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Trampling on graves

Posted on April 17, 2018 by

Last night – at the insistence of the SNP – the House Of Commons held a six-hour emergency debate in the wake of the UK’s unquestionably illegal bombing of Syria at the weekend, under the supposed justification of a chemical attack that may well not have happened at all, far less have been the responsibility of the unfortunate country’s murderous dictator Bashar al-Assad.

(Loony left-wing conspiracy theorists casting doubt on Assad’s responsibility for what happened – or didn’t happen – in Douma include, er, Major General Jonathan Shaw, the former head of the UK’s special forces, and Admiral Lord West, the former First Sea Lord under Tony Blair and Minister For Security And Counter-Terrorism in Gordon Brown’s government.)

The debate concluded with a token vote, not on whether the bombing was right or wrong but which merely asserted whether Parliament had “considered” the subject. (ie voting that it had NOT done so would have made a statement that the Prime Minister acted improperly by committing UK forces to a conflict without obtaining MPs’ assent.)

Faced with the opportunity to issue a symbolic public rebuke to the government for bypassing Parliament on a matter of war and breaking international law, the radical socialist opposition Labour Party of Jeremy Corbyn… abstained.

In doing so Corbyn’s party stomped all over the memory of its own former Foreign Secretary Robin Cook, who resigned in 2003 over the principle of the Iraq War being undertaken without a proper legal basis and who felt so strongly that Parliament, not the whim of the Prime Minister, should determine the UK involving itself in war that he had the words below carved on his headstone:

But few were surprised when that right was tossed aside without a word of protest from Labour (indeed, with some vocal support from the Labour benches), because it added to a very long list of Labour abstentions when the chips were down on any number of major issues of recent years:

On a Tory bill for an early EU referendum

On retrospectively depriving workfare victims of compensation

On the right of civil servants to strike

On rejecting the siting of nuclear weapons in Scotland

On condemning the Iraq war

On free tuition for students

On minimum pricing of alcohol

On opposing the top-rate tax cut from 50p to 45p

On opposing savage cuts to public-sector pensions

On stopping fuel-duty increases

On maintaining concessionary bus travel for the elderly

On massive pay rises for councillors

On the criminalisation of squatting

On reducing VAT from 20% to 17.5%

On the Scottish budget

On brutal immigration reforms

On fracking

On the bedroom tax

On savage welfare cuts and the benefits cap

On welfare cuts again

When it really matters – and sometimes even when it doesn’t and is just an easy open goal spooned into the stands – you can always count on Labour to do nothing.

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    1. 17 04 18 10:56

      Trampling on graves | speymouth

    539 to “Trampling on graves”

    1. Daisy Walker says:

      All together now in your finest voices, to the tune of ‘what a friend we have in Jesus’

      Whats the point in voting Labour
      They will only just abstain
      Except when claiming their expenses
      Then these troughers know no shame

      They were only flipping houses
      They were only Starting Wars
      Not a Socialist amongst them
      Sold out to the House of Lords

      Whats the point in voting Labout
      They will only just abstain
      Red and Blue they stand together
      Red and Blue they are the same

      Chorus tune
      They Blame the Poor and the Disabled
      They Blame the Migrants at the Docks
      But most of all, when all else fails them,
      They blame it on the bloody Jocks

      Whats the point in voting Labour
      They will only just abstain
      Except when voting for Their Pay Rise
      Then these troughers know no shame

      They were only flipping houses
      They were only Starting Wars
      Not a Socialist amongst them
      Sold out for the House of Lords

      What a friend we have in Corbyn
      Keeping Trident on the Clyde
      And where he stands on good old Brexit
      Is with the Tories, side by side


    2. bobajock says:

      There are more than a few rolling in their graves.

    3. Macart says:

      Caught the breaking from Mr Fisk and had a horrible deja vu moment.

      On Labour abstaining? FFS! Worse than useless. How and ever, well done the SNP for at least forcing a vote on the issue.

      There were a few comments on the last thread on the appalling Jeremy Clarkson comments on Scottish independence and why he couldn’t ‘understand the need’. In both instances above? That should be considered an epic example of a Q.E.D. moment. Also? Are we all now crystal clear on why a party of government vested with powers which put it beyond parliamentary scrutiny or accountability is a BAD THING? And are we all equally crystal clear on why Labour are NOT the saviour of the UK?

      Super. 😡

    4. Ken500 says:

      Labour could have brought down the Tories on 12th Sept 2017. EVEL vote. Labour are just a disgrace. A pathetic disgrace. The unionists Parties. Acting illegally. Sanctioning and starving people. Wasting £Billions on groteque projects of no value. On redundant weaponry of no value. Polluting the Planet, Disgusting. Causing hardship everywhere. Where there is no need. Just proper aid is needed.

      Johnston is causing trouble worldwide. He has been trying to cause trouble with the Russians for years. He must have something on May. Total criminal behaviour. Imbecile. Delusion of grandeur. Hallucinations. Wikipedia.

    5. Thepnr says:

      Labour abstain on most everything because they are really not a single party behind a single manifesto. There are just as many elected Labour MP’s who would feel just as confortable on the benches opposite and voting WITH the Tories.

      This is why the abstain so often, the split would be plain for all the public to see if they were forced to make a choice in a vote. Rather than reveal the split openly they abstain and try to keep it hidden. Labour can’t win the next election as there is no Labour Party in the UK.

      Red Tories.

    6. G H Graham says:

      If you want evidence that Labour is just a charade as indeed are the Tories, this is it.

      Both parties are beholden to the British Establishment. Both spend vast sums on pretending to offer a relief and alternative to the other.

      But this is a fraud, perpetuated by the London media.

    7. Welsh Sion says:

      Labour will do *anything* so as not to support the Scottish and Welsh Nationalists in the House of Commons. (Ditto for Holyrood and the Senedd).

      Quoi de neuf, pussycat ?

      Congratulations on your hymn/song, Daisy Walker. Like to join it to my own parodies, “Songs for the New Politics”?

    8. Bob Mack says:

      After me. THEY ARE NOT LABOUR.

      They are the Other arm of the status quo in the UK.

    9. Calum McKay says:

      Some labour mps are using the Syrian attack as a means to stick the boot into Corbyn, what a principlled bunch they are.

      I assume this bunch are the same people still in denial over the blood they have on their hands over Iraq.

      Many are having growing concerns that Syria and Salisbury are connected, but not by Russia!

    10. Fred says:

      @ Daisy, go to the top of the class!

    11. Jomry says:

      Dear Stuart,
      List of abstentions at end of above article is very informative and useful. However, quite a number of the links have expired – inevitable I suppose -but this reduces its effectiveness. Would it be worth the work involved in delinking expired links to other appropriate sources?

    12. Highland Wifie says:

      What a bunch of useless cretins.
      What is the point of having Labour as an opposition party?
      The SNP, as usual, stand up to be counted but will always be outvoted at WM. The government benches must be laughing themselves silly at how easy this all has become. Democracy in the UK is just a joke now.
      So, as the Wings slogan goes “We’ll take it from here.”

    13. Tinto Chiel says:

      That’s a marvellous crib sheet for the doorstep, Rev, once Indyref2 gets under way. There are still Labour voters to be converted to Yes who will be completely unaware of their party’s dire record in parliament.

      After all, who’s going to tell them? The MSM?

    14. Craig Murray says:

      You know I admire you greatly, Stuart. But you can’t pretend that Blackford coming out and saying he was convinced by the UK security services briefing that Assad had attacked Douma with chemical weapons, did not happen. The SNP then decided to focus on parliamentary process and not on substance.

      As with Nicola strongly supporting May over Salisbury, the SNP leadership if falling massively short of the radicalism needed. I am far from the only one who suspects this is part of a wider malaise encompassing their total failure to set out to the public the argumennts for Independence, for over three years now.

    15. Jomry says:


    16. David McCann says:

      Labour. The chocolate teapots of UK politics!

    17. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “you can’t pretend that Blackford coming out and saying he was convinced by the UK security services briefing that Assad had attacked Douma with chemical weapons, did not happen”

      I made no attempt to deny that at all. I’m on record criticising the SNP for their stance on the Skripal poisonings too. But at least they did the right thing last night.

    18. HandandShrimp says:

      The more Labour changes the more Labour stays exactly the same. Some of the backbench expressions of support for May from Labour really question whether they exist as a cohesive entity at all at the momemnt.

      Quite simply they are a bit weird. If they were any good they would be miles ahead of what has to be the most incompetent PM and Government in living memory. The Conservatives make Brown’s premiership look like the era of a political colossus. That is a considerable feat.

    19. Dr Jim says:

      In the time honoured tradition of upholding the right to have no principles the Labour party has no equal and excel at belligerent mediocrity

      *Vote Labour* we agree with everything and nothing at the same time *You can depend on that*

    20. Donald anderson says:

      Labour are more deceptive making them worse then the official Towries.

    21. Dorothy Devine says:

      Mr Murray , Ms Sturgeon supporting the government over the incredible Skripal affair had the caveat of ‘ what she had been told’- I have no doubt she is more than convinced that it was utter ordure now.

      Capella , thank you for doing that . I have to say when it comes to statesmen Russia wins a thousand times over.

      The labour Party are now beyond parody – bet they wouldn’t /didn’t abstain over MPs pay rises.

    22. Muscleguy says:

      There is clearly no longer any point to the Labour party. They do not and apparently cannot act as an opposition to the Blue Tories. In government they cleave to the right wing tabloids instead of enacting even social democratic things let alone socialist ones. Most of them are indistinguishable from the Tories.

      Poor, downtrodden electorates have voted Labour for generations and they are STILL poor and downtrodden. They are a cure for nothing, a solution for nothing.

      We should abolish them as simply not fit for purpose.

    23. Scott says:

      Legal challenge to devolved Brexit bills

      Poor Scotland we have no rights but May says it was legal to bomb Syria.
      High time we in Scotland declared Independence and see if May would send in the troops and bombs against us.

    24. Craig Murray says:

      Dorothy at 10.30

      Fine – if she then says so.

    25. Bill says:

      There was no chemical attack, it was dust and smoke.

      Some White Helmet shouted, “Gas!”. We went to war based on a Wilfred Owen quote, “Gas, gas, gas!”.

    26. heedtracker says:

      As with Nicola strongly supporting May over Salisbury, the SNP leadership if falling massively short of the radicalism needed.”

      Monstering FM Sturgeon’s SNP for whatever it is Teresa and BJ’s UK gov is up to in London, is pretty radical.

      650 MP’s in Westminster, the all new lucky 13 tory MP’s from Scotland have disappeared completely but its SNP Out.

      Funny that.

    27. Alan says:

      According to the CommonsVotes app, the government managed to scrape up 314 votes. I thought that was interesting, as a combination of all Labour, SNP, Lib Dem, Plaid and Green seats adds up to 314. As Lady Hermon also voted against, that’s a notional total of 315 – although the Lib Dems sat on their hands as well.

      The math doesn’t quite add up, though. Both sides of the division loses two votes to the ridiculous “teller” roles. So unfortunately, 314(+2) beats 313(+2) in the end. Still, a vote that close would have been quite something.

      Might even have tempted a Tory or two to rebel. They can’t take the opportunity if one isn’t provided…

    28. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Mr Murray , Ms Sturgeon supporting the government over the incredible Skripal affair had the caveat of ‘ what she had been told’- I have no doubt she is more than convinced that it was utter ordure now.”

      If she IS convinced of that, she should say so.

    29. Dorothy Devine says:

      ‘It was the right thing to do’ – where have I heard that phrase before?

      Ah yes! That ever so trustworthy chap Blair, Middle East Peace Envoy extraordinaire.

    30. Ken500 says:

      Defence and Foreign affairs are reserved. Scotland outvoted 10 to 1. It does not matter a jolt what the Scottish Gov. SNP or otherwise says on it because people voted NO. To dispute that is irrelevant. Just another diversion by usually unelected procrastinators Who SNP supporters bailed out. Where’s gratitude. Altruism. Rather than divide and rule. Scotland is fighting for it’s very existence. All some people would do is cause trouble in an empty room. That luxury is not available.

      A former ‘diplomat’ who followed the civil service code would know that when it suits. With personal precious grievance. Obviously the SNP membership made the right choice on credible candidature.

    31. Alison Rollo says:

      Brilliant Rev – my donation well spent!! We need this Labour opposition exposed for what they are!

    32. Glamaig says:

      ‘I have no doubt she is more than convinced that it was utter ordure now.’

      I dont think anybody could be convinced of anything in this whole affair, it is all very murky. Best to stay out of those debates, I think, they dont help us. I think the SNP are right to oppose the military action and the way it was decided on, and shouldnt get involved in challenging the actual ‘intelligence’.

    33. Ken500 says:

      Infiltrating ‘Wings’.

      It’s delete and ban on other blogs. Yet harping on about ‘Freedom of speech’ and Democracy? The Emperor has no clothes. The man in the white empire suit.

      Hypocrite doesn’t come into it. Hypocritical unelected mouthpieces. On a questionable? UK Gov pension remuneration. The unionists tried to bankrupt. Attacking the SNP on matters that are reserved in any case because people voted NO.

      Bailed out by SNP supporters. Honest to goodness see some folk. Ingratitude.

      ‘Bedroom tax’, student fees, bridge and roads built, unemployment down, social care, OAP bus travel. Good governance on everything that matters. Mandate for another Ref. Etc, etc.

    34. Helena Brown says:

      I have said for years that Labour are the Establishment Party up to fool the poor benighted jocks that they have democracy. For a long time I have been convinced we have none. Heaven help us all once the Tories feel free of the watchdogs of the EU not a heck of a lot of use to Catalonia, but we have devolution thanks to them.

    35. Craig Murray says:

      Ken500 @ 10.48

      The idea that we Scots should not have our own ideas on Defence and Foreign policy because they are “reserved matters” is a definitive example of cringe. As is the idea that SNP elected representatives should accord with the UK civil service code. Doubtless you think we should only achieve Independence if Westminster tells us we are allowed to. In what way precisely are you in fact a Scottish nationalist?

    36. Merkin Scot says:

      “Obviously the SNP membership made the right choice on credible candidature.”
      The right choice in support of Liberal Intervention,for certain.

    37. Josef Ó Luain says:

      Remind me: what, precisely,is now the point in casting one’s ballot? Anarchy, economically and politically speaking, would seem to be the new-world-order.

    38. Ian McCubbin says:

      Oh FFS is Corbyn impotent or just plain stupid. In real political terms of moving towards government ( Not that I want the guy) this was his once in a generation chance.
      Good on SNP for calling the debate.

      Now they SNP Westminster team should pack up come home and start to Govern Scotland.
      This parliament is now not only broken but incompetent. It does not have a function.
      We have a political junta run from USA.

    39. Big Jock says:

      Rev regards Nicola and the Skirpals -Ian Blackford is now getting briefed by MI6 as a member of the privy council. He seems convinced that there was a chemical attack in Syria and England. However there is no evidence other than the children being sprayed with water in Syria.

      Using water and oxygen is a method used to remove dust from the skin and from the lungs to open the airwaves. Just what is it that Ian Blackford knows that has convinced him?

      I am very worried that the SNP in Westminster is now swallowing anything MI6 chuck at them. Has a deal been struck?

    40. Capella says:

      I can understand Jeremy Corbyn avoiding the embarrassment of exposing the terrible split in the Labour Party. The enemy is behind him. Here is Mr Chris Leslie calmly inserting the knife. Theresa May looked delighted.

      Even so. It would have been more courageous to vote and force the Red Tories to out themselves.

    41. Dorothy Devine says:

      Rev Stu , why would she say that ? To get the Corbyn treatment of ‘Putin’s Pal” ,’Friend of Hamas’ ‘Traitor to the UK’?

      Best to keep opinions in check and let the media make what it will.

    42. heedtracker says:

      In what way precisely are you in fact a Scottish nationalist?

      He’s maybe not in a malaise Craig:D

      In what way precisely is your spectacular monstering FM Sturgeon and the SNP like this, for this appalling tory UK gov’s warfare, based on who knows what, least of or most of all you… furthering Scottish nation statehood?


    43. HandandShrimp says:

      Big Jock

      It is pretty clear that the Skripals (and policeman) were poisoned. The questions are by what and whom?

      Syria? Chlorine is not hard to make and given that everybody in that conflict is pretty ruthless I think it is a hard call without concrete evidence from the inspectors to say who did what.

      However, if part of the privy council all one has to go on are the security briefings provided. If they are later proved wrong as in Saddam’s WMD, the egg is primarily on MI6’s face and Theresa May.

    44. Open the pod bay doors Hal says:

      Not the SNP ‘membership’. The SNP bureaucracy controlled Selection Committee.

    45. Breeks says:

      Craig Murray since you’re reading this…

      There’s a Union busting sovereign Remain mandate from 2016 with a 62% democratic majority in Scotland to keep the UK in the EU.

      It’s a definitive Constitutional argument but right now it’s an orphaned mandate looking for a party to adopt it.

      Call me presumptuous, but I’m thinking a shotgun wedding with YES2 and Craig Murray and while we’re all at the Registry Office, pick up some adoption forms…

      Be clear, I don’t say that with intent to hurt or damage the SNP, but if the SNP genuinely is riven with division over Europe, the indecision it creates is very damaging. If an unapologetically pro-EU YES2 Party was to emerge, and a Soft Brexit SNP Party clarified its EFTA/Soft Brexit agenda, there would suddenly be a roof above the heads of all Yessers, whatever their persuasion regarding Brexit, and suddenly the Brexit Venn diagram which currently divides a YES majority becomes the double YES Venn Diagram which caters for us all.

      Don’t jump to conclusions. Far from damaging the SNP or splitting the SNP vote, with some strategic bargaining and no little amount of faith and understanding, we could end up with a pro-Independence movement which has spadefuls of vital Constitutional radicalism harnessed by YES, but working hand in glove with a studious, and pragmatic SNP constrained by Governmental Office and a caring maternal instinct towards EFTA Soft Brexiteers.

      I know some folks will go defensive on the idea, but in my head that could work and work very well, ASSUMING we commit to battle BEFORE Brexit. If we fail to protect Scotland from Brexit because the SNP is ideologically commuted to a Soft Brexit, then all bets are off. That’s too big a let down to the pro-EU Remainers like me.

    46. Ken500 says:

      Deletes and bans on their own blog. The comes on other’s to disrupt. Then challenges others credentials. Compulsive addictive behaviour. Sticks and stones etc. Pathetic. Bleating about freedom of speech and democracy. Give it a rest. Just get lost. Not doing the cause any favours.

    47. ROBBO says:

      Watching RT News as the only mainstream source of news now noted that accordiong to the Syrians 10 missiles were apparently shot down over HOMS and never reached their target The Americans said it wasn’t their missiles so that leaves either French or British. IF it was the latter then at almost £1m a pop it has cost the UK taxpayer nearly £10m+ for absolutely no reason whatsoever assuming of course that trhe action was indeed legal. legitimate and morally correct.

    48. Big Jock says:

      Everything is too convenient to be the truth.

      The spies were redundant to the Russians so of no special interest. Why would they poison them in such an amateur way with what is now proven to be a mixed cocktail (Non lethal). Then we have the US and France jumping straight in with absolute certainty it was the Russians. Then we have the spies recovered but taken away for questioning…ahem.

      Then a few weeks later an alleged chemical attack in Syria again linked to Russia and Asad. Conveniently during the Easter recess so bombs could be dropped without a mandate.

      All of these actions and decisions were done with haste and without scrutiny.

      The whole thing stinks.

    49. Andy-B says:

      Labour are just another face that’s part of the problem at Westminster.


      Dors anyone have the slightest inkling when the next indyref will be called? I do hope it’s sooner than later.

    50. Street Andrew says:

      Craig Murray says:

      “The idea that we Scots should not have our own ideas on Defence and Foreign policy because they are “reserved matters” is a definitive example of cringe.”

      Independence ? YES

      Political Neutrality ? YES

      Military capability ? YES – under UN Mandate and not otherwise.

      (Except against actual attack – Yeah right we live in constant fear of imminent invasion from….? er….? England possibly; our most dangerous neighbour.

    51. Ken500 says:

      The most important thing is Independence. Even more then EU membership which can be (re) negotiated in any case. Different relationship to UK Union and illegal intransigence.

      Breeks try Murray’s blog or an e-Mail to communicate. He might answer. More time. UK remuneration. Unlike the busier SNP member who did not answer twice. The back side licking going on could be done elsewhere to save pukes.

      SNP badders.

    52. Thepnr says:

      The fact that Labour are currently losing ground to the Tories with everything that is going on astounds me. Corbyn should be ripping the useless May apart at the dispatch box every single week but fails to make even the tiniest dent.

      Labour are a total failure as official opposition precisely because of their failure to oppose on too many important subjects. They fail to oppose as the split within labour is far far deeper than within the Tory party and this would be self evident. They want to keep this split hidden as best they can from their own supporters who know no better.

      They are split over Brextit, Customs Union and Single market. They are split over austerity, split over welfare cuts and the bedroom tax. Remember Rachele Reeves speech:

      “Labour will be tougher than Tories on benefits, promises new welfare chief”

      Now they are even split over whether or not Parliament should have a vote before UK forces attack another country, something that Robin Cook had inscribed on his tombstone. There definately no longer exists a Labour Party in the UK, it died in 1994 along with John Smith and Tony Blairs “New Labour”(Red Tories) took control. Remember PPI and the refusal to scrap Thatchers anti-Union legislation?

      It’s doubtful that Corbyn could ever move his party far enough back to the left to even rank alomgside Smiths Labour. That’s why he’ll never be Prime Minister when he cant even take charge of and lead his own party.

      I hope that remaining Scottish Labour supporters eyes are being opened, as to the all too common dismal performance from Messiah Corbyn and can see that the best option for the people of Scotland to is elect our own choice of government every time in an Independent Scotland.

    53. sensibledave says:

      Rev. Main Article

      You wrote “The House Of Commons held a six-hour emergency debate in the wake of the UK’s unquestionably illegal bombing of Syria at the weekend, under the supposed justification of a chemical attack that may well not have happened at all, far less have been the responsibility of the unfortunate country’s murderous dictator Bashar al-Assad.

      Firstly, with respect to your assertion of the action being “unquestionably illegal”, clearly, in reality, demonstrably and evidentially, the statement “unquestionably illegal” is not true because of the debate we are seeing and hearing on that very subject. Clearly you personally have come to the conclusion that the UK’s actions are “illegal”. It is equally clear that it is the contention of others that it wasn’t.

      The obvious justification by those that were “for” the action is that the use of Chemical Weapons is illegal – and those that that ignore that International Law should suffer some consequences. The obvious point being is that if they don’t suffer any consequences they they might be disposed to do it more and more.

      In terms of an outcome from the bombing, we know for certain that the buildings bombed will not be used for the storage of Chemical Weapons, or anything else, for the remainder of the conflict there.

      With respect to your phrase “…. of a chemical attack that may not have happened…” Nicola Sturgeon Tweeted: “My first thoughts this morning are with service personnel called to action. Syria’s use of chemical weapons is sickening …. ”

      … I “get” that it is the default stance here on Wings to take the polar opposite view to the UK Government on almost any issue, on principle. However, maybe you could show some balance and openly condemn Ms Sturgeon for her lazy, unquestioning acceptance of the charges against Syria and their use of Chemical weapons against its own citizens in contravention of the UN Charters they are signatories to, too?

      Given that there is not a chance in hell that the Russians will allow a UN resolution on inspections and investigations on this subject and given that you oppose the taking of direct intervention to stop the use of chemical weapons, then I conclude that the sum total of your policy is that that the use of chemical weapons is banned and is appalling and awful – but no action will actually be taken against a country that uses chemical weapons – so carry on.

    54. Daisy Walker says:

      @Welsh Sion ‘Congratulations on your hymn/song, Daisy Walker. Like to join it to my own parodies, “Songs for the New Politics”?’

      Help yourself Welsh Sion, that’s why its there, sing it loud and long.

    55. Macart says:

      Just saw this on the Rev’s feed.

      To quote our host – “Here we go, then.”

    56. Craig Murray says:

      Ken 500, I have come here pretty well every day for the last four years, as it is the best pro-Indy site and the centre for the movement. I very seldom comment here – as you say I have my own site – but we seem to be at a key moment for the movement, with the two issues of the date of the next Indyref and SNP support for the UK narrative on cold war with Russia. In my mind those two issues are linked in terms of how comfortable the leadership is operating with the Union devolution settlement. Your attitude that Cold War is a reserved matter is precisely the problem. I want to see what people think, and this is the best place to find out.

      At the hands around parliament event, at a couple of talks I have given to constituency SNP groups, and at the Wingers event in Glenrothes, I found nobody who agrees with the line the SNP leadership is taking on Russia.

    57. HandandShrimp says:

      I see there is to be a second debate on Syria called by Corbyn. Last night’s vote was on whether there had been sufficient debate on Syria. Labour abstained but have now secured a second debate. You couldn’t make it up.

    58. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      17 April, 2018 at 11:39 am
      Rev. Main Article

      There he is, sensible d and his same ol same ol, “well what would you lot do up there in my Scotland region” nonsense.

      You tories are a disgrace to humanity sensibledave.

      We can all see that the Strong and Stable crew have decided that war is good tory politics and that’s all there is to it.

    59. louis.b.argyll says:

      A great article Rev, top of the class.

      Plain truths to bury Labour’s claim to be ‘party of the people’ or acting ‘for the many’.

      Does Labour’s relevance rely on public ignorance about it’s reason for existing.

      Pathetic, Labour.

    60. heedtracker says:

      Craig Murray says:
      17 April, 2018 at 11:29 am
      We both know what it is based on heedtracker.

      Yes Craig but we don’t exist in a bubble. Realpolitik and all that, is the universe that we do have to try to understand.

      Scotland didn’t vote YES, 2014.

      UK gov is the only government we have. All of this is on Strong and Stable Teresa, BJ, the honest and noble UK spooks and so on. Its got nothing to do with Holyrood.

      Monstering FM Sturgeon like this achieves what?

    61. Cubby says:

      Westminster = lying hypocritical warmongers.

      Sensibledave = ignorant boring paid to troll British Nationalist.

      Sensibledave = Westminster.

    62. Daisy Walker says:

      @ Craig Murray

      I very much appreciate your comments. I don’t always share them, but I value the thought and information and care you’ve taken in presenting them.

      I do not know what is going on with the SNP, I read your criticism and it scares me, because on a bad day I share your concerns.

      I read the other side, and hope we are both completely wrong.

      No doubt it would be incredibly damaging if lots of people start voicing your concerns, and the SNP become a spent force. But I value YOUR voice doing so, the devils advocate if you like.

      What is clear, from both points of view, is there is a void, not being filled by the leadership of the SNP, which is engendering and enabling this speculation.

      If, there is a secret, master plan ongoing, they need to start communicating it a branch level, so that folk can keep on track.

      And if there’s not one? The YES movement is going to have to move very quickly.

      I’m sure the SNP will be (or will be forced to say it is) re-assured if we are ready to do so.

      Kind regards.

    63. sensibledave says:


      … unlike you Heedy, I plough my own furrow when it comes to my personal views on issues like this. If it was a Labour or SNP government that had acted then I would have supported them.

      You however find yourself in the tricky position of not believing the UK Government that Syria used chemical weapons – when Ms Sturgeon clearly does. How stupid, naive, ill-informed, gullible is she eh!

      Wriggle away Heedy!

    64. Craig Murray says:


      Nothing forced Sturgeon on 14 March to make a statement on the BBC condemning Russia for the Salisbury attack. Nothing forced Ian Blackford to tell Sky News yesterday that he had been briefed by the UK security services and he accepted Assad had carried out a chemical attack in Douma.

      Your argument may apply if they were silent, but they are acting as an ACTIVE component of the UKOK war propaganda machine.

    65. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      From Stu

      “(Loony left-wing conspiracy theorists casting doubt on Assad’s responsibility for what happened – or didn’t happen – in Douma include, er, Major General Jonathan Shaw, the former head of the UK’s special forces, and Admiral Lord West, the former First Sea Lord under Tony Blair and Minister For Security And Counter-Terrorism in Gordon Brown’s government.)”

      Not to mention Robert Fisk,John Pilger, Craig Murray (Ex UK Ambassador), Peter Ford (ex UK ambassador to SYRIA), and a host of journalists and other observers who actually are or have been in Syria like Eva Bartlett, Vanessa Beely, SCIAF, Rev Andrew Ashdown who all testify that the lie we are being told about Syria is the biggest lie we have ever been told.

      Peter Ford (on BBC TV) stated categorically that the gas attack on Douma was staged and didn’t happen. Robert Fisk has been there and says no gas attack happened.

      Lets have some facts.

      The people of Syria were out on the streets at the weekend waving their flags,singing their anthem and praising their President who gained 80% of the vote in an election judged fair and honest by the 30 countries who supervised it. His party and it allies have 200 seats out to the 250 in Syria’s parliament.

      He is the recognised by the UN and legitimate ruler of a sovereign state which was illegally attacked by the UK/US over the weekend.

      The real story here -and the one our people need to know- is that since 2009 or before the US/UK/Saudi Arabia/ Israel axis has funded and armed ISIS lunatics -yes,the ones that behead children and dismember opponents and eat their hearts in front of camera – in invasion to effect regime change against Assad who wont do as he’s told and who supports the sovereign Iran into the bargain.

      Russia by invitation has come along and helped Syria destroy this illegal and savage invasion and this has completely frustrated The US/UK plan. That is what all this is about.

      Just a question. Are the thousands WE have blown to bits and killed in Mosul (in Iraq -remember Iraq?) recently by bombing that city any more or less dead than people killed by gassing? I am bit puzzled.

      And what would the UK do if it was invaded and lunatics took control of Carlisle. Go to them with coffee and biscuits?

    66. Capella says:

      I don’t see how Nicola Sturgeon can openly and publicly contradict MI6 advice. I’m sure they have the means to discredit her.

      It may be more strategically sound to allow Theresa May and the Westminster Establishment to make the biggest fools of themelves possible. Promoting WW3 is not a good look.

      So far, the SNP and Ian Blackford have trod a careful path through this Syria debacle. Their speeches can be read in Hansard. Just search on page for the MPs you want to check:

    67. ScotsRenewables says:

      Craig Murray says: at 11.44
      At the hands around parliament event, at a couple of talks I have given to constituency SNP groups, and at the Wingers event in Glenrothes, I found nobody who agrees with the line the SNP leadership is taking on Russia.

      What you are saying resonates with me as well Craig, but carping on here does somewhat play in to the hands of the concern trolls. I feel the FM is in danger of overplaying the reasonableness hand . . . I am hoping to have my fears allayed at Conference on the 8th, but it is a long time to wait.

      In the meantime though perhaps we should express our concerns directly to the FM and to our local SNP representatives rather than airing our dirty linen in public and so providing ammunituion for Scotland’s enemies.

    68. heedtracker says:

      You however find yourself in the tricky position of not believing the UK Government that Syria used chemical weapons – when Ms Sturgeon clearly does. How stupid, naive, ill-informed, gullible is she eh!

      Attaboy sensible d. Just like our Craig here, youre both feverishly smearing tory UK gov shite all over your opposition.

      Fair enough. Its how the right works. and ALL of it just more examples of why tory wars are good politics sensible d.

      Your tory party is a living horror but you keep voting for them sensible.

      Brinkmanship like Strong and Stable and BJ’s, with a Russia run by a gangster state like Vlad’s, could be one of humanity’s greatest gambles, made in our name by a pack of tory shits, minority tory government, propped up by brided DUP zoomers.

      But lets all smear FM Sturgeon.

    69. Colin Alexander says:

      According to the Spectator article linked to, it wasn’t the SNP who called the emergency debate, it was a Labour politician, Alison McGoverns.

      The motion put to parliament was also Alison McGoverns.

      However, it appears it was the SNP who forced a vote on Alison McGoverns motion that: “the House has ‘considered the current situation in Syria and the UK government approach’”.

      That’s not a defence of Labour; for me, that it makes it all the more stark that Labour should abstain on that vote ( except Dennis Skinner).

      Stu says it’s illegal bombing. It may be illegal under international law.

      Under the UK constitution, it’s not illegal. It’s exercise of Royal Prerogative, the same abuse of power used by Labour for the Iraq.

      As I said before, if Scotland’s Parliament were sovereign, they could force the amendment of Royal Prerogative’s use in the Union ( and Scottish Parliament) – or dissolve the Union altogether.

    70. Craig Murray says:


      Alex Salmond openly and publicly contradicted MI6 over Iraq in 2003. As did Robin Cook and Charlie Kennedy.

      We won’t achieve Independence with the permission of the UK security services. Anyone who can’t get their heads round that is not up for the coming political struggle.

    71. Thepnr says:


      “I see there is to be a second debate on Syria called by Corbyn.”

      Just went and had a look at Hansard for the proceedings as I thought yesterdays debate was on Corbyn’s motion however there were two proposed both by Labour. One was agreed to take place immediately and Corbyns postponed until today.

      Applications for emergency debate (Standing Order No. 24)

      (1) Jeremy Corbyn proposed that the House should debate Parliament’s rights in relation to the approval of military action by British forces overseas (Standing Order No. 24).

      The Speaker put the application to the House.

      Leave given.

      Debate to be held tomorrow as the first item of public business and to last for a maximum of three hours.

      (2) Alison McGovern proposed that the House should debate the current situation in Syria and the UK Government’s approach (Standing Order No. 24).

      The Speaker put the application to the House.

      Leave given.

      Debate to take place immediately and to last for a maximum of three hours.

    72. colin alexander says:

      Erratum: “amendment of Royal Prerogative’s use in the Union ( and Scottish Parliament)”

      Should have read: Royal Prerogative’s use in the Union ( and Scottish Govt’s use of it too, as part of the Union, or in an independent Scotland).

    73. heedtracker says:

      Your argument may apply if they were silent, but they are acting as an ACTIVE component of the UKOK war propaganda machine.”

      How are they a “component” Craig?

      Pres Obama declared a decade ago that Assad had to go, but he’s still there, despite enormous CIA effort in Syria to get him and bring down the regime.

      Vlad the poisoner is world famous for being accused of murdering or assassinating opponents and journalists.

      Syria and Salisbury are rather a long way away from each other. Again, all of this tory warfare, is tory UK gov warfare, not the SNP, not Holyrood.

      This is all on Prime Minister Theresa May and her government. No one else.

    74. Ken500 says:

      An agent provocateur is doing themselves no favours. Compulsive behaviour. One thing that people should understand people in Scotland historically have always acted within the Law. Through the ballot box. That is likely to continue. Not anarchy. Like some usurpers advocate. Hopping on the bandwagon. Some people have been campaigning against enormous odds for Independence for years. They have succeeded. It is within striking distance and some people are advocating anarchy. Egotistic spoilers. While they were swanning the world in luxury. Agents of the State. M15/16 operators. It will be won fair and square because that is the best policy. It will still take negotiation.

      With ‘friends’ like them who needs enemy. They are playing right into the unionists hands. Luddites. Obviously because it is counter productive. Some people appear to be losing their nerve or their mental facilties. The enemy is not within. It is without. Comprehensive policies.

    75. Legerwood says:

      Interesting article on Syria situation on Newsnet

      Herald now reporting that SNP were in contact with Cambridge Analytica. But no idea who, when or what the meetings were about. Came out during the course of the Committee hearings today in response to a question from the SNP member on the Committee.

      More O/T
      Guardian online report that UK Government’s legislative agenda for Brexit is slipping and may not be passed in time for October deadline with EU.

    76. heedtracker says:

      We won’t achieve Independence with the permission of the UK security services. Anyone who can’t get their heads round that is not up for the coming political struggle.”

      Indeed, for example, its pretty clear there are UK spooks in Pacific Quay, keeping that crew on message.

      Its how it works in their UK region of Scotland. Its what they are paid to do.

      But why are you monstering SNP and FM Sturgeon so hard with it all Craig?

      What do you hope to achieve, going after our best leader so far, Nicola Sturgeon?

      A simple blog statement from you along the lines of, “I disagree with FM Sturgeon statement over Salisbury,” would have been fine. It democracy.

      Why you’ve gone mental at her like this, to the extent that youre now on the side of very hard core unionism in Scotland, is really weird Craig.

    77. Kangaroo says:

      Re: Chemical attack etc

      The MSM are adopting the WM Regime line that there was a chemical attack by Russia in Salsbury and that Assad gassed his own people in Syria. Both claims appear to be lacking in a) Evidence b) Logic c) Credibility

      There are umpteen blogs on these matters which dispute the veracity of either of these claims.

      I have linked to some in earlier threads.
      This one gives a fairly balanced view of the situation in Syria.

      An English QC questions the WM narrative

      There are also various posts on and to give an American angle on these issues.

      Believe what you will but look for the motive and follow the money are good guides.

    78. Effijy says:

      Daisy Walker- 9.58

      You should consider bring out an album?

      Labour should adopt this song as the obvious replacement to “The Internationale”.

      Labour Leaders demand that somebody should do something about anything, but don’t ask us to vote on it.

    79. louis.b.argyll says:

      Senseless Dave, it is illegal without UN ‘backing’ to destroy any part of another country unless they pose an immediate risk to your own nation.

      It’s aggravated assault under International Law, based on a theory conveniently and literally prejudiced by the unconstitutional speed of action.

    80. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Rev (10.45) –

      ‘If she IS convinced of that, she should say so.’

      Exactly. Same for Ian Blackford.

      If, since Salisbury, they’ve seen evidence which proves they’ve been misled they *must* tell us, surely?!

    81. Capella says:

      @ Craig Murray – I agree. But they were Westminster MPs speaking in a debate about launching a war which was clearly illegal and in breach of the UN charter. This time the HoC did not debate before the missile attack.

      Nicola Sturgeon is FM at Holyrood which also did not debate the proposed attack on Syria. The PO would rule that not competent.

      The issue is not only about whether there was a chemical gas attack in Douma IMO. Although hats off to you for exposing the lies on this. It’s about launching an illegal war and trashing the UN Charter. Even the UNSC would not uphold its own Charter.
      The arrogant disregard for international law and the UN shown by the UK, the US and France is “unpardonable folly” to quote Alex Salmond.

      The opposition in Westminster should be calling for Theresa May and Boris Johnson to be sacked for leading us all down nn extremely dangereous path. But the SNP can’t outvote them as Ken500 has pointed out. And Labour are paralysed by fear of splits and the Bain principle.

    82. Robert Peffers says:

      @Craig Murray says: 17 April, 2018 at 10:24 am:

      Now Craig, I much admire much of what you do but your obvious hatred of the SNP is without doubt your most obvious Achilles heel.

      The whole point of the SNP stance on this matter does not require the mental capacity of an Einstein or Stephen Hawking brain. It just requires an open, unfilled by hate, mind-set, or to put that another way – a wee bit of common sense.

      Thing is, if a person does not have the gift of common sense, then they are blinded by what they see as a great chance to take a swipe at their perceived enemy and they wade in with both fists swinging – – and get stopped with a straight right on the chin.

      No matter what the SNP, or any member thereof, had to say upon this matter they were/are going to be crucified by the totally corrupt SMSM. the UKMSM and it particular by the Westminster Establishment’s Propaganda Wing that is the state funded BBC.

      Thus the SNP best option was to do exactly as Nicola Sturgeon has done over several such dilemmas that have raised their ugly Gorgon heads.

      That is to qualify that, acting upon official information provided by Westminster Establishment sources she/they agree with the Westminster view.

      Thus the Westminster propaganda wing cannot castigate them without also castigating the Westminster Establishment no matter how things come out in the end.

      If the Westminster claim turns out to be true than so is that of the SNP but if the Westminster claims are wrong, are lies or are bad in effect, then the SNP needs only say, “But we acted in good faith upon the official information supplied to us by Westminster.

    83. Luigi says:

      RE: Syria. I suspect the SNP are still coming to terms with the events of the past week and have yet to formulate a proper strategy. Not easy when the news (or fake news) changes by the minute. Playing catch-up, I suspect.

      There will come a time when the SNP have to re-radicalise. I’m not sure we are quite there yet, but with May’s challenge to the continuity bill now launched, things are happening fast and I trust there are truly radical plans in place when WM and the “supreme” court (lol) run roughshod over us yet again. Even an “illegal” referendum would keep the independence momentum going and force some very nasty behaviour from WM for all the world to see. I’m not keen on Catalonia style turmoil but it may have to happen that way until the British government realises that it’s a no-win situation for them.

      Well done last night, however, forcing the issue and showing the Labour Party up as the Tory-enablers that they are. How pathetic.

    84. Chick McGregor says:

      Daisy, Daisy,
      You left Labour black and blue,
      Drove them crazy,
      Over the jibes by you.

      Exposed their Tory marriage,
      And socialist miscarriage.

      Your lyric so sweet,
      Deserves a retweet,

      Especially for indyref2.

    85. Iain McGlade says:

      We spend a lot of time looking at the situation around us and hoping that Nicola will call an Independence Referendum. Well I think it’s time we started doing things ourselves.
      In the 1950s a covenant signed by over 2 million Scots demanded devolution. Ultimately, it failed but it did manage to get that many signatures, so I see no reason why we can’t just run a referendum ourselves in the form of a modern Scottish Covenant.
      The text is in place already. The Scottish Covenant Association exists already and those signatures are now being collected. Boots on the ground is what’s needed.
      Who is interested in stepping out from behind their keyboard and making this happen?

    86. Artyhetty says:

      So without the SNP at WM, the English government could now be called a one party state. When did the Labour party last oppose the Tories, really oppose them. Didn’t Corbyn say that the attack on Syria was likely illegal? It was all over the papers even RTnews reported him as saying so. I wonder if RTnews would like to know just how that faux socialism really behaves in parliament, when all is said and done. Utter disgrace.

      Corbyn is fooling many into a false sense of cosy choice in voting for a faux socialist opposition. A canny move indeed.

      Labour, keeping the tories in power, treating the people like idiots, while supping at the trough. No friend of Scotland and anyone who thinks they are is an actual idiot.

    87. Breastplate says:

      Craig Murray,
      Agreed, every single one of the SNP should have had their arse firmly welded to the fence including Nicola.

      Corbyn who is also on The Privy Council thought it all smelled like shite so what made this “intelligence” confusing and difficult to interpret exactly?

    88. geeo says:

      Coco said this.

      “Stu says it’s illegal bombing. It may be illegal under international law.

      Under the UK constitution, it’s not illegal. It’s exercise of Royal Prerogative”.

      Such a child like grasp of a grown up subject.

      Royal Prerogative is nothing to do with bypassing International law, you utter muppet.

      That allows the PM to bypass parliament to take action, however, that action must still satisfy International law.

      All countries must abide by international law (clue is in the title, coco).

      And finally, wee coco, there is no such thing as a written uk constitution, but if you think there is, please link to it, by all means.

    89. Effijy says:

      Labour MP’s have no passion this is not a vocation where they want to fight to improve the lives of the masses.

      Its a well paid job with good privileges and a damn good pension.

      We know for a fact that the majority of Labour MP’s do not support Corbyn and they voted to put him out.

      When Corbyn faired better in the last election, they see that supporting him made their seat on the gravy train much more secure.

      Just tell them what you want to hear and you will get no argument
      from them. They will adopt whatever to keep the money flowing in.

      Flip Houses, take part time jobs with the crooked banks, batter their expenses and aim for that Ermine Robe.

      That’s a Labour MP in a nutshell.

    90. Derick fae Yell says:

      Must admit I can’t get too interested in the assorted Squirrels that helpfully distract from the ongoing shambles of Brexit, or the ‘minor’ matter of the wholesale subversion of democracy resulting from the Cambridge Analytica yak yak.

      There’s a rather more relevant matter closer to home.

      The much maligned Nicola Sturgeon, and Mike Russell, who has been outstanding, have successfully piloted the Continuity Bill through Parliament. And in doing so have isolated the Tories (and Mike Rumbles: silly man). And all without once mentioning the dread word, Independence.

      The fact that the UK Government is seeking to overturn the expressed will of the Scottish Parliament is a gift. It’s astonishing that they are this stupid. Material change?

      Labour and the Lib Dems are not a monolithic bloc. I think of Margo McDonald, in the sunshine in Princes Street Gardens, six years ago (my God!) who observed that ‘they have doubts too’.

      Watch this space

    91. Luigi says:

      Robert Peffers says:

      17 April, 2018 at 12:41 pm

      No matter what the SNP, or any member thereof, had to say upon this matter they were/are going to be crucified by the totally corrupt SMSM. the UKMSM and it particular by the Westminster Establishment’s Propaganda Wing that is the state funded BBC.

      Robert, the MSM are going to crucify them anyway, so what’s to loose. This is the same rabbit in the headlights fear that has crippled the Labour Party.

      The SNP government have demonstrated sound political managerial skills in power (limited as it is). However, the stakes are rising rapidly, and the SNP will have to re-radicalise soon. Remember Salmond’s sensational “unpardonable folly” statement. More of this please. 🙂

      Gradualism is fine – to a point. Flexible radicalism is the way to go now IMO.

    92. Thepnr says:

      Nicola Surgeon and the SNP in general are always between a rock and a hard place when it comes to making any comment on just about any subject to the MSM.

      Let’s face it all the enemies of the SNP would have been rubbing their hands with unbridled glee if the FM had done anything other than she did in supporting May “based on what she was told”.

      That could mean anything but you are left with little choice other than to take people at their word at least initially or until proven otherwise.

      The media in Scotland would have been totally full of the “News” of how Strurgeon and Salmond are both stooges of the Kremlin and no doubt hints of mysterious funding. Sturgeons support for Russia and Putin would have proved their point that the Salmond show on RT was simply Russian progaganda.

      They were definately after a stance that could be deemed pro-Russian and this kind of tripe would be believed by many people in Scotland not least by those who love to shout it from the rooftops and have twitter storms.

      Sometimes the better course of action is to deprieve them of Oxygen, the worst they got from Nicola Sturgeons statement was that the SNP is a story of how there is now a split because of Sturgeons view of the Salisbury attack. A minor consolation prize in comparison.

      They desterately want the SNP and supporters to be viewed as Russian stooges (as well as Natzi’s)and have been trying this to paint this picture for months now. The FM didn’t need to hand them any ammunition over this.

      Governing an Independent Scotland is our goal and that of the SNP, to do that we need to win more votes and with the media we have. The pro-indy politicians are forever walking on eggshells when it comes to dealing with propaganda.

    93. Breastplate says:

      Also, why are people so eager to give U.K. intelligence services a free pass when it comes to providing proof to us, the people who pay their wages.

      All of this is an obvious witch hunt and it’s quite unseemly that our own representatives have got us involved in it.

    94. Derick fae Yell says:

      Thepnr 12:54

      Spot on.

    95. Confused says:

      More context.

      – the comments are pretty good too.

      Israel lost an F-16 a short time ago, now the US and UK are gone all “Wrestlemania” on Syria after these implausible and hysterical stories – but the timing is likely to be coincidental, surely.

      Now those poor red sea pedestrians have to fly into Lebanon in F-15s to release stand-off weapons – and where’s the fun in that?

      Where do all these “gassing” memes come from, I wonder? And why does “gassing” have more mileage than shooting or burning people? It’s almost like someone has created a cultural meme to be used as a weapon.

      What the SNP do, or don’t do, makes no difference to this drama – but they have declined the obvious banana skin – and made Labour look like the spineless shits they are.

    96. HandandShrimp says:


      I too am bored by the squirrels. The poisonings in Salisbury are a matter for the police and Syria is slow motion car crash that will play out its gory finale with or without our attention.

      In the meantime the Westminster Government mismanages everything from Windrush to Brexit. There are pressing issues to be dealt with and these are relevant to Holyrood and Scotland.

    97. Luigi says:

      Time to confront the demons:

      Much of the political power of the BBC and their tory press chums, lies not so much in the way they influence the public (growing numbers of people no longer trust them), but in the fear they instill in politicians. The Labour party in particular has been crippled by this for years. So many opportunities to crush the tories have been lost for fear of how the media will respond. Trust in the MSM is at an all-time low – what’s to loose by facing them head on?

      Time to grow a pair and take the MSM on.

    98. Breastplate says:

      “Janet Horne (died 1727) was an alleged witch from Scotland, and the last person to be executed legally for witchcraft in the British Isles.[1]

      Janet Horne and her daughter were arrested in Dornoch in Sutherland and imprisoned on the accusations of her neighbours. Horne was showing signs of senility, and her daughter had a deformity of her hands and feet. The neighbours accused Horne of having used her daughter as a pony to ride to the Devil, where she had her shod by him. The trial was conducted very quickly; the sheriff had judged both guilty and sentenced them to be burned at the stake. The daughter managed to escape, but Janet was stripped, smeared with tar, paraded through the town on a barrel and burned alive. Nine years after her death the witchcraft acts were repealed in Scotland.”

      This is what we are taking part in right now.

    99. Capella says:

      @ Luigi – perhaps NS prefers to be crucified for engineering indepenence. Better to pick your crucifictions carefully.
      She’s still in office and the most popular and influential woman in the UK.

    100. Sinky says:

      BBC Scotland lunch time TV news headlines has no mention of Supreme Court attack on Scottish democracy but two Rangers players suspended for criticising their manager considered much more important.

    101. sensibledave says:


      You wrote “Agreed, every single one of the SNP should have had their arse firmly welded to the fence including Nicola.”

      …. or, to paraphrase for you, forget about doing the right thing, forget about moral responsibility, forget about being a responsible leader of a country …. far more important that the SNP puts itself in a position to score political points.

      The next thing you will be writing is about how the SNP are ignored at Westminster. Well, you reap what you sow. You are actually advocating that SNP MPs elected to Westminster to represent their constituents should not actually say what they believe! Amazing.

      Avoid taking a position. Avoid saying what you believe. Avoid having a view. Dither at all costs.

      You should be very proud.

      Truly Pathetic.

    102. galamcennalath says:

      Reserved matters and Scotland.

      I strongly expect the SNP to have views and policies on all matters, reserved or otherwise. I expect MPs to robustly pursue those policies at every possible opportunity. I expect the party leadership to do the same, no matter where they are elected to.

      I want the devolved Scottish Parliament to have discussions and express opinions in all matters concerning Scotland. They should, as a body, vote to make their consensus known and put on record. That includes reserved matters. It is one route we, as a nation and country, can project our views towards WM. the BritNats wouldn’t agree – tough!

      The Scottish Government, I expect to carry out the manifesto pledges on which they were elected.

      The problem, of course, is that means the same individuals wearing different hats. So what!?

    103. dakk says:

      @ sensibledave said

      ‘If it was a Labour or SNP government that had acted then I would have supported them.’

      You British Nationalists very rarely miss an opportunity to support bombing countries who don’t kow tow to your lieing, theiving,warmongering machinations.

      You people could not give a shit about who is dieing in Syria,Yemen,or the UK for that matter.That I do know 100%.

      Any pretext for war and showing who’s the bully.

    104. Thepnr says:

      Applications for emergency debate (Standing Order No. 24)

      (1) Jeremy Corbyn proposed that the House should debate Parliament’s rights in relation to the approval of military action by British forces overseas (Standing Order No. 24).

      I thought well at least they won’t abstain on tonights vote and must support Corbyns motion.

      But now I’ve just read on twitter that Labour MP’s are being whipped to vote NO!.


    105. ScottieDog says:

      @Robert Peffers
      “No matter what the SNP, or any member thereof, had to say upon this matter they were/are going to be crucified by the totally corrupt SMSM. the UKMSM and it particular by the Westminster Establishment’s Propaganda Wing that is the state funded BBC.”

      Correct and hence the tactical decision by the SNP. I also wonder In the event of official widespread disbelief by the opposition if something even more sinister would happen just at the ‘right’ time to drive home the point.

      We can see that better together never really went away. For example the increasingly Hawkish herald and its lunatic chief reporter will gladly implicate Russia with yes2. Spinning out russiagate will be welcomed I’m sure by the tories in their bid to distract about brexit. The SNP have effectively said, ok we believe you, now let’s move on. I know that upsets people but I see why they have done it.

    106. Breastplate says:

      Sitting on the fence not apportioning blame when there is no proof of anything is the right thing to do.

      P.S. You are still a liar.

    107. heedtracker says:

      You should be very proud.

      Truly Pathetic.

      Only a tory twit like you sensibledave, can smear 36 out of 650 Westminster MP’s, and all with the horror that is Strong and Stable Teresa, her awful sidekick BJ and tory UK gov.

      Well not just you sensible d, ofcourse not just you.

      Do you actually have any moral centre or core at all sensible dave, you tory creeps I mean and ofcourse your horrendous Beeb gimp led media?

    108. Welsh Sion says:

      To my kindred spirit, Daisy Walker @ 11.40am:

      (Adapted from “My Way” … appropriately enough, the most popular song at cremations.)

      “Our Way”

      And now, the end is here.
      And so Labour faces the final curtain.
      My friend, I’ll say it clear:
      I’ll state my case, of which I’m certain.
      They’ve lived their life, now it must end;
      They troughed on each and ev’ry highway
      And more, much more than this, they did it their way.

      Regrets? No – they have none, that’s very true.
      Nor a conscience, not worthy of mention
      They served themselves and saw it through, without exemption
      They planned each charted course, each careful step along the byway,
      And more, much more than this, they did it their way.

      Yes, there were times, I’m sure you knew
      When they bit off more than they could chew
      But through it all, when there was doubt,
      They gorged themselves – kept nothing out
      They were in it all, stood for themselves and did it their way.

      They’ve troughed, they’ve laughed and lied.
      We’ve had our fill, our share of losing.
      And now, as tears subside, we find it all so amusing:
      To see Labour falling apart.
      And may I say, not in a shy way,
      “Oh, no, no, no longer them – we’ll do it our way!”

      For what is a man, what has he got?
      If not himself, then he has naught.
      To say the things he truly feels and not the words of one who kneels:
      The record shows we took the blows and will do it our way!
      Yes, it will be our way!

      (c) Songs for the New Politics

    109. Luigi says:

      I’m not sure the Labour approach (ie. bending over backwards to placate the media) is going to work for the SNP. Come Indyref 2 (or even a hint of it) and the MSM will go full-on attack mode anyway. 100% certainty. So what’s to lose?

      Actually, here is some food for thought:

      If the MSM are nice to the SNP government occasionally, then when they start attacking during IndyRef 2, they will gain some traction.

      However, if the SNP government and the British media are already at each other’s throats, then the IndyRef attacks will just look like deja vu. Less people will listen. The response will be “Well they would say that, wouldn’t they?”

      Bring on more MSM attacks now, I say. Then by IndyRef 2, they will be a spent force. People wise up eventually, but most people do need some time to “get it”. No point in waiting for the referendum campaign (by then it’s too late). Let’s wage war on the MSM now. 🙂

    110. Liz g says:

      Craig Murray @ 11.44
      Well at Glenrothes, you didn’t speak to me on the subject Craig!
      While I absolutely agree with your take on the whole situation.
      I can see why Nicola,took the stand that she did.
      It’s no for her to prove that May is lying!
      And I’m sure that she will tell us all how shocked she is if it ever comes out that she was lied to and how as a Privay Councillor she expected to get only the truth!!!

      She is the Leader of a Western democracy (stoap laughing)
      and as such,I think that her stance was a purely political one.
      As in she is demonstrating that if there is a Threat (I know) that Scotland will support it’s allies.
      At this point in time and in this instance,it cost her nothing.
      And she and her party cannot be portrayed as Tra***s to the safety and security of this island.

      She is, I think, choosing to take the Westminster establishment at their word.
      I know its all shit
      You know its all shit
      She probably knows its all shit.
      But unless and until there is definitively proof,she would be whistling in the wind to argue.
      She would be condemned for staying silent!
      So why shouldn’t she make political gains from their mess,and be ready to stand back when the shit hits the fan.
      Its no as if she could have changed anything about how it played out.
      When we are Independent,its a different story,but we’re not!
      I see it as a political stance,it’s not nice, but as I’m sure you know politics isn’t nice!
      Although the Media have been nice to the Scottish politicians this week ….don’t ye think?

    111. schrodingers cat says:

      agree with pnr and derek fae yell

      the supreme court story is my focus too,
      anyone care to point out the legal arguments?

      btw, the snp need to appeal to more than just the yes/snp supporters for us to win induyref2

      nicola does what is politically expedient towards that end.

    112. Macart says:


      Pretty much.

      There was no good answer to be given by SG. Whichever stance they took, they were in for a bad day at work. Doesn’t take much imagination to picture the headlines and tack of the media in this instance.

      The plain fact is what people don’t know could fill libraries. Too many releases and not a lot of trust in the sources. But then, that’s probably the point. The truth may be in amongst them somewhere, but getting to it is another thing entirely.

      Also? I’m just as concerned at what is occurring under the radar whilst all these fireworks are going off. The legal challenge to the Scottish parliament’s continuity bill has been launched and apparently Westminster’s Brexit plan has hit yet more timing difficulties.

    113. Bill McLean says:

      How do I copy that list of Labour abstentions so that I can print them off. Really like Craig Murray and his blog but think he is going over the top re Nicola! Ian Blackford – not so sure!

    114. Cubby says:

      Colin Alexander@12.11 says

      “Under the U.K. Constitution”

      I would like to read this constitution. Can you tell me where you can find it? Or has a squirrel ran off with it.

    115. schrodingers cat says:

      re the supreme court

      they’re a bunch of un reconstructed unionist bampots.

      westminster wouldnt have referred this to them if they didnt already know what their answer would be.

      long before they scrape the bottom of the barrel, along with ancient rulings regarding royal prerogatives and henry the 8th, I’m sure they will find an law from Longshanks ( “Bon besoigne fait qy de merde se delivrer”… etc) to justify the decision they have already taken.

      the real question is…… what do we do then?

    116. Breastplate says:

      Schrödinger’s cat,
      Regarding the Continuity Bill, my understanding of it is that Westminster would like to intercept the Powers coming from the EU to Scotland.
      They promise us they would only like to touch, smell and caress these Powers before handing them all (some) back;
      A. FUBAR
      B. Undamaged.

      Also, they think if it comes directly to us, it’s illegal. They know this because Ken Macintosh said so.

    117. Robert Louis says:

      There is no such thing as the UK constitution. Westminster and its ‘scottish’ britnat worshippers, all like to proudly boast that the UK has ‘an unwritten constitution’. This is hogwash. If, for example their was such a thing, it would set out very clearly the responsibilities for a Prime Minister choosing to take military action – something it is abundantly clear their are no rules at present to control.

      No, the idea of a UK ‘unwritten constitution’ is one which suits the English establishment. It means that where issues such as Scotland arise, they can cite ‘accepted norms and principles’ based upon nothing at all.

      I do hope the SNP are ready, that when the Scottish Parliament’s democratically expressed wishes in the brexit continuity bill are ruled ‘illegal’ by the London pretendy ‘UK supreme court’, that they call the referendum.

      It is time. Get on with it, FFS. How many more insults are you prepared to let Scotland face, and make no mistake this legalese nonsense in the English pretendy ‘UK supreme court’ is not only an insult to the people of Scotland ,but also to democracy. If Westminster no longer plays by the ‘rules’, then it is time for Scotland to stop playing by the ‘rules’ as well. If Westminster ceases to respect Holyrood, then Holyrood needs to stop[ respecting Westminster. If westminster says ‘these are not normal times’, and so rules can be ignored, then so too the Scottish Government should say these are not normal times, and cease to observe the rules. It is that simple.

      We simply cannot sit back whinging, when Westminster is riding roughshod over our democracy.

      Whinging about this will not do, as Westminster couldn’t give a flying ****. The Scottish Government and SNP need to act. Call the freaking referendum. Put up or shut up.

    118. Big Jock says:

      I get the argument that the SNP are damned if they do and damned if they don’t condemn the alleged chemical attacks. However when you are not sure if what is being presented is the truth. You don’t take the easiest path, which is too simply play the game and tow the line to appease the media.

      In fact you let your moral judgement come into play in these circumstances. That is you don’t rush to blame without evidence, you don’t accept without question and you stick to your moral compass and ignore the white noise it generates.

      The SNP were simply wrong in the language immediately after the incidents. MI6 are a bunch of lying batshits and Blackford and Sturgeon should not accept what they are being told.

      I am a lifelong SNP member and I have never seen such a weak response to something this important. Sometimes we have to admit our party took the wrong decisions and move on.

      I hope they have both learned from this.

    119. Thepnr says:


      “I’m not sure the Labour approach (ie. bending over backwards to placate the media) is going to work for the SNP. Come Indyref 2 (or even a hint of it) and the MSM will go full-on attack mode anyway. 100% certainty. So what’s to lose?”

      I don’t think there can be much further ot go before it becomes “full-on” it certainly feels that way now to me at least.

      “Let’s wage war on the MSM now.”

      No this I do of course agree with and my own small way have done so buying refusing to pay for their bog paper or the telly tax. I’ve complained to the BBC and IPSO without any success.

      I think you though menat that the SNP should be waging war on the MSM now and if so how would that be done? The only possible way I could see is by non co-operation and refusal to be interviewed ar issue statements of any kind.

      Unfortunately I do not see that as helping the Independence cause in any way.

      You can’t wage war against the MSM by providing them with ammunition, if Nicola Sturgeon for example had stated she doubted the Governments “evidence” on the Skripal poisoning she would have been slaughtered in the MSM and I think that’s beyond dispute. She took the smarter move on stating that her view was based on what she’d been told.

      We can’t beat them if our most important politicians actual words are used against them in an to attempt to destroy that politicians credibility.

      There is still unfortunately so much ignorance out there among the general population and we cannot forget that, every statement and every off the cuff remark will be used against the Independence movement wherever possible.

      We learned that lesson in 2014, we must not forget those lessons in my view. Don’t feed the MSM who are the fattest trolls.

    120. Robert Peffers says:

      @Iain McGlade says: 17 April, 2018 at 12:43 pm:

      “We spend a lot of time looking at the situation around us and hoping that Nicola will call an Independence Referendum. Well I think it’s time we started doing things ourselves.”

      Let’s all get one thing abundantly clear, Iain.

      The SNP are a political party formed by a merger of political parties in 1934. Their main manifesto policy has always been Independence for Scotland. The YES movement is something quite different and it is NOT a political party.

      The YES movement was a wonderful and spontaneous grass-roots rising of awareness by cross-party and no party people, from all walks of life, and from all social groups in all parts of Scotland. It was, and still is, exactly what you described as people, “doing things for themselves”.

      The obvious question is thus – Why the hell have they stopped doing things for themselves, and are now bitterly generally sitting around on their backsides doing nothing, but complaining that, “The SNP are doing nothing”? Let’s be quite clear the SNP are NOT doing nothing. They are doing many things.

      The SNP are a political party and they have elected members on local councils, in the Scottish Parliament, The United Kingdom Parliament and the European Parliament. As such they are working their socks off in all levels of government and that is their remit. They are doing it very well indeed. If you want to support them in doing so then do two things – join the party, vote for the party and even work to help run the party.

      However, if you are NOT a party member , or even if you are a party member, and you also want to be part of the YES movement towards an independent Scotland them get up and do something about it. You can be, but need not be, an SNP member or even an SNP supporter to be part of the larger YES Movement. The two things are linked but not exclusive to one another.

    121. Dan Huil says:

      In 1918 it was Empire1.0 when the Middle East was carved up by the whim of the West. Now it’s Empire2.0 and the West continues to carve.

      Every time the West intervenes in the Middle East it makes matters worse. The consequences of this latest military action will be no exception. These bombs won’t bring peace. Sadly it is almost inevitable that innocent men, women and children will again experience such suffering in the future.

      Bairns not Bombs? Sadly not. And if things deteriorate as a result? So be it. The West had to do something, didn’t it?!

      Nope. It’s about time the West stayed out of the Middle East.

    122. schrodingers cat says:

      re the bombings in syria…

      this issue is becoming murkier by the minute

      nick yardley
      Hmmm…. @StewartMcDonald accuses government of offering selective intelligence briefings to MPs on opposition benches who it thinks might be sympathetic to its case on Syria. Speaker says it’s a matter for the Government.

      since the tories will always unite around the issue of bombing brown people, this will divide the labour party more.

      as macart says what folk dont know would fill a library.

    123. Breastplate says:

      Big Jock,
      Agreed, alas there aren’t many politicians who believe integrity is of any merit nowadays.
      I think SNP supporters are entitled to voice their displeasure at what they believe to be simply wrong.

    124. Ken500 says:

      The SNP rightly under electoral rules collected web addresss which were freely given under the understanding of the purpose to build a web address facility to give people information about Ibdependence and the SNP. Referendum etc. That is completely legitimate political electoral behaviour within legal electoral expenses encumberence. It is just building up a freely and legitimate given data website.

      If people in anyway did not want to give that information it could be totally and legitimatey withheld. Collecting, names addresses under these conditions is totally within the data protection Laws and happens every day in society. Using the electoral roll within certain legal parameters is also acceptable. Or even a few internet ads. Most unlikely unless it is used to contact members which can be freely shared with others privately (Facebook) with an application facility to block.

      This is totally different to what Cambridge Analytica SCL was doing. Controlled by Tories. Illegally harvesting Facebook information and sending influencing, unsolicited messages. Judging by preferences. Totally illegally without permission. It is highly unlikely in any case the Tories would be helping the SNP with any information in any case. Unless it was entrapment. The SNP could not probably afford the costs under the electoral limitations. In any case. Not having Billionaire support. The EU Ref Leave organisation spending over £1/2Billion over elections limits. They should really be put in jail. Totally unlawful. Facebook has already admitted responsibility in not protecting data.

      People do not have to be on Facebook. Tax evaders. To share information. They just need to be on the internet. Phone or mail.

      There were reports one of the Billionaires supported Scottish Ihdependence for some perverse reason. It could mean Brexiteer ‘paradise’ tax haven for the rest of the UK? Or some such notion. It is too far fetched to even check. Failed in any case.

      Were Cambridge Analytica or SCL involved in the dirty illegal tricks during the Indy Ref, EU Ref and GE. All should be declared null and void.

      There was a legitimate 2million people petition supporting Independence. Before the widespread internet use. Just collected.

    125. Breastplate says:

      They already detest Nicola, the SNP and by extension us. Hating us a wee bit more won’t make it worse, appeasement is what will make it worse.

      Of course, this is only my opinion.

    126. heedtracker says:

      I am a lifelong SNP member and I have never seen such a weak response to something this important. Sometimes we have to admit our party took the wrong decisions and move on.

      I hope they have both learned from this.

      Nice but no actual investigations have been completed yet, Salisbury or Syria.

      Criticism is healthy but you know, you’re no different from all the vast yoonster armies out there, if you’re doing it now.

    127. Ken500 says:

      More dirty tricks. To kill and maim innocent people. What on earth are the Westminster crooks up to. Do they not have any integrity at all. They just break the Law with impunity. Including the ministerial code of conduct. Labour being whipped to vote against their own motions. They wonder why people get frustrated and angry. Do they not have any scruples among them. What on earth is going on? It just gets more and more difficult. They need to be held to account not get away with murder. What a mess. A total shambles.

    128. Luigi says:

      I understand both sides of the argument RE: to attack or hold back with the media. There are times when a different approach would suit. Pros and cons.

      I just hope this spirit of appeasement and playing by re rules does not last ad finitum.

      Always remember, WM changes the rules so that they always win.

      I don’t want us to be the losing team that gets the “Fair Play” award.

      Just sayin. 🙂

    129. colin alexander says:

      RE: the UK Constitution.

      The UK does have one of sorts:

      The problem being, much of it is convention. The result is that those conventions are used and abused with little or no real redress.

      More importantly, there is little or nothing to stop those conventions from simply being ignored or abused, as they are simply convention, not legally enforceable.

      For example, the Sewel Convention and most recently, military action without the consent of parliament, when it seemed following Iraq, the convention was that normally ( except in the most urgent of cases) parliament would need to vote on military action instead of using Royal Prerogative.

    130. Robert Peffers says:

      @Artyhetty says:17 April, 2018 at 12:47 pm:

      “So without the SNP at WM, the English government could now be called a one party state. When did the Labour party last oppose the Tories, really oppose them.”

      Never. The whole Westminster Establishment, (it is far bigger than just the HOC & HOL), has always been a sham. I’ve been preaching that gospel for nigh on 60 years now.

      Let me mention just a couple of wee little known facts now.
      The first is that the term, “The United Kingdom”, does not describe a country nor does it describe a political state.

      It describes a monarchy and a monarchy has a non-elected head of State. The whole of the three country Kingdom of England is headed by a legally sovereign monarch and as such it cannot be a proper democracy. In effect the people of that kingdom are her Majesty’s subjects and as they elect Members of Her Majesty’s Parliament then they are electing members who are delegated Her Majesty’s sovereignty.
      The only other partner kingdom in the United Kingdom is the Kingdom of Scotland but under Scots law the people, not Her Majesty, are sovereign and so the people of Scotland delegate their legal sovereignty to their elected members of government at all levels of government.

      The second little known fact is that there is a person who sits next to the speaker in the House of Commons who is known as, “The Remembrancer”, and who is never mentioned not even in Hansard. This, “Remembrancer”, is the representative of, “The City of London”, (Not London City), these are two different things. The City of London is the one square mile financial area within London City. There are thus two Lord Mayors. The City of London is actually an independent City State.

      The Remembrancer represents the financial City of London and sits by the Speaker in the Commons. Red about it all here:-

    131. Thepnr says:

      @Big Jock

      “However when you are not sure if what is being presented is the truth.”

      I totally get where your coming from but if your only information on any topic is that presented to you as the truth on what basis do you have to mistrust it?

      Until other information arises that contradicts the original information then there is in my opinion no basis to mistrust it.

      Chartered Accountants audit big and small companies, they work with the information provided to them on trust, well it very often turns out that information was false but until it does it is deemed to be true.

      Shona Robison got rid of the Chairman and CEO of NHS Tayside last week or so after the revealing of “accountancy scandals” in other words the true accounts were being hidden and only after more information arisies can action be taken.

      Simply all relationships and business untimately works on trust and 99% of the time this is justified, there are always though the few bad apples in the barrel.

      Speak out against abuse or corruption in every case of course that is right. It’s prudent though to wait until you have evidence you have been lied to though before opening your mouth or you might just put your own foot in it.

      Personally I’ve no doubt there are many many lies surrouding both Salisbury and Syria but that has only become apparent as time has passed and doubt levels have been raised enormously.

      I’m not FM though so don’t need immediately to give any view to the MSM “based on what I’ve been told” or read in the papers.

    132. Merkin Scot says:

      “Stu says it’s illegal bombing. It may be illegal under international law.

      Under the UK constitution, it’s not illegal. It’s exercise of Royal Prerogative, the same abuse of power used by Labour for the Iraq.”
      No. Simply No.
      Even if there were to be a UK constitution, the UK would have to leave the UN to exercise the Royal Prerogative (or are you saying the Saxe-Coburg Gotha woman trumps the UN as well?)

    133. Thepnr says:


      I don’t mind being hated nor if I get hated by the MSM as a vile cybernat a little more.

      Like the vast majority that read Wings my only hope is for an Independent Scotland and we all know that the biggest barrier to that is an hostile MSM witheir their lies and propaganda.

      We need to avoid the banana skins that make the whole movement look bad in the eyes of those further suppoerters we need to win over. This is one of the main reasons in my opinion that the first referendum was almost entirely peaceful. If anyone was going to cause trouble it wasn’t going to be the vile nats.

      I know they’ll continue to print shite as their headlines and omit to tell the general public on BBC shortbread of what is actually happening. Think Continuity Bill ommission taday’s BBC lunchtime news alraedy mentioned here.

      When they print obvious lies then the likes of Wings can expose them as such, when they print what an SNP politician actually says and uses those words to warp, corrupt and twist their words then we can do nothing about it.

      It sometimes is best to take the approach “No Comment”.

    134. schrodingers cat says:

      2013 cameron asked parliament to allow him to bomb assad. they said no. The russians supported assad with money and arms

      the us/uk/saudi invested billions training and arming the FSA only to announce that the total forces created numbered……4 soldiers. nb, not a typo. most simply defected, with their arms, to other rebel forces, ISIS, Al Nusra(al qaeda) etc.
      when it was realised how bad isis were, the russians got involved directly (2015) and the uk/us realised their mistake and decided to bomb the rebels instead.

      us/uk policy in syria has been a disaster, paralysed by contradiction, assad and the russians have all but wiped out isis and are now moping up the remaining pockets of al nusra resistance in places like douma.

      the us/uk and france are not mounting an offensive, this latest bombing is just a last jolly for their own local political distractions before they pull out for good leaving the russians with a huge toe hold in the middle east.

      pound for pound, al nusra are no better than isis, public beheadings of syria army soldiers, civilians and non wahabbist muslims etc, The SA are no saints either.

    135. Luigi says:

      The Achilles Heel of the BBC and Tory MSM is their English Nationalism. The SNP have to get clever and bait them into revealing their true racist, jingoistic instincts. In other words, they have to invite MSM attacks (on carefully chosen ground, of course). The “English” response will not go down well in Scotland.

      So come on SNP, oppose the shenanigans re Syria – call it out for what it is – “unpardonable folly”. Invite them to slaughter you in the press. Their English nationalism will quickly be revealed and it will not be pretty. It will; certainly not go down well in Scotland.

      Get clever, bait the MSM, expose their English nationalism and you will be surprised how many ordinary people in Scotland support you. I suppose one good thing about NS being such a nice person is that if/when she does go out of character and launch a brutal attack, people will sit up and listen what she has to say.

    136. Big Jock says:

      I think a lot of people are missing my central argument.

      My argument is not to rush to judgement. The Russians have been accused, not convicted. The SNP essentially backed the Tories line that it was the Russians. Well correct me if I am wrong but that’s my whole point here. The story starts to unravel after the SNP already backed the government. At least Corbyn had the balls to initially say he wasn’t convinced it was the Russians.

      If new evidence comes to light and you have already condemned the accused. Then it is hardly the smartest manoeuvre. I don’t think any of us would have wanted our leaders to have made the speeches they did. the fact that we are now making excuses for a bad decision, doesn’t change the fact that it was a bad decision.

      We are allowed to disagree on such matters as we all have our opinions on such things. Because someone thinks our party got something wrong,it does not make them a bedfellow of the unionists as some suggest.

      In fact we are criticising things that need questioned and that is democracy. The SNP are not infallible.

      This is my opinion and I am entitled to it.

    137. Breastplate says:

      I agree with you, that Nicola was damned if she did, damned if she didn’t and it would be inevitable that people would fall behind different opinions on the matter. I like there to be debate on these things but as you say it is important that we all agree about independence and the Yes Movement.

    138. X_Sticks says:

      Thepnr 12:54

      Spot on.

    139. schrodingers cat says:


      agreed, btw, i’m not sure how much influence cambridge analytica and social media adverts can have in scotland. yes is very strong online. (see the euref result in scotland) it is the traditional forms of msm which are our biggest problem.

      our biggest advantage is our footsoldiers and our ability to organise. I believe we wasted this advantage delivering leaflets, the unionists merely paid the postman to do this for them (1 leaflet for an entire constituency costs about £1500)

      we intend to raise the money to do the same and spend the entire indyref2 CANVASING.

      no amount of snpbad newspaper articles or bbc news reports can ever complete against face to face contact. It is also something the unionists cant do.

      this is our strength, we should use it

    140. heedtracker says:

      Big Jock says:
      17 April, 2018 at 3:03 pm
      I think a lot of people are missing my central argument.

      My argument is not to rush to judgement.

      But you do. So that’s ok then.

    141. sensibledave says:

      Breastplate 1:09 pm

      You wrote “Sitting on the fence not apportioning blame when there is no proof of anything is the right thing to do.”

      Tell that to Ms Sturgeon and Blackwood then!

      For once, be honest Breastplate. You believe that the SNP’s job is to simply have the opposite view to the UK government, no matter what the issue. That is fine, that is yours and their right.

      And it is the right of the rest of us to “Call” them out on it. If they choose to consistently demonstrate that the only issue that matters to them, at Westminster, is Scottish Independence, and everything they do and say is designed only to achieve that … then you need to expect the rest of us to ignore them wherever possible.

      You can then say, with all the faux outrage you can muster, how outrageous it is the these elected representatives views are not taken seriously. And so on …

      The astonishing thing to me is highlighted above and in other threads is to do with the criticisms of other parties. Just on the Syria thing, we have Labour MPs speaking with the Government and Tory MPs speaking for Corbyn’s approach. You see that as appalling. You much prefer the dystopian “tablets down the mountain”, robotic responses of SNP MPs not telling us what they, individually believe.

      Each to his/her own I suppose.

    142. jazzscot says:

      meanwhile twitter is broken……..

      I bet the MSM blames the pesky Russians

    143. jazzscot says:

      meanwhile twitter is broken…

      I bet the MSM blames the pesky Russians

    144. colin alexander says:

      Merkin Scot

      Merkin Scot asked (paraphrased): “does Royal Prerogative trump the UN as well?”

      Since the 2003 invasion of Iraq, which Kofi Annan, the then UN Secretary General said was “illegal”, has any of the then UK Govt been provisionally arrested under an Interpol Red Notice for the invasion of Iraq and harm caused? No.

      I think that answers your question.

    145. heedtracker says:

      And it is the right of the rest of us to “Call” them out on it. If they choose to consistently demonstrate that the only issue that matters to them, at Westminster, is Scottish Independence, and everything they do and say is designed only to achieve that … then you need to expect the rest of us to ignore them wherever possible.”

      Ah sensible dave, the sneaky shit toryboy’s tory. By all means ignore Scotland’s elected MP’s in Westminster sensibled.

      But sensible d, is it really too much ask that creeps like you don’t then smear our elected reps with your tory donestic and foreign shite too, please?

      Especially Scotland’s First Minister sensible d, who, no matter how hard assorted yoons and tory clowns like you try smear with your UK shite, actually had nothing to do with Vlad the Poisoner in Salisbury, or this latest pointless tory bombing campaign in the middle east.

      Thanks in advance you sneaky tory creep:D

    146. Robert Peffers says:

      @Cubby says: 17 April, 2018 at 1:38 pm:

      “Colin Alexander@12.11 says
      “Under the U.K. Constitution”
      I would like to read this constitution. Can you tell me where you can find it? Or has a squirrel ran off with it.”

      Well, Cubby, Colin won’t tell you where to find the Written Constitution of the UK but I can – and this is my second attempt to reply on this theme as the first one disappeared as I was typing it.

      First let me quote for you what, (pardon the pun), constitutes, “a written constitution”:-

      constitution – noun: constitution; plural noun: constitutions.

      a body of fundamental principles or established precedents according to which a state or other organization is acknowledged to be governed.

      synonyms: charter, social code, canon, body of law, system of laws/rules.

      Now there is such a, “Written Constitution”, but, “They”, don’t want you to know that but I’m sure you can figure out why they do not want you to know.

      Here you will find it in full as a translation from French. The original was written in French, which at that time, was the language used for legal documents in the Kingdom of Scotland.


      Apology if the original comment shows up as I had not pasted the link when the comment vanished.

    147. colin alexander says:

      The SNP Defence Spokesman has already said:

      “The suspected chemical weapons attacks in Syria must be condemned in the strongest terms, and action must be taken to ensure such attacks never happen again.”

      So, condemnation and action must be taken based on SUSPICION, according to the SNP.

      Is that the rule of law? Guilty before the any effective investigation has been completed.

    148. Big Jock says:

      Heedtracker- :”It’s my opinion” that’s not judgement. I am not judging either side of the argument as the evidence is not clear. However I am not agreeing that the SNP did the right thing as in my opinion it was too hasty. That’s criticism not judgement.

      Your defence is semantic and weak here. You suggest we should not criticise our leaders.

    149. TheBuchanLoony says:

      Mr Murray. I agree with Mr Peffers and Thepnr as to why Nicola and Ian Blackford are correct in their response. I believe that in your blogs on your site you said that you thought the Salisbury Scripal pantomime/poisoning should have been all finished and forgotten by the time the Syrian chemical charade began. I do not think that was the plan at all. I think that the Scripal affair and the Syrian bombing were both planned to happen when parliament were conveniently in recession. I believe that the Scripal affair was hastily brought forward to undermine the SNP’s credibility regarding the Scottish Government’s Brexit continuity bill at which time the first vote was being taken three days later. The UK government expected the SNP to take a similar stance to that of Corbyn but Nicola made a very astute political move and ‘on the information given to her by the Westminster government’ she dodged a (no doubt well prepared) barrage of BBC and MSM demonisation. Bringing it forward a number of weeks in such a short time is why the poisoning resulted in such an unbelievable farce.

    150. Ghillie says:

      Macart @ 10.03 am

      OT/ Maybe Jeremy Clarkson’s pitiful comments are a golden opportunity for an open letter 🙂

    151. Colin Alexander says:

      Robert Peffers

      Thank you, Robert. As I said, there is a UK constitution, of sorts.

      Quite right to mention the (Scottish Parliament’s) Act of Union 1707, which the British Library seems to have overlooked, while it does mention the European Union.

      The BRITISH Library also mentions the (English Parliament’s)Bill of Rights 1689 but, omits the (Scottish Parliament’s) Claim of Right 1689.

    152. heedtracker says:

      Your defence is semantic and weak here. You suggest we should not criticise our leaders.

      To some extent yes. But again, neither the Salisbury poisoning investigations are complete, who knows what they’re going to find in Syria after Teresa’s bombed the shit out of it last week etc.

      So you’re jumping the gun, and leaping on the SNP Out bandwagon.

      God only knows what Craig Murray hopes to achieve, too.

      Hysterical blogs monstering FM Sturgeon for what may or not be an error of statements, is only going to make yoon culture very very happy indeed.

      And again, Scotland, our elected reps, Holyrood, FM Sturgeon had absolutely NOTHING to do with Salisbury poisoning or the latest RAF bombing in the middle east.

    153. Bob Mack says:

      @Colin Alexander,

      You can be held in prison for months before your trial where you will be found innocent or guilty. That is the law.

    154. mike cassidy says:

      This was written a year ago after Trump’s first ‘missile response’ attack.

      “There is no clean or easy way to exit from the morass we created in the region. None of the insurgents in the region will willingly lay down their weapons until the U.S. occupation of the Middle East ends. The wars we started are complicated. There is a myriad of proxy wars being fought beneath the surface, including our war with Russia, Turkey’s war with the Kurds, and Saudi Arabia’s war with Iran. The civilians in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya and Yemen are the human fodder. This slaughter has already lasted nearly 16 years. It will not cease until the United States is exhausted and withdraws its forces from the region. And before that happens, many, many more innocents will die. So save your tears. We are morally no different from the jihadists or the Syrians we fight. They reflect back to us our own repugnant visage. If we wanted this to stop, we could make it happen. ”

    155. Thepnr says:

      All chemical weapons attacks must be condemned in the strongest terms, and action must be taken to ensure such attacks never happen again. Doesn’t matter if they were in Syria or elsewhere.

      The point of the original statement is to make clear that this reported chemical attack in Syria and the pretext for a joint missile attack on Syria by US/UK/FR is curently not proven to be an actual chemical attack since the OPCW have not yet conducted an investigation and reported back to the UN.

      Until then it remains as a “suspected” chemical attack and the SNP Defence Spokesman was wise to make that clear in his statement.

    156. sensibledave says:


      You wrote “But sensible d, is it really too much ask that creeps like you don’t then smear our elected reps with your tory donestic and foreign shite too, please?

      err, Heedy, I am only agreeing with Sturgeon and Blackwood

    157. Ghillie says:

      When MPs vote Yea or Nae we get a clearer picture of their feelings on the issue but when they abstain there should be an explanation available to the electorate clarifying their stance and justifying their receiving their salary.

      Otherwise, perhaps a significant docking of pay for unexplained missing of votes and for unexplained and unjustified abstentions would concentrate these errant MPs minds. Some of them might end up in the red!

      Abstaining during a vote is sometimes the correct answer, but not without an explanation and justification.

      Would Labour ever have the courage or decency to do that?

    158. Colin Alexander says:

      Correct me if I am wrong but, it is reported the French said they have “reliable intelligence” the Syrian Govt bombed Douma with nerve gas.

      Let’s no forget the French spooks were blowing up and killing Greenpeace activists not so long ago.

      Knowing that, I trust the French spooks’ word on matters as much as I trust the UK Govt’s spooks.

    159. Thepnr says:

      I think they will be voting in the next few minutes in the HOC on Corbys emergency debate on Syria.

    160. Colin Alexander says:


      How can you condemn and take action to ensure something does not happen again, when it is only suspected to have happened in the first place?

    161. heedtracker says:

      err, Heedy, I am only agreeing with Sturgeon and Blackwood

      Are you sensible? Its all just your wee smear campaign, the whole Salisbury poisoning, thbs latest Teresa bombing of Syria, all horrific tory catastofucks on a global stage and that’s why youre here, to plaster our elected reps and Scotland’s parliament, with your Strong and Stable UKOK shite.

      It all does seem to have at least some receptive er, SNP votes tbf sensibled.

      Is this there any union anywhere stitched together with so many lies and so much deceit, like this one with England sensibledave?

    162. schrodingers cat says:

      Big Jock says:
      I am not agreeing that the SNP did the right thing as in my opinion it was too hasty. That’s criticism not judgement.

      i think that is a fair criticism, regardless of what position nicola took, for whatever reason, delaying a while might have been more prudent.

      but as far as i am aware, the snp condemn assad but do not support bombing

    163. Stuart Anderson says:

      Thenpr 12.54

      Best evaluation yet of the situation for FM Sturgeon.

    164. I never ever considered Labour had any real principles to begin with, so I’m not surpised they abstained in last night’s vote.

      As for Theresa May, is this be the same Mrs May who Welched on taking thousands of unaccommpanied refugee children to the UK from the hell hole that is now Syria.

    165. Robert Peffers says:

      @colin alexander says: 17 April, 2018 at 2:34 pm:

      “RE: the UK Constitution.
      The UK does have one of sorts:

      What utter unionist pish, Colin – and you know it.

      Magna Carta is correctly titled, Magna Carta Libertatum.

      That is Medieval Latin for “the Great Charter of the Liberties”, and it was agreed to by King John of England at Runnymede, on 15 June 1215.

      Thus there was no such thing as a United Kingdom in 1215 and certainly not one that included Wales, Ireland and Scotland.

      However, The Kingdom of England did annex, (not unite), with Wales by, “The statute of Rhuddlan”, in 1284 and annexed all Ireland by the Crown of Ireland Act of 1542, then English law was forced upon the then three country Kingdom of England and thus retrospectively applied to both.

      As the Kingdom of England then, in 1706/7, signed a Treaty of Union with the equally sovereign Kingdom of Scotland. In that Treaty of Union it specifically agrees that both kingdom’s legal systems will remain sacrosanct in perpetuity then Magna Carta Libertatum cannot be retrospectively applied to Scotland.

      Neither can the English Parliament’s Act of Union be applied as the last sitting of the last parliament of the Kingdom of England was on the last day of April 1707 and no actual legally elected parliament of England has been convened since that sitting the only written constitution of the United Kingdom is the Treaty of Union of 1706/7 and you car read the translation of that constitution here:-

    166. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Firstly, with respect to your assertion of the action being “unquestionably illegal”, clearly, in reality, demonstrably and evidentially, the statement “unquestionably illegal” is not true because of the debate we are seeing and hearing on that very subject. Clearly you personally have come to the conclusion that the UK’s actions are “illegal”. It is equally clear that it is the contention of others that it wasn’t.”

      That line is a link. Maybe try clicking it.

    167. Macart says:


      TBH, if it were anyone serious, you’d probably be right. It’s only Jeremy Clarkson though, so simply having a dig and a laugh at his ignorance is peachy.

    168. schrodingers cat says:

      mike cassidy

      excellent article worth posting in full

      Chris Hedges. Here is a repost of his April 8, 2017, article, which appeared shortly after the first time President Trump fired missiles into Syria in reaction to reports of chemical warfare by the regime of President Bashar Assad.

      War opens a Pandora’s box of evils that once unleashed are beyond anyone’s control. The invasion of Afghanistan set out to defeat al-Qaida, and nearly 16 years later we are embroiled in a losing fight with the Taliban. We believed we could invade Iraq and create a Western-style democracy and weaken Iran’s power in the region. The fragmentation of Iraq among warring factions has left Iran the dominant Muslim nation in the Middle East and Iraq destroyed as a unified nation. We set out to topple President Bashar Assad in Syria but then began to bomb the Islamic insurgents trying to overthrow him. We spread the “war on terror” to Yemen, Libya and Syria in a desperate effort to crush regional resistance. Instead, we created new failed states and lawless enclaves where vacuums were filled by the jihadist forces we sought to defeat. We have wasted a staggering $4.79 trillion on death, destruction and folly as our nation is increasingly impoverished and climate change threatens us with extinction. The arms manufacturers, who have a vested interest in perpetuating these debacles, will work to make a few trillion more before this act of collective imperial suicide comes to a humiliating end.

      In war, when you attack one force you implicitly aid another. And the forces we assist by striking the Assad regime are the forces we ironically are determined to eradicate—Nusra Front, al-Qaida and other Islamic radical groups. These are the same Islamic forces we, along with Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey and Kuwait, largely created, armed and funded at the inception of the civil war in Syria. They are the forces that have responded to the chaos caused by our misguided military interventions in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan. They are the forces that execute Western captives, slaughter religious minorities, carry out terrorism in Europe and the United States and collect billions of dollars from smuggling refugees into Europe. They are our sometime enemies and our sometime allies.
      The jihadists’ savagery mirrors our own. The jihadists respond to our airstrikes and aerial drone attacks by using suicide vests and improvised explosive devices. They respond to our black sites and prisons such as Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo with basement cells that torture kidnapped captives. They respond to the ideology of Western secularism with an Islamic state. They respond to violence with violence.

      The Islamic militants in Syria, after Russia intervened against them in September 2015, were losing territory, financial revenue and support in the six-year war. And they were the ones who rejoiced this week when the United States fired 59 Tomahawk cruise missiles at Syria’s Shayrat airfield, reportedly the launching site for a chemical weapons attack that killed 86 people, including at least 30 children, on Tuesday in the rebel-held town of Khan Sheikhoun. The Syrian government says six people died in the U.S. missile attack.

      The selective moral outrage of the United States, among both Democrats and Republicans, over the alleged chemical attack—I know from two decades of covering war that the truth is very murky and easily manipulated in wartime—ignores America’s primary responsibility for the wholesale carnage that has left hundreds of thousands dead and millions as refugees, including 4 million from Iraq and 5 million from Syria. It ignores the 12,197 bombs we dropped on Syria last year. It ignores our role in creating the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) and our role in arming and funding these jihadists in Syria. We have made sure that the Syrians—400,000 of whom have died and half of whom have been forced from their homes during the war—have many options when it comes to dying.
      Syria had, and may still have, chemical weapons. It appeared to use them in 2013 in the Damascus suburb Ghouta, leaving anywhere from 281 to 1,729 dead. But the Syrians, in an international accord brokered by then-Secretary of State John Kerry with the Russian government, agreed to turn over their chemical stockpiles to the Russians following the attack. And one has to ask why Syria, which is finally winning the war, would use chemical agents now and risk U.S. retaliation. Syria says the deadly nerve agent sarin and possibly chlorine gas were released when a rebel depot holding the chemicals was hit in an airstrike.
      Why the moral outrage now among Americans? Why have we stood by as Syrians died daily from barrel bombs, bullets, famine, disease and drowning off the shores of Greece? Why have we been mute as schools, apartment blocks, mosques and hospitals have been bombed into rubble? Where is the outrage about the deaths of the thousands of other children, including those we killed recently in Mosul when a March 17 coalition airstrike took the lives of as many as 200 civilians? Why are we not enraged by the Trump administration’s flagrant violation of domestic law by carrying out an act of war without approval from Congress or the United Nations? Why do we lament these deaths yet bar Syrian war refugees from entering the United States? Is American foreign policy to be dictated by the fickle emotions of Donald Trump, whose perception of reality appears to be obtained exclusively from a television screen? The radical Islamists can always count on the West to intervene and resurrect them. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a Jordanian radical, founded Jama’at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad in Iraq with about 100 former fighters from al-Qaidi in Afghanistan. His goal was a sectarian conflict with the Shiites. A unified Shiite and Sunni state in Iraq was an anathema to the Sunni jihadists. Zarqawi’s group became al-Qaida in Iraq in 2004. It declared its loyalty to Osama bin Laden, who had initially opposed Zarqawi’s call for a war with Shiites. Zarqawi was killed in 2006.
      By 2010 al-Qaida in Iraq was a spent force. Then came the civil war in Syria. The United States, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey pumped weapons, money and resources to various rebel factions in Syria to overthrow the Syrian regime. Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, who took over the leadership of Zarqawi’s organization, changed the name of the group to the Islamic State of Iraq. He soon decamped to Syria. His group, like all jihadist organizations in Syria, was showered with weapons and resources. Baghdadi devoted his energy to attacking other jihadist and rebel groups. He gradually took control of an area the size of Texas in Syria and Iraq. Al-Nusra, the al-Qaida-affiliated group in Syria, merged with the Islamic State of Iraq. The new group became the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, or ISIS. It attracted an estimated 20,000 foreign fighters—some 4,000 of whom held European passports. The group was estimated by The Wall Street Journal to earn $2 million a day in oil exports alone. As a trafficker of humans, it has made billions from the desperate refugees attempting to flee to Europe. It has executed religious minority members or forced them out of its territory. The newly formed self-described caliphate has also terrorized the Sunnis in the name of religious purity, as Max Blumenthal and Ben Norton point out in the AlterNet article “Is Trump Rescuing Al-Qaeda’s ‘Heartland’ in Syria?“
      The rise of Islamic State has instilled pride and self-empowerment for many Sunnis, humiliated by the U.S. occupation. It has exposed the weak and corrupt ruling elites who have sold themselves to Washington. It is proof that the Western military forces are not invincible. These groups will suffer reverses, but they will not go away.
      There is no clean or easy way to exit from the morass we created in the region. None of the insurgents in the region will willingly lay down their weapons until the U.S. occupation of the Middle East ends. The wars we started are complicated. There is a myriad of proxy wars being fought beneath the surface, including our war with Russia, Turkey’s war with the Kurds, and Saudi Arabia’s war with Iran. The civilians in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya and Yemen are the human fodder. This slaughter has already lasted nearly 16 years. It will not cease until the United States is exhausted and withdraws its forces from the region. And before that happens, many, many more innocents will die. So save your tears. We are morally no different from the jihadists or the Syrians we fight. They reflect back to us our own repugnant visage. If we wanted this to stop, we could make it happen.
      Chris Hedges

    169. Calum McKay says:

      Liz g says: 17 April, 2018 at 1:15 pm

      “I know its all shit
      You know its all shit
      She probably knows its all shit.
      But unless and until there is definitively proof,she would be whistling in the wind to argue.”


      NS has to go along with what she has been told, “for now”. Not to do so risks not only all out attacks from tories and labour, but the press and bbc.

      NS does not want to fall into the Corbyn trap of being right, but being completely unelectable. Is it sensible to risk support and damaging the cause over this until the facts come to light? No!

      Russia was not a problem until chickens came home to roost for Trump and his aides started to resign or get fired, some have gone onto face the courts. Russia became a problem.

      The view on Russia changed, the press were full of anti-Putin stories in the lead up to Salisbury and Syria.

      If the average person in the street believes they are being lied to, despite the portrayal in the press and bbc, what does it say about those reporting the news?

      Top journalists are sharp people, they spot inconsistencies in a second, its about time they discovered some back bone and reported the truth!

    170. Big Jock says:

      This is where I get confused.

      On the one hand we all agree that the MSM are corrupt and anti SNP. In fact if Nicola was Mother Theresa they would claim she signed a pact with Lucifer. Then we have people saying that Nicola should not say anything controversial, for fear of a media backlash. so in other words we have become the party of not rocking the boat. When in actual fact we should be the party of rebellion.

      Our mission is to metaphorically break the British state. We are not going to achieve this by being afraid to state what we really think on subjects like Syria bombing. Uncomfortable it might be, but we have to accept we never had the media on our side and never will. What we are in danger of is losing our honesty and moral compass, in order to avoid media headlines.

      If you stick with the establishment too long you become invisible. Time for some boat rocking.

    171. Breeks says:

      From a quick scan of Rev’s Twitter Timeline, what Nicola and Ian Blackford knew, and when they knew it, might be an issue that’s just kicking off…

      Stewart McDonald raising questions about some “asymmetry” about who was told what in selected briefings. Those pro war told one story, those anti war told a different story.

    172. Ken500 says:

      A renegade might have used illegal gas to discredit the regime. To go and bomb even more people is just ignorance. Anyone who advocates this behaviour should be first in the line. How bombing even more people can be considered justified is just ridiculous. Appalling behaviour.

      The French should take a look at their own policy.They have been meddling in the Middle East for years. Macron has his own problems. Trying to motivate the French economy. Deregulating? France and Britain carved up the Middle East and took all their resources. Algeria.

      Churchill was taking all Iran’s Oil in the 50’s. M15/CIA caused upheaval and chaos. The PM was put in jail in false charges. The despised Shah reinstated. Again the people’s wishes, Westminster denied the Atabs the vote. 1WW. Lawrence of Arabia. Balfour Agreement 1917.

      The Suez crisis. The Seven day war. Nasser tried to take control over the Suez Canal. Antony Eden? McMillan dumped nuclear in Scotland 1960’s. He wanted them based at Fort William. The US did not approve. Kennedy wanted them at the Holy Loch. Kennedy assassinated 1963? Nuclear cleared from Greenham Common in 1992. After protests. 30mins from London. Not wanted there. Fallon just increased nuclear spending in Scotland.

      Sarkozy is facing criminal charges for illegal election funding. Sarkozy was getting £Millions from Gaddafi. Then killed him to cover up. Blair, Cameron et al. All the rest of the Western Gov are being bribed by the Saudis. May was using UK Gov contracts to skim off from the Saudis. Getting cuts from fees, expenses and contacts for her and the Hedge funder cronies. Graft and corruption. Sanction and starving people.

      The most absolute despot monarchy in the world. Now trying to change or go bankrupt. Their policies would not be tolerated in the other countries but these countries regimes support the Saudis for benefits. Total hypocrites. Same apartheid Israel. Israel would not exist without US money, support and arms. A US military base.

    173. Breeks says:

      Correction… those pro war told things they shouldn’t have been told without security clearance….

    174. Sinky says:

      BBC Radi Shortbread going big on SNP and Cambridge Analytics but don’t remember same extent of coverage regarding Tory and Labour involvement and complete silence on all the other right wing organisations funding etc.

    175. heedtracker says:

      If you stick with the establishment too long you become invisible. Time for some boat rocking”

      Whole point is, Salisbury poisoning and the latest RAF bombings of Syria are nothing to do with Holyrood, SNP etc.

      Yet they are being used to monster the above.

      No one is its bad to attack FM Sturgeon if you think she’s said the wrong things.

      But again, she’s got nothing to do with any of these tory UK gov rolling catastrophes. So you’re targeting the wrong government.

      Why else do you think a high tory and ultra unionist like sensibledave, is on here today saying he stands BetterTogeteer with FM Sturgeon?

    176. Dr Jim says:

      As the grievance hunters argue over what the First minister of Scotland who has no control over the things the grievance hunters are arguing about, should be doing, something she actually could do she did

      She just saved BiFab!

      Where were the Labour or Tory parties, well maybe waiting outside the gates to claim some credit for when BBC turns up

      How much more can the SNP do to prove to the doubters that Scotland is best served by them, and when I say served that’s exactly what I mean as opposed to the other parties who think Scotland exists to serve them

      He said she said she should’ve said, if only we had all the information eh like some folk who squeal the loudest about what should have happened about something they have no information about then proceed to present heresay as evidence demanding to be listened to
      Well I was under 15s swimming champion of Scotland in 1964 so it naturally follows I know everything there is to know about water

      Lots of it’s Pish with fish in it that I’ve never seen

    177. Robert Peffers says:

      @Colin Alexander says: 17 April, 2018 at 3:41 pm:

      “Quite right to mention the (Scottish Parliament’s) Act of Union 1707, which the British Library seems to have overlooked, while it does mention the European Union.”

      Err! No, Colin, I did NOT mention the Scottish Parliament’s, nor the English Parliament’s, respective Acts of Union as these were both Acts of the respective, still independent, parliaments of the only two partner Kingdoms that subsequently formed the bipartite United Kingdom.

      In both instances those parliaments then ended. That of England was put in permanent recession and that of Scotland was prorogued.

      BTW the so called, “Anglo-Irish”, Treaty of Union of 1800 and 1801 – was/is actually two documents. These were not either treaties nor were they acts of union.

      They were factually titled, “The Articles of Agreement for a Treaty Between Great Britain and Ireland”. They were an agreement between the government of, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland” and representatives of, “The Irish Republic”, that concluded the Irish War of Independence.

      Get that? The agreement was between Westminster and the Republic but gets propaganda propagated as a Treaty of Union. It cannot be so as The Republic and the UK are NOT united.

      What I’m quoting as the, “Constitution”, of the United Kingdom was the actualTREATY of Union that, “constituted”, the United Kingdom and was the terms that both Kingdoms signed up to.

      To get that in perspective the Treaty was a signed agreement but the acts then had to be passed by the respective parliaments. Which were then wound up to form a new union parliament. Thus those acts were, in both cases, the last acts of the old independent kingdoms parliaments.

      On 1st May 1707 what sat was the very first United Kingdom parliament and NOT, as Westminster now claims, the old Parliament of the Kingdom of England renamed as the United Kingdom.

    178. Capella says:

      @ Shrodingers Cat – thx for posting the Chris Hedges article. He is another excellent war correspondent who has put in his time at the front and doesn’t shrink from telling the truth. He has a show on RT which is worth watching.

      Vanessa Beeley is another brave journaist. She has been living in Syria for some time and reports first hand. She is interviewed by Ron Paul and completely dismisses the false claims of the US, UK and France which they use as an excuse for illegal war.

      She also says that the OPCW are free to go to Douma but they themselves have waited for UN cover for the trip. It is the US and UK reps at the UN who are blocking this then they falsly claim that Syria and Russia are preventing the OPCW from visiting Douma.

      It’s the industrial scale of lying that is astonishing. As well as the cruelty of bombing of course.
      25 mins:

      BTW I wish I was as confident as you that the belligerents will now calm down. There is a nuclear powered US aircraft carrier and flotilla of warships arriving off the coast of Syria tomorrow. It will only take another false flag gas incident to provide an excuse for more bombing. I don’t think they can tolerate the thought that they have lost the war in Syria and it’s Vladimir Putin’s fault.

    179. yesindyref2 says:

      @Craig Murray / Rev
      I was incredibly impressed with Sturgeon for her conditional backing over Syria, even though I’d guess it went against ever fibre in her being. It should be noted that Germany also backed the action, as did many other EU states, albeit reluctantly, check it out. Rather than put it together in paragraphs, here’s a numbered list.

      1. Independence. It’s all about the Independence.

      2. Sturgeon is the FM of Scotland, a wannabee Independent State that would have to make hard decision on foreign policy and make, at times, uneasy alliances (like NATO).

      3. The main game in town is Independence, everything else is a distraction, but a distraction that could harm the cause of Indy and needs to be removed.

      4. The only people critical of her are Indy supporters and I don’t doubt they will vote YES anyway.

      5. It will have made NO voters think, and perhaps raised her stock with them, as in point 2 above. And of course, point 1.

      6. As FM and a member of the Privy Council, she has to respect the Intelligence and Security councils in a similar way to May, the PM, and read any report with an open mind. Independent Scotland will also have an Intelligence and Security service, they talk to each other, and the FM / PM of Indy Scotland will have to consider and act on Intelligence. We also don’t know what intelligence her and Blackford actually saw, it might have been “conclusive”.

      7. The Intelligence services answer to the UK state, and unless compromised would work in the interests of the UK state and under their overall direction. It is therefore not the intelligence services who would “lie”, unless instructed to do so.

      8. If it turns out the intelligence is flawed or falsified, it is a further boost for an Indy Scotland, to get away from such deviousness, and that is something that might sway some NO voters.

      9. It clears the decks for action, rather than engaging in what would be a futile and unpopular move against the UK Government which, in times of “crisis”, the British people as a whole, including Scots, get behind. Including Labour as almost in this article.

      10. Independence. It’s all about the Independence.

      That’s my cynical take on it, Independence is the game in town, not any other personal issue distraction.

    180. Phydaux says:

      Wonderfully scathing article, Stuart, which speaks to the visceral disgust I feel for the warmongers in Westminster,

      At least with the Tories, what you see is what you get…” identikit fannybags “ and all,They do exactly what it says on the tin…they pollute the atmosphere wherever they go and are devoid of any moral or ethical standards…they literally have no conscience.

      Labour’s record on abstaining says it all.Until and unless Labour get off the fence, they should be neither trusted nor respected by all people of conscience amidst the disgusting stench of war.

      As events unfold, our time to choose is lying in wait.Who knows, it may surprise us yet but when it comes, Independence or bust.

    181. Confused says:

      Politics is like chess – you want to mate the other king, but he wants to do it to you too – you play the board as it is. Sometimes in chess there is a thing called a zugswang – a forced move which does not improve your position. The SNP played it pretty smart in this, doing the minimum, with little enthusiasm.

      The biggest danger to the UK is the SNP being seen widely as being – reasonable, decent, centrists – and highly competent in the day to day running of the country. Which they are – none of the mud thrown at them seems to stick. The UK would love to paint the SNP as “extremists” and hence also, “treasonous” as this opens the door to more robust measures.

      Syria is just “This Weeks Bullshit” (- after North Korea, the Rohingya, Labour antisemitism, Israeli snipers playing whack a mole, knife murders, paedo gangs, NHS in crisis, trumps shenanigans, brexit etc) – next week there will be more bullshit, but the only thing I care about is – are we nearer to independence or further away?

      – the “bullshit” of two weeks ago, Catalonia comes to mind – what is the overwhelming lesson to be taken from all that? My answer –
      – DO NOT CATASTROPHICALLY OVERPLAY your hand with NO-ONE to back you up

      (- dream sequence, a special edition of Bullseye is taking place in a parallel dimension)

      The Catalan family need the bullseye to win the grand prize
      – Carlos on the oche, Clara squeezing her hands in anticipation

      – but OH !! – only hit the 25, the inner ring

      Jim Bowen puts his arm around Puidgemont

      (fades out)

      I like to think, maybe, Nicola is better at politics than I am and maybe even knows a LOT more than I do – OTOH maybe I just want to be an autistic narcissist and shout –

      – and while you are doing all that, let your opponents put their words in your mouth …

      As for Brexit, the overarching every-week bullshit – historically speaking, it is usually MUCH to your advantage if when you are trying to leave the EMPIRE, it is occupied with other things … this could all be very good for us, if played properly. There will be ample opportunity for bold manoeuvres and risk taking, believe it. At some point the SNP must simply regard all MSM interactions as being hostile cross examination and treat them with the same ruthless disdain of the standup for the heckler. And people on this forum need to keep punching outwards, not inwards.

    182. Bob Mack says:

      Prior to invading Poland .Hitler secretly sent a company of German soldiers across the Polish border dressed in Polish army uniforms, and ordered them too open fire on the German border guards, thus beginning hostilities.

      It is amazing what lengths governments go to in order to seem justified

      Do I believe the gas attack was carried out by Syria? Not without proof.

      Just as a matter of note,do you realise that there have been several major accidents in America involving train crashes whilst transporting Chlorine gas which is used in various industrial processes. It is very common, and you can actually make it with two simple ingredients. It does not take a high tech lab to make.

    183. Smallaxe says:

      Breeks says:
      17 April, 2018 at 4:26 pm
      “Stewart McDonald raising questions about some “asymmetry” about who was told what in selected briefings. Those pro war told one story, those anti war told a different story”
      “Correction… those pro war told things they shouldn’t have been told without security clearance….”

      How Philip May’s Company Benefits From the Syria Strikes: Lockheed Martin, the JASSM, and the Capital Group;

    184. Thepnr says:

      @Calum McKay

      As far as Independence goes NS is surely our greatest asset, if anyone can suggest another I’d love to hear of them. That’s why the MSM smear her at every opertunity just as they did with Alex Salmond.

      We can al remember the cry of “eh canne stand that Salmon” from ordinary people brainwashed into believing he himself was the devil because of the smearing he took.

      The headlines today are never about the “Scottish Government’s Continuity Bill” but instead “Sturgeons Continuity Bill” or Sturgeons Brexit Bill”; “Sturgeons Chinese Deals”; “Sturgeon Bans The Union Flag”.

      All absolute rubbish of course but part of the process of demonising a leader.

      NS is the main target of those that oppose Independence and she has my support at least at having to walk through that minefield that is running a government as well as dealing daily with a media onslaught usually reserved for our enemies during wartime.

      I very much doubt I could deal with anywhere near the amount of tripe she have to put up with while remaining calm, composed and dignified. They have to though as to do otherwise would turn people off and the coverage given could turn even more off.

      Alex Salmond is more likely to be controversial now as he can be since leaving parliament, why do you think his wee tour was called “Alex Salmond Unleashed” LOL. I’m sure NS could boot the smug grin of some arses in a TV studio without hesitation if she chose to but she is too shrewd for that.

      Her job is to do the best she can running the Scottish government with the reducing resources made available to them from Westminster and at the same time fight of an attempt by Westminster to make a power grab on already devolved issues. Fur us this is currently the most important issue the Continuity Bill and the Westminster governments decision to take us to the Supreme Court.

      This is a fight we could win no matter the result, don’t expect to hear too much about it on Reporting Scotland though. Let the FM get on with the day job, she doesn’t need us on her back as well as everything else.

      On top of all that she has to try and increase support for Independence. I’m surprised she can sleep at night with the tasks she faces. We should cut her a bit of slack since as far as I’m concerned she is doing brilliantly given the cards she has been dealt.

    185. Socrates MacSporran says:

      yesindyref2 @ 4.55pm

      Stop reading my mind – you said exactly what I was thinking. Excellent post.

    186. schrodingers cat says:

      tx capella
      it was mike cassidy who posted the link to this article, i just thought it was so good it was worth, posting in full.

      the warship steaming into the area is willy waving and trumps short attention span will ensure this will die down

      however, as the rebel enclaves shrink, the us/turk/russian forces will draw closer, the risk of incidents between the big players will increase.
      nb, no one will start ww3 for a few kurds or syrians etc. such is the hypocrisy of our time

    187. Capella says:

      Two items from Stu’s twitter:
      Labour are going to vote against their own motion today, on War Powers Act.

      Stewart McDonald, SNP MP is raising the issue of the government selectively giving intelligence info to MPs in order to manipulate them.

    188. Breeks says:

      My last word for some time on the SNP “do something / be patient” argument.

      No surprises, I’m in the “do something” camp. But a further point worth making is that at the moment, the gulf between doing nothing and doing something isn’t very wide. The situation is easily retrieved. I mean that in the sense that Yessers are a constructive bunch, and it wouldn’t take doing very much, but it would take something, just to settle the nerves and steady the horses.

      But the more time which runs out, and heaven forbid we cross the threshold of where Brexit becomes unavoidable, then the wider that gulf is going to grow, and sooner or later it will take more than one leap to cross it, and before very long even a bridge won’t span it.

      There is a visceral expectation that the SNP will fight to prevent Brexit happening, but if they don’t, if that fight is forfeited and/or time runs out on pursuing the option, then the consequences could be very uncomfortable for the SNP and damaging for everybody’s chances of Indy.

      Just give us a sign that the SNP is committed to staying in the EU and is not a Pro-Brexit Party, but for God’s sake be explicit and don’t cloud the issue with EFTA or Access to the Single Market platitudes. Those are Soft Brexit Options without a mandate, not stop Brexit options with a mandate.

    189. sensibledave says:

      Ken 500

      You wrote “To go and bomb even more people is just ignorance”

      FFs Ken we, and our Allies, bombed chemical storage facilities! To my knowledge, there has not been a report of a single casualty.

      Now, you either believe Syrian forces used chemical weapons or you don’t. You may believe that the depots bombed were chemical storage facilities or you don’t. That is up you.

      Ms Sturgeon, together Ms May, Trump and Macron are obviously convinced that the Syrians did use chemical weapons (or maybe all 4 of them are just lying warmongers).

      So, given that these democratic leaders believe that the Syrians did use chemical weapons, they obviously then had a choice to make, Do something – or nothing.

      I am comfortable with the concept of a pre-warned (to the Russians) strike to take out facilities such as those targeted by the ALlies. We don’t know whether Ms Sturgeon supported the action. She wont say. All she will talk about is about the Parliamentary process at Westminster – which she has nothing to do with because she is not an elected member.

      Obviously you are not. But what is your strategy to deal with the situation? Your strategy is do nothing!!!! It doesn’t matter what International Charters a country breaks in killing its own people. Do nothing. Or, even more cold and cynically, pretend you support an alternative strategy that you damn well know can never be implemented … i.e get a UN resolution on the subject.

      So we come back to your real, effective strategy being do jack s**t. It doesn’t matter what a country does to its populace, do nothing.

      You, by your inaction, effectively condone the gassing of civilians in contravention of all the Charters.

      The Allied action was designed to stop the Syrians using chemical weapons. We will have to wait and see whether that works. What we do know is that your proposed inaction would do nothing to deter the Syrians from carrying on gassing their citizens.

      Most chillingly of all – you attempt to claim the moral high ground in this.

    190. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Just to be entirely clear

      A vote in the UK parliament in favour of attacking Syria does not legitimise it.
      Does not!!!!!!
      It is still an illegal attack on a sovereign state which is not legitimate or legal except in very special circumstance and only with a UN resolution in support of any controlled action.

      Of course maybe UN rules are only for other people

    191. schrodingers cat says:


      good post

      there is no shortage of the terminally outraged, willing to explode at a moments notice

      we need to keep our eyes on the ball

    192. schrodingers cat says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Of course maybe UN rules are only for other people…………


    193. Brian McHugh says:

      YesIndyRef2… Seconded.

    194. ScottieDog says:

      And their compliance probably wasn’t expected from the tories.
      Choose your battles!

    195. X_Sticks says:

      @ Big Jock at 4:22 pm

      You don’t rush at a man with a sub-machine when you’re armed with a stick.

      You hide the stick behind your back and wait until the man with the machine gun is distracted *then* you hit him over the head with your stick.

    196. Brian McHugh says:

      …and that goes for Thepnr’s post too.

    197. schrodingers cat says:

      what is your strategy to deal with the situation? Your strategy is do nothing!!!!

      yes, the civil war will only end when one side wins. assad may be a murdering toerag, but better he wins than isis or al nusra.

      but i wouldnt do nothing, i would round up all those calling for military action and ship them off to the region so they can put their money where their mouths are.

      my experience, those that shout the loudest are usually the 1st to run.
      typical tories, dead gallus until they run out of other peoples children to sacrifice

    198. geeo says:

      Big Jock stated this nonsense..

      “Our mission is to metaphorically break the British state”

      That might be YOUR mission, but it ain’t mine.

      I want something much simpler, Scottish independence.

      I do not want to “break the state”, or any other ambiguous battle cry. I mean, what does “break the British state” even mean ? After all, Britain is not a country nor a state, so how can it be ‘broken’ if it does not exist ?

      Scottish Independence simply means ending the Union of EQUAL partners with England.

      Nothing needs to “break” to achieve that, all it needs is an X in a wee box when given the chance to do so.

      I will leave the revolt to the revolting.

    199. Thepnr says:


      Good analogy 🙂

      This is a good thread today with lots of views being aired, all I really care about is that we never forgot we are all on the same side seeking the same goal.

      Differing opinions and disagrements are unavoidable but if the end goal is the same then the discussion on how to get there will have been worthwhile.

      I’m quite cheered by the positivity in many of the posts compared with recent days where there has been a dearth of much worth reading. Hopefully I’ve not spoken too soon haha.

    200. heedtracker says:

      Stop trolling sensible dave.

      RAF with the US air force has been bombing Syria for several years now. But they’ve bombing FOR the Assad regime, not the rebels.

      This time Strong and Stable and BJ decided to bomb the Assad regime sensibled.

      Its not even worth the effort to even ask why, really.

      Its all clearly diverts from this appalling Brexit catastrophe, NI border horror show, maybe they can even overturn Brexit completely if they can trigger war with Russia.

      Who the fcuk knows! Its the tory freak show and their Beeb gimp network that’s hard at work, just like you sensible d, bullshitting the life out of us.

      Ours is not to reason why, ours is to vote toryboy, by order, of their ever more repellent beeb gimps.

    201. schrodingers cat says:

      if someone has a machine gun and you have a stick…….run away

      i may not be very brave…..but you would be amazed how smart i am 🙂

    202. Iain mhor says:

      I have much to say today (groans)
      “Which Party delivered Scotland a referendum on Independence in 2014?”
      You may confer.

      The History of the “Home Rule” movement for Scotland as you all well know (or should) has always embedded elements from the primary ‘Unionist’ parties and arguably was, for much of its life, a movement of Devolution. Devolution & Home Rule being perceived (at the time) as more acceptable to Scots and giving a greater chance of achieving some form of autonomy and form of parliament than a full blown Independence party. In that it was eventually successful is not in any doubt. It finally led to a a ‘Scottish Assembly’ and subsequently a Scottish Parliament with a Scottish ‘Independence party (temporararily) in a majority.

      What is interesting and generates heated discussion, is whether the ‘Home Rule’ movement is to be seen as a vehicle for ‘Unionists’ to govern their assets within the UK and whether it in fact set back a more radical SNP independence movement. There is I think little argument that both raised Scotland politically, to view a degree of autonomy, if not full independence, as acceptable, if not desirable. It achieved this across the political spectrum at the time when perhaps a sole vehicle like the SNP in isolation would not, for the SNP and ‘independence’ would have required abandoning traditional party allegiances.

      The current SNP party is the subsequent inheritor of the multi-party “Home Rule” movement for Scotland. It amalgamated those elements much the same way John MacCormick did and ironically so, as he distanced himself from their initial ‘radical’ doctrines. It is thus composed of all elements and “Home Rule” views, from full independence, devolution, federalism and yes, elements who see devolution as their focus over independence.
      The SNP and its support did not overnight become ‘rabid secessionist independanistas’ this has been a long amalgamation. So long that the SNP is barely the radical party of independence it is perhaps thought to be and is more an embodiement (ironically) of MacCormick’s vision; because it is still bridging that political gap, both within elements of the party and across the polity of parliament and ultimately the Scottish electorate and so is ‘barely’ a radical party of Independence. I of course mean this in the context of abjuring devolution entirely in favour of full independence and breaking from any internal UK politics. This is perhaps the mistake many people make; The SNP pursues Independence via devolution and arguably always has (and its predecessors before it) it is not (yet) a “Scottish Independence Rebellion”
      The SNP nominally pursued the continuing strategy of devolution of powers but most importantly devolution of ideals. It did not stand on a manifesto of “Independence” in the last decade, but it did strengthen the party, did strengthen Holyrood and did strengthen the idea of Independence. The SNP did subsequently deliver an Independence referendum to the Scottish people – That point was arguably the culmination of the ‘Devolved Home Rule’ movement.
      The SNP as a party, has since had to decide whether to continue the long devolution game or whether to abandon the policy and strike out to be a full blown independence party and break from, or at least directly oppose, UK politics and ‘rebel’ against its embodiment in Westminster.

      There is naturally, given the many elements and viewpoints within the independence movement, a division. That division is more straightforward than it appears. It is simply between those for whom “Devolution” and “Home Rule” was the objective and those whose objective was Independence. Those who saw devolution as their nadir are however staring down the barrel of a gun and must know this. To my mind, this must lead to a further division between ‘Devolutionists’ who see independence as the only way to ultimately secure ‘Home Rule’ and those ‘Devolutionists’ who are more comfortable with a sinecure of devolution and modicum of ‘home rule’ however base.
      That seems to me to be a two thirds split for independence. The question remains, is the ‘base devolution’ element in a minority, that remains to be seen. Certainly the ultimate ‘Independence’ factions are becoming far more vocal and critical. Is this a bad thing? With so many enemies of Scotland arraigned against her are dissenting and vociferous attacks on the SNP’s direction a help or hindrance?

      As for what the SNP’s position is on foreign policy that hardly appears remotely relevant in the immediate context of Independence and the struggle against forces seeking to undermine Scotland. It perhaps engages those whose ideals are more vested in global politics than any immediate, mere domestic issue like Independence. I dare say the First Minister, the SNP or its members may espouse any opinion they wish, it may seem of little merit in the context of the struggle for independence. To be silent or speak on global politics is to be condemned either way. Though one may argue to act stately is to be stately. It may certainly galvanise some voters; perhaps they will not vote for independence or the SNP because they did/did not speak on global issues, did/did not reflect their beliefs. It’s a vicarious position and again reveals priorities. The SNP’s views on global politics is perhaps also taken by erstwhile independence supporters as a weathervane, some ephemeral touchstone to assay their mettle (sorry) for grasping independence, the capacity to act and become stately or succumb to a craven capitulation of eternally diminishing devolution. The fact that there are howls of anguish about the SNP’s position on such matters, by everyone, at the very least suggests those who are most vocal have accepted that Scotland has a valid political voice.

      I will leave criticism of the SNP to the conscience of everyone striving for independence. There is a difference between criticism and undermining attacks on the party as a whole and it is important to analyse and understand the difference. Remember always that this movement has been a long time in the making and the spearhead honed only in the last ten years. Is the point sharp enough to drive home and are there thews strong enough to do so? Scotland has a long history of sudden reaction after seeming decades of simmering inaction. Most revolutions follow the same pattern and their trigger is debated by historians. If you believe Scotland’s rebellious reaction was 2014 – so be it.
      I choose not to, I believe it is yet to come.

    203. Bill McLean says:

      Confused – love your last sentence and hope folk take note – “And people on this forum need to keep punching outwards, not inwards”. Sums up my feelings precisely! Sometimes we love the argument too much and forget the big picture! Independence will not be won by division.

    204. Robert Peffers says:

      @Big Jock says: 17 April, 2018 at 4:22 pm:

      ” … Then we have people saying that Nicola should not say anything controversial, for fear of a media backlash.”

      Err! No we don’t, Big Jock. We say Nicola must box clever and be very careful not be drawn into a knock-out punch by being over eager to attack.

      ” … in other words we have become the party of not rocking the boat. When in actual fact we should be the party of rebellion.”

      Sheesh! Big Jock, How can the party whose raison d’être is Scottish independence ever be anything other than in rebellion against the union?

      “Our mission is to metaphorically break the British state.”

      Nope! Our mission is to end the union of the only two kingdoms in the United Kingdom. There are eight British nations and four British states, These nations are Scotland, England, Northern Ireland, Wales, The Republic of Ireland, The Bailiwicks of Jersey & Guernsey and the Isle of Man.

      The political states are The United Kingdom, The Republic of Ireland, Jersey, Guernsey and Man.

      “We are not going to achieve this by being afraid to state what we really think on subjects like Syria bombing.”

      But Jock, We, (and including Nicola Sturgeon), have already said what we think about the Syria bombing. What Nicola did was to very cleverly say, before further comment, “On the information given by the United Kingdom Government”, then condemning the use of chemical weapons.

      So, if it was an attack by the people being bombed by the USA, UK and France then there can be no come back by the MSM.

      On the other hand if the people being bombed turn out to be innocent then Nicola can say, They lied to me and I condemn them as liars.

      Big Jock, you are going to have to explain how we are supposed to be, ” … in danger of losing our honesty and moral compass”?

      Lets just be clear, there is to date no clear evidence that a chemical gas attack has actually taken place and the SNP#s line has been, “On the information we were given by UK government ministers then we agree with the action taken by the UK government”.

      So if a gas attack has happened, and if it is proven that those being bombed were the guilty ones if it has, then the SNP are in the right and cannot be criticised. If, however, there was no gas attack or it turns out those being bombed did not do it, then the SNP can, correctly, say, “The UK Government lied to us”, and again there is no come-backs.

      What, though, if Nicola waded into the Westminster Government and then the Westminster Government were correct?

      We would never hear the end of it.

      This stuff isn’t like betting on the 3:30 at Kempton Park you just cannot play hunches or bet on long-shots.

    205. The truth is we have been posting on here for years about everything but we are still ruled by England I honestly believe the last Ref., was rigged mean the 3stooges flew up the week before and that was to try to justify the,result we all know about Willie Macrae Hilda Murrell and David Kelly and Robin Cooke so it is not beyond their remit and I believe the same thing will happen if we ever get ref.,2 we will have to declare UDi and take it from there as long as you play by their rules you will never ever gain independence

    206. Ken500 says:

      Nonsense did not do the disservice of quoting incoherently for the next sleekit attack. It is not appreciated . Thanks.

    207. Ken500 says:

      @ 5.57 pm

      To avoid confusion. Not directed at Blair

    208. yesindyref2 says:

      @Socrates / Brian / ScottieDog
      Here’s an alternate reality, close to our own, but sadly not close enough.

      After a YES vote on September 18th 2014, and with Scotland having the whip hand on two issues – Faslane / Coulport, and allowing the rUK to call itself the UK subject to condition, negotations proceeded rapidly and equitably to Independence on March 24th 2016, a new public holiday. The SNP were duly returned as the first Government with Salmond as the FM, a title it was decided to keep to indicate the People were Sovereign and nobody was more equal than anyone else.

      Transitional arrangements were agreed, and though a halfway measure between a formal and informal currency union was agreed and put in place, sense had prevailed in currency policy, and ScottieDog had been appointed head of the SCB – Scottish Central Bank, with a remit of monetary policy for the new / old currency – the Scots Pound which was set up in parallel as the local currency, progressively being traded outside the borders with a view of becoming the sovereign currency in an easy period of time. With a huge influx of tourists, embassies, conferences and new business Scotland had boomed even before Indy Day, contrary to the protestations of the gloom and doommongers. ScottieDog rapidly made the word “deficit” totally meaningless to non neo-liberal Scotland.

      Yesindyref2 meanwhile had been appointed as Honorary Admiral, with a role in SUSI – the Scottish United Services Institute charged with an advisory role to the armed services. The photo of him with a huge beamer on his face as they carefully allowed him to shout the command “Cast off and take her out”, for the commissioning of the SNV Stuart Campbell, the new 20,000 tonne large deck amphibian for dual defence and humanitarian purposes had made his wife and kids p*ss themselves with laughter. Awww.

      After a year steering Indy Scotland steadily on its way, Salmond stood down and took on the role of Extraordinary World Ambassador, with his senior consultant Craig Murray. Ho, what a laugh the two had together! Sturgeon took up the reins both as Leader and First Minister in October 2017.

      In 2018 some dude was apparently poisoned, and chemicals apparently used in Syria. Sturgeon got the intelligence report from the SISS (Scottish Intelligence and Security Service), with SISS having received top security ratings worldwide in a surprisingly short period of time (not surprising to Scots all the same), who had reports from all major Intelligence services, including MI5, MI6 and GCHQ. Sturgeon backed the actions of the UK Government on the basis of the shared intelligence, but on the provision that no Typhoons from the shared QRA in Lossiemouth were used, and she didn’t want to hear about any Astute subs still based in Faslane for a 10 year period being used in any attacks.

    209. manandboy says:

      Some info from inside Syria on the White Helmets who are promoted by UK MSM as a rescue and first aid group, but are in fact a fifth column for the West operating against the Assad government and alongside the terrorist groups like Al Nusra.
      The White Helmets, unusually for an aid group, carry filming equipment which they use invariably for making material for propaganda purposes.

    210. Thepnr says:


      You wouldn’t be here if Scotland declared UDI so would not have to face any consequences would you?

      As you have told us in the past, your home is England and you are now in your 80’s.

      Unless you state you will be back soon then I don’t think you should express an opinion one way or another as to Scotland’s constitutional future. Since you do not have a vote in it.

    211. Lenny Hartley says:

      Breeks where do you get EFTA is not mandated , the manifesto said this “We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there
      is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.”
      It did not say that we must rejoin the EU, it said material change in circumstances that prevailed in 2014 such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will. it will be for the people of Scotland to decide is they wish to rejoin Europe either as a full member or via EFTA/EEA.

    212. manandboy says:

      And so, for the reported price of 8 missiles, (£6.5 million) none of whom may have reached their already abandoned targets, Theresa May has had a major political makeover. From being a fumbling, bumbling, incompetent disaster, she is now the Commander-in-Chief of a successful British assault on a foreign tyrant.

      While Corbyn abstains yet again with the rest of his Party so as to keep the division in Labour from the public gaze.

    213. schrodingers cat says:

      If the Supreme Court judges these bills within competence, then the devolved executives will have new leverage to pressure the Government into amending to the EU Withdrawal Bill, to which they have consistently refused to grant consent under the Sewel Convention.

      If agreement on the EU Withdrawal Bill is reached, then Scottish and Welsh ministers might be willing to drop their continuity bills, but they will extract a price in terms of greater devolved control over powers returning from Brussels.

      Alternatively, the UK Government could refuse to amend the EU Withdrawal Bill and simply legislate over the top of the devolved bodies, rendering the Scottish and Welsh bills ineffective despite the court ruling in their favour. But this would be highly controversial and the Government might struggle to gain a parliamentary majority for this.

      But the Government could still face problems even if the court rules in their favour. One possible outcome is that the court gives the devolved legislatures the option to amend their continuity bills to bring them back within competence. This would extend the dispute further, at a time when the timetable to implement Brexit is already ambitious.

      And even if the continuity bills are struck down in their entirety, this will not help get the EU Withdrawal Bill through. Scotland and Wales are likely to withhold consent in any case, and while legally possible, proceeding without consent would be a risky strategy for Westminster to follow.

    214. manandboy says:


      Taking a step back from everything that’s happened since March 4 in Salisbury, it looks, sounds and feels like the whole episode has been, and is continuing to be completely stage-managed, mostly by the Americans.

      And we haven’t even begun to talk about the two big oil/gas pipelines which pass through Syria, one backed by the Russians which comes from Iran, and the other, from Qatar which is backed by the US and Saudi Arabia, and which are in competition with one another to supply the EU with oil and gas. That is what this Russia-Phobia propaganda campaign is all about. Surprise, surprise.

      Chemical weapons, my eye. The US has stockpiles of them, and I’d bet the UK has them too, perhaps stored out of sight up in the hillside bunkers above Faslane.

    215. ahundredthidiot says:

      What’s all this nonsense about chemical weapons?

      I mean, back in the day you got an extra 35 quid a day to go to Porton Down and be their guinea pig.

      If taking advantage our financially incompetent, gambling addict and/or debt ridden soldiers is fair game for UK security services, then I would suggest so are a couple of Russians.

      And the White Helmets should get another TV award, let’s face it, they’re doing a sterling job so far as ISIS and the West are concerned.

      Popcorn at the ready, particularly now the UK government has a green light – thanks Labour.

      Lest We Forget

    216. colin alexander says:

      I genuinely hope the SNP’s Continuity Bill was written in compliance with the law.

      Thank goodness Mr Swinney is not responsible for it, so we can avoid the unlawful shambles of the Named Person Scheme that would have breached the human rights of children, parents and carers until it was amended following the Supreme Court’s ruling.

    217. mike cassidy says:

      As a bit of light relief –

      maybe the reason why Cambridge Analytica is the least of our problems.

    218. yesindyref2 says:

      I’ve been thinking doing a boring job, that posting I did, maybe some proper writers could do some real short stories based on us having been Indy, but current day, or even just a few months in the future. Put them on a blog. Could call the genre “Indy-Fi”.

    219. Andy-B says:

      Apparently the Russian military has found the chemical weapons stash in Syria, and they don’t belong to Assad.

    220. Colin Alexander says:

      However, Mr Swinney’s poor handling of the Named Person Scheme and the SNP’s less than perfect handling of issues with Syria is slight mistakes compared to Shona Robison’s abject failure to properly monitor and regulate Scotland’s Health Boards.

    221. Breeks says:

      Lenny Hartley says:
      17 April, 2018 at 6:26 pm
      Breeks where do you get EFTA is not mandated , the manifesto said this “We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum….

      That’s the mandate for another Independence Referendum Lenny. A material change warrants another Independence Referendum. That has nothing to do with EFTA.

      The Brexit Referendum was a UK wide referendum on whether the UK should exit the EU. The Sovereign people of Scotland said the UK should Remain, and the larger majority but crucially Non-Sovereign people of England, Wales voted to leave. The UK cannot now leave EU without subjugating the Sovereign will of the Scottish people.

      Just as the UK is bound by Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty, so too is the SNP. Leaving the EU, whether through an enthusiastic Hard Brexit or an involuntary Soft Brexit makes no difference to the act of subjugation of Scottish Sovereignty. If the people of Scotland are sovereign, then Brexit, any Brexit, is unconstitutional. EFTA is a Soft Brexit Option which has a prerequisite of Brexit having to happen, whereby the subjugation of Scottish Sovereignty has already taken place.

      The ONLY Constitutional mandate concerning Brexit is Scotland’s Remain majority. EFTA is a Trade Deal presented as a poor man’s EU Membership, but that isn’t the case. All the protections of the EU collective body, all the 3rd Party Trade Agreements with non-EU countries which protect our distinct Scottish Brands will be forfeited when we exit the EU Umbrella. EFTA is merely consent to sit at the table, where you will require to pay your share of the bill, but have neither sight of the menu nor choice of what to eat, only whether to eat it.

      EFTA could, and if it happens very likely will, feature a ‘Swiss Trap’ trade deal arrangement with an all-or-nothing ‘guillotine clause’ that forces Scotland to accept EU law and standards or instantly default to having zero access to the Single Market. Given Scotland’s current integration with the rest of the UK, the EU will be doubly concerned about UK wide deregulation and divergence away from EU standards, so making a Swiss Trap Trade Deal look positively majestic by comparison. Don’t take my word for it, read the grave concerns Michel Barnier has about a UK Trade Deal.

      EFTA has virtually no economic muscle to defend Scotland’s interests wherever they may be compromised. The EU via collective bargaining and leverage could affect swinging sanctions upon any Nation which seeks to undermine Scotland’s produce and standards. Sounds pretty high and mighty, but put it context….

      Suppose an Independent Scotland outside the EU was striving to maintain EU convergence over food standards while South of the Border England deregulated it’s own standards to embrace US standards. Say too, UK Supermarkets we’re refusing to respect Scottish Border Controls and started selling inferior product in Scottish shops. Their labelling might be deliberately vague and sub-EU standard so nobody can tell what you’re eating or where it came from. Of course Scotland could appeal to law, but what if UK Supermarkets simply refused to maintain their outlets? Scotland would be alone, fighting off the rampant devious consumerism of the Supermarkets, the US, and the rUK, and don’t forget defeat in any such matter creates problems for Scotland’s convergence with EU standards under constant threat of the Swiss Trap guillotine clause.

      As an EU member state however, Scotland would have the whole of Europe at its back, with the necessary muscle, legislation, European Court and collective bargaining power to affect sanctions or suspend trading agreements across a whole spectrum of Trade goods, not just the narrow area of dispute. Scotland alone couldn’t hope to tell the USA to back off, but you can be damned sure the EU could and the USA would have to listen.

      I don’t believe it for a single moment, but even supposing EU Membership was a bad deal or prohibitively expensive for Scotland’s economy to sustain, (this is fantasyland but let’s say that’s the case), consider whether it is better off having all the protection of the EU while Scotland extricates itself from the UK, for the reasons above to name but a couple, or, decides to roll with Brexit, then secure Independence, then contend with rUK deregulation whilst aspiring to meet EU convergence criteria with a cliff edge for our economy if we failed.

      EU Membership is our guarantee of protection and stability as Scotland tries to rid itself of a screaming and vengeful UK Establishment from our quilted farmers to the BBC daily shit bulletin as it tries to destabilise our breakaway endeavour. I don’t know about you, but I like the idea of France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Denmark, Belgium, the Netherlands, etc standing shoulder to shoulder with wee Scotland. Somehow I see possibilities which Norway and Switzerland just aren’t going to provide.

      There is no mandate for EFTA. And if it came to vote, I wouldn’t give it one. The EU is where we belong.

    222. Famous15 says:

      All my life I have supported Scottish Independence.Nothing will ever change that. I was a member when our candidates including myself were barely competent public speakers. We have come a long way and our level of intelligent response to perfidious British Nationalism is at its clever best.

      I trust the SNP leadership,not just because they are the only show in town but because they have the smarts to gain independence. HOLD,HOLD.

    223. yesindyref2 says:

      So I see the Toomy Trollope brigade is arriving, with the Warden to start off, followed by the Last Chronicle of Arse, Kept in the Dark, Is He Poopthejoy? Arsechester Towers, He Knew he was Wrong, the Chronicles of Swinney and Robsion, Can you Forgive Her, The Useless Sparklers, Never, Never – Never, Never, Not if I can Help it, Mushrooms – the sequel to Kept in the Dark, and loads of other such goodies.

    224. Big Jock says:

      I have never advocated UDI or rushing in. UDI is a last resort against physical oppression. Neither do I want the referendum tomorrow.

      However we are now technically 11 months from Brexit day. There is no date set for our referendum despite having the mandate. We don’t have years . We have 2 years at most.After Brexit things are going to change. May is a genuine threat to Scotland. They will have plans in place to prevent a referendum ever happening.

      I believe it will take at least 6 months to get a date for a referendum. This time we have left is now critical. I count the last year as wasted. We are not any further forward other than Brexit looming closer.

      This is not panic or impatience it’s practical reality. Something must happen by June this year or time will be our enemy not Westminster.

    225. schrodingers cat says:

      Something must happen by June this year or time will be our enemy not Westminster.

      time is an issue, no question, but the launch of indyref2 will be june-oct.
      i’m not convinced that if oct rather than june we will be doomed

    226. Effijy says:

      Colin Alexander:

      Everything about you shouts Unionist Troll.
      Shona seems to be the favourite target for
      The Westminster parties their media and Trolls.

      Scotland should have the worst NHS in the UK
      As we have a history of poor diet with an excess
      Of fried foods, sugars and salt.

      We also have a higher level of alcohol abuse..
      Having so many remote Highland and Island
      Communities and more sever weather conditions
      Again penalises our Health services.

      How bazar to find we completely out perform the NHS
      Of Tory England, who have privatised around 12% of
      Their service to save money, Labour’s NHS is a disaster
      And comes in behind England, and last and least is NHS
      Northern Ireland and the nut case DUP .

      So Mr Alexander you and your kind want to sack the Lady who
      Heads up this wonderful world leading service and replace it with
      Something less competent and extend A & E Times, see patients stuck
      Inside ambulances, have locked doors on hospitals that are full,
      See our Junior Doctors strike and force contracts on them, start privatising
      The service, charge for prescriptions and ensure you insult much needed EU
      health care workers to the degree were you send them home and stop them coming over!

      Go get it Colin! I’ll chip in for your fare South, East or West where you can get another
      Health Minister and an inferior health service.

      I won’t respond to any reply from disruptive trolls looking to degrade our public services.

    227. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “However, Mr Swinney’s poor handling of the Named Person Scheme and the SNP’s less than perfect handling of issues with Syria is slight mistakes compared to Shona Robison’s abject failure to properly monitor and regulate Scotland’s Health Boards”

      You’re on thin ice with this dull trolling, Col.

    228. Sarah says:

      Iain McGlade at 12.43 today suggests we have a DIY referendum along the lines of the 1950’s Scottish Covenant which collected two MILLION signatures in support of devolution.

      I didn’t know anything about that petition until The National ran an article about it. The movement was led by the Church of Scotland.

      I haven’t seen anybody responding to Iain McGlade’s idea. It looks good to me – it would give the Scottish Government and SNP confidence that there is support for withdrawing from the Union and empower them. What do you think, Wingers?

    229. Gary says:

      I didn’t know that Labour had abstained. I knew that there was a three-line whip on the Tories for the vote though.

      I sincerely hope that this is not Westminster’s version of ‘the Bin Principle’ ie abstaining on ANYTHING brought forward by SNP, purely because it has been put forward by the SNP.

      Unsurprisingly none of this got a mention on any news item I saw on TV.

      Labour, again, should hang it’s head in shame. It could either have voted WITH SNP or given a free vote. Abstaining is utterly gutless and goes against everything their own supporters stand for, a complete betrayal…

    230. louis.b.argyll says:

      Think we alone about the future? By definition the Westminster establishment does.

      The way the SNP operates makes it more democratic than other parties.

      Some say quick, some say slow, some say react, some say make a stand, altogether on the same side, layers of difference not career busting splinter groups.

    231. heedtracker says:

      SLabstaining on fracking is very ghastly.

      “Weirdly, Jim Murphy, who said just days ago that if he were to become First Minister he’d impose a moratorium very similar to the Lib Dem one that Labour abstained on, didn’t turn up to either vote for that UK-wide one or to vote to give himself the future power to actually enforce such a ban in Scotland.

      He was playing keepy-uppy in Aberdeen instead, for reasons which are unclear.”

      We don’t HAVE to do it,

    232. yesindyref2 says:

      Petition on SNP website “Hands off Scotland’s Powers”

    233. Rock says:

      Rock (28th October 2014 – “And still there were none”):

      “Scotland’s enemy number 2 is the Labour party, enemy number 1 being the BBC.”

    234. Rock says:

      Robin Cook’s resignation was more to do with his own ego and arrogance than any concern for democracy.

      Not to forget he was dead against Scottish independence.

    235. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Derick fae Yell at 12.50

      Good post. Watch this space indeed.The final battle will be Scotland v the Tories. Its up to Labour and the fantasy LibDems whether they are with us or just cease to exist.

    236. Rock says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      17 April, 2018 at 10:26 am

      “I’m on record criticising the SNP for their stance on the Skripal poisonings too.”

      Me too:

      Rock (16th March – “The greasy poll”):

      “Nicola and the SNP made utter fools of themselves by supporting Saint Theresa, in my humble opinion.”

      Bob Mack says:
      27 March, 2018 at 9:23 pm (“With a weary sigh”)


      Your opinion is indeed humble, and usually wrong as well.”

    237. heedtracker says:

      “Scotland’s enemy number 2 is the Labour party, enemy number 1 being the BBC.”

      Why do you think so many SLabour votes went to the Colonel last time Rock, Colonel Ruth I mean? We cant know how many Scots no longer watch BBC Scotland creepy SNP Out grot.

      Its one thing for SLab voter unionism in Scotland to go to the Colonel but was it all down to poor old Kez D, or is there something about the Colonel that attracts SLabour voters?

      Heat must eventually be turned up under that Richard Leonard nohoper too, christ he’s weak as weewee too.

      It looks like a lot of Scots clearly just flat out refuse to vote in any more General elections, let alone snap Strong and Stable GE’s. They’ve just had enough of this UKOK tory bullshit Rock?

      Give them independence or nothing, that’s what Prof Poultice’s is saying to the great beeb gimp network, carefully preparing to BBC terrorise the NO in to everyone, indyref2.

    238. Rock says:

      The clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here who enthusiastically agreed with Nicola’s public stand on the alleged poisoning of the British spy should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves, but they won’t because they have no shame.

      I might be regularly attacked by the usual suspects but I say it as I see it:

      Rock (16th March – “The greasy poll”):

      “Now that the United Kingdom is at war with Russia and Nicola totally agrees with Saint Theresa, there is a ZERO chance of an independence referendum before Brexit has been completed.

      I am revising my previous prediction of 1% chance downwards to 0% chance. I will be happy to be proven wrong.”

      Rock (9th September 2017 – “Mascot Of The Universe”):

      “– I can say with 99% confidence that Nicola will not dare defy Saint Theresa.

      By squandering a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen – Nicola has set back the independence movement by at least 620 years.

      So she is now flogging another dead horse:

      “Scotland is the best place in the world to grow up in and be educated”

      Why do we need “independence” in that case?”

    239. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      17 April, 2018 at 12:41 pm

      “That is to qualify that, acting upon official information provided by Westminster Establishment sources she/they agree with the Westminster view.”

      Did the official UK opposition leader Corbyn receive different official information than Nicola?

      While the gutless Nicola stood “shoulder to shoulder” with Saint Theresa and Boris Johnson, Corbyn showed real guts in questioning the “evidence”.

      If even the hapless Corbyn was not afraid of being “crucified” why should the Nicola, the leader of the Scottish independence party?

      If blind faith in religion is bad, blind faith in politicians is worse.

      Rock (25th January – “By hook or by Cook”):

      “The British Establishment makes sure that anyone who goes to Westminster gets corrupted.

      56 SNP MPs achieved as much for Scotland as 6 would have: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

      I would prefer that all of them are called back or lose their seats before they have been bought off.”

    240. yesindyref2 says:

      Don’t forget to support The National, we need it.

    241. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I see “Colin Alexander” at 7.30 having lost the argument goes off on another tack (and several more)

      Actually the court said the named Person Act was basically admirable but just required some refining in its wording.

    242. Shinty says:

      Scotland’s enemy No. 2 has always been the Labour party – look at their record and judge for yourself.

      They are happy to be in or out of Government, pigs at the trough.

      Only independence for Scotland would give us real choice – parties left, right, centre and anything inbetween – but all fit for purpose for the benefit of Scotland and her people.

    243. heedtracker says:

      Rock tantrum!

      You’re on the side of a certain blogger Mr Craig Murray too Rock.

      How does that make you feel:D

      Its ok to have another Roch tantrum, Rock!

    244. Indy2 says:

      Tomorrow’s National front page:

    245. Indy2 says:

      Tomorrow’s “National” Twitter pages:

    246. louis.b.argyll says:

      Sarah, 8.59, re giant petitions..with serious intentions.

      Sounds like a lot of paperwork, would be the biggest administrative achievement since the 2014 postal fraud.

      Oof, said it. I’ll get ma coat.

    247. heedtracker says:

      Evening indy2. Thanks for the links. The National’s a major no no for Rock up there. Did you know that?

    248. Ken500 says:

      56 SNP MP’s achieved £9Billion for Scotland. Questioned the accusation that Scotland was subsidised now dropped. Another landslide victory in every Westminster, Holyrood and most council elections. Only every countered by Unionists criminal crooked and appalling behaviour which goes unpunished by a Westminster/unionists corruption. Now being questioned even in and outside Westminster.

      Disclosures made by the SNP MP’s fighting Scotland corner and standing up for Scotland now providing evidence of Westminster corruption which otherwise would go undetected etc.

      Under a corruption electoral system. When FPTP would have got rid of all the 3rd rate rejects. On an electoral system changed without authority in order to give the unionists unfair advantage, The criminals troughing all together. Their illegal behaviour there exposed for all to see losing them votes hand over fist. Thank goodness for the SNP.

      The Tory conmen, the Labour abstainers and the LibDem liars all together. They are a disgrace. Who would ever vote for any of them in Scotland. Useless incompetents. Low lives. Thank goodness for the SNP standing up, supporting and supported in Scotland.

      The Tories killing off their own supporters. The elderly. Vote Tory – Unionist to die younger.

      Increasing support for Independence and another IndyRef. Happening soon.

    249. Northern Rock says:

      “May faces defeat in the Lord’s over Customs Union”

      The UK’s upper house – the House of Lords – could call into question Theresa May’s resolve to lead the country outside the Customs’ Union on Wednesday, Reuters reports.

      The British prime minister is leading a minority government dependent on the confidence vote of the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP), following her decision to call early elections in June 2017.

      Hardline Leave campaigners have been arguing that in order to turn Brexit into an opportunity the UK must leave the Customs’ Union to negotiate its own trade deals around the world. Labour’s opposition has argued at different times both for remaining in the Customs’ Union or “a Customs’ Union,” prioritizing the unity of Ireland.

      Although Theresa May commands a fragile majority in the House of Commons, the Conservative Party is a minority in the House of Lords.

      According to Reuters, some Lords have made clear that they want to amend the Brexit withdrawal bill, forcing ministers to secure “a customs union” agreement by October 2018. The initiative has some degree of bipartisan support by Liberals and pro-European Conservatives.

      The leader of Labours’ parliamentary group in the House of Lords, Angela Smith, said the proposed amendments would give the government a chance to provide concrete answers rather than “kick the can” of various challenges down the road.

      If the Conservative government is defeated in the House of Lords, then the bill returns to the House of Commons for debate. Both houses must approve the bill before it becomes law.

      Theresa May appears willing to negotiate a compromise on the Customs’ Union, promising to retain regulatory alignment without membership of the Customs’ Union.

      Theresa May has argued that Ireland can remain borderless – or avoid an ill-defined “hard border” – by resorting to technological solutions.

    250. heedtracker says:

      Rock you’ll like this one from beeb UK gimp zone, smearing SNP with their tory masters Cambridge Analytic company.

      These beeb gimps are notably not saying that a top toryboy owns Cambridge Anal’s parent corp. How odd.

      Right in there, “The Scottish Conservatives said that if Ms Kaiser’s claims were true, “the hypocrisy from the nationalists is jaw-dropping”.

      and “scandalSNP”

      Cambridge Analytica ‘met SNP’ to pitch services
      7 hours ago

      Former Cambridge Analytica director Brittany Kaiser said the firm had held meetings with the SNP

      Cambridge Analytica pitched its services to the SNP in meetings in London and Edinburgh, a former director at the consultancy firm has claimed.

      The company has come under scrutiny following controversy about its use of Facebook data and political tactics.

      Former director Brittany Kaiser told MPs that Cambridge Analytica had tried to win work with the SNP.

      The party said an external consultant had held one meeting with the firm, and had declared them “a bunch of cowboys”.

      The Scottish Conservatives said that if Ms Kaiser’s claims were true, “the hypocrisy from the nationalists is jaw-dropping”.

      Related Topics
      Brendan O’HaraFacebook-Cambridge Analytica data scandalSNP (Scottish National Party)

    251. Thepnr says:


      Why do you feed the trolls? Are you that desperate for attention too?

      I would guess and it’s just my estimation, that more than 95% of readers and posters on Wings wish you would leave them well alone since you just encourage them to post more shite that is of no interest to most readers.

      All it does is make posts like this one I’m doing now moaning about it and no cunt want’s to read that either. Do you get it?

      Take your own poll if you like, just my gut feeling.

    252. Sinky says:

      BBC national TV news fails to mention Supreme Court threat to Welsh and Scottish devolved powers.
      Of no interest to UK establishment.

    253. Sarah says:

      louis b Argyll: at least you answered [after a fashion!].

      Seriously, if a 2 MILLION signature petition can be achieved in the “old days” surely with computers and the internet it can be done today?

      Wee Ginger and others are right to say we have to do things ourselves. We can’t sit back and wait because we must show our own side what we want, AND show the Union establishment that we are too many for them to bully.

      And another thing we need is our own billboard business so we can display what we want to show i.e. the truth about what is in the news, the Westminster system etc etc etc.

    254. Lenny Hartley says:

      Breeks what i was saying is that we dont have to immediately rejoin the EU as you say the matter of leaving the EU is a sufficient mandate to call another referendum.
      Now we could lose that referendum unless we maximise the potential yes vote, therefore i contend that Europe should not come into the equation during Indy ref 2 . These things can be decided after Indy ref2, we could retain holding pen /transitional basis until that decision is made. There is nothing to stop us holding a EU/Efta or whatever the sovereign people of Scotland wish referendum during the transition from being in the UK to becoming an Independent Nation again.

    255. Lenny Hartley says:

      Thenp @1032r well said.

    256. Ken500 says:

      To add to all the other achievements. Student/uni social care, bus passes, roads, rail, bridges NHS

      Minimum pricing in May. Direct China flights June.

    257. heedtracker says:

      Thepnr says:
      17 April, 2018 at 10:32 pm

      Why do you feed the trolls? Are you that desperate for attention too?

      Awe. They’re my little pets. You have yours no doubt.

      Is it really necessary to keep saying this? if you don’t like btl comments, don’t READ them.

      Also, they’re handy for hanging points on too.

    258. Rock says:

      Ken500 (17th April – “Trampling on graves”):

      “56 SNP MP’s achieved £9Billion for Scotland.”

      Ken500 (14th March – “Spinning down”):

      “SNP MP’s in Westminster ensured Scotland received £7Billlon which Osbourne was trying to take from Scotland.”

      Did the SNP MPs get £2 Billion more in just over a month?

      Overall, 10% of what you post is true, 50% is waffle and rants, 40% is fake news, in my humble opinion.

    259. Gary45% says:

      Unfortunately up here there are many voters who would still vote for a “Shite with a red rosette.” cause its “No the ESENPEEE”, down south they are the Red Tories anyway.
      Corbyn genuinely could have been the answer to the “Southern Nation”, but he has fallen into the Establishment trap, there is no going back for him now, he has given the most useless government ever, ammunition to basically ridicule him at every opportunity.
      Heavy times ahead.

    260. yesindyref2 says:

      Just thinking, it’s always worth hovering over a link to make sure it goes to where it says it does. For instance, if this works:, specially from known trolls.

    261. schrodingers cat says:

      soz heed
      im with pnr

      try ignoring them for a few days, see if the threads are less disruptive

    262. Rock says:

      heedtracker says:
      17 April, 2018 at 10:14 pm

      “Rock tantrum!

      You’re on the side of a certain blogger Mr Craig Murray too Rock.”

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      17 April, 2018 at 10:26 am

      “I’m on record criticising the SNP for their stance on the Skripal poisonings too.”

      heedtracker (9th February 2017 – “A division of principles”):

      “Rock, whatever you’re up to on WoS, listen up, the author of Wings over Scotland is not the messiah and he’s not going to win ref 2.”

      Rock (9th February 2017 – “A division of principles”):

      “If anyone can tip the balance in favour of winning, it is this site and its author.”

    263. Ken500 says:

      @ no Report in the Guardian word for word commentary of any reference by Kaiser to the SNP. Just another Herald smear? Lies. Another belated apology. Wigmore getting agitated and Banks using company personal data information, Totally illegally. SCL. Accountancy firm recommends charges.

      Another carry on at the Herald. A court case involving another would be editor.

    264. Meg merrilees says:


      BBC Wales no longer has any article about the upcoming challenge in the Supreme court to the Welsh and Scottish Continuity bills. BBC Scotland never mentioned it and still doesn’t and it’s not reported on the main BBC webpage. Maybe it’s just fake news?

      Rather worryingly, the headline in Wales is about an attempt to get rid of Carwyn Jones for alleged lying. ( rank hypocrisy in the UK gov there i think!)

      Nothing to see here – pass on by..

    265. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers says (to Thepnr):
      27 March, 2017 at 7:40 pm (“The same old songs again”):

      “Oh! For the Heaven’s sake stop being so bloody stupid. First of all you are not the person who decides what the purpose of the Rev Stu’s blog is. That’s the Rev Stu’s choice to make. Secondly you probably wouldn’t recognise a real Troll if it was chewing on your ear.”

    266. schrodingers cat says:

      if you don’t like btl comments, don’t READ them.

      difficult, the multiple posts disturb the thread

      Also, they’re handy for hanging points on too.

      no they arnt, the numerous insults being hurled backward and forward add nothing to the discussion.

      just try it for a few days heed, it wouldnt hurt you

    267. Graf Midgehunter says:

      @ Thepnr 10.32pm

      You’re not the first one to say that again.

      It’s not the trolls themselves but the (few) suckers who can’t resist the “urge”.

    268. Thepnr says:


      “Awe. They’re my little pets. You have yours no doubt.”

      Then can you have your “little pets” and yourself find somewhere else to play because they stink the house out and it is you that is encouraging them to come in.

      Wings over Scotland is about gaining our Independence and for peoples discussions around peoples views on that.

      Pets such as you refer too are not welcome.

    269. Rock says:

      schrodingers cat says (to heedtracker):
      17 April, 2018 at 11:09 pm

      “no they arnt, the numerous insults being hurled backward and forward add nothing to the discussion.

      just try it for a few days heed, it wouldnt hurt you”

      schrodingers cat says:
      17 March, 2018 at 1:32 pm (“The usual suspect”)

      “fyi, i have been posting with heedtracker and dadsarmy for years on various social media sites and while we dont always agree with each other, their post are always worth reading.”

      Make up your mind.

      Do heedtracker’s posts “add nothing to the discussion” or “are always worth reading”?

      You can’t have it both ways, like Labour.

    270. Thepnr says:

      @schrodingers cat

      Dont bite lol.

    271. Ken500 says:

      The SNP have gained Scotland £Billions with good governance. Unlike some low life toe rags. That is why they get such amazing support. 50%. Higher than any other political Party in the UK. With Nicola out polling every other politician. Out polling everyone. Alex Salmond is one of the greatest world Statesman that Scotland/World has ever had. Along with most of the SNP politicians and members. Highly educated and of good ability, empathy and smart.

      China calls Scotland the ‘Land of invention’. Calls Britain the small island without Empire. Now chucking out members of the Commonwealth. Denying them hospital treatment and deporting them. It is just appalling.

      The Auld Alliance. Mr McAllister in Germany. Told Coburn off. Alyn Smith EU standing ovation. 55% in Scotland have higher education. One of the highest numbers in the world. Scotland one of the first countries in the world to have higher tertiary education. Medica, telecommunications, TV, wireless. Leading on to the internet. Great achievements which shaped the modern world.

      Labour abstaining on their own motions. No one can understand what they are doing any more. Despicable. The LibDem liars.

      Thank goodness for the SNP standing up for Scotland. Would not like to see the state of the unionists. Totally incomprehensive and incoherent. What a mess.

    272. schrodingers cat says:


      i like heeds posts, i just find his bickering with trolls tedious and disruptive, thats all, no great conspiracy.

      run along now rock, nothing to see

    273. heedtracker says:

      just try it for a few days heed, it wouldnt hurt you

      Alright, seeing as its you

      Hear that Rock and rest of the little rocks.

    274. Bill Hume says:

      It’s been a good day in Ayrshire, a bit windy but nice. I got out with my old Hassy film camera and managed to pop into the local Yes Hub in Kilmarnock. I dropped off a few Wee Black Books for them because I feel the fight for independence is just about to enter a ‘hot’ stage.
      I suspect many here will feel it can’t come soon enough and some will feel it’s too soon. Regardless, we must all be ready and start the campaign now because we can’t just sit about waiting for events to unfold. Get out the Yes badges and wear them. Get the stickers on your cars and get involved locally wherever possible.
      I hope to be photographing lots (and I mean thousands) of my fellow wingers on May 5th in Glasgow.

    275. Ken500 says:

      Scotland has lost £Billions to Westminster lies and criminality. Kept secret under the Official Secrets Act. The McCrone Report. Paying for illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Westminster lies and malicious behaviour only exposed by the SNP good governance. Publishing accounts etc. While Westminster unionists deliberately kept it secret. With lie after lie after lie.
      Iraq, Lockerbie, Dunblane kept secret for 100 years.

      Thatcher lies etc papers released after 30 years. Offshoring the Oil revenues etc. Exposed by the SNP. The McCrone Report. The UK the most unequal place in the world with some of the most debt.

    276. t42 says:


      the quality of being pompous; self-importance.
      “his reputation for arrogance and pomposity”
      synonyms: self-importance, imperiousness, pompousness, sententiousness, grandiosity, affectation, stiffness, airs, pretentiousness, pretension, arrogance, vanity, haughtiness, pride, conceit, egotism, superciliousness, condescension, affectedness

      Nobody from the telly invited him in so he spits the dummy.
      “the devil makes work for idol hands”.

    277. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      And more…….

    278. Smallaxe says:

      Your link, Dave.

      SAS Chief: Nobody Believes Assad Used Chemical Weapons;

    279. Breeks says:

      Lenny I have the greatest difficulty understanding why, when confronted with a definitive Constitutional crisis to remove Scotland from Europe against its will, we do not plan to engage with that Constitutional crisis until after our Constitutional sovereignty has been defeated.

      As I tried to explain, staying in the EU is essential for our economic welfare, especially at a time of great upheaval which our emancipation from the UK will be.

      Why should the pro-European majority forfeit their interests in staying in the EU to a minority of anti European Brexiteers who would hold Scottish Independence to ransome until after Brexit was realised?

      Nobody can make the positive case for an EFTA type Soft Brexit on socio-economic grounds, but invariably present EFTA as a cheap and cheerful compromise that is necessary to forestall the hard-to-please Brexiteers who don’t like Europe, from backing away from Independence.

      Why are we pandering to a minority of Brexiteers who insist we throw away the seminal constitutional impasse which a Sovereign Remain Vote in Scotland created, as opposed to the Brexit vote where Westminster would have to break our sovereignty to impose it’s will, and furthermore do so against the democratic majority of the sovereign people?

      By far, the much stronger economic and Constitutional position is to Remain in Europe and defend our sovereign democratic decision to remain in Europe. Concede nothing. Defend all we hold – our Sovereignty, our democratic mandate, our EU Citizenship, and our Constitutional integrity.

      It makes no sense whatsoever to concede that Brexit is inevitable when it isn’t, forfeit our constitutional sovereignty and EU Citizenship by meekly allowing it to be overruled, (a de facto recognition of Westminster’s sovereignty), actually suffer the damage of Brexit, and only then propose to win a referendum to take back the sovereignty having just thrown away the strongest possible definitive Constitutional argument we could ever possibly hope to have.

    280. Lenny Hartley says:

      Breeks have a look at the Polls!

    281. Hamish100 says:

      Independence or Brexit

    282. K1 says:

      ‘Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      17 April, 2018 at 8:22 pm
      “However, Mr Swinney’s poor handling of the Named Person Scheme and the SNP’s less than perfect handling of issues with Syria is slight mistakes compared to Shona Robison’s abject failure to properly monitor and regulate Scotland’s Health Boards”

      You’re on thin ice with this dull trolling, Col.’

      That’s you finally tell, now fuck off wi your shite…forever.

    283. K1 says:


    284. Liz g says:

      Breeks @ 7.54
      As I see it,it’s the fact that Scotland voted differently in the EU referendum and is being overruled that is the reason for Indy ref two,not the decision over the EU…
      Bear with me here….

      Firstly…I think that the current membership if not already gone,can’t be transferred over to just us,so we will need to negotiate our own anyway.

      Secondly…..The relationship that Westminster has,with the EU, won’t necessarily suit Scotland anyway, EG we would hopefully make Fishing much more of a priority!

      Lastly and more importantly…..
      Is our sovereignty.
      And I mean Ours not Holyroods.

      Now as I understand it the EU pretty much cuts a deal with its members “according to their own Constitutional arrangements” !
      We will need to Write a Constitution and again I mean the people,no Holyrood and no “civic Scotland” ( wait till ye see them come crawling out to have their say, after the yes vote they do nothing to achieve)!

      I believe that putting a Sunset clause on any and all Unions of no greater than 25years,before Holyrood is Constitutionally bound to put the Union arrangements before the people,for approval to continue with it.
      Should be argued for.

      Never again should the Scottish parliament be able to sign up to something that lasts centuries,or endless decades!
      We don’t have the right to do to our descendants,what was done to us.
      We,the People of Scotland,in each generation, should always have the right to control the membership of any and All bodies of which we are a member.
      Without question!

      So I’m in no hurry to tie Indy Ref 2 with the EU,the EU membership,for me,is the cause of Indy ref 2,but not the reason!
      We don’t go to the EU as beggers,but we should apply for membership,with all side’s understanding that the arrangements will be put to the Scottish people every 25year’s.
      So therefore,I think….
      We should allow Holyrood to make international Treaties only after we have framed the parameters of what they are allowed to do in our Constitution..and that’s All Treaties….. NATO,EU,Westminster,Oil field’s ect.
      The Treaties must sill be working for Scotland or we can reject them!

    285. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “i like heeds posts, i just find his bickering with trolls tedious and disruptive, thats all, no great conspiracy”

      Same here, and because I’m TIRED OF FUCKING REPEATING MYSELF he’s on pre-moderation until it stops. Several people have gone on the list in the last few days, and more will follow until people start sodding well listening. Everyone’s had more than enough warnings. Don’t make me do it to the entire comments section.

    286. Chick McGregor says:

      Big thanks to Wings contributors over the past week. Many well informed and clearly enunciated BTL contributions of the truthful and rational variety shining forth through the inevitable tedious fog of cyberwar. Man of the match award goes to Thepnr.

      Churchill (or more likely one of his many scriptwriters) once famously said:

      “A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on”

      Because of the internet, we may not be quite be at the stage where:

      “The truth gets halfway around the world before a lie has a chance to get its pants on”

      But at least now it is a more even race.

    287. Cubby says:

      Colin Alexander @2.34

      Your links are – to use a Scottish technical term MINCE.

      UK constitution – English English English English that’s what it is – not UK.

      The very fact that you put these up betrays you as a Britnat or English Nationalist.

      Robert Peffers your comment seems sound. Seems like it has been squirrelled away for more than 300 years.

      On balance imo it looks just like something else the UK uses for its own devious and deceitful ends.

    288. MsDidi says:

      with you on this….I scroll past but they are getting more and more it seems. Some days it puts me off totally!
      heedtracker says:
      17 April, 2018 at 11:32 pm
      just try it for a few days heed, it wouldnt hurt you

      Alright, seeing as its you
      Nice one Heedtracker….I used to enjoy reading your posts but mostly scroll past now when the trolls are out!

    289. Colin Alexander says:

      Stu Campbell and Effijy

      One of the very specific reasons I support independence is to try and protect and encourage a flourishing Scottish National Health Service.

      For me, the NHS / welfare state is the jewel in the crown of Scottish public services – of any services.

      I have lots of admiration for many of the health service professionals and the work they do. However, amongst such a large organisation there are, like in any large organisation, some bad eggs; people who abuse positions of power and damage the trust in health professionals and the good reputation of the NHS and its staff.

      Some people might suggest NHS Tayside Board are a prime example of this. There are other examples which aren’t yet public knowledge.

      In my opinion, it’s better for the SNP Scot Govt (though I now care only a little about them) that Ms Robison voluntarily steps down now, rather than possibly being forced to resign in the coming months by the opposition.

      If she faces the criticism in future month, the impact of that and her resignation could damage the campaign for independence (and that is something that does cause me concern).

    290. Thepnr says:


      Excuse me just off to bed now.

    291. Colin Alexander says:


      I totally agree that what is called British is in fact almost all English history. That came from the BRITISH library website.

      So, I’m glad you picked up on it. Well done.

      So, what is supposed to be the basis of the UK constitution, of the examples they quote, it is nearly all about ENGLAND’s history.

      I’m not the author of the websites quoted. I never said I agreed or approved of what they said.

      I quoted them to show that the UK Govt and others believe there is a UK constitution, even though it’s not written down in a single document.

      As a result, it’s a UK constitution that I criticised as (deliberately designed to be) wide open to abuse.

      So, no, I am not a BritNat or Unionist.

    292. Thepnr says:

      Phump Phuump. A wet one. Sorry to have to let you know that.

    293. yesindyref2 says:

      It fair makes your eyes water.

    294. yesindyref2 says:

      So it looks like the UKG are going to court over the Continuity Bill, though they might still not go through with it and could be playing brinkmanship. But even this is doing good stuff. From Scottish Labour leader Richard Leonard:

      We’ve been clear that we supported the Continuity Bill and its emergency passage through the Scottish Parliament because we think devolution itself is at stake. We are in regular contact with our Labour colleagues in the Welsh Assembly and the Welsh Government, we have worked with them closely through the parallel passage of the legislation through the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament

      “Having voted for that legislation, we believe the challenge to it should be stoutly resisted in the courts.” (My bold).

      Good stuff, the Continuity Bill is already doing its job, and the Westminster Tories are walking in with size 15 hobnail boots and their eyes shut, aided and abetted by the Thirteen Twits.

      Meanwhile Mundell is making comments about job statistics in Scotland which isn’t his business because it’s devolved – adding even more weight to Leonard’s belief that devolution is under threat – constantly – from the Tories.

    295. Ken500 says:

      The Herald could not stoop any lower with it’s lying reporting. When people think it could not go any lower it does. The lies it is now telling are appalling. As low as they go. The readership tanking. Just disgraceful. It really is a waste of space,time and money. What a mess. What a disaster,

      Another belated apology is just not good enough.

      MSM Supporting sanctioning and killing people. Non Dom tax evaders.

    296. Breeks says:

      Sovereignty has nothing whatsoever to do with the polls.

      Sovereignty determines whether your democracy can be overruled where you are not sovereign, or cannot be overruled because you are.

      If Scotland votes for Independence, it isn’t democracy which wins it, it’s the sovereignty of our Constitution which sees the democratic result stand where nobody can overrule our decision. That’s why a NO vote is just as sovereign as a YES vote.

      We didn’t sacrifice sovereignty by voting No in 2014. We made a sovereign decision to stay in the UK Union. We decided against unravelling the Constitutional absurdity Scotland is afflicted by and chose not to open Pandora’s box. Next time we have a Constitutional referendum, might I make the suggestion that BOTH options on the ballot are Constitutionally sound alternatives.

      It wasn’t a democratic initiative which created Scotland’s “modern” Sovereignty, it was a Constitutional Claim in the 14th Century which won recognition, and secured ratification conceded by its principle Constitutional contender, and thus Scottish Sovereignty came into existence. A thing was done which cannot be undone, for as long as there is a single Scot alive.

      Without sovereignty, if Scotland was not sovereign, whoever was sovereign, and in our situation that presumably would be Westminster, would not have their Constitutional Sovereignty overruled by any merely democratic determination. That is the current situation in Catalonia and Spain.

      You can go above and beyond the call of duty to defend your democracy, but you must fight to the death to defend your sovereignty. The battle for sovereignty is an existential affair. It is the vital essence of whether your Nation exists or doesn’t.

      It isn’t impossible to win sovereignty if you don’t have it, but Scotland requires no such battle. We do not require any new sovereignty, we have sovereignty and 700 years of sovereign history and precedence. What we do need is to repel all boarders who currently challenge the sovereignty we already have.

      But when we ourselves do not recognise our own Sovereignty, then why do we somehow think other Nations will? That situation is where our actual sovereign existence is in greatest peril, not where any opinion stands in the polls. By the precise literal definition, we do know our own strength, and worse, we refuse to see our own strength but transpose that very same strength onto our faux “sovereign” overlords and respect their right to overrule us!!! What sad misdirected fools we are.

      For Westminster to overrule Scottish Sovereignty begs a fundamental question of what authority does Westminster claim for doing so? By who’s order? A Constitutional Courtcase will challenge the legitimacy of Scottish Sovereignty versus UK Sovereignty. Scotland’s Sovereignty was recognised in perpetuity by the Sovereign English Crown in 1328, so the Constitutional battle were are currently embroiled within sees Scotland off to a flying start… a point of identifiable origin, due recognition, and uniform acceptance. That matters. It means the thing we want is a thing that did exist and belonged to us. We don’t wish to create a new thing, just return an old thing to its rightful owner.

      That sets the whole Constitutional landscape. Scotland before the 1707 Union had a pristine and unchallenged Sovereignty. The later act (small a) of Union would have the world believe Scottish Sovereignty was removed from the people of Scotland and somehow became one with the divine sovereignty of the English throne. By what legitimate mechanism was that done? How was a thing that could not be undone actually undone? The short answer is it wasn’t. The Union’s claim over Scotland’s Sovereignty is bogus. It is not legitimate. It is a con which has secured conventional acceptance, but it is all a fiction built upon a lie.

      The only power the Palace of Westminster has over Scotland is power of the illusion in our Scottish psyche. The English, and that’s not bigoted reference, the English have the world convinced that the United Kingdom has sovereign legitimacy, and those are the circumstances recognised by the International community so it can deal with the UK on a basis of sovereignty. It wasn’t their choice, if you didn’t agree with 18th / 19th Century “Britain” they came along and thumped you.

      That means either we have to invoke our Scotland’s Sovereignty and defy England to defeat our claim, or we challenge the UK’s assertion that our “joined” Sovereignty properly exists and have them account for how it was legitimately done.

    297. Ken500 says:

      People just have to vote. They get a mandate and vote on it. That protects people sovereignty. It is up to the people.

      Just vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Get someone to vote as well. Simple. It could not be more easy.

      Just get off yer bum and do it.

    298. Macart says:

      Mornin’ Smallaxe

      Thanks for the links and I’m also hoping our lady of the links is keeping better.

      If you’re still in touch, we’re thinking of her. 🙂

    299. Smallaxe says:

      Ken500 says:

      “Vote for Independence. Get someone to vote as well. Simple. It could not be more easy. Just get off yer bum and do it.”

      Well said Ken500: If one teaches, many learn.

      Have great and peaceful day Wingers, lots of good posts last night.

    300. Golfnut says:

      @ Breeks.
      I agree, we seem to be getting tied up in the wrong battle, Westminster has been desperately trying to convince the people of Scotland for decades, indeed centuries that we have no power, that Westminsters authority cannot be challenged. Methinks they protest to much.
      The ‘ glorious revolution ‘ was English, the current English monarch rents her sovereignty to parliament, but that sovereignty applies only to England, Wales and NI. The Queen of Scots had and never had the authority to do the same with Scotland’s sovereignty, that passes to our elected representatives to carry to Westminster on our behalf, confirmed by the Supreme court when they body swerved the Treaty of Union, by stating thatthe people of Scotland sent their Soverienty to Westminster via their MP’s.
      It’s Westminsters Sovereignty that should be challenged, not ours.

    301. Smallaxe says:


      Thank you, I should be talking to Nana today, I’ll pass on your kind regards, my friend.

      Goebbels Recycled;

    302. Breeks says:

      Another desperately sad story, but man alive, what a picture…

      How can anybody willfully destroy such creatures? I mean, what the fk is wrong with you???

    303. Ghillie says:

      Breeks @ 8.21 am

      With you on that.

      The net has to be closing in on the killers.

    304. Macart says:


      Just watched the LBC link and yes it is quite the statement, but one that needed saying by someone in the media. Personally, I don’t think it stops at the PM. I think the whole damn party is detestable. Yes they do encourage societal hierarchy (it’s pretty much their thing) and yes I’d say they have extremely racially intolerant tendencies. Blukip if you will. Also yes, they aren’t big on empathy.

      They do know how to market themselves however. Turd polishing a speciality. They’ve managed, quite successfully, to encourage the very worst, most selfish aspects of their own population and get elected time after time. You get what you vote for.

      Beyond doubt, the UK has become increasingly racially and ethnically intolerant. Beyond doubt, the UK government has reneged on its pledges to home nations, commonwealth and European partners alike. Beyond doubt their media has done much to facilitate and encourage this intolerance. So yes, this is increasingly becoming a UK driven by a hierarchal and extremely intolerant exceptionalism, but people still need to choose for themselves whether they believe that horseshit. It’s not ALL on those who set the narrative.

      The population now need to ask themselves – Is this who they are? Is this who they want to be? Sadly and depressingly, some would be quite proud to answer yes to those questions.

    305. Smallaxe says:


      There are more of our beautiful raptors being killed than are reported. I live near a shooting estate and I see dead Buzzards, Hawks and even Magpies (known to eat eggs).

      They seem to have carte blanche in what they shoot, some even have stag horns mounted on the front of their cars which is totally illegal but they have driven for miles to get here without being pulled over.

      For some strange reason, a lot of them find that their tyres are flat when they arrive back at their cars. Very puzzling!

    306. Abulhaq says:

      Sending Sa3udi troops into Syria would be the height of idiocy, Sa3udis are hated.
      Even the idea is dangerous. The SNP needs to wise up on Syria. It listens to the wrong voices.
      With President Al Assad Syria is strong. Ask some Syrians, in Syria, not journalists who do not know the country about this man and be very surprised. May he have a long life!

    307. sinky says:

      Ken500 says:@ 18 April, 2018 at 7:25 am

      The Herald has fallen to emulating the same smear headlines as the Daily Mail this morning.

      All these headlines do is to divert attention from real Tory connections with Cambridge Analytics and those shadowy right wing campaign and policy groups whose finances are never disclosed.

    308. galamcennalath says:

      Brexit reality, as far as I am concerned …

      ” The Complete Failure Of The Brexit Project “

      “…if Brexiters were being honest they were never too worried about immigration: that was just a hook to catch voters with “ … spot on, and particularly gullible voters in particular.

      The graph is interesting showing that non EU immigration is now more than double EU immigration!

      So whatever ordinary Leave voters think Brexit means, it is no longer about free movement of EU citizens. That has already been ‘controlled’!

    309. Smallaxe says:


      Racism, especially down south worries me greatly. I have said before that I have two Afro/Carribean grandkids whose other grandparents on their father’s side came over on the Windrush. I’m disgusted by any kind of discrimination for whatever reason.

      One World One People One Love.

    310. Smallaxe says:

      Abulhaq says:

      “With President Al Assad Syria is strong. Ask some Syrians, in Syria, not journalists who do not know the country about this man and be very surprised. May he have a long life!”

      I have asked a Kurdish friend of mine (Kamaran, People for Peace!) and I agree with what you say, my friend.

    311. Smallaxe says:

      Brussels seeks emergency powers to prepare for hard Brexit;

      In Journalist’s Murder, a Test for Malta, and the European Union;

    312. Smallaxe says:

      Last one.

      Who Knew?
      Each Brexit scenario will leave Britain worse off, study finds;

    313. Abulhaq says:

      My relatives, their friends, acquaintances etc would back Al Assad with their lives. They have given up on the West altogether. The alternatives do not bear thinking about in the context of Syria’s future. It would be totally destroyed. Interesting that your Kurdish friends takes a positive view too of Basshâr. He must be doing something right.
      Syria is a small country not a war. yet it is, it seems, a target for Western venom.

    314. heedtracker says:

      One World One People One Love.

      BBC r4 Today show, starring Nic Robinson had a Times ligger on explaining possibilities of Amber Rudd resigning over Windrush nightmare but “its unlikely Teresa May will.”

      BBC r4 Today show starring Nic Robinson, essentially audio Daily Telegraph but their sports slot, always focused entirely on English sports, had very odd thing about an 1820? committee at Rangers Football Club, Glasgow, very unhappy about their last match result.

      March tory madness has passed right?

    315. Luigi says:

      Smallaxe says:
      Abulhaq says:

      “With President Al Assad Syria is strong. Ask some Syrians, in Syria, not journalists who do not know the country about this man and be very surprised. May he have a long life!”

      I have asked a Kurdish friend of mine (Kamaran, People for Peace!) and I agree with what you say, my friend.

      Most of the “rebels” fighting Assad in Syria are/were not Syrian. Including ISIS and other US-sponsored nasties. They were shipped in from Libya, Iraq and other failed states, courtesy of the CIA and their chums who are still smarting about losing “that pipeline”.

    316. Ken500 says:

      It’s the right wing Press that has totally fed into the illusion of other. Trying to make money but it is the UK Gov which is supposed to ensure a free and balance Press. The failure. The internet has taken up the slack. It is all starting to unravel now. The usual Tory – unionist blunders. Thank goodness Scotland now has Devolution and the SNP elected Gov to stand up for Scotland inspite of the multiple detractors. Just how much longer can this injustice continue. Not indefinitely. The wheels are coming off the Westminster unionist wagon. The criminality and corruption being exposed for all to see. Not a pleasant sight. Imagine the e-Mail boxes. Council election in the rest of the UK. 3rd May. Expect a rout. If there is any justice. They are destroying Democacy.

      The deportation? They took everything they could from these people and the Commonwealth. Now they are chucking them out. An appalling action.

      The migration crisis in Europe was caused by the U.K./US France bombing the Middle East to bits for years instead of helping the people. Historical failure of monumental disproportionate destruction. To line their own pockets. The EU are having to bail out (£Billions cost) the U.K./US French total illegal foreign policy failure. The behaviour towards Russia is years out of date. Living in the past. Russia saved the West in the 11WW. 26Millions Russians died. Devastating their economy. Since the 1990’s the Russian administration has released 150Million people to self determination, freedom and democracy? The Russia (USSR) confederation population has halved. Now 150Million. Before 1990’s it was 300Million. Same as the US. Now 320Million.

      Putin has halved poverty in Russia. Now 15%. Trying to modernise and improve the Russian economy. The West are always applying sanctions trying to ruin the Russian economy. It does no one any good. No wonder Putin is such a popular leader with rating that Western politicians can only look on and envy. There is still too much bureaucracy in Russia. Trouble in some provinces. The Russian oligarchs who went to the West with £Billions of embezzled Russian money. Now bribing Western politicians. Including the Unionists. Johnston etc. Banks, Wigmore Gove etc Involved in total corruption. Of the like never invisaged before.

    317. Colin Alexander says:

      I don’t disagree about Scottish sovereignty.

      However, that begs the questions:

      If the SNP Scottish Govt are willing to fight for the Named Person Scheme all the way to the Supreme Court; willing to argue the Sewel Convention at the Supreme Court; willing to fight for Scotland Act devolution at the Supreme Court

      Why have they never made the Sovereignty of the people of Scotland legal argument at the Supreme Court?

      The Govt’s top legal team argued Sewel, not Scottish Sovereignty regarding Brexit.

      The Scot Govt avoids ALWAYS avoids this, even though the SNP have spoken of the Claim of Right.

      If Scotland’s sovereignty is fundamental, even more fundamental than democratic self-determination, why has the Scot Govt always shied away from defending Scottish Sovereignty in court?

    318. HandandShrimp says:

      I see the Herald and Mail are interchangeable…which one is the most proficient purveyor of fake news though?

      With Windrush, BiFab, a gang shooting in Glasgow, Syria and emotional speeches on antisemitism in Westminster the papers had a veritable smorgasbord of actual news to choose from.

      Stu will be pleased to note that I spotted that the Mail had the accusations of hypocrisy in “”. An early indication of lying afoot. 🙂

      I have had cowboys pitch double glazing to me. I dismissed them as cowboys. I am alarmed to hear that warning others about cowboy double glazing salesmen makes me a hypocrite. How does that work again?

    319. Smallaxe says:

      Abulhaq & Luigi,

      As most people on Wings already know, I am what people might call a Peacenick, The others below know me as a ‘Friend’. I would love to give you all a good laugh by telling you the names that I use to correspond with them but it would give the game away.
      Have a Peaceful day, my friends.

      Dear Piss Taker,
      As I am sure you are aware the beginning of 2018 has been a tough time for Britain First and it has recently got even harder as the company that processed our payments for us has decided to shut our account down.
      This has happened to our movement before and we overcame the problem as we will do this time.
      To combat this problem staff at Britain First HQ have decided to open a bank account so that any supporters that wish to donate can still do so.
      This is purely a temporary measure and we are working tirelessly to resolve this issue in a more permanent manner.
      Everything that has happened these past few months is clearly a concerted effort by the authorities to put an end to Britain First but they will not succeed.
      Britain First thrives on this sort of opposition so our message to those that oppose us is bring it on. We will not falter and we will not fail.
      Britain First will not fail because we have amazing supporters such as yourself that have backed us through thick and thin regardless of the odds being stacked against us.
      On behalf of our movement, I would like to thank you for your continued support through these tough times.
      Rest assured that if you choose to donate through the new method it is entirely secure and the donations have been flowing in thick and fast already.
      Please chip in whatever amount you can using the details below to enable us to continue our work for the future of our country.

      Yours sincerely,
      Britain First HQ

      Scotland in Union
      Hello Piss Taker,

      We have had an interesting few days in Scottish politics, which have highlighted the disarray at the heart of the SNP. Pete Wishart MP’s shock warning against indyref2 was in stark contradiction to fellow SNP MP Mhairi Black admitting she “hated” the SNP’s 2014 White Paper on Independence and hinted at something more radical.
      Read our new update on the latest developments.
      Over the next few weeks we also have events planned that you may wish to attend:
      Tuesday 24th April: Supporter event in St Andrews with Professor Ali Ansari (Professor in Modern History, with reference to Nationalism) – Click here for tickets.
      Thursday 26th April: Business briefing in Edinburgh with Jack Perry (Former Chief Executive of Scottish Enterprise and former Chairman of the Confederation of British Industry (CBI) Scotland) – Click here for tickets.
      Friday 4th May: Supporter meeting in Arbroath with Willie Rennie MSP (Scottish Liberal Democrat Leader) – Click here for tickets.
      There are many of our supporters who already donate towards our campaign resources, and we would like to thank you for your continued support – we couldn’t do what we do without you.
      If you are able to help us continue with our campaign, then please consider contributing from as little as £3 a month. Click here to donate and see other options, including one-off donations.

      Scotland in Union

    320. cearc says:

      Saudi troopsand armaments, official or otherwise, have been in Syria right from the start.

      I seem to recall that when violence first started to occur amongst the civil protest in Syria, it was credited to ‘the saudi mercenaries’.

    321. exile says:

      Smallaxe, thank you very much for the links, and please pass my good wishes to Nana. If I prayed then your “One World One People One Love” would be my prayer.

    322. Capella says:

      Hi Smallaxe – anyone finding a dead raptor can report it to the police, if necessary through their confidential hotline. If people do this these incidents become logged and when it comes to court the number of incidents against prosecutions becomes important for driving legislation.

      See Raptor Persecution UK site for up to date info:

    323. Smallaxe says:


      Thank you, my friend. I pray our children live to see a world at peace All people free. Gods not up there looking down he’s yellow, he’s white, he’s black he’s brown, he is ours and we are his, he’s all of us. He’s all that is.


    324. Smallaxe says:


      I have tried reporting but the local law enforcement turns a blind eye. However, I have my own way of dealing with the problem which I’d rather not divulge on an open forum.
      Rest assured, it works, my friend.

    325. yesindyref2 says:

      The Herald really does get it’s weather way wrong:

      “Wednesday could see the hottest day of the year so far – as temperatures may reach as high as 25C (77F) in the South East.”

      Looked up Berwick just over the border from as south-east as you can go, and it’s 13C right now, I doubt it’ll reach 25C.

      They need to get a new forecaster.

    326. Northern Rock says:

      Listened to the BBC weather forecast this morning and they seem to have a new “cunning plan”.

      They have decided to invent a new name for Scotland. England, N Ireland and Wales.

      They now call it “The Country”. This is happening with increased regularity.

      And they didn’t stop there. They also came up with a Capital City for this new mythical Country. And the name of this new mythical “Capital” is called London.

      The forecaster told me this morning that it will be colder in the “North of the Country”

      And also informed me that “The Capital” will be absolutely roasting.

      I have put a complaint into BBC Scotland, reminding them that the “North of the Country” is infact Scotland and that Edinburgh is the only “Capital City” that I recognise.

      Do you think this is BBC Paybck time because we got them to Un-Tilt their weather map???

      BBC summed up in one word:

      BASTARDS !!!

    327. sensibledave says:

      Morning All

      … some interesting debate above.

      My “take home” message from it all is that the majority above support the concept of Ms Sturgeon and the SNP avoid making a decision, taking a stand, be seen to have a view, provide leadership, express an opinion …. as a strategy designed to win Independence which is, literally, more important than absolutely anything else.

      For a party that is supposed to be governing and leading the whole of the Scottish population, whether they voted SNP or not, and whether they voted pro indy or not, that is a pretty depressing and cynical outcome.

    328. Robert Peffers says:

      @Cubby says: 18 April, 2018 at 12:44 am:

      “Robert Peffers your comment seems sound. Seems like it has been squirrelled away for more than 300 years.”

      The plain unvarnished truth, Cubby, is that James VI of Scotland was the result of an English/Scottish royal marriage of convenience many years before.

      I wonder how many Scots have ever heard of the Treaties of Greenwich?

      So historically England had been plotting to gain the Kingdom of Scotland by marriage and the intention had been to have a Union of the Crowns. The 1320 Declaration of Arbroath foiled that cunning plan and instead of an English King marrying a Scottish royal it was a Scottish King who inherited the English crown and Westminster was having none of it.

      Under English law James VI would have just added the crown of England, (already England having annexed both Wales & Ireland), to his Scottish Kingdom.

      So the cunning plan to absorb Scotland had backfired but Westminster’s way out was that as James VI was not a sovereign in Scotland then he couldn’t just absorb England, Wales and Ireland into the Scottish Kingdom and that began the English plot to force Scotland into the Treaty of Union of 1706/7.

      So the Westminster mindset was that the Treaty of Union was a Westminster takeover of Scotland but the legal facts are that it is not legally so. The Treaty of Union is a Treaty between two equally sovereign kingdoms but to this day the three country Kingdom of England still has a Sovereign monarch as the legal head of State and the truth is that Westminster is happy to use Magna Carta as applying also to Scotland but ignore the Declaration of Arbroath as not applicable under English law.

      It is also the their reason for establishing the Supreme Court as the highest court in the United Kingdom. Their attempts to enslave Scotland go back a very long way indeed.

    329. yesindyref2 says:

      I think you need your morning coffee or tea before posting …

    330. auld highlander says:

      Northern rock at 10.34

      Don’t believe or watch that bbc forecast anymore, the Norwegian YR forecasts on line seem to be more accurate so put it in your favourites and then there is no need to listen to their bollocks.

    331. Ken500 says:

      The Herald is now knowingly printing total lies from a known liar. An appalling mistake. Tanking even further. How low can they go.

      Going by voting patterns in Scotland the SNP is totally supported. 50% support. Nicola rating over all politicians. Unbelievable. Admired the world over. Alex and Co admired the world over. A world class Statesman. Now broadcasting around the world. With massive support.

      The Tory unionist Gov disintergrating. Westminster in chaos. Bigots, misogynists and racists. They are killing off their own supporters. The elderly. Vote Tory unionist to die younger. Elderly death up 117% in the rest of the UK. Deplorable behaviour.

    332. auld highlander says:

      Not gas poisoning….

      And look who is making big bucks out of the bombing

      My youngest call the news the WAR Channel. 24/7 WAR.

    333. Smallaxe says:

      auld highlander,

      A link to your information, my friend.

      Thank you.

    334. Flower of Scotland says:

      Robert Peffers@10.41am

      Another great piece of history added to all the others and in my notes now. I have wonderful references thanks to Robert!

      I use the information on social media and people share it. Well done Robert.

    335. HandandShrimp says:

      Anyone hear Fluffy on the radio this morning talking about his legal bid against Holyrood and Cardiff? I swear that man could talk for two days nonstop and still say nothing.

    336. Robin says:

      From the Herald

      “David Mundell confident Brexit deal can be reached”

      Please explain David LOL

    337. Macart says:

      So this is happening…

      But remember now. Partnership of equals, please stay, pooling and sharing, greatest union in the history of… etc. Better Together. Oh, and definitely not a power grab.

      Uh huh!

    338. Smallaxe says:

      Nicola Sturgeon
      14 hrs ·

      Devastated to hear the news that Scottish National Party (SNP) stalwart, Willie Douglas, has died. Willie was a campaigning legend in Glasgow and beyond, totally committed to the independence cause and, above all, a wonderful human being loved by all.
      RIP, my friend.

    339. Indy2 says:

      The Russians who were “poisoned” in england are making a miraculous god like recovery. Even the Policeman who was poisoned has had no after effects.

      And the english secret service have sent samples of the poison to different labs around the World for testing.

      Me being the cynic that I am would say that the samples that are being sent around the World are straight out of the stockpile held by the english at Porton Down.

      Never trust the english (establishment) OR their media.

    340. Robert Peffers says:

      @Colin Alexander says: 18 April, 2018 at 9:39 am:

      ” … why has the Scot Govt always shied away from defending Scottish Sovereignty in court?”

      Simple answer, Colin, is that you do not go to court to question what is, and has been since at least 1320, a basic tenet of Scots law. Now just as an example of that basic tenet here are long established facts that Westminster has never questioned – ask yourself why they have not.

      The people of Scotland, (and that includes those from anywhere with a main residence in Scotland), have always had right to roam anywhere in Scotland – except where it is dangerous for them to do so or where it invades other people of Scotland’s privacy. i.e. Railways, MOD property, active quarries and so on.

      They have that right to roam because as being legally sovereign they own Scotland. Another example being that no private persons or companies can legally clamp, tow away or otherwise incapacitate a vehicle parked on private land then demand payment to release that vehicle back to the owner. This is against the law of Scotland. There is no English style laws of trespass nor of blackmail under Scots law and thus demanding payment to release a clamped vehicle in Scotland is classed as, Demanding money with menaces. (coercion or extortion).

      There is also several established legal precedents in Scots law and Scots law relies heavily upon such precedents.

      Lastly there is article of Union number 19, that begins:-

      “THAT the Court of Session, or Colledge of Justice, do after the Union, and notwithstanding thereof, remain in all time coming within Scotland, as it is now constituted by the Laws of that Kingdom, and with the same Authority and Privileges as before the Union … “

      It is thus up to whoever disputes that Scots law is independent to prove their claim and not for a Scottish government to do so. You will note that in 311 years of the United Kingdom’s existence Westminster has studiously avoided doing so in any Scottish, English or international court. Now why do you imagine that would be, Colin?

    341. sensibledave says:

      yesindyref2 0:41 am

      You wrote “I think you need your morning coffee or tea before posting …”

      … already had 6! …. Sometimes I read the sort of stuff above and I just despair. How can it be that (some) intelligent people can be so “single issue” that the gassing of civilians should be “passed over” – lest expressing an opinion or taking a stand or demonstrating leadership might (though god knows how) “damage” the cause of Independence.

      Do you really think that is what the majority of Scots want from their government? Now, it could be that Ms Sturgeon, Ms May, Trump and Macron, when shown the evidence and they made up their minds – have been fooled by dodgy intelligence. If that is the case then we will review things again in the future.

      Personally, I don’t take any notice of what Trump might say on these matters, but Sturgeon, Macron and May? In a way, I am persuaded more based upon the words of Sturgeon and Macron.

      So, once our leaders tell us that the Syrian’s are gassing their own populace we each form a view of what should be done. Again the consensus above seems to be that it doesn’t matter what has/is happening, there is no point, no red line, no UN Charter being broken – that should result in us taking the action we did.

      Moreover, not content with that difference, we then quickly move on to the abuse. Those that want our government to intervene to try and stop the gassing are then portrayed as warmongering imperialist colonialists. You couldn’t make it up.

      In previous threads we have the usual suspects saying we shouldn’t have tried to save the Yazidis trapped on the mountain, shouldn’t have tried to save the Libyans trapped in Benghazi, or the Muslims in Bosnian. Now this.

      But what those people don’t ever do, is accept the body count against their policy of inaction. Letting people die that you can save – is not the righteous and pure path in my view.

      Is it any different to you and 10 others walking down the street together and seeing some soul being repeatedly kicked by another whilst they lay helpless on the floor – and then just carry on walking past – although you had the numbers, the means and the will to stop the bad thing happening. At the time of intervention, you would not know what lead to the kicking, you would not know whether, when presented with all of the facts after a full investigation, whether you might have any sympathy whatsoever for the victim of the kicking.

      But letting the kicking carry on whilst you do a full investigation and acquaint yourself with all of the background and build up simply means the victim gets hurt more. Sometimes it doesnt matter what the circumstances are, stopping somebody doing whatever they are doing is just the right thing to do and the other stuff will be whatever it will be in the fullness of time.

      Blowing up Chemical Storage facilities when you believe that those chemicals have been used to gas civilians is and appropriate and proportionate response in the circumstances.

    342. galamcennalath says:

      Some days I believe the UK’s Brexit strategy is to always try to kick the can down the road. At key points the EU says, ‘you must agree to X now’, so with no choice the Tories do. Then the can wheechs down the road again. With this plan they will soon have to agree the exit treaty on offer, get their transition, and the can goes further into the distance. As the end of transition in 2020 approaches they will accept a Trade Deal on offer. I believe this is a possible scenario because it preserves their Union.

      Other days, I think the plan is still to crash out with no deal. Any of the key events/dates could lead to this. They are waiting for the best excuse to allow them to blame Johnny Foreigner. Then the chaos and ‘state of emergency’ allows another way to deal with rebellious Scots!

      We approach another key moment ….

      ” The UK has rejected the EU’s interpretation of what the backstop means but has not yet suggested an alternative.

      On Monday, Ireland’s foreign minister warned that there will be “difficulties” in the Brexit process if there has not been substantial progress on the Irish border issue by June.”

      Ireland is a big problem for Project Brexit. Anything other than the status quo seriously upsets someone!

    343. HandandShrimp says:

      Blowing up Chemical Storage facilities when you believe that those chemicals have been used to gas civilians is and appropriate and proportionate response in the circumstances.

      Probably, but we have been down this road before and it is never quite what it seems.

    344. Smallaxe says:

      War is never appropriate!

      H.I.M. Haile Selassie I Speech to the United Nations (excerpt)
      New York City, NY October 4, 1963;

      “…until the philosophy which holds one race superior and another inferior is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned: That until there are no longer first-class and second-class citizens of any nation; That until the color of a man’s skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes; That until the basic human rights are equally guaranteed to all without regard to race; That until that day, the dream of lasting peace and world citizenship and the rule of international morality will remain but a fleeting illusion”

      The illusion must become a reality.

    345. Daisy Walker says:

      Todays essay over on is very interesting re the actual powers and influence Norway has within EFTA – turns out its quite substantial.

      @ galamcennalath My best guess, from reading the tea leaves.

      Top of the list is to avoid the new EU regs coming which clamp down on the tax havens.

      They are ambiguous about staying in the single market, but since the regulatory body for that is the European Court of Justice – which they would have to stay in, and this body would implement the new tax haven regs…. they can’t have it.

      They cannot afford to lose Scotland, we (specifically our oil and gas for the next 20 years and thereafter our renewables) are the cash cow.

      London Finances, high up on the list to get some kind of deal.

      Juicy morsels along the way, privatising Scotlands NHS (Englands has just about gone now), Scotland’s land and sea mass – strategic positioning.

      Brexshit and Bad. Now we must.

    346. Macart says:

      Sounds about right.

    347. gus1940 says:

      The Windrush scandal fills me with disgust and gives further proof that today’s Conservative Party/Government has gone from being Thatcher’s Nasty Party to become Mays’ Evil Party.

      I feel that it is unfair to call for Rudd to resign over this as all she is responsible fom as regards Windrush is the continuing implementation of a policy introduced by May when she was Home Secretary – it is May who should resign.

      While it is fine that the media are going full blast over Windrush and also the ongoing anti Corbyn Labour anti-semite business these 2 things are doing a wonderful job of distracting the nation from the nonsense and lies emanating from Skripal, Douha alleged gas attack and last weekend’s illegal bombing.

    348. manandboy says:


      Each day in the UK, we awake to a constant blizzard of propaganda which is designed to blind the population to the activities of this Tory Government of Theresa May both here and in Syria, as well as in our relations with Saudi Arabia, Israel, the US and Russia.

      Further, we cannot trust the UK Government to be truthful about their intentions for Scotland, Wales and NI, nor for the EU.

      The truth has been taken hostage, but without it we, the Electorate, are denied our democratic rights. Through this Tory Government, we are witnessing in real time the death of Democracy in Scotland, England, Wales and NI.

      Hidden in plain sight of a brainwashed population.

    349. manandboy says:

      When politicians everywhere have destroyed the trust of the people, perhaps the voice of the people’s religious leaders offers some hope of hearing the truth.

    350. Robert Peffers says:

      @sensibledave says: 18 April, 2018 at 10:38 am:

      “For a party that is supposed to be governing and leading the whole of the Scottish population, whether they voted SNP or not, and whether they voted pro indy or not, that is a pretty depressing and cynical outcome.”

      Absolute pish! As usual, SD.

      As a party that IS governing and leading the whole of the people of Scotland whether they voted pro indy or not, it is what is called, “Getting on with the day job”.

      However, the main thing that exposes your ever present British, (cough!), Patriotism,(cough!), is the obvious fact that you failed to properly understand the very obvious difference between the SNP, (and the last initial letter in that is, “Party”). while the Scottish government at Holyrood, that is led by the SNP, is The Government of Scotland.

      Ergo, such as Nicola Sturgeon must, perforce, wear two hats – one as the leader of a political party whose main priority is to end the United Kingdom. While the other as that of the leader of a devolved government, (that is a devolved part of the de facto parliament of England), and thus is legally part of the Westminster Parliament, (You do know what the term, “to devolve power”, means, don’t you)?

    351. Daisy Walker says:


      ‘Blowing up Chemical Storage facilities when you believe that those chemicals have been used to gas civilians is and appropriate and proportionate response in the circumstances.’

      Standard procedures for the correct dealing of an unexploded improvised explosive device (with no chemical or biological associations), is for a very large area surrounding it to be cordoned off and the area evacuated of all persons.

      There is no other ‘safe’ way to do so. Once clear of persons, and confirmed clear of persons, the MOD send in the robot, and unlike what you see in the films, the robot detonates the device. Bricks and mortar can then be rebuilt.

      This is what is considered best practice for items not contaminated with chemicals or biological substances.

      Consider then a chemical factory, not weapons, something domestic, say paint. Now consider all the health and safety procedures, such as you don’t store x near to y, temperature control, fire controls, exposure to elements, etc, etc.

      They do this for a reason.

      Now imagine the factory, moves location. They do this, in a structured, organised manner. Again, x does no go in the same lorry as y. Cause if x and y spill and mix, say in a car crash – boom, or maybe cough, or maybe your skin’ll fall off.

      Dropping a bomb on any kind of chemical factory is the very definition of how to make a bad situation 10 times worse.

      These wicked bad bastards would have just loved it, if there had actually been dangerous chemical warfare in the targets they bombed, it would have guaranteed a cloud of contamination which would have affected a 1 mile radius, or maybe just a 1/2 mile radius – how many homes in a 1/2 mile radius do you think.

      Its not stupidity, its deliberately wicked.

      The reason chemical weapons, which are mostly aerosol based, became discredited, was not out of the kindness of their hearts, but because, if the wind changed, you killed too many of your own troops. No such problem in Syria.

      Smalllaxe – thanks for the links, tell Nana we miss her and hope she’s good. I particularly enjoyed reading the Mockingbird – the article stating the recent bombings were targeted at the health service industry was shocking, but not really a surprise.

      Now we must.

    352. Phil Robertson says:

      I’d avoid placing too much credibility in the Fisk article.

      It contains the killing admission that the doctor was not present at the hospital. His “evidence” is pure hearsay.

    353. Ken500 says:

      The Herald is now knowingly printing total lies. Appalling behaviour. Leading to it’s own demise.

    354. TD says:

      Sensibledave at 11:52

      Unusually for you, you do seem to be trying to put forward a rational argument on the response to the alleged gassing of civilians in Syria. In that spirit, I will try to respond to your post.

      First, lets be clear – at this time there is no proof that any gassing took place. That could change and proof could be found, but at the moment we have some circumstantial evidence and a lot of suspicion.

      Second, if gassing did take place, we do not know who did it. Again, we might strongly suspect that it was the Syrian government and we might even be satisfied that on the balance of probabilities, the Syrian government are guilty. But we cannot say it is proven to the standard of a criminal court – i.e. beyond reasonable doubt.

      Third, even if we were satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that a gas attack happened and the Syrian government were responsible, is it appropriate for us to intervene militarily? Supposing a Western government were behaving badly – it does happen after all. Lets say, hypothetically of course, that a European country were to send state police into an autonomous region to violently prevent an independence referendum taking place, then disband the autonomous government and put the ministers in jail. Would it be OK at that point for, say, Russia to send a few missiles to hit the state police stations? I would say not. Supposing another country were to be harassing the children of immigrants from the 1940s and 1950s and threatening them with deportation. Would it then be appropriate for other countries to take military action against the offending country? I don’t think so.

      I am not trying to suggest that there is equivalence between gassing civilians and simply beating them up or deporting them. My point is that countries all round the world misbehave – some more than others. Why do you feel that it is incumbent on the UK to deal with that? Sweden did not fire a single missile into Syria. Neither did the Central African Republic. Micronesia is notable by its inaction on this. Why is the UK different? I think I can say with confidence that an independent Scotland would not have fired any missiles at Syria unless such action had been sanctioned by the UN. Whatever the failings of the UN, that is the correct approach.

    355. Iain mhor says:

      Continuity Bill Bingo:
      “The Government believes that”
      “It is the Government’s position that”
      “It is the Government’s view that”
      “The Government’s opinion is that”

      Find an exception to any of the above phrases in any matters pertaining to legal challenges, claims and decisions involving Scotland. From Sewell, to The Scotland Acts, Devolved Powers or even whether infamously, Scotland was “Extinguished” A wee treasure hunt challenge.
      There you go. If anyone is interested in how the latest legal challenge will conclude, it will conclude with one of the above phrases, much in the following manner:

      The Court understands, that based on The Government’s opinion that you are an arsehole and it’s prevailing view that you are an arsehole; you are, in fact, indeed an arsehole.
      “But I’m not an arsehole, where exactly in law does it say I’m an arsehole?”
      It doesn’t “Say” anywhere in law you are an arsehole, the Government’s position is that you are one.
      “Well my position is that I’m not an arsehole!”
      It does not appear to say anywhere in law that you are, in fact, not an arsehole, regardless of your stated position.
      In the absence of such evidence, we must be guided by the prevailing position of Government in previous cases, where it stated quite unequivocally, it’s belief in your arseholery. This Court therefore, cannot find other than that you are indeed an arsehole.
      “Wait, what?”
      Next case please.

    356. Smallaxe says:

      Daisy Walker,

      Thank you, Daisy, your commitment to our cause is inspirational.
      Lang may yer lum reek. Peace, Love and Independence, my friend.

    357. Effijy says:

      The average guy in the street seems to have been groomed by the media not to question their claims, read between the lines, or just try to look t what they say from another perspective.

      People are too busy at work, trying to budget,worrying about the future to drill into the horror that is world politics.

      On UK bombing of Syria, on behalf of America and Saudi Arabia.

      1, How do the bombers know where the secret stash of Chemicals are kept?

      2, Are they using the same intelligence that assure of the non existent weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?That Filed every way

      3, If there were dangerous chemicals there, what if the bombs just did enough to open their containers and release a major cloud of death that would float over thousands of innocent people

      4, What if these sites had accommodation within them and a Division of Russian Troops were wiped out?
      Does that then escalate to become a world war?

      5, Why has such action not been taken when non chemical bombs are dropped and they kill thousands. Are the West Saying that these bombs are OK but if they have Chemicals in them they are bad?

      6, If Syria did have Chemical Bombs and their stock was wiped out, wouldn’t they just ask their allies Russia to replace them from their Stock?

      7, Do you want a government who sees needles deaths every day in the UK due to NHS Funding Cuts, and who has Millions of UK Citizens dependent on Food Banks spending £10’s Millions on Bombs
      that land in a foreign country with an unknown effect?

      8, If the United Nations had a majority vote to sanction such an action then every country agreeing to the strike should be paying a proportionate sum and supplying military personnel. Why only 3?

      9, What would happen if all fighting was stopped and the Syrian’s held a fair and proper managed referendum? (Unlike the staged one in Scotland)
      I can tell you the leader would still be Bashar al-Assad.

      10, What do the war mongers do if a democratic election keeps the man in power that they desperately want to dispose of for their own end?

      11, Do they forgo all Human rights and Democracy?
      George Bush had plenty of personal reasons for wanting General Noriega out of the way.
      As CIA director and two-term vice-president to Ronald Reagan prior to 1988, Bush was implicated, by association, in often illegal, covert interventions in the civil wars in El Salvador and Nicaragua.

      12, When will the ordinary citizen waken up and remove the corrupt parties, politicians and their rich paymasters from ourlives?

    358. galamcennalath says:

      “Scottish Secretary David Mundell confident Brexit deal can be reached …. said discussions would “go to the wire” as the EU Withdrawal Bill reaches its final stages in the House of Lords.”

      Eh? There will be no mods to accommodate the devolved administrations at this late date. Anyways, those administrations now have their own legislation passed and ready. Mundell really should try to keep up with events concerning Scotland!

      Of course we know his Tory pals real plan. That is to have our legislation struck down and an unwanted power grab enforced from London.

      So why talk shite about a deal being reached with Holyrood (and Cardiff)?

    359. geeo says:


      Got to love labour, you mentioned tricky dickie said this…

      “We’ve been clear that we supported the Continuity Bill and its emergency passage through the Scottish Parliament because we think devolution itself is at stake”.

      Did he not say anything about one Labour Party Presiding Officer try to rule the CB as out of order in Scotland but fine in Wales ?

      Sums labour up really.

      Tories making huge mistake here, IF they follow through on it. However, like many things, it has not ACTUALLY been fully committed to yet.

      If they think this ‘threat’ will have the SG folding on Legislative Consent, boy have they mis-calculated badly.

      It is a short step to bringing up Sovereignty, and how this power grab breaches both the Devolution settlement and the Act and Treaties of Union itself by subjugating Scots Law.

      There are international courts and international bodies which would absolutely rule in our favour when presented with the appropriate evidence.

      Then their union is dead in the water.

    360. manandboy says:

      Getting into Organised Crime these days is very simple – join the Tory Party.

      Formerly identified with society’s underclass, organised crime is now firmly re-established among the Ruling Class.

      But be careful, otherwise you may get trampled underfoot.

    361. Robert Peffers says:

      @sensibledave says: 18 April, 2018 at 11:52 am:

      “… already had 6! ….”

      Aye! Richt!
      That’ll be where all that pish comes from then, SD.

      ” Sometimes I read the sort of stuff above and I just despair. How can it be that (some) intelligent people can be so “single issue” that the gassing of civilians should be “passed over” – lest expressing an opinion or taking a stand or demonstrating leadership might (though god knows how) “damage” the cause of Independence.”

      Yup! There’s the pish!

      First of all Nicola Sturgeon, before she dais anything else on such matters issued a public statements condemning both the alleged poisoning of the two Russians and the English policeman and another condemning the illegal wars.

      She really was being very clever by beginning her official statement about the alleged gas attacks with the phrase, (and I paraphrase), on evidence I have been given by Westminster – then agreeing with the Westminster press releases about the alleged gas attacks.

      So on the Westminster provided evidence she agrees with the Westminster actions. Thus she avoids the inevitable MSM shit-storm of blame and abuse for NOT agreeing with the Westminster actions while allowing herself the luxury of having Westminster as a scapegoat if/when the alleged gas attack is shown to be a false assumption.

      You really must needs pay more attention to how other than a Britnat patriot sees the World SD. Such attitudes tend to give a rather blinkered view of events and motives.

    362. Referendum1707 says:

      o/t just had a look at the long range weather forecast for Glasgow 5/5/18 and apparently it’s going to rain quite heavily. Could be wrong I suppose there could be weather events between now and then that could change it but I hate the way these things are so beholden to there being good weather.

      Of course it would help if it was adequately publicised. There’s probably tens of thousands of people in the greater Glasgow area who’d go rain or no rain but they won’t even know it’s on.

    363. TD says:

      Robert Peffers at12:59

      “She really was being very clever by beginning her official statement about the alleged gas attacks with the phrase, (and I paraphrase), on evidence I have been given by Westminster – then agreeing with the Westminster press releases about the alleged gas attacks.

      So on the Westminster provided evidence she agrees with the Westminster actions.”

      Just to be absolutely clear, Robert, Nicola Sturgeon did not and does not agree with the Westminster actions in response to the alleged gassing of civilians in Syria.

    364. Valerie says:

      Joanna Cherry has tweeted that she has secured an Urgent Question in HoC on the legal challenge to devolved legislatures.

      Should be starting at 1.30pm.

    365. schrodingers cat says:

      much that could be said about syria has already been said better than I could but i would add one comment.

      regardless of what is happening in syria, why is it that the uk think it is their job to bomb more brown people?

      the irish, swiss, noggies, cloggies, icelanders, belgians etc dont!

      I believe that this action is nothing more than a britnat willy waving exercise to assuage the terminally limp status of once important member.

      i dont support the bombing of syria or believe the howls of faux indignation and altruistic havers from the britnat establishment who we all know, dont give a shit about syria or anyone in it.

      SD, your arguments are well past their sell by dates

    366. Valerie says:

      Jeremy Wright, Attorney General giving Ken McIntosh top yoon billing in response to Joanna Cherry as to reason for going to Supreme Court on power grab.

      He of course downplays it all, as complex and needing clarity.

      Shadow Wales Secretary getting a shot now.

      Labour must be very proud.

    367. call me dave says:


      Watching this on parliament tv. The jist of it is.

      Rt Hon Jeremy Wright QC Attorney-General using the Holyrood presiding Officer’s statement (Ken Macintosh)of non-competence as a lever to challenge the Scottish Continuity Bill in the commons.

      Joanna Cherry asking why legal action by WM is being used to defeat the Bill in the courts where the democratic will of the SG had overwhelming support at Holyrood.

      Jeremy Wright QC says must establish ‘legal certainty’ cant have two versions of the law!

    368. starlaw says:

      Jeremy Wright QC needs to be informed that two versions of the law have been operational for 300 years.

    369. call me dave says:

      Jings! …so many Scots Tories helping us out at WM and their new hero Ken Macintosh whose view must be adhered to. 🙂

    370. W.J.Watt says:

      Seems to me that reading Craig Murrays comments, he hasnt forgiven the SNP for not selecting him to run as a candidate for Westminster and is liking the chance to beat them with a stick, Craig, stick to what you are good at, and that is attacking the Westminster establishment especially over foreign policy, leave the bitterness at the door of not being selected, at the time you werent the right candidate,

    371. Legerwood says:

      Syria and when it started.

      I found this short article about Syria from April 2011 on Newsnet. It was written way back at the time the street protests were taking place but violent mayhem had not taken hold and for that reason it is of interest because it provides a baseline of sorts to all that was to come after.

      As with most revolutions, or revolts, against repressive/long established regimes, they tend to become violent just as the regime starts to give in to some of the not unreasonable demands of the people.

      The regime in acceding to the demands of the people, and thus enhancing their chances of staying in power, does not suit certain sections of those within the protest movement who have their own agenda. At that point the protest movement is hijacked by those who basically want to get their snout in the trough, and violent revolution begins.

      Thus it was with Syria, with Libya with the French Revolution and any number of others over the centuries.

    372. call me dave says:

      Scots Tories determined that WM provide us a new shiny dog lead for future use. 🙁

      Anyone who has watched these proceeding over the recent years at WM must see the contempt that WM has for Scottish affairs that may lead to a new path and independent ways.

      Shurley we have the worlds most powerful devolved parliamentary?

    373. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      So let me get this straight.

      “Rt Hon Jeremy Wright QC Attorney-General using the Holyrood presiding Officer’s statement (Ken Macintosh)of non-competence as a lever to challenge the Scottish Continuity Bill in the commons.”

      So on the opinion of BritNat Labour in Scotland (and ex BBC Producer) useful idiot and holder of an History MA (Hons) from the University of Edinburgh in 1984.

      Obviously put up to this by UK Govt Legal Advisor who whispers in his ear from time to time during proceedings.


      Scotlands Lord Advocate, The Rt Hon. James Wolffe QC who has served as Lord Advocate since 1 June 2016. Was Dean of the Faculty of Advocates, the professional body of the Scottish bar.

      He also studied at the University of Edinburgh, graduating with an honours degree in law and a diploma in legal practice. He then went on to Balliol College, Oxford to take a Bachelor of civil law.

      Mmmmmm Tricky one that.

    374. gus1940 says:

      Excellent article by Robbie Dinwoodie in this week’s Scottish Review which not only tells us of his career at The Scotsman and Herald but illustrates the descent of the print media from its glorious days of actually reporting the truth to today’s shoestring propaganda operations.

    375. HandandShrimp says:

      I see that despite an open goal Jeremy was wrong footed by May with her telling him it was Labour that ditched the Windrush boarding cards.

      Of course if May is lying she is toast (again) but it seems improbable that she would be so badly briefed. If it is true then Labour are a bigger screw up than any of us imagined. You would think that someone would have briefed Jeremy as to who made that decision if that is the case.

      I do laugh when the SiU rabble get into their “scrap Holyrood, it is a Mickey Mouse Parliament and all the MSPs incompetent” shtick. Westminster is a freaking joke and to be fair Capitol Hill isn’t far behind. Holyrood looks pretty damn sane compared to others.

    376. Macart says:

      Mmmm… However this goes? Mr Macintosh really shouldn’t be allowed to forget his role in endangering Scotland’s parliament and the devolution settlement. That would be the settlement Labour never tire of telling folk they won, all on their own and with no help from anyone else. That one.

      For the policy gonks – We know you read this site and just so you’re aware that we’re very aware.

      What you’ve done today, you cannot undo. What people see and hear? That can’t be unseen or unheard.

    377. Flower of Scotland says:

      It was stated in MacCormick v The Lord Advocate that “”the principle of unlimited sovereignty of Parliament is a distinctively English principle and has no counterpart in Scottish constitutional law”. Scottish sovereignty was claimed by and for the people in the Declaration of Arbroath and cannot be ceded.

    378. Fred says:

      The brass-neck of Theresa May using the word “Morality” anent the bombing of Syria. Britain invented the aerial-bombing of civilians with gas in Iraq a century ago & is at present conducting a war by proxy against Iran by supplying the Saudi’s with enough bombs to take the Yemen back to the Stone-Age!

    379. sensibledave says:

      TD & Peffers

      …. it would appear that you two cannot agree on Ms Sturgeon’s position. Which I guess, is exactly what she hoped to achieve?

      Mr Peffers. You seem to delight in trying to convince me how brilliant Ms Sturgeon is – by demonstrating that her sole aim is to run a “Teflon” existence – where she never acts on what she believes .. she simply obfuscates to avoid any contact with qualities like responsibility, leadership and decision making.

      I am surprised that she is still held in such high regard. She has singularly failed in her main aim and is further away now from achieving it than ever she was. As First Minister, her government has achieved little of note and, when provided with the powers that she demanded, she doesn’t have the conviction to use them and swiftly moves to a position of why she can’t do the things she wanted to do (i.e. major changes to income tax policy).

      Looked at from outside, she has moved from being a conviction based, charismatic leader to becoming just another Teflon “time-server” that will pass on the mantle soon (with the inevitable “it is time for new and fresh ideas to take the party forward” type stuff.

      My own view is that she will probably go “all-in” in the next year or so and there will be indyref2 which (because it is just post Brexit) she knows she will lose and that will be her time to announce her exit. Her plan will be either glory (almost certainly not though) or a tearful, but gracious, stepping down” – and then reappear a few months later having landed a cushy job somewhere in some qango or consultancy or Russian TV channel, and dine off her reputation as a plucky trier for the rest of her days. She will regale us all with her stories of how she fought the establishment – without ever having actually taken a meaningful “position” on anything other than Scottish Independence.

      Maybe she like trains and will take over from Portillo?

    380. Sinky says:

      Politics Scotland milking the Daily Mail smear on Cambridge Analytica and Labour’s Neil Findlay acting as human shield to divert attention from Tories.

      From The Guardian

      Later a spokesperson acknowledged that the government had previously held three contracts with SCL Group but said that they had ended well before the current issues. Two of the contracts were undertaken under the last LABOUR government.

    381. heedtracker says:

      Maybe she like trains and will take over from Portillo?

      How comes I get the pre-mod and this dude’s fine?

    382. Referendum1707 says:

      Sarah 17th April 10.46pm

      “And another thing we need is our own billboard business so we can display what we want to show i.e. the truth about what is in the news, the Westminster system etc etc etc.”

      You’re bang on right about that Sarah but there’s no point banging on about it on here nothing will come of it. After all it is just a forum for expression and ideas relevant to Scottish independence (apart from the trolls and the troll feeders).

      What needs to happen is for a few like minded individuals who want ACTION to get together privately and plan out ways of doing just what you suggest. A while back it looked like inform-scotland was going to fill that role but apart from the brief bbc misreporting scotland billboard campaign they’ve done nothing except make pointless complaints to the bbc.

      The other day I read something somewhere about Scotland’s electorate being “mentally sedentary”. I don’t buy that, certainly not across the board anyway, but to whatever extent they are mentally sedentary is probably in direct proportion to the level of inactivity on the part of the SNP/SG and broader Yes movement as regards what has actually been done to educate the wider public about the facts of the case for Scottish independence.

      Why hasn’t the SNP or the Yes movement or just SOMEBODY started a process of informing the electorate about for example the McCrone Report? Or about the power grab? Or about Scotland’s true wealth? Or about innumerable other things that could be pointed out to people who still rely on msm for news. Billboards, advans, mass leafleting campaigns, there are various ways of doing it IF THE WILL IS THERE.

      Somehow somewhere someone needs to get that process kick started. And no we don’t have to wait for “a date” either. The case for Scottish independence remains as valid as ever brexit or no brexit, date or no date.

    383. Winifred Mccartney says:

      Mrs May’s concern for the children suffering due to use of chemical weapons only matched by her concern for children/families still homeless or in temp accommodation since Grenfell fire.

    384. Proud Cybernat says:

      BREAKING from Pravda Quay
      with Union Jackie Kim Ono:

    385. Stravaiger says:

      @breeks 07:35, @golfnut 08:08
      Indeed, so since Scottish sovereignty is ‘loaned’ as it were to our elected representatives in Westminster, a majority of those supporting independence should be, no, IS sufficient to declare independence. The fact that we wish a majority in a referendum is a mere nicety.

    386. Cubby says:

      Politics Scotland this afternoon. Brewer says if the people of Scotland do not like chlorinated chicken in a future trade deal then they can vote out the UK gov. What a total plonker.

      When and how can the Scottish people ever vote out a UK gov.

      Politics Scotland the British Nationalist chat show. Using taxpayers money to produce propaganda.

    387. jfngw says:

      Checked the third reading vote for 2014 immigration act. I could not find any Labour MP’s voting for it, a few voted against, most abstained (Labour default position it would seem). All Cons & Libdems (a few of them from Scottish seats) except 1 DUP supporting it.

      May trying to deflect at PMQ’s, as Home Secretary she should have known these records had been deleted and taken steps in the legislation to protect these Windrush people. So either malicious or incompetent, the choice is yours.

    388. Daisy Walker says:


      Re Billboards. I did some research into this, £2000 – £3000 was my estimate for a 6 week hire, not including the art design. For someone like me who is not involved in this type of business, months of a steep learning curve. e.g. Do you need to take out insurance in case you defame someone?

      In the mean time, Every Car is a Billboard. Indyposterboy has some brilliant examples, so if you have a printer at home, and a car in the driveway. What you waiting for.

      Now for public areas, posters (even small ones) are a bit cumbersome, and it takes a bit of bravado to go out and stick on lampposts etc, not to mention, how to attach them…

      Which is where bespoke barrier tape comes in. Think Police tape at a crime scene. Exactly the same, but with your own design. 75mm, by 250 m a roll. under £20 a roll (but min of 12 roll order). Now you can cover some ground, and even use it as car bumper stickers.

      Several people I’ve spoken to who are more experienced about this thing, have told me they think the Barrier Tape is a goer. So, I’ve ordered up 2 designs. Should get them in a couple of weeks and we’ll see.

      So, if we can’t (as yet) do Billboards, are there those among us with front facing gardens, and would they allow a mini billboard to go up there. If so, lets get it done. If just one person in each town does this, so will someone else.

      Remember Margo said, if we can change just one persons vote to YES, we’re home dry.

      The establishment have got to use the BBC, the msn, and expensive companies both to suppress the real info and spread lies.

      We just have to get the truth out there, and doing so face to face has always been the optimum method for doing so. Lets turn our apparent weakness into an advantage.

      One person, one bit of info, one conversation and one bit of decency at a time.

      Yes we can. Now we must.

    389. Breeks says:

      Speak to the IndyRef2 guys about Billboards. They successfully got the BBC protests up on billboards.

      As I recall, there were issues with some Billboard Company’s not happy to take controversial subjects, but I forget whether that was the Indy Scotland theme or slagging off the BBC theme which was the problem.

      Put out another shout for a few Cairnstoons to be put up in a billboard campaign too. Keep talking about it but it never happens.

    390. Liz g says:

      Daisy Walker @ 3.38
      That’s a great idea about the tape,I’ll certainly be taking the information to my local Yes group.
      Thank you,you clever wummin….
      And funnily enough because our local council has banned posters on its property
      I was going to suggest that we get a garden registry together!
      A list of people who will be happy to have a Yes sign put up
      something along the lines of the kind Estate agents use.
      Mibbi we should try for a National one?

    391. Socrates MacSporran says:

      sensible dave @ 2.46pm

      Son, since you are quite clearly a total waste of space an robbing someone far-more deserving of oxygen, I normally by-pass your slaverings.

      However, even by your low standards, your 2.46pm post today was weapons grade shite.

      Even if Nicola Sturgeon was only half as bright and competent as she is, she would still be ten times better than that failed Stepford Wife currently occupying the office of Prime Minister and First Lord of the Treasury down at Westminster.

      Gonnae no dae that and gie’s peace.

    392. thepnr sorryi have been out and have just read your comment about me you say my home is England may I remind you home is where the heart is and mine never has or ever will leave Scotland as for me being 80 years old does that somehow bar me from having a valid opinion or something??? It is 80 years of experience talking and how do you or anyone else Know I will not be back in Scotland in time for ref.,2 and qualify to vote ??? So I will keep stating my opinions no one will ever stop me if you don’t like my opinions fair enough but like you and everyone else on here I do have a right to have them

    393. Cubby says:

      Sensibledave = colin Alexander = Boring paid to troll British Nationalist.

    394. Daisy Walker @ 3.38

      “Every Car is a Billboard.” Exactly,that’s it.

    395. TD says:

      Sensibledave at 2:46 p.m.

      I note that you seek to deflect from the main point by highlighting a difference of opinion between two posters. What is the answer to the question? In case you have forgotten here it is again:

      “My point is that countries all round the world misbehave – some more than others. Why do you feel that it is incumbent on the UK to deal with that? Sweden did not fire a single missile into Syria. Neither did the Central African Republic. Micronesia is notable by its inaction on this. Why is the UK different?”

    396. Daisy Walker says:

      Re Billboards again

      T Shirts,

      Sweatshirts (more likely for our weather)

      Not with a useless ‘stronger for Scotland’ but with one of Cairns Cartoons on it.

      I’d happily order up and wear them. Chris, can this be done, please.

      How cool would that be. I’m ready for my close up Mr Mundell.

    397. Referendum1707 says:

      Daisy Walker,

      Not sure how that police tape idea would work, and I for one don’t have a car or a front garden, also yes billboards could be problematic so in as far as that goes I think advans might be better if a choice had to be made, also cheaper and probably seen by more people as obviously they’re mobile and move around in urban areas.

      Also I think a professionally organised and co-ordinated mass leafleting campaign carried out in towns and cities up and down the country, with a variety of leaflets/flyers for different areas and with a set of different verifiable quotes, statements and images giving information about not only the advantages of an independent Scotland (in which sometimes you wouldn’t even have to mention independence or the SNP, just use logic to draw the reader to the inevitable conclusion that Scotland would undoubtedly be better off independent) and also verifiable quotes and statements from prominent britnats which show their contempt for Scotland and the Scottish people.

      It’s a numbers game, many would go to people who don’t need convinced, others would go to unionists who’d just bin them immediately, it’s the remainder, the undecideds, the soft no’s but who have an open enough mind to be prepared to take an objective look at the facts that will make the difference between life or literally death for Scotland. If enough leaflets/flyers are distributed, then enough of these soft no’s and undecideds will see them. There’s also no doubt that one million updated WBB’s could make a big difference if distributed properly and professionally.

    398. Daisy Walker says:

      Re Chris Cairns T Shirt campaign

      I want the one with John Bull running all the oil down the drain and Hamish fizzing in the background.

      What’s your favourite.

    399. Archbishop of Dork says:

      Theresa May is using a mackintosh as cover against the reign of the sovereign Scottish people.

      I’ll get me (non-mackintosh) coat.

    400. Daisy Walker says:

      Re Billboards

      Instead of Bags for Life

      Lets have

      Bags for YES, with a Chris Cairns Cartoon on the other side.

      A picture speaks a thousand words, so there you are, in the que at the checkout with your bag, and someone says I love that cartoon, where did you get it, its so true, and someone else pipes up, yes and did you know about the McCrone Report…

      Chris, please, please, can we, pretty please. Gowan, ye know ye want tae, say YES.

    401. sensibledave says:

      Socrates MacSporran 3:54 pm
      sensible dave @ 2.46pm

      You wrote “Even if Nicola Sturgeon was only half as bright and competent as she is, she would still be ten times better than that failed Stepford Wife currently occupying the office of Prime Minister and First Lord of the Treasury down at Westminster.

      Gonnae no dae that and gie’s peace.”

      ….. Firstly, I think something went wrong with your keyboard at the end there …. so I couldn’t quite make out what you were struggling to write.

      With respect to your main sentiment, d’ya fancy a wee wager? A sportsman’s bet?

      Within 24 months ….

      1) Ms Sturgeon will no longer be the SNP leader
      2) Even if indyref2 has occurred (which I am still highly doubtful of) Scotland will have voted, again, to remain part of the UK
      3) Ms Sturgeon will be fronting some other non-party political quango, consultancy or telly show and raking in the dosh big time.

      … pretty much the same as Mr Salmond really. Although, to be fair, unlike Ms Sturgeon, no one could accuse Mr Salmond of not expressing an opinion.

      I say yes to all of the above. Are we on?

    402. Thepnr something else just occurred to me The Ref., Stu., lives in Bath in England and does not have a vote in Scotland so should stop having a site about Scotland’s independence and stop posting on it ??? I don’t think so

    403. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Like the T-Shirt ideas @Daisy Walker says: at 4:16 pm

      Agree some of Cairnstoons would work.

      I also think some of Colin Dunn’s “Are you Yes yet?” ones would also be highly effective, think the pensions one (in the link below) for example. has some crackers for car window, garden fence or A5 door to door leafleting.

    404. Bob Mack says:

      When England wants Scotland to lead them ,you can bet your life savings you are in a minefield!!

    405. schrodingers cat says:

      Daisy Walker

      these are the cheapest i could find
      £2.50 each

      these are a4 iron on sheets, simply print out your design and iron on. (about £1 a sheet)

      I printed 10 yesnef logos per a4 sheet and we sold them to yesnef activists at £5 a go.

      this raised over £100 for our group. who needs a yes scotland website, raise the money yourself.

      btw, £1500 pays the postman to deliver 1 x leaflet to your entire constituency

    406. Breeks says:

      Stravaiger says: 3:09…

      As far as I can see that’s a Yes.

      The problem is it’s a Cold Turkey kind of yes for Unionists, and the shock of waking up to an Independent Sovereign Scotland would provoke civil disorder and potential for violent backlash on our streets. It’s not inconceivable you could declare Independence just to see it disputed and contested with a majority against it. That would be madness, but unfortunately madness is cap that looks like a good fit for lots of Unionists to wear.

      You could risk your sovereignty not being recognised, but more likely, you’d see your sovereignty disputed, maybe partial recognition, some countries would recognise you, others might not, and a great deal of Constitutional activity would be hampered by legal claim and counter claim in the Courts.

      The SNP strategy, says me as a non SNP member, is to secure overwhelming acceptance of Independence in principle, thereby taking along the population by popular agreement towards Independence, rather than presenting Independence as a provocative done deal while pro and anti Independence viewpoints are neck and neck in the polls.

      But, the nitty gritty business of Sovereignty is an absolute condition. Set all the niceties and democratic principles to one side, and the bottom line is you are not made sovereign according to any democratic mandate. Your Sovereignty is a black and white binary issue determined by its Constitutional legitimacy in law, and that legitimacy being formally recognised by the international Community.

      There might very well be an Emergency Sovereignty button under Nicola Sturgeon’s desk, but it’s a last resort option because our sovereign liberation is best kept a peaceful affair achieved by consensus rather than duress.

      However, even where we can all recognise that’s a good Plan A to secure independence by popular majority, and keep of Sovereignty button under the desk in case of emergency… I don’t have a problem with that, I see the sense in it, but for all that good sense, I also see no harm in us being much more forward and forthright that Scotland is Sovereign Nation, and that the Union only exists until we decide it doesn’t. I see no down side to the Scottish electorate becoming a lot more savvy about sovereignty than many currently are. It would do no harm at all to make sure the general population of England was a lot more clued up on the subject too.

      Even Unionists, at least those Unionists who do actually think, are likely to be more resigned to Independence if they recognise it has legal and proper credentials, even if they don’t especially like it.

      Even the likes of Mundell, suggesting Scotland was extinguished after the Union doesn’t really believe what he’s saying. Their heart isn’t in it because they know damned well it isn’t true. It’s your BritNat Muppet in a Rangers Union Jack who is too thick to be reasoned with who will need more careful handling.

    407. Tatu3 says:

      Would Phantom Power films,for example, be allowed to be shown in cinemas before big named movies? How costly would that be? Anyone know?

    408. schrodingers cat says:

      Daisy Walker says:

      Re Chris Cairns T Shirt campaign
      i would ask him for permission 1st.

      on a more serious note, for all those champing at the bit to start campaigning for indyref2, 1st thing on the agenda should be to raise funds for your local yes group. you can start now

    409. Capella says:

      @ Tatu3 – in 2014 there was an outcry after cinemas started showing Better Together adverts. The cinema chains then decided to ban all political adverts so I doubt they will agree to it next time.

    410. Greannach says:

      Is Labour MSP Neil Findlay the reincarnation of Norman Wisdom?

    411. sensibledave says:

      TD 4:07 pm

      You wrote “My point is that countries all round the world misbehave – some more than others. Why do you feel that it is incumbent on the UK to deal with that? Sweden did not fire a single missile into Syria. Neither did the Central African Republic. Micronesia is notable by its inaction on this. Why is the UK different?”

      Hmmmm. Not sure that yours is a serious question – but I will persevere nevertheless.

      I know many here on Wings struggle with this, but generally speaking “western style” democracies are usually a force for good. Highly respected International organisations like NATO and the UN need to be able to call upon members to carry out the “will” of the organisation. Whilst Micronesia is a lovely place an’ all, it is unlikely that say, Russia, might think twice about a potential threat of retaliation from Micronesia or, as you suggested, The Central Africa Republic.

      As an example, although NATO has 29 country members, different members contribute different things. All want solidarity and the protection of the others but the likes of the USA, UK, France provide the nuclear deterrent as well as the majority of the conventional fighting ability. Others may provide bases to protect say the Eastern flank of NATO. The “this is our line, do not cross it” line. The “Mess with Latvia, and you will have to deal with the rest of us too” policy.

      For the sake of clarity, it that policy that means that Russia has the confidence to annex Crimea, invade Ukraine …. but not feel the same degre of aggression or be emboldened to annex any of the Baltic state NATO members such as Latvia, Lithuania, etc.

      So, in summary, there might be a vote on some military action to be taken by the UN – but the UN will look to the USA, UK, France etc, to provide the teeth for the policy … or the policy could not be implemented.

      At the risk of you mis-interpreting this, the likes of the USA, UK and France are relied upon, by other countries and International organisations to have strength and resolve and for its armed forces to have the skill commitment and bravery to stand up to those that “misbehave” and support those that need help.

      It doesn’t always work and the “whataboutery” (Yemen for instance) examples show flaws. However, falling short in one theater does not prohibit doing the right thing in another.

      Making mistakes in Iraq in the past, shouldn’t mean that we leave Yazidis to die at the hands of murderous ISIS fighters in Iraq. Voting not to intervene in 2013 in Syria does not prohibit taking our a chemical storage depot in 2018.

      The USA has Cruise Missiles, France and the UK have experienced fighter bomber forces. Micronesia do not.

    412. ScottieDog says:

      @Daisy Walker
      I think you can fit small digital billboards to cars. So you can configure to different messages regularly. Not sure on cost

    413. gus1940 says:

      Forget Billboards – waste of money – as others above say ‘Every Car A Billboard’.

      What can be better than the captive audience of somebody sitting behind you at the lights with little option other to take in what your rear window says. Additionally if you have stickers/posters on your windscreen they are visible and legible in rear view mirrors when you are ahead of captive drivers-at lights.

      Billboards are only likely to be noticed by a few and leaflets can be binned without being read.

      Make sure that all street stalls and any other events are well stocked with car stickers and the additional items below..

      In addition, beermats and Credit Card size information cards to be scattered in buses, trains, shops and pubs. All relatively cheap caompared with the cost of billboards.

    414. geeo says:


      I will take your bet, on 2 conditions.

      1. It is £500. (Seeing you are a yoon ‘monkey’)

      2. You do not post once from this day until that day the bet is decided ?

      If you post once, the bet is lost by you, and you become liable to pay it.

      Well ?

      Betting or not ?

      Or all talk ?

    415. Bob Mack says:

      Dave,are you actually that dim. Our “allies” the Saudis, support and finance ISIS, or Daesh if you prefer. Why not bomb them for funding the terrorists? Oil ?

    416. schrodingers cat says:


      ayemail will crowd fund another 10,000 flags and produce more campaign boxes for the yes groups at £20 a pop

      you can see online the contents but sticky front and back yes disks for car bumper and window are part of the campaign box

    417. geeo says:

      Tories suffer customs union Brexit defeat

      Thats gonna leave a mark.

    418. Dr Jim says:

      “Western style” democracies are usually a force for good

      Ha ha ha hah ha hah ho ho hee hee hee hee

      Aye do a poll of the indigenous peoples of the entire world on that one, including Scots, the real ones that is

      For God sake where do these people come from, do they grow this lot in a jar then cut off their mental age at 9 then send them out into the world loose on the Internet

    419. Fireproofjim says:

      House of Lords votes heavily in favour of staying in a Customs Union with the EU.
      Another spanner in Theresa May’s crazy works.

    420. Brian McHugh says:

      What we really need is a 24hour news channel on a par with the BBC, RT and Sky.

    421. Bob Mack says:

      @Dr Jim,

      You may well be right, but no doubt Dave was taught at school that the Empire had to be cruel to be kind.

    422. Wullie says:

      If you have a car or other vehicle would vehicle roof advertising be of any use for the yes movement.

    423. Northern Rock says:

      Re: Irish Border Conundrum,

      Treeza has to sign off on some kind of deal by October. And I just can’t see what her answer to the Irish border Conundrum is going to be.

      Will the DUP accept and sell to the BritNat N Irish Unionists that they will be staying in a Customs Union with the South.???

      I just can’t see the Orange Order Brigade accepting that. They have it bred into them that no matter what, they are not going to be treated any differently to anyone else within the UK.

      I have thought long and hard about the Irish Border problem, and it is just full of contradictions. No matter what idea you come up with, there seems to be something else which cancels that idea out.

      Over to the deep thinkers to solve this one.

    424. Colin Alexander says:

      Robert Peffers

      You go to court to uphold and defend your rights if you believe they are being infringed.

      Re Brexit,The SNP went to court to argue the toss about Westminster’s Scotland Act devolution Sewel Convention rather than base the case on failure to respect Scottish Sovereignty and/ or Scottish democracy.

      I just wondered how that is, if you are sure it’s a dead cert constitutionally.

    425. jfngw says:

      @Brian McHugh

      Little point, it would be regulated by OFCOM. If you don’t follow the WM agenda on ‘neutrality’ then you will get the RT treatment. They would probably appoint a Mr Leask as the Scottish regulator.

    426. Indy2 says:

      Peers inflict big defeat on Government over flagship Brexit bill.

      The Government has suffered a heavy defeat in the House of Lords over its policy of leaving the EU’s customs union.

      Peers voted in favour of the amendment to the flagship EU Withdrawal Bill by 348 votes to 225, a majority of 123.

      It seeks to keep open the option of Britain staying in a form of customs union with the EU, something Prime Minister Theresa May is against.

      The PM has pledged that Britain will no longer be a member of the bloc’s customs union and single market after Brexit.

      She argues this will allow the Government to control immigration and give it more freedom when it comes to negotiating free trade deals with other nations.

      Sky’s Political Editor Faisal Islam said the size of the defeat is “bad news” for the Government and suggests there will be many more such amendments when the bill returns to the Commons next month.

      Labour’s Sir Keir Starmer hailed the passage of the cross-party amendment as an “important step forward”.

      The shadow Brexit secretary said: “Labour has long championed the benefits of a customs union as the only viable way to protect jobs, support manufacturing and help avoid a hard border in Northern Ireland after we leave the EU.

      “Theresa May must now listen to the growing chorus of voices who are urging her to drop her red line on a customs union and rethink her approach.”

      The Lib Dems’ leader in the Lords, Lord Newby, described it as a “hugely significant” moment.

      “The House of Lords has come together to show the Government that remaining in a customs union is key to the UK’s future prosperity,” he said outside the chamber.

      “Securing this win on a cross-party basis rams home how out of touch the Government have been on this issue and that they drastically need to change tack from the destructive hard Brexit they are pursuing.”

    427. Effijy says:

      I see a wee snipet on the news regarding Tory Minister Jeremy Hunt.
      He hasn’t declared all his interests and earnings to Parliament?

      Don’t worry though, the media back up their boy by explaining how it’s
      Just a wee administration problem???

      So England wants an incompetent Health Minister and Potential participant
      In something so complex and intricate as Brexit even though he can’t remember
      His part time job or how much he earns in a year???

      Where is Colin Alexander when you need him?
      You want to swap our successful Health Minster
      For a corrupt Tory Crook?

    428. Robin says:

      Keep them coming Rev,,excellent stuff

    429. Stravaiger says:

      @breeks, 16:44
      Oh absolutely. I was simply pointing out the logical conclusion drawn from the previous posts. Thatcher was right and the non-Scottish part of Westminster can do whatever it likes to try to stop independence but at the end of the day it’s the Scots MPs leaving Westminster following the will of the Scottish electorate that ends the Union.

    430. TD says:

      Sensibledave at 5:04 p.m

      So, if I can summarise your position it amounts to “might is right”. The USA, UK and France have the military might to meddle in other countries, so that makes it right to do so. That is the logic (if we can call it that) of your argument.

      I propose a different approach. If a country thinks military intervention in another country is required, the case is put to the UN. If the UN is persuaded, then the UN authorises one or more countries to take action. The only exception to this being if a country is attacked, in which case they have should have the right to defend themselves without needing UN authority.

      Oh wait a minute – that is the legal position now! So as a matter of international law, the UK (and the USA and France) were acting unlawfully when they attacked Syria, but if Syria were now to attack the RAF base in Cyprus, that would be legal as an act of self defence.

      There is an unbelievable arrogance inherent in the belief that somehow we in the West should get to decide these matters on our own. You assert that Western countries are a force for good. I think that is highly debateable at least. “Western-style democracies” have the capability to do a lot of good in the world, but that does not mean that they always actually do good. I could reel off a long list of harmful interventions by these “Western-style democracies” but will restrict myself to just a few:


      These are military interventions. In addition there is the predatory tariff regime of the EU which prevents the developing world from competing on a level playing field. And of course there is the whole imperial thing and genocide in North America, South America, Australia and New Zealand. I’m sorry, but your assertion that western countries are a force for good in the world is highly questionable at best. And even if you believe they are, it’s a hell of a leap to that giving the West the right to shoot up countries they don’t like.

      When Scotland is independent, I truly hope that we are a force for good in the world. I believe we will be. But I do not believe that we will use military means to get what we want. The Scotland that I hope to live in will play a full part on the international stage and act within the law. Our military will be a truly defensive force and will only intervene in another country’s affairs if called upon by the UN to do so.

    431. Daisy Walker says:

      Re Billboards –

      I don’t think they are a waste of time, I just think they are expensive and difficult for non experts to get up and running in the short term.

      If someone is determined to do them and can afford to do so, fantastic. Armatage Trailers in Yorkshire advertise an 8′ x 6′ one for about £1500, the posters then cost about £250 = £50 for fittings x 2 per side.

      And you still have to get the art work commissioned and paid for. And willing volunteers with towbars to haul them around.

      But its not undoable.

      It would be brilliant if we had some. But in the mean time.

      In the mean time, A home made Billboard in a garden can be put up for around £20. And posters run off on home printers or local printers for a fraction of the cost.

      Cheerie to all.

    432. Rock says:

      Ken500 says:
      17 April, 2018 at 11:28 pm

      “The SNP have gained Scotland £Billions with good governance. Unlike some low life toe rags. That is why they get such amazing support. 50%.”

      More fake news.

      SNP support fell to 37% at the last election with a loss of half a million votes.

    433. Black Joan says:

      Ross Thomson there, having an ill-judged laugh:

      This war business is all a big joke for Tories, you know.

    434. Southern Rock says:

      Thanks to the Rev and Wings.

      An Island of sanity in a sea of madness.

    435. dakk says:

      @ SD said,

      ‘So, in summary, there might be a vote on some military action to be taken by the UN –’

      You warmongering pricks don’t even bother waiting for a vote now.

      The only way you might ever get it would be if you or yours were were ever caught in some blowback on London Bridge or suchlike.

      Even then you’re maybe too far gone with delusion.

      Enormous vaginal passage of a man.

    436. Colin Alexander says:

      Noo, just because CA dropped the SNP in the keech by grassing them up abouttheir secret meetings. Don’t blame me for that.

      CA is Cambridge Analytica, no Colin Alexander.

      I don’t want to meet any SNP consultants.

      Sounds too much like Blairism to me.

    437. Rock says:

      Indy2 says:
      18 April, 2018 at 11:35 am

      “Never trust the english (establishment) OR their media.”

      The United English and Scottish Establishments have been causing genocides, massacres, civil wars, looting and destruction throughout the world for more than 300 years.

      It would never have happened if the parcel of rogues had not sold Scotland for English gold.

      Sadly, it is not going to end any time soon.

      The most disgraceful political thing that has happened to Scotland since it was sold 311 years ago has been the Scottish First Minister from an independence supporting party standing “shoulder to shoulder” with Saint Theresa and the “ghastly” Boris Johnson as they declared war on Russia after a false flag operation.

      Even the lame duck official UK opposition leader Corbyn had the guts to question the “evidence” without being afraid of being “crucified”.

      Anyone who thinks that the gutless Establishment lawyer Nicola will lead Scotland to independence is completely deluded, in my humble opinion.

      I don’t for one moment doubt her commitment to the independence cause, but Scotland will not get independence from England in a million years by playing according to Westminster rules.

    438. Northern Rock says:

      If the final Brexit deal has to be rubber stamped by October, then hopefully Nicola will name Spring/Autumn 2019 as the date for IndyRef2.

      It would mean we are still under the EU Jurisdiction and make it easier to continue as a new Nation State after our victory in IndyRef2.

    439. Indy2 says:

      I think after our glorious victory in IndyRef2, we should work in conjunction with the SNP Council in Glasgow to have a statue of the Rev Stu Campbell erected in George Sq in Glasgow.

      And pull down EVERY statue in Glasgow and Scotland,,that is a reminder of our Colonial past.

      We have enough of our own Scottish heroes to fill their spaces.

    440. HandandShrimp says:

      Noo, just because CA dropped the SNP in the keech by grassing them up abouttheir secret meetings. Don’t blame me for that.

      The pitch was from CA to the SNP just like a double glazing salesman might pitch to get your business. If you like what you see you might their wares. The SNP were advised by the consultant not to bother with CA because he thought they were cowboys. Sound advice by the sounds of it. The question is not who did they pitch to, I’m guessing they pitched to everybody, but rather who bought their services. Were any of these pitches “secret” in the first instance? The work afterwards might have been confidential but the initial “these are our services” sales talk? Wouldn’t have thought they were any more secret than any business meeting.

      Those that didn’t buy the services look like the sensible ones in light of what has transpired…in particular in relation to Brexit.

    441. Colin Alexander says:

      I thought CA helped the EU Leave campaign and Leave won. How does that make them cowboys?

      “The pitch was from CA to the SNP just like a double glazing salesman might pitch to get your business”.

      That may well be true but, until the SNP publish information to support their version of events, it allows doubts that anti-SNP campaigners can use to discredit the SNP.

    442. Southern Rock says:

      Negotiations between the UK, Scottish and Welsh governments over key Brexit legislation are “reaching the end game”, Scotland’s first minister has told MSPs.

      Nicola Sturgeon said ministers have “days rather than weeks” to reach a deal on the EU Withdrawal Bill, which has entered its final stages in the House of Lords.

      Scottish secretary David Mundell has also said the talks would “go to the wire”.

      The UK government remains locked in a dispute with the Scottish and Welsh administrations over the return of devolved powers from Brussels once Britain leaves the EU.

      Ministers in both Cardiff and Edinburgh have repeatedly branded the legislation a “power grab” which threatens devolution and have refused to recommend consent unless it is amended.

      Meanwhile, the UK government has launched a legal challenge to alternative Brexit bills passed by the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly.

      Speaking at an evidence session with Holyrood’s committee conveners, Ms Sturgeon said the referral to the Supreme Court was “deeply regrettable”.

      “The Westminster government had a decision to make, whether to respect the decision the Scottish Parliament arrived at or not to respect it, and unfortunately they opted not to and referred to the Supreme Court,” she said.

      She added that the decision had a “bearing on the spirit of the negotiations” on the EU Withdrawal Bill, with time running out to reach an agreement.

      “I think it’s fair to say we are reaching the end game of this,” she said.

      “We know the stage the withdrawal bill is at in terms of being at the report stage in the Lords, so we will probably over the next couple of weeks need to see this come to an agreement or not.

      “We are talking now more like days rather than weeks.”

      She added: “I genuinely hope we can reach agreement but inevitably when there is pretty fundamental issues of principles involved, the bar for agreement is not always easy to overcome.”

      Speaking to BBC Radio Scotland, Mr Mundell said: “I’m afraid the discussions and negotiations will go right up to the wire, but I am confident that we can reach an agreement.”

      He added: “The court referral is about seeking clarity, seeking certainty when different views have been expressed.”

      He was unable to confirm the estimated cost of the legal challenge, adding: “We’re only at the very start of the legal process.

      “It costs £200 to refer the case to the court. Obviously, if the case became involved in a protracted discussion there is greater cost.

      “It’s very important that when you see two different views expressed about a piece of legislation, that actually somebody gives a definitive view, is it competent or is it not.”

    443. Sarah says:

      @Referendum 1707: I knew I just had to ask and Wingers would provide the answers!

      Many thanks Daisy Walker, Jockanese, Schrodinger and all – there’s practical ideas and information that we can all use. I especially like the Cairnstoon t-shirts – can give them as pressies [if Chris agrees?]. Indyposter ones would be good too.

      My local Yes group has never stopped – we meet and put on an event from time to time, write to our local paper, and deliver leaflets sometimes. It’s not so easy delivering things as our district is 700 square miles with a scattered population!

      My car has the original Yes sticker plus a Yes2 and a stout saltire is nailed on the garage – there is room for a billboard so will have a go at that. The sheep on the road will learn a lot!!

    444. Robert Peffers says:

      @TD says: 18 April, 2018 at 12:45 pm:

      In reply to Sensibledave at 11:52

      “Unusually for you, you do seem to be trying to put forward a rational argument on the response to the alleged gassing of civilians in Syria. In that spirit, I will try to respond to your post.”

      Great post TD but it is a total waste of time attempting reasoned debate with SD. So I didn’t. I had better things to do.

    445. K1 says:

      ‘it allows doubts that anti-SNP campaigners can use to discredit the SNP.’

      Like you you mean?

      Transparent and utterly pathetic trolling btl. You were warned last night, take heed, you utter…etc etc

    446. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      That’s the thing about WoS it is a melting pot of great information and ideas, and you are more than welcome @Sarah says at 9:36 pm

      You may find the advice of @schrodingers cat says at 4:43 pm

      “btw, £1500 pays the postman to deliver 1 x leaflet to your entire constituency.” useful given that you have “700 square miles with a scattered population” to canvass if your Yes Group has the funds and agrees.

      Maybe see if this mob can do you a good deal.

    447. Robert Peffers says:

      @TD says: 18 April, 2018 at 1:14 pm:

      “Just to be absolutely clear, Robert, Nicola Sturgeon did not and does not agree with the Westminster actions in response to the alleged gassing of civilians in Syria.”

      Indeed so, TD, I know that. You Know that and those in Scotland who follow political events all know that but the unionist factions will pretend they don’t know that and the Westminster Establishment will profess to not know that and their propaganda wing will completely ignore the press releases they were given by the Scottish government and/or the SNP as a party.

      That is what passes as normal unionist behaviour for unionists in Scotland.

    448. Official date for UK leaving EU is March 29th 2019,

      so would like Indy2 to be held a week or two before this date,

      being so close to the cliff edge of Brexit, with Independence a last chance to be saved from the unmitigated disaster awaiting outside EU,

      should help sway a big % of soft NO`s from Indy1 to crossing over to Yes for Indy2.

    449. ben madigan says:

      thanks Southern Rock for that long citation – I had found FM Sturgeon’s statement elsewhere but was not happy with the source.

      She’s sybilline as usual

      “I think it’s fair to say we are reaching the end game of this,” she said.

      “We know the stage the withdrawal bill is at in terms of being at the report stage in the Lords, so we will probably over the next couple of weeks need to see this come to an agreement or not.

      “We are talking now more like days rather than weeks.”

      IndyRef2 announcement coming up if things don’t go Scotland’s way?

    450. boris says:

      Topical post given the antics of the UK Supreme Court. The expressed concerns of Lord Carloway about the creation of a body sidelining the Scots Claim of Right and independent judiciary should echo loudly throughout Scotland but without media coverage few will ever know just how much their rights are being eroded infavour of the centralisation of justice at Westminster.

    451. Sarah says:

      @Jockanese WT: thank you again! Why didn’t I think of Ayemail?

      But £1500 for postal – phew. Our pop is around 2500 and loads of voluntary groups asking for money so I think we’ll have to stick to volunteers delivering!

    452. Rick H Johnston says:

      The Scots Law establishment should’ve backed the SNP scottish Govt when it contested the imposition of the UK supreme Court.
      They chose instead the interests of the English UK elite.
      Scots Law was guaranteed under the treaty of 1707.
      It can now be overruled by a majority of English judges sitting in London England.

    453. Robert Peffers says:

      @starlaw says: 18 April, 2018 at 2:00 pm:

      “Jeremy Wright QC needs to be informed that two versions of the law have been operational for 300 years.”

      Great comment, starlaw but …

      Those two versions of the law actually go back thousands of years and they were only made reference to in the treaty of union of 1706/7.

      However, the rule of law of the Kingdom of Scotland was internationally recognised in 1320 by the then international authority – The Holy Roman Se.

      At which time the rule of law of the Kingdom of England was the Divine Right of Kings and that did not change until 1688 and the English Parliament’s revolution against their sovereign monarchy.

      In fact, though, they made little change to their rule of law as their monarchy has remained legally sovereign until the present day. It is, after all, “Her Majesty’s Government but that tenet of law cannot apply in Scotland as Her Majesty is NOT legally sovereign in Scotland.

      The only small change they made in England was to legally compel their sovereign monarch to legally delegate the Divine right of Kings to the Parliament and thus made the kingdom of England into a constitutional monarchy.

      However, that rule of law is only that of the English kingdom as article 19 of the Treaty of Union states that the two kingdoms legal systems must remain independent forever.

      So it may escape the cognisance of many Scots minds and certainly all of the Englanders minds that in spite of the legalese terms it boils down to this – if her Majesty owns Westminster as her Government because she is legally sovereign in her kingdom of England then legally, (as the people of Scotland are sovereign), then part of the Parliament of Westminster must be legally the parliament of the People of Scotland who are thus legally not Her Majesty’s Subjects and they never legally have been. In fact, by definition, her Majesty must legally be the people of Scotland’s subject.

      Now would not that argument set fire to Her Majesty’s United Kingdom Supreme Court?

    454. Capella says:

      Interesting article in Euronews on which countries have the fairest voting system. Fairness measured by shae of eats close to share of vote.
      UK way down the list on account of FPTP. But France is even worse. Hungary the most unfair.
      Germany and the Nordic countries are the fairest.

    455. Northern Rock says:

      Crashing out of the EU still chained to Brexit England as they go head over heels over the cliff edge is a thought that frightens the life out me.

      And an no kiddin’

      We must hold and win IndyRef2 within the next year.

    456. Robert Peffers says:

      @sensibledave says: 18 April, 2018 at 2:46 pm:

      “TD & Peffers
      …. it would appear that you two cannot agree on Ms Sturgeon’s position. Which I guess, is exactly what she hoped to achieve?

      Oh! For Heaven’s sake, SD?

      Where did you get that idea from? There isn’t any difference of opinion between we two commenters.

      The facts, as usual, speak for themselves. Nicola Sturgeon is on public record as making a public statement that she, (speaking as the leader of both the Scottish Government, and of the Scottish National party that she leads), condemned the bombing of those poor defenceless people.

      Only later, after she had received information from the Westminster Government about the bombings, did she then make a further public statement that she had to agree to the Westminster Government’s actions. Note the difference between, “agreed with”, and, “agreed to”.

      But then you never have been overly aware of the political scene in Scotland. If you can be bothered you will, (Probably), find both public statements on YouTube or the BBC iPlayer.

    457. schrodingers cat says:

      Sarah says:

      My local Yes group and deliver leaflets sometimes. It’s not so easy delivering things as our district is 700 square miles with a scattered population!

      i would have thought you would be a perfect candidate for my suggestion.
      your district………… I dont know what a district is, never heard of it, is that a ward or a constituency?

      btw, a ward cost about £400 to get the postie to deliver. to do the rural areas in my ward it costs about as much in petrol.

      it is a waste of our time and resources to deliver leaflets
      btw, our ward, 5 leaflet drops would cost about £2000, I believe that is a sum that the 50 or so activists in this ward could easily raise by ourselves using crowd funding and traditional methods, raffles etc.

      we have an advantage over the unionists, we can put activists boots on the ground and CANVAS, knock on doors. they cant.
      we need to maximise this advantage,

      please, dont let the unionists neutralise this advantage by paying the postman to be their foot soldiers

    458. colin alexander says:


      I never accused the SNP of anything regarding CA. I said the SNP explanation may well be true. Regarding CA, I have no evidence or reason to accuse the SNP of having done anything wrong.

      Better communication and coming out with all the info right away could have prevented others (the MSM) from trying to cast aspersions. That’s all.

      I’m only anti-SNP when, in my view, they get it wrong. When they get it right, I’m willing to praise them.

      As far as I’m concerned, Stu is entitled to his opinion, even when he’s wrong; it’s his website.

    459. Ken500 says:

      The SNP did not lose at the last GE. They won. May lost votes and lost 100 majority.

      Now paying £3Billion illegally of taxpayers money to keep her in power.

      Corbyn is absolutely useless. An incompetent ignoramous,

      The SNP (pro rata) got more % votes than any of them.

      Inddependence still at 50% . SNP outvoting the lot of them. (Pro rata) 3rd rate rejects.

    460. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers cat @11.19
      Yes yes and yes again
      The ONE thing that No doesn’t have!!
      And can’t compete with is our “boots on the ground “ AKA
      The personal touch.
      That runaway train that even the SNP were surprised with…
      The Thing They won’t acknowledge…the Yes movement is real and growing!!!

      We can’t get too hung up on….all the campaigning models that No worked with …. they failed..
      They did not deliver a 30%…yes——70% No
      We need to remember that!!

    461. Indy2 says:

      The National:

      Tomorrow’s front page … BBC slammed after selling Scotland short – Production company says new Scottish channel has nowhere near enough funding to deliver on quality.

    462. Colin Alexander says:

      Robert Peffers

      On the other hand, the Unionist argument is that legally the Kingdom of Scotland became the state of Great Britain.

      That Scotland’s people used their sovereignty to end Scotland’s existence to become Great Britain. That it’s all legal and right.

      I’d love to hear someone argue your case with the Unionist position in court.

    463. HandandShrimp says:

      Fairly certain the CA whistle blower specifically said “we made a pitch to the SNP”. She never said “we worked for the SNP”

      They did work for Leave but given that this work is unravelling might suggest that they were a bit cowboyish.

      I see that the Groaniard is taking May to task over being less than accurate with the veracity over when the landing cards were destroyed (on her watch it would seem) and the chap that is supposedly getting his cancer care (he isn’t yet). If Jeremy had been better briefed he could have won PMQs game set and match today.

    464. schrodingers cat says:

      Liz g says:

      We can’t get too hung up on….all the campaigning models that No worked with …. they failed..
      They did not deliver a 30%…yes——70% No
      We need to remember that!!
      soz liz, i’m not sure what this means. I think you agree with my campaign strategy?

    465. Ken500 says:

      Cooper 1953

      Scotland sovereignty lies with the people under Scottish Law. The King , the Nobles, the Church and the people. All equal. 4th Estate. Scottish Law and equality guaranteed under the Act of Union forever. Or the terms are broken. The Supreme Court has to agree with Scottish Lord Laws or they break the Law. Scottish/UK/EU/International. Scottish Gov just has to appeal to ECHR. That’s how Scotland achieved Devolution. Right to IndyRef. Right to self determination. EU/UN. If people in Scotland vote for it. Gives a mandate.

      Just vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Get someone to vote too. Simple.

    466. K1 says:

      The SNP’s explanation ‘is’ true, wangle it all you want, you’re at it CA…there is no doubt about whether their ‘explanation’ is true, there is no reason to doubt it and only people with your particular very ‘personal’ issues are placing this ‘spin/hint’ on this.

      As you then state ‘I have no evidence or reason to accuse the SNP of having done anything wrong.’

      So why even go down that road? Irrespective of ‘better communication’ which the press releases from SG and SNP reveal, if the MSM don’t highlight and print the fucking things in prominent front pages and report the information on the fucking telly…it’s hardly an SNP issue is it?

      You’re on about your own very ‘personal’ issues on this blog, fuck all to do with politics. Go get some counselling with your projections CA. This is not a therapy site for those with your issues to continually blame a political party for you not getting the answers/results/outcomes et al that you are so aggrieved about.

      Let me remind you what ‘you’ are all about…and I will continue to post this until ‘you’ get it:

      ‘Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      17 April, 2018 at 8:22 pm
      “However, Mr Swinney’s poor handling of the Named Person Scheme and the SNP’s less than perfect handling of issues with Syria is slight mistakes compared to Shona Robison’s abject failure to properly monitor and regulate Scotland’s Health Boards”

      You’re on thin ice with this dull trolling, Col.’

      You do understand the term ‘thin ice’

      Now give it a fucking rest.

    467. Legerwood says:

      Robert Peffers @ 11.00pm

      I do not think Ms Sturgeon has agreed to The UK Government actions with regard to the Syrian bombing. Her tweets in the aftermath set out her position which does not seem to have changed:
      Nicola Sturgeon
      Nicola Sturgeon
      14 Apr
      My first thoughts this morning are with service personnel called to action.
      Syria’s use of chemical weapons is sickening – but the question that the PM has not answered is how this action, taken without parliamentary approval, will halt their use or bring long term peace.” #Syria
      Stewart McDonald MP

      “”The PM has engaged UK forces in gesture bombing, with no major international consensus and no long term plan to halt the use of chemical weapons or deliver peace. Most worrying, is that she has acted at the behest of presidential tweets and sidelined parliament. (link:…
      Show this thread
      Nicola Sturgeon
      Nicola Sturgeon
      Air strikes have not resolved situation in Syria so far – nothing I’ve heard persuades me they will do so now. An international strategy for peace must be pursued – not a course that risks dangerous escalation. UK foreign policy should be set by Parliament, not US President.
      6:43 am · 14 Apr 2018″”
      perhaps you have confused it with the Salisbury poisoning?

    468. schrodingers cat says:

      Sarah says:
      But £1500 for postal – phew. Our pop is around 2500

      sarah, the £1500 is to deliver to an entire constituency, roughly 62,000 people, about 38,000 letter boxes

      that is £400 per 3 councillor sized ward, average 9000 people with 6000 leaflet drops(letter boxes) £500 for a 4 councillor ward with an average 13000 people with 7800 leaflet drops(letter boxes)

      your comment seems to infer that if i lived on an island with 10 other people, the royal mail would charge me £1500 to deliver 10 leaflets?
      as such, your example isnt revlevant.

      question, what constituency and ward do you live in?

      until that is established we will forever be comparing apples with bananas and any discussion about pricing would be ridiculous

      also, an over all campaign strategy for indyref2 needs to take into account the situation of vast majority of people living in scotland. it cant be modelled on an island with only 10 people?

    469. Dr Jim says:

      My my my,@ Scotland tonight, even Torcuil Crighton can’t make up his mind which of his two Tory parties red or blue is the bigger Nazi, and then goes on to give credit to the SNP?!

      What on earth’s happening?

    470. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      schrodingers cat at 12.16

      Minimum price however for the “Door to Door ” service is £500 plus vat.

    471. Valerie says:


      As you know, I never bother addressing your relentless drivel, I find trolls easy to ignore, but you are really being an arsehole over the Cambridge Analytics smear.

      Sturgeon is calling them chancers, and says other parties obviously didn’t take that view.

      You are parroting tired, yoon, msm smears.

      Try and at least be orginal, we are subjected to their shite every day, without you amplifying here.

    472. Colin Alexander says:


      “Col”. You’re jist jealous cos me and Stu are on first name terms haha.

      Prior to 2014 Mr Swinney laid out the Scot Govts Indy financial plans to the UK Govt, naively thinking that’s the best way to plan things out for smooth transition to Indy-lite.

      If there is Indyref2 or indy-election, next time I hope the Scot Govt etc won’t be so naive to think that this will be left to the people of Scotland to decide without interference.

      They’ve hopefully learned that the UK Govt with all it’s power and influence will be brought to bear to support the continuation of Scotland remaining under the control of the UK Govt.

      Forget the idea of the UK Govt being neutral. Forget conventions, like Purdah. Forget the idea of a fair contest. Forget the idea of negotiating and presenting plans in advance to the UK Govt for what happens if Scotland chooses independence. Forget the idea of willing cooperation. Forget about Gentlemen’s or gentlewomen’s agreements.

      If there’s an indy campaign: Forget ideas about policies apart from basic economic principles. Forget about an SNP Govt or a socialist or social democratic govt. This isn’t about SNP or Labour or Tories. Socialist or capitalist. Left-wing or Right-wing. EU or EFTA.

      This is about independence. Sovereignty. Freedom to choose for ourselves how we run our country. The ability to choose the govt we want and vote out govts that fail us.

      When we have that freedom, that independence, then we can decide about which govt and which policies to have. Then we can choose to apply to join the EU or not etc etc

      The first step is getting our independence. Till that happens, talk of policies is nothing but foolish daydreaming.

    473. Phronesis says:

      Brexit-there’s no free lunch for the disunited kingdom in fact it’s a dog’s dinner.

      ‘Brexit is often seen as a welcome opportunity for the UK to regain regulatory sovereignty and to achieve a relief from overly burdensome EU regulations. However, there would be no free lunch for the UK…

      it is not obvious that the UK could obtain access conditions of similar quality than the EU. Firstly, the UK can offer only a significantly smaller market than the EU and it would probably be in the defensive position. Moreover, the negotiation capacity of the British government would come under strain if it had to deal with up to 30 bilateral and regional trade agreements (with over 50 countries) simultaneously. Due to this and also due to the fact that trade negotiations usually take several years, it could take relatively long until new agreements would enter into force. This would create a dilemma for the UK: In order to reap the welfare benefits of free trade, the UK would have to unilaterally reduce its trade barriers rather sooner than later. Yet, if it does so, the bargaining chip to eliminated trade barriers is no longer available in bilateral trade negotiations…

      the overall evidence suggests that a Brexit could cause a significantly worse economic impact in a more pessimistic scenario than the mainstream conclusions indicate’

      Scotland (the country, not the Lincolnshire suburb) did not vote for Brexit. A parley of parity is required between Holyrood and WM not a parley of patronage regarding Scotland’s status within the EU.

    474. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Colin Alexander at 11.37

      Obviously you are unaware of the MacCormick v the Lord Advocate ruling in 1953 or that an essential condition of the Treaty of Union was that Scottish law remained independent and separate.

    475. Dr Jim says:

      Jeremy Corbyn says the saving of BiFab was down to the solidarity of the workers and the trade unions

      Aye coz they all went round the world and found a Canadian company to buy the place totally without the First Minister and the SNP team and the investment of the SG

      Come to think of it I’d put money on Jeremy Corbyn not even knowing where BiFab is unless Richard Leonard looked it up wrote it on his red scarf and slipped it to him under the table

      One would certainly hope the workers at BiFab would take a wee look at the party they pay their dues to and have a wee examine of what the Labour party and their faux solidarity actually do do as well as just run off at the mouth and then solidly abstain from ever doing anything about anything

      All mouth and anti semitism, and see if you google anti semitism the word Labour comes up followed by momentum

    476. Colin Alexander says:


      The issue around CA is that it is being accused of unlawfully, some say illegally, collecting data from internet users, primarily Facebook, and by doing this that it helped the Trump Campaign and Brexit campaign to win. (The SNP party leadership favoured Remain so were on the other side of the contest).

      Even if SNP hired consultants had talked to CA a million times, that’s not a crime or anything illegal.

      There’s nothing to suggest the SNP hired CA. Nothing to suggest the SNP paid CA to help the SNP by breaking the law.

      All I said is the SNP could have handled things better. They could have come out saying they talked to this firm and rejected involvement with them. Rather than waiting till CA name dropped the SNP.

      I’m not interested in making up stories or smearing the SNP or Scot Govt with false accusations: I’m concerned with the real issues I have with some of them.

    477. schrodingers cat says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Minimum price however for the “Door to Door ” service is £500 plus vat.

      ithink what you are saying is the cost must be organised on a ward or constituency level for savings of quantity?

      i think this is the case, it always will be. it would take organisation, but i dont think this is beyond us.

      btw, to deliver 10 leaflets by post, to the whole of scotland would cost about 1 million. liberating all activists to concentrate exclusivley on canvasing, ie door knocking.

      the only input from yes groups would be what leaflet they wanted delivered to which post code, (ie, no point in delivering a heap of farmers4yes leaflets in glasgow etc)

      sounds like a lot, until one realises that the unionists can raise this in an afternoon in a gentlemans club in london from 10 donors.

      this is what we are up against

    478. Chick McGregor says:

      Scenario 1: Despite it meaning Assad, on the verge of taking control of Douma, would have to be the most cretinous fuck on the planet by using chemical weapons and inviting Western intervention, that may be true.

      Scenario 2: White helmets may have seized on a dust/smoke inhalation incident to fake a chemical attack to provoke Western intervention, that may be true.

      Scenario 3: CIA and/or British intelligence and/or Israeli and/or Saudi agents, for various reasons, may have instigated the incident or participated in faking it, one of those may be true.

      Scenario 4: Trump is using it as a zip detracting squirrel. That may be true.

      Scenario 5: With the impending talks between Trump and Kim Jong-un, after Trump’s ‘fire and fury’ corner painting exercise, it is a face saving exercise agreed to by him and possibly Putin. That may be true.

      I contend that more significant than which on of those scenarios (and many others unspecified) is true, is the fact that any of them could be true.

    479. schrodingers cat says:

      my post should put across the idea that i believe leafleting is a waste of our resources and the main advantage we will have in indyref2 over the unionists.

      i would also like to point out that i am completely scunnered delivering leaflets 🙂

    480. Chick McGregor says:

      Erm distracting not detracting and which one rather than which on in that last sentence.

    481. Dr Jim says:


      This guy couldn’t even slither under himself soaked in chip fat Valerie

    482. Colin Alexander says:

      Dave McEwan Hill

      The judge’s comments to which you refer to in MacCormack v Lord Advocate were obiter dictum.

      In other words they were passing OPINION made in discussing the case; they did not form part of the legal ruling, so did not form case law or legal precedent.

      The case was: was the Queen legally entitled to be called Queen Elizabeth II in Scotland, when there hadn’t been a first?

      But thanks for reminding me of that. It is definitely interesting.

      I like this page too.

    483. ian murray says:

      Had a random thought about the house of Lords
      What happens to all of the Scottish Lords after Independence ?
      Are they out of a cushy job?
      They do not represent their people anymore

    484. colin alexander says:

      Ian Murray

      (HL PAPER 188)

      “As the law now stands, if Scotland were to leave the United Kingdom,members of the House of Lords who live in Scotland would have to be resident, ordinarily resident and domiciled in the rest of the UK for the purposes of certain taxes. If they did not want to pay tax in the rest of the UK,they would have to retire from the House. (Paragraph 76)
      In the event of independence it would need to be decided whether peers of Scotland should be entitled to continue to be members of the House of Lords on the basis of a Scottish peerage alone. (Paragraph 78)
      We agree with the Committee’s conclusions at paragraph 76 that, as the law now stands, members of the House of Lords must be treated as resident, ordinarily resident and domiciled in the UK for the purposes of certain taxes1
      . If a majority of people in Scotland vote to leave the UK, then after negotiations, Scotland would leave the United Kingdom. Peers who currently live in Scotland would either need to
      be treated as resident, ordinarily resident and domiciled in the continuing United Kingdom for the purposes of certain taxes, or choose to retire from the House.”

    485. schrodingers cat says:

      ian murray says:

      What happens to all of the Scottish Lords after Independence ?
      Are they out of a cushy job?
      They do not represent their people anymore
      they dont represent anyone at the moment, after a yes vote, whether they stay on in the hol is no concern of mine since i wont be forced to pay their wages anymore

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