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Wings Over Scotland


The unhappy 11%

Posted on September 18, 2016 by

The Sunday Times has a new Panelbase poll out today, and it borrows a question that was first asked by this website (via the same pollster) 14 months ago. These were the results this month:

idealeu

They broadly show little change from when we asked last year (for the five options the changes are +1, 0, -3, +8 and -5), suggesting that the main practical upshot of the EU referendum campaign was to halve the number of Don’t Knows, which was achieved by shifting almost all of them straight onto the Leave side with the Remain camp’s abysmal recreation of Better Together’s “Project Fear”.

Nevertheless, the chart is a fascinating and pertinent one. Because while there’s only one of the four non-DK groups in the list who definitely can’t get what they want, there’s another one whose decision will be a lot harder than Yes supporters would like.

The single favourite option of Scots – now by a clear 5% margin compared to the 1% of the last poll – is independence within the EU. That in itself is a pretty interesting fact. But the second most-popular option, and the most popular on the Unionist side, was blown out of the water by the Brexit vote.

The 28% of people – representing over a million Scottish voters – who want to stay in both the UK and the EU are in the very near future going to be faced with a choice of one or the other. It would need only a quarter of them to choose the EU for independence to be the majority option overall.

That sounds like great news. But the equation, of course, is much less simple than that. Because the chart also suggests that fully a quarter of independence supporters want out of Europe, and it’s those people – not traditional Unionists – who are the biggest fly in the Yes movement’s ointment.

It’s not hard to pick up flickerings of very considerable anger and resentment among Yes activists towards the Brexiters within their camp. Events have conspired to put independence eminently within reach far sooner than almost anyone expected, only for people who voted Yes in 2014 to tear it away again for reasons that most of those inclinded towards Remain consider stupid at best, and racist at worst.

Yet while understandable on an emotional level, such an attitude risks repeating the exact same mistakes made by the Remain campaign. Voters don’t take kindly to being treated as xenophobes and idiots and bombarded with self-righteous lectures. In the days leading up to the EU vote this site watched in horror as social media was swamped with pompous diatribes from Remainers proclaiming themselves owners of the moral high ground, an approach all but guaranteed to be counter-productive.

timesgapeu

Contrary to what the nation’s reliably-clueless political pundits assert in almost daily opinion columns, the big decision that faces Nicola Sturgeon isn’t the timing of the next indyref. Current polls show that voters oppose having one, but that won’t stop them voting in it whenever it happens, so it’s a fact of little to no importance.

What matters is the attitude that the future Yes movement takes to the very large part – almost 40% – of the Scottish electorate who at that referendum will face a choice between two options they don’t like.

The offer to the 28% of double-unionists pretty much takes care of itself. Capturing at least a quarter of them ought to be an eminently manageable task. But if the 11% of neither-unionists are alienated in the process it’ll all be for nothing.

This site’s view is that an independent Scotland would be better off in the EU, chiefly because it’s not like the UK’s unequal union where one partner steamrollers the other with weight of numbers. But dismissing Leavers as a bunch of backwards racist is no different to asserting that all Yes voters are motivated by hatred of the English.

The argument over the EU can be settled in an independent Scotland, with the added benefit (in the light of the UK’s exit) of a much clearer picture of what leaving the EU would really look like. It’s vital that pro-Remain independence campaigners have faith in the power of their arguments and don’t try to shut off that debate.

Two years from the heartbreaking defeat of 2014, and despite the collapse in oil revenue and the grudgingly-delivered tiny crumbs of extra devolution, independence is closer now than it has ever been. And as this site has consistently maintained since its first month of existence, it must be primarily championed on its own merits and not tied into specific policies, whether they be higher taxes, lower taxes, nuclear weapons, membership of the EU or anything else.

(A view echoed by Nicola Sturgeon in today’s Sunday Herald.)

If you believe in independence, then you believe in the ability and right of Scotland’s people to decide those matters for themselves. But first we must win that ability and that right. In the tumultuous years to come, we hope everyone can remember that.

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    1. 18 09 16 12:57

      The unhappy 11% | speymouth

    2. 19 09 16 02:38

      Scotland could join EFTA as a compromise between EU-sceptic and EU-phile independistas – Max Memos

    3. 09 12 16 17:28

      Believing in Independence | A Wilderness of Peace

    296 to “The unhappy 11%”

    1. Grouse Beater says:

      The ‘Unhappy 11%’ sounds as if Tarantino’s next movie.

      I agree about voting for independence on its own merit, but considering a good number of people had an irrational reaction to ‘independence’ as meaning isolation, it will need to be sold for what it actually delivers, self-determination and full civil rights, protected by a constitution.

    2. Alex Clark says:

      @Rev

      Not sure why you state a quarter of double unionists are required for a Yes victory (assuming all those currently yes vote yes despite reservations about the EU).

      If the in UK and EU vote went from 28% to 24% and those that switched went to Independent in the EU then that gives Yes a majority. That is we only need 4/28 to stick with EU over UK or 1 in 7.

      Either way these guys and gals can’t have their cake and eat it. They are going to have to make what is for them a tough decision.

      We need just 15% of them to chose EU and need the yessers that want out of the EU to stick with Independence first.

    3. Ken500 says:

      Why are those two arrogant, ignorant totally unpopular unrepresentative people Curran and Torrance lying on BBC Scotland. Getting an illegally fee paid from the pocket of Scottish taxpayers, who majority do not support them. What is Gary Smith thinking?

    4. handclapping says:

      We are on the Titanic at the moment when it hits the iceberg (Brexit) and the compartments are not yet breached. We have a life boat in Indy. Can we persuade enough to join us before the Titanic sinks?

      Didn’t the Titanic have a sister ship the Brittanic?

    5. Grizzle McPuss says:

      Point made succinctly

    6. Alex Clark says:

      That 28% who want both unions are key targets here for Indy2. There can now only be one union and they realise this. The benefits of remaining in the EU far outway the benefits of remaining part of the UK.

      The UK out of the EU are preparing to rip away your human rights and workers rights legislation. The UK will sign up to TTIP in the blink of an eye and your SNHS will be privatised by stealth as the Barnett formula is eroded and Scotlands block grant is steadily cut.

      The effects of a Brexit will not be felt for some time, though I have no doubt that pain is the only possible outcome.

      Damn this biased media of ours for failing in their duty to inform.

    7. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Not sure why you state a quarter of double unionists are required for a Yes victory (assuming all those currently yes vote yes despite reservations about the EU).”

      Because the two Yes options currently total 44 and we need 51. There are no Don’t Knows in a referendum.

    8. Fiona says:

      I made the point some time ago that there is probably a group who voted yes precisely because they want out of the EU: after all that was a big plank of the Better Together case: yes meant getting out and no meant staying in. It was mince but some folk will have believed it.

      Frankly, I think the focus on EU membership is misguided because I do not detect much passion either way in Scotland. I really don’t think it is a deal breaker for a lot of people. The delay in the emergence of all the dire consequences predicted by remain wont help either, whether they turn out right or wrong in the long run: because indyref needs to happen before UK leaves, if aim is to secure EU membership.

      As most here will know, I am one of the minority who wants an independent Scotland out of the EU. For me, independence comes first, and, as you say, we can then deal with all the other issues.

      But I have already experienced some who assume my wish to leave EU means I oppose independence, and who attribute that view without asking. Doesn’t help. I have also had discussion with some who assume because I want free movement it means I support EU. That is not true either.

      Can’t discuss real positions if you assume you know spectrum of opinion and place your opponent where you assume them to be. All more complex than that. We won’t win by attacking straw men.

    9. Petra says:

      I posted this on the last thread unaware that we had moved on! Too early to repost O/T?

      ……….

      Some fantastic articles in The National yesterday, from Alex etc, etc, etc. What do you all think of this one? Viable? If so it would be absolutely brilliant for us.

      ”Lawyer presses case for annual ground rent system to reduce taxes and answer the economic questions surrounding independence.”

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/lawyer-presses-case-for-annual-ground-rent-system-to-reduce-taxes-and-answer-the-economic-questions-surrounding-independence.22523
      ……….

      Thanks for the posts Nana. It’s clear that the Tories are in complete disarray (helpful for us) and God knows what kind of Brexit deal they’ll get if any! It’s becoming even clearer, all over the UK – not just in Scotland, that the biased BBC is in cahoots with certain Unionist politicians. Hope they keep up the ‘good work’, as that’ll be advantageous for us too. Your ‘drone papers’ link looks really interesting. Lots to get through so will read it later.

      https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/

      ……….

      @ Robert Graham says …. ”ha ha Petra now what are you doing up this time of night or morning now.”….

      Robert I’m never in bed before 2 / 3 in the morning (only need 4 hours sleep) and because of a committment sometimes up all night. Great time to catch up on paperwork, reading and visiting Wings. Down side is it’s kind of lonely on here at that time in the morning.

      ………..

      @ Breeks says at 9:52 am ….

      Well said Breeks. Great post. Time for us to make our escape.

      ……….

      Some videos to get you all going. If you need it!

      ‘SCOTLAND IS HER NAME2.’

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCo1RjxRFvs

      ‘SCOTLAND: Enough is Enough.’

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCtJ4kXUtb8

      ‘Scottish Independence is inevitable.’

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eyVkMtO8bM

    10. DerekM says:

      I wonder how many of that 11% understand that the EU question can only be asked in an independent Scotland,this is something we need to make clear to all yessers indy first then we can start making decisions as a people,while we are still stuck in the corrupt UK union we do not get a say on anything our country wants or does not want.

    11. Clootie says:

      Like many, many others I hold to that view that obtaining Independence comes first (We make all other choices thereafter).
      The shape of Scotland, it’s role in World politics, the organisations it joins are all for the people of Scotland and it’s future generations to decide.

      We will be FREE to choose our future for the benefit of our fellow Scots instead of accepting that which is in the best interest of a ruling class down South.

    12. Graeme says:

      handclapping says:
      18 September, 2016 at 12:19 pm

      Didn’t the Titanic have a sister ship the Brittanic?

      Yes but she never carried a fare paying passenger, upon completion she was commissioned as a hospital ship and later sunk in the Aegean sea by a German mine at least that’s my understanding, I didn’t double check my facts before posting

    13. Mike says:

      I cant understand why this country is walking such a fine line unless its the age demographic which is holding us back.
      Still far too many people seem to reminisce back to the good ol days of past glories and the tight bond of shared danger.
      People unable or unwilling to look at the present and future.
      Its like the Soviet Union. Even after the break up it was the older generations who wanted to bring it back.
      It may not be possible to gain Independence until the World War generations can no longer vote.
      I’m sorry if that sounds harsh but it may very well be a harsh truth.
      Its the generation brought up under almost perpetual right wing Tory dogma who want Independence the most.
      Perhaps too many old timers in Scotland still believe Labour to be an answer to the Tories and refuse to see or understand how much their ideology has changed.
      Its so damn frustrating and not a little aggravating.

    14. G H Graham says:

      Sovereign independence for Scotland or indeed any country must NEVER be conditional.

      One either believes in the fundamental principle that people living in a country have a right to decide who governs them & how or not. It should never be based on the premise that some other event needs to happen prior to or post independence.

      Look at it this way; no one decides to go to university because they already have a well paid career prepared for them. They go, knowing that finding work after they have qualified will always involve uncertainty & risk.

    15. Kenny says:

      The whole indy movement is about getting the governments we want.

      The same applies to other aspects of Scottish life: Nato membership, monarchy, currency. We can decide all that ONCE we get independence.

      Scotland would certainly benefit from being inside the EU, economically. A team of Scottish negotiators could do a much better job on behalf of Scotland than all Westminster governments from the times of Thatcher and even before.

      So it is maybe wrong to ask people about “Scotland in the EU”. We should aim for an independent Scotland in the EU with a vote on membership exactly five years into our membership.

      An independent Scotland must be democratic and we should be following the likes of Switzerland. We are Europeans, sure. But we are not necessarily neoliberals and if the European project is run by neoliberals, we can always find an alternative (joining with our close neighbours and good friends, Norway and Iceland, for example, in the EFTA).

    16. Alex Clark says:

      @Rev

      If you take 4% away from the 51% it becomes 47% and Yes becomes 48%. No?

    17. Ken500 says:

      Another useless Poll. Pollster manipulating the Poll to influence the outcome. Illegal gerrymandering.

      Independence in or out of the EU, in or out of the Euro. Is preferable to membership of the UK corrupt Union. People who prefer Scotland Independent but out of the EU will still vote for Independence. Independence for the majority is the prime motivation. Westminster Unionists and their parasitical policies take £Billions out of the Scottish economy. £300Billion + secretly and illegally. The EU (10% influence). More benefit comes back than is put in.

      More people who voted to stay in the EU through UK membership, will vote for Independence. 70% want Scotland to have fiscal control over Scottish affairs. Fiscal autonomy to raise and spend taxes. To make Scotland a more equal, happy just society.

      If the rest of the UK has listened to Scotland. The UK would not be in £Trillions of debt, would be a more equal and just society and multimillionaires would not be evading taxes. The resources would not have been wasted but utilised. Westminster Unionist greedy, lying parasites.

    18. ROBBO says:

      Totally agree. Against a backdrop of what we know Scotland’s financial contraints are going to be if we stay in the UK we need to get across the positives (and there are many) of staying in the EU. Interestingly there was a so called ‘Remain’ expert on BBC Breakfast setting out the opportunities that await the UK in exploitinng the 85% of world trade that is outwith the EU and that GB is well placed to take advantage of dealing with our ‘English speaking Commonwealth cousins’. What balderdash… I am old enough to remember the days prior to joining the EU when GB was almost bankrupt, exports were falling with negative Balance of Payments a pound devalued and that was at a time when we had the Commonwealth at our feet. If we want to see a prosperous Scotland we need to be in Europe full stop.

    19. Ken500 says:

      Still taking ignorant people over to YES. Approach it with kindness.

      Inform one person each. It is done.

    20. Mike says:

      If the Scottish Government were able to credibly promise a pension in an Indy Scotland on par with the best in Europe I absolutely guarantee that would swing the vote overwhelmingly.
      Its the elderly generations who are holding us back it is they we must get on board or wait a real generation or two to get our Indy.

    21. Scott says:

      Agree with Ken500 says about these two but then again it’s the BBC.
      Sorry for going on about this but it does get me mad that these two MSPs have not had to stand down.

      LibDem Alex Cole-Hamilton is being investigated by the police over alleged “financial irregularities” in his election expenses

      MSP Alexander Burnett reported to police over spending.

      We all know how the yoons went on about Michelle Thompson and the msm being complicit with them,its time the SNP took the gloves and get stuck into the Tank and Willie and ask what they are doing about these two.

    22. mike gunn says:

      Great article and bang on.
      The point – “it must be primarily championed on its own merits and not tied into specific policies” is the absolute clincher in what lies ahead for me.
      The YES movement must get across the point that it is all about the fundamental issue of having the right to make decisions for ourselves and NOT about policies, the SNP, ScotLab or the Tories.

    23. Dr Jim says:

      Nine countries in the EU are smaller than Scotland, I wont do the list but if you look them up on Wiki you would be interested in how rubbish every one of them is described as, and for the ones not described in that way they seem to be “special cases”
      I wonder who wrote that?

      Those folk who want everything and want it now (in EU in UK) or Nicola Sturgeon’s to blame for the entire worlds problems are out of their tree and will have to make some kind of decision on their actual ability to make decisions

      Unfortunately the Unionist side of the forthcoming argument will contain every and all references to all events being engineered by the First Minister to get “Her” way

      This morning on Murnaghan, Camilla Tominey (Tory journalist) admitted the SNPs Angus Robertson was indeed the effective opposition at Westminster but then qualified that by saying he wasn’t trusted in England because he represents the SNP and their interests in Scotland, and she said that without a hint or blink of irony that in some way he “Shouldn’t” represent Scotland, and that just shows, or should, the rest of the so called United Kingdom don’t actually want us saying anything about our part of the UK effectively declaring us Independent but without the legitimacy of being so

      We want what you’ve got but we don’t want you, go away and shut up
      I don’t know about everybody else but I don’t care for their tone

    24. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      For the 11% – they will have to think very carefully befire Indyref2 as to the position of Scotland relative to the rest if the World and to England in particular.

      The rest of the UK will do us no favours and will try to block assess to ports and will impose tariffs in goods leaving and entering an Indy Scotland.

      It is no coincidence that we have no major ports in Scotland to service modern container ships so we are in a difficult position on this.

      You can see this already as Scot Tories advocating a Hard border with UK while UK Tories are trying to get access to the EU markets.

      I see that as a very risky option whereas Scotland in the EU will have the support of the major EU countries and will be part of a trade deal which will be very beneficial to us.

      The “Best of Both Worlds” !

    25. Bob Mack says:

      Too many distractions to the main objective I think. Independence takes priority over everything in my view.
      Regardless of people wanting to leave the EU, there has to come the realty that we would in any event have to negotiate a trade deal with them in the future, which may not be on our terms. It is a reality that we need to trade with them whether you like that fact or not. Trade deals are the lifeblood of a country like ours. That is just a fact. No trade, then no schools ,army, police ,education or anything else we sometimes take for granted.
      As an independent country we can make these decisions for ourselves.

      I am often asked the usual question of why I want to leave the UK but remain in the EU. My reply is that the UK has fed off our country for centuries often at the expense of Scottish resources and lives,whilst the EU for all its imperfections tries to nurture
      our growth and wellbeing and culture.
      These are significant differences.

    26. Ken500 says:

      The fall in the Oil revenues caused by Osbourne, the payments on the rest of the UK debts decided by Westminster/Unionists. The dumping of Trident on Scotland and flying of nuclear waste around the world decided by Westminster/ Unionists. The raising of more taxes in Scotland compared to the rest of the UK decided by Westminster. The lying, illegal, secret loss of Scotland resources and revenues decided by Westminster/Unionists. The illegal wars decided by Westminster/Unionists. The migration crisis caused by Westminster/Unionists. Against the majority in Scotland wishes and the public interest.

    27. Nana says:

      Having a friend who voted Yes in 2014 I was surprised she voted leave. Chatting with her I found mostly all the reasons she gave came from media misrepresentation [no surprise]

      I did feel angry and ready to speak my mind but I calmed down and left her with links to various websites and a few thoughts of my own. She will vote yes next time and I found being reasonable and calmly passing on the truth rather the media bullshit has a positive effect.

      You catch more flies with honey so we had best hone up on the sweet talk.

    28. galamcennalath says:

      “What’s your ideal scenario?” was the question. Given the reality that two options are improbable, it would have more useful to know what people’s second option would have been!

      Since Indy is my main aim, I would have put ‘iScotland outside EU’ as my second choice.

      If we knew the second choice of the double union people, and the Indy-no-EU people, we would have much clearer picture of what views are for a binary choice.

    29. shug says:

      The no2 camp will bang on about the pending collapse of Europe
      They could be correct and next year in Germany and France there will be important elections. These are out if our control so the Scottish locals must be our target.
      Clean sweep there followed by judging what happens in Europe

    30. iain taylor says:

      Wise words in last para.

      It has always been my fundamental. We get independence and I trust Scots 100% to govern Scotland better than London.

      Remember, they’ve set the bar very low.

    31. Helena Brown says:

      The Titanic, the Oceanic and th Britannic all sank. I agree with Stu, that independence must be seen as the correct thing on it’s own merit rather than all the window dressing. If we cannot convince Scots of the rightness we deserve to be condemned to what will be a medieval shit hole, pardon the language.

    32. alexicon says:

      Just shows that the SNP can’t just go along with Independence in Europe line.
      The SNP has to cater for the 11% and the soft No’s to win an Indy referendum.
      I said during the 2014 referendum that the SNP should promise a vote to the people of Scotland on what type of membership they want out of the eu. Maybe a 3 or 4 option vote?
      Other scenarios may come into play.
      The EU may decide to change many of the grievance points that led to Brexit in the first place, which could entice a lot of soft no voters over.
      The SNP could advocate a similar type of EU membership in line with Norway, or Switzerland.
      Either way the SNP gas to cater for all, even the soft No’s as I’m sure even many of us on here wouldn’t be comfortable with a Carte Blanche approach to Scotland joining the EU.

    33. Ian says:

      One of the questions I don’t see being asked is whether people think the UK has been well managed over the past 50 years. Lets have some debate about this and see what the ‘yes it has been’ side have to say for themselves. The ‘no it hasn’t been’ side has countless proof of mismanagement (except for the very rich) or complete incompetence. It’d be good to see a flip side of the McCrone report, showing just what did happen to Scotland when it remained in the UK.

      Isn’t that the biggest issue of all, that remaining in the UK means remaining tied to the UK basket case mismanagement/incompetence. It always surprises me that it was the older folk that voted No. They lived through decades of relentless UK decline. They saw it first hand.

      Better together ? Based on what hard evidence.

    34. Papadox says:

      The unionists are pushing the no second referendum for all they are worth broadcast day and daily by the English Broadcasting Corportation in the tribal territories (Scotland) to the natives. Ruth the mooth, Kez, and wee wullie frae kelly, Mundell and the EBC news tag team bleet on incessantly about Nicola must stop talking about indy2 and get on with running the country. Which she is and doesn’t mention indy2 as often as she is entitled to.
      For the EBC’s grand final they wheel out a very sober Magrit Curran and David (the beard) Torrance and mumbling Mundell.
      All part of a Westminster plot to sicken the natives of the word referendum and thus give them a pretendy reason to DENY a second referendum. IMHO they are trying to stir up trouble and blame it on the natives. Just so the yoons are trying to heal or prevent any divisions.

    35. galamcennalath says:

      Indy outside the EU is a prefect valid position (although not my own).

      I find it difficult to imagine Indy supporters choosing UK over Indy, to avoid the EU.

      The scale of interference in Scotland of either London or Brussels is completely different.

      The EU doesn’t force upon us Trident, illegal wars, austerity, benefits sanctions, poor state pensions, etc etc.

      The hand of the EU is very soft touch compared to WM.

      When the 11% have to choose, surely almost all would want to remove London’s massive interference as the priority.

    36. yesindyref2 says:

      @Rev
      Very timely article, and shows where the hearts and minds issue lies.

      It’s also an incredibly calm mature article, in its description of the different beliefs of those who nevertheless, support Independence, and may be faced with the choice – Indy Scotland, or leave the EU.

    37. Stoker says:

      mike gunn wrote:

      “The YES movement must get across the point that it is all about the fundamental issue of having the right to make decisions for ourselves and NOT about policies, the SNP, ScotLab or the Tories.”

      Yes, mike, and a mass poster campaign using an improved version of this WOS example would hammer that message home. Imagine similar posters to this going up in windows and billboards all over Scotland! http://archive.is/SjRIk

      BTW, no need to date any poster by adding a “vote Yes” date and
      it might be worth waiting on any boundary changes that are due to take place before getting posters printed. Just a few thoughts!

    38. HandandShrimp says:

      Chatting to one our local Tories at their petition yesterday he did concede that Brexit had muddied the waters making the straight binary Unionist vs Nationalist question a lot more difficult to negotiate.

      We need to play this canny and hopefully the 11%, or a fair chunk of them, will come on board when the full impact of the Brexit negotiations become clearer.

      I think Stu’s right though, we should lean from the mistakes of Remain and not rail at segments of our own natural support. There is likely to be two years before an Indyref2 (unless circumstances propel a rapid acceleration but if that happens it will likely be because the Tories, Brexit and the EU have made independence so compelling as to be an immediate choice)

    39. yesindyref2 says:

      The article is giving me a bit of a spur on for a wee project I’ve got in mind, to clear out my old wordpress, and put the odd totally factual (non-argumentative) article on it.

      There’s a lot of people don’t really know how the EU works in its 3 bodies, all they have is what the anti-EU press tells them. There are changes happened as well the last 5 or 6 years just coming into play, and I already have one article fleshed out in my mind, I’ll do it as a background thing the next week or so.

    40. Paisley bud says:

      One option not there is, Independant Scotland in the UK. How would work, all the advantage of trading with our pally neighbour but control over everything, just like UK currently has with EU.

    41. Elaine says:

      “But dismissing Leavers as a bunch of backwards racist is no different to asserting that all Yes voters are motivated by hatred of the English.”

      True. But also, denigrating the probable majority of Scots who aren’t persuaded by the ‘whack taxes up and nationalism everything’ vision of the Indy brand, by those who support it, as selfish and greedy and nasty is just as off and is a similar error of judgement.

      Last time the use of social media (good) portrayed Yes as a bunch of left groups. It hamstrung its message because independence dominated by a niche philosophy (messages seemed quite left) can’t be for everyone. And it alienated the ordinary voter because before they had a chance to be converted, often they were the ‘them’, the enemy of the cause. It’s silly and very counter productive, like you describe in your piece. It did the unionists job for them by pitting Scot against Scot.

      Next time I think Yes needs to be inclusive. Business for Scotland, for example, was about the most prominent ‘non left’ voice but seemed swamped. There was not a balance of speakers at any of the rallies (I attended them). And on TV Yes looked like a working class revolt, the tartan army with a bee in its bonnet. I know the media wants to portray us so, but that is why we must determine our own reputation.

      Because it’s not ourselves we’re talking to, it’s the (ordinary) small ‘c’ conservative voter who never posts online, or votes in polls. Those with ‘a good job’ who wish to support others in society, because they believe that is right, but are pigeon holed as ‘bad’ already because they earn more or fit a stereotype. If we poke them then they will eventually think “sod you”. Or roll their eyes and ignore. There’s a heck of a lot of folk in Scotland who should not be treated like the enemy.

      Indy is seen as escape for the suffering poor. (I hope it helps, I think it will.) That attracts those voters. To attract another big group of voters that we need, Indy also has to be an aspiration, a choice like moving house or taking a new job. That’s a positive risk, one these voters will take. Indy Scotland has to appear better than ‘cool Britannia’, which is the current standard, in Scotland, for the aspirational. And many folk like to think that’s them even if it’s not.

      Remember, it’s not that vision against a ‘struggle for’ one. It’s both, and maybe more. There’s not just one Scottish audience. The country is not a big housing scheme like we’re shown (let’s not back that lie up). There are many different sorts of Scottish people; they’re never reflected back to us. (The Susan Rae Radio 4 Scot is broadcast as British.) We need to recognise them too. They need to see there is a choice for all voters after Indy (which there is).

      We need an effort to include all of the main political spectrum on the Indy platform. That means reaching out to the currently smaller voices of the other Indy support and letting them gather their audience to Indy as the left has successfully done. Not saying, “it’s up to them”, because it communicates that hostility. And we need them. They are your No voters who don’t think they can vote Yes. Lets reach them.

    42. heedtracker says:

      Voters don’t take kindly to being treated as xenophobes and idiots and bombarded with self-righteous lectures.

      It is tricky. Leave campaigning’s really been going on since the start of EU membership. EU had a very bad teamGB tory press for decades and that’s putting it mildly. So its hardly surprising the EU is loathed by enough proud Brit buts who wanted to leave. BBC’s new BBC advert’s a union jack explosion, ending with “BBC, bring Britain together.” But that lot give Farage and UKIPsters massive coverage, presumably feeding into their whole tory rule Britannia mentality. All of this is clearly England’s mindset not Scotland’s.

      Two differing countries, one threatened the other with being kicked out of the EU for good 2014, if it didn’t remain under its control. Our imperial masters certainly think their UK is far better ruling the waves without Johnny Foreigner telling them what to do. We are living in a new age of red and blue tory British nationalism and tomorrow belongs to them, by 52%.

    43. Robert Peffers says:

      A very accurate assessment of the situation and it mirrors my own views. There are, though, several different ways to skin the proverbial cat.

      What we must convince the 11% is that the Establishment’s long preached propaganda of, “EU BAAD”, is indeed no more than Westminster lies and propaganda and they, (the 11% have been the victims of the Establishment who for, many years on the UK media), gave the impression that EU Commissioners were of far greater importance in the EU than they actually were.

      First of all the media consistently misreported what these EU Commission Presidents actually said & wrote but the media also gave the impression that whatever the Commission, and Commissioners, said was the EU parliament’s views.

      Nothing could be further from the truth. The clue is in the titles concerned. The EC is NOT the European Union.

      Like all governments The European Union, (EU), is made up of a parliament, (often with two houses), and a Civil Service. The parliament proposes, debates and makes the decisions while the Civil Service administers the Parliament’s business and advises the parliament.

      So it is with the EU and the title EC, (European Commission), tells us that these, “Commissioners”, are, “Commissioned”, that is paid for, Civil Servants of the EU, (European Union), which includes the European Parliament.

      In 2004, the proposed European Constitution, (and now also the Treaty of Lisbon), included a provision that the choice of President had to take into account the result of Parliamentary elections and the candidate supported by the victorious European party in particular.

      However, the provision was not in force for the nominations in 2004. The centre-right, “European People’s Party (EPP), won the elections and they pressed for a candidate from within their own ranks and José Manuel Barroso was chosen by the European Council.

      The EPP then pushed Barroso for a second term in the 2009 European election campaign. Again the EPP again won the elections and again nominated Barroso who then put forward his manifesto for his second term and, on 16 September 2009, Barroso was re-elected by the European Parliament for another five year term. He was only the second Commission president to serve two terms, the other being Jacques Delors.

      Much of the lies and distortions of the Westminster Establishment stemmed from the media reports that misquoted José Manuel Barroso but Barroso himself was devious and claimed many things as if he had the powers to implement them. This power he did not have for Commissioners, even the Commission President, have no such powers. All decisions rest with the EU NOT with the EC but to believe the UK Media, and the Westminster Establishment, you would not think so.

    44. DerekM says:

      @ Ian

      Yea Ian but most of them got a bribe from Thatcher buy your council house £12000 sell it 10 years later for £100k plus, what they didnt figure out was they just sold out their kids and grandweans future truly the selfish generation which i ashamed to be part off.

      You should get all your kids to go see their grandparents and tell them to vote for indy for the kids futures and to stop selling them out.

    45. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Indeed.

    46. Macart says:

      THAT is THE most powerful reason in a nutshell.

      We fight for the RIGHT to decide for ourselves, the right to choose. THAT is what independence is and that is why we are all here.

      We can argue amongst ourselves and cut our nose off to spite our face, or we can win the fight before us and use that platform and future Scottish governments to decide our future in the world.

      Right now we have an opportunity opening before us and a chance to right a terrible wrong done to Scotland’s electorate. So here is our first choice.

      Use it, or lose it?

      What KIND of country do you want to live in?

    47. Andrew Coulson says:

      Maybe the key discipline is to stop thinking ‘What argument will persuade No voters to switch to Yes?’, and instead ask ‘What is the deep reason that I vote Yes?’
      The point being, that if a No voter tells you, _incorrectly_ that s/he’s doing so because of the fall in the price of oil, none of your arguments about the price of oil, will change his/her mind on independence. Whereas, your real reasons for voting Yes, if you express them, _may_ strike a spark!

    48. Richardinho says:

      I see the 11% who want independence outside the EU as somewhat similar to those who want independence and keep the monarchy, or those who want independence but want abortion banned. These are separate issues which will be resolved after independence and according to the will of the Scottish people. That’s why we want independence after all.

    49. Famous15 says:

      Independence is the normal condition for any country.

      To have a not very competent neighbour run your affairs is unwise.

      To have people in your own country support this to the point of ectasy as you see daily on Twitter is strange.

      I like moderate language as it is much more effective than cursing and blinding.

    50. Luigi says:

      I think a number of YES voters may have voted OUT in the euro ref just to force the issue. That said, there are others who really don’t want to remain in the EU.

      The trick is not to make IndyRef 2 a predmoniantly EU issue. Difficult, yes, but there are many other important issues that should also be flagged (broken vow, EVEL, Trident, frigates, endless Tory rule etc).

      The YES 2 campaign should be based on a number of big issues. That is what people will weigh up as they decide which way to vote. To focus too heavily on the BREXIT result would be a mistake IMO. Anyone who hates BREXIT already knows about it – no need to spell it out for them and risk annoying others potential YES voters.

    51. Fiona says:

      @ Ricardinho

      Thanks for telling me what I think/what kind of person you think I am. Your post makes no sense and your perception is wrong. Not helping

    52. Luigi says:

      The trick will be to resist focussing the YES 2 campaign too heavily on the BREXIT result. No need to remind people, BREXIT haters are well aware of the coming train crash already. Why risk alienating potential YES voters (the 11%) when there are so many other important issues (Trident, frigates, the Vow, endless Tory rule etc).

    53. Fiona says:

      @ Ricardinho. Thanks for letting me know what kind of person you think I am. Appreciate it. Shame you are just wrong, though

    54. Ellie Mack says:

      A year ago I might have been part of the 11% although I have since moved to a slightly more Pro-EU position and I did in the end vote remain. The arguments which changed things for me were when I started to hear more uniquely Scottish perspectives on the EU and the future of our relationship with them which surprisingly I found lacking before the referendum campaign. I’m still not convinced, the EU has a great deal of structural flaws which they don’t seem willing to address, but I am more hopeful now that Scotland would have a more beneficial relationship with the EU.

      Having said that my position has always been an independent Scotland first, even when my preference for the EU position was Scotland outside the EU if the only choice had been Scotland in the EU or Scotland as part of the UK my choice would always have been Scotland in the EU.

    55. Thomas Valentine says:

      I certainly do not lump independence supports who want out of the EU in with the typical Brexit caricature. The couple I have spoken with were much more keen on the Norwegian ideal. Talking more about “offshore” position. It all seemed a bit confused but not nasty and xenophobic. Not from them at least but that’s just two people.

      What they did say which I think of note was they saw domination by England’s UK as more of a burden than anything by the EU. They might not entirely like the EU but could thole it for the chance of independence and relief from the weight of UK rule.

    56. A2 says:

      Unfortunately, I rather doubt that any more than 10% of the in/in group would move to yes if forced to choose. These are mostly people in favour of the status quo and likely to remain so even if the status quo itself changes.

      Of course you can’t be sure of that until we have actually left the EU but being basing decisions on optimism rather than actual information isn’t going to help.

      Then again you could ask that 28% a second question – what they would do faced with the choice they will actually be faced with.

    57. Robert Graham says:

      The EU has been and possibly still are, despite pronouncements by the French Government that the TTIP negotiations are dead in the water, is it credible that discussions that have been going on for years in Total Secrecy with a unparalleled level of security and secrecy highlighted by a Irish MEP Luke Flanagan who’s efforts to access the reading room to view the progress of negotiations are shown on u/tube have a look at Luke (Ming) Flanagans clips it might change your view on the EU .
      I still agree Independence first then our relationship with the EU next, they can’t negotiate with anyone other than a member state anyway so it’s Academic until the first goal is achieved (ie) Independence , but a proper honest appraisal of membership has to be carried out not just a acceptance of a benevolent organisation.

    58. cearc says:

      Alyn Smith produced his excellent Wee Bleu Book but how many people actually saw it?

      It would be good to see the SNP, as a party not the government, do a large print run in an updated edition and distribute it. It would also be good to have some larger versions for distribution to libraries, day centres etc.

    59. Joemcg says:

      Off topic but if you dropped a bomb on that Davis Cup venue in Glasgow right now independence is guaranteed!

    60. Alex Clark says:

      @Joemcg

      What the fuck are you on about now?

    61. HandandShrimp says:

      Joemcg

      ??

      Nicola and Peter are there.

    62. Joemcg says:

      Take it you are backing the Brits Alex? Knock yourself out.

    63. Joemcg says:

      Oops taxi for Nicola and Peter!

    64. Alex Clark says:

      @Joemcg

      Reckon I’d rather knock you out you arsehole. You want to bomb Glasgow? Shows you for what you are. A fruitcake.

    65. Joemcg says:

      Jesus lighten up Alex you sad cunt.

    66. Alex Clark says:

      LOL ta.

    67. ben madigan says:

      At present Scotland is bound within 2 unions. I think scotland should aim for independence from the UK before the brexit negotiations end.

      In this way Scotland can Remain within the EU as an independent nation state like all the other members.

      I agree the EU is not perfect but taking its place among the nations of the EU will make an enormous difference to Scotland – and time will be needed for the scots to assess its impact. They will also need time to bed down their new parliament and constitution.

      RE- the Unionists having a choice to make – here we go – https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2016/07/16/post-brexit-unionists-you-have-a-choice-to-make-eu-or-uk/

    68. Clydebuilt says:

      Hoss MacKintosh @12.44. Greenock is a container port…. And down river, Hunterstone has the capability of being developed as a container port….. With rail access already there……. If an East coast container terminal is required …..well Greenock will have to suffice till one is developed….

    69. Stoker says:

      Luigi wrote:

      “a number of YES voters may have voted OUT in the euro ref just to force the issue.”

      Correct!
      _____

      Here’s a little bit about my preference:

      (a)I want nothing more than Scottish independence from London.
      (b)I’ve voted nothing but SNP at every level all my life.
      (c)I would prefer we were a part of a Nordic alliance.
      (d)I would gladly settle for being independent within the EU.
      (e)I voted leave in the Euro ref because it’s what i’d prefer AND to help engineer the situation we have now.
      (f)I’ve also masqueraded as a staunch little Englander to help push the Brexit cause and to engineer our current situation.
      (g)I’m as hardcore ‘Yes’ as you’ll find anywhere and that means, for me as one of the 11-percenters, only one thing matters in this whole affair – point (a) above.

      Scottish independence, first, last and always, by hook or by crook! There will be many many more out there just like me! 😉

    70. Ian Mackay says:

      The fundamental message must be that it is Scotland’s choice. The Scottish people remain sovereign and Westminster cannot ignore this.

      The 28% who want Scotland to remain in the UK and the EU will need to make a choice; as they can’t have both. Westminster has refused to entertain a Scotland in the UK and in the EU.

      So the referendum votes in 2014 and 2016 are incompatible in terms of what Scotland wants.

      (In any case the broken promises that secured a No vote in 2014 can be seen as reason enough to have another independence referendum).

      In order to resolve Scotland’s choice another indyref must then be tabled.

      As we all know, getting rid of Westminster rule is exceeding tricky. 300+ years of history and the weight of Unionist media bias is against it.

      And it is shown by June’s Leave vote, getting out of the EU club is very easy indeed (even if Westminster make it look hard). The EU have the Article 50 rule by which a member state notifies their intention to leave.

      I would expect that the 11% pro-Yes and pro-Leave voters will still largely vote Yes to ending Westminster rule over us. That is the hardest thing to do and an indyref giving the Scottish Govt. licence to remain in the EU is our best chance of ending Westminster rule over Scotland.

      An independent Scotland will make a lot of different decisions in the EU than a recalcitrant UK. For one thing, we actually care about our farming and fishing industries enough to fight for their interests – unlike the UK, on past record.

      We will be better placed to make a decision on the EU once we are an independent member state. If it then doesn’t work out for us then we just invoke Article 50 as an independent member state. It remains Scotland’s choice.

      Making it Scotland’s choice should be enough to tempt that fraction of the 28% that Yes needs to secure independence.

      In 2014, Yes was 400 000 votes short. Many of the 300 000 EU nationals bought Better Together’s bullshit about a No vote securing EU membership. (Some probably abstained from the vote). They must be almost all Yes voters now.

      The margin has closed – and will doubtless close further in time, if the demographics of a elderly No voting population are correct.

      It’s all to play for.

      And for No voters, that makes it particularly galling – given that the circumstances of indyref 2 are entirely the fault of the Unionist politicians.

      Who knows what other mismanaged Westminster f**k ups will skew the Yes vote upwards?

      Scotland’s choice must be better than Westminster’s blinding incompetence.

    71. heedtracker says:

      I’m still not convinced, the EU has a great deal of structural flaws which they don’t seem willing to address, but I am more hopeful now that Scotland would have a more beneficial relationship with the EU.

      What are these flaws in the EU though? Our friends in the media keep bashing away about how terrible it all is, straight bananas, banning kids blowing up balloons etc but it would nice to see a list of EU bad stuff.

      Bomber Blair and Crash Gordo blocked pretty massive EU directives like the working hours restriction but they also did sneaky tory stuff like blocking the 2 year guarantee for all new electronic goods, to 1 year in their UK.

      All the usual yew kay tory bullshit right enough. From a regular consumer of tory BBC led media view point, the EU couldnt tell the UK what to do at all. So why the Leave win? immigration. This is from an England that has millions immigrating to places like the EU, Australia and Scotland. We’ve probably all sat in bars in Spanish holiday resorts and listened to UK ex-pats/immigrants explain how shite the UK is, because of bloody foreigners

    72. defo says:

      Excellent post Elaine.

      A plurality of political positions, to reflect our society is what we will need post indy anyhoo. Let ‘them’ know it.Now.
      Without it, we will end up out-lefting each other, towards irrelevance in a globalised world.
      Aspiration isn’t a dirty word.
      Unfettered neo-liberalism, on the other hand..

    73. heedtracker says:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07v2mf5

      This is fun to listen to, if only to spot the tory Brexiteer lawyers going nuts on EU stuff like the EU arrest warrant. Blurb says the guests are all leading experts but the one that says it was the EU arrest warrant, giving any EU member government the right to issue an arrest warrant and drag you from your English bed of an evening, was the the thing that made everyone vote Leave. Then the next lawyer says, but UK government has used it to arrest, detain and bring terrorist suspects to the UK, from the EU.

    74. Conan the Librarian™ says:

      @Clydebuilt

      Err… Grangemouth is the largest container port in Scotland.

    75. maureen says:

      I can only speak for myself but prior to the indy ref 2014, I wasn’t even on the electerol roll. Had no interest in politics but then I received a card saying if I wanted to vote I would need to register. It was only then that I realised that I did have an interest, in my own country that is.
      At the time, I was on an online slimmers club and this american asked me what was my opinion on independence for scotland and my reply at the time and it hasn’t changed was I believe that we should be our own boss, have the power to make our own decisions.
      It’s never really been about the policies for me, I just feel why shouldn’t we be independent, it’s the most natural thing in the world to me. To not being interested to then finding this site, it has awakened a need for me. So for the not interested in politics or the welfare of their country, there is hope that the spark can be found within to want better than we have.

    76. Meindevon says:

      Now that the UK has voted to leave the EU, can the EU now not just come out and say either yes or no as to Scotland being able to stay in the EU as an independent country? It would clear up a lot of uncertainties in a lot of undecided minds, I would have thought.

      Waiting for the final dots and crosses, so to speak, could well be too late.

    77. Andy.D says:

      I am one of the 11% and it breaks my heart to say that I will not vote for Indy if it is attached to EU membership. I would need a lot of sweet talk and lots of TRUE information on the good and bad of the EU, personally I believe it is unlikely it will change(EU) unless another country leaves it.

    78. call me dave says:

      Iain Macwhirter:

      Today’s Scotland is a confident, can-do nation, ready to seek self-government when the time is right

      https://archive.is/elQcB

      Ruth Davidson:

      My vision of Scotland’s future in the union

      https://archive.is/s97ZS

      Police investigate LibDem MSP over election expenses

      https://archive.is/XLS8z

      —————————————————-

      I agree with Nicola Independence trumps all.

    79. Alex Clark says:

      @maureen

      Thanks very much for your post. Often here we can get lost as to how others are thinking. It’s true we are in a bubble on WoS but every now and then a post like yours comes along and shows that we are in fact reaching out.

      You are absolutely right in my opinion that Independence has nothing to do with the EU but simply that we in Scotland should make our own decisions.

      While we are ruled over by Westminster it matters not that 62% of Scots voted to Remain. The votes of those living in England have overruled that of Scotland.

      This is wrong and will forever be wrong, we can never correct it though until we are Independent. Talk to your friends and hopefully they to will eventually see that democracy can only be obtained by Scotland being Independent.

      Until that day we will always be outnumbered by Tories in England.

    80. Famous15 says:

      It is true that independence is the normal state for any country.

      Given the human,material and natural resources that Scotland has it is somewhat disrespectful to suggest independence would bring uniquely to Scotland any problems.

      If a Unionist wishes to give other reasons for opposing independence I would be respectful just as I am in other areas of life but would remain agnostic.

      Scotland is unique in many ways but why should we believe those who espy the angel of doom on both our shoulders. I decline to discuss Calvanism because it would raise feelings of guilt!

    81. maureen says:

      thanks Alex, my family are of the same opinion and I am the type of person to talk to strangers at bus stops! So yeah, lets hope enough people are waking up to the idea of running our own country. With all the links and articles to be found on here, it’s become clear that over many years Scotland has being prevented from flourishing to our detriment. Makes me angry to think where we could have been had we been treated as an equal rather than as a resource.

    82. Kevin Evans says:

      My 2 cents –

      The no vote that might move to yes will move purely on financial issues. We have solid no’s and solid yes supporters now. The consistent polls show this – since 2 years ago the polls have been pretty consistent. I think the repeated reference to the way the campaign started with a massive lead for staying in the union to the narrowing of 10% we seen 2 years ago today (the day for the first time in your life Scotland was truly sovereign for half a day) is mentioned regularly by salmond and other wise yes supporters is becuase that is how Scotland is now, virtually 50/50.

      The moment where mr and Mrs mortgage and 2 cars can’t have 2 holidays a year but only one, and when they go on that holiday and have to exchange £-€ and its 1 to 1 or maybe even 80p – 1€ that’s when the people we need to move over will come. It’s depressing I know that people will view there right to self governance and standing up on the own 2 feet to how much money is in there pocket but that’s how the world is. Capitalism and western need for products and life style choices based on tweets about holidays and nights out with friends has created a social and psychological vacuum in people’s brains that can’t be filled with facts but it can only be filled with a shallow need to be popular with online social media friends.

      Hats off to better together for realising cash was gonna be the best way to swing it. Mortgages, pensions and folks holidays. Personally I think on the cash issue yes can sit back and watch brexit rip apart folks wallets. The £ can’t possibly sustain and survive brexit. Now to the typical guy on the street just managing his bills every month the £ on the world stage ain’t gonna seem much. The £ fall is gonna really hurt the mobile social crowd made by thatcher and Blair. It was that middle income lot that fucked us over in the last indyref. The folk on mortgages they couldn’t really afford, stretched to breaking point with car, house and tick/Chucky/debt whatever ya want to call it. The people I like to refer to as scum trying to live the lie of the modern Britain.

      I mean the whole system is crap. Debt debt and more debt. People one pay check from being out in the street. It was those dipshits who shat it and voted no. There the ones who will come to yes but only after finical meltdown. It’s just a shame a lot of poor vunrable people are gonna go down first.

    83. galamcennalath says:

      The choice will be between Indy or staying in a nasty right wing regime. The EU is significant but in the greater scheme of things is hardly central.

      For me the significance of Brexit is not that we might be taken out of the EU, but that we are being removed against our will. The situation only further highlights the democratic hopelessness of the Union. If is the last straw rather than the main reason for IndyRef2.

      If you desire to live in a right wing UK then fair enough, that’s your choice. And that should be your reason for opposing Indy.

      Anyone opposing Indy because they don’t like the EU really has to have a rethink about where the damage to Scotland has been coming from! I just can’t see how anyone could conclude that Brussels is a bigger threat than London.

    84. Mike says:

      Andy D
      How would you have felt if Scotland voted to leave but England kept us in?
      The point is we’re only leaving the EU virtue of England and the English electorate. That’s how it will be for us in this disunion of unequals.
      You got the decision you wanted this time but what about other issues other times? What about our next Government in Westminster and the one after that? What if the pro union cabal gain control over the Scottish Parliament?
      If the same party gains control over both Parliament we even lose devolution never mind Independence. Not only that they can remove any so called powers they’ve given us at any time.
      To make Scottish Indy and issue with regards to the EU is incredibly disingenuous.
      You surely cant hate the EU more than you hate being ruled from Westminster. I cant believe any pro Indy supporter does?

    85. Artyhetty says:

      Do folks really know exactly what we would do without EU funding for essential community projects, for major, innovative and world class research?

      Worst case scenario, out of EU, in UKOK. I will be out of here, and will make sure my children make a quick exit as well, they are lucky to have right to live in Austrlia and New Zealand.

      This corrupt, greedy, merciless, top down, secretive, bullying UKOK WM government will have Scotland’s guts for garters if they get their brexit and get to keep Scotland shackled. I don’t want to live in a one party state as is the UKok, with no human rights, no workers rights, no NHS unless you can pay £40 to see your GP. With their taking Scotland backward regards renewables, dumping nuke waste where they like, very likely dumbing down Holyrood. Look at how they treat Scotland now, politically and economically, why would anyone want to stay in their UKOK when it is clear things will get a whole lot worse after brexit and they really will punish Scotland.

    86. heedtracker says:

      Not insane Tom Gordon recommends,

      http://archive.is/xqvdg

      “I was I think the first to point out that leaving the EU would make Scottish independence untenable. My friend Malcolm Cameron calls this the “Effie Deans Doctrine”.

    87. Breeks says:

      One opinion poll I would like to see is a straight Yes – No for independence question, but weighted along the lines of Extremely YES, Very YES, reluctant YES, neutral, reluctant No, Very No, or Extremely No.

      It would be nice to how big a body of people are flexible somewhere in the middle, and how many can be written of as thoroughly entrenched and definitely not for changing.

      At one time I agreed that Independence should not be bound to issues such as Europe, Defence, Currency etc, but instead sharply focussed to the pure issue of sovereignty; the fountain of life from which all other waters flow.

      In general terms, I haven’t changed my views. But where Europe is concerned, I have.

      I don’t think the UK is satisfied with exiting Europe. Truth is, I think they resent the fact their hystionics have backfired and they now have to put their money where their mouth is. They have made fools of themselves but cannot admit it. I think few things would make the Brexiteers happier than Europe descending into chaos and ethnic division for no better reason than it would mirror their own nasty prejudices and widen the footprint of their insular ideology.

      European instincts however are to nip right wing extremism and xenophobia in the bud, and keep a cool head while trying to cope with a large influx of refugees and immigrants. It is under a great deal of pressure, but Europe is still trying to do the right thing.

      Compare that to the UK, the traditional spoilt brat of European strategic planning, who’s bombs and hawk-like foreign policy helped create the refugee crisis in the first place, tainted the issue of mass movement with Muslim extremism, and even now agitates and conflates hatred and division between its own immigrants and loathsome right wing knuckle draggers. Britain is under pressure too, but pressure that is self inflicted and borne out of ignorance and rank stupidity.

      Scottish Independence has evolved. No longer is it just about the freedom to make our own way in the world, we need the power of choice to align ourselves by choice with European desires for constructive integration. Or else we align ourselves by muted default with the narrow minded biggotry of British Nationalism, which already has Polish blood on its hands, and indeed Jo Cox.

      Scotland is the weather vane. If we stand by Westminster, then we strengthen their hand and condemn ourselves to stand sullen in their narrow minded and bitter shadow. To me, that seems a joyless place I don’t wish to be. If we choose Europe, Scotland becomes a prize salvaged from the calamity of Brexit and the affirmation which rejects blood and soil Nationalism to embrace European solidarity. Suddenly I have a smile on face.

      I keep calling to mind Alyn Smith’s stirring speech about Scotland not abandoning Europe, and imploring Europe not to abandon Scotland. We do need Europe, but right now, I think Europe needs us rather badly, and the courageous “us”, the stubborn bloody minded Scots who hold our ground and stand up for what is right.

    88. heedtracker says:

      Oops, that recommend’s from

      https://twitter.com/cultfree54

      who says we’re a warning to the world. My friend Malcolm Cameron calls this the “ Tom Gallagher Doctrine”. I have no idea who Malcolm Cameron is though. But he’s sounds lovely.

    89. Mike says:

      I’m telling you folks its the pensioners who are key to our Independence not the EU!
      It was pointed out to me on a previous blog on WoS that pensioners make up 37% of the Scottish electorate.
      Going on recent polls over 80% of them support staying in the UK.
      Don’t get hung up on the 11% who cant understand the difference between Westminster and Brussels and start concentrating on winning over the +60s!
      Pensions is the key to Indy! If a Scottish Government can credibly over a better pension in an Indy Scotland we will win Indy ref 2 hands down. 11% EU sceptics or no.

    90. galamcennalath says:

      Artyhetty says:

      “WM government will have Scotland’s guts for garters if they get their brexit and get to keep Scotland shackled”

      Very true. If we don’t leave fairly soon, there will be no Scotland left to do anything or go anywhere.

      The worst scenario will be if IndyRef2 returns a second NO win. Then, they will go ahead and erase Scotland. It will definitely then be no more than an impoverished North Britain region. Old people will one day reminisce about the time when that could have been different. Young people won’t believe them.

    91. Dorothy Devine says:

      Heedtracker , I really didn’t enjoy that, in fact I sympathise with the chap who said it was a pile of ordure.

    92. Iain More says:

      I would be one of those unhappy 11% then but I would still vote Yes. As far as I am concerned London is the root of all that is evil in the World.

      I would always vote Yes because I am Scottish first and Scottish second and Scottish last and always and never an effin Brit ever.

      If I am one of the unhappy 11% then it seems to be that the right really miserable bastards are those 28% that want their cake and want to eat it. I wonder how many of the British Nationalists have applied for Irish Passports since the EU Vote? I bet it has been in the thousands!

      As for the even more miserable 23% who are dependent on England giving them their UKOK Tory nirvana fix then they know where the border is and may they head for it as soon as possible and riddance to them.

      I would prefer an Indy Scotland outside of the EU but we just had a Referendum on EU membership and it was pretty decisive as far as I am concerned. I chose to respect the decision of my fellow Scots to stay in the EU. I respect the result of that Referendum but I don’t respect the result of the Scots Indy Referendum because in my gut I will always feel that Referendum was rigged and thus lost by hook and by crook. The conduct of the Bitter Together Campaign leaves a vile taste in my mouth to this day!

      LONDON/WESTMIDDEN IS TO THE ROOT OF ALL THAT IS EVIL IN THE WORLD!

    93. heedtracker says:

      Not insane Tom Gallagher says read this then watch Andrew Marr weewee all over his Scotland region tonight.

      http://archive.is/XwspQ

      Better Together “absolutely appalling”, says Tory grandee Michael Forsyth

      BETTER Together’s Project Fear approach in the independence referendum was “absolutely appalling” and generated an avoidable backlash, Tory peer Lord Michael Forsyth has admitted.

      I thought that nice Mr Cameron’s speech 19th Sept 2014 outside No.10 explaining fcuk the sweaties, its England all the EVEL way was what won it. Then The Vow turned out sweet fa. Blair McDougal and co made a lot of money though.

    94. galamcennalath says:

      Mike says:

      “I’m telling you folks its the pensioners who are key to our Independence not the EU!”

      You could be right. Also, the two may not be unrelated. I am convinced the way to deal with pensioners is to bribe them. Nothing unreasonably or underhand, all that needs to be offered is that iScotland will match the best state pension in the EU.

      Some countries have earnings related state pensions (Sweden, Germany, Spain) which can result in a figure three/four times the UK figure. Presumably people have paid into this rather than company or private schemes.

      A better comparison is with those who don’t have earnings related (Ireland, Denmark, Netherlands) and here the state pension is around 50% higher than the UK’s.

      So, as part of the deal for IndyRef2 the offer should be made to increase the state pension to equal the best over the first 5 years of Indy.

      Politicking and bribery aside, why should an oil rich country have poor state pensions?

    95. Sinky says:

      According to Sunday Times Scotland In Union raised £300,000 at dinner auction at Prestonfield House on Thursday evening.

      Do the donors and purchasers of the expensive prizes have to declare this to the electoral commission if not why not as this is clearly a politcal organisation set up by the Tories with active support from their UKIP and Lib Dem bedfellows.

    96. manandboy says:

      The Scottish Government’s primary policy for the new parliament is Education. But there’s more to education than schools, colleges and universities. Nicola needs to better educate the electorate on the politics and economics of Scotland. To do this she will need her own TV station. Why? Because Westminster has its own TV station, as everyone knows, the BBC, and they never stop their corrupt political education/propaganda.

      Democracy, equality and justice, demand that Scotland have the freedom to set up its own TV station. The Scottish Government without the ability to broadcast on TV is like a salmon without a tail.

    97. manandboy says:

      O/T A suggestion for The National – serialise the McCrone Report with marketing to match.

    98. Ken500 says:

      Broadcasting is devolved, because the majority voted NO. There is nothing the Scottish Gov can do about it. Vote YES for broadcasting not Westminster propaganda. Not the BBC crooks.

    99. Proud Cybernat says:

      Perhaps something like this may help to clarify and crystlise peoples’ thinking on this issue…

      http://imgur.com/a/dXZys

      (The percentages won’t be exact as I used a very rough guide for this but they won’t be far off).

    100. Ken500 says:

      The Key to Independence is the young, savvy, computer, literate, educated young folk. Scotland has one of the best education system in the world.

    101. heedtracker says:

      Dorothy Devine says:
      18 September, 2016 at 5:09 pm
      Heedtracker , I really didn’t enjoy that, in fact I sympathise with the chap who said it was a pile of ordure

      Sorry Dorothy. But to be fair, old Effie’s merely bashing out exactly what’s planned for Scotland by the tories. We can either keep on letting them go nuts on Scottish democracy or its independence. His rule Britannia cringe is funny though, “Scotland’s a proud great country, but only if England runs it, otherwise, its completely shite.”

    102. manandboy says:

      Isn’t it symptomatic of British propaganda, that, including here in Scotland, so many speak of Europe as if the British Isles were not a part of it. And furthermore, that we should consider it as both foreign and hostile.

    103. kininvie says:

      There’s a problem. The SNP’s manifesto on indyref2 was predicated on ‘a material change of circumstances, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU…’

      It follows that justification for Indyref2 – especially in the eyes of the soft No voters we need – has to be the Brexit question, and the only hope of winning the No but Remain voters lies in giving them assurance of Scotland’s continued desire for membership.

      It’s simply no use now taking the ‘we’ll decide later’ line that many of us used last time. The decision is now starker than that.

      What I find interesting is that ceaseless doorstep conversations since July fling up the same response: And that is that it is not Brexit of itself that is shifting the soft Nos, it is the incompetence of Westminster in dealing with it.

      They tell us they will wait and assess the final result (so they won’t show up in current polls). But if they think that result will be worse for them than independence, they will shift over very quickly.

      We’re making careful note of where we find this response, so that when indyref2 is called, we’ll be right back to them.

      Meanwhile, the more incompetence from WM and the harder the Brexit deal, the better for us.

    104. heedtracker says:

      According to Sunday Times Scotland In Union raised £300,000 at dinner auction at Prestonfield House on Thursday evening.

      Once again showing us just how much cash there is currently going for anyone at all ready to monster everything Scotland running Scotland. The dude behind Scotland in Union’s a middle class loafer in Edinburgh. Or just ask Loki the Rapper is it? That guy’s now billionaire JK Rowling’s poodle. Cheap too.

    105. manandboy says:

      Proud Cybernat – http://imgur.com/a/dXZys – gold dust!! Brilliant.

    106. Ken500 says:

      Bet Alex Salmond’s out sells Alex Gallagher’s. Who?

      The Scot’s invented TV, Telephone – telecommunication – Internet. Scottish invention changed the modern world. People from Scotland emigrated all over the world 40 million diaspora. Scotland has friends all over the world.

      China – ‘Scotland the land of Invention’

      ‘Britain – a small island without Empire’

    107. Ken500 says:

      Forsyth Thatcher’s henchmen who colluded, as she illegally and secretly took the equivalent of £Billions of Oil revenues and devastated the Scottish economy. Creating poverty.

      Forsyth should have told his mate Osbourne to stop taxing the Oil sector at 60/80% when the price had fallen 75%. Losing revenues and thousands of jobs in Scotland. The Tiries committed electoral
      fraud in 31 constituencies. Most of them should be put in jail. The Tories are ruining the world economy. Never trust a Tory.

    108. Grouse Beater says:

      Ammunition: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-9QH

      Anybody at Glasgow Green?

      How did it go?

    109. CameronB Brodie says:

      The “Right to Development” provides a framework of international law aimed at ensuring full public participation in all social, economic and cultural policy development, as well as local control of national wealth and natural resources. Obviously, Scots are not allowed this ‘privilege’.

      http://www.un.org/en/events/righttodevelopment/pdf/rtd_at_a_glance.pdf

      Unfortunately the Scottish Human Rights Commission was unable to comment on the British state’s denial of my human rights as “the Commission is not a complaints handling body, and we are unable to give legal advice or representation to individuals.” As such, I have been directed here.

      http://www.scottishhumanrights.com/humanrights/helpandadvice

      @ HMG
      Do you intend further compounding your history of abusing Scots by ignoring their democratic choice to stay in the EU? Some habits are hard to kick I suppose, such as Scotland’s high value exports. Just my opinion but I think your on to plums if that is your plan.

    110. AndyH says:

      Brexit offers a chance to quickly become Independent, however I think it is coming anyway though. It’s still just a matter of timing.

      The post war generation who basically have experienced the best of times in many ways, are massively in favour of the Union.

      They are in decline though and if we don’t get Independence just now the it’s surely only ten or so years down the line.

      Younger generations of Scots simply do not accept the MSM tells the truth.

      The skewed reporting of the things went on in Palestine a couple of years ago and the blatant bias in the Indy referendum woke up a lot of people to the truth, myself included.

      We just don’t have to play the Yoon game and accept this nonsense about it being once in a generation.

      As long as the SNP are in power it should always be on the cards. We can call it whenever we like.

    111. Ken500 says:

      Broadcasting in not devolved, despite the SNP asking for more control time and time again. A New Charter. Lord Hall doesn’t think the BBC is biased. Blairite Purnell creative director. Cameron appointed a fraudster banker. May had ditched her. Who next for the poison chalice? £3/4Billion for that nonsense.

    112. Artyhetty says:

      Re;Mike@5.04pm

      Probably in the main you are right. Have to say while having to be in waiting rooms, wards etc at a big hospital, the Western in Edinburgh last week, it was mainly older folks who needed treatment. The NHS is a big one for the people who are more likely to need it and who feel a sense of entitlement, rightly so, but they are also more much more likely to watch the bbc and read the daily rags and believe it is all actually factual.

      By the by, the Western was planned to be shut down completely when Labour were in Holyrood, not so very long ago. The hospital has now been extended in fact and is essential, due to where it is and in terms of capacity. What Edinburgh would have done with just one main hospital on the southern edge of the city, hardly bares thinking about.

    113. heedtracker says:

      How it works UKOK style. Note how the Times farts Scotland in Union into the teamGB ether but there’s no mention of the loafer running it. He’s do well though, career wise, Scottish wild life gets shot to bits though by likes of the Flipper. What a bunch.

      http://archive.is/TSR2W

    114. manandboy says:

      The UK – a definition.

      A State in permanent deceipt and treachery.

    115. Tinto Chiel says:

      Proud Cybernat: an excellent and clear graphic that makes the point perfectly.

      Mike and galamcennalath: I agree about pensions. We were skewered by Bitter Together lies on this subject last time and feel the SG should abandon the high ground for once and simply offer the inducement of a much improved state pension to the older voters.

      Once we’re independent we’ll be able to afford it, after all…..

    116. James Keown says:

      As I am a non resident Scot {living in East Anglia}I do not have a vote in the matter ,and rightly so as I believe its a decision to be taken by those who live there. I am also proud to be a member of the Scottish National Party and believe in independence, being an independent nation is the only way to ensure we can have the country we wish for . Once we have that ability to make decisions we can then decide for ourselves what other groups, unions and international organisations we want to be a part of . It will be Scotland’s choice to make. Being independent is surely just the beginning of our journey not the end of it.

    117. Alan Gerrish says:

      Scott says at 12.39 pm:

      We all know how the yoons went on about Michelle Thompson and the msm being complicit with them,its time the SNP took the gloves and get stuck into the Tank and Willie and ask what they are doing about these two.

      And they’re still going on about Michelle, Scott. In today’s Sunday Herald article : “Police probe into LibDem MSP’s expenses”, Tom Gordon rounds off his piece with the amazing claim: “Meanwhile the former SNP MP for Edinburgh West, Michelle Thomson, is being investigated in connection with potential mortgage fraud linked to her £1.5 million property empire”. You just can’t help yourself Tom, eh? Maybe you could write an evidence-based article on this if you’re so sure.

      The sooner Michelle is re-instated – and I believe there are signs that might happen soon – the better

    118. Alex Clark says:

      See our older folk, Yes I’m talking of your ma or da, your granny and yer grandpa. Well the’re entitled to a vote just the same as the rest of us.

      The problem for those that support Independence is that the numbers show your granny is 75% certain to vote NO.

      We can defeat this though, we have to tell our grannies that the vote is not about them, the future belongs to their grandchildren.

      Let them decide should be our mantra, if yer granny can’t bring herself to vote Yes persuade her that she should let the grandchildren decide for themselves and that she should abstain if she can’t vote yes.

      Don’t fear to fight with yer granny 🙂

    119. starlaw says:

      Britain knocked out of the Davis Cup .. Goodbye to that bit of Union Jackery

    120. Indigo says:

      Not long back from the rally, tried to say hello at the Wings stand but since the queue was 5 to 10 folk deep every time we walked past, didn’t get a chance.

      Will be raising a glass to everyone who helped out, you guys must be absolutely exhausted

    121. Dal Riata says:

      Switched on the TV this morning to rabbit-in-the-headlights eyes, Fluffy Mundell, giving it how great an opportunity Brexit will be for all – especially Scotland (lol) – and that all the “scaremongering” should stop from those Nasty Nats led by the disruptive Nicola Sturgeon…FFS!

      What an absolute hypocritical fannybaws that eejit is! Are we supposed to forget that he and Davidson were claiming what a disaster Brexit would be for all and sundry… pre the referendum that brought a Brexit result! Duplicitous Tory lying liars…

    122. Kevin Evans says:

      As far as polls are concerned why don’t we do our own poll and I don’t mean get the Rev to organise one for us by a polling company. Would it be illegal for some of our more responsible and trusted wings members to do some “cold calling” and compline our own poll.

      On the premise “hi, we are conducting a poll and we were hoping you could answer some of the following questions”.

      We here in wings set the questions and demographic.

      Get a spread of around 3000 people.

      Group them into sections of 400 each. 16-24, 25-33,34-42, 43-50 and so on then devide them into groups of yes and no’ers, then sub divide them into leave and remain.

      Then just ask the questions we all want to know. If tomorrow there was a vote on independence would you vote yes or no.

      Skip the polling campanies with there pishy questions and we on wings start doing our own poll.

    123. Dal Riata says:

      And then who do the BBC endear us with a close-up of during Andy Murray’s match, but Fluffy Mundell looking like a right tit in his “Back The Brits” T-shirt and waving his Union Jack rattle!?

      The state of him, FFS!

    124. clipper says:

      Grouse Beater 6.41

      I got there about 2.30ish and stayed till about 4 or so. A quite respectable turnout bearing in mind that these indy rallies are never advertised/publicised adequately. I’ve met people (not elderly) who voted yes in 14 and will do so again who are barely aware that WoS exists. They’re online but use it mostly for Facespook, sports, gaming, dating etc.

      In the Glasgow/Greater Glasgow area there’s probably 15-20 thousand people sufficiently motivated to go if they knew anything about it in the first place. Having said that I’m not sure how an indy rally moves people from soft no to yes but a large turnout would scare and anger unionists and the only good unionist is a scared and angry unionist, that’s if they heard anything about it in the first place.

      Good idea, in fact a very good idea about ensuring a significant uptick in pensions but only with indy. A lot of these miserable old nawbags care more about that than they do about the future of their grandkids. NS should, providing it could be guaranteed, keep it under her sleeve till near the time for the indyref2 vote.

    125. yesindyref2 says:

      @Grouse Beater
      I got there about 3.30. missed the YES Bikers, seemed to me to be more bikes than at last year’s HoF.

      It was good well organised, good crowd and I’d say from the people I saw walking and driving away it was double that earlier – the rain was coming on. Sound systems were very good, music one end belting out a good volume from a portable jenny I’d like though no idea what I’d want it FOR.

      I had very little idea of what it would be like, and that’s the problem – no publicity outside presumably of facebook and twitter which I and many, don’t do. From OT I’d got the idea somehow it was a Wings thing, until a day or two ago, and had no idea of the times until yesterday. Also needs some sort of programme so people know not just what, but when it’s happening.

      Good to put faces to monikers. If you see it on TV, I was the one with the YES badge.

    126. Vambomarbeley says:

      Was at Glasgow green this afternoon. The sun didn’t shine but the people I met more than made up for. Walking back into town with Brian. The two ladies at the Doulton fountain. Explaining the symbolisim of it all. Nichola lady in the Bobby soxs and April. Lady with a knotty problem and a Mohawk
      The independence movement is a very broad church as shown today. Many people are travelling the road and hoping to reach the destination of independence. So let’s all be a little more tolerant of each other. To parody the meaning of life. Every vote is preys precious. Let’s not loose any one along the way.
      If I have got any names wrong. Sorry. I’m getting old.

    127. annabella says:

      I voted yes to independence and remain euro, my main reason to vote remain was to bring on indiref2. Where I live there’s high unemployment and not enough social housing to go round, loada of families having to go to private landlords. When I talk to people round here most voted to leave euro or didn’t bother to vote at all, the main reason being that they believe foreigners are jumping the gueue for social housing. Almost all are not racist and generally are friendly towards their neighbours. I don’t know how leaving Europe would solve their problems its not that Scotland being a welcoming country that’s the problem here, but rather that the shortage of social housing is causing a sense of unfairness. I know the sg are working towards building new social housing stock but much more is needed. Its also frequently said that the sg are only focusing on the whole issue of remaining in Europe and protecting the the rights of eu citizens living in Scotland while the poorest communities will just have to put up with the private housing option. Its so wrong to dismiss them as xenophobes their views must be listened to and addressed, my fear is that if their not these people who voted massively for independence might not bother votin at all in indieref2.

    128. One_Scot says:

      ‘The state of him’

      Never mind him, What about the state of the BBC, oh yeah I forgot they are required by charter to promote the UK, especially in Scotland.

    129. paul says:

      I’m in the 11%, but you can’t make a decision without independence.

    130. Rock says:

      Order of priorities:

      1. Destroy the BBC.

      2. Get Independence.

      3. Everything else including purring queen, collapsing sterling, EU.

      Scotland will not be able to become independent as long as the BBC exists.

    131. yesindyref2 says:

      Priority 1 – Independence
      Priority 2 – playing tiddleywinks, whatever

    132. Cal says:

      I know two of the 11%. One will vote for independence no matter what. The other one is glad we’re leaving the EU and wouldn’t vote for independence if it meant staying in the EU. He’s a victim of the right wing English Tory comic newspapers. He hates immigrants and sees them all as scroungers. There’s no reasoning with him. Propaganda is a wicked thing…

      I think because of people like him we need Brexit to be a disaster. I’m quite optimistic about that 🙂 The May government is in a very bad place at the moment with virtually no wriggle room. They have made fools of themselves around the world and have severely pissed off every other EU country especially Ireland who it seems to me have got a major headache ahead with their border with the North. Fortunately, the other EU countries are playing hard ball and do genuinely seem to want to be rid of the UK once and for all. May is clearly a very weak leader (turns out she’s not at all like Thatcher!) who’s only strategy appears to be to procrastinate endlessly in the hope that something will turn up to rescue her from the utter mess that has been created. What if she strings it out till spring 2019 and the next Euro elections? Does the UK take part? If not will we have a ridiculous situation where the UK has to pay to be in the single market but has no democratic representation in the EU parliament. I imagine the other 27 would be delighted with that arrangement. All the money and trade without having to listen to the UK whining about every law they pass. It would be kind of like where Scotland is in the UK right now!!

      So long as the EU can hold it together in the short term we should see the UK suffering economically as a result of Brexit quite soon – there are dark clouds looming for our continental friends but that’s nothing new and without the UK they’ve got a better chance of overcoming their problems. How many new investments by international companies are being postponed, diverted to other countries or simply cancelled as a result of May’s indecision? Why would you take a punt with your money in a country with an uncertain future and a basket case government? I mean Boris Jonston FFS!

      But what a disapointment the English public have been so far! They are having the piss taken out of them daily by the politicians they elected and they do nothing… At least Scots can say they didn’t elect them but the English public have no such excuse.

      Forget the Labour civil war. They’ll just limp along, the right wing too cowardly to split away (I agree with Stu on that). No,the next big thing is the Tory civil war. That’ll be far more interesting than the Labour one. The Tories are in power but with only a slim majority and all the while the rudderless ship drifts towards the rocks….

    133. As a YES / Remain voter I see very little throughout this thread of any apparent appreciation of the EU’s position regarding Scotland being part of the EU either now or later.
      The turmoil which has arisen as a result of the BREXIT vote in the UK is likely to temper any pro Independent Scotland considerations by existing EU members if to all intents and purposes Scotland shows itself to be nothing more than a mini UK in it’s attitude to the EU.
      Why should we expect any assistance if the seeming attitude shown by the bulk of comment is effectively giving the message that our membership is only a means to an end?
      The EU itself will need strong leadership if if it is to survive and evolve beyond this latest setback and it would make little sense for it’s members to encourage Scotland’s case when in the short to medium term we may wish to leave again.
      Any thought of another referendum to determine our views on our EU membership may need to be delayed for between 10 – 20 years, presuming the EU survives for that length of time.

    134. Artyhetty says:

      Rock, really, destroy the bbc? This isn’t Startrek, much as I wish it was. The bbc is a state run highly prized massively funded by the rich and powerful mouth piece.

      The reason we have WoS is to counter the crap from the utterly biased, utterly right wing bbc,
      Anti Scotland, and pro union. No, we will only ensure independence for Scotland with the Scotgov doing a huge balancing act, and they are not daft, but er, neither are the psychos in charge of the propaganda at places like the bbc. It is a game, and if Scotland was not a risk to the UK gravy train, by wanting independence, thy would have instigated art50 by now!

      I bet a few plants were at the indy ref rallies this weekend, looking a bit hip, but not quite right. Have seen em at rallies and they stick out like a sore thumb if you know where to look. It is all organised, orchetrated and planned very well…
      But hey we having nothing, so poor, small and stupid, why would they want Scotland in the fab UKOK?

    135. Taranaich says:

      Here’s a thing that I think Brexit-Yessers should keep in mind: what matters is the Sovereign Will of the Scottish People.

      In 2014, the Sovereign Will according to the official results of the indyref was 55% to stay in the UK – something we want to change by means of a democratic referendum. A majority voted No, and there was no independence. We Yessers may have disagreed, but the bottom line was that the people of Scotland made that choice – that is key. The only way we can change that is a different result in inddyref2, so that it is completely unchallengeable on a constitutional or legal basis.

      In 2016, the Sovereign Will according to the official results of the EUref was 62% to stay in the EU – but this is being denied to us, by virtue of our membership of a phoney union that acts as if Scotland’s a region. As a result, Scotland’s clear democratic choice is being denied. Isn’t that the entire point?

      It absolutely killed us in 2014, but it was our duty as democrats to acknowledge the official result of the referendum – not to respect it, or to accept it, but to acknowledge it – in the knowledge that we are entitled to continue making the argument. That was the vote, we disagreed, we’re going to look to change the peoples’ mind. If you’re a Brexit-Yesser who would rather take Scotland out the EU against the people’s vote, then how can you possibly justify saying you want decisions made about Scotland to be made by Scots?

      I’m not expecting you to start campaigning for EU membership by any means – but as Rev very eloquently states, I expect you to stand up for the idea that the people of Scotland should decide their own future. Not Westminster, not the people of another country, not the media – the people of Scotland themselves.

    136. Grouse Beater says:

      Clipper and YesIndyRef2 – many thanks.

    137. Banksy says:

      The point we have to drive home hard is that regardless of anyone’s personal opinion on Brexit, yet again Scotland voted for one thing and got another. Doesn’t matter if it’s the EU, Trident, or successive Tory governments, we get what our larger neighbours vote for. Every *%$*ing time.
      Putting the case for Indy like that doesn’t alienate the 11% or anyone else, no matter if they wanted to leave or stay in the EU.

      Mike at 5:04 pm, you nailed it re- the pensioners.

    138. Grouse Beater at 6.14

      Lovely afternoon. Big crowd. Over one hundred bikers for independence. Met lots of friends. Then heavy rain intermittemtly. Lots and lots of stalls.

      Terrific contribution from Tommy Sheppard and Paul Kavanagh. Disturbing elements and serious concerns in Robin McAlpine’s regularly contradictory offering. Thinks we need Westminster permission to hold a referendum which of course under the terms of the UN Charter we do not. Wants us to wait five or six years till we are certain to win. There is no such certainty. There never will be.

      What is certain however is that our opposition is in total turmoil right now and we are unlikely ever to get such an opportunity again. He says we should not go for independence when out opponents are all tied up with Brexit and will not want us to have a referendum. What nonsense. There is no better time for us to go for independence than when our opposition is in deep trouble and confusion.

      What is certain is that in the six years that McAlpine wants us to wait, the establishment will have regrouped and sorted itself out, much of the population will have be resigned to the new economic and political realities it lives in and our opportunity will be gone.

    139. Capella says:

      Just think, when the next Olympics come around, there won’t be a TeamGB T-shirt or massed ranks of Union Jacks in sight.

    140. Macart says:

      @Yesindyref2 and Taranaich

      Ayup, pretty much. 🙂

    141. Taranaich says:

      @kininvie: There’s a problem. The SNP’s manifesto on indyref2 was predicated on ‘a material change of circumstances, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU…’

      It follows that justification for Indyref2 – especially in the eyes of the soft No voters we need – has to be the Brexit question, and the only hope of winning the No but Remain voters lies in giving them assurance of Scotland’s continued desire for membership.

      It’s simply no use now taking the ‘we’ll decide later’ line that many of us used last time. The decision is now starker than that.

      This is exactly why it’s important to highlight that 62% of Scots voted to Remain. If you want decisions affecting Scotland to be made by its people, then that must include decisions you disagree with. What’s happening with Brexit is that – yet again – Scotland’s democratic decision is being denied.

    142. caledonia says:

      OT
      Why do the BBC put Scottish football on at 11.45pm on a sunday
      Looks like its been shunted for motd 2 which is on at 10.30

    143. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      @clydebuilt,

      Here is a list of container ports in Europe – main ones in Europe and South of England are really, really massive. Unfortunately Greenock or any other Scottish port is not listed which kind of says it all?

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_ports_in_Europe

      Unfortunately, we are not in mainland Europe and most of our trade currently has to go through England.

      If the 11% think that being dependent on England for access to world markets will be a good thing then they only have to look back in history at the Alien Act, 1705, where Scotland was denied access to Englands markets and ports – even when we were part of the United Kingdom.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_Act_1705

      Losing Scotland will lead to a pretty big backlash from the Tories in Westminster. I think they will be particularly vindictive especially if we are out on our own with no EU partners.

      So I would be looking to have as many friends as possible out in the World and across Europe in particular.

      Staying in Europe initially is the way to do that. If we wish to leave later on then that will be our own decision – but only after we had established a stable relationship with the rUK and the EU and established our own import / export infrastructure.

      However, I think the Scots will be better received in Europe and will have more influence than the UK who have always been reluctant partners. So I would give it a go as I think we would be well received as Scotland is a normal North European country.

      Being independent of UK and EU but dependant on the UK for access to EU and major ports would be a very dangerous position to be in.

      For that reason – it is a non-starter for me.

      On a more positive note…

      At Glasgow Green today not a huge turn out and a bit rainy but well worth the trip – met a few wingers and pals. With my brother, Alan and my two youngest who had a great time.

      Onwards and upwards to a free Independent Scotland.

    144. Kenny says:

      Regarding the actual vote and the campaigning, I was left very queasy by the sight of all politicians lining up together:

      http://cantamilmedia.com/canadian-envoy-warns-brexit-could-cause-generational-economic-impact/

      Shots of an oily Jackie Baillie and John Finnie grinning like an imbecile just did not make me feel right. Jackie Baillie is dishonest, sleekit, cunning and untrustworthy. If she is telling me to vote for something, I cannot help but wonder why. She has no principles. The same goes for all the Tories in that pic, from Davidson down to Fluffy Junior.

      Something just turns my stomach. Why on earth are politicians whose sole job is to tell lies in Holyrood (Ruth on NHS this week, Baillie on absolutely anything) telling us to vote to stay in the EU. These people are not in their jobs to bring good to the people of Scotland, particularly the poor.

      Interesting that the above report carries a quote which reminds me so much of the NO campaign in 2014:

      “Canadian High Commissioner Gordon Campbell says the British public needs to confront the fact that if they vote to leave the EU, it will disrupt not only their country, but the world at large, wreaking havoc on the global economy for a generation.”

      Now, this is just plain stupid. And no mention of neoliberal economics “wreaking havoc on the global economy for a generation” (ironically, particularly in the EU!).

    145. Craig P says:

      37% of the electorate are pensioners – wow, I hadnt realised it was so much!

      I dont know that a bribe is required. Most pensioners I know live in fear of something, whether that is teenagers, Islam, lonliness, etc. The best thing we can do for them is confiscate or replace their Daily Mails.

    146. Tam Jardine says:

      Grouse Beater

      I took my wee girl along. At the mid afternoon peak it was very busy indeed. Plenty of stalls, loads of gear being shifted so I think it will have given the groups out there a good boost. Would be interested to know what the Wings stand and the Ayemail stand took in as they were mobbed, and the quality and diversity of stuff on offer is great.

      Guid to see some regulars inc caz-m (whose posts I miss).

      My daughter would not hang about to listen to speeches- did hear Robin McAlpine talking about wanting to wait until 2020 for the next referendum… I mean jesus H Christ we didn’t lose by a mile last time and in brexit we just got the biggest boost imaginable. If you have courage in your arguments you don’t need a four year regrouping exercise. Where staying in the EU figures in Robin’s 4 year brexit then indy plan I don’t know- I didn’t hang around to find out.

      Other impressions- if there was a program I certainly have not seen it- I have no idea if I left 2 minutes before Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon performed a duet of Something Stupid on stage.

      Sorry to repeat myself but the movement needs a more straightforward unified way of getting the message out to attract more people.

      I get spam emails everyday from the guardian, national, common space that I have not yet unsubscribed. A mailing list for all yes events might be one way forward and I would actually read it. A single twitter account posting only yes events might be another way.

      Again, if you are not on facebook you can feel like a lone wolf.

      All in all- a great afternoon out and there is plenty energy and fun in this pre-campaign stage. We are starting from a good place although the phony war period we are in does show.

      Great seeing some old friends and meeting some new ones.

      And thanks to those who punted into Sarah Johnston’s campaign- it is now standing at £4185.

    147. CameronB Brodie says:

      “I bet a few plants were at the indy ref rallies this weekend, looking a bit hip, but not quite right. Have seen em at rallies and they stick out like a sore thumb if you know where to look.”

      That must have been the thought process I went through when I spotted the Angry Walnut at the Calton Hill rally in 2014. I’m glad to see he has worked his fingers to the bone so as to confirm my personal assessment of his credibility. No wonder he’s all emotional. 🙂

      @ Angry Walnut
      Won’t you support the people of Scotland’s “Right to Development”?

    148. Grouse Beater says:

      Good report, Tam. Thanks.

    149. Grouse Beater says:

      I’m obliged, Dave. “Lovely afternoon. Big crowd. Over one hundred bikers for independence. Met lots of friends. Then heavy rain intermittently.”

      Rain, the one element than can’t beat a No voter.

    150. CameronB Brodie says:

      China likes building ports anywhere they can. Just saying. 🙂

    151. Black Joan says:

      As another abstainer from Faceache I agree with comments re lack of publicity and absence of a programme for today’s Glasgow Green event. No idea who was speaking when.

      Same problem last week with the Edinburgh for Europe event at Bruntsfield Links (where Wings material was only allowed to be displayed “discreetly”, and even that was a concession which had to be negotiated. WTF?)

      Great atmosphere today and magnificent Bikers for Independence (wonderful to see them leaving Edinburgh and arriving in Glasgow).

      And brilliant work by Lindsay/AyeMail and the WoS team. Thanks to all.

    152. Breastplate says:

      Mike is right about inducements for pensioners.
      Our First Minister should make some sort of a pledge to raise pensions (we could call it The Vow)and preferably announce it just before Indy2 in the Purdah period.
      Well, I mean, they started it after all. 😉

    153. Tam Jardine says:

      Dave McEwan Hill

      Glad to read I was not alone in my appraisal of Robin McAlpine’s suggestion. If I wasn’t so fond of the guy I would be questioning his motivation. Had remain won i would have accepted someone suggesting indyref 2 in 2020. Four years man! Or longer even! Why not just leave it a bleedin generation! Or better still, why bother at all if there is no urgency.

      I dig the long game but there’s long and there’s taking the piss.

    154. Famous15 says:

      Nobody is talking about the Davis Cup!

      All I want to say is I did not take kindly to the frenetic British Nationalism.

      Too much British Nationalism can be counter productive. I am not feeling any more British. Quite the reverse I hesitate to say.

      The pure simplicity of Scottish civic nationalism and even internationalism is much more appealing.

    155. Effijy says:

      The Bastard Broadcasting Corporation have shown their true colours again.

      A BBC journalist has won £50,000 in compensation after he was sacked for prioritising a report on Sri Lankan politics over the birth of Prince George.

      Chandana Keerthi Bandara, 57, lost his job as a producer on a BBC Sri Lankan news service, and sued the BBC for unfair dismissal and race discrimination.

      He had worked for the BBC for 18 years and had been a senior producer on the Sinhala service since 2000. Mr Bandara was in charge of publishing stories on July 23, 2013, the day after Prince George was born.

      But he decided not to prioritise the royal birth story, partly, he said, because it was the 30th anniversary of Black July, a brutal period which saw thousands of Tamil people killed in Sri Lanka.

      The BBC are Biased, Bigoted, Bullies.
      Immoral, Racists and Promulgators of Propaganda!

      Read it for yourselves!

      http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/bbc-journalist-wins-%c2%a350000-payout-after-failing-to-prioritise-report-on-prince-georges-birth/ar-BBwjAgf?ocid=spartandhp

    156. call me dave says:

      Alex Salmond predicts Nicola Sturgeon’s efforts will lead to independence

      http://archive.is/Djcm8

    157. Muscleguy says:

      I think a lot of the Leave people are those who vote for whatever looks like change because their lives are crap. I also think they will vote for Yes like last time for the same reasons. Especially as the actual impacts of Brexit become apparent. The price rises from the lowered pound have not come yet because of futures purchases, but come the new year they will begin to feed into things like food and clothing prices.

    158. yesindyref2 says:

      Cracking quote from Ruth Davison in her article in the Sunday Herald:

      At least one thing does feel a long time ago: the SNP’s pledge that the vote be “once in a generation”.

      Ummmm, I think the polite word is “inept”.

    159. DebzoHighland says:

      Mike 12.28pm
      You can’t blame the old folks! Was at my local branch Hustings last night and the majority of the audience were older folks. My Dad 81, Mother 78, Aunt 85, Uncle 92, other uncle 76 all vote SNP as well as many other elderly family and friends. In the Highlands, our problem is convincing some of the incommers to stand up for Scotland. A lot of them have comfortable lives and do not want to rock the boat. However, they tend to have moved up here after retirement and have never experienced trying to make a living here. So they have no idea of the economic challenges of the region with regard to opportunities for employment , especially for our young folk.
      Being a professional self employed person belonging to and working in the Highlands I hope to be able to enlighten some of those folk to the reality. Old or young. It is certainly worth a try.
      With regard to Brexit, my Yes brother voted to leave the EU. I voted Yes and Remain. Following the result I asked him how he would vote in an IndyRef that was for or against an iScot in the EU. Given that we have waited hundreds of years for the opportunity to leave the UK and can call a Scexit at any time in an IScot. In May he said he didn’t know. Today he is reposting indyScot posts on FB. A wise man following consideration, let’s hope there are more like him!
      A new IndyRef just prior to Brexit is what is needed. Once Theresa May has explained exactly what Brexit means to the UK and the fall out which Scotland will have to endure.
      Bye bye EU funding for the Highlands & Islands infrastructure for a start! How utterly insulting! We are surrounded by natural resources, yet we have to be subsidised by EU funding as an impoverished region of the EU.
      Westminster made Scotland an impoverished nation whilst lining their own pockets with our riches. It needs to stop!
      And FMQ this week was dispicable! Ruth Davidson slagging off the SNHS, based on a UK wide report which only included 3 Scottish hospitals out of 94 ( who’s excellent records had been dragged down by the rUK performance to give disappointing average figures). Ken Mackintosh needs to demand a retraction and apology next week or we might as well be watching Jankanory every Thursday.
      Rant over for the night!
      Hi Dusty, if you are reading, good to see you last night. Folks are home, safe and sound.
      Both had been in Raigmore Hospital receiving top quality care from our wonderful SNHS.
      Highland out of hours service needs to be reviewed and improved, but this will only come about if enough folk lobby their MP. I will send Paul an email tomorrow.
      It’s great to have a government who ask your opinions, listen to your response and try their very best to accommodate your requests.

    160. Mike says:

      DebzoHighland
      I’m sure there will always be exceptions to every rule but the fact remains of the 37% pensioners within the Scottish electorate over 80% appear to support the union. The people you mention are clearly part of the 20% or so.
      If we can convert 20% of the 80% then it will get us over the line comfortably and the only way to do that is to buy them with their pensions.
      Its either that or wait another generation or even 2.

    161. Robert Louis says:

      Effijy at 1001pm,

      Indeed. what happened in that case, shows EXACTLY how the BBC literally FORCES its editors around the world to tow the rule britannia line. The Person involved quite rightly saw the story about Sri Lanka as much more important than the birth of a boy to some hereditary, unelected, UK head of state-to be.

      Day by day, we are seeing more and more how the BBC literally forces and IS forced by Westminster, to ensure the rule britannia nonsense is perpetuated, at the expense of journalistic integrity and honesty.

      The BBC, no better than cold war USSR PRAVDA. Indeed, with their frankly outrageous pretence of honesty and integrity, they are probably much worse.

    162. davidb says:

      Re No Voting Seniors.

      Their grandchildren should respectfully urge them to stay at home for IR2. The vote is about Scotland’s future. Not its past. If we get it wrong and everyone has to emigrate, so what? Our people have to emigrate now. But surely they can be persuaded that a better country is possible, where their grandchildren don’t need to leave.

      Vote with us, but please don’t vote against us.

    163. Robert Louis says:

      Call me Dave at 1001pm,

      Thanks for the link. I have to say, I am liking what I have been hearing from both Nicola and Alex this weekend. Of course Alex’s instincts are right in the sense that as usual, Westminster will simply ignore Scotland, thereby leaving Scots no choice but to decide for our own interests how to proceed.

      As Nicola indicated, Independence, is not just about brexit or oil, or anything else, it is simply about the decisions for Scotland being made by the people who choose to live and work here. That is a clear, simple message which I believe resonates well. Of course brexit is a factor, but the desire for the restoration of Scottish independence, is about so much more.

      Interesting times. Very interesting times.

    164. yesindyref2 says:

      There’s a few posters on Wings don’t’ like the EU, could I ask if you could tell us WHY you don’t want to stay in the EU? I’d suggest no heated or argumentative replies, it would be just to find out the reasons people don’t like the EU.

    165. Auld Rock says:

      EU or EFTA or none, all I, and I suspect many more, want is just to make our own successes or failures.

      Auld Rock

    166. Lochside says:

      Glasgow Green was disappointing…no focus and music blaring out one end with speakers slow to start and uninspiring. But I went along as I felt I had to be there. The wings stall was busy, but I’m not interested in merchandise particularly.

      Went home and tried to watch the fitba…instead there was an ugly Brit-Fest on with some tennis trying to interrupt it. A phalanx of ‘supporters’ managing to all sit directly in front of the camera with ‘Support the Brit Shits’ or something similar across their ("Tractor" - Ed)ous t-shirts. Must have been a Groupon deal for the ‘scottish ‘ tory party for all this mob of performing seals to get in and sit (better?) together. Best image was at the end…when Argentina won and their supporters were celebrating…in the middle was a guy with an Argentina t-shirt and a jimmy Hat and red wig…..’Maggie May….your boys took a helluva beating’… Roll on Ref 2.

    167. Big Jock says:

      The pro indi Scotland anti Eu people I have met. Wish a Scotland akin to Switzerland or Norway. It’s maybe well intentioned to get more control. But it’s also quite inward looking old fashioned nationalism. A bit like Ukip without the racism and anti foreigner guff. The pro indi anti Eu people I have met are both old Labour not old Snp!

    168. Macca73 says:

      For what it’s worth I think a fair few who voted to leave the EU from Scottish shores were from industry like fisheries where they have been hampered by quota’s and other fishing large quantities of our fish from countries such as Spain and France. Our Westminster Governments have done nothing and stood in the way of negotiations for years allowing the situation to get worse without ever wanting to hear the Scottish voice because .. well it was “Good for the economy” of course!

      We have to show these people the types of compassion necessary and provide answers as to WHY we want to remain in the EU and fight for independence if we’re ever going to win this fight. We should start from negotiating our own standpoint and showing that we can negotiate a fairer more agile deal for the people working hard off our shores each day. Perhaps this will win them over and the EU we know would be willing to listen to such a proposal I’m sure. They WANT us in Europe and it would be a sting in the tail to English politics if we were to show that we CAN put our best foot forwards in talks with Europe. Let’s do it!

    169. Big Jock says:

      Yep Lochside to the world Britain is England. I am afraid I can’t drop my nationality at any given sporting competition. There are many Scots who switch nationalities and see no conflict. To me it’s just bloody weird.

      Well done Maradonas Tennis team!

    170. Robert Peffers says:

      @Mike says: 18 September, 2016 at 12:28 pm:

      “I cant understand why this country is walking such a fine line unless its the age demographic which is holding us back.”

      Obviously you don’t understand it seeing as you are plainly ageist.

      Has it not entered your head yet that these people are not against independence simply because they are older?

      The reason there are more older people in the unionist ranks is NOT because they are older. It is because they are the Tories, Labourites and LibDem.

      In other words you are putting the cart before the horse. The horse before the cart is that there are more older folks who ARE the actual unionist party members as so many younger folks have moved towards independence BEFORE they became Toty, Labour or LibDems.

      Go back some years and the we now older independence supporters were very thin on the ground so there will obviously be fewer older folks who support indy.

      Ergo the reason there is a greater proportion of the voters unionist is because they WERE already members of the unionist parties, or were friends and/or family members of Tory, Labour and LibDem councillors/MSPs/MPs or MSPs not simply because they are older in years.

    171. Stoker says:

      @ Effijy

      Good find, thanks, i’ve archived it before it disappears or some bright spark changes the wording within it. Please, troops, try archiving all links for those very reasons, including ones for The National. You’ll get more people reading those articles.

      BBC journalist wins £50,000 payout…
      http://archive.is/1F5yS

    172. scottieDog says:

      @Yesindyref2

      I voted remain but the common currency was badly hashed together. The EU put itself in a very bad light over its handling of Greece due to its neoliberal ideological thinking.
      The stability growth pact is an incredibly Ill thought out piece of legislation and those enforcing it obviously have little understanding of macro economics.

      My understanding is that even though we don’t adopt the euro We may well have to abide by the terms of the SGP (and it appears we will) then we make it easy for project fear to attack us.

      Scotland will need economic stimulus in order to right the ship. We can’t do that effectively by taking money out of the economy.

      I’m slightly encouraged by guy Verhofstadt’s criticism of the stability growth pact but I can’t see other member states exempting us from the legislation unless it’s abolished – and it should be.

      For me I think that perhaps we need to be taken out of Europe and people on the fence need to see the full force of what an unhindered tory govt really means then perhaps we will come closer to the 60% pro indy people talk about. That said I’d be happy with 51%.

      For me starting from scratch post brexit might tick more boxes. We can accept free movement for membership to the EEA, appeasing to an extent those anti EU folk up here but we are not shackled by financial nonsensical legislation from Brussels. That way we can inject the necessary stimulus into our export market and in the end the deficit takes care of itself.

    173. Auld Rock says:

      On fishing, i would not be at all surprised if the devious bastards in Westminster do a deal to get Banking and Finance passports maintained by continuing to allow EU countries to fish Scottish waters – they did it before. Also the fishermen shouldn’t get any ideas of a free-for-all on the fishing grounds as we don’t want to see us back to diminishing fish stocks again.

      Auld Rock

    174. Sunniva says:

      The Marr show was interesting, in that despite its BritNat bias, Marr did end by saying that Scotland is now a different country from England politically, with Curtice concurring that there was an end to UK party politics. Both agreed that there were now no unifying political cultures giving coherence to the UK as a single entity. Marr concluded that whatever constitutional arrangements were arrived at to deal with this situation, he acknowledged that Scotland’s interests and England’s interests were simply divergent. His investigation of economics skirted the surface but it was a good attempt at showing difference here too. That uplifted my spirits a little, because if he can see that then so can others. I saw the kernal of the way forward. Which is that the strongest argument for indy is simply the democratic one – we are different countries, with different political cultures and different economic potential and it is self-defeating and a travesty of democracy to be shackled together.

    175. Ian Mackay says:

      The timing of indyref2 will surely be dictated by the invoking of Article 50 by Westminster.

      As Teresa May and her cabinet appear to have frankly no idea on which way to approach Brexit my guess is that they have delay the invoking of Article 50 by some distance into 2017. Probably into the summer of 2017 if they can manage to string a waiting EU along that long. (If not, then Alex Salmond is probably on the money with his autumn 2018 indyref2 prediction).

      From the triggering of Article 50 then it is a two year timetable which can only be changed if the EU agrees to extend it. (And the EU aren’t in a mood to offer the UK any favours).

      That will mean that we will be out of the EU in the summer of 2019 if we stay in the UK.

      I’d then be happy with indyref2 in spring 2019. On a Yes vote – if Scotland did need it – then the EU would hold our membership open while our acceptance as a member state is confirmed.

      The advantage of waiting till the spring is that it further weakens any supposed No vote demographic.

      I read somewhere that Scotland has a net mortality loss of around one hundred No voters a day. That’s over and above the loss of Yes voters.

      Time is on our side but we need to use it wisely as we can.

    176. Bill Hume says:

      Regarding independence supporters who also want to be out of the EU. Many look to what the EU has done to Greece and are not at all happy. I’m not happy (although I wish to stay in the EU). The very rational fears of these independence voters must be taken seriously AND addressed.

      We must however, ensure they are made aware of the fact that Scotland needs independence in order to let Scotland decide whether to remain in the EU or not.

    177. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Partly because of the impending rain and partly out of ” ‘satiable curtiosity”, attended the “Scottish Independence Convention: The Reassembly” today instead of the Rally itself. The hall was packed to the gunwales, standing room only. And a good feeling to be re-inspired by a variety of speakers, besides everything else.

      One issue of which more than one speaker was clearly mindful relates directly to this thread. They took care to emphasise that the importance of the Brexit result is not whether you agree or disagree with it, but rather that it exposes, more starkly than ever, the gross democratic deficit that we currently have to suffer. Crucial decisions for our future are being taken by others, not by ourselves.

      It’s only after we get that major problem sorted that we can afford to turn to the minutiae of what comes after.

    178. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 10.26
      While it wouldn’t stop me voting yes,and I voted remain to try to keep some sort of check on Westminster while we are shackled to it.
      I have some deep reservations about Scotland in the European Union.
      Mainly because it seems that it’s so difficult to leave if the country decides rightly or wrongly the union is not working for them.
      The remaining part’s of the union can it seems do damage to the country who is leaving if they choose to.
      For obvious reasons this does not sit well with me.
      To be so integrated with a body that my “ancestors” made me a part of that leaving would be insanely complicated is so reminiscent of the situation we are in now with Westminster, I ,if I am being honest have to wonder if we are making the same mistake?
      We would again be in another practically inescapable union and while it would be pretty to think it would indeed be beneficial for us we haven’t exactly had a great experience of Union’s so far.
      If it was easy to leave but attractive enough to stay then everything changes,as it no longer mirrors Westminster.
      Hope that helps.

    179. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill –

      Missed you – again! I was there all day too…bummer.

      Just to support what you and Tam J said – there was a lot of disgruntlement about Robin McAlpine’s ‘2020’ comments. Deliberately or not he hit a real bum note with that. Okay, it may well be what he believes, but that wasn’t the time or place to give it voice.

      There’s so much frustration around right now, and I heard a lot of it today. The energy/willingness/good humour is still there but it’s being dissipated by shilly-shallying and/or plain daftness.

      I also want to echo Tam’s call for Caz-m to get back here – spoke to him for a good while today. He’s one of the real stalwarts and a credit to this place. As he describes it, we’ve got ‘all the ducks lined up’ for Indyref2. He’s right. When, oh when will we get a solid target to aim for?

    180. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ian B @ 23:13,

      I assume he said that at the rally, but anyway he also said it at the “Reassembly” as well. There weren’t any audible groans, but it certainly didn’t go down well with yours truly. We can’t put this showdown off for ever.

      I’m still catching up with stuff here, but there was a similar bum note in the article by Henry Mcleish in yesterday’s 2nd anniversary National. It seemed to me to be nothing more than a lightly-disguised appeal to give Labour “one more go” at a UKGE in 2020 on the highly-spurious premise of “federalism” (ie Vow Mk.2) rather than any genuine support for independence. If he’s serious, he really has to do far better than this now.

      Maybe some think it’s only after Labour lose in 2020 (as they surely will, given the pending boundary changes, shifts in English sentiment, etc.) that another draft of converts to indy will finally happen. Well, being kept in reserve for one more futile push “over the top” for the sake of Labour in the Union is way too pointless for me.

      Incidentally, Alex Salmond reckons on 2018. (Now, how poignant would that be?!)

    181. Cheers, Ian. We have to get moving. I can see absolutely no reason why the SNP does not campaign for independence on a continual basis. That is what the SNP is for. It doesn’t stop them running the government but the only thing that gets the SNP a voting spur is the independence issue. And that works at all elections. Our opponents who control the media love us battling with them on domestic issues. The only issue which we are on the front foot with is the new, better country independence will give us. They don’t want to argue this one.

    182. Still Positive. says:

      I was at Glasgow Green today with one of my sons. I pointed out to him the number of over 55s there and he had noticed it too.

      We were the ones voting SNP in the 1970s. I will be 66 on Tuesday and have been for an Independent Scotland since 1967 and have voted SNP in all elections where they were standing since October 1974. I voted for Jimmy Reid in February 1974.

      Sorry I missed speaking to some of you Wingers as the stall was so busy.

      I did give a Wee Black Book to a guy at another stall as he wanted to pass it round. Always keep a few in my handbag for such an opportunity.

    183. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g
      It’s quite an eye-opener to see how embedded the UK is in the EU, and how much work to get out of it. Scotland can leave the UK far easier, or at least I think so.

      @scottieDog and @Bill Hume
      I’d forgotten Greece! Yes, that’s a tricky one, but comes in two parts. One is the anger and disgust at what the EU did to Greece, and I don’t think anything can be done about that, I feel that myself. But the other is to show why Greece would not be relevant to iScotland – not in eurozone, and a far lower debt to GDP ratio, plus iScotland having the plan to reduce annual deficit.

      SGP – yes, iScotland would be under that even though not in the eurozone. But it’s not such a frightener as people would make out, the key thing would be from what I’ve read, for Scotland to have a plan to reduce the deficit, an MTO – Medium to Long-Term Objective. I’m going to do some more reading on that, but it looks like Sturgeon is covering that anyway with her new Commission announced last week, part of which will be to look at reducing the deficit. My look at 7 years GERS fiscal balance without oil revenue also shows that Scotland’s deficit without oil is reducing steadily, and would be under 3% in 7 years as long as it keeps going at the current rate.

      Sorry, it looks like I’m denying my own posting and arguing, no but, yes but, ummm. More thinking aloud really.

    184. Lenny Hartley says:

      Re Glasgow Green
      Was hoping for a bigger attendance but given the weather forecast and lack of publicity it wasn’t a bad turnout. Thought the p.a. Was next to useless so never heard any of the speeches. The Stalls were doing a roaring trade especially the W.O.S stand. About a dozen or so from Arran were there and consensus was that it was an enjoyable experience. Although my wee Collie was disappointed that the Wee Ginger Dug would not talk to him, Paul explained to me that he was a rescue Dug and no great with other dugs. I’m glad I went met a few folk , will need to join the Yes Bikers next time it looked like a fun ride out. Overall a positive experience and a nice wee taster of things to come.

    185. Stoker says:

      Ian Mackay wrote:

      “The timing of indyref2 will surely be dictated by the invoking of Article 50 by Westminster.”

      The debate on “invoking Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately” is scheduled to start on 17 October 2016 at Westminster.

    186. yesindyref2 says:

      I’m going to add a couple “against” the EU. One is that as a small nation Scotland will have no influence or power, but as far as I can see recent Council of Ministers voting changes make this less so, plus larger members need our votes. Second is the bureaucracy of the EU – the EC rules the EU, that sort of thing. Which it doesn’t, but again that’s a case of explaining the relationship between the 3 bodies of the EU.

      I voted Remain, reluctantly, been badly hit in business a few years ago by its stupid Directives enforced on member states, but now do some business because of it (easier to buy from me than Canada). But my reading has made me like it a bit more, and that was triggered by the great reception to Alyn Smith’s speech in the EU Parliament.

    187. “.. borrows a question that was first asked by this website (via the same pollster) 14 months ago..”

      Trust you’re collecting royalty fees?

    188. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 00:07,

      One thing we seem to be constantly missing is that (the pending) Brexit is not only making the UK a different place, it is also making the EU a different place.

      The whole institution, Commission, Parliament, etc. has been shaken, and suddenly woken up to the fact that ordinary citizens have been feeling increasingly estranged, that they feel that recent trends have been way too much in favour of powerful business interests and far too little in favour of the little person (and by extension small business too). That understanding is already having an effect, though how it may impinge on a small independent Scotland is of course not yet clear.

      One example already is J.-C. Juncker’s sending the limited “90-day” roaming charge “holiday” back to the Commission for a good rethink.

      An exited rUK will remove with it a strong advocate of neo-liberalism from within the EU. That can only be good.

      There are definite upsides to this thing for those countries who remain, I believe.

    189. Mike says:

      “Obviously you don’t understand it seeing as you are plainly ageist.”

      “Has it not entered your head yet that these people are not against independence simply because they are older?”

      And if I were to tell you I’m over 55 myself would that put it into a better perspective for you?
      I’m trying to highlight a reality here.
      A reality that’s says the largest age group of voters in Scotland is the over 60s and the vast overwhelming majority of them vote for the status quo union call it what you like but it aint Independence or change.
      And if we ignore or fail to target them specifically then we are wasting our time with a second indyref.
      The No camp were quick to target them with scaremongering over their pensions. I believe that was what cost us the referendum.
      FFS this isn’t me having a go at pensioners. I want them on our side!

    190. manandboy says:

      I have the impression that Nicola is much more comfortable with the young than with the elderly. Check out the photo-ops.
      With others, I think that taking care of the elderly, will take care of IndyRef2.
      But, this was raised before IndyRef14 to no avail.

    191. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Mike,

      We have gone “round the houses” on this issue. Misunderstandings can so easily arise – I’ve run into it myself and I’m no longer a spring chicken (alas!) either. But facts are facts, and a preponderance of current older folk are undeniably in favour of the Union.

      But we have to try to change their minds. Someone upthread (I seem to recall) suggested an outright “bribe” (their words) in the form of a promise of an enhanced pension equivalent to the best in comparable EU countries. Worth considering, assuming it’s not open-ended.

      Maybe though it’s enough to provide an “iron-clad” guarantee that the real-terms worth of their pension will be protected for a limited number of years (eg. 10 years), as judged against a suitable basket of currencies.

      A possible parallel tack is for the younger generation to talk and send cards to their elders (related or “adopted”) pleading with them to give them their chosen future, or if the old folks can’t bring themselves to go that far, at least not to stand in the way by voting against.

      I don’t think we can afford the luxury of neglecting any segment of the voting public, and especially one that does reliably turn out and vote.

    192. Onwards says:

      Sunniva says:
      18 September, 2016 at 11:08 pm

      The Marr show was interesting, in that despite its BritNat bias, Marr did end by saying that Scotland is now a different country from England politically, with Curtice concurring that there was an end to UK party politics. Both agreed that there were now no unifying political cultures giving coherence to the UK as a single entity. Marr concluded that whatever constitutional arrangements were arrived at to deal with this situation, he acknowledged that Scotland’s interests and England’s interests were simply divergent. His investigation of economics skirted the surface but it was a good attempt at showing difference here too. That uplifted my spirits a little, because if he can see that then so can others. I saw the kernal of the way forward. Which is that the strongest argument for indy is simply the democratic one – we are different countries, with different political cultures and different economic potential and it is self-defeating and a travesty of democracy to be shackled together.
      ————–

      Yes, and income tax devolution will increase the perception of political difference. Even although the tax power is very limited on its own, people will see they are now paying their personal taxes to different countries.

      The fact Scotland is drifting apart politically is no doubt one of the reasons we are seeing the increased promotion of cultural ‘Britishness’ everywhere. Driving licenses, BBC, food labeling, Olympic funding..

      But politically, the logical thing for Labour to do would be to cut Scotland loose within a federal UK, leaving them free to promote an English Parliament to appeal to a renewed sense of English nationalism. Corbyn is currently seen as unpatriotic in England, and this would shake things up.

      As things stand, Scotland has become a liability for Labour at general elections instead of an asset. The Tories won’t give up their tactic of scaring English voters with visions of a Labour government dependent on the SNP.

    193. Smallaxe says:

      Smallaxe on off topic re’ Glasgow Green.

      Peace Always ALLWAYS

    194. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Onwards @ 01:31:

      the logical thing for Labour to do would be to cut Scotland loose within a federal UK

      Strictly, this would be a confederal UK rather than a federal one (since the latter would treat Scotland as merely one “region” among many roughly equally-sized English ones). It’s hard to know what Labour mean by the term, anyway, but a federal UK is a non-starter because there’s no visible appetite in England for such a massive constitutional upheaval. As for confederation, that might well have been viable at the time of the Smith Commission, but now it’s “too little too late”. Even if the UK Establishment were willing to concede such a significant degree of autonomy to Scotland (doubtful), as we have now seen, even a confederal UK would not give Scotland any more power over significant matters such as foreign policy, military policy and economic policy, so why even bother…?

      I don’t agree with you about Labour’s aims here, though I do take the point in your last paragraph. Labour may well be in a “lose-lose” situation. As I posted upthread re Henry McLeish’s article on Saturday last, I believe that Labour are even more desperate to chain us to the Union until 2020 to try to save their bacon in the next UKGE. (Boundary changes and all that.) Rather than imaginative and forward-looking, they will remain cynical and self-serving to the very end, I fear.

    195. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Onwards,

      A further thought. I’ve actually pondered something similar to you but about the (English) Tories. It could save them a lot of easily-avoidable aggravation and legalistic difficulty over Brexit to “cast Scotland adrift”. Many of them would secretly be very glad to see the back of us, I’m sure! (I even wonder if that’s one of Nicola’s contingency plans.)

      It would give the Ruth Davidson Party something of a headache, of course. That would probably put the kibosh on the whole idea. Though they have been able to do complete U-turns over Brexit, as we have just observed, so what’s another? =laugh= I’m sure Buffalo Gal and Prof Two-Jobs could be found suitable safe Tory seats down south, if they wanted.

      I know, I know, probably another impossible dream like the Labour one, but still…

    196. Betty Boop says:

      Nothing much to say about the EU/Brexit that hasn’t been covered already in this thread. I’m not sure how much the Brexit vote in itself will affect an indy vote, but, as mentioned above, the incompetence being displayed by WM may well be of more significance.

      Anyways, Glasgow Green – Great to see so many Wings folks and apologies to those I didn’t catch, eg Kininvie, Hoss and bro, Alan, Dave McEwan Hill, Indigo and, undoubtedly, quite a few others.

      It has been interesting reading some comments about the speeches because, understandably, we were so busy at the WOS “tent village” from the off that we neither heard nor saw much beyond the rows of faces at the stall! Our passport “scribe”(absolute heroine)was stuck on her chair for hours!

      Despite the afternoon rain, it was a good day with humour and patience aplenty.

    197. Betty Boop says:

      @ Robert J. Sutherland, 2:23am

      Re Davidson – I can’t imagine her being adopted by a Tory branch as a candidate. If an English constituency is minded to vote Tory, I’m sure they’ll have plenty of homegrown nominees without importing someone from the Scottish outpost. I don’t think she has the “right” pedigree.

    198. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      BettyB,

      You could be right. Post-Brexit down there they aren’t too keen on foreign immigrants, after all!

      But one can but dream…

    199. Onwards says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      From what I gather, there is majority support in England for a single English parliament, but not for dividing England internally into devolved regions. Although many people already regard Westminster as the English parliament in reality.

      A confederation is generally between sovereign nation states, and is what I think would have been the outcome if Scotland had gained independence in 2014.. as a way of retaining common links.

      A federal UK set up along national lines would be unequal politically, but could be justifiable as showing respect for the smaller nations that otherwise have little influence.

      Labour believes in ‘pooling and sharing’, so there is no good reason a federal model wouldn’t keep that, as a way of preserving the union.

      It would be “too little, too late” for myself and many other independence supporters, but I do think it would be a vote winner for them, and could attract many voters back to Labour in Scotland and England.

    200. Onwards says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      19 September, 2016 at 2:23 am

      A further thought. I’ve actually pondered something similar to you but about the (English) Tories. It could save them a lot of easily-avoidable aggravation and legalistic difficulty over Brexit to “cast Scotland adrift”. Many of them would secretly be very glad to see the back of us, I’m sure!..
      ————-

      The threat to the Tories is federalism leading quickly to independence, and losing control over Scotland completely.

      Of course, it could be an even bigger threat to the SNP and kill off the desire for independence if enough people were happy with it. No-one knows how it would turn out.

      Chances are it is being held in reserve as a “Vow 2” option in a second referendum.. It could be too late by then though.

    201. Petra says:

      I went to Glasgow Green yesterday, parked my car and walked through p*assing rain waving my saltire like a maniac. My (manic) visit, with my husband, lasted for around 10 (bl**dy) minutes and then I received a call to get home and attend to an elderly, blind relative who had fallen and was in A&E. Great not! But not a totally unexpected or unusual event for me, at the weekend, in relation to relatives and / or clients.

      Well I went home of course (relative OK thank God), but the day out was ruined. My lasting memory of Glasgow Green was of around 4000 people attending the event. Lots and lots of flags (no placards stating anything at all …. such as bias and lies) and a Canadian crew filming the event. No one else such as BBC filming of course (Check out Canadian – Scottish Independence – for news).

      My daughter and her many friends / relatives (all organisers by profession – legal, education, NHS etc) who stayed on and braved the rain were not ONE bit impressed with the event.

      Badly laid out = the speakers / bands section was on the periphery instead of being right in the middle of all tent like structures including Wings. The whatever you want to call it, tent, was FAR too small to accommodate a decent musical group and the groups who played were totally uninspiring. The gaps between speakers and musical groups speaking / performing was abysmal with everyone hanging around being bored to death. Then of course many people left due to the rain as others were arriving. The latter no doubt not hanging around because numbers were reduced and organisation of speakers / groups was let’s say not great or even good at all.

      More than anything we had the ‘Hope over Fear’ get together in Glasgow the day before (Saturday) and many excellent speakers such as Alex Salmond, Jeanne Freeman, Mhairi Black etc were in Glasgow yesterday: But not at the Glasgow Green event. Tommy Sheppard, Robin MacAlpine and WGG, seemingly made excellent speeches at the Glasgow Green venue, in the hellish wee tent, but that was it.

      We REALLY need to get our act together folks if we want to win the next Referendum.

      MORE THAN ANYTHING a combined MASSIVE ‘YES’ effort. Better layout of regular stalls, brilliant groups, such as the Proclaimers, toilet and food facilities of which there seemed to be a total lack of in Glasgow Green – no bins either (Glasgow City Council – Labour – blocking the latter?).

      More than anything we really need someone like Tommy Sheppard to pull this altogether. Why oh why are we so disparate, disorganised and more than anything coming across as being so blooming non- inspiring this year?

      With two years to go let’s sort it out.

      ………

      I posted on this thread and the latter yesterday and neither post showed up (maybe too boring?). Whatever the case, I’m getting really sick of this (spending a great deal of my time putting together posts / data). If it goes on, for whatever reason, I’ll be giving up on here in the very near future.

    202. yesindyref2 says:

      @Onwards
      With a confederation, same as a federation, the problem is the central government – how does it make its decisions? One way would be that the small 3 nations – Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland could outvote the one big one, England, but I don’t see that sitting at all well with England and the English, and who can blame them?

      That’s always the problem, what’s fair for the big isn’t fair and equitable for the smaller, and vice versa. The only way for either would be if England broke down into Regions to make a larger number of smaller entities and, as you say, there’s no enthusiam for that in England, nor was there before. Apart from London, maybe.

      Confederation sounds like a great idea, where any of the states can just say “I’m out”, but I can’t see it working, even if it could happen.

    203. yesindyref2 says:

      Just going to drop this here, about the new way of qualified voting in the EU Council of Ministers – just in case I don’t get around to writing that wordpress article! It came into force in 2014, but there are opt-outs until 2017. Page is a bit confusing though, so I need to do further checking.

      http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/qualified-majority/

      Note this:

      “when the Council votes on a proposal by the Commission or the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, a qualified majority is reached if two conditions are met:

      . 55% of member states vote in favour – in practice this means 16 out of 28
      . the proposal is supported by member states representing at least 65% of the total EU population

      This new procedure is also known as the ‘double majority’ rule.

      also:

      About 80% of all EU legislation is adopted with this procedure.

      It no longer goes on under the old rule where each member state representative had a certain number of votes, as set out in the EU treaties (e.g. France, Germany, Italy, United Kingdom: 29 votes each, Denmark 7). This puts the lie to the Unionist “Little Scotland will have no power”.

    204. Liz g says:

      My view on the “let’s look impartial and say uncomfortable things about Better Together”Marr programme.
      Maybe because I saw it in the wee small hours I might have my tin foil hat on BUT as I see it, it’s agenda is.
      The establishment wants time,time to come up with and sell Scotland a NEW modern fantastic Union.
      Which of course will be to the benefit of everyone on this Island.
      We (Scotland) will have it within our gift to be egalitarian and make sure all Four nation’s are taken care of in one fail swoop.
      All the while retaining not only our autonomy but the acknowledgement of being the people who looked out for everyone’s interests.
      Just sign here at the bottom of the all new & Forever ACT OF UNION the one that everyone likes and we can all be friends again.
      The BBC will be nice.
      The old Queen will be “purringly” happy (who in their right mind wouldn’t want that)
      The Americans will think our relationship is even more special now that we have things written down.
      It will be so good that we won’t even need to read the small print,as a whole load of academics will have dun it for us.
      And they were so impressed they told the news people all about it.

      So even if I thought… (like everyone else I was with)

      That Robert McAlpines speech about the next referendum was not reflecting where we are at this point in time and was way off with his view of when we should try again,and do understand that he probably knows more about these things than I do and so am obliged to give his view’s serious consideration……

      After watching that programme,I am taking the view that it was obvious the establishment want and therefore need time.
      Put together with all the background chatter of Federalism/Confederation/British Bill of Rights/saving the Labour Party is necessary for democracy to triumph and an ACTUAL New Act of the Union ect…..(my bet for the length of time it takes for Robert Peffers to take it apart by the way is 15.4 min)…
      It seems… to me anyway…. they are desperate for some time.
      They do at least recognise that thing’s can’t stay as they are,but they… and we… also know that they can’t,for all sorts of reasons afford to lose us.
      So a same but different arrangement is required.
      Question is will they get enough time to convince enough of us Scot’s to go for the new Union.
      Well not if I have anything to say about it…

    205. Luigi says:

      Onwards says:

      19 September, 2016 at 1:31 am

      As things stand, Scotland has become a liability for Labour at general elections instead of an asset. The Tories won’t give up their tactic of scaring English voters with visions of a Labour government dependent on the SNP.

      Indeed. And Labour will have no choice but to respond and up their anti-Scottish rhetoric to try and reassure all those voters they lost to UKIP. Doomed north and south of the border. Labour is locked in a death spiral and I can’t see the remotest chance of escape.

    206. Ken500 says:

      Andrew Marr and Andrew Neil. The two greedy arrogant despicable people would sell their souls if they had one, to rip off the taxpayers money. The voice of avarice greed. The biased non impartial Westminster controlled BBC. £3/4Billion for that nonsense.

      Forget this nonsense. Cut to the chase. Just bring on the next Referendum, and the one after that if necessary. If you don’t succeed try, try and try again. Scotland is a democracy. The people can vote for what they want. Have as many Referendum as they want.

      Vote SNP/SNP May 2017. Give a clear message.

    207. Ken500 says:

      Thanks to everyone who attended the rallies for the millions that couldn’t manage. Logistics and demographics. Thanks x a millions.

    208. Dorothy Devine says:

      Anyone read the Herald , exhorting the FM to drop indyref2 ?

      They claim “senior SNP insiders” unnamed of course but probably Mr Sillars! – are suggesting waiting until after 2020.

      They name dear of Muddle-not-a-Fiddle McLeish as some sort of serious source.

      2020 is too far away for me – I like 2018 ,just like Mr Salmond.

    209. skintybroko says:

      Petra please don’t give up on this site, i enjoy reading your contributions. Agree that there needs to be a wider communication of events etc but there seems to be as many factions in the Yes movement as there are in the Labour party – who takes the helm in organising these events? There will always be someones nose out of joint – am all for independence and that has to be the focus not arguing about what we do when we get there, the SNP are more than competent to keep Scotland running until these things can be figured out after independence. As someone else mentioned earlier self government is the norm for any country, being governed by a corrupt and incompetent neighbour isn’t.

      Not sure what the answer is to galvanise the YES groups into one cohesive unit but hopefully someone will have the answer and the means of communicating it to the wider population.

    210. JLT says:

      The Unhappy 11%

      It’s a strange one indeed, but if push came to shove, then I believe the majority of that 11% would vote for Scottish Independence. The reasoning to them would be, that in a much fairer and more democratic Scotland, they would have the right to campaign for taking Scotland back out of the EU once Scotland was independent.

      If continually stuck to Westminster, the question has to be asked to them, ‘Now that we are more or less out of the EU, are you stating that you are happy with the status quo between England and Scotland? Do you wish Westminster to continue to treat Scotland as a 2nd Class nation? Are you now saying that you don’t want Scotland to be an equal and democratic nation that is just like every other country in the world instead of being treated like a greater region of England?’

      If they say, ‘No’ …then they have to bite the bullet on the EU. It’s the same with the 28% as pointed out by Stuart. In other words, you can’t have your cake and eat it. You can’t have both.

      In other words …choose. Choose between Scotland having the democratic right to choose its own destiny, or continue for the foreseeable future in having Scotland look like a feudal region of Westminster and England …which by the way …will only get worse for the people of Scotland.

      They might not be able to see that question at the moment, but when Article 50 is finally invoked and the crap hits the fan, they are going to realise is that they still have a choice to make should a 2nd Referendum take place, no matter what they believe they have chosen at this point in time.

      And I believe for most of them, if the chance of Scotland becoming independent is there …really there!! The once in a golden moment never to be repeated …then I believe half of that 39% will grab it, knowing what it truly means …despite their loathing of the EU.

      I believe they will choose independence.

    211. Brian McHugh says:

      Voting to gain power/self determination must be the priority… only then, will we have the power to decide on our position in Europe and the world. At the moment, we have no say.

      Independence first, then all elase will follow after.

    212. scottieDog says:

      @yesindyref2
      Sorry to be brutal here but if you have ‘a plan to reduce the deficit’ then you simply don’t understand macro economics.
      Running a gov surplus requires a deficit from the rest of the economy.
      This idea of ‘sound’ finance – comparing the economy to a household resulted in the biggest private debt bubble in history.
      It also tripled the national debt.

      Sadly Europe is gripped by these economic fallacies.
      Iceland is not buying into it and is prospering

    213. Ken500 says:

      £Billions wasted on HE2, Hinkley nuclear plant and Trident etc. Welfare benefits cut back. People are sanctioned and starved. Multimillionaires tax evade.

      The SNP has to be in charge of any Referendum. They have the members, funding and the organisational skills. No naive, inexperienced people at the helm.

    214. Xaracen says:

      @Sunnive, 11.08pm;

      We are different countries, with different political cultures and different economic potential and it is self-defeating and a travesty of democracy to be shackled together with only one country calling all the shots for all of them.

      There, reinforced that for you. 😀

    215. Smallaxe says:

      Nana: I think my first post to you got lost.explain later!

      Thanks for your links.

      Peace Always

    216. paul says:

      @scottieDog

      That point cannot be made enough.

      Running counter-cyclic deficits is balancing the books.

      Government spending/investment counters the household and commercial sectors desires to save (that includes: saving, deferring spending/investment, reducing debt).

      I am one of the 11% because the EU,as is,is completely wedded to this orthodoxy and hence once a country within it falls into recession, it can never get out.

      The last thing a newly formed nation trying to find it’s feet is to have them nailed to the floor by these orthodoxies.

    217. Macart says:

      @Petra

      Probably server issues Petra. Had a post or two disappear into the aether myself over the period. This site has a huge amount of traffic and there isn’t a site on the planet that doesn’t have such issues. Frustrating, but its not aimed at anybody.

      As for boring? 😀

      You’re anything but that and I look forward to reading your posts.

      The weekend overall I’d say was quite successful between the two days and two events and if nothing else showed the appetite was there in abundance. Until such times as a coordinated and official campaign is begun, with a true central hub, then events are going to lack that necessary coordination and polish.

      A large scale, task dedicated background team, with resources to hand, who organize and put together events and venues will make a huge difference to big projects.

      What this weekend past has shown is that grassroots is alive and well. It also makes liars of the unionist press and politician’s claim of a mysterious SNP dominated central control. This weekend also threw into contrast the difference between the two camps. On the one there was a select multi millionaire betternothigither charity auction, on the other, thousands of ordinary people with a good cause, but then we kinda knew that was always the case anyway. 🙂

      Silver lining? The YES movement is alive and well. The band has had a few outings in the big toon recently, all good practice runs and when the starting cannon is fired on any new indyref and the machinery has been properly dusted off and well oiled?

      The opposition have a problem on their hands. 😉

    218. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Mornin’ Nana. Some belters in there inluding the FMs.

      Good mix. 🙂

    219. Proud Cybernat says:

      “…the simple fundamental truth that the big decisions about Scotland – including the decision about our EU membership – should be taken by those who live and work here.” – Nicola Sturgeon

      the simple fundamental truth that the big decisions about Scotland – including the decision about our EU membership – should be taken by those who permanently live and pay work taxes here.

      Fixed that for you, Nicola.

    220. Effijy says:

      Following on from my earlier link to the BBC’s £50,000 fine for breaking as many moral codes as it could in enforcing
      its Biased Propaganda Programmes.

      As my wife, against my better wishes still pays for the crime that is the BBC License fee, my household, like so many other innocent victims, are the ones who have actually
      paid this fine.

      The can now continue to act in the same unaccountable manner and if the fines keep rolling in, we can pay for their £150,000 per annum Head of Media Communications Officer, and the fines.

      As it stands, they will still act the same way and send out the “No problem here mate. You are wrong” letters.

      RE- Indy 2, we do know that the majority of No’s are elderly. We know that 2021 was the optimum date when the
      oldest of the Scaremongered pensioners may not be with us.

      I’d like to see Indy Ref 2 as close to that date as possible, but if Article 50 is invoked in 2017, we must act before the 2 year negation period elapses and we are
      dragged out of the EU against our wishes.

      Please recognise that we lost the Tory Prime Minister we didn’t want, as he could not lead the country through Brexit, and now we have a 2nd Prime Minister that Scotland never voted for, who again campaigned against Brexit, but who will take the job anyway.

      The UK will have next to no trade agreements, unemployment and the economy will hit the buffers for another decade, and we will have a share of the £Billions it will cost for the army of legal experts trying to negotiate Brexit.

      May will become so unpopular that Boris will be Scotland’s next Prime Minister in 2020. That’s Boris who is on record as being openly Anti-Scottish and who thinks a Pound Spend in Croyden is a Pound better spent than in Scotland.

      He could put forward a Bill to remove the vote from Scotland as it never makes a blind bit of difference to
      the result our larger English electorate want anyway.

      A source close to Boris has revealed that he might need to clear Glasgow to provide more grazing land for sheep, they already have a working model of how this operates at Westminster.

      Scottish Kids can have schooling up until they are 12,if they have an I.Q. of 150 plus, and the retirement age will be 70, for those with private health care provisions.

    221. paul says:

      I would add that this only applies to a currency issuing entity.

      The eurozone project removes the currency issuing power from members but refuses to implement a balancing fiscal mechanism over the area.

      The current disaster in mainland europe was predicted very clearly by wynne godley back in 1992

      Maastricht and All That

    222. gordoz says:

      Stay on board Petra. There wont be anything deliberate against you going on I’m sure.

      I resign myself to largely read the main news element post of Stu on wings and the twitter info.

      Comments quality not what it used to be with a lot of trolls being accommodated for way roo long.

      Don’t get yourself down with the argy bargy and yoonies
      Just take a break and read in future.
      It works for me.
      But stay on board.

    223. Smallaxe says:

      Nana:are you still there,(I’m Whispering)so I hope you can hear me!

      I spent the whole day yesterday hiding from your Hubby, I thought he might be jealous about our little meetings in the
      mornings so I went to the G.Green disguised as a Hula dancer just in case he knew what I looked like.Very exhausting.

      Peace Always x

    224. Smallaxe says:

      Petra:

      I have not read the whole thread yet but if it’s disappearing
      posts that’s the problem, I lost my first one to Nana this
      morning and a long one the other day.Sorry if I’ve got it
      wrong,as I said I haven’t read all, I started looking at the
      thread from the bottom up.

      Peace Always

    225. Tam Jardine says:

      Petra

      Your analysis is less forgiving than mine. There were issues- certainly the position of the stage was not good and there was a lack of basic facilities. And it wasn’t advertised well or ran to any kind of public profile. Apart from that the organisation was excellent! To see the machine still working is heartening and to meet other people in the flesh who want our country to be free of Westminster and running our own affairs makes me happy.

      I think I came away happier because I thought the attendance was good under the circumstances (during this waiting period) and after all the shit that has been rained down on Yes supporters over the last 4 years.

      Please don’t give up with the site- I always enjoy and learn from your posts on here. It is frustrating losing posts- I now Select All and then copy so that if it disappears I can paste it. Nothing worse on here than losing that time when a post goes.

      Anyway- enjoy your week and don’t lose heart.

    226. yesindyref2 says:

      @scottieDog
      I think you’re missing the point. It’s the enforcement arm of the SGP require a plan for reducing the deficit from the member state that goes over the 3% annual deficit objective of the SGP, they call it the MTO – Medium to Long-Term Objective. As long as there’s an acceptable one in place, they go away happy, delighted with themselves.

      Scotland already having one in place, or workng on one, counters the Unionists cry of “Scotland’s deficit of 10% is too high to join / rejoin / stay in the EU”.

      Whether such a plan is mumbo-jumbo or not is irrelevant!

    227. paul says:

      @yesindyref2

      Whether or not it is mumbo jumbo is very important.

      A deficit should be as large as necessary to sustain an economy

      The 3% rule is completely arbitrary and was dreamt up by francois mitterand one afternoon.

      It is mumbo jumbo but it is also orthodoxy.

    228. Smallaxe says:

      JLT:

      Good to meet you yesterday,hope you caught your train home,maybe get some more time to talk on another occasion.Nice
      meeting you.

      Peace Always

    229. Ghillie says:

      Two years ago, almost to this very moment, my two sons, a girlfriend and I made our way to Holyrood. It was just where we wanted to be. And what a day it was.

      As the results were coming in, I said, come what may, we march to Holyrood. Either we will be celebrating like never before or we keep fighting for our Independence like never before.

      We are still fighting for Scotland’s Independence.

      Each in our own way. Quietly for now, but steadfastly always doing whatever we can. Mostly talking to folk. Always have done. Always will.

      Greatly appreciated Nicola Sturgeon’s latest statements. Chime with me. As do Rev Stu’s. And many comments here = )

      We are always on our Road to Independence.

      Our journey is maturing, the colours becoming brighter, clearer, and the nuances ever more subtle and developed.

      The discussions here guide me. Thank you = )

    230. paul says:

      Guy Abeille who was a project manager in the French Ministry of Finance in 1981 reported:

      “We imagined the 3% figure in less than an hour, it was a ‘back of an envelope’ calculation, without any theoretical reflection … Mitterrand wanted us to quickly provide him with an easy rule, which sounded economic, with which he could confront the ministers who marched into his office asking for more money … We needed something simple … 3%? It was a good figure, a figure that has stood the test of time, it was reminiscent of the Trinity … Mitterand wanted a standard, we gave it to him. We did not think it would endure beyond 1981 … [the] … Minister of Finance, who was the first to talk about the deficit as a percentage … 100 billion francs was huge … he preferred to speak of 2.6% … ”

      And thus a ruinous orthodoxy was founded.

    231. Nana says:

      @Smallaxe

      There was me thinking you were lying in after a hectic day yesterday. I’m hearing you were so popular the planners may be considering a meet Smallaxe event for the next outing. Could be a very lucrative fundraiser.

      I wondered why my old man was so happy last evening, after seeing you with all the ladies I think he felt there is nothing to worry about.

      Seriously though he was sorry not to have met you.

    232. Nana says:

      Good morning Macart. I try to give a mixed roundup of links, if I find them interesting I figure others might also.

      @Petra Please do not leave the site, I would miss you and your informative posts. It is easy to get discouraged so the best thing to do when you are feeling down is to take a break.

    233. Ken500 says:

      The Tory/Unionists are going after the pensioners. Might change the dynamics. Multimillionaires going after the vulnerable.

      Britain the most unequal, unfair place in the world.

    234. We’ve just stumbled on a great idea.

      SCALP. Scottish Conservative And Labour Party

    235. Ken500 says:

      Scotland’s ‘Deficit’ is caused by Westminster/Unionists policy. It could be wiped out overnight. Scotland is also not allowed to borrow but pays off Westminster/Unionist debts. A double whammy.

      Scotland has been in surplus since 1928 and before. It will only been since the SNP has been in Holyrood that separate minimal Scottish Accounts have been openly published not hidden by the UK Treasury. Democracy only came to Scotland in 2000. (Still limited) outvoted at Westminster 10 to 1.

    236. Robert Peffers says:

      @Mike says: 19 September, 2016 at 12:47 am:

      ” … And if I were to tell you I’m over 55 myself would that put it into a better perspective for you?”

      Not in the slightest, Mike. The point I make is that you are wrongly ascribing the unionism of that large section of Scots voters to nothing other than their age. That is a totally illogical way of thinking.

      First of all these voters did not become unionists because of their age but because of their political leanings formed before Scottish independence became much more acceptable to the general Scottish public. I come from an age group who were considered to be rather odd in the head for advocating Scottish independence. We were treated as a lunatic fringe who at best were at best better to be just ignored and at worst laughed at.

      No one really treated us as a serious political threat to the established political order in Scotland. Bear in mind this was an age when Arthur Donaldson’s home was raided by Scottish police on no more evidence than an un-named person walking into an MI5 office and telling them he was a NAZI sympathiser. Now bear in mind that the King of England was forced to abdicate not because he wanted to marry a divorcee but because of his openly NAZI leanings.

      Then there was the hereditary peer Oswald Mosely who openly headed, “The British Union of Fascists”, (a Fascist political party in the United Kingdom formed in 1932).

      Donaldson was arrested and imprisoned at Kilmarnock before being moved to Barlinnie. Yet not a single bit of evidence has ever been produced by MI5 and no charges were ever brought against Donaldson. Yet still today there are unionists claiming the SNP are NAZIs.

      The point is these older people are the actual politicians, councillors, MSPs, MPs and MEP, party members, supporters and their close friends and families. That is the reality. They are anti-independence because they are The Establishment – not because they were born in any particular era.

      ” … I’m trying to highlight a reality here.”

      No you are not.

      ” … A reality that’s says the largest age group of voters in Scotland is the over 60s”

      Indeed so but your error is ascribing their age alone as the reason they are anti-independence. Their age is actually irrelevant.

      ” .. And if we ignore or fail to target them specifically then we are wasting our time with a second indyref.”

      And if you continue to believe that simply by belonging to a certain age group you are going to do other than make that age group far other than far more aggressively anti-independence then you are not just fooling yourself but being an agent of the establishment.

      ” … The No camp were quick to target them with scaremongering over their pensions. I believe that was what cost us the referendum.”

      Then again I say you are barking up the wrong tree.

      ” … FFS this isn’t me having a go at pensioners.”

      That’s what you say but consider how the pensioners will view it.

      ” … I want them on our side!”

      Oh! I do not doubt that, Mike. The point is that you’re views, and how you express them, will have exactly the opposite effect to what you want to do.

      If such as me, an independence activist since a boy in the mid-1940s, takes your viewpoint as an attack upon we older pensioners – what do you imagine will be the reactions of those who are, in spite of their age, the actual members of the Establishment?

      Do you imagine that all the former Labour, Tory and LibDem politicians, their families and their supporters just vanished on the SNP gaining strength?

      What you describe is not the pensioners, per se, it is the actual Establishment members in Scotland. They did not go away. For example Alex Rowley is the son of a father who was Labour party councillor in Fife.

      He has a whole following in Fife and here in Kelty, his home village, he has family, friends and in-laws who, along with other long established Labour dynasties will never be inclined to support independence. Multiply that with every other constituency in Scotland and you just might get the thing right in your mind.

      It has nothing to do with age, other than that is when the Unionist parties held sway in Scotland.

      It is why the Labour party imagines it was wrongly deposed and has the proprietary right to be the government in Scotland.

      I’ll make it even more simple for you. These people are not anti-independence because they are Pensioners but because they are what remains of the still existing unionists in Scotland.

      There will indeed be a relatively small proportion of them that are floating voters but, in the main, they are the actual Unionists and the reason they are older is because the main movement in Scotland has been a shift by younger people towards the SNP and independence over the years.

    237. Ken500 says:

      Could some personal exchanges be off Topic. To keep the site traffic down.

    238. Ken500 says:

      The Tory/Unionists are going after the pensioners. That will change the dynamics. Multimillionaires targeting the vulnerable.

    239. Dr Jim says:

      I wont let them beat me into submission just because they think they can, BBC Newspapers Politicians Unionists So called “Business people” So Called “Foreign Dignitaries” Sectarian organisations and just plain Gutless Fearties
      and especially the shouty aggressive lot

      If, as looks likely it’s going to be called we need every man woman and child of any and all ability with anything they can contribute (some are more able than others) to this campaign

      They will churn out the lies and deceit once again to fatigue us and put our heads down to win what they want which is the continuing domination of our country, we have to stop them

      We’re all we’ve got

      The FM has no interest in losing this one so I see a different approach coming from the style Alex took
      Maybe this time our side will do the attacking for a change
      We have 56 MPs are the BBC going to try and say only Mundell and Murray were available
      Oh, and Carmichael of course, see nearly forgot about him the Liar in Chief

    240. Smallaxe says:

      Nana:

      Same here, I was hoping to meet your husband but unfortunately
      it didn’t transpire,you will see my account of yesterday on O/T.

      Peace and Love as Always

    241. JLT says:

      @Smallaxe

      Hi mate. Was very pleased to meet you too! It was just a pity that it was that time of day that I had to return home. However, the 5 odd minutes we did get were worth it. Hopefully, we can have a great old blether the next time we meet.

      On a separate note; hello to all those Wingers out there who admitted to some us yesterday that they feel too awkward to post. First of all, it was an absolute pleasure speaking to you all. As said, don’t be afraid to post. Just follow the flow of the other posts, and if you can, just post a small paragraph on how you feel about the topic of discussion. Do this over a few days with other topics, and before you know it, one paragraph becomes two, and you’re writing skills will improve. Honestly …go for it …post a paragraph. No one is going to jump on you for it. The more voices that are heard; the greater the argument that the people of Scotland want to govern themselves. Do post! You’ll feel a hell of a lot better for it rather than just wishing that you had.

      Go for it!!

    242. Scott says:

      Toxic Tories

      During the Brexit debate I came across this from our Tank Commander.

      The Scottish Conservative leader said: “I need to pick up on something Andrea said because I can’t let it stand that you tell a blatant untruth in the middle of the debate two days before we vote.

      I would like our FM to quote this to Ruthie who was quite ready to tell a blatant untruth in our Parliament and has not corrected it yet.

    243. Ken500 says:

      Alex Rowley supports Independence but is a member of a Party that doesn’t. He probably votes for it. Along with many of the Labour brigade. Twa faced.

      The ‘popular?’ Edward Prince of Wales was forced out by an Archbishop and his sister in law (the Queen mother) who wanted the Crown for herself. Frozen out. Baldwin had no choice. ‘The divine right to rule’ enforced by a ‘Protestant’ church. The Church of England. According to Historical documents and recording. The Queen would have eventually come to succession much later. When Edward VIl died. 1985? The Royals would have been private and less privileged for much longer. Not built up such a pile of tax evaded money. The richest ‘greedy’ self serving people in the world.

    244. Sunniva says:

      Nana. Msm agenda to undermine hope. Undermining hope was (theologically speaking) the work of the devil, who doesn’t just mock god, he mocks humankind. Nope. Never manage it. Useless. Pointless. Crap. ‘Too wee, too poor, too stupid’. Fail. Nihilism and negativity are the devil’s work. Hope is not the same as optimism. Hope is the belief in something because it is good in itself.

    245. galamcennalath says:

      They (all forces ranged against Scottish democracy) really really don’t want IndyRef2.

      There is good chance they will lose. Thus much talk of … There shouldn’t be one, there can’t be one, you don’t need one … And the latest, this isn’t the right time.

      As several posts above say, they are playing for time.

      I think in both Brexit and IndyRef2 they hope that there will be some change appear. And in both that may be changes in opinion. The SNP/SG cannot call a referendum which fails.

      What the Unionists need to take on board is that everything they don’t like is a direct reaction to their own behaviour. They need to take responsibility for their actions.

      A Brexit which is not to Scottish voters’ tastes would lead to IndyRef2. It was not a warning, it was a solemn promise!

    246. Flower of Scotland says:

      I had a great time yesterday. Hard getting anywhere near the “Wings” stall, but met Ronnie, Paula (no red shoes on!) and saw X Sticks.

      I got some lovely Vile Cybernat coasters and key rings made by Donna.

      On the way back to the car park I met a family with Wings balloons and a flag ( like mine) and all sorts of goodies. So great to see people that know Wings.

    247. Flower of Scotland says:

      We are acting like an Independent Country and I think we should ignore and just laugh at Unionists who say that “we can’t do this or that without permission from Westminster”

      The Union was between two Kingdoms and was supposed to be equal.

      If you just laugh at these Unionists, they hate it more than arguing!

    248. Mosstrooper says:

      Excellent point Robert and one I have tried to make to others. The NAZI slur against Arthur Donaldson was and still is an invention of the British establishment used in an attempt to discredit the Independence movement. When Dounreay was being built and commissioned I applied for a job in my capacity as a scientific instrument maker. At the interview out of the blue, I was asked if I was a member of the Union of Fascists to which I said no. I was then asked if I was a member of a political party I said yes, as I had joined the Scottish National Congress the year before ( later amalgamated with the SNP.) I didn’t get the job. This was in the late 1950’s and the person who asked the political questions took no other part in the interview apart from these two questions. I have often wondered in what capacity this person operated as he asked nothing about my engineering abilities.
      We are still feeling the effects of the school classroom dominated by the world map with all the pink coloured countries and the photograph of his/ her Imperial Majesty on the wall.

    249. Macart says:

      @galamcennalath

      Heh, those shouting the loudest, including the Times, tend to forget that ‘need’ and ‘events’ dictate what is necessary and when.

      The public should have had their fill of the media and ‘entitle’ politicians dictating what we need and when. I mean, under their gudidance, it’s all worked out so well for everyone. 😉

    250. Valerie says:

      @Petra

      Hope you don’t leave, but you no doubt need a break. I’m on a break just now, and deliberately getting on with other things.

    251. Vambomarbeley says:

      @petra
      Well said.
      Glasgow Green is too out of the way. You will only get the converted.
      Yesterday. You could not see the stalls properly. Too many conflicting sounds. At times the bikes were drowning out the speakers.
      What you need is George square. Then you have a chance of attracting people going about their business but popping over for a deko.
      Can a alternative web cam be set up at George square for these events. Or use s drone. Must be some ones grand wain can do it.
      Yesterday. Many were oblivious to the Doulton fountain. Google it.
      On top is Victoria slightly larger than she was in life.
      Underneath she is supported by three soldiers. Scottish, Welch, English and a sailor.
      Underneath that is four arches. Each with a man and a woman.
      The represent South Africa, Canada, Australia and India.
      The native woman have nipples depicted. The white woman not
      This fountain is highly symbolic and is a beacon in Scotland’s struggle to shake of the shackles of 1707.
      Take the children and grand children. Show them and explain it.
      Victoria is on STV at the moment. So it’s current in people’s minds.
      I was fortunate. I was fed Scottish history at primary school. The green book. Wonderfull picture of Bruce chibbing de Boen. Put me in the independence trail age 7.

    252. Proud Cybernat says:

      “…we should ignore and just laugh at Unionists who say that “we can’t do this or that without permission from Westminster”

      And ask them, “As a grown adult living your own life, do you still do as your mammy tells yae?”

    253. Grouse Beater says:

      The only reason England holds onto to Scotland is the oil, and the fact that without Scotland, England would be a very small country indeed.

      English politicians have always loathed Scots as fellow MPs. Anybody who denies an inbred animosity is deluding themselves.

      “After the Treaty signing, there was the matter of the first UK parliament sitting, on October 23rd, 1707, and the observations made by Sir John Clerk on the lot of the Scottish peers and commoners are instructive”:

      “To find themselves obscure and unhonoured in the crowd of English society and the unfamiliar intrigues of English politics, where they were despised for their poverty, ridiculed for their speech, and ignored in spite of the votes by the ministers and government.”

    254. heedtracker says:

      Just follow the flow of the other posts, and if you can, just post a small paragraph on how you feel about the topic of discussion.

      Great advice. Say what you think! From the big Scottish issues, to the even bigger Scottish issues, like how I no longer buy Morrison’s union jacked box filled doughnuts for breaktime. After the weekend BBC explosion of BBC union jack hysterics at the tennis, that’s more than enough union jacks for a while. Ew. Also enough union jackery, BBC zoom in on Fluffie Mundell jumping about like the complete and utter f wit he really is, at the tennis. Very Ew.

      Other news, rancid The Graun actually mentions its Scottish region this week, in whatever this mess is meant to be, via Patrick Wintour Diplomatic editor, no less.

      Its fun how UKOK hackdom gives itself important sounding titles too. “Super clever, very wise, influential and important Libby Carrell” will be back next week, to give us all a good spanking.

      http://archive.is/GBRrg

    255. Grouse Beater says:

      More here: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-9QH

      Coming soon on Grouse Beater Blog, exclusive extracts from the shocking new unauthorised biography: “I was Rowling’s Brother”, by David Torrance.

    256. Ken500 says:

      The majority had a good time at the Rally the first of many. What’s not to like? The next Indy2 Campaign is just starting. Once it is gets geared up everyone will be out campaigning. All over.

      May 2017 SNP/SNP for better management and Independence. The next immediate challenge.

    257. Mac says:

      It is alleged that Scots do not appreciate being told what to do by others and have a clear mind which has allowed Scots to contribute so much to the history of the last 200 years.

      Scots people are renowned the world over for our openness, generosity, hospitality and having the capacity to think for ourselves yet all of this positivity fades into the background when offered an opportunity to make a simple choice?

      For me the saddest part in all of this is the way millions of Scots have either given up hope or are blinded by years of indoctrination.

      Independence is the only logical option!

    258. orri says:

      The problem with this poll is it actually tells you nothing.

      There’s no nuances about how close a relationship you can have with the EU. Nor how much the decision to vote No the last time was based on placing that desire above independence.

      Put it this way some of the 11% might see an independent Scotland as more important than not being in the EU, although they’d certainly be forgiven for voting Yes in the hopes that they might get what they really want. At the same time there’s going to be some in the UK+EU combo who place being in the EU first.

      Remember the hidden gem in the farcical tory biased Davidson / Sturgeon Poll. There’s far more who voted No last time reconsidering their vote post Brexit than those who voted Yes.

    259. heedtracker says:

      Grouse Beater says:
      19 September, 2016 at 11:24 am
      More here: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-9QH

      Another terrific post GB. Scottish history is one of the greatest sources of British lies and misinformation going. Was life for Scots made any better in the coming Victorian industrial revolution? Scottish haha historians dont even like dividing up the periods or the people.

      Fast forward 2016, and the more things change, as UKOK freakouts go round Scotland shouting at us, “NO more Referendums for you silly sweaties!”

      Theresa May’s 27-strong cabinet reflects the diversity of modern UKOK land, 20 male millionaires, 7 female millionaires.

      Wonder what all those rich lads and lassies are doing in the UKOK Cabinet of millionaires? Just one of Crash Gordon’s many great socialist legacies.

    260. Artyhetty says:

      Re; Petra

      Stay with us and contribute to the way forward for Scotland’s independence Petra. We will need all the support we can get.
      Regards comments disappearing, it can happen, but if you make sure to copy what you write and paste into an email to yourself, you can keep it to repost if it doesn’t appear first time.

      By last night I was feeling a tad glum, and muttering to myself negative stuff about Scotland’s independence. Reading WoS and other sites, blogs is crucial to keeping the spirits up and momentum. All hands on deck for the next referendum.

      My view is that we need short, sharp facts, and a fairly quick lead up to a vote, along with some consultation on who can vote. Should they have to be resident in Scotland at least 6 months of the year, tax code etc?

      I don’t know, just chucking that one out there. Do we just have a free for all vote? Anyone with an address in Scotland for example? Like last time? Anyone born in Scotland? Hmmm.
      As it is a referendum not an election, could it be that we need to discuss that and the Scotgov should be thinking about that aspect of how to make it fair to the people who live in Scotland and who bring up their children here if they have them.

      Just an idea, might be irrelevant.

      Then again, pretty much everyone of my neighbours’ grown up kids have moved to London to live, leaving mummy and daddy to vote no in their nice comfy, well off retirement.

    261. yesindyref2 says:

      @paul (same for ScottieDog)
      It took me a few months before I realised Osborne with his austerity and “plan for a surplus”, was as daft as a brush, and that it wasn’t good for the economy. “Shrink the state” and shrink the economy, directly and indirectly with all that expenditure lost all around and the knock-on effect of that spending as other spending gets lost. I was for keeping up the borrowing, maybe just having a steady controlled reduction.

      Late 2011 then 2012 I was active on the Guardian, and found Swinney was anti-austerity also, so thought he must be good and sensible, and it gave me confidence in him for the economy of iScotland. Them him and Sturgeon wnated the UK to borrow another £180 billion on top to grow the economy, and I totally supported that.

      I too think it’s stupid, the EU is holding itself back, but the SGP is still currently EU policy, and to be a member Scotland still would have to pay at least lip service to it – just as the UK does, even though it’s got probably a derogation.

    262. Smallaxe says:

      To People reluctant or nervous about posting,several regulars
      have given good advice above.

      May I add that I “lurked” on the sidelines for a long time before getting up enough nerve to post.One or two things that
      made me a tad apprehensive was things that I did not understand,like,Rancid the Graun,Daily Heil and some of the
      Acronyms used.Maybe some kind Wingers could explain these on
      another post,as I must go to a previous appointment today.

      PS. Some self proclaimed Lurker’s were working hard at Wings
      stalls yesterday.”They also serve,who only stand and lurk”
      John Milton and me.:-)

      Peace,love and Lurker’s

    263. Vambomarbeley says:

      I left school at 15 years of age. Not a qualification to my name. I then spent 25 years in the army. I am never 100% sure about my grammar and punctuation. How ever with text language is it really so important any more from the point of commenting on wings.
      So don’t be afraid to post and get your point over.
      I have never seen anyone pull an other commenter up for gramner. If they did I would say that they were being a c**t.

    264. paul says:

      @inyesindyref2

      Which is one of the reasons I think you should sup with a very long spoon regarding the EU.

      One of the advantages of being a currency issuer (UK) over a currency user (Scotland/Eurozone members) is that you can spend that 180bn, you don’t need to borrow it.

      Just employ the ways and means account as we used to.

    265. paul says:

      As we used to till Gideon Osborne came along

    266. ScottieDog says:

      @paul
      “One of the advantages of being a currency issuer (UK) over a currency user (Scotland/Eurozone members) is that you can spend that 180bn, you don’t need to borrow it.”

      You are talking my language Paul!

    267. Lochside says:

      Petra….don’t give up. You put things very succinctly and I agree most times with you. Your last post summed up what I feel about the mess of this weekend’s disorganised ‘events’.

      Why is there no coordination? Is it the old Scottish complaint of dividing in the face of the enemy?…noses out of joint etc.
      The Hope over fear was attended by a few hundred…the last one had no p.a. worth a damn…the Glasgow Green event seemed more focused on merchandising (includin Wings)…and the stage was puny, in the wrong place, and the organisation was woeful.
      Also why was the St. Luke’s event on at the same time?…by the sound of it the plebs were at the Green and the big shots were at St. Lukes.

      Petra keep commentating because like some others I’m fed up of the low standard on the threads now and the trolls that treat it like faceboook. I know this is the beginning of phase two, but at times it feels like groundhog day 2014 without the energy.

    268. paul says:

      @ScottieDog

      I’m glad I do, it helps get rid of all the economic fearmongering bunch of bullshit that surrounds independence.

      Political will is all that really matters.

      Does the government have one to benefit the commonwealth?

      That’s the only question.

    269. ScottieDog says:

      @yesindyref2
      The problem with going along with the SGP compliance is that you then must walk the neoliberal tightrope and basically agree with the ideas that govt surpluses are somehow good.
      They certainly are if your economy is overheating but we are in the opposite situation.

      It’s inescapable that we would require an austerity programme if we are forced to reduce the deficit to levels required by SGP. This is where in my opinion we are over a barrel unless, as effectively a new nation we get dispensation from Brussels – but where is the sovereignty in that??

      As Paul mentions a much easier way is to use the government overdraft facility at the central bank, or some might call it ‘overt money financing’ to basically inject money into the economy.
      Unfortunately this contravenes the Maastricht treaty, even though central banks are doing it now by the back door to pump up the value of assets.

      For me the most sensible argument came from Robin McAlpine over on commonspace. He talks about the impracticalities of being able to have an indyref before article 50 is settled. For me once we are out of Europe we are unshackled and none of it was our doing. We can inject the stimulus into the economy we need without having to ask. It would give us a world class energy network we could use to sell the vast amounts of excess energy we have overseas – an export no one can afford not to buy.

      I will still vote YES to Indy Scotland in the EU because it’s preferable to the situation we have now but will find it much harder to argue for it on the doorsteps.

    270. Grouse Beater says:

      Heedbanger: “Another terrific post GB.”

      🙂

      Being dry history I thought it unpopular but almost 3,000 hits in two days…

      It comes from almost ten years research for the Glencoe screenplay, (including learning heightened language) another three years for the Highland Clearances film.

    271. paul says:

      @ScottieDog

      Unfortunately this contravenes the Maastricht treaty, even though central banks are doing it now by the back door to pump up the value of assets.

      A perfect example of political will overcoming dogma (and legislation).

      It always amazes me how flexible hard-liners can be when the fancy takes them.

    272. Smallaxe says:

      Vambomarbeley:12:55pm.

      Your like me,Dystextic 🙂

      Peace,Luv and Punktuashon

    273. bjsalba says:

      I’d like the poll to ask what their second choice is.

    274. Betty Boop says:

      Well, yesterday at GG may not have been the best organised event, but, I am sure it was meant with the best intentions and held on that anniversary day of the 2014 Ref to bring together Yes supporters old and new.

      It was arranged by a young man and his friends who ought to be congratulated for attracting a few thousand people after a rally in George Square the day before and the indy convention at St Lukes at the same time.

      We, on the Wings stalls didn’t really have any time to go and hear speakers or see anything much else, but, the rally did just what it should and that was provide a place (and plenty of space) where people could not only listen to speakers, but, more importantly from my point of view, meet and exchange views, experiences and their ideas about future progress.

      From someone who was there from morning until dismantling in the rain, I like Tam Jardine, am quite forgiving of the lack of facilities or defined programme. Good on them for doing it at all and if they organise again, undoubtedly, they have learned some lessons.

    275. One_Scot says:

      ‘Are we looking at spring of 2019 for #indyref2?’

      Yes.

      We have to learn from past mistakes. A referendum will never be won in autumn/September. It needs to be May or June to stand any chance of a win.

    276. Lenny Hartley says:

      Betty Boop , well said, they organisers are to be thanked for all the hard work in making the event the sucess it was . Easy to criticise but remember it was organised by a few individuals with no great Organisation behind them. We need Indy Ref2 to be a grass roots led movement.
      So while I did criticise the P.A. System in an earlier post I thought the event was an outstanding sucess so well done to the few who put their heart and would into it.

    277. Betty Boop says:

      @ Lenny Hartley

      Aye Lenny, it was indeed successful even if pa systems are bothersome :-). These young folk are so keen and need to be encouraged. When we look around at so many meetings and events, it seems to be the more mature amongst us who not only organise and work them, but, attend as well. The more younger folk feel part of this movement, the better for all of us.

      I think some folks might have forgotten, too, that the event was free, but, that doesn’t mean it didn’t have to be paid for by some in time, effort and money. Such rallies aren’t likely to convert people, but, serve as encouragement for Yes activists and show that we are still here. So, more power the their elbows.

      How’s life across the firth?

    278. Smallaxe says:

      Betty Boop says:
      19 September, 2016 at 4:43 pm
      @ Lenny Hartley:

      “I think some folks might have forgotten, too, that the event was free, but, that doesn’t mean it didn’t have to be paid for by some in time, effort and money.”

      I fully agree with you both, I can only speak from my own experience,we drove up from Gretna,feul,meals and time were not inexpensive,but the main price was paid by my dear wife and myself health wise.We were both suffering from chest infections,my wife had to go back and lay down in the car after only about half an hour, I said in my post at 12:32 that
      I had a previous appointment today,this was only half true.

      In reality I was waiting for my doctor to arrive,my daughter
      called him out because I was so unwell. I escaped another hospital stay by the skin of my teeth.

      I do not write this looking for any medals or sympathy from Anyone,we knew the risks and some would say stupidly went ahead with our plans to go to the G.Green,however we both agree that it was well worth it,and would still do the same in hindsight. Independence is imperative to us, as it is to at least half of the population of our Nation.We met Like-minded
      and friendly and interesting people.

      We would also like to give thanks to the organisers of the event and to all the others who braved the weather, to work at all of the stalls etc

      Peace,Love and People Power

    279. Scott says:

      An SNP MP has been criticised for defending a comedy rap group’s use of the word “dyke” to describe Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson.

      I note the BBC is going strong about this fair enough but where have they been about Tank giving a blatant untruth in Parliament regarding the Scottish NHS.

    280. yesindyref2 says:

      @Betty Boop: “and if they organise again, undoubtedly, they have learned some lessons.

      That’s the point of the criticism (which isn’t carping), well mine anyway.

      If we all sit round the blackberry bush holding hands and singing kumbaya saying it’s all perfect, improvements won’t happen, and the brambles won’t make truly delicious jam yum yum.

    281. Fred says:

      @ Smallaxe, take it easy kid!

    282. Smallaxe says:

      Fred

      Thanks Fred I’m well taken care of,antibiotics,steroids and morphine,plus a hot Remy Martin Champagne Cognac!

      Fred,a’m oot ma nut!

      See ye wen a’ git back doon 🙂

      Peace and Love to you Fred and to those you Love

    283. Petra says:

      Hi folks, I would like to apologise for my last ‘complaining’ post. Apologise profusely to those, in particular, who worked on putting the GG event together and put in the hard slog on the day. If it hadn’t been for them there would have been no such event to mark the occasion at all. Also petty moaning about ‘lost’ posts as this probably happens to everyone on here. I was basically taking out my own personal frustration on here due to my situation at home (overwhelmed with responsibilities) and at the end of a particularly bad day, ‘personal’ – which is inexcusable. I still feel that we need someone, such as a Tommy Sheppard type, to ‘pull’ these events together, co-ordinate, improve advertising, better facilities and so on, but that may come. Maybe next year? Anyway a big ‘Sorry’ from me to anyone I may have upset or annoyed with my comments.

    284. Smallaxe says:

      Petra:

      I don’t think think that you have to apologise to anyone,we all have our crosses to bear,personal or otherwise and we can all have an off day. I read your original post and could emphasise immediately with your situation,it may have taken one or two others a little longer but I am sure that they would come to the same conclusion as myself.

      As for your suggestions on the events position I totally agree,if my memory serves it was as late as last Friday night
      I answered someone who had little or no idea of times for the
      Saturday or Sunday events. I could only inform them of the times for Sunday as this was the only information I had,by the
      way this conversation was on “Off Topic”.

      In conclusion Petra,we are or should be among friends here on WOS please put it out of your mind and carry on with your usual informative posts, that I among many others enjoy.

      Peace and Love to You and All who You care for

    285. Dr Joe Kinnear says:

      I personally have been abused (both online and in real life) by people whom think my support for Brexit makes me a Tory/Unionist when I have supported Scottish independence for my whole adult life.

      I am not thick, a racist, misinformed etc. I found the SNPs arguments for the EU (in the UK context) risible and intellectually incoherent. I take democratic accountability and sovereignty very seriously. The EU can structurally never be fully democratic. The EU is an organisation which is not fit for any good purpose.

      Sadly it seems the ‘Yes’ movement ‘demands’ loyalty to every single nonsense that Sturgeon utters (after the Brexit result her ludicrously silly press conference in which the idea was floated that somehow London and Scotland could join up to stay in the EU – utter, utter pish.). Ditto the whole ‘veto’ nonsense etc.

      Frankly if I never speak to another ‘Yesser’ blindly loyal SNPer type that would be too soon. I really hope that Scotland can win her independence and that we can then see the back of the SNP.

    286. Macart says:

      @Petra

      Hopefully you caught my own post in reply to your original earlier.

      Basically, yeah a coordinator with the materiel and resources to hand is all that is required. Someone to put the polish on what folk have been doing for themselves to this point.

      People have done brilliantly this year with rallies and events. The level of communication and engagement has been something we should be immensely proud of. The constituent parts of the YES machine have been dusted off and oiled, but we are fast approaching the time when we need that central hub to pull things together and take events and campaigning onto a higher level.

      P.S.

      No apologies necessary IMV. We’ve all had those days. 🙂

    287. Fred says:

      Smallaxe, hot Buckfast is the preferred choice of invalids hereaboots.

      Just back from viewing “The Celts” exhibition in Edinburgh, National Museum, this is last few days if youse haven’t already seen it, closes 25th Sep’. Stunning displays of stuff from all across Europe. When will it ever be brought together again? Saw a Wings flag hingin oot a tenement windae in Morrison Street.

    288. Smallaxe says:

      Fred,Buckfast! if I took took that I would take Superman on for a square go,and probably beat him! I learned a long time
      ago that any fortified wine turns me into the Hulk in a bad
      Mood.Mind you,living in Barlanark at that time meant that the
      headcases gave me a wide berth.

      I would have loved to have taken the wife to see “The Celts”
      exhibition,unfortunatly as you know we’re both bedridden for the foreseeable future but I think I’ll check out the web in
      case there’s a brochure or suchlike.

      I’m lying here listening to music as usual,right now John Lennon (Peace be upon him)is serenading us with Working Class
      Hero so it’s not all bad.Thanks Fred for keeping in touch, I class you as a friend on and off Wings, I had a blether with
      Nana on O/T earlier today she’s a gem.Funny how we know who
      we can be friends with even if Wings didn’t exist,good vibes I
      suspect man,cool.

      I just checked that last line, I think I’ve stepped back 40yrs,out there man,something else. 🙂

      Peace Love and Friendship Fred

    289. Smallaxe says:

      Fred,make that,50yrs my brain is still in the 60s,wish my body
      was there with it. 🙂

      Peace Always

    290. The opposition to the EU in Scotland is much more complex than this article assumes. I voted to leave the EU and I am, and will remain a firm Yes Voter for Scottish independence. My opposition to the EU can in no way be compared with the no vote in England and Wales. My opposition to the EU is from the left not from the right and I know very many other Scottish independence voters who voted against the EU who will vote for Scottish independence every time we get a chance. So don’t write us off as Yes supporters.

    291. K. A. Mylchreest says:

      I found the maps here very informative and enlightening :

      https://medium.com/@jakeybob/brexit-maps-d70caab7315e#.9q1ny0k8r

      Enjoy! 🙂



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