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Tory Idiot Of The Week

Posted on November 01, 2017 by

We’re clearly going to have to make this a regular feature.

And it’s not as though the competition isn’t stiff.

This, for example – even by Murdo “God Save The Queen’s 11” Fraser’s standards – is a remarkably open and brazen display of sectarian dog-whistling.

For those of you, like us, who had to look it up:

So that’s triumphalist Brexit sneering, tying football to religion AND flat-out factual inaccuracy (Celtic are by no means out of Europe – they still have two games in the Champions League left and are likely finish third in their group and therefore be in the Europa League after Christmas) all in a single 20-word tweet. An impressive feat of efficient bigotry and stupidity, if nothing else.

But of course, Scottish Labour are rarely outdone in the dribbling-clownery stakes.

(The timeline of Kelly, former Labour Lord Provost of Glasgow and one of the Celtic directors who took the club to the brink of bankruptcy in the early 1990s, is an eternally reliable fount of jaw-dropping buffoonery on any subject you can think of.)

They’re usually more careful about pretending to oppose the Tories than this, too:

And we were also somewhat startled, after a series of Daily Record columns by former leader Kezia Dugdale demanding that men take the lead in tackling sexism, at the response from Scottish Labour types when some men took the lead in tackling sexism.

Particularly as both the Presiding Officer (elected as a Labour MSP) who chaired the meeting and the official representative sent by Labour were, um, men, despite half of the party’s MSPs being female and presumably available for the job.

Sadly, of course, as Annie Wells demonstrated so ably at the start of this article (perhaps the first time she’s done anything ably since being sort-of elected last year), switching the gender of Unionist M/SPs in Scotland is no guarantee of a higher IQ.

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    571 to “Tory Idiot Of The Week”

    1. One_Scot says:

      Unionists were clearly at the back of the queue when brains were being given out. And when they got to the front, clearly they had ran out.

    2. Ian says:

      Ken Macintosh isn’t wearing a poppy. Burn him!

      I’d remember this though as, almost certainly, it won’t be long until Scottish Labour are complaining about someone not wearing one.

    3. woosie says:

      For people who are lucky to be in their jobs, Wells and Fraser do some amount of complaining about the country which pays them. Almost always without foundation. Shouldn’t a loved one ( there may be some ) tell them to refrain from posting until they’ve checked them for stupidness?

    4. bobajock says:

      Dumb and dumber.

      Is it me,. or is it a Tory over there, in the dunces corner?

    5. Macart says:

      Oh dear God!

      Every one a winner near as I can see. The out and out idiocy and lack of either empathy or understanding on display is simply jaw dropping.

    6. Muscleguy says:

      @One_Scot
      The problem is that a certain cadre of politicians got where they are by a sort of low cunning and the deployment of sharp elbows. In addition any sort of free thinking gets weeded out of contention or squashed flat once elected. Jeremy Corbyn and Dennis Skinner are remarkable in that they are still around despite being the awkward squad.

      While the SNP do seem to have garnered the cream of the crop, largely, and adherence to group discipline seems voluntary and in pursuit of a goal I do worry that they will become prone to selecting that sort of person in the future.

    7. winifred mccartney says:

      As if Ruth does not have enough to worry about, Murdo Fraser has just woken up and is at his bigoted, biased best on twitter and it is not the first time – will there be an tories left at all.

      The bbc of course leads with the ‘catalogue’ of sexism offences in Holyrood, yet the PO states there are ‘no active cases’ but Amwar, a lawyer who should know better is still going on about the large number of offences, where is the evidence? A lawyer making accusations without producing proof and the MSM have him on TV and radio at every turn.

      Anyone and anything to say snp baaad and distract from the serious situation that is only now being called out (despite being known about for decades) in WM where we seem to be governed by drunken, misogynistic leering males who obviously do not have enough work to do and are getting drunk partly at our expense. Why are the bars open while the house is sitting – I dont recall any bars staying open for back-shift and night-shift workers anywhere.

      Never mind all those who do Scotland down and decry the snp can await their letter in the post and their ‘honour’ or ermine.

    8. heedtracker says:

      Dr NO! is a spook/plant but Lord Foulkes? UK Lords is now the world’s second biggest entirely unelected legislature, only outdone by China?

    9. Scott says:

      Tories don’t lie surely.
      When is someone to call out Davidson on the blatant lie she told on the Marr program regarding the 6 week waiting time for UC I tried but she will not answer email I sent her.

    10. Dan Huil says:

      These British nationalists are pathetic. Arrogant and ignorant. They only survive because of the British nationalist media.

    11. Andy Anderson says:

      No one should be able to become an MP, MSP or any other political position until they have gone through a psychiatry course that hypnotises them to never tell lies, or as politicians to only tell half truths. Half truths being better than no truth.

      The majority of our so called leaders must be embarrassed at themselves when they look in the mirror. Mind you this is not a problem for some as their mirror would always break if they looked at it.

    12. galamcennalath says:

      The future of their Union depends on these characters?

      There must be a Plan B.

    13. Interesting Ruth making any comment about sex and harrasment.
      She revelled in crude sexual innuendo while speaking to Tory colleagues. Grinning like a Cheshire Cat for her moments of fleeting glory.

    14. HandandShrimp says:

      I think Wells is in some sort of competition with Baillie and Rennie as to who can be the most dense. That said, Willie has been very quiet recently, a sign of some developing wisdom?

      Murdo is a reactionary, sectarian buffoon and an utter and total gift.

      Kelly is just a joke, albeit a very bitter joke. That most pathetic of stances that considers the illegal actions of the Irish uprising as just and glorious and everybody else’s uprising as sedition. A hypocrite of the first order.

    15. David Caledonia says:

      A friend of my had a fav saying, he has been dead many years now, but his saying still applies to this day, he used to say, if they had brains they would be dangerous, very apt for these stupid people

    16. Graeme McCormick says:

      It would fit Murdo Fraser better if he had the grace to acknowledge that the Reformation in Scotland ushered in world leading legislation emancipating women by allowing divorce and a woman’s right to own property without her husband’s consent. These reforms were introduced when Scotland was independent and took place some 400 hundred years before English women had similar rights.

    17. mike d says:

      Macart 10.54am.what is even more jaw dropping and beyond comprehension,is that people in Scotland vote for these creeps.

    18. Bob Mack says:

      It is scarcely believable that folk actually put an x in a box ( in some cases)to elect these buffoons. I cannot help but think of all the aspects of human nature we have witnessed from these clowns, including racism, bigotry and xenophobia, and yet here they are telling us to get our house in order.

      They are the bottom of a very large dung heap.

    19. geeo says:

      Billy Connolly may have turned into an establishment sell out, but you cannot help feel he had it pretty accurate when he once said…

      “The very desire to become a * politician should automatically bar you from ever becoming one”

      He missed out one word and that would have been perfect…*unionist.

    20. Les Wilson says:

      I think there must be a outbreak of rabies in the unionist ranks.
      They all seem effected.

    21. Proud Cybernat says:

      Class. Sheer class.

      You Rev. No’ those clowns.

      And we have to pay for this bunch of numbnuts?

    22. Proud Cybernat says:

      BREAKING from Pravda Quay
      with Jackie Kim Ono

      https://imgur.com/a/JU3dj

    23. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      O/T
      Tomorrow is the fiftieth anniversary of the event that set us on the road. Has the SNP forgotten?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaXMT_7wmXs

    24. Robert Graham says:

      Oh Christ it’s never ending , the total bilge these clowns spout daily , the idea these cretins are out mixing with normal people , and the joke is we are financially supporting them , most of them would be hard pushed to do a real job .

    25. HandandShrimp says:

      Delighted to see Stu’s good news (although any other outcome would have been insanity). Hopefully all will be back to full steam ahead and the accuser can get back to writing about planet Earth’s imminent demise from planet Niribu or something.

    26. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      HandandShrimp at 11.48

      ?

    27. Vestas says:

      Looking at the execrable standard of unionist MSPs I really can’t help wondering if its deliberate.

      By that I mean its all part of the “too stupid” part of the mantra – “look at these morons guys, how can you possibly run a country with clueless idiots like this?”

      It the only thing that explains fuckwits like Wells being almost the norm – either that or she’s blackmailing someone to get on the list….

    28. Training Day says:

      Wells is of course the sprout-brained dunce who appeared on TV to inform us that she does not recognise the authority of the Parliament in which she sits, although she is happy to be remunerated handsomely by said Parliament.

    29. Macart says:

      @mike d

      These very same self appointed guardians of the moral low ground accuse the SNP and YES movement of divisiveness and yet on display we’ve got sexism, tribalism and sectarianism within a handful of tweets. Oh and let us not forget some good old disingenuous, openly deceitful horse shit from those who should know both their brief and their current politics better.

      Them’s your choices folks. Politics their way or maybe well beyond time for a change? After all their practice of politics has worked out so well for everyone.

    30. panda paws says:

      Dave McEwan Hill @11,57M

      “A spokesman (For the Met Police) said: “On August 18 a man aged in his 40s was arrested at an address in the Avon and Somerset area on suspicion of harassment and malicious communications.

      “He has now been informed that he is released with no further action.”

    31. Andy-B says:

      It says a lot about Murdo Fraser’s agenda that he can recall Reformation day. I mean it’s not something that springs to mind, is it? unless of course you see it as some sort of important date or milestone.

      No doubt Murdo Fraser is also into Calvanism, and Presbyterianism, and can recall important dates to do with them also.

    32. David Wardrope says:

      Sorry O/T,

      Glad for you Rev. to see the ridiculous harassment saga has been (rightly) dropped. This outcome highlights the desperate lengths some folks will go to because of a grudge, and said person should quite rightly feel a bit embarrassed at the backfire of attempted smears against yourself, the stressful impact on a persons life, and for the time wasted.

    33. Dr Jim says:

      Apart from these two idiots and their ranting nonsense when and how were these emission figures measured because anybody who knows London knows you can hardly breathe half the time so was it Monday morning rush hour in Glasgow for a measurement and a Sunday afternoon in a London park for theirs

      It’s an easy SNP Baad headline but London is a sprawling mass of toxicity Monday to Friday so much so they’re coming up with ideas to charge folk for breathing it
      In comparison Glasgow’s pretty small and apart from Hope street and a couple of others can’t possibly compare to London, standing at a bus stop in London for an hour with your lips practically wrapped around exhaust pipes could be fatal with more diesel taxis and buses standing still spewing out clouds of stuff and that’s without counting the millions of folk with bad breath stuck up against you everywhere you turn

      Are they hoping some folk haven’t actually been to London recently? They have smog for God sake

    34. galamcennalath says:

      It is not coincidence that all the dodgy, undeclared, or untraceable donations are to parties on the right, or right wing causes.

      Dodgy money, dodgy people, dodgy agendas. Rules are for the little people, not the special entitled classes.

    35. mike cassidy says:

      Scottish Tories were not at all keen when the introduction of LEZs was announced back in January.

      http://archive.is/Udwhy

      “Scottish Conservative transport spokesman Liam Kerr said: “This particular move would punish motorists and businesses – two groups the SNP has already got it in for.

      “Hammering those who can only get to work by car would be extremely unfair, and send out the wrong message altogether.” ”

    36. Bob p says:

      Anyone who is pro indy and has so much as a parking ticket,will be scrutinised and vilified by these unionist vermin.

    37. HandandShrimp says:

      Andy-B

      I wonder if Murdo was one of those who had to go and change his PIN after seeing Trainspotting2 🙂

    38. Sarah says:

      Sort of O/T. Why isn’t there a huge outcry about the reduction of HoC seats to 600 whilst HoL membership increases almost weekly?

      In Scotland we are to have 50, instead of 59 [used to be over 70] and the proposal for the North is only ONE seat for the whole area north of Inverness! We have until 11th December to let the Scottish Boundary Commission know what we think.

    39. Sarah says:

      And Rev, your release from under that black cloud is the best news I’ve had since…er… can’t remember something as pleasing, actually!

    40. Alex Clark says:

      You can view a “real time” air quality map for the United Kingdom here. Works perfectly in Explorer but not properly in Chrome on my machine.

      A simple glance shows that the air quality in Scotland, even in the central belt, is far superior to that in other areas of the UK.

      http://aqicn.org/map/unitedkingdom/

    41. shiregirl says:

      I’ve taken a total neck beamer reading this…what a total shower of numpties. Embarrassed for them.

      Yoghurt for brains, the lot of them.

    42. ronnie anderson says:

      Kezia Dugdale lecturing others for being by standers in her Rancid column She’s the feking by stander by not reporting theses abuses that she claims to be privy to .

    43. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The voting system that lets almost completely unrepresentative people like Annie Wells (with the vote of about 1 person in 12 on her FPTP effort)into parliament needs looking at.
      I can see a case for representation of parties that make up a significant proportion of support in identified areas but there surely has to be a base line.

    44. Abulhaq says:

      The United Kingdom has gone from a failing state to a flailing state, desperately stuggling to find a justification for its continued existence. Oh look, a ginger topped prince may be getting engaged to somebody called Meghan….there’s Strictly and Christmas is coming thanks to the Coca Cola company….what a relief!

    45. Artyhetty says:

      Well they have form that’s for sure, these Britnats. Vote down any attempts by SNP Gov to improve air quality, or anything in fact, then complain in public that the SNP are very bad for not doing what the Britnats stopped them doing to improve air quality or anything else for the people of Scotland.

      Anyone who hasn’t cottoned on to Britnat tactics yet has to get thwir head out of the sand and take their blinkers off, else the Britnats really will succeed at ruining and laying waste to Scotland.

      I spoke to someone when testing for asthma, who said his brother works in London in respiratory and it is getting worse by the day re pollution. People are really suffering there due to air pollution that the Britnats seem to not be too bothered about.

      Great air quality map there btw, thanks Alex Clark @1.02pm.

    46. Robert Peffers says:

      @Bob Mack says: 1 November, 2017 at 11:33 am:

      ” … They are the bottom of a very large dung heap.”

      I know exactly what you mean, Bob, but you got the analogy wrong.

      They are actually the TOP of a very large dung heap.

      The purpose of making a large dung heap is the put the fresh dung on the top and the actions of the heap, including self generated heat, does away with the worst effects of fresh dung.

      Which is also why farmers turn the heap from time to time. It moves the fresh shit down to hotter levels.

      However, no matter what else, the heap is all total shit anyway.

      Now I expect someone to comment that I’m just talking a load of shit – as usual.
      ;-))

    47. William Wallace says:

      Article in the Dundee Tele. No action to be taken. As we all predicted.

      Pro-independence blogger to face no action over online harassment claims

      http://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/2017/11/01/pro-independence-blogger-to-face-no-action-over-online-harassment-claims/

    48. Dr Jim says:

      Well you started out at the beginning of reporting Scotland as Stuart Campbell and ended up as Mr Stuart

    49. William Wallace says:

      I think I was a bit slow with the news having just checked Stu’s twitter. 🙂 I wonder if it will receive as widespread coverage as his arrest did. I won’t hold my breath.

    50. galamcennalath says:

      @Robert Peffers
      @Bob Mack

      dung heap

      … and we mustn’t forget the shambles we see around us, literally a bloody mess.

    51. Stoker says:

      To any newbies lurking, try and avoid helping to finance the Unionist BUM rag in the post at 1:40pm by clicking on the direct link. That rag regularly craps all over Scotland and our cause, so why anyone would want to help finance it is beyond me.

      Meanwhile, one of our big guns sadly bows out of the fight:
      http://indyref2.scot/my-last-ever-article#comment-84308

    52. Robert Peffers says:

      @William Wallace says: 1 November, 2017 at 1:40 pm:

      “Article in the Dundee Tele. No action to be taken. As we all predicted.
      Pro-independence blogger to face no action over online harassment claims”

      http://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/2017/11/01/pro-independence-blogger-to-face-no-action-over-online-harassment-claims/

      BBC text service now also carrying the story. Fame indeed.
      ;-))

    53. Ken MacColl says:

      Competition for the title is extremely keen! I am grateful to the Rev for pointing out that Michael Kelly and Lord George Foulkes are still working away at the coalface. They had slipped off my radar but I will need to reinstate them to help illuminate the dark autumnal nights.

      I watch the Labour crème de la crème sniping weakly weekly at the First Minister on Thursdays but surely their supreme all time champ has to be James Kelly as he delivers his devastating party pieces.
      Is he related to Michael?

    54. William Wallace says:

      @ Stoker 2:04

      The only reason I included the Dundee tele link is because archive.is has not been working correctly for me of late.

      @ Robert 🙂

      Have misreporting Scotland checked in yet? 😉

    55. HandandShrimp says:

      I noticed on Stu’s Twitter that Dr Von Scott was dismayed that 6 men and 1 woman met to discuss sexism and harassment In Holyrood. If I was still a Labour voter I would be perplexed that Labour sent James Kelly too.

    56. Cag-does-thinking says:

      Man does Nothing – continues to be innocent, evidently doesn’t fit as a headline….

      Still I’m sure they enjoyed a fishing expedition through your world, ya know, just in case they want to find you did something at a later stage.

      Anyone else find it funny that the BBC runs these stories about male harassment 24/7 while keeping very quiet about their own position and history on the issue.

    57. Alex Clark says:

      O/T
      President of European Parliament Antonio Tajani, speaking of Puigdemont:

      “Tajani noted that Carles Puigdemont came to Brussels as a European citizen to enjoy all freedoms. Tajani added that Puigdemont had not escaped the dictatorship such as North Korea or Venezuela. On the contrary, Spain is an example of true democracy. The ousted leader Catalonia violated both the laws of Catalonia, and the constitution of the EU member state.

      At the same time, the head of the EP considers that the EU should not be concerned about Carles Puigdemont’s fate.”

      https://archive.is/cR03N

      Stick the boot in EU, why don’t you?

    58. Capella says:

      BBC News -> Scotland section of the website is carrying it but not on the other “national” sections even though the blogger lives in Bath.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41832155

    59. cuilean says:

      Hell slap it into them Stu. Scintillating, nay, one is on mesmeric form today!

    60. manandboy says:

      ‘No further action’ in Stu’s case means further action would not be in the interests of the British Establishment.

    61. Albaman says:

      Glad an happy see that the police down your way, have seen sense and dropped all charges against you.
      Although we were confident in your confidence of “no case to answer” it more than pleasing to realise that you’ll be unfettered to continue the fight for Scotland’s rightful place among the nations of the world, as a independent nation.
      If “officialdom” can react and come to a conclusion in a relatively short space of time, why then did it take so long to come to a decision on the three S.N.P. M.P.s ?, one of which is still awaiting a final decision I believe.

    62. Clydebuilt says:

      Shurely there’s lots more than ONE Tory idiot of the week?

    63. Andy-B says:

      “I wonder if Murdo was one of those who had to go and change his PIN after seeing Trainspotting2 ”

      Apologies HandandShrimp, I’ve not seen Trainspotting 2 yet, so the puns went right over my head.

    64. harry mcaye says:

      You’d think any New Rangers fan would have some sense of self-awareness and avoid gloating comments about a far superior side’s European matches, given they were papped oot by the FOURTH best side in Luxembourg!

    65. Macart says:

      @Alex Clark

      RE: EU

      Nope. Not impressed one bit by their actions to date. Mind you, international politics – there are no friends, only mutual interests at best and private advantage the rest of the time between governments.

      There are days you can desperately despair of humanity.

    66. galamcennalath says:

      Now that the his alleged transgressions online have been dismissed, I wonder if The Rev is free to now tell us what it was about so we can judge for ourselves. I, for one, haven’t a clue what happened.

    67. admiral says:

      HandandShrimp says:
      1 November, 2017 at 2:28 pm
      I noticed on Stu’s Twitter that Dr Von Scott was dismayed that 6 men and 1 woman met to discuss sexism and harassment In Holyrood. If I was still a Labour voter I would be perplexed that Labour sent James Kelly too.

      So was oor Ruthie too busy auditioning for the circus or practising her baking to turn up?

    68. The Unionist parties have clearly exhausted the very limited pool of humans – you know, those with empathy, compassion and foresight – in their fold, and after scraping the bottom of the barrel, poking a hole through it, digging the ground under it, they’re now rummaging into the deeper rounds of hell for rotten souls.

      Paedophiles, fraudsters, attempted murderers, sectarians, racists and sociopaths, all have passed vetting and scrutiny. Do we expect those who are supposedly their superiors to be better than them, and capable of looking after our towns, cities and country’s interest when they can’t protect their own party from such lowlives?

      That no humans are willing to put themselves forward for them says how FUBAR they are.

      It’s time to go on the attack. No mercy.

    69. Alex Clark says:

      @Macart

      The real issue I have with these “leaders” of the various EU departments have told us that this is an “internal matter for Spain”.

      Then in total contradiction they have all expressed loudly their support for Rajoy and the Spanish government, while at the same time condemning Puigdemont and the elected Catalan government.

      If it’s “an internal matter for Spain” then they should STFU and keep their noses out of other peoples business, not choose to take sides!

    70. Kat Hamilton says:

      Kelly and foulkes, yesterday’s dinosaurs that offer zilch in understanding, awareness or relevance…asking Tricia marwick to explain her actions to a jumped up buffoon beggars belief…he’s a legend in his own lunchtime, vino included no doubt…How Wells can be allowed to pontificate when she clearly doesn’t recognise scotlands parliament or it’s legitimacy is a farce..she should retract or reaffirm her vows…well mr macintosh?

    71. “Tory idiot of the week”

      Think you are being a little optimistic there, Rev. It’s only Wednesday!

    72. Robert Graham says:

      Hey – Kezia .

      HES BACK !

      Any comment Son of Fluffy ? .

    73. Macart says:

      @Alex Clark

      As I said only a few days ago, they need to be aware that whatever happens next, people will be watching their governments. I probably should have added ‘and judging’ when you come to think about it.

      Humanity, empathy, care aren’t serving suggestions. You have to walk the walk. You can’t take any politician or government seriously who bangs on about societal care and ethics, if at the first sign of an injustice they about face because it doesn’t suit their personal agenda.

      The law isn’t always right or in the right. It isn’t always good or for the good of all. Some of the worst crimes in humanity’s history have been perpetrated in the name and letter of the law. Hiding behind it can be an even worse crime.

    74. Proud Cybernat says:

      Every lickspittle…

      https://imgur.com/a/ZxtqW

    75. manandboy says:

      harry mcaye says:
      “You’d think any New Rangers fan would have some sense of self-awareness…”

      harry, WADR, WATP don’t do self awareness even at the best of times and never where the former European Cup holders from Parkhead are concerned.
      Most of what WATPIbrox do is usually described in a sentence containing the word ‘mindless’.

      Ps. When 40,000 turn up after the liquidation of RFC at a Scottish 3rd Division match every week dressed in red, white and blue with a splash of orange then you know that it’s for more than a football game – it’s a practice for the Twelfth of July in Belfast, and not even liquidation is allowed to stand in the way of that.

      Pps. As for Reformation Day – time for a dose of reality. Scottish protestantism is about 1690 for the majority, most of whom probably think Martin Luther is a possible new signing from the English lower leagues.

      Ppps. The Ibrox club is in close proximity to another insolvency event. That’s self-awareness.

    76. Elmac says:

      Now the police have confirmed no action will be taken over allegations of online harrassment I assume they will be considering whether or not to press charges against the complainant for waste of police time.

      Anyone with half a brain (does that exclude unionists?) knows there was no merit to this and it was politically inspired. I do not see why they should be allowed to get away with wasting taxpayers money.

    77. Brian Powell says:

      admiral

      With 40 Tory MPs in the firing line I would expect Ruth Davidson will keep out of the way on any committees dealing with this issue.

    78. HandandShrimp says:

      Andy B

      I won’t do any spoilers – it will makes sense when you see it 🙂

    79. The E.U. Say it is an internal matter for Spain that was not their attitude towards Scotland they were lining up to talk down our bid for freedom I them and it seems the rest of the world aye all these leaders of the so called free world???

    80. galamcennalath says:

      Sky – “Liam Fox: Don’t be afraid of US chlorinated chicken after Brexit

      The International Trade Secretary believes consumers shouldn’t be worried about American-produced meat entering UK supermarkets.”

      Then, why are the currently banned? Why isn’t the EU awash with cheap US food products?

      I voted Remain for a good many reasons, and high on my list was EU food standards.

    81. Marcia says:

      Why isn’t there a ‘Tory Idiot of the Hour’?

    82. HandandShrimp says:

      Pity the EU has shown itself to be a paper tiger on democracy. It is just a big shopping club and little more. A good shopping club without doubt but a shopping club none the less.

      It is less than useless as a moral political force and I don’t think we or the Catalans should look to the EU for leadership or support. It just isn’t that sort of political entity.

      To be honest if we secure Indy we should stick with Norway and Iceland and just have an associate membership of the shopping club.

    83. Greannach says:

      The British Nationalists have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to entering candidates for the weekly Fool of the Week competition. Just a few of the leading lights would be:
      Annie Wells (almost in a league of her own);
      Miles Briggs;
      Jamie Greene (spectacularly dim);
      James Kelly;
      Murdo Fraser;
      Anas Sarwar;
      Willie Rennie;
      Monica something (the Labour equivalent of Wells – I can’t remember her name but she is addicted to making a fool of herself as publicly as possible);
      Tank Top Davidson (always a reliable dolt).

    84. mike d says:

      Handandshrimp. Inclined to agree with you there. That lot (EU) have never done us any favours.

    85. Graeme says:

      I see GA Ponsonby has wrote his last article (or so he says) for personal reasons, but I can’t help feeling it’s as much disillusionment with the YES movement as anything else

      maybe it’s just me

    86. Bill McLean says:

      Whatever religion Murdo Fraser claims to follow, he does it little credit!

    87. stu mac says:

      @Marcia says:
      1 November, 2017 at 4:21 pm
      Why isn’t there a ‘Tory Idiot of the Hour’?
      =============================

      The Rev has to eat and sleep occasionally.

    88. pitchfork says:

      Georeg Foulkes: Yer Other national Drunk

    89. Doug Bryce says:

      re: EU / Catalonia

      Their hands are tied. If they intervened then euro-sceptics would right complain about them interfering in sovereign nations affairs.

      The real issue is the outdated Spanish constitution which is being us a shield to avoid answering the Catalan question. Even if he wanted to offer a legal referendum Rajoy is unable to do so without Spain consenting to new constitution.

      Rather than blame EU we should be blaming the member states who refuse to condone Spains actions. We should also be looking to the UN – they have guidelines on self determination and are the appropriate organisation to apply pressure.

      Doug.

    90. CameronB Brodie says:

      Scotland is beset by low-brow yoon MSPs. What have we done to deserve this?

      Lol, I think Murdo is another Tory attaining a mastery of zen in his art though. 🙂

      “Think of not thinking. How do you think of not thinking? Non-thinking.” – Dogen-Zenji

      http://thatssozen.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/buddha-never-told-me-to-be-stupid.html

    91. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Robert Graham Whit dae ye mean he’s back. he Stu hudnae gone away . It wont be easy for Kezia to withdraw Cashinggg .

    92. Dr Jim says:

      There is no Unionist village idiot in Holyrood
      they all get a turn

      Equal opportunities

    93. Macart says:

      @Handandshrimp

      Have to agree with that assessment.

      I’ve long argued for patience on the issue. Be open to the arguments at a more appropriate time.

      TBH my vote was up for grabs on the EU issue when, as an independent Scotland, we could have a more grown up conversation. I have to admit at this point that they are rapidly making my mind up for me.

    94. ronnie anderson says:

      The wardrope’s keeping spitting them out like woodworms

      http://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/glasgow-tory-candidate-suspended-party-13842975

    95. Stuart McTavish says:

      Doug Bryce 4.35 pm

      They should be more concerned about Europhiles than Eurosceptics.

      I would have thought that simply entertaining the concept of an illegal referendum makes one ipso facto an enemy of the people.

    96. jfngw says:

      When it comes to thickos, the Tory MSP’s display an abundance of talent. Although they do claim to have an IQ of around 150, but this is the combined total,there is 31 of them so it’s not that impressive is it (some may have negative numbers ).

      The go to parties, if you want pish, go Labour, thicko, go Tory.

    97. Chris Kilby says:

      Murdo Fraser could wank for England. And probably does.

    98. PictAtRandom says:

      Surely the issue is that the EU shouldn’t be claiming to uphold certain principles unless they’re able and willing to enforce them. More to do with honesty and credibility rather than actual intervention. A second issue is that a country like Spain with a problematic constitution shouldn’t have been waved through. Rather like Greece and its dodgy economy.

      My own view is that Scotland would fit in best in an alliance of small nations (up to about 12 to 15 million population). I’ve thought of it as being an Atlantic / Baltic seaboard type thing, but who knows, maybe places like Catalonia, Switzerland and Slovenia could get involved as well? EFTA could form the bones of that sort of set-up.

    99. schrodingers cat says:

      Doug Bryce says:
      re: EU / Catalonia
      Their hands are tied. If they intervened then euro-sceptics would right complain about them interfering in sovereign nations affairs.
      …..Rather than blame EU we should be blaming the member states who refuse to condone Spains actions
      ————————–

      the eu’s hands are tied, we all know this, the real issue is that the eu is currently applauding the violence by spanish police. had they said nothing, your point would have been valid, but they are not, they are backing spain to the hilt. if that isnt intervening i dont know what is
      ————–

      heed, macart, i have always been pro EU, but my faith has been somewhat damaged of late.

      i initially started the single market/norway/efta type option as our position in indyref2, not because i didnt like the EU but because i was convinced it was the best tactic for us to win. eg, a no in indyref2 means we are out of both.

      i was criticised by many on here, but lately they have kept quiet. the norway option is now the only horse in this race, for which i am grateful, but the victory is bitter sweet.

      we can now turn the bbc propaganda against them

      no immediate eu membership because
      1. andrew marr has told us spain will veto scotland eu membership application
      2. andra neil says we will have to join a cue
      3. the eu itself has said we need to apply via A49 as a new nation.

      we can only promise in indyref2 that which is in our power to deliver (cue norway and iceland promising immediate access to efta the day after a yes vote)

      a pound scots requires no agreement from any unionist westminster politician.

    100. schrodingers cat says:

      PictAtRandom
      agreed
      we have made many friends in catalunya (and enemies of unionists across europe) but i believe these only nation states, france, spain, italy uk, belgium are history, the eu’s future is in the smaller nation states, eg scotland, catalunya, basque, flemish, bavarian, breton etc.

      we as an independent nation in efta (or in the eu) will also have the power to create our own military alliances, catalunya being an obvious one. such an alliance would become over night, the goal of all of the nationalist parties in the new emerging smaller eu nation states.

      guy verhofstad desires eu military integration. he has backed the wrong horse,

    101. schrodingers cat says:

      CameronB Brodie

      Murdo Fraser, a grand master in the ancient art of one hand clapping

    102. Macart says:

      @Schrodingers cat

      I remember. Don’t worry about it. I think a lot of us have had our faith knocked a bit on this one.

      Pretty much why I’m big on holding governments and the political class to account. Keeping them within boot to arse distance as it were.

      When we vote for someone or something, they act in our name. They write the cheques, but we undersign them. Some of their decisions and actions however, shouldn’t have our name anywhere near them.

    103. Iain McLean says:

      ‘tory idiot of the week?’

      All tories are absolute idiots all of the time!

    104. David says:

      Macart said:

      ‘They write the cheques, but we undersign them. Some of their decisions and actions however, shouldn’t have our name anywhere near them.’

      Are you *gasp* suggesting people should take some responsibility for their actions or lack of action?

      Careful, mate, the hysterical leftists on this forum will skin you alive.

    105. Iron man says:

      O/T
      And Tesco are now to drop the Saltire from Scottish goods and replace it with the Butchers apron flag. Aw well there are plenty more supermarkets I can shop in.

    106. schrodingers cat says:

      http://indyref2.scot/my-last-ever-article

      ga ponsonby says goodbye

    107. Lenny Hartley says:

      galamcennalath Re Rev, I went onto the Rev’s twitter feed to see what it was about when it was current, basically nothing. Female journo prints pish, Rev calls her out for it, she doesn’t reply, Rev asks her if she is going to respond a couple of times. That was it. Imho she should be charged with wasting police time.

    108. schrodingers cat says:

      agree with ponsonby, the national needs to be metroed

      no more yes leaflets a daily newspaper to give away

      we could get lidls and aldis onboard, they could integrate their promos into it.

    109. galamcennalath says:

      So now we know who will be first to try to feed us cheap imported food ….

      http://archive.is/IuJdJ

    110. mike cassidy says:

      schrodingers cat 5.05

      Nothing should be ‘attached’ to indyref2.

      No Eus, eftas, baftas or anything else

      Simple question on independence – yes or no

    111. HandandShrimp says:

      The Metro is 50% adverts and mostly syndicated content which is what pays its way. The National is slim because it is largely advert free. They would have to change their business model a fair bit to give it away free.

    112. Brus MacGallah says:

      From the BBC story about WOS.

      “Mr Campbell launched his pro-independence site in 2011, since when it has become the most prominent and widely-read blog on Scottish politics.”

      LOL

    113. Cag-does-thinking says:

      I should comment on the LEZ but I didn’t earlier. While it’s good that finally Glasgow is trying to address it’s abysmal air quality I should caution that LEZs really aren’t all that effective at doing that.

      The worst air quality monitor in Western Europe was the one halfway up Hope Street at a time that the junction was not only a taxi tank but also where buses accelerated to get up Hope Street and lets not forget that Central Station at the time had poor air quality from the trains idling in the station.

      The truth is that London’s LEZ depended upon huge investment in modern buses and the banning of all trucks outwith very tightly controlled time zones. Yet pollution levels INSIDE public transport spending most of it’s day in London are really off the scale with regard to public health, regardless of the perceived improvements in emissions. The point here is that this has happened whilst government in Whitehall helps fund the new vehicles to go to London, although notably this has fallen away since Labour got Mr Khan in as mayor.

      Glasgow has no such benefactor and nobody to finance new trains buses and taxis. That leaves a huge gap between expectation and reality.

      The largest operator of buses in Glasgow is First and they have a track record of leaving markets that require too much investment for not enough return. We could be in danger of having large numbers of bus routes being terminated outwith the city centre with no viable alternative transport. I believe more thought over the proposal is needed or the SNP will be blamed for the chaos which could ensue.

    114. schrodingers cat says:

      mike cassidy

      i hear you mike, but the question will be the same as last time with yes/no the only answer

      but the idea we can simply refuse to mention or answer questions about what currency and the eu is for the birds
      £scots an single market are the best option to win.

      nothing more

    115. yesindyref2 says:

      Shame to see GA go, but a lot of people have neglected lives in the pursuit of Indy, perhaps it’s time for him to get back to it.

      Reminds me though of a poster on Newsnet, Alex S, who also posts sometimes on the H. A bit of an abused poster the way these things go, but his dedication to a Constitution always stayed in my mind. I thought we’d need Indy to have one, but I’ve come to realise we should have one now, and should have had one even back then.

      The EU with its dogmatic fascination with Spain’s Constitution has shown the way on this. Even though it’s about member state Constitutions, it would have problems ignoring the Constitution of one of its 350 regions of its 28 members.

      It would have been, and would be, one way of having total sovereignty for Scotland – and Scots. Nothing could be done that would be against our Constitution, as long as it was confirmed through a referendum, and perhaps “ratified” by our parliament, even while “devolved”.

    116. schrodingers cat says:

      they would have to change their business model a fair bit to give it away free.

      fine, then they should do it.

    117. Marie Clark says:

      Glad to hear the good news Rev, although we all knew it was a waste of time. Hope the said female is done for wasting police time.

      Idiot of the week, well we’re spoiled for choice aren’t we.

      Re the EU. I feel much the same as Macart. I was undecided at the referendum, especially after the treatment that was meted out to Greece. I had to hold my nose and vote remain. Now I really do not care for what I’m seeing at the moment with regards to the Catalans. What happened to Article 7 I think it was, about using the military or police against your own citizens? Forgotten about or just shrugged the shoulders and turned away.

      I would now have to think very very carefully about Scotland remaining in the EU. Not a happy bunny at all.

    118. Old Pete says:

      I will be in the audience on tomorrow nights QT from Kilmarnock, anyone got an idea of a good question they would like me to ask.
      Jeane Freeman will be on it along with Kez and Owen Jones for Labour some Tory MEP and an English economist who writes for the Telegraph and Spectator.
      So give me a good clever question.

    119. TheWasp says:

      Union Jackie just featured the rev on disreporting

    120. Ruby says:

      Has anyone ever been to The Valle de los Caídos in Madrid?

      Is there any other gigantic momument dedicated to Nazism in Europe or is it only in Spain?

    121. TheWasp says:

      Well done Old Pete

      Ask Owen Jones about Kez telling Scottish voters to vote tory.

      Ask Daniel Hannan how much money he’ll be making from brexit, if he can afford to lose his job

      Ask the English economist the benefits of Scotland staying in the union

      Tell Jeanne Freeman how great she was destroying the Brillo on daily politics

    122. HandandShrimp says:

      Old Pete

      There needs to be a question on the 58 Brexit reports and the impact they will have on our understanding of what Brexit will actually mean for the UK and Scotland….might be a fair few asking that though.

      With Jean there a question on what further welfare powers should be devolved to Scotland to make the process more joined up.

      or following up on Darling’s comments “should elements of immigration particularly in relation to meeting skills gaps be devolved to Scotland?”

    123. Lenny Hartley says:

      Indy2ref there are a group of people who meet reguarly working on a Constitution. Re Eu looks like I was same as a few folk, not happy about Greece but held my Nose, now if would need to be the only way we could get Indy before I would vote to join. EFTA with customs union is now my preference.
      Re Eu Complaints , if you have a complaint about a member state you can submit it here
      https://ec.europa.eu/assets/sg/report-a-breach/complaints_en/index.html

    124. yesindyref2 says:

      @Old Pete

      “Is it true the UK’s central bank, the Bank of England, makes a large profit and is of huge economic benefit to London, and is is true Scotland having our own currency and central bank would not only be costless, but of huge economic benefit to an Independent Scotland?”

    125. meg merrilees says:

      Great news Rev – sorry you were put through the stress of this whole sorry accusation.

      Brilliant advertising on the BBC tonight and WELCOME to all new WINGERS who find themselves joining in the next few days.
      You’ll enjoy the discussion – but make sure you read the rules or you might get chased by Hammers!!! ( Not literally!)

      Visca Catalunya

    126. geeo says:

      I do not really care what the FUTURE relationship with the EU is.

      Without independence, we do not even have a damn choice.

      Independence first, EVERYTHING else later.

    127. meg merrilees says:

      Yesindyref2

      Good article in The National today about this subject. Are you asking your question after having read the Article?

      They posit that between 350 -1000 jobs could be created and it would be profitable very soon after creation.

      Sounds feasible to me – but I’m not a financial expert.

    128. schrodingers cat says:

      meg merrilees
      i looked at the ctalan election results from 2015, and the recent opinion polls in support of indy. rajoy can arrest mps, intimidate the population, but he cant stop the population voting for indy parties. when they win again on dec21st, rajoy has said he will reject the result. this throws the situation into a loop until the indy parties lose???

      if i were catalan, i would be lobbying the eu to provide international observers to supervise the count (and to protect the voters)

      “It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything.” uncle joe

    129. Robert Peffers says:

      @Cag-does-thinking says: 1 November, 2017 at 2:31 pm:

      “Anyone else find it funny that the BBC runs these stories about male harassment 24/7 while keeping very quiet about their own position and history on the issue.”

      I do not find it funny – I find it as expected and totally BBCish.

      What I do know is that the problem is far from being an exclusive male on female matter. I did a long spell as an official shop steward and a longer one as an unofficial steward in a detached section of mixed trades where no union had large enough numbers to have their own steward. Both these in an industrial environment.

      I dealt with such harassment problems as experienced by both sexes. Not to mention that as a young apprentice I had a spell on electrical maintenance in a housing scheme for our workers. The things I experienced there I could write a best selling novel about.

      I also spent several, usually six month terms, as a member of a six senior apprentice group doing installation work in large equipment stores and large machine shops that employed mainly females. The lads suffered much sexual harassment from older females that didn’t stop short of actual rape.

      Sexual harassment, like domestic abuse, really is a two way matter but there is a definite slant of males being either more disbelieved, officially discouraged or too ashamed to report these matter.

      Ask, for example such trades as tenters in the now almost defunct spinning and weaving mills and they will tell you tales of verbal and physical abuse by females that would make your hair stand on end.

      Now that is not a dig at the females and I would say that in the past, when more females stayed home bringing up the kids, there was indeed more such abuse male on female but that the problem is far from being one sided and anyone who has been present in a venue where a hen party is taking place knows that is the truth. It is though, just a fact of life but one that must be discouraged – for obvious reasons.

    130. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      RE: a free pro-indy daily.

      When I bus to work, I usually use Stagecoach, for the free wifi. (Arbroath – Ninewells Hospital.)

      Sometimes, I get an Explore Dundee bus. There used to be a stock of Metros on the ED buses but, in the past few months, I’ve seen no Metros. No explanation as to why they are no longer avilable.

      Maybe an opening?

    131. yesindyref2 says:

      @Lenny Hartley
      I saw one effort that was going into exactly how government should be set up, different levels, and that or another one specifying what our duties should be, like picking up litter for an hour a day, hugging a tree first thing in the morning, and about 100 clauses long filling the complete encyclopaedia scottica in 10 300 page long volumes.

      For me it should be a couple of pages long, capable of being read by a five year old, and even committing to memory. And it should be about our rights, not those of politics or political parties or governments, nor about our “duties as citizens”.

      Not much more really than the 2012 one. but made for us, not parliament:

      “We the Sovereiegn People of Scotland have the absolute right to determine the form of Government best suited to our needs, and demand that in all its actions and deliberations our interests shall be paramount”

      with just a few short paragraphs describing how that might be enforced (petition, referendum, constitutional court).

      Less is more.

    132. galamcennalath says:

      Will Michael Fallon resign his seat in HoC too? Doubt it!

    133. yesindyref2 says:

      @meg merrilees
      Yup, two very interesting articles, one about and one by Craig Dalzell. Plus looking at ScottieDog and Derek Hendry (?) postings about MMT and currency, the Mitchell bilbo blog and Richard Murphy who has an influential voice at the moment.

      Ref EU, I honestly don’t care at the moment as long as one way or another we are in the EEA. When the time is right for the decision, we’ll know more about the Spain / Catalonia situation, and how the EU did or didn’t handle it as a political entity.

    134. schrodingers cat says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      RE: a free pro-indy daily.
      ————————-

      i think you just made a very important point about a metro’ed independent

      the metro needs to pay for a distribution network, imagine how many more areas it could reach with an army of yessers promoting and pushing it into every crevice of our society?

    135. heedtracker says:

      More Tory idiot resignations anyone?

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41838682?SThisFB

      Fallon’s very quickly buried by C4 teatime news toryboy’s too. They look a bit flustered right enough, do C4 toryboy’s. Can the tory creep show get any bigger a UKOK catastrofuck? Lots of work for their beeb gimp network.

    136. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Also, I’ve always been pro-EEC, EU, etc. However, the way the EU has reacted to the Catalonia situation has dissapointed me.

      As others have pointed out, “Human Rights” should have been the main issue. This obfuscation that we have seen over the past month has made it obvious that the EU’s prerogative is to preserve “the state”, rather than the rights of EU citizens in that state.

      I always remember what happened when we joined the Common Market. For years, our family butter had been “Golden Emblem New Zealand Butter”. We joined the CC and Golden Emblem (along with other Commonwealth produce) dissapeared from the supermarket shelves. Why?

      Maybe others are right; EFTA should be the way forward after we’re independent, rather than the EU, but that decision should be AFTER we’re independent – not a plank of the next independence campaign.

    137. Daisy Walker says:

      @ Old Pete

      Sample Q’s

      The WM Govt reports about the economic impact of Brexit on the different areas within the UK are being deliberately withheld from the public and from their elected representatives – given the rumour that Scotland is likely to be one of the areas to suffer the most, how important is it for British Nationalism – whether Socialist or Tory – that the Scottish voter is deliberately kept ignorant of the facts?

      Is British Nationalism really just English Nationalism dressed up in a union jack, and can the panel agree that the complete contempt shown to the Scottish Electorate – 62% of whom voted to remain – makes the above question much more pertinent.

      England’s economy is in more debt now than at the end of WW2. Scotland’s economy is in the black and exports more than it imports. Does the panel agree that with Scotland’s oil revenues going to the UK, and with Scotland’s renewable energy potential being 4 times larger than its oil industry – the UK cannot afford to lose Scotland.

      Westminster is running the Scottish Oil industry at a 23 million loss this last year, a year when even Germany managed to make a 2 million profit out of oil – does the panel agree that the gross mismanagement of this resource is due to an embarrassment factor of English electorate knowing this resource is being stolen and their country profiting, but not wanting to look the details in the face.

      Many months after the Grenfell disaster and the Tory Council in charge and the Tory Government in power cannot even count the number of bodies correctly. Does the panel agree that the decision to label the victims of that fire, who jumped from that blazing building as ‘suicide’ is utterly reprehensible and utterly false.

    138. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      “dissapeared”?

      SHAZBOT!

    139. call me dave says:

      Jings! How the mighty have ‘Fallon’

      Sir Michael Fallon resigns over behaviour claims

    140. heedtracker says:

      the metro needs to pay for a distribution network, imagine how many more areas it could reach with an army of yessers promoting and pushing it into every crevice of our society?

      Can we not just crowd fund buying it and leave piles on buses etc. Metro do it here in Glasgow, and its extremely tory, very anti SNP, very anti Catalonia etc. Its probably a Daily Heil rag, it feels like one.

      Last stacked up pile of Metro headline I saw, Monday morn, on the bus, “Huge Crowds of Catalonians Fly Flag of Spain” big close up of Spanish flag wavers, could be anywhere.

      If you can’t sell your rancid Britnat tory propaganda, pay bus companies to get their drivers to be your paperboys and girls.

    141. Robert Peffers says:

      @Alex Clark says: 1 November, 2017 at 2:33 pm:

      “Stick the boot in EU, why don’t you?”

      As I’ve already pointed out, Alex, the actual EU parliament seems to not yet have had any debate on the Spain/Catalonia situation. That being so the EU cannot have as yet made any decision or official comment on the matter.

      That means all such statements to date are personal opinions by the person making the statement. When the EU Parliament does have a debate we may see a very different official announcement.

      Bear in mind that to have an EU debate on anything requires at least an official motion to be proposed and seconded. It then has to find a slot in an overcrowded agenda to have the debate and there may be either opposing motions proposed or amendments to either motion made before there will be a debate and vote.

      Now guess who is the current president and the country who hold the present presidency of the EU parliament?

      Here is cut & paste that exposes a little realised fact:-

      The official title President of the European Union (or President of Europe) does not exist, but there are a number of presidents of European Union institutions:-

      The President of the European Council (since 1 December 2014, Donald Tusk).

      The President of the European Commission (since 1 November 2014, Jean-Claude Juncker).

      the President of the European Parliament (since 17 January 2017, Antonio Tajani).

      The Presidency of the Council of the European Union (since 1 July 2017, Estonia – Jüri Rata.

      (The bold emphasis in the above is mine).

      Does that explain what I’m attempting to get across?

    142. Old Pete says:

      Some food for thought, any other ideas for questions.
      Seems odd for BBC having a panel to the left with Jeane Freeman and Owen Jones ? Can’t count Kez the red Tory of course. Don’t know the MEP anybody know anything about him ?

    143. Robert Kerr says:

      How many frigates for the Clyde now?

    144. yesindyref2 says:

      @BDTT
      I wonder if there’s any tie-up between Sidlaw Executive Travel (Bob Costello) and Xplore Dundee buses?

    145. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The Metro belongs to the Daily Mail group so is most certainly not our friend.

      The physical printing of newspapers is relatively cheap – a lot cheaper than printing political pamphlets and the Metro is funded by advertising revenues.

    146. Dan Huil says:

      @geeo 7:04pm

      Agreed.

      OT. Didn’t like to say too soon after Nana’s link on the last thread [Courier?] but it’s great news about the dropping of false accusations, Rev.

      Without doubt WOS is crucial to Scotland regaining its independence.

    147. TheWasp says:

      Hannah is Peruvian born but son of the English upper class. He was a rabid brexiteer and is a smarmy shit any time I’ve had the misfortune to see him on a political programme

    148. Alex Clark says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Regards the President of European Parliament, Antonio Tajani sticking his nose in. I do believe that what he said was his personal opinion.

      My point was that the official line of the EP and the EC is that this is an internal matter for Spain. So these gobshites should STFU rather than do more damage than they already have done in a very fragile situation.

      They should have kept their mouths shut while working behind the scenes to first of all prevent any further violence and just as importantly secure a solution for Catalonia and Spain via the ballot box that would be seen as free and fair.

      By their words so far. Democracy in the EU? Bah humbug!

    149. Alex Clark says:

      A free and fair vote last time I looked did not include police batons and the removal of ballot boxes along with the closing of polling stations.

      Spain were and are in the wrong. let the Catalonians vote and if the high head yins of the EU feel the need to pontificate on this matter then that is what they should have been saying.

      Not pretending it’s it’s “an internal matter for Spain” then speaking out in defence of Spain.

      Antonio Tajani actually said today “that the EU should not be concerned about Carles Puigdemont’s fate.”

      Well the EU should be concerned and they fail us all by not being.

    150. schrodingers cat says:

      Dave McEwan Hill

      the thread is about ga ponsonby’s last ever blog where he says that the national newspaper should be “metroed”

      this means a free newspaper distributed like the metro, supported by advertising.

      perhaps i should have said, imagine the national, run like the metro (with its existing distribution costs) but with an army of yessers ensuring a far deeper reach into society than the metro has

      ps, i live in deepest darkest fife, we are too poor and cant even afford free newspapers. i have never even see a metro 🙂

    151. Bob Mack says:

      One by one the inevitability of retribution will overtake these monstrous Tories. Cannot be soon enough.

    152. Lenny Hartley says:

      Yesindyref2 disagree less is more re constitution, its needs to spell out the limits of parliament, in great detail otherwise they will find ways to circumvent it to the detriment of us.
      We had one of the sharpist legal minds on the planet Neil McCormick write one a decade or so ago, any constitution should use his as a base, . I know nothings of constitutions but the sovereignty of the people should be the first sentence!/Paragraph

    153. Robert Peffers says:

      @Albaman says: 1 November, 2017 at 2:49 pm:

      “Glad an happy see that the police down your way, have seen sense and dropped all charges against you.”

      Actually, Albaman, if you had followed Rev Stu’s teachings you would have understood that the, Police Down his way”, were not the ones who decided to arrest an innocent man.

      The complainant, apparently protected by law from having her name made public, made her complaint to The Metropolitan Police in the Metropolis, (or as we say in Scotland, The metropolis polis).

      These metro polis, in turn, requested that the Polis, doon his wey, arrest Stu, on suspicion only, of a suspected offence.

      So the persons guilty of arresting an innocent person were the complainant woman and the Metropolis Polis.

      Good to see the news that Rev Stu is innocent – as we never doubted he would be.

      However, any publicity for Wings is good publicity and people who come from idle curiosity may stay to further our cause.

    154. CameronB Brodie says:

      Dr Jim
      The only time I’ve experienced air quality as poor as central London’s used to be, was when I was cleaning buses as a second job. This was all inside the bus depot and when you blew your nose the bogies were black due to the emissions.

      There is no reason you should have been aware of the extensive efforts already made to improve air quality in central London, but I’d have thought it only sensible that Annie Wells MSP, should have check out the score was before bumming her gums and trying to make political capital out of the historical legacy of dysfunctional local governmental under BLiS____d.

      https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files
      /london_stalling_-_reducing_traffic_congestion_in_london.pdf

      http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/95559/london-t-charge-pollution-zone-has-arrived-and-will-grow-in-2019

    155. schrodingers cat says:

      Fallon has resigned, more will follow no doubt. but it changes nothing. these people wont resign their seats, just disappear from the limelight for a few months. they will still turn up to vote. no change in the electoral arithmatic
      —————-

      Nick Robinson?Verified account @bbcnickrobinson 53m53 minutes ago

      Commons just voted to publish Brexit papers ministers said they couldn’t publish. Story of this parliament = government’s got no majority

      the government is presently considering its response
      i might just say no, so dont get hopes up.

      if these papers are released, it is a big stick we can bash the unionist with

    156. Dorothy Devine says:

      Rev, delighted to hear your news – hope the complainant gets their collar felt for wasting police time.

      Bye ,bye Sir Michael Fallon – you have fallen from grace and I’m pretty sure it doesn’t just relate to a journalistic knee!

    157. Hamish100 says:

      ot 1970’s school trip to see how air pollution is measured. Enter basement area of Glasgow Central Hotel. Flashing lights tape decks and from looking out of wee window seeing folks feet we were told that this location picked up the worst road traffic pollution in Glasgow due to its location. High buildings around traffic busy and idling engines, prevailing wind from SW. As this was the worst place to measure all other areas were better!
      No doubt labour politicians like Kelly and Foulkes would sort it out

    158. Robert Peffers says:

      @Kat Hamilton says: 1 November, 2017 at 3:14 pm:

      ” …well mr macintosh?”

      What’s the point of asking, Ken Macintosh, Kat?

      Ken is without doubt the most biased official ever to have sat as Presiding Officer.

      Ken is so biased he walks with his pockets on one side, (The right side), filled up with pound coins to correct the tendency to walk towards the left.

    159. dakk says:

      Glad to hear Stu cleared of spurious allegations.

      Also glad to hear of Fallon’s resignation in admitting to slippin’the haun as they say.

      What is it about these Scotch defence ministers?

      Fallon,Fox,Murphy, Reid.

      They’re a bit unpalatable to say the least.

    160. Robert Peffers says:

      @Proud Cybernat says: 1 November, 2017 at 3:38 pm
      “Every lickspittle…”

      Just to let you know that your links to IGMAR are being reported as insecure links.

      They do not, though, seem to contain any actual harmful content. Apparently they have the wrong certificate.

    161. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi yesindyref2 says at 8:01 pm.

      “@BDTT
      I wonder if there’s any tie-up between Sidlaw Executive Travel (Bob Costello) and Xplore Dundee buses?”

      I don’t think so – I’d be very surprised. I’ve known Bob since he was a teenager. We had a hiatus from the 70s until 2014 but I don’t doubt his pro-indy motive. No doubt he’s reading this and may interject to put you straight.

      His business and Dundee Explore are competitors.

    162. Macart says:

      Fallon gone and possibly more to follow.

      Fallon though, isn’t the story. The possible release of the Brexit impact reports coupled with these scandals and the ever more precarious DUP/NI situation will result in the real story.

      Motion of no confidence? Collapse of government? After the past couple of years especially, you’d be mental to rule anything out right now.

      Wonder if the Rev is up for another snap election? 😀

      Anyroads… Now, more than ever, is a time for calm and patience. I suspect the YES movement is about to be handed a gift. Let’s use it properly and wisely when the opportunity arises.

    163. heedtracker says:

      Minette Batters, together with all kinds of Englishness, or Dimbleby’s idea of a British balance of debaters. Minette Batters, Billy Bragg, Lisa Nandy MP, Jacob Rees-Mogg MP. Who says England is not a foreign country, Scotland?

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b092gkkq

    164. heedtracker says:

      Motion of no confidence? Collapse of government? After the past couple of years especially, you’d be mental to rule anything out right now.

      Macart,

      But England will be furious at the tories, if they go to the polls again. It would be suicide. So if the tories really have had enough now, Brexit’s too big a catastrofuck for the tory party to deal with, they may well do it.

      Should be interesting in Scotland though. Colonel Ruth’s in hiding but she’s not exactly built on her 13 tory idiot MP crew, from last time, Scottish poll wise.

    165. Valerie Rooney says:

      Particularly delighted about the Fallon news, he made my skin crawl. A more pompous, condescending, sneery Britnat would be hard to locate.

      Must be some real filth being uncovered, because it’s not about that dead squirrel that was launched about touching Harpie Brewer’s knee.

      As he has tied it to the Armed Forces, I wonder if it refers to those sailors he sacked?

      Anyway, he should be vacating as MP, it’s disgusting they hang on.

    166. heedtracker says:

      Toryboy smarm. His henchwoman’s good though. Bet no one feels her up in the cab back to Glesga airport.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3Gd9yh4HsI

    167. Albaman says:

      @Robert Peffers,
      Actually Robert I was aware that the complaint emanated from the London area, and that it would be the “Met” in all probability who would become involved, I do follow the Rev’s postings, so it was, at the time, easy to assume the ,who,why, and where.
      My expression “down you way”, refers to any area south of the river Tweed !.
      Hope Mossmorran hasn’t kept you awake at nights!!.

    168. Brian Allan says:

      Just like Checkatrade.com. Checkapolitician.com / checkanewscaster.com / checkareporter.com. Gosh, that’s a lot of work for some folks. Stu, why don’t you expand your operation and really put the wind up the establishment?

      You do great work and I’m glad to hear that the crap charges are dropped.

    169. Marker Post says:

      Congrats Rev on the “acquittal”. Can’t have been easy.

    170. PacMan says:

      Iron man says 1 November, 2017 at 5:45 pm

      O/T
      And Tesco are now to drop the Saltire from Scottish goods and replace it with the Butchers apron flag. Aw well there are plenty more supermarkets I can shop in.

      At the last referendum, as well as the down right lies, there was FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt). Part of this involved sound-bites of mis-truths and assertions that sounded true but wouldn’t bear under simple scrutiny or would reveal rather nasty motivations. One of these was that Scottish goods wouldn’t be bought by the rUK of the UK in the event of independence.

      It is obvious that there is an ongoing movement of removing all things Scottish in the commercial sector. That that all these Scottish goods are branded British now and that people in the rest of the UK are buying them, what will stop them from buying them in the result of independence?

      It is a simple sound-bite that can gain momentum in the Scottish public consciousness but it will eventually be challenged and given scrutiny. Once it does, it will reveal a nasty bitterness in part of the British psyche that will not particularly go down well with the Scottish public. It will be hard for those against indy to defend it.

      Also to mention, another bit of FUD was about RBS, claimed by the No campaign to be a Scottish company that would drag down an independent Scotland. As part of their corporate strategy, RBS will disappear south of the border and will only operate in Scotland. Again, it will be hard for those against Indy to use that again and the slightest scrutiny will show that RBS is a financial group with a number of companies including the Royal Bank of Scotland and Natwest banks, the biggest one being NatWest which solely operates in England and Wales.

    171. Robert Peffers says:

      @mike d says: 1 November, 2017 at 4:26 pm:

      “Handandshrimp. Inclined to agree with you there. That lot (EU) have never done us any favours.”

      That’s claptrap, Mike d, there isn’t a corner of Scotland that has not benefitted from the EU and that would have benefitted even more if Westminster did not hold the purse strings of the cash the EU pours in supposedly for Scotland’s use but that Westminster misappropriates and uses elsewhere.

      You are confusing what certain EU officials and the EC with what the EU actually is and says.

      From former mining areas that get EU cash for clearing up the environment to transport links to green energy and much more the EU puts more money back into Scotland than it takes out.

      What people like Barroso have said in the past was not what the EU said – it was his own opinions and furthermore he wasn’t even the EU – he was the EC.

      These present persons stating pro-Spanish views can only be giving their own opinions for, far as I’m aware, there has been no actual European Parliament debate, decision or vote on anything to do with the Catalan situation.

      Please read my earlier post about the, “EU Presidencies”.

      There is no actual, “President of the EU”, as so often inferred by the media. There are only Presidents of various EU departments. I have listed some already.

      Bear in mind that no EU decisions can be made by these officials and that every member state has a veto over every EU matter. It only thus takes one veto to kill anything stone dead.

      Remember also that the EU must rely upon its reputation to survive. If it is not seen as being fair and above board then the member state that is wronged could veto everything the EU attempts to do and the EU will be dead in the water and will split apart and be gone.

      It may be slow to act but it really must reach a consensus and I very much doubt it has yet done so over the Catalans right, under EU law, of self determination.

      If they kill off Catalonian self determination they sign the EU death certificate. If one EU citizen is wronged by the EU every one of us is wronged and these officials know it.

    172. Macart says:

      @Heed

      Half joke, half earnest. Honestly? It’d be a brave soul to predict what happens next. UK gov is in almost total meltdown. They’re beset by scandal, broken deals, international ridicule and a fractured society. All of this before we get to the serious issues of Brexit, the failure of austerity ideology and a burgeoning constitutional crisis.

      I never thought I’d see a UK gov so broken, so panicked, until after Scotland chose its own path. To see it fall apart before our very eyes on a day by day basis is almost surreal.

    173. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Fallon’s resignation

      Julia Hartley-Brewer has tweeted that she doesn’t think it was her “knee episode” that prompted the resignation. Maybe more to come out (or hide)

    174. Alex Clark says:

      They are a few posting under the misconception that the Rev was charged with anything. Well he wasn’t there were no charges, he was questioned based on allegations from an unnamed person.

      These allegations have now been found to be totally false and he has been told that there will be no further action.

      However I’m sure they got what they really wanted and that was his computer hard drive which no doubt was given a good going over for contacts, correspondence and a good long hard look into his personal life including websites he visits etc.

      They will absolutely snatch your computer in the search for evidence when the allegation is related to an online offence such as his was. Why though did they wait more than 9 months after the complaint was made if I am right in my belief of who the complainant was?

      So what’s the outcome after having your bottom drawer searched and them looking under your bed for any dirty mags?

      Squeaky clean would appear to be the answer unlike most of the Tories in government and our councils. Hope you got your computer back Rev.

    175. schrodingers cat says:

      I never thought I’d see a UK gov so broken

      agreed, camerons move to a 66% majority for a vote of no confidence is the only thing holding westminster together at the moment

      the labour commitment to brexit and voting for the a50 bill is the dumbest thing ever and is the other reason this brexit process will continue regardless of how bad things get

      options and means to stop brexit are thin on the ground

    176. heedtracker says:

      Macart says:
      1 November, 2017 at 9:14 pm
      @Heed

      They must be under massive pressure from UK business though, to not Leave. If they do fold, Brexit ref2 and another GE would be likely, maybe. Its not like a PM Corbyn is going to be any better at Brexiting than the actual tories.

      How much did Nissan get to stay in Sunderland, how many more Nissan’s are wanting paid to stay? This whole sex harassment issue reeks of tory bullshit too.

      Orange Hitler’s imploding, Teresa’s on the verge of collapse, imagine the UK media hysteria, if this was all on the left.

    177. heraldnomore says:

      Fallon on his sword has he; oh ffffrigates…

    178. Robert Peffers says:

      @Graeme says: 1 November, 2017 at 4:27 pm:

      “I see GA Ponsonby has wrote his last article (or so he says) for personal reasons, but I can’t help feeling it’s as much disillusionment with the YES movement as anything else
      maybe it’s just me.

      I may be wrong but I read his comment as saying it was his last article on that particular website. I very much doubt he will not post articles or comments elsewhere. I do very much hope I an right, though.

    179. Phronesis says:

      The sin of hybris -outrageous arrogance. The abuse of power, the imposition of your will at all costs preceded by moral blindness – you can do anything you want to and there will be no consequences.
      That and a belief that your citizens are intellectually limited, incapable of researching facts or sharing knowledge and are globally isolated marks the beginning of the end of Empire 2. It didn’t last long as Empires go – lacking advocates of civic patriotism, courage, financial and political common sense.

    180. Robert Peffers says:

      @Bill McLean says: 1 November, 2017 at 4:28 pm:

      “Whatever religion Murdo Fraser claims to follow, he does it little credit!”

      I believe there is little doubt that Fraser follows, as best be believes, Christianity. Did you perhaps mean, Bill, whatever sect of Christianity he follows?

      Again there is no doubt that he does indeed follow, (cough!), follow a protestant sect of Christianity.

      However you are correct he does neither Christianity nor any sect of Christianity any credit – but what sectarian has ever done so?

    181. Alex Clark says:

      @Phronesis

      Well said, you’ve just described the leaders of the “free west” in a couple of paragraphs.

    182. ronnie anderson says:

      He didnae Fall on his own sword Tories dont do that Tick Tock

    183. Ken500 says:

      Nissan got £2Billion to start manufacture electric cars. More pledged later? A special Brexit deal?

      Great news. No charges for Stu. Knew that would be the outcome. Too many people are put in cells on malicious charges that can never come to court. It should be stopped. A total waste of public money. .

      Another one hits the dust. Fallon. Another one hits the dust. More to come? What a shambles. A complete incompetent mess. A disgrace.

    184. louis.b.argyll says:

      It’s all about Westminster’s mismanagement of Scotland’s affairs.

      Malicious or otherwise, they’ve ground us into the dirt long enough.

      With our world class universities at our disposal throughout our oil boom, we’d have yeilded patents and driven tech and tesearch, like the Norwegians. Who incidentally are now bankrolling the Saudis.

    185. Robert Peffers says:

      @Doug Bryce says: 1 November, 2017 at 4:35 pm:

      “We should also be looking to the UN – they have guidelines on self determination and are the appropriate organisation to apply pressure.”

      The UN has already issued a condemnation of Spain’s violent actions but several UN member states including both the USA and the UK have supported Spain. Which means that the UN has already lost some of its credibility as has the EU but they both have not actually debated not voted upon the Catalan matter as an organisation.

      The USA, in particular are very obviously hypocrites in that they not only declared themselves as independent from the United Kingdom but did so by a bloody war.

    186. heedtracker says:

      Derek Bateman?
      @DerekBateman2
      Follow Follow @DerekBateman2

      Colonel Ruth Davidson the obvious successor as Defence Secretary…

    187. mike d says:

      Robert peffers.9.14pm.i meant they never done us any favours pre 2014 indy ref.they took westminsters side. And after events in Catalonia,I believe they would still say it was a westminster issue.

    188. One_Scot says:

      Lol, Fallon resigns for putting his hand on a knee ten years ago, aye right, what’s he really hiding.

    189. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      What I would gently like to remind everyone re the EU is that to be a full member is to have worldwide influence. To not be a member is to abdicate that possibility. The whole point of independence is surely to amplify power, not diminish it.

      Just imagine, for example, that we had achieved independence in 2014 and were full EU members now, as was the undisputed intention at the time. Our government would now have been speaking up for Catalonia, possibly even be the first to recognise them, and be able to offer their representatives political asylum if necessary.

      Just how great would that not have been? And even might be in the near future if we play our cards right, since it may be over to us again to lead the way now.

      Real power exercised with principle, to shame the equivocators.

      Without that membership, we can just sit on the sidelines wringing our collective hands and moaning about how unfair life can be.

      Oh, and BTW, please don’t confuse the EU with the Eurozone. The two overlap but are not the same thing. The Greek situation is complex, not reducible to simple slogans, and those who presume to speak for them most also seem to conveniently forget that the Greeks intend to remain both in the EU and in the eurozone. The advantages seem obvious enough to them, at least.

    190. One_Scot says:

      WTF, The BBC handling Fallon with kid gloves and treating him like a victim. Can you imagine if this was an SNP minister.

    191. Rock says:

      Alex Clark,

      “O/T
      President of European Parliament Antonio Tajani, speaking of Puigdemont:

      “Tajani noted that Carles Puigdemont came to Brussels as a European citizen to enjoy all freedoms. Tajani added that Puigdemont had not escaped the dictatorship such as North Korea or Venezuela. On the contrary, Spain is an example of true democracy. The ousted leader Catalonia violated both the laws of Catalonia, and the constitution of the EU member state.

      At the same time, the head of the EP considers that the EU should not be concerned about Carles Puigdemont’s fate.””

      Rock (1st November – “Playing by Madrid Rules”):

      “The EU and powerful leaders of EU members have made it perfectly clear that the referendum was illegal and that Catalonia is not welcome in the EU.”

      Dave McEwan Hill:

      “Provide some evidence for this statement.

      The EU has pointed out that the Spanish Government judges the referendum illegal and the EU has made no statement that Catalonia is not welcome in the EU. The notion that the EU would prevent an independent Catalonia being a member is absurd.”

      Still looking for evidence, Dave McEwan Hill?

    192. Ken500 says:

      Tory MP complains because of higher employment in Scotland. Less folk are joining the Army. Unemployment was always higher in Scotland so more people joined the Army fir a ‘career’. 80% of the services were from Scotland.

      The Tories ruined the Oil & Gas sector. Illegally high taxes. 40% tax since Jan 2016. Stppped more explorations and production since 2010. Osbourne increased taxes 11% (£2Billlion) up to 80% When the price fell 75%. It was taxed at 62%. Losing 120,000 jobs and £Billions. £28Billion++. More Gas has to be imported. From Norway and fracked Gas from the US.

      Fracked Gas in the rest of the UK is tax free. They pay no tax at all. No Corporatiin tax? etc. The Tories banned onshore wind turbines in England. They are wasting £Billions on nuclear. Hinkley Point a total waste of public money. With far better, safer, cheaper alternatives. They are flying nuclear waste around the world. Appalling.

    193. Alex Clark says:

      It really is just time now to remind ourselves just exactly what a fair and free vote under Spanish law meant just exactly 1 month ago in Catalonia.

      I don’t apologise for posting this and I would have expected the EU to do more to condemn it. It shames them that they haven’t.

      This is FASCISM in action. Watch, remember and never forget. The EU needs to rid ourselves of this type, not support them. I am so angry at the ignorance and the reporting of this total disgrace.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APsHNIrS7-s

    194. ronnie anderson says:

      Fallon resigns, who’s next Damian Green . Popeye to be the next defence secretary, distraction resignations there’s more to follow . Lisa Nandy wrote to Teresa 2 years ago about sexual harassmen /bullying , what did she do nothing, she’ll now consult her notes from that time & find another carpet to sweep things under .

    195. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Sir Michael ‘Frigate Factory on the Clyde’ Fallon:

      http://archive.is/8krEA

      “In 2013, our Defence Secretary Michael Fallon – who witnesses say was visibly drunk – had to be forcibly separated from an attractive woman by a government minder at a posh party.”

      “The woman turned out to be a Russian spy – who had been paid to work as a honey-trap by a Russian energy company with close ties to Putin.”

      I though the BritNat Media loved a bit of ‘close ties to Putin’ stuff.

      I mean RadioShortbreid canna usually get enough of it when it’s aboot Trump.

    196. Robert Peffers says:

      @schrodingers cat says: 1 November, 2017 at 5:05 pm:

      ” … the eu’s hands are tied, we all know this, the real issue is that the eu is currently applauding the violence by spanish police.”

      How many times must the point be made before it sinks in?

      The EU has said nothing as yet as the EU. They cannot issue a statement as the EU parliament until after there has been an official EU parliament debate and an official EU parliament vote.

      What we have is certain official who must obviously be stating either their own, or their own member state’s opinions. Remember that every member state in the EU, regardless of size has a veto over all EU parliamentary decisions.

      Far as I know the EU parliament has not held a debate and thus made no decision about the Spain/Catalonian situation.

      Certain EU officials may yet find themselves in some rather hot water up over their heads. Furthermore, if the EU fails to protect its Catalan citizens the EU, already under threat from Br UKexit, is in grave danger of losing its sole raison dêtre and will find itself of no further relevance within Europe.

      Lucky, then, there is a successful ready alternative on the side-lines that comply with all EU laws and regulations including those of human rights and self determination.

      Not to mention the far bigger Council of Europe who also have spoken out against Spanish violence in Catalonia.

    197. boris says:

      She should be asked to name the gropers employed at BBC Scotland

      Sexual Harassment and the BBC

      Smith spoke of her distaste at the level of sexist culture she had witnessed almost daily during her previous employment at the BBC.

      Her claim that female staff were regularly pressured into having sex with senior journalists was disappointing since she had done nothing to stop it.

      https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/1000206/sarah-smith-in-blast-at-sexism-at-the-bbc/

    198. Rock says:

      Brian Doonthetoon,

      “Also, I’ve always been pro-EEC, EU, etc. However, the way the EU has reacted to the Catalonia situation has dissapointed me.”

      Unlike clueless pompous armchair pundits like yourself, “bots” can correctly predict events with foresight:

      Rock (19th September – “The warning notice”):

      “The difference is spineless “sovereign” Scots bottled it despite getting a free vote whereas the Catalonians are showing real spine, although they will be crushed by the Spanish state while the EU does little more than make a few noises.”

      Brian Doonthetoon (30th October – Playing by Madrid Rules):

      “So, I’ll type it again – you’re a bot that needs more input into your database.”

      You never answered the questions:

      Did the “sovereign” people of Scotland vote for the Treaty of Union?

      Or was it forced upon them because they were not “sovereign”?

    199. Derek Henry says:

      Some really good articles in the mainstream press over the last week.

      Very impressive. Is the tide turning ?

      1) President Donald Trump’s top economist has an unusual idea for dealing with the problem of long-term unemployment: Just have the government hire people.

      That’s a New Deal-style idea more closely associated with highly progressive Democrats. But Kevin Hassett, the conservative chairman of the White House Council of Economic Advisers, believes some Americans are so disconnected from the workforce that the best idea to get them working again could be a federal jobs program that would ultimately lead to private-sector employment.

      Trumps top economist suggests a job guarentee.

      https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/01/trump-economist-jobs-money-dow-jones-244397

      2) You also have Frances Cappola weighing in with

      How Bank Lending Really Creates Money, And Why The Magic Money Tree Is Not Cost Free

      https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2017/10/31/how-bank-lending-really-creates-money-and-why-the-magic-money-tree-is-not-cost-free/#78e519bc3073

      A piece on state and credit forms of money, and on what ultimately backs them both.

      3) Frances follows up with another piece

      Bank Capital And Liquidity: Sorting Out The Muddle

      https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2017/10/31/bank-capital-and-liquidity-sorting-out-the-muddle/#66f59e44498e

      4) Warren’s video from last year is also very good on youtube.

      Loans Create Deposits: Inside vs Outside Money or commercial bank money creation v’s government money creation.

      This is what the National newspaper should be concentrating on.

    200. Rock says:

      Dave McEwan Hill,

      “The Metro belongs to the Daily Mail group so is most certainly not our friend.”

      The National belongs to the Quest group and is the younger sister of the venomously anti-independence The Herald so is most certainly not our friend.

    201. Alex Clark says:

      A reminder of what ordinary people in Catalonia had to face when wanting to cast a vote under Spanish control.

      Watch and let’s make sure it could never happen here.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APsHNIrS7-s

    202. Robert Peffers says:

      @mike cassidy says: 1 November, 2017 at 6:12 pm:

      “Nothing should be ‘attached’ to indyref2.
      No Eus, eftas, baftas or anything else
      Simple question on independence – yes or no.”

      Well said, that man, I’ll second that.

    203. heedtracker says:

      Hammer of the Scots Severin Carrell has deigned to give some Graun Scotland section time to this news, because ofcourse stinky olde Graun’s Scotland section is soooo over loaded and stuffed full of news, about Scotland. He’s such a dick, sorry not controversial dick:D

      “Stuart Campbell, a controversial pro-independence blogger who writes as Wings Over Scotland, has been cleared of online harassment of a woman in London.

      He was arrested by Avon and Somerset police at his home in Bath in August on suspicion of harassment and malicious communications after the complaint was made to police in south London.

      Campbell, 49, originally from Stirling, was released on bail and bailed again last month. The Metropolitan police said on Wednesday they had investigated the allegations and were taking no further action.”

    204. Rock says:

      heedtracker,

      “Hammer of the Scots Severin Carrell has deigned to give some Graun Scotland section time to this news,”

      (Almost Ex-)Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex-)girlfriend, you will have some withdrawal symptons as when you gave up smoking, but be brave like a Catalonian, don’t give up easily.

      Don’t patronise the lying, war mongering, British Nationalist rag which blocked you despite centuries of loyalty.

    205. Robert Peffers says:

      I see Rock has arrived. Time to go do something else.

      That’ll please him as that is his aim but thing is I’ve neglected things I really should be doing. As someone, I cannot remember who, once, (at lest), said, I’ll be back – and God help us, he was.

    206. Meg merrilees says:

      Sir Michael Fallon has resigned as Defence Minister – how the mighty have fallen!

    207. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers,

      “I see Rock has arrived. Time to go do something else.”

      Why don’t you have your own site and blog?

      Why haven’t you ever written a book on the history of the union?

    208. John H. says:

      I’ve written to Tesco to inform them that my wife and I spend over £200 a week in their stores (including car fuel). If they remove the Saltire from their produce we will do our shopping elsewhere. Their reply, if there is one, should be interesting.

    209. heedtracker says:

      Owen Jones ??Verified account @OwenJones84 3h3 hours ago

      Right, you lot, I’m on @bbcquestiontime this week trying to fly the flag for socialism, wish me luck! #bbcqt

      Good luck Owen!

      Also poor little Owen, will only have three other very hard core yoons on his UKOK/SNP bad side too, against one SNP.

      Could be a UKOK beeb gimp hoot n half though, Dugdale, a tory Brexiteer roaster/Ligger Neil fav boy, some non entity from the Economist, because its such a liberal and progressive mag and Owen Jones, who lies about his Scotland region as easy any other UKOK hack out there.

    210. Rock says:

      I very much hope that the Rev. Stuart Campbell will name his accuser in his next article.

      I suspect it was someone from within Scottish Labour but I may be completely wrong.

    211. Cadogan Enright says:

      The Rev’s reputation being stained by the BBC and others (no smoke without etc) they can chunter about him being arrested and play down that there was never any case.

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/15633155.Wings_Over_Scotland_hits_out_at__insane__ridiculous_farce__after_learning_he_faces_no_further_police_action/

      What about a fundraiser for chasing a case of wrongful arrest?

      Was Police time wasted by the 30 year old anon?

    212. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Robert Peffers I ken whit you mean am aff tae Grate inging’s fur the bolognazi sauce lol.

    213. heedtracker says:

      What’s the money on beeb gimps having on the journalist and owner of the WoS blog, on their BBC QT comedy hour? too controversial for the beeb gimp network clearly.

      But you never know.

      Yes you do:D

    214. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Rock at 10.53
      I thought it was a journalist with the Daily Express.

    215. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers,

      “@mike cassidy says: 1 November, 2017 at 6:12 pm:

      “Nothing should be ‘attached’ to indyref2.
      No Eus, eftas, baftas or anything else
      Simple question on independence – yes or no.”

      Well said, that man, I’ll second that.”

      Would you have seconded it if I had said it?

      Rock (24th July 2015 – “The unpayable ransom”):

      “Next time there should be no white paper from the Scottish Government.

      Just immediate independence following a Yes vote, followed by a general election within three months where the different parties set out their policies and proposals on how to negotiate the terms with Westminster.

      The “sovereign” people of Scotland can then decide which policies they want to vote for.”

    216. Rock says:

      Dave McEwan Hill,

      “Rock at 10.53
      I thought it was a journalist with the Daily Express.”

      You might be mixing this up with Craig Murray’s accuser.

      But as I wrote, I could be completely wrong.

    217. heedtracker says:

      John H. says:
      1 November, 2017 at 10:50 pm
      I’ve written to Tesco to inform them that my wife and I spend over £200 a week in their stores (including car fuel). If they remove the Saltire from their produce we will do our shopping elsewhere. Their reply, if there is one, should be interesting.”

      You should. I have got quite fat scoffing Morrisons filled doughnuts, caramel, oh baby.

      Anyway Morrisons used to sell them in a big union jack box, of five, and I used to moan at the extremely attractive Morrison’s customer services lady, who thought it was funny, she’s not British, and it is.

      Anyway, Morrisons no longer sell their boxes of five doughnuts in giant union jack boxes. There is still an ickle wickle union jack on the side of the box though.

      But I’m on it. Great excuse to chat up very attractive customer services lady, although the double chin probably wont cut it:D

    218. meg merrilees says:

      Ruth Davidson wins Parliamentarian of the Year award. Her tweet:

      “The house clearing that is about to happen needs to happen”… so Ruth Davidson are you going to start with your own house and clear out the rogue Tory councillors in Stirling and elsewhere and the dodgy MSP’s???

      …or are you a hypocrite???

    219. Alex Clark says:

      You’d think no one wanted you to see this as the posts come thick and fast so I’m posting the same link again. Ignore if you have already watched and apologies if you feel I’m being over sensitive.

      We must never forget what the idea of Spanish democracy looks like and why we should support Catalonia in pursuit of their version.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APsHNIrS7-s

    220. Ken500 says:

      Goods have to be labelled where they come from. The source. EU regulations. Sometimes companies can flaunt the rules. Use subsidiaries etc. If they get caught they can get prosecuted fined etc. Recent chicken factory scandal. Health and safety inspectors are supposed to check. UK Gov doesn’t help. Many of these conglomerates donate to unionist political parties. To bend the rules. The cost of bailing out ‘mad cow’ etc. £Billions.

    221. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Cadogan Enright {That’s all we’ll be saying on the subject at this time }. If Im not mistaken the Rev isn’t finished in pursuing this , either through the Police or the person themselves , nor should he , his reputation not to mention his livelihood & the popularity of this WoS site .

      Whatever the Rev’s intentions are he knows we’re 100% behind him .

    222. ronnie anderson says:

      http://www.facebook.com/MareeToddMSP/videos/2280300352196506/?fref=gs&dti=520164458118370&hc_location=group

      A very appropriate answer , Well mr Brewster answer the bloody question DID YOU ever sexualy harass anybody .

    223. louis.b.argyll says:

      Bribery and coercion of MPs to pass legislation is about as corrupt as you can get.

      Why aren’t the people of England up in arms?

      And Corbyn’s known about all these party-whip corruptions for years.

      He’s shuffled through the lobbies, taken his salary and filled his own expenses regardless. Westminster though and through, by the few for the few.

      Makes you wonder about Labour motivation, Hillary Benn, so emotionally pro-trident etc.. Just saying..

    224. schrodingers cat says:

      RP
      the eu parlaiment hasnt voted on the catalan issue…..

      Manfred Weber leader of eu peoples party alliance 216 meps

      “In a speech to the parliament, he said: “A Catalonian government without a majority of votes in the last election is using all means for this escalation. “We cannot accept such behaviour. Europe is built on the rule of law. Spain is built on the rule of law.”

      Gianni Pittella leader of demsocs 196 meps
      “Puigdemont clearly hasn’t realized the major illegality and danger he’s brought to Catalonia and Spain.”

      Syed Kamall leader of eu tory alliance 74 meps (hint, he is from london)
      supports a catalan indyref???

      guy verhofstadt leader of eu libdems
      we know exactly what he thinks

      these people represent the 4 largest fractions in the eu parlaiment
      to say they are only expressing a personal opinion and not the eu parlaiment is like saying that theresa, corbyn and cable are also expressing personal opinions and that the uk parliament hasnt expressed a view.

      can we also say that nicola is only expressing a personal view and that the scottish parliament has no opinion??

      this is not how everyone perceives the situation, they see scotland supporting the catalans and westminster and the eu opposing them. I could be wrong but none of these parlaiments have had a vote on the issue.

      the eu has done great good for scotland. but i am disappointed by its response to cataunya, pretending that the eu has said nothing doesnt wash

    225. Andrew says:

      I as many others on this site are delighted to see the pathetic charges against Stuart being dropped ,I have been sent to Coventry in my house for loosing the plot on current affairs on our so called news outlets.
      Without exception news outlets have spent the last three days on sex scandal in our various parliaments , is it just me or is all this smoke and mirrors just hiding the dreadful truth of the terrible state our country is in, I in no way condone any of this terrible behaviour but I am getting very tired of this dominating the news when we as a nation are in such terminable decline and self destruction.
      News on Scottish tv is beyond embarrassing, the level of reporting is pathetic, kittens up trees, dying dolphins and football WTF !
      I could go on for ages but I can’t type fast enough to express my frustration and utter contempt for the appalling media in all mediums, their utter lack of proper news reporting and the pathetic level of challenging questions of politicians and reportage reporters making a living out of talking shite is the reason for me throwing my toys out the pram and having to sleep in th spare bedroom!

    226. Hamish100 says:

      Q- if you do a “Tom Gordon” is this something to be ashamed off?

      Yes

    227. yesindyref2 says:

      I suspect it was someone from within Scottish Labour but I may be completely wrong.

      Delicious. It’s good to laugh laugh laugh.

      100% wrong as always.

    228. Andrew says:

      I as many others on this site are delighted to see the pathetic charges against Stuart being dropped ,I have been sent to Coventry in my house for loosing the plot on current affairs on our so called news outlets.
      Without exception news outlets have spent the last three days on sex scandal in our various parliaments , is it just me or is all this smoke and mirrors just hiding the dreadful truth of the terrible state our country is in, I in no way condone any of this terrible behaviour but I am getting very tired of this dominating the news when we as a nation are in such terminable decline and self destruction.
      News on Scottish tv is beyond embarrassing, the level of reporting is pathetic, kittens up trees, dying dolphins and football WTF !
      I could go on for ages but I can’t type fast enough to express my frustration and utter contempt for the appalling media in all mediums, their utter lack of proper news reporting and the pathetic level of challenging questions of politicians and reportage reporters making a living out of talking shite is the reason for me throwing my toys out the pram and having to sleep in the spare bedroom!

    229. louis.b.argyll says:

      Why should anyone trust what the BBC says in matters of sexual harassment and cover-ups?

      The BBC should get back to reporting facts only. With opinions coming from more elected representatives like leading councillors, as well as academic circles.

      Get keunsberg and other ‘chief editors’ to look for quotes, get info, background, from a variety of balanced sources, they’ve had all day.

      Instead we get 5 wasted minutes of their predictable opinion.

    230. louis.b.argyll says:

      Indeed Andrew..

    231. yesindyref2 says:

      @louis.b.argyll: “Why should anyone trust what the BBC says in matters of sexual harassment and cover-ups?

      Because they’re experts at it, probably the best in the world.

    232. heedtracker says:

      75% crash in car maker investment says FT.

      So on a day when Fuhrage came out of the UKIP nazi closet, so shocking, FT toryboy’s slither this out. Fluffie Mundell wont tell us how Brexit is really going to make us much the poorer, from UK gov’s own economic forecasters,

      Car industry asks May for ‘urgent clarity’ on Brexit

      Investment in sector has fallen 75% amid uncertainty over future trade relations

      FT

      Peter Campbell, Motor Industry Correspondent

      UK car industry executives have warned Theresa May they need “urgent clarity” on the trading relationship with the EU in order to make fresh investments in the country’s automotive sector.

      Senior executives from Jaguar Land Rover, Ford and BMW were among more than a dozen leaders from carmakers and auto parts suppliers who met Mrs May and Greg Clark, the business secretary, on Wednesday afternoon — the first such meeting between the prime minister and leaders from the sector.

      Businesses need clarity “as soon as possible” to allow them to make investment decisions in the UK, the prime minister was told, according to one executive present.

      “We did make it clear that this industry is in the process of making decisions, that need for clarity was there,” said the person. “The industry is going through tremendous change, and Brexit is a layer of complexity added to that.”

      Investment in Britain’s automotive industry has fallen by 75 per cent in two years, largely because of uncertainty created by Britain’s vote to leave the EU.

      Didier Leroy, executive vice-president of Toyota, last week described uncertainty over Britain’s future relationship with the EU as a “fog” hanging over the sector.

      Mike Hawes, chief executive of industry lobby group the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, was also present and said: “The meeting focused on our members’ Brexit priorities — in particular, the urgent need for clarity on the proposed transition agreement as business needs certainty to invest.”

      The UK’s car plants are reliant on exports, with 80 per cent of cars made in Britain sold abroad, while more than half of the components used in UK-made cars coming from overseas.

    233. louis.b.argyll says:

      Yesindyref2,

      Aye the BBC lays it on thick.

      Slimey, elitist stuck-up Britain at it’s best, protecting the most pish, posh, pile of stolen shite.

    234. meg merrilees says:

      Andrew

      Completely agree…

      e.g. it’s now 25minutes past midnight and BBC R4 is only now mentioning the fact that WM is legislating for N. Ireland for the first time in a decade…
      In Plain english that means that WM has assumed Direct Rule WITH EVERYTHING THAT COULD IMPLY but let’s not frighten the horses, eh, old chap!!!

      Now they’re talking about Puigdemont and the possibility of him being interviewed by a video link to the Spanish court – oh, that story is finished now – 3 lines.

      We’ve just had 15 minutes talking about Fallon being dismissed for touching someone’s knee – how honourable???

      No mention of the Labour motion in parliament forcing the gov to reveal the Brexit Assessments, no mention of the worries in the Car manufacturing sector about the impact of brexit and no mention of a Saudi led air strike hitting a market place thronged with civilians killing at least 26 people.

      Oh look an ostrich…

    235. schrodingers cat says:

      just fyi

      Gabriele Zimmer leader of EU Left–Nordic-Green 52 meps
      condemned the violence

      Rebecca Harms leader of EU Greens 51 meps
      condemned the violence

      no guesses as to what the rest think

      nigel farage leader of EU Freedom/Direct Democracy 45 meps
      marine la pen leader of EU nats 37

      11 meps non affiliated

    236. louis.b.argyll says:

      The car ‘industry’.

      Another rap-sheet of Tory Labour UK failure.

      From industry leaders to mere franchise managers.

      All gone, despite gold in the bank and help from all those great UK trade unions.

    237. schrodingers cat says:

      heedtracker says:
      2 November, 2017 at 12:18 am

      75% crash in car maker investment says FT.

      that is pretty damning stat and the car manufacturers comments are about as severe a last warning as it is possible to give.
      i wonder what, they said to theresa, would happen if there is no transition deal?

      not good i imagine.
      theresa’s nightmare is about to get a lot worse

    238. schrodingers cat says:

      meg merrilees

      noticed that, i even watched 10 bbc news tonight, 1st time in ages, nothing about brexit dossier vote in hoc, or catalunya, or NI, just tory sex scandal. i thought that would probably be on newsnight, but into showed entire programm was about tory sex scandal….. i switched tv off

    239. Andrew says:

      Walked the dog and had time to reflect ….WTF, news still spuing pish about sex offenders and America up in arms because a so called Muslim ran over some cyclists which is utterly appalling but the American president goes ballistic accusing all Muslims when he can’t even take a clear look at home to the white Christian American who thought it was ok to shoot over 50 people in Las Vegas, what a fucked up world we live in.

    240. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Yes, it is interesting to observe just how differently Stu is treated compared to Fallon. A clearly unwarranted complaint is a very convenient excuse for a fishing expedition on Stu, but Fallon is gently shown the door because his alleged inappropriate behaviour over several years suddenly got accidental attention due to the Weinstein backlash. Whatever Fallon was actually doing was presumably well known to the security service because of his position, but are we likely to see an arrest? I very much doubt it.

      As for Stu’s accuser, one hopes that the police might now be devoting as much effort to deciding if they were simply being used as a means for “harassment by proxy”, and taking the appropriate action if so. We’ll see. But I ain’t holding my breath on that either.

    241. schrodingers cat says:

      ha ha ha ha ha ha

      Alex Salmond joins rebellion to oust Johnston Press board with chairman bid http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/11/01/alex-salmond-joins-rebellion-oust-johnston-press-board-chairman/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw … via @telebusiness

      alex to be chairman of johnston press

      lol, i just applied for a job asking if i can be the moderator btl on the scotsman

      canny stop laughing

    242. Still Positive says:

      As Macart and others have said previously we are in unprecented waters and more is to come re sex scandal. Fallon is the tip of the iceberg re Tory sex scandals. I hope the government do fall over this.

      We then have hope over another PM giving us a S30 order to have a legally binding indyref2 soon.

    243. schrodingers cat says:

      Still Positive
      the government wont fall, these tories will lose their jobs in the cabinet but will still be mps, no change to electoral arithmatic. half of the current tory mps about 140, would need to back a motion of no confidence to bring down government and precipitate another ge

    244. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Still Positive @ 01:28,

      They can and will hang on by their finger nails if necessary until a government-supporting MP or two is forced to resign. If they understand nothing else, the Tories know full well the gulf between being in power and not being in power.

      So much for “strong and stable”, though. Even if they do manage to cling on, the reputational damage of this on top of Brexit might finally provide the tipping point for enough “hesitant-no’s” here. Assuming we have enough of a killer instinct to press home the advantage.

      But let’s not fool ourselves. A Corbyn-led government isn’t going to be any more inclined to agree to an S30 unless they’re really forced to by electoral arithmetic. (Ie. there aren’t too many Scottish idiots who fall for the con that Corbyn is their Saviour.)

    245. Highland Wifie says:

      Had decided I wasn’t going to post while away on family visit but hey, somebody started to talk about food standards and as I’ve been experiencing good old USA supermarkets for a few weeks I feel qualified to comment. Will get to that anon.

      Meanwhile I’m pure raging about Tesco replacing our saltire with that uj rag on Scottish produce. It’s a creeping disease that needs to be stopped in its tracks. Supermarket of choice now has to be Aldi even though it’s a long round trip for me. The Co-op has been sticking the uj on everything and it’s getting harder to avoid.
      Anyway was delighted to see that someone has taken up the fight with a Twitter hashtag KeepScotlandTheBrand where you can post examples of British rebranding of Scottish goods by companies. Found a link from there to ‘the bonny badge company’ where you can buy mini saltire stickers (for anyone who has the time or the inclination to be busy doing our own rebranding).

      On the subject of the prospect of US imported food I can tell you, based on my recent experience, that it is to be avoided at all costs. Chlorinated chicken aside, I struggle to find unadulterated food at an affordable price. Everything, including the bread, is full of sugar and high fructose corn syrup. Don’t even look at the lists of ingredients on the average pack – much worse than at home. The bread seems to last for ever without freezing (very worrying). Free range eggs the exception rather than the rule and when you do find them are very expensive. Meat and poultry divided between the animals that have been stuffed with hormones and the organic (hugely more expensive). Even the old neep for Hallowe’en was coated in a strange wax. No wonder they use pumpkins. And don’t get me started on chocolate. Apparently Hershey’s don’t allow the British version of Cadbury’s chocolate to be sold here, only the US made one, because they don’t want anyone here to taste the real thing. No kidding!
      In fairness I love pumpkin spiced anything and nowhere does a hotdog or a burger like America. (Don’t want to upset the in-laws)
      It’s late here now so I guess I’m only talking to the insomniacs back home. Am enjoying keeping up with Wings while I’m here. It hasn’t been dull the last few weeks has it?! Greetings to everyone from across the pond.

    246. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      This sexy harrassment stuff is too perfect a storm.

    247. Snode1965 says:

      Jane Freeman represents the SNP on Question Time tonight. Going up against Dugdale and Owen Smith. Might gamble with my own mental health and watch it. 😉

    248. Ken500 says:

      Westminster full of perverts. Abusing people. Starving vulnerable people. Hollywood full of perverts. Abusing people. BBC full of perverts. Abusing people. Football full of perverts. Abusing people. Breaking the Law at every opportunity.

      They are all rubbish.

      The Tories can be voted down and out. That will happen soon. Down and out. Trying to save themselves by abstaining. It will not work.

      Alcoholic Fallon. Trident (cocaine). Selling weapons to absolute despot monarchy abusive perverts to kill and maim innocent people. Ruining the world economy, Causing the worst migrant crisis since 11WW, abusing people.

      The Police abusing innocent people. On false charges that can never come to court. Trying to traumatise people. A total waste of public money. Minimum pricing would reduce crime and save money. Five wasted years to bring it in because of Westminster intransigence. Four months for a decision. Westminster unionist abuse starving and killing people, worldwide. To embezzle and waste public money on groteque projects of no value. No one wants. To line their and their cronies pockets. Cutting essential public services. Everyone wants, uses and needs. The Tory criminal sycophants.

      A lawyer touting for business admits they did nothing about abuse but accuses others.

    249. Les Wilson says:

      Quite excited about the possibility of A.Salmond becoming the chairman of Johnston press. He says it must be pro Scottish and will return it’s head office to Scotland.

      Well,that will be one in the eyes of Westminster.
      Real news will be the mantra that will have them worried alone.

      It also is a great chance to have the Scotsman regain ground and return to the respected Scottish paper it once was. They will also use digital services to help get it back on it’s feet.
      So let’s hope Alex is successful, it seems like a well thought out move.

      It would also have other publications it could dabble with, Westminster will really love that, not!

    250. Breeks says:

      I am deeply, deeply, suspicious of this sexual harassment exposé.

      A minister is brought down for touching the knee of a journalist? Shock! Horror! Michael Fabricant says “It wusnae me! Ah wis drunk! It disnae count!”.

      I certainly wouldn’t want to dredge up all the sleaze and sexual indiscretions of the Westminster “elite” in the past, but without belittling the most recent harassment which of course should be taken very seriously, it strikes me Westminster’s newly discovered moral outrage smells a little iffy to me considering the depravity which Westminster has turned a blind eye towards in the past.

      Take Fallon; I think most of us got the measure of Fallon’s political integrity from his pathetic interview with Bernard Ponsonby, but is seems strange that he would prefer his political epitaph to read “sex pest” when he might otherwise have retired from politics with a degree of integrity had he chosen to resign over reneging on the warship contracts promised for Scotland. I should qualify that of course, – who knows what further revelations are to come?

      Whole thing reeks of political distraction. May is conflating the issue to distract from the omnishambles of Brexit. The shadows are gathering, and the sands of time are running out.

    251. Les Wilson says:

      Highland Wifie says

      Yes that is what we are in for if we leave the EU, full of chemicals of all kinds. Anything for a buck Tories will be rubbing their hands together, but hey, they will not eat it, they can afford not to.
      They are also trying to bury the Scottish brands, which is utterly shameful.

      Maybe Scottish farmers and food producers will start at las,t to realise just what this means for their good endeavors to make Scottish food a cut above turn to dust, if they do not protest very very loudly over what is happening.

    252. Ken500 says:

      The unionists Parties cause mental health problems. They are a disgrace. Appalling. No wonder no one joins them. In their abuse and destruction.

      Cut NHS funding £20Billion. (£4Billion a year) Cut welfare benefits £18Billion. (£3Billion a year) Cut education £6Billion a year. (Total £13Billion a year)

      Spending £Billions on Hinkley Point, HS2, Trident and Heathrow. £500Billion. £40Billion? a year. That no one wants, There are safer, more cost effective, credible alternatives. Half the cost.

      Increase Oil & Gax tax. 40% since Jan 2013. Losing £Billions. The north/south divide. Tories illegal unequal taxes Fracked Gas in the rest of the UK tax free. No tax. No corporation tax? etc. The Tories have banned wind turbines in England. Les investment in solar, wind, tidal, wave. A flawed energy and gas policy. Total ignorant incompetence.

    253. Dorothy Devine says:

      Who would have thought that Fallon would become a squirrel?

      I do hope some overseas journalist – for it would have to be an overseas journalist – has a closer look at this convenient resignation.

      Perhaps they will find that minders are needed on a very permanent basis and not just during interviews with Mr Ponsonby and not just for Fallon!

      Meanwhile it’s another good day to bury bad news.

      As for the article in the once mighty Herald about you Stu – words fail me. I am assuming the Herald is desperate to lose readership and shut down though I am not up to date with the circulation figures and would be grateful if some kind soul can enlighten me.

    254. starlaw says:

      Fallon is just the first rat to jump ship.
      He will reappear in a new set up to oust Theresa May. Typical Tory.

    255. Macart says:

      On these scandals? The scale of the distraction gives you an idea of the scale of the real story.

      So basically when ministers fall on their swords or are implicated in anything, when a list of MPs are threatened with exposure, when parliament itself is called into disrepute…

      … Just how bad are the impact reports of brexit?

      I’m guessing pretty bad.

    256. Ken500 says:

      US banned transfats. Lower car emission than Europe. 4 times lower. States are providing renewables. Drink/drive age limit, 21. Healthy with less crime and accidents? Parents can buy alcohol for their children (lower age – in home?) in 37 States but not for other people’s children. Drunkenness is not accepted. Healthy living encouraged but Laws not actively to discouraged.

      Breaking International Law. Multinationals can through patents and copywrite create a monopoly and charge what they like. Pay no taxes on vast profits. Unfair competition breaking International free trade Laws. With impunity. Brexit is a disaster. So Tories and their cronies can continue to tax evade.

      US illegal wars and gun crime. Higher crime statistics. Culling 26,000 a year. (18,000 gun). Homicides Self medication killing people. Non prescription medicine. Half of US funds raised goes on the military. £Trns in debt. A military state. Destroying world resources. Terrorism disproportion to other criminal activity. Causing it.

      Johnstone next sex pest to go? Chequered history of lies and deceit.

    257. Legerwood says:

      In the wake of Mr Fallon’s resignation be prepared for the media and the opposition parties to come hunting with vigour and viciousness for an SNP ‘scandal’. That is their usual modus operandi when something like this afflicts a unionist party.

    258. louis.b.argyll says:

      The reason,
      ..as many have asked here and on twitter.

      ..that no UK TYPE JOURNALISTS expose direct hate speech, sectarianism, corruptability etc..

      Is because they want to be on the right/wrong side when this whole shebang comes tumbling down.

      Because they don’t see their silence as being complicit.

      They think we’ll all go back in the box soon and forget, collectively.

    259. Nana says:

      Coveney reiterates Irish role in administering Good Friday Agreement
      http://archive.is/6ycfp

      What’s the Economic Cost of Brexit? Pineapples Tell a Tale
      http://archive.is/8KwFx

      An assessment of the economic impact of Brexit on the EU27
      http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2017/595374/IPOL_STU(2017)595374_EN.pdf

      http://www.oliverwyman.com/our-expertise/insights/2016/oct/The-impact-of-Brexit-on-the-UK-based-Financial-Services-sector.html

    260. Ken500 says:

      Interests in Scotland could buy up the Press. Scotsman? going down the tubes fast. Rev Stu could be the Editor. All the right credentials. Great research etc. BBC further demise. No listeners or viewers. No Brewer. Perverts and abuse at the BBC. No reprimand or action taken. Bigots, racist misogynistic. Criminal UKIP promoters.

      The Scottish Gov could buy back Oil & Gas interests. Imagine having to buy back own resources. Activity increasing.

    261. Macart says:

      Mornin’ Nana

      Another good crop you’ve got there and here’s one more to add which the Rev just posted on twatter.

      https://archive.is/zwgZ1

    262. Abulhaq says:

      In the current media theme of sexual fumbling in politics and business we should realise that we are dealing with responsible adults, not unworldly children.
      Do the ‘victims’ really need more protection than as citizens under the law they possess already?
      Sex and power and ambition usually end up in the same room. If you deal in them there will be consequences. It is rather naïve to imagine otherwise. Crying wolf well after the event is more than a little disengenuous too.
      The British and American talent for sexual puritanism and its handmaiden prurience, is also manifest here. The world watches with bemusement.

    263. Dorothy Devine says:

      OT but has anyone seen the Spanish governments accusation in the Canary? It accuses Julien Assange , Yoko Ono and a host of other celebrities from around the world of ‘ encouraging’ the Catalan independence vote.

      And Dan Snow , David Bowie , Obama , Judie Dench and various other pleaders sprang lithely to mind – not to mention the foolish chap with the cairns and the beacons.

    264. Nana says:

      Good morning Macart

      I posted that article along with some others, I’ve figured out why they have not appeared as yet. One of them had the banned r word, only noticed it now.

      Did you spot the express front page? Fallon a Scots mp all of a sudden, never seen him having that title before now, funny that.

      http://www.norgroveblog.co.uk/2017/11/brexit-time-for-flippancy-is-over.html

      http://evolvepolitics.com/tory-mp-anna-soubry-says-deputy-pm-damian-green-should-be-suspended-from-the-party/

      https://skwawkbox.org/2017/11/01/video-may-reduced-to-pmqs-incoherence-over-tory-whips-use-of-sex-abuse-info/

    265. Marcia says:

      On Radio 4 this morning the headlines had Davidson saying that the Tories ‘needed a clearout of the stables’ at Westminster. Well she needs to look at the ‘Scottish’ Tory councillors that need clearing out too.

    266. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Nana On reading your link to Stirling University ( professor Mifsud ) . Im more incensed to see that the Principal of the University has a personal chauffeur, these people dont live in the real world , are these academics worth the remuneration .

    267. Valerie says:

      God, Harpie Brewer certainly milking it for someone who says she wasn’t affected by the knee touching, and dealt with it.

      She said Fallon told her his resignation was nothing to do with her revelation. She was so concerned she had brought down a Minister. So concerned, she has to tour tv studios.

      Given they had to forcibly pull him off a honey trap in the past, it must be suitably dire.

      Him and Hunt are the rare ministers that support her.

      This shit really is of criminal significance, given the mess the country is in.

    268. Baldeagle58 says:

      Morning Nana.

      Just had your links with my early morning coffee. Informative as always. Thanks for posting them. 🙂

    269. heedtracker says:

      There’s definitely something really stinky about Fallon, beeb r4 Today tories chuntering on and on about sex scandals in Westminster, with Murdoch boot boy in chief Trevor Kavanagh, different era, 2005? Colonel Ruth getting nationwide tory r4 beeb gimp spotlight. Really really tory stinky.

    270. Tinto Chiel says:

      *Dons BDTT’s pedant mantle*

      Listening to Pravdasound4 this morning, I heard Tank Girl, aka Stephen Crabb’s bestie, talking about cleaning the Aegean stables, instead of the Augean.

      *Doffs mantle*

      Obvs didn’t have Brian Quail for her Classics teacher or she might know sumfink.

      Is there not a Colossal Gall-Spouter of the Year Award available somewhere for this nasty wee shyster?

      Brewer’s Knee is an establishment distraction from the Real Bad News on Brexit (and wot else, I wonder?). WM has always been a cess-pit, sadly.

    271. Robert Peffers says:

      @meg merrilees says: 1 November, 2017 at 11:04 pm:

      “The house clearing that is about to happen needs to happen”… so Ruth Davidson are you going to start with your own house and clear out the rogue Tory councillors in Stirling and elsewhere and the dodgy MSP’s???”

      I’d be very surprised if she did so.

      …or are you a hypocrite???”

      I think we all know the answer to that question, Meg, but does Ruth Davidson know it?

      Ah hae ma doots.

    272. Nana says:

      Morning Ronnie, I wouldn’t say the principal is a man of principal. I thought universities were strapped for cash, but perhaps he is using his own dosh to make himself appear grand.

      https://www.snp.org/nicola_sturgeon_on_the_key_tests_that_will_guide_discussion_on_income_tax

      Michael Fallon “found the stress of waiting for someone to make a complaint debilitating”:

      the poor lamb
      https://www.facebook.com/pestonitv/posts/1940687379589331

      Thread on what counts as conduct of a sexual nature
      https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/925847614679117824

    273. Macart says:

      @Nana

      No, I hadn’t seen that Express page (constitution not strong enough this time of day). That SCES piece ticks more than a few boxes and is a pretty fair assessment of the current state of play.

      If UK gov ever works up the nerve to publish those impact reports (redacted or not), I’m guessing the feathers will well and truly begin to fly at that point.

    274. donnywho says:

      So he lies about jobs on the Clyde, he only signs a contract for three Ships… remember it was once 13 thirteen.

      But now it is three with the promise of another five sometime in the future. the other five are going south!

      But that’s OK sure it is he was only destroying shipbuilding in JockLand and lying barefaced about it!

      But place a hand on a English Roses Knee, scandal… not what you would expect from a defense secretary.

      Now sexism is wrong abuse is wrong… but does it compare to the systematic deception and destruction of a community and it’s skills.

      Obviously not if that community is Scottish!

    275. Alba 46 says:

      O/T Anybody out their having problems with the online edition of the National?

    276. Alex Clark says:

      @Dorothy Devine

      The Herald circulation figures to end of June 2017 was 27,655. Down 4.2% compared to previous 6 months and down 9% year on year.

      https://archive.is/JS0CU

    277. God, reading that tripe from Kelly and Foulkes etc obviously an asylum is missing some inmates.

    278. Dorothy Devine says:

      Alex , thanks for that – I am horrified to see that the Scotsman has seen a rise in circulation, some mistake surely.

    279. Ken500 says:

      What’s needed is a clear out of the Tories in Scotland. Lying hypocrites. 3rd rate reject liars. D’hondt, STV imposed unionists con people. Scotland did not vote for that. Unionist crooks milking the public purse. Most of them should be in jail. Lying sycophants. A total waste of time, space and money. FPTP would wipe them out. Stinking, dirty, perverted liars.

      Ruth Davidson ‘politician’ of the year. What a shameful joke. They are abusing, starving and killing vulnerable people. She is culpable. Lying sycophants. Ruining the world economy. Breaking International Law. No wonder no one joins unionist Parties, especially in Scotland.

    280. jfngw says:

      Fallon acting if he is some sort of martyr becomes main news item, ensures Brexit dossier is not main story, how convenient. Willingly promoted to top by compliant media and populace that don’t seem to see they are being manipulated again.

      Brexit too complicated, politicians with their trousers down, now there’s something we can get our teeth into.

    281. HandandShrimp says:

      While it certainly true that consciousness of what constitutes inappropriate behaviour has risen over the last 15 years, drunkenly fondling someone’s knee was a red line even then. However, Brewer seems none too bothered and seems to have handled the situation assertively at the time. Consequently, I’m guessing he has resigned because there are more recent incidents awaiting revelation…that or he just wanted out of the Brexit mess and this as good a juncture as any.

      I will be surprised if Fallon is the only casualty in and out of politics, it looks like the dam has burst and consciousness has suddenly lurched up a couple of notches. It may have been acceptable in the 80s…but not now.

    282. galamcennalath says:

      From WoS Twitter. Apparently sexual assault and r8pe is OK if everyone is drunk! 🙁

      http://archive.is/vedw0

      Who votes for these people?

    283. heedtracker says:

      Aberdeen – Press & Journal 49,475 -4.6 -8.8 385
      Aberdeen – Evening Express 23,960 -6.9 -12.7 50

      No idea what “bulks” are, given away? P&J is the neo fascist Voice of the North, sold across the north east of Scotland right up to Shetland. Good to see it slide.

      Same P&J have taken the lease on UKOK SLabour catastrofuck of the millenium, local section, Sir Wullie Young’s greatest white elephant, eye sore, city centre ruining carbuncle,

      https://www.musedevelopments.com/case-study/marischal-square-aberdeen

      Sir Wullie lost his lifetime sinecure on ACC last time, but the developers have hit the headlines again because the great yoons of ACC gave them a very tasty contract that meant that, if the developers could not rent out their white elephant, ACC would pay them the rent, on empty offices.

      The offices are all empty, bar the one that the P&J have taken, and wont say for how much.

      Its only £100+ million blown on a white elephant, that’s ruined Aberdeen city centre, again, £100+ million piled on Sir Wullie’s debt mountain of over £1000+ million.

      Its only fackin money, Sir Wullie’s minted, Welcome to yoonster Aberdeen.

    284. Alex Clark says:

      @Dorothy Devine

      Re The Scotsman, it hasn’t really seen a rise it just gave more papers away for free 🙂

      The figure includes 5,344 bulks – more than double the number issued in December and on the same period last year.
      When bulks are removed, the title’s period-to-period growth drops to 8 per cent and its circulation falls to -5 per cent year-on-year.

    285. Robert Graham says:

      Davidson commenting on anyone’s Morals is ,

      (A) Laughable

      (B) Cynical in the excess

      (C) exposes The tory party in all its cesspit sleazy inhabitants , so she would be well served in keeping her Gub Shut .

    286. Tinto Chiel says:

      Alba 46: you betcha.

      Mrs TC has woken me up nice and early every morning this week to complain she can’t access the pagesuite edition as normal.

      😛

    287. heedtracker says:

      Re The Scotsman, it hasn’t really seen a rise it just gave more papers away for free

      They’re clearly sliming online now. Google anything, planet 9, first hundreds of hits in just one search will all be, Heil, Sun, Express, stinky old Graun, Star, and so on.

      Presumably it costs a lot to get to no.1 in google searches, for UKOK hackdom.

      Beeb r4 gimp network news really pushing Colonel Ruth now. Some tories are born to greatness others have it thrust upon them, by massed ranks of beeb gimpery:D

    288. Valerie says:

      Yeah, lest we forget, Davidson tweeted that pic of Gillian Anderson in her stockings.

      I found that incredibly distasteful and nothing to do with her position. So why? It’s an attitude that is endemic. It’s her revolting reference to ‘withdrawing our massive Johnson’. She feels a need to compete for acceptance amongst the nannies boys in London.

      I don’t care what politicians indulge in sexually outside their post, as long as its harmless, consensual and lawful.

      I care that they set this example of denigrating the post of lawmaker. That they seek to normalise this shit, that they deter people from politics.

      It’s not all about men either, women are to blame too. Davidson, as above, and May obviously has a huge role in this shit.

    289. cirsium says:

      @Macart, 8.23am
      Thanks for the interesting link. The article is about the report by Imperial College and the University of Strathclyde on developing Wave energy and has this sentence

      The report concludes with the suggestion that the Scottish Government would be wise to put a ‘strategy’ in place to ensure it can still deliver a wave technology programme ‘that is resilient to the potential withdrawal of UK Government and/or EU funds’.

      The best strategy is independence with our own public national bank and our own currency.

    290. Brian Powell says:

      If, as Alex says, there are some great journalists at the Scotsman they must be working as cleaners or janitors at the moment.

    291. HandandShrimp says:

      Why does Fabricant look like a Spitting Image puppet?

    292. Fred says:

      So Fallon has discovered that he’s not fit to be a cabinet minister, why then is he still fit to be an MP? he’s not the only one either. Liam Fox springs to mind!

    293. starlaw says:

      Davidson talking about mucking out the stables in Westminster.
      What a cheek, she needs to start mucking out her own parties unelected Bigots Chancers and Racists who bring shame on the Holyrood Parliament.

    294. heedtracker says:

      As BBC r4 tories in England belch out Colonel Ruth as the tory voice of reason and goodness,

      https://stv.tv/news/politics/1401275-tory-candidate-suspended-after-sexual-assualt-claim/

    295. louis.b.argyll says:

      HandandShrimp, 10:35 am

      Why does Fabricant look like a Spitting Image puppet?

      Do you really want an answer to that?

    296. Macart says:

      The difference between Scotland’s First Minister and the leading lights of the establishment political parties? Scotland’s first Minister got the job regardless of the efforts of 99.9% of the UK media. That should tell people something. Substance over sound bite.

      The leaderships of Westminster parties are media creations and most especially the media are beyond supportive of Scottish unionist parties and their leaderships. Dear God! Westminster is almost literally a soap opera written by the media and spoon fed to an audience addicted to scandal, drama, cute kittens, z list celebrity and fleg wavy sport.

      Those who are so addicted deserve the likes of Ruth Davidson. They’ve earned their current government and all the Sideshow Bobs in their cabinet.

      Personally I’ll save my concern for those who didn’t and will suffer alongside regardless. I’ll also save my support and trust for those who I know to be fighting an uphill struggle with both hands tied behind their backs, yet still manage to do ‘the day job’ better than those who enjoy all the advantages and all the powers.

    297. cearc says:

      re Tesco,

      When Lidl started to accept credit cards I made a point of digging out my tescocard and always using it to pay at Lidl.

      Telling them that you will boycott will probably be ignored. It would take a huge boycott to make much of an impression and they would probably put it down to ‘other factors’.

      The data of what you spend and where on the card is subjected to ruthless and detailed analysis so by doing that you send a very clear message.

    298. galamcennalath says:

      Valerie says:

      denigrating the post of lawmaker

      True, but most of them are voted in, chosen by constituents to represent them. Of course people rarely vote for the person, they vote for the party. It’s all intertwined – party, politician, member, supporter, voter – they all take responsibility for the quality of the lawmakers we have.

      Begs the questions, are there any decent people involved in the Conservative Party at any level? Where are they, and why don’t they clean up the act?

    299. Robert Graham says:

      As Fallon does not fit the requirements of a cabinet minister , does he still fit the requisites of an MP – a peer of the realm ( english terminology ) I therefore expect Mr Fallon to be called just that from now on Mr Fallon .

      NO Laughter at the back now .

    300. TheWasp says:

      Colonel tRuthless passed over for the man who knows where the bodies are buried.

    301. Robert Peffers says:

      @schrodingers cat says: 1 November, 2017 at 11:50 pm:

      ” … to say they are only expressing a personal opinion and not the eu parlaiment is like saying that theresa, corbyn and cable are also expressing personal opinions and that the uk parliament hasnt expressed a view.”

      Can’t be bothered attempting to answer in detail your load of claptrap. I’m well aware of all that you spout but it is all totally irrelevant and these people are speaking for their own big factions because the EU has, as I stated, not formally debated the matter.

      When/if they do then the smaller EU member states will get a chance to express their views via the ballot box and any one of them can veto what the big guys are spouting just now.

      It is rather disingenuous to quote a screed of what a few representatives of only the biggest and most voluble few factions are spouting. There are, (discounting the UK and perhaps Spain too), 26 other member states and any one of those member states can veto any move the big EU states attempt in favour of Spain.

      These smaller members have indeed got the big guns worried to the extent they fear the EU establishment could come crashing down if they lose the BRexit argument and other states follow the UK out of the union.

      I’ve said it enough – the EU is democratic and consensual. Those big voices you quote need that consensus to pass anything and they are no longer always getting their own way these days.

      Furthermore, it will get through to those big guns that they must condemn Spanish violent suppression of Catalonia because of the EU written support in treaties for freedom of Self Expression. They cannot officially support the human right to self determination and then condone its suppression by a member state that has signed up to freedom of self determination.

      When you make the rules you must abide by the rules or you lose all credibility and if the EU loses credibility they lose it throughout the World.

    302. Jack Murphy says:

      Westminster’s new Defence Secretary,Gavin Williamson:

      http://tinyurl.com/y7lngkfy

      I wonder what Tory Ruth Davidson will have to say about him.

    303. Albaman says:

      Alex Salmond getting involved in a takeover of The Scotsman!, well times they are about to change me thinks.

    304. Jack Murphy says:

      I should have added to my post at 11:26am the link is to Twitter re Gavin Williamson MP the new Defence Secretary. 🙁

    305. One_Scot says:

      Oh man, the sight of Billy kneeling in front of Willy. Even bleach ain’t gonna remove that.

    306. Valerie says:

      @galamcennalath

      Yes, we have the lawmakers we deserve. We are getting the Brexit we deserve. We have the media we deserve.

      There is so much apathy, learned subjugation, helplessness, powerless, poverty stricken, uneducated public, that this is indeed our fate.

      We have, since the Brexit vote, seen an emergence of more educated, vocal Remainers, feeling horror at how we arrived at this, but I fear its too late. The juggernaut is gathering speed, and passengers, thanks to supine Opposition.

      It’s such a horror show, the UK an international laughing stock, that the best thing to do is make alternative arrangements.

      If Scotland doesn’t get a referendum in the next year, we are done for.

      I genuinely don’t understand any narrative that advocates waiting longer than that.

    307. schrodingers cat says:

      rp
      Can’t be bothered attempting to answer in detail your load of claptrap.
      ——————————–

      you have said on many occassions that international law would force the UN/EU to intercede on scotlands behalf if westminster started to get rough with holyrood. well robert, those same international laws also apply to catalunya and the UN/EU have done nothing. the reverse in fact.
      ——————–
      these people are speaking for their own big factions because the EU has, as I stated, not formally debated the matter.
      ———————————–

      aye, and theresa, corbyn and cable are speaking for their own big factions because westminster has, as I stated, not formally debated the matter. (10.30 today i believe)

      but by your logic the uk has not rejected Catalunya!!

    308. Robert Graham says:

      aye square go oot the back davidson – williamson and may the best
      eh person win , i believe that’s the accepted terminology now .

    309. Ghillie says:

      Valerie @ 10.11 am

      Well said.

    310. Ghillie says:

      Will Gavin be wanting to bomb Scotland airstrips?

    311. schrodingers cat says:

      Can’t be bothered attempting to answer in detail your load of claptrap. I’m well aware of all that you spout but it is all totally irrelevant
      ——————
      It is rather disingenuous to quote a screed
      ——————-

      unnecessary language bob, it detracts from your post

    312. mike d says:

      Valerie 11.40am. And thats it in a nutshell. A people who bovinely accept their lot.

    313. Proud Cybernat says:

      Some kite flying here.

      If I recall correctly, the Rev did a poll a couple or so years back in which it was shown that a majority of the people of Scotland want full control over all their affairs and would vote for that so long as it wasn’t actually labelled as ‘independence’.

      On that basis, can’t the SNP at Westminster & Holyrood elections present a manifesto to the people of Scotland to ‘return all powers from Westminster to Holyrood’.

      Is this not another way of becoming independent without actually voting for ‘independence’? We would still (technically) be part of the UK but looking after all our own affairs. Winning independence by not actually calling it ‘independence’.

      BTW – I learned that trick from ‘Ruth Don’t Mention the Conservative Party Davidson’.

    314. schrodingers cat says:

      When you make the rules you must abide by the rules or you lose all credibility and if the EU loses credibility they lose it throughout the World.
      ——————————

      if you look on twitter, facebook and even here, you will see quite clearly the EU has already lost a great deal of credibility amongst our own supporters because the EU is doing exactly what you are claiming they havent??

      the proof would appear to be in the pudding, no?

    315. Greannach says:

      I know Murdo Fraser is a Tory and likes to be included by his social superiors. I know he feels pride at being allowed to chat socially and share jolly japes with the Professor. I know he likes to pretend that he was privately educated.

      Maybe that’s why he likes to advertise his prejudices like a balloon Colonel writing lividly to the Daily Mail.

      He isn’t any of those things – he’s wee Murdie from Inverness.

    316. schrodingers cat says:

      Valerie says:
      I fear its too late.

      —————-

      I fear you are right. for all the talk of the government falling, another GE, another EUref and stopping brexit…….. I cant see any mechanism whereby any of the above can happen

    317. galamcennalath says:

      Valerie says:

      If Scotland doesn’t get a referendum in the next year, we are done for.

      Totally agree. We will be done for in multiple ways.

      The run up to Brexit will continue to bite and when it finally happens it will be bad, at best. Scotland will be particularly hit, especially food and agriculture.

      I think people completely underestimate the value of EU regulations – food, manufacturing, personal rights, employment rules. A stated aim of Brexit is to ‘roll back’ all this. Once gone, it will be hard to recover. The unstated aim of Brexit is to make ordinary people’s lives poorer, unhealthier, more insecure, and therefore shorter.

      I fear that WM will make changes post Brexit to make a democratic escape from its clutches even more difficult.

      Then of course there is the next Holyrood election. No Indy majority and we can probably forget about independence for a very long time as WM changes the nature of the UK.

      IndyRef2 must happen, I would say in 12 months at the absolute most. And we need to win it!

    318. Derick fae Yell says:

      The first problem for Scotland regarding the EU is that there isn’t a majority for a Yes vote on a ‘join the EU’ basis. There wasn’t before the Catalan situation, and it won’t have got any better, to put it mildly.

      All the benefits to ordinary citizens and almost all to businesses derive from single market membership, not the EU as such.

      The second problem for Scotland regarding the EU is the four year timescale, from an application once we are independent, to becoming a full member of EU/EEA. That’s a hell of a long time to be out of the single market. It’s too slow. Too long to lose the four freedoms.

      Wishful thinking about magical ‘holding pens’ is Brexiter-level delusional. The chances of all 27 remaining states re-writing Lisbon, specially for Bonnie Scotland (and in the process encouraging every ‘separatist’ movement in Europe are less than zero.

      We become independent. We apply and then we would go through the normal accession process. There is absolutely no doubt about that. Sweden and Finland took three and a half years NB from within EFTA from application to accession. And in their case the EEA agreement was completed during their accession, so they didn’t have to apply to the EEA after becoming EU members.

      EFTA/EEA is the only practical route back into the single market in an acceptable timescale.

      Yes, the EEA requires agreement from all 30 members, but by that time we’d be independent and in EFTA (assuming that we can persuade the Four that our joining is in their interests, which it is). A fait accompli.

      And the final problem with a direct move to independence in the EU is that there is a veto. The Spanish Veto is real. Wishful thinking won’t make that go away

    319. Brian Powell says:

      Why do we in Scotland stand by and continue to listen to all the incompetent crap coming from Westminster.

      We don’t, but the Tories want their Tory Government which runs the UK most of the time, so they accept it all. Labour want their wee turn in No 10 so will sacrifice the Scottish electorate until that opportunity comes along.

      The problem is Labour couldn’t win England but they talk as if the Tories lost their majority to them.

      If Labour get in to No10 simply because the Tories became so incompetent that doesn’t make Labour capable of running the country, at least not our country.

      They had no plans just said something different from the Tories when they saw which way the wind was blowing. They won’t have solved the issue of Brexit, the damage has been done.

      Scotland and the Scottish Governments position was clear so Scotland’s standing in the world is intact, at the moment, if we don’t get out then it will decline with the UKs.

    320. galamcennalath says:

      Proud Cybernat says:

      Is this not another way of becoming independent

      That seems to be how New Zealand achieved it. My understanding is no one can actually put a precise date to when it was considered to have happened. They did have the advantage of being half a planet away when communications were somewhat slower.

      I think we have reached the stage where standing on a policy of all (or nearly all) powers to be transferred would be about winning that mandate, having it rejected by WM, then calling an IndyRef in response. All the indications are that WM won’t hand over powers and there is no way to force them within a UK context,

      If there were another snap WM election, it might be a tactic.

    321. schrodingers cat says:

      Derick fae Yell
      agreed 100 %

    322. Robert Graham says:

      aye Mrs Mayhem give yer barrel of s–t another wee stir you never know what rises to the top S—e floats , i mean look at ruthie’s bunch of proud scots every one makes you swell with pride eh .

      boris the inhouse clown has given the new liar his endorsement and quoted his fine record , speaking of records an awful lot of tories borderline having a police record shortly , once Murdock ditches them they are all fair game .

      lets hope this is the beginning of the breakdown of mayhems regime

    323. Nana says:

      Good grief

      An MP formerly loyal to May: “she had a golden opportunity to do the right thing and appoint the right people to the right jobs. She’s just blown it and exposed herself as weaker than any of us thought. She’s being controlled by young men in suits. I now despair”.
      https://twitter.com/Peston/status/926047500808704001

      Minister tells me: “She’s gone mad. It’s real ‘end of days’ stuff. He’s [Williamson] a real slimeball, w/ his own leadership team in place”
      https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/926045488301867008

      We took evidence from the Secretary of State for Scotland David Mundell MP on Brexit today. This is how I feel about his answers:
      https://twitter.com/MairiGougeon/status/926054970931195904

    324. One_Scot says:

      ‘The first problem for Scotland regarding the EU is that there isn’t a majority for a Yes vote on a ‘join the EU’ basis.’

      Just exactly, how do you know that?

    325. Jack Murphy says:

      boris said at 10:27 pm last night:
      “She should be asked to name the gropers employed at BBC Scotland…….”

      Here’s the link to The Sun article Archived.
      It was last updated in 2016:

      http://archive.is/XCzSb

    326. heedtracker says:

      From someone who’s not said a peep about Spain, its police violence and Spanish gov taking over Catalonia press. Good to know fuckwits are a global phenomena.

      Guy Verhofstadt
      4 hrs ·
      Over the past eleven years more than 930 journalists have been killed for reporting the news and bringing information to the public; in nine out of ten cases the killers go unpunished. The recent murder of Daphne Caruana Galizia demonstrates the fact that such atrocities happen in Europe too. On this International Day to End Impunity for Crimes against Journalists, let’s recall that journalism is a KEY component of any democratic society: it must be free, protected and cherished! https://en.unesco.org/endimpunity-2017

    327. Derick fae Yell says:

      One_Scot says: 2 November, 2017 at 12:40 pm

      ‘The first problem for Scotland regarding the EU is that there isn’t a majority for a Yes vote on a ‘join the EU’ basis.’

      “Just exactly, how do you know that?”

      Because that has been, and is, the clear position of the Scottish Government, and support for independence is 45%, not 62%. And because all the polling we have consistently shows that (before Catalonia) about 11% of the total electorate wanted independence but not EU membership.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-unhappy-11/

      That’s too large a number to simply ignore as a fringe. We won’t win without them. Find a position that meets the desires of the 12% who have moved from No to Yes because of Brexit, and the 11% and we will win.

      I’d suggest that the events in Catalonia with so many EU players overtly taking the side of Madrid will not have reduced that 11%

    328. schrodingers cat says:

      one_scot

      last few polls showed support for yes about 46%

      stu did an opinion poll a few months back which showed the same but also highlighted that 14% of Nos had switch to yes because of brexit. unfortunately 13% of yes voters had swiched to No because of brexit. which was why the overall support for yes had stayed static.

      at the time he commented in his article that an euref2 might be inevitable once indy.

      i would hazard that support amongst yes voters for the EU is greater than for brexit.

      the point here is that many believe that the issue of eu membership should be decided after we are independent an not something tied to a yes vote. Many believe this tactic will entice the 13% yes2nos back to yes and win us indyref2.

      the efta membership mentioned is agreed by many since those who are remainers, by definition, want to be in the single market. But being in the single market is also now a position favoured by many brexiteers (except the hard brexiteers obviously).

      ergo, tying a yes vote to efta membership appears to be the best tactic to win indyref2

      once indy, i would campaign for us to be full eu members, adopt euro etc, get rid of the queen etc

      but the snp will campaign in indyref2 for efta membership. not eu membership

    329. One_Scot says:

      Well if it’s in a poll then it must be true, lol.

      Here’s an idea, why don’t we have a country wide referendum to find out exactly the state of play, so that we can stop all this speculative crap.

    330. Robert Peffers says:

      @schrodingers cat says: 2 November, 2017 at 11:43 am:

      ” … but by your logic the uk has not rejected Catalunya!!”

      Sheeesh!

      Are you for real?
      Don’t you read the actual words?

      The, “United Kingdom”, describes a legally bipartite union of two kingdoms that between them contain four countries. It is thus really a political state and the state itself hasn’t rejected Cataluya, but its leaders at Westminster have. Far as I know, Westminster has not had a debate or vote on the matter either.

      The UK’s present government leader has condemned the Catalonian independence movement. Most of the rest of the UK, including much of the Westminster MPs and the Holyrood Government, have publically supported them.

      Same goes for the EU. The EU parliament have not officially debated or voted upon the matter and the voices raised against Catalonian independence thus represent only their own views.

      They probably do not even speak on behalf of their own member state’s governments. This has been an obvious fault of the EU since the body was formed. Four or five big guns with far too much to say browbeating the majority of member states.

      Trouble is that they have been increasingly frustrated by the smaller, less powerful member states and the threat of the UK Exit has really spooked the big guns. They have expressed their fears that the EU is in grave danger of falling apart if other states follow the UK out of the EU. Their fears are justified for some others have threatened to do just that.

      Not only that but Spain itself has other autonomous regions where independence is a problem and Belgium and France also have independence seeking regions to worry about. The EU must change and adapt or it will indeed begin to lose member states or at least regions of member states. The thing is, in most cases, the independence seeking states wish to remain within the EU while being independent from the member state they are in at present.

      The EU parliament thus has a dilemma – does it collectively support the existing members states against the independence seeking regions and thus lose the independence seeking regions who will then join together, or with EFTA, or does it support the independence seekers and thus probably keep them but have a re-balance of the EU with the big guns losing power and the smaller ones gaining more of a voice in EU matters.

      I may be wrong but my gut feeling is that the end result will be that there will be an increased number of EU member states but with no big increase in the numbers of EU citizens. i.e. the independence seeking states will become independent of their overlords but will remain as member states of the EU without being required to reapply for membership.

      For if they do not the EU will diminish and die.

      During the Scottish referendum we had the President of the European Commission, Barroso, being reported as claiming many anti-Scottish things. However, upon studying the actual statements Barroso made it was apparent he always began his reported statements with something like, “I’m not referring to Scotland here”, or, “It is my opinion”, or something similar but the reporters then reported is as referred directly to Scotland.

      Then there was the actual fact that the reporters simply stated that Barroso was the President of the EC and not, as reported, even speaking on behalf of the EU. Furthermore, the reporters inferred Barroso was somehow speaking on behalf of Spain when he claimed Spain would veto any Scottish bid to either remain in the EU if the other partner kingdom in the United Kingdom left or if a Scotland outside the EU were applying to join the EU. Thing is Barroso was nothing to do with Spain he was a Portuguese politician and a Portuguese national.

      The UK, and often other nations medias, do this fake reporting all the time and, unfortunately, people still fall for the fake news as it seems do you.

      To date the EU officials who have had statements publicised have had no official backing for their anti-Catalan views. To have such official backing requires an official EU parliamentary statement that cannot be made without a formal debate and vote.

    331. schrodingers cat says:

      Derick fae Yell says:
      I’d suggest that the events in Catalonia with so many EU players overtly taking the side of Madrid will not have reduced that 11%

      —————
      agree with all of your post, but robert peffers is claiming the eu hasnt sided with madrid so how can our supporters be deserting the eu as you rightly claim?

    332. McBoxheid says:

      Alba 46 says:
      2 November, 2017 at 9:21 am

      O/T Anybody out their having problems with the online edition of the National?
      _________________________
      It is quite often not there at all, even at 10.00 O’clock
      I found that by logging out if it isn’t there and logging back in, sometimes fixes that. They are aware of a problem as I emailed them about it and got a reply a few weeks ago.

    333. Derick fae Yell says:

      Robert Peffers

      “I may be wrong but my gut feeling is that the end result will be that there will be an increased number of EU member states but with no big increase in the numbers of EU citizens. i.e. the independence seeking states will become independent of their overlords but will remain as member states of the EU without being required to reapply for membership.”

      The only way to become an EU member is by becoming a recognised independent state and applying to join via Lisbon Article 49. There is no other way to become a member. To change that, Lisbon would have to be amended, unanimously.

    334. Breeks says:

      One_Scot says:
      2 November, 2017 at 12:40 pm
      ‘The first problem for Scotland regarding the EU is that there isn’t a majority for a Yes vote on a ‘join the EU’ basis.’

      Just exactly, how do you know that?

      The first problem for Scotland regarding EFTA is that there is no mandate for it whatsoever, where there is a concrete democratic majority in favour of EU membership. There is also no constitutional leverage for Scotland’s Independence if it capitulates to being Brexited against its will, – EFTA membership concedes Scotland’s Sovereign Remain vote without a fight. EFTA membership does not provide access to the EU’s Trade Agreements with 3rd party countries who are not EU members, which would leave Scotland having to scramble to secure multiple foreign Global Trade Deals which EU membership would already provide, – Trade Deals agreed with EU negotiating as a mass bloc, whereas little lonely Scotland would be left to make its own deals bilaterally, and without the muscle of the EU for protection.
      EU Membership also gives Scotland a veto over EU deals and policy, and an input into EU strategy and policy. In the case of Catalonia for example, Scotland in Europe could provide Catalonia with a a friend inside the EU, and could create difficulties for the Spanish fascist suppression of democracy. Without EU membership, the EU has no incentive even to listen to Scotland.

      Scotland would pay for EFTA membership, probably more or less what it would pay for EU membership but without having a say in policy. Look at the fragility of the Swiss Trade Deal with Europe.

      It is also a very narrow view to see EU membership in terms of trade alone. In the EU, we are a part of the European family, and part of the EU project. In EFTA, we’d be the distant cousins from the sticks who were only seen or heard at Christmas, weddings and funerals.

      If EU Membership is so bad, and EFTA so terrific, then why aren’t other EU nations lining up to exit Europe for a cushy EFTA deal instead? EFTA is just a cover for a Brexiteer’s soft Brexit, and the EU would make sure Scotland, like the U.K., would not be allowed to cherry pick the benefits of EU membership without the commitment.

      Finally, if Scotland turns away from EU membership, Scotland’s secession from the U.K. would slide down the EU’s agenda, and fall under the EU’s blanket presumption against secession and fragmentation of Nations. At the moment, the U.K. is the party seceding from the EU, and Scotland’s secession from the U.K. specifically because of Brexit, turns Scotland’s antithesis to Brexit into a meaningful protest and objection to Brexit, and as such Scotland’s secession becomes a positive contribution towards European solidarity. Scotland’s emancipation from the U.K. could be a development the EU would be free to actively support and encourage.

      Even once Scotland gets it act together and commits to Independence, there will still be difficult negotiations with Westminster to complete. Scotland in Europe will be in a much stronger bargaining position if it’s a member state of the EU. If Scotland is just on its own, we’ll be negotiating with Westminster on our own.

    335. schrodingers cat says:

      “The position in Scotland hasn’t changed,” Jacqueline Minor said. There is a clear process for any applicant country under article 49 of the European treaties. “That would also apply to Scotland. If Scotland became an independent country I think article 49 is the normal starting point,” she said.
      Minor, who is the commission’s spokeswoman in the UK,

      Wading into the debate on the Scottish Government’s plans for a second vote, a spokesman for the European Commission (EC) said Scotland would not be granted automatic access to the EU if it split from the rest of the UK.

      At a briefing in Brussels, Margaritis Schinas said: “The Barroso doctrine, would that apply? Yes that would apply, obviously.”
      He was referencing ?former commission president Jose Manuel Barroso, who set out the legal view that if one part of an EU country became an independent state it would have to apply for EU membership.

      Margaritis Schinas is the current Chief Spokesperson of the European Commission, and a Deputy Director-General at the Commission’s DG Communication.

      these comments are from the EU’s spokespersons for exactly these issues, they cant be ignored or wished away
      an indy scotland will need to apply as a new nation.
      i dare say we would be accepted in all haste with no problems but that isnt the point. we will need to apply and will need all 27 countries, including spain, to agree

      we cannot say to folk, vote yes and we will re join the EU as it is not in our power to promise this, the bbc will simply point to these quotes and ask what our plan b is.

      we can however say to folk, vote yes and we will start the process of re joining the single market via EFTA as norway and iceland have already said we can, so it is in our power to promise this.

    336. Meg merrilees says:

      Nana

      Caught the news on TV at a relative’s (in the care home).

      Amazed to hear Mundell when asked for a comment about Fallon’s departure say….

      … it will be a real loss ” as he championed Scotland”

      I’d hate to have decisions he made being taken by someone who doesn’t ‘Champion’ Scotland.
      Maybe that’s what’s coming down the line.

      Later, on the radio i heard them say that Williamson advised May to remove Fallon and now Williamson is sitting behind Fallon’s desk!!!
      Eyebrows being raised at very high echelons in the party.

      GE coming soon?

      And another thing…
      Why does Brian Taylor interview two English sounding people on their interpretation of how FMQ’s went today??? No intelligent Scots around?

      Not seeing the BBC in action very often, I’m frankly gobsmacked at how blatant their bias is.

    337. schrodingers cat says:

      breeks
      The first problem for Scotland regarding EFTA is that there is no mandate for it whatsoever, where there is a concrete democratic majority in favour of EU membership
      —————–

      the 62% who voted remain, voted for the EU membership we then had, as it was (i say as it was cos even if the uk reverses brexit, it wont get back the deal it had)

      the status quo we voted for included being in the single market so nicola does have a mandate for efta and eea membership. that is explicite in the 62% who voted remain

      once an indy scotland applies for eu membership, as i believe it will, it will not get the same deal the uk had or that I voted for. we will not get the rebate or the 4 opt outs we had and that i voted for, so whatever membership deal the eu offer us will need to be put to the people of scotland for agreement. she has no mandate to just agree these terms by herself since it wasnt these terms that the 62% voted for

      the basic premise of your agrument is wrong

    338. Meg merrilees says:

      Not defending Fallon but…

      if things kick off in N. Korea would you rather have an older experienced Defence Secretary who understands the army and has obviously good connections with them or a young, hot-headed prat out to make an impression and sensing the reins of power for the first time???

      I’m sure he’ll get on well with Trump and his young, inexperienced, eager team.

      Answers on a nuclear-proof postcard please.

    339. heedtracker says:

      the status quo we voted for included being in the single market so nicola does have a mandate for efta and eea membership. that is explicite in the 62% who voted remain

      The whole thing is a toryboy mindfcuk. But Brexit is still Scotland’s route to greatness, no longer run by another country…

      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-02/u-k-is-open-to-talking-about-associate-citizenship-after-brexit

      Why did they hold Brexit ref1?

    340. louis.b.argyll says:

      But, but, to compare Scotland to successionist regions is to underplay Scotland’s existing status.

      It’s one thing to block the creation of a new state-within-a-state.

      It is quite another to facilitate the extinguishing of an existing, once-nation-state..in any shape or form.

      Europe needs a progressive Scotland and a grown-up England.

      Grow up England. Your still playing cowboys and Indians despite waving about your qualifications, acting like a schoolboy who’s cheated his exams.

      Unemployable in reality, yet, judging by family background, a cabinet minister in Westminster circles.

    341. schrodingers cat says:

      once we vote indy, we will be out of the eu regardless, they have already said we will be

      as for sliding down the eu’s priority list, we are talking about the platform we take during a 6 month indyref2 campaign.

      i sincerely hope the eu steps in and supports scottish independence, but i would not plan the yes campaign based on this requirement.
      it is infinitely more likely that they will say nothing and those that do venture an opinion will be those who claim we wont be allowed back in.
      it is delusional to think otherwise, its like believing the EU/UN will come to catalunya’s rescue

      too many people are confusing the position we need to take to win indyref2 and the reality an independent scotland will face once we have voted yes.

      case in point, jim sillers didnt support salmonds currency union position during indyref1, he prefered a scots pound, Why? not because sillers didnt think a CU wasnt the best and easiest solution in the short term after a yes vote, or indeed that westminster would refuse it, he believed that the morning of a yes vote in indyref1, westminster would have accept a CU, nay, they would have begged for one. No, he prefered we propose a £scots because it didnt need an agreement from westminster which the CU did. this left an open goal for better together to rubbish salmonds plans for a currency, and they took it.

      there is a difference between politics and reality, sound bites are what win elections and referendums, not 650 page manifestos. wake up and smell the cheese. losing indyref2 is not an option and to win it we must be far more hard nosed

    342. Robert Graham says:

      No sound required when viewing BBC in Scotland, The clips showing Red and blue Tory party in action don’t need any interpretation, we object, we oppose, we f/n moan about everything even if it’s good, we can’t be seen agreeing with anything those separatists propose.

      This reminds me of the obstacles Tommy Sheridan faced when trying to push a bill through Holyrood , although the the proposed bill benefited a lot of people, Yep you guessed it Labour opposed it, not because it was a bad bill, it was because it didn’t originate from them and they could claim no Glory, even after all these years these b/rds are still up to the same S—-e , if anything they are worse now by openly supporting the tories in some councils .

      Union first, last ,every way and f/k the voting public , we know best our party first . Scabby B/rds .

    343. Meg merrilees says:

      Heedtracker

      They held Brexit 1 to try and stop the haemorrhaging of Tory voters to UKIP and to try and silence the dissenting voices within the Tory party; a party which was desperate to avoid schism and hold on to power AT ANY COST.

      YES, even the possibility of destroying the country for the majority of the electorate.

      As we keep saying, it was an advisory referendum, not binding, and when will someone stand up, take control and say:

      “I truly believe that Brexit will not be a good move for this country. We will be weaker, poorer and less united if we go through with this folly. My party does not support this move, so we are CANCELLING Brexit.

      Let’s get on with building up our connections with the rest of the world, work hard and make a success of things.

      Ah, wait a minute, there is one party…

      Viva Scotland. ( Hail Alba – sorry rev!)

    344. schrodingers cat says:

      If EU Membership is so bad, and EFTA so terrific,
      —————
      it isnt and no one is saying it is

      what we are saying is that, we have the power to offer a way back into the single market via EFTA membership in indyref2

      we do not have the power to offer EU membership, that is a wish only, whether an indy scotland gets back into the EU is up to all of the 27 eu countries. and you can bet your life if we tie a yes vote to EU membership, andrew marr will dig up another high ranking EU official to say that it will never happen. whats your plan B?

    345. Derick fae Yell says:

      Scotland’s potential secession from the UK is not on the EU agenda in any substantive sense, beyond a few photo ops and an opportunity to spite the Brits. Perhaps just as well, given the overt and entirely understandable hostility being demonstrated by member states and various politicians towards ‘secessionist’ movements.

      There is no membership fee for being in EFTA. The three EFTA/EEA states contribute financially to various EEA programmes that they have chosen to participate in, because they see that in their best interests. List here http://www.efta.int/eea/eu-programmes.

      Contributions are on a relative GDP basis, so they are identical to EU member states’ contributions. Obviously there are no EFTA member financial contributions to programmes that the choose not to participate in, so the overall contribution is lower.

      It is also incorrect to say that the three EFTA/EEA states have no influence in EU policies. There’s a decent argument that being part of an organised bloc which has a direct route to EU policy making is at least as much influence as a small EU member state has. http://www.efta.int/eea/decision-shaping

      EFTA has 27 FTAs covering 38 countries and territories outside the EU.

      In passing, I note that public support in Iceland, Norway and Switzerland for joining the EU has declined over the years. The Norwegian referendum was very close, but support there is now under 20%. Ditto Switzerland. Support in Iceland for joining is roughly 35-40%. Don’t have figures for Lichtenstein.

    346. schrodingers cat says:

      Finally, if Scotland turns away from EU membership, Scotland’s secession from the U.K. would slide down the EU’s agenda, and fall under the EU’s blanket presumption against secession and fragmentation of Nations.
      ————————-

      the moment we vote yes, nicola can request eea membership, she has a mandate to do that.

      she can also enter into negotiations about EU membership and even put through a bill in holyrood on holding an euref on the details of our membership.

      indyref2 without a section 30 may not be legally binding but it will have the same moral bind the euref has.
      the turnout and size of the yes victory will determine whether westminster even tries to oppose it.

    347. Steffano says:

      cat@2.08pm

      Been waiting on someone who could sum up the political reality in a short para for a lang time, your last para nails it. Well done.

    348. Juteman says:

      Having a multi result referendum plays right into the Yoons hands by splitting the vote.
      The only sensible action is an Indy vote, with the promise of a referendum on Europe later.

    349. heedtracker says:

      I still have not heard any EU people explain why exactly they are against member states breaking up, devolving, reverting back to whatever state they once were etc.

      Its clearly a deeply conservative organisation, much like Westminster, where the interests of the actual EU citizen means very little.

    350. schrodingers cat says:

      Derick fae Yell

      i would still argue that in the long term eu membership for an indy scotland is preferable.

      but we need to the situation we find ourselves in at the moment and the damage being done to the uk economy is because it is leaving the single market, not because it is leaving the eu.

      leaving the single market is recognised as crazy by even some of the stanchest brexiteers.

      tying indyref2 to rejoining the single market is a winning ticket, not what is best (breeks points out the failings of efta quite clearly) or indeed my personal preference but the best strategy for us to win indyref2. if we dont, all our different preferences will count for nothing. we will be out of both. fact

    351. heedtracker says:

      it is delusional to think otherwise, its like believing the EU/UN will come to catalunya’s rescue

      EU certainly kept right out of Brexit ref1, too.

    352. Meg merrilees says:

      Spanish prosecutor has sent out a request for a European Arrest warrant for Puigdemont

    353. galamcennalath says:

      I would like IndyRef2 to be about the wider failure of their Union – broken promises, rule without mandate, alien notions for how a society should be, foisting policies against proven will – Brexit being just part of it.

      However, when the day comes to announce IndyRef2 the trigger will be a Brexit which is particularly severe for Scotland. I hope the campaign is widened, but central will be our relationship with the EU. Arguing for an independent Scotland with some other to-be-negotiated relationship short of membership, along with a new currency is just IMO handing too many Project Fear opportunities to the Unionists.

      We need Indy to look the safest option with the least change to the maximum people. And contrast that with an uncertain, unstable, and unpleasant future UK.

      Like it or not, voters understand EU membership. I cannot believe the EU will make matters difficult for a country which is already a member and wishes to remain a member. Scotland is a country, in a unique voluntary union. I see no reason why our EU membership couldn’t effectively continue.

      IMO we just need to get the timing right, and win a referendum.

      The long term relationship with the EU will be a choice the people of iScotland can make.

    354. schrodingers cat says:

      heedtracker says:
      I still have not heard any EU people explain why exactly they are against member states breaking up, devolving, reverting back to whatever state they once were etc.
      ——————

      i dont think they are, until they suddenly realised that supporting scotland is only the thin end of the wedge, then came catalunya…

      it is quite clear now that scotland has started a process, let the geni out of the bottle and that this is only the start.

      guy verhofstadt was keen to support scotland, cos he was pissed of at westminster for damaging his beloved eu, but the events in catalunya have suddenly reminded him that he is also a belgian unionist and that this process threatens his beloved belgium, to which he is emotionally attached
      hence the volt face

    355. HandandShrimp says:

      SC

      I agree, we need to keep the next Indyref real and only offer what the nigglers can’t gainsay. That is EFTA and a Scottish currency. If post independence we find we are pushing at open doors on other options then we cross those bridges in due course.

      We need to learn from the first Indyref and build a stronger wall around the next proposal. The Unionists will decry our own currency but they can’t deny it will happen, they will say that the EU is better than EFTA but they can’t lock us out of EFTA and with UK leaving the EU that argument is weak anyway.

    356. schrodingers cat says:

      gala
      —————–

      Like it or not, voters understand EU membership. I cannot believe the EU will make matters difficult for a country which is already a member and wishes to remain a member.
      ————————
      they wont, once we are independent. but we are talking about the politics of the indyref2 campaign, not the reality of what happens if we win. during indyref2, the eu will say nothing, except from 1 or 2 high ranking eu officials who the bbc will find to say the opposite. they did that the last time, dont you remember?
      —————-

      Scotland is a country, in a unique voluntary union. I see no reason why our EU membership couldn’t effectively continue.
      ———————–

      cos the eu’s official position iswe will need to re join as a new state. by definition that means we will be out and our EU membership cant effectively continue. if we held indyref2 before the uk leaves, and westminster agreed to our independence, the eu could possibly review our situation, so in theory, we might be able to stay in.
      but we still need to first win indyref2 and we need to focus on how we do that.

    357. Derick fae Yell says:

      Galen

      “Arguing for an independent Scotland with some other to-be-negotiated relationship short of membership, along with a new currency is just IMO handing too many Project Fear opportunities to the Unionists”

      I think that’s exactly the other way round. For EU membership to ‘continue’ an entirely new mechanism would have to be invented, just for Scotland. And Lisbon would have to be amended, unanimously, including by states that have a vested interest in discouraging secessionary movements, and pretty much instantly. That is both wildly unlikely, and a complete gift to Project Fear2.

      The EFTA route already exists. It’s clear and defined. We have to get just four countries, with which we have many commonalities, to approve our membership, not 27 – some of which will be hostile.

      Our joining would stabilise EFTA and strengthen their negotiating position in the EEA. The existing members have a vested interest to approve our membership

      By contrast EU members have a vested interest in discouraging secessionary movements. There is no guaranteed succour there. See Catalonia.

      The EFTA/EEA route back to the single market is potentially at least three years faster than the EU route. Actually infinitely faster, because if we don’t get a Yes vote we won’t be in the EU, or the single market, at all. We’ll be stuck in Little Britain for decades.

      The EFTA route neatly sidesteps a number of EU related scare stories. There is no Spanish Veto to join EFTA – they aren’t a member.

      It won’t take years, because the accession criteria is simply that the EFTA council approves membership.

      There is no requirement to adopt the Euro (even theoretically), and there is no related deficit convergence criteria to meet – and hence no deficit related scaremongering.

      There is no Common Fisheries Policy. Bertie Armstrong can rest easy and enjoy his military pension. Fishing is a minor industry, but the seabed around the fishing communities is not minor. We have to take the whole country with us.

      There is no Common Agricultural Policy. Which is why Norway and Switzerland are able to direct agricultural subsidy towards what are effectively crofters.

      Those two sectors – fishing and agriculture are why Norway and Iceland have not joined the EU

      Cat – if we go the EFTA route we have to commit to it for a decade at least, for two reasons.

      1 we have to get the four to approve our membership. It’s not automatic any more than EU membership is automatic. Telling them that we wish to just use them as a way station and then discard them instantly is not a great selling point for them to approve us. Why would they?

      2 The pro-independence, No to EU voters will not vote Yes if we are just going to use that as quick way back into the EU. If they don’t vote Yes, we won’t be in the single market at all. Because we will lose.

    358. schrodingers cat says:

      hand
      they will say that the EU is better than EFTA

      yes they will and they would be right, but then we didnt vote to leave the eu, they did.

      i think a far more likely mode of attack from the unionists is that our mandate for indyref2 comes from being pulled out of the eu against our will and now we are ditching eu membership.
      thats when we can turn their own arguments against them

      1. we didnt want to leave, it is westminster who dragged us out of the EU
      2. We will be out as the EU has said we will need to rejoin
      3. andra neil has said we will have to join a long long cue.
      4. andrew marr has said the EU wont allow us back in.
      5. the bbc has said spain will oppose our eu membership request.

      6. for these reasons when we vote yes in indyref2 we will immediately rejoin the single market, to protect our jobs and economy and give seccour to our much put upon eu citizens living in scotland and scots living in the EU.

      After which we will then attempt to repare the damage you have done to scotlands eu membership which,by then, will be none of your damn business

    359. Les Wilson says:

      new Defence Secretary,Gavin Williamson, wow, this guy is really
      going to go down well with our armed forces. He looks what he is, an upper class twat.

      Mayhem, is just that, a total nutter who can’t control anything, or make the right decisions, she just gets told what to do by, er, somebody or other.

    360. Derick fae Yell says:

      Cat 3.19. Nailed it.

      Random point of EFTA related information. The Constitution of Lichtenstein gives each of the 11 communes (local authorities) the absolute right to secede, subject to a majority of voters in that commune requesting it, and then confirming it in a local referendum. None of them have taken it up, but it is there in black and white

    361. Jack Murphy says:

      TODAY. Scottish Parliament TV.
      FIRST MINISTER’S QUESTIONS.

      Now Archived:

      http://tinyurl.com/yaa4nwj5

    362. schrodingers cat says:

      derik
      Cat – if we go the EFTA route we have to commit to it for a decade at least.

      yes we do, for a certain length of time anyway, 5 years ? but once again, we need to differentiate between a political 6 month campaign and the real politik after a yes vote.

      we can propose efta membership during the campaign as a stepping stone back into europe. how long isnt up to us, it isnt in our power to decide, that is for the other 27 eu countries, and the bbc has said spain will never allow us back in 🙂

      by the way, efta and the single market are not the same thing, efta is really only a stepping stone back into the single market. all 27 eu members are needed to agree to scotlands eea membership.

      but i propose that we do not labour that point, we confuse the 2 and we certainly dont produce a 650 page document highlighting the differences

      farage and the leave campaign repeatedly touted the norway option for the uk during the euref, even though norway accepts FMOP and farage didnt. leave won

      we need to keep it6 simple

    363. mike cassidy says:

      The EU was happy to give membership to Cyprus in 2004 even though it had split in the eighties.

      And as I have pointed out before.

      A reunification referendum was held prior to EU membership in which the breakaway part voted ‘yes, we’ll come back’ and the other part voted ‘no, we don’t want you back.’

      So the EU finds itself having a member called the Republic Of Cyprus consisting of the whole island – even though the island is split and the EU does not recognise Northern Cyprus.

      I suspect we may wait a long time for a clear statement on the EU’s policy on political fragmentation.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Cyprus_and_the_European_Union

    364. Proud Cybernat says:

      BREAKING: Tesco backtracking. The announcement to remove the Scottish Saltire from Scottish produce and replace it with the UK flag was “a mistake”.

      Well done peeps.

    365. schrodingers cat says:

      Derick fae Yell says:
      Cat 3.19. Nailed it.
      🙂

      Random point of EFTA related information.

      aye, iceland and norway have both already said an indy scotland can join efta but the swiss and lichtenstien have been very quiet on the matter.

      im certain iceland would come out in favour of scotland, they hate the bbc and paxman for insulting their president, norway will too.

    366. HandandShrimp says:

      I think any remaining trust with Tesco is wearing thin

      As for Williamson, looking at some of the Twitter activity by Tories this guy is absolutely loathed (I have never heard of him). I have no idea what May’s thinking is but it looks wobbly.

    367. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. the EU not doing anything for Scotland.

      European Structural and Investment Funds

      European Structural and Investment Funds (ESIF) provide EU Member States with financial assistance to deliver the EU2020 strategy of Smart, Sustainable and Inclusive Growth, increasing economic activity and employment across the EU.

      http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Business-Industry/support/17404

      Structural Funds 2014-2020

      For the 2014-2020 programming period, Scotland secured a total investment of €941m split across the European Regional Development Fund (ERDF) and European Social Fund (ESF):

      ERDF allocation – €476m

      ESF allocation – €464m

      In all Member States and Regions, the strategic focus of ESIF is to grow economic activity and employment, while increasing the living standards of EU citizens. In Scotland, ERDF funding supports Smart Growth and Sustainable Growth Objectives, while ESF support Inclusive Growth activity. Both funding programmes focus investments into niche areas to maximise the positive impact of the funds in successfully achieving EU2020 objectives and Scottish Government policy priorities.

      http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Business-Industry/support/17404/EuropeanStructuralFunds

      How much do the regions of the UK receive in EU funding?

      Structural funds are allocated to various regions of the UK depending on the size of the local economies, measured by their GDP per head of the population.

      From these funds the UK and Gibraltar were allocated around €16 billion for 2014-2020.

      Of that, England has been allocated roughly €10.6 billion, Wales €3 billion, Scotland €1.8 billion, Northern Ireland €741 million and Gibraltar €11 million. Some other money from the fund was also allocated to projects and industries spanning the whole of the UK.

      https://fullfact.org/europe/how-much-do-regions-uk-receive-eu-funding/

    368. mike cassidy says:

      OT

      Inside this article is a startling relevation of how the Tories see the UK post-brexit.

      “.. the time would come when Africa would be richer, or at least more economically dynamic, than the UK – and implicitly pleaded with the ambassadors to make sure Africa remembers the UK when that day comes.”

      Postbrexit Aid concert for UK coming soon!

      http://archive.is/zPKDJ#selection-1435.150-1435.354

    369. Ken500 says:

      Scotland gets £1/2Billion CAP. Grants and ECB investments. Scotland could get more renewable grants etc without Westminster interference. Scotland loses EU renewable grants/investment because of Westminster unionist indecision. Westminster Tories took EU CAP payments intended for Scottish farmers. Scotland as part of the UK receives the lowest (pro rata) CAP Payments. Scotland saves in EU shared Defence costs. 400million nearest biggest market. Good social Laws. and initiatives. EU membership benefits Scotland.

    370. PictAtRandom says:

      Concrete proposal: Can we have “vote yes [to independence] and we will start the process of rejoining the single market via EFTA” as one of the options on any IndyRef2 launched by Holyrood?

      (schrodingers cat can have the royalties on that phrase unless we become a republic)

      The evidence of the 2017 election is that a Hard Yes + Remain position doesn’t yield 62% for Yes2. It yields something close to 62% of the 50% vote that the SNP gained in 2015.

    371. Nana says:

      A few links re the new defence fellow

      Some Tories Think Making Gavin Williamson The New Defence Secretary Is Theresa May’s “Biggest Mistake”
      http://archive.is/ArTR9

      https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/defence-secretary-michael-fallon-resigns-new-scandalous-sex-allegations-conservative-party-workers-emerge/01/11/

      https://politicalscrapbook.net/2017/11/tories-at-war-over-theresa-mays-mad-choice-of-defence-secretary/

      and this

      Spanish prosecutor requests European arrest warrant for Puigdemont
      http://archive.is/jd7j4

    372. Andy-B says:

      Well today is the centenary of the Balfour Declaration, in which Westminster gave the Zionists carte blanche to set their sights on Palestine.

      Balfour, who was called “Bloody Balfour by his opponents set in motion (possibly unwittingly) the demise and oppression of the people of Palestine, which continues to this day.

    373. Petra says:

      For Breeks:

      Sorry for the delay in responding to you Breeks. I’ve been really busy this week between one thing and another and I’m now preparing to head off for the weekend.

      Anyway thanks for taking the time to compile your list and just to point out from the outset that I’ve had to omit including many relevant links, as if I did so this post would just disappear into the ether. I’ve also used the term ‘’you say’’ constantly (boring) to get through your many points without reposting your full list.

      I’ve read through your list and to be honest I think that you’re being totally unrealistic in relation to most of points that you’ve made, for example we don’t get to dictate terms to the EU such as, that there should be a Scottish negotiator on the Brexit team. In fact they’ve made it clear already that they can only deal with the member state, that is the UK. I’d also reckon that Nicola Sturgeon would have looked into this already and broached the subject, with say Barnier.

      You say ‘’Holyrood should take the initiative to hold talks with the EU to prepare a formal contingency plan for Scotland to escape Brexit.’’

      You can only ‘talk’ to someone if they are willing to ‘talk’ to you Breeks and what we really need is a ‘contingency plan’ to escape the UK, to escape Brexit, and that’s got nothing to do with the EU at all. That’s down to us.

      You say ‘’even if the EU cannot in good faith formally recognise Scotland’s probationary Sovereignty, then let the EU at the very least recognise that UK Parliamentary Sovereignty is ambiguous and disputed, and see the EU formally task Westminster with addressing that dispute to satisfactory conclusion before Brexit negotiations can continue or be formally concluded.’’

      The EU will not be one bit interested, imo, in the UK’s parliamentary Sovereignty, ambiguous and disputed or not Breeks and the last thing they’ll think of doing is ‘tasking’ them with anything now other than getting their act together on Brexit. If anything I reckon the EU will be happy to see the back of them, not get involved with further issues.

      You say ‘’if Scotland must apply to rejoin the EU, we should apply right now.’’

      However we’re still part of the UK and in the EU, up until March 2019, so how do we square that one? And even if that were possible why on earth would the EU even consider getting involved when we, and more so they, have no idea if we’ll ever be an Independent country at all. On the other hand if a Referendum was to be held before the UK leaves, and we win, Holyrood could start talks say, in relation to the continuity of Scotland’s EU membership at that time.

      You say ‘’we should hold constitutional summits between the EU and Holyrood to formalise the process of EU membership.’’

      Constitutional summits? Once again there’s no way, in my opinion, that the EU would consider doing this if we are not Independent.

      You say ‘’we should petition the EU / UN in an attempt to get them to recognise Scotland’s probationary Sovereignty.’’

      Firstly who would sign this ‘sovereignty’ petition? Who, how many people, in Scotland in fact is even aware of the concept of our sovereignty? And even if we did petition I doubt that the EU would get involved in the issue of Scottish sovereignty, especially as the UK is ‘exiting’ to regain its sovereignty from the EU at this time (add to that Catalonia). The ECJ’s focus is also on whether EU law is being fairly interpreted and applied in member states, not about how much sovereignty one has far less ‘probationary’ sovereignty. The UN in my opinion wouldn’t even consider looking at a case of ‘’probationary’’ sovereignty (*probationary pending democratic ratification, as you say). Check out the petitions online. Nor do we qualify as being a ‘colony’.

      You say ‘’have Scotland formally recognise the EU’s systemic aversion to secession in principle, but formally appeal for a dispensation in such attitudes towards Scotland, given that Scotland’s “secession” from the UK is a benign and constitutionally lawful consequence of the UK’s malignant secession from Europe.’’

      Once again how can we do that if we have no idea if we will secede from the UK at all?

      You say ‘’seek a formal edict from the EU that both Scotland’s probationary Sovereignty, Scotland’s actual Sovereignty by legal definition, and Scotland’s capacity to act as an international interlocutor are circumstances which the EU is formally prepared to recognise now. If not, then what do we need to do to qualify for recognition.’’

      I reckon that what we have to do qualify is actually get our Independence and have it legally recognised.

      You mention initiating a Court case in an attempt to get them to recognise ‘’some limited form of probationary Scottish Sovereignty’’ say, by taking our case to the ECHR, however I reckon that the case would have to be heard in the UK Supreme Court initially and if unsuccessful would then go on to Europe. These cases can take MANY years to resolve, that is if they even consider taking the case on … a case of ‘’probationary sovereignty’’ … doubtful; and more than anything have you considered what the implications for us would be if they did so and we lost?

      ‘Once the HRA Act came into force on 2 October 2000, individuals could claim a remedy for breaches of their Convention rights in the UK courts. An individual who thinks that his or her Convention rights have not been respected by a decision of a UK court may still bring a claim before the ECtHR, but they must first try their appeal in the UK courts. It is the duty of all such courts, including the UK Supreme Court, to interpret all existing legislation so that it is compatible with the ECHR; so far as it is possible to do so. If the court decides it is not possible to interpret legislation so that it is compatible with the Convention it will issue a ‘declaration of incompatibility’.’

      http://www.supremecourt.uk/about/the-supreme-court-and-europe.html

      You say that ‘before Scotland goes to the polls to vote, have made concrete and widely known the benchmarks for currency, Constitution, and strategic defence, (note strategic defence, not the number of ships we’ll have), have the terms and path towards EU membership fully resolved, not merely as heresay or conjecture, but a path and process formally acknowledged and agreed with Europe.’’

      Nicola Sturgeon will no doubt do just that: Outline ‘Scotland’s Future: Your Guide to an Independent Scotland’ … Part 2 (shorter account hopefully). Whether the path and process towards EU membership is formally acknowledged and agreed on with Europe BEFORE we go to the polls is another question altogether, especially as we would still, once again, be a part of the UK at that time. I’ll speculate that when they know that we’re going to hold a Referendum they’ll get the ‘covert’ message out there, or even more overt to influence the outcome, and that is that we’ll be welcomed with open arms.

      You mentioned that the term ‘’probationary sovereignty’’ (probationary pending democratic ratification) could be seen as a red herring, but this is what your whole exposition is based on Breeks. I reckon that the pursuit of attempting to deal with our sovereignty at this time, never mind ‘probationary sovereignty’, is in fact THE red herring.

      Definition of a red herring being ‘something that misleads or distracts from a relevant or important issue. It may be either a logical fallacy or a literary device that leads readers or audiences towards a false conclusion. A red herring might be intentionally used, such as in mystery fiction or as part of rhetorical strategies (e.g. in politics), or it could be inadvertently used during argumentation.’

      If we could put the ‘yen’ over establishing our sovereignty to one side, forget about it altogether in fact, we could possibly petition the European Parliament in relation to infringement of our EU membership, as can be seen by the numerous petitions that have been submitted already with regard to Brexit. I also reckon that this would be an avenue that Nicola and her Constitutional experts may be considering pursuing, albeit not necessarily through petition.

      https://petiport.secure.europarl.europa.eu/petitions/en/show-petitions

      Meanwhile wouldn’t it just be a lot easier, make sense, to work towards ensuring that over 50% of Sovereign Scots actually want Scotland to become an Independent country, hold a referendum and get on with it Breeks? And of course if we won, and I’m sure we will, the issue of sovereignty would be resolved there and then with no need for petitions and Court cases.

    374. stewartb says:

      Very O/T!

      Recommend this film – with v interesting archive photos – on the history of British involvement in Palestine. Another example of Britain’s ‘illustrious past’ in international affairs!

      http://www.balfourproject.org/film-of-britain-in-palestine-1917-1948/

      Of this episode in ‘my country’s’ relatively recent past, I am woefully ill-informed.

      And then I also see this today: https://opendemocracy.net/uk/timothy-gee/most-of-worlds-refugees-are-from-countries-invaded-by-britain

      It is at least arguable that the break-up of the UK as a result of Scottish independence is, looking ahead, potentially a ‘harm reduction’ strategy for the world given the historical record!

    375. Nana says:

      For goodness sake

      BREAKING Eight deposed Catalan ministers sent to prison without bail: Junqueras, Mundó, Turull, Rull, Bassa, Borràs, Forn and Romeva

      https://twitter.com/catalannews/status/926116803021099009

    376. PictAtRandom says:

      “Nana says:
      2 November, 2017 at 4:35 pm

      For goodness sake

      BREAKING Eight deposed Catalan ministers sent to prison without bail: Junqueras, Mundó, Turull, Rull, Bassa, Borràs, Forn and Romeva”

      Such men (and women) are dangerous.

    377. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      This is unacceptable they did not commit a violent act, that was the police,they ran a ballot.

      They cannot lock people up for arranging a vote in Europe in 2017.

      We need to identify Spanish businesses and boycott big time.

      Cancel that Spanish holiday, yes you know who you are, get it cancelled.

    378. Gary45% says:

      To everyone commenting on the Palestine situation, please have a look on the internet for your local Palestine support group. Up here in the Highlands we have
      Highland Palestine, we are a small group who hold meetings/film festivals, and have guest speakers from Palestine etc.
      I have posted before about the Glasgow Palestine Human Rights Campaign.
      Margaret and John run a stall outside “All Saints” shop in Buchannan Street every Saturday from I think 11 am onwards.
      Margaret can give you personal first hand experience about the situation in Palestine.
      Also have a look on you tube, “Peace, Propaganda in the Promised land,” and if you can find it “The Occupation of the American mind”, both films will give you an insight into how Zionist Israel get away with murder, yes MURDER.

    379. Gary45% says:

      Pict@4.42,
      It looks like my holidays in Spain might be coming to an end.
      Sad times ahead indeed.

    380. gus1940 says:

      O/T

      This week I have watched 2 documentaries one titled ‘Is Britain Full?’ and the other ‘How do The Super Rich Spend Their Money?’

      I was left feeling desperately depressed at the state of the UK and wondering if there was an urgent need for some sort of social revolution – peaceful and not violent.

      I wonder if anybody else who watched these programs shares my feelings.

      I would recommend that anybody who didn’t watch them does so – they should be available on the relevant iPlayer or equivalent services.

    381. mike d says:

      Jason 4.52 pm.its alright jason we are going to a caravan site in blanes in Catalonia,and the owners are Catalans.

    382. mike d says:

      Jason .6 weeks,wish all you yes voters could come with us. And you PSB’s can kiss my hairy ayrshire a**e.

    383. The more I read about the tactics lies used to stop Scottish freedom and the antics of Westminster plus the situation in Spain it reminds me of the wise man who asked Is it easier to hoodwink a nation than a child ???

    384. gus1940 says:

      O/T

      When the first SNP government came to power in 2007 one of their first actions was to scrap the ludicrous ‘Scottish Executive’ name and replace it with ‘Scottish Governmen’.

      Although it was a minority administration apart from a little huffing and puffing from the opposition parties it was accepted and there wasn’t even an attempt by WM to stop it.

      Now that The SNP have been in power for 10 years is it not high time to get rid of the equally ludicrous titles of ‘First Minister’ and ‘Presiding Officer’ and call them what they are namely ‘Prime Minister’ and ‘Speaker’.

      If the colonialist parties at Holyrood or WM object I reckon they would be very stupid to do so. Let’s call their bluff.

      While we are at it why can’t we restore the grand old titles for our towns and cities. Does ‘The City And Royal Burgh Of Edinburgh’ not sound a lot better than the bland ‘Edinburgh District Council’?

    385. mike d says:

      Nana 4.35. That is disgusting,and the EU should be demanding their immediate release. These people are not criminals.

    386. birnie says:

      O/T My wife was booked for a CT scan this afternoon. At 9.30 a.m. the hospital ‘phoned – “What would you like on your post-examination sandwiches: tuna, ham, cheese or egg?”

      Which hospital offers such a considerate service – BUPA, SPIRE, NUFFIELD? No – just our caring Scottish NHS, our wee, “crisis-stricken”, under-performing, unfit for purpose SNHS! But don’t let the BBC know!

    387. manandboy says:

      Eight ministers from Catalunia Parliament sent to five prisons in the Madrid area. They must all be pretty full with only a few cells vacant in each. What? It’s more sinister than that. It’s a fascist regime, you say? Oh, now I see!

    388. Old Pete says:

      Leaving for QT in 45 minutes.
      Three possible questions.

      Should all welfare powers and revenue be devolved to the Scottish Parliament.

      Should the Scottish government be responsible for collecting and spending all national taxes raised in Scotland.

      “The people of Scotland are sovereign,and they will be given a choice on their own future” do you(members of the panel) agree.

      Are these OK ?

    389. Robert Graham says:

      Anyone who Hopes , or expects anything other than fine words or smiling faces from the current EU hierarchy i believe are sadly deluded ,
      and expecting a 60% vote to remain in the EU wont necessarily convert to a vote for independence .

      One thing at a time , in my view Indy ref2 should be based on our inability to have a choice keep it Simple .

      The EU hierarchy have used the very cordial meetings with the scottish government simply to poke the English negotiators , this should have been recognised for what they were ,political games , well done them eh. Nice words are just nice words .

      They have openly stated they only ever deal with the current member state , not a part of a member state , so what was the f/n point ? dont hang your jacket on support from the EU . They were marked absent in 2014 dont expect a change anytime soon .

    390. manandboy says:

      Eight Catalunya Ministers sent to prison without bail in Spain. The EU will surely pay a very heavy price in lost credibility and support if it does not intervene.
      By doing nothing – apparently – what else can the public think except that the EU is supporting the Spanish Government.

    391. Capella says:

      The National article on Catalan Ministers jailed:
      http://archive.is/f7yde

    392. Capella says:

      @ Old Pete Q No 3 particularly good. Jean Freeman is on the panel so there will at least be some reasonable comment for you tonight. Enjoy the chance to see at first hand.

    393. manandboy says:

      Thursday evening is when the rubber hits the road and we start the weekend shopping, but as like last weekend, there will be no Spanish produce in our trolley, in particular, no wine. We shall have to check out wines from Catalunya!

    394. PictAtRandom says:

      “gus1940 says:
      2 November, 2017 at 5:08 pm

      O/T

      When the first SNP government came to power in 2007 one of their first actions was to scrap the ludicrous ‘Scottish Executive’ name and replace it with ‘Scottish Governmen’.

      Although it was a minority administration apart from a little huffing and puffing from the opposition parties it was accepted and there wasn’t even an attempt by WM to stop it.

      Now that The SNP have been in power for 10 years is it not high time to get rid of the equally ludicrous titles of ‘First Minister’ and ‘Presiding Officer’ and call them what they are namely ‘Prime Minister’ and ‘Speaker’.

      If the colonialist parties at Holyrood or WM object I reckon they would be very stupid to do so. Let’s call their bluff.

      While we are at it why can’t we restore the grand old titles for our towns and cities. Does ‘The City And Royal Burgh Of Edinburgh’ not sound a lot better than the bland ‘Edinburgh District Council’?”

      I suppose I’d say that a true Scottish Government would have control over a whole range of matters. Until then it’s just a Scottish administration.
      Not sure about the preferred term for First Minister — but how about Thesaurer for the person in charge of the finances and Owreseer for Speaker? Imagine how that would stick in Jackie Bird’s throat? Might even start watching ‘Patronising Scotland’ again.
      And, of course, we could avoid having things like ‘convener’ metrosplained to us as ‘chairperson’.

    395. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Old Pete here’s hoping you get to ask those questions , we’ll be watching however painful it is lol.

    396. Valerie says:

      So here’s a new tack.

      Lots of Twitter activity about Mercer, Cambridge Analytics, links to Russian bots, dark money. Investigation must be done etc.

      AND, Russia is now getting embedded in Scotland to foment unhappiness and agitate for indyref2. Vladimir likes to see all this smaller state activity.

      This is now coming from Washington Post and Ian Dunt. Pretty reputable and serious players.

    397. Meg merrilees says:

      BBC Reporter in Barcelona.

      People increasingly beginning to say that this situation is clearly political – i.e. Spanish gov. acting against legally elected representatives who were leading the Catalan Gov last week.

      No voters and those not particularly pro -indy think the Spanish gov is going to far! Hundreds already gathering on the streets as the news leaks out.

      10 former gov and elected reps. now in jail. 4 ‘ in exile’. If the arrest warrant goes through it could take some weeks.

      Lawyers for Puigdemont want to try and keep him out of jail until Dec 21st elections.

      Article in The National says that the spanish Gov issued a press release to all EU govs on how they should react to the catalan declaration of indy and the entire situation. This has been leaked by a German journalist.

    398. Valerie says:

      @ Old Pete

      Gaun yersel! Good luck. I will suffer thru it now 🙂

    399. Chick McGregor says:

      SC

      IMO the EU leaders are very concerned about the cohesion of the EU.

      Right now, I believe they are hoping against hope that the Catalan situation will simply go away.

      That is that Catalan independence supporters will get back in their box and accept things as they are.

      So the EU leadership is saying the kind of things they think might help that happen.

      When it does not happen and Madrid therefore continues with its various actions, many of which are breaking EU law, law which exists to protect EU citizens like the Catalans, then there will be a different evolving scenario.

      There has to be otherwise the EU would not be upholding its own laws.

      And they know if they do not respond in accord with their own laws, the EU project would be dead.

      Just give it some more time.

    400. winifred mccartney says:

      Old Pete good luck with questions, but don’t hold your breath. It would be interesting to hear what KD had to say in her answer that is if it made sense at all and remembering the VOW and how labour reacted to the Smith Commission proposals.

    401. schrodingers cat says:

      public announcement by Rajoy

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8oN-kPPpqE

    402. mike cassidy says:

      Old Pete

      Nothing technical, my man.

      Just go for their testicles!

      “Given the UK government is happy to cultivate a benefit system which drives people to food banks and suicide, how long can they get away with the lie that it is out of the goodness of their heart they want a too small, too poor Scotland to stay in the UK.”

    403. schrodingers cat says:

      Chick McGregor
      the eu response so far is already killing it.

      the majority of meps come from spain, france, germany, italy, belgium, holland.

      they all believe in self determination except for the minorities in their own respective countries.

      they have just realised what scotland has started will happen in their own countries. they will say nothing about catalunya, even if rajoy starts executing the catalunyan mps.

      the idea that the eu will come to our aid regardless of what westminster says or does must surely be considered delusional

    404. Vestas says:

      Said it on another site – the EU (for me and many others) died on 1 Oct 2017 when they looked the other way. Now we have overtly political EWAs issued and its fine for Spain but not for Russia? Also fine for the EU to pontificate about rule of law in newer EU states but not the grand fascist state of Spain (who remember got asylum in anothe EU state banned in 1997).

      I don’t want to be in the EU anymore. I used to but not now.

      I want Scotland independent but I no longer want nothing to do with the EU – pay their tariffs/admission fees for single market and leave them to it.

    405. Gary45% says:

      birnie@5.13
      Hope the missus is fine.
      Any Yoon trolls reading your post will be demanding the hospital say whether the Tuna was dolphin friendly, free range welfare eggs, ham from happy smiley pigs etc,=
      SNP baaad.

    406. Pacman says:

      Valerie says @ 2 November, 2017 at 5:40 pm

      So here’s a new tack.

      Lots of Twitter activity about Mercer, Cambridge Analytics, links to Russian bots, dark money. Investigation must be done etc.

      AND, Russia is now getting embedded in Scotland to foment unhappiness and agitate for indyref2. Vladimir likes to see all this smaller state activity.

      This is now coming from Washington Post and Ian Dunt. Pretty reputable and serious players.

      And the Americans and British aren’t doing anything like this? Have they done any investigation into British state activity i.e. Brigade 77, GCHQ etc in relation to indeyref2?

    407. manandboy says:

      Fallon’s resignation. Let’s get this out of the way, shall we, ‘cos it has been made up, created, not real. Fallon has agreed to resign as part of a cover-up. You can bet your house on it.

    408. PacMan says:

      Chick McGregor says @ 2 November, 2017 at 5:46 pm

      IMO the EU leaders are very concerned about the cohesion of the EU.

      Right now, I believe they are hoping against hope that the Catalan situation will simply go away.

      That is that Catalan independence supporters will get back in their box and accept things as they are.

      So the EU leadership is saying the kind of things they think might help that happen.

      When it does not happen and Madrid therefore continues with its various actions, many of which are breaking EU law, law which exists to protect EU citizens like the Catalans, then there will be a different evolving scenario.

      There has to be otherwise the EU would not be upholding its own laws.

      And they know if they do not respond in accord with their own laws, the EU project would be dead.

      Just give it some more time.

      Agreed.

      The EU doesn’t want to deal with the Catalan Crisis and want it go away.

      However, if the Catalan’s don’t walk quietly into the night and hold steadfast then they will force the EU’s hand to intervene by what you mentioned.

      Regardless of how complex any situation is, especially in politics, self preservation is a powerful motivator. The EU’s credibility as a major power will be destroyed if one of their member states acts like a third world dictatorship.

    409. Gary45% says:

      Surely the EU must get involved with the emerging crisis. When the Catalans break away from Spain it would be in the EUs best interest to welcome the Catalans as they tick all the boxes for rejoining the EU.
      I understand the current laws etc. but if this was any other country outwith the EU replicating what Rajoy is doing there would be unified outrage.
      Its high time the EU members told Rajoy to go and “Do one” or I am afraid its the end of the EU. IMHO.

    410. ALANM says:

      Re. Catalonia

      I see our unionist friends are queueing up to support the jailing of those individuals who organised a democratic independence referendum on the grounds that independence for Catalonia is “illegal.”

      Well I’m old enough to remember when it was illegal for a “coloured” person to get on a bus and sit in a seat reserved for a white person in the good old US of A. No doubt our unionist friends would’ve been queueing up to condemn them as well for their illegal actions.

    411. Golfnut says:

      @ pacman,

      The other issue regarding EU citizenship is the Brexit scenario. If the EU doesn’t pick up the ball regarding EU citizen rights for the Catalans, they are sending a very scarey message to EU citizens in the UK, we won’t protect you, if the equally venal and corrupt Westminster decides to act against their interests.
      However, I believe that the EU will act, because each member state will have vested interest in making sure their own citizens are protected.
      Time will tell.

    412. RogueCoder says:

      Last wee push for our Scotland’s Choice book! We’re 98% of target with 3 days to go – but any extra pennies will come in handy for reference material and 3rd-party expertise. We’re very grateful for every single penny!

      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/scotland-s-choice/x/6905220#/

    413. Tam the Bam. says:

      Meg Merrilees @1-44pm

      The lady Journalist Brian Taylor interviewed after FMQ’s was from Reuters.The male journalist he interviewed was one Simon Johnson…the Daily Telegraph journo who,you may recall, was only too happy to print Alistair Carmichael’s smear story regarding Nicola Sturgeon during the 2015 General Election campaign.

    414. Macart says:

      It’s been a week for having your faith in certain things knocked. Nations, institutions and individuals. Oh hell, humanity in general it seems.

      We never seem to learn. Always determined to push things to the very edge, or until the inevitable occurs. You’d think Spain, of all countries, would appreciate this quotation: “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it” George Santayana.

    415. ALANM says:

      Re. The Scotsman

      Alex Salmond has grabbed the attention of the MSM in his efforts to “take control” of the Scotsman.

      Should he succeed expect to see the Scotsman being routinely lambasted by the rest of the MSM for it’s “biased” reporting and probably even its title. The Guardian for one will no doubt be demanding that it should be renamed the “Scots Person”

    416. Breeks says:

      Petra says:

      “Meanwhile wouldn’t it just be a lot easier, make sense, to work towards ensuring that over 50% of Sovereign Scots actually want Scotland to become an Independent country, hold a referendum and get on with it Breeks? And of course if we won, and I’m sure we will, the issue of sovereignty would be resolved there and then with no need for petitions and Court cases.”

      Yeah, it’s undoubtedly a lot easier. But unfortunately it will also put Scotland in the same place as Catalonia, under the heel of UK Sovereignty rather than Spanish Sovereignty, with Westminster able to dictate whether our vote counts for anything or nothing, just like our Brexit vote, and able to shut down Holyrood just like Madrid has shut down Catalonia’s autonomous institution, and do so because they are sovereign and we are not.

      It’s too late to leave sovereignty as an unresolved issue until after the vote, because if the vote is not recognised as sovereign, then just like Catalonia, nobody will recognise it. Just like Catalonia, we will find ourselves compelled to have another vote, just like Catalonia it will be run by the sovereign government under the sovereign governments media.

      We are a sovereign country, but our own government would piss away every advantage of that sovereignty at every feasible opportunity, and deliver us a referendum as constitutionally lame as the one held in Catalonia, and cannot even address the rampant propaganda and monopolised broadcast media which will distort the agenda and narrative just as it did in 2014.

      You miss the whole point of my arguments Petra. I say repeatedly that we must get the EU to recognise some facet of our sovereignty so that the EU can recognise Scotland’s capacity to negotiate our own interests, and discuss sovereign affairs with us, and you say the EU won’t do that because we’re not independent.

      It is so utterly frustrating that any and every minor bump in the road seems to bring the whole Independence campaign shuddering to a faltering stop. What we need is a campaign that is relentless, unstoppable, and never sleeps. If he hit a problem, we go around it. If we can’t go around it, we go over it. If we can’t go over, we go under. If we can’t go under we go through it.

      Ach! The EU won’t agree to that. Oh, that’ll never work. It’s just excuse after excuse to do nothing.

      Right now, the only person I think I can identify with is Mr G A Ponsonby.

      I just cannot join the dots of the SNP’s campaign and make any sense of it. We throw away our strengths, overturn our own constitution, and leave everyone loitering with intent to vote yes, because forward momentum is utterly stagnant, aimless and bereft of leadership or positive direction.

      We won’t defend sovereignty. We won’t defend EU membership. We won’t progressively campaign for Independence. We don’t contest the media bias. We don’t care that stalwart Lieutenant’s like G A Ponsonby have invested so much of themselves in our Indy campaign but have got nothing whatsoever to sustain themselves for month, after month, after month.

      But nevermind, Brexit is going to make everything work out fine, and make everybody vote for Independence. I don’t want to sound defeatist, but I have yet to see any progressive initiative that inspires me to believe that’s what’s going to happen.

    417. ronnie anderson says:

      @ ALANM comoan noo you must admit the knuckle draggers hud made some changes in England , no rooms to let for Blacks or Blacks not welcomed in Pub/Clubs but they still have a long way to go yet in accepting they European furriners & Us nth britain Scots .

    418. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Mike D

      Enjoy your trip bring us back a list of Catalan wines

    419. ronnie anderson says:

      They Bastards at Bbc Scotland advertizing their programme on Trump .TRUMP THE SCOTTISH PRESIDENT . How many more insults to the Scottish People can these Bastards come up with .

      DONT PAY THE BBC LICENCE FEE .

    420. Petra says:

      @ stewartb at 4:43pm …… “World’s refugees.”

      An interesting article Stewart. Westminster behind over half of the world’s refugees: a fact that won’t surprise many on here right enough. Pulled up the drawbridge now and left Europe to deal with their latest round of sh*t.

      And then you look at Scotland with many millions having had to flee from here, over time, for one reason or another. With less suffering of course. Amazing the amount of damage one wee country has managed to inflict worldwide. The horrendous level of absolute chaos and profound misery that they’ve created.

      It’s no wonder that they tried to stuff the Battle of Hastings, War of the Roses, the Tudors and World Wars 1 and 2 , as examples, down our throats in an attempt to cover up the reality of what’s been going on.

      As you say, Scotland pulling out of this Union may be doing the planet a big favour. Curb the warmongers.

    421. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Derick fae Yell at 12.13

      Mostly nonsense. It has already been established that as Scotland fulfils all the requirements of EU membership already and has been in the EU for over forty years its accession (or continued membership) will be almost immediate and several well placed EU sources have indicated this very firmly.

      The notion that the EU would hold up the membership of the country with most of Europe’ oil and gas, most of its fishing grounds and a strategic command of the North Atlantic is absurd and unionist scaremongering.

      I know many SNP and independence supporters who voted to leave the EU. I know not one of them who will not vote for independence in our next referendum and the over exact conflation of these two positions is unwarranted.

    422. manandboy says:

      Breeks. Half of Scotland is and wants to remain British. The other half don’t seem to want Independence badly enough. It’s gonnae take more pain I guess, but it won’t be Brexitthat will do it, because no matter how drastic it is, Westminster is going to dress Brexit up to make it look like a box of cakes.

    423. Meg merrilees says:

      Tam the Bam

      thanks for the info… but why does Taylor have to interview anyone about FMQ’S?

      No-one interviews reporters from the Herald or the Scotsman after PMQ’s?

      Quaint BBC Custom or deliberate attempt to suit the’ too wee, too poor, too stupid’ school of thought?

    424. schrodingers cat says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Mostly nonsense. It has already been established that as Scotland fulfils all the requirements of EU membership already and has been in the EU for over forty years
      ——————–
      straw man, no one here is suggesting that this isnt the case
      ——————
      its accession (or continued membership) will be almost immediate and several well placed EU sources have indicated this very firmly.
      —————
      we will need to apply as a new nation via article 49. i have no doubts this will be a quick process.
      ——————
      The notion that the EU would hold up the membership of the country with most of Europe’ oil and gas, most of its fishing grounds and a strategic command of the North Atlantic is absurd and unionist scaremongering.
      ————————–
      no one is saying they would, what derik is pointing out is that during indyref2, the eu will say nothing but a few well appointed eu politicians will come out and say we cant join and that is what will be reported on the bbc
      ———

      I know many SNP and independence supporters who voted to leave the EU. I know not one of them who will not vote for independence in our next referendum and the over exact conflation of these two positions is unwarranted.
      ———————

      personal anecdotes are not really very useful. stu has conducted full scale scottish polls which show there is a % (10-13) of yes voters who will vote no in indyref2 over the issue of the eu.
      we need to convince them to vote yes

      once again, you are confusing the politics of a 6 month indy campaign with the reality we will face after we vote yes

    425. Albert Herring says:

      The position of First Minister should of course be renamed as High Heid Yin.

    426. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      manandboy at 7.11

      Half of Scotland does not want to remain British. Most Scots, whether Yes or NO voters last time,do not see themselves as British.

      We started the last campaign with support for independence below 30% and came within a ba’hair of winning – only defeated by a scurrilous campaign of lies, distortions and scaremongering.
      Without a campaign at all we are at about 45% and climbing and I have little doubt that our opponents know that from this point we will win the next campaign which explains the continuous and increasingly frenzied anti SNP anti Scottish propaganda we are being subjected to – which is not working for them.

      Most Scots would like Scotland to be independent. Some (a diminishing percentage) require to be reassured that we are economically self sufficient. When we do that -and this is the number one task-we assuredly will win.

      The shambles over Brexit distracting Westminster from Scotland gives us the biggest opportunity we will ever get.

      I get very fed up with the fainthearts and pessimists. Sometimes I feel that our recognised enemies are not our biggest problem.

    427. Dan Huil says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill 7:36pm

      Well said, Dave. We should all remember just how far we’ve travelled towards independence in the last few years.

      Aye, it can be frustrating for those of us who take a very keen interest in Scotland’s politics but we must recognize that the lumbering Scottish public takes a wee bit time to catch us up.

      The No lot can only rely [again] on fear, negativity and the vile britnat media. I believe the Scottish public realize this more and more.

      Not long to go now.

    428. HandandShrimp says:

      Had a look on the HYS for the FMQ discussion re alternative tax structures. HYS has always been a retirement home for the elderly, bewildered Tory but the foaming at the mouth tonight is a joy to watch. Enraged and incoherent demands for the SNP to be jailed along with predictions of the complete destruction of the SNP.

      The nurse really needs to get their medication into them a bit earlier in the evening 🙂

    429. Meg merrilees says:

      Just listening back to FMQ’s… anybody else clock (t)Ruthless using the phrase ‘These Islands’ instead of rUK, when referring to the tax situation outwith Scotland.

      Jackie Bailie giving us an Arithmetic lesson and re-using the phrase ‘Black Hole’ — haven’t heard that one for a while.

      Ken Mc Intosh failing – yet again- to keep a lid on the disrespect!!!

    430. schrodingers cat says:

      good quote regarding catalunya

      Only free men can negotiate. A prisoner cannot enter into contracts. (Nelson Mandela)

    431. Petra says:

      @ Breeks at 6:48pm

      A bit of scaremongering going on there, imo, Breeks. Scotland is NOT Catalonia. The issue of sovereignty hadn’t been resolved in 2014, so are you trying to say that if we’d won Westminster would have denied us our Independence and shut Holyrood down because we hadn’t managed to get the EU and UN to accept the concept of our ‘probationary sovereignty’ beforehand. Absolute nonsense.

      “What we need is a campaign that is relentless, unstoppable and never sleeps.”

      There are thousands of people out there, and on here, who are doing just that Breeks. All we have to do is get support over 50% and that won’t be too difficult to do now, especially with all that’s going on.

      “I don’t want to sound defeatist but I have yet to see any progressive initiative that inspires me to believe that’s (Independence) what’s going to happen.”

      Breeks there’s loads going on in the real world from SIC to Wee Ginger Dugs latest initiative to whatever’s going on behind the scenes with the SNP, as examples. Just because you don’t see it or get involved in such ‘initiatives’ doesn’t mean it’s not happening. It’s also quite telling that after three years of absolute onslaught from the MSM we’ve managed to hold ground. Time to show a bit more positivity.

    432. Valerie says:

      @ Pac man 6.17pm

      Aye! If Vlad is on the side of indyref2, then he is just adding some balance.

      I had a smile at the speculation, because it is plausible. It’s that way because the Tories in particular made it that way. If this country was run in the interest of the people, there wouldn’t be these cracks.

      We Indy folk are heaving away in desperation, we know the future. I’m not that fussy anymore who might take a shot at those dead weights on our ankles.

    433. Petra says:

      @ Old Pete, if it’s not too late think about mentioning the fact that Westminster still has control over 80% of economic levers and 85% control over welfare powers. That links to one of your questions. Good luck and enjoy ….. if you can, lol.

      Oh and tell Dumblebum that we’re all asking for him ….. to cut out the biased behaviour.

    434. Robert Peffers says:

      @schrodingers cat says: 2 November, 2017 at 11:43 am:

      “you have said on many occassions that international law would force the UN/EU to intercede on scotlands behalf if westminster started to get rough with holyrood. well robert, those same international laws also apply to catalunya and the UN/EU have done nothing. the reverse in fact.”

      I’ll have to keep this brief I’m up to my ears in something just now. First of all international law is similar to any other law. It cannot act until someone or some government or some official political body makes a complaint or requests that the International court or the UN or whatever considers the matter.

      So just what do you think the Catalonian leaders are doing in Brussels? They sure are not on their holidays. Those leaders have stated the are NOT there to claim asylum.
      ——————–
      these people are speaking for their own big factions because the EU has, as I stated, not formally debated the matter.
      ———————————–
      aye, and theresa, corbyn and cable are speaking for their own big factions because westminster has, as I stated, not formally debated the matter. (10.30 today i believe).

      Statements by even a Prime Minister are only the Governments view and in the UK that is usually either one party’s view or a coalition Governments view. If the Commons doesn’t like it someone moves a motion against it and, if seconded there is then a debate. Government, even in the UK is both the Government and the opposition. It worse case scenario someone raises a motion of no-confidence in the government and if it passes the government falls.

      Nothing is the view of a parliament until it has been debated, voted upon and the motion passed. It remains the view of, usually, the head of the party in government but you know as well as I do that Government ministers pontificate and get found wanting when it comes to enforcement. Mundell, in particular,l has come out with some real idiotic claptrap that the Tory party has then denied.

      “but by your logic the uk has not rejected Catalunya!!”

      Read the words – the term UK means United Kingdom and a Kingdom is just that – a monarchy. In this case it is legally only a constitutional Monarchy. It is not a country nor is it a state.

      The Queen of England is properly described as the Queen of the Kingdom of England who is also thus Queen of Wales & N.I. but also legally Queen of Scots, (not Scotland). She is also Queen of Canada, Queen of Australia, Queen of New Zealand and quite a few other countries. But the monarchy of England legally delegated their royal powers, (sovereignty), to the parliament of the Kingdom of England Parliament in 1688 during the English Glorious Revolution.

      Legal fact and how Westminster operates in fact are two very different things. How can Westminster be the Government of the United Kingdom while at the same time governing only the country of England that has no elected parliamentarians?

      They only get away with the things they do because the electorate allows them to. The UK has no constitution and it is a rat bag of totally intolerable anti-democratic claptrap.

      Westminster bends the rules to suit the occasion and often one occasions interpretation is contrary to another occasion.

      So no – the UK has not either supported Catalonia or Spain and they will only have done so when The House of Commons does so after a debate and vote and then been considered by the House of Lords.

    435. Shinty says:

      Petra -Time to show a bit more positivity.

      I agree, the Yes movement is like big dug laying upside down on the sofa pretending to be asleep. Until it’s time for ‘walkies’.
      He doesn’t fall off the sofa in a state of stupor, he’s there ready before you get your coat on.

    436. stewartb says:

      schrodingers cat @ 7:23 pm and Dave McEwan Hill:

      Not sure who said what between you two but someone said this:

      “no one is saying they (the EU) would, what derik is pointing out is that during indyref2, the eu will say nothing but a few well appointed eu politicians will come out and say we cant join and that is what will be reported on the bbc.”

      In my opinion, this is absolutely a crucial point. And so we must minimise offering a proposition for the future that is not within our, Scotland’s, gift.

      We must not re-run IndyRef1 regarding EU membership (and currency). Our opponents will surely find someone ‘authoritative’ to say we can’t have ‘it’ (whatever ‘it’ is) and demand Plan B, and then Plan C and so on.

      However, a newly independent Scotland can be established with a deliverable proposition that states:
      (i) our future will be in a close social, commercial, economic and security relationship in Europe;
      (ii) our first indy government will negotiate a place for Scotland in the EU and put the results to a vote of the people; and
      (iii) as a pragmatic – and perhaps interim, perhaps ‘permanent’ – arrangement (the people will decide), obtain European single market membership plus access to multiple international free trade arrangements via immediate (as fast as possible) EFTA membership.

      I voted Remain in the EU referendum as the best in a binary choice. I based this on the particular context of Scotland (still) in the UK and the UK in the EU, with an EU membership deal specific to the UK, characterised by what was extant plus the further (limited) concessions David Cameron achieved in his negotiations with the EU.

      And I voted against what I saw being offered on the UK Leave side, and notably, by whom.

      Although on balance pro-EU, I wish to reserve my democratic right to make a choice on EU membership based on the detailed terms of EU membership that an independent Scotland can achieve.

      I am also keen to built as wide a consensus as possible within Scotland NOW for achieving Scotland’s independence – and then for us all as citizens of an independent Scotland to debate and decide on the nature of our best interests in Europe (including Scots fishermen and farmers) – and also, of course, our best interests in framing a future relationship between Scotland and our neighbours in the Kingdom of Greater England.

    437. RogueCoder says:

      Okay, this just in:

      Phantom Power Films are going to Catalonia to interview people on the ground, because what we’re getting from European media is bullshit – they’ve all got status quo interests to protect.

      PPF just asked on Twitter for a small amount of funding, circa £300, to help cover immediate travel expenses. Because my crowdfunder for “Scotland’s Choice” has reached 100% of target with 3 days still to go, I immediately offered to turn those last 3 days over to Phantom Power to help fund their Catalan filming.

      The short story here is that, because of the pressure of time and events, I’m short-cutting the usual crowdfunding setup to help Phantom Power raise some funds quickly. The first £500 OVER our original “Scotland’s Choice” target will be directed to Phantom Power Films for their immediate travel and accommodation.

      So, to recap; Scotland’s Choice is now fully-funded (thank you!) – but because of events in Catalonia, and Phantom Power needing some money to cover travel and accommodation costs there while they gather the TRUTH – I’m turning the rest of our crowdfunder over to their emergency project.

      You can donate to Phantom Power’s expedition by donating here: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/scotland-s-choice/x/6905220#/

    438. pacman says:

      Valerie says @ 2 November, 2017 at 7:58 pm

      @ Pac man 6.17pm

      Aye! If Vlad is on the side of indyref2, then he is just adding some balance.

      I had a smile at the speculation, because it is plausible. It’s that way because the Tories in particular made it that way. If this country was run in the interest of the people, there wouldn’t be these cracks.

      We Indy folk are heaving away in desperation, we know the future. I’m not that fussy anymore who might take a shot at those dead weights on our ankles.

      I tried keeping an open mind to your comment until I read Vlad.

      Russia is only interested in Russia’s interest. It is the same as America is only interested in it’s interests as well as Britain’s.

      Let’s not kid ourselves, if there is Russian interests in Scottish independence, it is in Russia’s interests, especially as they love playing the long game. Short term, breaking up the UK, then the EU and then dealing with a number of small countries when the Artic thaws and the shipping lanes open up there.

      Why is that any different from the Americans who want us to spend billions on their nuclear weapons that will never be used and pamp it close to the biggest population centre in Scotland as well as the British who see that as an acceptable price to pay for the illusion that they and the US are equal partners at the world table?

      Calling out the BS that comes out of the United States about Russia isn’t being a pawn of ‘Vlad’. As mentioned earlier we shouldn’t depend on anybody to get our independence but that doesn’t mean we should be picking side of battles fought by other countries for the possible reward that they might back us at a future date.

    439. Derick fae Yell says:

      Bluster and magical thinking lost us the 2014 Referendum. We cannot go into another vote on the same basis, because if we do, we will lose again.

      Only an independent state can join the EU, or indeed EFTA. And the only way into the EU is via the Article 49 process. There is no magical route in, and certainly no even more magical way to just magically stay in.

      We know how long the EU accession process takes, because we know how long it took other countries to join. It wouldn’t take Scotland the ten years it took Croatia, but it is very far from instant.

      Sweden applied to join the EU, from within EFTA, on July 1st 1991. Accession negotiations took three years, being completed on 01 March 1994 and ratified by the EU Parliament on 04 May 1994. Sweden joined the EU on 01 January 1995. Because the EEA agreement had been signed in 1994 Sweden didn’t then have to join the EEA (a six to eight month process)

      It takes the time it takes because of the number of parties involved – the sheer bureaucracy. Kirsty Hughes and Tobias Locke put a ‘normal’ accession process as four years. Pretty much on the same timeline that Sweden and Finland took.

      http://www.europeanfutures.ed.ac.uk/article-4667

      The EFTA route is potentially significantly – years – faster. Because there are only four parties to agree with and the criteria are very straightforward.

      EFTA to EEA then becomes easier, politically. Because independence would be a fait accompli, not a direct threat to the unitary member states of the EU.

      Catalonia hasn’t really factored in my thinking on this at all. Which is mostly procedural.

      However, the current EU focus is not resulting in a majority for independence. No shift whatsoever. When the strategy is not working, let’s not take the Scottish Labour approach of blaming the people for their ‘stupidity’. Let’s find a policy platform that the largest number can vote for. I find it pretty difficult to imagine that the stance that the Commission, member states and assorted politicos have taken towards Catalonia has increased the pro-EU, Yes, vote. Rather the opposite. I voted Remain in 2016 without hesitation. Now, I’m not so sure. Tie a Yes vote to EU membership and we will lose.

      No Yes vote = no EU membership, no EFTA membership, no single market membership by any route. Let’s win next time.

    440. pacman says:

      manandboy says @ 2 November, 2017 at 7:11 pm

      Breeks. Half of Scotland is and wants to remain British. The other half don’t seem to want Independence badly enough. It’s gonnae take more pain I guess, but it won’t be Brexitthat will do it, because no matter how drastic it is, Westminster is going to dress Brexit up to make it look like a box of cakes.

      Interest rates have just gone up.

      When that starts to bit ordinary folk, it is possible that the slowdown in the UK spending culture affects Sterling against the Euro. As well as having to tighten their belts at home, the average UK punter can’t afford their annual cheap Spanish holiday.

      If that scenario does occur, I wonder how much of their sugar coated dressing up of Brexit will actually be palatable to the Great British public?

    441. Valerie says:

      @ Pac man

      There is little individuals can do about Russian interference, as its mostly on-line, bots and the network of dark money. We are in a mess, and there are numerous exploiting that.

      Of course we all know Russia acts in its own interests, as does any power.

      Not sure how I’m picking sides. I’m on the side of independence, and I read and react to anything with that in mind.

    442. ronnie anderson says:

      O/T .
      Interested
      Ride for our brother Dave Lohoar
      Nov 9
      Thurs 12:45 · St Kenneth’s Parish Church · Leven
      You like YesBikers for Scottish Independence .

      Dave was a stalwart of the Indy movement & will be sorely missed .

    443. Effijy says:

      Murdo Fraser on radio shortbread.

      He is sorry that Fallon the sex pest who’s real story is to be covered up and never brought to book?

      He wants sex perverts to stay in the Tory Party!

      He also went on to say that the Tories back the SNP initiative to cut Air Passenger Duty to stimulate the economy, but attacks SNP as this is a Tax break for the rich???

      So Murdo, some one with a £29 International flight from Ryan Air is rich????

      It must be that the Tories only want UK passports for their rich supporters because the tax on owning one is £72.50 plus a £5 photo, and even more if you need help with the ridiculous form filling.

      Murdo really I an imbecilic.
      No wonder the vast majority of voters reject him right off.

    444. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Oh dear, I regret to say this but I’m not too sorry to have mostly missed WoS today, because it seems the EFTA bores have been on another if their major offensives again. Yawn.

      The UKGov is coming apart at the seams, Brexit is the biggest disaster to befall us intentionally since Suez in 1956, the fundamental truth of which is that there is no good Brexit, just different degrees of bad, and we have the biggest opportunity we will ever have in our lifetimes to demonstrate that Scotland is being wantonly misgoverned against its will. But never mind any of that, we must instead waste our energies in arguing once again (and again…) about the supposed need for a self-evidently inferior trading arrangement that is only supported by a minority.

      It helps to know where some of these people are coming from. One of the major proponents of this EFTA thing is a longstanding Leaver, one of the sore losers who never misses an opportunity to casually wish away the 62% majority and assert the self-evident absurdity that it’s irrelevant to winning. Someone who also wants to keep us out of the EEA as well as the EU. (Even though some of the arguments being deployed by these folk depend on at least remaining in the EEA. Duh.)

      What you also need to know is that the isolationist thinking behind this is not a return to the 50’s but a return to the 30’s. (The 1830s, that is. With the Tory Corn Laws.) High tariff barriers to supposedly protect food producers. Which may be superficially fine for them, but what it also means is high food prices for consumers. You and me. As with the much-lauded Norway and Switzerland. Tough if you’re already struggling financially as it is, but who cares about mere details like that?

      It’s not even that sustainably wonderful for producers either, since you just get trade tit-for-tat as in the 1930s, your overseas markets (EU or other) respond in kind and your export trade suffers as well.

      We’ve been through all this already in the past, but isolationists are very, very slow (make that non-) learners.

      Oh, and don’t make the other mistake of thinking that these people give a damn about any other political issue that you might care about, eg. Catalonia. Great for cynically exploiting people’s righteous anger and frustration, but this is just business for business types, folks.

    445. schrodingers cat says:

      rp
      i take you point, you are correctly describing parlaiment proceedure,in many parlaiments around the world. however, the parliaments do not sanction the every word of their presidents or prime minister, nor are the leaders of opposition parties every comment sanction/voted upon by their own parties.
      often issues are only debated upon (in westminster sometimes in side chambers). occassionally, on very serious issues, specific questions, eg should the uk recognise catalunya etc are tabled for a vote in the commons.

      but no such motion has been put forward for the HOC to vote on. neither will there be.

      So yesterday the EU had a debate on catalunya
      The debate was on the “constitution, rule of law and fundamental rights in Spain in the light of the events of Catalonia”
      The Green group called for tougher wording to debate the “police violence against peaceful citizens in Catalonia.”

      http://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-defends-use-of-proportionate-force-in-catalonia/

      but there was no vote, anymore than holyrood voted on the questions tabled today.
      the leaders of the 3 biggest alliances agreed in principle with the position of the eu commision.

      to dismiss everything that the big players in the eu have said as not being the official position of the eu in general, pointing to the procedural doctrine that a vote has not been held, isnt tenable

      It is all just very very disappointing. it will and already has undermined the eu enormously

    446. schrodingers cat says:

      Robert J. Sutherland

      deary me

      you may not agree with me and others on this issue, but descending into insults conspiracy theories about us being secret brexiteers does you no service.

    447. Grey gull says:

      Dave Mcewan Hill 7.11 have had a bottle of wine but you’re talking sense

    448. Alastair says:

      Jobs Board – Vacancy
      Major country looking for Defence Minister to run its Army, Navy, Airforce and Nuclear weapons.
      No experience necessary.

    449. Dr Jim says:

      After Independence Scots or whoever who want to call themselves British still can it’s a geographical fact you’re still from Britain nobody’s suggesting taking anything away from people it’s just those of us who would prefer not to be British get to call ourselves Scottish on our documents, so it’s the Scottish English British who are forcing us to be what we don’t want to be, not the other way round

      England doesn’t own the word *British* (it was around before they were here) even though they might think they do

    450. Derick fae Yell says:

      Ad hominem abuse is aye a sign of a weak argument

    451. george wood says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      2 November, 2017 at 2:08 pm

      “too many people are confusing the position we need to take to win indyref2 and the reality an independent scotland will face once we have voted yes.

      case in point, jim sillers didnt support salmonds currency union position during indyref1, he prefered a scots pound, Why? not because sillers didnt think a CU wasnt the best and easiest solution in the short term after a yes vote, or indeed that westminster would refuse it, he believed that the morning of a yes vote in indyref1, westminster would have accept a CU, nay, they would have begged for one. No, he prefered we propose a £scots because it didnt need an agreement from westminster which the CU did. this left an open goal for better together to rubbish salmonds plans for a currency, and they took it. ”

      Do you seriously believe that we would have done better in Indy1 if we had gone for a Scots pound?

      A Scots pound would have been relentlessly slaughtered by the unionist press. You can imagine the stories on central banks, runs on the Scots pound, credit ratings, unpopular currency etc. It would have been an unionists wet dream.

      A Currency Union neutered all that and left the unionists floundering. They were reduced to hoping Carney would come to their rescue, but he didn’t. All they could come up with is it’s our ball and we’re not playing, or you can’t use the pound, or it’s not proper Independence – all nonsense.

      We got to 45% without being monstered over the currency and I doubt we would have got over 40% if we had gone with a Scots pound.

      Oh and taking Sillars side over the SNP is not a wise thing to do. There is a reason he is given so much air time by the unionists.

    452. Question Time from Scotland as usual dominated by the English Oxford elite,

      Dimbleby (Bullingdon Club)
      Daniel Hannan Member European Parliament,mouthy narcissistic f@cker helped drag UK out of EU,
      Anne McElvoy embedded in Right Wing UK MSM ,BBC,Telegraph,Times,Spectator,
      Owen Jones mouthy narcissistic f@cker hater of Scotland and its quest for Independence from right wing dominated England.

    453. stewartb says:

      Robert J. Sutherland

      I spent some time today, and indeed over weeks and months, reading and thinking about the diverse contributions on an independent Scotland’s place in Europe and how to approach this issue in an IndyRef2 campaign.

      I have made my modest contributions on this subject today and previously in the spirit of open and constructive debate, amongst people with a shared outcome in mind, on an issue that, in my view at least tactically, involves what are real ‘dilemmas’. I have welcomed and learned from diverse inputs.

      With regret, I can only repeat a prior remark on your contribution at 9.50pm – “deary me”!

    454. Rock says:

      Rock (31st October – Playing by Madrid Rules):

      “Spain will almost certainly seek their extradition, which Belgium will have to accept.

      I hope the embassy of Equador is big enough to accommodate them all.”

      Dave McEwan Hill,

      “He is out of the reach of the Spanish government and a visible indictment of its anti democratic behaviour. They can’t touch him and nobody is about to extradite him. The EU is being put on the spot.”

      Rock:

      “He is very much in reach of the Spanish government. Wait till he is charged. Hopefully he has plans to escape to a country where he will be safe.”

      Meg merrilees says:
      2 November, 2017 at 2:46 pm

      “Spanish prosecutor has sent out a request for a European Arrest warrant for Puigdemont”

      Clueless pompous armchair pundit Dave McEwan Hill, you have been proven completely wrong. Care to admit it?

    455. Meg merrilees says:

      Rogue Coder

      that’s a generous gesture – well done.
      Had been going to contribute to your fund tonight, but delight to contribute to Phantom Power Films instead.

      Can you remind them that there is a University professor(?) who contacted Liz Castro – I think – offering to accommodate and feed any one who wanted to come over from Scotland to help them out. I’m sure PPF meet that criteria.

    456. TheWasp says:

      The political commentator guy on the Stephen Nolan QT show on 5 live says that the new defense boy will taking over from the maybot very shortly, from a good source apparently, and he has unconfirmed and uncorroborated, so he can’t divulge, sex pest info about a screed of Tory MPs

    457. Meg merrilees says:

      Rock

      I posted a later point of information, @ 5.40, from BBC reporter in Barcelona saying that it could well take until Dec 21st to extradite Puigdemont.
      This was also borne out by another expert interviewed live to R4 this evening ( after 6) who said it could take several weeks to action any Arrest Warrant.

    458. Phronesis says:

      Still no good news about Brexit. It remains a bizarre act self harm for no other reason than to appease the hard right who -let’s face it- won’t be lining up at the food banks in solidarity with the poor unfortunate minions. ‘Collective fantasy, folly, foolish, unedifying’- a few choice words that describe the behaviour and incompetencies of this current WM regime.

      ‘The inability of David Davis and his colleagues to make the hoped-for progress in the Article 50 discussions does not stem from Mrs May’s tactical ineptitude or clumsy negotiating tactics. It stems rather from the traumatic confrontation between the collective fantasy of the Conservative government which is Brexit, and the economic and political realities represented by Michel Barnier…

      It is a familiar mantra of British ministers that both the UK and the EU have an interest in coming to an agreement for an orderly British withdrawal. The often unacknowledged problem with this formulation is that the two sides define their interests in these talks in such radically different and probably incompatible ways…

      Most other European leaders do not wish to punish the UK for its decision to leave the EU. But they certainly do not consider it as part of their job to save the foolish British from the consequences of their folly. Even less are they prepared to reward the seceding British by allocating them a more favourable set of economic rights and responsibilities than that they currently enjoy as members…

      British diplomats sometimes like to claim that they are unusually skilled at putting themselves in the position of those with whom they are negotiating. That anyway doubtful claim is certainly not borne out by the Brexit negotiations…

      Mr Barnier’s remark that the UK would not be allowed after Brexit to combine the rights of Norway under the EEA agreement with the obligations of Canada in its free trade agreement was probably intended as a statement of the blindingly obvious…

      If and when it becomes clear that there is no “good deal” on offer, that we cannot have our cake and eat it, that Brexit is far from a cost-free option, all the reasonable expectation must be that it will change at least some minds among the wider British public. To what extent and how quickly this will occur is difficult to predict…

      It is a familiar and justified criticism of the Conservatives that they put Party interests above those of the country on the European issue. This criticism is particularly applicable to those like Ken Clarke who claim to understand the central importance of the EU to British political and economic stability, but have acquiesced in the Eurosceptic annexation of their Party…

      The spectacle of two thirds of British MPs awaiting permission from the opinion polls to articulate their views on Brexit is an unedifying one, but it is the distasteful reality…

      It would be a stupendous but entirely conceivable irony if next year’s robust assertion of British Parliamentary sovereignty was not to embrace Brexit as a resumption of “control” but rather roundly to reject the whole Brexit chimera’

      http://fedtrust.co.uk/hard-brexit-or-no-brexit-that-is-the-question/

      Of course the biggest irony would be an independent Scotland deciding for itself the nature of its relationship with Europe.

    459. mike cassidy says:

      Derek 9.33

      Essential reading for those thinking on how individual countries can acquire membership of the EU.

      http://archive.is/Ehn1A

      And a link to the Berlin Process thinking mentioned in it.

      http://archive.is/A9pSQ

    460. Old Pete says:

      Back home from QT, they did not use my questions. Audience heavily leaning to Labour and Tory supporters, I was not surprised. No questions in support of Independence but two attacking the SNP. Still you will laugh at the question from an old Tory at the end.

    461. meg merrilees says:

      Old Pete

      Just in time to listen to it all again on R5 live

    462. Bob p says:

      Old pete 10.49pm.same Old,same Old, from unionist Scotland pete. My brother up there at the moment out visiting family in ayrshire. Populace seems to be unionist duh. God help Scotland.

    463. Derick fae Yell says:

      Mike Cassidy

      thanks for the links

      As it happens I was in Albania in 1999. Driving a lorry with an aid convoy from Shetland. All the way up to Kukes. A wild trip.

      Thousands of people camped out in tractor trailers and tents, in a field, and still arriving from Kosovo. Being preyed on by scumbags, as is usual in such situations. UNHCR as much use as a chocolate teapot, but at least dropping big water carriers.

      But anyway, the only new building in Kukes at the time was the Mosque. Saudi money, rather than Turkish, I understood. Strange to hear the call to prayer in a broken down town in the mountains. And a German missionary who had a bit of a spook feel about him. Nice enough fellow.

    464. pacman says:

      Valerie says @ 2 November, 2017 at 9:37 pm

      @ Pac man

      There is little individuals can do about Russian interference, as its mostly on-line, bots and the network of dark money. We are in a mess, and there are numerous exploiting that.

      Of course we all know Russia acts in its own interests, as does any power.

      Not sure how I’m picking sides. I’m on the side of independence, and I read and react to anything with that in mind.

      While I lurk in this site a lot and when I have something interesting to say, I post on it. Because of this interaction, it is a bit hard to get to ‘know’ posters in here. Therefore, I wasn’t sure what your posts were about in relation to Russia and if you were just parroting the BS spouted out by the MSM.

      Lets face it, everybody is using bots and other pieces of technology in the age of technology where a certain part of the population that is termed low information voters can be influenced. It’s being going on since the dawn of time but has become more sophisticated lately and even more so now that machine learning is becoming affordable to those with deep enough pockets.

      The only thing we can do is to be keep ahead as much as we humanely possible by trying to get as information available to us in order to keep an informed opinion and not be manipulated by those who have no interest in our well-being.

    465. mike cassidy says:

      Phronesis 10.44

      I was sure the ongoing disaster of brexit negotiations was down to mainly Tory arrogance.

      Of course we can cancel our subscription and still get all the benefits.

      I still think that – with one new proviso.

      After reading this article, which I posted about earlier I think its beginning to dawn on them that its not going to happen.

      That they are not returning to that fantasy, Sunday afternoon, black and white war film world where they ruled the waves.

      When the Tories start hinting at the likely possibility of some future proffering of the diplomatic begging bowl to Africa, you have to wonder exactly what those series of secret Brexit reports are telling them.

      http://archive.is/zPKDJ#selection-1435.150-1435.354

    466. Meg merrilees says:

      Tory guy speaking on QT is a total joke … they’re discussing Catalonia.

      Can we imagine if Cameron had locked up Alex Salmond? ( but skirted clear of saying can we imagine if Scotland was told – you can’t have a referendum, now is not the time – ha ha.)

      Can you imagine a situation where WM says we need to British-ise Scotland in the way that Spain has said we need to Spanish-ise Catalonia?

      Aye right!

    467. cirsium says:

      @schrodingers cat

      Liked your arguments at 3.19pm

    468. PJM says:

      Jean Freeman introduced by David Dimblegit as former communist!
      Why not mention Anne Mcelvoy’s time spent in East Germany? Or that Enoch Powell was one of Daniel Hannan’s heroes? Or Kezia Dugdale’s sad attempt to start her political career with the SNP? If Claire Fox was on would Dimblehimbo mention her RCP past?
      BBC bollocks as usual.

    469. manandboy says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      “I get very fed up with the fainthearts and pessimists. Sometimes I feel that our recognised enemies are not our biggest problem.”

      I’ve just got back to the blog, Dave, after a shift in the family kitchen and so catching up with the comments I soon came across your own made earlier at 7.11pm. I was taking your comments on board and with hindsight I could see that I had succumbed to a dose of the downies aided and abetted by a couple of comments I’d read and then ouch! and suddenly I’m the Yes Movement’s biggest problem!

      Well, Dave, let me assure you that the downies never last very long and I’m quickly the right way up again. Actually I only get down after reading too much BritNat propaganda but the events in Catalonia are not helping me stay positive today.
      So thanks anyway, Dave, for the heads up and I will try to avoid those little patches of pessimism, they’re like black ice in some ways, you don’t see them till its too late and before you can do anything about it your heading for the ditch. Cheers.

    470. Rock says:

      Meg merrilees,

      “Rock

      I posted a later point of information, @ 5.40, from BBC reporter in Barcelona saying that it could well take until Dec 21st to extradite Puigdemont.”

      Whatever the formalities, I had correctly predicted that Spain would seek extradition while Dave McEwan Hill tried to prove me wrong:

      “He is out of the reach of the Spanish government and a visible indictment of its anti democratic behaviour. They can’t touch him and nobody is about to extradite him. The EU is being put on the spot.”

      I had also correctly predicted that Spain would crush the “separatists” although I had at least expected the EU to make a few noises:

      Rock (19th September – “The warning notice”):

      “The difference is spineless “sovereign” Scots bottled it despite getting a free vote whereas the Catalonians are showing real spine, although they will be crushed by the Spanish state while the EU does little more than make a few noises.”

      Rock (1st October – “Homage To Catalonia”):

      “The fascist Spanish state had been openly preparing this for the last couple of weeks.

      Anyone heard any comment about “democracy” from the EU or UN?

      The EU and UN Establishments are no better than the British Establishment.”

      Rock (1st November – “Playing by Madrid Rules”):

      “The EU and powerful leaders of EU members have made it perfectly clear that the referendum was illegal and that Catalonia is not welcome in the EU.”

      Dave McEwan Hill:

      “Provide some evidence for this statement.

      The EU has pointed out that the Spanish Government judges the referendum illegal and the EU has made no statement that Catalonia is not welcome in the EU. The notion that the EU would prevent an independent Catalonia being a member is absurd.”

      It is time Dave McEwan Hill gets out of his “independence supporting” The National bubble.

    471. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Nice balance on Question Time from Kilmarnock. In a country with a nationalist majority in parliament, more nationalist MPS than all the unionist MPs put together and nationalists as significantly the biggest party in local government we have three English unionists, one Scottish unionist and one nationalist on the panel.

    472. Rock says:

      In April Robert Peffers was boasting that “the EU and UN would be on it like a flash” if the UK government didn’t respect the results of Scotland’s “illegal” referendum:

      Robert Peffers (7th April – “Unionist Manifesto Update”):

      “Just let them try and NOT respect the results. The EU and UN would be on it like a flash as the Westminster Government has signed up to both of their treaties that specifically have written into them the human right of Self Determination.”

      Rock,

      “I can say with 100% confidence that the EU and UN would do absolutely nothing that would make us independent in such a scenario.”

      There is no difference between Catalonia, a region of Spain, and Scotland, the Northern region of the UK, in the eyes of the EU and UN.

      Even Ireland will bow to UK pressure and not recognise Scotland’s independence through an “illegal” referendum.

      Clueless pompous armchair pundits claiming otherwise should put their money where their mouths are and petition the highest court in Scotland to define excactly what rights “sovereign” Scots have, if any.

      The reason they won’t is they are petrified that their “sovereignty” myth will be busted once and for all.

      The “plebs” of Scotland have no rights whatsoever except the right to go and vote if and when an election is called under Westminster rules.

      And that right too was given to them by Westminster, not by an ancient document which was not worth the paper it was written on as far as the “plebs”, little more than slaves at that time, were concerned.

      Pretendy “sovereign” Scot Brian Doonthetoon has evaded answering the questions:

      Did the “sovereign” people of Scotland vote for the Treaty of Union?

      Or was it forced upon them because they were not “sovereign”?

    473. schrodingers cat says:

      cirsium says:
      @schrodingers cat

      Liked your arguments at 3.19pm

      🙂 it just goes to prove that you cant please all of the people all of the time.

      Robert J Sutherland thought it was an attempt by me to re introduce the 1830’s tory corn laws ?? 🙁

    474. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Rock at 11.36

      Yes Rock. Thanks. I note that you provided no evidence in support of your statement. That is because there is no evidence

    475. HandandShrimp says:

      Watched QT for the first time in ages.

      Overall I detected a consensus on a number of issues between Jeanne, Kezia and Owen (and even Daniel FFS!). The audience were clearly the usual BBC attempt at “balance” but that said I would guess by the applause it was about 50% for the Scottish Government and 50% absolutely vehemently opposed. In the real world it isn’t as black and white as that but QT is self selecting in many ways so no real surprise there.

      Glad it wasn’t another non-stop Brexit show as most of the QTs from England seem to be these days.

      No idea who McElvoy is but found her contributions the least relevant and up to speed. She might have been better on a different QT.

    476. Rock says:

      Dave McEwan Hill,

      “I get very fed up with the fainthearts and pessimists. Sometimes I feel that our recognised enemies are not our biggest problem.”

      Quite unexpectedly, a one in a 1000 years golden opportunity arose with the SNP having 56 out of 59 MPs, 50% of the vote, a remain vote in Scotland, the EU’s eyes favourably) on Scotland, the unionist parties without leaders and completely lost.

      That was the moment to strike. Scotland was on the verge of independence.

      But Nicola spectacularly squandered this once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      The result: Nicola outsmarted by the collusion between Saints Theresa and Ruth on one hand, and Corbyn on the other, fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%, loss of half a million voters and 23 MPs.

      There is no guarantee that the SNP will get a majority in 2021. In my view, it is highly unlikely. The black arts department of the British establishment will make sure it doesn’t happen.

      Despite the pretendy “sovereignty” and boasting of the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here, Scotland is again as far away from independence as ever.

      Is there any wonder I am pessimistic?

      I hope the whole of the SNP is not stuck in the “independence supporting” The National bubble as you are.

    477. CameronB Brodie says:

      I do hope the EU makes the right decisions, in the end. It has it’s problems but it is very important. In addition to being a huge trading block, the EU plays a significant role in influencing economic policy and planning the spatial distribution of economic development in Europe. If done correctly, this helps to alleviate economic disadvantages associated with location, such as Scotland’s peripheral relationship to the continent’s economic heart. Loosing this coordination will be bad for the European environment and efforts aim at improving the equality of income distribution.

      Commission Statement: EU framework for democracy, rule of law and fundamental rights

      “The clearest way to show what the rule of law means to us in everyday life is to recall what has happened when there is no rule of law.” When President Eisenhower marked the very first ‘Law Day’ with these words, in 1958, World War Two had ended since barely a dozen years. The memories were raw, the images and the fear etched into minds.

      It has now been seventy years – we commemorated the liberation of the terror camps in this very hemicycle when we last met in January, President Schulz and I were in Terezin only two weeks ago. Seventy years, yet the alarming backdrop to this anniversary – not just the headlines but also the trends, the patterns that we see –, this backdrop has come as a harsh, sobering call for vigilance.

      This is why I welcome this timely debate. This House’s vigilance on fundamental rights is of utmost importance: we cannot let our societies imperceptibly slip back; we cannot allow illiberal logics to take hold. There is no such thing as an illiberal democracy.Our Union is built on a break from the past; on the principle that societies should be free and open, sheltered from arbitrariness and force. This great leap, that is what Europe stands for. All too often, we take all of this for granted.

      So I cannot repeat it often enough: Compromising on values is compromising on the EU, weakening it and bringing it to a standstill. There can be no Europe without full respect of our common values.

      This Commission is dedicated to advancing fundamental rights and the rule of law. I have been entrusted by President Juncker with a duty of special significance – and of huge significance to me –, that of steering and coordinating this work….” – First Vice-President Frans Timmermans to the European Parliament

      http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-15-4402_en.htm

    478. Rock says:

      Dave McEwan Hill,

      “Rock at 11.36

      Yes Rock. Thanks. I note that you provided no evidence in support of your statement. That is because there is no evidence”

      You and Ken500 are stuck in your bubbles as far as the Catalonia situation is concerned.

      You have to go outside the “independence supporting” The National to find “evidence”.

    479. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Rock at 12.02

      I await some evidence but I think I’ll just go to bed.

      But I’ll just repeat the point I made. At no point did the EU say that the Catalan referendum was illegal. It cannot make such judgements. It said that the Madrid government said it was illegal which is completely different.
      At no point did the EU say it would not recognise an independent Catalan.

    480. William Wallace says:

      Cheer up Rock iy 🙂 Everything is fine. Perfidious Albion is making a right erse o athin. You ken what they say aboot never interrupting yir enemy and ah that.

      Gi it a rest wi the prophet O doom naysayer philosophy. You’ll mak yirsel seek wi worry. 🙂

      It’s a pair o these yir wantin, thermagrip soles, £19.99 – Timpsons. 🙂

    481. Alex Clark says:

      Finally made it and caught up with all the posts today and I’m glad I did. Some good discussion today on the differences between EU/EFTA which were a joy to read.

      Both sides of the arguments have their points which are true and there was a very good post by stewartb@8:55pm that nails it.

      That is “who cares” because without Independence it’s all irrelevant.

      I won’t take sides for now though I do have a view, I’ll put that aside as for me I believe more that gaining our Independence first should be the focus of us all.

      Eyes on the main prize or risk the booby prize?

      That is NOTHING and no choice as your “out of the game”.

    482. CameronB Brodie says:

      The EU is a work-in-progress. It doesn’t have the instruments needed to bring Spain to heel.

      An EU mechanism on democracy, the rule of law and fundamental rights

      European Added Value Assessment
      In-Depth Analysis

      Abstract

      European Parliament legislative initiative reports drawn up on the basis of Article 225 of the Treaty on the Functioning on the European Union are automatically accompanied by a European Added Value Assessment(EAVA). Such assessments are aimed at evaluating the potential impacts, and identifying the advantages, of proposals made in legislative initiative reports.

      This EAVA accompanies a resolution based on a legislative initiative report prepared by Parliament’s Committee on Civil Liberties, Justice and Home Affairs (LIBE) (rapporteur: Sophie in’t Veld (ALDE, the Netherlands), presenting recommendations to the Commission on an EU mechanism on democracy, the rule of law and fundamental rights (P8_TA-PROV (2016) 0409). m The main conclusion of the EAVA is that there is a gap between the proclamation of the rights and values listed in Article2 TEU and actual compliance by EU institutions and Member States, resulting in significant economic, social and political costs. The root causes of this lack of compliance are to be found in certain weaknesses in the existing EU legal and policy framework on democracy, the rule of law and fundamental rights. These weaknesses could be overcome by the conclusion of an EU Pact for Democracy, the Rule of Law and Fundamental Rights (DRF) in the form of an interinstitutional agreement
      (IIA). This IIA should lay down arrangements for (i) the development of an annual European report on the state of democracy, the rule of law and fundamental rights in the Member States with country-specific recommendations assessing compliance with DRF, and (ii) a policy cycle for DRF, involving EU institutions and national parliaments, with country-specific recommendations aimed at monitoring and enforcing ember State compliance, including a DRF policy cycle within the institutions of the Union.

      This could be done at relatively low cost, particularly if the right synergies are found with international organisations, whilst at the same time having significant
      benefits, notably fostering mutual trust and recognition, attracting more investment, and providing higher welfare standards.

      http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/IDAN/2016/579328/EPRS_IDA(2016)579328_EN.pdf

    483. Still Positive says:

      50 years ago today I embraced Scottish Independence.

      I read, ironically in the Daily Record after Winnie Ewing’s win, that the SNP believed: ” Scotland is a country, therefore it should be independent.” I believed that then as a 17-year-old and I believe it now.

      In fact it is more important now than it was then. We have the disaster which will be Brexit.

    484. schrodingers cat says:

      pnr
      “who cares”

      well, the indyref2 question will be the same as indyref1 I imagine, but presently, the snp has commissioned a think tank to examine the issue of currency in an indy scotland, £scots is what they have proposed. this is because during the campaign, we will be asked this very question and “who cares… we will worry about that once we are indy” isnt really a good position to have.

      the discussion today was about what our position vis a vis with the EU should be for the same reasons

      but you are right, if we lose indyref2, it really wont matter.
      that is why such disscussions like today are so important.

      there are a lot of people who read these threads, including many in the SNP who will be ultimately responsable for deciding what the position on the eu will be for indyref2.

      I dont think that us thrashing out such issues btl does any harm. i think it helps to inform everyone (including me) of the issues we will face during indyref2,



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