like the idea of being out from under a poor government system, with entrenched, self serving and archaic attitudes.
That would make our new citizens an opportunity, rather than simply another hurdle.
You never can tell. 🙂
@Golfnut
Snap! 😀
As per and tucked away bottom of Rancid Graun’s usual UKOK fraud sheet but this is what Macternan says makes JC unfit for high office.
“Channel 4 News has unearthed footage of Corbyn in 2014 comparing the actions of Isis to US forces retaking the Iraqi city of Fallujah in 2004. “Yes they are brutal, yes some of what they have done is quite appalling, likewise what the Americans did in Fallujah and other places is appalling,” Corbyn told Russia Today.”
When Bomber Bliar, Crash Broon, Flipper Darling and co are all standing in the dock here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court
but it’s never going to happen. USA/UKOK war machine good, any other bad.
Joemg: Nice pic in The National Stu. I have to say you do look a wee bit scary!
Rasputin’s wee brother. 🙂
As all those no voters move away south away from the 🙂 snp dictators and bad cybernats 🙂 ,those who replace them must know the general direction of politics in Scotland,unless they have been living in a bubble. They must know we are heading eventually to independence.
That prospect doesn’t seem to be putting them off and a swap of no voters for possible future yes voters seems fair to me. Welcome to all.
BBCs having Nick Robinson on shortly, calls allowed. Anti SNP rhetoric started before he comes on. Feel free folks!
If 75% of rUK voters voted NO then surely due to the disproportionate percentage suggests these voters had their own agenda and a vested interest in keeping Scotland subjugated to their native country and therefore not voting for what they believe is in the best interests of Scotland or the Scottish people.
It’s kinda like giving turkeys the vote on whether we should celebrate Christmas every year.
The vast majority of the people will be English and I hasten to add I am not in any way anti English I have many English friends but I don’t they should be allowed to vote on Scotlands sovereignty
I understand we need to be inclusive but that’s inclusive to the point of stupidity and the fact 75% of rUK voters voted NO illustrates that.
Nick Robinson is much more than a BBC liar, he’s a thug and a bully. Project Fear was created to bully Scotland and it was all concocted by thugs, like Nick Robinson.
The UKOK rewards are there. Nick Robinson is now BBC radio 4 flagship presenter, hacks like gorgeous pouting Laura Kuenssberg is now editor of BBC flagship Newsnight. She got it for monstering Scottish democracy. Current Newsnight editor Ian Katz came from deputy editing staggering hypocrite creep show The Guardian, historic bunch of thugs, with silly facial hair that hits Scotland with endless reams of this
http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/salmondbell.jpg
Do we really need to go anywhere near neo fascism UKOK style at the Heil, Times, Independent, Torygraph, Hootsman, Express, Press and Journal:D
A wee back and forth tweeting here wi Nick Robinson coming out with:
“What you call “anti establishment” runs govt in Scotland. Governing parties protesting outside a media HQ not a good look”
In response to George Monbiot’s tweet signalling his article in the Guardian:
“Establishment unites to crush popular movements. If movements protest, they’re accused of bullying”
https://twitter.com/bbcnickrobinson/status/634655016217911300
AngusBMcNeil seems to be weighing in with McWhirter too….
The point being the Pacific Quay protests were not organised by our Government, and weren’t attended by solely SNP supporters…I know I was there…
Nick Robinson is digging an even deeper hole for himself with this kind of commentary…
First he says he ‘regrets’ the interview with Alex, yesterday he’s on about “Putin-like protests’…and he’s pushing this further today with this crap!
Yeah Nick, the BBC and it’s journalists weren’t biased then and aren’t biased today! Agent provocateur Nick? BBC™
I cannot believe Nick ‘I am an idiot’ Robinson is actually trolling Scotland on Twitter. What a Twat.
Seriously, if anyone who supports Independence is still paying the BBC i.e. Nick Robinson’s wages, they need their head seeing to.
500,000 English immigrants in Scotland using our devolved public services, Scottish NHS,Scottish Police ,Scottish Education,Scottish Housing,Scottish Water etc.
I do not mind them using these services but we in Scotland should be being compensated by English equivalent services.
Rev Stu, Re: your picture in the National. why are you not doing a fake grin, like a Labour Candidate idiot ?, have your media people not trained you properly ?…
Wullie B at 8.56
The people from the Low Countries have long been a large component of the populations of the east of Scotland. Edward First’s sack of Berwick saw hundreds of not thousands of people from Flanders who had come to Scotland with the weaving industry slaughtered. The most obvious evidence of this is the common Scottish name Fleming and others like Webster and Burns’s Willie Wabster.
Historically Scotland had huge trade into the Low Countries and the Baltic for centuries and we wandered Europe as friends of everybody until we got tied up with imperial, warmongering England
Sorry, call in with Nick Robinson, was sure there was as they had two calls on 1, saying the BBC was bias, and then before Nick, a caller calling the SNP a cult. Therefore I assumed, wrongly, that
calls were being allowed.
Quite cleat that the pricks and twats at Millbank are spiralling into madness as they see their nice little earners come to a grinding halt.
It just keeps getting bettter and better !
If I apply to join an organisation and my application is rejected, shouldn’t any application fee I’ve sent be reimbursed unless it was clearly stated at the time of application that either all or part of it was non-refundable, eg as an administrative charge.
If I do not include this information, but invite you to join BackverandahOrg, send a fee, and then reject your application but keep the fee, isn’t this technically fraud?
@Albaman says: 20 August, 2015 at 7:52 pm:
” … I to am very familiar with Kelty, although I am very carefull, hide in a shop doorway (eclipse!) to make sure Wullie Rennie is no aboot!!”
Trouble with that, Albaman, is that while ducking into doorways to avoide Wee Wullie you are likely to find yourself hiding in the same doorway as Alex Rowley who is also avoiding Wee Wullie.
“I digress, I entirely agree with your former post, regarding the Normans, ect, only to point out that these dictatorial Normans NEVER left, they are, to a large degree what we regards as “the ruling classes”!.
The point I’m making is that the Angles, Jutes, Saxons, Vikings, Norsemen and Normans are really just different factions of the same lot of Germanic tribes and they have been, “The Establishment”, ever since the Romans left South Britain. BTW: Both Bruce and Wallace were Norman Knights.
The historic difference between North and south Britain is that the north Britons were never conquered by any incoming foreigners. Not even the Scots who we were told came from Ireland.
This is utter rubbish for the truth is that, in those days, Scotland was covered in the Great Caledonian Forest and the superhighways of the time were the seas and rivers. The Scots were inhabitants all around both sides of the Irish Sea. This is born out by recent archaeological digs on remote Scottish islands and sea stacks where it was shown that the artefacts discovered pre-dated those found in Ireland. That suggests the movement was from, not to, Scotland. For heaven’s sake there is less than 25 miles separating Ireland and Scotland at the narrowest point.
So the North Britons were not conquered by the immigrant tribes but were instead won over by integration. For example Robert Bruce was the result of a marriage between a native North Briton and a Norman Knight.
In fact the respective gene pools in England & Scotland are mainly identical and mainly from ancient stone age Britons. The real differences are not genetic but cultural.
The southern lot having been always conquered by their immigrant elite rulers while we northerners have always resisted invaders but welcomed others to come to join us – as long as they integrate and become Scots.
For example, is there any significant settlement in Scotland that does not have its Italian Chippie, Ice Cream Parlour or Garage still owned by a family of Italian extraction?
Seems to me the only lot that are long term immigrants to Scotland who have never quite become really 100% Scottish are both sides of the Irish sectarian influx(s) due in the main to the Irish famines and troubles. One lot waving Irish Tricolours and the other Union Flags with the Red Hand of Ulster emblazoned upon them.
These Irish sectarians have been here for yonks and they have still more allegiance to their Irish roots and politics than to Scotland.
Mr Robinson appears to be seeking a. negative feedback b. publicity
I reckon simply turning our back on him and let him enjoy a deafening silence may be an apt response. Much like the BBC and the rest of the UK media, they neither speak to us nor for us.
Let them all dangle for a story. We gave them more than a fair chance over the past few years to act like journalists and a proper outlet for all points of view. They made their bed and now they can lie in it.
The best response we can deliver to their trolling should be at the ballot.
Robinson:
– asked Salmond a ridiculously loaded and insulting question in a way he would not dare do with his London masters
– continued to harangue Salmond throughout the latter’s extended and detailed answer in a way he would not dare do with his London masters
– lied in a voice over of hugely edited footage later on BBC news that ‘Salmond did not answer my question’.
Oh, we know exactly who the bullies and propagandists are, Niok.
Just on Sky News, Burnam calling an emergency meeting, he claims large scale infiltration of Tories voting for Colbyn.
They are determined to stop him, one way or the other. They think voters are blind, and stupid. That’s Labour for you, only Tory affiliates allowed.
Oh course the thing I’m taking away from all this is that clearly the labour party are keeping “lists” on their members….
We all know the kind of people who keep lists of names…
Off Topic:
A call has gone out for contributions to the fighting fund. Please help them if you can.
http://www.orcadian.co.uk/2015/08/people-versus-carmichael-campaign-launches-second-crowdfunding-push-ahead-of-september-hearing/
O/T
Pretty sure DB has nailed Mr Robinson here with some eloquence
http://derekbateman.co.uk/2015/08/21/over-to-you-nick/
Derek Bateman: Over to You Nick.
http://derekbateman.co.uk/2015/08/21/over-to-you-nick/
K1..Well said. I was there too after following the march from Kelvingrove park to Glasgow green with my son.
Nick Robinson
Let me be clear. I am not affiliated to any political parties. It was a protest organised through facebook as I believe. Again an entity I am not affiliated to. I saw no one there representing the SNP. No one. I was there protesting about the paedophile protecting rotten corrupt brainwashing organisation you represent. Not just as an avid believer in independence.
Can you provide proof or evidence of any kind that verifies your bizarre claims that the SNP were orchestral in this protest??
Ps.. My son was protesting against the Teletubbies. People disguised in suits and acting like complete idiots and corrupting minds. But then again.. Weren’t we all??
Just on Sky News, Burnam calling an emergency meeting, he claims large scale infiltration of Tories voting for Colbyn.
C4 news or maybe Newsnight last night said that Labour reported almost no Tory voters have been found in JC vote sign up stuff. What there is, is Green’s and LibDem’s actually voting left.
Or maybe it’s all just a bunch of lairs playing the game.
@ Wullie B,
Aye,Wullie when you hear Flemish spoken it is very similar to Scots.
Our links do indeed go back many centuries,the Lion Rampant is almost certainly of Flemish origin for one thing!
Quote of the day.
“I think we need to see earliest and fullest possible disclosure of what has been going on here.”- Alistair Carmichael on suspension some of EU grant funds.
And irony of all ironies in which newspaper – The Telegraph.
re Nick Robinson’s tweet:
‘What you call “anti establishment” runs govt in Scotland. Governing parties protesting outside a media HQ not a good look’
Dear George Monbiot.
No point asking Nick for evidence of that.
He’s a really seasoned journalist.
It’s just another “poorly chosen phrase”
You’ll see. Any minute now.
Re comment by K1 at 11:39 am
“Derek Bateman: Over to you Nick”.
Last September. Here’s a link to BBC reporter caught red-handed manipulating video in Scottish Indy Referendum.
“The BBC’s Political Editor Nick Robinson edited out an answer by Alex Salmond and told viewers the Scottish First Minister didn’t answer his question.
Two videos:—compare Nick Robinson’s version with this UNEDITED footage of what really happened.
https://tompride.wordpress.com/2014/09/11/bbc-reporter-caught-red-handed-manipulating-video-in-scottish-indy-campaign/
Here at SNP Secret Service headquarters we have been monitoring Nick Robinson for some time and as most of you already know I am agent 45 of Nippy Branch
At this time we see no need to eliminate this ("Tractor" - Ed)ous dog of the media and his imperial masters but when the revolution comes all debts of the family will be repaid
Union Jackie Burd and Robinson will be forced to undergo hideous torture eg: forced to watch Strictly come Dancing with Anne Widdicome on an endless loop “Forever”
See how they like that then “Bastirts”
Agent 45 signing off
Ooh huv ah geid the gemme away
O/T
Rev : Point of order (housekeeping)
Shouldn’t your ‘Union News’ section really just redirect people to the BBC or Nick Robinsons blog ???
Just seen a protester behind the news reporter on bbc news re the bin lorry accident with a placard saying ‘corruption in the crown office-Lesley Thomson QC’.
“Oh, we know exactly who the bullies and propagandists are, Nick.”
Quite right, Training Day, but I would add “omitting the sustained applause from foreign journalists for Alex Salmond’s speech and response to Robinson’s questions” to your list.
I think that was the day I stopped believing anything the BBC’s shrill shills said. What an eye-opener.
@ Calgacus: enjoyed your comments on Beryl Platts. Of course, neither the history nor heraldry worlds liked her work: too many apple carts upset. Beryl is “contentious”.
Flemish heraldry was, as you say, a big influence on ours.
The wings link on that Bateman article from May 2014 is an eye opener and the BBC bias DID get worse from that date up to the present. Sickening.
lol
i asked eric joyce in his last piece if corbyn were elected, would the blairites bring him down
he replied that it would be for corbyn to keep the party together
1. it never occurred to me that the actual process could be this damaging alone
2. if corbyn loses, labours support in scotland will drop and i would expect supporters and some members to cross the floor, not just joining the snp but supporting indy. indeed, in light of the purge happening today, this may have already started.
3. if corbyn wins….i cannot see him holding the party together, there have been too many negative comments, some extremely hostile, and even oor own keza would find herself on the wrong side of this struggle. murray and keza are the voice of slab, they are all that is left.
I dont think Corbyn can hold labour together, the blairites will bring him down if he wins. This conflict is entirely of labours own creation and a real pigs ear they are making of it. this is now a battle for the soul of the labour party (it didnt have to be) but more importantly. we could be witnessing labours last stand in Scotland
i would urge snp members not to push for a resolution on an indy ref in next years manifesto at this sept party conference. delay such a move until the spring, there is no hurry. labour are presently doing our job for us…dont interupt your enemies when they are making a mistake. 🙂
Regards Mr Robinson, has he not just put out some sort of book? He might just need to have his name imprinted onto folks minds, so like robots they go to the shelf in a popular bookshop and only buy said book. I mean otherwise why is he wanting so much media attention.
Looking forward to seeing it for three quid in a bargain bookshop very soon, and that would be a waste unless you need to burn somethjng to keep warm this winter, and we might need that now:(
Hard core Tory boy Press and journal’s on going vote SLab we beg you today and Keiza, sorry lovely KeZia, full page again with lovely Kezia stuff like,
“I’m part of new generation, someone without baggage of the past” interesting coming from creepy Tory boy Jim Murpy’s no. 2.
“Smashing glass ceiling of politics” iinteresting considering Sturgeon and Davidson are women.
“I hit the ground running on my first day in the job” interesting as where was lovely Kezia running to when she was in her last red Tory job and so on.
“Public confidence in police Scotland drain away” but without lovely Kezia saying “if we can just get everyone at Pacific quay to keep terrifying everyone that Scottish cops are dangerous” and the rest is endless dross, dodging completely Lab head office in London collapsed into unelectable jaw dropping freak show.
Ah know Jack, I remember it well as it was happening. Nick Robinson was ‘at it then’ and he’s ‘at it now’. Think he’s ‘protesting’ just a tad too much…
Re Corbynphobia, further up someone said
“Whatever happens though, it’s all incredibly funny to watch.”
And, you know what? It is, because it makes absolutely no difference to Scotland which colour of Tory is in power.
The establishment using the same ‘Project Fear’ tactics they used during Indy might even open up a few NO voters eyes to the con perpetrated on them.
Heedtracker, Kezia thinks principles is an outlet at Braehead.
Where would she be without BBC Scotlandshire?
Robinson flogging his book on how to lie in public at public expense too,
“Alex Salmond was using me to change the subject. Alex Salmond was using me as a symbol. A symbol of the wicked, metropolitan, Westminster classes sent from England, sent from London, in order to tell the Scots what they ought to do.”
You have to admire that from BBC lie machine, ask Scotland’s First Minister tough question at press conference with world press watching, get really detailed answer from Scotland’s FM, something bugs you about the answers, start shouting at and heckling Scotland’s FM, lie blatantly and historically about Scotland’s FM on national BBC TV news that evening.
And now same UKOK propaganda boss says he was being used!
And then they wonder why they’re a laughing stock at best although they prob all don’t.
“Robinson SACKED by BBC for lying” would make a good headline. would it not?
@Petra says: 21 August, 2015 at 4:08 am:
” … We could have become an Independent country last year if we had excluded all but Scottish born resident Scots. We didn’t and paid the ultimate price.”
I first became a supporter of Scottish independence while still a schoolboy in the very late 1940s/very early 1950s. I began this interest in Scottish politics in the school’s debating society and followed this by spending Sundays listening to speakers at, “Speaker’s Corner”, at the foot of, “The Mound”, in Edinburgh.
I have met some very inspiring independence supporters in that time and not a few of these were born outwith Scotland. My support has never wavered, even in the lean years when people looked at you as if you had two heads when they found you were for Scottish independence.
Yet I swear, by all I hold dear, that if the matter ever becomes one of restricting the vote to only those who claim to be Scottish born I will start to campaign against Scottish Independence.
In all those years the most bitterly opposed to independence people I have encountered have invariably been Scottish born Unionists. I have also always been a student of real, (as opposed to taught), history.
That real history bears out my conviction that the real enemies of Scotland have indeed always been what our national bard succinctly describes as, “Siccna paircel o rogues in ae Nation”..
Let me point out the case of the Loyal Orange Order that disgraces Scotland by its very existence. We have members of that vile organisation who are Scottish born and have never set foot outside Scotland, (unless that is to support a certain football team). These people are Scottish born Ultra-Unionists who owe their main allegiance to Irish Politics and the union Establishment.
Their counterparts, who march under the banner of the Irish Tricolour, also are Scottish born, and descended from a long line of Scottish born parentage. These also owe their allegiance to Irish politics and history.
Then we have the Scottish born members of the main Westminster Unionist Establishment who bitterly, and blindly, oppose the freedom of their own country in favour of the Union.
Yet you would have us allow these people a vote in a independence referendum yet deny the Polish born person who tirelessly delivers SNP & YES leaflets through the letterboxes in this area a vote. You would deny the French born SNP MSP or the several English born MSPs and MPs fighting hard for Scotland.
I will have no truck with any party who would place any restrictions upon those who comprise, “The sovereign People of Scotland”, other than that they are mainly resident in Scotland and are registered to vote in Scottish Elections.
Robert Peffers says:
21 August, 2015 at 1:15 pm
What he said!
(equivalent of a like) 🙂
heedtracker said at 12:40 pm:-
“Hard core Tory boy Press and journal’s on going vote SLab we beg you today …………………………”
Just a wee reminder that the Press and Journal is owned by the DC Thomson Family/Company who own and publish ‘The Courier’.
‘Nuff said.
Robert P. I take on board all of your points and they are good ones but is it morally right for a different nationality to vote on such an emotive matter as a question of nationhood? For example as a Scot I would definitely NOT vote on any future Catalonian vote if I lived there. I have asked that question before on this site and no one answered.
Joe, huv we no been through this…over and over and over agin!
The sooner the Rev chucks up another thread…the better 🙂
No doubt others have commented earlier on today but can I just add my congratulations to you Stu, for an excellent piece in the National today. 😀
The National may not have been the first, nor will they be the last in my view, but their piece today is probably the best I have read so far about the *ahem* wee ongoing fundraiser. 😛
Yet again those people in the nasty Cybernat Army have managed to do what no one from the Union supporters club has done … made GREAT headlines and shown the Tory party up for they they really are … a bunch of heartless killers!
Joemcg 1.27,
If you see your future as being in that country then yes,morally you can vote.If you mean to be moving on before too long then no.Thats my personal opinion and its up to each individual to make their own judgement.
“We can only think of one way the farce could become even worse.”
if colbym is elected then deposed shortly after by the blairites….wouldnt this be an even worse senario for labour?
and better for us?
@ Schrodingers cat
“if corbyn loses, labours support in scotland will drop and i would expect supporters and some members to cross the floor, not just joining the snp but supporting indy. indeed, in light of the purge happening today, this may have already started.
That is making the very large assumption that some of these London Labour creatures have principles, SC.
I think I can safely say, with 100% certainty that not one of London Labour’s Scottish branch MSPs will have the backbone to do it, that I will eat my semmit if one of them does. 😀
Remember folks. Like Labour the BBC fell out with the SNP and by default the electorate a long time ago. The referendum brought it to a head.
The BBC in Scotland are now only representing those who favour their postion and cronies. They are effectively the oppositon to the Scottish government. Why do you think they cry foul when it is suggested that broadcasting be devolved. They know that the SG would go through them with a fine toothcombe and weed out the cronyism.
A cronysism festered by years of Labour control of the BBC in Scotland.
If you think of the BBC in Scotland like a media outlet for the Scottish Laour party, then their behaviour all makes sense.
The problem is the SNP supporters are now the majority of their audience. So they hate 51% of their audience. That’s some way to run a state broadcaster.
@Joemcg
“For example as a Scot I would definitely NOT vote on any future Catalonian vote if I lived there.”
That’s the thing, that would be your decision, not someone else’s. I’m pretty sure more than a few English people who were living here last year didn’t vote because they might return south in a few years.
I know of at least 2 servicemen at RAF Lossiemouth who didn’t vote because they knew they would be moving back down to England when their tour is up.
Nick Robinson is utterly irrelevant to Scottish politics. His contribution was about as informed as that of any foreign journalist (and less than some).
Bullied? He was nothing more than a momentary sideshow. He does have a book to sell though so I guess his publisher wanted a “story”.
The Corbyn saga is incredible. It really does look like Labour will attempt some sort of Stalinist purge to ensure he doesn’t win. Notable media and arts left wingers like Mark Steel and Jeremy Harding have been told they can’t vote.
A Gerrymandered vote to shoe in Burnham or Cooper will kill the brief flowering of hope that Corbyn has brought into being. From a purely selfish perspective that would a gift to Scottish independence and a tragedy for any resistance to the Tories in Westminster.
Robert Peffers. I agree entirely with what you posted @1.15 pm. No Scottish citizen should be excluded from the next Scottish referendum vote in order to silence their voice in the way that the Labour Party is trying to do in their leadership election, and the way David Cameron is trying to do in his EU referendum.
We are better than this sad manipulation of the popular franchise which disenfranchises people who don’t agree with us.
Joe if there were 11% of Catalonians originally from the rest of Spain. That would be similar to the scottish situation. I am not sure how the Catalonians would feel about the large minority of Spanish with an agenda and baggage. Voting in a Catalan referendum nd potentially preventing independence.
Those from the rest of Europe would be smaller in numbers, have no baggage in terms of Catalan or Spanish identity. Their numbers could not sway the vote on a nationality by nationality basis.
The problem is not people being from other countries. It’s the volume of people from one country effectively vetoing the 90% due to their large volume and establishment or historical baggage.
We know that the majority of people born in Scotland voted yes. So where does that leave democracy for people born in Scotland. Knowing this does not make things any easier for us to be even handed. We also know 80% of English born people voted no while other nationals were evvenly split on the subject with some as high as 60% yes!
Much mirth, I am sure, among the no labour contingent daun Sarf!
While genuine labour supporters are rightly angry that their (once upon a time) socialist party being hijacked and run into the ground by red tories.
Labour supporters in Scotland looking South must feel abandoned by metropolitan head office and must further wince at the branch office third raters now touting for their vote here in North Britain.
Will they give labour one more try, or break for a better Scotland while England and Wales all move further to the right?
https://archive.is/QcIL4
HandandShrimp says:
Nick Robinson is utterly irrelevant to Scottish politics. His contribution was about as informed as that of any foreign journalist (and less than some).
I’m sorry HaS but I have no idea who you are talking about here, who the heck is this Nick fella? 😀 😀 😀
Just a wee reminder that the Press and Journal is owned by the DC Thomson Family/Company who own and publish ‘The Courier’.
‘Nuff said.
They’re just as sneaky and creepy blue Tory Nick Robinsonesque,as all the rest, like today’s P&J gives over a full page to lovely Kezia and do the same again for Alex Salmond next Monday
Yesterday’s P&J had full page vote Slab we beg you blast for lovely Kezia, who’s very very new and lovely but that was noble and honest P&J reportage, not Politics give page today and on it goes in the land of hard core red and blue Tory propaganda.
On balance though, press and journal creep show is absolutely hopeless at the old localised vote anyone but SNP propaganda. The whole shebang piled into that vote LibDem or vote tactical to keep out evil and cruel Salmond for the GE and look at how hard that went wrong for them.
They are more than capable of far worse though, so cudos to Salmond for being that committed a democrat and not hanging up on their far right crew of royals grovellers and endless anti wind energy fetishising
Dont flatter yourself there Robinson, Yes indeed there were 4000 people protesting in front of Pacific Quay but apart from ONE banner calling for you to resign or be sacked (quire reasonably I thought) the crowd weren’t there because of you my friend they were there because of everything you and you ilk are attempting to defend,
“I didn’t think my offence was sufficient to justify 4,000 people marching on the BBC’s headquarters. Young men and women who are new to journalism had – like they do in Putin’s Russia – to fight their way through crowds of protesters, frightened as to how they do their jobs.”
I was there and I could show you video of kids dancing to a drum band and people singing, and I am not aware of a single person who had to “fight their way through an angry crowd”, it was a Sunday and the BBC car park was nearly empty.
Hahahaha what an arrogant man,
your offence was to believe the people who were there gave a single flying f**K about you,
You Mr Robinson are a pathetic no mark and have absolutely no relevance to why we were there that day other than be just one more pro unionist troll paid for by public money (to lie about innocent people going about their lawful right of protest) that means OUR money ,and dont you forget it!
Oh before I forget, there were (to my knowledge) about 6 policemen at that protest to control and angry mob of 4000, all of whom spent the afternoon having a laugh and a joke with the people who were at the protest, I have video to prove it!
A fact Ronnie Anderson can bear witness to.
K1-Robert started it! He made the snowballs! Lol! I’m just curious as to the mentality of someone not of that country voting on another’s nationhood and right to be independent. Morally I think it’s wrong.Just my opinion!
heed
It really does look like Labour will attempt some sort of Stalinist purge to ensure he doesn’t win.
the labour party is and always ruthless when purging its ranks of dissenters. the council elections in 2013 were the most recent example.
i dont know how corbyn slipped through the net, probably by keeping his head down. a search on the internet shows very little in the way of public announcements before this leaders election. thing is, the previous purges in the labour party have left very few dissenters at all. that is why im certain that if corbyn is elected, an ice pick which will make his ears burn, is a foregone conclusion. they may loose(purge) a large % of their members and activists in scotland but 50% of bugger all is still bugger all.
what is happening here is a grass roots movement which has arisen from the voters, to the horror of the those in charge of the labour party, but they cannot purge the voters who support the labour party. what we are hearing is their squeals of impotence in the face of those who really hold the power. the voters. it was labour voters in scotland who woke up and crossed the floor to join us during the referendum. indeed, they tend to be the biggest critics of the labour party now. but there were still 25% of the population of scotland who voted labour in May Heed, if they wake up now, we could be looking at indyref2 in september next year. keep a close eye on the polls
@ Robert Peffer. amen to all of that
@John King. Well said, and very true in toto
RE Lab purge
It is more McCarthy that Stalin, methinks
John King
I am sure that the celebratory good nature of the protests was particularly galling for the BBC 🙂
Re the Nick Robinson huha. His ludicrous claims that the SNP government were behind the anti-BBC demos during the referendum can be easily disproved by looking the archives of Independence Live. They filmed the demos. I always remember the energetic drummers who were great.
Fiona
Fair point re McCarthy vs Stalin
Are you, or have you at any point been, a socialist?
My posts have gone into the ether! The anti-BBC bias demos were filmed by Independence Live and a check of their arcives will show that Nick Robinson’s claims are ludicrous.
@Jimbo
i couldnt agree more. any dissenters in the top level of the labour party were long ago removed, eg dennis canavan,
but im not talking about mps or msps or councillors or activists or even the lay members. they are now too few to really make a difference (7-12000, wont make an electoral impact) im talking about the voters
even the labour party in scotland cant purge them
Will Labour’s purge now go after the members of their own party who nominated Jeremy Corbyn in the first place? After all, they thought he was a no mark, there to make the numbers up. That worked well then eh! So it’s all their fault intit.
Robert Peffers @ 1.15, well said once again sir. I agree with you 100%. Oh and guys, we have been through this time and time again.Could we please let it go for now.
John King @ 2.00, hells bells John are you a wee bit annoyed there.Dinnae haud back. Ha ha.
Guid man, goan yersel son.
John King , I can attest that bbc demo that Robinson alludes too was more like a carnival, than a protest.
The likes of Robinson are just serial liers and slowly but surely the people of Scotland are
Starting to realise.
How’s it going anyway John? Ain’t made any Wos gatherings recently due to health but on road to recovery so hopefully see y’all at next Glasgow gig.
Joe – I think given what we know from the voting patterns after indi 1. It would be foolish to think the large volume of English no votes were not a problem for us.
Personally I don’t think we will ever change that to more than 75% no. Given that emmigration is a fluid situation. We are dealing with fresh emmigrants every year. It takes a long time to form a bond with a nation. Especialy when they see Scottish independence as a threat to their Britishness in a British Scotland.
The English that voted yes maybe have taken a long time to realise that Scotland and independence isn’t a threat to them.
Look at Edinburgh which was 40% no with a 12% English born population. How can we win the referendum? Well we need to get the other 10% to counter the large English no vote. That’s the democratic way to do it.
Is it achievable as we are effictively looking for a 60% yes vote. It will be tough and tight.
But it might not come to that. We might not need another referendum. Scotland might just walk away.
Robert @11.16
The Wallace would the birling in his grave, if he had one. A Norman knight? Whit?
Although his paternity is disputed, either Malcolm or Alan, and his birthplace either Ayrshire or Renfrewshire, his ancestry is not. He was a Brythonic Celt from the Welsh kingdom of Strathclyde, which was not Gaelic but British.
His name is a dead giveaway. Wallace is a corruption of Old English and means Welshman, or sometimes “foreigner”, i.e. neither Scot nor Pict, but certainly never Norman.
I guess that’s official then. There were 4 thousand at the protest and not 400 which I think was the figure reported by the BBslabC.
Thanks Nick.
I agree with Roberts post earlier that our biggest hurdle to independence lies with our own Scottish born and bred Britnats ie Orange Order and the I’m alright jack Scots etc but there’s nothing we can do about them other than try to convince them, and I don’t have a problem with Poles or Asians or any other nationality who intends to make their home here in Scotland but I do have a problem with English voters because for many (not all) their vote is compromised by an allegiance to their own native country the same country we’re trying to break away from.
I reiterate I have absolutely nothing against English people I just don’t think they should be allowed to vote on our sovereignty and the fact 75% voted against independence proves my point
it was labour voters in scotland who woke up and crossed the floor to join us during the referendum.
And even more May 7!
Also-
“Burnham campaign hints at challenge if it loses Labour leadership vote”
and
“His campaign director, Michael Dugher, said in a letter to the party’s general secretary, Iain McNicol, that there were still concerns about “entryists” despite the party’s attempts to weed out supporters of other parties.”
That’s latest Graun creep out. I used to buy rancid olde Graun as I thought it was a leftie outfit. First vile Scots separatistas pulled their union jack tory pants down in public and now JC is pointing at our imperial masters and saying look everyone, UKOK establishment’s merely privately educated, Oxbridge con artists.
I believe in JC.
25% of the Scottish electorate voted Labour in GE15 and almost certainly voted No in IndyRef1. I have puzzled long and hard as to who these 25% are; which demographic groups do they belong to. It is certainly the case that over 50% of Catholic voters voted No, but were they all Labour supporters. This would appear a hard nut to crack, but persuasive perseverance in this sector may well yield a rich reward from a community which is neither Unionist nor neo-Liberal by nature.
Then again, with so many Catholics now comfortably middle class, perhaps neo-Liberalism’s doctrine of austerity has more followers than was first thought. Maybe ‘I’m alright,Jack’ has greater allegiance than the Union Jack.
Hiya Lenny, sorry to hear youve not been well,
I wasnt at the last one either,
paying for holidays and such put paid to that.
i read somewhere that wallaces family hailed from brittany, i suppose the kingdom of strathclyde would have been a very similar place to brittany, eg, very similar language and cultural ties etc,
marion braidfute, his wife came from lamington and he was very active in lanarkshire, indeed, see his adventures in lanark itself. the name wallace is indeed a form of the term welsh, and does mean foriegner or “welsh” speaking. indeed, some of the sheep farmers in the north of england still count in an ancient form of welsh.
historians past and present tend to lump everyone as normans in the same way as the arabs refered to all of the crusaders as “frankish”
while scotland didnt have a 1066 moment, many of the ancient families are decendant from the incomers of that time and while they may well have been breton, flemish ( eg the bruce) etc, the language they spoke was francienne, and the culture of building motte and baileys, cathederals and abbeys, the replacement of indigenous saints and of existing religious settlements and the imposition of a parish structure, heraldry, feudalism, social structure are all part of a culture and ideology which is identified as being norman.
it was the winning forumla for everyone back then, regardless of where you came from. the highlands and islands did seem less receptive to these ideas though.
Golfnut says:
I guess that’s official then. There were 4 thousand at the protest and not 400 which I think was the figure reported by the BBslabC.
Thanks Nick.
Good old Nick, gaun yersel son! 😉
He shoots the good old Stasi HQ in Glasgow in the foot … AGAIN by confirming what WE already knew … the BBC calculator is well and truly BROKEN! 😀
@John King
I was there and I could show you video of kids dancing to a drum band and people singing, and I am not aware of a single person who had to “fight their way through an angry crowd”, it was a Sunday and the BBC car park was nearly empty.
Yep, I was there too and if anyone believes Robinson’s claim of an angry crowd I’ve got dozens of photographs that prove otherwise. It was more of a party atmosphere. I’ve got loads of the crowd from different angles, some of the banner saying ‘Sack Nick “The Liar” Robinson’ and a few of the Wings Over Scotland banner. No doubt a lot of Wingers would be able to identify themselves in the pics.
Just read that 120 THOUSAND labour members have been denied a vote in the leader campaign…. http://www.itv.com/news/2015-08-21/who-is-infiltrating-labour/
Now that’s a lot of peed off people…..
Kevie. It might be controversial but you are ccorrect. A large ethnic minority the English, have within their power. The ability to marginally prevent independence.
Even if 60% of the rest of Scotland voted yes they could still swing it back.
The fact that they are so heavily no unlike other ethnic groups. Tells us there is an agenda against independence. The other problem is they seem intransigent.
If indi ref 2 happens and 58 % of the rest of Scotland vote yes. But we lose due to their minority no vote. How is that democracy for the majority of Scotland?
@Joemcg says: 21 August, 2015 at 1:27 pm:
” … is it morally right for a different nationality to vote on such an emotive matter as a question of nationhood?”
Second attempt at answer – the first one just vanished.
Yes, Joemcg, it is indeed right for the reason that in Britain it is hard to define a, “Nation”. We all have different views on what is, “Our”, Nation. To understand this we have to forget all of what was/is taught as history I our schools for real science has proven it to be sheer balderdash and mainly Establishment propaganda. The truth is far more simple and, quite obviously, far more plausible.
First of all most Britons are exactly genetically the same. We are mainly all descended from the original Stone Age Hunter-Gatherers, (excepting that recent science proves that Stone-Age farmers lived alongside those Hunter-Gatherers).
Truth is that the so-called Celts are not actually genetically Celts nor are the so called Anglo Saxons actually Anglo-Saxon. Thus any perceived differences are cultural and not genetic.
We really are genetically, “Aa Jock Tamson’s Bairns. The original Celts were celibate holy men and the Britons we call Celts just adopted their cultures and language.
Likewise the Anglo-Saxons were invited to south Britain after the Romans left. This by the South Britons who had been under Roman Rule for several centuries and had no experience of either running their country nor of defending themselves.
So the historic divisions began before the Birth of Christ. In short, while the South was constantly enslaved by invaders the north and west were not. That is until after the Kingdom of England annexed Wales and Ireland but Scotland has never been concurred by force.
Yet Scotland did indeed change in a different way. We have always absorbed any immigrants, or would be invaders, (and that includes the Scots and the Romans). We got Vikings but they never ruled Scotland. Yet the Northern Isles have a Viking heritage.
Then while England was being ruled by the Normans we Scots were absorbing them. Both Bruce & Wallace were Norman Knights but made their way into Scottish nobility by absorption not conquest. Bruce was the product of a Gaelic speaking mother who held the Norman father prisoner until he promised to marry her.
The whole history of what became the two original signatories of the Treaty of Union was culturally different. So, much of those who now claim to be Scots, came to be Scots by absorption and not by either being conquered or by conquering Scots. We cannot thus claim to be pure Scottish for there is no such thing.
What we can do, though, is claim that we are, “One of the People of Scotland”, and that is defined as, “Anyone, of any colour, creed or country of origin who is mainly resident in Scotland and who has registered to vote in Scottish Elections”.
In short a Scot is anyone who lives in Scotland, (or anywhere else for that matter), who declares themselves Scottish. However, as there are declared Scots in every last corner of this old World, we have to draw the line of voter eligibility somewhere. What better place to do so than the borders of Scotland?
That’s the abridged version. The actual history covers a very long period of time. Scotland is one of Europe’s oldest established, and recognised as such, countries. It is mentioned in the old Roman and Greek records long before there was an England. Mind you the southern borders have sometimes stretched as far south as Tee-side
I have puzzled long and hard as to who these 25% are; which demographic groups do they belong to
me too, some of them will be dyed in the wool britnats but not all. i beleive they are the demographic we need to focus on, it is where the remaining 10% we need to get support for indy to 60%.
as i said, it is the labour party which will do this for us
heres hoping the corbyn fiasco plays out in the way i hope.
keep the faith and keep the heid, we are walking a very fine line at the moment, indyref2 maybe closer than we think
If indi ref 2 happens and 58 % of the rest of Scotland vote yes. But we lose due to their minority no vote. How is that democracy for the majority of Scotland?
A huge number of English voters in Scotland were born in Scotland after their parents moved to Scotland. Anecdotally of course, but all of the English children born in Scotland consider themselves English. I don’t know how they vote but again, anecdotally, they vote NO.
This is the real world.
Krackerman says:
Just read that 120 THOUSAND labour members have been denied a vote in the leader campaign…. http://www.itv.com/news/2015-08-21/who-is-infiltrating-labour/
Now that’s a lot of peed off people…..
I think you are wrong there Krackerman. This is not a load of peed off folks at all … THIS is what passes for DEMOCRACY in the Labour party these days! 😀
Indy ref2 will not happen until AFTER the Euro referendum voter requirements are cast in stone.
The minute that Cameron et al announce that non UK nationals will be excluded from voting gives the SNP carte blanche to apply the same rules to any future Indy vote.
@ Robert Peffers says at 1:15 pm ”I have met some very inspiring independence supporters in that time and not a few of these were born outwith Scotland …..”
Yeah I appreciate what you’re saying Robert and I totally agree with you, as I’m one of them, but the times they are a’changing …… dramatically.
Data highlights that migration to Scotland from rUK has reached an all time high and that within a few years over 60% of the population in Scotland will be aged over 60 (a massive problem facing us). With around 17% of the population being aged 17 and under that will leave around 23% of the Scottish population aged between 17 and 60.
In-migration is now exceeding out-migration. We have around 60 / 70,000 individuals leaving Scotland every year now. That figure has risen dramatically too and includes many youngsters aged between 23 / 24 years of age: many of whom are educated to a high educational level. We have a slightly higher number of individuals (plus 17,000) coming from rUK and abroad. Many of them are elderly of course, students and youngsters who are working in low paid jobs such as in the service industry. It doesn’t take much to work out that levels of tax-raising will drop over time and that our NHS and so on is going to be well and truly compromised.
I totally agree with Colin Church (9:42am) when he says that ”It is an insidious modern day Plantation of Scotland against a background of youth depopulation.”
The Registrar General of Scotland recently pointed out that ”the estimated population of Scotland reached 5,347,600 on June 30 last year (2014), the highest level ever recorded and will continue to rise … we are now experiencing a time of substantial demographic change due to the population increasing and ageing … the most distinctive current demographic development.”
Many people are heading to Scotland from rUK due to a number of reasons which you yourself clearly outlined previously in one of your posts. I copied your post because it was totally in line with my way of thinking and additionally I was aware that 74% of rUK relocators had voted no.
‘’Robert Peffers: There are several factors that make up the full demographics of voter patterns. Those well known areas that voted NO are also those where English pensioners have flocked into after selling off expensive English town / city properties and bought bigger and better Scottish rural properties to retire to. There are also those from England who had existing holiday homes in Scotland and who made a killing selling off their English homes and moved to Scotland to their holiday home upon retirement. Not only for the cheaper properties but the free prescriptions, free home care for the elderly and other Scottish Government provided benefits. Factor into those demographic the well known fact that for many centuries younger Scots have emigrated all over the World to get work. Remember too the big problem in most rural areas where many Englanders have retired to where younger Scots have been priced out of houses to either rent or buy where they were born and brought up and you just may realise those areas that voted NO are subject to much more than just Scottish OAPs voting NO in abject fear but from the complementary factor of younger displaced Scots due to the English immigrants.’’
Individuals such as Gordon McIntyre-Kemp, Founder and Chief Executive of Business for Scotland, has stated that ”had non-Scottish born residents been excluded (from voting in the Referendum) Yes would have won. Taking into account that the in-migration figures are expected to rise and that around 60% of the Scottish population will be aged over 60 will we see last Septembers result being repeated?
You say ”Yet I swear, by all I hold dear, that if the matter ever becomes one of restricting the vote to only those who claim to be Scottish born I will start to campaign against Scottish Independence.”
So are you trying to tell me Robert that if this situation continues with many MORE people from rUK relocating here and the polls suggesting that we will have NO chance of EVER achieving our Independence, due to this situation, you would still campaign against voting restrictions?
”In all those years the most bitterly opposed to independence people I have encountered have invariably been Scottish born Unionists … Loyal Orange Order … These people are Scottish born Ultra-Unionists who owe their main allegiance to Irish Politics and the union Establishment.”
Yes I agree with you Robert. They’ll never change their allegiance either, like the hardened rUK Unionists, and there’s not a lot we can do about the former at all, unfortunately.
”Yet you would have us allow these people a vote in a independence referendum yet deny the Polish born person who tirelessly delivers SNP & YES leaflets through the letterboxes in this area a vote. You would deny the French born SNP MSP or the several English born MSPs and MPs fighting hard for Scotland.”
Robert I’ve got Polish relatives and friends (English and of other nationalities) living here too who worked their butts off alongside me (still do) and of course voted yes for Independence. Through discussion, we are all in agreement that we would have no qualms whatsoever in forfeiting our votes (for that one and only time) if it meant freeing ourselves, and more so the hundreds of thousands of Scottish children living in abject poverty, from the shackles of Westminster.
You say ‘’I will have no truck with any party who would place any restrictions upon those who comprise, “The sovereign People of Scotland”, other than that they are mainly resident in Scotland and are registered to vote in Scottish Elections.’’
And yet 74% of people who have relocated to Scotland from rUK did exactly that last September.
120,000 people being excluded from the vote so far.
damage limitation, they must now think it better to gerrymander the vote than wait to bring down corbyn once he is elected
that is a lot and they will have calculated how many to get rid of to ensure corbyn loses, so i guess stu’s senario is now more likely
Tam Jardine, Robert Peffers ,
My point regarding the dictatorial Normans, was that the “genetical hard core” still survives in the corridors of power, in and out with goverments.
Yes there are/were Normans in Scotland, but they did not have to fight thier way in, but instead were, shall we say ” absorbed ” into Scottish society.
No doomsday book here, a name given to the Normans “stock taking” of England’s land, farms, animals, people, in fact everything, by the Saxons, because they knew it was nothing short of what we now call ethnic cleansing.
Robert, Wee Wullie, and Alex Rowley, that wee village of Kelty has a lot to answer for!! (Poor joke)
Nick Robinsons talking rubbish,no young Bbc training journalist were subject to any abuse , they were encouraged to tell the truth as Journalists (Light handed banter) & that was only on the second demo. I spoke to several at the launch of Scotlands Future,as did others,& were thanked for spending our time informing them of the case for Independence & giving the information ( links) to Indy sites.
Robinson didnt see the line of Police on the steps of Bbc , unless he was watching Beep cctv, & its illegal for those cameras to have microphones on them.
BBC radio Scotland reporting leadership contest has 3000 voters rejected and as we know that must be correct! I think it is actually.
I think the link is suggesting that 121,000 registered to vote may contain a few thousand infiltrators.
Nevertheless this is a very public disaster for labour in the way the vote was organised.
But they are disenfranchising genuine eligible voters ‘before your very eyes’ as Askey used to say or ‘just like that’ as Cooper would have it.
You don’t need a big pair of specs or a fez to see it’s a joke, and they weren’t funny then either!
For the older viewer 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1nGSYBpkoE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw7OFxHDBX8
The sad truth is that Labour have been like this since the 1970s. Corrupt, nepotism, cronyism and anti-socialism. They all fit as descriptions for this shower.
“Hypothetically that sounds like a rerun of the referendum in that “we have democracy as long as you vote for who we want.””
Do you have evidence of thousands of people being excluded from voting in the referendum because they might vote the wrong way? If not, I’m not sure I understand the point of the analogy.
This whole mess over vote exclusion is nothing more than a neo-con type strategy employed in order to leave all options open to the establishment arm of the labour party following the ballot. I wonder just how many people are now changing their thoughts as to the veracity of the referendum vote last year as a result of these shenanigans.
These tactics along with the very real prospect of a conservative government being in power for the foreseeable future are not clearly a material change in circumstances in UK politics but rather the illumination of circumstances that have existed all along. Anybody who cannot see this reality now either doesn’t want to see it or just isn’t paying attention. It is the latter of these two groups that could provide many of the converts that would be enough to see us safely over the line in indyref2.
The fact that the question of currency has not yet been definitively answered remains the biggest impediment to conversion as far as independence is concerned, and this is the only card that the establishment really have left to play. We need to counter that. Things are heating up and UK politics is in a state of flux.
A couple of weeks ago I was feeling cautious about the prospect of a 2020 indyref2. With labour plummeting toward ground at freefall acceleration it now makes sense to get the option of indy2 on the SNP manifesto. IMO it would be silly not to have it there. We know the game now and we know the playing field.
It is difficult to imagine a more favourable set of circumstances than those which are now unfolding, in which to go for it.
Austerity is a powerful word if you haven’t much.
There are some like the Economist who say that Corbyn will inflict grave damage on Britain if he becomes leader, but why?
For people go on about the far left, but just look at what the far right has done for a minute and the capitalist system that it worships. These are things that the capitalist politicians and masters of the universe keep secret to great extent and away from the voting people. In this respect the greatest capitalist nation ever the USA, has according to leading economists a fiscal ‘gap’ of US$222 trillion and where the Pentagon in a system weighed down by unpayable sheer debt, cannot account for US$8.5 trillion from 1996>2013 according to Reuters.
http://www.realclearpolicy.com/blog/2012/12/01/economist_laurence_kotlikoff_us_222_trillion_in_debt_363.html
http://www.opednews.com/articles/When-8-5-Trillion-is-Chum-by-David-Swanson-Pentagon_Pentagon-150820-622.html
Indeed if the capitalist system is so good, why does the USA have so much calculated debt? can anyone answer that one?
Added to this, why also has the capitalist system created over US$ 16 trillion in debt for the UK according to the figures of PwC’s chief economist – some 7-times our GDP and where we can never pay off all this debt, with an economy not even turning over US$2.4 trillion (not profit, but economic turnover and where as we know, it is the profit bit that allows us to pay down debt, a mere fraction of the revenues).
http://worldinnovationfoundation.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/uks-debt-id-far-more-than-what-people.html
Therefore Corbyn in my estimation cannot do any worse than what the capitalist system has done in weighing down in debt the people of the USA and the UK and made them the most indebted bankrupt people in the world, or can he?
VOTE for JEREMY CORBYN – People Politics are NO More & Wealth and Power Politics of the Few Control the People, Their Families and Their Futures , ‘NOT’ who you Vote For – For a New and Positive ‘CHANGE’, I would Vote for Jeremy Corbyn as the New Labour Leader – http://worldinnovationfoundation.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/vote-for-jeremy-corbyn-people-politics.html
O/T Thank you Ben Madigan for the link to Yew Choob’s video Long Live UK. I have watched it five times already!
Compulsory viewing and I am doing my best to share.
Petra says:
21 August, 2015 at 4:05 pm
@ Robert Peffers says at 1:15 pm ”I have met some very inspiring independence supporters in that time and not a few of these were born outwith Scotland …..”
Mr Peffers, you succinctly exposed the divide and rule issue. Normally something that has to be spewed out.
How about… following impending tax raising powers which will align national insurance numbers and tax codes and postcodes etc..
.. there is a chance to draw new lines in the sand..
To re-imagine the nation..as is.
(not as an economic entity, falling into the corporate trap)
.. but as politically aware adults, who input to or depend on, the Scottish Government.
Holyrood can then also extend eligibility to all those born in Scotland.
Mostly those who have used OUR education and health systems..and who would have previously qualified to be a “Scottish taxpayer”…
.. who, since being failed by generations of (government appointed) economists, and forced to leave family and their country to find work..
..should be given rights to the future of their nation.
These “abroad” Scots, many in England, have not actually emigrated, and should not be treated so..
O/T darlings but in anticipation of this – https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/iscot-phase-2-be-the-change#/story I have already done the photo shoot and have received the proofs – you will be entranced, donate now!
@Ben Madigan
Ben, thanks for your kind comments and sharing the video. We appreciate the support we get from Wings folk and I’m sure Ninja Penguin, Janet and Jock will be aware of this. The ideas/concepts have always incorporated what the grassroots are expressing and hopefully we can continue to represent this and help to ‘entertain’ as much as Wingers ‘educate’.
@Barbara McKenzie
So kind of you,,thanks 🙂
The fix is in, even if Corbyn wins they will declare the result null and void due to the vote being infiltrated.
England needs a party like The SNP and when Corbyn is done out of the leadership the split will begin.
Hold on just a minute, we’ve been here before….is that not pretty much exactly how Ed Miliband got the job? Or am I once again failing to spot Stu’s mastery of irony?
Hahahahahahaha……hahahahahahaha…….
Will the new labour members who have been told to vote off get a refund of their £3-, The promise was pay £3- join labour party and get a vote on the leader, wasn’t that the deal. Demand your refund.