Wings Over Scotland

Fair comment – we should’ve voted thrpugh May’s bill 2nd or 3rd time round, England /Wales would have what they voted for and we’d be halfway to (an effectively borderless) Indy by now.

The cherry on the empire biscuit is Nicola Sturgeon’s rallying cry for Indy Ref 2 next weekend.

Couldnae script it…

Deal with Tories? Ar you kidding, this is the worst, most duplicitous UK Gov ever.

Noone can trust them.

Yep. SNP seem lost.

Happy birthday. Away and enjoy yourself. Sadly, this crapola will all still be here when you get back.

There’s no way the Tories would offer an indyref2 exchange.

Just games and chicanery, which is typical of Westminster. The SNP should be having nothing to do with any of these games and nonsense. They should be standing back, merely pointing out that Scotland voted against brexit.

THIS is what happens when SNP MP’s are down in London too Long, they lose perspective on what matters. They start to think that their game play and pseudo negotiations (in whcih the SNP gain nothing) are somehow ‘making a difference’.

It’s about independence. England can do whatever kind of mad brexit stupidity it wants, Scotland wants to have nothing to do with it. The SNP need to focus on SCOTLAND and delivering on what SCOTLAND wants. England voted for brexit, that is their choice, Scotland wants to stay in the EU. THAT is their mandate, nothing else.

Peter Bell –

link to peterabell.scot

Is it a serious offer?

Or are they just trolling Posh Boy?

Cos he seems to be wallowing in the trough of

Look they won’t give you the people a GE.

Or maybe they’re trolling Corbyn as well.

Anyway you lie down Stu in prep for your team lying down to Celtic!

Do you think an SNP victory Scotland and a Tory victory in England might be the best backdrop for Indyref2 with the added bonus of delaying a no deal cliff edge?

I’m assuming the SNP leadership believe they can get a s30 even if they have to go to court for it.

FFS?

@Capella,

Peter Bell deals with exactly this in his blog in the link from Ian Brotherhood.

Playing Westminster politics is a game we’ll never win.

bobajock says:
27 October, 2019 at 12:04 pm

“Ar you kidding, this is the worst, most duplicitous UK Gov ever.”
” Noone can trust them.”

I don’t doubt that for one minute … just take a look at the guy FFS.

link to youtube.com

Maybe we dont want independence….just to moan all day about the terrible tories.

I think it was Jefferson who said it was the pursuit of happyness that was most important…..

Scots happy with their lot, whinging all day about hard done to they are, embarass me….they are losers.

Securing Scotlands independence was always going to involve getting our hands dirty.

Perhaps my Party just dont get it.

“Y’ know what folks we can’t even be bothered.”

Well sadly that has been obvious for some time now. However, the Cairnstoons are still excellent though.

” the official SNP plan is to now vote with the Tories to give them the election……”

I doubt you are party to what the SNP plan is assuming they have a plan at all.

Your posts are now like a Party Leader in a political party attacking the main political party in Scotland.

BTL is now more and more becoming a home for only the ultra loyal Wingers and phoney independence supporters who are delighted about the continual criticism of the SNP.

A single issue general election is a bad idea. Folks should be considering a range of policies and manifestos. Why? Simple – in the UK the dreadful FPTP system will deliver a ‘winner’ on as little as 35%. So, if Johnson has his GE he probably gets an overwhelming majority to change the fundamental makeup of the UK with minority backing.

The flip side is the SNP could also do well out of a GE right now.

The question really is, how do the SNP plan to capitalise on a landslide while London is in the grip of the mad bad far right?

Is there any indication that the SNP asked Johnson for the right to hold a second indyref in return for backing a GE? Is it possible its being kept quiet for now?

Or are the SNP just missing the big picture, (deliberately or not)and hoping only to do well in Scotland?

The latter (returning possibly 50 MPs to Westminster) won’t really help obtain independence. In reality they have no real clout in the HoC.

@ Bob Mack – well I’ve now read Peter Bell’s article and find it riddled with logical errors. He might as well have written one sentence: I don’t like Nicola Sturgeon. That would have been shorter and wasted less time.

Like Peter Bell and many others, I don’t have access to the SNPs inner strategy. But I do give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are working to a plan. I can only guess at the outlines.

Polls suggest that the SNP will wipe the board in Scotland and the Conservatives in England. Let’s see what happens now and how much cold water the BBC pours on this idea. That will be a difficult thing to do while promoting the Tories election dash. I wonder how they will manage it.

The SNP can get an indyref out of Johnson much more easily by withholding Holyrood’s consent over the Withdrawal Agreement Bill.

A good election first, with the SNP gaining 14 to 18 seats from the red and blue Britnats, then, from that strong position, if the Tories are still in power, refuse consent to WAB.

Macron is waiting on the UK to provide the reason for their request for an extension and if he does not get one the UK will leave the EU at 11:00 pm on 31st October.

mr thms says:
27 October, 2019 at 1:10 pm
Macron is waiting on the UK to provide the reason for their request for an extension and if he does not get one the UK will leave the EU at 11:00 pm on 31st October.

Correct. 4 days time, Thursday, and there are 27 wildcards with a veto, all on a default leave option if there’s no consensus.

Part of me hopes there’s no extension, and revocation of Article 50 becomes an emergency option we are compelled to attempt, unilaterally, on Wednesday, or Thursday at the latest, and hopefully justify our sovereign prerogative to the ECJ retrospectively.

Some of us have been warning for some about the SNP’s lack of direction and passion and have been labelled trolls as a result.
The party is in a rudderless boat without a compass crewed by lethargic and inert individuals. We are talking about independence for our country but there is no fire of inspiration.

Ahundredthidiot says:
27 October, 2019 at 12:56 pm

“I will be going to George Sq next Saturday.”

Yeah me too, the first time I will be getting up of my fat arse for Scotland in a long while … Let’s hope Nicola’s speech will be worth price of the train fare.

link to youtube.com

Now we can have a real good guess at why the Tories have put a load of civil servants into The Scottish Office.

They are actively planning to run most of Scotlands business,regardless of Holyrood after Scotland failing to stop Brexit. We have been fighting against our own interests trying to save all the UK.

Bacm to the drawing board.

Last GE the SNP had little time to advocate policy regarding Westminster, instead they were hammered continually on perceived nonsensical failures in performance as the Scottish Government at Holyrood. Maybe they will have learned from that and have nothing in their manifesto relating to what they will do at Westminster, only Holyrood, independence, sovereignty of the people and power. Just a thought. Maybe we should wait and see the contents of the manifesto, rather than ridicule the date of the GE which may serve to keep us temporarily in the EU for a little longer.

kapelmeister says:
27 October, 2019 at 1:08 pm

A good election first, with the SNP gaining 14 to 18 seats from the red and blue Britnats, then, from that strong position, if the Tories are still in power, refuse consent to WAB.

I have a palace in Valyria I’d like to sell you.

Why would Johnson, with a strong majority in Westminster, give a diddy about what the piddy little provincial council in Holyrood says?

PM Johnson will, at best, ignore Holyrood (like the WM government have done before), at worst, shut down Holyrood “temporarily, in the national interest” or some such, and govern Scotland through the new, expanded Scotland Office. (See: NI)

Of course it’s wrong and a democratic outrage, but what can you do? The EU or the UN won’t interfere in the UK’s internal affairs (see: Catalonia).

If Ian Blackford were my MP, I’d be at the branch meetings calling for him to be deselected.

A GE will deliver a Tory majority regardless of how it manages to get called. As much as I didn’t want to trust the Tories to deliver an S30, this idea is even worse.

Ahundredthidiot says:
27 October, 2019 at 12:41 pm
“Maybe we dont want independence….just to moan all day about the terrible SNP”

There, fixed that for you.

For those who don’t understand why the slightly earlier date is important, have a look at this New Statesman article:

link to newstatesman.com

.
Aye, Stu.,

Many happy returns Stu.,

P.S. I feel guilty for not buying you a present when you just sent me my clever wee WOS fundraiser gift. A smart metal McSwiss knife credit card thingy. Excellent.

Bob Mack

“You still need a route to independence”.

The way to independence isn’t a road. It’s a battle of manouevre.

Politician says something different 3 days later, surprise!

Look on the bright side – at least you see it. There’s some people who have forgotten that Scottish Independence is a concept and not a party or political leaning.

The situation is this – the Union needs Scotland, not just because it wouldnt be ‘the Union’ anymore but purely economic reasons. Ive never heard of 5 million ordinary people just walking away from the result of a referendum with 1 trillion+ of oil and gas, endless potential in renewables, water and thats just the energy/commodities. In fact the UK would be a far more democratic place than we give it credit for if they DID allow that to happen.

So the UK needs Scotland.

The EU in turn needs the UK to stay in the EU. There isnt a situation where the UK leaves the EU and it not pose very large (lethal) problems for the EU in its current state.

Firstly – any tariffs the EU imposes on the UK will be mirrored by the UK. This means access to the 6th largest economy in the world, just off the EU shore will be more expensive. The EU (whether you believe this or not) is in a very weak economic position and that is an understatement. We have had the longest period of economic growth in history and euro interest rates stayed at zero. German Bunds well below 0. The ECB stopped quantitative easing at the beginning of this year and have restarted it. The European banking sectors market cap is 3x euro GDP. Compare this to an almost 1 to 1 for the US. Deutsche Bank produced a report calling for restructuring of the EU banking sector to help mitigate potential problems but the truth is European banks are not in a healthy position. German autos have done very poorly and given their portion of German GDP they simply cant afford to have high tariffs on their UK exports.

Second – a hard Brexit and a lowering of taxes on corporations (before you scream just remember Ireland and Sweden have lower corporate tax rates than the UK) would mean that the UK would be on the receiving end of serious foreign investment. Im not saying this would be a good or bad thing for ordinary people. Just that its a high likelihood.

Third – if the EU does decide to play nice and allow the kind of trade options that dont hinder UK and EU businesses then the rest of the EU, under the restrictive single currency, taxes and regulations will wonder what the point is. Nationalist parties across the EU are making big gains already.

In short – the future of the EU after Brexit is to either seriously reform and allow more autonomy to individual economies or to fail entirely. Scotland is one of the main negotiating points for the EU – there is a pro EU democratic mandate and Britain needs Scotland.

With all this (and more that I cant be bothered typing) the SNP has and will continue to work for EU and not the Scottish people. If you look at it through the lens of ‘keeping the UK in the EU at all costs’ then their behavior makes much more sense than the pretend ‘representatives of Scotland seeking independence for Scotland’.

Im not pretending here that the UK will be peaches and cream in the immediate aftermath of a proper Brexit, but it is very often overlooked what the situation is for the EU.

This, if you are cynical enough, is fair explanation for why certain parties act the way they do.

As much as it pains me to say this, I think the SNP have majorly dropped the ball over the past couple of years.

Right now they come across as just another party playing WM political games for short-term party political gain.

Scotland being a part of the UK taints the politics in Scotland. It’s become mostly about indy (and, gahhh, Brexit!!). The fact is that within the UK, Scotland, or Scottish parties, or people of Scotland can never hope to have much influence at all.

An independent country of about 5M people can easily support a proportional representation multi-party parliament. We in Finland do. One of the problems Scotland has is the old British political culture of FPTP and the desire of people to have their “own” MP (or MSP) instead of several regional MPs (or MSPs).

Believe you me, even regional MPs (like all ours are) fight for their local matters. The locality is just larger than your village or part of a town/city. It’s as if people looked at the bigger picture…

But changing political culture is very slow. Holyrood was constituted as partly PR, but not too much, kind of multi-party, aiming at coalition consensual governments (the norm in most European countries, and seen as a GOOD thing), but that all changed when the SNP became the plurality or majority party. Then the UK parties banded together to make Holyrood basically bipartite. Because it’s the only political culture the UK knows.

Scottish independence supporters are just as guilty of perpetuating the old WM political culture. Calling list MSPs, such as Murdo Fraser (excuse me, while I laugh for a while) “unelected” and questioning their legitimacy as MSPs is questioning proportional representation.

The problem Scotland has is letting political parties decide the list ranking – closed list – not very democratic. We got rid of it before I was born.

In my country, it’s open list. Each party puts up candidates and whoever within the party list gets the most votes tops the list. Same for 2nd, 3rd etc. The parties cannot decide who tops the list.

Then it’s all counted according to the d’Hondt, and we end up with a parliament that broadly reflects the popular vote.

Sure, sometimes the popular vote doesn’t go the way you want, and the last places can be a bit counter-intuitive, but you end up with a parliament that reflects the popular vote. 22% this, 20% that, with other parties at 17%, 15%, 8%, dribs and drabs. No one party in our Parliament ever gets an outright majority, and if that happened, we’d view it as an aberration, an abomination, a dictatorship. Just a different political culture born out of a different electoral system.

The problem Scotland has is getting used to a semi-PR system in Holyrood while tied down to the Westmister FPTP system, which permeates the political thinking of the electorate and even Scottish, SNP politicians.

‘The Liberal and SNP plan……’,announced in the Beeb this morning, just won the Libs a few more seats in Scotland at the next GE.
.
Jesus Wept.

Bob Mack

Greens won’t be standing.

ScotsRenewables @ 2.29

and yet here I am, still a member……for now.

Saturday is D Day for NS.

Now, away back and iron your union flag.

Joe @ 3.12
Well the SNP haven’t ever made any secret of the fact that “right now ” their priority is keeping the UK in the EU.
It’s their motives for doing so that are up for speculation!
And how long the SNP support will tolerate them doing so?
Their given reasons are plausible enough and I’ve no doubt this suits the EU down to the ground.
There may indeed be “understandings” agreed on the down low which unfortunately seems to be the way of Global Politics right now.
I suspect this is what people around the world are getting to the end of their rope with.
Keeping the electorate confused and speculating and having a secondary agenda that we all only find out years later is sadly normal political practice.

The SNP seemed to take the view that to get anywhere they had to play the Westminster system and it seems to have paid off.
There clearly have been talks between the EU and the Scottish Government and we don’t know what has been agreed.
All we do know is the SNP/ Scottish Government are prioritising stopping Brexit.

But we also know that to have had Indy Ref 2 right after the Brexit vote or even with the 57 MPs in 2015 would have been ridiculous as we had just had the 2014 vote.
But so far the time spent stopping Brexit whither or not it’s at the behest at the EU or not has been time spent damaging the Union too and damaging it beyond repair.
So the UK Union will end even if Brexit doesn’t happen.
The question then becomes…..
Who does the EU need more Scotland or England
The Continuer State thing has not been agreed upon.

As to whether or not we are walking away with our resources after a Yes vote,your not being clear exactly what you mean?
How do you imagine Westminster could force us to stay?

Breeks says:
27 October, 2019 at 12:28 pm

‘…..Why don’t we pretend we’re a sovereign country, and pretend we can revoke Article 50 unilaterally, and then pass the time waiting for an election by having a massive acrimonious bun fight over constitutional sovereignty, and finding ourselves already independent by polling day?’

At a meeting yesterday a number mooted the possibility of peaceful, civil disobedience. I am sure this might be one of a number of possibilities that might be up for consideration.

As Jim Morrison sang ‘You cannot PETITION the lord with prayer’..well Jimbo may have gone to that big gig in the sky..but the idea of petitioning any power supernatural or human asserting its colonial entitlement over us makes me want to puke.

All I see is Blackford, a merchant banker, posturing and playing the Westminster game of pantomime and Sturgeon tweeting into the ether whilst Boris and his chums are playing for real…..they have fucked over their own playpen so why the fuck will they listen to the squealing imprisoned farts of the SG?

I and others warned on the ‘hive mind’ (where is the deranged GEEO entity now?) that we are about to be emasculated of our ‘parliament’ and its limited power, which the SNP have colluded with..never challenging the constant breaches of the Union Act.. and direct ruled as North Britain by these Etonian gangsters.

Where’s the resident bore, who for years asserted without any legal backup from the SNP that we were the only equal partners with England in the UK Union? Yet went quiet when the arse end province called ‘Norther Ireland is de facto getting slung bribes and de jure being allowed to get a better deal than us?

Oh and by the way ‘Joe’ and ‘Mist100′ you are both new on here aren’t you? and we’ve got your number…it’s ’77’.
Weird scenes inside the goldmine right enough.

lumilumi @ 4.33
I don’t think so lumilumi ,they’ve made mistakes to be sure,and they’ve played within the Westminster system,absolutely.
But I’d ask what do you suggest they did?
Sit back and let the Tory’s get on with Brexit these last year’s,like Labour did with Thatcher?
They didn’t choose to be in the Westminster system we did that in 2014.
They may very well have some sort of arrangements with the EU and are stuck with them till it all plays out.
The EU and the Scottish Government had no way of knowing just how insane the politics of Westminster would become or how long this nonsense would go on for.
I would have said back then that the best time to run Indy Ref 2 was during the ” Implementation period ” when Westminster was fighting for Trade agreements it was ill equipped to negotiate,but the implementation period has never came.
It could even be argued that the realisation of this is what caused the big push for the no deal crash out?
In the meantime the Scottish People have no exactly stood up for themselves either…. Aye…

We’ve been told often enough if we truly want independence all we have to do is demand it as a majority.
While I agree with the Rev the Scottish Government should have secured the section 30 or mapped out the alternative last year,and, failure to do so was taking an unnecessary risk with independence happening soon….
But if …. If and ands were nuts and nuts we’d all have granola….. 🙂
Independence is still on the table…..
And IMO there are many of those MPs who are very admirable people in the way that they do their job in Westminster all things considered!
Not to mention the alternative to them is nay real alternative at all.

Spotted this on Politwoops @deleted by mps what does everyone make of it ? 🙁

I for one am very disheartened.

Angus B MacNeil MP (scottish-national-party) tweeted :
Not to depress anyone, but we don’t even have a Plan A up and working …. ? Depresses me mind ??

0 0
Angus B MacNeil MP Deleted 9 days ago after 3 minutes, tweeted using Twitter for Android

Lochside re 77 numpties

I will give you joe, yes.

Those poor deluded fools, still playing for queen and country. One day they will develop a mind of their own…..and either face it and deal with it….or bury it and be angry for ever.

Colin A – it is ‘oft quoted phrase’

but then, you’re a fucking muppet aren’t you.

Please state, for the record, that the 77th are all a bunch of stupit wee boys and lassies withoot a mind o’ their own. Slaves in fact, of the Empire.

Go on – say it? – and don’t just ditto – actually post it.

Prick.

On ballot paper:

x beside SNP then written in ink:

I’m voting for the SNP IF they will declare the Union dissolved if they obtain 50% +1 of the popular vote in Scotland.

Colin A

btw….I might be in the back office……and have you on camera…..testing you…..maybe I’m the double bluff….maybe I’m the coffee girl…..you’ll never know for sure.

(Now I’m inside your head – and it’s not a good view!)

New Statesman link works fine.

It is beginning to look like the SNP are morphing into a UK establishment party. Contentedly abiding by the archaic Westminster rules and conventions of an unwritten constitution.

Forming a pact with the LIbDems! With Swinson? Carmichael? Carmichael, who with Mundel tried to destroy the political career of Nicola Sturgeon.

And where is the SNP visible and vocal support for Alex Salmond? A career devoted to the SNP and the party cannot bring itself to welcome him to the conference? Why is the civil servant Evans still in position?

I’ve only ever voted SNP. At the last Council election I abstained due to shades of candidate entryism from SNP HQ.

We need a Wings party. Call it whatever, but make clear it’s unswerving intention, independence.

Colin Alexander @5.41

Your suggestion will render your ballot paper invalid and the vote will be lost – but I’m sure you knew that….

Many/some of the SNP MPs are not politicians. They only stood for election after the 2014 referendum because they thought Scotland needed them. I’m thinking of people like Dr Philippa Whitford and Joanna Cherry QC.

They are hugely intelligent and are focused on Scotland regaining independence. I am sure that they will have been consulted by Ian Blackford as to the best way forward.

I am therefore not in total despair. Yet.

:
27 October, 2019 at 4:33 pm

“… Making all their MPs look shifty at best, frauds at worst.”

Claiming that wrenching Scotland away from the nurturing breast of our beloved EU will cause all manner of social and financial calamities.
Does not really square – with telling people that divesting ourselves of the parasitical UK will be no more complex than changing your mobile phone provider.

Even less so, If they were to succeed with their three-year mission to thwart Brexit despite the people of the UK having vote to LEAVE the EU in a referendum…yes a REFERENDUM the very thing they claim is the five-star gold standard way of getting us out of the UK.

The twenty-year-old me would never have even contemplated voting for such a bunch of duplicitous charlatans far less felt morally obliged to join them in the aftermath of the ’79 Referendum betrayal.

Has the SNP leadership actually morphed into something as awful as the Labour Party of Dalyell, Dewar, Robertson, Wilson, Cunningham, et all…

…and me into one of the brain-dead old fossils that I would accost on the doorstep who would freely admit that the Labour party were worse than useless but would be voting for them nonetheless – because they always had done and were too old to change now?

Colin Alexander

EXcellent.

They would have to argue the toss as to whether it was – or was not a vote for the SNP candidate.

Bummer if it was ruled invalid … and turned out to be the +1 that was needed. LOL

Off topic

Just a reminder:

BOTH POLITICIANS AND DIAPERS NEED TO BE CHANGED OFTEN AND FOR THE SAME REASON.

ahundredthidiot

A bit hyperbolic I’ll admit but thinking about that strategy and its implications brought to mind the phrase “White-man speaks with forked tongue” and I could not help but hark back to the days when the SNP always held the moral high ground with the Unionists being lower than a snakes’ belly.

Ian Blackford was around back then too … never one to be trusted any farther than you could throw a medium-sized Hippopotamus.

Liz g says:
27 October, 2019 at 5:17 pm

lumilumi @ 4.33
I don’t think so lumilumi ,they’ve made mistakes to be sure,and they’ve played within the Westminster system,absolutely.
But I’d ask what do you suggest they did?

That’s the 64 million dollar question.

But meekly aquasencing to Westminster ideas and votes sure as hell isn’t going to result in independence for Scotland. I’d say less focus by the SNP in Westminster games, more focus on independence, and Holyrood as the legitimate expression of the sovereignty of the people of Scotland.

Which can easily be ignored by the Tory goverment in Westminster. They’ll cite the English idea that the monarch is sovereign but has conceded sovereignty to parliament. Self-congratulating each other on “the mother of parliaments” along the way. They’ll quite easily ignore Scotland’s fundamentally different idea of sovereignty.

@ Liz

Yeah, they stated their priority is keeping the UK in the EU. That obviously implies ‘at the cost of Scottish Independence’. They are therefore not a Scottish National Party but an EU National Party in all but name.

As for the Scottish resources thing – I dont want to be too negative here but the prospect of the UK, indebted as it is and with a difficult post Brexit few years ahead will allow Scotland to cut loose with the bulk of UK energy resources (among many other things) after offering a simple straight up referendum is simply unrealistic.

You can kind of wargame the scenarios (assuming they even agree to a referendum):

1 – because we dont want the kind of ‘chaos’ caused by Brexit (remainers not accepting the result) it would have to be won by a substantial 60% majority.
2 – assuming this was won they could easily pretend that because the Scottish people arent oil investors, international trade experts, global politics gurus etc that they ‘didnt know what they were voting for’. They would also use every little dirty trick the remain camp has used in the Brexit referendum.
3 – if number 2 was not successfully pushed then organised Unionist violence would erupt and there would be a surprising amount of Nationalist reprisals. This state of unrest would lead Westminster to call a halt to the process while security forces are deployed to provide stability until ‘peace and normality has been established’.
4 – while 3 is happening the basis for independence would be undermined – economically Scotland would be made to suffer by any means and the results would be blamed on the ‘chaos caused by the independence referendum’.
5 – people would be steadily worn down into accepting a situation of perpetual stasis until such time support for independence is sufficiently low and another indy ref can be held at such time as supports the Unionists, which they WILL win and that will be the end of that.

Thats the most likely scenario and apart from stage 4 mirrors exactly whats being done to people on Brexit.

It could get much dirtier also – MI5 would already have assets close to political figures and even senior political figures themselves and somehow, just somehow, every time a resolution could be won through it would escape any kind of realisation. If it gets VERY dirty then those evil dirty nationalists would set off a bomb somewhere crowded (you know, to undermine public support for themselves) with maybe a reprisal by Unionists on Scottish politicians who arent agreeable to British wishes?

The above is the basically the intelligence services 101 on how to achieve political goals in a nation. Its been played out many, many times.

Scottish people need to be focused and want independence more than security, more than wealth, more than ‘happy open border BS’. They also need to stand solid on democratic principles (which hasnt happened with Brexit) then maybe there’s a hope. Trouble is – the UK is actually still a good country relative to most others to live.

However the SNP are absolutely not that, even if they were actual committed nationalists. Which is laughable now.

Only solution I see that doesnt involve winning some sort of war – let the bastards keep the oil and the gas. Offer them cheap water and renewable energy production and then fight like hell to get out.

The vast majority of this thread is sadly once again SNP baaaad.

BTL is in the main a mixture of idiots and Britnats.

Apart from civil war how are the SNP meant to gain Scotland its Independence ? Any sensible and practical ways forward would be helpful ?
Blaming the only party that is totally in favour of Scotland and our people seems pointless if there are no sensible and practical alternatives.

Cubby

Feel free to argue the merits of SNP policy re Brexit and Scottish indy, if you see any.

Joe @ 7.09
Aw behave yerself Joe,that’s just buying into the British Nationalists bullshit.
Even if half of what you said was a quarter true and we speak the war speak of Westminster.
Your forgetting that when Westminster was pulling all that shit off we were right there with them.
We know them better than they know themselves.. Aye..

Your seriously suggesting we have over our territorial waters and all its resources in case Westminster does what???
Wind up the Orange Order?? Plant a few false flags??
Those days are long gone…. The Orange Order have nae real power here and false flags don’t work anymore either we see them for what they are and that kind of defeats the purpose.

Think about what yer sayin man…. We hand them our resources to enable them to always afford to wage some kind of war on us…
We’ve already done that it’s called the Treaty of Union…
And ending that folly is the whole point!!
Boy they really done a number on you… These the people who think Boris Johnson’s prime minister material and Charles should be a king and your scared of them?
They’ve never held a country yet that’s rejected them and yes those countries sometimes paid a high price fur it.
But they didn’t share the island with those people and that made their risk less!

Old Pete

If it ever came to civil disobedience, whose side do you think the SNP politicians would be on?

Whose side were they on when it was Stu v Kezia?

Or to put it another way: who pays their salaries?

Who did they take an oath of allegiance to?

As Indyref2 develops I hope stu has a plan for managing the unionist that will attack and try to bring down this site

Shut @ 7.45
Will attack… Will..??
I’m supposed to be decorating. 🙂

Colin Alexander @
They will be on the side of law and order of course.
To do otherwise would be tantamount to a declaration of war and right up Westminster’s street!
Civil disobedience is no the business of the SNP it’s the people’s business only!

The voters of the UK returned MPs in 2017. This was the midst of Brexit deliberations and every voter had no excuse for not understanding the issues. A huge problem for both May and Johnson is, these aren’t the MPs they wanted! The peoples’ chosen representatives don’t suit their agendas.

Johnson dislikes the mix even more and is scared shitless by their opinions and potential. That’s why he’s been delaying, proroguing, limiting their choices, and wanting them replaced.

They have passed the second reading of the current Withdrawal Agreement Bill and now wish to proceed to amendments. They would probably tweek the WAB to improve workers’ rights, probably soften Brexit to include customs union, and perhaps even insist on an EURef2.

This the not in any way the Brexit Johnson and his far right cabal want. Their simple solution is a crash out ‘no deal’. And MPs have probably denied that.

What next? Who knows!? A interesting week ahead.

Truth probably is, most YES supporters are less interesting in the second English Civil War, between Executive and Parliament …. we want to know what the SNP are going to do and when we actually dissociate from WM permanently.

Liz g said

“Did ye live in a Hovis advert back then Col. B ?”

LOL!

The “For as long as there is a hundred of us still alive…” bit of the Declaration of Arbroath, is the maxim that governs my every thought.

“…cause they’re aw the same” is an over-simplified truism, which I agree despite being politicians the SNP once had an exemption from. To have even a faint chance of becoming an SNP MP, the time, effort and expense necessary would tend to deter career orientated carpetbaggers from giving such a herculean quest a moment’s thought.

The advent of the Scottish Parlament and the SNP’s subsequent electoral success, there and at Westminster, changed things a bit.

Before Holyrood there were not much more than a dozen people whos jobs were linked to the SNP now there are at least 100 elected representatives, add to that their PAs, Researchers, Special Advisors and a greatly enhanced HQ Staff and you have a lucrative career structure that did not previously exist.

It would be naive to assume that they are all motivated by nothing other than a desire to help set their country free regardless of cost to themselves(like in days gone by), and that none of them are” NATS of Convenience”, there to push an alternative agenda or to line their pockets courtesy of the public purse, or with a little help from those who would like better access to the public purse.

But be assured, I will continue to vote for them….[everything goes into soft focus sepia and the Hovis theme starts to play in the backgroundd]…A bit like they twats who used to flog the Socialist Worker at Demos with the poster saying – “VOTE LABOUR – BUT FIGHT FOR A SOCIALIST ALTERNATIVE”

What’s funny but contemptibly pathetically sad at the same time, is those who complained time after time that Sturgeon didn’t go to any marches or rallies – for 5 years – and now that she is going to be the main event at one – the first for 5 years – are complaining about her going and what she’s going to say when she hasn’t even said it yet.

Wha a load of old sewn-up arseholes.

Rally George Square starting 1pm on Saturday 2nd November – next week. With Sturgeon the main speaker.

link to thenational.scot

Some won’t be able to make it, fair enough. Some are more likely to be there in the company of manky shirt – or even IN his shirt.

Just. Fucking. Get. There. If. You. Support. Independence.

Any one else having trouble accessing The National on line?

Colin Alexander @ 8.08
I believe it was Nicola who said in 2014 that all current laws would remain as they are on the day of independence unless we change them..
And no matter what the jurisdiction hurting people is always illegal under any law!

@Dan
That’s nice dear, any excuse in a storm.

TAKE THE FUCKING TRAIN.

Stu : just the other day you were complaining that Brexit being cancelled would end SNP claim for IndyRef2.0

Now you are arguing that general-election means brexit will happen. Now – Tory Brexit is clearly a shite-show and will be a disaster. However it is paradoxically also the golden ticket for convincing 50+% of Scots that independence is the best option.

The real boogie-man / awkward question for SNP is a peoples-vote.

@Dan
Still plenty of buses and seats, less than an hour and a half each way, £7.20 return if you don’t have a discount card plus £1 booking fee.

Rally from 1.30pm to 3.30pm.

Give yourself time for lunch before and a pint afterwards – after all, you won’t be driving. Bus is comfortable – I’ve been on it to go to the Edinburgh march, and I had to get into Glasgow first and back out again. Some people come from Shetland.

link to uk.megabus.com

Or is there some other “handy” excuse …

@Liz g

“I think there will be too many for George Square as well ”

I certainly hope so, I’d like to see crowds from Central Station to Buchanan Bus Station, from High Street to Hope Street.

If they can do it in Barcelona.

———–

Any more excuses from anyone else: “There’s no room in Glasgow”?

It might rain? Oh dear, this is Scotland.

There really is so much patheticness around, with people preferring to moan, whinge and hold grievances AGAINST the SNP.

Well moaners, whingers and grieveance monkeys, put up, or SHUT UP.

Col Blimp IV @ 9.04
Why thank you for that Col B.
A beautiful song and the images were inspirational xxx

Just in case anyone didn’t know that there’s an Independence Rally in George Square organised by The National next Saturday at 1.30pm to 3.30 pm, with Nicola Sturgeon, the Leader of the SNP and the First Minister of Scotland, speaking (amongst others, another to be announced every day this week):

link to thenational.scot

Fed up with staying at home navel-gazing over Brexit? Reading blog articles telling you Indy Ref 2020 ain’t going to happen because, errr, reasons?

Have a day out, meet like-minded people, bring saltires, YES badges, placards, fishing rods, enjoy the craic.

Independence is on its way and IT WON’T BE LONG NOW

That’s George Square, Glasgow, YES City!

Well, one of them with apologies Dundee.

Freedom Square!!! 1.30pm 2nd November 2019!

Indy with Sturgeon !!!!!

Be there or be Square – Geordie Whelps Square – geddit?

Golfnut says:

For arguments sake though, let’s say that Nicola broadcast her detailed route to ending this union, not only would we have every Tom, dick, and Harry finding fault, we would have just handed the enemy a stick to beat us with.
—————-

That’s fair, Golfnut. But surely there’s plenty of room between what you describe and the ultra-minimalist messaging we Yessers are currently getting from the SNP.

If they’d like to use their current leverage at WM but for some reason are being thwarted, can’t they just tell us so in general terms? Even when it did appear they’d used their leverage to secure those mealy-mouthed Labour commitments for an S30, they never told us they’d done so — instead it had to appear as gossip and reading between the lines.

I am way more pro-SNP than many commenters here. I understand the necessary triangulation and the need to address soft No Remainers far more than the indy rank and file, and believe this strategy is partially responsible for Yes consistently topping 50%.

But is there not a possibility we’re being taken a wee bit too much for granted here, at least as far as messaging is concerned? Would it really kill the leadership to tell us they’re at least considering how to use their current leverage to secure an S30? Just some small indication that this has at least crossed their mind?

More generally — and I know I’m a broken record on this — the SNP need to stop being so seemingly honourable and therefore predictable not just at WM but online too. We’re no longer in the twentieth century. It’s perfectly possible to segment your message for many different audiences. So if, let’s say, you don’t want soft No Remainers to know that you’re trying to leverage Brexit to obtain an S30, then only send that message on social media to confirmed Yessers. And so on.

TLDR: The SNP’s current shortcomings may not be in overall strategy but in its messaging re same.

Dan

I feel your pain, I wish I had a bottle of wine or whisky for every bottle of wine and whisky I donated for raffle prizes over the years.

It won’t cost me that much in time or money to get to George Square but I recall taking my son and his pal to Dundee on the train for some video game event … That was a pricey expedition.

Scotland, the entire country, did not vote for Brexit, the loss of workers’ rights, our democratic institutions, economic calamity and the degradation of state support for Scotland’s citizens. The Tories have spaffed £35 billion– an underestimate- up a wall on their hopelessly entangled constitutional failures.That is not the sign of competent government, WM is not a functioning democracy.
Scotland in another country with a functioning government, its foundation built on human rights and democracy, independence is on the horizon, visible and within Scotland’s grasp.

‘We conclude from recent GDP data that the slowdown of business investment offers
the most probable and clear evidence of a negative Brexit-related impact. Compared to a post-crisis average path of increase of 4% a year, we calculate a cumulative
shortfall of business investment connected to the Brexit decision of some £35 billion…there are strong grounds this time as to why a recession of some depth and duration is likely in a no-deal Brexit, due to a combined demand and supply shock of exceptional scope and character…In conclusion, we can be sure that – if Brexit goes ahead – the argument about the scope for deregulation will quickly become louder, and more pressing, with the rightwing of the business community sensing that this is their golden opportunity…to wrench the UK by political force out of its vast complex network of EU links, and to hardwire it into the US economy, in a way that irrevocably connects the UK politically as well as economically into the American system. This brings perceived benefits to both the ‘free trade and deregulation’ wing,and to the hard right Brexit base, who see Trump as a symbolic figure to admire…From an economic standpoint, there is no serious Brexit scenario in which the UK benefits economically’

link to progressiveeconomyforum.com

@LizG. Fair point! Peoples vote does rather cancel the ‘once in a generation’ argument.

Soon it the direction of brexit will be clear. Very soon those who voted UK / EU in Scotland will need to choose which union they wish to be part of. A small swing will win it for YES.

BTW, why is it such a problem to have a GE on a Monday instead of a Thursday? Why Thursday, anyway?!?

Thursday seems to me an idiotic day to have a GE. A weekday when people have work etc. In my country, all elections (local, parliament, president, EU) are on a Sunday. It’s deemed the day most people don’t have work.

If you have work or anything else on polling day, you can vote in advance. In person, in hundreds and thousands of “advance polling” places. Shopping malls, schools, post officies, libraries etc. You have to present proper ID (driving licence, passport, photo ID card), your polling card (vote) will be sealed in an envelope only to be opened on the actual polling day.

If you vote on actual polling day (always a Sunday), you have to go to the designated polling station and prove your identity (driving licence, passport, ID-card) before being allowed to vote.

Not everybody might have a driving licence or a passport but in our country everybody can get a photo ID-card for €5 or summat. I don’t know the price exactly but it’s about a pint or two of beer. I’ve never had one, I’ve always used my driving licence as ID. Also, I always make sure I have a valid passport. Just in case I have to travel somewhere. It’s an expenditure, €50 over 5 years or something.

Anyway, no-one is allowed to vote without proper ID in my country. No dodgy postal votes. Our electoral rolls are centrally held. kind of “big brotherish”, but we think the British system is horrific, it seems so open to all kinds of abuse, especially the postal vote. Maybe you think your system is just fine?